Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
Paul W. Schleck (K3FU)
on
April 26, 2006
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Way back in 1972, before there was a World-Wide Web, even before there was Usenet News, amateur radio enthusiasts on the then-ARPANet organized a mailing list known as Info-Hams. In 1979, a couple of researchers at Duke and UNC developed a system that used "Unix to Unix File Copy" or "uucp" to copy files from one system to another, to make a broadcast bulletin-board system called "Usenet." The Info-Hams mailing list eventually gatewayed to this system, becoming fa.info-hams (fa = "From ARPANet"), then rec.ham-radio, then rec.radio.amateur.*.
Fast-forward to the present, and the newsgroups rec.radio.amateur.misc and rec.radio.amateur.policy are now in complete meltdown (the *.antenna, *.dx, *.equipment, and *.space newsgroups still seem to be in good shape, though). Both forums are almost completely bereft of any topic discussion. Instead, one can find run-on threads consisting of short, sniping, and personal attacks containing obscene language from what must be fewer than a dozen, mostly anonymous, users.
What happened? -- Maybe too many run-on arguments about code, or attacks on individual ham's personal character. Maybe just the anarchy and Tragedy of the Commons that is encouraged by totally-open, unmoderated forums where no one is obliged to obey any rules, and no competent authority seems able or willing to enforce them if there were any. Further fanning the flames are free, and anonymous, news posting sites like Google Groups, Yahoo, etc., as well as any news site that simply doesn't care to enforce any net etiquette among its users. Some hams have even offered the explanation that better enforcement of amateur radio regulations by Riley Hollingsworth at the FCC has had the unintended consequence of driving problem hams off the bands and onto a less restrictive forum to wreck.
As for Google Groups, it certainly deserves credit for archiving most newsgroup discussions since 1981 (thanks to old backup tapes meticulously maintained by Henry Spencer at the University of Toronto), but also a big raspberry for contributing to this problem.
This hasn't happened to every newsgroup. Even though other newsgroups have trolls, there seems to be a "immune system" of constructive users who step in both to ostracize problem users, and continue positive contributions in the face of such troublemakers. Certainly this behavior is not tolerated on web logs such as qrz.com and eHam.net. The site owners simply would not allow it. There is at least one example of a licensed radio amateur who is Dr. Jekyll on the blogs, but Mr. Hyde on rec.radio.amateur.policy. There may even be others.
I'm sure some would argue that Usenet is obsolete, and we are all better off going to moderated blogs. Still, I can't help but think that something is being lost here. For example, 20 years into the future, will we be able to read archived and indexed articles from most web logs that exist today, as we now have with Google Groups? Are there constructive solutions to the meltdown on rec.radio.amateur.*, such as converting newsgroups to moderated status, even if such moderated status is simply a self-approval, or anonymous user filter, mechanism?
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KG6AMW on April 26, 2006
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Well the best way to view this whole web issue is to compare it to a large city in the late 1800's where a dozen or more newspaper operated and you could get a point of view from all points on the political compass. Compare this to the way it was in the mid 20th century when news and information was controlled by 3 or 4 national organizations what you thought and opined about was controlled by what they reported. Yep there are more fools exhibiting their ignorance, but the flow of information is much better. I'll take the way it is today.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by WA1RNE on April 26, 2006
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Hey, this sort of thing occurs here too.
I find that many hams tend to say whatever is on the mind when they're behind a keyboard - versus a live QSO on the air or in person.
Guess the keyboard provides that extra level of comfort and security, allowing one to "hide-out" and not be held accountable for their sometimes rude, crude or thoughtless behavior.....
Unless very closely moderated, forums will never be no-rudeness zones.
73, Chris
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KN7T on April 26, 2006
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I couldn't agree more with this article. In my opinion, the root cause of most of it is the anonymity offered by the internet. 99% of the vitriol appearing in the newsgroups would never occur if the exchange was actually happening face to face. There's an incredible lack of accountability for personal actions these days and it reflects the societal shift that's been underway for a number of years now. The solution to one's issues seems to be to take it out on others through whatever means are conveniently available at that particular moment. It's a sad commentary about where we're headed.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by VE3LXL on April 26, 2006
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Unfortunately this happens to a lot of unmoderated newsgroups on Usenet. The pattern is usually the same: trolls and spammers start flooding the newsgroup with garbage. The legitimate users of the newsgroup either fight with them or try to ignore them, but eventually they get tired of dealing with the trash. They then quit the group, moving to forums that are not plagued by this problem. Once the good people abandon a newsgroup, it is pretty difficult to reclaim it.
What do you do about it? Really, the only way to solve the problem is to make the newsgroup moderated. As long as it is unmoderated, you'll always be fighting to prevent the creeps from taking over. And you'll end up spending your time trying to protect the newsgroup rather than talking about amateur radio.
Unfortunately the Usenet model of unmoderated newsgroups does not work well in the modern Internet. It worked well when the Internet was primarily an academic network and when it actually required some degree of technological sophistication to use, but today, when any yahoo can get on there, the self-restraint that an unmoderated forum depends on is now missing.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KX8N on April 26, 2006
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There are a few problems with the health of Usenet groups. Personally, I use them everyday. However, I started using the internet before the WWW. Of course back then, you're outlets for information were much different.
Anyway, back to my points. First, relatively speaking, not THAT many people use Usenet for discussion. I remember about 10 years ago a discussion came up about Usenet support from my old ISP in one of their groups. We were told that less than 10% of their customers even knew what Usenet was, so they weren't going to invest any more resources in it than they had to. That 10% number kind of surprised me. So there's one problem - very few people even know what Usenet is. If I go to a prospective ISP's website, chances are that I'm not even going to see a mention of Usenet service offered. They just see no importance in it.
Point two has been brought up, and it's one of the biggest things hurting Usenet - anonymous users. I can walk into a group of 100 users, and there's the potential that not one single person is who they say they are. Heck, I can play with my settings, act as two people, and have a conversation with myself. Yeah, there are people who can go into the header info and figure out what's going on, but typically nobody is going to bother to do that.
Now admittedly, I haven't been in any of the amateur radio groups in a couple of years. I'm kind of assuming that by a "meltdown", you are talking about flaming and general anarchy. Sometimes groups go through this. It's just unfortunate that the ham groups would fall this way.
What can realistically be done? Absolutely nothing, in my experience. You can't force moderation on a group - moderated status has to be decided upon when the group is created. When that happens, messages go to the moderator himself, and the moderator has to individually approve each message that get's posted. This is a full time job, which I don't think you will find anyone willing to fill. Plus that would mean the creation a propogation of a new group, not to mention the red tape of getting a new group created. Alt. groups can be created by anyone who knows how. Every group in the other heirarchys have to be individually approved, though.
Mainly, you're stuck. Technically, you could report people to their ISP's if they are flaming or trolling. I'll tell you now, though, that unless the person is doing something illegal, their ISP is not going to do anything about it. Neither is their news host, if they are using a commercial Usenet provider.
With boards like this one, where things are moderated and rules are enforced, Usenet is the only place where people can let off steam totally unchecked and without needing to answer for their actions. And let's face it, there are more jerks out there now than there were 10 years ago, hams or not.
The only real answer is that you are either going to have to live with it, or leave the groups because sadly, there's no way to fix them.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by AB2MH on April 26, 2006
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This isn't limited to ham radio newsgroups.
Usenet itself has sunk into utter chaos.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K6HYA on April 26, 2006
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I like these groups. I'm not sure what total meltdown really means. But, it seems to me that since there are lots of people on the internet - be they hams or not - one can get information on what antenna to put up or what amp will work or how to put up a tower. I've been getting useful answers to my questions. There will always be a subgroup that doesn't have anything to add - so they might throw in some humor or point out a mis-spelling. Is life so difficult when it doesn't follow the exact way it should go? I think a little bit of optimism is in order, here. The sky hasn't fallen. Lighten up,
iggy K6HYA
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KC5TTL on April 26, 2006
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You are totally right --
we should moderate all ham radio forums and only let people who think exactly like you and me post!!!
eHam must be scrapping the bottom of the forum barrel if they are having to post trivial junk like this.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by N8KG on April 26, 2006
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WA1RNE,
Are you suggesting that everyone behind the keyboard
is a coward? Bravo, my friend. It is easy to sit here
and make ignorant, blasphemous, and contradictory comments, when I am not going to get punched in the face or shot by some idiot on the receiving end. Most
will say with their fingers, what they are afraid to say, in person, with their mouth.
de N8KG
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K0RFD on April 26, 2006
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K3FU:
We could all yearn for the good old days when men were men and usenet operated under certain unwritten and unspoken gentleman's agreements.
The sad fact is that usenet isn't like that anymore.
Usenet is the territory of trolls and bullshitters. It makes me sad too. My way of dealing with it is to simply avoid usenet. Because there's no way you're going to fix it.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by N0AH on April 26, 2006
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K3FU,
I'm sorry you feel that way- but you can get help-
Call MFJ for their super duper king size bun warmer that can do over 1,500 watss +++ and act just like an array wiping away static crashes! Yes, travel to Mississippi and meet the King of MFJ and be knighted by the mysterious Martin himself. Then pack your bags! Your going to Georgia to meet the God himself who will tell you how stupid you are in his shawdow. But wait, there's more!!!!!! Your on your way to work stations around the world from you new QTH in North Korea!!!! You'll be placed in your parking lot at work where a pirate flag will be placed over you car. All QSL's will cost $500!!!!! That's not it K3FU!!!!! With cooperation of each motor vehicle department accross Canada, you'll be given a customized call sign license plate- But we are not done yet! You'll go ship to shore aboard your 1954 Russian Destroyer, the CCCP Strasvicthcha, found at the Bikini Island test site, pier 15B. This boat will be radio active for the next 2,500 years for your free entertainment at any time. Even MFJ gear is known to work on this baby! The last ham we sent there puffed up in a green cloud and no one ever saw them again but....now go get em tiger! ArrrrrHHH!
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K3NG on April 26, 2006
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Usenet is a lost cause, not just for the ham radio newsgroups, but *any* newsgroups. Any discussions that were worth anything migrated to email reflectors several years ago. While I enjoyed Usenet and Fidonet back in the day, reflectors offer more moderation control and a more controlled environment. I'd walk away from Usenet and never look back.
I think a more critical topic is the deterioration of ham blog sites.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K3FU on April 26, 2006
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Thanks for everyone's comments, both here, and on QRZ. I admit that my
article was intended to initiate preliminary discussion to start a
formal proposal to moderate some of the amateur radio newsgroups on
Usenet. Already, I have two other interested volunteers. I would
welcome additional interested people to E-mail me before I contact the
Usenet Group Mentors. These mentors would assist with any Request For
Discussion (RFD), and possible Call For Votes (CFV), on news.groups and
rec.radio.amateur.misc/policy. Again, this is all preliminary. I
welcome good feedback from experienced Usenetters, particularly the
Usenet Group Mentors, in the development of any proposal.
When I say "meltdown," I don't just mean that problem users exist, or
that people post opinions that are on-topic to amateur radio with which
I or others disagree. I mean that probably less than a dozen problem
users have nearly 100% taken over the misc and policy newsgroups with
their postings. Whatever "immune system" the user community had
previously - that was able to overcome, or just ignore, these problem
users - has completely broken down. What I mean by "problem users" is
that their posts are almost entirely short, sniping, and
profanity-laden, personal attacks against each other, with no topic
discussion. Nearly all of the posters are anonymous. Many of which are
likely "sock-puppets" (i.e., various alter-egos of the same individual),
posting from a small number of anonymous posting sites like Google
Groups. A situation exists where virtually all constructive users have
been run off and the misc and policy newsgroups have become a total
write-off, serving as nothing but bad public relations for our hobby
(service, whatever).
My reading of Usenet newsgroup creation rules, and newsgroup threads
discussing those rules, indicates to me that an existing, unmoderated
newsgroup *can* be converted to moderated status. In fact, I believe
that comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi is an example of a formerly
unmoderated newsgroup that became moderated (though "moderated" only in
the technical, implementation, sense; see more below). I believe most
people agree that with the distributed nature of Usenet newsgroups and
independent news servers, it is nearly impossible to have a newsgroup
deleted. Even if it were possible, might even be seen as a cure worse
than the disease. Moderating the existing newsgroups in place, rather
than new newsgroups, is justified in the face of the existing,
unmoderated, misc and policy newsgroups becoming totally damaged
write-offs at this point. I've been in touch with the Usenet Group
Mentors already, and one of them tells me that they wouldn't refuse
outright a proposal to convert the existing newsgroups, but they would
prefer instead to have a proposal that makes one or more new newsgroups
with the *.moderated suffix (e.g., rec.radio.amateur.moderated).
Yes, it is possible to reach problem users, even in unmoderated
newsgroups. Most ethical ISP's have rules against using their services
to "stalk," "threaten," or "harass" someone. Some even prohibit
"off-topic" or "disruptive" postings to newsgroups, even unmoderated
ones. Google Groups actually had conditions like these as part of their
user policies in the past, but quietly dropped them. Google apparently
doesn't care anymore, and thus serves as the source for most of the
trash. Recently, I was able to get a problem user shut down, or at
least got him to stop posting to rec.radio.amateur.policy and
rec.radio.cb, but only because his ISP had ethical user policies and a
willingness to enforce them. (Hint to the shut down user: It doesn't
help your case to go on record in traceable Usenet postings that you
don't feel obligated to follow any rules, including FCC regulations and
your ISP's user agreement, even bragging publicly about the specifics of
how you violated them on a willful and ongoing basis.).
Such enforcement efforts are time-consuming and can only catch the
grossest violators posting from the most ethical sites. At the end of
the day, such efforts are more work than just implementing moderation in
the first place. Moderation serves as much as a deterrence as a filter.
Users know better than to step too far beyond the pale on eHam and QRZ,
so the workload of their moderators is minimal. Moderation shouldn't be
an ongoing battle beyond the initial implementation and fine-tuning.
Moderation would consist of a very light hand, and simply to deal with
the small number of abusive, beyond-the-pale, posters and their
anonymous sock-puppets. If it's not obscene, not illegal, not an
ad-hominem attack, not a threat, it is on-topic for amateur radio, and
not part of a stale thread that has already been beaten to death over a
reasonable period (say, two weeks), it should be posted. It might be
necessary for the moderators to start the thread on the right newsgroups
(policy vs. misc vs. rec.radio.swap vs. rec.radio.info), but that should
be about it. One issue that would certainly be open for discussion
would be that of anonymity. The "last name or callsign" rule from QST
classified ads would be ideal. The use of a real E-mail address would
be encouraged (and would be helpful to send moderator's replies). But,
I suppose that some consistent use of a unique, well-known nickname
and/or obfuscated E-mail address, used without intent to deceive, could
be accommodated. With a team of moderators, and some automation
techniques, moderation should not be an overwhelming workload.
There are several newsgroup examples to choose from, not all of which
require ongoing, close, manual review of hundreds of articles per day by
a single moderator. One, sci.physics.research, has submissions sent to
a central E-mail address, that then forwards each submission randomly to
one of their team of moderators. The recipient decides whether it's
appropriate to post, based on agreed-upon objective criteria, and posts
the article to the newsgroup. Another newsgroup,
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi, is fully automated. Moderation in
that case is simply to deflect first-time posters with an autoreply
containing references, including an FAQ list. The second (and
subsequent) posts would go right through. Even some traditional,
single-moderator newsgroups like comp.dcom.telecom have moderators that
will simply shut down a thread after everyone has reasonably had a say,
but before it degrades into personal attacks or off-topic discussion.
Some hybrid of all of these techniques could work for
rec.radio.amateur.misc and rec.radio.amateur.policy. Heavy use of
automated E-mail filter tools such as Spamassassin and Procmail would
weed out from the moderator submission queue nearly all SPAM, problem
posters (checking the harder-to-forge headers like NNTP-Posting-Host),
and obvious profanity/obscenity. This would leave a much smaller batch
of articles to be manually reviewed in a "service" queue by a team of
moderators. Turnaround on articles should be less than 24 hours. This
would be quick enough to keep discussion lively, but not so fast that
impulsive, cascaded flame wars full of ad-hominem attacks are allowed to
grow. I believe that filtering of rogue sites and problem users can be
done surgically enough such that constructive users won't be shut out,
or unfairly delayed, just because they are posting from Google Groups,
for example. It should also be possible to "white-list" verified
posters with good conduct, either placing them in a priority queue for
cursory review, or even posting their articles immediately (this concept
is similar to how "Karma" is implemented on slashdot.org, for example).
This would further reduce the moderation workload, and serve as an
incentive for good behavior.
Whatever filtering, and submission queue management, schemes are used
can be adapted in the face of new or changing threats. In terms of any
automated "black-listing," it should even be possible to deal with
violators on a flexible basis (warnings, suspension, only using
permanent expulsion as a last resort in the face of gross, repeated, and
willful violations). The existing first-time poster welcome message
service for rec.radio.amateur.*, in use since 1996, can also serve as an
ongoing monitor and cross-check. Specifically, it would measure the
amount of "sock-puppeting" that might be occurring to try to game any
automation, and get around moderation restrictions. Large numbers of
new, throwaway, anonymous addresses would result in a
statistically-significant surge in "new" posters being sent the welcome
message, for example. After a while, the problem users will just give
up and go elsewhere, preferably off of Usenet entirely.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KB2SMS on April 27, 2006
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I like usenet, the only way to combat the trouble is NOT to reply to the trolls and morons. IGNORE THEM. There's still a lot of good info on usenet.
73 de Tom
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KE4SKY on April 27, 2006
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The key is MODERATION. I help co-moderate two amateur radio EmCom Yahoogroups, and (knock on wood) so far we haven't had this problem. One group is restricted, the other is open, but well moderated. Neither group is very large, which helps keep things in check. Our members are well behaved and cooperative. A good reason to keep the group focussed and of manageable size. Be careful who you invite or let join.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by VK3ZMF on April 27, 2006
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Long time usenet user here. I started playing with the internet when it (the entire internet) came to this country (Australia) once a fortnight by mag tape. Two months turnaround for e-mail was quite common. Usenet discussions were disjointed and, by the time they got here, quite probably useless...:-)
To the issue at hand.
There are only at the most a couple of dozen or so "offenders" which can be EASILY dealt with via a killfile (or scorefile for SLRN).
A properly maintained kill/scorefile will reduce the rubbish to almost nothing. A good start is to kill ANY post that's made in HTML - usenet is a TEXT only environment. Examine the message headers closely for "markers" that you can use to kill posts from people who you object to. For example the well known "boxman" can easily be identified because he's one of not many people who have "X-HTTP-Via:", "Velocity" and "Turboweb" on a single line in the headers. Just kill anything with those strings on the same line in the header and he's gone. Make yourself a list of "objectionable" words and kill any post containing more than a couple of them - LOTS of rubbish just doesn't appear. Sure, you just might kill a few posts that don't deserve it but you can fill in the blanks with a quick visit to one or or other of the archive sites.
Making an unmoderated group moderated would be almost impossible I would think - it's a much better idea to canvass the possibility of creating a new, moderated group. It's an even better idea for you, via a kill/scorefile, to deal with filtering an unmoderated group - there are then no delays while the moderator is on holidays enjoying the DX at some exotic location...:-)
In my case I use SLRN with a pretty extensive scorefile and I have no problem at all with the rec.radio.amateur.* groups. And yes, I post from behind an anonymous alias - it stops internet stalkers such as the aforementioned "boxman".
[[[Outlook Express does NOT have a good kill/scorefile implementation, use something like SLRN which can be had from http://www.slrn.org ]]]
Ooroo
Mark F...
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KU4UV on April 27, 2006
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I agree, it is ridiculous what rec.radio.amateur.misc has turned into. It used to be an excellent newsgroup for younger hams like myself to get help or other information from, now it is just a barren wasteland of filth and attacks. I guess as long as the morons keep it on the Internet instead of on the ham bands, let them have their fun.
73,
KU4UV
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KG4RUL on April 27, 2006
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The only cowards on eHam.net are the those who post using a pseudonym and provide no other information in their public profile.
Dennis KG4RUL
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by N3JJA on April 27, 2006
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"A properly maintained kill/scorefile will reduce the rubbish to almost nothing. A good start is to kill ANY post that's made in HTML - usenet is a TEXT only environment. Examine the message headers closely for "markers" that you can use to kill posts from people who you object to. For example the well known "boxman" can easily be identified because he's one of not many people who have "X-HTTP-Via:", "Velocity" and "Turboweb" on a single line in the headers. Just kill anything with those strings on the same line in the header and he's gone. Make yourself a list of "objectionable" words and kill any post containing more than a couple of them - LOTS of rubbish just doesn't appear. Sure, you just might kill a few posts that don't deserve it but you can fill in the blanks with a quick visit to one or or other of the archive sites."
This is truly the most effective way to deal with the situation.
I used to read a lot of the OS/2 newsgroups where quite a bit of the same thing happened. There's nothing like an effective Usenet reader (hint: an effective Usenet reader is NOT Outlook) with good filtering to eliminate about 90% of the garbage. It actually makes Usenet livable again.
Trying to moderate a group that for years has been unmoderated isn't the answer, IMHO.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W9WHE-II on April 27, 2006
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I agree.
We have a loss in civility and a rise in acceptance of personal attacks. For some reason, people that can't win an argument on the issues, feel that its ok to launch personal attacks.
But what to do?
Ban them. If an individual repeatedly launches personal attacks, just ban them from the BBS. if they do it on the air, shun them. its that simple. Treat outlaws as outcasts. its not a freedom of speech issue. Its a civillity issue.
Let's push a return to civility and stop tollerating personal attacks.
W9WHE
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KX8N on April 27, 2006
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I was going to suggest a killfile (and forgot to in my original post) but several others have beat me to it. I agree, that would be the most effective solution. You can filter by keywords in the subject, or by the author. Normally that's pretty effective. If someone changes their "name" (in the "from" header), just add a new rule for that new name. I use Forte's Agent as my newsreader, and it literally takes just a few clicks and a few seconds to set up a rule to go in the killfile.
Try that and see if you're experience isn't a little better. Also, you can kill messages by message length. Say someone's posting porn to the group. You can set the filter to delete anything that has more than 200 lines in the body. Killfiles are pretty flexible.
Good luck. I may cruise in there sometime and see what's going on in the groups.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by N0AH on April 27, 2006
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What a bunch of old farts- reminds me of TowerTalk groupies at www.contesting.com. "You all are stupid and I am right." reigns over there. A site Motto!
I think those of you who whine about eham don't realize how good you have it compared to many other threads.
If you don't like the music, change the site- Go to towertalk-
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K4RAF on April 27, 2006
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"The only cowards on eHam.net are the those who post using a pseudonym and provide no other information in their public profile."
And the only idiots are the ones who post comments about eHam's posters, when the thread is about the UseNet or UUCP posters...
Like DUHhhhh?
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W9ZXT on April 27, 2006
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Interesting post and interesting replies. Put up your computers and put up your radios and do something good man to man with another human being. THEN get on the computer and the radios. No accountability is present here on the internet, nor is it present on the Air. IS IT? We are accountable but not like THAT right? Not like Man to Man. What I am saying is don't be disrespectful here, or on the Air, go do it to the guy on the street. Do it when his daughter is standing beside him looking over his shoulder and listening. Either way, do SOMETHING good or bad on the STREET not the computer or the radio and see how it makes you feel. THEN come back to E-ham and Ham Radio. Many of our own daughters and son's are present over our shoulders when the rigs are on. Amateur Radio Newsgroups are not the only things that are Melting Down in this hobby it's on the air also. I don't think that would be the only thing Melting down on the street either, if people talked like they do on E-ham, or on the air, in person. Accountability, where is it? Just a thought. Be nice and have respect! God Bless!!
Nick
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KC9DUX on April 27, 2006
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Valid concerns, but I remember thinking the exact same thing
about many newsgroups in the late 90s. The key is to have some
active knowledgeable posters so the group is still useful despite
the trolls. Said Henry Spencer was such a persona in a few of them.
We all get 5 spam mails for each legitimate one, but that doesn't
mean that email is no longer useful. I'm happy to see that someone
still uses newsgroups, as opposed to various web-based fora.
Thanks to Google we can search both, but good luck finding any
useful information on the latter.
Don't abandon the newsgroup just because the village idiots now
have a global megaphone. Simply don't reply to them, like you don't
reply to jammers-jokers-QRM'ers on the local repeater. They seek
attention, and go away when they don't get it.
As to moderation, any fool can figure out how to insert the right
header in his post and bypass moderation. It isn't a silver bullet,
and with a traditionally open group it will cause more problems
than it will fix.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K3FU on April 27, 2006
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Thanks again for everyone's comments. I am rolling up all of my
responses to the posts on QRZ and eHam to date into one post, duplicated
in each forum, for everyone's convenience. These discussion threads on
both forums should serve as a useful reference to include in whatever
Request for Discussion (RFD) may eventually be posted to the newsgroups.
Ignoring trolls is not a perfect solution:
- You can't compel everyone, everywhere, to always ignore a troll.
- The issue is not black-or-white. Even today, the troll content is not
100% (close, but not 100%). Some posts are only partially trollish.
Back when the newsgroups were healthier, there was a wider range of
posts with varying degrees of trollish content. The best thing to do
for some semi-trollish content that attempts to disseminate wrong,
misleading, or illegal information is to (politely) rebut it in the same
forum in which it is posted, lest it be assumed by other readers to be
correct. The tricky part is to know when responding to partially
trollish content, with the intention of correcting errors, doesn't
degrade into feeding more trolls.
- Sometimes success can be failure. If everyone ignores trolls by not
posting, then the trolls have taken over. Once the trolling has
reached a certain point, the newsgroup is viewed as a cesspool, where
no respectable user wants to post, anyway.
- Nothing stops the trolls from turning on each other (as has happened
on the misc and policy newsgroups).
Killfiles have their limitations:
- Killfiles are an individual, not a global, configuration. Non-trivial
amounts of effort are required to "learn" a good killfile, then
maintain it on an ongoing basis. Mine, for nn, has been tuned over
many years, so I'm quite familiar with them. New users, without a
killfile, will see a cesspool on the misc and policy newsgroups, and
may simply not want to bother to participate at all, let alone try to
put together a killfile.
- The usefulness of killfiles is strongly dependent on posters using
meaningful subjects on the Subject: line and consistent names/E-mail
addresses on the From: line. The prevalence of both is rather low on
the misc and policy newsgroups, due to cascaded flame wars and the use
of anonymous, and ever-changing, "sock-puppets."
- Killfiles will not keep you from reading a post from an unkilled user
but in response to a killed user (usually quoting most or all of the
killed user's post).
- Since there are now so many newsreaders and news reading environments
out there, even if someone provided a "reference" or "recommended"
killfile, it would have to be translated for many different
newsreaders, and not every newsreader supports every feature (We went
through this previously with rec.radio.info).
- Not every newsreader or news reading environment supports killfiles.
The rn newsreader, and its variants, was the "reference"
implementation of a newsreader, whose good features should have been
emulated by everything that came afterwards. Now there are so many
different newsreaders that have significant market share that don't
even bother to emulate the good features of rn (*COUGH* Outlook
Express *COUGH*), that it's probably not useful advice for even a
majority of users at this point. Advice to a user to change his
newsreader is often not a welcome, or even practical, suggestion.
Some users even access news solely through a web interface, like
Google Groups, and can't (no accessible news server) or won't (don't
want to install and configure software) switch to a better newsreader.
- All practical limitations aside, what conclusions can be drawn from
newsgroups for which an ideal killfile would kill virtually 100% of
the postings, as is arguably now the case on the misc and policy
newsgroups?
- A fully portable, easy-to-use, global, automatic, self-maintaining,
and a-priori killfile based on community consensus is also known as a
moderated newsgroup.
"Trying to moderate a group that for years has been unmoderated isn't
the answer, IMHO." (N3JJA)
- I feel this argument would have more weight if there actually still
was a constructive user community on the misc and policy newsgroups
that would lose something if its unmoderated forums were taken away.
There is not. An imperfect analogy would be a broadcast radio station
that goes into an announcement tape loop, or plays an annoying song
repeatedly, over a period of days or weeks to chase off listeners
before changing formats. As with the radio station, nearly everyone
has been chased off, virtually no one is listening, so it's arguably
now time to change formats.
- Even if keeping the existing newsgroups unmoderated is the community
consensus, this proposal can be modified to make a new moderated
newsgroup, such as rec.radio.amateur.moderated. This is certainly an
open issue for the discussion period of any RFD.
"As to moderation, any fool can figure out how to insert the right
header in his post and bypass moderation. It isn't a silver bullet ... "
(KC9DUX)
- True, but "security through obscurity" can be surprisingly effective
in slowing the fools down. Remember that most of them are posting
anonymously via Google Groups, taking advantage of that site's
indifferent enforcement. There's no way to crack moderation at Google
Groups just by inserting a header. Matter of fact, it's nigh
impossible. With that sewer outlet nicely shut off, the fools would
be forced to go to traditional news services, which are much less
indifferent about audit trails and enforcement. Cracking newsgroup
moderation is also far more blatant, and actionable, than just being
obnoxious on an unmoderated newsgroup.
- As noted above, if the community consensus is to keep the existing
newsgroups unmoderated, this proposal can be modified to make a new
moderated newsgroup.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KE7CDV on April 27, 2006
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"Valid concerns, but I remember thinking the exact same thing
about many newsgroups in the late 90s."
Sure, I do too, but -- just like spam mail -- the signal to noise ratio has dropped precipitously since then. On the other hand -- just like e-mail clients -- Usenet news readers have also become somewhat more sophisticated at blocking junk you don't want to see... although not really as much so spam e-mail blockers have.
"I'm happy to see that someone
still uses newsgroups, as opposed to various web-based fora."
I prefer Usenet to web-based forums precisely because I *can* choose a newsreader of my preference and make it sing and dance exactly the way *I* want. With web-based forums, although the implementations are similar, there aren't any with as sophisticated filtering/organizing features as newsreaders. Additionally, web-based forums are simply slowler, since they're always have to load fancy frames, graphics, etc.
I have retreated to siriusbackstage.com's forums, though, since alt.radio.satellite is 99% spam and infighting and insults between XM and Sirius subscribers these days. I'm amazed that at the incredibly vile insults and threats people make on there just because they think their satellite radio service is better than the other one... this seems to reflect society's growing trend toward extreme polarizations: it's not just that you have a preference and other people have different ones but you can understand their choice and can live and let live, it's that you have the one and only choice that makes any sense and anyone who disagrees is an imbecile who must be chastized.
"As to moderation, any fool can figure out how to insert the right
header in his post and bypass moderation."
I remember when alt.hackers (I think that was the one) was moderated but there *wasn't* an official moderator -- figuring out how to post anyway by forging the "approved by" line was what gained you admission into the group.
At that time the WWW was very much in its infancy, so you couldn't just "Google it" and find out how to do so in 2 minutes or less either!
---Joel, KE7CDV
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by WIRELESS on April 28, 2006
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Sites like eHam are both political and technical. When political topics are discussed, people get pissed very easily about everything. People tend to group up and try to intimidate those they disagree with. Everybody knows who falls into this category on this site. eHams management promotes this kind of behavior since it is obvious they take sides in a very subtle and sneaky way.
Because anybody can post technical info on this site, it makes all the information suspect. There are posts by some of the technically stupid mixed in with the reliable content. Problem is the hams that need help don't know what info is valid and what isn't.
What makes this site and qrz bad sites is
1. site owners are too lazy to moderate much of anything. sites are easy to make but hard to manage.
2. site owners want lots of junk on their sites because it makes it look like there is a lot of content even though its worthless babble. This hopefully gets more money from advertisers.
3. site owners use their sites to promote their own opinions by very underhanded controlling of some content. eHam actually does moderate content when its in their personal interest to do so or when eHam doesn't like certain users, they let the site celebrities beat up those they disagree with.
4. eHam doesn't have an official policy prohibiting screen names but eHam will call hams that don't use their calls "troll". eHam management, you are really pathetic. eHam knows names and email addresses of every poster on this site but they agree with all the ass brains on this site that ham calls should be used or they are called various names. old fart hams are as katy as old toothless fat moomoo draped woman.
5. eHam will cease operating when management finally figures out that the site is going nowhere, will never pay for itself, and what it takes to make a self sustaining good content site is beyond their know how.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by WB2WIK on April 28, 2006
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>RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown Reply
by WIRELESS on April 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend<
::Nah, I won't mail it to a friend. I won't even read beyond the first line. WITLESS has spent too much time critiquing others' work and zero time on the air actually making contacts, or contributing anything worthwhile.
::Interesting article, and most responses.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by WA8MEA on April 28, 2006
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I can remember in the early to mid 90's, one particular newsgroup was loaded with interesting people from the field of amateur and shortwave radio. From VOA personnel to owners of small ham/swl businesses, this group was ripe with radio talent and advice.
Then came the "wannabe's" who felt it was their right to be on an even par with these experts in the field, and could be rude and obnoxious at the same time.
Now it has spilled over onto websites like Eham.net and QRZ.com. As an advertiser on Eham.net, I am totally flustered. It seems the customer service goes DOWN the minute an advertiser supports this site or a subscriber donates to the cause. (But I like George Fremin, the Ads Manager, and I won't take away from him because of the rudeness of others.....yet)
I was so upset at a couple of incidents yesterday, that I went to my accounting class preoccupied. I couldn't concentrate on the lecture. I was actually taking notes on my past business experiences: who has given me the best/worst service for the least/most amount of money. I came to a couple of conclusions. But the MAIN conclusion came from OUTSIDE the United States.
So far we haven't corrupted the rest of the amateur world too badly. This morning, I've been visiting the JARL, Australia's Wireless Association and other foreign groups that remember civility and good old fashioned customer service.
A talk show host said something the other night that rings very true: The last time we saw any REAL civility in this country was back on 9/11. What a sad commentary.
Sincerely;
William (Bill) E. Lauterbach, Jr. - WA8MEA
Owner, HamRadioFun.com
ars_wa8mea@netzero.com
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by N4ZOU on April 28, 2006
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I quit the newsgroups long ago. Better alternatives are the Yahoo groups where the owner and moderators have much more control over the group's discussions and the direction the discussions go. I am the owner of several Yahoo groups that are very successful and contribute greatly to the members of those groups. I won't even pander for more group members by posting them here. Only one has anything to do with amateur radio anyway. Just go to Yahoo and click on the groups' link and search for groups that are of interest to you.
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You're not going to get new groups
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by AE6IP on April 29, 2006
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The newgroup process is pretty much trashed, and it's impossible to get a new group passed, so you can give up on the idea of getting moderated groups created.
Usenet's over with, time to move on.
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RE: You're not going to get new groups
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by K5UJ on April 30, 2006
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I have looked at usenet ham radio groups a few times over the years and found the useful content a small part of the whole and unfortunately, not worth the trouble involved in mining it out of the noise.
I've always been under the impression that usenet was the domain of Unix geeks, and mainframe users and is therefore not well known to hams because most hams seem to be home Windows PC users. I wish there were more hams who used linux/unix/osx machines.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KC2JCJ on April 30, 2006
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No discussion of USENET is complete without a mention of the 'Eternal September':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
Some (myself included) consider USENET's usefulness ending in September of '93.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KI4NHB on April 30, 2006
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I couldn't agree more. I checked out the newsgroups when I recently got involved in ham radio. It took me about 5 minutes to see that wading through the excessive spam, flaming and political invective wasn't worth my time to find anything of value. The Yahoo groups may be slow to post a response but at least you don't have to put up w/ all the Bravo Sierra of the Usenet. It's a sign of the times. Forget about civility, Jerry Springer is the norm these days.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K4JF on April 30, 2006
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I don't use newsgroups because they require that you use Outlook. Every time I tried to use Outlook, all my email disappeared (absolute junk software). Anything with that bad of a side-effect gets deleted from my computer.
Never missed 'em.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by AE6IP on April 30, 2006
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it's not outlook that does newsgroups, it's outlook express, and it's not the only software that does.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by NS6Y_ on May 1, 2006
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As far as I am concerned the whole internet has become LESS useful as time has gone by.
Case in point: Back when I started it was easy and relatively painless to start and maintain a page on any of the free sites, like tripod or geocities. Easy peasy! But of course that had to change, and now starting and maintaining a web page without hiring a college grad to do it for you is impossible.
When I have products to sell unless I want to stay with selling exactly one at a time on EBay, I will have to advertise in print in QST, and maintain a mailing list of customers to whom I will mail paper catalogs. I think the closest I will be able to come to Web publishing will be to maintain a catalog/newsletter file on my desktop and email it on request. Essentially how it was done in the old BBS days. Fortunately I am good at answering emails. And while I cannot make a .pdf file I can make a text file with photos added since my email program has an editor that allows that.
I have even tried .mac which is the Apple web hosting service, and it's as bad as the rest of them. The only thing they have going for them is they have a real live actual store with real live actual people who are indoctrinated with the unusual philosophy that if you help people instead of pissing them off, they might buy more of your company's computers. One of them actually convinced me recently that iCal is actually better than a paper calendar, something I thought I'd never believe.
I hate computers.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by WILLY on May 1, 2006
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Lots of interesting comments and views.
Maybe the summary would be that UseNet has run its course. It was good, now it is not, and thus we move on.
> by VE3LXL on April 26, 2006
- - -
"Unfortunately the Usenet model of unmoderated newsgroups does not work well in the modern Internet. It worked well when the Internet was primarily an academic network and when it actually required some degree of technological sophistication to use, but today, when any yahoo can get on there, the self-restraint that an unmoderated forum depends on is now missing. "
The part I quoted above really impressed me. There is a lot of truth in it, and also a dire simile.
Watch what happens with a few word substitutions:
Unfortunately the amateur radio model of self policing itself does not work well in the modern ham radio environment. It worked well when ham radio was primarily an academic network and when it actually required some degree of technological sophistication to use, but today, when any yahoo can get on there, the self-restraint that a self policing band depends on is now missing.
My, my - isn't that familiar looking?
I hope - I really do hope - that we learn from others' mistakes before we completely let something that was once so good slip through our fingers to be gone forever. Not to look back, say it had its time, and now it is time to move on.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K1OU on May 2, 2006
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Per W9WHE on eHam, 4/20/06
"KC8VWM tries to impress us, by telling us he has:
"regional disaster experience including direct involvement with the development for a municipal Nuclear response..."
A COLOSAL WASTE OF TIME.
FIRST: After a nuclear detonation, the front end of your radio toys will be FRIED from the MASSIVE Electro-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) that will be generated. Your radios will likely be totally useless. So much for emcomm.
SECOND: After a nuclear detonation, your ALS skills will be useless. Treating people with airway, cardiovascular, multi-system trauma and 3rd degree surface burns will be TOTALLY POINTLESS, because they WILL DIE of radiation poisioning (with over 1,000 rad exposure) NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.
THIRD: There will be no supplies remaining after the first few hours DUE TO OVERWHELMING DEMAND.
FOURTH: If YOU are close enough to help (or can get there quick enough) YOU will have likely absorbed enough Gamma radiation to be dead in the very near future anyway. And even if you were in a shelter (unlikely in event of a terrorist detonation) YOU will be breathing HIGHLY radioactive (cobalt siezium) dust, which will kill YOU in days.
I just love you people that think that they can plan their way out of a nuclear detonation. You live in a dream world. People like you give the uninformed a false sense of security."
W9WHE
Then, W9WHE on eHam, 4/27/06:
"We have a loss in civility and a rise in acceptance of personal attacks. For some reason, people that can't win an argument on the issues, feel that its ok to launch personal attacks.
But what to do?
Ban them. If an individual repeatedly launches personal attacks, just ban them from the BBS. if they do it on the air, shun them. its that simple. Treat outlaws as outcasts. its not a freedom of speech issue. Its a civillity issue.
Let's push a return to civility and stop tollerating personal attacks."
Apparently, Jonathan went a week without his meds.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K4JF on May 3, 2006
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I do believe the small version of Outlook (aka Express) does it, too. In any case, I don't want that junk on my computer. Never heard of any others that do it. Can't see that I have missed anything, from the above comments.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W9WHE-II on May 4, 2006
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"We have a loss in civility and a rise in acceptance of personal attacks"
K1OU is a perfect example. He posts a message about my deceased mother so filthy, so vile, that his post was promptly removed.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K1OU on May 4, 2006
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W9WHE,
I did say it. And I'm not sorry. Do something about this post.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K1OU on May 4, 2006
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And the post was there all last weekend. Prompt. It only got removed after you cried like a pussy to N2MG about it. Do something about this post while you are at it. It's only free speech if you agree with it, civility if you don't. If you are going to hang in the deep end of the pool with your antics, you better learn to swim. Otherwise, don't bother the lifeguard or call your mommy.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K1OU on May 4, 2006
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W9WHE on eHam, 1/24/05:
"KT0DD writes:
"Although seldom made public (unless 60 minutes, Dateline or someone else gets lucky with a leak) The corporate world makes more decisions (that we don't know about until it's too late) on the course of this country, than are ever made in the White House or Pentagon, (Those decisions are corporate influenced. Just look at all the clandestine corporate meetings that take place all over the world) Halliburtion, Raytheon & others are doing so well in Iraq".
Does somebody need another layer of tinfoil under his hat?"
W9WHE on Eham, 5/4/06:
"We have a loss in civility and a rise in acceptance of personal attacks. For some reason, people that can't win an argument on the issues, feel that its ok to launch personal attacks."
K1OU about W9WHE on eHam, 5/4/06:
Yes, I said something about your mother. Do something about it.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K4JF on May 4, 2006
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"A COLOSAL WASTE OF TIME.
FIRST: After a nuclear detonation, the front end of your radio toys will be FRIED from the MASSIVE Electro-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) that will be generated. Your radios will likely be totally useless. So much for emcomm.
SECOND: After a nuclear detonation, your ALS skills will be useless. Treating people with airway, cardiovascular, multi-system trauma and 3rd degree surface burns will be TOTALLY POINTLESS, because they WILL DIE of radiation poisioning (with over 1,000 rad exposure) NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.
THIRD: There will be no supplies remaining after the first few hours DUE TO OVERWHELMING DEMAND.
FOURTH: If YOU are close enough to help (or can get there quick enough) YOU will have likely absorbed enough Gamma radiation to be dead in the very near future anyway. And even if you were in a shelter (unlikely in event of a terrorist detonation) YOU will be breathing HIGHLY radioactive (cobalt siezium) dust, which will kill YOU in days.
I just love you people that think that they can plan their way out of a nuclear detonation. You live in a dream world. People like you give the uninformed a false sense of security."
Tha above post is complete bravo-sierra (even self-contradictory). All can safely ignore the above ficticious and hysterical comments.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KB9YGD on May 5, 2006
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Good article Paul.No the news groups usenet is still one of the best ways to research something there is.Many hams dont even know what news groups are but i will agree some of the NG forums including amateur radio has gotten way out of hand.73,Norm.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W8JAS on May 6, 2006
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The problem stems from a relatively small group of hicks, hillbillies, rednecks, and otherwise uneducated and unemployed people, who because they have no job and no education, can sit at a computer making vulgar statements and attacks all day. This just clutters up the newsgroups and has forced all the educated people to Yahoo and Google groups where you can moderate this type of behavior out of the group.
The people who destroyed the newsgroups are typical products of our public "education" system, or who have come from broken homes and divorced parents. The result has been low self esteem, no manners, little respect for others, and a general lack of ambition. They take out their lack of success in life on others via the newsgroups.
Really too bad and very sad.
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Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by N1GXC on May 10, 2006
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W8JAS was right on the money. I could not of said it better.
73. Dan
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W9WHE-II on May 10, 2006
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W8JAS hit the nail on the head.
Now, having spoken the truth, if any of the leftys actually read his post, he will be personally attacked and accused of being a racist, mean-spirited hate-monger. I guess K1OU has not yet read his post.
W9WHE
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W9WHE-II on May 10, 2006
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K1OU is the perfect example of W8JAS's posting. Jerry refuses to engage in the intellectual discussion, preferring to engage in gutter level personal attacks about people's mothers that is so vile, that it was immeadiately removed.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W9WHE-II on May 10, 2006
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K1OU is the perfect example of W8JAS's posting. Jerry refuses to engage in the intellectual discussion, preferring to engage in gutter level personal attacks about people's mothers that is so vile, that it was immeadiately removed.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K1OU on May 10, 2006
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W9WHE,
You are correct. Do something about it. Such as cry to N2MG about it. You know, an ARRL life member.
As for me, I'll share this with the gang, an e-mail that you personally sent to me.
"jerry:
Your need to wallow in the gutter of personal attacks is typical of liberalism. You can't win an intellectual argument, so the best you can do is launch personal attacks about people's deceased mothers. Tisk, tisk. People are sick of the filth you and your ilk propigate. That's why your vile post was removed. And I dare say all similar posts will also be removed. Decent people simply don't care to wallow in the gutter with trash.
Appearantly, to you, winning an argument does not involve an intellectual discourse. To the contrary, to you, it involves a contest of who can sink the lowest. Who can concoct the vileist of personal insult. Well, I leave you to your own self-entertainment, because I'm not going into the gutter with the likes of you. I'm not interested in your rage filled filth.
As for you calling off the dogs....:)
I welcome your vile postings. It shows the world what you and liberals like you are really all about, rage and Hate-filled intollerance. Instead of hiding behind a cloak of empathy, people see you for what you really are. You can't win an argument (or an election for that matter) on an intellectual level, so all you know is personal attacks. Whatever. My time is too valuable to waste on trash. So, you have been relagated to being filtered out by my "spam" filter. You're history!
The typos and contradictions are hilarious. Time for your Thorazine, little boy.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KC8TCQ on May 10, 2006
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Usenet isn't hard to deal with as long as you follow some basic guidelines.
#1 use a REAL usenet client, not outlook express, someting like X-news, Agent, etc.
#2, KillFile, use it to get rid of the annoying lusers who exist only to flood, spam, or otherwise harass the group
#3 Do NOT feed the trolls!!!!!!!!!! Once they realize they have an audiance they will keep up their performance. At the same time once they realize nobody cares they will either give up or go somewhere else.
On the whole annonymity thing, some people both hams and non hams, like to open multiple email addresses etc and use proxies to post on usenet to create problems, I tend to refer to them as keyboard cowboys.
Some have even made unfounded remarks about me in the past. But I ignore them, for myself I know the truth as do those who's opinions I care to listen to, so I ignore the lusers.
73 de Keith
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W8JAS on May 11, 2006
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Actually, to add to my previous post, those who are destroying the newsgroups are probably not ARRL members. The typical ARRL member has class and respect. Those polluting the amateur radio newsgroups have neither. And like most low-life amateurs, they are too cheap to join (probably don't have the money since they are unemployed).
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KB9YZL on May 11, 2006
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Whew! ………….And someone early in this thread wanted to know what was meant by “Total Meltdown”?????
All you have to do is read this whole thread to see that the usefulness of Newsgroups and on-line forums has been destroyed by bigots, and idiots on ego trips!
Another fine job on Eham! …….Show the whole world why they should avoid the world of Ham Radio!!!!
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by W9WHE-II on May 11, 2006
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Actually, I give credit to E ham. Every time I point out a vile, explicit or inappropriate posting by some filth monger, its gone in just a few shakes. My hat is off to them for acting quickly.
W9WHE
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K1OU on May 11, 2006
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W9WHE,
How does it feel to kowtow to somebody who is pro-league, meaning W8JAS?
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by K1OU on May 11, 2006
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W9WHE,
Want to talk about vile? How about this gem from you on 10/23/03..
" "Do you have something against Canadians?"
You mean other than:
1) they let practically ANYBODY into their country with NO identification being necessary?
2) they have a 3,000 mile essentially unguarded boarder with the US wherein ANY of their undocumented entrants could get into the US?
Other than that, I love Canadians! I think we need to protect ourselves from the Canadian "we let anybody in" immigration policy. So heck yes, let's put some old farts on the boarder with a 2 meter radio!"
Yet, you spew this on 5/4/06:
"We have a loss in civility and a rise in acceptance of personal attacks. For some reason, people that can't win an argument on the issues, feel that its ok to launch personal attacks."
You insult an entire nation of people. Brilliant. Oh, but George Bush is okay with letting illegals in to work dirt cheap, sending the message to immigrants who have gone through hte process legally that it was a waste of time. More brilliance. Counter me with some facts, not your typical "angry liberal" crap. Step up, big boy.
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KB9YZL on May 12, 2006
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One has to wonder……………
If there was an Internet Forum dedicated to political debate, would it be constantly polluted with arguments, flames, and vitriol concerning Ham Radio????
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RE: Amateur Radio Newsgroups: Total Meltdown
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by KI4NHB on May 12, 2006
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After reading the threads on this post, the discussion kind of degenerated down to the level of the newsgroups. I guess that sort of made my point. We are the Jerry Springer generation. Just listen to 14.275 some evening.
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