Where's the Innovation?
Nikolas Ziehe (K4VFR)
on
April 28, 2005
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I remember the early days of amateur radio... early to me anyway. 1996. I remember installing my first mobile rig, making my first contact, buying my first boat anchor at a hamfest because it looked cool. I also remember the days of thumbing through the AES catalog, thinking how cool that new mobile rig would look in my car. 50 channel memory. -- 50 watts output. Wow! What could they possibly improve?
Just when I thought it couldn't get any better, along came computer programmable radios and alphanumeric displays. "How great is that?" I thought.
I started getting into packet radio and APRS. After learning how to program a TNC, soldering up some interface cables, and hooking up a GPS, I was on the air. Mind you, this was still before any of my peers in high school had cell phones.
Then came a radio that tied it all together for me. The Kenwood D700. Computer programmable, built in TNC, Alpha tags on the display... and more. It's the radio I still use today. However, the technology of the 90s just doesn't do it for me anymore. Anxiously, I have been waiting a reason to upgrade, but it's just not there.
I look through the AES catalog now, and it's just the same 'ol stuff. Sure, new radios have come out, but ultimately, the features aren't that dramatically different from the radios I already have.
Here's my wish list for the next APRS mobile rig:
1. USB and Bluetooth interface for programming and GPS interfacing. Imagine being able to reprogram your radio from your shack while your car sits in the garage 15 feet away. Or cloning radios with other operators at a special event or natural disaster wirelessly. Imagine that mess of cables gone that interfaced your GPS and TNC/radio (I think a few radios already are capable of aver the air programming, no?)
2. Universally compatible programming cables. USB to USB interface cables would solve this.
3. Built in GPS. To some readers, this might seem absurd, but in reality, GPSs are cheap these days, so why not build a radio with them and complete the package. Heck, my cell phone is even GPS enabled.
Of course, there are the obvious upgrades, like bigger screens, more memories, and more room in the alpha tags. I would like to store much more data than 8 characters allow.
These are just the main things that come to mind. I look at projects like the HamHud, tinytrack, and others, and wonder where the ham radio manufacturers have dropped the ball. So many gadgets have come out lately that have diverted my discretionary income away from amateur radio.
Hopefully, the big three will have some new goodies to show off at Dayton.
Nick
K4VFR
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Where's the Innovation?
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by KD4AC on April 28, 2005
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"3. Built in GPS. To some readers, this might seem absurd, but in reality, GPSs are cheap these days, so why not build a radio with them and complete the package. Heck, my cell phone is even GPS enabled."
In a way, I have wondered about this myself. Garmin produces a set of FRS radios that have GPS mapping built in. With these radios, it is possible to transmit your location to another user and have it display on their map. I'm kind of surprised that the big three haven't done the same thing.
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Where's the Innovation?
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by KB9YUR on April 28, 2005
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The technology is certainly there. Why not an HT with GPS and SSB capabilities that covers
the 6m, 2m & 70cm bands?
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by W9RPE on April 28, 2005
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Simply put. There is not a market out there for what has been described so far. At least not in the USA. Even if it happens, that stuff will be available to hams in Japan long before US hams see it if at all.
I love new technology, but I certainly don't want an oversized, overequipped and overpriced HT right now. I like gear I can use daily and not pricey "gadgets" that I may use once a year.
I think what you described is more a "dream radio" of your own wants than "innovation".
My two cents.
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Where's the Innovation?
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by LA6UIA on April 28, 2005
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It is all about standardized interfaces. On my own behalf, I am very fond of Bluetooth, and I would like to see the ham community propose a Bluetooth profile for the interconnection of GPSs, TNCs, computers and detachable front panels. Since Bluetooth tranfers voice as well as data, this is technology very useful to us.
With a common Bluetooth profile, the same front panel or a computer application could control several radios. We could walk around in our gardens while operating through the radio in the basement. We could let the computer control the frequency synths and start experimenting with frequency hopping schemes (CDMA multiplexing, improving the hopeless channel allocation algorithm in AX.25).
Installation in cars would be very easy, and I would like to operate my portable equipment from inside a Bluetooth-equipped motorcycle helmet (they are on the market now).
Improved interfaces with integrated voice/control would encourage a lot of experiments by hams that are mostly software-skilled (read: can't solder ;-))
Kind regards,
Anders LA6UIA (Norway)
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GPS for ARES / RACES
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by N0EW on April 28, 2005
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Certainly having GPS coord's displayed on a HT would be very helpful in a lot of emergency operations. This could be made even more useful by having the coord's easily sent to other radios.
Imagine being the emergency net control... all your team members were using HTs that automatically sent out their call signs and GPS coord's every ten minutes (sub-tone, as with repeaters).
One step further: this information is automatically routed to your laptop and displayed on your mapping software.
Other HTs could access this list via their menu screens and read through the listing supplied: call sign and GPS coord's.
Oh, very cool, and it would make for safer operations with greater ease.
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Where's the Innovation?
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by K0RGR on April 28, 2005
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Let's think in terms of making it expandable in the future. Bluetooth and USB are both good ideas. Give it the capability of plugging (or wirelessly connecting via Bluetooth) a 1.2 GHz. or higher RF deck to support high speed digital operations and digital voice.
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Where's the Innovation?
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by K4RAF on April 28, 2005
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"wonder where the ham radio manufacturers have dropped the ball"
They haven't, we have...
If there were more of a market, there would be products available. There is no incentive to serve the US amateur market since the number of potential purchasers is so small, why even bother tooling up?
Garmin sold over 4 million Rhinos since releasing these innovative radios. Even if every ham bought a radio you speak of, that would be less than 1/5th of the Rhinos sold.
BTW: Buy your Kenwoods now, they will be the next to bow out of the amateur arena. This has been evident for some time since they haven't even answered the IC-706 "shack in a box" phenom !!!
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Where's the Innovation?
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by N4ZOU on April 28, 2005
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APRS is boring, just a bunch of people running around shouting "Here I am". Worse is the problem of operators setting that location beacon to shout so often and through so many other stations that it makes the frequency unusable to get any kind of traffic, emergency or not, to other stations on the APRS frequency. Yes, I have played with APRS and discovered all these problems that no one wants to talk about. As for getting help, you're about 110% better off with a Cell Phone these days. You would never be heard over all the APRS stations shouting, "Here I am" every 30 seconds through 20 other APRS stations repeating that same lame information. The last time I tried to use a 2-meter transceiver to report an accident with injuries I was told in no uncertain terms that you MUST be a member of that club to use the repeater. Needless to say a CB transceiver and CB operator would be more help, which is pretty sad to say the least. Its no wonder Amateur equipment is not being updated to any extent.
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by W6TH on April 28, 2005
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.
Why not a cell phone and enter what you want to use: SSB, CW, You name it and I will feed it.
.:
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by MEMBER2BE on April 28, 2005
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you'll never get an answer, these guys just run open at the mouth and don't say anything, next thing you know they will want CW on cell phone
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by W9RPE on April 28, 2005
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MEMBER2B,
Why are you posting to an amateur radio forum on a topic you obviously know nothing about?
I would recommend you read more and comment less unless you have something to add.
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by KA3RFE on April 28, 2005
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RPE:
I will refer you back to the second sentence of your post.
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by KC0CGF on April 28, 2005
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>Why are you posting to an amateur radio forum on a topic >you obviously know nothing about?
>I would recommend you read more and comment less unless >you have something to add.
Now, there is an attitude to show off in public! Nothing like encouraging a potential ham with a few words of wisdom.
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by K8MHZ on April 28, 2005
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Member2be:
My apologies for lack of a decent response to your question. I will try to answer it.
Bluetooth. A technology that uses tiny radio transcievers to eliminate cables. Like earphone to cell phone. Microphone to radio. Computer to radio. The first time I saw it, it was used on a video camera to transmit images back to a communications van that would then uplink to a satellite.
Alpha tags. On some ham radios you can store words on the displays of the radios either along with or instead of the frequency. The are usually short, only allowing 8 or so characters. I have one that only does 6. Better than nothing though.
I hope that answers your question.
Cheers,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by K8MHZ on April 28, 2005
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Oh, and Nokia just applied for a patent on CW ring tones.
Just think, caller ID in CW. How cool!
Back to Net Control,
K8MHZ
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by K8MHZ on April 28, 2005
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<The last time I tried to use a 2-meter transceiver to report an accident with injuries I was told in no uncertain terms that you MUST be a member of that club to use the repeater.>
That's pathetic. Obviously you didn't run out and join the club.
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Where's the Innovation?
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by KI4BNH on April 28, 2005
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Yeah, it's pretty sad to have so many wires flying about to remote a d700 & gps.
Rigs with sd cards, usb, btooth etc.
I'd like to swap/copy secure digital cards between my f6a & d700
Small keyboard for my 700's aprs msging
But alas there is not enough market for such 'modren' toys. Of the small ham population, what subset would really spring for that trick stuff.
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by KC8VWM on April 28, 2005
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<The last time I tried to use a 2-meter transceiver to report an accident with injuries I was told in no uncertain terms that you MUST be a member of that club to use the repeater.>
In no uncertain terms, I would have read him the riot act.
This individual is unqualified to operate an Amateur Station. They should be stripped of their license privileges for causing intentional interference with a station who is actively engaged for the purpose of emergency communications.
Period.
Charles - KC8VWM
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Where's the Innovation?
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by WA1RNE on April 28, 2005
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Times have changed, by amateur radio has not.
Never enough toys and gadgets and no place to show them off. Kind of like being dressed up for the party with no where to go.
Bluetooth and GPS is all fine and dandy play stuff on a Saturday afternoon, but the Kenwood's, ICOM's and Yaesu's manufacture to make money, not entertain the wireless crowd.
30 years ago, I was thrilled with good old fashioned HF mobile DXing using a state of the art FT-101B and a Hustler antenna system from a '69 Caddy.
Working Northern Ireland on 15 meters at 35 MPH was a thrill......DXing while weeding my garden doesn't sound very appealing.
WA!RNE
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Where's the Innovation?
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by N5EAT on April 28, 2005
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Aprs is kind of neat. However, I have to agree with the contributor who said that it's just a bunch of people who like the idea of being on the air, but not being personally involved. Same basic group of hams that have packet stations (if you can find a packet station). One of the involving forms of packet is DxCluster. At least people are actively communicating.
I think the best thing for APRS would be to make it less automatic and more personally involving. It's too easy now to just set it and forget it. Making it easier to setup would just decrease the learning (enjoyment) curve and quicken the pace at which stations are turned on and forgotten.
However....it is kind of neat to drive around and check out different beacons. Everynow and then someone will respond to a message I send with my usual
informational data. That is way too rare an event,
however. It has great possibilities, but like ax.25 - it's just something which kind of goes unnoticed - even by the participants. The greatest innovation for APRS would be involvement.
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Where's the Innovation?
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by NA4IT on April 29, 2005
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OK here's my take...
Rock bound rig similar to the MFJ unit w/ 20W output.
TNC on board, similar to Kantronics KPC3
GPS on board
Diplay unit, sized like the Icom PROIII
Plug in up front for keyboard for text messaging
Well...
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by MEMBER2BE on April 29, 2005
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W9rpe, I asked a question about something, if you don't know the answer, don't be a a$$hole
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by K1CJS on April 29, 2005
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W9RPE said:
"Simply put. There is not a market out there for what has been described so far."
Sadly, this is true--as far as amateur gear goes. But consider this: With standardized communication protocols and Bluetooth on the individual pieces of equipment, there is no reason that a ham transceiver can't be interfaced with other equipment such as GPS units, laptop computers, wireless keyboards, etc. The other equipment wouldn't have to be made specifically for ham communications, any Bluetooth equipped electronic hardware could be set up to work with our rigs.
The only drawback (and probably the reason why is isn't being done) is that type setup would allow the interaction of ham rigs and cell phones, and FRS radios.........
If we show the manufacturers a desire to buy rigs with Bluetooth interfaces included, the rest may follow--I believe there are Bluetooth keyboards now and know there are Bluetooth GPS units available.
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by KC2MMI on April 29, 2005
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<Whats an AES catalog?>
I don't an AES catalogs anything. Honest, "catalog" is a verb. A catalogue is what you hold in your hands when you want to order something from it.<G>
USB is a problem because USB requires a HOST COMPUTER at one end. You don't just plug USB stuff into each other the way other serial lines plug into each other.
And Bluetooth is problematic because it is insecure, there have been lots of hacks (even from 1/2 mile and further away) and of course seurity means encryption which hams aren't allowed to use.
Garmin? Yeah, not just FRS, they've got a GMRS Rino out now too.
Then you've got marketing and economics. Get fifty thousand hams to put money up front on an advance deposit, and you'll get a manufacturer interested in building product. Oh wait, that's right, you can't find 50,000 hams to agree on anything, not even on what voltage should come out of an AC wall socket.<G>
Innovation? We're supposed to be DOING it, building it. Not buying it off the shelf. Which means computers and microelectronics and a lot of digital technology to learn if anyone wants to bring the hobby beyond the 1950's tech that it is stuck in now. Not an easy project! Simpler to build a "radio engine" and make that a peripheral to a laptop, PDA, or tablet computer, probably. And probably still smaller and cheaper than a "good" rig was in the 60's.
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Amateur Radio and Encryption
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by KB1HTW on April 29, 2005
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I think that the FCC would allow encryption on Bluetooth +control+ links such as between a Bluetooth-equipped control head and a transceiver. Bluetooth is by design a interconnect cable replacement - short distance, low power.
What the poster is advocating is NOT encryption hiding communications between two amateur operators (which is forbidden). Bluetooth encryption would be used primarily for peripheral connection to the radio, and to a lesser extent between a operator and his/her "remotely controlled" station. Even if Part 97 regs by letter prohibit it, the regs never anticipated something like this and I'm sure the FCC could be successfully petitioned to formally allow it. Not doing so would put the operator at risk since someone else could remotely hack and operate his station - illegally. Slam dunk logic, if I say so myself!
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RE: Amateur Radio and Encryption
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by K8MHZ on April 29, 2005
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Member2be:
I don't know if you are a ham yet, but if you are not and thinking about it, please take my advice:
Just do it!!
What you are reading is not ham radio. It is the Internet.
I made the choice to become a ham over 10 years ago and it has given me great experiences, great friends and great fun. It has also provide a means for me to spend some real quality time with my daughter. And more!!
If you have questions that I may be able to help you with feel free to e-mail me at k8mhz@k8mhz.com.
Cheers,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: Amateur Radio and Encryption
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by X-WB1AUW on April 29, 2005
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If enough hams want what you want, and are willing to pay for it, some company might make it.
For me, I use GPS to locate where I am on a screen holding a map of where I want to go. It also has voice alerts and voice directions. Now if Garmin incorporated a nice SSB tranceiver into it, I might be interested in it.
73
Bob
PS: if I ever want to go mobile, I have a nice DC unit for one of my TR4CWs. Be sorta hard to hook it up to my MC though.
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RE: Amateur Radio and Encryption
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by K3UD on April 29, 2005
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I guess I am really out of it.
I never felt the need for a GPS unit. I used to teach the Boy Scouts orienteering skills. Today, Boy Scouts take their GPS units on hikes for whatever reasons. I suspect that for most people who buy them, they function more as a cool toy than anything else.
Maybe If I was exploring some uncharted areas in outer Mongolia it might come in handy if I ever got lost.
I also never felt a need to constantly broadcast where I am while travelling.
73
George
K3UD
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RE: Amateur Radio and Encryption
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by K4VFR on April 29, 2005
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Many good replies so far...keep em coming. Here are some points I want to respond to:
- I believe the market for such a radio does exist. The basic specs I described aren't asking the world. They simply incorporate technologies that have come along since the release of the d700. If Icom has an HF radio for $10,000+, I would think that there are enough hams who would spring for 600-800$.
- I think it is the manufacturers who have dropped the ball, not the hams. I mention again projects like the Hamhud, tinytracker, and others, that lead the way. For example, smart beaconing is something only these devices do, not the d700. We haven't even gotten a firmware update from Kenwood.
Bluetooth and GPS are more than just playstuff. They are things that would really make a difference in the way I can use and maintain my radio setups. The manufacturers do produce radios to make money, and my point is, without radios that offer something new, none of the manufacturers will be seeing ANY of my money.
Forget what I have said so far about radios, GPS etc.. What do you want in a new radio, APRS capable or not? What is keeping you from buying what's on the market now? There just isn't anything new that my current rigs can't already do! So what's the point to buy the same ol thing?
I hope this doesn't sound like I'm whining and have nothing better to do... I just really enjoy this hobby, but am frustrated that it's becoming more and more difficult to maintain my interest in it.
73
Nick
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Where's the Innovation?
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by N0AH on April 29, 2005
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Why not just go back to square one and get a mobile noise blanker that works-
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by X-WB1AUW on April 30, 2005
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“What is keeping you from buying what's on the market now?”
Nothing is keeping me from buying what is on the market today. I’m just plain not interested in it, or any mobile gear.
One reason I haven’t bought a new rig in decades is that I can buy used rigs that do everything I want/need a rig to do.
When I look at new rigs, the first question is what will it do that my present gear won’t And, is it worth spending $$$$ on it? Even when I factor in selling what the new rig would replace the answer is NO.
It is like buying a new computer every year. They are a lot faster, but for what I do, I don’t benefit much from faster.
It is easy to consider that manufacturers have dropped the ball. Or, it might simply be that they cannot make net profit by selling what you want.
And, remember, even though the States are a large chunk of the market, the market is world wide. Do ops in other countries want what you want? Are they willing to pay the marginal cost for it? A good place to check is Japan. Ask ops in Japan is they are willing to spend more $$$ for your great idea? EU is easy to talk with and is another large market. What do ops there think?
73
Have FUN
Bob
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Where's the Innovation?
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by N3SSL on May 1, 2005
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Hi fellow hams:
Thanks to the fcc for not allowing the new technology into the ham arena and the two-way radio side. it took motorola over 12 years to get mpt 1327 trunking in the good old USA. cdma technology is old news in europe. I wish the fcc could get with the rest of the world on the communications technology.
ryan
n3ssl
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Where's the Innovation?
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by KG0R on May 1, 2005
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I agree on the innovation. I have a D700 as well, and I haven't seen anything yet that I would consider to replace it.
I've been looking for a radio that will do 6/2/220/440/902/1.2G all in one radio, but I haven't seen that yet either. Yeasu is coming along with their 8900, but none of the manufacturers has put 220Mhz in their mobile multi-band radios.
As for the built in GPS, that seems like the logical next step.
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by W9XT on May 2, 2005
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KC2MMI wrote:
<<USB is a problem because USB requires a HOST COMPUTER at one end. You don't just plug USB stuff into each other the way other serial lines plug into each other.>>
Actually that is not strickly true. There is a new standard called USB OTG (On The Go). Devices using this standard can configure themselves to be either a host or peripheral.
The application most often cited is for connecting your digital camera directly to a printer without needing a PC in the middle.
73 - Gary, W9XT
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by N8IK on May 2, 2005
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K8MHZ - I have caller ID in CW on my Treo600. It's very fb - I don't have to take my phone off my belt to know who's calling me. Just use MorseMidi or similar to create an MP3 - email it to phone - link to person's phone number. If they have a call sign I use that, otherwise I use their name.
73, Ian
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RE: Where's the Innovation?
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by K4JF on May 3, 2005
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Interesting to note (at least to me). I read in an airline mag last week an ad where a company has invented and is marketing "advanced technology" for your TV. It's an AGC unit for the audio - 1950s ham technology. Ham radio ain't that far behind some others!!! :o)
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Where's the Innovation?
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by WW0H on May 4, 2005
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I like the idea of being able to proram your radio from the house, one way or another. When Icom first introduced the IC 7800 with the SD card slot, I emailed them, suggesting they incorporate that idea into their mobile radios. Of course I didn't hear back. With all the memories and alpha-numeric capabilities of today's mobile rigs, it would be so much easier to sit at your keyboard, select the information for each channel, save to an SD card, then load the information into your mobile unit. With a computer, you would be able to store multiple frequency sets and re-program your whole radio in a matter of seconds.
GPS would be great, as has been said many times; not just a toy - think of Search and Rescue. Great for ARES use, particularly if you respond to an emergency out of your area of familiarity.
John - WW0H
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