Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
Bob Blacka (KG2RU)
on
January 24, 2005
View comments about this article!
Many articles have been written by hams explaining the difficulty of finding a home that is free of CC&R's that prevent the use of outside antennas. I now find myself in the situation of having to relocate and it occurred to me that it would be a great help if there was a website I could visit to find out which areas of the state were "Ham Friendly" and which were "Ham Un-Friendly". This is where eHam comes in.
Why not have a new section in eHam kind of like the Product Reviews section where hams could enter their opinions on the "friendliness" of the areas they live in. The first level could be STATE, followed by COUNTY, then CITY or subdivision.
This new forum could be structured just like the product reviews already on eHam. This would be of enormous help to hams looking to relocate. It could be called something like "Relocation Info for Hams" or whatever.
What do you think? Would you use it?
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KT0DD on January 24, 2005
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It's sad that this country is becoming so fractionalized and discriminatory towards hams, but I think this is a great idea. It would make it easier for a ham who has to move somewhere to be able to get an idea of whether there's going to be alot of hassle or not. 73
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KB9YUR on January 24, 2005
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I think it's a great idea as well. It might a good idea to actually have three catagories of
listings:
A: Totally 100% Ham Friendly (No agreements, permits, restrictions of anykind, etc.)
B: Partially Ham Friendly (Some restrictions on antenna heights, other issues, HT's ok)
C: Totally 100% Non Ham Friendly (No antenna's of anykind, not even indoors, no HT's)
The database could be searched by state, city and/or zipcode and also possibly list
in those areas that are Ham Friendly (totally or partially) those Hams who are willing to
give advice, pointers and share their experiences with others.
Here in Berwyn, IL (EN61), I've had absolutely no problems with putting up antennas
of anykind.
George ...
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K3PRN on January 24, 2005
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Yes, this would be a great idea to have a list or forum for Ham-Friendly communities. I am currently looking for a home in which I can install my 48' tower and other antennas.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K3ZE on January 24, 2005
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How about allowing real estate agents who are Hams to list there names, area of operation, phone numbers, e-mail and agency? Ham/real estate agents should have the inside track on what neighborhoods have restrictions and those that do not and the local city or county requirements. In addition, he/she would know the needs of the Ham as far as adequate house wiring, space for a shack, area topography, clear vs. wooded lots, etc.
73 Al K3ZE
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N0IU on January 24, 2005
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There is a fundamental problem with this. Several years ago my wife an I bought the "ideal" piece of property. It is in a small subdivision (only 15 homes) all on 3 acre lots in a somewhat rural part of the county. The word "antenna" is not even mentioned in the CC&Rs. Having moved there from a fairly typical suburban lot, my primary HF antenna was a Cushcraft R7 vertical. Just to be on the safe side, I asked the president of the HOA if it be OK to put up my antenna and also a wire antenna (a 270' Carolina windom) between some trees. When asked if this would cause any interference with their TV, I said that I would take reasonable measures to filter out RFI and that if there were any problems, that any one of my neighbors should feel free to call me.
For about a year I operated primarily on CW on weekend mornings, but once in a while I would operate in the evening during the week or participate in a contest. I never received a single telephone call from any neighbor so this left me to assume (a VERY dangerous thing to do!) that no one was being bothered by my station. The one day the president and vice president of the HOA knocked on my door with a petition that had been signed by the other 14 homeowners. They had all agreed to change the CC&R so that ALL outdoor antennae, except for satellite dishes 24" in diameter or less, would be prohibited. I was shocked! Obviously I did not sign it but it clearly had a majority. I did, however, ask the president what she called her father's father to which she responded, "Grandfather" to which I informed her that this did not affect my existing antennas and all it meant was that I could not put up any new ones.
The bottom line here folks is that even though you move into a place with no prohibitions against antennas, this does not mean that people can't change their mind! Hopefully, PRB-1 will be extended to apply to private land use contracts one day soon.
As a side note to all this, one of the other residents took part in a local emergency preparedness class with the local police department. The class was taught by the department's emergency management coordinator who also happens to be a ham. Of course he extolled the virtues of ham radio to the group and even encouraged them to get involved. At the next HOA meeting, she reported back to the group about how crucial ham radio could be in times of disaster then the president of the HOA said, "Since Scott is a ham, we can all go over to his house if there is a disaster!" Deep inside, I felt like telling them all to *&%# off, but someone had to be the adult so I just nodded my head politely and asked that they all wipe their feet before coming in.
de Scott NØIU
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by SFD301 on January 24, 2005
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>>>>>>It's sad that this country is becoming so fractionalized and discriminatory towards hams,<<<<<
I don't have this problem here, and I feel for the hams that do, however is it a feeling toward the ham or the equiptment? Strip it all away and I think it's the unsightly equiptment. I know when I move from the city to the burbs, into a nice new home, with all underground utilities and such, large towers, antennas, and wires would not be my first choice.
I'm not against them, just that if I choose that community then I would know going in what the rules are. I'm new to the hobby, but have already compromised with the xly on the 2m/70cm vertical in the attic, and my 6m loop out back. She wants nothing, and I want the tower and all....lol...i think wires in the tress are my next steps.
Great idea on the forum!
kc2nmx
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by K5UJ on January 24, 2005
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<<<Several years ago my wife an I bought the "ideal" piece of property. It is in a small subdivision (only 15 homes) all on 3 acre lots in a somewhat rural part of the county. The word "antenna" is not even mentioned in the CC&Rs.>>>
That was mistake no. 1. If there are any CC&Rs at all, don't buy. If there are CC&Rs then there is a HOA. If there is a HOA, there are lawyers and, property nazis and their followers who will all cause you way too many headaches as you found out.
<<<Having moved there from a fairly typical suburban lot, my primary HF antenna was a Cushcraft R7 vertical. Just to be on the safe side, I asked the president of the HOA>>>
Mistake no. 2. Never ask anyone if it is okay for you to put up an antenna. It's none of their business. Check the municipal code--if what you want to do is in conformance with that, just put it up. Asking any private citizen if it is okay for you to do whatever with YOUR property is tanamount to ceding control of your property and your rights as a property owner to someone else.
The eham real estate rating forum sounds like a good idea and worth a try at least.
Generally, any new development is bad news. As a rule of thumb, buy either in old areas in towns and city neighborhoods that are not part of a planned development, or locate out in the sticks somewhere not on or near any planned development.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W7AIT on January 24, 2005
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Having moved a number of times, I take the responsibility to ask if the area allows ham antennas and has CC&R's /HOA BEFORE considering a purchase.
Its not the real estate agents responsbility to provide this information up front but it is their responsibility and the sellers responsibility to fully disclose when asked prior to completeing the sale. Its cavet emptor, you don't ask in advance, they aren't obligated to tell. (Same goes for power line noise, nearby power lines and insert BPL here too).
As far as specific areas as a data base for such - might be helpful but how would it be updated and kept current?
One can tell if they're going to have trouble with a potential real estate deal and ham antennas if there is any HOA.
CC&R's: CC&R's exist on most property and ranges from the simple 1 pager adressing mineral rights saying nothing about antennas and such to the 50 page detailed CC&R / HOA documents spelling out everything including leaving your garbage can out over night, or parking your car in the driveway, to not allowing ham antennas. Again, it's the purchasers responsibility to review these documents to make sure antennas are allowed before making the purchase.
Generally I've found ANY NEW developments have HOA's and thus restrictions against antennas. Any tract newer than about 1978 will have HOA's and thus restrictions against antennas.
Its unfortunate, but I've noticed that ham antennas are allowed in the older (shabbier) neighborhoods, but not in the new or newer neighborhoods. Any new neighborhood with a well manicured look will generally not allow antennas. Any neighborhood where three cars are parked in the grass lawn and the boat or RV is parked next to the house generally allows ham antennas. Same goes for the desert southwest - if its a gated desert community, forget the antennas. If its out in unincorporated desert - dirt roads, septic, well water, etc, then antennas are generally ok.
Its a sad state of freedom. If we want the freedom of putting up our antennas, we generally have to accept living in a shabbier neighborhood, unless of course you are rich and can afford expensive, exclusive custom real estate on your own property where no CC&R or HOA exist.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WN3R on January 24, 2005
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One place NOT to come is MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MD. While the county is ham friendly, the neighbors generally are not. One story to follow is the one about John Evans, N3HBX. John bought 44 acres in "rural" Montgomery County for just over $1,000,000. The county approved his plan for 4 towers and the neighbors are going nuts. Lots of press coverage, the ARRL is involved, and John has spent over $28,000 (last reported) in legal fees. Most neighbors have yard signs with a phone number looking for support in taking the towers down. John won the first court battle. Not sure what the future holds.
After Montgomery County rightly asked me to remove my wire antennas from THEIR trees behind my home, I bought 10 acres on top of a mountain in Frederick County Maryland. Towers are a permitted use up there as you might expect.
Local counties often sell large tracts of land for pennies on the dollar in tax sales. You can find more info at www.taxsale.com.
Good luck.
Dick, WN3R
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W7WV on January 24, 2005
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I have to agree with W7AIT. If there is an HOA or CCRs on the property, don’t buy it if you ever want to put up antennas. My kids live in the city and have CCRs and HOAs and they even tell them when to mow their lawns and weed. And they seem to change the rules anytime they want to. They even sent my daughter a letter for putting a DTV dish on her back fence which did not meet with the mounting requirements. The only problem was that it was not her dish, it was the neighbor’s.
When I got my Novice Ticket in the 1970s, my suburb located home was built in 1948 before HOAs came into being. I had nothing but problems with the neighbors about the “looks” of my antennas. This was part of the reason I gave up my license and did not renew.
When I retired and decided to get back into the hobby, I had no idea what kind of problems I was going to have putting a simple dipole up on my roof using a TV antenna and mast for the center support. There was nothing in the contract lease in the mobile home park we had moved into, but the landlord had a catch all that stated anything I put up outside must be approved. I bluffed her and kept the antenna, but nothing else was going to be added as long as I lived there.
When I moved the first thing I did was check with the county where I was going to live about any restrictions and what would be needed to put up a tower and beam. Then when I purchased the property from a private individual, I made sure there was no HOA or CCRs of any kind on the property.
The bottom line here seems to be that most utilities today are being installed underground as they are seen as unsightly. Our antennas are only a thing of beauty to us for what they will do for us. Let’s face it, most of them are ugly to the public.
The guy that sold me this property is complaining that when prospective buyers look at the acre next to me they balk at purchase because of the T-6 I have sitting at 44’ that they will look at. I do have 3 other antennas on the property as well.
If the property gets cheap enough maybe I will buy it. More antennas??
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W2EJG on January 24, 2005
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You have struck the nerve, which will help the most in obtaining reasonable access to useable antennae. Forget the politicians, they just listen to the loudest whiners. The right approach is to follow the money.
Send letters to all local Real Estate agencies asking for a listing of all the CC&R communities in the area. Write to the Boards of those communities, asking for a copy of the deed restrictions. Tell them you are interested in the community but only if it is not too restrictive.
Then do the groundwork. Have the local Clubs take a handheld to the gate of each community and attempt to access the local repeater. DOCUMENT EVERY STEP Then notify the municipality, the Real Estate people and the communities that your ability to provide communications in an emergency (Hurricane, tornado, tsunami etc.) is substantially impaired by the inability to put up decent antennae. Ask the municipality and the Real Estate people to notify the communities of this condition. Wouldn’t hurt to let the local TV stations in on this. “Local residents in peril, story at 6” deal.
When the Real Estate people find that their ability to do deals is somewhat hampered and they are required to notify all interested sellers of this problem, they will pressure the CC&R guys to take another hard look.
The next step would be a statewide website, preferably sponsored by the Clubs for reasonably updated info on all the communities. “Here’s a friendly community”
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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I encourage the idea of a Ham Friendly Communities Listing for a few reasons. Some may have to read this entire post though to realize that for a couple of reasons the idea makes me chuckle.
1) Since Home Owners Associations (HOA’s) have become firmly entrenched over the last couple decades, the politics that come to bear on “unsightly antennas” are dogged. It would be good for Ham’s to be seen ‘playing the political game!
2) The idea of Ham’s inducing interference to neighbors (as one post suggested) is pretty much specious. I will elaborate on this subject to further follow.
3) On the matter of interference, what about when most homes in this Ham Friendly Community have 70 foot towers, KT-34’s, and Henry 2K5’s. I think the “interference” will be in the form of very local QRM.
More seriously on the matter of RFI, and TVI type interference, I am really annoyed when I hear Ham’s take a defensive posture on this. If you want to be defensive, engineer your station well, and you can politely tell the neighbors the problem is theirs, and not your concern.
Consider the types of interference that are prevalent that your neighbors would be concerned about. I will list them in order of most likely, to least likely -- and list their cures.
1) Audio Rectification -- to telephones and other audio devices.
The fix for this is “common mode choke filtering” ON AND ASSOCIATED WITH THE AUDIO DEVICE. Audio devices are poorly designed if they detect RF!
2) Television Interference or TVI. This can take a couple of forms,
A) Harmonic interception by the TV receiver, typical bands of concern are 10 and 20 Meters
The cure is adequate filtering on BOTH the TV receiver, and the Amateur Transmitter. Most Low Pass Filters for Ham’s are CRAP, but, some are quite good. Put a good low pass filter on your transmitter, calculate the amount of harmonic attenuation (as listed by the manufactures spec’s) and thereby know your harmonic output level (those with big amplifiers should take note).
The person who is experiencing the trouble with TVI should have a good High Pass Filter on their TV. Nearly all High Pass Filters I have seen are junk. R.L. Drake makes a good filter, as does a company called Industrial Communications Engineers (I.C.E.). There may be more companies of high quality High Pass Filters but, they are extremely rare.
B) Common Mode TVI, that takes place as the interfering signal ‘rides in’ on the outside of the shielded 75 Ohm cable to the TV receiver. This sort of interference is typical with Cable TV Systems.
The fix for this is common mode choke filters at the TV set cable tuner.
C) Interference to Cable TV Systems from various VHF Ham frequencies.
Cable companies are allowed to use any frequency they desire (and often use Ham frequencies) with the proviso that their signals be contained within the cable system. Many ‘leaks’ to cable system can occur, and this problem can be hard to find and fix. The good news is, fixing the problem is the OBLIGATION of the cable TV company!
3) Interference to other consumer devices such as Infrared switched lighting, or electrically opened garage doors.
This is almost always the fault of the complainant’s device installation. Common mode filtering is the cure. Where the Ham runs higher power (I.e. an amplifier) the problem is more likely but, the fault still lies within the installation of the consumer device.
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Back to the overall idea of Ham’s within any community though, and the usual reasons for the negative consideration by local governments. The main reason for most tower and antenna restrictions is aesthetic. Cities or community associations don’t primarily guard against RFI or TVI -- they don’t like the way Ham antennas look!
Most communities follow a standard set of rulings on antenna installations. 35 foot maximum heights seem to be popular in many communities. Ham’s should always look at and address appropriate “Launch Angel” and radiation patterns for their intended antennas. As an example, a 20 Meter Yagi should always be mounted at at least 70 feet etc.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K0BG on January 24, 2005
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With my tongue in my cheek....
Wouldn't it be nice if every realtor was an amateur? My wasn't, but she knew exactly what I was looking for. There were some restrictions on my property, but they allowed TV antennas and that was my in. A quick chat with the builder and the developer, and I was in like Flynn. Too bad is isn't always this simple.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W9WHE-II on January 24, 2005
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Good idea, but is it workable?
If you put lots of hams in close proximity, you create new problems. Suppose a ham that enjoys running 100 watts into a beam moves into this very attractive subdivision. What do you think his 1500 watts (multipled by his 6dBd antenna)will do to your receiver?
While this may be good in theory, it may not be so practicle. Would we be better off carving out some Federal protection for towers, say up to 50 feet?
W9WHE
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KT0DD on January 24, 2005
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The whole concept of HOA's is communistic, and it's too bad that our constitution is just a fancy museum piece with no teeth anymore that gives us little defense. Most if not all county ordinances already have laws against blights such as bunches of used cars in a yard, unmowed fields get you a notice from the fire dept. etc., so the idea that a ham tower will lower property values is a reach of the imagination at best. And most people that will put up enough towers to possibly be an eyesore to someone usually are rich enough to buy far enough away from other people for this.
It all boils down to the fact that many people in our society have a feeling of powerlessness, and if a cause arises that gives someone power & control over someone or something, they jump on the bandwagon with both feet. It's pathetic that so many are so insecure. 73
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KO1D on January 24, 2005
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A more valuable resource might be a single source database of State laws that relate to PRB-1. For example, if I recall, and I could be wrong, someone told me that Virginia State law has some very ham friendly wording regarding CCRs and antennas, under certain conditions. State laws can come in quite handy in trumping snobbish prudes who are in HOAs.
With regards to the Montgomery, MD case, you should mention that while he has the right to set up the antennas, all 4 were over 200ft tall. That subtle part is where even some hams I know start scratching out heads and saying...um...excessive? (If that doesn't get me kicked around nothing will!) That being said, I would love to just have one court case say CCRs are illegal. Neighbors with nothing else to do but boss complete strangers around should find something else to complain about in another locality. Ahh the dreams...
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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I don't know how 6 dB's of gain provided for a 100 Watt output provides 1500 Watts ERP.
I think you will find that 100 Watts plus 6 dB's equals 400 Watts ERP
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W2DUG on January 24, 2005
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> C: Totally 100% Non Ham Friendly (No antenna's of anykind, not even indoors, no HT's)
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Are there actually places that restrict indoor antennas and HTs? If so, how is even possible to enforce that? What would be the reason for restricting them in the first place? I thought the problem was really just limited to controlling the cosmetic appearance of the homes.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KF7MT on January 24, 2005
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Take a look at Homes4hams.com The wheel may have already been invented. hihi
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K7PEH on January 24, 2005
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Great Idea -- so, who is going to take the lead on this? Maybe Eham needs a volunteer coordinator.
My house, and the neighborhood I live, were built in 1976. A CCR exists but there is no HOA. I have a Traffie mini-beam on a TV mast on the roof of my house plus an 80 meter dipole stretched between some trees but is virtually invisible from the street. I consider myself lucky that I can do that but I am already planning that my next domicile will be at least 10 acres with zero HOA and almost non-existant CCR.
But, I have one other fortunate thing about my neighborhood. One neighbor not far away has a 3-acre plot of land and he moved in and put up his antennas before anyone else lived in the area (35 years ago). He has three towers (oh how I envy his QTH). One tower is about 125 feet with a 6-element Yagi, another tower is about 75 feet with a beam, and the third tower at about 40 feet has a vertical. If anyone is going to complain, they will complain about him and he said that no one has ever complained to him about his antennas in the 35 years he has lived there.
So, it is not all bad. By the way, in the Satellite photos of the neighborhood, you can pick out two of his antennas!
phil
K7PEH
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W9WHE-II on January 24, 2005
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"The whole concept of HOA's is communistic, and it's too bad that our constitution is just a fancy museum piece with no teeth anymore that gives us little defense"
Wow. Another vitcim of public schools!
The constitution (more specifically the Bill of rights) was crafted to protect people from the GOVERNMENT. HOAs and CC&Rs are PRIVATE restrictions. The constitution was never intended to protect people from their own PRIVATE contracts.
W9WHE
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KD5IVP on January 24, 2005
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Good idea with a possible downside. If your neighbor happens to type their development's name into Google, Eham's new fourm might just pop up.
"Hey look honey....our neighborhood's been singled out for big ugly CB radio towers!! Over my dead body!" And the brush fires start.
Just a thought ;-)
Paul, KD5IVP
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KO1D on January 24, 2005
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Great site and plenty of realtor's in my area. Hmm....now to have the cash....
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KT0DD on January 24, 2005
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Quote:"Wow. Another vitcim of public schools!
The constitution (more specifically the Bill of rights) was crafted to protect people from the GOVERNMENT. HOAs and CC&Rs are PRIVATE restrictions. The constitution was never intended to protect people from their own PRIVATE contracts"
W9WHE once again crosses the line between genius and insanity...
If there is a difference between private and public, then why is the govt working so hard to invade and take away our liberties with things like the Patriot act, and why is there always some sort of congressional / government investigation into the actions of private corporations, organizations or institutions?
Although seldom made public (unless 60 minutes, Dateline or someone else gets lucky with a leak) The corporate world makes more decisions (that we don't know about until it's too late) on the course of this country, than are ever made in the White House or Pentagon, (Those decisions are corporate influenced. Just look at all the clandestine corporate meetings that take place all over the world) Halliburtion, Raytheon & others are doing so well in Iraq! Have you watched their stocks lately?
The line between private and public is at best blurred severely, and more likely has been erased altogether. The greedy & powerful are completely out of touch with the common person.
The preamble to the constitution of EVERYONE having the inalienable right of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness means nothing to anyone but the wealthy in todays capitalist world.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WW0H on January 24, 2005
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I've thought about this alot in recent years, especially as I near retirement. Wherever it is, being able to raise a tower and put up antennae is a major concern for me.
I've had a dream of a place called "Ham-ton", a gated community with a central facility that would include, among other things, a cafe/restaurant, fitness equipment and swimming pool, and a "club" station. The dream here is that while we all enjoy radio, who can afford to do all that is possible? I see this club station as having the latest gear, making it possible for all residents of Hamton to try out all modes, all bands (control operator present if needed), etc. What a dream!
My problem has been that they keep giving my Powerball Lottery winnings to someone else - or this would be reality (I would hope).
Anyone else have such a dream? If so, just where should "Hamton" be built?
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA1RNE on January 24, 2005
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Instead of a new forum of Ham-Friendly Communities, how about one that concentrates on "Low Profile" antennas?
Low Profile antenna designs have several advantages, especially for folks who don't have covenants to deal with.
Afterall, some hams have SC&R to deal with, otherwise known as Spousal Conditions and Restrictions......
73, Chris
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on January 24, 2005
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Welcome to Grande Prairie Texas. Learnt the hardway that just becuase TODAY there is no HOA or antenna restrictions in an area does not mean that the local residents can't all rally against you and start one..
of course my existing antennas was grandfathered but NO improvements can be made to them...
The cost to fight this was estimated at 11,000 dollars...
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Ah, life in the Ham(p)ton’s !
First I would suggest that you read a book written by the psychologist B.F. Skinner, “Walden Two”. Then start shopping for land in Arizona.
Please tell me where you plan to locate, as I will be sure to keep my 10 acre purchase at least 60 miles away!
73! De John
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K7PEH on January 24, 2005
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Wow!
Sitting here at work in front of the computer I realize this incredible idea. I don't know why I did not think of it before.
The solution to all of this is to work for and accomplish what every other person secretly wants -- that is, to be classed as a minority. We can get ham radio operators classed as a sexual minority and thus reap the benefits of our big brother government who will go to all lengths to ensure our freedoms.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N6AYJ on January 24, 2005
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Out in the "sticks" where I live, (unincorporated area of El Dorado County, California, in the Sierra foothills) it is pretty ham-friendly. You can put up whatever you want, even a 200-ft. tower. In fact, we have the opposite problem: there is so little restriction on landowners' rights that people can, for example, keep a lot of junk cars on their property. The 5-acre parcels for sale are usually called "ranchettes". Some mortgage companies don't like to loan money on them because one guy with a junkyard on his land can bring down the value of other peoples' property.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KB1JTE on January 24, 2005
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I agree with most of the posts here about buyer beware of what Property Sellers, Residential Developments and Real Estate brokers, Do Not know or Do Not tell you about what is allowed or not allowed on the prospective property you wish to purchase. Even if you ask, the Seller and Real Estate agent or broker surely do not want to deal with any issues that may delay selling the property. The Seller and Broker want to get their price / commission and move on. The way to really get the more reliable information is talk to the town / city code enforcement or building permit officials; as they make that decision. Do you get a tower permit or not; how high, etc. Also, I have found that legally even with a title attorney and good title search not all information about restrictive covenants are required to be carried forward in the most recent deed ! Yes, legally once something is converyed or restricted it cannot be taken out unless the town, courts or original person converying that restriction is still the controlling person in a development.
The main problem is the public as a whole is not well informed about what amateur radio operators due or what is necessary to operate with a good signal (towers / antennas). Public officials know even less, as in the law of large numbers most homeowners / buyers / sellers are not licensed ham operators.
Ham radio clubs and individual licensed ham operators need to spend more time on public education, 4 or 5 events per/year are not enough any more. Most people do not sit still long enough to get this information.
Its the old issue of fear of the known and why do we need to make room for it, etc.
When people see first hand what amateur radio is and how it can be an asset to the town / city or protecting them in emergencies; that in many cases makes it more tolerable. The time to do that is not when you are looking to buy that prime lot for your antenna farm.
I feel its worth the time and effort but its hard to get qualifying information. That's just my opinion.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Chris, I suggest that all of your intended antennas be installed under-ground. This will probably cure any Ham difficulties.
You can do this most effectively the next time you install a new lawn. After the old grass has been killed off etc, wires or other manufactured antennas can be buried several inches below ground, covered over, and sod or seed can be planted.
If wife or other problems still persist, use ONLY QRP power levels!
I hope such (light) engineering ideas are helpful to the Ham community at large!
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N0IU on January 24, 2005
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K5UJ Wrote:
“That was mistake no. 1. If there are any CC&Rs at all, don't buy.”
That is a wonderful fantasy. Most of us do not have the luxury of being able to select a home based solely on a hobby. We have to consider other things like our budget, proximity to work (unless you are retired or work from home), if you have children at home, pets, etc.
“Mistake no. 2. Never ask anyone if it is okay for you to put up an antenna.”
PLEASE, I implore the rest of you to NOT follow this one man’s advice. How many of you would invest thousands of dollars on a tower and beams and having a base poured without checking with your neighbors even if there are no restrictions unless you do live “out in the sticks”? Asking them is not ceding control of your property or rights to someone else. Its called being a good neighbor.
Sometimes we just don’t have a choice and we have to make our choices and do the best we can. I am going to tell my wife that we are moving to St. Charles, Illinois so we can live next door to K5UJ where we don’t have to be a good neighbor.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on January 24, 2005
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CC&Rs have to go, and it doesn't matter their wording.
That restrictive covenants don't even mention the word "antenna" means nothing, since causing any problems to anyone is generally covered under the "disturbing the peace" clause, which is painted with a very broad brush. Also, any antenna can be considered an appurtenance that requires approval by an Architectural Committee or similar prior to installation -- those clauses are also painted with very broad brushes.
Any covenant is one too many, and I certainly won't spend a dime on such property.
Good news is, there are covenant-free properties *everywhere.* You just have to take the time to find them, which means avoiding looking at *any* covenant-restricted properties, as even looking at them is a waste of time.
HOAs and covenants will not prevent homeowners from letting junk cars pile up on their properties, any more than municipal ordinance will. It's all a matter of enforcement. I'd rather have police and judges enforce stuff than untrained civilians.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KT0DD on January 24, 2005
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Quote:
"I'd rather have police and judges enforce stuff than untrained civilians."
Bravo! You put it the best of anyone so far.
Nosey Neighbors in HOA's are nothing but wannabe vigilanties! 73.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC0SHZ on January 24, 2005
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>>>>don't have this problem here, and I feel for the hams that do, however is it a feeling toward the ham or the equiptment? Strip it all away and I think it's the unsightly equiptment. I know when I move from the city to the burbs, into a nice new home, with all underground utilities and such, large towers, antennas, and wires would not be my first choice.
Nicely put. Come on guys, we all brag about being able to open repeaters from 50 miles away on our HT and brag about setting watt/mile records on QRP, neither of these requires 200 foot tall 20 foot wide log periodics.
We need to say cheers to the folks that can put these antennas up, and hope they have fun with them. We should be viewing this as a challenge to keep our skills sharp. If a tornado or hailstorm hits my place, a big tower is just going to be part of the debris. A wire that can be thrown up is going to part of the rescue. So we can't have big towers, we can still have fun, and we can still go for the personal achievements.
Once I get my General, I am going to start work on a river wire antenna. Part of the game for me is figuring out how to build non-traditional radios and antennas. Would I like to have a big antenna rig to test off of? Sure. Will it break my heart not to have one? Nope, along as there is plenty of river access, and good shallow take off angles, I will be fine.
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Montgomery County, MD Case
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by WN3R on January 24, 2005
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Yes there are 4 guyed towers each just under 200 feet to avoid FAA restrictions. This is going to be a contest station for sure. I drove by the other day to see one tower populated. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I certainly beheld! It was a thing of beauty.
At my new QTH on the mountain, my lot is so wooded that I must install a self supporting tower in order to preserve the trees. Based on the required set back of 1:1, the 120 foot tower cannot even be used as a landmark for directions to the house. I sure hope it can be seen from my golf course 4 miles away in the valley.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Arrrrrgh! Here are my serious thoughts on the antenna system that I plan to install at my retirement home at the center of 10 acres of land. For those who are wedded to QRP (not that I’m an A-hole user of QRO) and minimalist antennas -- more power (pun fully intended) to ya! Have fun with the RFI too!
My grand plan includes four 50 foot tall telephone poles, and a 90 foot motorized crank-up tower in the center. Imagine looking down on the letter “X”. The tower goes at the center of the “X”, and each telephone pole is installed at the tip points of the X. The square dimensions of the telephone pole installations will be 150 feet per side. This will allow me to put up any wire antenna that I imagine I will ever want, and VHF stuff up on the tower.
Cities and HOA’s go F yourselves!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W9WHE-II on January 24, 2005
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KT0DD writes:
"Although seldom made public (unless 60 minutes, Dateline or someone else gets lucky with a leak) The corporate world makes more decisions (that we don't know about until it's too late) on the course of this country, than are ever made in the White House or Pentagon, (Those decisions are corporate influenced. Just look at all the clandestine corporate meetings that take place all over the world) Halliburtion, Raytheon & others are doing so well in Iraq".
Does somebody need another layer of tinfoil under his hat?
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by HAMDUDE on January 24, 2005
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This is a great idea. In fact this brings to mind certain communities near me that are built specifically for R/C flyers who also face the problem of finding a place to enjoy their hobby. Whole developments built with R/C flyers in mind that include an airfield right behind the properties for the residents to enjoy. Perhaps some wealthy hams could pool their resources and build ham radio friendly developments that have large back yards for modest tower installations? Of course, you may encounter other problems with too many stations too close together and this would make operating rather difficult. What you would gain by having a tower friendly development would be pretty useless if you had 25 towers all within line of sight causing RF interference to each other. Then again, hams being as resourceful as they are probably could work this out among themselves without the use of HOA types who act like nazi`s.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KO1D on January 24, 2005
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Well if you did this here are some points:
1) HOA would REQUIRE all residents to have a license.
2) One House with 10 acres of land would be the DC to Daylight club station.
3) All residents would be limited to VHF/UHF at home stations for the simplex nets.
4) Neighbors would not allow BPL, but would be required to have 802.11b or better wireless internet capabilities.
4a) 802.11b or better site would be on the main club tower.
4b) Internet access would be the cost for dues in the HOA.
5) Each resident would have to do at least 2 days a year sorting and responding to QSL cards.
6) At least 25% of the residents would have to be electrical engineers, 25% under age 50 so they can climb the towers, and the other 50% with HF privledges so someone can always play control op on 20m.
:)
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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The hell if I want other Ham's near me on VHF and above! I don't care if they are only using their cute little VX-1's. I run preamps on my transverters. I don't want anybody beating up my Front-ends with RF!
The idea of the Model R/C guys might make sense. Those guys have investments that are worth them “waiting to use the channel” if one guy has to wait for another guy to finish flying his plane.
This Ham Community thing would simply not work! We would become our own enemies. Geez Louise!
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N0IU on January 24, 2005
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I have seen terms such as "property Nazis" and comments like, "Gee I am sure glad all the decisions regarding my life are handled by the government". Didn't you folks pay attention in history class? There used to be a place just like this called Germany during World War II. Personally, I am glad there are non-professional politicians out there. There are still places like that called China and Cuba where you don't have those annoying little problems of worrying about amateur politicians making laws that affect you. And one contributor called CC&Rs communistic??? Be thankful you live in America!
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KK9H on January 24, 2005
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I am currently the Village President (mayor) of Northfield, IL. I am very happy to report that there is at least one Ham-Friendly community, Northfield. We are a suburb of Chicago with a population of about 5300. Amateur Radio operators with valid licenses are permitted to install antenna towers up to 70 feet here.
73, Don KK9H
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Don, can I put up five such towers? I want to install, Yagi's Sturba Curtains, Rhombic and Half-rhombic antennas etc.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N3AIU on January 24, 2005
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The comments I've seen about making sure your realtor knows about your antenna desires is a good one. My realtor in Flagstaff, AZ worked with me to get me property with minimal antenna restrictions. She knew who to call in city/county government, etc.
73, Nick N3AIU
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N3AIU on January 24, 2005
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Also, it helps to be the president of the HOA. In addition to my home in Arizona, I have a Condo in CO. I was shanghaied into being the HOA president, since no one else wanted the job (unusual as far as HOAs go). I put up a somewhat stealthy 160m dipole, and I'm very popular with people who want to put up satellite dishes on the roof.
73, Nick N3AIU
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K4JF on January 24, 2005
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Well, I have 2 acres of hilltop in the 'burbs, with no restrictions, a tower, and wires in the trees, near what is quite probably the most culturally rich city of its size in America. Very much a sophisticated and international community. And I'll be selling in about 2 years. Anybody retiring and interested in moving to the Sunny South?
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N1EY on January 24, 2005
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I don't think most of the areas in
my vicinity have any CCRS. I had
never heard of the concept until
I took my test.
Is anyone familiar with CCRS in
the Southeastern MA area? I would
like to avoid the issue entirely.
Thanks
BIll
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N1EY on January 24, 2005
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I don't think most of the areas in
my vicinity have any CCRS. I had
never heard of the concept until
I took my test.
Is anyone familiar with CCRS in
the Southeastern MA area? I would
like to avoid the issue entirely.
Thanks
BIll
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N1EY on January 24, 2005
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:Sometimes we just don’t have a choice and we have to
:make our choices and do the best we can. I am going to
:tell my wife that we are moving to St. Charles,
:Illinois so we can live next door to K5UJ where we
:don’t have to be a good neighbor.
Umm, I think that he has some experience in
litigating the matter. I think that you should
take stock in what K5UJ says. You give power
to someone when you ask. IF they say no, the
"no" shall hunt you afterwards. You might favor
a better chance to proceed without contact
then a negative contact.
I don't think these CCRS are everywhere. I haven't
seen them in my immediate area. I am aware of
some places in Metrowest of Boston. They don't
allow swimming pools or laundry lines. What is
wrong with a swimming pool? OR a Laundry line?
The writers of these restrictions are the same
people that fly to Canada to protest tar oil
projects. ;)
BIll
Bill
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by G3SEA on January 24, 2005
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Unfortunately in these times one " cannot always have your cake and eat it " :(
It really boils down to your priorities.
Is your hobby more important than your ' dream home ' location ?
If so, are you ( and your family ) willing to accept a less desirable location in order to continue HF operation ?
My solution was to operate EchoLink or IRLP with an HT or a laptop.
Yes I miss HF but these modes are better than nothing as thousands of hams have found out.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K9ZF on January 24, 2005
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The new forum idea sounds great!
73
Dan
--
K9ZF /R no budget Rover ***QRP-l #1269
Check out the Rover Resource Page at: <http://www.qsl.net/n9rla>
List Administrator for: InHam+grid-loc+ham-books
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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In the 'states', IRLP and Echolink will go away when the code requirement is eliminated. No one wants to deal with the hassles of "VOX" controlled radios, and the 'key-up' delays of linked repeater systems.
Echolink will vanish, with the rest of Ham radio soon to follow!
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by NY7Q on January 24, 2005
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I have lived in several states. The State of IDAHO is the land of ham haters, HOA lovers. I have heard it stated by the local realestate attorney, "the hell with hams"...Sadly, there is a HOA in ALL subdivision in SW Idaho, and there is no place to purchase a decent home without going into a HOA community. I was given two days to take down my stealth wire antennas, and a vertical recently. Due to many complaints was the reason. I canvassed the entire 85 houses in the subdivision, and NOT ONE person was against my antennas. It turned out that the HOA president/manager is against them. So,,what to do??
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on January 24, 2005
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N1EY, CC&Rs prevail in *many* places, including SE MA. Check out any "new" housing being developed on Cape Cod, see what you find. Even places where most homes are older and new construction starts are very limited, like Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard, can and do have CC&Rs.
However, as common as these restrictions are, there is housing and land available *everywhere* without deed restrictions. You just have to find it.
CC&Rs are so common that many realtors figure they're just normal and standard, and won't mention anything about them unless asked -- and even then, they often don't know the facts, so you have to find for yourself whether a property has restrictive covenants or not.
If a subdivision or neighborhood has a "Homeowners Association," there's a strong chance it also has restrictive covenants.
G3SEA, it's not just a matter of giving up great antenna systems in exchange for a better place to live. On the contrary. Restrictive covenants, at least here in the States, usually restrict LOTS of things (antennas being just one, and often not nearly them most important one), including things we should be able to take for granted as unrestricted, such as the color one is allowed to paint one's own home, or the type of letterbox one is allowed to have in front of that home. Or the ability to park one's car in one's own driveway. Or how tall the rose bushes in one's garden are allowed to grow...and on, and on, and on.
And also on the contrary, places having restrictive covenants are not better places to live. It's often just the opposite. The most wealthy neighborhoods in America do not have restrictive covenants.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on January 24, 2005
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NY7Q: Larry, per your bio, you're retiring from ham radio and moving to Missouri.
I'm sorry to hear that! If "CC&Rs" are to blame for your choice, you could have made other choices.
As I've published many times before, it never pays to *look* at properties or subdivisions having CC&Rs, because that's a sure way to "figure" that they all do -- and they don't.
I know a lot of hams in southern ID who have towers and are very active on all bands. They chose, evidently, to live in places that you didn't choose.
Interestingly, regarding Missouri: I think a nice area is the Ozarks of southwestern MO, and because the cost of living there is very low (compared with here!), I considered investing in a home there now, to retire to maybe in 10-12 years from now. I found that almost all construction in the area, although widely detached homes not in subdivisions at all, and almost all on 3 acres of property per home, have CC&Rs. They won't even let you put a boundary fence around your property, or install a basketball court. So much for ever settling there, I ruled it out, permanently.
I can't see investing anything in property I won't enjoy. The basketball goal thing really did it for me, I like playing basketball at home. (And the goal posts make good anchor points for inverted vees...)
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KT0DD on January 24, 2005
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Quote:
"Does somebody need another layer of tinfoil under his hat?"
Didn't you hear? Tin Foil doesn't work anymore! The Vogons (in cooperation with General Dynamics) are pumping a new mind control wave thru the milstar system that penetrates anything. Obviously you haven't been properly protected for awhile now anyway or you wouldn't display such mindless drivel in your posts.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by OTT on January 24, 2005
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Hi guys...
Bought a 120 year old house 20 years ago and it came with "restrictions" too...
No "bone boiling", "soap making" or the "keeping of animals of offensive character"...
If for some reason I wanted to do "bone boiling" (whatever that is) I would have needed to get a home somewhere else...
Bet the "new" CC&R's done even mention "bone boiling" in these modern communities... a few days of bone boiling or soap making and they might be happy to let you have diple up...
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K1RFD on January 24, 2005
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"In the 'states', IRLP and Echolink will go away when the code requirement is eliminated. No one wants to deal with the hassles of "VOX" controlled radios, and the 'key-up' delays of linked repeater systems."
<g>
But note that about two-thirds of the 89,183 U.S. EchoLink users are General class or above...
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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But they won't let you have a double diple!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Hmmmmm, what about a dedicated Echolink on 50.125 MHz.
Do ya think anyone would have the patience to work 6 Meter DX that way? Na, I'll just get a VX5, and start calling CQ!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by NN6EE on January 24, 2005
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HMMMM???
I don't think that there is such a beast as "Ham Radio-Friendly Communities"!!!
Depending upon who one talks to or who one posts to on various Ham Radio websites there's always somebody who takes umbrage in what was said even if it was totally innocuous.
No wonder there's NO "Peace-on-Earth & Goodwill Towards All Men"!!!
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W6TH on January 24, 2005
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities? I am happy you asked.
Why not look into the Free State of New Hampshire.
I am sure you will find all the freedom that our forefathers have done for us.
This state believes in upkeeping the Constitution; framed in 1787, ratified in 1789, and will back you up on the Bill of Rights.
Should I ever run into the CC&R or the HOA, this will be my next move.
LIVE FREE OR DIE. God Bless America, the land of the Brave and the Free.
.: 73, W6TH.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K4JF on January 24, 2005
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^ I want some of what HE has been drinkin'!!!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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I think he was drink'n a Double Diple, I mean a Double Dickle -- on the rocks!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2005
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Due to many complaints was the reason. I canvassed the entire 85 houses in the subdivision, and NOT ONE person was against my antennas. It turned out that the HOA president/manager is against them. So,,what to do??
NY7Q,
Sorry but people like that pi***s me off. I am not a Lawyer but here is what you can do about it and there is not a damn thing anyone can do to change it.
If you decide that you suddenly don't want to be the local HOA doormat anymore then I would suggest you do the following:
1: Exercise your perfect legal right to install a TV antenna on your property. That's right. The FCC allows ANYONE to put up a TV antenna and it preempts all local and state laws, It EVEN preempts all HOA's and Private Covenant agreements!
In short all HOA's are strictly prohibited from restricting you from viewing local programming using a TV antenna located on your home, condo, or balcony. (more later)
Second - Find a structural engineer to certify the installation in case the jerk comes back with some crap about "community safety issues etc."
It will cost a few hundred bucks ,but it's worth it as the price of purchasing an HOA flame-suit will be a much more expensive option later on.
The engineer will arrive and provide you with a diagram of the installation. It will have an official state certification stamp on it. This will mean the entire installation is "safe" (At this point your local HOA Nazi doesn't have a leg to stand on. Simply put, HOA Nazi's are not qualified to dispute the decision of a state certified engineer, unless of course he is one himself.)
3rd - Cut off you cable TV service, or no..better yet you are allowed to keep it as a backup in case your new TV antenna you are about to install suddenly fails. Like perhaps when it suddenly becomes damaged and is detuned from a sudden burst of high winds and it suddenly malfunctions as a resonate 2m/440 receiving TV antenna. However, It might still function in this particualr instance for receiving those stronger local TV stations in your area. Also keep in mind that there are many "different" brands of TV antennas to choose from for your TV antenna installation.
Cable may be required for broadband Internet access anyways, but we don't always have to choose both services. We choose what services we want to pay for in our home. Not the HOA.
Now.... just a little side-note here: It is illegal for any HOA to dictate or "monopolize" which utility service you choose for your home. This includes the choices you make for such utility services as subscribing to a particular cable TV service or any particular Internet service provider you decide to use.
You also have the right NOT to subscribe to any cable TV or broadband service if you so choose. Quite frankly, it's none of their damn business either way.
In short, the utility services will fully support you on this decision. They want to make sure that there are no "monopolies" in any community that might affect "fair competition" laws. If you encounter one call them right away. Remember, utility providers have a helluva lot more money than we do and will fight tooth and nail for your right to choose their services. HOA Nazi's will be running all the way to the bankruptcy lawyers hiding their little tails behind them.
Now you are not going to actually be allowed to have an Amateur Radio antenna in use at your home. (Well, at least not yet!) but if you follow my advice, you WILL see that day coming.
I am not a Lawyer giving legal advice on the subject but I absolutely guarantee that you are not even going to "begin to imagine" the shocking expression displayed on this Nazi's face when you exercise your perfect legal right to have a TV antenna installed on your property to receive local TV signals.
In fact there was one particular case of a person who placed several of them just to prove a point. They consisted of Five television antennas and three satellite dish antennas to several towers and masts to be exact. The antennas apparently provided reception for ten television sets, nine video cassette recorders, and seven satellite receivers.
.... And despite these amazing facts and many complaints from the neighbors, the HOA was struck down dead with a bolt of lightning!
Here is the dirt on this:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/1999/da992132.txt
I WONDER HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE FOR THIS NAZI TO CHANGE HIS TUNE AFTER INSTALLING SEVERAL TV ANTENNAS ON YOUR PROPERTY!?
HE WILL BE "BEGGING" YOU TO PUT UP YOUR OLD AMATEUR RADIO ANTENNAS AND TO TAKE DOWN THE TV ANTENNAS ON YOUR PROPERTY.
Remember that your "knowledge" is your leading authority.
Use google to find more on this. Be sure to drown this Nazi with all the paperwork regarding this law you can find. Make him sorry he ever messed with you. Tell all your neighbors to put up TV antennas too!
I can't wait to see the look on this guys face!
Here are a few more places to look:
http://www.hamradio-online.com/1996/aug/fccanten.html
http://www.fiorelaw.com/legal3.htm
http://www.sodac.com/full-arc/fcc.shtml
http://www.schildlaw.com/win02let.htm#L3
You are now armed and ready to deploy your knowledge. Use it to your complete advantage and enjoy you new antenna installation.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K4NR on January 24, 2005
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Homes4Hams.com was formed in an effort to assist hams in finding Real Estate Professionals and Mortgage Loan Officers who understand the unique needs of amateur radio operators. All Real Estate Professionals and Mortgage Loan Officers listed on the site are licensed amateur radio operators and have real estate or mortgage loan licenses.
http://www.homes4hams.com
73 de Tom, K4NR
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K3ZE on January 24, 2005
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From John AK3Z: try www.homesforhams.com. I live in Carroll County, Maryland where, unless you live in one of the new sub-divisions, you can put up a tower, verticals, wires, etc. A majority of the homes in the county were built on tracts that were originally farm land. Most of the sub-divisions that are 20 or so years old usually don't have antenna restrictions.
Our home is 17 yrs. old and I checked on any CC&R's. There were (are) none. There is a new development about a quarter of a mile up the street and except for the 18" satellite dishes, antennas are not allowed. However, you can junk up your yard (as about 90% of them are)with trampolines, gazebos, kid's play sets, swimming pools, playhouses, ugly fences, huge decks that look like something built by the Swiss Family Robinson, and rock climbing walls, but an almost invisible wire or ground mounted vertical? Forget it, Sparky.
While I don't have the problems that some of our fellow Hams do, I can sympathize with them. I've also donated to the ARRL's effort to combat CC&R's.
Good luck.
73 Al K3ZE
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K6ALF on January 24, 2005
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Most all new develpments include CC&R's here in the
Republic of California. Most dont have HAO's thou unless you are in a gated community.
I was lucky 8 years ago to buy a home in a new development in San Jose. It had no CC&R's believe it
or not. Sad to have to move out of it thou.. It'll
be up for sale soon :-) ..
I agree, only way to truely enjoy the hobby with no
restrictions is to move out to the sticks like N6AYJ,
WA6BFH and others have stated. Or, to older
neighborhoods if working on fixer-uppers is your kick.
But I chose to by new and remain married instead :-) ..
TonyF
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2005
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"about a quarter of a mile up the street and except for the 18" satellite dishes, antennas are not allowed"
What gets me is these covenants and HOA agreements that say something like "No antennas of any kind except satellite dishes" are allowed on the property.
First of all, TV antennas are allowed anywhere. Period.
Lets see about the rest here:
Remove the AM/FM antenna from my car.
No antenna allowed on my AM/FM radio while operating my BBQ in the backyard.
Take the FRS radios away from any kids playing in the front yard.
Cut the antenna off my cordless phone.
Ditto - Cell Phone
Ditto - Kids remote controlled cars
No Wifi antennas deployed while using my laptop on the backyard deck
Operate my HT but ONLY when using a dummy load attached (technically this is not an antenna)
Do not operate GPS equipment while on property
No portable TV's allowed on backyard deck unless connected to cable service.
... where does this "no antenna allowed" insanity end?
Obviously, these laws can be disputed. They are about as clear as fuzzy logic gets.
Charles - KC8VWM
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by LNXAUTHOR on January 24, 2005
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good luck on your search...
i just went through this drill during July/August... the XYL looked at 50 different properties in an effort to accommodate her commute distance/time and my hobby...
in our case, nearly every non-HOA property was in a neighborhood with unsightly homes... i know this isn't always the case, but this is what we found after looking for quite some time...
however, we eventually lucked out and found a great home in a single-family neighborhood... the house is in an HOA, but the covenants ALLOW antennas! (the antenna cannot be visible from the front of the house)
there's also a county restriction on antenna height (limited to 32 feet)...
so my advice:
- get your finances in order
- get pre-approved, NOT pre-qualified (IOW, have a letter from a mortgate lender for your target home purchase)
- find a good agent and convince the agent that you're a ready buyer
- tell the agent what you're looking for and what things to look out for (in our case, the agent and the XYL drove around looking for ham antennas!)
- research county restrictions if applicable
- don't give up if you cannot find a suitable home/property after two weeks
- examine any pertinent documents concerning restrictions before you make an offer on a property
you'll get advice here like "well, just move out to the country," or "don't buy in an area with restrictions," and so on...
we can't all have exactly what we want unless we are retired with lots of money, so just do the best you can within your means...
i'm sure you'll end up with a great home in a nice neighborhood with friendly neighbors...
i put up a wire dipole and a stealth vertical after a month or so... in the interim i became friends with my nextdoor neighbor....
one day i said, "How do you like my antenna system?"
he said, "What antenna system?"
"Right there," i said, pointing to the backyard
"What antenna? I can't see an antenna," he replied.
"That's the point," i said.
:-)
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by VE7NGR on January 24, 2005
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N0IU bought a house with restrictive covenants and an HOA, but antennas were allowed. Then the HOA changed the rules oh him, and antennas are no longer allowed (except the grandfathered ones).
GHOSTRIDERHF bought a house with NO restrictive covenants and NO HOA. Then the neighbours formed an HOA and banned antennas.
I'm confused.
I thought that restrictive covenants were private contracts entered into when you bought the house/property. One party to a contract cannot unilaterally change the terms of the contract, nor can one party unilaterally enter into a contract with another party.
Is there something different about the way the law treats HOAs and CCRs down there in the USA that is different than normal contract law? If anyone tried either of those stunts on me, I would (rightfully) ignore them. Anyone who tries to sue me for breach of a contract that I didn't enter into is going to find their lawsuit tossed out of court in a hurry - and hopefully slapped with some sort of punishment for a frivolous lawsuit.
As for asking neighbours: don't ask, but inform beforehand. Industry Canada requires that I consult with my neighbours and my municipality before putting up a tower. That doesn't mean I need their permission - I clearly don't (unless I have restrictive convenants saying otherwise).
KT0DD: "The Vogons..."
What we need is a Somebody Else's Problem field to hide the antennas. :-)
OTT: "no bone boiling"
So you're not allowed to make soup?
I backed out of a house purchase due to restrictive covenants - no antennas, no poles, no RV parking, no overnight street parking, etc, etc, etc. Sorry, I'm not renting the place, I'm *buying* it. I *own* it. No one else tells me what I can do with it, except the law. WB2WIK mentioned the usual HOA garbage about type of mailbox, colour of house, etc. Why would I want to live where every house looked just like every other house anyway?
The house I did end up buying is just as nice, in just as nice a neighbourhood (personally I like this neighbourhood better). It did have two restrictions:
1. I cannot erect buildings other than private dwellings with suitable outbuildings - and no "Dwelling House" may be erected that costs less that $5000. Aw gee.... :-)
2. "No grant, assignment or occupancy of the land herein devised shall be granted or be permitted to persons of East Indian or of Asiatic birth and origin, EXCEPT of the white race". Obviously illegal and unenforceable. I had to read this one twice to make sure that's what it really says. It was an interesting history lesson.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KF3KWO on January 24, 2005
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We're getting ready to move to San Antonio, and we've been looking online at various homes. One thing I'm starting to do is to take the addresses of homes we're interested in and plug either the zip codes or street names into QRZ.com to try to find hams in the immediate area. A friendly email to them may provide me with some good information.
Oh yeah - the forum idea is a good one!
73 de Jeff, KF3KWO
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KA0JQF on January 24, 2005
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As a long-time ham (25 years) and as a Realtor®, I'm very aware of the effects of CC&Rs, and have helped fellow hams find homes over the years.
The rationale behind covenants is understandable from the perspective as a homeowner. Why would I want my home's value to be trashed by a neighbor with junk on their premises? I live in an older neighborhood "in the city" and thankfully don't have CC&Rs to contend with.
Even though we, as agents, do our very best to find information to benefit our clients, the ultimate due diligence lies with the purchaser. Consider making a review and acceptance of any covenants a part of your purchase process, and state so, IN WRITING, in your purchase agreement.
Where I live (the Des Moines, Iowa area) there are plenty of CC&Rs in newer subdivisions, but few HOAs (count 'em on one hand) for single-family neighborhoods--that human wacko element that is the real problem is largely absent here. On the other hand, I hear plenty of tales from those in condominium/townhouse associations...
Otherwise, the regulatory climate for antennas, in general, is friendly.
How can the tide be turned? Are you stuck living in an HOA-controlled area? No rocket-science answers here. Get active in your association, and lead. Otherwise, become a massive real estate developer (tongue semi-in-cheek) and write your own CC&Rs. ;-)
73,
Paul
KA0JQF
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2005
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"Even though we, as agents, do our very best to find information to benefit our clients, the ultimate due diligence lies with the purchaser. "
Even though we hire a realtor specifically to this work for us on our behalf?
Clearly, you can see the issue I would have with this philosophy.
?
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2005
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This laptop has to go..lol
Sorry, the question should read:
Even though we hire a realtor to work specifically for us on our behalf?
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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I for one appreciated Paul KA0JQF’s comments! Yes, we pay a realtor to help us with these things but, we may not be lucky enough to find a really good one! Also, as Paul rather diplomatically said, the ultimate responsibility lies with us.
Paul, I am contemplating buying 10 acres or more in both Arizona, and Nevada. I plan to build a structure that will basically be a 2 car garage, with a studio apartment on top, after I have purchased the bare land. My desire is to have a garage/machine shop below, and a Ham Shack/comfy den above. I will basically build twins in each state. My basic requirements, other than desired privacy, is to have a good VHF shot to the North and East.
Any thoughts?
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KF4VGX on January 24, 2005
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In the 'states', IRLP and Echolink will go away when the code requirement is eliminated. No one wants to deal with the hassles of "VOX" controlled radios, and the 'key-up' delays of linked repeater systems."
..................<g> .....................
But note that about two-thirds of the 89,183 U.S. EchoLink users are General class or above...
...................<G>........................
And their reasons are the HOA restrictions ,buildings ,apartments etc.
Vox will always be a part of amateur radio ( where did that come from )? Time delays Your talking about two or three seconds using Echolink . Time delays are at a minimum compared to what you will go through with HOA restrictions . At least they can be a part of the Amateur Society. Who are we to judge our fellow hams ? There are Hams that would be
( VERY )happy to have a conversation with a fellow ham in that circumstance.
Code has nothing to do with it .
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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VOX is Ok for SSB. It does not work well (as an operational consideration) for carrier modes, and it is a pain in the arse for FM -- especially if the receivers in the system have good noise squelch circuitry!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KF4VGX on January 24, 2005
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VOX is Ok for SSB. It does not work well (as an operational consideration) for carrier modes, and it is a pain in the arse for FM -- especially if the receivers in the system have good noise squelch circuitry!
I disagree, I have used vox for three years on FM. with great sounding results. Would you like to hear a sample of it via email ?
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8VWM on January 24, 2005
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I too appeciate Paul's diplomatic comments. I would like to point out however that my concern wasn't
limited in scope. I was seeking information as it pertains to a realtor's responsibility when a person makes a specific request for purchasing property from only HOA free developments.
Am I stuck with that property even though I made such a direct request? .. And, how exactly can we as ham radio homeowners prevent this from occuring to us down the road. What do we need to know?
I hope that you can answer this question for me.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Not really. How much 'limiting' do the receivers have that you talk to, and what are the squelch designs on them?
We should take this to direct e-mail though, if you want to continue!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Charles, I can't answer it but, I am seeking such guidence too!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KA0JQF on January 24, 2005
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Sounds like a potentially great play space. Not knowing the terrain there nor your marketplace, etc., and doing mostly HF work here on the rolling plains, I'd say get a hold of USGS maps or hit Terraserver to see what your best options are, balanced with land cost, utilities, blah, blah, blah... YRMV (Your reality may vary).
Paul
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WA6BFH on January 24, 2005
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Good tips on the maps! Not so much for me (I know what I want) but, they would help the agent.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KA0JQF on January 24, 2005
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(Dang, the response time here is fast--I'm a first-time poster with this thread.)
Charles:
Thanks for your thoughts, and your point is well-taken.
Speaking as a Realtor®, our knowing and filling one's needs starts with the you, the consumer telling us specifically what they want... Good Realtors will ask lots of questions, getting to know you, your needs, your decision-making style (or lack thereof in some cases), etc., so we can know and find what you want as well as, if not better than you do (don't laugh--I've found homes for families that they didn't see until they closed escrow and pulled up into their new driveway with a moving truck).
Many of us do that digging to begin with, and chances are, can already identify such an area on sight, or by address alone, as a result of our experience. FWIW, most states that I know of do not require we in the biz to do discovery of that nature. When you work with an agent there will likely be an agency disclosure that spells out our repsonsibilities to a consumer; but unless you're working with a ham/Realtor, they will likely be clueless about the hobby--most of the colleagues I work with have no idea what the antennas on the car are for.
73,
Paul
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KB7LYM on January 25, 2005
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I lived in area in the Northwest and was allowed by the good hearted city folks to put up a 15 story tower close to the center of the city. I was welcomed by all who lived in this friendly town.On Saturday the students from this sweet community came to my shack and helped clean my many rooms with Ham gear. During the winter they shoveled snow so I had a path to my Radio room. I showed those friendly Citizens my hospitality in letting them listen to my HF radio communications. Even when I blacked out the TV's in a 10 mile radius they did not complain. They usual brought me a hot lunch and also a few Police Officers went out of their way at night to patrol the area around my shack. Even in spring the young maidens planted Roses and I still remember the fragrance.
THEN I WOKE UP.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W6TH on January 25, 2005
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So you are renting a very nice four bedroom appt, you have put up a tower at 35 feet and a 3 element yagi on top. Also added a inverted vee for the 75/80 meter band.
You have been using this antenna setup for the past five or six years, now you decided to move and not take the rest of the antenna system with you.
The owner that rented you this appt will have to be involved to remove your antenna system and at his dislike does not appreciate the labor involved.
The owner now has to figure how to remove the 4X4X4 foot concrete base used to support the tower.
The owner has five other houses, each 12 feet apart and there are others that have a tower and a 3 element yagi in their back yards.
Now go figure why there is a CC&R and the HOA. Be reasonable you ham operators and have feelings for others as you would want the same feelings for yourself. What a selfish bunch.
.: W6TH
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8VWM on January 25, 2005
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Thanks Paul.
BTW, have you ever ran across someone who has made such a request to modify the conditions of the contract to meet such a need? If so.., was there any instance you have run across where the changes in the contract or HOA agreement said one thing, and after the clients moved in, they ended up doing another thing to breach the contract?
Any experiences you can share? Pitfalls?
Again, your comments are greatly appreciated.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on January 25, 2005
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KA0JQF, you expressed agreement with CC&Rs in principle, attesting that they help maintain property values.
I take issue with that.
I *am* writing a book on this very subject matter and have already been paid by the publisher to complete the work, and after more than seven years' research, I cannot find *one* example that verifies your statement of CC&Rs helping to maintain property values.
On the contrary, what I repeatedly find, after doing the research, is this:
Pick anywhere in the country that most would consider a residential "region," whether that be a village, community, municipality, neighborhood, town, or county. Research within that region the resale values of all homes in the past 12 months, and then calculate their periodic appreciation based on original purchase price.
Now, segregate that list into two sub-lists: Covenant restricted properties, and unrestricted properties.
Now, calculate the mean and median selling prices, and the mean and median apprication for each list.
Surprised?
I think *anywhere* you will find the unrestricted properties have appreciated more, faster, than properties having restrictive covenants. The reason for this is simple: The unrestricted properties, on average, offer...
-More improvements, as improvements are unrestricted; and, as a realtor, you know that certain improvements, once completed, appreciate must faster than the base properties themselves
-Greater desirability. True, many buyers, especially first-time buyers, couldn't care less about CC&Rs and will buy what they can afford and is attractive to them; however, higher-end buyers and highly experienced buyers will often shun restricted properties, having already been burned by living in one or two
-Verified stability. "New" construction, while usually attractive, is also unproven with regard to appreciation, drainage, traffic patterns, long term accessibility, disaster survivability and lots of other things. "Older" construction, for better or for worse, already has these things established and known. Makes many experienced buyers more comfortable to know that, for example, "this neighborhood hasn't changed in 20 years, so the traffic (and other things) I see here today is what it's going to be." And not, "they're still building here so fast and furiously that I wonder what traffic, crime and other things will be like five years from now?"
As a highly experienced home buyer, I wouldn't buy a covenant restricted property unless I could buy it for half the price of comparables; in which case, I still wouldn't live in it, but I'd keep it until the market hit its next peak and resell it as part of the retirement plan.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KG5JJ on January 25, 2005
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Would any of you consider living in a ham-friendly community (subdivision, whatever) where there is more than one ham (yourself)? I couldn't imagine the havoc that 1500 watts would do to you (and you them) and your poor receivers.
The only "ham-friendly" community is that found where you are the only inhabitant, no close neighbors, and no restrictions.
Subdivisions have their own brand of RFI emanated from hundreds of electronic devices. The typical noise-floor is pathetic.
Ham friendly means isolate yourself from detractors, human and electronic.
73 (KG5JJ) Mike
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8VWM on January 25, 2005
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Steve,
I would be interested in such a book.
When do you expect it's completion, and where can I get a copy?
Charles - KC8VWM
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by HAMDUDE on January 25, 2005
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Ahhhh... the dreaded CCR`s. Condo Commies Republic And the even more dreaded HOA`s Hitlers of America. Both should be outlawed! Its amazing to me that in a great country such as ours, you can buy a home on a piece of property, and have others dictate to you how to live on it and what to do on it! Didnt Russia try this approach once? I like the idea presented in this article. For once it would be nice to see ham friendly housing developments where you dont have to fight city hall and a bunch of nosy jerks to put up a tower.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K6AER on January 25, 2005
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I used to live in one of the most antenna restrictive areas in the country; Thousand Oaks, CA. Not even grandfathered installations were safe. Solution, I moved to the country, put up a large beam and tower and have enjoyed the hobby unlike my previous forty years. After you have had a license in a restrictive antenna environment, FM and repeaters, stealth antennas, QRP, HF mobile and TVI eventually gets boring.
Check the area you including local ordinances to make sure you will not have a problem putting up a tower and antenna. Don’t ask permission of neighbors, just do it. Make sure you have legal ground to stand on and you will be OK. NEVER, I say NEVER sign a CCR. It is a contract and it is binding. Once you go down that road you have given up your rights to a legal contract.
Living in the country is a bit less convenient than living in the city. So what if the nearest grocery store is 15 minutes away. It is worth it. Besides you will have your DXCC in two weeks.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K6AER on January 25, 2005
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I used to live in one of the most antenna restrictive areas in the country; Thousand Oaks, CA. Not even grandfathered installations were safe. Solution, I moved to the country, put up a large beam and tower and have enjoyed the hobby unlike my previous forty years. After you have had a license in a restrictive antenna environment, FM and repeaters, stealth antennas, QRP, HF mobile and TVI eventually gets boring.
Check the area you including local ordinances to make sure you will not have a problem putting up a tower and antenna. Don’t ask permission of neighbors, just do it. Make sure you have legal ground to stand on and you will be OK. NEVER, I say NEVER sign a CCR. It is a contract and it is binding. Once you go down that road you have given up your rights to a legal contract.
Living in the country is a bit less convenient than living in the city. So what if the nearest grocery store is 15 minutes away. It is worth it. Besides you will have your DXCC in two weeks.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N3DRK on January 25, 2005
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Went house searching on the coast of North Carolina near Wilmington three weeks ago. The housing business is Booming. Subdivisions going up everywhere mostly cookie cutter homes. Prices are astronomical and you must pay the homeowners which is also on another planet due to the hurricanes. Point is every subdivision I went too I could not find a one that would allow me to put up any type of antenna. NOT A ONE. Ironic that it is mainly ham radio which bails these communities out during a disasterous hurricane season. Go figure.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K3WA on January 25, 2005
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Check out the following URL for a small start:
http://www.homes4hams.com/
73... Bill K3WA
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W5EEX on January 25, 2005
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I live in Arizona and I am HAPPY to have CC&R's for the community in which I live. For one, they keep the property values going up by preventing "junk collectors" from moving in, but they also level the playing field for hams. I am a QRP CW and PSK31 enthusiast and I would just as soon be assured that no other ham is going to move in and put up a tower and beam and run a kilowatt to mess up my QRP fun. Our CC&R's have been in place 15+ years and I am happy as a clam (with stealth antennas) and enjoying being the only ham (that I know of) in the area.....no QRM, no unsightly towers, just fun operating!! I sympathize with the hams wanting to run full power and beams, but they have the option of buying land in the "outskirts" and putting up any kind of antenna they want to.
73
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CCRs, HOAs, and Reason.
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by W3DCG on January 25, 2005
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I have to say, if I were not a ham, and had to live in one of those cookie cutter made, nestled communities, I would hope that REASONABLE CC&Rs were in place to protect my investment.
Actually I am a ham, and I still believe in reasonable restrictions. I got busted for leaving my old Celebrity wagon on the front lawn off to the side. It was not CCR's that got me, but County Ordinance. So I have since moved it, and not begrudgingly.
I chose to live where I have moved.
I checked for CCRs.
My take on it is, I would never want to live in a cookie cutter type community. If I must, I sure do not want any CCR restrictions that might limit *reasonable* potential with regard to antennas. Where I am, there are trees, it's a small lot. I would take offense to a 150' tower in my neighborhood. I think I'd need a permit, or I should! It gets windy, and 150' means it could fall on neighbors' property.
As a ham, when it became clear we were moving out of Atlanta, come hell or highwater (school system and I have kids), you can imagine what my criteria was, and it was all preceded by school district zones. Hard to accomplish within very modest means. But at night, in the Winter, I thank my lucky stars as all criteria was met, while I stand on the deck gazing through naked hardwood trees, at the Atlanta city skyline, way off in the distance, over DOWN yonder!
So one MUST try, be patient, and a little bit of luck always helps.
Ackworth, GA I think recently passed some ordinance banning HOAs from overzealous restrictions on ham radio base stations.
But I think moderate CC&Rs are important.
I don't want my neighbors parking several junky looking cars on their front lawns all the time.
I don't want my neighbors having a floodlight that shines straight into my bedroom window. I don't want a neighbor's front lawn turned into a dustbowl because they have a huge Marmaduke dog on a dog run out there, pacing back and forth all day with flies buzzing all around out of control.
But naturally, my view of reasonable is different than non hams. To me a 55' tower is not an item that should cause property values to decline.
So obviously there is a reason for CCR and HOA restrictions- and all one can do is- when the opportunity to relocate arrives, do the best you can to avoid CCRs and HOAs.
Check it out too…I hear in rural areas, particularly where there may be farms- you better check RFI especially when it’s wet out. Electric fences can generate your worse nightmare! Even if no farms, you need to check power poles/step down transformers, particularly, when it’s raining or when there’s dew.
Happy real-estate hunting and best of luck!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N1EY on January 25, 2005
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:N1EY, CC&Rs prevail in *many* places, including SE MA.
:Check out any "new" housing being developed on Cape
:Cod, see what you find. Even places where most homes
The cape is a fry cry different from where I live.
CC&RS are nonexistent in my general area.
Bill
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N6TZ on January 25, 2005
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It pays to check each city in the area you are planning to buy into. Early in the replies on this subject, K6AER told of his problems in Thousand Oaks, Ca. I live just 6 or so miles from Thousand Oaks, but in the Community of Camarillo. Camarillo is an up-scale safe and well kept community about 45 miles West of Los Angeles and near the ocean.
The difference is like day and night. I have a 50 ft. tower up and VHF antennas on a seperate mount and they are all blessed by the city. In Camarillo, they allow 75 feet of tower in your back yard as long as it is all in the back yard. The permit fee 3 years ago was $37. There are many homes that are 25 or so years old and thus have no CC&R rules.
BUT, there are new tracks that have CC&R rules that tell you NO Nothing, and be sure your trash can is in by 7 pm.....and I own one, but rent it out....too much like living in a prison.
My system gives very good operation on ALL bands from 10 meters to 160 meters with no gaps. You can see my antenna at:
http://earthsignals.com/N6TZ
Hal, N6TZ@arrl.net
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WS4Y on January 25, 2005
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I live in Chautauqua County Kansas and they seem to
be ham friendly. However my nearest neighbor is
3/4 mile away. I think including my xyl and I there
are less than 10 hams in the county. There are no
restrictions in this county. In fact no building
code. No building permits and no building inspectors.
Paid 132K for this 280 acres including small house
on rural water and barn. No a bad arrangement for
a retired ham wanting lots of space and no hassels.
If you need a job I would not recommend coming here
but if you are retired there are lots of areas like
this you just have to search.
Bill WS4Y
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB9OMC on January 25, 2005
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While some idiot from South Korea is trying to break
in to my computer and my Firewall keeps getting
beat on :-) I'll say that I think this is a
splendid idea. When I tried to stir up interest in
a grass-roots pro-antenna organization sometime back,
this kind of a list would have been a major component.
I still have the site up, albeit now rather outdated,
if anyone wants to look: http://www.antennasup.org
will get you there. (now how do I get that to be an
active hyperlink?)
I say go for it, but with one caveat - whatever you
do, post only factual information that you can
corroborate. Many of these HOA jerks will sue anyone
in a heartbeat and would probably love a nice juicy
slander suit. As long as you keep it factual,
preferably by quoting their own anti-antenna rule,
you'll probably have few problems. Public ordinances
are most likely less troublesome because they are
public record. Handle them factually and again, I
doubt you run into trouble.
I also suggest, if you haven't done it already, talk
to the guys at National Antenna Consortium. They
have guys with a LOT of experience in this area, and
possibly even a lawyer or two - which might be a
good source of information.
Yup, great idea - I say go for it!
Duane
WB9OMC
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W3UA on January 26, 2005
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Exact e-mail I received from the Town of Bedford (NH):
Ham radio towers are protected as an essential component of civil defense in the United States, and they therefore enjoy an exemption from zoning regulations regarding zoning districts, height,setbacks, etc. The towers are required to meet structural safety standards(building permit), and each applicant must also receive approval from the FAA regarding safe approach to the Manchester Airport (the FAA might limit the height of the tower or require a blinking red light on the tower). So, "Gene" does not need a zoning variance.
Sincerely,
Karen White, Bedford Zoning Administrator
===============
Now I have two 80' towers with 4 ele on 40, 5 over 5 on 20, 6 over 6 on 15 and 7 over 7 over 7 on 10. There ARE places where we can enjoy both ham radio and life.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N0IU on January 26, 2005
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W3UA wrote:
"There ARE places where we can enjoy both ham radio and life."
As I write this, the current temp in Bedford, NH is 13F and tonight the actualy temperature is predicted to get down to -2F with a wind chill factor of -20F. According to weather.com, the average snowfall is 72" a year.
I think I will keep looking for that "ideal" QTH!
NØIU
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on January 26, 2005
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Scott (N0IU), there are plenty of places that allow towers and have nice weather.
I might be tempted to recommend many parts of Florida, except the recent hurricanes were pretty scary. Still, many towns in Florida are very "ham friendly," and I have several friends there who *recently* installed big towers for amateur antennas. My old friend Ivars, KC4PX of Merritt Island, FL (near Cape Canaveral) springs to mind as one.
And of course, here in Los Angeles, amateur radio towers are exempted in a manner similar to that described in New Hampshire by the previous post. You do need a standard building permit and a foundation inspection may be required to satisfy that, but there are no prohibitions of any sort.
And "as I write this," it's 76 degrees here on January 26, 2005...
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB3JOK on January 26, 2005
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"Interestingly, regarding Missouri: I think a nice area is the Ozarks of southwestern MO, and because the cost of living there is very low (compared with here!), I considered investing in a home there now, to retire to maybe in 10-12 years from now. I found that almost all construction in the area, although widely detached homes not in subdivisions at all, and almost all on 3 acres of property per home, have CC&Rs. They won't even let you put a boundary fence around your property, or install a basketball court. So much for ever settling there, I ruled it out, permanently."
I also moved to the Ozarks (West Plains, Mo). Got a house (cheap) on 121 wooded acres overlooking a 4 acre pond, tv tower already in place (now holding up one end of my 5-band trap dipole) and, best of all, since it's outside of the city limits there is no zoning at all. Some residents of the area do have wheels on their houses and not on the cars in their yard, but they are not seen or heard...
It's a nice quiet area to live, too. 10,866 people, and the nearest bigger city (Springfield) is 100 miles away. Just don't buy the few new crackerboxes in developments!
-Charles
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on January 26, 2005
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Charles, the problem is that where you describe, which sounds pretty nice, is also pretty rural. I can't live like that, as with obligations around the country and the world, I need fast access to a major airport. It's bad enough that LAX (Los Angeles International Airport) is 25 miles from me, I'd prefer to be much closer, but this is the way life worked out.
If I had to travel 100 miles to an airport, I'd spend 50% of my time traveling back and forth to the airport. But for someone who can adapt to the rural life, sounds like you've got an ideal spot, there!
As you prove, "ham friendly" communities truly are everywhere.
73 & don't relax too much, you won't have time to get on the air!
Steve, WB2WIK/6
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KA0PMD on January 26, 2005
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As a real estate agent and a former title examiner,
I'd urge any Ham to find the time and research the
documents pertaining to your property at you local
courthouse. If you're even thinking of moving into
a planned development, get a full copy of the
Association bylaws and read them carefully.
Attorneys are often thought of by real estate agents
as "deal killers," but their help can be worth many
times more than what you spend for their billed time.
I think another individual posting to this forum
mentioned that just because there aren't any CC&Rs
prohbiting antenna support structures and antennas,
doesn't mean there won't be any restrictions in
the future. Likewise, HOAs are notorious for
their groupthink, so "caveat emptor" applies in
this situation.
The surest, safest bet is to live in the "boondocks,"
but barring that, if you're looking to buy property
in the city (or in a rural subdivision), a little
bit of digging (or a few hours of a real estate
attorney's time) can save you huge headaches and
possibly many thousands of dollars.
As I see it, there is a possible danger in making
a list of ham-friendly developments and communities
(File this one under the law of uninteded consequences): Namely, if a developer sees his/her
development on a list, that might serve as notice
that it's time to file an amendment to the bylaws.
73,
Steve Lawrence KAØPMD
REALTOR®
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K8NQC on January 26, 2005
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For those past 60, I found a wonderful Senior facility in Indiana that welcomes Hams. It is one of the top rated places that has many levels of independence based on ones needs. I see that one fellow has up a triband beam and a shortened dipole. I also see a wire antenna up on the roof of the one building. I don't think I want to list the name of the facility but I will respond to an email to k8nqc@arrl.net .
When we look at the age of hams, this kind of place becomes important. 73, Bill
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K9KJM on January 26, 2005
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Door County, Wisconsin has to have one of the most ham friendly zoning ordinances in the entire country!
Passed in July 2004, Federal licensed amateur radio operators are allowed up to a 200 foot tower with NO zoning permit required!
The amateur radio tower must be a "secondary use" on property that has your main home on it.
(You could not just buy an acre of land and put up a big tower without a home)
This applies to rural Door County, Not villages or cities with their own zoning, And also does not cover CC&R's in private subdivisions.
The purpose of the new ordinance was to slow down or regulate the proliferation of cell towers. The local Door County Amateur Radio Club turned out en mass for the zoning hearing and got ham towers exempted from any regulation!
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N6AYJ on January 27, 2005
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Earlier I wrote about ham-friendly El Dorado County, California. Politically, we are a "red" stronghold in an otherwise "blue" state. The "blue" counties in the state have a lot more antenna restrictions than we do. Of course, that's because they know how to run our lives better than we do.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K6ALF on January 28, 2005
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.........El Dorado County???
I thought Placer County was the most Red.
In either case, it a matter of demographics.
:-)
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W6TH on January 28, 2005
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You wait for it to happen and then you tell us about it. You did absolutely nothing to put a stop to it.
Let me give you a run down on the Free State of New Hampshire:
Seat belts are not a requirement to wear.
Helmets for motorcycles are not required to be worn.
Automoble insurance is not a requirement.
There are no sales taxes, the money you earn is all yours.
Also hand guns and such are allowed and no restrictions as to wearing them or concealing them, etc.
I could go on and on, but will just bring up one more important word of knowledge:
The Free State of New Hampshire is into the home study course for the young generation and the Federal Government wants control of all schooling. This is up to the republic and not congress to control. The Constitution is written that the Government has no say or control as to our education system. which it seems our lawyer controlled congress thinks it is.
Keep your ears open and find what power the people of New Hampshire will hold for the future.
I cut this short as I believe you will maybe wake up to what can and not be done. Also about the IRS is unconstitutional and how the American people are being ripped off.
Very interesting.
.:
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W6TH on January 28, 2005
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A republic:
A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
If or should these officers do not do what you tell them to do, GET RID OF THEM.
.: It is one of your many rights and not just a privilege.
.:
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by W9LVM on January 29, 2005
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In Antioch, Illinois their is a HOA Tiffany Farms which will let you put up a small beam as they have okayed one for my house and will be putting up in Spring!
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KB9YGD on January 29, 2005
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There arent Any Ham Friendly communities And Very Few Ham Friendly People.This is What I have Concluded Over The Years.I have A Well Thought Out Station With All The Things In Place To Curb Telephone/TVI/rfi/emi Interference & I Fully Understand How the FCC Has Let The Consumer Electronics Manufactures Sell Their Equipment Nationwide Without Any or Very Little RFI/EMI filters,ETC.But Try Explaining This To Some Neighbor Screaming & Pounding On Your Door Or The Policeman Who Says You Have To Quit Operating NOW...Simply Because He Doesnt Understand The Problem!To Him Your A Cber & He May Want To Arrest You.And Im Supposed to Be Happy With This...How About You? These Homeowners Groups Simply Have No Right To Tell You What Or What Not To Do On You`re Own Land And Our Government Is Wrong For Letting This Go On!Lock The Gate & Doors Draw The Blinds & TURN UP THE AMPLIFIER...My 2 Cents Worth Worth.73,``THE REAL HAM``
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by NU6A on January 30, 2005
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It is retirement time, and relocation into the Pacific Northwest, generally in the geographic areas outside of Seattle, Washington have been visited. Two areas visited that have either no restrictions or specific agreement for the installation of antenna support structures and antennas are Normandy Park, Washington (west of Seattle-Tacoma International airport) and Edmonds, Washington (28 miles north of Seattle). In Edmonds, the city's building codes provide specific information on the installation of towers up to 50 ft.
In general, the CC&Rs are a result of builders trying to make their recently constructed homes attractive to buyers, the reason for the restrictions. In older areas, such as Edmonds and Normandy Park, all of the homes are generally more than 20 years old, so there are no known exclusionary restrictions against the installation of towers and antennas.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by NP2B on January 30, 2005
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Sure you will want to see if there are covenants and restrictions. You also want to make sure there are no city or county restrictions. Fighting a homeowner's association or city hall can be a long, expensive and frustrating process.
But also, consider how close you will be to your neighbors. Every day, more and more cheap electronic stuff comes on the market which will be susceptible to strong RF fields.
The closer you are to your neighbors, the greater the chance you will get into their telephones, their stereos, whatever. And even though no CCRs are in place, and that you have not violated any public ordinances, RFI to your neighbors will be a very big problem, and one that may get the local authorities or an HOA on your back, regardless of whether they have a right to complain or not.
Forcing yourself into a community where they don't want you is almost always a losing proposition.
Just my $0.02
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on January 31, 2005
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W6TH: I don't know if you're an ex-pat from New Hampshire or are just bamboozled by things you've heard and read; but I've lived in Boston and have spent a great deal of time in NH, and the things you say are views through rose colored glasses.
NH has very high property taxes, substantially higher than what we pay for equivalent value homes in California, and that pays for most of their internal services. They have no state welfare program, so if you cannot support yourself, you're pretty much out of luck. Many of the municipal services are "shared" among a number of municipalities, such as co-op volunteer fire departments where each town has none, but cooperatively, they share a department among a number of towns and hope it's enough to go around if there's actually a fire.
Although NH is a beautiful state like all the others, they haven't done much to provide public access (for residents) to most of their most beautiful park and mountain lands. What could be the best skiing in the state, on the slopes of Mt. Washington (the reknown Tillman's Ravine), is undeveloped and if you want to ski there, be prepared to hike up.
And of course, there's that "weather!" (Famously or infamously, the highest wind speed ever recorded using scientific instrumentation was at the summit of Mt. Washington -- I think it was 247 mph, if memory serves me...haven't been there in a while.)
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by NN6EE on January 31, 2005
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State: California
City: Concord
Reisdence: Marvilla Tract (old-established neighborhood)
CC&Rs : Supposedly none!
BUT!!! City of Concord has blanket rules for ALL Ham Radio antenna installations: (Without permit-30ft. height-limitation max.!!!) No known permits issued for ANY heights above that!!!
Recommendation for residence in Concord: You'd be a HELLUVA lot more happy living someplace else as a Ham!!!
:-(((
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by NN6EE on January 31, 2005
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W6TH (quote),
RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities? Reply
by W6TH on January 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
A republic:
A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
If or should these officers do not do what you tell them to do, GET RID OF THEM.
.: It is one of your many rights and not just a privilege.
******************************************************
Mr. Rose-Colored Glasses/TH if you think that changed can be brought about by VOTING to throw the "Rascals" out, and you're in the MINORITY" nothing you do will change the "out-come" realistically!!! Oh sure you can litigate but that takes LOTS of $$$$ and lot's of time, and even then the hoped for outcome may not be what YOU wanted in the first place!!!
EE
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB9GZL on January 31, 2005
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With respect to CC&R's, it is my understanding that some states have enacted statutes which mandate that all cities, towns, subdivisions, etc. within that state MUST provide reasonable accomodation for amateur radio antennas. These statutes over-ride any existing conditions, covenants, and/or restrictions that any local entity such as a subdivision may have.
I live in Wisconsin and I live in a subdivision with typical antenna restrictions [i.e. the only antennas allowed are small satellite dishes]. The restrictions of our subdivision expressly forbid amateur or "ham" antennas of any kind. However, a few years ago, the Wisconsin legislature enacted a statute that forces my subdivision control committee (and all other such committees in Wisconsin) to reasonably accomodate an amateur radio antenna or antennas for every property within the subdivision.
More importantly, it is also my understanding that in the United States, about half of our fifty states have enacted similar legislation. (And I believe there is an effort at the federal level to enact a law that would include all fifty states.) So if you believe you are precluded from erecting an amateur radio antenna, do a little research to see if your state is one of the states that has passed legislation which over-rides the amateur radio antenna CC&R's you live within now.
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KA7TTI on January 31, 2005
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In Arizona virtually every housing development (aka "community") has CCR's restricting or outright banning of Amateur Radio antennas. After putting up with it myself for almost 10 years I decided to move to Sun City West, which is located west of Phoenix. Good place. Lot's of amenities and antennas are OK.
Phil
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC8SHP on February 1, 2005
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I'm just curious about this, but is it possible to purchase a home that is in one of these communities without signing any contracts? I'm new to all this, but it seems to me that unless the sellers won't sell to you unless you sign, no other party can force you to sign a contract in order to purchase someone else's private property...
I'm sure there is a legal hold that allows them to do it, but I know I wouldn't want some other party telling who I can and can't sell my property to..
73
Chip - KC8SHP
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB2WIK on February 1, 2005
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Those last few posts would imply they're from people who never bought any real estate...
First, there is no federal or state legislation or preemption for amateur radio operators with regard to CC&Rs, period. PRB-1 has been accepted by about half the states and signed into law by their respective governors, but has nothing whatever to do with exempting restrictive covenants for amateur antennas; it has to do with limited preemption of zoning restrictions only, and is purely voluntary in both accommodation and the extent of that accommodation.
Second, there isn't any way to purchase real estate anywhere in the U.S. that doesn't involve signing contracts, recording a deed, and making arrangements to pay taxes on the property. Within those contracts are, in the case of "CC&R properties," deed restrictions that have already been recorded by the county and must be adhered to, whether you sign anything saying you agree to them or not. Ignorance of the existence of such restrictions is not a waiver of them.
The best way to avoid restrictive covenants is to be absolutely certain none exist for the property of interest and not bother looking at any for sale that have existing restrictions.
Sometimes, the real estate agent, or even the broker, is unaware of any restrictions and will happily tell you there aren't any, when there really are. You have to do your own research to find out for certain. I've found cases where even a selling homeowner who has owned the property in question for many years either didn't know, didn't remember, or refused to disclose anything about any restrictions. If you buy that property, you're saddled with whatever restrictions there are, prior knowledge or not.
When in doubt, consult a practicing real estate attorney.
But without consulting anyone at all, it's obvious to the well informed when a development or subdivision has CC&Rs. I can "smell" them a mile away. Look for the obvious signs:
-Visit the neighborhood at night and see if there are cars parked on the street, or in driveways.
-See if there are any "security gates."
-Look to see if anyone has an RV or boat parked in his driveway.
-Look to see if people are routinely using their property for different types of sports equipment like basketball goals on 10' tall posts (permanent, not mobile).
-Look for television, CB, scanner and ham antennas.
-Do people have their own private pools (not a "community" pool)?
-Do residents have different colored homes with different colored trim, roofing materials, garage doors, mailboxes and other accessories?
-Ask a few residents who might be out and about doing yard work on a weekend if they have any Homeowners Association.
If you suspect this is a "conforming" development, meaning all properties and features are very similar with few deviations, you're probably right to assume there are indeed restrictive covenants, and they are in force.
My recommendation at that point (and the only advice I follow, myself): Look elsewhere.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by WB9GZL on February 1, 2005
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With all due respect, WB2WIK/6's statement that "PRB-1 has been accepted by about half the states and signed into law by their respective governors" is only partially correct. Although it is true that about half of our governors have now signed a PRB-1 related statute, the statute is not likely to be the same in each state, but instead is likely to vary from one state to the next. In other words, some states may have adopted more preemption than what PRB-1 offers. If you are an amateur facing CC&R restrictions, it may be worthwhile for you to discover what your particular state has adopted and learn how it compares to PRB-1.
The remainder of WB2WIK/6's message is resoundingly clear--if you are buying a home or a property now or anytime in the future, do your homework first.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by N4ZFQ on February 2, 2005
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"Unsightly towers"????? I did'nt know there was such a thing.
You Arizona retiree's. You think the sun rises and sets in your crack. It's guys like you that won't stand with the majority to fight an unreasonable HOA. YOU are the weak point in the battle line. You are too selfish to include yourself in the HAM fraternity.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by LEFTY on February 5, 2005
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I haven't read all of the posts here but I'll add
my two cents anyway. I serve on the architectural
committee in the HOA development where I live and
of course a major concern of mine were the outdated
antenna regulations. During the process of updating the arch. guidelines a few years ago I made it a point to explain just how outdated our regs were. That didn't sit very well with anyone. Can you imagine changing the very restrictive language to allow huge yagis for those weak TV stations? Hell NO!!! Having sat. antennas rammed down their throats was bad enough.
So, the antenna regs are still a big lie to this
day. I operate only on 40 mtrs with a 32.5' wire
out the second story rear window down to a tree
branch abt 8' off the ground. The dia of which is only .011..... Can hardly believe its been up all
winter. So far, so good, and I intend to keep it
that way, hence the Lefty instead of a my call.
So whats it take to get a msg board set up here for
we who were stupid enough to give up some very basic
rights?
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC0LTV on February 6, 2005
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I don't quite get the point of suburban developments in the first place. Rural or urban for me...after all, you get the disadvantages of both living in a "subdivision"-type community: lack of space (rather than a 5, 10, or 40-acre rural plot) as well as of convenience/community (you have to drive everywhere in most modern subdivisions, as the developers lack the wisdom to integrate businesses and homes together within walking distance like REAL cities/communities).
Oh well, different strokes for different folks...
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by LEFTY on February 9, 2005
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Now there was well thought out and constructive
message. All you suburban types take note.
Contact a realtor ASAP...
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Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by KC5CQD on February 11, 2005
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All I can say is that my wife and I buy real estate all over the U.S. We fly to those areas before the purchase and get all of the "ins and outs" of the property prior to purchase.
If it involves anyone telling us what we can or can't do with our property......we don't buy it. No matter what the price. I must give credit to my wife here; she won't buy anything that restricts towers and/or antennas. She's not a ham but she loves and respects our hobby. More than we do, at times.
I think a lot of Hams buy property based upon "details" other than amateur radio and when they wish to practice their hobby....they realize they've screwed themselves with the contracts they've signed.
The wife and I always keep our options open, in regards to ham radio because we're not sure of wich property we're going to call our home at the time of retirement.
You don't have to buy into a HOA just because the ole lady thinks it's appropriate, gentlemen. Sometimes you have to put the family second when you have a true passion.
It can be a bitch being a family man and an avid hobbiest. Get some gumption.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by K4JF on February 11, 2005
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<State: California
City: Concord
Reisdence: Marvilla Tract (old-established neighborhood)
CC&Rs : Supposedly none!
BUT!!! City of Concord has blanket rules for ALL Ham Radio antenna installations: (Without permit-30ft. height-limitation max.!!!) No known permits issued for ANY heights above that!!! >
Actually, that's a violation of federal law (quite different from CC&Rs), and someone needs to inform them of the fact.
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RE: Where are the Ham-Friendly Communities?
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by LEFTY on February 13, 2005
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Local government has every right, even the obligation
to regulate all structures, including antenna
installations for the public safety. Concord has
an extensive and well written antenna ordinance;
http://www.ci.concord.ca.us/citygov/agendas/council/1999/reports09-07-99/rpt09-07-99-4a-attach1.pdf
Their bottom line is if you want to go higher than
30ft, your damn sure going to do it right, and I have
no problem with that.
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