ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution Database Debate:
from
The ARRL Letter, Vol 24, No 47
on
December 2, 2005
Website:
http://www.arrl.org/
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ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution Database Debate:
The acting chief of the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) is
standing foursquare behind the recently opened Broadband over Power Line
(BPL) Interference Resolution Web site
http://www.bpldatabase.org/. The
deadline for BPL operators to populate the database, provided by the United
Power Line Council (UPLC) and the United Telecom Council (UTC), was November
19. In October, the ARRL took strong exception to limitations UTC, the
site's administrator, has imposed on the number of allowable licensee
searches and to the use of ZIP codes as the only search key. Acting OET
Chief Bruce Franca defended the BPL database November 22.
"Your concern, limiting access to the database, does not constitute a
violation of the rules," said Franca, citing verse and chapter of Part 15 to
back up his assertion. Franca said §15.615(d) "clearly states" that the
database is intended to identify possible sources of harmful interference
thought to emanate from a BPL system. "Permitting individuals who are using
a licensed service that operates on the same frequencies as are used by a
BPL system to query for pertinent information in the geographic area of that
interference fully fulfills this function," he concluded.
A note on the BPL database site cautions that users are "allowed to search a
limited number of times each month." It further advises users not to conduct
random database searches, lest their access to the database be further
restricted. In his initial complaint, ARRL CEO David Sumner, K1ZZ,
characterized the notice as an attempt to "ration access" to the site.
Franca also defended the use of ZIP codes as the only means to query the
database, saying they are easily understood and identifiable and will
provide the information the rules require on BPL systems deployed within a
ZIP code. Sumner had argued earlier that requiring users to enter a ZIP code
before gaining access to the database was "clearly contrary" to the
requirement that the database be available to the public.
Responding November 30, Sumner gamely took another stab at getting the
League's point across. Part 15 is unambiguous that the information in the
database must be publicly accessible approximately 30 days before a BPL
system begins operation, he said. Using a ZIP code to gain entry, Sumner
continued, "renders the advance notification requirement meaningless to the
public" unless someone were to regularly visit the Web site and repeatedly
enter a particular ZIP code. But since that practice "is specifically
discouraged by the UTC's notice," Sumner pointed out, it's impossible for
the public to know about a BPL startup in advance, something the BPL Report
and Order seems to require.
As a result, Sumner said, the benefit of a prior notification requirement,
while limited as an interference-prevention measure, is lost to BPL
operators as well as to licensed radio services that may suffer harmful
interference that could have been avoided.
Sumner said the UTC-administered database "provides less than was promised"
in the FCC's October 2004 Report and Order. "For advance notification to be
meaningful, the public must know when additions and changes to the database
occur," he contended. "That is functionally impossible if the 'publicly
accessible' database is actually maintained behind an opaque curtain and is
only revealed one ZIP code at a time."
One workaround, Sumner suggested, would be to require UTC to make publicly
available a list of ZIP codes and the date of the most recent data entry for
each. "This also would make it clear when a specific BPL system serves more
than one ZIP code area, information that is required by §15.615(a)(3) but
that is not available to the public at present except by individual query of
each ZIP code."
Sumner said Franca failed to respond to his point regarding the error
message that appears when a database user enters a ZIP code where no BPL
system apparently has been deployed. At that point, users are asked to
provide "written details" about the nature of the interference and the
user's licensed operations as well as location--"complete address and
coordinates"--operating frequencies, whether mobile or fixed and a brief
description of the interference.
"Frankly, UTC has no authority to require the submission of such information
from an FCC licensee prior to sharing information that the public is
entitled to as a matter of right," Sumner concluded--reiterating a point
made in his initial correspondence. "If the database were appropriately
accessible the question would never arise."
On November 23, the League told the FCC that the Manassas, Virginia, BPL
system was not in compliance with FCC Part 15 rules because its operator
failed to provide full information to the public BPL database by the
November 19 deadline and the system should be shut down. The letter came
barely six weeks after the ARRL called on the FCC to turn off the Manassas
BPL system because of unresolved interference complaints to Amateur Radio.
Since the League's letter, a search under ZIP code 20110 indicates the
Manassas system has provided a contact name, address, telephone number and
e-mail address. Its entry still lacks details about the equipment in use,
however.
Source:
The ARRL Letter
Vol. 24, No. 47
December 2, 2005
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution Dat
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by K4RAF on December 5, 2005
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"If the database were appropriately accessible the question would never arise."
Typical of Sumner half-speak. Why would you be browsing the database if it weren't for placing a complaint? Another dateless night?
Watch BPL bloom as the ARRL withers & shrivels. The only way to beat BPL is support the other technologies well on the way to having a significant footprints. The ARRL has played this 'defense' as well as a fish riding a bicycle...
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RE: ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution
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by K8MHZ on December 6, 2005
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It appears that the ARRL is being accused of putting on a 'Dog and Pony Show'.
Perhaps.
My question is why anything other than aggressive protection of the laws already in place is not being pursued. I also question why the ARRL recommends not complaining to the FCC about BPL encroachment. (Yes, that is what they are doing to amateurs that are personally affected by BPL.)
I also wonder why amateurs are not pursuing this in Civil Court under their given protection against infringements of any type related to 'peaceful enjoyment' of their hobby.
Just because we are having a hard time getting the FCC to step to the plate, the heat can be turned up on a local level. This adds another front to the 'war'.
I think the biggest error on the ARRL's part is their ill advisement of our actions. They have taken the stance that they are some type of force to be reckoned with and in that respect have side stepped the legal actions that are afforded to ‘the little guy’. I sure do think that having to deal with a plethora of civil suits in many different jurisdictions would be much tougher do deal with than simply having to outwit the ARRL in front of the FCC.
My feelings go out to the amateurs that have had their hobby ruined by BPL. All I know is that if I were one of them the last entity I would contact would be the ARRL. I would attack the offender by dragging them into every courtroom I could and would walk into that courtroom very well prepared to defend my case.
If the hundreds of amateurs that are being derogatorily affected by BPL would do the same thing I think that there would be a considerable increase in the cost to defend it’s use. Costs undermine the holy ‘bottom line’ and it is that bottom line that decides if a project is to be continued or not.
How much can it possibly cost to argue with the ARRL about that which has been argued, almost to the point of being rhetorical now, since the first BPL deployment?
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution
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by WA3KYY on December 6, 2005
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Mark,
There is one probable problem with your approach. Congress has given sole jurisdiction for resolving RFI complaints to the FCC. Thus any attempt to sue a BPL provider for violation of FCC regulations by causing interference to licensed operations would be sumarily dismissed by the Court for not having a remedy available to the Court. Case law on interference cases had made this clear.
You could sue the FCC in an attempt to force them to do their job of enforcing the regulations but you would have to demonstrate that you have exhaustively persued all other adminstrative avenues first. A very daunting task indeed.
73,
Mike WA3KYY
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RE: ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution
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by K8MHZ on December 7, 2005
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Hi Mike,
You may be correct concerning the FCC. The FCC can allow for entities to use our frequencies. They do not, however, have any jurisdiction over the ‘peaceful enjoyment’ of our hobby, or any other hobby for that matter.
If it were me, I would enact some of my favorites sayings…”Preparation wins the case”, “The squeaky wheel gets the grease” and “You can’t fight a two front war”.
The front that is governed by the FCC is the most obvious, but I think, perhaps, not the best. By defending the ‘peaceful enjoyment’ of our hobby we take the FCC out of the loop. We also are now dealing with local jurisdictions. One simple approach to allow BPL won’t work in this case. Each suit in each jurisdiction would have to be fought separately.
For example, if a town can’t get the FCC to make an illegal CB’er stop messing up people’s TV sets, those people can take the offender to court under the ‘peaceful enjoyment’ approach and upon winning the case the local enforcement agencies can now stop the CB’er based upon local laws. Until Michigan introduced a stature that allowed local jurisdictions to enforce FCC laws, this was the only protection afforded to people in this case as it used to be illegal for local jurisdictions to enforce FCC law. It worked, too.
It is my belief that this same tactic can be used to make the BPL proponents life a little tougher.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution
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by W1RFI on December 9, 2005
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> I also question why the ARRL recommends not
> complaining to the FCC about BPL encroachment. (Yes,
> that is what they are doing to amateurs that are
> personally affected by BPL.)
Where did that one come from?
http://p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/guidance_for_field_trials.html
http://p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/complaints.html
Hams that are experiencing interference from BPL, or any other source, should certainly file complaints. The initial complaint should go to the operator of the BPL system, with cc's to the several FCC staff listed in the above documents.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: ARRL, FCC Continue BPL Interference Resolution
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by K8RI on December 13, 2005
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BPL: A couple of points.
First, neither the ARRL nor I are anti BPL, we both want to see it work without interference although I have my own doubts that it is possible to put in a system that is completely clean.
I have to ask, how would we adapt to a BPL system that is leaking? Unlike a discrete carrier, think of a leaky BPL installation as strong, broad band noise. You can not notch it out. You can run power and we have the option of digital but with the noise levels involved we�d be running the legal limit to talk to hams a few miles away and that brings its own set of problems. Digital no matter how good can not work miracles. Computers and communications have been my profession for many years and although digital can aid in hearing signals at the noise level it will not pull an S2 signal out of S9 noise. It's a fact of life that the more traffic the more band width required and the more bandwidth, the more noise. The more traffic for a given band width the slower it runs.
Why would any one search the database unless it was to make a complaint? How about to find out if BPL is coming to your area, or if it's in your area? Those were two of the reasons for the database in the first place. Forewarned is forearmed. I live in an area where several zip codes come together. There are miles of roads where the people to the north have a different zip than those on the south. Being able to search on an area would be far better than a zip and why restrict the access in the first place.
I work a fair amount of Aurora on 6-meters. That is CW where the signal appears to just be a change in the background. WSJT is a bit more efficient, but it still can't copy what it can't hear. If I have a noise problem (and I do at times) I can eliminate the possibility of BPL with a quick check.
I work DX and run the legal limit at times from 160 through 10. I also chase DX on 6, but with less power. The 75 meter antenna oriented for Europe ends within 60 feet of the power line. Reorienting is not an option. I'd probably swamp a BPL system without hard filtering/notching with the gain and power I run.
Sure I could eventually switch to digital, but what would a transmission on digital do to the BPL system? In addition, it most likely still wouldn't be able to hear.
For those that are willing we can work with the companies to help prevent and/or eliminate interference problems (when possible), but every real problem ignored, directly or indirectly becomes a problem we all have to face. It allows companies with terrible installations to make claims they have no interference and they include those claims when going into new areas.
I know there are those who don't like the ARRL, but why take it out on the rest of us?
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ARRL continues BPL crying
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by W4YBP on December 14, 2005
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It is telling that Ed is so obsessed, he has to run to his group for reinforcements. Poor baby
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 04:36:57 -0500
From: "Hare, Ed W1RFI" <w1rfi@arrl.org>
Subject: RE: Dear Members
I am having a running battle with a few on eham.net that claim that ham radio should
simply adapt to BPL and develop better filters to eliminate it in our receivers.
My counter is that if it were possible to dig signals 60 dB or more out of the noise,
we would be doing that right now with the existing, lower noise levels. The logic
of that escapes a few of the posters, of course.
They claim that all we need do to is to have the BPL folks transmit a pilot tone,
which these mythical filters could lock onto and remove all the BPL carriers from
our bands.
I try to point out that this pilot tone would not contain any of the digital data
being transmitted, which would be noise to the system, but that doesn't penetrate
to the egghead level either, it would seem.
Shannon was correct in his theory about the relationship between data rates, power
and noise.
I find it pretty telling that all of those who claim that Amateur Radio should adapt
really can't provide any of the details about how we can accomplish that.
The bottom line is that BPL that operates anywhere near the FCC emissions limits
will create S9+ noise locally across the entire spectrum that BPL uses. Locally,
that spectrum can't be used for anything else. On its used spectrum, BPL generates
noise of this amplitude for about 3/4 of a mile from each injection point. NTIA
outlines that interference is likely for at least 300 meters perpendicularly from
powerlines carrying BPL.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: ARRL continues BPL crying
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by VK1OD on December 14, 2005
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If you are interested in the impact in ham terms (S meter readings, receiver noise floor) of BPL emissions at FCC 15.209 levels across HF, have a look at the graph in the article:
http://www.vk1od.net/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=7&blogId=1
The conclusion is that BPL at 15.209 levels raises the noise floor by around 55dB.
Owen
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RE: ARRL continues BPL crying
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by K4RAF on December 14, 2005
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"but that doesn't penetrate to the egghead level either, it would seem."
No, Ed, you are simply wrong in your approach & do not learn from your mistakes. Your answers to challenges are merely URLs from the P1K site & IEEE titles. Who really is on the 'egghead' level?
Your constant degradation of people who do not agree with you has truly revealed you & your employer to be shrill, marginalized pariyas as time goes by...
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RE: ARRL continues BPL crying
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by W1RFI on December 15, 2005
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> "but that doesn't penetrate to the egghead level
> either, it would seem."
I can't tell from this whether you are agreeing or disagreeing that the premise that DSP filtering techniques can be developed to dig signals 60 dB out of the noise at anything other than sub-Hz data rates is an egghead idea or not.
> No, Ed, you are simply wrong in your approach & do
> not learn from your mistakes. Your answers to
> challenges are merely URLs from the P1K site & IEEE
> titles.
The answers are not in the URLs, RAF; they are in the information in the URLs. Are you criticizing me for merely posting the URLs instead of retyping the information in them?
> Who really is on the 'egghead' level?
Is this one of those do as-you-say, not-do-as-you-do sort of things? :-)
> Your constant degradation of people who do not agree
> with you has truly revealed you & your employer to
> be shrill, marginalized pariyas as time goes by...
Or it could reveal that I disagree strongly with the positions of some of those that have posted some pretty ridiculous and unreasearched things here. Just as an example, it has been made clear to you again and again that I, like every other ham here, post my personal views. Yet you continue to add "and your employer" to nearly every post where you criticize my position or my debating style. Do you expect that such a deliberate misrpresentation on your part will make us good friends, RAF?
I apologize if I have not always been as kind to you as you think that you deserve.
Will you do the same for me?
If all you can muster is "Ed is not being nice to people who are not being nice to him," so be it, but if you want to discuss the real issues here, such as how it is possible to dig signals 60 dB out of BPL noise, as some have suggested, I am open to it.
Ed
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RE: ARRL continues BPL crying
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by W1RFI on December 15, 2005
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> It is telling that Ed is so obsessed, he has to run
> to his group for reinforcements. Poor baby
What does it "tell" us? I would imagine that the BPLandHamRadio group would be somewhat interested in a post on eHam.net about BPL, and that some here might be intersted in hearing from more than just me. Many of the folks on the BPLandHamRadio list have been dealing with BPL issues locally, so information from the horse's mouth, as it were, should be of interest to you. It is obvious that it is, because you subscribed to the list. Is there any reason you think that the discussions there would not also be useful here, or was this all just a good excuse to say "poor baby" to Ed? :-)
The misinformation I have seen posted here has been pretty serious in some cases. I would think that you would welcome some of the more positive discussion about BPL that is taking place on that list as opposed to some of what is taking place here.
If all you see is "BPL crying," I think that you are missing a point.
What is telling to me is that you chose to discuss "BPL crying" instead of the technical issues of the post. . .
Do you care do offer your opinion on the issues?
Ed
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RE: ARRL continues BPL crying
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by VK2AAB on December 17, 2005
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You know, you really should get your act together and stop the bickering. We are all under threat and all the carry on does is feed the enemy.
You can bet they read these proceedings.
They probably have paid researchers looking at what is said here.
Here we have seen the international scope of their program against amateur radio.
I attended a symposium where an international proponent stated outright that their aim is remove amateur radio.
We are all in the same boat, so don't rock it !
Barry VK2AAB
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