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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mobile Operation

Alan Applegate (K0BG) on October 28, 2005
View comments about this article!

The Hybrid Automobile

and the

Future of Amateur Mobile Operation

I don't know how many amateurs operate mobile, but I'd suspect the number is rather large. The majority operate VHF of course, with a much smaller number on the HF bands. It really doesn't matter which mode or frequency, as all require some amount of current at a nominal 13.6 VDC (although we refer to is as 12 volts). Amperage requirements vary from an amp or two, to as much as 100 amps peak. All of this power is usually supplied by an alternator with the SLI (Starting, Lights, Ignition) battery acting as a buffer. In some installations, there are two or more batteries, and a larger alternator delivering as much as 250 amps. Twelve volts is twelve volts, and if you use good practices, installing mobile equipment is not difficult. I do my best to explain the correct procedures in the various articles on my web site.

I've been operating amateur mobile for many years, and I've seen the change from 6 volt to 12 volt systems; the latter is now so ubiquitous we don't even consider it when buying, or installing a mobile transceiver. Good, bad, or indifferent, there is a change in the wind.

The current gasoline prices notwithstanding, the future has been written on the wall for many years; we have to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels, foreign or otherwise. The EPA, for what it is or isn't, has set standards for fuel mileage and emissions we all must meet. The automobile manufacturers have stepped up to the plate, and given us all manner of technical wizardry to improve mileage, and reduce emissions. Some of these new devices exacerbate the RFI we contend with. One of these, COP (Coil Over Plug), has become the number one bane of HF SSB operation. Unfortunately, there are more insidious demons creeping into our beloved mobile sanctuary. Enter the Hybrid automobile!

I am not an expert on hybrid systems by any stretch of imagination. If you are, great! I wish I had talked with you before I wrote this article. So please, don't get offended, and pick at the details. After all, this is supposed to be generic information. For those who wish to learn more, there are hundreds of web sites dedicated to this new technology.

If you're thinking about buying a hybrid vehicle, read all of the data on the particular model you can, as some of the data is purposely misleading no matter the manufacturer! This includes, but is not limited to, the application of included warranties, extended warranties, and assumed warranties especially with respect to the requisite assist batteries all hybrids require. While this may sound off the subject, it isn't. In a recent California Supreme Court decision, it was ruled that extended warranties cannot be considered an assumed warranty. By all means, read the fine print carefully, and ask questions even if the wording appears non misleading. Caveat Emptor!

In the future, we may see fuel cell, hydrogen fueled, and perhaps 200+ mile-range full battery vehicles in our driveways. Until then, the main thrust is the battery assisted gasoline vehicle better known by the name hybrid. There are others looming on the horizon, but currently available hybrids are mostly from Honda, Toyota, and Ford, with a few from secondary market suppliers.

There are so many different configurations, it is hard to make a pat statement about any of them. What follows is an overview, and is not specific to any particular vehicle. Each manufacturer is slightly different in their application. If there is one commonality, it is the type of assist battery they employ. Currently, almost without exception, hybrids use Nickel Metal-Hydride (Ni-MH) batteries.

Similar to lead-acid SLI batteries, Ni-MH units are designed to provide copious amounts of power for a short duration, and can be charged at very high rates, with some in excess of 100 amps at 128 volts! Other than the specific battery technology, the main difference is their nominal voltage. An SLI battery may be from 12.2 to about 13.4 volts (slightly more under charge), the typical hybrid battery delivers 120 volts to as much as 750 volts. There are several reasons for the high voltage, not the least of which is an effort to reduce I2R losses, and the available current ratings of the requisite solid state devices needed to control all of the complex functions.

Complexity is the key word here. The average hybrid has a small gasoline engine which uses modified valve timing to emulate the Atkinson cycle design rather than the more conventional Otto cycle design. Between the engine and transmission is a brushless, permanent magnet DC generator which (in most cases) can be used as a starter motor. There is the Ni-MH assist battery, a brushless permanent magnet DC drive motor-generator usually called the assist motor, and the all-important electronic control assembly. In some cases, there are multi-farad capacitor banks (16 to 64 Farads!). I could go into a long dissertation on the variances in designs, which energy saving algorithm they use etc., but there is so much information available on the net, the effort would be superfluous. Besides, this is suppose to be an amateur radio related article.

The rub comes for us amateurs in the methodology any specific design uses. Almost all use a standard (albeit a little larger in size) SLI battery to supply power for the lights and accessories while the engine is shut down. In some models, like the Honda accord, it is also used for starting if the assist battery is low. In most cases, the SLI battery is charged using the generator, not the alternator. Since the main function of the generator is to charge the assist battery and/or power the vehicle by supplying power to the assist motor, the amount of energy available to charge the SLI and/or power amateur radio equipment remains to be seen.

After spending about 10 hours reading about the various hybrids, and sending a dozen or so e-mails to the manufacturers, I've drawn a blank with respect to the charging current supplied by the generator (I think it is a trade secret). The Honda Accord does have an alternator, but most hybrids do not. One could assume it would have to be as big or bigger than that supplied by a standard alternator (100 to 160 amps), but there is no published data I can find to support the assumption. This fact begs the question about how much additional amperage is available, if any. While I cover alternator reserves on my web site, until such information is available for hybrids, we're in the lurch. One fear I have is that high power mobile may become a thing of the past.

There is another aspect too. What about all of those high-tech controllers? Are they compatible with amateur radio, and if they are at what frequencies? I do not believe there is enough information disseminated from the manufacturers and/or users to even make a WAG.

My brother Evan, K0HYG (sk), ran a 100 watt Yaesu, and an ATAS 120 antenna in his Toyota Prius without any apparent problems. He never used the radio except on highway trips where the engine runs constantly. I recently spoke to an amateur in Georgia who was using a Honda Civic hybrid, and an Icom 706. His only comment was the excessive ignition noise while the engine was running. With respect to egress RFI from the various parts, until hybrids become common place, our current view may be distorted. Fixing any egressed RFI may end up being a dangerous undertaking. The 128 volts the Toyota uses, to the nearly 750 volt system used by ISE, there is a new level of concern not only for our use, but crash responders as well.

There are a couple of other technologies on the horizon we need to think about too. One of those is the 48 volt system. Several GM models are slated to have 48 volt systems as early as 2007. While they are supposed to have 12 V accessory outlets to run existing devices like cell phones, the available amperage is too low for even a moderate amateur radio power level.

Pure battery vehicles may be a ways off, but undoubtedly they will use higher voltages than we are used to. Further, it is certain that accessory devices will become available to run off of what ever voltage level becomes standard (if any). We certainly don't have to worry about Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, and others as they will supply whatever equipment is necessary to preserve sales. This primarily because their thrust is commercial, not amateur; we're just along for the ride.

Not everything is dank and dark. If GM does introduce a 48 volt system, assuming it will not be a hybrid, the nominal 54 VDC output will make high power mobile much easier to accomplish. In fact, this is a high enough voltage to easily allow 1,000 watts out if the alternator proves to be sufficient. As a side light, think of all of the new light bulbs, head lamps, and instrumentation this changeover will cause. Maybe it's time to invest in General Electric, as they make both assist motors and light bulbs.

Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to the first articles to appear in the pages of QST describing switching converters to supply 13.6 VDC from a 128 or higher voltage assist batteries to power our transceivers, and other goodies. Heck if they can supply 12kW or more energy to an assist motor, surely they can power an Icom IC-7000 via a converter.

No matter your feelings in this matter, hybrids, fuel cells, hydrogen, and new battery technology are happening now, and the sooner we start thinking about their impact on our mobile operation, the better we'll be equipped to meet the challenges.

Alan Applegate, K0BG

Member Comments:
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The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by VE3XKD on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the interesting article. I am in the process of installing an ICOM 706 Mk2 into my 2004 Toyota Prius. During intial tests I noticed interference when I powered the Prius on, when braking (must be the regenerative brakes) and when accelerating using both the electric motor and gas motor at the same time. However when cruising on the highway, the noise was minimal. Cheers!
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by W4WQ on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Good article!!
I have a 2005 Prius (Package 6--with Navigation, Bluetooth, etc) and I have a Yaesu FT-7800 144/440 Mhz FM rig mounted. I modified a cigar lighter adapter with Anderson Power Poles and attached the Yaesu power cord to it. As the Prius 12V power receptacle is fused at 10A, I set the Yaesu for low power operation (20 watts).
I am using a (removeable) Pro-Fit adhesive mount under the auto radio (just below the center storage compartment under the dash). Using the Yaesu separation kit, the tiny Yaesu Control Head is easy to see and it works great. I have a small Yaesu mobile speaker that I attached velcro to, and it sits on the floor, under the auto radio and Yaesu control head. The velcro keeps it snug in place, and there is plenty of audio.
I am pleased to report that I have no auto generated interference what-so-ever while using the rig and there is no evidence that using the rig has any adverse affect on the Prius' electronics in the 2 months I've been using the 2M/70CM rig.
And yes, I do get great gas mileage on my 80+ mile round trip commute every day, never less that 51MPG, sometimes more, any my Prius still isn't fully broken in, as of today (28 Oct 05) I have 9300 miles on it.

Sam W4WQ in Culpeper, Virginia
RMC(SS) U.S. Navy-Retired
Getting ready to celebrate my 50 anniversary of being a licensed ham (in Jul 2006).
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by AA4PB on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Standardizing on 48V could make for some cleaner transmitter designs. It will be a pain during the transition period however.

 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by WA7NCL on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Higher voltages like 48V will be a net benefit to hams. In the transition we can use switching buck converters to make a battery charger for an aux 12V battery that will run our legacy gear. The converters will be cheap and easy since 48V is a telcon voltage. The converters will also serve to isolate the 12V aux battery from the auto starting system, so we won't run the starting battery down.

Will there be EMI/RFI? Probably, but the manufacturers will have to suppress it some so that the car AM radio still works. They have to suppress it enough so the broadcast FM works and of course cell phones, GPS and satellite radio as well. So I think we will be about where we are today.

As far as suseptability goes, the auto industry now follows industry specificiations for suseptablity. Plus if we have a down conversion/charger to our own 12V battery for the radio, we can add our own EMI filtering. This will help a lot with conducted RF through the power system.

So bottom line is we shouldn't have a great deal of problems. We net a few advantages. The only thing is we might have to learn a few new things and add some extra power circuitry.
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by K4IA on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Great article and super website.

Where was all that high voltage back in the tube days - when we needed it! Will the next generation of mobile gear be "hollow state?"
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by WB2WIK on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I wonder about hydrogen cell vehicles which, from what I've heard and seen thus far, require very little battery power and may be designed to power the electric motors directly from converters, essentially eliminating storage batteries altogether. Surely a nice cost and weight savings that way, but what's a ham to do?

If the converter output runs from 0v to hundreds of v and doesn't need to be regulated for the application, how are we going to create converters for power-hungry mobile rigs? Since the intent is for them to be purely electric, they won't need starters or any battery to power one. Could end up with a couple D cells to run the car radio/door locks/alarms, and not much else required....

WB2WIK/6
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by N3AIU on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

I own a Honda Civic hybrid and I really like it. I installed my ICOM 2m/70cm mobile rig in it. The radio works fine, but I'm sure that I would hear more noise if I were using a non-FM rig. The only difficulty I had was trying to find a hole in the fire wall to pass the power from battery to radio (my old cars had plenty of rust spots for that).

73, Nick N3AIU
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KB0NHX on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe Rick, N3AIU, could contact me direct by e-mail at kb0nhx@nixahams.net. I just got a Honda Civic Hybird, curious where you got through the firewall and into the trunk area. I got through, but always like to hear options.

73 all,
James Adkins, KB0NHX
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KC8VWM on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Fixing any egressed RFI may end up being a dangerous undertaking.

----

First I would like to say that this is a very interesting article. Great job.

One thought came to mind when the issue of RFI came up in these newer hybrid vehicles.

I feel that automakers in the future are going to be taking an RF Friendly approach when designing these new vehicles. I predict we will see a further reduction of RFI related problems than we see in today's conventional gasoline powered vehicles.

I feel this way because everyday we see more and more high-tech gadgetry to impress even the most geeked-out consumers added to these new vehicles every year. With the addition of all this new gadgetry, auto manufacturers will eventually be placed into the position of resolving RFI issues with their own vehicle equipment as part of the vehicles overall design.

... And yes, eventually we will all be getting that Jetson's space vehicle in our driveway as promised back in the early 70's

73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by N3AIU on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KB0NHX (James):

I'm embarrassed to admit that I did not find the hole myself. My local car stereo shop guy found it for me. I'm embarrassed to say that I've really become an applicance operator...

Anyway, my hybrid is an automatic (no clutch in the floorboard). The shop guy punched out the piece that covers the hole where the clutch would have been. I fished the wire through myself.

73, Nick N3AIU
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by N3AIU on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
"... And yes, eventually we will all be getting that Jetson's space vehicle in our driveway as promised back in the early 70's "

I hope not. Most people have enough trouble driving in two dimensions. Imagine the resulting chaos when the third dimension is added.

73, Nick N3AIU
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N6AJR on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
with a 48 volt battery, AI could use the IC2-KL direct..or an als 600,
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N0TONE on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It is correct that we need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Purchasing a high-MPG vehicle is not the answer. Driving less is the answer.

If you are pursuing the objective correctly, you will be driving so little that there is no opportunity to "do radio" while driving, so this entire discussion is silly.

AM
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N0TONE on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I forgot to mention this item...hydrogen fuel cell technology is now properly recognized as an "also ran". It was nothing more than an alternative method for storing energy. Like any battery, you still have to "fill it up" somehow.

At alternative energy conferences, the number of people interested in discussing, and the amount of money flowing into, hydrogen fuel cell technology, is very clearly petering off.

Thank goodness they finally came to their senses.

AM
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by AA4PB on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Yup, if we'd all go back to horse and buggy we'd save a bundle of gas and have plenty of time for a nice long QSO during our drive to work each day. :-)
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N3ZKP on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
<< Driving less is the answer. >>

That is a rather simplistic answer in that for many, many people, the amount of driving required for their jobs is not really open to negotiation or reduction. The long-haul trucking industry comes to mind first, but there are many others.

I drive 18-25k miles a year and little of it is optional. It's simply what my job requires.

73,

Lon - N3ZKP
Baltimore, Maryland
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KE4DRN on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Nice article and comments..

Perhaps the future vehicles will have solar panels
installed near the front and rear windshields
to recharge batteries to power our consumer electronics ?

73 james



 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by AI2IA on October 28, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It is too early in the game, and it is a game, for amateurs to be concerned about hybrid vehicles and the effect on amateur radios. It will be years before the auto industry, the fuel industry, and the government get their acts together and some standardization and legislation comes about. Remember how all TV was supposed to be digital TV by now? Where are we going to put all the analog TV receivers? In the mean time, though, it is a good challenge to adapt to the quirky little auto modifications that come along, although rest assured that they will not be the harbingers of what lies ahead. For better or for worse, just as the motor vehicles are not going to stay the same, neither are the amateur radio rules and regulations. Keep it one day at a time, if you want to remain sane and enjoy amateur radio.
 
A couple of responces  
by K0BG on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I don't agree with n0tone. As Lon says, we can't all dictate the milage we drive. Two years before I retired, my company moved locations nearly doubling my drive to work. Was I supposed to quit, give up my retirement, just to save a few gallons of gas?

James, have you thought that perhaps we'll have vehicle glass which doubles as a photovoltaic?

Ray, I agree with you. My point was (is) that we can't just be a bump on the log. If we find out that using amateur radio in a new hybrid causes the gas milage to drop in half, who do we turn to? Keeping diligent is the key word here.

And to everyone, thanks for the kind comments.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K4JF on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
As far as fuel economy is concerned, notone, buying a more fuel-efficient vehicle is EXACTLY the same as driving less.

Most reasonable people will wind up using a combination of the two. Whatever combination best suits their individual needs.
 
RE: A couple of responces  
by KC2OOS on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have to say I also disagree with N0TONE, thought I certainly understand and respect his point. My counter-arguement, however, is that the technologies already exist to make the vehicles we can produce far more efficient than they are now.

Why, for example, in an era with rapidly increasing fuel prices, are we still seeing advertisments for cars with more and more horsepower? Because consumers still demand them.

As I am a VW enthusiast, I am happy to report that VW has two amazing technologies that could have great benefits that could go a long way toward solving our fuel problems. The first is the cars in Brasil that can run on any combination of ethanol and gasoline. There are few cars like this in the US market, but it would seem to me that the widespread availability of ethanol will never take place if the vehicles don't exist. The second is the new "twincharger" engine that VW is producing, which can make 170 HP from a 1.4L engine, while maintaining a 40 MPG city rating. But even 170 HP is too much for the average small car. The VW Golf we bought in 1988 had only 80-90 HP, and I never had a problem with it. Sure, it's nice to go fast, and it's even nicer to have lots of metal and conveniences around you, but these things have costs which are getting harder and harder to bear.

Another factor is transmissions. Why are the mfg's still producing larger and heavier trucks with larger, heavier, and more powerful engines, when they could just as easily put six- and seven-speed transmissions and smaller, more efficient engines in their vehicles? Again, VW is leading the field with their new DSG six-speed automatically-acutated, dual-clutch manual transmission, which is faster and more efficient than even the best race drivers in shifting gears, and gets better economy and performance than a regular manual transmission, while retaining the convenience of the automatic.

Hybrid vehicles are not the answer, and neither are fuel-cell hydrogen vehicles. I encourage people not to buy into these technologies, as they only obscure the true problem, while adding a whole host of even more difficult problems (have you priced a set of replacement batteries for a hybrid?). Change your mindset, and demand that vehicle mfg's change theirs, too. We have the capability of driving cars that use half the fuel without even trying. Why aren't we using it?
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N6AJR on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
ok NOTONE, we will give up some non essential driving.. first, park all the police cars, then the ambulances and fire trucks, as they all tend to drive too much and get lousy milage, then lets parrk all the big rigs and grow our own food and make our ownd clothes because with out trucks there will be no deliveries to the groicery store or the mall....

any more bright I deas???
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N6AJR on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
and BTW NOTONE are you ever going to fill out you eham profile so we know if you are male, female or what.. I notice folks with the nastiest comments always have no name etc given when tyoy click on their name.. its much easier to be a flamer if you know no one can identify you.....
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by K9ZMD on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,
Thanks for the article. Your information, plus the pertinent replies, have helped me decide in favor of putting my IC-706MIIG into the 2005 Prius* I bought for my commute (about 150 miles RT daily).
I wonder if anyone has any first-hand experience of severe problems with such an installation in the Prius. If so, how did you correct it?
Also for those who already run mobile in the Prius, where the heck are you sticking that antenna?
Gary, K9ZMD
Palmdale, CA

*(Package 6 with every bell & whistle Toyota could install. Driving is mostly at 65-75 mph. Averaging about 48 MPG, and have been checking & recording it at each fill-up. When driving only 50-60 mph (it has actually rained a time or two here) the gas mileage is considerably better. However, most of the time, I drive to arrive, not save gas.)
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KC8VWM on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Perhaps the future vehicles will have solar panels
installed near the front and rear windshields
to recharge batteries to power our consumer electronics ?

---

Well James, you mean you haven't seen me rolling down the highway yet?

...12 antennas, EME array, radar dish and 4 solar panels?

:) 73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: A couple of responces  
by KC8VWM on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
As I am a VW enthusiast, I am happy to report that VW has two amazing technologies that could have great benefits that could go a long way toward solving our fuel problems.

------

Another good reason to have the callsign KC8 Volks Wagon Man.

73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KE7AGI on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the article, Alan.

I can supply some details on both the Toyota and Ford hybrids. While there are some detail differences between them they are basically similar, and quite different from Honda's IMA system. I have installed VHF/UHF in both a 2002 Prius and a 2005 Escape without problems.

1. Both designs use (two) permanent magnet AC motors as opposed to a single brushless DC like Honda. A controller chops up the DC from the battery to feed the phases of the stator at the desired speed and current levels. The way the system is designed, each motor can be used as a generator or as a motor at any given instant. That means there's a lot of high-power switching going on under the hood. However, the high voltage systems are completely isolated from the rest of the vehicle. Nominal voltage in Ford's system is 330V, Toyota used a similar voltage in the first Prius but used a lower voltage in the current model (an inverter bumps it up to 500V for the motor in the new Prius).

2. Both systems use a "DC to DC converter" to provide 13.8vdc for the rest of the vehicle systems. These converters are liquid cooled and are fused for something on the order of 100A output. Now that 100A includes all the other systems in the vehicle (everything except the battery and motor run on 13.8vdc) so it's not all available for us to use. The Prius battery is indeed a sealed lead-acid design but the Escape uses a conventional 550CCA battery under the hood (this can also be used for an emergency "jump start" of the HV battery if needed).

3. Like all modern vehicles there's almost no good place to put a radio. Separation kits are the only way to go in these cars, and under the driver's seat is about the only good place to put the transciever body.

4. I've noticed no noise problems in either vehicle on VHF or UHF, but I expect there will be some noise at least from the COP ignition when I put an HF rig in there.

Toyota makes no statements about installing radios in the Prius. Ford only warns against placing the antenna on the driver's side near the firewall as that's the location of the computer.

You may recall the auto industry looked at moving to 42v systems a few years back, but the initiative failed to take off. IIRC, a combination of industrial intertia and concerns about EMF exposure killed off the plans.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by NS6Y_ on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
N0T0NE = hammese for N0C0H0NES hehe
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by NS6Y_ on October 29, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
OK now I have that out of my system, some observations:

Some ppl whose opinions I HIGHLY respect tell me the 'old' Prius is very noisy, the new one not too bad.

I picked up a used 05 Prius, and am very happy with it, it's looking like I'll get an average of just under 55MPG with the latest tank of gas, last one was 53 point something. And it's a neat car, handles well, enough power, and lots of very well thought out details, like two cupholders you latte' hounds.

The Prius seems to have been designed with two things in mind: (1) Drivers spend incredible amounts of time either creeping along, or dead stopped, and (2) Why not use downhills to *generate* power and recharge the batts. When you drive one, you get used to the engine cutting out all the time, all it's doing is the old WWII trick of shutting off the engine when not needed. And I'm sure the trick of using downhill potential energy to charge up a battery has been dreamt of since the first automobile. It all results in a mid-sized, not compact, car that gets the same mileage as a conservatively-ridden, midsized motorcycle, but you get to stay dry in the rain and take a few friends or a few hundred lbs of stuff along for the ride. Or both!

(Payload of the Prius is 850 lbs, in other words, two Americans and their luggage, or 4 Japanese and their luggage.)

It takes good aerodynamics to get mileage this good in a car this size, and if you really want to see your mileage go down, drive around with a window open or something. Elaborate antennas or mobile antenna farms for that porcupine effect on the Prius will cost you. On any car will cost you, actually.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N0KCN on October 30, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I wouldn't lose any sleep over this issue...The car stereo hip-hop venders will make sure there is plenty of 12-14 vdc available for 1000W sub-woofers in every car that comes out....LOL
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K7PEH on October 30, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe ham radio technology should advance with the advancing technology of cars...

It is certainly possible to operate a ham radio station remotely. What would be wrong with using a cellular phone in your car, hands free style, to operate your HF rig back home with its big antenna and the big amplifier remotely.

A new appliance to be added to the storefronts of MFJ, HRO, and others would be a digital controller for your HF rig with voice command control coming from your home phone connection. Just plug it in.

After all, today in my pickup truck with Onstar, I can call home hands free with my voice activated cellular phone built into the truck using a very simple voice command that I created. Why not add a few features such as "Scan for open frequency between 14240 and 14290". Or, how about "Scan for CQ or QRZ call".

This can be done today with today's technology. In fact, someone has probably done it already.

By the way, another possible problem with our advancing automotive technology is the fact that the amount of metal in the car may be reduced to such a degree that alternative antenna designs will need to be considered.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K4JF on October 30, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
"Maybe ham radio technology should advance with the advancing technology of cars..."

I, for one, would not want to slow down ham technology that much.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by WA6BFH on October 30, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

PEH, taking discriminator audio off a radio such as an FT-736, and having also easy access to a “Carrier Operated Switch” voltage at the same rear connector on the radio makes such an idea easy enough for anyone that can solder a couple connectors together. Such a person would quite likely not even need that level of skill and knowledge.

I reference that radio since it is a desirable choice for those that would otherwise start out with such things as 222 MHz SSB (gee is SSB legal on 220 -- as I have been asked) etc. I suspect that the FT-847 would also be available for such easy “remoting” also.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K7PEH on October 30, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
WA6BFH ---

Actually, the part of the technology advance that I would want to see is the voice operated command system. Especially one sophisticated enough to remote tune the rig at the base station.

But, voice activation is not necessary. Another remote control device would be like a remote head unit (like on my ic-706) but instead of a connecting cable, you have a digital interface over cellular phone.

Actually, what am I thinking here -- this is the kind of work I have done for decades -- real time control of remote devices. In my particular case, power system equipment in substations or at generator plants remotely controlled via a graphic user-interface. Sure, my team can build that -- for about $5 million I presume, I don't think we do smaller systems.
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KL7VE on October 30, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the article. I've been running UHF, VHF, and HF in a Prius since 2002. It's a very nice car for radios. I currently have an FT-100D mounted in the trunk below the rear window ledge. I had an ATAS-100 mounted on the left side of the trunk lid for awhile, but replaced it with a Hustler HF foldover antenna. That's mounted on a spring attached to a custom mount (some aluminum angle bolted to the right shipping bracket under the car, with some HMW plastic for insulation. There's a very convenient 1/2" hole on the right side of the trunk for an HF antenna, and the 12v battery is back there too. I have the radio head remoted to the front console, and stuck there along with a speaker with Velcro. The Hustler folds over and rests in a Y-fork rest made from an old mag mount base. That cuts way down on wind resistance and banging into parking garage ceilings.

There is little noise on VHF or UHF (any mode), though there is a birdie around 146.64. There is a lot of noise from 80 meters through 15 meters. Most of my HF operation is done parked, with the inverter shut down. The noise is radiated noise (I've tested from a stand-alone 12v battery). I've grounded a lot of the body work, and am slowly finding new noise sources here and there.

Some specific values for 2001-2003 Prius: "assist" battery (HV battery) is nominally 273 volts. Available inverter current is about 70-80 amps, but the 12v battery buffers that. The 12v battery is smaller than a conventional auto or truck, though Toyota issued a service bulletin that replaced the original with a larger one.

73, Ken
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KE4DRN on October 31, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
hi,

As others have posted, the expense of these new tech vehicles is a factor, it can be lowerd when production levels increase.

One big problem with any car or truck, they require service and that costs money. When money is tight, the first thing to be postponed is the car repairs. That is one reason we have onboard computers and numerous sensors in the cars, to keep the engine running efficiently and meet pollution rules.

Here in North Carolina we have thousands of acres that used to produce tobacco, we could grow purple sweet potato and use it to produce alcohol fuel for cars and trucks. Two crops, early and late, drip irrigated and machine harvested. Better then corn because it is underground and not vulnerable to high winds and drought. In ten years or less, oil will only be used to lubricate the engines.

We just have to fuel up twice as often because gasoline has higher energy content.

73 james

 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KU4YM on October 31, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I don't see anyone diferentiating between vhf and hf. I own a 2002 Prius. VHF is absolutely a non issue with this car. My IC706MKII works wonderfully.

Until you move to HF. Then the car is a total violation of part 15 rules! It puts out so much noise that operation is impossible if the engine is on! Contacts with the dealer, the customer service dept in CA and the research center in MI go totally unanswered. I hear that the culprit is the DC to DC converter, but I don't know that for a fact. (I've got all the usual common-mode chokes, etc. all over the wiring.)

The only way HF operation is possible is with the engine totally off. So much for ARES operations during hurricane season here in SC!

Does anybody know who the corporate counsel is? Maybe a letter to him and the FCC might some intelligent response.

Dave, KU4YM
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by N4DAV on November 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have a Motorola CDM1550 45 W UHF radio installed in my 2006 Escape hybrid. No issues at all so far!
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KG4RRN on November 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I want to be the first kid on my block to have a hydrogen powered ham radio with echolink and digital transmission-Mommy can I have that???(in 2050)
Bob, KG4RRN
hahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by K1DA on November 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Two points. One the military has used 24 volts forever. Two The "48 volt system" is dead in the water according to Auto Week. BTW Delphi makes the Gm stuff and just went down for the count.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KE7EIQ on November 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Actually it was going to be 42 volt because once you go to 48 volt you are in "high voltage" territorry and the safety rules change.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K3SWJ on November 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have an Escape Hybrid and operate a Yaesu Quad bander FT8500, a Kenwood APRS rig and a Kenwood TS-440. Outside of some trouble getting big guage wire for the rigs into the cockpit, I have had few problems. The drive converter creates a whine on 160, 80, and 40 mtrs on related freqs but its only noticeable when stopped in gear with the brake on (at a light). I average 32+ mpg in town and regularly get 35-36 between Austin and San Antonio. The A/C has more effect on mileage than windows down and the antennas don't lower the mileage but do encourage more driving! You don't mind the traffic when your having fun. I do recommend a one ear head set boom mike for operating though. There seems to be plenty of DC for mobiling even with the lights and A/C on. Plenty of room for rigs, people, antennas and luggage too. Your mileage may vary from mine but I'm lovin it! 73 Ed now KE3D
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by ND4Z on November 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have a 2000 Honda InsightHybird. With some small mods and modified driving habits I often get as high as 80 MPG. Worst milage I have ever had was 63 MPG.
I have a Kenwood TMG 707 for 2 meters and 70 cm with remote head on dash and the rig is on the space between the drivers seat and front door. The antenna is a dual band Larson mounted on the back hatch near the drivers side tail lights on the drivers side, on a home brew stainless steel mount, screwed to the inside of the hatch back lip metal. I have very little noise on 2 and 70 cm. The problem is on HF. The HF rig is a Icom 703,using QRP CW, with small paddles mounted on console, with Hamstick antennas for most HF bands. The mount is again a home brew stainless steel bracket on the passenger side rear of hatch back with a 3/8 X 24 stud for quick disconnect. Usually I use low profile hamsticks for HF bands 10 tru 40 meters. At certin speeds a lot of hash is received on most HF bands. The lower in freq the more the hash. But even with just 10 watts I have had a lot of good contacts on CW HF. The IMA charge module and Dc to DC converter seems to be the noise problem. BTW, I ran a heavy wire to the main 12 volt battery in the engine compartment by drilling a hole through the firewall to power both rigs. I will be trying a full 100 watt HF rig soon. Still researching a cure to help reduce the RFI produced by the electronics. The cars IMA (Internal Motor Assist)runs from 144 volts provided by NiMetal Hy Dry batteries under the back floor board. In case your not familiar with this car, it is the world champion of hybird fuel milage for the past6 years running. It has a drag cof. of .24 and weighs 1850 lbs. It's body is all alumn. and plastic. It's motto is "Think, miles per drop" It "sniffs" valuable fuel rather than drinks it. I love the little car and highly recomond it if you want to help keep the earth stay green and save lots of money at the pump. It is Ultra Low Emmission Vehicle (ULEV) certified.If intrested, for more info visit Insight Central. com website. And no, I don't work for Honda or promote my little car for any profit.
73,
Rick ND4Z
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by WB5PDW on November 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I once owned a 1963 VW that got 56 mph. Whats the big deal with hybrids.
 
RE: A couple of responses  
by KE7EIQ on November 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have to disagree with the claim that "Hybrid is not the answer" and would instead say that hybrid technology is _part_ of the answer.

If we sit on our backsides waiting for the miracle of H2 or some other far-off technology we will never get there. The fact that Toyota has more or less driven the rest of the industry to develop an answer to the Prius (which was first shown in 1997 in Japan, btw) is nothing but goodness both for efficiency and perhaps most importantly for reduced pollution. The difference between these hybrids and other small fuel efficient vehicles is that they are exceptionally clean.

Today I have been working on installing my newest toy (FT-857D with ATAS-120) in the Escape Hybrid. If this thread is still alive when I've got it working I'll post an update on any noise issues. So far I've had to bond the rear hatch to the body to get a decent ground for the antenna but otherwise it's looking pretty straightforward.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K9ZMD on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
"I once owned a 1963 VW that got 56 mph. Whats the big deal with hybrids." More truth than poetry there, my friend, but I presume you actually meant 56 mpg.

I respect your viewpoint, as I have put many miles on VW bugs, and even more miles on motorcycles that did even better than 56 mpg (and better than 56 mph, too). I don't drive or ride either any more, with good reason. Please tell me more about your experience with the VW, such as how many miles you commuted in it, how many people rode with you, and how is it doing these days?

As for what's the big deal? Hybrids are actually large enough to hold 4+ people and their luggage in quiet, air conditioned comfort, accelerate & merge smoothly onto a freeway, cruise steadily up & down hills at highway speeds, and do all of that with very low emissions. As an added benefit, I've yet to see any of them spontaneously turn into smoky, beetle-shaped torches beside the freeway.

My viewpoint is based on owning a Civic Hybrid for nearly 60K trouble-free miles serving a carpool of four adults on a 150 mile RT commute, before I replaced it with a Prius that has been doing the same thing - only better in all respects - for 15K miles already.

With that answered, let's hear from more folks who actually drive hybrid buggies and have risked installing ham radio equipment in them.

Gary Allen, K9ZMD
Palmdale, CA
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N1URE on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Crew!
I have a first generation 2001 Prius with 85k on it. I'm successfully using a Kenwood dual band on 2meters and 440. The unit is mounted in the trunk with a remote head on the dash. Power is via the tiny 12 volt battery (not the high power main). No problems. I drive about 100 miles a day so I have never had a low battery condition. In the 2001 Prius the 12 volt battery is used to trip relays when starting the car. So even if you have this humongous bank of fully charged batteries, the weak point is this puny 12 volt battery. Go figure. I carry a 12 volt jumper battery just to be safe.

I know I'm a vanishing breed but I also do mobile television. At http://www.coastaletech.com/ you can get all kinds of cool patch kits. I'm using the Prius built in screen for DVD playing and yes ATV! No I don't drive when looking at the screen. A painters pole with a 426.25 Mhz beam on top is my antenna. 12 volt camera, transmitter, receiver. Part of my down converter provides standard RCA jack video and audio connections also ch2 RF if needed.

The biggest problem I see is high current draw. The Prius can provide up to 10 amps using the factory connection. Although I would not push it as the wires look too small to actually carry that amount. The 12 volt battery costs big bucks as it is a jelly construction. I replaced it at 50k miles which is a common time for the thing to fail. Being a proper ham I found one with a greater capacity and hacked it into the car. I live in New England (N1ure) so the winters require a strong battery.

I've often though that a DC / DC power step down off the main battery bank would allow you to run your Henry 2k off the car (just kidding). The problem is (a) high voltage can kill you and (b) it voids the battery 100k service contract. Having worked with fly back transformers for TV and big power amps, I'm willing to take my chances with electrocution but replacing the batteries could be expensive!

Regards to all.
Larry Steiner N1URE
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KK7AC on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The prius is one ugly ass car. My childhood green machine had more balls than that shoe box on wheels. Give me an American V-8 Chevrolet thank you.

Watch for 36 or 48 volt systems in all cars, gas, electric or a combonation there of in the near future. Multiplexing technology and a larger demand for more electronic consuption is out pacing the demands of 12 volts. More voltage, less amps.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by N1URE on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Ugly, yes. I drive 100 mile a day so the 12mpg V8 vs my 40 makes a difference to me. As far as power (balls in your case), traffic is so bad during my commute that it does not matter. Before I had the Prius I had an old Army Jeep. It had 4:10's, lockers and even a snorkel. Lots of fun in the woods but real dumb as a commuter. As far as Ham radio goes the Jeep could power more and I did not mind bolting stuff to it. Kind of funny how we project our personality into a machine isn't it? As I'm older now and don't really care if my vehicle looks manly or not, the little toy car works for me.

Cheers
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
My 2004 Prius is a GREAT car. Not only does it provide good gas milage, it pollutes much less less than other cars, something all of our children will appreciate. I am currently installing an ICOM 706 Mk2G in my Prius with a mini-screwdriver antenna and have been enjoying the comments on this forum to date. So far, I have bonded the rear hatch, and am preparing to bond the hood, doors and exhaust system. I have noticed that when I 'Power on' the Prius, there is a lot of noise from the on-board computer or inverter, I'm not sure which. I would appreciate any pointers from those more experienced than I, though I have an HP spectrum analyzer that I will place in the car and use in an attempt to probe for the noise sources next week. BTW, I also carry a portable 12 volt power pack for the cold Canadian winters and camping. I had no problem carrying two sea kayaks on the Prius' roof rack over 1000 kms this summer during a camping trip. I will likely add in a an additional battery in parallel, or perhaps put in a larger one as some in this forum have suggested, in order to power the radio.
Best 73 all, hopefully will be able to qso you all mobile from the land of the frozen chosen!
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K9ZMD on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Ugly? The Prius may be ugly to some who don't own or drive one; however, the time to vote on that was when I was scraping together the down payment. Where were you then? Looking from the inside toward the outside, the Prius looks just like a car!
Less power than a Green Machine? Have you driven one (Prius or Green Machine) lately? The Prius and the Civic Hybrid both are capable of accelerating smoothly onto a freeway, and they both excel at freeway speeds. The Continuously Variable Transmission and very tight cruise control will steadily and effortlessly hold the preset speed uphill and downhill, something that your BA Chevy cannot do. (Yes, I have a basis for comparison, have you?) If you get stuck behind a hybrid, blame the driver, not the vehicle. Some misguided folks drive to save gas (an oxymoron); they would save more by leaving it in the driveway. Others select a car to save gas, and then drive to arrive.
Granted, the hybrid is not for everyone. For example, those who want to pull stumps or bait freeway "bears", or - quite possibly - install an HF rig for mobile use. That is what this thread was about, and I've been thoroughly enjoying the comments from those who have actually installed ham gear in the hybrids that they own and drive. Keep those comments coming, I am learning something from each of you.

Gary Allen, K9ZMD
Palmdale, CA
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KK7AC on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
K9ZMD, I dont know what a "BA" (maybe Bad Ass, and if so you are correct) chevy is, but I know my 2004 GMC Yukon with a 5.3 liter Chevy and my 2005 Chevrolet SSR with a 6.0 liter Corvette LS2 can certainly pass your Nicad on wheels on a hill or otherwise any time. Really? Does your beloved Prius do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds? a 1/4 mile in low 13? If so, great. Its still an ulgy ass car even if it gets 50 MPG and has "good" acceleration. And I have never been behind one......I'm in front of them! :)

Sorry, I love the rumbel of a V-8 thru tuned dual exhaust. Its like some of us enjoy "Hi-Fi" audio via a 1.5 KW Alpha on the bands, some like QRP thru a CW key -to each his own. Some like it fast others see it purely utilitarian. Again my SSR is way better looking than a payless shoe source box on training wheels.

I would love to see a hybrid in all cars...its comming or some form there of, but for now the only battery I want is one that cranks the starter motor.

The whole "electric" car thing is not new. GM pioneered it in the mid 80's with EVO 1. I for one can afford gasoline regardless so this is a moot point.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by K7PEH on November 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KK7AC says "I would love to see a hybrid in all cars...its comming or some form there of, but for now the only battery I want is one that cranks the starter motor."


I went to the new car show in Seattle this weekend and saw a number of new hybrids, some of them will not be available until late 2006.

The best that I saw was the new Honda Accord Hybrid. Looks EXACTLY like a high-end Honda Accord 4-door sedan but it is hybrid. I didn't count but I am sure I saw at least 4 or 5 SUV hybrids and some of those looked pretty good.

So, the hybrid car is here to stay I think and they are getting better. I did talk to one of the sales guys representing one of the hybrid SUVs and he admitted to me that you don't buy a hybrid SUV if you want power in the mountains. A hybrid SUV is really a cross over vehicle -- that is, cross over of an environmentalist buying what some used to call an environmentally unfriendly car.

I am in the market for a new SUV but it won't be a hybrid. I will probably buy an Acura MDX. We have a 2003 Acura CL Type S (a two-door coupe) and really like it so we will probably stay with this vendor. My other car is a 3/4 ton, crew cab, 4 WD, pickup truck so we will not talk about gas mileage with that beast. But, I run my mobile in the truck and all that metal works out quite well.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KK7AC on November 7, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Yes K7PEH, some of the other manufactures are placing hybrids in their "normal" line ups like Honda. You would not no the diff between the two (gas or electric) so they look good. Would I buy one if installed in a regular vehicle? Probably. Then again, maybe not. I'm just gald more manufactures are making them for those who choose to do so. Supply and demand will drive this market share although the left wont see this way.

The interesting thing is going to be RFI hash and other noises generated by such high current devices. I would be interseted in seeing reports on how hams fixed such issues. Then again there sem to be alot of RFI issues in all kinds of cars, mostly in conventional cars and trucks. Seems Ford has the most questions on this. I dont run HF in the mobile so I cant comment much on it.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by ND4Z on November 7, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It seems to me that this forum has drifted far off topic. The start of the forum was directed at installing ham equipment into a hy brid tech vehicle, and RFI noise problems. Who cares weather or not you like hybrids or the old gas guzling cars. That is not the issue. If you don't care about installing a ham rig in a hybird why comment on this forum?
Would like to hear from hams who have sucessfully installed ham rigs and or antennas on hybrid vehicles, with comments, to help the Ham community who happen to like hybrid cars. Any one have ideas on noise suppression of the RF QRN produced on HF bands by hybrid electronic systems?
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KD6NEM on November 7, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
With apologies to ND4Z, why has biodiesel been ignored? Only silly politics so far as I can tell. Net environmental footprint is better than for alcohol, is renewable, cheaper & easier to produce than alcohol. Produces far more per acre than any other renewable liquid fuel source. Safest liquid fuel as well. I'd rather be burning clean burning vegetable oil than foreign oil or anything else, even if in a hybrid. I'm waiting for Toyota to finally resume building some efficient diesels for the US. Hybrids- still burn foreign oil. I'll not pay such a premium to be able to do that! Lets grow our own and quit paying other countrys who hate us for our fuel.
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KU2US on November 9, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I know this may be a little off topic, but I too am considering buying a hybrid, & I will be installing radio equipment.I drive for a living. I noticed quite a few hybrid owners on this thread. I live in Western NY so the winters are COLD most of the time. Being quite uninformed about hybrids, I would like to ask this dumb question. and you can reply if you wish to my personal email at dentron1@yahoo.com ,,, How good is a hybrid on HEAT in the car cab? Seeing that the vehicle has two small engines-electric and gas..Plesase dont tell me to get a mobile boat anchor either.hihi..any help would be appreciated-cannot get a straight answer from dealers-all different. Need something from the "horses mouth"..Thanks, Ken..

 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by AC7LC on November 10, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The timing of this article is fantastic! I first read it last week and it gave me some things to think about, which lead me to my answers.

I recently purchased an Escape Hybrid and wanted to install the Icom 2720 I had from the previous car. My biggest concern was the fact that the engine doesn't run all the time, and I didn't want to run the starting battery down while sitting in stop and go traffic. I hadn't really considered the noise factor.

My solution was to install a relay off the starting battery with a circut that switches it on above 12.8v and off below. That feeds charging current to a 12ah gel-cell under the passenger seat. This way I'm confident I won't run the starting battery down while operating the radio. If I find that 12ah isn't enough, there is room for an additional one. I also wrapped the charge line around a torroid core about 5 times at the little-battery end for a bit more filtering. I don't hear any additional noise in the radio, but it is FM.

The radio itself is mounted in the rear "pocket" next to the jack compartment. I pulled the front off as it is just plastic rivited in place (not an option for lease cars) and found that it fits quite nicely. I had to turn the mount holes into slots since the pocket is just barely wide enough and the screws had to be installed first. There is a metal panel behind the pocket for about 1/3 the way up, so a couple of the mounting screws have a solid mount. I'll be keeping an eye on this.

The antenna is a Larsen 2/20 on a Comet hatchback mount.

While electrical noise isn't a problem for my FM communications, I do pick up some noise in the AM broadcast reciever. It is most noisy when stopped and the engine is off. I don't hear any when driving down the highway. If I ever do any HF mobiling, I will probably add some additional filtering to the power line (along with a bigger battery).

The auto-switching circut consists of a 12v zener, a 470 ohm limiting resistor, and an aditional forward-biased diode connected to the base of a PNP switching transistor. The emitter of the transistor goes to 12v and the collector goes to the top of the relay coil. I was intending the switching voltage to be 13v, but I bought the parts at Radio Shack so I have to expect some wide tolerances. I mounted the circut to a perfboard, potted it with black RTV and stuck it to the side of the 12v, 20A relay mounted right next to the starting battery.

 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KE7EIQ on November 13, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
OK I've had the FT-857D in the Escape Hybrid for a week now. Here's what I've found thus far.

There is non-trivial ignition noise, I've added split beads to the COP leads (number 4 took some work to fit the bead in place) and have purchased some 1" wide tinned copper mesh to improve my bonding for a better RF ground on the ATAS-120. The antenna is easy to tune manually but the auto-tune function is intermittent.

There's also noise from the various computers, so more split beads are likely in my future.

Listening with the key in the off position reduces the noise considerably.

According to the voltmeter in the FT-857D, the line voltage ranges between 13.8 and 14.4 volts, no doubt depending on the load.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on November 13, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I've been out working on my Prius for tha past week, and here's what I've discovered with bonding/grounding.

I bonded the hatch to the chassis, with no notable reduction in noise, which was about S8/9 with the engine off but the Prius powered ON. This compares to abt S5/6 normal noise measured with the Prious off, here in the city (downtown). With the engine running, the noise was 10 db over S9 on 40 and 80 (other bands not tested) I have split beads, 31 mix, on order, as well as Copper tape and have not installed any beads or tape so far. Today, I grounded/bonded the hood to the frame. I also noticed, in the engine compartment, a large aluminum cover over something that had a warning sign Caution - high voltage. This cover was about 1 foot square, was bolted to whatever was under it, and was showing a DC electrical ground to chassis, so I bonded it using braid. Voila, noise dropped about 10 db with the Prius powered on,to S6 but the engine not running. Witht he engine running, with the engine running, noise was only abt S9. More later, when the split bead arrive.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KE7EIQ on November 14, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The large box would be the inverter. Bonding that is likely a good idea. I don't know about the newer models but the ground strap on my 2002 Prius is less than impressive. The Escape has a modest sized (about 1/4 inch wide) braid from the engine to the unibody.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on November 15, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the tip. I'm going to look at putting some split beads on the wires going in and out of the inverter, as well as bonding the gas and electric engine to the chassis. Would wrapping the leads of the inverter in copper foil help?
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KE7EIQ on November 15, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I would advise against putting any conductive foil on the HV leads. One, they are orange so emergency responders can see they are high voltage, and two if the insulation failed you'd be electrifying the entire length of your shielding with HV instead of just the region of the break.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on November 15, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Good point. I never thought of that. Split beads will have to do it. Can you think of any other places that I should ground that might not be obvious? What about the electric motor?

73
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KE7EIQ on November 15, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The electric motors are integral to the transaxle assembly. If you get a good ground on the engine you should be covered there.

My noise seems to be coming from a combination of sources at this point. The split beads definitely reduced the ignition noise but I still have what may be fuel pump noise, plus general hash from the computer. It'll take some time to track it all down, but for now I can run key off in the Escape and it's just fine.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on November 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks!
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on November 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
More on the 2004 Prius.

I succeeded in bonding the Prius' voltage converter to the chassis, as well as the engine block. As mentioned previously, the engine block is grounded to the frame by Toyota using a small no 12 wire - not good enough for RF. I added a ground using tinned 1/2 inch braided wire and checked for noise. Noise is now about S5 to s8 on all bands with the engine off but the voltage converter running (e.g. with the Prius powered 'on').

With the gas engine running, the noise did not significantly increase.

This is significantly better than the 10 over S9 noise I initially had when I started out on this project.

With a little snooping, I discovered (by hearing its high pitched whine and turning the power on and off) that the voltage converter appears to be a potential culprit. I've nixed the idea of covering the large orange cables in 3M copper tape thanks to safety information gained from a previous posting, however I am next going to look at obtaining some large 31 mix chokes and will put one on each of the High Voltage leads going into and out of the converter. As the converter cover seems easy to remove, I may take it off and see if there are any obvious grounding problems on the inside.

If these chokes work, then I will be in business on HF mobile. BTW, The rig is an ICOM 706Mk2G, and the antenna for testing is a temporarily mounted whip (Hamstick), with a Little Tarheel about to be installed.

73 all
VE3XKD
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on November 19, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I managed to install two sets of unknown mix split beads to the voltage converter this afternoon. It makes a definate difference! Noise is now down to about 3S units over the local noise on 80/40 20 and is only about an S unit over local noise on 15 and 10 meters. This might be a factor of the mix on the split beads I used today (I don;t know what mix it is), I will replace these with the mix 31 beads when they arrive and post the results. There are about three more leads coming from the voltage converter to install split beads on, and I feel confident that I will get the noise to reasonable levels.

HF mobile here we come :-))

VE3XKD
 
The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateur Mo  
by KF4HR on February 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not sure what your issue is with the high voltage supply in the hybrids. I drive a 2004 Prius with a Yaesu FT-857D/ATAS120A system - which is powered off the 12 volt system. I understand the new Prius's have a 500 volt hybrid battery pack, although I wouldn't consider tapping in to it. I don't see the need.

I am experiencing a high noise level on my 857D (S-6 to S-9 at times). Makes no difference if the car is on or off! I'd be interested in hearing from any Prius/HF users, and what experiences they have with eliminating noise. PM: kf4hrkf4hr@yahoo.com
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by VE3XKD on March 17, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hi

The high voltage system in the 05 Prius is loaded with HF harmonics. I need to bypass these to ground. It is still winter here (minus 15 tonight) and I have been unable to work outside on my Prius. I also recevied some 3m copper foil over the winter and will shield the COP system.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KE7EIQ on March 17, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I would STRONGLY advise AGAINST such a course of action. The HV systems are designed to be completely isolated from chassis ground in these vehicles. This is a primary safety feature of these systems, and breaching the orange cables will compromise it.

The point of the original article is that we can't use the tried and true solutions to quiet noise in these vehicles...it will take a great deal of care and consideration to come up with safe and effective ways to get the noise under control.
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KG9H on June 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hi.
I am interested in your install.
I ahve an 06 Prius and want to install my old 706MKIIG
Operate on 40 and 20, ssb and cw
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KG9H on June 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Gary,
Did you get the 706 installed yet?
I have an 06 and want to install my 706MKIIG
Frank KG9H
frank@electronicinstrument.com
 
RE: The Hybrid Automobile and the Future of Amateu  
by KG9H on June 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
How is your project going with the Prius?
I just purchased an 06 and want to mount my 706 inside.
Frank
KG9H
frank@electronicinstrument.com
 
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