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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?

Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. (WA5ZNU) on September 18, 2005
View comments about this article!

Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?

My wife and I have a Whirlpool Duet washer and dryer. The RF noise that the washer makes is terrible. I used my Elecraft KX1 and a clip lead antenna for finding where the noise was strongest. It all comes from the front control panel, which is plastic. Little comes from the power cord. I also found tremendous noise used on AM and FM broadcast radios in the house.

I posted a message to an RFI mailing list, and found a few other people with similar problems, using Gibson and Maytag Neptune brands.

The Gibson washer was quieted by an AC line filter, but nothing has helped the Whirlpool Duet or Maytag Neptune. It appears that the noise comes from the control panel and the variable-frequency AC motor circuits.

I asked Whirlpool for their Part 15 certification, and found out by reading the regulations that they don't have to have a certification number for computer and control circuits in appliances.

While these front-loading, computer-controlled washing machines are on the higher end of the price range right now, it is my belief that this new generation of washers is going to produce noise on a tremendous scale as consumers begin to demand them and prices come down. I believe that the manufacturers are exploiting a loophole in Part 15, and one that isn't even mentioned in the ARRL's Part 15 page. See Part 15.103, "Exempted Devices":

Sec. 15.103 Exempted devices.

The following devices are subject only to the general conditions of operation in Sec. Sec. 15.5 and 15.29 and are exempt from the specific technical standards and other requirements contained in this part. The operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected. Although not mandatory, it is strongly recommended that the manufacturer of an exempted device endeavor to have the device meet the specific technical standards in this part.


(d) A digital device utilized exclusively in an appliance, e.g., microwave oven, dishwasher, clothes dryer, air conditioner (central or window), etc.

So, in summary, I believe that we are headed for an onslaught of RFI from washing machines.


WA5ZNU

Here are the details for my Whirlpool Duet.

  • Here is the sound on 20m in one frequency, with the washer spinning and stopping. This is just one of the noises it makes, and not the worst (see the specifics below).
  • When it's off, there's still broadband noise coming from the switching power supply. It seems to be radiated through the front panel. It also makes discrete noise that I can hear 4 feet away on an FM broadcast radio, even when the unit is off.
  • When it's on and the motor is running, it makes a tremendous racket, about every 17 KHz, with bands of noise. This noise too seems to radiate most strongly from the front panel.
  • There is to be some broad noise during operation, but the strongest most of the noise is concentrated in at intervals. One set of noises repeats as follows, during spinning and some times filling: 14.005 14.022 14.03750 14.053 14.070 14.085 14.10250 14.11750 14.13250 14.18250 14.19750. Another weird, different noise was at 7.57760

Whirlpool has sent me a new motor and control unit to install and see if the problem is particular to my unit, but they said there were no hardware changes in the parts at all. Unfortunately I've been unable to this because the washer is now in storage during construction work, and I'm trying to decide whether to get a new washer.

Spectrum Images

The images below are waterfall images from my PSK program connected to two different receivers. Note that the band starts out quiet, with weak PSK signals present, and then gets a broad noise, followed by discrete bands of "carriers" at multiple frequencies, which then shift and move, and finally stop.

K2 Images

  • This image shows operation just before the washer started. 7.030-k2-clear:
    Clear
  • This shows the noise of the washer starting, fairly quiet before any mechanical action. 7.030-k2-washer-starting:
    starting
  • This shows the washer rotating, on a different frequency that is subject to noise. It's fairly broad at this point. 14.070-k2-washer-start-rotating:
    rotating
  • This is a weird noise (to the right of the blue lines). To the left is foreign SSB transmissions. 7.05775-817-washer-spinning3:
    spinning
  • This shows that the noise stops when the rotating stops; notice how the weak PSK signal becomes visible around 1150Hz offset. 14.070-k2-washer-stop-rotating:
    stops

FT817 Images

I switched to my FT-817 for general-coverage operations.

  • Here's a baseline with the washer on but not spinning. You can see that the broad noise is present, but there is no discrete noise. 14.070-817-washer-on:
    broad noise
  • The motor spun at different speeds during this period and you can see the see the lines vary. 14.070-817-washer-spinning:
    varying noise
  • Again, when the washer stops, weak PSK signals can be seen. 14.070-817-washer-still:
    stopping
  • When the water pump turns on, broad noise is seen. 14.070.817-washer-pump:
  • Broad noise from washer spinning at a slightly different frequency, 2KHz up. 14.072-817-washer-spinning:
  • But it gets worse at the same frequency with spinning. 14.072-817-washer-spinning2:
  • Again visible 7.75KHz up but a little quieter. 14.0775-817-washer-spinning:
  • The pump made some really weird noises on 40 meters. 7.045-817-washer-pump:
  • More weird pump noises on 40 meters. 7.045-817-washer-pump2:
  • Different noises on 7.060 7.060-817-washer-noise:
  • The pump again on 7.060 7.060-817-washer-pump:
  • And a weird spinning whirring that changes frequency. 7.060-817-washer-weird2:

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by ARRLFAN on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
WOW -- you have too much time on your hands ... LOL
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K1KID on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have been having the same problems with my Duet washer since I purchsed it last year. I can't operate on 20 while the wife has it running. The RFI is strong even a block away from the house. I would like to know if you ever find a solution. I have sent e mails to several Whirlpool depts but have not received a reply. I think the RFI is common to all Duet washers. Maybe I need to talk to FCC.

73 de
Carl, K1KID
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K0BG on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Well, gee. This is a case of leakage from the included CPU. Sorry to bust your whistle, but refrigerators, stoves, stand-alone ovens, coffee pots, and just about every other consumer product is going to have CPUs running them, if they don't already.

I had to open up my Whirlpool and install split beads on several of the leads to quiet it down. The large spike from the clutch solenoid was cured by a varistor and a .01 cap. I suspect the manufacturer could have made these modifications, but they're in business to make money, not squelch RFI even if we think they should by law or otherwise.

It's just more of the same stuff amateurs have been putting up with for years. It is just that more sources are popping up every day.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by N3JBH on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
By a amish washing machine. there fairly cheap no rfi problems. and last sevral years. Well second thought buy Amish everything
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by N2VPC on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Mr. Klotz has way too much time on his hands.......
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by N4VOX on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I would have submitted the information to the FCC not a website.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KR4WM on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
You shouldn't have let your wife buy one of them newfangled washing machines in the first place! Next thing you know, she's going to want shoes, then a car, and next thing you know, she'll be shopping at Wal-Mart and exchanging ideas with other wives about how to make us husbands miserable! Just trot on down to your local Ace Hardware and get her a washing board, then introduce her to a nearby stream. It'll be OK if it's only a couple of miles away from home since you probably already bought her a pair of shoes.... Oh wait! I forgot, it's 2005, not 1905!!! <WIDE DEVILISH GRIN> Just kiddin', I hope you get your RFI problem fixed... -KR4WM
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WPE9JRL on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I would suggest seeking medical/psychological help for your obsessive-compulsive disorder.

There are many medications that can easily help direct your activities toward something positive and constructive.

Seek professional help.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W1OZ on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
N2VPC- I do not think that Leigh has too much time on his hands. Instead, I think that you and ARRLFAN have never operated HF from a noisy environment so you do not appreciate the problem that Leigh is trying to solve.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W1OZ on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
WPE9JRL... You too.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K0RFD on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Part 15 is a joke.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by ARRLFAN on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Dude -- you need to lighten up ... my HF equipment is located on a seperate circuit then the utility room where the washer and dryer is -- see -- some of us rich folks actually have a house --

perhaps this is hard for someone like you that lives n a popup trailer to understand --

do I need to type slower...????

 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W1OZ on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
ARRLFAN... No doubt you have a house. My question is whether or not you have a LICENSE.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KI4BNH on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I think this hobby needs more "appliance operators" or should I say operators on appliances like Alan, KØBG.

Rather than reporting or suing folks, the man applied some supposedly common amateur knowledge & solved his own problem.

The other poster was also correct. CPU's/noisy circuits are only going to become MORE prevalent. Time for us to learn how to use 'dem beads like we're supposed to. I bet a lot of us could improve our HF environ considerably! Well done Alan, good post.
Doug KI4BNH
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K2UP on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Well folks,
You can argue that Mr. Klotz has too much time on his hands, etc., but the RFI from these new washing machines is a horrible fact and bodes badly for the future.

As others have pointed out, potentially RF noisy CPUs are coming to every appliance in the house, and the FCC seems unconcerned.

My Kenmore Elite HE3 spews absolutely tremendous RFI across the entire HF spectrum. And WIPES OUT reception on all bands - in every corner of my house. Grounding did no good. If an AC filter doesn't help, I will have to take it apart and start putting in ferrite beads, filters and other remedies. My wife loves that washing machine and will have my neck if I ruin it.

Laugh at Mr. Klotz if it amuses you.

Until your next expensive appliance turns out to be worse than your worst BPL nightmare.

73,

Rob
K2UP
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KILOWATT on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
>Dude -- you need to lighten up ... my HF equipment is located on a seperate circuit then the utility room where the washer and dryer is -- see -- some of us rich folks actually have a house --<



Precisely. Dedicated circuits to your shack and an ISOLATED ground cut down on these types of problems by about %75. When your electrical main feels a surge in amperage, every branch circuit also feels it. It's just something that most of us learn to live with.

Nothing's perfect. My shack is completely dedicated and isolated and I still get that annoying little "pop" on my receive whenever the washer kicks in. It's really no big deal. Never lasts for more than a second.

Kilowatt



 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W5GNB on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I would be CAREFUL if I were you, That new washer/dryer may be acting as a BPL REPEATER and you can get in serious trouble with the FCC if you FOOL with it!!

HIHI........

I think K0BG actually has the best idea yet, Fix it yourself!! If you wait till the manufacturer does something, you will be a VERY OLD MAN!!

73's
Gary - W5GNB




 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by NC9K on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The RFI coming off of various new appliances is bad. I've been tracking various sources at my own QTH. As for ARRLFAN's thoughtful advise, it comes with the turf:

"Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:17 AM
To: webmaster2@eham.net
Subject: eham used ID suggestion

Hello webmaster,

I am noticing alot of "cloaked" ID flames on eham
lately.

Question and suggestion for your website: In addition
to continuing to have an FCC call sign lookup, why not
also have an eham user ID lookup that is complete with
name and address like the callsign lookup is. At least that way these "cloaked" flamers will be as
identified as the licensed users of eham are.

I want to subscribe to support eham but will not until
all message poster ID's can be looked up.

Thanks,

Leland NC9K

Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Mike Gilmer, N2MG" <webmaster2@eham.net>
Reply-To: webmaster2@eham.net
Subject: Subject: eham used ID suggestion

Hi Leland,

I appreciate your concern/thoughts, but users who opt
for anonymity would never enter a real address, nor
would we ever be able to verify them as such.

We've had to ban many users who use a real call
(assuming they really are whom they say they are).

Sorry if that's unsatisfactory but that's just part of
the way of life on the Internet. It's not for
everyone.

Mike N2MG
webmaster"
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by AB8RO on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
"Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected."

Clearly the FCC intends for these devices to not cause inteference. Perhaps not everyone agrees, but it seems to me that the FCC does change the rules over time to accomodate our changing world.

If people want the part 15 rules to change at the very least you must letter the FCC know that devices are causing inteference.

"Whirlpool has sent me a new motor and control unit to install and see if the problem is particular to my unit, but they said there were no hardware changes in the parts at all.

So they are concerned about the inteference, at least enough to make some effort to solve your particular problem.

"Unfortunately I've been unable to this because the washer is now in storage during construction work, and I'm trying to decide whether to get a new washer."

I think you have an obligation to at least try it before you make such claims here on eham. Perhaps it is a waste of time but by not trying it you have given the manufacturer an out. It is a perfectly reasonable position to claim that only your unit has the problem.

You should replace the parts, take the same measurements and if they are unchanged contact whirlpool again. I think it might be important to know how far they are willing to go to solve your problem. In any case, should the problem turn out to be systematic, send the results to the FCC.

Perhaps NOTHING will come of it. But it's almost certain that nothing will come from complaining on eham.

And of course, if whirlpool can't or won't solve your problem, by all means buy another washer from someone else.

73
daryl
ab8ro
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WA5ZNU on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the supportive comments. I believe this washing machine issue is similar to the Perfect Fit electric blanket issue that surfaced a few years ago, but the manufacturer there had no exemption from Part 15. The ARRL was quite involved in getting the problem fixed at the manufacturer.

These washers are showing up everywhere now; I recently went to Sears and about half of their floor models were front-loaders that appear to have these AC motor control circuits in them. Some can probably be quieted with AC line filters, separate circuits, and good grounding. Some probably can't. Despite assertions to the contrary, I don't have enough time and money to buy a bunch of different ones and see which ones work in my house, but in the remodel I'm doing, I've added a separate laundry room with a separate AC circuit, had the AC from the panel to the subpanel redone, and had a 15-ft Ufer ground installed separately for the laundry room. I'm also going to replace the Whirlpool Duet with a top loader.

I can do all this because my wife is supportive, and she doesn't like the fact that the washer completely trashed the HF bands for me.

Also in response to the suggestion that a separate circuit would solve the problem completely, it might i the case of some models, but in my case, I use DC power only for my rigs, and there was no AC line involved, and the shack and laundry were already on separate AC circuits.

In summary, these noisy washers are coming, they have 90 minute runs cycles, and if you or your neighbors get one, be prepared for plenty of work to get HF back, and be prepared for the possibility of failure.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WA5ZNU on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
>"Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected."
Yes, I tried telling this to my wife but she just kinda laughed at me...
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WA5ZNU on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
>I think you have an obligation to at least try it before you make such claims here on eham. Perhaps it is a waste of time but by not trying it you have given the manufacturer an out. It is a perfectly reasonable position to claim that only your unit has the problem.

Whirlpool told me that I was the only person ever to report a radio interference problem with the Whirlpool Duet washer, and therefore they reasonably thought that my particular washer had perhaps gone bad. Unfortunately, I've heard from quite a few people with problems, and believe that it's a design problem, not a flaw with my particular washer. Based on the two visits I had from Whirlpool repair people before I could get through to the higher level of support, I estimate I would have to pay service of $250 to get the parts installed. Plus I have to find a place to hook them up (can't do it in the rental house, and can't do it in the house we're remodelling because it has no water, sewer, or power.).

So yes, ideally I should replace the parts with the identical parts and see if it still has the problem, but I don't believe that it's only my particular washer that has this problem, based on the reports of others.

Some brands have only conducted RFI, but this model has conducted and radiated. The only person who has told me he has a Whirlpool Duet and no problem has a tower-mounted beam 150ft away from his house...

Hey, that's an idea -- perhaps I can convince my wife we need to buy a couple more lots and put up a big tower!
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by RADIOBOB on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Well,

A problem for sure ??

How many times a week does a family do the wash ??

Maybe ham radio can take a break for a bit, during the wash.

But, aside from the “to much time on his hands” jokes, I can see a much bigger problem here.

Having just built a new house, and installed dedicated lines to the radio room I assumed I would be OK.

But now, I’m a bit worried. I have been recently listening with a my Icom R-20 handheld receiver, and one of my Kenwood stations. These radios are not in the intended radio room, but in a room over the garage ( the shack is far from being set up ). Antenna ?? for now is a 50 foot of wire. Boy was I blown away. First off, the signal strength is very low, not to be unexpected considering the antenna. Boy did I here noises. First off was the computer ( power supply and CRT ), those I can fix or replace. So I turned off and unplugged the computer set up. Sniffing around with the R-20, using the whip antenna, I scanned the bands, from DC to light ( more or less ) – full of noise. This is not good. As pointed out, I am guessing that the whole house is a RF trap. All these new ovens, washers and dryers, microwaves, automatic frig, wireless alarm systems, HVAC, thermostats, and the list goes on. I am getting the idea that the electrostatic air cleaners may be a constant problem.

I’m sure that many of these things have put out a signal in the past. I am hoping that “real” antennas will bring in a decent signal, but honestly the signal strengths of some of these “noises” are very high.

I wonder if everyone were to take off their antennas, and listen with just a hunk of wire, how much RFI from outside sources we might discover, in our own homes.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W6TH on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
.
I solved my washer RFI, sold my washer, got married, bought a scrub board.

No RFI, problem solved.

.:
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KILOWATT on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
>Question and suggestion for your website: In addition
to continuing to have an FCC call sign lookup, why not
also have an eham user ID lookup that is complete with
name and address like the callsign lookup is. At least that way these "cloaked" flamers will be as
identified as the licensed users of eham are.

I want to subscribe to support eham but will not until
all message poster ID's can be looked up.<



The only problem with that idea is that eham.net uses qrz.com's callsign database. Qrz.com has booted many legitimate hams from their database for whatever the owner's personal reasons. So if you were to look up many legitimate callsigns, they wouldn't show up on the qrz.com database.

Like the man said; the internet isn't perfect. Everyone has control over their own sandbox.

Kilowatt

 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KE7N on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I'm getting ready to move into a new house and the room where the shack will be in has unfinished walls. Does anyone have any suggestions for something to put behind the finished wall to block out RF?

Also, QRZ does not boot anyone from the database. The only time a call sign doesn't show up on QRZ is if the call sign owner has requested that it not be there.

73, Ken
KE7N
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WF7A on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
>>"Like the man said; the internet isn't perfect. Everyone has control over their own sandbox. "<<

When I was a kid I used to play in the sandbox but stopped after a while 'cause the neighborhood cats kept trying to bury me.

Actually, I envy Leigh in a way--I wish I had the equipment and time to analyze an RFI problem like that! When I told my XYL that I needed some (RF) beads, she thought I was tripping back to the 1960s. The beads did wonders for reducing--but not solving 100%--the RFI problem I was having. (The computer/timer in our water softener.)

Maybe you'll be luckier than me, Leigh: the problem I have living in the sardine-packed subdivision I'm in (along with the *^&%# CC&Rs) is that after solving RFI problems in my house, I'm still awash (sorry--couldn't resist the pun) with RFI from surrounding houses. *heavy sigh* When I win the Lotto it's a private airstrip, big antennas, and LOTS of acreage for me.

Ciao,
Rich
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KILOWATT on September 18, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
>Also, QRZ does not boot anyone from the database. The only time a call sign doesn't show up on QRZ is if the call sign owner has requested that it not be there.<



Well then I'll have to share that with a few legit hams I know who "claim" they've been booted from the database. Not being sarcastic, mind you. I'll just have to see if they "asked" to be removed from the database. It was never mentioned before. I HAVE been wrong in the past, ya' know?

Kilowatt
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by AI4IT on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Firstly, what the writer does with his time is of no concern to me nor does it negatively impact the lives of those who feel he should use his time more wisely. By virtue of even responding to this thread, I'm personally re-evaluating how I'm spending my own. I cannot sleep and hence, I'm writing out of pure boredom. I know, I shouldn't have a sleeping issue writing "blogs" about them here - not a good place or practice of my time.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W2NSF on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Oh yeah! I know exactly what you're talking about.

Electronic speed control on our Frigidaire front-loading washer used to drive me crazy in my old house. My radio shack was right there in the laundry room! This model is made by Electrolux of England and is probably the lowest priced front-loader made. It's sold under the Sears Kenmore, GE, and several other brands. But I digress...

Now that I've moved my shack into the garage, which is separate from the house, the noise from the washer doesn't seem to get as far as my radios anymore. But, I haven't hooked up my HF vertical, yet. I'll reserve judgement until I do, but for now the problem is gone.

Until then, I suggest we start documenting these problems and get papers on file with the FCC with specific model numbers, etc. Maybe eventually the offending manufacturers will be forced to correct the problems.
73,
Jim
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by NB9D on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
This is interesting. I have been battling RFI at all hours of the day and night that is as loud as S9+20 at times on several bands, particularly 40 & 30. I have had the power company come out and they have eliminated the lines and ground connections as a source. Now, after reading what others experience, I can understand that fixing the problem may be a lost cause. I have walked around my house and nearby with a portable shortwave receiver and the noise is pretty general. I even dropped out the main in my house so I know it is not internal. My rig's noise blanker reduces the noise to a bearable level, but any signals less than about S5 are just not intelligible enough to work. Glad I am not the only one with this problem. This is definitely not a joking matter for many of us.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W9WHE-II on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

This is all Geogre Bush's fault and the response by FEMA to this chisis has been a dismal failure!

All kidding aside, try these solutions:

1) Copper or aluminum foil to the inside of the plastic cover (and housing) then ground it to the chassis.

2)AC line filter.

3) Double check the ground in the outlet.

Good luck,
W9WHE
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by AA4PB on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Some brands have only conducted RFI, but this model has conducted and radiated. The only person who has told me he has a Whirlpool Duet and no problem has a tower-mounted beam 150ft away from his house...
---------------------------------------------------
Are you sure that its not conducted into the internal wiring and radiated from that? The PC boards don't usually have runs long enough to radiate a lot of HF energy from them. Ferrite beads on the wires exiting the PCB may help.

Actually moving the antenna away from the house can solve a lot of RFI problems *if you can do that*. My tower and antennas are 100 Ft from the house/shack. I don't hear any RFI from anything in the house, not even the computer sitting right next to the radio.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KI6LO on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
How can you be operating 20M and doing the wash at the same time. My wife won't let me do that. If I have spare time between washes, I have to vacuum and that makes too much noise to hear the QRM on 20M from the washer.

Kidding aside, you most probably going to find that most people and manufacturers outside the ham radio community could care less about QRM to your receiver. And unless the Gov't, FCC or some legal proceeding REQUIRES them to make amends, they aren't going to fix it. They're in business to make $$$ not spend $$$ on extra research to make a ham's life easier.

Good Luck,

Gene KI6LO
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WB2WIK on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Many places will never experience this problem.

When we visited my XYLs family in the Philippines recently, for example, I noted that although fairly "well off" for their community, they didn't have a washing machine or dryer at all. "Why not?" I asked.

Simple answer: A maid costs much less, and they have a maid.

Maybe we Americans might learn something from this philosophy. Stop buying fancy labor-saving equipment. Hire human help instead. Reduces RFI and unemployment at the same time!

Had to say it.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by AA4PB on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Lets see, what is minimum wage in the U.S. - $6.00 per hour plus 1/2 of social security plus workman's comp insurance. A washer/dryer is less expensive and (even with the RFI) less trouble than dealing with all the government red tape :-)
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WB2WIK on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
There is no minimum wage for domestic help, as negotiated compensation can be simply "room and board," as it is with many Au Pairs. Perfectly legal.

(Actually, there's no minimum wage for many types of employment if they don't fall under ICC rules.)

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WA5ZNU on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
>Are you sure that its not conducted into the internal wiring and radiated from that? The PC boards don't usually have runs long enough to radiate a lot of HF energy from them. Ferrite beads on the wires exiting the PCB may help.

An AM broadcast band radio picked up the noise at the front panel strongly, but vastly reduced from the sides. It picked up little noise from the power plug area itself, except some fuzz from the switching supply (which was minimal compared to the operating noise). I put an AC line filter in place (a small one, from Radio Shack) and saw no difference. If I had heard noise coming from the plug area, I would have tried a bigger one, grounded to the chassis, at the point where the power cable entered the washer.

W2NSF above reports conducted noise from a Frigidare. I stopped by a friend's house (not a ham), and his Frigidare model has minimal radiated noise, none from the control panel, and only from the front glass window area if I stick the antenna probe into that recessed area. However, if I ground the antenna to the AC junction box, it's extremely noisy, same motor control noise. I suspect it would be possible to quiet the Frigidare's conducted noise with sufficient brute force filtering, good short grounds, and possibly an FT240-77 or two around the power cable. Good luck to you OM's who have one of those, and please report back if you have success.

Personally, though, we're going to buy an old-style top-loader with gears and pulleys, since it's what we have in the rental house and it's not a problem. I'm voting with my pocketbook, and saving money and my own labor to boot.

>Actually moving the antenna away from the house can solve a lot of RFI problems *if you can do that*. My tower and antennas are 100 Ft from the house/shack. I don't hear any RFI from anything in the house, not even the computer sitting right next to the radio.

My lot is 50' wide at the front and 100' wide at the back, and the back is a power line right-of-way. You're right though, putting the antenna 150' away on a tower seemed to fix the problem for one OM I heard from.
 
Kenmore HE3  
by AD1C on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
We bought a Kenmore HE3 in July and have been experiencing the same RFI problems as others. I have not yet had time to do anything about it.

There is some related info on the RFI reflector at http://list.contesting.com/_rfi/
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KV6O on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Yuck! Maybe those hams that we see at swap meets that haven’t washed in a while are on to something…

Looks like you’ll have to make your washroom a Faraday cage to keep things clean!

SteveL
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by VE6SDW on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Ref:Ken KE7N

"Does anyone have any suggestions for something to put behind the finished wall to block out RF? "

Yes Ken I lived in an old house (1952) for a while, it had plaster and lath walls. The builder had put metal mesh on the lath to help hold the plaster.

My point, my cell phone did not work in the house.
If you put up metal mesh under the dry wall and ground it you would get the same effect.

Best of luck if you give it a shot.

73's Stephen
VE6SDW
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K3SUI on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
First BPL ... now washing machines ... where will it stop !! Actually, my problem is my Sony LCD Hi-def TV in the living room. It KILLS 40 meters.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by X-WB1AUW on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the article, and the detective work.

Bob
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by G1OXD on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Interesting problem. In the UK we have been using front loading washers for many years. I decided to look and see what my own Bosh device produces. The washer is not a major problem but the dish washer produces some serious RFI. Its all over the place particularly as it moves between stages in the program. Fortunately I rarely use the dish washer before about 0200hrs as the electricity is low cost at this time of the day in the UK so its on a timer!

Regards
Simon
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KB8ASO on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have a Kenmore dishwasher basic model NOT a high end unit that wipes out .5 thru 30 Mhz, 20 over S9! Rig grounded and running on batteries. Will be putting beads and filters on the motor speed controller. This unit uses a mechanical timer to boot! Do you think that your neighbor will allow you to disassemble their working appliance to allow you to RFI proof it? Better start blasting letters to the FCC.

Randy AB9GO
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W7SMJ on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I would echo the observations of great detective work! It would appear that this could become a larger problem in the future especially if there is indeed a loophole in Part 15. I think that point is being missed and/or glossed over in most of the posts...
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W8KQE on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Does the FCC even care any more when it comes to RFI caused by 'noisy' consumer products? Ham Radio isn't the only radio service that is affected!
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W8NSI on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
WPE9JRL said:
> I would suggest seeking medical/psychological help for >your obsessive-compulsive disorder.

>There are many medications that can easily help direct >your activities toward something positive and >constructive.

>Seek professional help.


Just curious... what kind of call sign is WPE9JRL? Is that one of those "freebander" call signs?

Looks like the usual trolls are active in here with lots of criticism and no help!

I solved several problems of this sort by getting into the guts of the equipment and placing ferrite beads on all leads coming out of the case. In one instance there was a plastic front that I lined with foil that overlapped the metal case. At the overlaps I made sure that the foil crimped between the case and the front. It works!
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W8NSI on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
K3SUI Said:
>First BPL ... now washing machines ...
>where will it stop !!
>Actually, my problem is my Sony LCD
>Hi-def TV in the living room. It KILLS 40 meters.

Get some of the split ferrite rf choke cores from Radio Shack that have the snap-close plastic covers. Put one on each lead to and from the TV including the power lead, and cable tv or satelite lead if you have that. I did this to 3 televisions here and cleaned up my 40 meter interference from that source. It works best if they are close to the connectors right at the back of the set where the leads plug in. The worst offender here was the large screen tv in the living room right above my shack.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K9OZ on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Great article, in my opinion.
I have an early Neptune -- it has some other problems, but no RFI that I can hear. I've spent a lot of time chasing RFI here in the house, only to find the worst generator was a 1950s floor lamp I inherited from my parents. I spent weeks chasing RFI, then unplugged the lamp one day while doing something else. RFI was gone.

 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KX8N on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I hope none of your neighbors buy a plasma TV, because you'd probably have a nervous breakdown.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W5LSD on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It's going codeless and theoryless.....
the future is CB so if you are a real ham you are lucky to have the QRN cover up the dismantlement of your previous hobby.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WA6BFH on September 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

Ok, I was not going to contribute any comment to this thread but, if you guys think that basically throwing trash in our spectrum is just -- the normal daily slings and arrows -- then you deserve what you get!

If typical daily devices turn out to be contributors to the RF noise floor, than you should be concerned. Other countries (like Japan) would not allow the import of such devices into their country. So, what are you going to do?

Do you know how to assess this? Do you know how to make a cognitive response?
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by AA8SH on September 20, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Leigh,

I've read all the posts so far and no one has mentioned the MFJ-1025. Fellows, I know it's not a fix, and in fact, I think the men who advise methods of eliminating the noise at the machine are on the right track, but in the meantime, I can assure you that an MFJ-1025 would get you back on the air. You may not hear weakest signal DX as before, but the 1025 will eliminate the vast majority of any single noise source, including this washing machine, giving you back most of the low noise floor you had, thereby giving you time to come up with a real fix as you are able. It's the best single equipment investment I've ever made and is limited in effectiveness only by may ability to get a noise sensing anteena close to the offending noise source. I make mention of this because as others have rightly observed, these issues are likely to increase in the future. With a 1025 on the desk and a GOOD sensing antenna, no matter what happens in your neighborhood--TV, line noise, or someone's newest appliance, you will have a tool to get you through the QSO.

This thing uses a set of adjustable unity gain RF amps to mix the signal from your main antenna with that of a "noise sensing antenna", which should ideally be picking up all noise, no desired signal. You set the noise level of the noise antenna to the same value of the noise you have on the main antenna, then rotate the "phase" knob to null the noise out--that's it. It will remove pretty much all of any SINGLE noise source. It can't handle more than one noise source at a time, but it will remove virtually all of any single noise. That will get you through the next contest.

Clark AA8SH
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W9LBB on September 20, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Add to the list of RF noise generators the Frigidaire
"Gallery" front loader.

I'm into "Premium" receivers rather heavily (Racal &
Watkins Johnson). My shack is on a seperate AC circuit,
and for receiver protection ALL of my Premiums are
thru an ex-medical AC isolation transformer. Before the
power gets to it, there's a "brick" power filter in the
line, and the receivers use a seperate, isolated ground
(mostly there for antenna surge protection on the panel
of Polyphaser protectors, but also to break up ground
loops). With all this, and the Faraday shield in the
isolation transformer, garbage levels dropped in a most
satisfying manner.

Transmitters, computers, etc in the shack all get thier
powere from the "dirty" side of the power line, and use
thier own grounding, completely isolated from the
receiver ground.

I've gone to extremes here, mainly to reduce noise on
LF / VLF; cleaning up HF is a side benefit.

The Frigidaire washer blows right through it all. We're
talking S9+ 40DB levels of the wierdest noises you've
ever heard, starting at the low end of the AM broadcast
band and going up from there.

The first time I encountered the processor crud my
initial thought was that there was a miltiary exercise
going on that included jamming, and it had gotten out
of hand! It seemed like most of the "signals" centered
on OTHER signals already on the air; this has since
been identified as intermod between the processor crud
and the incoming signals (source of the intermod has
not yet been identified).

Let me also point out that there are numerous other
appliances here that are microprocessor controlled, and
they're ALL effectively filtered out of the receivers.


As for the idea that the original poster "has too much
time on his hands"... that's BS. If you haven't been
in the center of this mess, you don't know just how bad
it can get. It's time for the philosophy that a "market
driven" system should operate under minimal restriction
should have SOME limitations placed on it. These damned
things are BAD NEWS!!!

 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by W5HTW on September 20, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Do they not sell electric washy machiny things anymore? I have one. Works beautifully. Washes clothes. Goes through a rinse cycle. Works off 120 vac. No computer, no Echolink. Just plain old washing machine. Programmable washing machine? If I have to stand there and program it, I can instead be putting clothes and soap into it. Why does it have to be programmable? Will it send email to Billy Gates? Does it operate an automatic antenna tuner? Does it send Morse code? Can it work DX? What is a programmable washing machine? Does it examine the clothes and figure out how much water to add? Does it wash each item separately? Why does everything in the whole &@#%$@ world have to be "programmable?"

My refrigerator self defrosts, on a timer. Keeps food cold, meats frozen. No "programmable" there. Sure, it's almost 14 years old, but it works the way it was intended to work. My electric dryer dries. Put clothes in, set temp, push button. No "progmrammable" there? Is this like bottled water and Starbucks? Someone told us it was the "in" thing to do, gotta drink imported Austrian cow crap coffee, and drink dollar per pint water. So now we have everything in the $@#@*@ world run by computer?

If my washing machine goes bad, I open it up, find out what's wrong, buy the correct part, install it, close the machine up, and do the laundry. Same with the dryer. And same with my other refrigerator, in the garage - when the thermost went bad, I bought a new one and fixed the darned thing. No "programmable."

My vacuum cleaner has no computer. My can opener has no computer. My gas stove has no computer. My water heater (electric) has no computer, but is on a timer. My coffe maker has no computer. They all work. They all do what they are supposed to do. They can all be repaired or replaced, whatever I decide I need at the moment. We're gonna need a computer to tell us when to wipe our butts, and if our butts need wiping, what kind of paper, how many sheets, and dispense it please. What is with this &%$@#+ computer crap? We can't turn on a light without a computer. We need a computer to tell us where the TV remote is, and how to reach it.

I have all "real applicances" just like I have all "real radios." And they work.

And not ONE of them blanks out 20 meters.

Ed
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K0SEP on September 20, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The FCC is only about making money. Since when do they have the right to "sell" the frequency spectrum? They do have the legal authority to "regulate" the spectrum, but not sell it. If they were concerned about RFI, they would enforce correction of the interfering products. Small microprocessors do not have to generate RFI - it may cost a bit more to add some intelligent design, a bit of shielding, etc., but that is all part of gaining benefit from computer control of appliances, etc. There is no way a washing machine "needs" a microprocessor, it is just that they are cheaper than mechanical timers! Greed by both manufacturers and the FCC is the root cause of all this interference.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by K0SEP on September 20, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The FCC is only about making money. Since when do they have the right to "sell" the frequency spectrum? They do have the legal authority to "regulate" the spectrum, but not sell it. If they were concerned about RFI, they would enforce correction of the interfering products. Small microprocessors do not have to generate RFI - it may cost a bit more to add some intelligent design, a bit of shielding, etc., but that is all part of gaining benefit from computer control of appliances, etc. There is no way a washing machine "needs" a microprocessor, it is just that they are cheaper than mechanical timers! Greed by both manufacturers and the FCC is the root cause of all this interference.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KB9YGD on September 20, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Nice article.Well ya think thats bad i have verizon for my isp and have adsl and a westel wirespeed dual connect adsl modem and man this thing is a noise maker.You can work dx with this dam thing.If i do anything on 40 meters i have to unplug it.Its to bad that manufacturers are allowed to make junk like this.T*-he airwaves are polluted as it is.73,Norm.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KC2MMI on September 20, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Leigh, you might want to pursue this as a general warranty issue rather than an FCC/Part15 issue.

Check out http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm for information about the Magnusson-Moss Act and the Uniform Commercial Code regarding an implied warranty of fitness of use. It can get into legalese and the exact answers will depend on your *state* laws as well as federal laws and whatever contracts, warranties, or other writings you have with the washer/drier.

Basically, unless the maufacturer gave you advance warning about problems or made certain legal waivers, you have a right to expect the machine to work in the environment it was sold for (your home) without creating problems. Well...home environments include ham radios, and this washer apparently can't co-exist in peace with them. You might be able to ask (or force) the maker to take back the machine and give you a full refund of all costs--if they won't fix it. These things depend on which side of the bed your local small claims judge, consumer affairs department, etc. woke up on. But it certainly is worth a try, because when you use the right magic words most manufacturers will knuckle down and do what they have to in order to avoid larger problems--like class action suits and federal warranty interventions.

 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by N4JBK on September 21, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I appreciate this man taking time to track down what could be a wide spread problem, do it with such detail, and then presenting it here. It is just a shame that such mental midgets such as this wpe9 or whatever name he or she hides behind has nothing better to do than to throw around terms that they heard from their own doctors. Now....lemme go check my washing machine.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WA5ZNU on September 21, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for all the supportive comments. And thank you to eHam for giving this issue some play.
I've sent email to a few of you with some reports, but a lot of it came back. Anyway, please be on the lookout for these washers in your neighborhood (or house, hi hi) and please continue to share your experiences in mitigation, and which models can be queted the most. Maybe one day we can get them quieted by the manufacturers. 73 es GL, Leigh / WA5ZNU http://wa5znu.org
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WB8UHZ on September 21, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have the Neptune, the noise is terrible. With just the Sony 2010 80 feet away the noise was full scale with the whip antenna.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WB8UHZ on September 21, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have the Neptune, the noise is terrible. With just the Sony 2010 80 feet away the noise was full scale with the whip antenna.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by VE6IV on September 21, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Leigh,
thank you for a fine article. I can certainly sympathize as I have been fighting a similar problem with the neighbors Maytag (Neptune) for some time. While I have alleviated some of the worst interference I have since noted several other sources of this same type of interference in the neighborhood. More leaky washers..
For those that discount the value of this work, I hope you’ve socked away hundreds of dollars in the operating kitty and are prepared to retro-fit all your neighbors new washing machines and other such devices that employ this technology. To date it has cost me aprox $40.00 - $50.00 on this one machine alone. Multiply this by [x] as your [.5km r neighbours] start swapping out their old workhorses for these new wideband RF generators. Remember, this is radiated rf for the most part. Unless you can null the signal out with a directional antenna or phase cancel you are going to be dead in the water. This is assuming a single source interferer, and one which is not accessible to you for retrofit. Don't expect the equipment manufacturer to cover this problem under warranty either. In a few isolated cases it sounds like the complainant hit the right nerve with the manufacturer and they were afforded some consideration in the way of replacement electronics. It certainly was not the case in my dealings. No technical assistance was ever offered.
I have filed a formal complaint with Industry Canada who, as a result, is evaluating the interference potential and any recourse. It is my understanding that some discussions apparently have taken place between Maytag and IC re their product. I am awaiting a response from IC and plan to address this in a letter to the Federal Minister. I strongly encourage everyone similarly affected to please do the same. There needs to be concerted pressure brought to bear on regulators to demand tighter enforcement of current regulations and to identify the large loop-holes that are being employed by manufactures to skirt (not simply washing machines), minimum RFI standards on consumer goods.

 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by N4EKV on September 22, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
After buying a front-loading Kenmore HE3t I also experienced strong rfi during washing. I solved the great majority of it with an A/C line filter from Filter Concepts (http://www.filterconcepts.com/ac/sf_series.html), found inexpensively on Ebay. The filter is in-line with the washer's power cord, with no alteration whatsoever to the washer.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KD5BFE on September 22, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have an easy solution to this problem.

Don't operate while the washer is running. IF you still have noise issues, flip the breaker for the washer's circuit.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by N7UQA on September 22, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
This is why I opt for appliances with mechanical timers. Not only are the cheaper and more reliable, they do not create a sea of RFI. Some of these newer appliances use programmable variable frequency drive controllers for the motors. We use these on several machines where I work and they create huge amounts of RFI that invariably becomes conducted on the power wires on both sides of the unit.
The best way to combat this is to get rid of the appliance, because you will be filtering till the cows come home only to make a small dent in the interference level.


Craig - N7UQA
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WD9FUM on September 23, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, very interesting. The only "appliance" problem I ever had was from a hot water heater in an apartment I lived in. Good luck with a solution.
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by AD7DB on September 24, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Amazing! A ham that actually washes his clothes! Wait til the people at the hamfest hear about this!!
 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by KC0TAR on September 25, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have a new LG Front Load washer & dryer set a mere 15 feet from the shack- essentially in the same room. I haven't noticed a speck of noise coming from either unit, and they have very fancy electronic controls.

Just a hint for those looking to buy a new front loader.

 
RE: Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by WD40 on September 27, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Hey! Our distant relatives would go months without a bath. It's only recently that society deems us outcasts dare we miss a daily bath or two. Do you realize the amount of skin cells that are lost during a bath? Something like a few million or so I've read. I don't own a washing machine but have chosen to use a more environmentally friendly device, a wooden washboard. Uses no electricity and produces zero RFI.
They last forever and the best part if you flip em over, you can eat off them.
 
Washing Machine RFI -- A Tidal Wave?  
by N2XPH on September 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
This issue is not about which appliances a person should or shouldn't be using when someone else is on the air, nor is it about going back to the appliances of old that don't have RFI problems, nor is it about money and politics, the issue speaks directly to the prevention of RFI into the RF spectrum.

The FCC should take action on this agreeably to its defined purpose. Their allegiance is not to manufacturers it is to the users of the radio spectrum. As for those who disagree on this and hoot and howl about this, channel your energy towards your elected representatives and the FCC, not on fellow radio enthusiasts.

Within a decade we will have microprocessors in almost everything, each one along with its power supply and various peripherals will add to the spectrum.

Imagine trying to get a dozen neighbors to haved a 'noise kit' installed because their new TV interferes with your HF transmission! Anyone who's dealt with RFI and has had a neighbor involved knows what I'm saying -- they won't (all) comply, nor will they feel they should.

This problem belongs in the FCC's lap before it gathers more momentum. Manufacturer's are not going to be happy, that's a given.
We need a legal requirement on noise limitations of all electronic devices - those built within the USA as well as those imported. It looks as though part 15 needs to be revisited asap by everyone affected by it.

73's
 
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