Humble Pie Huge Serving
William Galanos (KC9ANQ)
on
March 28, 2005
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I posted a review on the High Sierra 1800 Pro and thought I would share the story here because of the humble pie serving I deserved. ENJOY
THAT'S RIGHT! I heard everyone asking, I heard everyone saying "I might try that on a tower" Well I did it. I bought my 1800 Pro from AES Milwaukee at the 2004 Superfest to use on my car and try on my tower.
First let's talk about the High Sierra people at the Superfest. Eileen (spell check) from High Sierra was there and her husband? In fact I think they are the owners? I bugged her ALL day long looking at the 1800 Pro. First I was asking her questions testing the waters so to speak to see if she "KNEW" the antenna, guess what… SHE DOES!
The installs:
I first attached it to the hitch of a Pontiac Sunfire. Small car needed a LOT of ground strapping, hitch to frame, frame to body, body to exhaust and so on. The antenna tuned ALMOST everywhere. I had a problem tuning on 12 meters only. I even hooked the antenna to my Cobra 29 and it tuned 11 meters. So a simple email to tech support and was told add some length to the coax. I added 6 foot and why this worked is beyond me but it did.
Next I installed it on a Hazer unit on my Rohn 25 tower. I was thinking originally that I would attach it directly to the tower and the tower itself would provide an adequate counterpoise. I then came across a Hazer unit and decided to just install it on the hazer. Well it didn't work! I KNOW I KNOW THE MANUAL SAYS TO USE 4 RADIALS BUT I DIDN'T READ IT YET! I mean what they know; I have been doing this ham radio thing about 4 years I KNOW BETTER! So I decided to hose clamp a jumper of braid from the u-bolts of the antenna to the cable of the hazer going to the crank, I mean cable is cable and it will make a counterpoise. DIDN'T WORK! I could not get an acceptable SWR ANYWHERE! OK THE ANTENNA IS DEFECTIVE!!!
Then I just took it off the car and it worked fine, hmm... I did briefly read a section in the manual that said to use the "little coil" in a mobile install but its not needed in a base install. YEAH RIGHT WHAT DO THEY KNOW!!! So I installed the coil, DANGIT THIS DAMN THING STILL DON'T WORK!!! OK so I decided to read just a little bit about the install and they show to use 4 radials cut at 32 foot 16 foot 11 foot and 8 foot long. That's makes no sense to me so I am not doing that.
Instead I had an old G5RV lying around and I cut the 2 wires off and installed the 2 wires as my radials each is 51 foot long, the longer the better right… that should work. NOPE!!! This antenna just will not work on a tower!!! Well I was going to email them and raise all kinds of heck! But I said to myself, "SELF read the manual so they don't try to gig me on my setup."
Well I didn't understand why I should have to use 4 different lengths of radials, but I did it anyhow just to prove their theory was wrong!!! UH OH THE ANTENNA TUNED!!!
Well that was just on 10 meters let me try 75…hmm 1.3 SWR!!! OK now I am going to try everywhere INCLUDING 60 METERS, WOW IT WORKED!!! EVERYWHERE and I actually hear people now.
There must have been something "rattle loose inside the antenna before" so I am going to unhook those 4 wires and prove them wrong! HMM it won't tune now. Well I have been a ham about 4 years and that didn't make sense, I got out my brand new antenna book I bought 4 years ago and never opened and read up on this. Well well well, now it makes sense and during the few days of reading the book I was making contacts ALL OVER THE WORLD with these 4 radials up. Being the stubborn person I am I decided to not admit being wrong so I brought down the antenna and put it on a 3 foot tall TV antenna tripod on the ground with NO radials, I mean the 3 legs should be enough of a counterpoise, remember I read the antenna book but I do not want to be wrong! Need I explain any further what happened? But I will say after hooking up the radials on the antenna at 3 foot I was again making contacts.
Finally I read the ENTIRE manual, and High Sierra even says in there NOT TO RE-ENGINEER the antenna and don't email or call them if I haven't followed EVERY step AS SHOWN in the manual. Hehehe, well I guess they knew what they were talking about because it works great on a tower with the Hazer, although again, me being stubborn will mount this on the tower legs and not the hazer with no radials to see if it works, I just have to prove it to myself!!!
Please save yourself a lot of time and read and FOLLOW the manual. If I did I would have been on the air a lot sooner. In fact I bought the sensor for a digital reader for the antenna and I will actually follow directions to install it. HUMBLED…
Having this antenna for about a year I can say I am VERY VERY pleased with its performance both on a car and on a tower.
I told my wife I know it all, so she threw our set of encyclopedias in the trash to teach me a lesson. Lets see how that turns out =)
73 from Chicagoland
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by NS6Y_ on March 28, 2005
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Sounds like the computer geek saying RTFM (Read The Fine Manual) might have been invented by hams after all!
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KB3HQX on March 28, 2005
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This might have been INTERESTING if it wasn't the SAME as your review, almost word for WORD- and if you didn't needlessly CAPITALIZE random words in every SENTENCE. And IMAGINE, a female who actually knows the business that earns her a LIVING!
RTFM isn't quite strong enough, Maybe GAFC? STFU? LTFS?
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KA4KOE on March 28, 2005
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I have NO PROBLEM with capitalization in written pieces. Besides, you need need to
Relax, its only Radio!
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA6BFH on March 28, 2005
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I think it is generally good to think of or speak of antennas by their generic design. That way, if your sorting out problems, you can think of the antenna as it relates (reactively) in a ‘schematic sort of way.’ It also helps the folks who have never seen a “Double Plated Super Framous” for themselves! Afterall, when Xl = Xc the darned thing ought to be resonant. Of course, this puppy sounds like its got a lot of “Xl”!
Since they told you that they were using tuned radials, when you first read about cutting them to specific dimensions, I would have thought that would have been a big clue as to the reactance situation with this puppy. Of course that’s also what they are telling you when they suggest ‘fudging’ the reactive impedance by ‘tweaking’ the reactive tuning with selected lengths of feedline.
So, now are you going to install a simple resonant antenna to test or compare performance?
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W6TH on March 28, 2005
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There is reason to read the manual.
All you had to do was count the number of times the waves jump back and forth (nonresonat via vswr).
Insert your tuning fork to minimize the amount of jumping waves.. When you find that Xl=Xc, again count the waves to see if they have diminished. If not, then take a peak at the book that came with the thingie you are trying to get to be as you desire and then consider the book could be correct and what you should have done in the first or second place.
The third place is to call Eileen and chew her out and scream and holler till she hangs up.
The last resort is to call a friend that knows what has to be done and he will correct your jumping waves.
Nuts to you to.
.:
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KC9ANQ on March 28, 2005
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Dont get me wrong I totally agree that I should have read the manual ,,,,,,,,, I did have fun learning and will never forget the experience.
Remember an adult learns better when told WHY they need to do something instead of just being told "DO IT THIS WAY"
This learning experience has put another spark into my hobby.
7 3
Bill
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by NI0C on March 28, 2005
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I'm still puzzled by the installation of an expensive screwdriver antenna on a tower!
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KR4WM on March 28, 2005
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>Next I installed it on a Hazer unit on my Rohn 25
>tower. I was thinking originally that I would attach
>it directly to the tower and the tower itself would
>provide an adequate counterpoise. I then came across a
>Hazer unit and decided to just install it on the
>hazer. Well it didn't work! I KNOW I KNOW THE MANUAL
>SAYS TO USE 4 RADIALS BUT I DIDN'T READ IT YET! I mean
>what they know; I have been doing this ham radio thing
>about 4 years I KNOW BETTER! So I decided to hose
>clamp a jumper of braid from the u-bolts of the
>antenna to the cable of the hazer going to the crank,
>I mean cable is cable and it will make a counterpoise.
>DIDN'T WORK! I could not get an acceptable SWR
>ANYWHERE! OK THE ANTENNA IS DEFECTIVE!!!
>Then I just took it off the car and it worked fine,
>hmm...
Uhhh.... if I read this right, you hoisted your car with the antenna mounted to it to the top of your tower using a Hazer??? Hmmmm.... wonder what would have
happened if you removed the car from the antenna before
cranking 'er up??? <GRIN>
I know someone using a screwdriver mobile attached to
their house, and yes, they are using a tuned
counterpoise system quite successfully!
73, -KR4WM
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KC8VWM on March 28, 2005
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What? read the directions?
We don't need no stinkin directions...
(...ok, so how do I exit from here now?)
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KC9ANQ on March 28, 2005
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"I'm still puzzled by the installation of an expensive screwdriver antenna on a tower!"
Just an experiment, wanted to see how well it worked.
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W6TH on March 28, 2005
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Possible you thought it as a screwdriver and not a antenna at first and then realized it was an antenna and not a screwdriver. Regular blade of was it a phillips?
Now you know, now you can pass the manual to some-one else. You gained a tremendous amount of knowledge. Enough for work as a technician; turn the page read and you will be a electrical engineer.
Last week I could not spell inginear and today I are one.
.:
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by K9NYO on March 28, 2005
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It's nice to hear a new ham who isn't afraid to share his experiences. I'm lucky to have a good antenna Elmer nearby who has put me back on the right track many a time. Not everyone is so lucky...so get down off your judgement bench and teach this guy instead.
A couple of years back during a traffic jam, AC9Y (my Elmer) and I were a couple of hours out of Dayton and we saw a ground plane (with radials) mounted atop a tower. The antenna was on a rotor. We consider this a landmark now. I might consider a screwdriver on a tower a landmark, too. We *learn* from such landmarks don't we?
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W6TH on March 28, 2005
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I am willing to learn.
I wonder what advantages there is to mounting a ground plane antenna on a tower or mounting it about two tenths wavelength above ground?
This is a serious question and not joking as I really would like to hear true information regarding the mounting of on towers or on near proximate to ground.
As I mentioned; What are the advantages, dis-advantages?
.:
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KC9AGG on March 28, 2005
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this always helps me with my antennas : " they are all dipoles" they all have two halves--if i remember that i'm usually not terribly frustrated.thank you for your article--i could tell you a story of the time i accidently tuned up my noise antenna and made a dx contact on it!! i love this hobby.
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W6TH on March 28, 2005
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K9NYO
"we saw a ground plane (with radials) mounted atop a tower. The antenna was on a rotor"
You are kidding me , aren't you? Gnd plane on a rotor?
.:Heh, Heh.
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by X-WB1AUW on March 28, 2005
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Nice chatty article, especially since it is about your experience, experiments, and you're NOT complaining, or telling others how they should conduct their lives.
Please let us know about your next experiments.
Some day, someone will let us know what happens when they phase two vehicles on HF.
73
Bob
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W6TH on March 28, 2005
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You mentioned:
K9NYO...so get down off your judgement bench and teach this guy instead.
We don't judge old man, but try to teach. When a person has a instruction sheet, I am sure that it is included to read first. Secondly I would like to mention when it is mentioned to be a ground plane, the ground plane gives a hint that there are radials included to the vertical portion.("we saw a ground plane (with radials) mounted atop a tower").
This is an indication that I must mention to you a ground plane contains radials and that is why it is called a ground plane. When such is called a ground plane it also is an indicastion that it will be mounted above the ground level.
I am not judging you, but simply adding knowledge and wisdom to have you have and to hold.
Normally a person learns more by teaching him or her themselves, than to hear some statements and then are forgotten within minutes.
Gee, you new hamsters sure are touchy folks.
.:
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W6TH on March 28, 2005
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by X-WB1AUW
Some day, someone will let us know what happens when they phase two vehicles on HF.
==================================================
Do you mean two vehicles or verticals? Cars or antenna?
When you phase two or more verticals the antennas in phase will produce more gain both on receiving and transmitting. and attention of the side lobes. More also and later as you ask.
When you phase two vehicles you burn twice as much gasoline.
.:
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KC9ANQ on March 28, 2005
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Let me explain a few things here because of the emails I have been getting.
My reason for the tower mount was to experiment. Will it work on a tower?
Why did I not believe I needed "tuned" ground radials?
Well, I had mounted the antenna on my car and had no "tuned" radials and the antenna worked great. Yes I had to make sure I provided a good ground on the antenna from the car body, but nothing was "tuned" for specific frequency. So my thought was the more metal attached to the ground connection the better the antenna worked . With that in mind I thought why do I need radials when the tower was over 50 foot high and I could just simply attach the ground connection of the antenna to the tower and it would work as my ground plane? Well I never did check that because I came across the hazer and connected the antenna to the hazer and thought,,,,,,,,,,,,,well if the antenna is in the air with the hazer there is 50 foot of cable connecting down to the winch and the winch is bolted to the tower so there is plenty of metal to provide a ground which should make a ground plane? None of these theory's of mine panned out as you can see by the article. So in reality I knew I needed another "half of the antenna" to work but I thought the tower would provide what I needed.
I in no way consider myself an idiot, just not fully educated on the subject.
Please understand also I in NO WAY think High Sierra did not know what they were doing I just thought I knew a "better" way to get to what I needed. I did call High Sierra and each time I called they were very helpful, I just didnt listen hehehehe.
I have been asked Why put a motorized antenna on a tower?
My friend has a small lot but also has a 40 foot tower that holds his television antenna. He cannot run a G5RV on the property just because the lot is so small. But he can attach the motorized antenna to the mast and still work 75-10 meter and enjoy his hobby. So we tried it and it worked, eventually, hehehehe. I figure if he has a use for a motorized antenna on a tower so might others.
I hope this answered a few questions because I really enjoy what this antenna can do and the flexibilty of where and what it can be mounted on, I mean why mount this antenna on a submarine? Who cares why, it can and has been done.
73
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KR4WM on March 28, 2005
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>X-WB1AUW
>Some day, someone will let us know what happens when
>they phase two vehicles on HF.
I see someone has been reading Kurt N. Sterba again...?
All you need is a budwig connector.... <GRIN>
-KR4WM
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA4DOU on March 28, 2005
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One has to wonder if lessons like this are ever fully learned? Or need to be learned and relearned?
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KC8VWM on March 28, 2005
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"I have been asked Why put a motorized antenna on a tower? "
Why bother with motors at all when you phase two vehicles on HF?
Bill, humor aside - I think you have a really great article! Experimenting is what it's all about.
73 - Charles KC8VWM
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA4DOU on March 28, 2005
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Experimenting is indeed a vital part of the equation. But mindlessly experimenting with no discipline serves little or no purpose.
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA2JJH on March 28, 2005
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RTFM seems to be the method of last resort sometimes.
I can always do trial and error. Well, unfortunitly
after I fry or toast enough devices you get he hint.
One can have 4 years or fourty years RTFM still applies.
The real problem can be one gets no manual at all.
With used goods, a internet search is most prudent.
Many times I have purchased a used rig. A rig is a rig is a rig,right? Wrong!
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W3DCG on March 28, 2005
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Some people just won't be swayed by even experts.
I tend to be that way at first. The enthusiasm of newness/inexperience adds to my stubbornness as well. I am equally guilty. I've spent hours and hours trying to figure out better ways. Couple of times I posted the ideas on serious reflectors- I mean, as in where world renowned professional RF Engineer types live, where the combined knowledge and experience is beyond many hundreds of years. Those who responded I'm sure were humoring me.
Yet, I refused to accept statements like, "...believe me, been there done that, several times- recommend keeping it balanced..." I wouldn't hear of it, no one wants to hear the idea they just pondered for days and days is NOT going to work as well as something else or some other thing, or in this specifically "NORMAL"
c o n v e n t i o n a l manner. After traipsing around the lot an equivalent of miles worth of hiking, up ladder down ladder run there hoist, run back hoist, hands worn raw from pulling ropes up and down, covered in saw dust from hacking whatever limbs I could reach that got in the way, I had some good stuff. Sometimes, it loaded beautifully, nice and almost flat! But reports in most directions I cared about were disappointing at best.
It's easy to think "Longer is better" too, I know I did. Once. Okay, well- twice.
I made a nice end fed half wave vertical where a quarter of the antenna was coaxial shield. Worked reasonably well on a band or two while being also, the worse antenna I ever tried on 28Mhz.
I thought this way when I first came back to the hobby not very long ago. Got a 160m G5RV and expected it to work the same people I was used to working with my 40m half wave dipole, but be LOUDER. ha. Silly me. Eventually I investigatively reread my Antenna Book, Handbook, articles by Cebik and Tom. Tom Sawyer I think of that Tom as, perhaps according to the Tom Sawyer I imagine as depicted by Rush from Moving Pictures.
Many articles to be discovered on the internet. Oh, there are some juicy full-on no-holds barred debates turned into near war to be found in some reflector archives!
But some people, especially in the beginning, by fault or virtue of their personality disorder/strength-
work much harder than required. In this manner they come to realize and appreciate the painful truth of knowledge.
Several burst bubbles later, I have still not been able to create that magic and simple antenna that does everything exceedingly well on every band.
However, once in a blue moon I do experience magical conditions. Where according to theory- and over 90% of the time in actual real-world practice, the person on the other end of the QSO is supposed to be at or well below the noise level. But for some reason is at least 579, peaking 599, barefoot, arm-chair- often times lounge-chair copy- the whole way.
Like we're both running about 80W and our antennas are horizontally polarized, both under an 8th of a wave high, and we're nearly 3000 miles apart. He's been active over 40 years and he's even thinking wow- what a night!
Stubborn head-strong types my take a bit longer to arrive, but when eventually we do arrive, we have certainly earned the depth of our misunderstanding.
As well as the comprehension gained by fighting our way through the impeded and inefficient paths of our own design.
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W6TH on March 28, 2005
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Well I played with the vertical antenna above and on top of a tower. It was my R7 and also a R5 vertical.
I first tried the R5 on the ground at 8 feet as Cushcraft recommend to do. Going from the 8 feet to 30 feet there was abosutely no difference, that is as signal strength on receive and transmit. The only noticeable was the line noise from the power company was not pronounced, although my power lines are a good 320 feet from the tower.It would not be fair to judge the power line noise as I seldom had any.
I also tried the R7 and the same exact results. So 40, 20, 15 and 10 meters was checked out. Brought the both antennas down and put them at the 8 feet above ground.
Later I asked others who have done the same and they agree with what I am saying at this moment, no difference.
Remember when you try it.
.:
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by K1CJS on March 29, 2005
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A good story and a lesson learned, but how many will pay attention? We all should be interested in experimenting and trying different things, but the manual should be read first whenever we get another 'goodie' even if we have to get the manual elsewhere.
Yes, I'm guilty too--I admit it!! In some things, it isn't so bad, like the antenna in the story, but in others--well, lets just say it is hard to set things right once the electron fog gets out!!
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by KC8VWM on March 29, 2005
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K1CJS,
It was once said:
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.
If one does not experiment, then one cannot discover.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WW3S on March 29, 2005
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GAFC= Great Annual Fish Count
STFU=Star Trek Federation University
LTFS=Long Term Frequency Stability
NCT=Nicoya, Costa Rica (airport code)
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA6BFH on March 30, 2005
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De Plane, de plane hehehehe!
I liked the comment to the effect ‘well, I knew that the antenna needed a Ground Plane but, figured that there would be enough metal on the tower to provide it, afterall, I did not need to add a tuned counterpoise to my car’.
So if I’m getting the concept right, you envisioned your tower as a plane. This could be a really handy discovery! I mean when I walk across a plain, it is relatively flat and easy to negotiate. Everytime I have climbed a tower, it was quite a bit of work straight up. Maybe you could post a picture of your method? I’m afraid to try myself, I figure that I will fall on my a*s!
In seriousness what I am saying is this. If we have a quarter wavelength radiator in free space, and it has a counterpoise of ¼ wavelength radials at 90 degrees to the radiating element -- the feed point impedance will be 36 Ohms.
If we re-work these radials such that they are now parallel to the radiating element, as in a coaxial sleeve type antenna (or more like a whip on a tower) the feed point impedance will be 72 Ohms (actually the whip on the tower would look like some really strange lumped constant L/C circuit).
Back to the point -- the two scenarios are as different relative to the antennas performance, as you would quickly find out when you put on your sneakers, and tried to walk up your tower as if it was a vertical sidewalk! It ain’t a counterpoise plane!
73! de John
PS
Has anyone done radiation resistance measurements with this High Sierra antenna -- as compared against (or opposed to) all of the antennas that are being batted around here in this thread as DIRECT comparisons?
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA6BFH on March 30, 2005
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Vito, I concur with you, and I did a similar test. In fact, it was exactly the same as your test but, I used 2 Meters!
I mounted a 2 Meter Ground Plane at .06 wavelengths above the ground or 4.6 inches, comparatively the same as your 8 foot high installation for 40 Meters.
I next mounted it at about a quarter wavelength high (19 inches) comparable to your 30 foot tower on 40 Meters.
It worked crappy both ways! Imagine that?
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA6BFH on March 30, 2005
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Vito, I was so inspired with the first tests that I tried another variant!
This time I mounted the 2 Meter Ground Plane at 30 feet, and it worked pretty good!
Now comparatively, I guess that means that you would have to mount your 40 Meter R7 on a tower about 604 feet tall.
Do you think that might work pretty good?
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA6BFH on April 1, 2005
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Uh, I think you would need to provide a counterpoise as well. Just a further thought!
I though would probably put 4 'half-waves' in phase at the top of the tower!
I think that that would work pretty good!
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA4PTZ on April 2, 2005
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I'm sorry, I seem to have lost the point of this...
was it :
(1) An advertisement for High Sierra?
(2) Another anti-woman attitude ?
(3) An attempt to re-invent the wheel?
and my favorite...
(4) a lot of hot air ?
I prefer the KISS principle, which was obviously
overlooked here.( Keep It Simple Stupid)
73,
Tim
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RE: Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by WA6BFH on April 2, 2005
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Definately anti-woman Tim! We don't really care about Ham radio or antennas, we just like to bag on women!
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Humble Pie Huge Serving
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by W0IVJ on April 20, 2005
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Bill--It sounds like you would be a good canditate for EZNEC (http://www.eznec.com) This is an antenna modeling program. You could have answered most of your questions by modeling the various scenarios you tried, plus you could have gained some insight as to why some of the things you tried didn't work. I don't mean to discourage you from experimenting, but your experiments may be a bit more guided if you model your antenna before hand. I have been a ham for 50 years and have learned more about antennas from EZNEC than any of the wire that I've have strung over the years. Good luck in your learning experience.
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