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Do We Complain Too Much?
J R (NC5C)
on
February 18, 2006
View comments about this article!
Do we as hams complain too much?
I just read a radio review where the person who submitted the article complained that the 2nd from the top of the line radio from Icom cost $3000. Next was a complaint that it wouldn't be very long before they bring out a newer version of the radio.
Then this complaint: “How about radio manufacturers actually putting the power supply back where it belongs (IN the radio) and not charging an additional $300 for a power supply just to have the ability to use that same radio.”
I for one don't believe $3000 is too much to pay for a top line radio and as far as power supplies I have several that have been online for years and powered many radios that I don't even remember their model number. Does the writer believe the price will drop below $3000 if they include a power supply. I had rather buy one good power supply and be done with it rather than paying for a built in supply every time I buy a new radio.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WA8EBM on February 18, 2006
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I do not believe the person that wrote the review on the Pro3 owned one or comprehended that the matching supply was merely a fancy 12 volt supply offered by Icom. Perhaps he thought the supply was similar to the ones needed by the high power MK V.
Mike
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K0RFD on February 18, 2006
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Building the power supply into the radio just adds cost, heat, and complexity. More expense and more things to go wrong. My Astron powers not only my HF rig, but also my VHF/UHF rig. And it charges my HT. If it breaks, I can either fix it myself, run my radio off of the marine battery outside the shack, or run to Radio Shack and buy a $99 switcher to tide me over.
As for paying $3000 for a rig, I didn't. I bought a $1200 rig used for about half what it cost new. You don't have to pay $3000 to get a really fine radio nowadays. Then again, if you do, what's that $3000 worth in, say, 1965 dollars? What did a top-of-the-line radio cost 40 years ago? In constant dollars, radios have gotten better and cheaper with time.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KZ1X on February 18, 2006
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Lots of new hams (including the one you mention, who is a Technician class and therefore has limited exposure to HF operating) don't know enough about radio design yet to see why things are designed the way they are. They'll "complain" about something without knowing why their complaint is not really justified. Opinions are frequently offered from a limited perspective and are often not all that very well thought out.
It is a supremely BAD idea (for example) to put a power supply inside a 100W class HF radio, if one has a choice, unless the radio needs it for some reason and is suitably sized therefore.
Why is it (usually) such a bad idea?
Well, for one thing: heat.
Heat is the bane of all electronics. You do NOT want to have a heat-generating device inside a box that is already generating heat from its computer components, radio circuits, et cetera. You want to get all the heat-making stuff OUT of the box to the degree possible. Note that vitually all the stress-related failures of PCs are due to heat and that PC power supplies almost always have their own separately-vented cooling fan(s).
Second would be: switching noise. Due to market reasons (mostly outside the US) it is often desirable to have as compact a radio cabinet as is possible. A 20+ amp supply to fit inside a radio cabinet would, by definition, have to be a switching type power supply in order to fit. I'll be darned if I'd want ANY switching supply, no matter HOW quiet/filtered/shielded, built INSIDE my radio!
I won't go into how adding bands above 6 meters (and even that band) in a typical MF/HF rig is a design exercise that offers several undesirable compromises (FT-736, TS2000) and should be avoided by those looking for advanced performance.
Net of all this is: take many of the comments you read on public fora, such as this one, in the context in which they are offered.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N5YPJ on February 18, 2006
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I think that we do complain too much at times, in my years of enjoying ham radio I've never been able to afford a $3,000 radio, I don't think that it is too much for a radio, just things like raising kids takes most of the money. Things are definitely better nowadays than when I got my first rig that had an accompanying P/S and speaker combo - tube type rig. Todays compact equipment with P/S that can be located out of the way, frequency stability, no warm up time, having to calibrate an analog VFO, etc. Don't miss all of that. The new sound card modes have made communication much more effective in this sun spot minimum, not too mention the new technology is fun to play with. It's a hobby, designed to foster enjoyment and relaxation, if not then look for something that does.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WB2WIK on February 18, 2006
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Some people like to complain. Like my wife. It's kind of a hobby for her, just like shopping.
She's a terrible shopper. I'm a great shopper. Difference is I know what I want before I buy it, and then I buy it and am always happy with my choice. I've never returned anything unless it simply didn't work, like one HP printer I can remember.
My wife, on the other hand, can spend three hours shopping only to bring home something she later decides she doesn't want; then, she'll spend three hours returning it and finding the next thing she doesn't like.
Complaining is an art for some people.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KA2JIZ on February 18, 2006
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Can't complain about a PS being independent from my SG2020. I keep a small PS, short zepp, mini MFJ tuner, old mini Daiwa swr meter, and a keyer in an off-shore location. All I need travel with is the SGC in my small padded gadget bag. As for prices, I think some potential hams of modest means with growing families might be put off by $3000 transceivers...not to mention the rest of the package. I certainly have no objection to anyone who has the funds buying the top-of-the-line, why not. I do think that those less affluent folks thinking about entering the hobby should be advised by elmers that they don't have to steal the kids' milk money in order to participate in this wonderful hobby we all enjoy, regardless of what rig is on the operating table. 73.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WA1RNE on February 18, 2006
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Manufacturers experimented with optional on-board switching power supplies before.
Icom's IC-740 and 745 have switchers built in. My 740 has this option and has never been a problem.
I think this became unreasonable to do when the market started demanding rigs with HF+ 6 meters, HF+ 6, 2, 70 cm, 23 cm, etc. which requires space for additional PA stages- as well as space for large displays, DSP capability, etc.
It can be done, but chassis space is at a premium, otherwise the rig becomes too large, too heavy and at additional cost for what the market demands.
Pricing on amateur equipment is "cut-throat'. But if you're going to pay $3000+ for a fancy DSP rig with a band scope, most people will go the extra $$ for the power supply. It's kind of like buying a fancy sports car; if you can afford the car, you should be able to afford the extra insurance premium that usually goes along with it.
Allthough its always preferable to keep internal heat rise to a minimum, today's switchers are lightyears ahead in terms of efficiency compared to the converter used in my IC-740 which was designed around circa 1982-83. But at the same time, the duty cycle is usually not continuous for most amateur use, so reliability ratings in terms of MTBF isn't really that big of a deal. Military, commercial or aeronautic service is the opposite scenario.
Chris, WA1RNE
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K4EAT on February 18, 2006
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I dont mind when people complain -- thats fine ..
but I have never in my life found a bigger group of WHINERS in my life as I do with many of the hams on this site.
Holy cow - they WHINE about everything.
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I have a complaint...
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by W1DUD on February 18, 2006
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I (who owns the radio in question) gave a review that said Beware of the reviewer. This was in the context that the person who printed the review 1. Probably dosen't own the radio from the tone of his comments, and 2. It appears the reviewer just was licenced a few months ago ie. a tech. Even if he owned the radio the individual would be limited to recieve only status. My comments about this were deleted (so much for letting the facts get in the way). BTW is this new amatuer privy of the new radio Icom is about to be produced??? Maybe I shoud have waited for a PRO IIII coming out soon!!!
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KQ6EA on February 18, 2006
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I don't mind when people complain about things are truly bad, wrong, or just plain STOOPID. But when people do the "Monday Morning Quarter-Backing", without having any experience in real-world design work, or when the tone of their "review" here seems to indicate they don't even own the product, then that's pretty annoying.
And yes, some of the reviews here trivialize and nit-pick to the extreme.
Complaining as art? Gesh....some people here attempt to elevate it to a science!
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K2WH on February 18, 2006
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Are you serious. Foret about the equipment, this site is one big bitch and complaint center.
Hams are the biggest bunch of whiners and complainers. Always arguing or bickering about how much it costs to do anything. Even when ARRL raised the price of QST, many hams went through the roof with threats to leave ARRL.
Me, I don't bitch or whine about anything except, this site and QRZ.COM which is frequented by mind numbed robots and rigless hams. These sites are the darth vader's, brain washers of hamdom. I'm OK.
K2WH
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K0BG on February 18, 2006
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My biggest complaint isn't the price as I feel most are within reason when weighed against the value you're receiving (no pun intended).
No, mine is buying a new radio, and not being able to buy a matching power supply. Or a remote mounting kit. Or a different microphone for it. No service manual. No replacement power cords. An included manual with dozens of spelling errors, and incorrect part numbers (the ones you can't get anyway). Need I go on about the IC-7000?
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WB2WIK on February 18, 2006
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>RE: Do We Complain Too Much? Reply
by K0BG on February 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
No, mine is buying a new radio, and not being able to buy a matching power supply. Or a remote mounting kit. Or a different microphone for it. No service manual. No replacement power cords. An included manual with dozens of spelling errors, and incorrect part numbers (the ones you can't get anyway). Need I go on about the IC-7000?<
::Alan that was really funny. I don't care about "matching" accessories, I'd rather have good ones that work. But if a rig uses unique cables, connectors and so forth and those spares/extras aren't available, that's ridiculous. I've actually written service manuals (thankfully, not lately!) and must say they are a major investment for a manufacturer. They'd have to sell a lot of them to make it worthwhile writing and printing. A good service manual can take a very good technical writer 6-8 weeks of steady work to complete; that's about $48K to $64K in raw cost, before printing it. With the short life cycles of equipment these days, I'm not sure I'd bother. It's cheaper for the designers to do a few training sessions for the service centers and forget the manuals. Funny part is, of all the service manuals I own on ham gear (quite a few) most are pretty worthless and can often lead you down a wrong path so far that it's possible to waste hours chasing your tail before realizing the real solution's on the next page.
But, considering how much technology is packed into our stuff nowadays, I'm impressed it sells as cheaply as it does and lasts as long as it does. It's mostly thanks to cheap ASICs and that firmware can be reproduced for a few cents per copy once it's written.
I showed an industrial engineer at Apple Computer the inside of my Elecraft K2. He's not a ham. I asked him to guess how much it cost to manufacture, assuming a production run of only 250 units. This guy's really experienced in manufacturing electronic products from prototypes through full production offshore (China, Singapore, etc) and he guessed $2000. Pretty high. When I told him this sold in easy-to-build kit form for $599 he didn't believe me. "That must be for runs of 10,000 or 20,000 at a time." Nah.
WB2WIK/6
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by W8WLC on February 18, 2006
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Yes 99 percent of the hams would complain if they were hung with a gold rope! A few years ago I played the game having and using all of the top line rigs available at that time, before some sanity returned and I found that with the amount of time I had to operate that the price tags on the toppers could not be justified. I mean you shell out 3K on a rig that gets used maybe 1/2 to 1 hour a day and collects dust after that and factor in depreciation there you go. Nowadays I operate with homebrew rigs, run QRPp at times and buy a less costly rig for appliance operating. I don't have to worry about buying a replacement $50 knob from a rig I am paying big bucks for the status on. Now the above statement applies to me your mileage may vary on this. My biggest irk is the dudes who don't even own the rig and complain about it giving it low review ratings.Then there are the ones that drive a 50K hummer but cry over spending $5 additonal dollars at their local dealers, but then again thats another topic
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N2VPC on February 18, 2006
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Yes.
Whining is unattactive.
Whiners are not winners.
Next question?
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N6AJR on February 18, 2006
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Hmmmm do we complain to much.. Probably.. the problem has it roots in the psyche of the human mind.
example 1 is "I bought it so it must be the best there is, or other wise why did I buy it.."
example 2 is " wow this ft 840 is really great, it beats the pants of my ft 101 and so much easier to use."
both reflect a lack of comparison to base it against. I current have 9 hf rigs, Five 2m or 2m/440 fm rigs, 8 or 9 HT's (1, 2, or 3 banders) and of course the associated junk like and alpha 87a, asl 600, Ic 2kl, at500, z100, z11, and dual cross needle meters and such.
I have owned in the past probably another 10 different hf rigs and probably 30 more ht's etc.
so one guys says the ts2000 is crummy on rx because it has too much junk in the case. and yes it is not as good as the orion on hf but I will keep it because it does have the 2m/440 mhz/6m/ 10-160 all in one box. If I could only have 1 rig this would be it. it is all mose and all band and it works at 90 % of the best I own.
I thought the ft 840 was a great rig compared to the ft 101zd, ee and e's that I owned, but compared to my ts 570d it stunk. But then again the 101's were much better than the swan 350's!!I would not reccommend the 840 to any one, it is a minimal radio, but compared to the ft 101's it is better.
my Orion is the best rig I have for hf, it is a bit harder to learn but has great capabilities.
But the 746 pro is easier to use and has 6 and 2 meters on it, so is it better, depends on what you need it for.
I use the corsair II and the scout just to mess around with, and alternate them on some of he nets, as in turn them on, check in and just kind of copy the mail.
I have ft 857d's in both cars because they are small, and use the atas antennas, easy install, simple to use and all mode all band. great for a mobile.
I have the ft 847 in the truck same all mode all band, BUT it is als big and flat and makes a good table to rest my lunch on, too. it runs to a commet 3 bander and a DK-3 so I get 10 to 80 m plus 2/440 and 6.
I feel that I can make an honest comparison of rigs I own/ have owned with out making the mistake of example 1 or 2.
a perfect example is the alpha 87 A amp. It is very exppensive and very heavy. I wish I had bought it first. you hook it to the radio, turn it on, wait 3 minutes. switch to operate and talk. with the Orion and the alpha, I just talk. using this with computer logging and telet spotting, I click on a spot hit tab, tab, 59/59/ tab tab, the orion in vox has no relays to click, and the alpha uses pin diodes to switch, so there is no click or clack. the radio and tha amp are absoblutely transparent.auto band switch autotune. you just talk.
I thought the 746pro IC2-lk and at500 was a good setup and also the same with the 756 at500/ic2kl there too. these made a 500 watt transciever, but the orion alpha is absolutely transparent and a joy to use.
in the past I have had clipperton L's, sbe's, la1000nt's, 811's and 811H's and als 500's and so on and I still have an ols alpha 76a, but I only seem to use the orion alpha 87a setup when dx ing or contesting etc.
so perhaps the complaints com fro lack of ecperiance and lack of exposure to some of the better stuff.
Another advantage I have is being divorced over 10 years, the kids grown and gone, and retired. I have enough money to play with, and take care of my obligations, donate to charity, and play with the radios now .
I enjoy buying and selling the ham gear as much as using it. SO folks. Life is short, and uncertain. Eat desert first and enjoy ever day as if it were your last, for it could be!
don't waste time complaining, use it to enjoy.. and go build a fan dipole and get on the air.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by W8KQE on February 18, 2006
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Just remember, there are valid complaints, and frivolous ones. There is 'wide bandwidth' when it comes to 'complaining'!
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K8FLY on February 18, 2006
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The positive side of complaining is , you always get attension be it good or be it bad .......... you get noticed! Also how would our dear radio companies know how good or bad their products were ... a positive thing no doubt. if you listen to people complain , often times in the course of the disput you may learn something . unloading the soul is good for the heart & health and if your doing it here it safer than doing it at home where the xyl may show you no mercy !
so keep right on crying ...... ill listen & maybe even howl a little with you ha! all the best Bill
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K1CJS on February 18, 2006
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My feeling about this is that most complaints are just an excuse to vent hot air, no matter who is doing the complaining or what the complaining is about! ;-)
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by W6TH on February 18, 2006
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.
Amateur Radio Operators of today do not use logic and are no longer creative.
Most, I said most on eHAM and on QRZ.COM are very immature (Not fully grown or developed) in nature and educated by public schooling.
Consider the home taught and schooled and you will find the classic type of individuals are the top performers of less griping and better consideration, logic and creativity.
W6TH.
.:
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K3EY on February 18, 2006
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Certainly seem to be a lot of complaints on eHam. Fortunately, not on the air.
Bob
I 2nd Steve's comments. I have zero to complain about since I sold my PROIII and loving my K2...YES
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KA8OCN on February 18, 2006
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I think Hams should not complain to much, If the 3000$ rigs were the only way to get on the air then ok complain but its not.
I think its a Status thing, I know a very nice guy that has a 746 Pro and all he uses it for is 2 meters. I have listened to him for years giving out advice and dont get me wrong he is Very smart, his audio is better than most radio stations. I always thought he was a extra that just kept his old call. I remember once asking him some advice on something to do with HF and that is when he told me he was a Tech, which is ok but why would someone but a 746 Pro for 2 meters? Its his money and his choice!
I have been a Ham for over 20 years, only in the last few years have I gotten to the point where I could afford to buy a new radio for 3000$, but I still have not. I cant justify paying that much when there is so much really good stuff out there in the used market!
I have spent over 2000$ in the last year to upgrade my Ham Radio equipment (Thats still a lot to me) But most it was used, I purchased a Yaesu 897D in what I consider perfect condition for around 600$ It does not have any batteries or internat power supply.
I dont consider myself an expert (I am a Amateur) but it does not seem good to put something inside the case that would put out more heat, also I have a Astron 20 Amp and a 35 Amp supplys and they power my entire shack. Why pay over 100$ to power a single item? Also I dont have any experence with them but I have stayed away from switching power supplys. I have heard good and bad but I know that these work and if it aint broke dont fix it!
Ham Radio is like almost anything else, there is the bottom of the line, Middle of the road, and Top of the line and we all decide where we want to be, we dont all drive 60,000$ vehicles so we dont all need a 3000$ Rig.
As far as what we get for our money, I know that has gotten better over the years. When I was first licensed a TS520 cost around 500$ new I think, I paid a guy 350 for a used one, that was over 20 years ago so that would be at least 1500$ in todays money and look at what you get for your money now, 520 was a good rig it covered 10,15,20,40,80 meters. Thats it. Now even my Middle of the road rig Yaesu 897 covers 160,80,40,30,20,17,15,12,10,6,2, Meters and UHF.
I for one think I have gotten my moneys worth! If you want to gripe do it about the price of antennas, I have been looking at some mono band beams for 20 meters and thats nuts for just some metal pipes but its still my choice, I guess I could always crack open my Arrl antenna book and build my own, Its my decision if its worth what they are asking.
If you buy the best rig available when you are first licensed you wont have anything to look forward to!
73's Delbert McCord KA8OCN
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WPE9JRL on February 18, 2006
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Yes we do. I'm waiting for the Collins Enema to appear on eBay again.....I think I'll order a case this time.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KG6WLS on February 18, 2006
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Do We Complain Too Much? Reply
by K0RFD on February 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
<<... or run to Radio Shack and buy a $99 switcher to tide me over.>>
You better run real fast for that switcher (if they still carry them??), because soon they will be closing "Cell Phone Shack". I have always been a bit peeved lately when asked, "what kind of cell phone/provider do you have?", when paying for a couple of LED's for a project.
I miss the old days of Allied and Realistic, but now... can't really say that I'm sad to see RS go bye-bye.
73
Mike
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WA8MEA on February 18, 2006
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I am surprised Phil let that review stand. He usually "kills" reviews that don't stick to the technical side of things.
Phil axed a positive ad on one of my antennas years ago. The fella did comment on the operation and the contacts he had made. But because the ham mentioned that I went to his house to help him put it up, it wasn't a real review.
You almost have to read between the lines with Eham reviews. If you see mostly fours and fives, chances are the product is an FB deal. If you see a lot of 0's, 1's and 2's....stay away.
If you see a bunch of fives, followed by a string of 0's and 1's, chances are it's a former employee of the company who was just fired for slackin'....and now he and his buddies want to get even with the company.
Why do we even need to complain? We have the greatest access to the greatest variety of equipment in our amateur radio history....thanks to the Internet. If you don't want a $3000 rig, go to Eham classifieds or QTH.com classifieds and find an old Heathkit HW-101 for a couple of hundred. Or buy a single bander QRP Cub for $79.
That's why I hate calling my seventy-five year old mother. All she does is complain. (And she's not even a ham.) Do you think it might be an age thing????
;-)
73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
wa8mea@hotmail.com
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KG6WLS on February 18, 2006
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Astron RS35M power supply suits my needs for 706MKIIG, 746PRO, FT-7800R, illuminated meters, etc. No more extra PS's/wall warts and no more complaints. Sell the extras at a swap meet. Some else can use them.
73
Mike
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KX8N on February 18, 2006
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Yes, hams indeed do complain too much. And it's certainly not limited to power supplies or the prices of radios. Read around this site and you will see extensive complaining about:
every radio and antenna manufacturer
the smell and manners of hams at Dayton Hamvention
new hams
old hams
DX hams
Echolink
Winlink
controlling radio's with your computer
code
no-code
ATV operators
SSB operators
ARRL O.O.'s
the ARRL itself
the FCC
suitsat
Radio Shack
It's endless. If we spent half the energy used in complaining for getting on the air, the bands would be absolutely packed.
I guess that's life. It's easier to complain about what's wrong than it is to actually fix it.
Dave
KX8N
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KC2MMI on February 18, 2006
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Well, 20+ years ago one of the top radios in the US was the Drake TR7 and, funny thing, the power supply was external (PS7, outweighed the radio about ten to one<G> already.
External power supplies are nothing new. Internal power supplies penalize those of us who might want a rig on a boat, in a car, or running off backup power sources.
Not to mention a much more practical reason: There are some certifications (UL comes to mind) for electrical devices that have to be performed for EACH MODEL unless they are performed for a separate power supply. Breaking out the power supply and having only one certification instead of tow, or six, or ten, can save manufacturer six figures in certication fees.
They'd have to sell a LOT of radios to break even against that. Same reason you find wall warts on inkjet printers and other devices today--they get separately certified and big money gets saved.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KG6WLS on February 18, 2006
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<<I guess that's life. It's easier to complain about what's wrong than it is to actually fix it.>>
You nailed that one.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KILOWATT on February 18, 2006
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I think most of the complaining stems from the fact that we all would like to own the best. Or at least what we perceive to be the best. Many new amateurs drool at the thought of the "mega-station" and then cringe in horror when they see the price tag associated with such a station. Hence the complaining about cost.
I make a decent living and yet operate a modest station. K2 and TT Corsair II fed to a random loop via a Palstar 1500CV. I could buy the bigger rigs but then mine and the wife's cars might be repossessed or we could lose our house. If you'll notice, most of the "big gun" stations are usually owned by;
a: Retirees that have worked all their lives and paid their dues and NOW they can own that dream station. Good for them.
b: The disabled whose only contact with the world around them is their hobby. Amateur radio.
c: Folks that just plain "make damn good money!" And kudos to them too! Expensive toys should be incentive for others to strive harder in life.
I know that one day I'll own that "mega-station". In the meantime I'll keep striving harder and paying my dues and be happy with my modest station.
Patience is a virtue.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N6AJR on February 18, 2006
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not often do Kilowatt and I agree, but you hit this one on the head..
I am old, disabled, retired, and this is 50% of my life, I worked hard for most of my life so far and now have " more than enough" so I can play.. it is fun,
and thanks to my friends, who put up the towers, antennas and built the station. they are the real prize inham radio.. thanks guys...
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KILOWATT on February 18, 2006
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>not often do Kilowatt and I agree, but you hit this one on the head..
I am old, disabled, retired, and this is 50% of my life, I worked hard for most of my life so far and now have " more than enough" so I can play.. it is fun,
and thanks to my friends, who put up the towers, antennas and built the station. they are the real prize inham radio.. thanks guys...<
Well hell, dude. I'm not ALWAYS pissed off. I do lighten up on occasion. hihi!
Hope you're having a great time in your retirement. You earned it.
I should have added another category.
d: Those hams that live for the hobby. They have acquired the "mega-stations" because they spend every extra dollar they make on ham radio. If I didn't spend as much as I do on sports cars, motorcycles and beer I'd probably have the VOA here at my QTH.
Hobbies are expensive. Bottom line. My dad is a ham and also an amateur photographer and let me tell you, his photography hobby is even more expensive. Believe it or not.
73's
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KQ6EA on February 18, 2006
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Kilowatt has a very good point. I used to race SCCA sports cars. Ever pay for a blue-printed engine with all the good parts in it? That's about TWO ICom 7800's. I used to fly light planes, too, until my two partners put our 150 Aerobat about ten feet into a corn field. Ever pay for *just* an annual inspection? That's at least a Mark-V Yaesu. And a good friend of mine just paid FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS for a bicycle! With what I've spent on digital photography equipment in the last year alone, I could have bought a loaded FT-9000DX. Come to think of it, what's a full set of pro-quality golf clubs go for these days?
Yes, hobbies are expensive if you want top-of-the-line equipment. As the old adage goes "The Difference Between The Men And The Boys Is The Price Of Their Toys".
BTW...what *is* the inflation-adjusted price in 2006 dollars for a full Collins S-Line station these days? I remember a couple of local hams who had them when I was a Novice. I don't remember any of the other local hams whining about the cost, or criticizing the purchase of it.......
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N7BUI on February 18, 2006
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Amazing. A person writes a review from THEIR perspective and experience. Then along comes another who doesn't agree with a mediocre review and proceeds to put down the writer.
Personal slams have no business being written into a review of any equipment.
A look at the IC-7000 reviews will show quite a bit of this going on in the past three months since the radio was brought to market. If your particular radio is working good then we are all happy for you. But don't discount issues brought up by other owners as being nonsense just because your not experiencing them.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K2TL on February 19, 2006
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I think we are married to the same woman. Can I send you her bills then?
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by W9OY on February 19, 2006
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This whole freakin article looks to me like people complaining about complaining.
So I guess I'm complaining about complaining about complaining!
73 W9OY
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K4EAT on February 19, 2006
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Its not really the complaining and whining that gets me -- its the self proclaiming importance we give ourselves as a hobby --
I can't wait to someone asks the question
"DO YOU THINK THAT WE ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERANCE ANY LONGER IN NATURAL DISASTERS AND EMERGENCIES OR DO YOU THINK TECHNOLOGY HAS LEFT US BEHIND AND WE SIMPLY TAKE CREDIT FOR THINGS WE DON'T INFLUENCE"
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K8MHZ on February 19, 2006
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"DO YOU THINK THAT WE ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERANCE ANY LONGER IN NATURAL DISASTERS AND EMERGENCIES OR DO YOU THINK TECHNOLOGY HAS LEFT US BEHIND AND WE SIMPLY TAKE CREDIT FOR THINGS WE DON'T INFLUENCE"
Yup
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N3OYA on February 19, 2006
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KQ6EA asked:
"BTW...what *is* the inflation-adjusted price in 2006 dollars for a full Collins S-Line station these days? I remember a couple of local hams who had them when I was a Novice. I don't remember any of the other local hams whining about the cost, or criticizing the purchase of it......"
Couldn't find complete S-line information, sorry. Found this, though, and my Economics minor kicked in...
The following prices were taken from the 1964 Collins Price List, found here: http://www.wb4hfn.com/COLLINS/Documents/PriceLists/PriceList1964.htm.
KWM-2A = $1250
Speaker 312b-4 = $195
30S1 Linear = $1795
PM2 Power Supply = $150
Total = $3390
Using a conversion factor of 0.159 (CPI table from http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:cRO73Tw1i3wJ:oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2005.xls+1964+to+2006+dollar+conversion&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3), we arrive at a January 2006 cost of $21,320.
$21,320!
And that doesn't include ancillary yet necessary equipment, such as microphones, keys, external VFOs, and antennas on towers.
As for the other question, yes we do complain too much. But as long as we keep the rancor off the air, we're okay. I always try to remember that there could be hundreds if not thousands of people listening to me when I'm transmitting. That's a holdover from my broadcasting days; don't say anything on the air you wouldn't say to your sweet, silver-haired mother. :-D
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N3OYA on February 19, 2006
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Oh, and by way of comparison you can equip your station with the following via AES:
Icom IC-7800 = $10,100
Icom PW-1 Linear = $4,700
Icom SP-20 Speaker = $240
Total = $15,040 (plus shipping)
And that's not considering that there's a $300 rebate if you purchase the 7800 and PW-1 together.
Why are we complaining about prices again? Somebody remind me... :-D
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KK7AC on February 19, 2006
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Man am I glad I dont have kids, married a rich wife, and can buy any radio I want!!!!
.....you wont see me complaining! :)
KK7AC
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N4RLL on February 19, 2006
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Dave --
You forgot about whining about people who whine.
I'm not guilty of that, but I'm guilty of whining about those people. It's self perpetuating!!!
73
-- Jay N4RLL
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by W3LK on February 19, 2006
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What does a Collins S-Line go for these days?
Take a look at http://www.wb4hfn.com/COLLINS/CollinsSalePricing.htm
My RE KWM-2A is worth at least as much as my Kenwood TS-570S(G), maybe more. There's no comparison in the price of the respective power supplies; the Collins is worth triple what my Astron cost.
73,
Lon - W3LK
Baltimore, Maryland
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KI4ENS on February 19, 2006
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"Not to mention a much more practical reason: There are some certifications (UL comes to mind) for electrical devices that have to be performed for EACH MODEL unless they are performed for a separate power supply. Breaking out the power supply and having only one certification instead of tow, or six, or ten, can save manufacturer six figures in certication fees. "
Very true. Also you have to think of the time factor too. Certifying once is much faster and cheaper. Also its more than just UL/ETL, you have CE, Canada etc.
There's also the cost in samples to the lab too. Much cheaper to send the PS than a rig. And the certication lab will break it.
This is also the reason why on many consumer grade cheap products, we get the pesky wall warts.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WB4QNG on February 19, 2006
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Yes we complain to much. I agree if I spent $3000 for a radio I would go the $300 for the matching supply. I am not going to spend the $3000 for the radio. I didn't hit the lottery last night. I will keep my $500 radio and my $99 power supply and just tell you guys I am on a $10,000 rig. You won't know the difference and they both say Icom on them.
Terry
WB4QNG
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KC9GUZ on February 19, 2006
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I think $875.00 to $2000.00 is not too much for a good decent rig. I paid about $850.00 for my lightly used Icom 746 non pro and im looking to buy a Palstar tuner that runs about $650.00 new. I can use the 746 on 2 and 6 and im getting the tuner so i can get set up when i pass the code for my General. I am not afraid to buy good equipment and pay a decent price. Id much rather pay good money for decent equipment than buy junk I.E. Mighty Fine Junk (MFJ) that breaks down 2 days after you buy it and install it inline.......
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KC8VWM on February 19, 2006
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Many of the symptoms associated with agitated depression:
Thoughts ramble endlessly, Speech is incoherent, the beginning of a long, rambling sentence being forgotten before the end is reached, spending long hours at a computer, lack of sunlight, and exposure to fluorescent lighting, habitual consumption of dried, frozen, or microwaved foods are classic features of this type of depression.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KD4AC on February 20, 2006
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Yes, I agree some HAMS complain too much.
There are two HAMS that I can think of off the top of my head, without naming names that stand out to me.
The first one complains or bashes the ARRL with every post he makes.
The second one bitches about MFJ with every post he makes.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KD4AC on February 20, 2006
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I also meant to add that I do find it interesting that someone who doesn't even have priviledges on HF is complaining about an HF radio. Wonder if he intended to use it on CB?
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KC7JDS on February 20, 2006
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Hmmm,
Not all hams are whiners. Whiners are found throughout all areas of life.
It sounds as if this particular ham had 1-too much time on his hands, and 2-not enough life experience. As for the cost of the radio? If you think it's too expensive, then vote with your dollars, don't buy it. The market (both buyers and sellers) will decide if an item is a success or not.
73,
B Woodman, kc7jds
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KC0SHZ on February 20, 2006
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Yes people complain on this site too much, but the cost of radios is a REAL problem.
It is a significant barrier to entry into the hobby. When I talk to people who might be interested, the conversation turns to the testing, and no real concerns. When the conversation turns to antennas, people get really interested in my fold up J-pole or the random wire HF antennas. When the cost of a rig comes up, and a basic rig is nearly $1000 new, the deal is busted.
We need to consider emphasizing QRP or other less expensive rigs as starter rigs in our training classes. One thing that might be fun is to include building a Pixie II or some other low power QRP radio and a Pico-keyer as part of the tech license class. Being able to RECEIVE a message via your radio would be required to be licensed. You could work as a team with the instructor and student, with the instructor doing the response to the QSO, thus demo-ing CW and confirming the QSL.
This would get a really small, really cheap rig into the hands of brand new hams. It would give them a real option--blow a $1000 on a big rig, or play with the one they have for a while.
73
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KN4LF on February 20, 2006
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Yes I would have to agree that in general ham's do complain allot and you can see it manifest itself in the eHam equipment reviews. I suspect that allot of it stems from boredom with the hobby and life in general.
As far as Icom rigs though it just doesn't set well with me to pay mega bucks for an Icom Pro 3 and then have to have an outboard power supply sitting beside it. I like the totally self contained rigs and that's why I've stuck with Yaesu and it's line of MP rigs.
I suspect that the outboard power supply concept is a method of making $$$ on accesssories because the profit margin on the sale of one rig is probably very small.
--... ...--
Thomas Giella, KN4LF
Lakeland, FL
http://www.kn4lf.com
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by W9WHE-II on February 20, 2006
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YOU have a choice.
Buy a $300 matching supply capable of 20 amps OR
Buy a $300 Astron capable of 57 amps & running your entire station.
The choice is yours. How much are asthetics worth to you?
W9WHE
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K9YLI on February 20, 2006
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While we are complaining, how about complaining about posters who can't hit the carriage return key
so the writing fits on the screen with out having to
scroll left and right.
Or maybe its the program.
My complaints.
Change the business so that battery makers
design HT battery packs. Just 2 sizes.
7.2 volts and 9.6 volt.
one standard physical size with a standard interface.
Just like aaa aa c and d and 9 volts are all interchangable.
Also all make a battery box for 8 batteries,not 6 like most are
Why buy a power supply. Its one of the easiest things
to build. If you have a license you should
be able to build a supply, Besides that is a source of pride. powersupplies and tuners, build them yourself.
But just like most surveys, its the people with time on their hands that are noticed. The 80/20 rule applies. 20% of the people will do 80% of the complaining.
don.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by NE0P on February 20, 2006
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KC0SHZ wrote "When the cost of a rig comes up, and a basic rig is nearly $1000 new, the deal is busted."
What are you advising them to get? You can get a brand new Icom 718, Yaesu FT840, or Kenwood TS50 for less than $600. If you turn to the used market, there are great deals for less than $350. For that price, you can get an Icom 730, Kenwood TS130, Yaesu FT747, and on and on. They are entry level rigs, but this is for an entry level person. You can spend as much or as little as you like on this hobby.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by K5UJ on February 20, 2006
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You can tell today is a holiday (for some people).
K5UJ (on his lunch hour)
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N5UV on February 20, 2006
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...And to address the original post, yes, the ham complaining about the $300.00 supply is just whining...you can get an Astron PS for a third of the cost. Many mfrs. offer the matching supply in case some die-hards out there want to have a complete station setup. That tends to be a big deal in the used market down the road. And because of this, they are likely inserting some extra margin of profit, just to make a few more bucks.
And tnx. for the inflation-adjusted costs for Collins radioes, posted earlier in this forum. Not that I'm an old ham by any means, but a lot of newer hams need to do their research before belly aching about the so-called expensive prices for HF gear on the market. A lot of really high-quality, solid-state gear cost the same (if not less) than comparable gear from the 60s and 70s. Even your most basic HF entry-level rig (like the IC-718) have split-frequency capabilties built-in. Back in the days of the Yaesu FT 101 or Swan rigs, you had to have an external VFO to operate split freq.
I pride myself in not having paid more than $400.00 for ANY ONE of the 4 HF rigs I have in my shack. Sure, they ain't the best available, but it's proof that you can at least get a decent rig just to get on the air...if you are willing to buy used.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KC0SHZ on February 20, 2006
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NE0P:
KC0SHZ wrote "When the cost of a rig comes up, and a basic rig is nearly $1000 new, the deal is busted."
What are you advising them to get? You can get a brand new Icom 718, Yaesu FT840, or Kenwood TS50 for less than $600. If you turn to the used market, there are great deals for less than $350. For that price, you can get an Icom 730, Kenwood TS130, Yaesu FT747, and on and on. They are entry level rigs, but this is for an entry level person. You can spend as much or as little as you like on this hobby.
-----
The Yaesu FT-894, and the ICOM 706 MK IIG are both nearly $1000.
The new ham is unlikely to buy used without Elmer assistance, and even then, probably not. They are also unlikely to buy a pure HF rig as they can only use the UHF/VHF frequencies.
Buying rigs is going to be added to our next set of Tech license classes expressly due to our concern that the barrier to entry keeps some people from getting in to amateur radio.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by N9SWA on February 20, 2006
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I bought a kenwood ts 450 and a seperate power supply loved the rig unfortunately had 2 get rid of it. Later I bought a used Kenwood ts 940 I love it to even though it has an internal power supply. I guess there's pro's and con's on both but 2 complain about it would be silly. You get what you pay for. In my opinion some think 3000.00 isn't much but my wife would kill me if I spent that much on a rig. I for one think 1250.00 is resonable for a new or good used rig & thats what I can afford & thats what it comes down to what you can or can not afford.
--... ...-- Dan
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by NE0P on February 21, 2006
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For those who think that prices are too high today, here is a very brief history lesson on how prices have actually decreased recently for equipment. I found my old Summer 1996 AES catalog to check out prices. This was from 10 years ago (a nice round number) and it was also at the time when I was finishing up graduate school and going into the workforce. I would finally have money to buy the equipment I wanted (so I though).
So here is a comparison of 1996 prices for several radios to current radios:
1. The Yaesu FT1000MP sold in 1996 for $3000, or for $2800 if you wanted the model without the internal PS. Recently the Yaesu FT1000MP MKV Field (its replacement) was selling for around $1800 new.
2. The Alinco DX70TH, a 100 watt HF 10 watt 6 meter mobile rig with no DSP or built in keyer sold for $900. Now you can get a Yaesu FT857D for less than $700, and it has 100 watts on 6 meters, DSP, a built in keyer, plus 50 watts on 2 meters and 20 watts on 70cm. And a noise blanker that kind of works, as opposed to the NB that was useless in the Alinco-I know I owned one. In Alinco's defense, it did come with a CW filter.
3. The Icom 707, their entry level HF rig sold for $760, with no DSP and no internal keyer. You can now buy an Icom 718 entry level HF rig, with DSP and an internal keyer, for $530.
4. The Icom 706 original, with 100 watts on HF and 6, and 10 watts on 2 meters, with no DSP option, sold for $1250, but you got a free 60 minute phone card! Heck, that should be worth a whole $5! You can now get a 706MKIIG, with DSP, 50 watts on 2 meters, and 20 watts on 70CM for about $200 less. Or get the FT857D (mentioned above) with those same features for $570 less, but you would have to buy your own phone card.
5. The Kenwood TS450SAT 100 watt HF radio with autotuner and no keyer or DSP sold for $1340. You can now get a TS570DG with autotuner and DSP for $909. If you wanted 6 meters, the TS690SAT which is a 450SAT with 50 watts on 6 went for $1750. Today you can get the TS570SG with 100 watts on 6 for around $1050.
I can go on and on, but the point it that radios have greatly decreased in price while adding more and more features. These prices are in 1996 dollars, not adjusted for inflation. The difference in price would be even greater if we adjusted for inflation.
And 1 more thing-Icom's top of the line radio at that time was the Icom 781, and it sold for $6600. It did not come with DSP, it had an internal keyer with no memories, dual in-band same mode receive, and 150 watts out. Today the top of the line Icom is the 7800 which goes for $10,100. You also get DSP installed, a better spectrum scope than the 781 had, CW keyer with memories, voice keyer, 200 watts out, and a true dual receive radio-where you can listen to 2 different bands at the same time. Is it worth $3500 more? Can't say, I have never used either. But if you want to do true dual receive, you would need the 781, plus another receiver, and all of the interfacing equipment to go with it.
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by WA7SCH on February 21, 2006
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Yeah but,
If we factor in the energy savings we get from using the full Collins line instead of electric heating we in essence get a three way complaint opportunity for free!
1. Our Collins S-Line will still not be able to keep up with current solid state receivers. So we can complain about our rigs poor performance.
2. We can complain about the neighbors complaining about the strange glowing that occurs in our house when we fire those bad boys up.
3. We can complain about the electricity consumed by the rig and the heat generated during the summer. Which of course offsets the savings we get from using our Collins S-line as a glorified space heater.
When I got my Ham license in 1972 at the ripe old age of 14 I joined a ham club. It was a bunch of older guys who sat aroud and complained about their health, taxes, and all the other stuff a 14 year old has no concept of.
The good news is that now that I am one of the "old guys" at 50 years old, I can subject our youth to the same opportunity. Soon, I'm hoping my foot will fall off, my goiter will act up and I'll need surgury. All in the name of keeping up the tradition.
72, de Mike
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KA8FDK on February 23, 2006
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I am an old ham from the late 70's just getting back on the air. I was shocked when I started looking around at the current HF radio market. Having to consider an addition power supply for a new rig in 2006 was beyond my belief. This seems to be a step backwards in a modern market. If I am shopping for a new car, I really don't want the salesman to ask if I would like to purchase a battery to drive the car off the lot. That would take some of the excitement away from my new purchase, just like buying a separate power supply does. I would much rather have the new rig ready to take home and plug in, just like I do with a new toaster or other appliance. My advice to the manufacturers is; include the power supply in the radio and add the price to the deal. Bottom line is this should not even have to be discussed.
Richard Mathews
KA8FDK
Moscow, Ohio
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RE: Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KG4QBN on February 25, 2006
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>Oh, and by way of comparison you can equip your station with the following via AES:
Icom IC-7800 = $10,100
Icom PW-1 Linear = $4,700
Icom SP-20 Speaker = $240
Total = $15,040 (plus shipping)
And that's not considering that there's a $300 rebate if you purchase the 7800 and PW-1 together.
Why are we complaining about prices again? Somebody remind me... :-D <
Take out the shipping...AES has free shipping for purchases over $1500.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KG4QBN on February 25, 2006
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I read about half of the comments here and noticed that noone seems to brought up an import point: the economics from the corporate point of view.
Hams make up a fairly small portion of the general electronics market. I'd be surprised if Icom sells more than 100 756ProIII's every month, and more than 10 7800's every month, at least in the US.
This means that it is not cost effective to set up a true assembly line for these products, with very little automation. In fact the factory assembly crew for a 756 is probably no more than 20 people, and that same crew probable works on more than one product.
Because of this, these assemblers are SKILLED labor, which being in a skilled labor field myself, means they don't come cheap. Also, Ham radios tend to have pretty long life times for electronic appliances. The manufacturers know that we want a quality product that we will be able to use for DECADES without significant loss of performance.
Now, compare this to a home stereo, with an average cost of around $150-$200 (mine did cost more). Much the same technology, excepting the transmit function. Nearly everyone has at least one stereo in their house or workplace. The market share is probably at least a million times that of a ham radio.
That means the manufacturer can set up a true assembly line that is mostly automated and does not require much skilled labor. These units are also not designedfor extend lifetimes. The manufacturer wants us to come back in 2-5 years and by a new one, and knows we will do it.
I don't know exact numbers for total hams in the US, but I know that there were approximately 9000 hams in 2002 in the Virginia Tidewater area, which at the time was the 7th largest metropolitan population in the US, something like 7 million people. That is .0011% of the population of that area, were hams! And, at a guess, only maybe 1% of those hams were seriously in the market for a new HF rig of any sort at any given time! 80 people out of 7 million.
Now I will admit that most of my data is approximate and I am no economist, but I think I am at least in the ballpark. If anyone has harder data, feel free to recrunch my numbers.
Another point, ICOM and Yaesu and so forth, are in it for the money. A general rule of thumb for retail markup is 105% of wholesale cost. This covers profit and overhead. But I bet they can't get away with that 'cuz we're all too cheap anyway. For example an ICOM ICV8 2M HT has a price of $129.99 (AES). ICOM makes the same radio in the land mobile band, and sells it for around $450.00. Off of whom is ICOM making a profit? You do the math.
For those people having troubles with their IC-7800's, I work as a field service technician for an industrial machinery manufacturer, and I know that when we release a new product into the market, there is always a period of working the bugs out. What works like a charm on paper and in the lab doesn't always work the same way in the field. My company goes to a lot of effort to correct these problems ASAP, and the the bug period is usually two years or less (don't be discouraged--were are talking machinery that takes at least one flatbed semi to deliver to a customer!) and I certainly hope that ICOM does the same for you. It kind of sounds like they released it too soo, before all its support infrastructure was in place.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by VE7RWN on February 27, 2006
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I love the built in PS in my FT-901. Allthough it was a bit of work to fix when it decided to let the smoke out. And I didn't complain about it once through the whole process. I did whine about my crummy eyes, my sore arm, the hangnail on my little toe........
The built in PS on my FT-817 is a little easier to deal with (batteries, hihi), but I don't get that lovely glow, or the comforting warmth.
Mind you though, I didn't pay 3k for either rig!
Rob.
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KE4FES on March 2, 2006
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You make a valid point IE; A PS AS AN ACCESSORY ITEM IS THE BETTER INVESTMENT CHOICE !
NOT ONLY THE INVESTMENT ! There is the heat generated.
Also any repair work inconvenience. Most top grade
PS DESIGNS are superior to what you find in a lot of radios ! Intergal design requires "both" systems go
to the repair shop . TO THOSE THAT HAVE NOT "GOT
THERE". BUY A PS LARGER THAN YOU "NEED", YOU WILL NEED IT LATER ! IT must have , a Fold Back circuit,an
over voltage CROW BAR circuit, clean out put [hash], close voltage regulation [+/-] at stated output load/noload rating. At the "economy priced" items I prefer the ASTRON & PYRAMID brand, there are others.
Don't buy a "toy". I own several, repair them, even designed & built them.
Charlie
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by KE4FES on March 2, 2006
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me again; oh what the hay ! For the not informed that want a power sply. at "reasonable prices". GO ON THE WEB SEARCH...........
http://aventrade.com/Astron%20Power%Supply.html
http://www.baproducts.com/pyramid.htm
Browse their items / prices
Charlie
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Do We Complain Too Much?
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by W7LV on March 2, 2006
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Owned an ICOM 745 a few years back, with the built-in supply. I found the built-in PS to be a compromise of "one handle carry" convenience vs. added weight. It was a little simpler to carry the 745 up and down gangways than to carry one box with the radio and another with the PS.
I think this is largely a matter of personal taste and operating style.
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