RFI from Alarm System
J.T. Mitchell (VE6JTM)
on
October 2, 2005
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RFI from Alarm system:
The article on washing machine noise convinced me to share some problems with my alarm system. The first problem was with a DSC system, it was very sensitive to RF from my transmitter, it would go into alarm and the only way to stop the alarm was to remove all power including the battery. The installer/service rep assured me that they had seen this type of problem before and the solution was to replace it with a system that was immune to RF. This main panel was replaced along with the keypads with a unit called "Alarm Force", I think made by Honeywell. It had very similar problems with going into alarm when transmitting. These problems were due to the "smoke detector" (replaced it) then installed the mod for the new smoke detector and that problem went away. The next problem was with the keypads. They would lock up. They (the alarm company) installed ferrite chokes on the lines at the keypad, fixed that problem. This was done at the request of the manufacture and the manufacture sent the chokes. They get points for that. Perhaps this is a known problem.
The current problem is that the control panel radiates. I had always thought that the noise (birdies for lack of a better name) I hear was from my computers. The last severe weather in the southeastern USA had me listing on 14.325, which was where one of the birdies was. Well time to find it. -- So off with all computers and out with the handheld on AM on 14.325. Well I found it and it was the alarm panel. It is worth noting that the signal is strong enough to be heard in my car about 75 meters from the house.
I sent a facsimile to the local dealer and to the manufacture. I suggested that the design engineer should go back to the college where he was educated and ask for his money back as they have failed in providing him with a proper education. There is no good reason (other than poor design and/or poor manufacturing) to make a unit, which causes interference like this. My local alarm company has contacted the manufacturer to find a solution. Time will tell.
I would be interested if any one else has had similar problems. I may be contacted at: mitch@andor.net
Mitch, VE6OH
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RFI from Alarm System
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by ZS1DX on October 2, 2005
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Hi Mitch, I have the same problem as you. My alarm panels, as well as the motion detectors, radiate RF noise. On 40m to 10m the birdies are very faint and don't bother me. But in order to work CW DX on 80m and 160m I have to turn the alarm completely off. For this purpose I have a remote switch that disables the mains power and battery power to the alarm unit. Also, my key panels beep in sync with my QRO CW transmissions on 80m when the alarm is on. I have a Caddx Ranger 8600 system. 73 Chris
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by N1IPU on October 2, 2005
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My alarm system (german shephard) has no birdies at all.
A lot more effective too.
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RFI from Alarm System
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by AD5X on October 2, 2005
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I also have a DSC alarm system, but I don't have any problems. However, as soon as it was installed, I added 0.01uf bypass capacitors across all the inputs and outputs on the main panel. Maybe this took care of any potential problems. I did this on my Music & Sound intercom system as well (0.01uf caps across the remote inputs and outputs both on the main unit and the remotes) which eliminated problems with my signal getting into the intercom system.
Phil - AD5X
www.ad5x.com
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by KG4RUL on October 2, 2005
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Mine is an ADT Wireless System. I have never had a bit of trouble with it. Let's face it, wires act as antennas.
Dennis KG4RUL
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by K4JF on October 2, 2005
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I'm having a problem with an alarm system, too. In my secondary location, any HF signals over about 20 watts come in loud and clear on the alarm speaker. Capacator across the speaker terminals no help, toroid on the leads no help. Problems: second floor shack, attic dipole, and speaker leads run across attic. I reoriented the antenna with no change.
I'm about ready to call the alarm company and say: "Hey, this is supposed to be an alarm, not a short wave receiver. Come fix it."
Anybody have this problem?
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by KA4KOE on October 2, 2005
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As an engineer who regularly designs such systems, part of the solution, although expensive, is to avoid those types that combine home security as part of their function (read dirt cheap). Bargain basement prices come at a cost---read poor design and wide open both ways to RF. One of my ham friends cannot operate on 160m since he has the WAFA award for his block (worked all fire alarms).
The main players (big 3) in the fire alarm market are
Simplex
Notifier
Edwards Systems Technologies
Expensive....even their small zoned panels. Excellent product support, though. There is generally someone you can call in the area if you have problems, who probably has at least a NICET Level 2 licensure.
Other lesser known brands...
Gamewell
Silent Knight
Honeywell
Wheelock
Good luck.
PHILIP
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by VA6SZ on October 2, 2005
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Mitch, very interesting. I have had no such problems here. I believe I have a system similar to yours. With 4 smoke detectors, 2 CO2 detectors, 15 or so door and window sensors, glass break sensor, and 4 motion detectors with infared sensors. I have operated QRO on all bands from 160m to 70cms and have not gotten into my system. Also, I do EME work on 2m and 6m (and need a quiet environment), and have not noticed any birdies from the alarm system (as well as on HF). My panel is made by a company called "Demco". My system has a rather large battery back-up with intermittant charging system. Again, no problems here.
Good luck finding the source of your problems.
de Andy VA6SZ
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by K9ZMD on October 2, 2005
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In 1993, I only had an attic dipole. Our new DSC system chirped a bit when I operated, but no serious problems (I thought). It was my QRP CW signal on 30 Meters that triggered the DSC system into a silent panic alarm. The system also seized the telephone line for over 30 minutes, so my first hint of trouble came from the two Sheriff's Deputies at the front door. The next working day, the alarm company techs scratched their heads a bit before replacing the CPU and connecting a ground wire to it. When I next worked 30 Meter CW, the alarm system didn't seize the phone line as long, so the security company was able to let me know the Deputies were enroute. After that, I stopped working 30 Meters until I got an outside antenna.
Currently, I hear the alarm panel chirp on occasions, especially when I am on 30 Meters, even though I always run less than 50 Watts. My efforts to solve the problem with ferrite beads have only been half-hearted and totally unsuccessful; there's just too many long wires hooked to that CPU. If anyone has fully solved the problem with their DSC system, I'd sure like to hear from them.
Gary Allen, K9ZMD insertmycall@amsat.org
Palmdale, CA
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by W5GNB on October 2, 2005
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Well, I live WAY out in the country and I have pleanty of DOGS and GUNS!! I also have a CAT that would just as soon KICK your butt rather than look at you HIHI!
No need for any of that poorly designed alarm crap here.
The ham bands are VERY QUIET as well!! (except for the constant barage of CONTESTERS!!)
73's
Gary - W5GNB
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by K0BG on October 2, 2005
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Part of the problem with radiated RFI is caused by the requisite wires acting as antennas. My previous home was equipped with a Moose system, and even an HT would set it off. I bypassed every connection with .01 caps. The power supply required a split bead in addition to the cap. These treatments reduced the hash and birdies to near nothing, and the RF tripping never happened again.
Hindsight is always 100%, so in my current house, all of the alarm wiring is shielded, bypassed, and the controls installed in metal boxes. It has never false tripped, and the hash and RFI non-existant. Live and learn, they say.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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by LNXAUTHOR on October 2, 2005
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- had the exact opposite of the problem posited by the article...
- transmissions at the 30W level or highter on certain freqs in the 20M and 75M band would set off my ADT system, summoning the local FD (one minute to respond with trucks! i donated $100 to their war chest)...
- needless to say i avoided those freqs... due to physical location of shack, feedlines, and antenna i was stuck! (followed all the rules, isolated feedlines, used artificial ground on 2nd floor shack, etc.)...
- called in ADT, who said the problem was 'dust in detectors,' 'spider webs,' and so on... the technicians on-line, on the phone, and in person were clueless (i knew what the problem was, but didn't want to expend the time or energy trying to deal with the company)...
- my solution? discontinue ADT service... i not only saved $30 a month, but no longer had to worry about setting off alarms... (the problem was with fire detection, NOT intrusion)...
:-)
- btw, i have since moved, have an in-house fire detection alarm system, and regularly use my HF amp with no problems!
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by KC8VWM on October 2, 2005
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My previous home was equipped with a Moose system, and even an HT would set it off.
Ok, I've heard of German Shepards, cats, and even birds used for home security before but... "Moose."
???
:)
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by THERAGE on October 2, 2005
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No need for a Moose. My lab works just fine...and he doesn't mind my HT, or my Swan ;-)
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by K3AN on October 2, 2005
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At a prior QTH, I had an HAI (Home Automation Inc) system that included security, HVAC control and lighting control via X-10. The problem I had was wideband buzzy signals throughout the upper HF bands. I determined the problem to be the data signals between the LCD display keypads and the main panel. I installed .005 uf caps across the data pair inside the panel and that pretty much cleared up the noise.
At a more recent QTH, I had a DSC system and was only bothered by discrete, stable, mostly weak carriers, primarily in the 10 and 12 meter bands. Neither system was impacted by my HF operation at the 100 Watt level. With the DSC, my antenna was a random wire on the roof, which put it very close to the sensor and keypad wire runs in the attic.
I now live out in the country. I'm in in a gated community where no one has an alarm system. I had forgotten how wonderful it is to live in an RF-quiet environment.
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by VK4DGG on October 2, 2005
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I don't have anything in my home except smoke alarms, and they seem to be OK. However, I have noticed that as I mobile around, there are many security alarms that affect both VHF and HF radios in my mobile. Also, the auto door openers that are common on business doors here in Australia really come through with a blast. Parking close to one of these brings a loud buzz on both types of rig. I get the same affect when driving by stores that front the street fairly close. RF pollution it is. I feel that it is going to get worse, especially in countries that do not require government acceptance for electronic devices for emission control.
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by W4CNG on October 2, 2005
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Yes the wired alarm systems are a real pain. I have one of the DCS Systems, replaced 2X, Fire loops disabled (the fire loop is armed 24/7) and it still will go off on 75/40/20/10 meters SSB/CW/PSK, running 1KW into Attic Antenna system. (Wired systems with Attic Antennas do not co-exist very well, I will not invest in a Wireless System nor remove the Attic Antenna System). Final solution, turn it off, cancel monitoring contract, insure the 9V batteries that back-up the 4 Smoke detectors in the 3 level home work. All other problems taken care of using weapons secured all over the house. Locks on all doors and windows are secure. Want to see if you can find one before I do? I also believe in the old posting, "House protected by Shotgun Carrying Owner 23.5 hours a day, Which 30 minutes do you want to come in and play"?
Steve W4CNG
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by VE7CVQ on October 2, 2005
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I have a similar problem. When I transmit anywhere on the 20 meter band, and it doesn't matter whether it's CW or SSB, my three battery powered smoke alarms in the house go off.
It doesn't happen on any other band, just good old 20 meters.
Simple answer.......don't use 20 meters :-)
73
Bill
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by WA1RNE on October 2, 2005
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VE6JTM;
You don't say what type of antennas you're using, power levels, grounds, etc. which may offer some additional insight for us.
Interestingly, there seems to be some "commonality" between others who replied to your article: attic antennas in close proximity to alarm wiring.
This can be similar to running 100 watts or more to a 6 meter attic dipole 20 feet away from your VHF TV antenna.....it's bound to be a problem on channel 2.
That can be a tough nut to crack surely not impossible.
WA1RNE
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by K4SFC on October 3, 2005
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Guys, guys, this problem has been well publized for several years now. It pays to do a little research BEFORE purchase. It you don't make time to research, you will make time when the "bugs" hit you.
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by K2FP on October 3, 2005
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I had a problem with my keypad "beepers" going off in synch with my transmitted signal. This happened on many bands. Since all three keypads at different locations always triggered together, I suspected that culprit was the signal getting into the panel.
I used an MFJ805 RFI sniffer to confirm this. I measured the RFI around the leads inside the panel. Readings on most pairs and cable groups (from zones, keypads, etc) were off scale! As pointed out earlier, a couple of hundered feet of wire draped around the house makes a good antenna.
I disconnected one pair (a zone not the keypad), took a rather large 43 Type Ferrite toroid, and wrapped two turns of that pair around the toroid (all that the length of the pair would allow). I repeated the measurement with the RFI sniffer, and the signal, while still strong, was considerably attenuated compared to the "no toroid" measurement. Looked like the toroid may help.
To maximize the attenuation, I spliced a couple of feet to the pair, and ran MANY turns around the toroid. The result - almost total supression of the RFI as measured by the sniffer.
I repeated this for all the pairs (yes - a lot of wiring and winding). I used multiple toroids. The toroids were large enough so that one toroid accommodated several pairs. This solved the problem completely. Have recently gone QRO, and still no problems.
My panel was out of warranty, so you may want to check if yours is covered by a warranty or service plan before embarking at what will look like a drastically different panel the next time the Alarm company technician opens it.
Since alarms have so many wires, getting a handle on the location and the magnitude of the RFI with a sniffer or something equivalent may save you some time.
Also, I might have gotten by by addressing only the keypad leads, but the "ping" of the RFI sniffer needle on the other leads made it seem prudent to address all of the "antennas" coming into the panel.
Every situation is different, so this solution may not work for you. But getting a handle on where the RFI is may save you some false starts.
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by KC5GWA on October 3, 2005
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I had a similar problem with my smoke detector in the alarm system. I asked the alarm company to give me the bypass codes to enable and disable that part of the system. They did say this is a problem with radios and did give them to me. I have since changed companies and they put in a new panel and I have not had any issues since. Most of mine came from tx on 40m.
73
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by KC8BYF on October 3, 2005
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Mitch,
I have had almost EXACTLY the same problems as you have encountered with a DSC alarm system. The only difference is my transmitter does not get into the system. I have extensively grounded ALL pieces of radio gear here in the shack with copper braid to a centralized #1 copper bus bar out of an old cutler hammer service distrubution center which I have a 2" wide copper strap of 7 feet that exits the shack and connects to 2) 8 foor X 5/8 inch copper ground rods spaced 6 feet apart. Then the tower is grounded to 3 more ground rods (one for each leg) and all sections of tower are "strapped". This extensive grounding may be why the transmitting here dosen't get into the alarm system.
... HOWEVER, on the receive I have encountered the "birdies" as you have stated to the point of having to disconnect the entire power to the system. I opened the panel and found the "typical" bird nest of a sloppy installer and re-did all the connections and ended up eliminating about 30 feet total of # 22 wire in the panel (what a mess that was... hi hi). Also I ran a copper braid strap from the panel main ground to it's own ground rod I drove in diagonally in the crawl space directly below the place where the panel is located. This helped about 50% of the noise on most harmonic frequencies. I added ferrite chokes at the 2 keypads and at the motion sensors which helped some too. I never resolved the problem completely so I called DSC to see if I could get some assistance and got the complete "we're not responsible" speech from 3 different manager and up individuals I spoke with. Let's face it... the alarm is sold and they are not concerned in the least if the system causes RFI problems. Pretty poor support for their product is all I can say.
If enough Hams have the same problem perhaps we can all launch a class action law suit and "force" DSC to adhere to the FCC rules on radio interference producing products. Who knows.
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by WB2WIK on October 3, 2005
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I've had some sort of problem with every type of alarm system I've ever owned/used/suffered with, relating to emission of and immunity to radio frequency interference.
My solution was to move to a neighborhood where I didn't need alarms, and to use only battery-operated smoke detectors, which seem a lot less likely to exhibit problems than the "hard wired" ones.
I must admit, though, the more we live in the age of cheap, disposable electronics, the more we are going to be contending with this stuff.
I would not have berated the system design engineer for not knowing how to do his job; chances are, he knew how to do the job just fine. There's a difference between doing a job, and doing it to budget. In the case of home alarm systems, the budget might have been twenty bucks, total. Or less.
The Value Engineering classes in engineering school are great lessons. To provide value engineering, you often start with a working product and then start removing parts, one by one. As you remove parts, you see if the system still works. If it does, you remove more parts. When the last part removed renders the system non-functional, you put that part back in.
WB2WIK/6
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by KB5DPE on October 3, 2005
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"My alarm system (german shephard) has no birdies at all".
How do you know? He may have had one for lunch. Hi Hi.
Tom KB5DPE
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by W8JI on October 3, 2005
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Mitch,
Unfortunately there is nothing new about this. I had RFI from distant alarm systems in the 1970's!!!
A company named ADEMCO manufactured an alarm system that produced moving carriers that bothered all bands from below the BC band up through 30 MHz. Some alarms bothering me were as far away as three or four MILES.
The FCC, that was when they did enforcement, came down from Detroit to Toledo. They found the alarms were violating part 15 and ordered them turned off. That of course put the local alarm company in a frenzy.
Ademco was very cocky about fixing the problem. But the FCC prevailed and the ten or twenty houses bothering me eventually had different alarms installed.
Today in the USA, thanks to our increasingly dishonest political system, I probably wouldn't be so lucky. Back them Prose Walker, a HAM (W4BW), ran the FCC. Today we have a bunch of friends of our President, friends who have no experience at all in the area they control, controlling technical decisions in many of our agencies.
I hope things are better in Canada.
73 Tom
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by VA3JFB on October 3, 2005
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I think I must be one of the lucky ones after reading these replies. I installed a DSC POWER 832 (PC5015) in my house and have no problems with RFI from it at all. I can't even get it to activate when transmitting on high power with my ht 6 inches from the main circuit board. I've also found after close to 20 years of installing alarm panels (mostly DSC and Paradox) that the newer DSC panels are of better quality than the older ones. The DSC PC1000 was refered to as a "Piece of C**P" by almost every installer I talked to. I don't even want to get started going on about the Ademco and Caddx alarm panels.....
John
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by W4CNG on October 3, 2005
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John, I have the DSC 832 panel you have and it is not an issue with VHF or UHF, it is HF and the antenna wires feeding the panel, with or without ferrite filters. A hundred watts on HF will make mine start dialing on the 24/7 loops (fire and Silent Panic) to the Central Station. I'm running lots more than 100 watts HF all bands and they all are a real pain for the system. It's the cheap design that makes an Alarm panel that cost's the installer $199 to buy and then cost's you $1500 or more with all of the other Extra's you will purchase. Mine was installed right before I got back on HF after 40 years of absence. Day 1 of HF was the last day it functioned after the knock on the front door by the local PD for the Silent Panic it sent. Anyone have the manufacturer of a system that will stand up to ALL High Power Radio Operation???
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by VA3JFB on October 3, 2005
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Well, seeing as how my coax for my ex (cough, cough, hack, hack) 11 metre setup runs about 2 feet away from where my alarm panel is located, I'll have to see how thing's go in a week or two, when I'll have finished changing over to the 10 metre band. I'd like to know which DSC panel the original poster had, as I can't pick up any radiated signals from my panel on my Allied SX-190 receiver either.
BTW, I'm one of those dang nocoders in Canada that was grandfathered in recently, and I'm looking forward to getting on the hf bands as funds permit.
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by VA3JFB on October 3, 2005
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Before I forget, I'll be attending a trade show in Toronto in 2 weeks, and I'll put the question of the problem with HF Amateur ops to the manufacturers reps, and the designers that are at the show.
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by KC8VWM on October 4, 2005
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VA3JFB,
You will probobly just get a blank stare from the salesperson there and they will ask if this "Radio Thing" your talking about has anything to do with UFO's...
Good Luck :)
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by N9AVY on October 4, 2005
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Okay, having worked in the fire & security business for about 35 years, I think I can add to this thread.
First, it wasn't stated whether or not the DSC systems were wireless. If they are then, they are working on 433 mHz (bad for 70 cm DX). Over the years I've found that the only RFI trouble free wireless systems are made by ITI (now GE). Have one in my home and not a problem.
Next, wired systems always work better with a ground. Please note that ground must be connected at both ends; this would be funny, but I've found this problem often (also found one wire attached to PVC pipe! No camera that day!). In home situations, especially with hams, it is very advantageous to run all keypad wires with shielded cable. Once saw a Moose
(original owner of company was Wayne Moose not Bullwinkle!) panel knock out local TV channels because installer used unshielded cable. If radiation from panel is a problem it is sometimes pssible to cure it by installing a ground wire from door on box to metal box.
Smoke detectors will almost always be problematic since they are in plastic cases. Usually, a well-designed photoelectric detector will not have RFI problems. The smoke detectors with the little radioactive labels are the ionization type which have a high impedence front end and virtually wide open to RFI. Photoelectric smoke detectors have a low impedence front end. It was mentioned that there are many leading manufacturers of fire alarm systems, but Fire Lite (sister company of Notifier owned by Honeywell) is a very common panel; also, Silent Knight is part of Honeywell. Most of the other manufacturers are proprietary in nature which means only their people can service the equipment which usually puts local guys in position where they can do little or nothing.
Over the years I've found that much of the service/RFI problems are also related to poor installation practices such as using the cheapest wire and equipment available. Poorly trained installers also contribute to problems by forgetting to attach grounds and other things. Usually, a bunch of bypass caps will fix many RFI problems before ferrite chokes should be tried.
Jerry, N9AVY
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by VA3JFB on October 4, 2005
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I agree with the comment about the cheapest wire. One alarm company I worked for used the cheapest everthing. I prefer to use shielded wire or cat 5e wire for the keypads. Another source of trouble are wonderful splices, which the owner of the aformentioned company left everywhere on the installs that he did....... I used to carry a small assortment of bypass caps that I would install in some of the panels and devices, an I always used the ground, unless the manufacturer said not to, and then I even tried it those times. Some of the panels (older DSC panels) didn't like having the ground connected to the ground connector on the circuit board, which would usually knock out the phone line
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W4CNG's Fix and Prose Remembered...
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by NT4XT on October 5, 2005
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I sort of lean towards W4CNG's RFI solution. LOL!
My experience has been the opposite, the radiation off my roof mounted vertical ground plane, would make my alarm go nuts at my prior QTH, especially if the front door was open. Closing the door, would let me run 80W on the low end of 40m. But on 15m, anything higher than 15W, door open or closed, would cause the main panel to bleep wildly.
As far as Prose Walker, the great W4BW...well- I'm finally over the little fit I had about his call sign being swiped so quickly.
After only several Q's with him (one on his final birthday) I must say I grew very fond of this person with the coolest name I ever heard. His daughter was out laying more radials around his Butternut on that day, which he had on a small patch of lawn in front of his Rochester condo. Of course she was not laying those additional radials the moments while we were having our brisk paced CW QSO, ha.
I sort of felt like his call should have been "retired" so to speak.
But I got got over it- even before my little
circle of contact was quickly growing towards
an inevitable eye-ball QSO with the current W4BW.
Ah- but now that I'm taking night classes for the next 14 months- what little contesting time I had is now gone again so meeting W4BW (as in Bob Wilson) seems unlikely for the next year, maybe. Good ole Bob is a nice guy according to all sources, and after all Bob Wilson surely does fit the call.
Anyway, I'm glad Prose Walker is remembered and remains appropriately honored by such a prolific person in the Amateur community- Tom Rauch.
73 to all,
Darin.
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by N9AVY on October 5, 2005
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Cheapest everything is what a lot of companies do - large & small. Purchasing people tend to look at price and not quality. As far as CAT5e for keypads, I would avoid it... that is solid wire, probably about #24, and I find more broken wire problems from installers using telephone cable ! I don't think CAT 5 is even rated for use as burglar alarm wire and definitely not for fire alarm. The older burglar alarm cable used to be a twisted pair which provided a bit of RFI immunity, but these days I see telephone wire, speaker wire, and just about anything else the installer had laying in his garage. Had one fast food place in Milwaukee which had no less than 4 different types of wire in the alarm system; shielded, unshielded, telephone, speaker, etc. Ugh ! Oh, and the system was prone to false alarms ! Gosh, wonder why ?
One of my pet peeves are the installers who twist wires together and then wrap some tape around it... of course, a few years later the cheap tape falls off and everything shorts out. Several years ago one of my guys put a staple through a cable which caused false fire alarms until I traced the wire and found staple (Lesson: never hire your brother-in-law!).
In addition to lousy equipment and installation, I do think some of the blame might lay with antenna systems which may have SWR a bit high and perhaps use of a tuner or low-pass filter may help in some situations. Also,how's shielding on coax - 95% or some of that stuff you got at a bargain price ?
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by N9AVY on October 5, 2005
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Cheapest everything is what a lot of companies do - large & small. Purchasing people tend to look at price and not quality. As far as CAT5e for keypads, I would avoid it... that is solid wire, probably about #24, and I find more broken wire problems from installers using telephone cable ! I don't think CAT 5 is even rated for use as burglar alarm wire and definitely not for fire alarm. The older burglar alarm cable used to be a twisted pair which provided a bit of RFI immunity, but these days I see telephone wire, speaker wire, and just about anything else the installer had laying in his garage. Had one fast food place in Milwaukee which had no less than 4 different types of wire in the alarm system; shielded, unshielded, telephone, speaker, etc. Ugh ! Oh, and the system was prone to false alarms ! Gosh, wonder why ?
One of my pet peeves are the installers who twist wires together and then wrap some tape around it... of course, a few years later the cheap tape falls off and everything shorts out. Several years ago one of my guys put a staple through a cable which caused false fire alarms until I traced the wire and found staple (Lesson: never hire your brother-in-law!).
In addition to lousy equipment and installation, I do think some of the blame might lay with antenna systems which may have SWR a bit high and perhaps use of a tuner or low-pass filter may help in some situations. Also,how's shielding on coax - 95% or some of that stuff you got at a bargain price ?
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by N9AVY on October 5, 2005
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Cheapest everything is what a lot of companies do - large & small. Purchasing people tend to look at price and not quality. As far as CAT5e for keypads, I would avoid it... that is solid wire, probably about #24, and I find more broken wire problems from installers using telephone cable ! I don't think CAT 5 is even rated for use as burglar alarm wire and definitely not for fire alarm. The older burglar alarm cable used to be a twisted pair which provided a bit of RFI immunity, but these days I see telephone wire, speaker wire, and just about anything else the installer had laying in his garage. Had one fast food place in Milwaukee which had no less than 4 different types of wire in the alarm system; shielded, unshielded, telephone, speaker, etc. Ugh ! Oh, and the system was prone to false alarms ! Gosh, wonder why ?
One of my pet peeves are the installers who twist wires together and then wrap some tape around it... of course, a few years later the cheap tape falls off and everything shorts out. Several years ago one of my guys put a staple through a cable which caused false fire alarms until I traced the wire and found staple (Lesson: never hire your brother-in-law!).
In addition to lousy equipment and installation, I do think some of the blame might lay with antenna systems which may have SWR a bit high and perhaps use of a tuner or low-pass filter may help in some situations. Also,how's shielding on coax - 95% or some of that stuff you got at a bargain price ?
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by N9AVY on October 5, 2005
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Cheapest everything is what a lot of companies do - large & small. Purchasing people tend to look at price and not quality. As far as CAT5e for keypads, I would avoid it... that is solid wire, probably about #24, and I find more broken wire problems from installers using telephone cable ! I don't think CAT 5 is even rated for use as burglar alarm wire and definitely not for fire alarm. The older burglar alarm cable used to be a twisted pair which provided a bit of RFI immunity, but these days I see telephone wire, speaker wire, and just about anything else the installer had laying in his garage. Had one fast food place in Milwaukee which had no less than 4 different types of wire in the alarm system; shielded, unshielded, telephone, speaker, etc. Ugh ! Oh, and the system was prone to false alarms ! Gosh, wonder why ?
One of my pet peeves are the installers who twist wires together and then wrap some tape around it... of course, a few years later the cheap tape falls off and everything shorts out. Several years ago one of my guys put a staple through a cable which caused false fire alarms until I traced the wire and found staple (Lesson: never hire your brother-in-law!).
In addition to lousy equipment and installation, I do think some of the blame might lay with antenna systems which may have SWR a bit high and perhaps use of a tuner or low-pass filter may help in some situations. Also,how's shielding on coax - 95% or some of that stuff you got at a bargain price ?
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RFI from Alarm System
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by VA3JFB on October 5, 2005
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Unfortunately, these days, the most common wire for alarm systems is plain old quad. It has no twists whatsoever. Some manufacturers dont't recommend shielded cable for the keypad runs, as it acts like a capacitor, and rounds the edges of the square wave data signal. As for the cat5e wire, I've had less problems with the jobs with it, than with the other wire I have been given to use. I have one DSC 832 that I've installed, with a 300 foot run of cat5e between the panel and a zone expander and keypad. The only problem I had with the system was the smoke detectors failing.
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RFI from Alarm System
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by VA3JFB on October 5, 2005
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I guess these days, hams and most alarm companies have one thing in common, bieng cheap, except when it comes to ham equipment....
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RFI from Alarm System
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by VE2AED on October 5, 2005
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Just to let you know that I experienced the same problem in a ski chalet that I rented for the winter 5 years ago , I solved it by running each and every wire through ferrite sleeves as many turns as possible into each sleeve . When I was finished there were around 20 sleeves behind the box in the wall , not a wire went into the box without a sleeve . This completely cleared up the rfi problem and also the false triggering problem .
Hope this helps
Howard VE2AED
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by KC5JK on October 7, 2005
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I like "Protected 24/7 by Smith & Wesson" too. But seriously, I once had quite the opposite happen. I was parked in a public lot, talking mobile on 222MHz FM, and set-off a nearby store alarm box. I immediately called the security company (their number was on the box, which was ringing defeaningly) from my autopatch, to tell them not to send cops, but to install a trap to tune-out our 222 band.
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by N9AVY on October 7, 2005
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Install a "222 mHz. trap " ? The typical alarm installer/service tech probably wouldn't have a clue what that is !
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by VE3TK on October 8, 2005
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Alarm panels and sensors are supposed to be immune to 20 to 50 V/m. Years ago when I did RFI measurements in homes next to HAMS, depending on the HF antenna and frequency being used, I found that the neighbours of hams can easily have 20V/m or more in their BASEMENT rec rooms. Just try telling a non-ham to put chokes on their stereo wires, phone lines, alarm systems when seeing high levels like this. A quality Nortel phone typically has only 7V/m immunity.
I also observed that lower frequencies were more likely to have lots of energy at ground level. Freq's like 10m into a beam played the least amount of RFI on neighbours equipment.
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by KC8VWM on October 10, 2005
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I immediately called the security company (their number was on the box, which was ringing defeaningly) from my autopatch, to tell them not to send cops,
----
So let me guess, you told them you were a bankrobber ..um er.. I mean ham radio operator calling in making the request and they ended up sending out the cops anyways? :)
It's true when I say that Radio Amateurs are likely to be more qualified than "most" company trained alarm company installers / techs that are dubbed as so called experts when it comes to resolving RFI interference issues.
(Recognizing hams ever employed in the field may be the general exception)
I especially liked the ground wire installed to the PVC pipe example.
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RE: RFI from Alarm System
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by N9AVY on October 18, 2005
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Most alarm installers/technicians have very basic electronic skills, if any. Companies tend to hire anyone who will work cheap and has a pulse. RFI complaints are usually met with "We don't know how to fix it" or a similar response. The installers typically try to get the job completed as fast as possible; some may even be subcontractors on piecework !
Had a call from a local ham over weekend who was having RFI problems. He called his alarm company (Brand A) and they didn't have a clue. Went over all the things I know that usually work; so he was armed with enough info to solve the problem. Once again, here was another installation with NO GROUND connection ! Installers are either lazy or ignorant when it comes to putting ground on a panel.
Couldn't believe it when I found the ground on PVC pipe a few years ago, but I've also seen a few grounded to gas pipes ! Would think most hams with a good electronics background could do better than 95% of alarm installers.
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RFI from Alarm System
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by VA3JFB on October 19, 2005
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Well, I've retuned my "ex" 11 metre antenna to the 10 metre band, and with 100 watts power out, I can't get my alarm panel to act up. So I guess the quality of the installation has something to bear, along with a low swr.
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RE: rfi INTO Alarm System
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by KF5KWO on April 8, 2006
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For some reason, I've just started setting off my smoke alarm system on 40m and 20m. Been operating for 2 weeks with a wire loop under the eaves of the roof (10 feet off the ground) and only this weekend have I started setting off the smoke alarms. Don't know why this would start happening only now. Process to shut off all power while operating is cumbersome, so I'm thinking about have a master-switch put in at the shack.
73 de Jeff, KF5KWO
Helotes, TX
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