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The future of the National Traffic System
Steve Bonine (KB9X)
on
October 12, 2005
View comments about this article!
For those of you who may not know, the National Traffic System (NTS) consists of a carefully choreographed collection of section, region, and area nets designed to relay messages throughout the US. In a sense it's the second “R” in ARRL. NTS has a long and honorable history and has some of the best operators in the world as its membership.
The recent hurricane season has raised serious doubts for me about the role that NTS plays in the current ham-radio environment. I did not hear a single health-and-welfare message during the disasters. In bygone times, NTS would have been buzzing with activity.
My hands-on experience on the Gulf coast demonstrated a couple of reasons for this lack of traffic. First, responders were discouraged or even prohibited from soliciting such traffic, and non-NTS nets often refused to accept it. (I can understand not accepting incoming H&W traffic if there's no way to deliver it, but having a so-called traffic net refuse traffic because it's not “emergency” demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the whole concept of prioritizing traffic.) Second, there are other means available to people in the affected areas for getting word out to concerned relatives - at the Red Cross shelter, I observed that residents could check out cell phones and use them as they wished.
NTS is a year-around operation. Regular activity in non-disaster times trains operators and prepares the system for priority traffic in times of disaster. In order to keep the system oiled, routine traffic needs to flow on a daily basis. This supply of routine traffic has been drying up for several years. For example, we used to see radiograms from Navy recruits sending their address home to concerned parents; since this source has dried up, I assume that the Navy has found other means of providing this service. Or maybe the recruits just reach into their pocket now and pull out their cell phone. With the common use of email in the general public, there's little demand for the “Happy birthday Aunt Mary” traffic that used to keep the NTS mechanism running for the 364 days each year when there was no need to relay health-and-welfare traffic.
This leads to a puzzling question: If there's no routine traffic, and there's no priority traffic, then why is there an NTS? In order to answer this question, we need to explore what NTS contributes to the ham-radio community.
The most obvious contribution is the long-haul traffic capability. Having both the system and the operators available in case of emergency has always been the bedrock rationale that justified spending time on NTS, day after day.
NTS is traditionally the place where traffic handlers are trained. I can hear the collective sigh of “We don't need that formal traffic handling stuff.” There are many aspects of traffic handling other than CW procedures, formal message format, and worrying about check counts. Even in VHF tactical communications, the basic need is to get the message through accurately and completely, including addressee, text, and signature. You may not call them “addressee, text, and signature”, but those aspects of the message must be there or you'll find yourself backtracking to find them. While I'm convinced that there's no better place than NTS to learn the basic skills, it's not the only place. Two weeks on the Gulf coast demonstrated to me that hams in general are woefully untrained in tactical communications procedures, but that they learn very quickly in the heat of battle. It would have been nice if more people had better background, and NTS could help with this issue, but then again so could ARES or RACES or even MARS.
Another aspect of NTS that is worthy of consideration is the social one. Checking into nets regularly, learning procedure, and working together towards a common goal is a great way to meet people and build lasting friendships. Such activities bring out the best in the hobby.
Finally, NTS provides a structure that encourages activity. Nets meet at the same time each day, and stations can volunteer to handle specific assignments, all of which motivates us to go into the ham shack and actually get on the air.
NTS is at a turning point. It takes a lot of volunteers and a lot of operating hours to maintain the extensive schedules, and I see the manpower pool shrinking to the point that the system is beginning to creak and groan a bit. There are few new recruits. If this well-oiled machine is allowed to grind to a halt, it will be impossible to put it back together.
If NTS is to continue to exist, new recruits need to be attracted and the old timers need to be retained. There's only one thing that will accomplish this - meaningful traffic in the network. These routine messages could come from the members themselves, but historically NTS participants have been remiss about pumping traffic into the system, and there's little reason to expect this to change. This leaves external forces as the source for NTS revitalization, and the only external force I see that can/will do this is ARRL.
Maybe ARRL has already decided that NTS is an anachronism and not worth saving. After all, I remember when the acronym “BPL” was an award for outstanding work in the traffic-handling community; that's sure not how ARRL uses it these days.
I saved the disclaimers for the end. These are my personal observations, based upon my personal experience in this geographic area, and I'm not speaking for anyone else. I have 40 years of experience with NTS, so it's hard to be objective, but seems to me that either NTS needs to be integrated into today's world or disbanded. I don't have any revitalization ideas that I consider workable, but I hate to think that this great resource should just be allowed to wither away.
It will be interesting to read the comments about this article on eHam, or maybe to observe the lack of them.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by ICOMTECH66 on October 12, 2005
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"This leads to a puzzling question: If there's no routine traffic, and there's no priority traffic, then why is there an NTS?"
Simply put -- we have a NTS becuase in this hobby we can never simply just say enough is enough and move on -- we spend half our lives trying to make sure that everything that was relevant 50 years ago (ie MARS and NTS and Morse) is considered relevant today.
I too listened to the NTS traffic, or lack there of, and heard not one single message -- but did hear about 1000 NCS calls and check-ins.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KA1EEC on October 12, 2005
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manually handled messages are obsolete except under extreme cases. The traffic system should be replaced with a multipoint e-mail relay network using amateur radio as the endpoints for transmission.
This kind of network would take messages originated by various relief organizations and hams dealing with health and safety, and relate to another site capable of injecting it into the Internet for delivery to the intended recipient.
There is nothing fancy here. And ordinary PC running an MTA such as postfix and a gateway to some digital mode of communication like mt63 or mfsk16 would work quite nicely. Even the transceiver needn't be fancy. One of the small radios from small wonder Labs would serve quite adequately to get the signal out of the disasters zone to someplace with a bit of working infrastructure.
One could even have multiple nodes for transmission to increase effective throughput.
I know someone's bound to raise regulatory objections and I'll argue that with a bit of backdoor convincing, the FCC would granted temporary waiver on handling this kind of traffic for the duration of emergency. At the very least, it would make good controversial PR if the FCC tried to shut down people doing good work.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0SAP on October 12, 2005
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Let's face the facts, today is a different world for communications. After hurricane Katrina, what few hams that had emergency power were off the air in a matter of hours, after their gas ran out for the generators. Also, after the military moved in, over 10,000 satellite phone were brought in for there own communications. Hams were not needed, the NTS was a feel good operation at best.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KA7GKN on October 12, 2005
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Sadly, I have to agree to the potential demise of NTS. I have participated in NTS off and on for 15+ years. My experience has been a mixed bag....
1. NTS was never officially used for any disaster! the reason or rational was "we don't have time for your stinking format! it takes too long! we can get 3 messages passed to your one" This is true with the formal message protocol you spend too much time on non critical information...during Hurricane Andrew the SATERN group took messages and they were succinct, name phone, message, next! They would do a 3:1 ratio of messages compared to NTS.
2. On a positive note, NTS is excellent training for running a net, working under pressure, receiving messages correctly the first time! discipline on air, etc. This style is diffeent than the contest styles.
3. I also believe the NTS has been forgotten [by the ARRL] in the ever evolving Ham Radio hobby.
It's a shame that the NTS powers to be, can't negotiate a new plan for the 21st century, or evolve and work in concert with SATERN or other entities. Then again, when was the last time you had a ring at the door and someone delivered a "telegram" to you?
Marty, KA7GKN
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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Also, after the military moved in, over 10,000 satellite phone were brought in for there own communications. Hams were not needed,
----
Yes, but the idea of NTS is not to replace or provide the military with comms, but rather it is designed to provide communication for Aunt Mary's family members who are located 600 miles away. I doubt the military equipment would be used for this purpose as they have other priorities at hand.
The NTS is not about replacing public safety communication systems. It is about enhancing it.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by W3ETC on October 12, 2005
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It is unfortunate but Amateur radio in large scale disasters has been usurped by a variety of technological changes and automation. While the older modes of communication with formalized traffic handling procedures were the latest in technology in their day they have been somewhat made obsolete as technology has changed. While the NTS certainly has its mission I believe that in order to stay current with the changing world it needs to change the way it does business.
Cell phones, email, text messages and the web like have all radically changed the way people communicate. Health and Welfare messages were relayed after Katrina (if that is even the right term in these cases today) via searchable databases on the web. Cell phone systems were back on the air in a reasonable amount of time allowing displaced residents to contact loved ones. Along with the satellite phones and other technology brought to bear I am sure that the NTS was somewhat forgotten as a backwards relic.
Recruiting new volunteers to actively participate in older communication media will become very difficult in the future. People simply don’t have the time or energy to devote to such an activity. In closing what is happening to the NTS is consistent to what is being experienced in Amateur Radio. The hobby is becoming older and older age wise. While I myself am in the getting older category Amateur radio operators are for the most part not up to date with current technology. While there are exceptions listening during the day to any of the HF bands and it is evident that the majority are very unfamiliar with the computer world. I am fearful that some of our public service activities will unfortunately be made obsolete with the technology march. This may be one of them.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 12, 2005
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KB9X
>>My hands-on experience on the Gulf coast demonstrated a couple of reasons for this lack of traffic. First, responders were discouraged or even prohibited from soliciting such traffic, and non-NTS nets often refused to accept it.>>
I also wondered why there was no originating H&W traffic from anywhere in the affected areas. I think you only have to look at the money to see why this is. The Red Cross and Salvation Army receive contract reimbursement from FEMA to perform these tasks. They do not want FREE amateur volunteers competing with them. This does explain it.
These organizations appear to only want to use amateur radio to support their internal communications while at the same time preventing hams from providing communications to the disaster victims.
>>Second, there are other means available to people in the affected areas for getting word out to concerned relatives - at the Red Cross shelter, I observed that residents could check out cell phones and use them as they wished.>>
In the vast majority of disasters, this will always be the case. The world of communications has gotten better and better with more and more diversity and we no longer provide the best, the only, or the most reliable back-up communications available in most cases. We are living in the Information Age after all!
>>It would have been nice if more people had better background, and NTS could help with this issue, but then again so could ARES or RACES or even MARS.>>
You got that right! The net behavior was atrocious. More like a DX pileup at times than a controlled net. It was obvious that people did not spend any time listening when check-in after check-in asked the same questions about the conditions in the same place.
>>Maybe ARRL has already decided that NTS is an anachronism and not worth saving. After all, I remember when the acronym �BPL� was an award for outstanding work in the traffic-handling community; that's sure not how ARRL uses it these days.>>
I think the ARRL has decided that Winlink 2000 is the way to go and will eventually disband the NTS. They have already pretty much given up funding and control of the organization in any case.
I hate to see this happen because traffic nets can be useful, but on the other hand, if solicitation of traffic is prohibited during disasters, then the NTS has no purpose to serve.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K0BG on October 12, 2005
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Here's a scenario for you.
If we experienced a really big national disaster, just about every form of commercial communications (including the internet) would be unusable.
To date we've been lucky in this country, 9/11 notwithstanding. While I don't wish to suggest a disaster of epic proportions is on the way, if it is, this hobby of ours will most likely be the only means of communicating.
The recent earthquake in the middle east is a very good example. Nothing is working. Afghanistan and Pakistan, like a lot of developing countries, rely heavily on cellphones for communications; much more so than the US. The quake destroyed all of the cellphone infrastructure. Commercial broadcasting, electricity, what little land lines there are (were), water, sewers, medical help, police, you name it, are either gone or nearly useless. If you've been paying attention to the news reports, you would know their respective governments are hard pressed to give the requisite aid.
Sound familiar? Our own government, assumingly the richest in the world, didn't, and still doesn't, have the resources to address the recent hurricane disaster. What do you think would happen if we had a small asteroid hit off the coast of New York city?
Yes, the NTS is suffering, and we need to think very long and hard about it. While CW may have been the key 50 years ago, digital means and superior voice communication perhaps have replace CW for the most part. However, nothing, repeat nothing, will replace a well organized and equipped group of amateurs.
God help us if we ever really need them (us).
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC5R on October 12, 2005
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Well, I personally handled (6) formal Health/Welfare messages during Katrina aftermath on 40/80 mtrs, not to mention countless "informal" messages. I also heard many others. So I do disagree with the authors claim that the NTS was of no use and he must have been occupied with many other tasks and didn't realize how much of it there was. Also, the shelter I was at had (1) phone (directors use only) and it only worked half the time, since it was in the impact area and not in an outlying area with communications.
That said, I do think he made a good point that it is under-utilized and parts of it are outdated. Also, given that Katrina was a big event, more traffic should have been expected. Part of the dwindling traffic, in my opinion, is the advancement of other technologies. Let's face it, from both a "land-line" phone, internet, and wireless connectivity, the world is a much "closer" place in this century. We here in the "1st world" have one heck of a network. But the other part of it I do believe is from the lack of recognition that disaster services gives to the both the simplicity and capabilities of ham radio (HR) and the NTS during a catastrophy the size of Katrina, which wiped out communications of all sorts for a number of days and weeks in some places.
For instance, basic mobile radio an/or HF capabilities using HR should be send in with first responders to provide a link. In Katrina and Rita, most of HR was kept out by the authorities in favor of their satellite phones and paid services, until some other services were set-up. In fact, many local EOCs were not allowed back into their home areas, due to this countries new "expert" handling of disasters and the mentality that HR and these EOCs were not "on the critical services list", and others will only be in the way. Any head of FEMA, Homeland Security, or other disaters professional (or political appointee with no knowledge of what they are doing, whatever the case may be) should be made aware of what HR can do and use it efficiently.
Beyond this time period (maybe 3-4 days) when HR could have really shined (and did in some cases), HR was let in. Then, it was the lack of reliable services (capacity) that helped keep HR in place (after all, our telephone networks have capacity limits that are effected by equipment, etc) to handle some critical communications for the Red Cross, hospitals, and others on mostly and informal basis.
All that said, it's a shame when this country wastes a resource that by it's simplicity makes it very resilient in times of catastrophies. Telling Aunt Mary happy birthday is still possible (but not something to brag about), but more importantly telling someone Aunt Mary is alive and being cared for in the first few days of a disaster is more important. So in general, if we want to utilize HR in the 21st century, we need to build upon strengths (simplicity) and get over habitual bickering. The "authorities" need to work to allow this service to do what it can do best. This simplicity and the efficient use of the NTS will do more to vindicate the benefits of HR in time of need. Call it a "modernization" of the NTS.
..and for those who don't want to be part of the NTS, atleast it will remain a respectable hobby for them to do whatever they want. And if disaster strikes where they live, they may want to check into a traffic net if for no other reason than to stay informed. After all, I hadn't checked into a traffic net since the late 1980s until Katrina hit. This is my opinion.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB1GMX on October 12, 2005
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KA1EEC:
In disasters the first point of failure is often
infastructure. That means power is only part of
the problem and phone (network) water and shelter
are often involved. Most computers don't do well
in the rain with out power and a network to talk
on.
Also any system dependent on an infrastructure is
a strategic tool more than tactical as often the
tactical job is to handle emergencies and follow
with basic infrastructure.
As one person put it years ago: A fire in the trash
can is tactical. The burnt carpet, smoke damage
and trash can replacement are all strategic.
While digital modes offer low error rates and often
good range for the power required there are a few
issues that impact them for tactical and some strategic
roll out.
#They require a computer that is both large and power
hungry compared to a 20M 3watt QRP PSK31 radio.
# most of those computers are not portable and if they
are(laptops) the battery is very limited.
For these two I'll ask when will someone do a PSK31
transceiver that is portable and is complete in one unit
(no external computer required) and runs a resonable
time on batteries (say 12V 7ah for 8hours or better)?
Maybe portable RTTY (amtor or clover be easier?).
# user must still be competent.
I'll focus on the last. there are many things the
article author noted that any vield communications needs
to contain. The messages regardless of form, method,
mode or whatever need to contain:
Who is it for.
Who is it from.
The message in full [more later].
Who to contact if needed.
The message. That needs to be concise and complete.
For example:
Net, w1abc over
Net, go ahead w1abc
w1abc, net,
I'm at 5th and elm, there is a building fire. I
have one possible injury. Send fire and rescue.
I need ETA. I am standing by for reply.
Net, copied units dispatched. ETA 5 minutes. call
back when they arrive.
W1abc, net, copied. standing by.
Not a lot of words and combined with who from and to
makes for a solid tactical message. Now what I've
heard during a drill:
This is, **bc, fire.
Net, Who's calling?
*1abc
Net, push the button first, repeat your call slowly?
W 1 A B C
Net, w1abc you have a fire?
w1abc, Yes ahh, a fire.
Net abc, where is the fire?
w1abc, in front of me here.
Net, abc, where are you?
w1abc, ah, in a room
Net, do you need a fire unit?
w1abc, hey, that's a good idea.
Net, abc, Where is the room?
w1abc, ah fifth, ahh, and elm I think the corner.
Net, thats's 5th and ElM on the corner, confirm?
w1abc, ahh right.
Net, what floor?
W1abc, I'm on the floor.
Net, I'm asking what floor does the fire fighters
need to go to.
W1abc, ah, one second ahh, there is only 1 floor
I know of.
Net, standby
Net, the fire unit is dispatched.
w1abc, oh, ok. Say flight time?
Net, Their ETA is 5minutes, is that what you are
asking?
w1abc, ah right.
Net, please call back when the unit arrives.
w1abc, send a wagon.
Net, a meat wagon?
w1abc, ahh a rescue unit?
Net, your requesting an EMTs?
w1abc, ah ya.
Net, how many injuries?
w1abc, one I think.
Net, who in charge there?
w1abc, no idea.
Net, w1def at northest corner of 5th and elm
fire location. One injury, minor, not treated.
Injury from table collapse. Fire in trash can
is out. Fire command on scene. Will remain
here this frequency.
Net, where is w1abc?
W1def to Net, w1abc left the area after being checked
by EMTs.
Net, def, copied that. Stay with fire unit.
Well, you get the picture. Sure it was a shaggy dog story
carried to the extreme but, the point being communication
by its nature can be a painful experience if only one side
is not complete nor concise. Nonstandard language or
terminology doesn't help. Professionals that depend on
communications are very diciplined and have agreedupon
shortand when it is used. Making this digital helps how?
This in reality is more than a ham radio operational problem.
Listen to 911 playbacks and you hear the same thing.
The idea of talking in concise complete sentences
seems important. Communication is not headlines
or soundbites.
Allison
KB1GMX
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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While the NTS certainly has its mission I believe that in order to stay current with the changing world it needs to change the way it does business.
------
I agree. For example I feel there should be an email handling component involved as opposed to just using a telephone number and persons address.
Also, long distance telephone is no longer really long distance for most telephone subscribers with nationwide flat rate service.
The idea that we all play and pretend that a message HAS to be directed to a specific geographical area to avoid long distance toll charges is sort of an antiquated idea.
This procedure actually serves to slow down the message delivery process. NTS should be utilizing faster and more efficient ways and technologies to speed up message delivery.
Email delivery should be part of the process to replace the idea of only using a radio telegram door delivery service or even a telephone call to most people who are receiving messages out of affected areas.
Messages going INTO the affected area on the other hand should remain the only instance where the "paper telegram" is used. But not both ways which is apparently the case today. This just adds another bottleneck to the message delivery system.
Some people feel that the internet would not work during an emergency. To that I would have to say is not 100% accurate. The internet does not work in the affected region, not the entire planet. Once a message reaches an area with internet access then it should be fast tracked into a more streamlined delivery method.
Why do messages have to go pony express for the entire journey until it reaches it's final destination anyways? Who says it MUST be that way? ..Why?
NTS needs to re evaluate how it does things if it wants to remain viable at all.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K8MHZ on October 12, 2005
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What we are seeing is the need to change.
At one time amateur radio was the only form of comms in many emergencies, that is getting less true as time moves on.
Now we need to concentrate on getting communications set up faster, better and with minimal negative impact on other services. We need to explore new technologies if we want to be truly needed.
Let me give you one example. Our local packet guru has a way to go to our Red Cross (or other) building and plug his packet system into their LAN. If they loose their Internet connection a link is seamlessly transferred to his system and a 'band aid' link to the nearest working Internet point is made, albeit at slow speed. The connection is fast enough to keep e-mail moving across the Internet. When the original connection comes back on, it is switched back automatically.
We are now scheduling set up and testing and will be using the system in upcoming events for training.
Obviously we can't be stagnant and hope that some situation will come about that renders all technology other than ham radio useless.
Let's look at satellites. Hams have them. Anyone ever thought of using said satellites for emergency comms?
We can run higher power 2.4 gig rigs with mega gain antennas. Why aren't we practicing setting up such stations in a relay pattern to transmit high speed info out of a disaster zone?
These are just a few examples of the fact that hams DO have the resources to be useful with emergency communications. We just need to stay with the times.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AC0H on October 12, 2005
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<<"The traffic system should be replaced with a multipoint e-mail relay network using amateur radio as the endpoints for transmission.">>
You don't work for WinLink do you?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WF7A on October 12, 2005
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As an aside...
I know that the NTS is geared for U.S. traffic handling--and maybe my ignorance is showing--but is there an NTS-type of organization for international H&W traffic handling? It occurs to me that if there isn't, maybe we shouldn't be so radio egocentric and participate, or help create, an international emergency/H&W traffic handling service. There are plenty of poorer countries/peoples who don't have access to cellphones, computers, etc., but could get hold of an amateur radio operator somewhere.
Ciao,
Rich
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by ICOMTECH66 on October 12, 2005
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KOBG:
"this hobby of ours will most likely be the only means of communicating after the next disaster."
Once again -- here we go with the "WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS - HAMS SAVES THE DAY " premise
Dont you ever get tired of spewing this mantra???
-
"However, nothing, repeat nothing, will replace a well organized and equipped group of amateurs."
Dude -- you need to step away from the crack pipe -- i actually think you are starting to believe this -- your saying that a group of hobbyists can do this better then the military or commercial comms centers.
Ham radio is a hobby -- why can't you just enjoy firing up the old set and having fun -- why do I get the feeling that you also have an orange vest in your trunk and whoppy lights on your car
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by W6TH on October 12, 2005
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.
I can remember the days when the NTS was a joy and I couldn't wait until net time and then fight of who will take the transfer of traffic.
I was into traffic nets including the "Forty Meter Traffic System", before WW2, which many of you have no idea that it existed and the NTS with the backing of the ARRL.
I am a BPL "Brass Pounders League" operator and that should tell you how much I was involved in the CW traffic nets.
The ARRL seems to no longer back the NTS and has other ideas of what they want in store for all hams today. Not only being a magazine publishing company, they are now in the sales department and pushing for digital stuff and promoting the sales of ham gear.
No longer for time involving ham radio, which also includes the finish of code.
I will bet $1000.00 to a donut that CB will outlive ham radio.
73, W6TH/BPL....Not A Vanity CAll...
.:
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB7LYM on October 12, 2005
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We must face it ! Hams are on the way out. New communication equipment is now here. The way of the old fathers mumbling.....we must do it like our forefathers did is long gone. Its gone like the Dodo bird,the dinousarus etc. No longer needed is the ( God forbid ) Morse Code.
Like handwritten Emergency messages that are so slow that the one in need is buried, forgotten before the ink is dry on the paper.
Yes we must face it.... WE ARE OBSOLETE !!!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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Someone mentioned that NTS was never actually utilized for any disaster in the entire history of NTS.
Ok, I am left wondering what sort of disaster has to come along for them to REALLY flip on the big switch? If Katrina didn't do it, nothing probobly ever will.. ever..
Obviously, someone keeps lying to newcomers about the intended purpose of NTS and is wasting thier time with training when that training is of no use during a disaster.
Newcomers are currently being mislead and clearly misinformed about why NTS exists and why it was first established if it was never actually used for it's intended purpose.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by NA4IT on October 12, 2005
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OK, go ahead and load up your guns to tell me how stupid I am, but here goes.
NTS is a good system that works in MOST circumstances.
Health & Welfare traffic was received and transmited on 3 different HF frequencies. However, the reason it did not do it's intended purpose is for one simple fact...THERE WERE NO HOME BASED AMATEUR RADIO OPERATORS IN THE HURRICANE AFFECTED AREA WITH WHICH TO PASS TRAFFIC!
People evacuated (WISELY), antennas were obliterated, power was out, homes were flooded. The system was not broke, the operators on the "business" end were!
Guys, this was an EXTEREME disaster, many have said of Biblical proportions. People had to adapt and do the best they could.
One thing that was asked on H/W traffic was to simplify it. Most seasoned operators knew to put who it is going to, who was requesting the info, and ARL 19 in the body, which is short hand for "Request health and welfare report on________." Stations on emergency power just did not have time to copy huge headers, complete addresses, 25 (or more) words of message text, and another signature and response address.
And, H/W traffic does not take precedence in an emergency, emergency traffic does.
I'm sure many will say that the SATERN system was broke too. No it wasn't. The purpose of SATERN is (1) to provide communciations support for the Salvation Army Response. H/W handling is something they throw in the mix when all the emergency traffic and their own logistical traffic is complete.
As good as amateur radio did over the last five weeks, there were places it still failed. But this is not the time to say amateur radio is no longer viable. We just need to take a good close objective look and see how things can be done better.
Another thing is this, and as bad as this sounds, it is true. In a disaster situation, even though Son John Doe wants to see if Mama Sally Mae made it through, that is one little request in a whole world of troubles. So, when something affects a wide area, communications will probably be geared towards a response for the whole area.
I did handle some H/W traffic from my local area (E TN) from folks wanting to check on loved ones in the Gulf, even the first night into it. And I had to tell them, I will try, the message will have to be very short, and it may not get through because of the greater need for emergency communications. But I did tell them this...let me listen for a while and see what I can hear. I told them I would call them back and let them know if I heard any reports about the affected area their loved one was in. And you know what, not one of those folks said "amateur radio is a joke" or " amateur radio is old fashioned". In fact, each one of them thanked me and said they appreciated me explaining to them what was going on. A couple of the message did get through. One fellow told me his loved had called to say they are OK. I asked him how she knew to call. He said he didn't ask, but he did say this, that the night he called me, just knowing someone cared and would try helped him greatly.
So is NTS broke? No, just got a little overwhelmed this time. Could happen again. So, let's work on a fix.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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ARL 50
ARL 79
ARL 54
ARL 16
ARL 23
ARL 34
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 12, 2005
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The NTS system should be replaced by a nationwide 902-928MHz, 1.2GHz, 2.4GHz or 3.3GHz data system. You can buy 1 watt 900MHz data radios for well under $100.
If that is too progressive, the ARRL could sell NTS phone cards & free up that airspace used by the 100's of useless nets per day.
Kids have availed themselves of better wireless messaging techniques than the NTS system since about 1985! It is time to P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S people...
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KL7IPV on October 12, 2005
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I agree that NTS may be going away. ARES/Races may be also. We just had a drill here involving the City of Las Vegas, Clark County, the City of Henderson and the USAF, among others. Although ARES/Races ops were ready to assist and were on site to do so, we were not used. They did not figure ARES/Races operators into their scenario. They KNEW we were there and were impressed that we were. Maybe NEXT time we will be utilized but I wouldn't count on it.
This is an example where technology has caught up and passed us by. We now have to satisfy ourselves that this is a hobby and hope we can involve enough newcomers that the hobby doesn't disappear. Sadly, I don't know how we are going to do that with the mindset of so many that "the old way worked for a long time, it will continue to do so". The world is rapidly changing and we have too many that do not want to go along. At this rate, there wont be much to "go along" with unless we change at the same pace as the world and technology.
Last night in a room full of hams at our regular meeting of about 50 people I asked how many were UNDER 40 years old. Five (5) raised their hands. With a growth like that, I give us aobut 15 years and we wont have to worry about the hobby any more. It wont be here to worry about. Enjoy it while you can!
73,
Frank
KL7IPV
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by W8AD on October 12, 2005
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In addition to the posted comments here, there is another MAJOR reason NTS was valuable in its time. That is, when I got my first ham ticket in 1950 (W9JTN, Peoria, Il) you may recall that long distance land line phone calls could be VERY expensive. International calls, if you could get through at all, even more so.
Both costs then could be prohibitive for many people. Then, statistically, most NTS traffic was not for emergencies but simply to say to "Aunt Grace, we have arrived at Uncle John's house this afternoon. Everything OK".
Now, with very cheap landline long distance charges, "free" cell phone programs and really inexpensive international programs, all this has changed. EXCEPT, when all this new high tech infrastucture goes down during a disaster. Therefore, it seems that for NTS to be useful, and not an albatross, it needs to be entirely changed to handle real-time, instant traffic by new voice and digital modes, when the other services are down. If this is done, it will look nothing like it does today.
If it isn't, it's just another 50 year old "hobby within a hobby".
Don. W8AD
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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"free up that airspace used by the 100's of useless nets per day."
-----
NR01 - R - HXG - 11 - KC8VWM - Over Here - 18:09z Oct.17
K4RAF
Somewhere in 4 land
USA 1234
<BT>
Would you please just stop making sense all the darn time
<BT>
KC8VWM
<AR>
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KE4ZHN on October 12, 2005
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Ham radio for emergency comms is terribly obsolete today. Yes, it still works, and yes it can serve as a backup when all else fails. Its time to face the reality that technology has long passed us by as cutting edge.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 12, 2005
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What amateur radio can provide is a variety of different capabilities in the "toolkit". There are cases when one ham with his 5W CW rig can string up an antenna and provide emergency comms for his family and close neighbors. In other cases 2M FM provides good tactical communications. In other cases mobile units may be beyond 2M coverage and 40M SSB can be used. In the case of an EOC WinLink can be used to get emergency traffic past the outage and back onto the Internet. Ham radio has and can provide that variety as needed. Another benifit is that you often have hams already in the affected area and some of them may be able to provide some immediate assistance. The problem I see is all the bickering about this mode and that is not "real ham radio" and should not be used. My mode is better than your mode, etc.
To those few who think ham radio is outdated and can no longer provide any emergency services I say you are not paying attention or reading the reports of what was accomplished in the recent past. Ten thousand military sat phones perhaps but they didn't end up in the hands of the people manning the shelters. Every form of communications that can be made available is needed including ham radio and if possible, smoke signals. I never heard anyone in an affected area complaining of having too much communications available. What you will find is that as cellular and other infrastructure gets better they will be able to recover more quickly and ham radio will not be needed for as long a period - but it will always be needed. Good old common sense will tell you that any system that does not depend on a fixed infrastructure will "work when all else fails". It may be slow, it may be inefficient, and it may be yesterday's technology - but it works until you can get the infrastructure back on line.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 12, 2005
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Hey, I wouldn't complain too loud about the spectrum that nets take up. If a net has 50 stations checked in, that is freeing up 49 frequencies that can be used for rag chewing and working DX :-)
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by NL7W on October 12, 2005
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I agree with a majority of the posters here.
The NTS is a relic.
The System should be mounted in a glass case with a nice bio -- which includes a phrase saying something to this effect, "break glass in case of need."
73.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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I have found the serious, and concerned cognitive response to this thread quite refreshing. Let me toss in my perspective, from a 40+ year ham, who is not computer un-savvy.
For 6 years I was an administrative (RACES) radio officer for a good and effective communications aware county. I can tell you this, and these are the general categorical ways that Ham radio and Hams were looked upon in the ARES/RACES contingent:
1) Most such Hams were older, by mean average at least 50 years of age, and could or would often not sustain themselves for longer than a couple hours of activity. They also often had certain afflictions, such as cataracts, or high blood pressure that limited their utility and availability, and even made them a potential risk.
2) Most Ham operators were typically in the way, and under foot. This was once again primarily due to age and lack of agility (sometimes mental acuity -- due to age), but I did often note that the younger members of age 30 or so, were not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. This is not merely my conjecture, as I was often enough asked by a Division (FD) Chief, or one of his subordinates, “whats wrong with so and so!”
On the countering side, for those that think the communications expertise or “last ditch method” using Ham radio is not viable, I have seen it work very nicely. The reason for this is that “agencies” are wedded to “systems”. Systems have flaws! When a weak link flaw in the chain occurs, agencies either panic, or simply cease to function. This in fact is what helped the agency I worked with. The managing coordinator (the guy with the money) sought to fill such gaps in every system failure that revealed itself. This often pretty automatically obviated the Ham contingent, but systems always fail!
For those that worry that ham radio is dying, I too have those concerns. When I keep hearing younger (newbie) Hams asking about buying old Icom 730’s or even older radios, this concern is fortified. When I have asked these Hams what they have in the way of computer equipment and knowledge, it is often the reverse. They have networked computers (plural) in their home, a few laptops on wireless routers, and seem more savvy than I in what is out there and can be done in the computer world. Ask these 20 or 30 somethings what they know about Ham radio, and basic concepts of radio physics, and they most openly answer “not a whole lot”.
The next interesting and very telling answer about the health of Ham radio, when I ask -- how much money do you spend annually on Ham radio? The answer is quite typically “between $50.00 to $100.00 Dollars per year. I could not spend such a small annual figure on Ham radio without a very concerted effort! So, think about these things if the viability of Ham radio concerns you.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 12, 2005
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*************
wf7a:
I know that the NTS is geared for U.S. traffic handling--and maybe my ignorance is showing--but is there an NTS-type of organization for international H&W traffic handling? It occurs to me that if there isn't, maybe we shouldn't be so radio egocentric and participate, or help create, an international emergency/H&W traffic handling service. There are plenty of poorer countries/peoples who don't have access to cellphones, computers, etc., but could get hold of an amateur radio operator somewhere.
**************
The NTS does provide international links. Where the NTS can send messages to or receive messages from is very limited by international third-party rules. (i.e. foreign telephone companies are very jealous of their revenues)
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N3ZKP on October 12, 2005
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I was determined that I wasn't going to post any more on the hurricane situation but I cannot let the following statement go unchallenged.
<< The Red Cross and Salvation Army receive contract reimbursement from FEMA to perform these tasks.>>
I don't know where you are getting your information, but The Salvation Army DOES NOT get contract reimbursement from FEMA or any other government source to handle H&W or any other kind of radio traffic and never has.
73,
Lon - N3ZKP
Baltimore, Maryland
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KG4RUL on October 12, 2005
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Whiz Bang sytems are great as long as they are working. I remember, not that long ago, when most of the e-mail and internet connectivity in the Charleston, SC area was taken down by an irresponsible contractor ripping up one fiber optic trunk with a backhoe.
Dennis KG4RUL
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To Icomtech66 whom ever you are
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by K0BG on October 12, 2005
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Perhaps you need to go back and reread my post a couple of times. While you're at it, read AA4PBs and W8ADs too. It is just the exact attitude you harbor, that has put amateur radio in the lemon light (pun intended) it seems to be in at the moment.
Secondly, yours and a lot of other responders seem to think e-mail, cellphones, and other commercial communications infrastructure will remain in place no matter what.
As I said in the first post, we've been lucky. If we're ever unlucky like Afghanistan and Pakistan have just been, it will be the purportedly, disorganized, antiquated, "amateur radio hobbyists" who will indeed be the savour, your excursive view notwithstanding.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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The times they are a-changing
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by KF6IIU on October 12, 2005
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Out here on the west coast, we have hobby groups that fire up searchlights and hand-cranked air raid sirens and look for Japanese bombers. That is the equivalent of the NTS.
Considering FEMA was supposedly waving through cell-phone trucks and preventing amateurs from getting to their deployments in New Orleans, I'd say the times have changed. Let's got get too full of ourselves.
TCPIP now works OK over ham radio, can pass regular emails and other traffic over point to point links, and the people we support can continue to use their existing email clients liek Outlook. This is the model everyone seems to be working towards.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 12, 2005
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My comments:
Many, many of the evacuees did not have their email address books with them let alone their telephone books.
It doesn't do much good to try and get a H&W email message to grandma if you can't remember grandma's email address. A cell phone or sat phone doesn't help much if you can't remember a telephone number and 411 is blocked up so you can't get through.
That means there is *STILL* plenty of opportunity for amateurs to handle outgoing H&W from disaster areas. The NTS could be used for delivery of these types of messages either to the city of destination where the local phone book could be used (i.e. you don't have to block up 411 call centers) or to regional centers with internet white page access.
I expected to see a lot of this kind of traffic. I saw none coming into the Central Region. (btw. I *still* remember a lot of this kind of traffic coming into the lower 48 from Alaska in 1964 after the big earthquake up there.)
The BIGGEST problem is that many of the disaster agencies don't want us doing this. I can actually find you a quote to this effect from the latest QST if you wish confirmation. The reason given was something about equal treatment of all affected persons, if one shelter has a ham doing outgoing H&W and another doesn't then equal treatment is not being given --- my opinion? HOGWASH!!! That's like saying no shelter can offer doctors on staff if they all can't - who would put up with that kind of logic?
So the problem today would appear to NOT be the delivery process but rather the inflow process - it is being arbitrarily blocked.
How do we go about rectifying this? How do we go about serving those affected people who need to get a message to Uncle Joe in Podunk but can't remember his email address or telephone number? It is certainly a service we should be able to offer. Do we need to start a dialog with FEMA, with the Red Cross, the SA, etc? Or what?
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 12, 2005
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to ka1eec:
***************
ka1eec:"manually handled messages are obsolete except under extreme cases. The traffic system should be replaced with a multipoint e-mail relay network using amateur radio as the endpoints for transmission.
This kind of network would take messages originated by various relief organizations and hams dealing with health and safety, and relate to another site capable of injecting it into the Internet for delivery to the intended recipient.
There is nothing fancy here. And ordinary PC running an MTA such as postfix and a gateway to some digital mode of communication like mt63 or mfsk16 would work quite nicely. Even the transceiver needn't be fancy. One of the small radios from small wonder Labs would serve quite adequately to get the signal out of the disasters zone to someplace with a bit of working infrastructure.
One could even have multiple nodes for transmission to increase effective throughput.
I know someone's bound to raise regulatory objections and I'll argue that with a bit of backdoor convincing, the FCC would granted temporary waiver on handling this kind of traffic for the duration of emergency. At the very least, it would make good controversial PR if the FCC tried to shut down people doing good work. "
******************
I picked your message to reply to because it seemed pretty representative of many of the "anti" NTS messages.
Folks, have you ever talked to anyone that is in a partial state of shock after a disaster? Especially a disaster like this one?
How many of them remember their OWN telephone number let alone the telephone number of Aunt Betty? Even better, how many of them remember the *email* address of their boss let alone their mother?
Having a big ARS-email gateway only works if you know an email address to send to.
There IS a digital NTS system nationwide that uses HF pactor (and VHF packet bulletin boards in many cases) that will deliver messages nationwide with a moderate lag time. And you don't have to even have an email address or telephone number for an NTS message to get delivered. The biggest hangup for that delivery today is finding enough hams willing to use a phone book and call a telephone number to deliver a message. But that is a whole different subject. Supplement that with the manual NTS system and we still have a pretty capable network for handling traffic.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 12, 2005
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>>K8MHZ >>
>>Let me give you one example. Our local packet guru has a way to go to our Red Cross (or other) building and plug his packet system into their LAN. If they loose their Internet connection a link is seamlessly transferred to his system and a 'band aid' link to the nearest working Internet point is made, albeit at slow speed. The connection is fast enough to keep e-mail moving across the Internet. When the original connection comes back on, it is switched back automatically.>>
I have questions about this setup and many others like it that Winlink 2000 is promoting. How do you filter out the email messages that have a pecuniary interest to the Red Cross? How do you filter out web server traffic used to make donations and such? Do the "backup" links carry routine business traffic when the regular ISP links fail, even if it isn't an emergency?
It seems that most folks setting up these kinds of "backup" internet links use the reason of "emergency" to validate ignoring the FCC rules of what traffic may be passed via ham radio. Or maybe its just don't ask, don't tell.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 12, 2005
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If amateurs truely wish to become more effective in emergency communications, the first step is for them to quit pretending it is still 1964 and try to figure out how amateur radio can fit into the communications reality of 2005.
NA4IT gets it. Despite the 'when all else fails' crowd, he points out that amateur radio _did_ fail in Katrina, and when he writes
"THERE WERE NO HOME BASED AMATEUR RADIO OPERATORS IN THE HURRICANE AFFECTED AREA WITH WHICH TO PASS TRAFFIC!
"People evacuated (WISELY), antennas were obliterated, power was out, homes were flooded. The system was not broke, the operators on the "business" end were!"
He clearly states why it failed.
But, unlike the total doom-n-gloom crowd, he also gets that there is still a small role for hams in some emcomm situtations when he writes "I had to tell them, I will try, the message will have to be very short, and it may not get through because of the greater need for emergency communications." followed by "A couple of the message did get through."
Reread his post. It's the best comment so far in this thread.
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by AA4PB on October 12, 2005
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"THERE WERE NO HOME BASED AMATEUR RADIO OPERATORS IN THE HURRICANE AFFECTED AREA WITH WHICH TO PASS TRAFFIC!
----------------------------------------------------
And exactly what does a home based amateur radio operator in affected area do in regard to emergency or H&W traffic? The local phones and cell phones are out. The roads are closed and he can't get fuel for his vehicle. He can't communicate with non-hams in the local are except for his family and perhaps a few close neighbors. What is needed in the affected area is communications in support of shelters, food and water delivery services, etc. Home based stations are seldom in a position to provide much help. The fact that most local hams evacuated and were not on the air from home is certainly NOT a failure of amateur radio.
Think about all the hams that traveled to the affected area, set up stations and provided communications for the shelters, Red Cross, Salvation Army, and local agencies. They used a number of different bands and modes including WinLink. While there is always room for improvement, I'd say that amateur radio was a great success.
Now one very good point was made - a place where we can easily improve. Set up a link with some volunteer stations outside the area with Internet access who can research and look up phone numbers and/or e-mail addresses for outgoing H&W traffic. You can probably find a lot of these by checking the SATERN site where families outside the area posted the names of people they were looking for.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB1GMX on October 12, 2005
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K4RAF:
<<You can buy 1 watt 900MHz data radios for well under $100.>>
I'm curious, tell me more. Where do they exist and
what does "under $100" really get me?
Allison
KB1GMX
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 12, 2005
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How do you filter out the email messages that have a pecuniary interest to the Red Cross? How do you filter out web server traffic used to make donations and such? Do the "backup" links carry routine business traffic when the regular ISP links fail, even if it isn't an emergency?
----------------------------------------------------
Jim, you need to go look at the WinLink home page. The people at the served agencies do not use WinLink for routine traffic. They have an "Emergency E-Mail" icon on the desktop. They only use it to send emergency traffic in the event of an emergency when their normal e-mail service is down. All of the server traffic does not automatically switch over and flow thru WinLink in the event of an outage.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0XMZ on October 12, 2005
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WA6BFH said:
"When I keep hearing younger (newbie) Hams asking about buying old Icom 730’s or even older radios, this concern is fortified. When I have asked these Hams what they have in the way of computer equipment and knowledge, it is often the reverse. They have networked computers (plural) in their home, a few laptops on wireless routers, and seem more savvy than I in what is out there and can be done in the computer world."
I too bought an older radio for HF, an IC-725. I also have networked computers in my house. I think the answer to your question lies in cost. I can build a PC for less than $300, about the same as what I paid for my used HF rig (which was a steal compared to those outragous prices on ebay). Fortunately the dual-band HT was only $180 new. A lot of us youngsters simply can't afford $1000+ rigs.
-----------------------------------------------------
As far as the NTS goes, I will have to agree with those that say it should remain in place due to the fact that the cellphones & Internet service can (and occsionally do) go out. I've never participated in the NTS, but I will dare to make a few suggestions based on what I've heard on our local (twice daily) nets.
Every time the net gathers on a local repeater, I hear about 20-some stations check in but hardly ever is there any traffic. Why not have the "powers that be" simply generate practice messages on a regular basis? It would probably increase participation and, more importantly, provide for real training.
I've read numerous posts where people complain about "poor message-handling skills". I think the reason is obvious. Skills aren't just learned overnight by reading a book. When I learned to play the guitar, I had to PRACTICE on a daily basis. Maybe if the net provided training messages to pass on, I'd get involved. But if participating in a net consists of me keying up the mic up and saying "N0XMZ - no traffic", what good would that do?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 12, 2005
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Its time to face the reality that technology has long passed us by as cutting edge.
-----------------------------------------------------
Amateur radio works exactly because for the most part it is NOT on the cutting edge of technology. Most cutting edge communications technology is infrastucture dependent which makes it more succeptible to being taken out. Now most of amateur radio IS taking advantage of currently available consumer grade technology. We now have smaller and more portable radios, HTs and repeaters, and new digital modes to work with. 1MB data rates is NOT the primary requirement of emergency communications.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 12, 2005
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>>AA4PB>>
>>Jim, you need to go look at the WinLink home page. The people at the served agencies do not use WinLink for routine traffic. They have an "Emergency E-Mail" icon on the desktop. They only use it to send emergency traffic in the event of an emergency when their normal e-mail service is down. All of the server traffic does not automatically switch over and flow thru WinLink in the event of an outage.>>
Read the description from K8MHZ again.
>>If they loose their Internet connection a link is seamlessly transferred to his system and a 'band aid' link to the nearest working Internet point is made, albeit at slow speed. The connection is fast enough to keep e-mail moving across the Internet.>>
It says the internet connection (and by implication the email routing) "automatically" switches to the Winlink link. Do you really think the regular email icon is taken off the screen "automatically" too?
A few months ago someone else questioned one of these installations that operated the same way in another eham thread. If I remember right, there wasn't even any switching. The link was just plugged into the router and functioned as a 'slow speed connection'.
I'm not sure the Winlink page really covers all the installations and how they are done. Kinda like Winlink users always listen so they won't transmit over other folks in their bandwidth.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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For N0XMZ, and others who may not have gotten my point -- you NEED to spend more money on Ham radio for it to be healthy!
I’m not saying you should break the bank, or let the kids run around barefoot because you spent money on a new radio, but you must do the following. You need to budget an average expenditure of $300.00 Dollars per year on Ham radio. This could be one $1200.00 Dollar purchase that covers you for the next 4 years, or a $600.00 Dollar purchase that covers you for two years.
Here is why. Ham radio is getting older by mean age. Even if younger Hams get involved, the Ham population (of licensed Amateur radio operators) WILL NOT exceed the population at large. Older Hams will typically not spend money on radios. They need medicine and other things that the budget CAN’T (not won’t) allow. They are also set in their ways. That old IC-7800 will likely carry me until my death (hopefully not)!
Younster (newbie) Hams need to spend bigger bucks ($300.00 bucks a year ain’t much) to keep the manufactures healthy. Believe me, I am basing this on if every Ham (on the books) spent this kind of money. Many hams that are now on the books, are either not active, or maybe are dead.
You should actually spend more than $300! I will try and cover you for a bit (HiHi)!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 12, 2005
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<<K4RAF>>
<<The NTS system should be replaced by a nationwide 902-928MHz, 1.2GHz, 2.4GHz or 3.3GHz data system. You can buy 1 watt 900MHz data radios for well under $100.>>
Like KB1GMX, I'm curious, tell me more. Where do they exist andwhat does "under $100" really get me?
<<If that is too progressive, the ARRL could sell NTS phone cards & free up that airspace used by the 100's of useless nets per day.>>
<<Kids have availed themselves of better wireless messaging techniques than the NTS system since about 1985! It is time to P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S people... >>
Ok, so every ham puts up a 2.4 Ghz station for data transmission and they are all linked together so we can send traffic from one end to other and everywhere in between. Just exactly what messages are we going to send over this NEW-NTS data system? Where do they originate from? What format do they use? Where do they terminate? What addressing is used?
You don't explain your idea very well. You mainly criticize the current system but don't have anything useful to replace it with!
Jim
WA0LYK
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0AH on October 12, 2005
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Nice article Steve.
For LOCAL search and rescue missions, and emergency operations here in the USA, 2 meter handhelds and base stations are great.
However, quickly repaired cell phone access, satellite internet access, and over-all coordination of confused local, state, and federal agencies, along with major disaster relief organizations, makes NTS operations difficult.
Too many chiefs, not enough indians. You really have to blaze your own trail if you are going to respond to a disaster as a ham. This was my third time out, first to a hurricane, and the most frustrating. I listened to too many people and wasted a lot of time.
JUST go where you feel needed the most and go to where they need you to solve a problem. You'll figure it out on the way, and when it is time to come home before you become a problem. But it is a fine line and can change fast. Illusions are common place.
In my experiences in Mississippi, lack of sucess with NTS communication with NTS in Katrina was simple.
Record breaking solar flares KILLING HF, intense local RFI by downed power lines in the most effected areas, and mixed information as to what type of communications were to be allowed on the HF traffic bands. Not that complicated.
I agree with others regarding getting NTS communcations from disaster areas to the rest of the U.S.A..
But we need to relay upon updated reliable communications that compete with today's other technologies. Using creative, and much more effective communication tools within our spectrum, is a great place to start.
Perhaps if the ARRL could put up a geostationary working satellite, with Uncle Sam's help, we could all be better off for it-
Wish it was that simple-
73
Paul N0AH
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0AH on October 12, 2005
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REGARDING INTERNATIONAL NTS TRAFFIC
I was in Swaziland (Africa, 3DA0) a couple of years ago on a DX'pedition. With the highest rate of AID's in the world, I became the only 4th member of the Swaziland Amatuer radio club. A friend of mine became the 5th.
Since that country has been begging for assistance for eions, I don't think applying a NTS model will do much good.
Of the 315+- countries I have worked, the rare ones outside DX'peditions typically are missionaries or relief agency workers.
I don't think the suggestion of recognizing how well an established NTS system would work in the 3rd world earth. But we have to wonder who is there to make it work.
It is not always an infrastructure issue, but one of keeping your head off a plate. This really is a good thread. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but a true country wide NTS model seems to apply to a short list of countries somewhere in between modern times and the dark ages.
Unless all the conditions are good, relaying on MARS etc.....for traffic is a tough sale for international emergency help. Yes, there are exceptions. A recent traffic message on a hurricane net a few years back saved the crew of a sinking ship. But once again, sattelite communications is replacing HF.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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...We didn't have enough hams in the affected area
...We had too much emergency traffic to bother with handling H&W traffic
...People had poor message handling skills
...Disaster agencies didn't want us sending in H&W traffic because it was unequal and unfair treatment of people located in other shelters.
...Hams have cataracts, or high blood pressure that limited their utility and availability, and even made them a potential risk.
...NTS is for sending emergency traffic and H&W traffic is always secondary.
...NTS is not for emergencies but simply to say to "Aunt Grace, we have arrived at Uncle John's house this afternoon. Everything OK".
...We had a killer solar flare
etc...etc...etc...
....So is NTS broke?
Sounds to me like NTS didn't get messages to and from family members in the affected area any differently or any better than the 100's of non functioning cell phone towers did.
I stood by waiting to handle NTS traffic on my local NTS net every day.
...YET, I here is what I was waiting for:
...Traffic that never came.
...Training that I did for no apparent purpose or reason.
...Family members that never got a single message through to my location during the largest natural disaster in US history.
Yet our slogan is:
"When all else fails" ?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 12, 2005
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1 watt with an SMA antenna connector
10 units @$99ea, 30@$85 100@$75
http://www.maxstream.net/products/xstream/module/9xstream.php
http://www.maxstream.net/web-special/
-Plug-and-communicate (default mode - no configuration required).
-True peer-to-peer network (no need to configure a "Master" radio).
-Transparent mode supports existing software applications and legacy systems.
-Addressing capabilities provide for point-to-point and point-to-multipoint networks.
-Uses Standard AT commands and/or fast binary commands for changing parameters.
-Native RS485/422 (multi-drop bus) protocol support.
-Retry and acknowledgements of packets provides guaranteed delivery of critical packets in difficult environments.
This is just 1 of many building blocks in 902-928MHz alone. There are similar ones for 1.2 & 2.4GHz.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4IQT on October 12, 2005
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Do you have a fire extinguisher in your garage or kitchen? How many times have you had to put out a real fire with it?
Do you keep life jackets on your boat? When was the last time your boat sank with you on it?
Do you have expensive airbags in your dashboard and maybe in your inside door pillar? Have you ever been hit head-on or broadsided by a drunk driver?
Does your antenna have a lightning arrestor in addition to the really good grounding system we "all" (??) have? Did the antenna get hit by lightning in the last few years?
So, even though it might take a nuclear war or a level 8 earthquake to bring us down to ham radio being about the only alternative to couriers, should we maintain an NTS with a cadre of well-trained traffic handlers?
Of course! We don't use NTS for the flooding over in the next county, we don't get much use of it when there is a Katrina or Rita and there are useable commercial or governmental communications of some sort working. But when we will need it, and eventually we will, we would rue the day we let it die if we don't take care of it.
By the way, the ARRL did not create the acronym "BPL", and whether you support the league or not, keep your facts straight and don't start talking about weapons of mass destruction unless you have facts at hand. I mean league intentions, not WMD. Sorry. Just too much exposure to people who massage the evidence until it looks like the facts they want. And, the ARRL is not the evil empire.
73
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 12, 2005
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Jim, I read the statement that their system does automatic switching of all their internet traffic. If it does then it is not WinLink, it is not legal and their trustee is nuts. From what I read WinLink uses an application that runs on the network server. A different copy of Outlook has to be opened to route the emergency traffic to that server application. It does not run all the time and just automatically route standard e-mail traffic thru WinLink any time they loose their ISP. The users have to knowingly decide to send e-mail traffic over the emergency system.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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Do you have a fire extinguisher in your garage or kitchen? How many times have you had to put out a real fire with it?
You better hope it actually works when you need to activate it in order to put out the fire...
Otherwise, the grand idea of just having "it" there looking pretty just in case you need it, is only providing yourself with a false sense of security.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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Keep a box of baking Soda in reach within the kitchen, or even when camp-cooking!
Better living through chemistry -- baking soda makes Carbon Dioxide to put out a grease fire!
Just rip open the box, or toss the box in and all!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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You must be one of those "resourceful" kind of hams...
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by ICOMTECH66 on October 12, 2005
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Dont you people understand that Ham radio is not a hobby but a service....
when all else fails -- when the military loses the comms -- when the commercial segments comms are down --when the police and fire can't get through -- HAM RADIO DOES...
sure our average age and IQ are the same but hey -- high 60's aren't something to laugh at --its to fear...
and everytime there is a car wreck or fire or anything and I hear it on my scanner and rush to the seen -- i see plenty of fear in the first responder's eyes as i get out of my 1967 Station Wagon with its orange whoppy light on top and 13 antennas on the roof...
and don't pretent that you guys aren't slepping better at night knowing that there are ARES and RACES personnel out there, orange vests at the ready to go in and do the job when nothing wlse gets through.
Why rely on high speed vulnerable communication, SATPHONES, Internet, UHF/VHF, wireless, etc when we have folks that can send 5 wpm through anything that they face -- sure it may take them 2 hours to get a complete message through -- but damn it -- if this same technology was good enough for the railroads 100 years ago -- its damn well good enough for the rednecks of Lousiana and Texas...
but Ham is a service, a lifestyle, a driven purpose. Just the other day I swear that President Bush himself said that the biggest regret he had was that he never became a ham himself ...
But I for one am proud to be a member of the worlds most elite fighting force -- no not Special Operations -- but the trusted orange vested ARES member -- responding to emergencies that cause most military and law enforcement officers to shun....
HAM RADIO -- A SERVICE -- AN ATTITUDE -- A CHOICE!!!!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 12, 2005
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<<AA4PB>>
<<Jim, I read the statement that their system does automatic switching of all their internet traffic. If it does then it is not WinLink, it is not legal and their trustee is nuts. From what I read WinLink uses an application that runs on the network server. A different copy of Outlook has to be opened to route the emergency traffic to that server application. It does not run all the time and just automatically route standard e-mail traffic thru WinLink any time they loose their ISP. The users have to knowingly decide to send e-mail traffic over the emergency system.>>
Keep in mind the 'router--radio link--internet connection' set up for Winlink to use isn't limited to Winlink traffic only! One can easily use this connection for anything you want, not just Winlink traffic. Winlink's answer is they don't condone it, just like they don't condone transmitting without listening on HF. Doesn't mean it isn't done, and worse it doesn't mean that its use isn't spread by Winlink fanatics.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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On Field Day I cook (as opposed to ROCK)!
I can do CW too!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB9X on October 12, 2005
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>> So, even though it might take a nuclear war or a level 8 earthquake to bring us down to ham radio being about the only alternative to couriers, should we maintain an NTS with a cadre of well-trained traffic handlers?
If there were a nuclear war or a level-8 earthquake, NTS would be non-operational. Its operation depends on a schedule of regular nets, populated by people in different geographic areas. Such a widespread disaster would remove so many people from the system that it could not operate in anything approximating a normal manner.
It is my contention that Katrina was sufficiently close to a nuclear war or a level-8 earthquake to at least give NTS a test. The level of activity that it created in NTS was so tiny as to illustrate that long-haul amateur-radio traffic simply did not exist for the Katrina event. Would it exist if the disaster was more widespread? I don't think so.
However, I agree that NTS is a good source of trained traffic handlers. But how do you suggest that NTS actually be maintained? The examples you gave -- fire extinguishers, life preservers, lightening arrestors -- do not require the day-in day-out efforts of hundreds of dedicated voluneers. NTS does.
How do we motivate people to participate in NTS and maintain their interest on a continuing basis? Since the purpose of the system is to handle traffic, seems to me that the only source of ongoing motivation is meaningful traffic that participants can handle on a daily basis. Where is that traffic going to come from?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 12, 2005
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Now that you mention it, I seem to recall baking a few things at field day myself...
They were primarily radio parts.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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As opposed to some of these youngsters (who get just a little too irritating about traditional Ham methods and values), I think Ham radios basic -- not too structured -- system is a good thing. NTS Nets could also be a good thing. I’m a little to old to be too interested (and I’m pretty sure my 1960’s NTS skills would come back to me pretty quickly), but I encourage younger Hams to practice using this method, if even for only practice messages.
I would also encourage younger Hams to become better technically fluent -- I mean in terms of radio physics. Its nice to know how to build-up and plug in a bunch of PC boards to build your own computer but, knowing how Mother Nature works, and even maybe a bit of iCW is not a bad thing either.
In fact all of these skills are fundamental to a healthy Ham radio service/hobby (or pick your own phrase)!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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You could try throwing Baking Soda in your radio?
I have never tried that.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by WB0M on October 12, 2005
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Yes, it's time for the NTS to be revamped, but it’s not obsolete. It has to work with existing technologies, but there is still a place for the NTS and amateur radio in emergencies. It should be as first responders. Radio ops. can be in place before portable cell towers or sat phones become available.
And just because cells phones are available, doesn't mean they'll work or be accessible to the public. Katrina is a good example: cell tower sites ran out of fuel or were knocked out by wind/rain and what survived was swamped by sheer volume.
One thing most often overlooked is that the “affected” person is usually not a high priority for emergency officials once they are safe. I have seen this time and time again at disasters: once the people are okay, they're on their own. It would be nice to give them some options and chance to let someone know they're okay. This is where we can help.
There were all these people in shelters with few lines of communications open to them. Ham radio operators ready to take an "I'm alive" message should be used.
And the NTS would be an advantage in smaller emergencies, too, like forest fires where hundreds of people arrive at staging camps and don't have the time or access to send an "arrived at fire okay, will call soon" message (not too many phones lines set up at fire camps in the first 48 hours).
Again, we have to be able to react quick and help people and not only officials & agencies.
The messages do need to be streamlined. A name, location & phone number should work most times considering our access to the internet.
And Radiograms should be updated.
There is much NTS can do, but officials have to recognize this and work with the local hams. It will take good Emcomm leaders to point this out.
And for those of you who don’t want to help: good. Stay on the porch and stay out of the way.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by W8WZ on October 12, 2005
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I agree that NTS seems to be in a time of transition.
More of a fun thing to do - and a good way to train instead of a vital community service.
I also agree that the ARRL seems to be focusing less on NTS than they used to.
Funny example:
I had been a non active ham for several years - when I got back into it I went to a ham fest and saw all these hams wearing buttons that said "NO BPL!" and I thought - what on EARTH do these wackos have against the Brass Pounder's League?
I guess ARRL doesn't do that anymore.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 12, 2005
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> Amateur radio works exactly because for the most
> part it is NOT on the cutting edge of technology.
I guess that depends rather heavily on what you mean by 'works'.
> Most cutting edge communications technology is
> infrastucture dependent which makes it more
> succeptible to being taken out.
It's not that simple. While cutting edge systems rely on infrastructure, they are also very good at applying redundancy to that infrastructure.
In the '89 Loma Prieta earthquake, for example, the communications system worked flawlessly in San Francisco. It worked, in fact, everywhere in the bay area except for a few blocks of downtown Santa Cruz. And that was 16 years ago. We've had 16 years of experience since then.
> Now most of amateur radio IS taking advantage of
> currently available consumer grade technology.
To a small extent. Even CE grade stuff is starting to surpass what's available in amateur radio.
When the world trade center was destroyed, it took part of the communication infrastructure with it. Never-the-less, that day, the cell system in New York City handled two billion phone calls -- double the average number for a day in NYC.
There are times when amateur flexibility can be an asset, and Katrina demonstrated that. But those times are getting fewer and farther between, and the old way of doing things is getting less and less effective.
If hams want to see their role in emergency communication not shrink farther, than they need to get a realistic view of the communication infrastructure and figure out where they can fit in.
Pretending that it's 1964 and that "hams get through when all else fails" is getting in the way of doing that -- almost as much as the ARRL's attempt to reimplement the infrastructure of the internet with silly ideas like emcomm via winlink or hinternet.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 12, 2005
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One good example of “future think” that I know the Ham radio (ARES/RACES) community did not buy into was as follows.
The county that I was involved in installed a number of packet nodes. There were eleven mountaintop nodes that were jointly operated by county, and state OES. There were two 219 MHz high speed “backbones”.
The system was up and working for years. Plans were made to standardize packet file formats, such that wild fire logistics, earthquake scenarios, and other similar events would require a minimum of manual key type entry.
The Ham community did not gear up to use the system. They were not computer savvy, and thought buying a computer to be an unusually expensive proposition. This was in the late 1980’s!
I was amazed by this, considering that many of these Hams owned 2 Meter radios (from the 1970’s) that were useful (in California) for little more than packet.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KD7YVV on October 13, 2005
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You know, it seems people are forgetting something.
Back in the late 1960's when my dad worked for NBC,
cameras were large monstrosities. When videotape was
invented, it was 2 inches wide, and was wound on large
bulky reels. Color television was used for only "special
presentations", and things like touch tone phones and
direct dialing long distance did not exist.
To make a long distance call, you HAD to go through an
Operator, and if you were calling internationally, it
took 3 or more people to set up the call, and the
Operator called you back!
My how times have changed. Now you can be reached anywhere
on the planet, even if there is no electricity within
10 miles of where you are thanks to cellular technology.
We have digital color video cameras that can fit in the
palm of your hand. Same with color TV.
Even ham equipment has changed, from tubes to "solid
state" (I still have an 8 transistor radio that says
that) transistors to IC chips. And technology is
getting smaller still. For those that watched the
1960's Star Trek, back then it was neat to see old
Cap'n Kirk whip out his communicator, say "Kirk to
Enterprise" and immediately he was connected to
someone 500+ miles up in orbit. Little did Gene
Roddenberry know how prophetic it would be.
We have cellphones now with voice dialing, and I just
read an article about "Star Trek"-like communicators
for use in a hospital.
Read it, it's quite good... [GRIN]
http://www.forbes.com/technology/2004/03/16/cx_ah_0316chips.html
Just out of curiosity, when did "When all else fails"
become our motto?
All else will NEVER fail. Sure, phones will go down,
electricity will go out, but somewhere, someplace,
even in a disaster zone, a cellphone is bound to
work. (Until the battery dies. :))
I do agree the NTS needs to be totally re-vamped.
It needs to be made more efficient, and new hams need
to be brought into the ranks. I don't think everyone
should go out and learn morse code, and build a
radio from Model T condensors, but everyone should
have some form of emergency communications training.
One of the things that was mentioned was the inability
of different agencies to talk to each other due to
incompatible radio systems. There was talk of a
"national frequency" for disaster use on CNN.
We as hams have a golden opportunity to avail ourselves
of technologies our fathers and grandfathers could
only dream of 30 years ago. We already have a national
network (little used as it is), and we already pass
message traffic among agencies with incompatible
communications systems. Personally, I think the
national frequency idea is a bad one.
Here in the Seattle area, when we had the Nisqually
Earthquake, the trunked radio system was completely
overwhelmed. Imagine all the towns trying to use it
all at the same time. (Seattle, Kirkland, Bellevue,
Redmond, Bothell, Issaquah....I could go on.)
Now try that same thing nationally.....
With standard emergency communications training
like the ARRL Emergency Comm courses, everyone can be
on the same page. Different departments have different
10-codes, and abbreviations for different things.
The NTS uses a standardized format. I can go to
any ham that has a standard radiogram form, and know
exactly how to fill it out, anywhere in the USA.
What CNN and everyone is proposing is something we
already have. Geared up, a properly run net can be
quite speedy in passing traffic.
Oh, and for you people that say morse is outdated....
http://www.eham.net/articles/11001
Also, for the gentleman who made comments about
orange vest wearing people, believe it or not, I DO
have one in the trunk of my car, along with a water
jug that gets changed every 3 months without fail,
a first aid kit, flares, and a fire extinguisher.
I also have basic first aid and CPR training.
I don't know about where you live, but here, in the
mountains, some highways can be quite dark and
dangerous in the wintertime. I'd rather wear the
orange vest and "look like a dork" than not wear it
and possibly end up dead.
Recently we had a woman stop to help at an accident
scene who was struck and killed. It seems the driver
that hit her, didn't see her. Better safe than sorry.
I'll wear the vest, thankyouverymuch. :)
As far as the comments about "old farts complaining about their lumbago and grumbling about ham radio
changing", I say this:
There are old hams, there are bold hams, but there
are no old, bold hams. Same goes for old electricians.
Sure, older hams will look at new technology with a
bit of skepticism, eyebrow askance, doubt in their
mind, and speak fondly of their tried and true radios
and methods, because they know, the equipment they
have has been tried, and proven to work.
I've never met a closed-minded ham who wasn't curious
about new technology. Even my Dad, who never got his
license had doubts about the "newfangled" videotape
took the time to examine this new technology and
eventually embraced it in his daily work.
First and formost though, we are part of the Amateur
Service. It seems a lot of people have forgotten
that. My station, the first aid and CPR skills I've
learned, and my time will always be ready to help
should I ever be needed to serve.
Do I sit around waiting for a served agency to contact
me, every day, 24/7 just waiting for the phone to ring?
I certainly do NOT. I live life, and enjoy it to the
fullest. I'm just glad I took the time to learn some
valuable skills that may come in handy someday,
and yes, "someday" has already happened once.
I leave you with this url:
www.arrl.org/acode.html
It seems a few people have forgotten it....
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 13, 2005
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One can easily use this connection for anything you want, not just Winlink traffic
---------------------------------------------------
Of course some individual can use the emergency e-mail link for non-emergency traffic. People can use SSB or any other mode on ham radio to pass illegal traffic. What I am saying is that the WinLink server is ***not*** configured to automatically route all e-mail traffic via WinLink when their ISP fails. Yes, some yahoo could install his own software to do that just like you could set the local Pizza hut up with a phone patch to take orders via the local 2M repeater. It is not normally done that way however and if someone does it will be taken down when others or the FCC find out about it. Only certain people have the software installed on their computers to send e-mail via WinLink and they are supposedly trained in what traffic can be send via the emergency system.
My guess would be that the gentleman who said his packet guru had the system set up to automatically route all server traffic via packet when the ISP goes down probably does not know all the details of how the system actually works.
Anyway, WinLink handles the problem by NOT being a fully automatic system.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0IU on October 13, 2005
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To WA6BFH:
I knew it would eventually happen. Your true colors are finally showing through. You claim to have this fascination, nay, obsession with the scientific exploration of the VHF/UHF modes. But yet, when it comes to sinking over $10k into the hobby (or service) in order to keep it alive, where do you decide to spend it??? For that kinda dough you can have your pick of lots and lots and lots of VHF/UHF gear, but NO!!!
You said, "That old IC-7800 will likely carry me until my death (hopefully not)!"
OK, so it does 6 meters, but you must admit that it is fully loaded bells and whistles HF rig... you know, the kind that does 20 meters, otherwise known as "The Easy Band.
Oh John, how can I ever trust you again?
NØIU
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 13, 2005
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<<KB9X>>
<<However, I agree that NTS is a good source of trained traffic handlers. But how do you suggest that NTS actually be maintained? The examples you gave -- fire extinguishers, life preservers, lightening arrestors -- do not require the day-in day-out efforts of hundreds of dedicated voluneers. NTS does.>>
<<How do we motivate people to participate in NTS and maintain their interest on a continuing basis? Since the purpose of the system is to handle traffic, seems to me that the only source of ongoing motivation is meaningful traffic that participants can handle on a daily basis. Where is that traffic going to come from?>>
<<AE6IP>>
<<There are times when amateur flexibility can be an asset, and Katrina demonstrated that. But those times are getting fewer and farther between, and the old way of doing things is getting less and less effective.>>
<<If hams want to see their role in emergency communication not shrink farther, than they need to get a realistic view of the communication infrastructure and figure out where they can fit in.>>
<<Pretending that it's 1964 and that "hams get through when all else fails" is getting in the way of doing that -- almost as much as the ARRL's attempt to reimplement the infrastructure of the internet with silly ideas like emcomm via winlink or hinternet.>>
You both have pretty much hit the nail on the head. I believe we need to catagorize our communications into two areas and not mix them up -- emcomm and (for lack of a better description) Health & Welfare. The Gulf States net had two freqs in use during Katrina, one for Emergency/EOC and one for H&W. The EM/EOC net had quite a bit of traffic and appeared to be very useful. For any number of reasons, the H&W was basically useless. From text above, H&W was restricted because we couldn't get access in shelters for several reasons.
The NTS system for EM/EOC appeared to operate very well and was probably doesn't need changing. However, it is useful only for semi-tactical traffic within the region. I think most of us are questioning the need for the long-haul H&W traffic part of NTS. I know I expected to see SOME H&W on the local, regional, and sectional nets but I didn't see ANY.
It seems to me the ARRL needs to focus on a means for generating outgoing traffic with the sole purpose of H&W. Why can't the NGO's operating shelters ask a question during processing if there is someone they would like to contact outside the area. If they have a phone number or email address, great. If not, the NGO could say we will try to deliver this but you need to personally try to contact the party as soon as possible. They could turn the message over to an NTS liason to attempt delivery. Or even use NTS as an alternate delivery route for insurance. The ARRL could sign an MOU with these NGO's that allow us access to any shelter for this purpose.
If we don't focus and pursue a means of obtaining originating traffic then I am not sure the NTS long haul network will remain viable. I know the ARRL has focused on ARES and EM/EOC and perhaps they either don't consider H&W worthwhile or don't have the resources to do both.
I certainly don't know the answers to these questions. You do have to wonder if the regional and sectional nets are worth the time and effort of the dedicated folks that meet every night.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 13, 2005
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" NTS would be an advantage in smaller emergencies, too, like forest fires where hundreds of people arrive at staging camps and don't have the time or access to send an "arrived at fire okay, will call soon" message (not too many phones lines set up at fire camps in the first 48 hours)."
Does 'within 24 hours' count?
http://www.dailywireless.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4456
You are simply dreaming up reasons & purposes that have been eclipsed by other methods, services & non-amateur personnel. People can route their own traffic. We should be helping them do that with systems, not net controls & hand holding. If you can't live your life without a net, perhaps you should stay home & out of the way!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 13, 2005
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"Just out of curiosity, when did "When all else fails" become our motto?"
I don't know about you all but this is nothing but a brandname campaign to me. A misguided (and old) one at that. With the multiple layers of services, I agree 1000% that something will work, sometime, some way. ALL ELSE will not fail as the advertisement wishes.
It is my feeling that as communications fanatics, we should be providing systems & services that doesn't make outlandish assumptions about necessity.
I'd simply call it "Is it in you?"
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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"Also, for the gentleman who made comments about
orange vest wearing people, believe it or not, I DO
have one in the trunk of my car, along with a water
jug that gets changed every 3 months without fail,
a first aid kit, flares, and a fire extinguisher.
I also have basic first aid and CPR training."
----
I completely agree with you that this is just a plain common sense thing to do and has nothing to do with the idea of playing whacker deputy Joe or anything.
The Red Cross has some excellent guidelines for personal safety equipment every motorist should have in their vehicles. Does this mean following these guidelines makes us all whackers if we have should have items such as a flashlight, flares, first aid kit, spare tire, safety vest or a fire extinguisher located in our vehicles?
No, it means we have our common sense and our wits about us. I am simply amazed at how many motorists don't have so much as a simple flashlight in their vehicle to change a flat tire on the side of the road at night. Yes, believe it or not, flats can happen at night too...
Flares and safety vest too are a good way to prevent yourself from becoming one with the pavement when an 80,000 lb truck goes whizzing by your ears in the dark too.
So ask yourself, now who's looking like the fool? The person who is equipped to handle the situation at hand or is it the one who is broken down and completely ill equipped and ends up as splatter soup on the asphalt?
Personal safety equipment present in a person's vehicle doesn't paint them as some sort of whacker deputy Joe. It makes them a safe, prepared and well rounded citizen that knows how to take care of them self should the situation arise.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 13, 2005
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<<AA4PB>>
<<Of course some individual can use the emergency e-mail link for non-emergency traffic. People can use SSB or any other mode on ham radio to pass illegal traffic. What I am saying is that the WinLink server is ***not*** configured to automatically route all e-mail traffic via WinLink when their ISP fails. >>
I am not saying the Winlink SERVER is sending all email traffic via the backup link. I am saying the main router will send anything destined for the internet via this link. First, if I was setting it up, from a security standpoint, all internet connections would go through my main router and firewall. Unless the router is specifically programmed to only send/receive one IP address to/from the internet (i.e. Winlink email server) via the backup link and no others, the router will use this link for anything it can.
The special email program you are talking about on client computers will only connect to the Winlink server on the internet and quite truthfully, will probably use any link available on the router. To do otherwise requires special programming on the agencies routers. This means the traffic sent to the Winlink backup internet connection is under control of the agency, not the trustee. Personally, I would not want to trust some geek programming the router to always set it up with this special programming.
Jim
WA0LYK
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KG2V on October 13, 2005
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I always get a kick out of the comments about bulky power hungry computers and QRP rigs saving the day
Folks - Laptops run a LONG time on internal power, and even longer when you hook them to an external 12v battery. Modern 100w radios don't draw that much current either - An Icom 706 drawa a MAX of 20 amps, and if you are running SSB, it's going to be a lot less than that. I really don't worry about running on a 7Ah Gell cell. If you are out providing emergency Comms on HF, I really really doubt you WALKED to the site. A 90Ah (aka Car Battery sized) is a reasonable battery - and I know for a fact that you can run a 706 and a laptop for > 24 hrs on one - On field day, every person at our 3A station runs their laptop and rig (706, MkV Field, Kenwood) on one for each location, and we have NO problems
In addition, your batteries CAN be recharged - let's face it - hook it up to your car and charge it - burn the 1/2 gallon of gas
Yes, we can all come up with a scenario where the guy with the QRP rig and a wire tapping two wires together (because his key got wrecked) saves the day, but in reality, HF stations are going to be brought by vehicle to a semi-secure to secure spot, you'll probably be indoors or in a tent, with something to put your rig on, and something to sit on. If you don't have that, you probably are not going to have the time or place to put up a NN-NNN ft long long antenna - and you'll probably be relaying traffic via VHF/UHF to a guy who is IN a place that is in a more secure area
The reality of modern Emcomm is this - we need to provide FAST (and 30wpm is NOT fast) highly efficent communication to the end users - They are going to probably want WRITTEN communications. This implies digital modes - which is why SOMETHING like WinLink is important. Not saying that winlink is the be all/end all, but the fact that you are going to get communictions right into the email system outside the disaster area (if not even having email INSIDE the disaster are) is a big deal
Want to make a served agency REALLY like you today? Show up with a few 802.11 WiFi routers, a bunch a HIGH gain antennas, stop on the edge of the area that still has intenet, and setup one end of the link, and start stringing 802.11 repeaters until you get 802.11 to where the served agency is. Is it ham radio? Nope. Is that REAL EmComm? Folks, that sure is where it's going. I know that the Port Authority of NY has setup a bunch of containers that are self contained WiFi access points, and a Sat internet connection. Take that, and a couple of laptops, and you've done BETTER for the people who need comms than all our ham gear
At one time, we were the only people who could get communications out of an area, and communications to a satelite was a BIG deal - today, it's something you carry around in a small bag, and once you have signal up to the bird - you have communications out of the area
That's why, around here, we are concentrating our ARES work on 3 things - VHF/UHF "Tactical" comms - Winlink, and, believe it or not, Wifi mesh extention/computer network extention. Remember - if you have a working computer network - you have telephone too - VOiP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by ICOMTECH66 on October 13, 2005
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When all else fails -- ham radio saves the day ... everytime!!!
NTS is still viable -- hell they use if on Air Force One dont they ??? -- cellphones and internet are the true enemy. Who wants to be able to send message traffic via a computer or cellphone instantly anywhere in the wolrd in a matter of nanoseconds when the same message could take 5 hours to get through via NTS...
In fact I have heard that the CIA and SOCOM are thinking about drafting some ham radio operators back into service so they are guaranteed to have reliable comms...
And since Ham radio is a Service -- we should be compensated for our service -- anyone with a ham radio antenna on his property should not have to pay property tax -- anytime you key the mic (even for a radio check) during times of emergency you should be given tax credit for that month the way that military gets tax relief for serving in combat zones...
and dammit -- we should get as many orange vests we want for free..
Ham Radio -- its not a hobby -- IT A SERVICE !!!
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB9X on October 13, 2005
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>> All else will NEVER fail. Sure, phones will go down,
>> electricity will go out, but somewhere, someplace,
>> even in a disaster zone, a cellphone is bound to
>> work. (Until the battery dies. :))
This is a statement made by someone who has never been in a disaster area like the one created by Katrina. Cell phone service was very spotty in Hattiesburg even two weeks after the storm, and that's many miles from landfall. On the Mississippi coast, where damage from the storm surge was worst, cell towers just disappeared.
But we seem to be getting the issue of "does ham radiio have anything to contribute to disaster recovery?" and the future of NTS mixed up.
There is no doubt in my mind that ham radio can contribute to communications in a disaster area. I was there; I saw it happen. You folks can talk about redundancy and state-of-the-art technology all you want, but I saw first hand that ham radio OPERATORS were able to contribute.
But they didn't contribute by collecting health-and-welfare traffic and putting it on NTS. Maybe they COULD have, but they didn't, for lots of reasons, some of which can be changed and some of which can not. If there's not going to be any H&W traffic, then my conclusion is that there is no longer a need for NTS. So perhaps it's a good idea to have ARRL negotiate a clause in their agreements with Red Cross and Salvation Army that H&W traffic is a priority.
Unfortunately, that still does not solve the problem with NTS. Like the fire extinguisher that is never rechraged and doesn't work when needed, NTS must function on a day-to-day basis. What attracts new recruits and keeps the old hands interested? Traffic. And please don't say "practise traffic"; that won't work. Is there a source for this traffic? How about "The Minnesota QSO party is coming up" sent to all the folks who participated last year? Maybe more incentive to participants to originate the occasional message -- if each participant originated one message a month, there would be plenty of traffic in the system.
After reading all the comments so far, the bottom line for me is that NTS can still perform a useful function in ham radio if two things happen: (1) Arrangements are made to collect outbound H&W or other traffic in disaster areas and get it into NTS (2) something specific is done to increase the level of meaningful traffic in the system so that there's a reason to participate on a day-to-day basis.
ARRL is the only group that can effectively accomplish these two things. They own the agreements that need changing, and they "own" the management of NTS. I wish I could expect that the movers and shakers in today's NTS would take it upon themselves to change things, but I don't see that happening.
Last comment: NTS is not the only place that disciplined and trained operators come from. I'd like to see ARES put more emphasis on traffic-handling skills, even if it's called "tactical communications". It sure would be nice, the next time I find myself in a disaster area trying to copy down a message, if the person sending it had had some training in how to do it.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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But they didn't contribute by collecting health-and-welfare traffic and putting it on NTS. Maybe they COULD have, but they didn't, for lots of reasons, some of which can be changed and some of which can not. If there's not going to be any H&W traffic, then my conclusion is that there is no longer a need for NTS.
------
..DING.. DING .. DING..!!! EXACTLY!
...The fact that we did not carry out this important H&W objective adequately means that NTS did not adequately carry out it's intended goals.
The NTS was established to provide this as a service to the public and clearly it did not work out that way during Katrina.
So, ask yourself.. Did NTS fail to meet it's intended goals and objectives during Katrina?
That is the REAL question.
So now we need to find the cause and look for a solution.
Glad to see some people are starting to get it.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WB0M on October 13, 2005
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On Oct 13, 2005, at 19:14, K4RAF wrote:
"You are simply dreaming up reasons & purposes that have been eclipsed by other methods, services & non-amateur personnel. People can route their own traffic. We should be helping them do that with systems, not net controls & hand holding. If you can't live your life without a net, perhaps you should stay home & out of the way!"
Now, now, don't get too testy! Hey, 24 hours is even better. But, the point is we can help (well, at least most of us), even if it's only a simple "tell my wife/family/whomever that I'm here and okay". If we can move a message along to let someone know everything is okay (or not okay) then we've at least helped, even if in a small way. And yes, we may not be needed after 24 hours. Then our jobs are done. We are volunteers, so if you don't want to help, so be it. But don't drag down those who are trying to help.
But I'm getting off track: the NTS can still be viable, but it needs to be updated. We have to respond quickly and get messages out quickly. A Cycle 2 format has it's drawbacks for priority messages. Maybe in a disaster there should be an nationwide NTS net to move H/W or "I'm alive" traffic. There may have been, but I couldn’t find it. The present-day NTS can't compete with today's technology, so we have to adapt to be of use. There's are some good points in this thread - from both sides. -- Jeff/wb0m
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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Maybe in a disaster there should be an nationwide NTS net to move H/W or "I'm alive" traffic.
Yup.. sounds like what NTS "should be" all about to me alright.
The national media (CBS, CNN, FOX others) did a better job of "i'm alive" traffic connecting families and victims together.
They did this by putting up websites where families could leave victims names they were concerned about. Victims at shelters able to look at this daily generated list and simply check off their names.
These acknowledgements were then sent back to families who were monitoring the website for these acknowledgements.
Pretty simple idea and the bottom line is that it worked.
Can NTS adopt a similar "H&W" master victim/family master name list in a similar fashion for families and victims?
No need for all the complicated Routine, HGX, 11 "Text to follow" hoopla and we can easily simplify this process by adopting a similar H&W master listing to simply connect people together.
That is after all what people really want isn't it? To just know that everything is ok...
73
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 13, 2005
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<<K4RAF>>
<<Does 'within 24 hours' count?>>
<<http://www.dailywireless.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4456>>
<<You are simply dreaming up reasons & purposes that have been eclipsed by other methods, services & non-amateur personnel. People can route their own traffic. We should be helping them do that with systems, not net controls & hand holding. If you can't live your life without a net, perhaps you should stay home & out of the way!>>
You haven't answered my questions yet.
I asked this before, you might try answering them instead of simply critizing.
Ok, so every ham puts up a 2.4 Ghz station for data transmission and they are all linked together so we can send traffic from one end to other and everywhere in between. Just exactly what messages are we going to send over this NEW-NTS data system? Where do they originate from? What format do they use? Where do they terminate? What addressing is used?
You appear to saying, 'why can't hams be a common carrier and put up radio internet links'. We can, but that doesn't remove the FCC rules and regulations about what can be carried over these links. What method do you propose that makes sure only legal traffic is carried over these links?
Lastly, I read the article you referenced. My only comment is that these networks are great. However, I asked myself, do they also eliminate the need for voice radio traffic? The article certainly didn't indicate that. Please don't be internet-centric. The internet and computers aren't the only means of communications, nor are they the best in many circumstances.
Jim
WA0LYK
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 13, 2005
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<<KG2V>>
<<Want to make a served agency REALLY like you today? Show up with a few 802.11 WiFi routers, a bunch a HIGH gain antennas, stop on the edge of the area that still has intenet, and setup one end of the link, and start stringing 802.11 repeaters until you get 802.11 to where the served agency is. Is it ham radio? Nope. Is that REAL EmComm? Folks, that sure is where it's going. I know that the Port Authority of NY has setup a bunch of containers that are self contained WiFi access points, and a Sat internet connection. Take that, and a couple of laptops, and you've done BETTER for the people who need comms than all our ham gear >>
Not to rain on your parade but,
1) HIGH gain antennas means very stable physical structures. Are you going to carry stable towers to mount them on in order to get above localized restrictions?
2) HIGH gain antennas means your only going to get to one physical destination, not multiple shelters. Now you need several routes established.
3) Once you start into the disaster area, no power. Are you going to use a battery, solar panel, and inverter to power your WIFI repeater at each tower site? Are you going to provide generators. Maybe looooonnnnggg extension cords?
4) Are you going to provide security and have spare setups for the equipment (towers, generators, solar panels/batteries, etc.) that sprouts legs and walks off during the middle of the night?
5) Last but not least, where are you going to get an internet connection at the edge of the disaster area? An EOC that doesn't know you from Adam? Knock on doors till you find someone who will let you use their DSL or cable connection? Perhaps set up your own DirectTV connection on a public right of way?
6) Do you think security concious EOC folks are going to accept your internet connection to their computers?
I am not trying to be a smart aleck here. However, I can recognize a bunch of problems with some of the internet/WIFI stuff that people propose. These are legitimate problems and need to be addressed to make these proposals real life scenarios.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N4LI on October 13, 2005
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OK, not to beat a dead horse, but...
The reason we no longer have "routine" "Happy Birthday Aunt Betty" stuff? Other means are easier, and often free. Send her an e-mail. Call her on the phone -- I pay flat fee to long distance, so the cost isn't an issue. Why bother calling the ham down the street?
Why no disaster traffic? Much the same reason. The cell companies, and other providers are frankly doing a good job of providing service.
Last year, after Hurricane Ivan, I called my brother's cell in Pensacola right after the storm passed -- "Ring, hello..."
July this year? Hurricane Dennis hits Pensacola. He stays. I get a call... "Hey, we're in the eyewall, cool, huh?"
My family in Biloxi... their house is trashed. A couple of days after the storm, they returned. They called me on the cell; no problem.
This doesn't mean that ham radio is unneeded. It's just that the need has changed.
Or, I could be wrong.
Peter, N4LI
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6RF on October 13, 2005
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Let's face it...
Katrina WAS the disaster that NTS was designed for.
And for a variety of reasons NTS was not effective. Wrong technology, lack of interface with served agencies, traffic better carried by other media...
It DIDN'T WORK!!!
If you think "It would have worked if 'THEY' had given us a chance" see my second point "lack of interface with served agencies."
If you're not actively participating with the agencies a YEAR before the disaster then you're too late and won't be effective.
Time to let go of NTS as it is now and, IF the ham community still WANTS the mission AND can muster resources to accomplish it, design something that WILL work from the top down.
And yes, I "do" NTS on a regular basis.
My two cents,
AE6RF
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB1GMX on October 13, 2005
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RE: kg2V:
>>Folks - Laptops run a LONG time on internal power, and even longer when you hook them to an external 12v battery. Modern 100w radios don't draw that much current either - An Icom 706 drawa a MAX of 20 amps, and if you are running SSB, it's going to be a lot less than that. I really don't worry about running on a 7Ah Gell cell. If you are out providing emergency Comms on HF, I really really doubt you WALKED to the site. A 90Ah (aka Car Battery sized) is a reasonable battery - and I know for a fact that you can run a 706 and a laptop for > 24 hrs on one - On field day, every person at our 3A station runs their laptop and rig (706, MkV Field, Kenwood) on one for each location, and we have NO problems<<
Put that in your backpack and shadow someone. I'm serious. What your describes is a very direct approach for a "sited" station such as a shelter or other EMCOMM
relief function. However it's not in the mud, it's doesn roam easily. It's at the point where phone and
likely networked computers have reached their comminications end limits at that time.
Field day for the last 5 years I've tried to create
a VHF station that is portable, decent antennas, fast
setup and can run on autonomus power (no car or maybe
even generator) for at least 24 hours. Like many that
have persued this success is dependent on situation
and goals. However I think it's there, right down to
shelter and basic safety and support for the operator.
But thats only one type of situation. A reconfigurable
solution is paramount. While having a practiced solution is a resource the ability to build an organized solution on the fly is valuable.
Any communications in the field (any) is organized. It's diciplined. It is also coordinated so that each element meshes with the next one. Any approach that is not layerd and does not take into account the need for
flexibility is likely crippled. Part of that flexibility is more than ham radio is the one solution.
Unifying the use of tactical comms like FRS, those 10$ radios you can afford to loose or drop in the haz and
leave there. Even CB is useful in a communications crunch, yes it has its problems but 40 channelized frequenies and an 8ft antenna with no content restrictions (its a connercial serivce!) and wide distribution can be useful and should not be discarded.
Each is a radio, useful in itself with it's known limitations.
Time to remember that anyone using a FRS radio for
the first time is an amateur. They may be the pro at
some emergency related service. They could be even paid to be there but radio may be new to them. Hams
can be of service by teaching how to do tactical
coms over FRS (or other adhoc radio comms) as doing
it ourselves with a 2m HT.
Further we all have skills outside running a ICOM-xxzz
and in the emergency aid disasters of the past the most
interesting stories were "I brought radios and found I could be of more use getting working.. Phones,
computers, power distribution, pipes for bulk water
or sanitation." I'd like to think that in a real
emergency my role would be more than just futzing
with an HT or SSB rig when I can cut, nail, splice
or lend a helping hand cooking too. To do that
effectively there needs to be a coordinated structure
that can get me the resource to that need.
Allison
Kb1GMX
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KG4YJR on October 13, 2005
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>>and everytime there is a car wreck or fire or anything and I hear it on my scanner and rush to the seen -- i see plenty of fear in the first responder's eyes as i get out of my 1967 Station Wagon with its orange whoppy light on top and 13 antennas on the roof...<<
Now darnit' that's funny, I don't care who you are.
"Larry The Cable Guy"
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KG2V on October 13, 2005
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"1) HIGH gain antennas means very stable physical structures. Are you going to carry stable towers to mount them on in order to get above localized restrictions?"
Had how BIG do you really thing a BIG antenna for 802.11 is? How about a foot long - and you mount them when needed - and worst comes to worst, you move to Winlink
"2) HIGH gain antennas means your only going to get to one physical destination, not multiple shelters. Now you need several routes established."
Look into "slotted waveguide" antennas - 24+ db of gain, omnidirectional, about 4 ft long
Also multiple routes are not a huge problem when the routers cost a whopping $10
"3) Once you start into the disaster area, no power. Are you going to use a battery, solar panel, and inverter to power your WIFI repeater at each tower site? "
Batteries - you ever look at the power draw on a WiFi router? It's MILLIAMPS for goodness sakes
"4) Are you going to provide security and have spare setups for the equipment "
Sure - remember - we are talking CHEAP gear (assuming WiFi - remember - we are also planning on Winlink both VHF and HF at longer ranges). I really expect the TOTAL lifespan of the operation to be < 5 days, because after that, true commercial links will be back to places like shelter locations. This is stuff you setup, use for a couple of days, and worst comes to worst - leave!! When the whole repeater location costs you $30 - it's NOT a huge deal
"5) Last but not least, where are you going to get an internet connection at the edge of the disaster area? An EOC that doesn't know you from Adam? "
Buy One? Beg Brorrow? Call Starbucks, ask for a corporate donation of WiFi time from one of their stores? A ham just outside the area? Have a good relation with Comcast/Time Warner/whoever in your area? We know what we will do around HERE - maybe if folks started asking in their area - when folks came in to help, that question will be answered
"6) Do you think security concious EOC folks are going to accept your internet connection to their computers?"
Fine, so they link to OUR wiFi lan that we have setup, or come use one of OUR PCs if they want
As I said - this is NOT a replacement for VHF/UHF voice, or even things like winlink for traffic, or even voice HF - But it's another TOOL to use
Heck, you set your HF winlink station up, and make sure you have a WiFi card in it at the shelter/EOC - the managers who need to send mail hook to you at THEIR descression - your not on THEIR LAN, they are on YOURS
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA6BFH on October 13, 2005
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Scott, take a look at a picture of the back of the radio, then look at the front panel.
It is the best VHF, UHF, SHF radio on the market (not withstanding I wish it had “Doppler tuning”)!
It is a VHF through SHF radio with two -- count’em -- two 50 Mhz IF’s!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KG2V on October 13, 2005
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RE KB1GMX
"Put that in your backpack and shadow someone." - your point is taken - which is exactly why I said we concentrate on 3 things - one of which was "Tactical Communications" - by definition, when you are doing shadow type operations, it's tactical - I was opposing this to the "QRP radio/CW crowd" messages I saw above - NTS type stuff - aka sited stuff
"While having a practiced solution is a resource the ability to build an organized solution on the fly is valuable."
That's the key - there we agree totally. The thing is, it seems a LOT of hams are hung up on a traditional ham solution to a problem, when sometimes the best solution might be WiFi, or even a telephone (I've seen traffic passed when there was a perfectly good telephone link between the 2 points, and NOT just for practice)
"Any communications in the field (any) is organized. It's diciplined. It is also coordinated so that each element meshes with the next one. Any approach that is not layerd and does not take into account the need for
flexibility is likely crippled. Part of that flexibility is more than ham radio is the one solution.
Unifying the use of tactical comms like FRS, those 10$ radios you can afford to loose or drop in the haz and
leave there. Even CB is useful in a communications crunch, yes it has its problems but 40 channelized frequenies and an 8ft antenna with no content restrictions (its a connercial serivce!) and wide distribution can be useful and should not be discarded.
Each is a radio, useful in itself with it's known limitations."
I could NOT agree more - which is why I brought up "Non traditional" "Non Ham" modes in my post. There is already a bunch of FRS radios in our kits - there is a CB. There are business band radios, There is GMRS. Heck, there is a pair of field telephones and a spool of wire, and a couple of Telco butt sets
However - the topic is NOT about total EmComm (a MUCH MUCH broader topic ) - it was about passing "traffic" via NTS - generally a fixed site, mid to long distance type of communication
All in all - I think we ARGEE - I was just talking one scenario - which is why I was saying - many time you will help your served agency better by being able to plug in and configure a WiFi router (or crimp a connector onto the end of a Cat5e - or know how to set someones IP address etc)
Charlie
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by NA4IT on October 13, 2005
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Let me clarify a statement I made in an earlier post. I had stated:
"THERE WERE NO HOME BASED AMATEUR RADIO OPERATORS IN THE HURRICANE AFFECTED AREA WITH WHICH TO PASS TRAFFIC!"
and right under it:
"People evacuated (WISELY), antennas were obliterated, power was out, homes were flooded. The system was not broke, the operators on the "business" end were!"
AA4PB eluded that I was presenting this as one of the "failures" of amateur radio. That is simply not true. This was not a "failure" but a catastrophy that affected amateur radio operators themselves.
For the NTS system to work, there has to be an amateur at each end to take and pass traffic to the general public it is addressed from and to. If the amateur's station is off the air, he cannot recieve or send the traffic, and if his telephone is out, he cannot get the message to it's destination. (Now if it was really important, I would consider driving to the destination, knock on the door, and tell them. But that is a little unreasonable to expect that for 100's of messages.)
Amateur radio was by no means a failure. There were some lessons to be learned. Here is an example:
Operators who signed up to respond were told they need to be self-sufficient. To me, that means to be able to sustain yourself, and setup and sustain your amateur radio station yourself. I heard of a story where a ham had 10 volunteers workers from a shelter outside helping him set up a mast. That's 10 folks that probably had other duties they needed to be doing. That's a lesson to be learned...make sure you can set up what you take yourself.
Another lesson to be learned...a good cross band capable mobile rig paired with a good HT is just as good and gets on the air faster than setting up a full station in a shelter.
Sure, amateur radio works mainly because of it's simplicity, and because of the ability of hams to adapt. And if we don't learn to keep it simple, it will cease to function.
One more comment: I think there is great confusion about WinLink. WinLink is a service, not a mode. Pactor is a mode. Pactor messages, through the AirMail software used for WinLink, can be sent radio to radio, without the need for a WinLink server. The WinLink server can be utilized IF a message can in fact be sent to a working email address. HOWEVER, I firmly believe that an amateur radio operator needs to be sending return email from an internet email address to a radio email address, and not average Joe Blow EMA Manager. The amateur radio operators are the ones responsible for keeping the email function legal, not the EMA guy, and not the WinLink server operator.
And that's all I got to say about that...
One other thought, as much as we hams like to argue, there is one thing we need to unite in, and that is to pray for and lend support to those who have been affected the most by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, as well as other catastrophies around our world.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K3WVU on October 13, 2005
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It seems like every time I visit this site, there's a bunch of folks running around screaming "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" about some aspect of amateur radio. Good thing I only visit about once a week these days, or it would start to get to me.
Oh yes, I see that K4FAU/GHOSTRIDERHF/IMBACKHF/ARRLFAN has a new "handle", but he spouts the same old gibberish! Maybe he should just get a ticket and then he wouldn't have to keep switching identities. LOL!!!
Time to move along...nothing to see here.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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Bring and setup all the latest high tech gear (WIFI, CB, FRS, Winlink, NASA Space Rockets, Laser Beams whatever!) you wan't to any disaster of your choosing...
...BUT
If no one understands the overall objectives, identifies what your specific role is supposed to be, then all of this is really just going to be a moot point anyway isn't it?
The main objective of NTS is for providing H&W traffic for the benefit of the general public. Period.
We all observed that we seem to have our primary role backwards during this event.
Our primary role in this mission was NEVER achieved.
End of story.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA1RNE on October 13, 2005
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From WA0LYK:
".... My only comment is that these networks are great. However, I asked myself, do they also eliminate the need for voice radio traffic? The article certainly didn't indicate that. Please don't be internet-centric. The internet and computers aren't the only means of communications, nor are they the best in many circumstances."
I believe Jim has summed up one aspect of this discussion very well.
Digital communications have obvious advantages in some applications, but not to the extent that the "new-wave" "Amateur Radio Internet" community is making of it.
But you don't take my word for it.....
A very convincing article was published in the December 1992 issue of QST that described what worked and what did not - including the pro's and cons of voice communications versus data via PACKET, as well as what was available for antennas, repeaters, etc. It was written by an amateur who was a member of a Florida RACES group that provided communications during the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew.
shortly after the hurricane, I presented about 25 copies of this article ot the then members of the Massachusetts Emergency Management communications group. The response from some members who were also repeater trustees was predictable: "What do you mean I need a back-up power source?" "My antenna system survived the Blizzard of '78; it will survive anything.", etc., etc.
For reference, check out this information about the hurricane that appears on the Miami-Dade Office of Emergency Management web page:
http://sffma.net/eoc_miami-da.htm
Sure, this was almost 13 years ago, but the bottom line really hasn't changed: forget the HF back packs, and forget about Winlink and forget about access to the Internet during an emergency.
Sure, getting H&W messages out via email is important, but if amateur radio wants to be of *REAL* service to state and local agencies, we need to LISTEN to what they their requirements are, not dictate them, which will vary depending upon the resources they already have in place.
Coming onto the scene with your IC-706 and a laptop, then asking for a place to roost to set up a means of alternative email traffic is going to result in a "don't call us, we'll call you" type of greeting.
What will be needed is folks who have both the means AND the will to be flexible in providing a number of needed services - some of which may include setting up HF/VHF/UHF voice communications, which is still the defacto standard for immediate emergency response.
WA1RNE
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8NMW on October 13, 2005
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I used to be a net controller for a local 2 meter traffic net. At first I found it to be interesting but soon was bored with the same old routine. I understand that normally there is not alot of exciting traffic or true emergencies. With that said it seemed to be like everything else with this hobby - same people checking in having the same things to say. This net I did was a "training" net and as such, traffic was usually passed slow. The problem to me seemed that when a message was passed at normal reading speed the person receiving it usually needed it repeated and had many questions. Ok fine, its a training net but let's be frank here - In a true emergency I wouldnt want these people taking my traffic, they wouldn't be able to keep up and more than likely would screw up the message and get it all wrong. In a real emergency the traffic is supposed to be passed fast and you better have your ears open to get it all. Not to mention if its on HF, having qrm, static, bleedover and whatever else is on the band. Again I find it hard to criticize those that try but in practice if they screw it up, imagine a real emergency.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by THERAGE on October 13, 2005
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<Oh yes, I see that K4FAU/GHOSTRIDERHF/IMBACKHF/ARRLFAN has a new "handle", but he spouts the same old gibberish!>
I think that ARRLFAN is KB5LBL. Look him up. I think he fits the bill. It will also help him out on his "look ups" on QRZ. :)
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 13, 2005
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Folks,
With all that has been said on this subject there appears to still be some misunderstanding about the NTS and how it works.
Analog NTS
1. *Normal* operation is cyclic - for example, daytime (e.g. Cycle 2)local nets collect outgoing traffic leaving the area and take it to a Section net meeting just a little later. Those Section nets then redistribute messages staying in the Section and collect those leaving the Section to take to the Region net which meets at a little later time. The Region net then redistributes those messages staying in the Region and has a TCC representative collect the iner-Region traffic to pass it over their coordinated schedules.
This inter-Region traffic is then passed into the terminating Region at the second Region net and is distributed to the terminating Section representatives to the Region net. The Section representatives then distribute the traffic to the local nets for final delivery.
For Cycle 2 daytime nets, the traffic can be passed into Cycle 4 evening nets for delivery. For the Cycle 4 nets, delivery into the local nets many times has to wait until the next evening because too few local hams check into the late Section nets.
This *builds-in" a transit delay to the system - by design. It is not a PROBLEM with the NTS - it is just the way it works.
2. During *emergencies* the Section and Regional nets can be called into operation on a non-cyclical basis. The nets can stay open as long as needed to pass the traffic. It's amazing how many volunteers can be found if and when an emergency is called.
Digital NTS
1. Operation of the Digital NTS is basically 24/7 for the interconnecting links. The time to pass traffic is really only limited by propagation - it may take a few hours to get a HF path available between New Jersey and Colorado or from New Jersey to Alabama to Colorado. The stations on this net use HF pactor to relay messages between stations.
The biggest problem the Digital NTS has is finding stations in the Sections willing to check into the Regional Hub to pull traffic down and deliver it to local nets.
Some comments:
1. The NTS was never meant to be and is not today a "tactical" system capable of passing real time messages between front line operation positions. Saying that the NTS doesn't work for this is like saying you can't drive a microwave to work so the microwave has a problem.
2. The NTS does NOT require messages to have email and telephone address in order to enter messages into the system.
All of the other fancy systems mentioned requires that an email address or telephone number be attached.
This is an ADVANTAGE of the NTS system - not a disadvantage. There ARE people out their on the terminating end willing to look up telephone numbers to call or to deliver messages physically.
There could be MORE of these people, especially during emergencies, if this were not criticized as a "waste" of time and effort - which many on here seem to do.
3. The NTS has never been and is not today the primary originator of traffic. It is a system for carrying the traffic that is originated from an external source.
That external source may consist of an NTS net representative going to a Nursing Home to collect messages from the residents for delivery to loved ones or it may be a representative from a city shelter who knows a ham that can pass messages for disaster victims or for a homeless person.
That traffic then gets entered into the NTS system for transit routing and delivery.
4. For the past 25 years, the ARRL and the amateur community has been focusing on emergency communications as being tactical or logistical assistance to served agencies. Take a look at the emergency training courses - lots of stuff about incident command structure and go-kits and tactical net procedures, etc. There is very, VERY little training on how to assist the actual emergency victims via ham radio - i.e. the traditional Health and Welfare process.
5. As served agencies make progess in building and maintaining emergency backup systems and in fostering better interoperatibility among responding agencies, the role of Amateur Radio will get pushed further and further down the priority list. That isn't to say there won't still be a role for Amateur Radio to play, it is a lot more likely there will be an amateur radio operator at the site of an emergency when it happens than a FEMA operational person. Amateur radio will still play a role in this manner.
Even with this, however, there will ALWAYS be a Health and Welfare role for amateur radio.
I'll repeat this again, in a disaster people don't usually have their personal phone lists and/or email address books with them.
I see so many on here arguing about using all kinds of digital networks to pass messages but THEY ARE WORTHLESS TO THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW PHONE NUMBERS OR EMAIL ADDRESSES!!!
************
I guess I just can't emphasize enough here that it is not the NTS system that needs review here, it is the role of Amateur Radio that needs to be reviewed.
Question 1: Have we become so tactical/logistical communcation oriented that we have forgotten the "victim" side of the equation and what we can do to provide value to the public in this area?
Question 2: Can the ARRL play a role in refocusing the Amateur Radio community on our role in serving the *public* and not just the "served agencies" or does this need to be done by another organization within the Amateur Radio community? Can the NTS fulfill this role? Or does a brand *new* organization need to be built from the bottom up?
Question 3: Does a new set of Memorandum of Understanding need to be worked out with the Red Cross concerning Health and Welfare traffic handling? The current Memo puts the ARRL under the authority of the Red Cross as to when and how H&W traffic, both originating and terminating, can be sent and received. If you read the Memo closely, this doesn't even apply just to Red Cross shelters but to the disaster area as a whole.
Was this a valid thing to do? Should the Red Cross be able to tell amateur radio operators where and when, or even IF, we can provide a service of value to the public? I can understand the Red Cross wanting control in their own shelters but for the disaster area as a whole?
Question 4. Does a new Memo of Understanding need to be worked out with the Salvation Army. The current ARRL/SS Memo doesn't even mention Health and Welfare traffic? Does this need to be a focus area in the Memo?
Question 5: I ask again -- do we, as the Amateur Radio community, need a new organization developed with its focus being *public service" rather than "service to public agencies"? How may people feel the ARRL can be redirected from the path they are on now?
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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K4FAU/GHOSTRIDERHF/IMBACKHF/ARRLFAN/THERAGE/DIPOLEYAGI
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by DIPOLEYAGI on October 13, 2005
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K4FAU/GHOSTRIDERHF/IMBACKHF/ARRLFAN/THERAGE/DIPOLEYAGI/KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0IU on October 13, 2005
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I read the comments here that say the ARRL must come to the rescue of the NTS. Reality check time: it ain’t gonna happen!
In the November 2005 issue of QST, the closing sentence of the “It Seems to US…” column says, “Come what may, we at the ARRL Headquarters will do everything possible to support volunteer Amateur Radio operators and served agencies that depend on Amateur Radio, especially…when all else fails.” They nearly break their arms patting themselves on the back talking about all the great things they did during this crisis. They did mention working various nets from W1AW, but the words “National Traffic System” never appear in this piece.
In the same issue, there is a 6-page article called “The Katrina Chronicles 1” with 6 stories about how ham radio was of great value in terms of providing communications. The emphasis was on providing communications to replace crippled or disabled communications along with a sprinkling of h&w traffic. Several mentioned using one net or another, but none of them mentioned using the NTS specifically. One article talked about a couple that helped out at Charity Hospital and how they would resume their NTS activity once they relocated, but the article was about how they passed traffic through the EOC in Baton Rouge, not about how they used the NTS.
The article immediately after this one is the text of Jim Haynie’s testimony on ham’s Katrina response before the House Government Reform Committee. Not once does he mention the NTS, but he did make the following statement, “Emergency communications are conducted not only by voice, but also by high-speed data transmissions using state-of-the-art digital communications software known as WinLink.” This should remove any doubt as to where the ARRL believes ham radio is headed.
No one is disputing the value of ham radio, especially in a crisis, but don’t count on anyone in Newington bailing out the NTS.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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Tim, I understand what you are saying. No people dont carry email address books with them. But that is not it though.
The point is that messages are all currently going via the pony express route instead of being streamlined using the internet or using faster methods to reach thier destination.
Now before you start saying "Well disaster areas don't have internet access" consider that areas outside the disaster zone do!
This is the point where we can speed message delivery up.
How many people does it take to handle a single H&W message anyways? Can't it just go directly to it's intended area of destination first hand? Why all the cumbersome channeling?
The idea of using email addresses are for the idea of reaching "destination" areas across the country in a more efficient manner, not for individuals who are family members.
The message could then reach an area almost instantly as soon as it is entered into the "NTS" system.
The idea is for stations on the front lines in disaster zones to reach stations located outside the disaster zone who have with internet access.
Now instead of using lengthy voice transmissions for each individual message they could be send via digital mode. A little faster way to handle wouldn't you say? This would also increase the message handling capacity to a great extent.
I bet I could send 40 text messages via digital radio mode in under a minute. How long does 40 voice radiogram messages take to write down and complete in comparison?
There would be 6 or 7 primary triage like stations located outside the disaster zone in direct communication with the front line shelter stations. Let's for the sake of argument call these stations in communication with the shelters "ALPHA" stations.
These ALPHA stations would have full power and internet access capabilities. The Alpha stations would be responsible for "triaging" the messages to the appropriate "SECTORS" in the US or Abroad.
They would simply relay the messages (as file attachments) via the high speed internet to stations located in thier respective geographical sectors (who are also equipped with email capability)
Each ALPHA station is responsible for sorting and relaying these messages according to a predefined sector plan. ie Sector 1, 5 ,7 etc. could be handled by ALPHA Station A - ALPHA Station B would be responsible for handling messages intended for Sectors 2, 4, 6, etc.
Each of these individual sectors would then have "BETA" stations (STATE LEVEL) who would in turn do the same thing. Messages are then triaged via email to "CHARLIE" stations which are at the local or city level.
Now understand this system utilizes a digital email relay system and we are talking about using the internet to help pass this traffic in a matter of a few seconds to the appropriate areas.
Radio is used at the disaster area to the APLHA station and then again at the DELTA level to respondants who give messages directly to the family members.
"DELTA" stations are the many local volunteers that would pass messages directly to the intended reciever at the local level. This can be via telephone message from a fixed location to the family member directly or by hand delivery via mobile or even by email if that is an available option on the NTS message header at the time.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 13, 2005
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kc8vwm:"The point is that messages are all currently going via the pony express route instead of being streamlined using the internet or using faster methods to reach thier destination. "
Woah! Wait a minute. Think about the system you have described.
I put a message into the internet NTS system in Orlando at 2pm Eastern destined for a Leavenworth, Kansas recipient. At 2:02pm, it hits the Florida hub who routes it to a Eastern hub at 2:03pm who routes it to a Central Region hub at 2:05pm, who delivers it to a Kansas Section hub at 2:07pm.
What happens then?
(hint: what happens at 5pm?)
(2nd hint: The NTS cycles are set up as they are for a reason)
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4JF on October 13, 2005
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"We must face it ! Hams are on the way out. New communication equipment is now here. The way of the old fathers mumbling.....we must do it like our forefathers did is long gone. Its gone like the Dodo bird,the dinousarus etc. No longer needed is the ( God forbid ) Morse Code.
Like handwritten Emergency messages that are so slow that the one in need is buried, forgotten before the ink is dry on the paper.
Yes we must face it.... WE ARE OBSOLETE !!! "
I've been hearing that BRAVO SIERRA since the 60s (when CB started taking hold). It was wrong then and it is just as wrong now. When will y'all give it up and admit you're wrong?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 13, 2005
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In addition to faster routing, digital systems (Internet, Pactor, Packet) use CRC checks and ARQ. That means 99.99% error free printed text. The odds of getting a transmission error are far, far less on digital systems then voice transmissions which depend on human operators. Some errors can be tolerated and some can't. Make an error in the address or telephone number and the message may be undeliverable and have to be serviced back to the originator for correction.
In many instances voice links are necessary. Common sense however tells you that you should get it into digital format as soon as possible. Why on earth would anyone want to have a message relayed on multiple hops across the country by voice when after the first hop it could be put on the Internet and make the rest of the trip in seconds, error free?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4JF on October 13, 2005
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"Get it on the internet."
"Gotta use the internet."
"It ain't no good unless it's on the internet."
You guys are using the internet now, but can't you realize that the bleepin' internet is NOT the be-all and end-all of all the world's communications? Repeat after me: "There is more to life (and emergencies) than the internet."
I have yet to hear someone scream in an emergency "Oh, I gotta have some internet!!"
Sheesh! You should listen to yourselves.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 13, 2005
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I need to travel from VA to CA. My car is broken down but I do have a horse and buggy available. The airport is 5 miles away. Would it be faster to ride my horse and buggy to the airport and get on a jet to make the remainder of the trip or would it be faster to just take the horse and buggy all the way to CA? Such a difficult decision.
I guess some would reason that I should use the horse and buggy for the whole trip because the jet might crash :-)
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by ICOMTECH66 on October 13, 2005
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K4JF --
"You guys are using the internet now, but can't you realize that the bleepin' internet is NOT the be-all and end-all of all the world's communications? Repeat after me: "There is more to life (and emergencies) than the internet." "I have yet to hear someone scream in an emergency "Oh, I gotta have some internet!!"
Yeah but how often do you hear a police officer or Fireman or Red Cross Rescue worker say -- "Wow Thank God the ham radio guy with the orange commo vest and 4 radios hanging off his hips is finally here - Now we can afford to send Superman and the Marines home since we all know that WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS HAM RADIO GETS THROUGH!!!...
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 13, 2005
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I would predict that if the NTS does not adapt and make better use of its digital side then it will die.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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Tim. I always enjoyed your insight and despite what system we finally decide on, let's hope we can find better and more workable solutions to make NTS work as it should work in today's world.
Simply put, if we dont come up with a better and faster solution that is instantly deployable, super fast from beginning to end, flexible and works on the fly then we might as well pack up our bags and forget about NTS.
The problem with these daily net cycles is that we need to eliminate them. Bring them down. We need to replace them with an open and ongoing streaming communication infrastructure. We are using a pony express mailbag system that occurs only at certain intervals during the day.
What we need to do is to offer the community something that no other agency has the expertise to offer.
We have to find a way to market and sell ourselves and become a valuable asset that is irreplaceable. If we cannot find a way to do this and if we cannot meet that requirement on the front lines, then we are simply not in buisness to provide any real time emergency communication during an event.
Sending a radiogram is all well intended, but if we dont latch on to the idea of using more streamlined methods of communication infrastructure to do this, then we are dead in the water before we even have the chance to change our HT's batteries.
Things happen very fast in today's real world. Information can change before it reaches it destination.
Is NTS prepared to meet the challenge or not?
Thanks for listening.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by ICOMTECH66 on October 13, 2005
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Psst ... AA4PB ... I think the digital side of NTS is actually called the INTERNET.. LOL
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KX8N on October 13, 2005
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"Maybe if the net provided training messages to pass on, I'd get involved. But if participating in a net consists of me keying up the mic up and saying "N0XMZ - no traffic", what good would that do? "
Net users are operators just like you and I. If you feel you need to practice handling traffic, sit down, make up some traffic, and send it to someone. The next time the net is active, send your traffic. Don't sit and wait for someone to decide for you that it's time to practice.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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Psst ... ICOMTECH66 If hams have to incorporate technology and utilize the internet as part of the message delivery process to streamline messages faster and better from a disaster area to the ham at the other end of the link then I say we DO IT!
It's the overall objective that matters. It doesn't need to be sent only using radio.
We are hams. This means we are communication experts and we will utilize every means of communication at our disposal to get our message through.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 13, 2005
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Psst... ICOMTECH66, you can learn about NTSD at http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/nts-mpg/pdf/MPG604A.pdf
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 13, 2005
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<<KC8VWM>>
<<The point is that messages are all currently going via the pony express route instead of being streamlined using the internet or using faster methods to reach thier destination.>>
A question - just who would be the destination? A ham at random? How would you know who to send it to? Who is on vacation or working late or who's computer is down? Why even use hams to deliver the message at all. Your system doesn't need ham radio for anything.
Are you advocating we just become a social organization dedicated to the delivery of H&W messages? Nothing wrong with that, but don't count on a lot of hams joining the organization.
<<The message could then reach an area almost instantly as soon as it is entered into the "NTS" system.>>
Sure, you could have an email from one end to the other is seconds. But, I won't read my email until the evening. That means that email will be sitting there for several hours probably.
<<I bet I could send 40 text messages via digital radio mode in under a minute. How long does 40 voice radiogram messages take to write down and complete in comparison?>>
Damn, you type fast if you can enter forty messages into an email system and send them in a minute <grin>.
I've mentioned this on other threads before. During a test using packet, the EOC received a message that shelter needed 30 pots. The manager had a message sent back asking what kind of 'pots'. The return reply then said 300 cots. The manager blew his stack and went to the location to see who was sending the messages. The ham he found wanted to argue with him that he could type 90 wpm error free so it had to be the radio system introducing the errors. You can guess what happened then!
Moral of the story, for those that critize and downgrade voice and cw net accuracy, email has its problems too.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 13, 2005
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kc8vwm:"The problem with these daily net cycles is that we need to eliminate them. Bring them down. We need to replace them with an open and ongoing streaming communication infrastructure. We are using a pony express mailbag system that occurs only at certain intervals during the day.
What we need to do is to offer the community something that no other agency has the expertise to offer. "
Charles, I appreciate your insights also.
The point I was trying to get across is that H&W traffic doesn't *usually* require delivery times measured in minutes.
In fact, you will probably NOT get delivery times measured in minutes for traffic with no email address or telephone number because either no one will be on the end link to deliver the message or no one will be available to receive it.
The Cycle nets work very well with the typical American lifestyle for messages that either don't require immediate delivery or can't be delivered immediately.
People who are available during the day (e.g. retired persons, 2nd shift people, etc) can pick traffic up during the day and route it on. People who are available in the evening hours after the work day ends can pick traffic up in the NTS system and forward it on in the evening or deliver it if it has reached the closest destination.
The other major problem with your internet link setup is who will manage the network? Who will provide the Central Region NTS message hub? What happens when that person dies or leaves ham radio? Who will provide the next hub? What happens to the traffic that backs up in the system till that person can get on line? How do you route around systems that are off-line because their internet provider is down or their power is out or whatever? What happens when your Section hub goes on vacation or has to attend a wedding out-of-state?
I should note that the system you describe already exists for the most part. The Digital NTS system uses radio for the links instead of the internet but the operation is pretty much the same. It is an amorphous system in that the routing heirarchy is only loosly defined with "back" channels encouraged where traffic loads or propagation makes it beneficial. But it *does* suffer from the problems I list above. When a hub station is down (like when a lightning strike happened this spring) it requires a lot of manual reconfiguring of the system routing tables and manual forwarding of messages.
The existing NTS works pretty well using whoever is available at the time. Traffic routing is totally flexible with built in redundancy. If I am available for checking into the Region net to get Kansas traffic - that works. If next hour or the next day, NB0Z is available then that works too.
When you start using internet routing you pretty much "fix" your delivery network. Not only do you "cut out" the people who would assist on a part-time basis you significantly curtail the robustness of the system.
A system using internet routing of messages would put the NTS in the boat of pretty much having to hire full time network administrators that could manage the network so that holes are bypassed, backups are cleared, and system anomalies are rectified.
I am not convinced that a professionally managed system is where I want to see the NTS go. I enjoy being able to assist at the Section and Region level on Tuesday and Thursday evenings and even change the evenings every six months or so as my childrens extracurricular activites change nights. Or hit the Cycle 2 daytime nets if I have a day off and am at home at the right time. If I have to call into a system network adminstrator 24 hours before I can particpate so I could be built into the routing tables it would take a lot of the fun out of it for sure. Especially for traffic that doesn't require delivery times measured in minutes.
So I guess the bottom line is that I am still imploring people to not just assume that faster transit times are necessarily better. It depends on what you are carrying. Let's be sure and understand the difference between tactical/logistical real time traffic and typical H&W traffic (e.g. "Hey Uncle Joe! I survived!").
The only other final point I would make is that if you supplant all the manual operation with automatic links then how do you ensure the manual links will be avaiable and trained when they are needed? What happens when the Northeast has a major flood and several of your Sector hubs are unmanned or are down and you need to get traffic originated or delivered but no one checks into the Voice or CW Section/Region nets anymore because they have been abandoned?
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 13, 2005
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******************
kc8vwm: "What we need to do is to offer the community something that no other agency has the expertise to offer.
We have to find a way to market and sell ourselves and become a valuable asset that is irreplaceable. If we cannot find a way to do this and if we cannot meet that requirement on the front lines, then we are simply not in buisness to provide any real time emergency communication during an event.
Sending a radiogram is all well intended, but if we dont latch on to the idea of using more streamlined methods of communication infrastructure to do this, then we are dead in the water before we even have the chance to change our HT's batteries. "
********************
I agree with your stance that we need to offer something no other agency can. I'm not sure it needs to be on the basis of "expertise". And I still think we are missing a bet by ONLY focusing on "real time emergency communication".
I am still adamant that it could be as simple as offering to attempt to deliver messages with no email address or telephone number. No other agency that I know of will even accept such messages let alone attempt to complete them. Yet it *USED* to be the ARS stock in trade. It is still an irreplaceable service. The problem is marketing it in a world that has become used to communicating without expending any effort.
Again, "real time emergency communication" is associated with serving an agency, not with serving the public at large. I question whether we can ever become an irreplaceable asset to any agency, be they GO or NGO.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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Sure Jim, thanks for your question and I agree email isn't perfect either. However, neither is the current NTS as we know it and I will answer some questions to explain why.
How would we know who to send it too?
Well that's where a nationwide master volunteers list comes in. You put your name, location and email address on a website, let's say the ARRL site for example. "Alpha" stations would then "triage" all traffic (in attached error free digital format) for that specific geographical area directly to that email address for local delivery - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
You asked:
"But, I won't read my email until the evening. That means that email will be sitting there for several hours probably."
Well the nationwide volunteer master list would be "live" meaning that volunteers would have a "current status" indicated on the master list website. Think in terms of Yahoo messenger for a moment. It has a similar status indicator that a user can change on the fly. If you are unavailable to receive messages, then you will not receive messages.It's that simple. Messages in cue will be directed to another appropriate station in the region on the nationwide master volunteer list.
You said:
"Are you advocating we just become a social organization dedicated to the delivery of H&W messages?"
That is a very valid point Jim, We need to know exactly who we are, what we do and what our intended mission is supposed to be. Right now, I am not so sure what that is supposed to be exactly. ...Do you? Does anybody?
For example, I am advocating that NTS increase our overall "information delivery" capabilities so we can do much, much more than just simply handle H&W traffic during an event like Katrina.
By adopting several additional streams of ongoing information delivery capability (note I didn't say H&W traffic) These additional information delivery systems would mean that we will become more relied upon during a crisis because we would be capable of getting more "various channels" of different sorts of "information" in and out of a disaster zone in minutes and not hours.
To envision this idea of "information delivery" think in terms of how CNN, FOX networks do this.
How many times have you heard agencies like FEMA or other EMA agencies say, "I heard more about whats going on here from CNN or FOX news than I heard from our own chain of command?"
This occurs all the time. now lets ask, how can we put ourselves in that same position?
How can we get FEMA to say something like, "I get more information from HAMS then our own chain of command?"
...Do you see where I am going with this?
The fact that media outlets are well known for their high level of instant communication capabilities during an event like Katrina proves that they have an information delivery model that hams should give further consideration.
I feel as hams we should further study this information delivery model and ask ourselves if we can adopt a similar level of instant information delivery for EMA authorities.
I feel hams would do this better than the media because there are simply more hams than reporters out there in the field.
So by sheer mass and numbers, hams would be more effective in getting critical information out of the affected area in a much shorter period of time.
Now I feel that if hams put themselves in that sort of position as far as flexible communication and information delivery goes, then EMA's will come begging for our help.
So to answer your question Jim, no we will not just be a social organization. We will actually be in demand for a change.
No, I am not saying we all go out and start running around on the street reporting the news on CNN, but what we can do is strategically organize and position ourselves so we can give EMA agencies the level of "information" that they are REALLY looking for. This IS after all about communicating "information" isn't it?
The trick to that objective is to accurately identify what that information is exactly and then give them an instant reply to that request on the fly. That information could be instantly provided from hams if we study the needs a little closely. Unfortunatly Radiograms are not that piece of the puzzle in 2005.
Using better and more efficient methods of information delivery utilizing ham communication equipment in affected areas combined with the high speed of the internet, live nationwide volunteer lists, digital modes with error correction for accuracy, paperless communication in areas unaffected by events would surely put us on the EMA forefront and not on their back burners.
It's time to drop the pony express mailbag folks. It served it's purpose well for it's time. These are new times and NTS needs to step up the pace in order to keep up to today's information delivery challenges.
If we don't change, NTS will simply fall behind the times (or has it already?)or even worse become completely dissolved. We HAVE to do something about it...and soon.
Thanks for listening.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by ICOMTECH66 on October 13, 2005
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In all seriousness -- why wouldn't this work...
FEMA or an appropriate first repsonder agency purchases 5000 older Iridium phones (9500 models - they retail now for about 200 dollars). They then get a flat rate govt air time package. These 9500 have a baud rate of 2400 (yes I know thats slower then molasses). They then couple these 5000 phones to 5000 older Dell Inspiron D600 or equivalent (you can get these from Dell for about 500 dollars).
So you have your laptop now hooked to a SATPHONE and all you do is send and email (small kb size messages) from the refugee station or superdome or whatever to a central email address that does nothing but post it on the FEMA missing person website so everyone else in the world can access that tells the persons name and shelter they are at with phone number or email address of the shelter....
so ... my mom is in a shelter in Baton Rouge -- the radio operator via a laptop computer and Satphone types my mothers info into the message format -- transmits it to FEMA or Red Cross (whatever) they take the info and put it on the web ... I see my moms name and where she is at along with her contact info...
and the laptop and sat[hone can work intially off of batteries until power is resotrored or they hook it to a car or something....
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 13, 2005
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How about using all the various resources available to us. For example, stations could check into a voice coordinating net. Someone could agree to take a message with no phone number or e-mail for routing. The Internet could be used to transfer the message to him quickly and without error. If he finds a phone number he could deliver it by telephone. If he finds an e-mail he could forward it directly to the addressee via e-mail. If it needs to be hand delivered he could go back on the voice net to ask for a volunteer in the local area and forward it to him via e-mail. If there is no one available in the local area then put it in the mail and continue to attempt delivery via electronic means. It just doesn't make sense to me to slow delivery of someone's message because we don't want to use any means that is not ham radio. What happens when it gets to the destination city? Most people would not have any problem with using the telephone to make delivery. That fact that it is H&W does not mean that we should take our time. You may save someone two or three days of needless worry about a family member who is okay. H&W traffic should be delivered as soon as practical using any means available.
If the internet is out then forward it via WinLink or some other digital means. If that is not available then use voice or CW or anything else you have available.
Back in the 70's we were using a combination of RTTY and CW or RTTY and SSB (on the same frequency) to handle traffic on MARS. For example, we would establish contact via SSB and switch to RTTY to send the traffic. Then switch back to SSB to get fills and an acknowledgement for the traffic. It went a whole lot faster than trying to pass 200-300 messages by voice or CW - and it meant we had paper copy and punch tapes so it could be relayed on without introducing errors.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 13, 2005
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> What happens then?
It goes to the email address of the intended recipient.
One of the flaws in the analog NTS model is that it relies on hams on both ends. A digital system doesn't need to.
By the way, the 'no email address book' thing is a red herring. Surprisingly, a lot of people carry their email address books with them. They're called "cell phones", and they also have their phone book as well.
Oh, but that's not why it's a red herring. It's a red herring because the same people who don't know grandma's phone number or email address aren't going to know her physical address either.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KILOWATT on October 13, 2005
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I once heard two hams transferring emergency traffic over one of our local repeaters. Apparently a dirt bike rider had taken a serious spill and had broken a limb. Because this happened in the middle of nowhere, the ham "on scene" was using his HT to raise help for the downed rider.
These two guys must have gone back and forth six or eight times relaying....PHONETICALLY!!!....every damned detail of the accident. Ultimately, the ham that had originated the call cancelled it because the ambulance was already on scene. Someone with a cell phone had gotten through.
What struck me as humorous was the fact that if these two guys hadn't been so busy playing "self-important, over-grown boyscout" they could have had the ambulance there ten minutes earlier than the cell phone user.
Sorry guys/gals but......
This is the image that we have. People that have nothing more in their lives than their amateur radio licenses, who are chomping at the bit to suddenly "be important".
By the time we phonetically spell everything back and forth six or eight times, someone with a computer or cell phone has had everything in hand for ten minutes.
You wish to be valuable in times of crisis? Fine. I'm with you. But we have to change the way in which we handle emergency traffic.
Kilowatt
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 13, 2005
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To be honest, most of what has been posted here in the latest posts describe a system that isn't NTS nor even ham radio related. It may very well portend the demise of the NTS system.
To my point of view, what is being described could better be provided by a nationwide organization other than ham radio. For instance, the Red Cross and Salvation Army has organizations in most communities and these personnel could download 'emails' from a central posting server just as easy as hams could. I could even participate, not as ham, but as a volunteer to one of these organizations.
Maybe I'm selfish, but I want to use my radios. That is what I'm interested in, not using my computer to download messages from the internet. I know some folks see using a WIFI link as 'using a radio' but I'm sorry I don't. I see it as a way to utilize your computer, not utilize your radio.
I am not computer unsavvy. I spent the last 20 years of my career doing computer support for a telephone company. Our Directory Assistance database had 25 million listings and we did nightly updates on it. I also supported the terminals for DA access from multiple states and the PC's for office use.
I am just not interested in sitting in front of a computer communicating with people anymore, not near as much as using the radio on phone and cw. Using a computer to communicate is too impersonal and it just doesn't excite me. If it excites other folks, then I'll move on and leave it to those hams to do the H&W traffic.
Maybe its time to admit that the NTS doesn't offer what is needed anymore and be done with it. I don't think anyone will really miss it other than the folks like me that were waiting for it to be used.
Let the folks advocating WIFI spend their time and sweat and funds to set up the new system they advocate. Although, it is interesting to see that most of them want OTHER hams to give up NTS and OTHER hams to do the work of developing and IMPLEMENTING a new system. Makes you wonder if they can or will expend the effort needed or just want to critize.
Jim
WA0LYK
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KD5TXD on October 13, 2005
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Regarding the article “The future of the National Traffic System”
Haven’t a clue where the author of this article was hanging out on the bands. He wasn’t on 7290 and 3935 after Katrina landfall or he would have heard gobs of health and welfare traffic being passed successfully.
I guess I am an odd bird apparently. I like stuff that other people think is out of style and useless. I try not to get offended when I read articles like this, but I admit I am offended. Guess that is the goal of internet threads like this, to offend as many people as possible. Someone came onto the Thursday10:30a.m. RN5 net(that’s part of the National Traffic System) and mentioned this article so I thought I would see what it was about. I nearly gave up fiddling with the membership nonsense and waiting to be approved or what ever it is that takes so long. Could have ragchewed with y’all for hours while waiting to get my official membership approval. Talk about slow and useless... I signed off of the internet about 5 years ago because people on the internet tend to be such a turn off. I got my ham ticket about three years ago. Since people, such as the author of this article, actually think there wasn’t any health and welfare traffic being passed in and out of the affected areas I felt it necessary to make a comment even if it required me to sign up on the internet on this eham nonsense. I think of the internet in much the same way some of you think of the NTS, an obsolete waste.
Now, I am new to traffic handling and am a small fish in the NTS pool. During Katrina I assisted close to 100 amateur radio operators format their health and welfare requests and then channeled those health and welfare requests into the NTS. We used CW, voice and digital modes. Several of the messages I assisted formatting I also got to relay into the affected area and stand by while an NTS operator in the affected area delivered the ARL NINTEEN and returned with responses such as, “I’m OK x lost everything x”. It was an NTS operator who contacted Memorial Hospital Gulfport before they could call out to the world and reported back to us on the NTS that staff and patients were all OK. (that was before any digital/WINKINK2000 systems came up.) We relayed this information back to worried families. I was surprised at how few regular hams knew about NTS or how to generate a message. It isn’t that big a deal to put a message into a standard format. A little order and procedure helps during confused times. Dang, it is harder to get a membership blessing on this internet eham scam thingie than it is to make an NTS radiogram. I could have sent y’all ROUTINE RADIOGRAMS by the time I was allowed to post on this internet eham scam trash.
It is also amusing that some of the very first messages we got into the affected area were taken by NTS CW operators (shades of the Jay Leno contest between ultra modern technology and good old CW). Then we found some hams with generators and we fed voice message after voice message to them. Finally, about WEEK AFTER LAND FALL someone got a digital system up accepting traffic for about 20 communities. So, quick, tell me how wonderful WINKINK2000 is.
I participated. I heard the traffic. I relayed traffic in. I carried answers out. And I helped those who didn’t have a clue how to use the NTS. I advised families of the many internet lists to check for survivors. I had phone numbers to give to people to get them in touch with Red Cross and Salvation Army. I received e-mail requests and formatted the requests to go into the NTS. When we got word about a new internet survivor list I searched the list for the 100+ inquiries that I had already put into the NTS just in case I could find someone. Just in case I could call the worried family member to have them check to see if that person was their missing loved one. I did what amateur radio operators are supposed to do, I used every communication tool available to me, even the cursed internet.
Oh, and solicitation of traffic was not prohibited during Rita. Stations were simply asked to bring their traffic in NTS format instead of taking the time of the NTS traffic handlers to reformat your traffic.
Also, y’all might not know, but FEMA had to use an amateur radio operator with a good old fashioned phone patch to let President Bush talk to the mayor of New Orleans. Talk about obsolete!
Not really sure where the author of this article was during Katrina(don’t care either). It is hard to imagine that anyone on the ham bands didn’t hear a bunch of health and welfare traffic. Must not have been on 7290 and 3935 immediately after Katrina. He must not have been on 40 or 80 meters at all because independent traffic nets were also taking traffic. Maybe 40 and 80 meters aren’t cool enough. I don’t have time to read all of the responses to this article. From the few I read I conclude that I don’t really care much about the responses.
As a traffic handler I feel like I helped people even if the author didn’t know we were working the nets. Even if all of you don’t think NTS did anything of value. The bottom line is, as always, find some way to help and get involved. NTS is my way. If NTS goes away I will find some other way to help. Will you? Or will you be sitting around bitching about how other people should be helping? You consider my efforts useless and obsolete? The folks who got messages back from me that their family members were alive didn’t think that. Those are the folks that count to me. It would be interesting to know how many families you critics of NTS were personally able to help via internet, cell phone, ultra high tech voodoo?? Or maybe you critics were way too busy involved in your television voyeurism, dwelling on the emoting and rumormongering of Geraldo and all the other media magots. Y’all can keep the internet. I won’t bother telling you what I think of the internet. I have a 50w solar panel, a deep discharge marine battery, a K2 I assembled myself, and some wire. If someone needs me y’all know where to find me, on the NTS nets.
KD5TXD
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 13, 2005
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Jim WA0LYK says:"Ok, so every ham puts up a 2.4 Ghz station for data transmission...Just exactly what messages are we going to send over this NEW-NTS data system?"
- Honestly, it don't matter, so long as the legal beagle are kept fat, dumb & blind
"Where do they originate from?"
- Whatever NTS guys can figure it out.
"What format do they use?"
- They could use various methods, whether it be SMS, POSCAG or any other text mode.
"Where do they terminate?"
- At the destinations or station relaying it.
"What addressing is used?"
- How about providing an email address as a priority, followed by cell number, with physical address & phone number as finite backup?
"You appear to saying, 'why can't hams be a common carrier and put up radio internet links'. We can, but that doesn't remove the FCC rules and regulations about what can be carried over these links."
- Holy bad moon, we definately need wholesale rule changes. If the ARRL had the vision to see the future in realistic terms, they'd already be on this. Nope, too busy pushing their pet, WinLink, a slow speed HF proprietary model.
"What method do you propose that makes sure only legal traffic is carried over these links?"
- To be perfectly honest, I am not concerned with legalities. I fail to see how the NTS system can be used to circumvent postal & telephone revenues in the first place. I see hypocracy with NTS as it has been!
!WHEW! Were you a lonely child? Lots of questions... : )
"I read the article you referenced. I asked myself, do they also eliminate the need for voice radio traffic?"
- It sure minimizes the need for any when VoIP is wireless as well & can get to common carrier outlets, WITHOUT A MIDDLEMAN! Notice the Part15 folks got a 45 megabit pipeline to their central point
"The article certainly didn't indicate that."
- It was not written for radio consumption so please bear that in mind...
"Please don't be internet-centric. The internet and computers aren't the only means of communications, nor are they the best in many circumstances."
*** This kills me. Computers are a common language in 2005. The only difference between EchoLink & Vonage is that one don't need a license. If VoIP is touted as a "radio enhancement" on behalf of the Hurricane Center's connection to "When all else fails", why is an 802.11 WiFi phone a bad thing? Simple, you either resent the technology or the fact it is unlicensed or both.
Now for the fun part:
"1) HIGH gain antennas means very stable physical structures. Are you going to carry stable towers to mount them on in order to get above localized restrictions?"
- That's funny. I use high gain omni's on 2.4GHz & 5GHz that are under 40" long. No need to have "stable towers". Some of these are mounted with DirecTV mounts! No restrictions apply!
"2) HIGH gain antennas means your only going to get to one physical destination, not multiple shelters. Now you need several routes established?"
- Again omni's can do point-multipoint. If Mesh is used, destinations are dynamic & self-healing (reroutes in case of path failure). You can configure any clustering required, just by arranging frequency & antenna patterns: Omni, sector, dish, yagi...
"3) Once you start into the disaster area, no power. Are you going to use a battery, solar panel, and inverter to power your WIFI repeater at each tower site? Are you going to provide generators. Maybe looooonnnnggg extension cords?"
- Most of the Access Points run on DC below 18VDC. I powered 200mW cameras & access points on 1amp solar cells with 7AH gelcell floats. No need for generators & DC can run a few amps on small gauge wire, if needed for battery changes or solar location. Jeeves!
"4) Are you going to provide security and have spare setups for the equipment (towers, generators, solar panels/batteries, etc.) that sprouts legs and walks off during the middle of the night? What do you do now?"
- I have mounted lots of 802.11 wifi stuff for a few years now, just with "high voltage" label on the boxes. You could leave it laying on a sidewalk, no one bothered any of it. Most times I make it inaccessable on rooftops & balconies, if possible. That's the way I lay my stuff out.
"5) Last but not least, where are you going to get an internet connection at the edge of the disaster area? An EOC that doesn't know you from Adam? Knock on doors till you find someone who will let you use their DSL or cable connection? Perhaps set up your own DirectTV connection on a public right of way?"
- You find the closest surviving telco, put up a 5GHz point to point or the same place the guys from Part15 got theirs, the generosity of the telco co. You can ask for cooperation from local telco, who would prioritize emergency connection requests, sniff out a network to tap bandwidth or call any satellite carrier. They'd likely already be deployed, as happened during Katrina & Rita. I have used SES America for satellite video/wifi at a minimum of 768kbps/video & 384kbps/wifi. There are even cellular to wifi access points. Done all the time & no need for any EOC/ARES/RACES/PLUTO/GOOFY approval.
"6) Do you think security concious EOC folks are going to accept your internet connection to their computers?"
- They did before the EOC was activiated, so why the sudden problem? Beggars weren't choosers during the recent devastation...
I know you are not trying to be wise but you are not understanding just how little is involved & the options are infinite. Maybe I just go into situations with my eyes open as well as my mind. I always maintain a "can do" attitude. While I am no programmer, I can get RF where needed, on a shoestring, if needed. Perhaps thats why I never say "IT CAN'T BE DONE". We are living during a wireless revolution, fueled by the internet. It is time to either become part of it or move to a museum. This revolution will be televised (streaming), not SLOW scan!
k4raf@yahoo.com
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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KD5TXD,
Ok im confused. You come on here saying:
"I like stuff that other people think is out of style and useless."
Then you say:
"Talk about slow and useless... I signed off of the internet about 5 years ago"
THEN YOU SAY: (the confusing part)
"And I helped those who didn’t have a clue how to use the NTS. I advised families of the many internet lists to check for survivors. I had phone numbers to give to people to get them in touch with Red Cross and Salvation Army. I received e-mail requests and formatted the requests to go into the NTS. When we got word about a new internet survivor list I searched the list for the 100+ inquiries that I had already put into the NTS"
So are you against using new technology like the internet (you know, the thing you referred to as "slow and useless") to help streamline and help people in need at your own NTS station?
Are you confused about your own intentions!? Because I sure am.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 13, 2005
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*******************
k4raf:""1) HIGH gain antennas means very stable physical structures. Are you going to carry stable towers to mount them on in order to get above localized restrictions?"
- That's funny. I use high gain omni's on 2.4GHz & 5GHz that are under 40" long. No need to have "stable towers". Some of these are mounted with DirecTV mounts! No restrictions apply!
"2) HIGH gain antennas means your only going to get to one physical destination, not multiple shelters. Now you need several routes established?"
- Again omni's can do point-multipoint. If Mesh is used, destinations are dynamic & self-healing (reroutes in case of path failure). You can configure any clustering required, just by arranging frequency & antenna patterns: Omni, sector, dish, yagi...
"3) Once you start into the disaster area, no power. Are you going to use a battery, solar panel, and inverter to power your WIFI repeater at each tower site? Are you going to provide generators. Maybe looooonnnnggg extension cords?"
- Most of the Access Points run on DC below 18VDC. I powered 200mW cameras & access points on 1amp solar cells with 7AH gelcell floats. No need for generators & DC can run a few amps on small gauge wire, if needed for battery changes or solar location. Jeeves!
************************
I've done some investigation into this as part of a autonomous robot project.
You are giving a VERY optomistic picture of things. The antennas you are speaking of will barely give a three mile *consistent* connection. That is perfect for most of the links being installed in metro areas but not in some place like LA or MS where you need to cover tens of miles to get to the affected locations and line-of-sight from ground level can cause significant problems. Those wifi locations will have to be ROUTERS, not just low-power hubs because ethernet over those distances using multiple hubs creates a very problematic network. Those routers pull more power and require configuration. You'll have to make sure that all the ip addresses and routing tables are pre-configured correctly to work with the networks you are connecting to - not necessarily an easy task to do since it would have to be done ahead of placing the intermediate locations. Otherwise you could be trying to connect a 212.0.0.0 EOC network to a 252.0.0.0 ISP network and things won't work. If you want to eliminate these problems then you *will* need high, stable platforms for high-gain antennas. That will significantly complicate the problem.
The bottom line is that a widespread disaster like Katrina requires thinking in a widespread manner - e.g. HF radio - if you want to get out of the area immediately afterwards. Building infrastructure like you have described will take some time to accomplish. As we saw here, the authorities won't even let people into the area for as long as 48-72 hours.
Now, that said, I think this is something the Amateur Radio community needs to look into. The ARRL HSMM group should be leading the way but I'm not entirely sure what they are doing nowadays.
*MOST* disasters the ARS community deal with are situations that would need only short-haul links that would be much easier to provide. Use of a simple wrt54g loaded with linux doing NAT translation would allow connecting two different networks quickly and easily and would even allow remote configuration via secure SSH connections.
Anyway, something to think about.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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I want to use my radios. That is what I'm interested in, not using my computer to download messages from the internet. I know some folks see using a WIFI link as 'using a radio' but I'm sorry I don't. I see it as a way to utilize your computer, not utilize your radio.
-------
Jim, I completely respect that opinion. What I like about Amateur Radio is that there is plenty of room for all of us to enjoy it how each of us see fit. Your doing it your way and that's how you like it. I'm ok with that.
Carry on and accept my best regards.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 13, 2005
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As we saw here, the authorities won't even let people into the area for as long as 48-72 hours.
----
Another valid point.
While I see the safety aspects of this to some extent, I question these obstructions that were placed in the way preventing people from getting the help they needed.
The good part is that the entire general population of the US are also asking authorities the very same question as we are.
This is an excellent opportunity to get our foot wedged in the door as far as responding to these events in the future are concerned.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 13, 2005
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I have attempted to read many of the well thought out comments lured into the light by Steve-KB9X's article. Steve was there while the rest of us watched the confusion on CNN and FoxNews.
The notion that we are to only serve communications of the "served agency" is oriented to a specific kind of disaster. What I witnessed on TV was number of civic center arenas overwhelmed by refugees. The served agencies were still a long way off. What I witnessed was tens of thousands of people unable to locate their families.
Some time ago, I approached Jim Haynie with the notion that hams develop a more sophisticated approach to comms. An approach that could provide significant throughput. I was told to sit tight. What was announced a short time later was the wonders of a proprietary comm method called Winlink2K. That was a couple of years ago. Since then, I have yet to even see a winlink2K in operation. I know of nobody that owns such a contraption. To my knowledge, Winlink2K was not used in Katrina. I have yet to hear of its use anywhere. I have yet to hear a SET use it.
Imagine hams being charged with helping families locate their missing members. Imagine hams coordinating the collection of names and location information on a centralized list. Imagine family members locating said list and sending a telegram-like message to that location. Imagine volunteers (quite possibly the refugees themselves) being organized into a post office where people could pick up and read messages from the outside, and respond. Now THAT would be service.
Instead of trying to grind 10,000 messages through the microphone of an IC706, messages could be formatted using laptops operated by the refugees themselves--with hams providing the technical expertise to make it happen. Messages into and out of the affected area would be processed in a central location and distributed to the appropriate party. Internet, phones, tin-cup-and-a-string, who cares! Connecting people would make a big difference to those affected.
It is clear that the professional emergency management agencies are very accutely aware of who pays the bills and why. Until appropriate arrangements are made at the very top levels of NTS organization (read: ARRL), by executing appropriate agreements between hams and the 'agencies,' we will be talking to each other during these events.
Until comms for a first response in these refugee situations are planned and appropriate training established, we will be forever be sitting back wondering why we were not more effective. Without training, as Steve points out in the article, there will be no effective 'response' possible. Section Managers should be orchestrating SET activities that truly simulate this situation. Served agencies need to incorporate our skills into their skill set without being a threat to their comm budgets.
Software is needed. Not proprietary (read expensive) software--it should be free. And EVERYBODY should have an operating copy and know how to use it. I don't mean a modem running a text editor, I mean software that can handle traffic and assist in the collection and delivery (internet, traditional NTS, paper copy, USMail) of properly formatted messages.
My guess is that there are 25 people reading this thread with the software skills to make it happen. STAND UP AND DO IT! People died in Katrina due to lack of preparation and planning. More died in Rita. Every year that passes with hams embracing 50 year old technology and stubbornly REFUSING to enter the 21st century is directly causing the death of innocent people. Stand up and do it damn it!
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 13, 2005
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"Instead of trying to grind 10,000 messages through the microphone of an IC706, messages could be formatted using laptops operated by the refugees themselves--with hams providing the technical expertise to make it happen. "
This is exactly what happened in Red Cross shelters, but without us. The "balk factor" of most current hams at letting control go has impeded us to the point that we were replaced.
"Every year that passes with hams embracing 50 year old technology and stubbornly REFUSING to enter the 21st century is directly causing the death of innocent people."
I wouldn't go that far Ford. I think that the State authorities are far more accountable for the deaths than any lowly ham IMHO. Anyone who still supports the LA Governess or NO Mayor needs a head exam.
As far as "do it...", within 15 minutes of my post, I received a nicely worded email request to help design some rapid deployment systems. I would be more than happy to do what I can to see something good come out of this productive discussion. While what we are discussing might not be NTS, it might be a great ability we don't have currently & never did. Once upon a time, packet had promise. Now, it is 802.11, which was derived mainly from AX.25...
I also agree with Charles on many of his points. I too feel that anything with an antenna is a radio. To each his own, plenty of room in the pool. I just want to see some of the innovation returned to amateur radio, not squandered by politicos & their pet proprietary schemes!
Feel free k4raf@yahoo.com
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 13, 2005
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"The ARRL HSMM group should be leading the way but I'm not entirely sure what they are doing nowadays."
Nothing but CBifying something not designed for such 'alligator' operations.
While I might be somewhat optimistic on my project parameters, this was already done with a 'soup' of conventional 802.11, mesh & some 802.16 equipment. In case you have not read it, here is the article: http://informationweek.mobilepipeline.com/171203119
I understand what you mean though Tim, however, please look at this system & see what you think. It goes kind of hand-in-hand with your LinkSys/SveaSoft idea:
http://www.rajant.com/
A 2005 version of the Motorola 'lunchbox'? : )
k4raf@yahoo.com
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC5BPD on October 14, 2005
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I find the relpies quite interesting. I think many people should stop and find out what part ham radio has served. It turns out that many EOCs were relying exclusively on hams. Soemtimes said hams came from outside the disaster area. Some hopsitals foudn themselves relying exclusivly on ham radio. But the relevance of ham radio isn't really what the article was about.
I think it is time for the NTS to re-evaluate. In Dallas alone, the Red Cross claims 28,000 people were assisted from the shelter. I suspect this includes people who stayed nearby and used the point for assistance other then a place to sleep. There was another large shelter operation in Fort Worth (repeater range from Dallas).
Our section traffic manager didn't think it would be possible and wouldn't investigate checking if we could send in some people to attempt to H&W traffic. As a result the two local nets had a wopping 0 messages in or out for over 28,000 people displaced.
This isn't about ham radio in general. RACES is heavily relied upon by the National Weather Service here. RACES was a large part of the Y2K plans. RACES is being figured on in many of the town's CERT plans.
What this is about, is why I would spend time in two local nets that managed to carry a total of four dead end messages that were inbound into areas with no known traffic points. I get that we had method of delivery to people in LA. I get that the people quite likely were not there. What I don't get is why we didn't try and help the 28,000 people who were local to us.
The saving purpose is though that a number of people in QST mentioned that training in the NTS helped them deal with the situation in the tactical nets. But it makes one wonder why the NTS couldn't once again be more then a training ground.
Kirk Wood
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 14, 2005
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**************
ae6ip:
> What happens then?
It goes to the email address of the intended recipient.
One of the flaws in the analog NTS model is that it relies on hams on both ends. A digital system doesn't need to.
By the way, the 'no email address book' thing is a red herring. Surprisingly, a lot of people carry their email address books with them. They're called "cell phones", and they also have their phone book as well.
Oh, but that's not why it's a red herring. It's a red herring because the same people who don't know grandma's phone number or email address aren't going to know her physical address either.
******************
ROFL!!
Yep, most of those 30-40,000 people at the Dome and the Convention Center had their PDA's, cell phones, and phone books with them!
ae6ip -- The "I may live in my own little world but at least everyone knows me here" man.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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People at the end of the message chain can be easy to locate in most instances.
The victim only needs to supply the attending ham operator with a first and last name, a state, and a city or town.
A ham could verify and look up the intended destination of the victims H&W message. A station on the net outside the disaster zone uses an internet connection, and a yellow pages website to retrieve the information.
No cellphone, address book, or PDA required.
This could be a part of the services we provide for victims. Call it an "Address verification request" or something.
This is how it works:
The ham at the disaster location feeds the request (digital request form) to the "Alpha/INFO Lookup" station who is standing by on the net for such occasion. Alpha/Info station hops on the net looks up info for victim. Minutes later the digital request form is returned back to the ham at the disaster location with the information provided. Victim prepares and sends out message.
See how easy that was? Hams find a solution to every problem.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB9X on October 14, 2005
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>> WA0LYK: To be honest, most of what has been posted here in the latest posts describe a system that isn't NTS nor even ham radio related. It may very well portend the demise of the NTS system.
Absolutely true. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, if what is put into place is better than NTS. The worst scenario is to keep NTS on life support just because of tradition.
It’s interesting that the comments on this article about NTS have generalized into a discussion of how ham radio should respond to disasters. That’s fine, but I notice that no one has really come up with a reason to retain NTS in its current configuration.
>> KD5TXD: Haven’t a clue where the author of this article was hanging out on the bands. He wasn’t on 7290 and 3935 after Katrina landfall or he would have heard gobs of health and welfare traffic being passed successfully.
I did hear the operation on 7290, but it was not a part of NTS. Yes, there was some H&W traffic there, but the volume was very low considering the magnitude of the disaster. I would use the word “painfully” rather than “successfully”; it was obvious that most of the operators involved had no training and no comprehension of how to efficiently pass traffic.
Later in your comments you relate that traffic was flowing into NTS. Where did it go? Why is it that no one else saw it? You are the only person in this entire thread who saw any traffic in NTS, other than KC5R (who reported six messages and didn’t mention whether they were handled via NTS or other means).
I am sorry that you feel that my primary goal in writing this eHam article was to offend you. The goal was to make you think. In many cases, that can be painful because it calls into question ideas that are emotionally sensitive. I know because I’ve been associated with NTS for decades.
>>KC8VWM: While I see the safety aspects of this to some extent, I question these obstructions that were placed in the way preventing people from getting the help they needed.
Having been there, I now understand that this is a very tricky tightrope. It’s easy to criticize the way that the response to Katrina was handled, and there are many legitimate things to criticize. None of the responding agencies are perfect, and I saw many problems with FEMA, the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, and other agencies while I was there. The vast majority of the people involved with the response are trying to do what they think is right, but sometimes they fail pretty spectacularly.
That said, there has to be some pretty tight control over who is allowed to enter a disaster area. There are a lot of people with big hearts who really want to help but quickly become a part of the problem if allowed to enter. And unfortunately there are lowlifes who just want to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit.
Bottom line: Ham radio must have pre-existing agreements with known agencies like the Red Cross and the Salvation Army, or there will be no entry into the affected area until recovery is well on the way. The only way that “ham radio” can obtain this access is via the ARRL and their agreements with the NGOs. If you don’t care for the Red Cross and/or the Salvation Army . . . tough. It’s simply a fact of life that they are the ones calling the shots in a disaster, and if there’s to be any meaningful ham radio response, it must be in cooperation with these agencies or with FEMA. That’s why the agreements that ARRL negotiates are so important.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K8MHZ on October 14, 2005
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Why use hams for emergency comms?
Well, the million or so words in this thread illustrate that as a group we use, study, develop, build, test and deploy nearly every form of tele-communication there is.
Why be hesitant to use hams for emergency comms?
First, a lack of training in the area of working with served agencies. This covers many aspects, including what to do to stay out of the way.
Second, a hesitance to work with strangers and strange systems.
The fix? Schedule and perform traning sessions and events with potential served agencies. Demostrate what our epuipment can do.
To illustrate, at an air show I worked security operations. I was at a corner working with a policeman. He had police comms which, of course, was through a dispatch operator. I had ham comms on several freqs. My info was practically real time, and the same info would arrive on the police officers radio a few minutes delayed. Plus, I heard traffic of all sorts, not just that which was directed to my unit. We were both entertained by having the two systems next to each other. Keep in mind that the police comms are different and worked well and as they should, there was no need for the traffic officer to have real time news of the show, but he did like it. He also thought the cross band repeater in my mini-van was cool. His chief likes the local hams, too, or we would not have been there.
As for NTS....I was asked to use the system at a search for a missing child. It was so slow and cumbersome that we stopped using it and just took notes. It IS, however, a standard, and standards do tend to work. But I did not like NTS. I also do not like the abbreviations, which cause a person to spend far more time looking them up than they saved.
I do think we could derive a better system from the NTS if we tried. The system does not correct bad operating procedure. On a net one night I heard this bonehead us NTS to say Happy Mother's Day to All Mothers. It tied up the net for 10 or 15 minutes, his word count was not right (even after two tries), he used ARL codes, he used phonetics to spell easy words, like mom, and overall was a totally unintelligible mess.
We now have not only the ability to use computers with our radios, but there are so many affordable, even cheap, computers around that I think they will outlive our radios. To have the ability to transmit digital messages from a battery powered station in an area without power to another is an edge. To incorporate our system as a link to surviving comm systems, the Internet being the biggie, is also an edge. Add to that the ability to also have real time voice and throw in a few portable repeaters (EchoStation) and we now have the possibility of being useful.
At local operations, I have found that we can serve to tie multiple forms of communications together. At an event we will have Central Dispatch for PD and Fire, but not for airport staff or vendors. Also, tower staff, ground staff, show staff, air ops, security, transportation, Fire med, EMT, Red Cross,military, etc, all have different radios and can't communicate with each other. By placing a ham with a staffer of each of the different forms of comms we can now transfer messages from one discipline to another. It works, I can tell you from experience. But the ham that works in that respect must have at least a working knowledge of the service they are working with. That means training.
If we become useless for emergency comms, it is OUR fault, not our hobby's. We have all that we need to stay useful.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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Incorporate APRS with NTS for instant message delivery to volunteer stations located outside the affected area.
No need for channelizing messages through the pony express mailbag when you can simply send messages directly where they need to go.
Download digital message sent from disaster area from radio to PC. locate NTS station on APRS map. Forward message to station via high speed internet connection.
Done...
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 14, 2005
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*****************
k4raf:
While I might be somewhat optimistic on my project parameters, this was already done with a 'soup' of conventional 802.11, mesh & some 802.16 equipment. In case you have not read it, here is the article: http://informationweek.mobilepipeline.com/171203119
I understand what you mean though Tim, however, please look at this system & see what you think. It goes kind of hand-in-hand with your LinkSys/SveaSoft idea:
http://www.rajant.com/
A 2005 version of the Motorola 'lunchbox'? : )
******************
While I'm sure the infoweek article has the typical hype in it (as does QST by the way) it is interesting. And the breadcrumb product is very interesting although I haven't yet found a price for one. That could be an impediment to use by volunteers like hams.
The *big* pitfall here is that it takes *computer network* trained people to set either of these up if you want to work with existing networks. When you talk about having to turn DHCP off/on and or set up gateway routers, that is NOT trivial to most hams.
The big question here is whether the ARS community is ready to move away from being "radio" people to being "computer" people. While I am somewhat computer literate, having been a linux system adminstrator in the past, to me Amateur Radio is still radio, not computers.
The advantage the ARS would have in setting up some of these networks is that the power limits we could run are higher (assuming you can limit the "lunchbox" operation to the lower channels) letting longer distance links be workable.
While this is interesting it is probably not germaine to the discussion of the future of the NTS system. I *really* don't see the NTS morphing into a computer networking group. Nor would I want it to.
Nor do I see the NTS being an "EMCOMM" type operation like many seem to think it should be. As I have pointed out before, the NTS system was not designed to be, never has been, and never will be a "real-time" tactical/logistical support system for front-line response teams. There are just too many people that don't seem to really understand what the NTS is and what it isn't.
As someone pointed out earlier, there were 28000 evacuees sitting in Houston and the STM didn't think it would be worthwhile to make an effort to generate outgoing H&W messages for those people. *THAT* is also what I ran into on the so-called H&W nets as well. When I queried several NCS's several times over the following week on how to help handle outoging traffic no one knew what efforts were being made to generate outgoing traffic and no one was interested in finding out.
It is THAT mindset that is most disturbing to me. It is THAT mindset that shows where the ARS community's perception of public service lies. Providing service to the public has taken a back seat to providing tactical/logistical service to the GO and NGO agencies - so much so that many hams don't even stop to think about how they could help the victims rather than the served agencies. I think a major portion of the blame for this kind of mindset must be laid at the feet of the ARRL - they seem to have certainly forgotten where the "Relay" portion of their name orignally came from.
There have been several interesting proposals on how to help these people contact others but they have all been internet-centric -- primarily so that delivery can be made in seconds or minutes instead of hours. I still think that these schemes figure most of the messages will have email addresses or that every burg, hamlet, and city in the US will have hams just sitting and waiting in front of their computers 24/7 for a message to pop up for delivery to a telephone number. I don't think that such speed is necessary for the H&W messages we are discussing nor do I think you will find that many hams interested in sitting in front of their computer acting as a delivery service agent.
That's not MY interest. You won't find me there sitting in front of my computer. I'd rather be sitting in front of my radio equipment. If we can't find ways to make use of the *radio* side of the service via the NTS then I'll find something else to do. I'd rather be making meals in a SA canteen. I'd rather be collecting "how are you, I'm fine" messages from the residents at the local nursing home who don't have cell phones or computers so I can send them over the NTS.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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I find it interesting that there are some people out there saying things like, "Let's not mix radio communication with computer technology" when in fact the majority of today's radio equipment consists of built in microprocessors, computer generated frequency displays, digital signal processors, memory chips, and LCD monitors.
Interesting that these people using this computerized radio equipment are the very same individuals who are opposed to the idea of mixing computers with Amateur Radio communications??!!?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 14, 2005
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********************
kc8vwm:
I find it interesting that there are some people out there saying things like, "Let's not mix radio communication with computer technology" when in fact the majority of today's radio equipment consists of built in microprocessors, computer generated frequency displays, digital signal processors, memory chips, and LCD monitors.
Interesting that these people using this computerized radio equipment are the very same individuals who are opposed to the idea of mixing computers with Amateur Radio communications??!!?
*********************
There is a difference between using "computerized" equipment to control components which generate propagating EM waves and using a computer to send digitized data over the internet.
It's kind of like a car is a car whether it has worm/sector steering or rack/pinion steering. A radio is a radio whether it has a analog display attached to a variable capacitor or a digital display driven by an encoder/counter unit. But just as a car is not a train, a radio is not a computer. Sitting in front of a computer screen waiting for a message to pop up is not the same as listening for voice or CW from far off places.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 14, 2005
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"While I'm sure the infoweek article has the typical hype in it (as does QST by the way) it is interesting."
What is interesting is how straightforward the approach is, while combining several layers of technology, including WiMax. While WiMax is not currently 'approved', Intel managed to get an STA from the FCC in under 8 hours.
"And the breadcrumb product is very interesting although I haven't yet found a price for one. That could be an impediment to use by volunteers like hams."
Well then we need to reverse engineer them. With $50 54G's & $20 Sveasoft flashes, a couple antennas & a gelcell battery, you could easily adapt such a concept to actually do what breadcrumb does. As Ford points out, there are 25 or more Linux heads reading this that could even tweak the flash files to make the 54G more adapted to the application(s) we have discussed here. I am not a programmer, rather I am an RF geek with good field testing experience.
Again, I extend the offer than if anyone wants to team up, I am more than willing to do my part. RF/DC/antennas though, no programming, although I can beta test.
k4raf@yahoo.com
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 14, 2005
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***********
kc8vwm:
The ham at the disaster location feeds the request (digital request form) to the "Alpha/INFO Lookup" station who is standing by on the net for such occasion. Alpha/Info station hops on the net looks up info for victim. Minutes later the digital request form is returned back to the ham at the disaster location with the information provided. Victim prepares and sends out message.
See how easy that was? Hams find a solution to every problem.
*************
I don't mean to be overly critical but you've just hogged the disaster-area network system up with three messages for one delivery where only one message is really needed. At the shelter location that will triple the handling time, the possible handling errors, the possbile transcribing errors, as well as the network load. It requires developing a waiting queue at the shelter worksite (like in a doctors office for people waiting for responses to come back - what if it never comes? e.g. an unlisted telephone number) with mulitiple handling of clients.
Wouldn't it just be easier to forward the message to the destination? Let the end point handler do the lookup and delivery?
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KD7YVV on October 14, 2005
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KB9X:
>> All else will NEVER fail. Sure, phones will go down,
>> electricity will go out, but somewhere, someplace,
>> even in a disaster zone, a cellphone is bound to
>> work. (Until the battery dies. :))
This is a statement made by someone who has never been in a disaster area like the one created by Katrina. Cell phone service was very spotty in Hattiesburg even two weeks after the storm, and that's many miles from landfall. On the Mississippi coast, where damage from the storm surge was worst, cell towers just disappeared.
You are correct, I've never been in a disaster area like Katrina. However, I was here in Washington when
we had the Nisqually earthquake.
I saw how the cell and phone networks were overloaded
and the 800 mhz trunked public service band was
overloaded and went into fail-safe mode.
I wasn't a ham back then, but I tell you, I'm glad
it scared me enough to get my license. :)
Allow me to clarify my earlier statement:
Someone heading out of the disaster area, with a cellphone, MAY hit a tower outside of the main disaster
area that is still functioning provided it isn't
already overloaded with calls.
So a cellphone is bound to work someplace.
When I say all else will never fail, it is a correct statement as, something will always be working someplace.
If not, then it would be a planet-wide catastrophe.
I know that Katrina was bad and a lot of the infrastructure was down, but someplace, somewhere, someone's cellphone
found a signal from a tower outside the disaster area, even when that person is inside the disaster area albiet on the fringe. :)
Radio signals know no boundries.
Heck, it was all over TV via aerial shots right after
Katrina moved on. Now back in the 70's I don't know
if that would've been possible in that short amount
of time.
I love technology, but I have to agree with one
thing, most people type faster than they can write.
As I learn more about emergency comms and how things
work, I hope that should something happen here in the
Seattle area, that I'm able to help in some way.
Am I an expert? Nope. :) Do I have a lot to learn? Yep.
KB9X, can you tell us more about your experiences
down there? I'm interested in what worked, what didn't
and what you would've changed.
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by W4MEC on October 14, 2005
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When I built my first RTTY demodulator in 1971, hooked to an old Model 100 page printer, I thought how neat this was and wondered why all traffic nets didn't use this format. Of course, everybody didn't have TTY gear, so all traffic nets on TTY was impracticle. In this day and age, there are all the new data modes, this should be the end all to getting message traffic across. But will all the elements be available at all times for all participants?
Everybody has a voice though, don't they? So phone is really the most practicle way to go! Really? What if you don't have a voice due to a medical problem or you have some other speech impediment that makes phone use impracticle? What if you don't have the money, property, ability to run a phone station with clout?
There is CW. Is this the ultimate traffic handling mode? Not by a long shot. But here is a mode even people confined to iron lungs have used, operating the key with a stick held in their mouth. Even low and medium power stations can get their message through, albeit slowly, if need be.
The NTS is still a viable element in this hobby for those who wish to participate. But it is up to the NTS participants to make it work, and my or your comment on this webpage really doesn't change much.
The main thing is to not ridicule the folks who love traffic handling when you might have no interest in it and think is takes up too much spectrum. It is somebodies niche in this hobby, just like your particular bent may be a thorn in the side of me or somebody else. You have the license, you want to play with your favorite mode/rig/antenna/ have at it and have fun.
I agree with the fellow who noted that in their heyday, the NTS was a way to get around Ma Bell's monopoly on long distance phone calls, and for 99.99% of the time, even in most emergency situations, the current telco system is unbeatable. The NTS is what rings the bell for those who participate and find it fulfilling and important. Its loss, is just a precursor to more bricks dropping out of this Ham wall, and like another person noted, CB may just out live Amateur Radio.
Charlie in NC
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 14, 2005
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I'd say that the odds of someone not knowing Morse code is much greater than someone not being able to speak. What good does a CW rig do if you don't have someone on the other end who can copy it?
Voice is not the most efficient way to relay 3rd party traffic but there are more people who have that capability than anything else. Digital modes are the most efficient but they require more equipment, more power, and more technical skill to get it going. CW certainly has its benefits, requires less equipment and less power but it requires a very specific operator skill.
The bottom line, as I've said before, is to use every means of communication that you have available.
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Message origination/delivery software
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by N0FP on October 14, 2005
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K4RAF wrote:
"Again, I extend the offer than if anyone wants to team up, I am more than willing to do my part. RF/DC/antennas though, no programming, although I can beta test. "
Katrina introduced a problem that is not typical of historical disasters. I.e. a huge number of refugees.
The point I was trying to illustrate in my earlier post is the dramatic throughput that could be achieved with simple interfaces. I say simple because a laptop is a simple device. And I'll bet that a good percentage of people holed up in the NO stadium knew how to use one.
With a half dozen laptops tucked under one arm, and a two wheeled cart full of ham gear, how hard would it be to hook up a peer-to-peer network on the floor of the civic arena and start pumping messages out the door? With practice, you would be spending more time gassing up the generator. I would bet a VHF or UHF link could have been used to pass traffic just outside the total destruction area. Even at 9600 baud, there could be a BUNCH of traffic passed.
With an appropriate software message origination "front-end" that would capture the client's name, address, telephone number that used to work, email address that used to work, etc. The people would stand in line, and pump simple 250 character messages into the system. Just outside the total destruction zone, these messages could be captured and channeled through to the internet, telephone volunteers, heck--even the US Mail would have been fine for many of the messages.
3 minute limit for message origination. 6 laptops for client use. That's 120 messages per hour. 30 seconds each for transmit time. Boda-bing-boda-boom DONE! 24/7 with downtime to gas the gen-set. Need more messages? Make two RF links and double the number of laptops.
The front-end software could even assign a temporary ID or email address to the client on first use. Should they then move to a different facility, they simply send a message to indicate their new location. Messages they would have received in the form of email could even be delivered.
On the receiving end, using simple tear-off perforated paper, incoming messages could be sorted by one of the 75 postal workers holed up in the arena. All messages would be unencrypted. So clients would have to understand that their messages were not private.
Imagine the millions Uncle would have saved if those people had been able to get a message through to Aunt Louise in Chicago "Can I come and stay with you? Will you come and get me?" Millions of dollars is a very conservative estimate. Imagine the rivers of tears saved by matching simple messages from loved ones to the rightful recipient.
What is needed is the software front-end and back-end that would handle the messages the people enter themselves by sitting at a laptop for 3 minutes. No need for assistance. No need for NTS coded messages. It could be made very intuitive--similar to an email after filling out an initial sign-up query screen. I would bet a HUGE percentage of people had the computer skills to do the message themselves if the hams had been allowed to set up the system to make it work.
Air lift an advanced team of hand-picked pros, who just happened to be hams, the very next AM. Once set up, the volunteer hams would be baby sitting the equipment. Instead of pushing NTS messages through microphones, they'd be eating Red Cross donuts while watching the messages pour through the system unimpeded by human hands, ears, lunch breaks, fatigue, sleep.
I said "just do it" because it is not rocket science. But somebody needs to take the time to figure out a standard, write the code, and make it available to everybody who cares. Section Managers, ARES people, EM people, everybody could be trained to use it--including the public at demonstrations set up to expose the system to the general masses.
K4RAF is willing to help. As am I (I'm a bean counter and not a programmer type though). Just do it!
Ford-N0FP
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RE: Message origination/delivery software
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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K4RAF is willing to help. As am I (I'm a bean counter and not a programmer type though). Just do it!
Ford-N0FP
-----
I'm ready. sign me up too! When do we start?
Charles - KC8VWM "at" arrl
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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I don't mean to be overly critical but you've just hogged the disaster-area network system up with three messages for one delivery where only one message is really needed.
---
I'm sorry Tim, but I respectfully disagree. What really matters is the objective. It's about how we can help people, not about finding ways how we can't help them.
One message using the current delivery system can equal at least 10 messages using a digital delivery system.
It's just the math and about the people.
Best 73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KILOWATT on October 14, 2005
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>Voice is not the most efficient way to relay 3rd party traffic but there are more people who have that capability than anything else. Digital modes are the most efficient but they require more equipment, more power, and more technical skill to get it going. CW certainly has its benefits, requires less equipment and less power but it requires a very specific operator skill<
And that "operator skill" is quite easily mastered. It just takes some drive, incentive and just a smidgeon of intelligence. Too bad our world has degenerated into a "give it to me now!" society. If it ain't a gas-it-and-go situation, most of us can no longer make it "go". Hence, we've become unimportant in the grand scheme of disaster relief.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Kilowatt
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB9X on October 14, 2005
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>> KB9X, can you tell us more about your experiences
>> down there? I'm interested in what worked, what didn't
>> and what you would've changed.
I would suggest that you read an article here on eHam written by one of the gentlemen that I worked with in Mississippi. It’s at http://www.eham.net/articles/12040
Very briefly, I think the most important things I learned were:
You go into something like this with a set of expectations. For example, ARRL was telling us that we were needed for HF communications and that we needed to be self-sufficient. So most of us brought HF gear, food, water, and camping equipment; we expected to be setting up HF stations and fending for ourselves. When we arrived, we discovered that the need was for tactical communications using two-meter FM, and there was plenty of food and water available. Most of us promptly shifted gears and pitched in to do what needed to be done, but a few folks just could not change their expectations and stalked away in disgust. That’s their prerogative; we are, after all, volunteers and as such we have a right to do what we feel is appropriate. I am glad that I stayed.
I learned that no agency is perfect, and there will be frustrating times. I saw some pretty bizarre mistakes, including the Red Cross issuing a bunch of checks that weren’t signed and things changing so fast that press releases were obsolete before they were delivered to the media. But we’re all human, and in times of stress, people make mistakes, plans go awry, things are forgotten, and patience can be at a premium. You just have to do the best you can to understand and, when all else fails, go with the flow.
Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. It was one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done.
I just hope that we can learn from the experience of Katrina so that the response will be more effective next time. Yes, there will be a “next time”; I hope it’s not as bad a Katrina, but the only thing that can be said for sure about disasters is that there will be another. ARRL desperately needs to build a database of potential responders; the time to do this is now, not when the disaster has already hit. Hours and days make a huge difference. The local hams did a tremendous job of planning for the disaster, putting together the most resilient repeater system I’ve ever seen, then doing yeoman duty manning EOCs after the event. By the time out-of-area hams arrived, they were completely exhausted. We should have been able to get there faster, and the only thing that will allow that to happen is planning ahead.
What would I change? Well, to try to move the topic just a bit back towards a discussion of NTS, my observation was that the response was “too little, too late” to respond to the health-and-welfare need. “Too little” because we had no spare people to do what we were being asked to do, and taking bodies away from that task to do H&W would have meant that we weren’t able to accomplish our primary objective. [See the article mentioned above for details on what we were doing.] “Too late” because by the time we got there, other arrangements had been made for outbound H&W traffic. Frankly, I am not sure that amateur radio is the best way to handle H&W traffic, especially if doing so implies using limited manpower that would be better deployed elsewhere. If I could wave a magic wand and change things for the next one, I would (1) develop an effective procedure for soliciting and passing H&W traffic and have a prior understanding with the agency running the shelter (2) know who was available for deployment into the area and get them there quickly (3) have a technical solution in place for getting the traffic just far enough outside the disaster area to be able to make telephone calls.
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RE: Message origination/delivery software
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by N0FP on October 14, 2005
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Charles is willing to help. Who else?
The beauty of the standardized format is that messages that can be readily delivered through email addresses just disappear into the web. Other messages could be delivered to volunteers located just about anywhere. Anybody with a nation-wide cell phone could deliver messages and originate responses in very short order. And yes, NTS format would also allow for delivery using NTS structures.
The "help" that is immediately needed is people with real experience with refugee oriented emergencies. Katrina was unique. Will it ever happen again? Who knows. People able to design and built the software interfaces using software that will run on just about anything. Software that will install itself, and is configurable to many situations. Software that can utilize tools like 802.11G, network itself, and contain back-room operations that interface to the rest of the civilized world. These are very technical skills. A team that is intimately familiar with the mechanisms that make these machines sing.
The software front-end may end up being a poster child for the ARRL and an interesting demonstration at hamfests. But if it was built, and it worked, agencies would come forward and ask for help to make it work. I bet they'd even be willing to fund the interface equipment.
Anybody motivated to embrace the challenge?
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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(e.g. an unlisted telephone number)
-----
Tim brought up a good point that I can't just easily dismiss.
Sometimes we need devil's advocates like Tim to look at how things are done in order to take corrective action in certain areas.
Tim, I have a former 15 year EMS background and I would be glad to provide you with my credentials on request.
I had complete access to unlisted telephone listings during an emergency event.
There are certain provisions in federal law that overide the intentions of private listings during an emergency for the purpose of providing public safety.
These public safety activities and provisions are governed by the National Emergency Number Association or (NENA)
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Message origination/delivery software
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. It was one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done.
----
You bet!
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RE: Message origination/delivery software
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by KC8VWM on October 14, 2005
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A highly specialized team of communication experts using the very latest technologies who can go in and get the job done!
I'm in!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0IU on October 15, 2005
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The following is an excerpt from a column by John C. Dvorak in Nov 8, 2005 issue of PC Magazine.
" Two weeks after Hurricane Katrina, it was reported that over 100 Internet networks were still down in Louisiana, as well as another dozen elsewhere that had been in the path of the hurricane. So much for the notion that the Web is impossible to kill. Hard to have an Internet with no power! WiMAX and other solutions are useless, too, though I suppose a generator would be useful for WiMAX. Whatever the case, the most overlooked participants in the Katrina relief effort were the ham radio folks, who were doing whatever they could as ad hoc emergency dispatchers, creating their own network within the system. These dedicated persons pride themselves on their ability to do worldwide communications under adverse conditions, and the ARRL and its members, as well as others, were a big part of the aid effort. Of course, since amateur radio is anything but trendy in today's Xbox, gene-splicing world, there was zero coverage of its contribution in the mainstream press, and these people are not the world's greatest self-promoters. At least some of us are paying attention. Good Work, guys! Bush should be giving medals to you all. "
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 15, 2005
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I don't mean to rain on everyones parade but most of what you all are talking about when it comes to computer networks and messaging software just doesn't require ham's.
If I was the Red Cross and Salvation Army during my review of this years hurricanes, I would be making plans for doing exactly what you are talking about. There are a number of items off the shelf from Best Buy etc. that could be used to set up a WIFI or Wimax (when available) wireless networks. I would be investigating satellite internet connections too. They have those available now that can work while your mobile and the antenna is aligned continously and automatically. Those that work only when your stationary are also aligned automatically and are are vastly cheaper. Heck, if I was DirecWay I would 'give' away 2 or 3 hundred accounts for the ability to place advertising on Red Cross vehicles and with the stipulation that they only be used from designated shelters or mobile vans during a declared emergency in order to limit their ongoing usage. Go look up DirecWay and follow the links to RV's, marine, and mobile installations.
These organizations could use their own volunteers located anywhere in the US or even overseas to either forward messages by email or via telephone. Why bother with hams that are out of their control and probably more unreliable?
I guess what I'm saying is that when you start dealing with computers, wireless networks, and internet, there is a vast community of people to draw from that is much, much bigger than the ham population. Being a ham won't bring anything to the table and in a lot of cases it will p**s off a number of them. If you read some of the miriad sites they don't like the fact that hams can and have had them shut down because of interference!
Heck, there are already thousands of kids doing exactly the same thing as CBer's only with wireless devices. Jacking up the power output, modifying frequencies, using very high gain antennas and basically anything to violate the original Part 15 restrictions, i.e. more power wins. My guess is that the FCC will eventually have to defacto declare the current wireless frequencies "open" much like they have the CB freq's. They will then take more of our freq's for licensed wireless stations used by businesses and legitimate home use. Just take a look at
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/modify.html
to see a smattering of what is going on.
To my way of thinking we would be better off refining what we can do that others can''t!
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 15, 2005
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LYK...
A common view amongst hams. The "Only hams can do this" notion is not productive. Couple the common WiFi routers available for minimal money from just about any vendor, with a reliable link back to civilization, and you have a powerful tool in the hands of EM personnel--a God send to those displaced by the catastrophe.
Providing reliable links using common equipment can be done by just about any 12 year old techno-geek. So where are the techno-geeks when you need them? Hams have infrastructure, organization, sweat labor, and are ready and willing to step up to the plate. Our ranks are filled with techno-geeks. Our ranks are filled with caring, honest, and reliable people. What is desperately needed is leadership. The ARRL has ignored NTS, and the rest of the field organization, to the point where it has atrophied into being virtually unrecognizable by even our own people. Leadership is the key.
Suitable infrastructure needs to be built. And leaders need to come forward with the skill-set to make it happen. LYK, you are absolutely right. We don't need to be hams to help. Be we certainly can be hams to make a big difference in the next event. I am a believer that "if we build it, they (the agencies) will come along for the ride." Sitting back and waiting for the ARRL to provide the leadership is wishful thinking. Any group could do this. Successful demonstration of the system would likely receive a hearty endorsement from the ARRL, and the cover of QST to boot.
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 15, 2005
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One point that is being totally overlooked by the naysayers in this thread is as hams operating such a network, we have the ability to run higher power levels & higher gain antennas LEGALLY.
Unlike HSMM, which seeks to crash entire neighborhoods everyday (making many new 'friends' of amateur radio), responding to an affected area with an 802.11x system would not have any networks to crash. This is the only case where I could advocate use of Part 97 power levels because of the application. Otherwise, if you need an amplifier on 802.11, you don't have a clue of what you are doing & should stay off of the band.
Our abilities to design coverage utilizing antenna, power & height parameters would allow us to outperform many of the non-ham systems.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by K8NQC on October 15, 2005
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Before retirement I was an Engineering Manager for many years. I hired a lot of young people right out of school. I always had to teach them that no matter how many technical things they learned, their success in the profession would in time be judged primarily by the dicipline they showed and adherence to a sound engineering process.
The same is true of the respect we will have as amateurs in the communication field. In our preparation for those times we may be called upon to handle important traffic, the content is not what is important. It is learning to handle traffic in a diciplined way so that reliability of content is never in question. It is maintaining a two-way path to get clarrification when needed or to give feedback. Sometimes undiciplined communications may be helpful and we must all be prepared to deal with that. Our core systems must be rock solid if they are to get the respect that we all want in our communications function.
The NTS has always been the training ground for such diciplined communications. The system should always be open to learning from experience and making needed changes. However, until something better comes along it retains its position as the foundation of dependable amateur radio message handling reliability.
Thanks to all those who make it work. They give much. I handled several messages related to the recent disasters. I did not use the NTS but applied the dicipline I learned there long ago to assure that the messages were properly delivered. 73
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 15, 2005
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To K4RAF
I don't have a problem mixing part 97 and part 15. If it gets the job done, use a soup-can-and-string for all I care.
The reference I made to WiFi was assuming using simple routers to orient different locations for laptops in a central area like the NO Stadium. Inside a large arena, a local area network using 802.11G would be excellent. Cheap, effective, and virtually silent. Signals routed to a central server would then be shipped via HF/VHF/UHF to outside the devastation and shipped on through the internet for final delivery or further processing. A simple DSL connection at a nearby Motel may be more than adequate for a good sized pipe back to the stadium. In this application, I see an effective use of part 15 and 97 simultaneously. A decent directional VHF antenna on the roof of the stadium should be able to provide a 24/7 link out to 80 miles or better.
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 15, 2005
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"I don't have a problem mixing part 97 and part 15. If it gets the job done..."
We need more of this type of open minded thinking. Indeed, a DSL connection was within range of the dome. No doubt about it.
Silent & efficient indeed...
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 15, 2005
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>> Oh, but that's not why it's a red herring. It's a
>> red herring because the same people who don't know
>> grandma's phone number or email address aren't
>> going to know her physical address either.
> Yep, most of those 30-40,000 people at the Dome and
> the Convention Center had their PDA's, cell phones,
> and phone books with them!
So, Tim, is there any part of this conversation you _do_ understand?
The point you seem to think is so funny is that people who can't remember an email addresso or phone number are no more likely to remember a physical address.
Ah, of course! You don't _want_ to understand that, as it undermines your whole claim in this thread.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 15, 2005
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> People at the end of the message chain can be easy
> to locate in most instances.
Maybe forty years ago. Intense interest in privacy has changed that.
> The victim only needs to supply the attending ham
> operator with a first and last name, a state, and a
> city or town.
Not nearly sufficient if the person being looked for lives in any sort of large urban or suburban area.
> A ham could verify and look up the intended
> destination of the victims H&W message. A station
> on the net outside the disaster zone uses an
> internet connection, and a yellow pages website to
> retrieve the information.
Welcome to the 1950s.
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RE: Message origination/delivery software
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by AE6IP on October 15, 2005
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> The "help" that is immediately needed is people
> with real experience with refugee oriented
> emergencies. Katrina was unique. Will it ever
> happen again? Who knows.
Somewhere in the world, it is happening, every day. If you want to find out how disaster communications is done in a refugee setting, check with the WHO. They have an amazing amount of experience in this area, and they have documented it.
Medicins sans Frontiers also has a good deal of experience with refugee logistics, but I don't know if they've had the opportunity to document it.
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RE: Message origination/delivery software
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by AE6IP on October 15, 2005
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> Anybody motivated to embrace the challenge?
It's not a very difficult problem, technically, as long as you don't make the mistake of trying to make the system too complex or too general.
If you want to design a system that will run on random laptops of any vintage from win/95 through XP + all the bsd clones and Linux distros, forget about it.
If you want to design a system where you set a few reasonable requirements: modern laptop with built-in wifi; XP or a bsd/linux distro that understands roaming wifi and is properly configured to deal with it; and a browser; i'm in.
Design is pretty straight forward. You need an appropriate number of WAPs, properly configured -- first part of the implementation is an instruction sheet for the WAPS.
You need either cat5 or repeater connections between the WAPS. second part of the implementation is a guideline for setting up a WAP network.
You need a couple of serious servers to handle dhcp, http, email spooling and a few other things. These are your gateway servers. -- third part of the implementation is a guideline for setting them up.
You need a bit of web software to run on the gateway servers that is backed up by an interface to the spooling software. -- fourth part of the implementation is this software
You need an interface on the gateway servers to the mechanisms you're going to use to bridge out of the area -- this is where the flexibility has to be.
You need a way of getting power out to the laptops and waps.
Alternately, and much simpler, you put all of this in one place, have the laptops on a wired net skip the waps, and simplify the power distribution problem.
Laptops fire up a web browser that goes to the web site with the form. People fill out the form, hit send, and they're done. Backend converts the form into email, if they've given a destination address, or into an outbound message to send through the net and queues it up. queue software gateways over whatever coms you have to systems outside the area. Email is just smtp. Message handling probably gets wrapped in smtp and sent on.
Make the first one VERY simple. When it works, add clever features. Do not over design the first one or you'll never get it built.
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by WG4RAY on October 16, 2005
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I'm not saying there isn't a need for good, solid emergency traffic communications. But go to the ARRL web site, get the documents, read what the system is designed to do. The document dates back to 1979 - and the communications model they are using is the pre-internet phone system. When I think of all the models they might use for such a system...that's not what I'd pick these days. Or 10 years ago. Or 20.
I've received precisely ONE message from the NTS over my ham career. It was a "welcome to ham radio" message. What was amusing was that the call was made to my home phone (in Atlanta), which was forwarded to my cell phone, which was with me in a hotel room in New Jersey. And the guy on the other end was having trouble understanding why I wasn't all agog that I'd received a phone message that had been passed as a radio message.
Someone was mentioning a cable cut with a backhoe. I've been through several over the years....and the time to fix them is going down. It is a day or so interruption these days. And when was the last time you heard of someone passing traffic over NTS for a cable cut? The networking companies and phone companies simply route around the bad areas. You didn't hear about having trouble making east/west phone calls, or sending data from points outside the hurricane area - they simply route around those areas.
The NTS was designed for "need to trace if it got through" communications - and fails at that. For most activity today, an operator receiving a "can you let my family know I'm ok" message can accomplish the procedure almost instantaneously for no additional monthly cost via cell phone or flat rate long distance. THere's no NEED for a "transcontinental corp" to accept the message and pass it on to the local destination.
The NTS is overly complex, badly designed in the current environment, and seriously oriented to preserving messages learned in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. It needs serious re-thinking, and then serious revision.
Stan
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 16, 2005
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<<AE6IP>>
<<Laptops fire up a web browser that goes to the web site with the form. People fill out the form, hit send, and they're done. Backend converts the form into email, if they've given a destination address, or into an outbound message to send through the net and queues it up. queue software gateways over whatever coms you have to systems outside the area. Email is just smtp. Message handling probably gets wrapped in smtp and sent on.>>
Ok, you've described a very nice capability on the originating end but you haven't completed the message handling SYSTEM. Assuming as you do, that "Backend converts the form into email, if they've given a destination address" these messages don't need any further attention. Then what do you do with those that do need further handling?
You need to describe in detail the message handling process when non-email messages are involved. How are these handled and delivered, by whom, thru what process? You state "gateways over whatever coms you have to systems outside the area". What systems? Email systems? Whose email systems? What/whose addresses? You leave a lot hanging here.
The NTS is a complete system from origination to destination. Whatever replaces it must be a complete system too.
Jim
WA0LYK
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by WA0LYK on October 16, 2005
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<<WG4RAY>>
<<The NTS is overly complex, badly designed in the current environment, and seriously oriented to preserving messages learned in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. It needs serious re-thinking, and then serious revision.>>
You make some serious critisms for someone who probably has never dealt with message handling on the HF bands in the NTS system. Do you participate in section, regional, or area HF nets? Do you understand the various propagation problems of HF and have you dealt with them?
Do you think someone perverse set up the schedules and frequencies just to make it complex and badly designed? Please let us know why you think as you do!
Here is my observation. The NTS system was designed taking into account the vagaries of propagation, band noise, operator availability, precise routing requirements, and a myriad of other things. A complete SYSTEM to replace it must also take into account some of these very same things.
So far I haven't seen a COMPLETE description of anything to replace the ENTIRE NTS system. Most folks want to concentrate on the origination point and how to use new technology. No one has described a complete system, in detail, all the way to the delivery point other than for messages having an email address. This means describing in detail who, what, where, and how non-email messages will be handled.
All the software being described would be better used in an NGO organization like the Red Cross. Basic messages could be solicited during initial processing by their personnel. Non-email messages could be routed to a Red Cross admin account in the nearest city to the addressee. They have probably 10 times or more the number of volunteers as compared to active hams for handling the delivery of these types of messages. Wouldn't this better serve those affected by disaster, which after all is the ultimate purpose?
Please don't critize something that still works unless you can present actual facts as to why it is complex and worse, badly designed. You would get much more respect if you present actual details describing why you believe this rather than broad generalizations!
Jim
WA0LYK
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB9X on October 16, 2005
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>> WA0LYK: The NTS is a complete system from origination to destination. Whatever replaces it must be a complete system too.
The consensus seems to be that today’s need is a system to get health-and-welfare traffic out of the disaster area, just far enough to get to a location where the existing telephone/email infrastructure is normal. At that point, you can use “normal” facilities for delivering the message – if it contains an email address it hops on the Internet, if it contains a telephone number it hops on the voice telephone system, and if none of the above then you do your best to look up the recipient using Internet-based tools.
The difference between this model and today’s NTS model is that NTS is consumed with getting the message to a location close to the recipient so that it can be delivered using a local telephone call. This model made sense until the general availability of fixed-rate long-distance service. These days, I don’t see any advantage to getting the message close to its geographic destination before delivering it. The only possible advantage would be if the receiving station was going to personally deliver the traffic, and that doesn’t happen in the real world.
If I can pick up a telephone and, at no incremental cost to me, deliver a message to someone thousands of miles from me, where is the value added by today’s NTS in a disaster scenario?
As for getting the traffic out of the disaster area, I have to admit that I’m a bit amused by all the discussion I see about networked laptops, specialized software, and whizbang technology. Yes, it would work. But what are the chances of it ever actually being given a chance to work? When there’s an actual disaster, you use the people and equipment that is at hand. It’s much more likely that you’ll end up with a group of hams that have traditional radio equipment and know how to use it. It makes more sense to me to focus on trying to get people trained in traditional emergency-communications skills, especially since the number of people who learn these skills in NTS will continue to decline. ARES needs to take up the slack.
And all of this discussion is rendered completely moot if ARRL cannot negotiate into their agreements with the NGOs the fact that amateur radio has a part in the disaster scenario. You can have the best plans, the best people, and the best equipment . . . and if you can’t get past security at the door of the shelter, it’s of no use to anyone.
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by KB9X on October 16, 2005
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>> WA0LYK: So far I haven't seen a COMPLETE description of anything to replace the ENTIRE NTS system.
Here you go: Pick up the telephone. Four words. Replaces the entire NTS system.
The problem with NTS is not its design. It’s a wonderful design, and it continues to work today.
The problem is that it solves a problem that no longer exists. The entire goal of NTS is to move traffic to its final destination so that it can be delivered by a local ham.
Why?
If your answer is that the telephone system isn’t working, then my response is that any disaster that is widespread enough to knock out the telephone system will effectively render NTS nonfunctional. Yes, there will be a few hams on the air using emergency power, but not enough to even begin to man the section/region/area/TCC structure of NTS.
As emotionally difficult as it is for me to admit it, the only reasons I see for NTS to exist are social (meeting hams with a shared interest) and training in basic communication skills. Problem is, with no day-to-day traffic to keep things interesting, there will be no new recruits and even the seasoned participants will drift away. And when the general public can pick up a telephone and call Aunt Mary to wish her Happy Birthday, there’s not going to be any routine traffic.
In this entire thread, no one has suggested an answer to this basic issue – what’s going to keep NTS going on a day-to-day basis? I know that there are a lot of hams out there who get a thrill out of checking into a dead net, day after day, but I don’t think there are enough of them to keep NTS going.
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KG4YJR on October 16, 2005
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Did anyone else but me notice that all the news networks had live, continuous coverage, voice, video and images throughout the entire event and beyond? In the shelters, in the neighborhoods. There were numerous people that finally were rescued by calling into a nationally broadcast show saying that they were stuck in their homes with dying relatives and the networks broadcast that information worldwide. One elderly woman that was in her 70s, taking care of her mother in her 90's said they'd been waiting for over five days to be rescued but after a call into O'Reilly she finally got help within hours.
73
Dave
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by WA0LYK on October 16, 2005
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<<KB9X>>
<<>> WA0LYK: The NTS is a complete system from origination to destination. Whatever replaces it must be a complete system too.>>
<<The difference between this model and today�s NTS model is that NTS is consumed with getting the message to a location close to the recipient so that it can be delivered using a local telephone call. ..... The only possible advantage would be if the receiving station was going to personally deliver the traffic, and that doesn�t happen in the real world. >>
Actually personal delivery can and does work in the real world. The fact it doesn't isn't the fault of NTS! If this was more emphasized and made a priority for hams, meaningful messages would and could be delivered this way. All you need to do is add the requirement to H&W that personal delivery is expected. Would I do this for practice messages or run of the mill messages, maybe not.
I have personally delivered two messages in the last two years. By going to the address of the first I was able to find the last name of the daughter of the person who owned the house and had moved to a nursing home. The other was to someone with an unusual last name and I knew the location of a grocery store/deli of that name (Porubski was unique enough that I figured someone there might know some info) and went there to find someone might who might know the lady the message was sent to. The lady did own the business but had retired and moved in with her daughter who is now running the place. Found out I knew her daughter but only by her married name! These were both messages from/to WWII vets and I felt it was worthwhile to do. The originators were both hams but even if they weren't it would not have changed what I did. I would hope H&W from a disaster area would receive the same diligence by all hams!
I have the advantage of living in a fairly small town, Topeka, Kansas. It isn't a city of millions so may be easier to do this kind of delivery. I also expect that this could be the case for a large number of H&W messages.
It is this kind of 'service' that also needs to be considered in any kind of replacement system. Centralized telephone banks won't let it happen!
Jim
WA0LYK
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by N5YPJ on October 16, 2005
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KA1EEC pretty much summed up my thoughts on this subject.
Relaying messages via HF voice circuits still has it's place albeit under most dire circumstances ie when one is forced to operate mobile at a disaster scene with limited equipment.
How many people know that we hams exist ansd what we are capable of nowadays?
Digital communications are our future in supplementing communications in emergency situations.
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by WA0LYK on October 16, 2005
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<<N5YPJ>>
<<KA1EEC pretty much summed up my thoughts on this subject.>>
<<Relaying messages via HF voice circuits still has it's place albeit under most dire circumstances ie when one is forced to operate mobile at a disaster scene with limited equipment.>>
<<How many people know that we hams exist ansd what we are capable of nowadays?>>
<<Digital communications are our future in supplementing communications in emergency situations.>>
KA1EEC basically advocated email or nothing. Is that your idea also? Fold up the NTS system. Just tell folks wanting to notify relatives who may not use email, or who can't remember their relatives email address "sorry, hams don't deliver non-email or non-emergency agency messages anymore!"
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 16, 2005
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> You need to describe in detail the message handling
> process when non-email messages are involved. How
> are these handled and delivered, by whom, thru what
> process?
Easy answer: They go to a web site outside the area where they're available to a search engine. People who care to find out about their relatives search that web site for messages.
> You state "gateways over whatever coms you have to
> systems outside the area". What systems?
servers for the above web site. If this were my project, I'd collaborate with the red cross to set them up. a few servers, mirroring each other, in a small number of locations around the US, in colos, would be perfect.
> Email systems? Whose email systems? What/whose
> addresses? You leave a lot hanging here.
"as an exercise for the reader".
but no, not that much. Every thing I've described is pretty ordinary routine stuff in distributed computing and takes maximum advantage of the existing infrastructure. Some of it was even applied already in NOLA shortly after Katrina. Most of it could be set up by anyone who has even a moderately complex home network. It could all be done with available open source software.
The only role for hams as hams, though, would be the link between the on-site server and the unimpaired part of the internet in the rare occassion when telecom wasn't available.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 16, 2005
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Did anyone else but me notice that all the news networks had live, continuous coverage, voice, video and images throughout the entire event and beyond?
-----
Uh, yeah I believe I said something like:
"How many times have you heard agencies like FEMA or other EMA agencies say, "I heard more about whats going on here from CNN or FOX news than I heard from our own chain of command?"
So, yes. I noticed this was happening as well. I think they even cooridnated thier own website to put people at the shelters in touch with family.
Hams didn't have any such website setup though. It seems we were obviously way too busy for such simple methods of doing things.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 16, 2005
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Well it looks like a few hams have been reading this message thread and already have taken steps to change how things are done:
"RemComm's software allows emergency workers to record critical information from a disaster scene on battery-operated laptop computers and transmit it via advanced radio to emergency centers."
News Source:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05287/588295.stm
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 16, 2005
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***********
ae6ip:
So, Tim, is there any part of this conversation you _do_ understand?
The point you seem to think is so funny is that people who can't remember an email addresso or phone number are no more likely to remember a physical address.
Ah, of course! You don't _want_ to understand that, as it undermines your whole claim in this thread.
*********************
ROFL!!! Yep, people nowadays are more likely to remember Uncle Joe's email address than his physical address ---- in YOUR dreams, perhaps.
As long as Uncle Joe is in the phone book, you don't need to remember his whole address, only a streeet name and city.
NOBODY I know uses email addresses or even telephone numbers anymore. You either have them in your address book by name, use the reply icon, or you have them in your cell phone by name (assuming you have caller id and name -- most people do). So most people I know would be totally lost without their computer or cellphone for getting an email through or for making a call.
You *STILL* need to know the physical address to drive there or get a letter delivered. That's why most people still remember physical addresses.
ae6ip---The "I may live in my own little world but at least everyone knows me here" man.
tim ab0wr
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by AB0WR on October 16, 2005
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****************
kc8vwm:
Tim, I have a former 15 year EMS background and I would be glad to provide you with my credentials on request.
I had complete access to unlisted telephone listings during an emergency event.
There are certain provisions in federal law that overide the intentions of private listings during an emergency for the purpose of providing public safety.
These public safety activities and provisions are governed by the National Emergency Number Association or (NENA)
*******************
Well, let me hit you with another one.
You would be amazed at the number of people today who have neither a listed or unlisted number. They have a cell phone as their only phone. I see this every day at the school I work at when we are trying to get ahold of a parent for some reason. The number of people doing this get larger every year.
As this trend gets bigger and bigger both the White Page web sites and the local telephone books are going to become more and more problematic for finding someones telephone number for a message delivery.
An Amateur Radio operator at the destination location, on the other hand, *ALWAYS* has the option of physical delivery to an address. *NONE* of the served agencies are going to be able to match that in the future.
Something to think about.
(Oh, btw, coordinating an agreeement with the local telephone companies on retrieval of unlisted numbers WOULD be a good thing to have set up ahead of time. I wonder just how many people do have? Trying to do it AFTER an emergency happens is too late.)
tim ab0wr
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by KG4YJR on October 16, 2005
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>>As long as Uncle Joe is in the phone book, you don't need to remember his whole address, only a streeet name and city.<<
It's even easier than that. One of my co-workers proved that just using google with the person's name and city and gets the phone number and address quicker than me using anywho.com or any other online directory. Without the pop-ups too.
It's so easy now that jealous husbands that get wrong numbers calling from another man or see a man's name on the caller ID, will look up their address, go to their house and beat somebody up because they think that they are fooling around with their wives.
Funny, sad, but true.
73
Dave
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 16, 2005
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*******************
The NTS was designed for "need to trace if it got through" communications - and fails at that. For most activity today, an operator receiving a "can you let my family know I'm ok" message can accomplish the procedure almost instantaneously for no additional monthly cost via cell phone or flat rate long distance. THere's no NEED for a "transcontinental corp" to accept the message and pass it on to the local destination.
*******************
How many people who believe this will cover all avenues (including for the economically disadvantaged) actually work with economically disadvantaged people every day?
Please stand up and let us know. I would be very interested.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 16, 2005
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**************
kb9x:
The difference between this model and today’s NTS model is that NTS is consumed with getting the message to a location close to the recipient so that it can be delivered using a local telephone call. This model made sense until the general availability of fixed-rate long-distance service. These days, I don’t see any advantage to getting the message close to its geographic destination before delivering it. The only possible advantage would be if the receiving station was going to personally deliver the traffic, and that doesn’t happen in the real world.
*****************
Unless there is a cell phone number lookup database on the internet I am unaware of, what you describe may very well get MORE and MORE common in tomorrows world.
I see more and more people, especially in economically disadvantaged situations, moving to only cell phones for communications. No home phone and no computer. They can get text messaging over their cell phone and with the pay-ahead cell phones, they can keep from running up big bills. This minimizes their monthly cost.
What you will see is MORE distribution to local physical addresses either via Post Office or via physical runners. Using ham radio IS faster than sending Postal mail over long distances. If you have a physical address, you can deliver the message yourself to save money or put it on a postcard for the local postman to deliver.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 16, 2005
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Well, let me hit you with another one.
You would be amazed at the number of people today who have neither a listed or unlisted number. They have a cell phone as their only phone.
------
Agreed and quite true.
However, just because cell phones are not connected to your home via a wire or physical cable doesn't mean that your cell phone number or account is somehow completely anonymous.
The header on your cell phone bill is a good indication of what infomation is available to your local EMA, telephone service provider and to emergency 911 officials.
No, cell phone companies don't have a white page directory delivery service to the general pubic's front door.
However, what they DO have is a well maintained database of "unpublished" not "unlisted" directory of thier subscribers and if any government officials REALLY wanted to get a hold of you, you can pretty much bet they will.
Much of what you have suggested has already been researched and extensively discussed for a few years now by many EMA and emergency 911 administration officials.
There has even been discussion about the idea of using built in GPS technology to track down a specific cell phone subscriber. Can't do that with regular telephone service now can you?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 16, 2005
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*********************
However, just because cell phones are not connected to your home via a wire or physical cable doesn't mean that your cell phone number or account is somehow completely anonymous.
The header on your cell phone bill is a good indication of what infomation is available to your local EMA, telephone service provider and to emergency 911 officials.
No, cell phone companies don't have a white page directory delivery service to the general pubic's front door.
However, what they DO have is a well maintained database of "unpublished" not "unlisted" directory of thier subscribers and if any government officials REALLY wanted to get a hold of you, you can pretty much bet they will.
Much of what you have suggested has already been researched and extensively discussed for a few years now by many EMA and emergency 911 administration officials.
There has even been discussion about the idea of using built in GPS technology to track down a specific cell phone subscriber. Can't do that with regular telephone service now can you?
*******************
I worked for a major RBOC for 29 years. I know what is in their databases. The problem is how an agency delivering health and welfare messages will get access to those databases. The cellular companies keep that data pretty secure. It's possible you could work an arrangement with the cellular carriers where you could give them a list of addresses and have them give you back a list of telephone numbers billed to that address but that relationship is going to have to be set up well ahead of time, for both security vetting and for personnel-time/access development. There will probably have to even be non-disclosure agreements set up.
Government agencies, EMA, and 911 bureaus getting access to this information for an official action is usually very limited in scope (i.e. one or two address at most) and carries the weight of the law behind it. It just isn't the same thing with an NGO trying to deliver H&W messages.
You don't need GPS to track down a cell phone user, not unless you want to get close enough to pick their pocket. Just using signal strength correlation between cell towers along with some basic trig can get you pretty darn close.
For those of you advocating ARS setting up web pages with lists of messages from disaster victims, that's not a bad idea. But it is not anywhere close to all-inclusive. There are still huge chunks of population in this country, especially involving the elderly and the poor, who don't have internet access, are not computer literate, and don't frequent places where they can easily access this information. We, as the ARS, do not want to be put in a position of being accused of being unknowing and uncaring of big chunks of population in this country. We need to have a system that will have the potential of being able to reach out and touch *anyone and everyone*. THAT system can then be supplemented with more advanced options.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 16, 2005
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"...transmit it via advanced radio"
What's this?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 16, 2005
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> You *STILL* need to know the physical address to
> drive there or get a letter delivered. That's why
> most people still remember physical addresses.
You're not really in possesion of a clue, are you Tim?
I did a quick survey. No one I know could recall their parents' home address, or if they had children no longer at home, their childrens'. Most of them could tell me how to drive to those places without any street address at all. Few of them had sent anything to those addresses via mail or other physical means in the past five years.
All of them, however, had cell phones with them that had all those addresses, as well as email addressess and phone numbers.
In your little world, it may still by Mayberry in 1960, but in the real world, most US adults have cell phones, most of them always have them, and most of them use them as their personal phone/address book.
On the other hand, few people write letters anymore, and almost no one remembers other people's addresses.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 16, 2005
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> An Amateur Radio operator at the destination
> location, on the other hand, *ALWAYS* has the
> option of physical delivery to an address.
Unless, of course, they have no way of obtaining that address. Which, as you yourself have conceded is becoming more and more likely.
> *NONE* of the served agencies are going to be able
> to match that in the future.
Police around here still make house calls when they have bad news to deliver. Sorry they're not up to that in your world.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 16, 2005
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> It's even easier than that. One of my co-workers
> proved that just using google with the person's
> name and city and gets the phone number and address
> quicker than me using anywho.com or any other
> online directory.
It can be. It is becoming rarer and rarer.
A lot of people are going unlisted and registering their phones with the phone company in ways that make it difficult to track the phone to the physical address. This is a growing trend; especially in urban areas, and especially with cell phones.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 16, 2005
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> The header on your cell phone bill is a good
> indication of what infomation is available to your
> local EMA, telephone service provider and to
> emergency 911 officials.
Mine gives the name and address of my wife's ex bosses' last business location before he moved on.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 16, 2005
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************
ae6ip:
did a quick survey. No one I know could recall their parents' home address, or if they had children no longer at home, their childrens'. Most of them could tell me how to drive to those places without any street address at all. Few of them had sent anything to those addresses via mail or other physical means in the past five years.
***************
ROFLMAO!!!
Thank goodness none of these people got lost as a kid! They wouldn't have been able to tell the nice policeman where they live!!!
ROFL!!!
***************
ae6ip:
All of them, however, had cell phones with them that had all those addresses, as well as email addressess and phone numbers.
In your little world, it may still by Mayberry in 1960, but in the real world, most US adults have cell phones, most of them always have them, and most of them use them as their personal phone/address book.
On the other hand, few people write letters anymore, and almost no one remembers other people's addresses.
**************
(picture of someone gently slapping a sleeping Marty) Wake UUuuuuppppp, Marty!
How many of those 30-40,000 people in the Superdome and Convention Center had cell phones Marty? Esp after wading through chest deep water to get there!
ae6ip---The "I may live in my own little world but at least everyone knows me here" man.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WG4RAY on October 16, 2005
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WA0LYK wrote: You make some serious critisms for someone who probably has never dealt with message handling on the HF bands in the NTS system. Do you participate in section, regional, or area HF nets? Do you understand the various propagation problems of HF and have you dealt with them?
Do you think someone perverse set up the schedules and frequencies just to make it complex and badly designed? Please let us know why you think as you do!
My response:
No, my background includes designing voice and data communications systems that are fault tolerant - making sure traffic gets through regardless of both single points of failure and widespread outages.
The NTS is designed with single points of failure built in. It is heavily influenced by old style traffic processing that has been obsolete for years.
You contend that "A complete SYSTEM to replace it must also take into account some of these very same things." And gee, I was thinking that a much more practical starting point would be a needs analysis, since the evidence shows that the system is being minimally used, if at all, and doesn't seem to be meeting the needs of any of the target audiences except those that like to run nets.
Yes, there are lessons to be learned - but there are big questions to be answered, and the very first is what problems actually need to be solved? The NTS, as it currently stands, is a solution in search of a question.
Stan
WG4RAY
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 16, 2005
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Steve-KB9X wrote:
"As for getting the traffic out of the disaster area, I have to admit that I’m a bit amused by all the discussion I see about networked laptops, specialized software, and whizbang technology. Yes, it would work. But what are the chances of it ever actually being given a chance to work? When there’s an actual disaster, you use the people and equipment that is at hand."
Amen brother Steve! Now imagine a complete front-end / back-end software package, written under a GNU license, and on EVERY ACTIVE HAM's LAPTOP! Suppose these same active hams have actually participated in a SET, organized by the local Section Manager, that is designed for the express purpose of having 50% of the active hams able to pass a decent throughput of traffic--from any disaster, to anywhere in the world. The so-called "specialized software, and whizbang technology" would become as commonplace as your web browser if you do it correctly. The person running the software would not have to understand the complexities of the 'guts' of the software, only to know how to establish links, and then what button to push to make the computer take the messages to the next level.
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 16, 2005
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Steve-KB9X wrote:
"As emotionally difficult as it is for me to admit it, the only reasons I see for NTS to exist are social (meeting hams with a shared interest) and training in basic communication skills. Problem is, with no day-to-day traffic to keep things interesting, there will be no new recruits and even the seasoned participants will drift away. And when the general public can pick up a telephone and call Aunt Mary to wish her Happy Birthday, there’s not going to be any routine traffic."
Well Steve, here you go. A ton of traffic...
Suppose the front end/back end software actually exists, and 50% of the active hams have it installed and running on their computers. Using a practice SET, designed for the express purpose of moving TONS of traffic, the various sections start delivering a message to a central location. Initiate true communications. Pass it through HF/VHF/UHF/TELEPHONE/INTERNET/CANANDSTRING/PONYEXPRESS. Said communications produces a response from the central location that requires a continuted dialogue. Messages have to be returned. Make it a contest of sorts. The section that passes the most messages with the most active stations wins. At the end of the day, hand deliver at 18" thick printout to Dick Cheney explaining that hams just completed the following communications links from 98% of counties in all 50 states and all canadian provinces.
Keep it interesting by changing the SET. Only emergency power. Only 24 hours notice. Complex messages (like binary code). You would have a new group of hams develop interesting and useful activity.
Just a thought. This has been discussed before. BUT NOBODY IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 16, 2005
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N5YPJ wrote:
"Relaying messages via HF voice circuits still has it's place albeit under most dire circumstances ie when one is forced to operate mobile at a disaster scene with limited equipment. "
Amen!
What is missing in the grand scheme of things is a grand scheme. Point-to-point, as in ARES type local disasters has it's place. No getting around that. What we are missing is the ability to move LOTS of stuff. We have the bandwidth and the skill to do it but have chosen not to develop the skill set and roll it out into the hands of capable people.
I saw one post from Steve-KB9X about people that showed up for Katrina with HF gear in hand, only to find out that they needed point-to-point at that moment. In a huff, they left the scene. Why? "I didn't prepare for that event. So I'm going home..."
Being prepared is 98% success. We are not prepared for the big events...PERIOD! And that's where we are supposed to shine. We gotta get with the program folks. Plain and simple!
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 16, 2005
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AB0WR wrote:
"NOBODY I know uses email addresses or even telephone numbers anymore. You either have them in your address book by name, use the reply icon, or you have them in your cell phone by name (assuming you have caller id and name -- most people do). So most people I know would be totally lost without their computer or cellphone for getting an email through or for making a call. "
You are absolutely correct sir. Which is why we need a system to handle the odd-ball stuff too. And a guy in Idaho can help. If 98% of the traffic can get passed without handling, it's done--gone--delivered--a successful circuit of communication is complete. So the 2% gets passed to a small army of volunteers located all over the place to assist. No phone number, but a city and general location and a name? If the message is important, like "can I come and stay with you for a few weeks?" then somebody gets on the phone and does some detective work. PROBLEM SOLVING TEAMS will do the deed. And in the process you bring people into the event that can make a difference. Do they need to be hams? Nope! But the hams can get them the message to deal with it!
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 16, 2005
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AE6IP wrote:
"...in the real world, most US adults have cell phones, most of them always have them, and most of them use them as their personal phone/address book."
True!
This is why I advocated a special 'twist' to the refugee situation. When Katrina hits NO again, the levies will break. Duh! And when they do, the people will flock to Uncle begging for a meal. Duh! And when they do, Uncle will be expected to find them a new home, better than that tar paper shack they used to live in. Duh! Meanwhile, the rest of the planet will put a gun to Uncle's head and make him do it. Duh! It's the grand social contract we have in America and elsewhere. The the bureaucrats in Washington will be peeing all over one another in an attempt to spend $260,000,000,000 of our money to do it. Sorry, I'm venting. But at $260,000 per man/women/child, it's a bit of a bite if you know what I mean.
So, when the advance teams are air lifted into the arena with their whiz-bang gadgetry, the laptops should capture as much information as can be obtained about the individuals. Assign them an address. Pipe it back to civilization. Email can be funneled to that new address, and delivered as appropriate. When they change locations (like to Houston), keep track of that too.
Now we're talking service. The agencies would flock to such a system. If you build it, they will come!
Ford-N0FP
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by N0FP on October 16, 2005
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"The future of the National Traffic System"
What is the future? The future is here. Read the papers and watch CNN. Bad stuff happens to good people all the time. Being prepared to meet the challenge of bad things happening is where it's at.
A local mess is handled by the locals. EM personnel (bless their hearts) dig in and drag the bodies away. No need for make-shift but critical comms in this case. But watch a Rhode Island sized mass of iron/nickle/ice (i.e. a meteor on steroids) hits the Atlantic about 800-2500 miles off-shore, and the first 100 miles in from the eastern seaboard will be gone. Wait for some diaper head to lob a nuke. Some other diaper head to lob a make-shift bomb that unleashes some nasty biohazard. The earthquake that is supposed to drop CA into the drink may actually happen. Another Katrina. Do you suppose there will be need for emergency comms? Then practice for it! There is lots of good traffic to be passed in practice for the next big one. Pass meaningful traffic and the masses will convert in droves.
Nobody has taken a leadership role in organizing the various facets of ham radio. ARES, NTS, RACES, MARS, Contesters, DXers, Internet Linked Radio enthusiasts, Repeater groups, County Hunters, Techno-dweebs, Propagation experts, political types--pull them all together for a common cause. What we need is a common denominator, a universal software package that passes traffic when the chips are down and all you have is a battery, a radio, and 100% of your wits about you. Lock arms and pull for a common result.
The cause? Pass traffic...LOTS OF IT! Practice makes perfect. Demonstrate our common abilities. Teach our fellows to do the same--only better than before.
Ford-N0FP
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 16, 2005
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> Thank goodness none of these people got lost as a
> kid! They wouldn't have been able to tell the nice
> policeman where they live!!!
This is hard for you, isn't it Tim? Lost kid needs to know his own address. Most of us know our own address. Lost kid doesn't need to know the address of the nearest relative not living with it.
The only thing your examples show is how poorly you think things through.
> How many of those 30-40,000 people in the Superdome
> and Convention Center had cell phones Marty?
If the photos I've seen are indicative, most.
> Esp after wading through chest deep water to get
> there!
Something almost no one did.
You can keep making a fool out of yourself with ROFLs, insults, and very poor examples, Tim, or you can enter the 21st century.
Your call.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 17, 2005
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> Amen brother Steve! Now imagine a complete front-
> end / back-end software package, written under a
> GNU license, and on EVERY ACTIVE HAM's LAPTOP!
The frontend would be firefox, which is already written. The back end shouldn't be on a laptop. But 99.5% of it can be had in open source already. All the written bits can be found on, say, the Ubuntu distribution.
All that's missing is a handful of lines of php.
> Suppose these same active hams have actually
> participated in a SET, organized by the local
> Section Manager, that is designed for the express
> purpose of having 50% of the active hams able to
> pass a decent throughput of traffic--from any
> disaster, to anywhere in the world.
By the time they'd gotten around to really using the stuff they would have forgotten. That's the major weakness in volunteer emergency services. Few people have the time, or interest, to put in the amount of practice it requires.
> The so-called "specialized software, and whizbang
> technology" would become as commonplace as your web
> browser if you do it correctly.
The front end would _be_ your web browser, if you do it correctly.
> The person running the software would not have to
> understand the complexities of the 'guts' of the
> software, only to know how to establish links, and
> then what button to push to make the computer take
> the messages to the next level.
Open browers. select URL from 'favorites'. Fill out form. click 'send'. all done.
There are any number of open source web-email packages that could easily be made to do this with a little custom configuration.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 17, 2005
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"How many of those 30-40,000 people in the Superdome and Convention Center had cell phones Marty? Esp after wading through chest deep water to get there!"
More than likely 95% of them. To dismiss the fact that the cell phone has taken great root in society is to deny reality, which is especially true of minority neighborhoods. These people valued what little possessions they had left & no phone means no contact with their homies from the hood. No Way!!!
I think that WG4RAY has quite a grasp on the situation. Some of us are going to attempt changing the system, while others will ride along in the same old broken wagon till it falls out from under their sorry existence. This is just ham nature, fear from the threat of change, although some of us dare to think outside of 50 year old tradition, especially when technology has all but run over the old methods!
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AA4PB on October 17, 2005
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Police around here still make house calls when they have bad news to deliver
----------------------------------------------------
I've seen the police here serve notice by taping the paper to the door of an empty apartment where the party hadn't lived for two years. The court date came and went and a bench warrent was issued for the person's arrest for failure to appear. They found the original notice still hanging on the door two months later. Don't expect the police around here to locate anyone for you unless they are driving around with a burned out tail light :-)
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The future of the National Traffic System
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by KB9X on October 17, 2005
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>> In a huff, they left the scene. Why?
As a little comic relief, allow me to relate a true story from the Katrina experience.
In Hattiesburg, our group of ham volunteers was staying at the Red Cross chapter house. That’s where the HF station and the two-meter net control station was set up. It’s a typical small-town chapter house, with limited parking.
ARRL gave us some bad information in terms of what to expect, telling us to bring HF gear and to be self-sufficient. But they gave us some good information, and one thing that they stressed was NOT to bring large recreational vehicles. There are lots of reasons for that, including limited parking.
So one night around dusk a new volunteer arrives. He’s towing a gigantic RV, which he manages to shoehorn into the parking lot, blocking a few other vehicles in the process. Then, after being warned that he should not do so, he runs an extension cord into the building to hook up electricity to his massive RV. A few minutes later all the ham equipment goes dark, and within seconds this fellow comes barging into the room complaining that he can’t use his microwave.
He lasted less than an hour in the disaster area. But I will say, if you come as a volunteer, you have the right to leave when you feel you need to leave. All I ask is that you inform the person who’s trying to coordinate things so that they know what resources they have available.
On a related note, for those of you who are designing laptop-based systems to collect outgoing traffic: Between the 22 hams in Hattiesburg, I think there were three laptops, and I doubt that any of us would have been willing to let them be used by people in shelters to originate outgoing H&W traffic. Maybe things would have been different if ARRL had said “Bring laptops” instead of “Bring HF gear, food, water, and camping supplies.” All I’m saying is that you must assume no on-site equipment, and include in the planning process bringing in everything that you need to make the system work.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4JF on October 17, 2005
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"NOBODY I know uses email addresses or even telephone numbers anymore. You either have them in your address book by name, use the reply icon, or you have them in your cell phone by name (assuming you have caller id and name -- most people do). So most people I know would be totally lost without their computer or cellphone for getting an email through or for making a call. "
Phone call, yes. But please explain how they would send an email anyway, without access to a computer.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 17, 2005
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"Open browers. select URL from 'favorites'. Fill out form. click 'send'. all done."
------
Would you believe someone has already done an online webpage version of a Radiogram already?
Have a look...
http://greatlakes.arrl.org/E_M_Gram/Index.htm
Also, how about the idea of installing electronic radiogram software on your PC like this one...?
http://www.qrz.com/download/misc/kc1qfnts.zip
I couldn't get it to work on my PC tho... ):
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by KC8VWM on October 17, 2005
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But please explain how they would send an email anyway, without access to a computer.
-----
Ok, the idea is for someone located outside the disaster zone to send the message via email. They are the one's that have internet access, not the disaster zone.
The idea is to have a ham operator at the disaster zone, whith the general public lining up at a $20 laptop terminal that is setup near the ham.
They write the text message they want to send, and the ham operator at some point sends 40- 150 messages via RTTY or whatever flavor digital mode to someone outside the disaster zone.
The messages are then forward using the internet after reaching a station located outside the disaster zone. The only radio communication exchange required is for the purpose of confirmation for sending and recieving the messages.
73
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 17, 2005
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****************
ae6ip:
This is hard for you, isn't it Tim? Lost kid needs to know his own address. Most of us know our own address. Lost kid doesn't need to know the address of the nearest relative not living with it.
The only thing your examples show is how poorly you think things through.
****************
ROFL!!
I still remember my parents address some 49 years after I learned it. So do most of the people I work with.
Yet you have to have it in an external memory device in order to remember it?
The only one not thinking things through is you, Marty.
ae6ip---The "I may live in my own little world but at least everyone knows me here" man.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 17, 2005
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*******************
k4raf:
I think that WG4RAY has quite a grasp on the situation. Some of us are going to attempt changing the system, while others will ride along in the same old broken wagon till it falls out from under their sorry existence. This is just ham nature, fear from the threat of change, although some of us dare to think outside of 50 year old tradition, especially when technology has all but run over the old methods!
*********************
WAIT A MINUTE!!!
This is nothing more than an emotional appeal masquerading as an argument.
The fact that some of us are arguing that if you are going to replace the NTS you need to have a well-thought out system is NOT showing fear of change.
It is showing a respect for the thought and effort that went into the design of the system that exists. At least as much thought and effort needs to go into the design of any replacement.
Let me throw up some kickers here that have not been discussed.
1. Having a "web form" is fine. There is a lot that goes on behind having that "web form", however.
--a. What is the program that "throws" that web form up on the screen?
--b. Is it on a centralized server? If so,
--c. What software modules are going to be running on that server to:
----i. give requests serial numbers so replies can be tracked.
----ii. store and archive requests so they can be reviewed to see which ones have been delivered, have been replied to, and which ones are hanging fire?
----iii. Since this would typically be done on a linux box with php/perl/mysql software, who is going to administer the box and the software? (it could be done on Windows but will probably cost much, much more)
----iv. who is going to do the backups so the database can be restored in case of a catastrophic failure?
----v. Who will be in charge of declaring the database corrupted and in need of restoration? How will this be communicated to the clients so they will know the downtime is coming?
--d. What security is going to be used on the server to prevent hackers from getting in and corrupting the data or hitting it with denial-of-service attacks?
----i. Since this is many times "bypassed" by getting new ip addresses, how will the system coordinate getting the new server ip address out to the myriad laptops depending on access in order to serve the customer?
----ii. If password security is going to be implemented in order to control what changes remote clients can make, who is going to set new passwords up, get them distributed to the clients, and delete old passwords when volunteers leave?
----iii. What distribution network will be used in the disaster area to distribute the passwords? Word of mouth, pre-arranged daily passwords in the hands of designated coordinators, or will they need to be pre-arranged before dispatch?
--e. If the software is NOT going to be server based then how will return messages be identified for delivery? How will that identification work to route the traffic to the appropriate destination?
--f. What method will be used to allow the receiving party to mark a message as having been received? What security will be provided for this in order to keep the "nasties" from marking messages at random? Or from returning replies at random?
----i. if you aren't going to set it up for messages to be marked as read what method will be developed for clearing out the database? Will it be done on a timed basis, on the declaration of an "in-charge" person that the emergency is over? Or will it be stored forever on the server?
----ii. If it is going to be stored forever, who is going to arrange for a long-term server to be available on the internet for that purpose? If a ham does it, it is liable to disappear when he dies or leaves ham radio, or moves, or etc.
--g. On the "wireless" network, what security is going to be provided to prevent war dialers from coopting the all the bandwidth?
----i. Will MAC address security be used? Who is going to track and implement new MAC addresses as volunteers show up and leave?
----ii. Who is going to be in charge of putting these MAC addresses in all of the wireless routers so that the laptop can be used in various locations?
----ii. If WEP/WPA security is to be used, how will this be administered in the routers? How will the password be distributed to the clients? How will changes be made and distributed should it be necessary to protect the system from compromise?
Now, you can call me an old fuddy-duddy scared of change.
Or you can take some of these questions to heart and consider that perhaps what is being proposed is not QUITE as simple and easy as it first appears.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 17, 2005
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**************
ae6ip:
Open browers. select URL from 'favorites'. Fill out form. click 'send'. all done.
There are any number of open source web-email packages that could easily be made to do this with a little custom configuration.
*******************
web-email packages are usually little stand-alone proprietary databases on each PC.
Scattering H&W messages for those in disaster relief shelters among various and sundry laptops with separate proprietary message databases is probably NOT a good idea, especially when some of those laptops could get up and leave at any time when the volunteer leaves. Even if they were permanent laptops provided by an NGO, if no backup process exists to save the messages on an external device you risk losing messages due to laptop failure.
There would be no trackability and no accountablity to those being served as to the status of their messages. That would put the ARS in the light of looking like bumbling fools unable to keep track of what is going on - which would be true since it would be a designed in flaw of the system. While I won't say it would be better to do nothing, it wouldn't be far from it.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 17, 2005
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************************
wg4ray:
The NTS is designed with single points of failure built in. It is heavily influenced by old style traffic processing that has been obsolete for years.
************************
I'm not sure where you get this from. Actually, it is NOT true at all. As WA0LYK points out, it is not obvious that you are familiar with how the NTS works.
The NTS has *multiple* parallel paths available to it for any message routing. For instance, there are at least four regular operators providing a pathway from the 10RN CW net to the Kansas Section CW net. There are at least four regular CAN TX and CAN RX liason operators between the 10RN CW net and the CAN CW net. There are fewer TCC reps between the Areas but they all have access to the Digital NTS for alternate routing when it is needed.
Some Sections and Regions may have fewer paths but I know that many have MORE paths.
The worst place for finding single points of failure is at the *local* net level -- where there should actually be the most.
**************************
wg4ray:
You contend that "A complete SYSTEM to replace it must also take into account some of these very same things." And gee, I was thinking that a much more practical starting point would be a needs analysis, since the evidence shows that the system is being minimally used, if at all, and doesn't seem to be meeting the needs of any of the target audiences except those that like to run nets.
***************************
The "needs" analysis is a requirement for ANY system, be it the existing NTS or a new replacement system. And the NTS *does* meet the need of "a" target area because there continue to be messages, and these are *non-spam* messages, pasesed into the system on a daily basis. Since October 1 I have passed 58 messages into the 10RN for various states. While not a HUGE number, it is certainly not zero.
**********************
wg4ray:
Yes, there are lessons to be learned - but there are big questions to be answered, and the very first is what problems actually need to be solved? The NTS, as it currently stands, is a solution in search of a question.
********************
I think how you view this depends on your viewpoint. There was, *and still is*, a portion of the public that the NTS can serve and serve well. We need to be willing to go out and *serve* their needs.
AE6IP to the contrary, I *know* from talking to people that were actually in New Orleans that many, many of the people at the Superdome and the Convention Center did NOT have cell phones/laptops with email address books and telephone numbers with them. We, the ARS, *missed* a big opportunity to serve these people. The NTS could have been the serving vehicle for doing this just has it has in the past.
I also know from personal experience, there are a large number of senior citizens in nursing homes and care centers who would LOVE for a ham to visit and take messages to be sent to family and friends. Again, the NTS would serve very well for delivering these. The senior citizen only has to know a name and part of an address for the message to get routed and delivered -- if you can find someone on the end to expend the effort to do so.
Once again, I fault the ARRL for the loss of focus on serving the *public* in this manner over the past 25 years. They have focused almost entirely on serving the GO's and NGO's with tactical/logistical real-time communications to the exclusion of anything and everything else. The rest of the amateur community has folowed their lead, so much so that most hams don't even *think* of the public when considering who we serve anymore - they only think of Red Cross/Salvation Army/DHS/EOC/etc.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 17, 2005
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> I still remember my parents address some 49 years
> after I learned it. So do most of the people I work
> with.
The average american moves once every five to seven years. 49 year old addresses are rarely any good.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 17, 2005
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>> Open browers. select URL from 'favorites'. Fill
>> out form. click 'send'. all done.
>> There are any number of open source web-email
>> packages that could easily be made to do this with
>> a little custom configuration.
> web-email packages are usually little stand-alone
> proprietary databases on each PC.
No, but thanks for playing. web-email packages run on the _server_ and only use the pc as their interface. The only thing that runs on the individual pcs is the browser.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 17, 2005
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> Or you can take some of these questions to heart
> and consider that perhaps what is being proposed is
> not QUITE as simple and easy as it first appears.
Nothing in your list of questions is hard. Most of it any decent IT people could answer by reflex, and the rest of it amounts to agreeing on one among a list of arbitrary choices.
It is very much as simple and easy as it first appears. Don't confuse "detailed questions" with "difficult problems"
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AE6IP on October 17, 2005
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>> The NTS is designed with single points of failure
>> built in. It is heavily influenced by old style
>> traffic processing that has been obsolete for
>> years.
> I'm not sure where you get this from. Actually, it
> is NOT true at all. As WA0LYK points out, it is not
> obvious that you are familiar with how the NTS
> works.
> The NTS has *multiple* parallel paths available to
> it for any message routing.
Unfortunately, multiple paths through a system do not guarentee that they system has no single points of failure.
Relay systems without acknowledgement are _always_ full of single points of failure, since once a message is dropped, there's no recovery. The NTS is, in practice, such a system.
SMTP is a step up, in practice, as there are many ways in which alternative paths are tried, but it is also full of single-points-of-failure.
message passing with no single-point-failures is possible, but it is extremely expensive. SMTP, in practicee has incredible reliability, given that it was designed without delivery guarentees, and so benefits from the 80/20 rule.
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 17, 2005
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*************
ae6ip:
No, but thanks for playing. web-email packages run on the _server_ and only use the pc as their interface. The only thing that runs on the individual pcs is the browser.
**************
Here's your chance to play, Marty.
Give me software titles, manufacturer names, and/or download sites for any of these. Remember, they *MUST* suit the budget of the typical amateur. Preferably they will be linux based - but Windows XP would be usable.
Can you walk the walk as well as talk the talk?
My guess is no.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 17, 2005
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Mail this to a friend!
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*************
ae6ip:
Nothing in your list of questions is hard. Most of it any decent IT people could answer by reflex, and the rest of it amounts to agreeing on one among a list of arbitrary choices.
It is very much as simple and easy as it first appears. Don't confuse "detailed questions" with "difficult problems"
*************
ROFL!!
I see. *NOTHING* is hard about any of this. YOU can't provide the answers but someone else has'em, right?
LOL!!!
Marty, usually the hardest part of a project is figuring out the right questions to ask - many times the answers are simple.
I notice that YOU have nothing to offer but glittering generalities. Why am I not surprised?
How about it, Marty? Let's see you Walk the Walk.
How would YOU handle password management? That isn't an IT question. It's a pure project management question. How would you set up a system for managing password distribution, turn-on, and turn-off? Telephone, pre-set lists, word-of-mouth? Who will have them? Who will pass them out? Who will see they get invalidated once used and no longer needed? Walk the walk, Marty. This isn't even a technical question. Amaze us, Marty.
What command structure would YOU set up for distributing WEP/WAP encryption codes? Again, not an IT question but a project management question. Please enlighten us.
How about management heirarchy for the database, Marty? Who would YOU put in charge of managing the server, coordinating backups, budgeting for long term server and data access link infrastructure? Again, not an IT question but a project management question. Can you walk the walk?
What notification process will you put in place for letting clients know of database accessibility problems, Marty? That's not an IT question. Its a project management question. Can you walk the walk?
What command structure will you put in place to manage MAC address coordination for the laptop access into the network? That's not an IT question, its a project management question. Can you walk the walk, Marty? What would YOU put in place?
How would YOU identify the messages for return addressing, Marty? That's not an IT question, that's a project IMPLMENTATION question. What creative method would YOU recommend be put in place? Can you walk the walk?
Not a single one of these is a technical computer geek question, Marty. You don't need an IT person to answer them. You can't beg off that easy.
It's obvious YOU don't even know the questions to ask, let alone to classify them as *easy* or *hard*.
But you can prove me wrong, Marty. Put together a white paper laying out how all of this can be managed. Something we can take to the DHS and Red Cross and Salvation Army and the Lousiane EOC and the Kansas Adjutant General and say Hey! Have we got a solution for you!!!
Then the computer geeks can put the technical parts together.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by AB0WR on October 17, 2005
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****************
ae6ip:
Relay systems without acknowledgement are _always_ full of single points of failure, since once a message is dropped, there's no recovery. The NTS is, in practice, such a system.
SMTP is a step up, in practice, as there are many ways in which alternative paths are tried, but it is also full of single-points-of-failure.
message passing with no single-point-failures is possible, but it is extremely expensive. SMTP, in practicee has incredible reliability, given that it was designed without delivery guarentees, and so benefits from the 80/20 rule.
****************
Again, someone who apparently knows nothing about the NTS and traffic handling, putting out incorrect information.
Go look up HXB, HXC, HXD, and HXE, Marty.
ae6ip---The "I may live in my own little world but at least everyone knows me here" man.
tim ab0wr
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by K4RAF on October 17, 2005
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"There would be no trackability and no accountablity to those being served as to the status of their messages."
Tim, what planet are you on? The tracking of messages on any server makes human tracking look scattered at best! You are starting to become delusional in trying to prove what you can't accept as being 'flawed'. Marty is spot on about the structure & scope of the project. You are clearly lost.
"That would put the ARS in the light of looking like bumbling fools unable to keep track of what is going on - which would be true since it would be a designed in flaw of the system."
You actually think that the public perception of hams is anything but bumbling? Traffic handling is like watching a book keeper use a pencil & paper in 1999. Fascinating but less than efficient. As with your comment about tracking message status, the more you try & contest what has been discussed here, you fail to show any more understanding than a disgruntled status quo advocate. You are red in the face over this, aren't you?
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RE: The future of the National Traffic System
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by WA0LYK on October 17, 2005
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<<AE6IP>>
<<Nothing in your list of questions is hard. Most of it any decent IT people could answer by reflex, and the rest of it amounts to agreeing on one among a list of arbitrary choices.>>
Sure any good IT person can answer these questions. The point is the answers are some that you don't want to hear.
Today, each and every ham can enter or leave the NTS system as they wish. The Gulf Coast Net after Katrina had numerous hams enter the NTS system for the first time from their obvious lack of expertise.
Secondly, the NTS operates each and every day of the year. There is no downtime, NCS's come and go, members come and go but it keeps on ticking. There is are no special security measures needed in today's NTS because a "spammer" just wouldn't get very far.
Lets say someone sets up a database with a browser interface so you can enter messages, read messages, download messages, and mark them pending delivery or delivered. If you let just anyone access the system without security you WILL have some 10 year old continously retrieving messages and marking them delivered and "spammers" generating junk. The moment you initiate logins, passwords, and background checks you increase the workload to support it exponentially. You also remove the ease that allow all hams to have instant access which they do have with NTS. Believe me, if ham has to go through a security check procedure, you won't have many participants in your new system. It will take too long when an emergency happens to do this. Investigate winlink and echolink to see what it takes to validate users.
This doesn't even start to describe the issues with who supports the servers, etc. financially. It doesn't address how ham volunteer database providers move in and out of the system. It doesn't address how you keep a server up and running when a ham goes SK or the database goes down the day after the database provider leaves on a two week vacation. And on, and on, and on. IT people can surely address some of these issues and how hard they are to administer.
Can you use multiple copies of the database on several servers to help provide 24/7/365? You sure can, but then you have update and record locking issues to address. You also have to worry about physical location so disasters don't knock out the very servers you need. Network security becomes much more complicated and will require administra | | | |