BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
Scott Schultz (N0IU)
on
November 9, 2005
View comments about this article!
So you think the ARRL is making great strides with the FCC in dealing with the interference issues caused by Broadband over Power Lines? Maybe the ARRL is focusing on the wrong government agency. I ran across this Power Point presentation on the National Telecommunications and Information Agency's (NTIA) website. It is a presentation given by Assistant Secretary Michael Gallagher discussing Promoting Broadband Deployment Across America at the Western Telecommunications Alliance 2005 Annual Conference in Phoenix, Arizona, on November 7, 2005.
Today is November 9, 2005. As of two days ago, it does not appear as if BPL even has a bad cough much less is in danger of dying any time soon!
Link to the NTIA presentation:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/speeches/2005/MGallagher_WTA_11072005_files/frame.htm
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BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by KG4RUL on November 9, 2005
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Yes it does promote BPL but, it also brings in other technologies as viable system architectures. In the lists of funded bordband development, I see no specific mentions of BPL as the preferred infrastructure. It is not as dire as the article author might have you believe.
Dennis KG4RUL
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BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by K4RAF on November 9, 2005
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Promote it all they want, speed is the need.
BPL has nothing to offer over defacto consumer DSL, let alone cable or fiber speeds.
Anyone who is following wireless knows that well within 2 years, the explosion of 802.16 WiMAX, 3G & UMTS will spike US BPL in the dirt. The infrastructure & maintenance costs make wireless the most efficient in the lot. Then there is "upgrabability"...
k4raf@yahoo.com
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BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N6AFV on November 9, 2005
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I agree with the first response - the presentation didn't seem to be promoting BPL per se, but showing that it is one of the technologies being considered. I DID notice that on the map showing areas where BPL is being implemented, there is a spot near Reno NV (close to Carson City, where I live) where Sierra Pacific (local utility) is supposedly running BPL. I wonder if that could be the source of the amazingly high noise levels around here. Sometimes I have s7-s9 noise levels. What is interesting is that the noise has a characteristic harsh "buzz" that covers a very wide frequency range. Anyone else in Carson City/Reno have trouble with this?
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BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N9ESH on November 9, 2005
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It is around here. Thanks to a near sighted friend with a .308.
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by W9WHE-II on November 10, 2005
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WAIT JUST A SECOND!
I thought the almighty ARRL proclaimed that BPL is a "flawed technology" that "won't work". After all, ED Hare and ARRL know more about this stuff then IBM, Motorola & Matshusta. THEN, ARRL demanded that FCC shut down BPL systems. Heck, ARRL even threatened to sue FCC in Federal court.
After all that, you mean to suggest that BPL is still alive? You mean that FCC is not cowering in fear of the almighty and all powerful ARRL? No way. How can that be?
W9WHE
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by KC8VWM on November 10, 2005
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Although BPL marketing and consumer presentation seems like a great success, the futile BPL technology is actually floundering like a dying fish out of water in the wake of more competetive and better improved communication technologies that are now on the future horizon.
BPL technology is destined to become obsolute before it even has a chance to really get started.
Don't worry, the giant telco competition will do a good enough job of making sure BPL gets quashed into the ground long before we ever need to worry about it.
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N7UQA on November 10, 2005
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As long as we have a government who places grossly under qualified "political appointees" in areas where they have no busyness being we will always have this problem. The NTIA new this and were told to shut up, play ball and NOT to make BPL look bad. Waiting for the market to decide the course of BPL is plainly unacceptable. Part 15 was put into place for very good reasons, as far as I'm concerned, our "political appointees" have watered part 15 down to the point where it is ineffective. Part 15 devices interfering with licensed services used to be a serious offense, now it seems to be nothing more than a slap on the wrist if anything.
While the FCC still enforces some of part 15 such as electric blankets, battery chargers and power line interference they flatly ignore valid BPL interference complaints. As an example, I recently had to mail the owner of a piece of property that is adjacent to mine. I was receiving severe interference that was almost as bad as BPL. The interference consisted of very strong carriers that had strong AM and FM 60Hz components, they were 20kHz wide and spaced 60kHz apart. They spanned from 400kHz to 60Mhz and had amplitudes on the low bands of 100uV to 24mV in strength. It turned out to be a DC-AC modified sine wave power inverter that was operating 70ft away and was so called part 15 compliant.
We need an FCC that is back to basics, staffed by engineers, has the nads to tell industry and special interests NO and have the back bone to back it up. To hold manufactures liable for importing non-compliant devices, to quash Mickey Mouse duct tape and bailing wire Internet delivery methods and to use REAL enforcement on chronic rules violators.
Craig - N7UQA
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by W9WHE-II on November 10, 2005
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KC8VWM writes:
"the futile BPL technology is actually floundering like a dying fish out of water...."
Charles, tell that to the thousands of people currently getting their internet VIA BPL, like those in Cincinatti. Tell that to engineers at Motorola and Matshusta that have made it work. Contrary to ARRL's assessment, BPL DOES WORK and delivers internet service and non-hams actually like it. (Gasp!) While not yet growing by leaps and bounds, BPL is neither "futile" nor "floundering".
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
ARRL has not and cannot kill BPL, no matter what they may want you to believe. We need to find ways to influence the standards and deal with it.
W9WHE
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BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N0XMZ on November 10, 2005
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K4RAF is right. On just about every tech. website where broadband internet is discussed, BPL isn't even mentioned, except for the occasional article of some government-subsidized test in some town every here and there that has been sold a bill of goods.
Wireless internet protocols like WiMAX are poised to sweep the nation in a big way. It's the ONLY technology that can really serve the rural folks in a cost-effective manner. BPL is a joke, about as worthless as PBS.
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N0IU on November 10, 2005
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All of you people who are saying that BPL is dying seem to be overlooking one important fact; George Bush’s name is all over this presentation. Remember, this is the same guy who took us into Iraq. His plans don’t have to be reasonable. His plans don’t have to make sense. His plans don’t have to be economically viable. His plans don’t have to be technically feasible. The administration wants high speed Internet especially out in the rural areas and “NO” is not an acceptable answer. If it turns out not to be economically viable, then the government’s most likely solution will be to provide subsidies to those providers to make sure they don’t lose money.
While other technologies were mentioned in the presentation, more space was devoted to BPL than any other.
“We need to get broadband to more Americans... one great opportunity is to spread broadband throughout America via our power lines.”
— President George W. Bush, US Department of Commerce, June 24, 2004
He didn't say WiFi, WiMax or WiNot! He specifically said broadand via power lines. Don't tell me why it won't work, tell him!
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by KC8VWM on November 10, 2005
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BPL DOES WORK and delivers internet service and non-hams actually like it.
----
I didn't say BPL doesn't work. I am saying that it doesn't function as well, or is cost effective for consumers as originally proposed.
Consumers are smart and will soon figure out that BPL isn't the bargain they originally hoped for.
Giant BPL competitors will soon figure this out too. They will compete against BPL providers crushing them like a steamroller running over an ant.
This will come to light when giant telco's (ie. Verizon or SBC) find out that they can gain even a slight competitive advantage over these small "do nothing for your money" BPL providers that exist today. The big dogs intended objective will be to gain the current BPL subscriber piece of the pie.
...Good Riddens BPL. You - are - done, because you neither have the money, nor the technology to compete against the big dog telco's on the block.
So, as the Verizon commercial always says, "It's about the network!"
( I like that commercial, it reminds me of BPL vs the Big Dogs )
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N7UQA on November 10, 2005
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Now while I commend company's like Motorola on making a concerted effort to come up with a BPL system that doesn't trash the amateur HF bands I still would not subscribe to the service. And most certainly would not subscribe to BPL services currently in operation in places like Cottonwood Arizona. I live in a very rural area of Washington state, my only choices are satellite, dial-up and Verizons National Access (RTT1) via my cell phone. My average speed is about three times the speed of dial-up, this is enough for doing e-mail and general web surfing. While not super fast, it's enough to download some files in a reasonable time.
There is another service that is penetrating my area, it's called Clear Wire. It's a WiMax like service that provides megabit plus connection speeds, is portable and cannot be brought to a screeching halt from arcing power line hardware and radio transmissions like BPL can. I have even used T-Mobile hot spots at Starbucks, it's a nice service if you spend a lot of time on the road and like to hang out drinking coffee.
BPL is a dinosaur, it just doesn't know it yet. It will never become popular and will never compete with xDSL, WiMax, Cable, EVDO, RTT1 or Clear Wire. End users want bandwidth, and BPL is never going to deliver it. If you really want to know how all this BPL BS got started in the first place and how our own government bought it hook, line and sinker read the article below, then come to your own conclusion.
http://www.dallas.net/~jvpoll/bpl/
Craig - N7UQA
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N0IU on November 11, 2005
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I see lots of comments about how BPL is not working. Believe me, I am not a fan of BPL any more than the next guy because of the potential interference with ham radio. There seems to be many people here who are speaking from positions of authority regards to the iminent death of BPL. Maybe they work for power distribution companies or some of the alternate Internet delivery systems.
Someone in the administration is still convinced that BPL is one of the viable solutions for providing Internete access especially in rural areas. Maybe they are just misinformed (which is not beyond the realm of possibility), but I am from Missouri and would like to know the your sources of your information that back up your position that BPL is on its way out.
Boardroom memos?
Magazine articles?
N�IU
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N0IU on November 11, 2005
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Sorry for all the typos and grammar mistakes. I wrote this at 5:00 AM after working the graveyard shift
N0IU
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by KC8VWM on November 11, 2005
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am from Missouri and would like to know the your sources of your information that back up your position that BPL is on its way out.
----------------
Economic forecasting is usually a good indicator.
EarthLink President and CEO Garry Betty and other
company officials met November 16 2004 with FCC Chairman Michael Powell and Commission attorney Aaron Goldberger and delivered an ex parte presentation
on several Wireline Competition Bureau and Common Carrier Bureau proceedings.
Officials of Internet service provider "EarthLink"
told the FCC that broadband over power line
(BPL) cannot compete with the dominant cable or DSL technology today or in the near future.
Read the link Craig - N7UQA provided it will tell you the following:
MediaFusion is the company that created BPL.
Media Fusion promised to deliver, within two years, bandwidth at speeds thousands of times faster than what's possible with fiber optic networks. They did not deliver on that promise. They have now dissapeared from the BPL scene lately. Even thier website is now gone.
Government representatives who "bought" MediaFusion's BPL idea hook line and sinker:
Robert Livingston, former Speaker of the House;
- Terry McAullife, DNC Chairman, leading Democratic
fund-raiser and close friend of then-President
Clinton; and
- Admiral James Carey, former chair of the Federal Maritime Commission
- Michael Powell, chairman of the FCC
N0IU, This is not just speculation, the future doom of BPL is clearly written on the wall all over the internet.
For example, read the link Craig provided. Excellent information.
The conclusions drawn from these continued and resulting BPL failures both from a technological and economical standpoint are just plain common sense.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by N0IU on November 11, 2005
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Thank you. This is the type of information I was looking for. I wasn't doubting anyone's word, I just found it odd that BPL is still considered to be a viable solution this week. Maybe someone needs to let Mr. Gallagher know what's going on!
NØIU
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by KC8VWM on November 11, 2005
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Scott, your article submission is a valid one and provides great information on the intended direction and agenda the US government currently wants "broadband" technology to go in the future.
The article clearly sets the tone with repect to the overall objectives our government has as it pertains to our future communication technologies.
I think when the information was originally researched and presentred, things might have been in a different light. Mr. Gallagher may have been duped, misinformed or completely unaware of the direction BPL is now headed.
BPL may have been originally given the green light by our government with good "intentions", but ultimately you can't sell a Trojan horse to consumers if they in fact aware it's a Trojan horse they are getting.
Consumers are simply much smarter than that.
In the case of BPL, old fashioned competition is going to be working in our favor.
It will be purchasing consumers and BPL competitors that will eventually decide the fate of BPL technology and not the intended policies or agendas outlined by the US government.
The only possible exception to this would be if the US government were to propose and offer BPL to everyone in rural areas for free at no cost. Since that is highly unlikely, we must consider that BPL will continue to be offered to consumers in the usual and traditional sense.
This broadband agenda presented from the government's perspective highlights and represents a classic example of how our government does not clearly understand the technical issues at hand and doesn't know what the left hand is doing when it comes to BPL.
But then again, is anyone really surprised?
Thanks again Scott.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by K4RAF on November 11, 2005
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Wish you all could have seen what I saw at the WiMAX Show in Boston last month. Wireless is amassing like storm clouds, with companies like Nortel, Intel, Seimans & Fujitsu driving the development. Strictly from a wireless perspective, present, near-future & future spectral releases:
700MHz - "cognitive radio" Non-Line-of-Site (2006?)Licensed?
900MHz - NLOS (existing)Unlicensed
2.4-2.5GHz - 802.11N mid-2006 Unlicensed
2.5-2.7GHz - WiMAX 802.16D/E by late 2006 Licensed by auction
3.65-3.7GHz - 25W@25MHz 2006 Licensed (non-auction)
4.9GHz - Public Service WiMAX 2006 Licensed
5.2-5.9GHz - 802.11A now, WiMAX 2006? Unlicensed
Then add DSL & fiber. The speeds these technologies accomodate, by current default, are far in excess of the best BPL chipsets available. Even if BPL were 'fast', the delicate grid will only conduct so far & far less than many unlicensed platforms. The joke is most BPL still relies on wireless to deliver the connection from pole to premises...
I feel that BPL is clearly the BetaMAX of broadband. Even with low power WiFi, here in rural America, there are literally dozens of new access points weekly around my county. There are also several operating wireless systems here already. There is no interest in BPL from the local co-op....
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by KC8VWM on November 13, 2005
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STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL!
ARRL has not and cannot kill BPL,
----
Newsflash... BPL is already dead.
The cardiac monitor says BPL is in V tach, and the epinephrine and sodium bicarb isn't having any effect. It's time to pronounce BPL as dead "before" arrival.
Thank you ARRL for holding the shovel and digging the grave well in advance.
So who's living in denial now?
Thought so...
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by W9WHE-II on November 14, 2005
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KC8VWM writes:
"The cardiac monitor says BPL is in V tach, and the epinephrine and sodium bicarb isn't having any effect. It's time to pronounce BPL as dead "before" arrival".
Only a trainee of the socialist CANADIAN HEALTH SYSTEM would "pronounce death" in a patient in V tach (Ventricular tachycardia) because Epinephrine and Bicarb aren't working. EVERY doctor, paramedic and nurse with an ACLS certification knows that the treatment for pulseless V tach is defibrillation (the paddles) and that the success rate is greater then 50% with the first shock.
Maby Canadians give up on a patient when the going gets tough, but here in the USA.....the tough get going!
W9WHE
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by K4RAF on November 14, 2005
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"Thank you ARRL for holding the shovel and digging the grave well in advance."
With all due respect, you are giving credit where it is not due.
Since the ARRL didn't suggest any alternatives, they hardly presented a solution to the problem. Even with the wireless steps, these still fall short when countries in Asia & Europe have in excess of 70% broadband penetration nationwide, to our 35%. The broadband industry here is driving fast & hard to bring more bandwidth. As stated previously, infrastructure & its' availability is driving the deployment.
Nothing the ARRL has done, is doing or will do offers a single broadband solution. All they are good at is creating hysteria over 'problems', even if they are imagined. If you look at BPL, the ARRL was too busy reigning fear to actually educate everyone to the sounds of various BPL noises. They instead created 1,000's of emotion driven 'monitors' to report any & every noise they heard while a 3rd party website had to educate everyone to the actual offending sounds. Even that was after the fact by months!
A little wireless advocacy could be in line for a radio organization but I was told the ARRL couldn't promote "the wireless industry". I guess Motorola is neither in the wireless or the BPL business, right?
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by W9WHE-II on November 15, 2005
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"I guess Motorola is neither in the wireless or the BPL business, right?"
ARRL knows more about wireless and telecommunications then the thousands of engineers at Motorola, IBM and Matshusta, right?.
BUT WAIT....wasn't ARRL that told us that BPL was a "flawed technology" that "won't work" and is incompatable with HF?
BUT WAIT....wasn't it Motorola that came up with BPL that not only WORKS, but that ARRL actually likes?
Help me....I'm so confused!
W9WHE
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by KC8VWM on November 17, 2005
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Only a trainee of the socialist CANADIAN HEALTH SYSTEM would "pronounce death" in a patient in V tach (Ventricular tachycardia) because Epinephrine and Bicarb aren't working. EVERY doctor, paramedic and nurse with an ACLS certification knows that the treatment for pulseless V tach is defibrillation (the paddles) and that the success rate is greater then 50% with the first shock.
----
I see you are paying attention in class today.
You get a star.
However since you are the lesser trained American EMT class, (unlike the more advanced Canadian level III Paramedic EMCA class) I can understand why you forgot to mention to everyone reading that defibrillation (the paddles)is used as PART of the pulseless ventricular tachycardia protocol and IS not "the" protocal or treatment used in itself.
While it's true that if the rhythm is ventricular fibrillation (VF) or pulseless ventricular tachycardia (VT), you should initially defibrillate ("the first shock")at 200 Joules.
However, a person's success rate is clinically proven to be in the rage of 45-50%. That is not to say "greater" than 50% as you put it. Also the "key intervention" in improving survival is not based on percentages at all!! It is rather in "timely" defibrillation. Just the mere use of paddles itself does not constitute the idea that you should meet or exceed any particular success rate.
This correction in thinking demonstrates the differences between the more specialized Canadian, and lesser informed American conterpart training.
As far as administering cardiac drugs are concerned, you should complete an assessment and intubation should already be completed.
You would then establish a large bore (#10?)intravenous of normal saline, TKVO and administer an initial dose epinephrine at 1 mg IV bolus and then repeat every q3-5 minutes prn.
...Not bad for a trainee huh?
Yet, your ACLS clinical assesment made a serious life threatening error when suggesting that paddles are the only intervention or course of treatment used when resuscitating BPL over power lines.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: BPL Isn't Dead Yet!
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by W9WHE-II on November 18, 2005
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Charles:
Your America bashing is getting very, very old.
It was YOU that pronounced death with out the proper treatment. YOU pronounced death without even delivering one single shock! You need to attend one of MY ACLS courses. IF you were able to pass the written (doubtful given your Canadian training) you would not have made such a gross omission. How anybody who claims to be qualified could pronounce death in Pulseless VT without first delivering a shock is.....well...shocking! (Pun intended).
And as for your idea about giving bicarb....that comes WAYYYYYYYYYY after multiple defibrillation attempts failed. Your above described treatment funked the Resuscitation test station with TWO MAJOR LIFE ENDING ERRORS. First, you failed to deliver ANY shocks. Second, you gave bicarb before even attenpting to shock, which is the first line treatment. Tisk, tisk, tisk.
But don't worry you do get ONE more try before you have to retake the entire class. (We Americans are so compassionate).
But don't worry. We don't balme you. You are just a "victim" of inferior training and excessive attitude. Hopefully, the better training of your American counterparts will rub off on you.
As for using a 10 ga needle in a code...., you obviously haven't a clue.
As for my training....You have no idea about the level of my training. You have no idea about my credentials. You should take the time to know some FACTS before you open your mouth. Oh, but wait....you are Canadian...."you are superior".
If the AMERICAN system is so inferior, then why do SO MANY CANADIANS COME TO THE US FOR HEALTHCARE?
If the AMERICAN system is so bad, then WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Its time you STOP criticizing the American system that feeds you. if America is so bad, then we invite you to GO HOME.
W9WHE
Jonathan Gunn, MICT, EMT-P, ACLS-I, ATLS, PALS.
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