DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
J.Allen Bonck (N3JB)
on
December 18, 2005
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DXE-RFS-1
I purchased and erected an RFS-1 antenna system for DX Engineering. I have been looking for a better receiving antenna system than I currently have. I have been using an amplified loop and short, loaded beverages because of my limited real estate. This 4 SQ system has really met my needs. The directional characteristics are really great. With the array switched to the desired receiving direction,signals for the other areas are attenuated to a level such that you can hear them in the background but they are not of an undesirable QRM leve.
If you hear your call in the background, from another area, just switch to that direction and the desired signal comes right up out of the noise. This systen was a great improvement for my participation in the ARRL 160 test last weekend (Dec.2-4). I usually work about 50-55 sections, with this system I was able to hear and work 76 out of 80 seconds, didn't hear AK, MB, NT & SDG.
DX stns called while I was listening in the NE direction, I heard and worked DL, G, ON, OK, LA. This is a good system to consider when you are looking for a more compact, multi-directional system vs many long beverages, which a lot of us don't have room for.
I'll be glad to try and answer any question about the system, the installation of it and wiring,etc. My e-mail is margeal@ntelos.net
73 to all, AL N3JB
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by W4VR on December 18, 2005
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What is this, an ad for DX Engineering? This is not an article...it's a product review and belongs in the product review section on this web site.
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by N0AH on December 18, 2005
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Well, I have a meaningful question. Exactly how do you have them spaced in your limited room to make them most effective? What spacing is needed and what bands are you using them on? A lot of us have small back yard areas where this system might help out. I'm glad to see the posting here and I hope it generates a lot of input. It is not a product review. It is simply a ham writing an article about a new technology to him and wanting to share his experience. You can't get input to a review. It is a one sided discussion between me, myself, and I. This is a good place to have a forum on this system. Take this to TowerTalk and you get blitzed by morons. It is a good question here and should help unify hams.
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by W4XKE on December 18, 2005
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N3JB, Question here, since this is a receiving antenna system, the obvious question is "What are you using for the transmitting antenna?"
Is your transmitting antenna also capable of switching directions? What radios are you using with your system? Any danger of blowing the front end out of your reciever when you transmit 600W?
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RE: DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by AA6VB on December 18, 2005
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The DX Engineering Website says 1500 watts will blow out the 4sq itself if the closest element is not at least 1/2 wavelengh away from your xmit antenna. Should not have a problem with your receiver, though.
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RE: DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by AA6VB on December 18, 2005
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The manual for the 4sq is posted on DX Eng. website, and it looks like the recommended distance between the closest element and your xmit antenna limits you to low power or risk of damage to the 4sq unit. So, this is not a viable alt. for those of us on a small city lot who want to run a kw on 80 or 160. Too bad, becasue it seemed like a good option at first.
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by WX0B on December 19, 2005
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Well seems like a DXE advertisement to me.
I guess I should start a K9AY loop question "article" to discuss how someone can get the exact same performance with a K9AY loop at a fraction of the cost of the DXE system.
This stuff belongs in the product review seciton.
Sincerly, and Merry Christmas
Jay Terleski - Array Solutions
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RE: DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by K7PEH on December 19, 2005
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Although I am probably not that interested in the DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System, there needs to be a forum for this kind of discussion. The product reviews forum just does not fit.
Often I have wanted to enter a dialog with others on a specific product. The product reviews are often either very pro or very con -- real usable information or answers to particular questions are not available. And, the product reviews forum manager would not like to have discussion in the middle of the forum.
You see this kind of discussion often in the other forums under Elmer or Antennas or whatever but it is not as visible. Maybe one solution is to support a discussion thread off of the product reviews themselves. Yes, that sounds like a good idea.
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RE: DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by KG6AMW on December 19, 2005
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Can someone do basic run down on this system. What are the components and how does antenna system work?
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by AA6YQ on December 19, 2005
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This is neither an advertisement nor a review -- its a discussion. It'd be interesting to know, for example, if anyone has found a way to reduce the minimum RX-TX antenna separation by modifying the RX system.
I don't have the specs in front of me, but I recall that DX Engineering claims RX performance to be substantially better than K9AY, flag, and pennant configurations. It would be helpful to discuss actual performance with users of the DX Engineering product.
Those of you representing other suppliers are free to start similar threads; your attempted interference in this one is not appreciated.
73,
Dave, AA6YQ (not affiliated with any supplier)
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by N0ODK on December 19, 2005
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HELLO!
I do not think this could be an ad. But, I would like to know more details and info not for the DX Eng part but the Four Square part. I wanted one for 160M and have 3 acres but thought the same about my 300 foot dipole being to close. I will have to look up a 1/2 wavelength.
I was very interested in the K9AY antenna and might buy their control boxes after the new year when some bills paid off. What I wonder is how they compare antenna wise? Right now it looks like K9AY is two band (great for me) and cheaper. But how do they perform?
How do these antennas function, that is...do you use antenna switch like my Alpha Delta-4 switch and switch back and forth with my dipole(transmitting)? I would have a receive antenna longer away so losses in cable (guess between 200 to 300 feet away)? What cable do people use? I just got a 756PRO so use their preamps in line with radio preamps?
I hope maybe an update or more discussion on this topic for rookie low banders like me. I have to wait till spring for ground frozen now. Lots of time to learn. I don't think of this as add but learning and comparing. I am sure others have these questions and would like to learn.
(One state left on WAS 160M SSB-Hawaii all on 300ft InvVee ladder line fed on 4 to 1 balun. Just finished 80M WAS).
Mike
NØODK
73
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RE: DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by KC8VWM on December 19, 2005
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I can't get over the idea that people are so focused on trying to determine if this is an advertisement or not.
For example, someone recently posted an article related to various brands & models of CW keys.
Does that mean that CW article was an advertisment for specific brands of CW keys? Should the topic of CW key discussion be more appropriate in the "reviews" section?
...I don't think so.
I believe the author in this case is sharing his insight and experience with this antenna for the purpose of initiating a technical discussion.
Happy Holidays
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: DX Engineering RFS-1 - 4 SQ Receive System
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by KC8VWM on December 19, 2005
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Can someone do basic run down on this system. What are the components and how does antenna system work?
----
Required Reading:
http://www.dxengineering.com/pdf/RFS-1P.pdf
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RE: DX Engineering RFS-1 - 4 SQ Receive System
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by KF5ZW on December 19, 2005
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My computer does not allow me to directly pull up a pdf so when looking for the article I found something more interesting. Plasma TV --- Mother Of All RFI Producers. Much greater concern than anything else on this thread.
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RE: DX Engineering RFS-1 - 4 SQ Receive System
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by KG6AMW on December 20, 2005
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OK. Major hint: Dear author, please explain this antenna to us. We need something more than "hey, I bought this antenna and wow it works".
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RE: DX Engineering RFS-1 - 4 SQ Receive System
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by W9OY on December 20, 2005
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If you want a good analysis of this antenna look in the latest edition of ON4UN's book "Low-band DXing" chapter 7. It's quite a cleaver design.
OOOPS another shameful commercial for another ham product
73 W9OY
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by KG5VK on December 20, 2005
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why is it wise to use a vertical array for rcv versus something a bit quiter in design like a large loop ???
I am considering building a 4 square for transmitting
and I would continue to use a long beverage and/or a large loop for the rcv
Am I missing something ???
The 4 Sq phasing boxs I have seen (for XMT)
are the Comtek (widely in use) and the new Array Solutions phase boxs that follow the theory out lined in ON4's newest ed of Low Band book.
You may reply direct as long as you foolow my spam filters instructions
KG5VK@LottsPhoto.com
or here on the reflector/eham
Cheers !
steve
KG5VK
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RE: DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by KB0FHP on December 20, 2005
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OK - if it is an advertisement, where does it go? There is no section in the product reviews for Antenna, HF, Receiving.
But other than that, I would like to see some comparisons of 4-Square vs. K9AY and others. Not just anedotal, but with data.
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RE: DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by W9OY on December 21, 2005
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The "theory" for the Comtek box long predated the latest ON4UN book.
The DX engineering rx 4sq does not rely on forcing phase relationship in elements that have a high degree of efficiency, mutual coupling and wildly varying feed impedances. It rather uses elements that have almost no mutual coupling and from the point of view of the network have impedances that appear essentially flat and resistive over a large frequency range. This allows the relationship between the elements, and therefore the pattern to be basically a function of the feed line length between elements, what DX engineering calls "time delay". The advantage is wide bandwidth, and predictable pattern without much complexity.
In a TX 4 sq antenna the point is forward gain. In a typical transmitting 4 sq the issue becomes element efficiency, network efficiency and forward gain. Pattern is secondary to gain. You really don't care if the South American is hearing you well as long as the Asiatic Russian you are trying to work is hearing you with the most gain. The result of this is the antenna is basically a single band or even single band segment affair. It is fairly expensive to construct as well.
In RX antennas the point is pattern and controlling the various lobes. The ideal would be an antenna that has no other lobes but for the forward direction, a small beamwidth and a variable elevation. Gain can be made up actively at several points along the signal path so the efficiency of the array becomes secondary. This means you don't need extensive ground planes, and tall elements that need guying and networks capable of thousands of watts of power. A well defined pattern allows you to control for high angle local noise and distant noise eg thunderstorms off the back or side of the array etc. So this is the advantage of the DX eng rx 4 sq. In this case you don't want to hear a peep out of the South American when you are trying to hear the Asiatic Russian.
As I said before I think this is an elegant design solution for this problem, and is nearly as good as 40 acres and a bevy of Beveredges. This is all covered quite well in CH 7 of the ON4UN book.
73 W9OY
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by N0GMD on December 22, 2005
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I am interested in any comments the author is willing to share about the physical layout at his locaion. For example: element spacing; spacing of array to other rfi sources such as power lines, house, etc.; spacing from array to transmit antenna; etc.
Also curious what the previous recieve antenna was and its' height / location, etc.
-----------------------------------------------------
I am happy that a fellow ham is willing to share his experiences - either as an article or a review.
I am not pleased that we have to scroll past the 'clatter' to read the information provided.
Please remember, this web site, forum section, review section, article section, etc. all have moderators who monitor what is posted. They can always decide if anything is not appropriate and they can deal with it in thier own way. While some of you may feel it is 'not appropriate' to post a particular 'something', I feel it is also not appropriate, or good Christian manners, to 'get up in thier face' or 'rant and rave' about it.
I hope you all have a Merry Christmas!
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DX Engineering 4 SQ Receive System
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by PA4TT on December 27, 2005
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It is obvious that, before you should install suchs a receiving array, a lot of reading has to be done, there are a few web sites and authors that have been discribing this kind of antennas in great detail, you should watch for 160m and 80m dx specialist.
It is well known that a vertical tx antenna/ array when close to the rx array will have his effect, this effect can be minimum if you detune or make this vertikal " floating " during receive.
while you transmit, and you have close spacing between rx and tx antennas and natural you like your trx, grounding your rx input on the trx side is the way to go, or you blow op front-end, i had that a few years ago on 80m with an ts850, vetical tx, beverage rx,po 1kw, spacing between rx/ tx antenna 1/4 wave,
for the moment i,m working out a 4sq receiving array on 80 m with 90 degrees spacing element lengt 30 feet
i use " low band dx-ing" as guide line.
greatings
pa4tt
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