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If You Need Me...
Bob Burgermeister (W9EH)
on
April 16, 2006
View comments about this article!
If you need me, I'll be there. That's the way it was thirty years ago, and that's still the way I feel about it. However, now it's not good enough.
I got involved with Ham Radio in 1964 while I was in high school. It was a hobby that provided an opportunity to fool around with electronics and talk (via CW) to interesting people around the world. It did not occur to me that the hobby was also providing an education in many subjects, probably because I was still an adolescent and in the “anti school” phase of my life.
In 1964, I helped out with the Alaskan earthquake disaster by handling some health and welfare traffic destined for Milwaukee. We didn't think too much of our participation. It just seemed the natural thing to do.
Something has changed over the most recent ten years regarding Ham Radio's participation in emergency situations. Now, the fact that I am willing to help when needed is not good enough. Unless I can substantiate certain training, it is assumed that I am no longer capable of conducting myself in the proper fashion. If I am not able to provide digital text-based communications to requesting agencies, my services as a veteran communicator are not required.
How did we get to this point? About thirty years ago, I was part of an exercise designed to demonstrate good communications skills and protocol to municipal government agencies that were having trouble talking to each other when they needed to. The exercise was conducted by ARES at the request of the governmental agencies. The result of the day's activities was a laundry list of what they were doing wrong and what they needed to do if they were to be successful in communicating during a panic situation.
Obviously, local governments have spent a lot of time and money improving their communications systems over the past several decades. They are continuing to spend millions of tax dollars on state of the art equipment and training. Now, nearly every police car in this part of the country has a laptop computer which allows the patrol officer access to incredible information, all over the radio. It's secure by being encrypted, it's private and it's more accurate than spoken word dispatching.
Local governments and our national Department of Homeland Security have come to expect that the every day communication tools available to them should also be available in times of disaster. ARES has picked up this thread and passed it on to the Ham Radio population at large. No longer is it good enough to drop what you are doing, grab a radio and assist where needed. If you can't bring a portable Packet Radio station, or a mobile WinLink 2000 setup, you are not doing enough. We have been told that there is a “requirement” to establish networks of digital communications so that we are prepared to handle emergency traffic in case a tornado touches down nearby. We are made to feel guilty if we don't attend weather spotter classes and become part of Citizens' Corps and taken first aid classes. If we haven't completed certain courses, we will not be “allowed” to participate, should there be a real disaster.
Where has this “requirement” come from? As far as I am concerned, it's an irrational and unreasonable expectation coming from some academics who want to treat every panic situation according to a written plan in a textbook. Disasters just don't happen according to a plan. Recent history proves my point, and I won't bother to elaborate. Government agencies and the agencies that support them in times of trouble have come to expect that they can have secure, text-based communications available as a routine. There is paranoia about passing the name of some disaster victim on an “open” channel. There is the expectation of absolutely accurate transmission of traffic in the midst of chaos. And, there is the terrible fear the systems they have spent so much time and money putting together will fall apart when needed most.
Ham Radio has a mandate to assist the government when asked to do so. However, there's nothing in Part 97, or anywhere else, that prescribes what kind of communication is required, nor is there anything that requires a certain level of training to help out. Review 97.1 and 97.4 to verify this. The FCC rules are very vague concerning emergency communications.
When the chips are down, or as the ARRL likes to say, “When all else fails”, Ham Radio can help. We have always been there and probably always will be. However, our best showings in emergencies are by means of the simplest technology available. These days, it is probably a voice network of helpful operators using FM mobile radios or hand-held portable rigs. Ham Radio is only really useful on a very temporary basis in a real disaster. Local utilities and communications are not permanently out of commission in these situations, but will be recovered as one of the highest priorities. When the local infrastructure becomes operational again, all of the secure, private and accurate communications facilities will be back in business and Ham Radio should be able to pack up and go home.
How can I possibly come out and say that we should not be providing all of the “requirements” that have been put upon us? Very simply, governmental agencies have spent untold fortunes putting their communications systems together. Ham Radio Operators don't have fortunes to spend being a backup for government systems. The real value of Ham Radio is that it is widely dispersed and cheap. Each and every operator provides his or her own equipment. Clubs, or organized groups of Hams provide repeater facilities, and none of the money to make this wonderful system available has come from taxpayer pockets. No government agency is going to provide me the funds to put a portable digital station together, and I refuse to pay for it myself. Furthermore, I would trust in the reliability of my mobile transceiver or my trusty HT much more than the relatively more complex equipment needed to provide WinLink2000 or something like it. There are simply more component parts and interfaces that can fail. Digital networks supported by internet links are just silly when the infrastructure has failed.
Many Hams have become disenchanted with the recent evolution of ARES. Taken to its extreme, the ARES group that enforces all of the “requirements” becomes paramilitary. One group here in Wisconsin wanted their members to take training in traffic control so that they could help local police in managing automobile traffic at disaster scenes. The leadership of these groups does more to drive away willing volunteers by layering on more and more requirements for training and participation in drills and exercises than they do to attract new members. They want to increase their active members by making the rest of us feel guilty if we are not certified storm spotters or available to provide communications for profit-making commercial events.
While I have met a few newer Hams who got licensed so that they could be part of the Public Service activities, many more have simply gotten involved in a worthwhile hobby. It is still a hobby. It should still be fun. It should not consume my entire waking life, nor cause me to go into debt.
If you need me, I will be there. I may not be trained up to your standards, but I'm still able to pass message traffic and handle net control, if necessary. I have a lot of equipment and it's ready to roll should the call come. Don't forget about me. There are a lot more of us than there are of you.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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If You Need Me...
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by KC7FWB on April 16, 2006
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I absolutely agree. I think the problem is that organizations such as ARES are bing taken over by "professionals" who want to only work with the sorts of systems that they see in their professional lives.
What they don't seem to understand is that the expectations that they have about communications in an emergency are based upon the false premise that high-bandwidth, text/facimile/digital services are going to continue to be available.
All the training and high-cost equipment will not help one bit when the high-cost equipment fails (which it will) and the training they undergo is useless because all the training and operational procedures depend so heavily on high bandwidth systems.
Trying to force fit ham radio as an ad-hoc replacement for that is doomed to failure.
The only advice I can offer is to ignore the "official" emergency coordination groups and form your own. Along with this, make certain you have your own survival plans well sorted, because these peope will NOT be able to deliver when the real chips are down.
We saw it on 9/11 in a very small area. We saw it again in New Orleans. Each time the answer is more money, more training, more expensive equipment building yet more fragile systems depending upon high tech infrastructure which just won't survice, no mater how much they expect it to.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W6TH on April 16, 2006
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.
You gave the answer correctly Bob as you have mentioned:
Obviously, local governments have spent a lot of time and money improving their communications systems over the past several decades. They are continuing to spend millions of tax dollars on state of the art equipment and training. Now, nearly every police car in this part of the country has a laptop computer which allows the patrol officer access to incredible information, all over the radio. It's secure by being encrypted, it's private and it's more accurate than spoken word dispatching.
Reading this Bob, informs me; why do we need the use of ham radio?
.:
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by NN8Y on April 16, 2006
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I agree with Bob that any ham can help out in a crisis, all that is needed is a radio and the know-how to operate it. But, sometimes, training will teach you how to be more helpful.
Listen to a weather net sometime (you probably have, or have even participated) and you'll see what I mean.
The NWS liason is very busy at times, and when the weather is getting heavy in places, that would be one of those times.
What the NWS wants is specific data that tells them if they should sound warnings that may save lives, and, more importantly, where. Hail above a certain size, rain falling in excess of a particular rate, tornadic activity, etc., all are valuable indicators as to the severity of a storm. Radar can't tell them what's happening on the ground, and that's why they love hams as spotters.
Flooding reports are vital; floods are the biggest killer when it comes to weather.
Now, all around that critical location, there will be any number of things going on that do not need to be reported, but people always do anyway. Lighting, wind, rain, thunder, yup, yup, all of those happen in every thunderstorm, by definition.
Those reports just tie up the channel, and often when something important needs to be reported.
That's the main gist of the training, what to report, what not to. We're an eager bunch, but sometimes we need to know when to stay out of the way.
I also disagree with the logic that 'all that training will be useless when the fancy radio breaks'. More training is generally good, I can't think of a case where I didn't get something useful out of training.
73
Rob
NN8Y
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by WIRELESS on April 16, 2006
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I have been trying to figure out for decades why hams think they get emergency action skills because they passed some part 97 electronics test and they know how to turn a vfo knob?
IF I thought I had to depend on hams for my life instead of trained police, fire, medical personnel, I would bend over and kiss my own ass good bye right now.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by N6AJR on April 16, 2006
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ok so here is the other side. how much traffic have yiou passed. lets say you are working an emergency communications shift in a hospital. and you are reporting that one person has died of Pnumosilerosiscal thorocossissei, I spell papa nancy uniform etc.
if you don't know how to pass messages, then you aren't helping much.
point #2 is insurance.
if you are a "trained member" of races, ares, cars, skywarn etc, then you have a card stating you are a member and the insurance from the agency you are working for is in force for you, no card , no insurance.. no insurance , no work. it covers their butts.
#3 is you will need to do more than be the "radio guy". you may need to help carry litters, or throw sandbags or other stuff in addition to being on the radio, and do you have battery power for 12 hours, and a personal back up generator and am source of fuel for it, and or solar panels to provide power in a disaster?? there is lots more these days than getting on 2 m or hf and saying hi mom, over,
perhaps this is where the problem from non trained folks comer from. NIMS ( nation incident managemant system) is a requirement for all "official " hams these days. do you have a certificate saying you passed??
that is why you need to be trained, so you can help.
I you decided to jump in your car and run down to help with Katrina last fall, did you bting along enough food to eat for a week or two,( reasturants all gone) and some extra fule for your car and generators ( gas tations all flooded) and a weapon to defenfd your self ( If you have a car and my family is in danger, I am going to take your car to get out of here..) and a place to sleep. etc.
folks want to run in and help, but if you are not trained, prepared and ready, you become a liability, not an asset..
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If You Need Me...
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by N0AH on April 16, 2006
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Traffic control is redtape in communication during health and welfare checks on local communities within a disaster area controlled by hams.
You pick out a central point, like a high school gym. You find local hams to help man this post and they suggest where to go in the field to help. Be it with a team or solo, this is the only method I know that has ever worked. One ham with a group versus 15 hams with 2 locals is a lot better method in the field.
People need to be able to monitor all traffic on the two meter frequency being used. That is the beautiful thing about hamming. If you need something, call into the command center. If they need you, listen up for your call. If you hear a ham or group calling in for help, use common sense and call them back.
ARES I can't comment on. Never heard them in any disaster I was involved with. Just worked with the Red Cross locals.
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Another view
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by K0BG on April 16, 2006
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You are quite correct about the increased use of telemetrics in all manner of public support vehicles. Police, fire, city (water, sewer, code, street, etc.), and many more. Each and every one of these telemetric devices requires an underlaying infrastructure to support it.
Enter amateur radio. The latest craze seems to be the addition of VoIP and similar Internet protocols. Just like the aforementioned, there has to be an underlaying infrastructure to support it.
We've been very lucky in this country, in that we haven't really had a major disaster. Yes, the hurricanes came close, but most of the requisite infrastructure remained particularly outside of the affected area. On the other hand, if a terrorist group managed to set off a megaton atomic bomb, there would be no infrastructure of any kind. And everything relying on it would be useless.
While I'll agree to some extent to the nay-sayers among us, especially about the ability of some amateurs to handle even basic messages, there is nonetheless an underlaying camaraderie. An infrastructure if you will.
Perhaps there would be a little chaos at first (we saw plenty of this within FEMA, the folks who are supposed to know how), but amateurs seem to be more resilient than the rest. Since amateurs are not supposed to be first responders, a small amount of chaos is tolerable.
What isn't tolerable is the attitude FEMA and other governmental organizations voiced toward amateurs. It seemed as if the amateur radio community were being blamed for FEMA's own shortcomings.
Chaos or not, amateurs operators were there, and they were there in force. Over all, the job they did (and still do) is exemplary. Perhaps the hurricane disaster will motivate even the hardened soles (pun intended) to get some training of their own.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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If You Need Me...
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by W6VPS on April 16, 2006
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AMEN!
Training has always been important and will remain so. BUT government at nearly all levels moves into the overkill mode more often than not causing more chaos.
It is exactly this reason that has caused so many amateurs to 'stand down' from their readiness to provide backup emergency communications.
Despsite the marvelous communications advances available today when the backbone infrastructure is intact, when it fails the best method remains K.I.S.S.
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RE: Another view
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by AE6IP on April 16, 2006
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1964 was forty-two years ago.
Almost everything is different today than it was then; especially communications. What was once an esoteric skill possessed by only a few is now routine.
In 1964, during the Alaska earthquake, hams provided a significant service. They were the only ones who could perform it.
In 2005, during Katrina, the first reliable communications restored in New Orleans was a wi-fi repeater. The New Orleans free wi-fi net became the replacement communications backbone for large chunks of a city. It dwarfs every ham communications project ever undertaken.
That's the reality of telecommunications in the 21st century. It's digital. It uses the internet. It uses unlicensed spectrum. A lot of people know how to do it.
The kind of help you are willing to provide just isn't that necessary any more, and it becomes less so every day.
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If You Need Me...
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by NA4IT on April 16, 2006
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I agree with this poster that but with this viewpoint...
I have no problem with an agency or group asking for volunteers to have training that is provided FREE OF CHARGE for them. Our local group serves with a government agency and all the training we need for that service is provided yearly for free, with the exception of our time.
Many agencys and groups are having volunteers take some of the FEMA courses online, which here again, and FREE OF CHARGE. I myself have IS-100, IS-195, IS-700, and will soon have IS-800 under my belt.
I used to be a member of TN ARMY MARS, all their training is FREE OF CHARGE.
Recently, the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency signed an MOU with Tennessee ARES, which I think is great.
After this happened, I resigned my post as county emergency coordinator for ARES, and from ARES, mainly because of the fact that my disability has gotten worse, and someone able bodied needs to take over. BUT...
Someone, and I still don't have for sure exactly who decided this, has said that TN ARES EC's and up will have to have IS-100, IS-700, IS-800 AND ARRL ARES EMCOMM I, II, & III. For those not familiar with the later, those are the courses that ARRL charges $45 a piece for the materials and to take it.
What is this going to do? I don't believe it will train good communicators to be better, I believe it will exclude good communicators from serving.
Folks, if you want someone trained who volunteers his time, uses his own equipment, and pretty much bears all costs, then DON'T ASK HIM OR HER TO PAY FOR TRAINING!
Now, have I quit serving the public through amateur radio? NO! If there is something I can do, and I am allowed, I will serve. I got back into amateur radio to serve my fellow man, not ARES, RACES, or an agency, but the citizens around me. I handled several hours worth of traffic during Katrina from my base station in E TN. And I was glad and proud to do it, and would GLADLY do it again.
Until folks in charge realize this is not about a group or agency, but about HUMANS, it is going on a snowball ride down hill and melting while traveling.
ARRL, ARES, whoever, it is NOT about "my 4 and no more", it is about service to your fellow man! PERIOD! You need to use those who are willing and experienced.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by AD5TD on April 16, 2006
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[by N6AJR on April 16, 2006
lets say you are working an emergency communications shift in a hospital. and you are reporting that one person has died of Pnumosilerosiscal thorocossissei, I spell papa nancy uniform etc.]
One of the things you learn in EMCOMM 1 from the ARRL is that you DON'T broadcast DEATHS over PUBLIC AIRWAVES! ARS frequencies or not.
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RE: Another view
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by KB5DPE on April 16, 2006
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AE6IP said:
"In 2005, during Katrina, the first reliable communications restored in New Orleans was a wi-fi repeater. The New Orleans free wi-fi net became the replacement communications backbone for large chunks of a city. It dwarfs every ham communications project ever undertaken."
I don't know. I wasn't there; but your statements above contradict everything that I've heard and read about ham radio's role in the disaster. Furthermore, if the infrastructure was down, with whom did this wi-fi network communicate outside of the disaster area?
My opinion: Some training and "continuing education" is necessary and justified; large expenditures in equipment that the individual ham would not ordinarily buy is asking too much. For me personally, I have no interest in the digital modes, I don't particularly like computers and avoid them as much as I can. I want to enjoy my hobby; introduce a computer and the enjoyment goes out the window.
73 Tom KB5DPE
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RE: Another view
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by K8MHZ on April 16, 2006
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If things get bad, the only systems that will work are those that can operate NUP (No Utility Provided)
Utilities consist of not only electric power, but cell towers, the Internet, etc.
The folks that master working with NUP systems will be needed anytime that UP systems either fail or become overloaded.
The type of NUP system matters less than the fact that utility provision is not needed. WLANs are easy to set up NUP and can utilize methods of communications people are used to using. Integration of WLANs in a whole effort system with HF is now being developed.
Amateurs have access to more than voice or CW communication systems.
An NUP system that is *reliably* field deployable is an asset to any emergency communcations effort. Portable repeaters fall into this category. My experience with packet as a field deployable system has been somewhat less than reliable, but others have had better luck.
There are ways to contribute, but they may indeed be different than the ways of nearly half a century ago.
Thanks for 'being there'.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: Another view
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by N5PVL on April 16, 2006
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All of this "being over-official" nonsense was formerly the province of RACES, but now that the DHS is passing out grant money corruption is widespread, including "elitist" schemes intended to keep most hams out of the loop and concentrate that grany money into just a few hands.
Perrsonally, I'd just as soon see the DHS stick that grant money where the sun don't shine, if you get my drift.
If you "follow the money", you will discover that an amazing amount of foolishness and corruption immediately followed the appearence of the DHS grant money.
It's just about destroyed the ARRL and ARES - already.
Charles Brabham, N5PVL
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RE: Another view
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by WV2B on April 16, 2006
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Hey, why don't we create a new non-profit ham organization to help in emergencies. No requirements or training of any kind needed. No requirement to have any particular kind of equipment. No first aid, not even a word needing to be mentioned about directing traffic, or any service from volunteers other than the ability to talk into a microphone. We'll get everybody signed up, and then you can head down to whatever emergency response organization you think we should assist and convince them to work with us, just a bunch of guys ready to be there. Let us know how it works out.
73,
Duane
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RE: Another view
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by K8MHZ on April 16, 2006
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Duane,
The only requirement that ARES has is 1) a ham license and 2) a willingness to serve.
I'm not saying I agree with it, I don't. But that is the way it is.
Just think how much fun it is trying to maintain a group that paid emergency services trust when the most recalcitrant members of the team recites the 'requirements'.
Anyone that requires training is operating outside of ARES 'requirements'. To that effect, can a group that has minimal requirements for training call themselves an ARES group?
Remember, the ARRL 'owns' the acronym ARES (trademark) and one would think if a group calls themselves ARES (trademark) they would also have to use their 'requirements' for membership.
Hats off the the ARES groups that have decided that the lack of membership requirements, especially those of minimal training and equipment, are not conducive to an effective emergency communications group and have gone against the grain of 'anyone and everyone welcome' spewed by the national ARES (trademark) organization.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: Another view
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by K8MHZ on April 16, 2006
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Bob,
When handling traffic that concerns patients in a hospital, are you familiar enough with the HIPAA requirements to know what traffic you can pass on what types of communications for what types of agencies?
If you pass the certain traffic on the wrong radio you may find yourself, and your organization, in a real legal jam?
This is just ONE reason, and there are many, why ONLY trained operators should be allowed on the air during emergencies.
There is more to helping than just sitting around waiting for something to happen and have your name called to spend a few minutes to save the day. Most people with no training and merely a 'willingness to serve' will probably be getting in the way and wasting the resources of trained persons trying to correct matters (and perhaps treat casualties) caused by the intrusion on the untrained.
If you really want to help, take the time to get some training. All of it around here is free, and there is usually something to eat there as well.
You may just enjoy it.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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If You Need Me...
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by KR4WM on April 16, 2006
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As a recently retired 25+ year veteran firefighter, I can say that I see both sides of the fence. We were not allowed to give out certain information on the air lest we get sued because of the HIPPA act. The Ryan White act is another can of worms for emergency responders in some cases. There should be some changes made to recently-enacted laws that provide exceptions in the event of a disaster. Some of the new laws unintentionally put emergency responders in harms way, although the laws were not intended to do this. It is ILLEGAL, for instance, for an EMT on-scene to warn other responding units on the radio that someone on the scene has a communicable disease! Management expected us to prepare for EVERY call like EVERY patient had the Ebola virus! I always felt that was stupid, but I complied to keep my job.
I was recently told that I would have to complete certain classes before I would be allowed to work in the EOC in the capacity of an amateur radio operator. I have not, nor do I plan to, take ANY more emergency services classes. I don't feel like I'm better than anyone else and, therefore should not have to take them, but I have been taking emergency services classes for 25+ years, and now that I'm retired, don't plan on taking any more. After a point, they're just boring, repetitive acronym-based time-wasters. I've had enough! And I can't see making amateur radio operators who only want to help in the position of a trained communicator sit through a class that is 90% fluff where they're concerned.
I can see that amateur radio operators who are responding to assist local government should be required to attend a short one-hour class which should ideally explain to them exactly what they will be doing. Just an introduction to the people they'll be working with, and to show us where we'll be; basic orientation if you will. But ham ops don't need to know the job description of an incident commander, what a supply sector is, what a strike team consists of, or who is in charge of the operations sector. After all, they're only going to be relaying third-party traffic. As long as they apply their knowledge of part 97 (is this message legal?) then they've met their objective.
Give us (as amateur radio operators who merely want to help) the very basics, give us an assigned location, then leave us the heck alone!
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If You Need Me...
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by K1CJS on April 16, 2006
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After 9-11, the feds stepped in and 'overhauled' the system in place. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) was instituted and several government agencies were transferred to that new department. From then on, everything had to be 'official' and done by the book--the NEW book which the DHS was putting together.
All of a sudden, the magic word 'interoperability' came into being, frequencies that the police and fire departments, state police, medical services (ambulances and paramedics) and the governmental radio systems that had functioned well for years had to be changed around so every city and town could communicate with their neighbors and the county and state agencies in their areas.
The ham operators who were serving their communities for years were told they had to--all of a sudden--have training in communications and emergency services. They had to have 'credentials' which needed a police and or a federal records check to get (after all, a terrorist could have snuck in somehow). They had to have these things to be sure the city/town insurance would cover them (can you say 'liability'?)
Face it, todays world is a whole lot different than just ten years ago. With the possibilities of people who don't have the training or who just plain don't belong in a emergency command center or any emergency service area, these limitations had to be instituted.
I was (yes, WAS) the ARES and city appointed EC of the city EMA until the EMA director retired last year. When I was asked if I wanted to continue, at the advice of the outgoing director, I declined. The circumstances and requirements of such a position nowadays is nothing like it used to be because of the training needed--training that I would have to pay for out of my pocket even though the paid city employees received that training for nothing.
I agree with the writer of this article--if I'm needed and asked, I am available to help--BUT--I'm not going to pay for the training and the equipment just to be called 'official'.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by VE0FK on April 16, 2006
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In some disaster scenarios and for some served agencies, it is easy to understand why training prerequisites are necessary. In other scenarios, only a basic competence with communications is required. It really comes down to the individual ARES group and emergency coordinator to decide what is appropriate, based on the agencies served and the scenarios accommodated by the emergency communications plan.
One approach for the EC is to track the skills and training of individual operators and assign them accordingly. In situations where digital communications is required, the EC activates only those operators who are appropriately equipped or trained. When a served agency demands specific training (as the Red Cross does for all volunteers attached to RC operations), the EC assigns only those operators who have the needed training. An advantage of this flexible approach is greater participation by amateurs who may be unable or unwilling to meet all the requirements of all served agencies (making the most of whatever amateur resources are available). Disadvantages include the effort required to track operator training status, the extra effort during emergencies to assign operators appropriately, and the need to deal with failures that occur when operators with different levels of training interact. (We manage this in New Brunswick using a large database that tracks licensing, equipment, and training participation.)
Another approach for the EC is to set a minimum prerequisite for participation (which is what Bob W9EH is complaining about). This makes it much simpler for the EC, so long as there are enough amateurs willing to meet those prerequisites. However, the EC needs to realistically look at the level of amateur participation and the number of amateurs who are willing to acquire the requested skills or training. There's no point trying to enforce training on your ARES group if you'll be left with only a small handful of qualified operators.
For the EC, the best approach might be to blend these strategies. Allow participation by a wide range of amateurs, but within the ARES group create tiers or teams that have specific skills or training. This makes it easier to manage prerequisites before and during emergencies, but doesn't lock out operators that the EC might really need under some scenarios.
For the individual operator, it's important to remember that ARES isn't a social group like an amateur radio club. ARES doesn't exist to serve the operators, and it isn't the EC's job to facilitate your participation if you aren't able to meet the group's basic requirements. If the EC has access to a number of operators who are willing and able to take the training, get certifications, and learn the required skills, and those operators are able to meet the requirements identified in the emergency communications plan, there's no justification for reducing the overall effectiveness of the group by bringing in operators who aren't fully qualified and therefore need to be managed and given special treatment. ARES doesn't exist to make you feel useful.
And for ARES as a whole and its served agencies, it's important to remove the barriers that make it difficult for ARES participants to get the required training. As pointed out by an earlier poster, training should be free. No fees, no costs. If ARES is going to impose training requirements, the associated body (ARRL, RAC, etc.) should cover any development and delivery costs. If a served agency (like Red Cross) is going to demand certification, it should fully cover the costs. Unnecessary bureaucracy must be avoided. And ARES should take steps to ensure that the required training/certification is relevant and appropriate. Operators donate their time to participate in training, and steps must be taken to ensure that their time is not squandered.
Qualification has become a greater issue in recent years because technological change has greatly increased the expectations of served agencies, and a growing focus on 'process' has resulted in the imposition of 'professional' certification requirements on volunteers in a wide range of roles, including those involved in communications. At the same time, amateur radio has become stagnant, technologically, and ARES groups are facing an almost universal struggle to maintain relevance and be useful in most emergency scenarios. Vertical training (specialized training) and cross-training is one way of fighting to keep ARES at the table with the other organizations involved in disaster response.
It's going to get worse for amateurs who want to serve as communicators. Mainstream communications technologies are becoming more redundant and less likely to fail during emergencies, and the next 10-15 years could see a real end to amateurs' traditional participation in emergency communications. Amateurs can no longer expect to serve as primary communicators, and the simple ability to light up a voice traffic net on HF or 2m isn't enough in emergency environments that often demand large-scale, integrated command and communications. MANETs and other redundant, non-infrastructure based communications technologies may mean that amateur radio simply won't be needed in most scenarios.
We amateurs need to understand our diminishing role and adapt. If we wish to continue serving our communities during times of emergency, we must prepare ourselves to serve in a range of roles and train ourselves appropriately. This may mean upgrading communications skills to include digital communications. It may mean knowing how to use non-amateur communications systems or becoming familiar with the set-up of ad hoc Wifi networks. It may mean taking Red Cross Volunteer certification, getting CPIC clearance, participating in SAR training, or even being willing to serve in a shelter kitchen -- things that have nothing to do with amateur radio. No one can demand this of us, but if all we're prepared to do is sit in the corner of an EOC with a microphone in our hand, we shouldn't be surprised when there's less and less opportunity for us to assist when emergencies arise. If we decide not to pursue that participation, we shouldn't be surprised if we don't get called to assist during disasters.
Dave VE0FK/VE9FK
www.emergencyplanning.ca/ares-stj
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If You Need Me...
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by K3TJ on April 16, 2006
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W9EH has a valid point. If they don't want you, forget it. The FEMA training is available on line for free. The locals, on the other hand, well you never know.
I have worked closely with law enforcement for twenty years and been a ham for over thirty-five, I have yet to see an officer refuse help in communications. The administration however...
When Flight 93 slammed into "my backyard" (just west of me), the cops were in RF hell. No getting in, no getting out. PA has lots of mountains and they can bock VHF pretty good. Amateurs had a repeater on the nearest mountain and could talk to anyone.
PA's solution was to go to 800 megs. Oh, don't get me wrong, they still have the VHF voice freqs. but all you hear on those anymore is:
"Holldiaysburg 9 did you get that message?
9 negative
OK we have a such and such for you to go to."
So much for encrypted data.
Homeland security may have tossed billions at it, but like a poor marksman they missed the target.
In Somerset County PA if the response falls into a shadow of their 800 meg system, they can't even go car to car unless they scream out the window (yes, they can be that close).
Hey, my opinion of all the money spent and what we got for our bucks
Respectfully, ed k3tj
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC5TTL on April 16, 2006
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There was a very article written by N7WR that everyone should read --
Katrina's Lessons
Jerry Boyd, N7WR
Hurricane Katrina brought unprecedented havoc to many states. It challenged responders at all levels of government as well as non-government responder organizations. Much criticism has been directed at the response, particularly by those who suffered the most. While little, if any, criticism has been directed at the Amateur Radio community it is my belief that we need to be our own worst critics. Could our response have been better? Many believe the only correct answer to that query is a resounding "yes." I want to make it clear that there was good work done by the Amateur Radio community during and following Katrina. Certainly many amateurs deserve kudos for their efforts. Having said that, however, I have had more than one reader ask if I thought it odd that Amateur Radio's role seemed less than what one would expect given that Katrina was by far the most damaging natural disaster in our nation's history. Quite frankly I was not surprised that the level of use of Amateur Radio was not what many would have anticipated. That is what results from a non-systematic, construct-it-on-the-fly response which is exactly what occurred in a lot (but not all) of cases. Fortunately, many excellent Emcomm leaders stepped up to cause the response which did occur. But the effort was not coordinated as well as it should have been. There are a number of reasons for that.
Let's get the easiest to address issues out of the way first and then move to the more complex. The "exotic modes" I addressed in my last column had, from all reports, comparatively minimal use. I'm sure if that had not been the case, the proponents of modes like Winlink 2000(tm) would have saturated us with story after story of that mode's successful use following Katrina. Those reports are lacking. Why? Because those modes are dependant upon backbone systems that either do not exist to the degree needed, or they are based on systems which collapse when a category IV hurricane pays a visit. Certainly many systems collapsed when Katrina made landfall.
The next easiest issue to address is the matter of local amateurs not entering the fray at the very outset providing communications from places like the Superdome and Convention Center or substituting Amateur Radio for the failed law, fire and EMS radio systems. The most elementary explanation is that it was the rare amateur in the region who was not also a victim.
There was no (or very little) commercial power throughout the region. Amateur repeaters, with some exceptions, were knocked off the air just like their police/fire/EMS radio system counterparts. This was not the type of disaster that local resources, be they amateur, police, fire or EMS were able to do much about. That is not to say that there were no heroic efforts by local personnel - there were. But the fact is, this incident was so catastrophic that it took literally tens of thousands of outside resources coming in before much of an impact was felt in terms of search and rescue, re-supply of food and water, provision of needed medical assistance, and restoration of communications services.
What are germane questions regarding the Amateur Radio response to Katrina? Some that ought to be asked are: Why were Amateur Radio mutual assistance/mutual aid teams not used to a greater degree? What about our
"agreements" with FEMA and others? Was the problem that government and non-government organizations (NGO's) did not request us? Good questions
all. The answers should help identify the reasons why, in a future incident similar to Katrina, the use of Amateur Radio will be minimal....unless and until the Amateur Radio community and the national organization which represents us comes to understand that a 1970s (and I'm being generous) approach to Emcomm just doesn't cut it in the post 2001 environment.
Here's the issue, pure and simple. Amateur Radio Emcomm is provided by volunteers. If we wish to be used in future Katrinas, however, we must be organized like professionals. What do I mean by that? I mean the same thing I, and others, have meant for the many years we have been urging that we as amateurs need to create an organized mutual aid system. We predicted, and correctly so, that at some point our lack of a formalized mutual aid system would catch up with us....it did. I'm no prophet, and I'm certainly no smarter than the next guy or gal. But in addition to Amateur Radio I'm a public safety professional and have been since 1967. Seeing handwriting on the wall is not rocket science for an old cop like me. Since 9-11 it has become obvious that ad hoc, individual, or comparatively small group localized volunteer responses to emergencies would no longer be acceptable or effective "when the big one hits." They aren't. Government agencies, like the Department of Homeland Security/FEMA, call the shots in major disasters.
One of the shots they call is this. If they want a resource (be it fire fighting, riot suppression, or communications) they go to the NIMS (National Incident Command System) Resource Typing System and they ask for resources by type. They request what they need knowing in advance what they will get. They do not say "I want some communications personnel." Second, when requesting those resource types they go to the sources that they know can provide exactly what is needed. Those sources will likely not be local representatives whom they do not know but, rather, a national organization (like the American Red Cross) with name recognition and a track record. And, no matter where the incident occurs the point of contact will always be the same. That is how the system, like it or not, operates. The day of the ARRL, its field organization, and representatives of its ARES(r) program (be those representatives SECs, DECs or ECs) being able to put together response teams on the run and send them is past. To think otherwise is foolish.
As has been frequently mentioned in this column and elsewhere there is an Amateur Radio Emcomm resource typing system that has been developed. And it meets the DHS/NIMS resource typing criteria. That Amateur Radio resource typing system is called ARCT (Amateur Radio Communications Teams). There are four levels (or to use NIMS terminology) types...ARCT Type I, II, III and IV. In fact, just one week prior to Katrina, NIMS put the finishing touches on integrating ARCT into its NIMS Resource typing documents. So like it or not, the ARCT system developed by D. W. Thorne, K6SOJ, is the only Amateur Radio resource likely to be requested by DHS and others in future incidents.
The problem is that the Amateur Radio Emcomm community has not agreed on the very resource typing system for Amateur Radio Emcomm that the federal government, through NIMS, believes best suits its needs. We still talk about "jump teams," ready response teams, rapid response teams etc. If we want to be used, we'd better rally round the flag and all agree that the only term we'd better use in reference to our emergency field response capability is ARCT. If we fail to agree on that and fail to quickly adopt not only the terminology but the content of what ARCT I, II, III and IV means to those who will use our services we have collectively cut our own throats. The bleeding started with Katrina. It will be fatal next time unless the Amateur Radio Emcomm community gets on board the right train.
A second major point has to do with how ARCT can be requested in future "Katrinas." Consider this. Katrina did result in the response of many volunteer organizations. The American Red Cross, Salvation Army, USAR (Urban Search And Rescue) and VFD Teams (Volunteer Fire Department) to name but a few. Most of these are organizations very much like our own ARRL - A paid headquarters staff, but responders made up primarily of volunteers. The key difference, and maybe the reason why they were used to the fullest and Amateur Radio was under-utilized, has to do with the request and notification system. One phone call got the Red Cross rolling from wherever needed....same with the Salvation Army and others. We need that exact same system for Amateur Radio Emcomm. Some centralized organization (perhaps ARRL or if that is impractical, some other) needs to be the single point of contact with an on call "duty
officer" available 24/7. Again, please understand that I am talking about notification and response coordination for major events, not localized emergencies or special events.
Here's how Amateur Radio Emcomm should play out in the Katrina that will occur somewhere down the road.
* DHS or other Incident Command structure assesses communications needs and determines Amateur Radio can meet some of those needs. IC makes a specific ARCT request of the ARCT Program Coordinator.
* The ARCT Coordinator has an up-to-date directory of ARCT Type I Team
leaders which have been established in each FEMA region. The ARCT Coordinator notifies the leaders of the appropriate teams and initiates the response requested. The regional ARCT Type I leaders have access to listings of ARCT Type II, III and IV resources and can activate them as needed. This leads to the most critical need...that of establishing regional Type I, II, III & IV ARCT. Is this a departure from the past? Sure it is. The landscape has changed significantly and we need to change with it if we are to remain a player. It will no longer suffice, in major regional incidents for the shots to be called by the local EC, DEC or SEC. It will no longer suffice for that local leader to use informal networks to summon outside help from neighboring areas. In a disaster like Katrina no one has time to "go shopping" for resources. No one has time to explain what is needed (that is why the self-explanatory, defined ARCT is so critical). No one has time (or maybe even the means) to insure that s/he is getting exactly what is needed not, just "a bunch of hams with radios that will be there tomorrow."
I'm sure some will argue that it is impractical to expect that amateurs will commit to regional teams, maintain their training, have ready-to-go equipment caches, and be willing to drop everything at a moment's notice to travel hundreds of miles to assist in a major disaster. Is it? Red Cross volunteers, Salvation Army Volunteers, USAR volunteers (and I could go on and on) do it all the time. And that is why they are used.
And that is why if we do not adopt this approach we will not be used.
For the first time in this writer's memory the League, during the Katrina response, received a grant specifically to reimburse Amateur Radio Emcomm responders for their actual expenses during the incident.This raises an important point. If establishing regional ARCTs and having an on-call system to get them rolling does result from the Katrina experience, as they should, there does need to be a way to reimburse responders for actual expenses. It would be ideal if the ARRL could count on grants such as the one mentioned...but that is likely wishful thinking. So I further suggest that the ARRL immediately take two additional steps. One is to meet with DHS/FEMA (as have other volunteer responder organizations) and formalize a reimbursement system. Money is generally made available for such purposes as part of the federal response to regional disasters. This happens when there is a federal declaration of disaster and when Congress authorizes a special appropriation as it did with Katrina. Two, that the ARRL develop a special fund (as it has for so many other purposes) to create a pool of money specifically for the purpose mentioned. I may or may not be inclined to contribute to a W1AW refurbishment fund, but like many, many others who believe that being a viable player in the Emcomm arena is the key to our radio service's survival, I certainly would contribute,
annually, to an Emcomm response fund. The fund would be used to reimburse only those whose response resulted from the formalized mutual aid system.
There are undoubtedly many lessons every American should learn from Katrina. In terms of our radio service few are more important than knowing that time is growing short in terms of our Emcomm future. ARCT needs to be officially adopted by the Amateur Radio Emcomm community (long overdue in my opinion); overall coordination of major disaster Amateur Radio Emcomm responses needs to be centralized; and the establishment of real, not just in name only, ARCTs at all levels on a regional basis needs to become our highest priority.
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We the people.
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by AI2IA on April 16, 2006
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What does it take to get people to understand that "government" is not the solution. It is the problem. Do you want to make something worse? Throw "government" money at it. With "government" comes rules and regulations. You cannot manage an emergency by rules and regulations. Rules and regulations in emergency conditions are reduced to "guides" by the facts of life. Look at FEMA. Do you really want FEMA to manage an emergency in your town? Would it not be better if your own neighbors, and local emergency trained people used their own common sense to handle an emergency?
What are our real tools? Ingenuity, experience, leadership, character, loyalty, principles - can you reduce these to rules and regulations? The bureaucrats thinks so. Do you?
It is time to tell big "government" where to go. This has nothing to do with training, or with unwillingness to learn digital techniques. It has to do with common sense and survival. It is time to drop the fuzzy textbook mentality and get back to the wisdom of our forefathers. If your ARES stinks, form your own group and protect youselves when the time comes. They laughed at Noah, and then the rains came, and they laughed and laughed, and then they laughed no more.
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If You Need Me...
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by KA4HWX on April 16, 2006
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"When all else Fails..."
That is what I am waiting for here in our county. The EMA director stated that he had no need for Amateur Radio. That his system will never fail.
Then when ask if the hams needed all those certificates he said yes, but we won't need them.
So I am sitting back waiting to see what will happen "when all else fails".
He and I sit on the Emergency Planning Commission Board. I'm on there because of the ones involved in local politics. They wanted me on there since I am the RACES Director and know that maybe hams will be needed.
But, of course that means nothing as the EMA Director runs the show, not the ones that think politics does.
So, I agree with you. Hail failing, wind blowing down trees, etc. doesn't take a certificate to report into the weather bureau.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 16, 2006
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"So, I agree with you. Hail failing, wind blowing down trees, etc. doesn't take a certificate to report into the weather bureau."
You have obviously never heard some of the reports people give, especially the creative ways people describe the size of hail.
All it takes is about 2 hours a YEAR to get the minimal training required for the NWS Skywarn program. And you get FOOD! And some great material on weather, the correct numbers to call, a cool badge with your call sign on it and cookies or doughnuts. You may even be able to meet your TV weather guy in person (I have met them all) but most importantly, you will know WHAT to call in about and HOW to describe it accurately. I can see where anyone invited to attend a FREE NWS training service without cookies or doughnuts (2 hours is a LONG time to go without eating) may balk, but I have never seen a ham walk away from a Skywarn training session hungry.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KA2JIZ on April 16, 2006
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When I was a new ham back in the early 1980's, I volunteered as a river-watcher during several spring flooding seasons. Stationed myself at a nearby lock and watched the river level as indicated on the measuring "stick" on the side of the concrete lock wall. Using an HT, I called into the repeater controller with new readings. I wasn't the only volunteer as several other guys were stationed at locks further up and down the line. I wasn't a member of any public service organization, not even the ham club, but my participation was appreciated.
Rather low-tech back then. Hardly appropriate today, I suppose.
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If You Need Me...
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by KI4ADK on April 16, 2006
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They STILL need us…….they just can’t admit it out loud………
Hello fellow hams! There is a fair amount of truth in many of the previous posts on this subject. I politely and humbly submit a few of my own thoughts……
1.) Wi-Fi may have been the first “organized” communication link re-established in New Orleans after Katrina, but ham radio was on the ground (actually…on-the-roof-tops is more accurate…) immediately after the storm to notify authorities of many life-and-death issues. I personally assisted with a comm session that spanned four ham operators in as many states which resulted in getting the Coast Guard directed in for a New Orleans multi-person rescue at a medical clinic. Ham radio may be touch-and-go right after the storm, but it got the job done in many cases. It was far better than the other option - no communications at all. They still need us…they just won’t admit it.
2.) The new digital, trunked, interoperable radio systems (pick your brand name) are great when you stay within the limits of the system. I have carried a big-name-brand trunking HT five days a week for the past three years. I’m not overly impressed. Their good side shows when communication is needed between multiple agencies….ie, law enforcement needs utility company help or airport security help or the fire-rescue folks. Their not-so-good side surfaces in the complexity of the system – multiple linked repeater sites, fragile fiber optic interconnecting links between those sites, computer-controlled master sites, ……way too much hardware and software to work properly when the chips are really down. Murphy LOVES complexity.
But the biggest liability of the trunking radio systems (IMHO….as an engineer-ham) lies in the fact that these systems …much like cell phone systems, landline phone systems, pager systems, satellite phones, and internet service providers…will “saturate” or “overload” when the inevitable huge volume of emergency traffic is transferred onto the trunking radio system from the collapsed landline and cell phone system. Our system has seen at least one instance of this “saturation” from just local tornado touchdowns ….. and since these systems are multi-mega-million dollar systems, they are incredibly political animals (sacred cows) and no-one is ever likely to perform a serious investigation of an alleged failure or near-failure. They still need us…they just can’t admit it!
3.) As a ham volunteer that spent six days in Hancock County, MS beginning thirteen days AFTER landfall of Katrina……I can guarantee that THEY still needed us. I was the net control for Hancock County EOC for four of those days…and I personally handled and documented hundreds of critical messages (food, water, shelter, medical, law enforcement, fire/rescue, etc) messages for the EOC folks. This was in addition to the large volume of National Guard radio traffic and the Motorola EDACS radio system that was set up outside……
And while the Batwing folks were busting their humps to install the new Hancock County (trunking radio) system next door, HAM RADIO OPERATORS were dispatching the day shift public safety traffic in the communications trailer for the local authorities…..
And one of the batwing folks told me that the FIRST thing that he did upon arrival in Kiln, MS (pronounce that KILL, son) was to install a brand new Batwing HAM repeater so the hams could get to work. (Thanks, Bat-people!)
And probably the best evidence that THEY still need US was that after the local ESF-2 (that’s the new NIMS talk for “communication section”) saw the utility and function of the EOC ham radio network they purchased 10 new Yaesu high-power 2m mobile rigs with complete with mag-mount antennas and cigarette lighter power cables and issued them to Florida Forestry Service people to use in Hancock County…..so there were more eyes and ears available to carry out relief work.
So those of you that are inclined to help – know that there will always be room for hams when the chips are really down. But in the meantime, you might just take the (free) online introductory NIMS classes (bring coffee!!!) and get a little insight on what is going on in emergency management. Just having an idea of how things are organized when you get thrown into the fray will help just a little bit.
Most importantly, follow my Grandma’s advice….”Don’t get yer bowels in a growl”. Don’t get involved in arguments …..focus on whatever you personally can do to be ready for the next time hams are needed in your area….and they WILL be needed…..
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If You Need Me...
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by K9OSC on April 17, 2006
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Bob, you couldn't have said it better! I totally agree with your point of view.
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If You Need Me...
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by KC0KP on April 17, 2006
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Like other people who have responded, I can see both sides.
I am a trained firefighter and would be suspicious of someone who volunteered to work next to me who did not have any training. Structural firefighters who show up at a wild fire without proper training (certiftied by holding a "red" card) will be turned away. Wild firefighters will be turned away from a structure fire if they are not certified.
On the other hand, I am in charge of interagency communications for the city and county of Denver. If I need someone to man the amateur rig in my comm truck, I will take the first person with a license and the abitility to work the radio. I would me much more comfortable with someone who is trained in the incident command system but would not turn him out if he didnt. Our police department still has not figured out ICS but I would not chase them off. They are still qualified in providing safety and I would like them to be there.
Denver firefighters have to have hours of retraining every year to keep their certifications. This in spite of the fact that they do so much OJT they could teach the course in their sleep.
I just renewed my CPR card and found out that the protocols for defibrilation had all changed and had to be relearned. I am in my 50s and dont like being recertified for everything either but it is part of the job. But then amateur radio should never be a "job".
Craig
State of Colorado certified HazMat
Firefighter I
Wildland S130/190 red card
First Responder
Red Cross CPR and AED
FCC General Radio Telephone
Extra Class amateur license
FEMA IS195
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If You Need Me...
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by AI4CB on April 17, 2006
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>> Something has changed over the most recent ten years regarding Ham Radio's participation in emergency situations. Now, the fact that I am willing to help when needed is not good enough.<<
Just being willing to help never was good enough - you always had to know what you were doing. There has always been an explicit requirement that we improve our skills and evolve our capabilities:
97.1(a) "Recognition and ENHANCEMENT OF THE VALUE of the amatuer radio service to the public...particularly with respect to providing emergency communications."
97.1(b) "Continuation and EXTENSION of the amateur's proven ability to CONTRIBUTE TO THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE RADIO ART."
97.1(c) "Encouagement and IMPROVEMENT OF THE AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE through rules which provide for ADVANCING SKILLS IN BOTH COMMUNICATIONS AND TECHNICAL PHASES of the art.".
97.1(d) "EXPANSION of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of TRAINED OPERATORS, technicians and electronics experts."
Four out of the five Basis and Purpose clauses of the part 97 Amateur regulations say that the service should strive to increase it's value and capabilities. None of this says it's OK to stay stuck in the 1960s.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KG4RUL on April 17, 2006
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Well, if you are going to take the viewpoint of Bob and his supporters, maybe it is better that you DON'T get involved with emergency communications.
If I am at a shelter or manning the EOC desk, I want to know that the person I am dealing with knows how to accurately and efficiently pass information to me and accept information from me.
TRAINING IS ESSENTIAL TO ACCOMPLISH THIS!
Please, don't just show up and just become part of the problem and, not part of the solution.
Dennis KG4RUL
Berkeley County South Carolina ARES, Information Officer
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If You Need Me...
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by WA2JJH on April 17, 2006
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Yes BOB..Your correct! During 9/11 they wanted us to help. We did.
Now we are looked at as either "BUFFS", "GEEKS", and
Radio Freaks.
However, I would do it again if needed.
Perhaps it is akin to "THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED"
TNX FER UR timely post!
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K4JF on April 17, 2006
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"I have been trying to figure out for decades why hams think they get emergency action skills because they passed some part 97 electronics test and they know how to turn a vfo knob?"
Interesting question. I have never met one who thought so.
For over 30 years I have been involved in training those who felt they maybe could offer a service to their community, and not one thought he or she had pre-existing skills based on the ham exam. None.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K4JF on April 17, 2006
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"IF I thought I had to depend on hams for my life instead of trained police, fire, medical personnel, I would bend over and kiss my own ass good bye right now."
Well, bend over. Many of those trained personnel are hams.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 17, 2006
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Greta,
You obviously didn't read the article that the link points to.
I often write articles in support of the efforts of ARES operators and they get published in Hamsexy. I also write about the application of local laws, like the yellow light article. In order to stay with the flavor of the site, I sometimes add a bit of humor.
If you want to know why there aren't many pro-ARES posts on Hamsexy it is because what very few are submitted are written so poorly they aren't worth of publishing.
As for reporting me to the moderators, go for it. I would hazard to guess that I am taking you way more seriously than they would. But I am in a 'serious mood' this morning.
If you want to know my 'true colors' Google my call sign. You may find that I am an active member of the Muskegon County Amateur Radio Service, have been for a decade. I held the position of Event Coordinator until I needed more time to develop licensing classes and work on getting funding to develop deployable emergency communications systems.
There, feel better now?
Take some time to a) research a bit before you post and b) laugh once in a while.
I don't know if you are a ham or not so I will hold on the 73 and bid you farewell.
Mark K8MHZ
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by TIMOTHIUS on April 17, 2006
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I agree with you Bob. It seems that it is more likely that the agencies pushing the big training really are searching for a professional employee and not a volunteer. The key word here is VOLUNTEER! Another important word is AMATEUR! If I am in a jam I apprecieate all help I can get, but apparently some organizations only want help from persons with certain qualifications. Or at least trainable persons that will be able to do things the way that the organization want it done. Too bad, they lost my help. I do volunteer in our community but my time is precious too and refuse to take hours of training just to give of myself. there are plenty of folks who will gladly accept the help as I give it.
Tim, N5TJO
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 17, 2006
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"Yes BOB..Your correct! During 9/11 they wanted us to help. We did.
Now we are looked at as either "BUFFS", "GEEKS", and
Radio Freaks."
Don't blame 911 for that. Hams have been looked at like that for decades. I think it started when the first mobile rigs appeared and cars were outfitted with strange antennas.
Or it may have been earlier, but helping out at recent disasters had nothing to do with it.
Personally, I don't really care what the un-informed call me or think of me. I never got into emergency services to look cool or to be cool, only to be a trained asset that may never be used 'for real'. If we never had a disaster close enough for me to work I would be comfortably happy.
Anyone using amateur radio for possible emergency communications must realize that the hams aren't the heroes, they are support for the heroes, the paid, trained personnel that we hope we can help by taking over tasks which we are trained for.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 17, 2006
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"Or at least trainable persons that will be able to do things the way that the organization want it done. Too bad, they lost my help."
So, your 'help' would be doing things your way and not the way the organization (your served agency) wants things done.
That is the attitude that is hindering our efforts more than anything.
I, for one, would never admit to not being trainable, let alone post it on a site like this. Small wonder there is no call sign attached to the post.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 17, 2006
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N5TJO,
Oops,
My apologies, I didn't catch the call sign at the bottom of your message until I hit the 'post' button.
I guess I am getting so used to dealing with those that post without calls I was negligent in looking at the bottom for one.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W9WHE-II on April 17, 2006
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I'm no emcomm bunker-boy, but:
The attitude of some hams that "you need me", toward the Police, Fire or EMS people (or the legend in their own mind emcomm types) is self-defeating.
The reason so many PS entities prefer NOT to involve hams is the "know it all" attitude some hams present. I get the impression that the know it all emcomm types, because of some limited "training" have adopted the very same attitude as the PS people. (Although I would NEVER put emcomm types in the same league as the professionals). Training and experience is a good thing. It is what seperates the professionals (like the Police, Fire & EMS) from the Amaterus, i.e. hams.
Let's face facts:
1) With improved and fortified systems, PS RARELY needs emcomm types and that trend will continue; and
2) Because PS rarely needs emcomm types, emcomm people are threatened with near extintion, so they really don't need too many ordinary hams.
Since hams REFUSE to adopt APCO25 (the world-wide PS digital standard, this trend will only accellerate. Afterall, who needs emcomm that can't communicate!
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K3AN on April 17, 2006
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Fifty years ago, the volunteer ambulance service in our suburban county consisted of rapid transport of sick or injured people to the nearest hospital, by good-hearted and community-minded, but otherwise unqualified, volunteers. Injured and unconscious in a wreck? All the volunteer crew did was yank them out, quickly drop them on a stretcher, shove them into the back of a converted hearse, and take off with siren blaring.
Times have obviously changed, even for volunteer fire and rescue personnel. Everyone else involved or potentially involved in disaster services receives training. Why would anyone suggest that hams should somehow be exempted?
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by KI6LO on April 17, 2006
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As a member of the local ARES and RACES teams, I understand the need to be prepared - both in training and equipment. With today's environment the way it is, as one poster mentioned, alot of it has to do with insurance. As a team member, I am required to take certain courses to ensure I know what my responsibilites are and also what my limitations are, not physically but legally.
You mention that some groups are doing things other than communications. That is definitely outside the focus of what ARES and RACES are there to do in assisting our served agencies. We are communicators first and foremost. We are not there to act as a pool
of police support for traffic control, etc. nor are we there to dish out food in the Red Cross chow lines. These and other worthy positions can be manned by RACES/ARES members but should not be part of their RACES/ARES duties or assignments. This is why we take courses covering emergency communications and Incident Command System so we know how to handle emcomms and work with services others under a central command scheme in the effort to pass timely communications precisely and accurately.
As to digital communincation systems, if you got the equipment and resource to make it happen, GREAT! If not, we all should learn about it so if you need to operate the equipment, you can. I agree that I should not be forced into obtaining expensive equipment just so I can VOLUNTEER to help. If I need to do that, then the served agencies need to either supply the equipment and training or supply me a retainer (stipend $$) and I will get the equipment and set it up to work. Passing information via digital methods is the most accurate way to do so but it also requires the most infrastructure. Not just anybody with a FM HT can jump into the fray and help out when digital mode is required.
I am happy to help out when called on and I try to stay abreat of the latest methods and modes so I can be useful when called on. But I too do not think that as individual hams, we should be required to match up to a tax dollar supported public agency in equipment procurement. I know for myself that that will never happen at my shack as I can't afford it.
As the Boys Scouts motto says, "Be Prepared"....
Gene KI6LO
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by K8MHZ on April 17, 2006
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The need to have good equipment does not dictate that individual hams have to supply it.
Many ARES groups have achieved 501(c)3 tax status which enables them to operate using donated funds. Our county gained $8,500 for a new ARES repeater on top of our County Building. The County is also building an EOC in which we will have our own room there. Most, if not all, of the equipment in the EOC will be provided by the County. We will have full coverage of HF and VHF/UHF plus digital modes as well.
We have amateur stations in both of the large hospitals, funding provided by the hospitals.
We have routing training exercise involving our County Emergency Manager and the hospitals.
We have a 28 foot motorhome that the County sold us for a dollar. Once used as the County's Mobile EOC, we now us it as our Mobile Command Vehicle.
We have a station at the Red Cross and they let us use their conference rooms for training.
Once a year we have a Skywarn training session in a 1000 seat auditorium whose space is provided by the Mona Shores School District.
We aren't a large town but we have managed to get the cooperation of our public officials by showing them, through training and exercise, that we are serious about what we do.
Our EC is a cop. The one before him was a Firefighter. The wannabes were weeded out a couple years ago.
We have a pretty good effort here and I am proud to be a part of it, our operators are doing a good job and have no problem with ongoing training sessions.
We also have a great clubhouse at the Muskegon Area Amateur Radio Council's property near Lake Michigan for those that want to stick with the hobby of ham radio. We all get on very well and most of us have great senses of humor and community pride. We are all very proud of our tickets as well.
When I first got involved with our local ARES group there was no training to speak of, no nets, nothing. I have to say that it appears that the public service events we do (for training) and our classes have helped us get taken seriously by County Emergency Services.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by NS6Y_ on April 17, 2006
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All I find is a long and somewhat interesting dialogue on flashing yellow lights.
If flashing yellows are that bad, why is every car equipped with flashing yellows to be used to warn others? They're called hazard lights.
Anyway, I just love all the ppl here saying hams won't be useful in an emergency because ..... and then the multi-letter voodoo spells start multiplying. All that fancy um, stuff, is very brittle and does not stand up well in emergencies. And while we need to learn newer modes than CW and voice in the ham community, we are - psk31, packet, wifi (wifi's not a ham mode but there's a big overlap between younger hams and the ability to set up wifi networks and antennas for them etc.)
Local hams I really look up to and who actually think about when the emergency happens (not if) say the one shortcoming is in the ability to handle message traffic, and the ability in a lot of new hams to do this without repeaters. One local emergency group thus holds their weekly net without using a repeater, because the repeater won't be there in a real emergency situation. This is probably the kind of stuff to really work on, being able to handle traffic well, simplex, no repeaters, cell network will be down, etc.
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by K9NYO on April 17, 2006
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Bob,
I'm sorry if someone made you feel unneeded or unnecessary in a time of need. When we call for volunteers, all we expect is a willingness to cooperate and a modicum of training--such as the ability to communicate over a net. Shame on whomever turned you away.
The amateur radio emergency communications courses are excellent training, though, for those who want to delve into this facet of the hobby. Some like CW, some like satellites and some like emcomm. Weather spotter training is good, too, so the NWS gets good ground truth reports and not "it's really windy here" reports.
But no one should turn away someone with a mic in hand that wants to cooperate and help. There's plenty of good to be done by anyone willing.
73 DE K9NYO
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by KC0SHZ on April 17, 2006
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Training does do one thing that is vital. It lets people who are EC's and assistant EC's know who are HAMs that want to take things seriously, and therefore can be depended on. This is probably an understressed part of the "training issue".
If you show up for Skywarn training, you get incrementally better at it and if you show up, the NWS and the county EC know who you are.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W2BBQ on April 17, 2006
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Thanks again Bob for the thread. Informative read. Mostly sympathize with your statements. Excellent follow up comments and info from many other posters. I am however befuddled that neither morse code or fan dipoles have been mentioned.
I must agree with those that champion the world-history-time-honored-survival senario of the employment of common sense. In a real disaster or emergency of any size, it is unfathomable to reject REASONABLE and EFFECTIVE volunteer service assistance from anyone who shows up to offer it. Gov. agencies have failed the citizenry they are supposed to serve time and again....always swearing to "get it right" for next time and they never do. Whereas the disaster-afflicted citizen would gladly accept the reasonable and effective help they need irreguardless of who was offering it or what certification pips they have on their name badges.
A tornado comes through, takes out the local cell phones and blows your momma's car into a ditch. She is stranded and has minor injuries. Passerbys come along and stop to offer assistance. Most are just regular folks. A couple are CB'ers. One is a vounteer firefighter reporting for duty. One by golly is even a ham. But your momma questions them all thoroughly about what training certifications they have, is their equipment certified, are they using PS25 radio gear, ect...ect...All answer huh? what? no, maybe, some, kindof....but I'm here now and can help you! Momma replies thanks but no thanks, I'll wait for a fully U.S. Gubment' certified, FEMA okey dokey'd representative to come along and hep me out of this ditch. Never mind I'm out in the country and it's getting dark and the buzzards are circling overhead.
If you have chosen to be a stickler for every rule and regulation that gubment' can come up with and demand compliance thereby....then I do pity you. Some have to for their job requirements and that is unfortunate. But that does not apply to the 99.99% of regular folks. Let common sense prevail and lend your fellows a helping hand when the hour strikes. In the meantime, if ARES and the Red Cross and FEMA and whoever else doesn't want me unless I kiss their butts 9 ways to Sunday....then they can get by without me......and they're "getting by" with alot less volunteers these days.
How's that workin' for 'em?
ARES participation is at an all time low and it's not due to a lack of willingness to provide reasonable and effective common sense help in a time of need.
73 w2bbq
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by KG4RUL on April 17, 2006
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"A tornado comes through, takes out the local cell phones and blows your momma's car into a ditch. She is stranded and has minor injuries. Passerbys come along and stop to offer assistance. Most are just regular folks. A couple are CB'ers. One is a vounteer firefighter reporting for duty. One by golly is even a ham. But your momma questions them all thoroughly about what training certifications they have, is their equipment certified, are they using PS25 radio gear, ect...ect...All answer huh? what? no, maybe, some, kindof....but I'm here now and can help you! Momma replies thanks but no thanks, I'll wait for a fully U.S. Gubment' certified, FEMA okey dokey'd representative to come along and hep me out of this ditch. Never mind I'm out in the country and it's getting dark and the buzzards are circling overhead. "
=======
What a BS example! Of course, the local emergency folks are going to take a report on an emergency from the ham operator! They may even have an association with the REACT folks and would take the report from GASP! a CBer!!!
Those at the accident scene who have first aid experience will do what they can! The firefighter will do his/her part! Momma will get help!
Sounds like you would just run around in an ever tightening circle and yell "The sky is falling, The sky is falling!". GET REAL!!!!!
Dennis KG4RUL
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by WA1RNE on April 17, 2006
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Bob;
I have some questions pertaining to the issues you raise:
"If you can't bring a portable Packet Radio station, or a mobile WinLink 2000 setup, you are not doing enough.
"We have been told that there is a "requirement" to establish networks of digital communications so that we are prepared to handle emergency traffic in case a tornado touches down nearby."
"We are made to feel guilty if we don't attend weather spotter classes and become part of Citizens' Corps and taken first aid classes. If we haven't completed certain courses, we will not be "allowed" to participate, should there be a real disaster."
>> First of all, who is "WE"? Are you a member of an Emergency Management Agency, RACES group, etc???
Secondly, -WHO- is stating that these are requirements? What agency and in what city, town and state?
Much of what you're saying sound like assumptions made on your part or someone else and are just not correct in a real life setting- maybe with the exception of your observations or opinions about ARES operations.
>> Since when do city, town or state agencies make Packet Radio and WinLink primary operator capabilities?
I have yet to see ONE single article that provides ANY real data that proves WinLink has been used as the primary mode of communications for a single disaster or emergency situation.
"Ham Radio has a mandate to assist the government when asked to do so. However, there's nothing in Part 97, or anywhere else, that prescribes what kind of communication is required, nor is there anything that requires a certain level of training to help out. Review 97.1 and 97.4 to verify this. The FCC rules are very vague concerning emergency communications.'
>> Since when are amateurs "mandated" to assist the government? We aren't "mandated" to assist anyone. the FCC is not specific because they don't need to be.
"Now, nearly every police car in this part of the country has a laptop computer which allows the patrol officer access to incredible information, all over the radio. It's secure by being encrypted, it's private and it's more accurate than spoken word dispatching."
>> What's this got to do with emergency communications
involving amateur radio?? This has become a necessary capability for law enforcement field operations. That doesn't mean that emergency voice communications are no longer useful or need to be replaced by data. Voice communications is still used as the primary means of dispatch, and all tactical and emergency communications.
As for the ARRL's brainchild known as ARES, your observations are also typical of what I observed in Massachusetts. They slap on the official ARRL garb and come rolling in with the high and mighty "I'm a trained emergency communications pro" attitude and demand they take over. I can tell you this: the Massachusetts Emergency Management Agency does not make ARES protocols a requirement - including that nonsense about "official" weather spotters.
Actually, that's a fine position for ARES to take; they can run the weather nets and train themselves in traffic control (and refreshment operations) and leave emergency communications to the Emergency Management teams.
As a suggestion, you should check out the State of Wisconsin's Emergency Management Plan.
From your states web site, check this out: Review of Wisconsin's Emergency Preparedness Plans
http://www.wisgov.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=5082
LESSON 13: Communications Interoperability
Hurricane Katrina silenced many communications systems in the impacted Gulf States. Most land lines were knocked out during the hurricane, cell coverage went down and many jurisdictions and emergency responders could not communicate with each other due to disruptions in emergency communications systems.
* Assessment: Communication interoperability is the ability to share information in real time between agencies. Reliable radio communications across multiple disciplines and multiple jurisdictions is critical to any effective response to a major emergency incident. To ensure that Wisconsin appropriately assesses the communications capabilities and the gaps to that capability, the Governor, by Executive Order #87, established the State Interoperability Executive Council (SIEC).
** Recommendation: Our ability to communicate across temporary bridges notwithstanding, there is significant room for improvement in Wisconsin's communication interoperability. The Office of Justice Assistance funded approximately $2.9 million to 13 grant requesters in September to address communication interoperability requirements. A second round of grants will be made in the coming months.
The State Interoperability Executive Committee should continue working toward the goal of communication interoperability in public safety agencies and promoting the P25 two-way communication standard statewide.
No mention of amateur radio - and certainly not ARES or other "paramilitary types" taking over....
Chris, WA1RNE
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by K8MHZ on April 17, 2006
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NS6Y,
You found the link I wanted you to. I have been writing pro-ARES articles for Hamsexy since almost the beginning of the site. I really never threw humor into the posts until the yellow light thing. That article got me the position of Michigan Bureau Chief ;) The State law in Michigan addresses the factory mounted yellow flashers. There is a chart available outlining legal use in Michigan. The statute only addresses lights on vehicles, not on barricades or portable warning devices.
If you look at the Hamsexy archives you will see young ham's cars and even motorcycles that they proudly consider Hamsexy. Hamsexy can be either a compliment or an insult, depending on how one uses it and ones point of view. The site thrives on humor (my definition) and will post just about anything funny. I was really surprised that they posted my first letters as they weren't funny, they pointedly attacked the detractors of the overall ARES effort. Since they were nice enough to post several serious articles I thought I would write a bit of dry humor for them.
Search the site for 'ARES done right'. That should lead you to one of my posts.
Thanks for having a sense of humor.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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equipment plus hams
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by NL7SX on April 17, 2006
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Another aside to this is IF you are accepted for participation, make sure your equipment goes along with you. It's ok to "shadow" an official (if all you have is an HT) but make the crisis and the officials use your capabilities if you are capable of more. If your system is data, ATV, APRS with GPS, voice on hf, vhf and uhf (and it's all mobile) make them accept or reject your whole system. This is another argument for organization prior to the disaster. Hams can provide interoperability.
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by AB9FA on April 17, 2006
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It has been said;
A good mechanic is very good to have.
A good mechanic with tools is even better.
A good mechanic with tools and an education in his craft is great.
Times have changed and with this change comes the requirement of different skill sets.
I see the need with continuing to learn this craft and become a better communicator.
Bob, your skills are needed now as much as they were years ago but there is an added burden that this fast paced world now requires. We all need to adapt to the ever changing requirements.
I only wish I could pick up this new digital stuff as easily as the younger operators seem to do.
Don't let thisd stuff get you down. If you are needed I know you will be the first one there, the new digital guys will need your guidance and leadership.
73,
Jay, AB9FA
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by VE0FK on April 17, 2006
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" It's ok to "shadow" an official (if all you have is an HT) but make the crisis and the officials use your capabilities if you are capable of more. If your system is data, ATV, APRS with GPS, voice on hf, vhf and uhf (and it's all mobile) make them accept or reject your whole system."
I don't like to criticize, but that's the craziest thing I've read here. Unless I've misread this, you're suggesting that officials should use all the bells and whistles you think you're capable of, whether those capabilities are needed or not, or you're going to walk?? Did you mistype that or am I misunderstanding you?
Respectfully,
Dave VE0FK/VE9FK
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by W9WHE-II on April 17, 2006
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KI6LO writes:
"As to digital communincation systems..... Not just anybody with a FM HT can jump into the fray and help out when digital mode is required"
Exactly the problem!
With ICOM going D-star, and ALL OF the PS manufacturers going APCO25, the eventual result is plain to see. Hello.....MOST HAMS will soon BE INCAPABLE of communicating, let alone monitoring PS communications.
W9WHE
Fully APCO25 compliant.
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by W9WHE-II on April 17, 2006
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NL7SX writes:
"make them accept or reject your whole system"
That type of thinking is EXACTLY why so many PS people REJECT ham support.
W9WHE
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by KC8VWM on April 17, 2006
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Another aside to this is **IF** you are accepted for participation, make sure your equipment goes along with you.
-------
This **IF** statement is pretty much laughable from where I am sitting in my chair.
Here's the scenario:
I sit here with 12 years of full blown ER Trauma room experience under my belt, "Street level" EMS training and live regional disaster experience including direct involvement with the development for a municipal Nuclear response and disaster plan for the community. I am certified as an ACLS / BLCS instructor, have extensive nursing certifications and direct personal experience.
...So, you actually mean to tell me **if** I volunteered my services to these people today, some idiot is actually going to sit there and question me **IF** I am somehow "qualified" to play with some Fisher Price toy radio equipment during an actual emergency event?
...Ha! Unbelievable.
How about I respond back with something like, "Get out of my way, your selection process is hindering much needed assistance."
I don't need RACES / ARES / FEMA or any other agency for that matter to attempt to validate my background, experience and extensive training in the field of emergency services.
...I never have and I never will.
Trust me, when it all hits the big fan, I won't be running up to them panting like a "begging" dog to offer my services or expertise. It's more like it will be the other way around.
I would most likely volunteer and serve my time in another capacity like EMS, a hospital or other "official" capacity anyways since I probably don't stand any chance of meeting the more stringent and more important role of ham radio "emergency communicator."
(Somebody needs to get real)
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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by NN8Y on April 17, 2006
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Hey, dangit, I didn't get any food at the skywarn training. What is this? Some twisted joke?
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 17, 2006
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Charles,
With such a background I doubt that you would be called upon to pass traffic using amateur radio during a true emergency. I think you will be busy elsewhere.
Now, if you were in a situation where you had to use your EMS skills and had to rely on someone else to relay information for you, would you rather you have someone that has no training, not even on an awareness level, or someone that does?
Training (trust me) also sorts out those that would a) fabricate false information and pass it. b) Refuse to follow orders c) want to be the center of attention and create problems and d) abruptly leave their posts with no notice for reasons like 'having a smoke'.
We have actually had do deal with licensed operators that have done the above. And worse.
I hope, with your training and thirst for knowledge, you realize the importance of training for anyone who is really interested in helping out and not interested in inflating their egos.
73 my good man,
Mark K8MHZ
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by WA2JJH on April 17, 2006
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K8MHZ, You are very funny. You insult people that do have extensive medical training. How many times have you given CPR? I like Charles VFW have similar training. Charles can varify my claim.
In fact as a BIO-MEDICAL engineer, a few of my devices are used today.
If it makes you feel better....I would never lift a finger to help you! (: Have a cyanotic day. Code out, either morse or cardio!
O
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KF4VGX on April 17, 2006
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9-11 !
What a way to get an education :(.
That was not the way we needed to learn a lesson.
I would say we were in need if an education long before 9 - 11. Perhaps it would not have happen .
Education :) .
Education is the answer , learn by any means you can .
The internet ,an abundant " Free " information source.
VOIP can bring the class room to your shack.
without having to leave your home.
2006 , Times have changed ,All eyes need to be open !
Actually I don't think any of us would refuse to help or refuse help if lives depended on it .
Amateurs need to be open minded to what this day and age has to offer .
Lives can be saved , anything can and may fail.
However use what works at the time .
Its better to have many options other than just one .
Wake Up ! Wake Up !
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by W0IPL on April 17, 2006
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"I'll be there when....." The strongest statement that I can make and
be sure it will not be deleted is "HORSE FEATHERS!"
What you are actually saying is that you are not willing to take
training, you are unwilling to commit yourself or your equipment and
really think this is all a joke. "Strong words" say you. True, but
also accurate words. In the Hayman fire a few years back in Colorado
(you remember, 133 THOUSAND acres and lasted six WEEKS. We ran out of
operators on the third DAY. Where were all of those that said "I'll
be there when you need me"? No where to be found. They would not and
had not made a commitment. They were not there. Six weeks, 133K acres,
thousands evacuated, how much larger does it have to get?!
Most of you seem unaware that there was a Presidential Decree in 2004
that said all public service entities that receive federal dollars
(that's almost every one of them) WILL have NIMS training by 2005 AND
that includes volunteers working for them! Not much ambiguity there
huh? Don't care if you like it or not. The Feds pay the bills in large
incidents and like the saying goes about the golden rule, he with the
gold makes the rules. Live with it.
Incident Command System (ICS) courses required are:
IS-100, IS-200 and IS-700. Recommended IS-800.
ALL ARE FREE people FREE. If you read at a fifth grade level it
should take you no more than eight to ten hours to do ALL of them.
If you want summaries, do a Google search on W0IPL and ECom.
I have the summaries posted plus links to all of the FEMA courses so
you can get credit.
ARECC: The ARECC courses were released almost a full year before
they were ready. Due to the slow turnaround on updates, they are
- almost - at the level they should have been at initial release. I'll
not go into details of why on this forum.
Amateur Radio is a hobby,
Emergency Communication is a COMMITMENT!
What you do in spending time in training for Emergency Communication
(ECom) is to establish that you have made a commitment. That
commitment is what distinguishes you from a blabbering CB'er. Anyone
can key the microphone and babble. It takes a communicator to expend
as little time as possible on each message and yet have conveyed ALL
information needed. That takes training. Training that we do NOT get
in our day to day enjoyment of the hobby.
Anyone can grab a microphone and run a Billy-Joe-Bob-Sam-Phred-Al's
red neck babble net. To run a true communication net, it takes training
and practice. Training and practice you do not get in our normal day to
day enjoyment of our hobby.
When I got my NRA certification as a firearms instructor it was not to
be able to train others but rather to assure myself that I knew as much
about firearms as I thought. Turns out that I was very close in how
much I actually knew BUT I also learned a whole lot about how to teach
that knowledge to others. THAT is why we train. To know the subject so
well that we can teach others. You say "So what. I don't want to teach
others." And I say - You need to be able to teach others to be
effective as a communicator. It is only when you have that much
knowledge that you are effective. I have yet to work an event or
incident (see the ICS training for the difference between them) that I
have not been able to provide real-time training to those that needed
it and on a some occasions, receive more training myself.
The time you spend on training is a visible measure of how much of a
commitment you are willing to make. A measure that most served agencies
pay a lot of attention to. If you want to be able to go into an EOC, a
Fire Base, or anything beyond the very basic evacuation shelter that
the Red Cross runs, the agency(ies) REQUIRE training so they know (or
at least have some assurance) you know what the (bleep) you are doing.
No training, no access. To those that say "If they don't want me the
way I am, I'll stay home." GOOD, please stay home. Walk-on operators
have proven to be detrimental to virtually every incident in the last
twenty years.
Credibility is hard to build. Especially when we have overgrown CB
types that walk-on to an incident and try to take over. An Amateur
Radio License does NOT make you a communicator but training helps.
Pat Lambert, W0IPL
Colorado ARES Training Manager
and Colorado RACES member
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by GRETA on April 17, 2006
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This training you speak of, have any of you ever really attended it? I went to the training that they offered here in my County. I filled out all the paperwork. I went through the background checks. I paid my fees and I went to class, which lasted 8 hours.
During this whole time ham radio was only mentioned 3 or 4 times. Most of the people instructing in these classes had quite a pomp's, righteous and egotistical attitude. It was almost as if we were only spectators.
Very similar to K8MHZ and his idea of he being a good person. Despicable is more to the point of view from what I have read. A hypocrite.
In the 7th hour a speaker from the Red Cross Addressed us. She asked how many in the session were hams. We all raised our hands and then she suddenly said, "If you want you can leave now". She contenued with some very discouraging words towards hams. At one point a fellow student in the class questioned her. Her reply was that they had no use for hams and their OLD radios. She directly blames hams for the current congressional investigation that the Red Cross was involved with. She then went on to say that they have no use for any of us unless we want to volunteer for general services duties. I questioned her as to what positions hams would be offered. Her reply was direct. It was more towards the logistic, food service and unpaid office help. I again asked her about the use of ham radio during disasters. She became quite taken by my instance, saying that hams have a track record similar to cowboys. Of which apparently they have no need. Nor want us to volunteer for their services.
She contenued on stating that they have a newer means of commucations and that hams are antiquated, slow and ego problems that are only in the way of progress.
When another asked, "Why then was the County asking for us to attend this training"? Her answer was, she didn't know. Unless we were just killing time. She contenued, saying that they were mandated by the TSA (Homeland Security) and FEMA to develop a pool of names and call signs. She said that it was highly unlikely that we would ever be called to action.
Clearly, it was just to get the numbers they needed to meet the requirements and a show of good faith.
When she finished talking a discussion broke out among the hams. We all had felt like it was a waist of time to attend this so called "training". Training, which had little to do with ham radio or its operation.
After all she did keep referring to it as a "RADIO HOBBY"
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 17, 2006
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Mark,
My perspective is unique as I have sat on both sides of the fence as a ham and emergency services so let me share my "take" for the benefit of the ham radio community.
I feel there are many hams out there that are already more than well qualified for the scope of this task in my opinion.
When I was working in EMS, I recall a specific list of ham operators that was kept on file in our emergency response plans.
The way our community disaster plan was setup was to include ham operators when the chips where down for communications both inside the ER and outside in the community. They were basically intended as "relay liaison" stations setup for the purpose of communication between our ER, local police and other emergency services that we would otherwise not communicate using conventional means.
We were given specific instructions how this was to be handled and implemented. For example, we were specifically instructed that any information given to hams should be:
A) Non critical or life threatening.
B) Non Confidential
C) Kept as generic as possible and to avoid the use of any medical jargon for increased clarity in the intended message.
D) All messages would include 3 elements in the communication which must always include:
1)Message
2)Sender
3)Receiver
..AND a verification process to ensure this process always occured in that order.
It was understood that ham communications had certain limitations but basically they are useful for "non emergency" communication therefore any "emergency" communication would not become overwhelmed with what we termed as "non essential" communications.
EMS has a specific policy in place that clearly dictates that any medical intervention provided by means of radio communications can *ONLY* be provided to a qualified person in the field by a Physician "DIRECTLY" no "ands" "if's" or "buts"
In addition, this communication process involves a certain set of complicated "protocols" (kind of like a directional roadmap) that only the physician and trained EMS persons would possibly understand.
The purpose of this protocal roadmap was to save time and to communicate essential and relevant information to the situation at hand. For example there are situations where a person would not be required to report an individuals condition based on a 10 item Glaucoma Symptom Scale.
Another consideration is that it would take too long for hams to reply with a question or to form a reply when seconds are critical in EMS.
So, you see hams could never be placed into the position of relaying this sort of communication anyways. Not by choice, not by lack of training, but rather because it would be very dangerous to do so.
Hams are best utilized in "non emergency - non critical" situations where the movement of supplies, communications between EOC's and where health and welfare traffic or control may be required.
I don't feel training should get any more complicated than that. The problem as the author suggests is that it is in fact becoming more complicated than that recently.
Just to give you an idea of what I am talking about exactly, just have a look at the following course (ham radio degree?) outline intended for ham radio volunteers which I feel is utterly ridiculous:
******************************************
RACES I
A trainee who has passed the Basic Operator Course examination, has been equipment certified for Level II, but been a team member for less than 1 year. (teamed on deployments with RACES II operator)
RACES II a RACES I operator who has also been equipment certified to Level III, has been a team member for not less than six months, has had a satisfactory evaluation for at least one Level III activation or graded full-scale exercise, and has completed additional training determined by the office of emergency management for a volunteer to be deemed “fully qualified” for EMAC-deployment anywhere in the Commonwealth. Additional training proposed for a Level II RACES cert is:
• Health & Safety Awareness for Disaster Workers – internet class+ written test
• Basic Orienteering and Outdoor Survival – live workshop +test
• Packet Operator Workshop – live workshop +exercise
• FM Simplex Operating Workshop – live workshop +exercise
• HF NVIS Operating Workshop internet class, live workshop +exercise
• Terrorism Awareness – EMI or NFA cert
• ICS 200 for Single Resources and Initial Action Incidents – EMI cert.
• IS-700 Intro to the National Incident Management System (1.0 CEUs)
RACES III
a RACES II operator who has also completed FEMA basic leadership training, has been a team member for at least one year and has six months satisfactory experience as a Team Leader: Proposed FEMA EMI courses recommended for a Level III RACES Cert are:
•IS-120, An Orientation to Community Disaster Exercises (1.0 CEUs)
•IS-230 Principles of Emergency Management – Professional Development Series (1.0 CEUs)
•IS-240 Leadership & Influence – Professional Development Series (0.9 CEUs)
•IS-241 Decision Making & Problem Solving – Professional Development Series (0.8 CEUs)
•IS-242 Effective Communication – Professional Development Series (0.8 CEUs)
•IS-235 Emergency Planning – Professional Development Series (1.0 CEUs)
•IS-800 – Introduction to the National Response Plan (1.0 CEUs)
RACES IV
a Level III operator who has at least a year's experience as a Team Leader, with additional relevant training and experience (TBD) to be Command Qualified to act as an RO or ARO, able to organize, plan and execute a deployment, working directly with multiple served agencies in an ICS environment. Proposed FEMA EMI courses recommended for a Level IV RACES cert are:
• IS-139 Exercise Design (1.5 CEUs = 15 Contact Hours)* New *
• IS-271 Anticipating Hazardous Weather & Community Risk (1.0 CEUs)
• IS-275 EOC Role in Community Preparedness, Response, and Recovery (1.0 CEUs)
• IS-288 Role of Voluntary Agencies in Emergency Management (1.0 CEUs)
• IS-324 Community Hurricane Preparedness (1.0 CEUs)
• IS-546 Continuity of Operations (COOP) Awareness Course (0.1 CEUs) *New*
• IS-547 Introduction to Continuity of Operations (COOP) (0.5 CEUs) *New*
***********************************
Now for crying out loud! Is this a "volunteer" position or are you training to become the ICS itself?
Quite frankly, this outline involves many areas of expertise that DON"T involve the essential function and requirement involving radio communication and ONLY radio communications alone!
This is where I feel there is a problem. Hams are NOT emergency responders, the fire department, the military or anything else.
No one in emergency services expect for hams themselves expect to do anything other than want to "communicate basic & non critical" information.
I can tell you what *Would* be useful though.
...More simplified data communications.
I can't begin to tell you how much "paperwork" that needs to fly around various agencies and departments during these events. Let me give you an example.
The X Ray department needs to have a list of critical patients provided to them so they can conduct diagnostic tests according to order of severity.
Ham operator (A) stationed at the ER has the technology to scan and send this list via radio to ham operator (B) stationed in the X Ray department.
So, you see.. This is a solution ham could provide. There are in fact may other mundane applications that *COULD* be utilized, but the focus of hams recently doesn't identify these needs but rather it identifies a entirely different "gung ho" agenda of what "hams" feel they should be doing instead.
Well, put up the superhero cape already because real heros don't wear them in the real world.
How does all this training listed above serve this basic need and function as described above in emergency services?...
...Simply put.. It doesn't!!
The problem as I see it is that the training is starting to go beyond the role of simple "emergency communicator" and is slowly becoming the role of "emergency responder" or something that is really just frowned on by those involoved in the professional capacity.
Don't ever expect this approach to be accepted by the emergency services community because it was never what they intended hams to do in the first place.
Hams are only part of this entire process. A memeber of the process if you will. They themselves are not "THE" process themselves.
I admit they have an important role at times, but only as long as they continue to identify and fill the voids and shortcomings in emergency services communications.
No, ham radio communications during an emergency event is never going to be "glamorous" work by any stretch of the imagination. What I can tell you is that it's viewed as a much needed and most welcomed "relief" to the stretched resources of emergency services in these scenarios. To those individuals that are truely there just to help out, my hat is off to you.
It's for this reason that I support and commend those individuals that volunteer and serve. I feel that all this extra training the ham radio community is demanding of it's participants is only serving to "degrade" their credibility in the eyes of the professional emergency services community. That is not what they ever intended hams to do and I think you will find that the real "professionals" are going to start thinking we know too much for our own good.
These "excessive" training requirements are completely out of line in the scope of what we are intended to do and only serve to discourage, drive away and to further reduce this "pool" of potential communicators that could otherwise serve this basic function. Hams are a great help to the emergency services community when the chips are down.
So is all this training going to *REALLY* help emergency services or does it serve to further complicate matters?
Emergency services don't want self inflated "credibility" ego's, they want people who can offer genuine and sincere support *AS DIRECTED*
Leave the rest of the work up to the professionals or expect them to retailiate to your efforts.
...You decide.
Again Mark, thanks for listening and please accept my best 73 OM.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by TIMOTHIUS on April 17, 2006
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K8MHZ
I don't recall ever saying that I wasn't trainable but you may think what you want. I will say this. I am a very active volunteer in my community and I get damn tired of attending training to satify the powers that be. I may never use the training, and I hope that I don't ever have to use it.
I will also say that I have participated in several disaster events in my life time. Each time the agencies that needed help were greatful just to have bodies that were willing to help. At the time training wasn't very important.
You want to know something. Training or not we still did a good job and it was worth it and I'll do it again if needed! Trained or untrained.....
Tim, N5TJO
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If You Need Me...
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by KI6LO on April 17, 2006
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Concerning training, there is a motto painted on one of the SPAWAR buildings in San Diego, CA that pretty much sums up what training means to the U.S. Navy.
"THE MORE WE TRAIN IN PEACE, THE LESS WE BLEED IN WAR".
KI6LO
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by AE6IP on April 17, 2006
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"Anyway, I just love all the ppl here saying hams won't be useful in an emergency because ..... and then the multi-letter voodoo spells start multiplying. All that fancy um, stuff, is very brittle and does not stand up well in emergencies."
Wrong. As long ago as the Loma Prieta earthquake, all that 'fancy stuff' was more than adequate to handle all but the most extreme emergencies.
And it's been getting ever since.
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If You Need Me...
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by AB0WR on April 17, 2006
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w0ipl:
What you are actually saying is that you are not willing to take training, you are unwilling to commit yourself or your equipment and really think this is all a joke. "Strong words" say you. True, but also accurate words. In the Hayman fire a few years back in Colorado (you remember, 133 THOUSAND acres and lasted six WEEKS. We ran out of operators on the third DAY. Where were all of those that said "I'll be there when you need me"? No where to be found. They would not and had not made a commitment. They were not there. Six weeks, 133K acres, thousands evacuated, how much larger does it have to get?!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How hard does it have to get? I don't think you understand what the word "commitment" actually means, do you?
*Everyone* that I know that is not retired has made a committment to work. That commitment means being there everyday and performing whatever function you do. It is impossible for most to make a committment like that and still be able to afford to do 24/7 volunteer work like communication relays at a fire.
You may be in a position to make a "commitment" to serving as a volunteer communicator in situations like this. Most of us are not. I tried to get a leave of absence approved to go help with Katrina. Know how long it took to get an approval? 4 weeks!! It has to be approved by lines of management and the by our BOD and they only meet once per month.
Hams do our best work when we are in the directly affected area. Do you realize how many hams in Colorado would be affected by a 133,000 acre fire? Maybe 20! Probably less.
I don't think emergency service volunteering is a joke. But I also take issue with people who think it should be *the* top priority in our lives. When that happens it is no longer a hobby or even a service, it becomes a profession.
It peeves me no end to have someone like you take volunteers to task for the level of volunteering they are able to committ to.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
kc8vwm:
Charles,
Most of what you have said makes sense!
Hams are at their most valuable when on-site where the professionals can't be because of timing and location (e.g. a weather-spotter at the site of a tornado touchdown passing initial damage assessment and injury data - be it EMT quality or not) or in taking unnecessary load off the professionals so they can serve the public better.
Some local ARES groups have the idea that training to the level of local police dispatchers is required to be a full-fledged member. What a joke! Some of them have the time and inclination to do that (and that's ok) but most of the hams in the county don't.
One of the best ideas I have heard of for hams in a widespread disaster is as volunteer intake teams. It doesn't require life-saving skills to help direct incoming volunteers where to park, where to go to register, to liason with NGO's to both gather and disseminate volunteer information, etc. But it would sure help free up police and NGO personnel for other duties. Yet when this is brought up to the ARES teams I know, it is beneath them! They want to be the front-line hero's dispatching the Coast Guard helicopters to their next rescue!
tim ab0wr
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KI0KY on April 17, 2006
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As both an ARES District EC and a Red Cross Volunteer I would like to add a little to the reported comments made by a Red Cross Person about ham radio operators.
One of our local Red Cross leaders said this about ham radio opertors when he was in Punta Gorda, FL in 2004. This is just about an exact quote: " I had a satellite phone, two cell phones, and a regular phone. None of them worked. If I needed to communcate with any of the other sites I was resposible for, I went across the hall and handed a message to one of the ham operators."
I also recall a post on another reflector that described how a Red Cross shelter manager, during Katrina, ran after the hams leaving in a vehicle. She was begging them not to leave as they were they only means of communication from the shelter. The hams were only leaving for a short time to take care of some matter and the manager mistakenly thought they were leaving for good.
Regarding the intitial post: "You fight like you have trained. Train like you will fight."
KI0KY
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 17, 2006
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It doesn't require life-saving skills to help direct incoming volunteers where to park, where to go to register, to liaison with NGO's to both gather and disseminate volunteer information, etc. But it would sure help free up police and NGO personnel for other duties. Yet when this is brought up to the ARES teams I know, it is beneath them! They want to be the front-line hero's dispatching the Coast Guard helicopters to their next rescue!
tim ab0wr
-------------
Agreed.
Don't get me wrong. It's not that the service hams provide isn't important to the communities that they serve, it's just that the training needs to relevant and focused for the "real world" tasks at hand.
ARES/ RACES is never going to replace emergency public services in a million years anyways, so what in the heck is all this hazmat, nuclear response, CERCLA incident response, terrorist counter action response training all about?
Looking at some of the comments, I am left to wonder when did RACES/ARES suddenly become the U.S Navy /Military or an alternative to FEMA or something?
I suppose they are going to be in for a real disappointment when they finally find out the truth.
Let me tell you, it's not all that glamorous working in emergency services. You get threatened by people when you think you are helping them, you get little respect and often get abused and you have to just take it, you get a whole lot of criticism from your peers and you begin to take on a completely different outlook on the "human condition." It can be an absolutely horrifying experience at times. I have seen textbook training go completely out the window in some real world situations.
I have saved 1000's of lives with the bare hands I am typing this message right now and equally I have witnessed 1000's of people die right in from of me. It's a humbling experience to say the least. You sure your up for it yet?
Then you have this Mr. ARES/RACES guy who comes along and tries to "advertise" that they actually knows something. I can clearly see why some public service agencies get a bad taste in their mouth from some of these over zealous volunteer participants.
Despite my background, I just decided to steer away from any ARES/RACES activities and play Sky warn myself. NWS doesn't seem to have this sort of "boot camp" mentality going on. I take a "light duty" annual training course and do a lot of weather research on my own to further hone my "reporting and observational" skills.
Does it help anyone? ...Probobly. At least, they seem to be happy when I check in anyways. If not, then no one gets harmed in the process.
Quite frankly, RACES/ARES needs to lighten up and understand that it's not a suitable organization or training ground for the scope of training they are attempting to provide to it's members.
If Emergency Management is somehow a career objective in a persons life, (...only god know why!) then I would suggest that there are many accredited educational institutions that are more than capable of providing excellent formal training and instruction for this purpose.
73
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by N1EY on April 18, 2006
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:What's this got to do with emergency communications
:involving amateur radio?? This has become a necessary
:capability for law enforcement field operations. That
:doesn't mean that emergency voice communications are
:no longer useful or need to be replaced by data. Voice
:communications is still used as the primary means of
:dispatch, and all tactical and emergency
:communications.
Well, Chris you claim to live in Massachusetts. I happen to live here as well. the Local PD doesn't dispatch by voice. They do "silent keying" as the
police chief stated to me. We pay a bundle a month
for the data service. They use voice more for car to
car and supervisor when dealing with a situtation that
requires more manpower.
:Massachusetts. They slap on the official ARRL garb and
:come rolling in with the high and mighty "I'm a
:trained emergency communications pro" attitude and
:demand they take over. I can tell you this: the
:Massachusetts Emergency Management Agency does not
:make ARES protocols a requirement - including that
I don't know who the heck does ARES around here. I know a fellow that claims to do it from the section
leadership, but I haven't seen the people at the local
level other than Carl N1FY. He's also in the Bridgewater group, so what the heck is ARES really? It is an attempt to have the section manager coordinate all the Emcomm from RACES.
I would love to meet the Massachusetts RACES officer.
I don't know what the heck he does. His first step would to something about the Bridgewater MEMA setup
and the lack of radio operators to TAKE A CALL.
:Actually, that's a fine position for ARES to take;
:they can run the weather nets and train themselves in
Have you heard the blaize RACES nets in Massachusetts? I only know a few that actually enjoy them and eagerly await them. They make an outing of it and several of go to eat dinner afterwards. Wowwee. Too bad the ARRL format message format is a waste of time.
Most of the time in the activation it is going to be simple voice message passing if any from the hams. Maybe the APRS will take off for recorded messages, but I don't see it happening. I don't see WinLink happening here.
Bill N1EY
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If You Need Me...
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by N8QBY on April 18, 2006
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Basically what it comes down to is, to many chiefs and not enough indians. Nobody wants to do the leg work. I think that if I was going to help out say, after a known disaster, I would make my own plans to grab a few friends, supplies for the needy, and help with whatever comes up. Forget the Micro Managing, as there are other ways to help out without the bullsh**. Just my own opinion. I hear you though Bob, good article.
73
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If You Need Me...
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by WA2JJH on April 18, 2006
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A few things I was tought in EMT training.
1)Anyone can give P.F.A. (physic first aid)
a)Under :"THE GOOD SAMARTIN ACT" IN NYC....ONE HAS ZERO
LIABILITY"
TELL ALL GAWKERS TO LEAVE. Ask for 4 untrained/trained volenteers with cell phones. Pick 2 with cell phones.
Protocal for man down.
1) Point at two with cell phones and demand the 2 Two call 9-11 with address and instructions to site.
2)Be kind and gentle to man down.
a)look, and listen. check pupils. Use sternal rub if man is not consciouse.
3)Get them involved in pleasent converstion(Name and wHatEVER THEY WABT TO SAY.
4)BEFORE FIRE, POLICE, OR EMS ARRIVE.
5)ASK A.M.P.L.E QUESTIONS
1)ALLERGIES---PEANUTS IS THE #1 KILLER IN ANAPHALATIC SHOCK.
2)MEDICATIONS--(PERSCRIBED OR OTHER)
3)PAST-HAS THIS HAPPENED IN THE PAST?
4)LAST MEAL....TIME AND WHAT IT WAS.
5)EVENTS...WHAT HAPPENED TO PERSON THAT DAY.
ONLY USE CPR IF NEEDED. USE TWO MAN METHODE, IF POSSSIBLE.
ONE CAN GET MUCH TRAINING FOR FREE FROM YOUR RED CROSS. CPR, FIRST AID, AUTO DEFIB. BLS, AND A.L.S.
IN NYC, YOU ARE COVERERED OVER WITH THE "GOOD SAMARITINE ACT". IT IS NOT UNCOMMON TO BREAK A FEW RIBS DURING CPR. YOU ARE NOT LIABLE!!!!!!!
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KX8N on April 18, 2006
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"IN NYC, YOU ARE COVERERED OVER WITH THE "GOOD SAMARITINE ACT". IT IS NOT UNCOMMON TO BREAK A FEW RIBS DURING CPR. YOU ARE NOT LIABLE!!!!!!! "
As you pointed out several times, though, this is in NYC, where most of us are not. You have to be VERY clear about local laws, because in some places if you were to give CPR to somebody and they die, you are liable for their death. Unless you know the law and have the proper training, you're very much playing with fire.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by N3ORX on April 18, 2006
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Tennessee Emergency Management Agency (TEMA)has NOT signed an MOU with ARES. I don't know where you got that information, but it is not accurate. TEMA has a proposed MOU with TN Army MARS in process, that is all, it is not signed yet by either party. And TEMA is NOT making any requirements on HAMS to participate in ARES....TEMA can't do that because ARES is not under TEMA's control. Somewhere you got some misinformation.
And your costs for the EmComm courses are for the online courses, which are expensive....but you can do it for a lot less if you want. You can take the test at many testing sites in the state for $10. You can borrow the book, or buy the book, or attend classes taught by many of the clubs in TN.
Sorry to hear you resigned and hope you reconsider and help ARES in TN continue the growth and accomplishments it has shown over the past few years.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 18, 2006
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Cracked ribs huh?
Yeah Mike, I remember that sudden and eerie "crushing / cracking" feeling you get during CPR. Then you feel thier spongy sternum floating around on the heel of your palm while you are performing chest compressions.
It seems to happen alot especially on little old ladies with frail bones for some apparent reason. My guess is it's probobly a sign of low bone mass caused by osteoporosis. It didn't seem to matter how gentle you "massaged" thier chest, sometimes it happened anyways. Well I suppose the alternative is death so a few cracked ribs during the process isn't a bad alternative.
That's all well and good if they live and survive the ordeal, but be prepapred for the critics wrath if they don't survive. Mike, I just chalk it all up to EMS politics I suppose.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 18, 2006
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JJH,
Where did I insult those with medical training? I hope you aren't referring to my post to Charles, if so, you read it wrong. We spend a great deal of effort supporting those with medical training, no way would I insult them.
Charles,
The RACES list of training obviously is for those with more than just a passing interest in the subject.
We get the direction of our training agenda from our County Emergency Manager. He tells us what he wants us to prepare for. We are included in all the mock disasters, which we hold at least a couple times each year. His interest is that we can maintain communications from our Command Vehicle to the County's and to the hospitals. We also need to be able to include any shelter that may be set up.
The type of traffic passed is mostly to keep track of lists and people. We may also find ourselves working in a parking lot or driving a bus. If we are able and the request is safe, we will do it.
We actually get real callouts several times a year. We work with the West Michigan Search and Rescue team and also get called from time to time to help with fires that displace entire groups of people.
I never hear anyone around here crab about training. Each month we have a training session at the Red Cross concerning amateur radio emergency operations. Last month, utility line identification was covered. In a storm, that could save a person's life. Once or twice a year Red Cross CPR and First Aid is offered. Each week we have a net on our local repeater and about once a month we have a training topic.
We do many events each year (parades, air show, Tall Ships, etc.) to practice our net techniques and to make sure our equipment is working.
We have ongoing meetings with the County and make sure we are doing what they would like us to do.
The ARES and RACES training subjects are used, but not to the extent of your list. It is available, but not required.
What is required is some effort. We have little in the form of requirements. We figure if we hold enough sessions and they are interesting enough, we won't have a problem with attendance. So far it has worked.
Greta,
It seems you are basing your impression of training on one session which was not taught by a ham. My experience has been over a decade long and consists of dozens of training sessions, some like the APCO Basic Telecommunicator course I took, are up to 80 hours long. You may want to give it another chance.
K9NYO
"But no one should turn away someone with a mic in hand that wants to cooperate and help. There's plenty of good to be done by anyone willing."
I guess we differ here. I think the key word is cooperate. I have seen much damage done by those with just a 'willingness to help'. If a person wants to cooperate, they should attend training classes with others, or they are just operating.
It seems that the detractors of training have never been burnt by a ham that commits an serious error during a training session that caused their removal to prevent similar errors from happening during a true emergency. I have, and more than once.
A couple years ago we had a ham (unbathed and smelly) go pounding on the door of the County's EOC motorhome (we have our own) DEMANDING to get in because he was an ARES member. This was during a mock terrorist attack on a school bus and only personnel authorized to get in there were allowed. He was in the wrong place, couldn't figure out how to use his radio for directions and was late on top of that. He was one that never attended training classes, just shows up for the stuff that would get in the paper.
There are other incidents, but this should give you an idea of why I push classes and training so much.
This thread has been interesting. I really did not know there were so many reasons for not wanting training. Great help to try to make our training sessions more appealing.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W0IPL on April 18, 2006
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AB0WR . .
>I don't think you understand what the word "commitment" actually means,
do you?"
Here is what I "understand":
http://www.w0ipl.com/ECom/commit.htm
http://www.w0ipl.com/aresco/AR-Intro.pdf
>Hams do our best work when we are in the directly affected area. Do you
realize how many hams in Colorado would be affected by a 133,000 acre
fire? Maybe 20! Probably less.
Guess again Batman. I define "affected area" as anything within one hour's
drive. That puts the number of hams "in the area" at over 2,000. Unlike
Kansas where, when someone talks about 'the' tree, everyone knows where
it is, Colorado has a much larger ham population. I was the EC for
Boulder County (University of Colorado and all that rot) for Y2K and we
had over 1,400 - in Boulder County alone - at that time.
GRETA . .
>"This training you speak of, have any of you ever really attended it?"
I cannot control what problems you have in your area but, Yes I have
not only attended the training but conduct sessions regularly.
You speak of problems with the Red Cross, Gee, you mean that they are
as bad in your area as they are in Colorado? We support the Salvation
Army, who actually support victims and workers.
ALL . .
If all of you just wish to continue whining and gritching, be my guest.
Anyone that actually is willing to "be there when needed" can get of
their dead behinds and become part of the solution rather than continuing
to be part of the problem.
Pat Lambert, W0IPL
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RE: Another view
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by KD4NUE on April 18, 2006
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"The only requirement that ARES has is 1) a ham license and 2) a willingness to serve.
I'm not saying I agree with it, I don't. But that is the way it is. "
Actually, you aren't required to have an Amateur Radio Service license to be an EC for ARES, but you do have to be a ARRL member....
And this is one of the requirements that is actually well structured in comparison to others in play with the ARES organization.
ARECC EmComm levels 1 thgrough 4 cost you $180.00 and whatever lead time that it takes until all can be taken at the schedule of the League. ICS/NIMS training is free and can be taken online 24 hrs a day.
In the real world, those who demonstrate a willingness to help and aren't independently wealthy will probably opt for the training that is free and prepares them for communicationing within the structure of the served agencies, rather than that which is offerred "Amway" style and is structured around an imaginary ARRL/ARES - Centric universe.
Many local ARES organizations have specialized themselves right out of the loop, and are now on the outside looking in as local Amateur Radio Service groups now are the first point of contact by the local EOC and Red Cross.
It is hard to generate a lot of interest in the Amateur Radio Service with the attitude that it is "my way or the highway"; just as it is hard to accept a MOU that puts this attitude in writing. In both cases, the ARRL/ARES tradmark is becoming less visible as more CERTCOMM groups emerge and willing to spend the time to become ICS/NIMS aware utilizing the free online training.
With the recent merging of the MARS system into the WinLink2000 system, the next disaster will likely decide the need for an ARES-Based response mechanism.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 18, 2006
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We are included in all the mock disasters, which we hold at least a couple times each year. His interest is that we can maintain communications from our Command Vehicle to the County's and to the hospitals.
----
Hi Mark,
I have participated in many mock everything from time to time. We also practiced what we termed as "Scenarios" We would make up a problem and work through to the best solution for any given situation. We would document the entire process from start to finsih and then later we would have a meeting to evaluate and discuss ways we could improve what we were doing.
I think what your local chapter is doing for the community is all well and good. Unfortunately, not every ARES/RACES chapters are created equal.
I agree that volunteer training is a good thing if everything is placed into it's proper perspective of things.
...LESSONS LEARNED?
What you don't want happening is your local EMA or other agency exploiting the situation and expecting everyone to perform unpaid work and/or openly expect you to fund your own volunteer service program.
If there is a kickback of some sort for the services provided that's perfectly fine however, I have seen many instances where volunteers were simply expected to pay their own way for every little thing.
Training courses should be openly provided to volunteers and be completely paid for by the agency your serving. No volunteer should ever have to be forced to incur any out of pocket expense for the agencies benefit. The volunteer services provided should be considered payment enough.
For example, as an ACLS / BCLS instructor I once "volunteered" my services to teach and certify students for a local Search and Rescue team. The team consisted of various EMS, Police and Fire department personnel. The idea was to create an "on call" pool of off duty emergency services workers to "volunteer" their time for certain emergency events in the local community.
I noticed that during the training sessions they would often try and push equipment on everyone for the purpose of creating their very own "personal response inventory" such as cervical and spinal traction equipment, splints, ambubags, CPR masks and heck even our own radio communication equipment! Some training sessions just turned into one great big emergency services Tupperware party.
I quickly started to realize that we as volunteers were just funding this entire "volunteer process" completely out of our own pockets. I wouldn't have minded so much if they did just that alone but there's more!
While I volunteered my "unpaid" time to offer certifications to students for free, they actually had the audacity to charge the students an enrolment fee for the certification program I was offering and paid me nothing at all!
I agree that volunteers have their place in the community but I have seen too many instances where the fine line between "volunteer" and "unpaid work" was openly exploited for someone else's benefit.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 18, 2006
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ARECC EmComm levels 1 through 4 cost you $180.00
------
Nuff said...
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RE: Another view
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by K8MHZ on April 18, 2006
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"Actually, you aren't required to have an Amateur Radio Service license to be an EC for ARES, but you do have to be a ARRL member...."
Am I correct in assuming you don't have to have an amateur license to be an ARRL member? If that is correct, just how many ARRL members are not hams? Are they counted toward the percentage of hams in the ARRL?
Charles,
I really was surprised to see that you were against training for amateur operators in the capacity of emergency communications.
I thought about this for some time and wondered how I would react if you were in my community. Well, first I would seek your advice and input for future training, as anyone working in your field would have good insight as to what type of relationship may exist between paid EMS and volunteer communicator. You would be a good resource to inform our group of real life scenarios so we may have a better insight on what to expect. The list goes on, but I would be more interested in learning from you than asking you to participate in what you may think is useless training.
Your exposure to our system from an adviser's view may just give you some incentive to take some training even if it is for networking value.
Would you refuse an offer to come to a class that taught you how to use the radios, heater, AC, cell phone, generator, split power system, lights, etc. of our groups motorhome?
How about a class on NVIS?
Would you not be interested in a show and tell class of our installation at the Red Cross? We take people up on the roof and show the antenna system, lighting protection, grounding, remote transmitters, etc. When the installation is complete we will have multiple VHF radios, a UHF radio an HF rig with an NVIS antenna. There is a low band Red Cross radio there and we may even put in an 800 mhz radio, but that is not really part of the emergency plan. I think you would enjoy it.
Our training is not entirely of command structure, net procedure and legalities, it is also to train operators how to use the equipment that the community has donated. We try to get everyone to use each radio at least once. We have sessions that involve the radios at the hospitals. Would you not attend a session for that? You surely would be invited.
I would miss your presence and feedback in any of the above sessions.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KI6LO on April 18, 2006
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by KC8VWM on April 17, 2006 .... "Looking at some of the comments, I am left to wonder when did RACES/ARES suddenly become the U.S Navy /Military or an alternative to FEMA or something?"
Hey Charles,
If your comment quoted above is in reference to my comment about the motto on a Navy building, then you totally missed the point. I nor anyone else I read in this thread made a relationship between the US Navy and RACES/ARES. My point was to show that preparing for the future is alot easier and productive than learning OJT style during any possible disaster that may come. Kinda like having auto insurance. It is nice to never need it, but its too late to buy it WHEN you need it.
Not knowing your background, all I can say is if your have saved 1000's of lives then I applaud you and hope you keep the effort going for 1000's more. I'm sure many families are thankful that you were there. I can only claim to have helped out on a few lost hiker searches and such. And hopefully I will never be put into the situation to experience the prestiege you have in saving 1000's of lives.
I have had courses and refreshers on CPR, infant CPR, first aid, and Emergency Communications, both ARRL and state levels. I am a RACES member and as such I will do whatever I can, in my limited experience, to help out when called on.
Gene KI6LO
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 18, 2006
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Charles,
ARES is an adjunct to FEMA. I have taken FEMA courses. They used to have some really great wallpaper! There are many FEMA courses available and we sometimes will target one of them and incorporate it into our own training. Those interested can take just a few simple steps extra to get a FEMA certificate. Those that aren't at least got some in-class training on the subject as we feel it may apply to our area.
I also have some awareness level training on an ongoing basis. My fiance holds a BSN and is a state certified teacher.
Myself, I am happy knowing about radios and communications systems. I am glad that there are those that have medical training as I am a bit too squeamish and would rather be called upon to bring a radio back to life than a person. My comfort level is less affected by high voltage than lack of a pulse. But I still take the First Aid training when it is given.
I guess I am just one of those people that like to go to school. Perhaps it is because I have never taken a class that has not made me a better, more informed person. I have met some great people in class and have even made lasting friendships with some of them. So I am a bit bias, perhaps.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W9WHE-II on April 18, 2006
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WA2JJH writes:
a)"Under :"THE GOOD SAMARTIN ACT" IN NYC....ONE HAS ZERO LIABILITY"
Not so fast.
I suggest people get legal advice from a lawyer licensed in their own state. BE VERY WARY of legal opinions by internet lawyers. (JJH are you licensed to practice law?) So-called "ABSOLUTE" immunity (as JJH describes) is VERY rare. It is far more common for immunity to be "qualified" in some way. In other words, you are immune from liabillity so long as X, Y & Z criteria are met. Having said that, even under ABSOLUTE immunity, you can still be sued, still have to pay to defend yourself and pay for motions to dismiss the case.
And that is why so many with advanced training do not stop to render assistance!
W9WHE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W0IPL on April 18, 2006
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The following is a note from a friend that addresses some issues that
many seem not to have considered.
- - - - -
- - Have you ever wondered WHAT IF? - -
- - - - Author: Randy Long, W0AVV - - - -
Have you ever wondered what if ARES ceased to function as it has? Have
you ever wondered how thing would work if there was never training?
Have you ever wondered what you would do, if you tried to get through
in an emergency and no one could hear you? Have you ever wondered how
you would feel if one of your family members died of an injury, because
you hadn't tested your portable antenna and had no other means of
communication, and it didn't work? Have you ever wondered what it would
be like to be the EC of your group, know that there were people whose
skills needed help, offer that help, only to have them respond
"we'll be fine, we always get it done in the emergencies"? Have you
ever wondered how well your favorite football team would do if they
only practiced their skills as much as you practice your Emergency
Operating skills?
Life is full of choices and opportunities. We have the choices as to
what we place as important to us. Setting priorities is something we
do everyday, consciously or unconsciously. Where we live, what kind
of house we live in, who lives with us. How important those people are
to us can be determined in many cases in how we spend our time. Do we
just exist, or do we truly live? Planning ahead and making sure we take
appropriate precautions to protect ourselves and those we care about
is certainly one way we demonstrate this. An example of one choice we
might make is when we decide to buy a house, would you make a choice
to buy one built on solid rock, or would you prefer one built on sand
from a river bottom? Would you prefer to plan ahead and have food in
your shelves at home or have to scramble, every time you decided you
wanted to eat something? Would you rather know what you need to know
and be comfortable with it, or would you rather always be scrambling
to catch up?
Ham Radio as we all know is a hobby. It's a hobby which has many uses,
one of which is emergency communications. Even though it is but one
facet of life, it can be important to us, our families and our
communities. If you were on the receiving end of services provided by
a group such as ARES, would you think you were being served by the
brightest and the best if you encountered someone with less than
proficient skills? Would you trust your family's well being and care
to ensure their needs were being cared for with someone who had less
than practiced skills? I am guessing not. I am betting that you want
the very best trained, very best equipped, and very highest level of
proficiency person watching out for them and you!
Whether you are an old hand, who has "been there, done that" or the
newest ham in the hobby, I am sure if you are honest with yourself and
those around, you might admit that you can still learn from training.
Have you ever wondered what your ARES group would function like if you
were the best trained and equipped ham in the group (as you stand
right now)? Have you ever wondered what level the group would function
at? Have you ever wondered how much more you might be able to offer
if you had better training or skills? Have you ever wondered how much
better things might function if people in your group practiced more
together? Became more familiar with their equipment and equipment that
is available out there? Have you ever wondered how your not
participating in nets, exercises or training might influence someone
else's participation? Have you ever wondered who some people use as
an example for what they will do? Are you being the best example you
can be? Have you ever wondered what ham radio or ARES in general
would be like if there were no good examples?
We all have a responsibility to make good decisions. Making good
decisions affect us directly, our families, friends and communities.
We can choose to do everything half hearted and "get it done". On the
other hand, we can choose to be the best at what we do. Take some
pride in how we conduct ourselves as individuals and as a team. We can
choose to show ourselves, our families and our communities that we
are the best at what we do, even though the only compensation is the
feeling of being proud of our accomplishments in helping others.
Where do you stand? Is your training the best it can be? Is your
equipment always at its peak in terms of preparedness for an emergency?
Do you have better ways to teach something that might benefit others
in ARES? How involved and committed are you to being the best we can
be? No one but you can answer any of these questions, but certainly
as sure as you made the choices you have made, you know the answers.
What will you do from here? Think about it and let your conscience
dictate to you what kind of operator you will become.
- - - - -
Think about it.
Pat Lambert, W0IPL
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 18, 2006
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My point was to show that preparing for the future is alot easier and productive than learning OJT style during any possible disaster that may come.
-----
You would be a good resource to inform our group of real life scenarios so we may have a better insight on what to expect.
------
I appreciate everyone's insight and I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression about the emergency services side of things. It's not that I am against the idea of RACES /ARES training. In fact I am all for the idea!!
I indicated earlier that it's the scope, costs, recruitment methods and course outlines that I am having a problem with.
I openly recognize that a trained communicator is a valuable resource when the chips are down. I have no question about that fact nor do I question anyone's abilities to provide that valuable service for the emergency services community.
What I am concerned about is that newcomers who are "willing" to engage and volunteer their personal time and effort in some capacity are shunned away in many cases. Yet instead of utilizing them to direct traffic in a parking lot somewhere, handout blankets to victims, spend a little time talking to victims, they are simply shunned away because of these strange "course" requirements.
Contrary to popular belief, public service is not a boot camp. You are dealing with real people who have sensitive requirements and many individualized needs other than radio communication alone.
It's my opinion that any volunteer should be utilized for "something." Everyone is good at "something" and should have a place and be openly accepted because they want to help these people somehow.
"Volunteers" are not getting any more abundant these days and restricting their activities in these ways only serves to create resentment against the ARES/RACES organization and within the ham community.
Also using tactics such as "Without training, you are nothing but a blathering CB'er" is not a very good public relations effort or impression to leave with any potential "volunteers" either.
Now can you imagine if I started barking these sort of things at every civilian that I ever ran across that wanted to help me out? I wonder what kind of "lasting" impression I would leave with the general public about EMS services?
You see, RACES / ARES is doing exactly that very thing within their own training structure.
The current structure as I see it demands everyone to have some sort of military spec. training and certifications or they can hit the highway. Period.
That's just not realistic to expect in the real world of "volunteers" and only serves to create a greater lack of participation and a reduction in the pool of potential volunteer operators. No it isn't going to be perfect but if it helps any I have yet to meet any fellow emergency worker that has turned to me and said "Hey, look at that volunteer - they don't know what they are doing" NEVER! Not once! In fact, their efforts are ALWAYS appreciated.
Now I also understand that even an organization like ARES/RACES runs into some strange individuals from time to time that can be best described as "problems." You know the type I am talking about, the "John Candy" character that suddenly shows up and rushes over and tries to single handedly take over the entire scene because he has a CPR card in his wallet.
Firstly, here on my side of the fence in the emergency services world, As I mentioned I have never, ever... heard anyone openly criticize a "volunteer" who was there to genuinely offer their assistance.
What I can tell you is that I have heard many instances when many criticisms were passed around when volunteers conducted this help in a professional "wanna be" and competitive manner.
I never had any problems with a person who is just there trying to be "helpful." In fact, I never cared what specific training they had. I often found the ones who had any sort of specific "training" where the one's I often encountered problems with. (John Candy again comes to mind)
Basically, If they are willing, can understand English, follow simple directions, then I would instantly commission their assistance with no other questions asked.
I have to say that I found those particular sort of individuals to be extremely helpful in any situation I have ever encountered. In fact, I would even go to the extent of saying that I don't know what I would have done without their help!
On a final note, you really have to have it in your heart if you are there as a "volunteer" to help people. You have to be most sincere in your intentions and "want to help" people. Forget about what the training will do. There are some things they cant teach you in a classroom and this is one of them things. Just be yourself and I will like looking at that image a whole lot better than someone who thinks they know it all when they show up to help out.
If a sincere desire to help out people doesn't exist in your mind, then I am going to view your intentions and actions as that of a working professional. After all, I too am a working professional. I will have no choice but to just start thinking of you, your training and your actions as the "unpaid" competition messing around in my sandbox.
Again to those people who are most sincere about their volunteer activities, my hat is off to you.
You have gained my utmost respect as a fellow citizen, ham operator and individual serving our community. It's my sincere recommendation that they should pin a purple heart on your chest! You know who you individuals are out there. All I can say is that you should be damn proud of yourselves because I know I am.
Keep up this good fight with or without an organization behind your efforts. Volunteers make all the difference!
My Best,
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by W9WHE-II on April 18, 2006
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KC8VWM tries to impress us, by telling us he has:
"regional disaster experience including direct involvement with the development for a municipal Nuclear response..."
A COLOSAL WASTE OF TIME.
FIRST: After a nuclear detonation, the front end of your radio toys will be FRIED from the MASSIVE Electro-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) that will be generated. Your radios will likely be totally useless. So much for emcomm.
SECOND: After a nuclear detonation, your ALS skills will be useless. Treating people with airway, cardiovascular, multi-system trauma and 3rd degree surface burns will be TOTALLY POINTLESS, because they WILL DIE of radiation poisioning (with over 1,000 rad exposure) NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.
THIRD: There will be no supplies remaining after the first few hours DUE TO OVERWHELMING DEMAND.
FOURTH: If YOU are close enough to help (or can get there quick enough) YOU will have likely absorbed enough Gamma radiation to be dead in the very near future anyway. And even if you were in a shelter (unlikely in event of a terrorist detonation) YOU will be breathing HIGHLY radioactive (cobalt siezium) dust, which will kill YOU in days.
I just love you people that think that they can plan their way out of a nuclear detonation. You live in a dream world. People like you give the uninformed a false sense of security.
W9WHE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by N3ORX on April 18, 2006
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KC8VWM on April 18, 2006
ARECC EmComm levels 1 through 4 cost you $180.00
- - - - -
Not so. There are only three EmComm courses. You can get the books brand new for around $12 each, "used" for much less, and many ARES groups have them and will lend them to you for nothing. The tests for the course cost $10 each. So you can get the training for a grand total of $30.
Granted, if you do them online via the ARRL, it will cost you more, about $135 for all three, but that is your option, you don't have to take the courses that way.
In our ARES group, we expect that everyone will have done EmComm Level I within six months of affiliating with us. If someone in our group can't afford the $10 for the test, one of the others will gladly pay it, because we believe that the common basis that having done that course gives us, is very important to effectively operating in support of our served agency.
We encourage everyone to take additional courses as they can. We also encourage everyone in the group to bring different training topics and methodologies to the group...whether a hands on demonstration of a mode of operations, or a class on safe and proper portable generator usage, or maybe a work session on getting everyone to put Power Pole connectors on their radios....whatever the subject, we can always learn a little something from any training, and it may be the one thing that really is needed some day in some situation.
73,
Hank/N3ORX
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 18, 2006
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Cost for training....
The vast majority of our training is provided free.
That which bears a cost and is desired by those with limited means is usually donated by a local ham or group of same.
We only require Level 1 for staff members. The County requires some IS training which is done online for free for the rest of the members. We have almost two years to complete the test. Anyone that has trouble with it can get assistance for free.
My belief is that training for volunteers should be:
1) Free
2) Interesting
3) Possibly fun
4) Provide food if session is more than an hour or two and could be a good excuse for KC8WSG to make her famous Taco Salad for us.
Knowing full well that such perfection is seldom attained it is something we always strive for.
If you haven't had any of Debbie's Taco Salad it is what we consider to be 'State of the Art'. The chance of getting so much as a mere sampling is worth suffering through the even most mundane of training subjects. I am confident that anyone that has set a tooth to Debbie's fine rendition of this cuisine will agree and thusly won't miss a chance to savor it as it was meant to be savored, in the company of good friends, all sharing the volunteer spirit.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 18, 2006
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You live in a dream world. People like you give the uninformed a false sense of security.
W9WHE
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...Are you just out here trolling again? I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I hope you don't think I am responsible for all nuclear response plans ever created ?
Hey, it's your dream world. As you are already well aware, people like me are instructed by a higher authority to help develop these plans for the community. We are just a cog in the wheel of things. *Yawn* I have heard all the critics surrounding nuclear response plans long before you ever came along. Shall I just append your comments to this list?
Say W9WHE, since your background is very similar to my own, why don't you take it from here and entertain us with some of your own ACLS experiences. It's all ethical and good with me.
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N3ORX says:
Not so. There are only three EmComm courses. You can get the books brand new for around $12 each, "used" for much less, and many ARES groups have them and will lend them to you for nothing.
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Thanks Hank! Thats good information to know about.
I stand corrected.
My Best.
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Mark Says,
My belief is that training for volunteers should be:
1) Free
2) Interesting
3) Possibly fun
4) Provide food if session is more than an hour or two and could be a good excuse for KC8WSG to make her famous Taco Salad for us.
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...Now, that's what I'm talking about!
When can I sign up for your ARES group?
Heck, I am even willing to work on the cheap and give participants free first aid training and CPR classes in exchange for free food. In fact, I almost bet anyone involved in EMS will work out some sort of exchange like that with your group.
I hope you don't mind if I bring my date along with me. I guess I should tell you, she's a real dummy tho..
:)
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K4RAF on April 18, 2006
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"In 2005, during Katrina, the first reliable communications restored in New Orleans was a wi-fi repeater. The New Orleans free wi-fi net became the replacement communications backbone for large chunks of a city. It dwarfs every ham communications project ever undertaken."
The "repeater" was a 5GHz backhaul, point-to-point, from the donor site. Access on site was on 2.4GHz wi-fi. The irony of this is both are ham bands but only the unlicensed offered the efforts!
You don't actually expect these guys to believe that the DoD, CUWIN, Part15.org & other wireless volunteers got some primary links online before hams were allowed to set up?
"That's the reality of telecommunications in the 21st century. It's digital. It uses the internet. It uses unlicensed spectrum. A lot of people know how to do it."
!LIES! The rub is UNLICENSED. How could they ever learn how to do it without a license? Next thing you know, you will suggest these people are younger than most hams & possibly less "hung up" over credit for or control over a network? Hams can't even agree if a password can be protected with encryption, yet you are liable for content? Hehehe, OK, I give up!
"The kind of help you are willing to provide just isn't that necessary any more, and it becomes less so every day."
There have been several accounts, including one by an exec at Intel that documents the non-ham efforts. However, unlike ham radio, they don't blow thier own horns:
Go to dailywireless.org & search the site for "Katrina" or even "ham radio". Google "Katrina wireless" on the web. Both efforts are chronicled but any objective reader can see the difference of scale alone. Ham radio has not changed with the times yet communications clearly has. It no longer needs its' hands held or a net control. We can't offer VoIP because we, as radio amateurs, don't have wireless VoIP...
Then there is the 3.3-3.5GHz system legacy but hams don't know it is silently shared already. I won't bore anyone with details...
k4raf@yahoo.com
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If You Need Me...Pry my Cold Dead Hand...
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by KG4RRN on April 18, 2006
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Don't worry Bob, they won't get me, until they
"pry my cold dead hand away from my microphone".
I don't want to play {World Policeman} anymore !!!
73,
Just another Bob
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If You Need Me...
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by NA4IT on April 18, 2006
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Here's a good question for someone in the know to answer...
Where does the money for EMCOMM test fees go, and what is it used for?
NA4IT
(FYI I now have IS-100, IS-195, IS-700, and IS-800 under my belt.)
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KB4YKJ on April 19, 2006
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Here is a good one for humor. Prior to becoming disabled (thanks to agent orange) I spent 14 years in the criminal justice career field. I held every position from dispatcher in a 911 center to Assistant Chief of Police of a 160 man department. I was a director of a crime prevention unit, one of my duties was to hold seminar classes with ham operators on how they could assist us the best.
I attended a local club meeting and advised them of my former position, brought certificates to verify everything I said and was informed I could only assist them AFTER they trained me in their classes. And to make this even funnier, the instructor/coordinator who was responsible for these classes was a 66 year old woman who had no law enforcement emergency experience in the real world.
As a previous poster wrote, I don't want to be the worlds policeman anymore. If a BS degree in criminal justice and 14 years experience isn't enough to suit them, I'll sit back and watch them bumble over themselves.
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by WA2JJH on April 19, 2006
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W9WHE-II is correct visa-vi......LD100/365 0r LD100-OMEGA SITUATIONS. IT IS SAVE YOUR OWN ASS FIRST...IF YOU HAVE THE TIME!
Less dramatic EMT protocol is WHO COMES FIRST.
At a site.
1)YOUR SAFETY FIRST
2)Your partners second
3)Area must be free of gun fire or any envoirmental problems.
4)Viable people.
YES..I DO STAND CORRECTED ON THE "GOOD SAMARITAN ACT"
IN N.Y.C. it is the most liberal.
Yes, you can sued or harrased. ONE CPR I DID...the woman died 3 days later. She O.D.ed on a coctail of narcotics she self perscribed.
She probably had very shallow tidal volume breathing.
It was still a good save. I was glad when the fire dept. arrived while I still had her heart beating.
I just got a bunch of death threats for a few weeks. The Cops explained to the family, tHat after one is deprived of oxygen for over a minute or more in warm weather....she was doomed!
I have saved a number of lives in the past. THESE DAYS I JUST HELP MY FAMILY ONLY!
I was young and idealistic back then. I find life enough of a job now!
IMHO. TRAINED HAMS, PROPER EQUIPMENT THAT IS MAINTAINED, AND A GOOD SPIRIT IS BETTER THAN NOTHING!
AS W9WHE-2 POINTS OUT.....SAVE YOUR OWN BUTT IF YOU CAN WITH CHEMS,BIO'S, and NUKE PROBLEMS-HOLOCAUSTS!
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by K8MHZ on April 19, 2006
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Charles,
You know as well as I do that Annie is welcome anywhere you are!
How is she doing? Can she feel her legs yet?
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by KC8VWM on April 19, 2006
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How is she doing? Can she feel her legs yet?
----------
I shook her shoulders a few times and yelled "Are you OK!, Are you OK!" in both ears. She didn't respond to my question right away so I put my ear to her mouth and she was mumbling something about not being able to feel her legs. I instructed a student to whip her over in a face down position and he just started spanking her wildly and kept asking her, "How does that feel, How does that feel?"
I really don't know final outcome at this time but I will keep you posted on her condition.
:p
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by WA2JJH on April 19, 2006
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Charles....Something you want to talk to me in private about, let me know. I do have relationships with 2 research hospitals.
I think I gave you my Telco number. I do all research
now.
Like many, after a while...like me. I simply cannot
bear to give CPR or defib anymore.
I just design Bio-medical equipment now.
However I always have an open ear for someone I have got to know and respect.
If you want to call me, I can pass it on to the research DR's and MD's I know and have worked with.
If there is something really new, it shows up in NASA TECH BREIFS (the bio-medical suppliment).
Remember this one. You always hear it in EMT training.
1)Not all out comes are what we would like them to be.
2)Your not here to save the world
3)Read one and two again.
Charles,feel free to call.
MIKE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by WA2JJH on April 19, 2006
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W9WHE, Are you a health code lawyer in NYC? We get a purple book of 800 codes, statutes, protocol, and what can be done BACK to those that sue for B--l SH-T!
In the past JUDGES have really punished those that tried to see what they could get away with in NYC.
Anyone qualified to help can counter sue the morons that made me and many others pass by a first respond
situation.
Someone can always just say R.M.A.
I do understand you are not singling me out. I also did say in N.Y.C. (The Good Samaritan Act)
I never implied all the regs applied to all states.
FWIW...The people I did help were very gratefull, as I would be if I was down.
Part of the protocol is to yell....are there any DR's
P.A.'s or Nurse/practictions in the scene. By law anybody must defer to a DR or NYC employed paramedic or EMT.
They can elect to tell me to leave or help in a much smaller capacity. Relay vitals over a cell phone, or keep gawkers out of the way.
Be advised I do not go "looking for it". Some people
have no training, however they think they do. They can delay or diminish the so called "GOLDEN HOUR".
I like you have soured much. With things like "Advanced Directives" and other legal crap....I seldom get involved anymore.
The technology is making things better too. All eating establishments in NYC have to have some type of BVM. The automatic CPU controlled ECG/DIFIB units can be purchased at some drug stores.....IN NYC.....I DO NOT KNOW THE LAWS OF ANY OTHER AREA.
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RE: equipment plus hams
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by W5HTW on April 19, 2006
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Once upon a time we hams would have radios and get on the air and have fun. Then, if there was some sort of emergency, we pitched in and helped. Afterward, we went back to playing radio. No one ran to the newspapers or tv stations and shouted "Look what WE did!" We simply took it in stride.
What happened was, to recruit more heads into ham radio, the ARRL (and probably others) decided to promote it with the "you can save the world" philosophy. That led to a bunch of REACT types and others who joined so they could strap on a couple of HTs or more, some red lights (and sirens if they could get away with it) uniforms, vests, badges, Mace, handcuffs, and get into their cars with eighteen antennas, and go play cop. The ham ticket became a shortcut around the police academy, at least in their minds. So we got a whole bunch of people who eventually mellowed out from that vision, but remained in ham radio solely to participate in emergencies. Otherwise the radio stays in the bureau drawer.
Now we have hams who want so desperately to do EMCOM, they dash to any scene. That's sad. As DEC of our county, I continually remind our ARES members that we do not activate ourselves. We have to be called upon by the county emergency manager, county manager, or other official. We don't go out there and get in the way. If we aren't needed, we stay home and build, ragchew, work DX.
When amateur radio was a serious contender for emergency communications, think of the reality of that time. Police had a single VHF (often 40-50 mhz) radio in the car. Counties had a few VHF stations. Local government radio communications was quite limited. Few repeaters. We had better communications capabilities. We could be on the scene quickly, before the county could muster enough people to operate the few radios they had. We had HF, which gave us better range, especially with both 75 and 10 meter communications. We could beat the county's VHF systems easily.
Hey, "them days is gone, Bubba." The county has hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps for larger cuonties, millions of dollars, of sophisticated radio equipment. They have many repeaters, multiple VHF and UHF radios in their vehicles, mobile lap top computers, GPS systems, APRS (the "a" is NOT "amateur") well-trained dispatchers, interfacing communications with adjoining counties and with the state. They have repeaters with backup generators, portable repeaters, emergency response communications trailers and vans. They have people on the scene in minutes, and even in hugely rural counties such as my own, can beat the hams to the scene easily, unless I happen to be driving by. They can call upon mutual aid resources that can arrive quickly.
We do not need to duplicate those systems. Our capability is in rapid response, certainly, and quick voice operation. But by the time we get into our digital super duper encrypted message handling, they are on the scene and doing it faster and more professionally. They are using voice radio with terse and concise communications, not the ramblings of a ham.
Maybe we have been superceded by money and technology. I still feel, and I am from the days of Civil Defense(!) that we may have a role to play, but we do not have the big bucks to compete with the governments.
Now, the trend is moving forward faster. After Katrina, the buzz word is interoperability. The plan is in future disasters for DOD and FEMA to drop comm vans into the scene, with DC-daylight frequencies, self-powered, portable antennas, and professional operators, with voice, CW, data, fax, cell phones, everything imaginable. We hams may still be the first on the scene, but we will likely, within hours, be told to get out of the way.
State governments as well are facing the need for sophisticated disaster communications that does not in any way involve ham radio. National Guard units are equipped with the best available. State EOCS are well stocked on communications equipment.
The "wannabe cops" will have to disappear. Hams will be allowed to put the HT and red lights away for keeps, and either get on 20 meters and work some DX, or go build a model railroad.
I hope we remain an accepted mode of backup, but the redundancy being built into area government communications may preclude that.
Still, it's nice to know we are available. Even if we are never needed.
Ed
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If You Need Me...
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by N8QBY on April 19, 2006
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Ok people, exhale. Time to quit trying to impress the previous post. This is not a "mine is bigger than yours", post. I think for the most part, these posts are getting away from the original authors intent. Just my own opinion.
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If You Need Me...
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by N6KZB on April 19, 2006
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The face of the amateur and emergency response has changed over the years.
Many changes and legal requirements have added a whole new flavor to the emergency responder, be it a volunteer or a professional.
With the advent of the Incident Command System, and the role that government plays, they days of just “showing up” are gone.
This is actually a good thing, as in today’s disaster or localized emergency, a coordinated response and the proper application of the amateur radio operator are a must.
From the simplest role of assisting with VHF/UHF FM, in a failed hospital phone system, to a long term role of message handling, say with Winlink and Red Cross support, the amateur will find a role.
Training requirements are needed, and the emergency mangers must have the local RACES/ARES response blend in and be part of the solution.
In some areas the amateur does more than just talk on the radio, they may have computer or telephone skills, and can use them to assist. In some cases the amateur may only wish to play “communicator”, and will have wait for that role to be needed, in a particular event.
Times change and so does technology. Most agencies are well equipped to handle the day-to-day or localized emergencies, with their communications infrastructure. It is generally the area wide disaster, or a specific event that can cause an overload or outage, and then our service can play a role.
The continuity of government and the public safety response role is different than 30 years ago. RACES and ARES, or specific support groups, must now play in this new arena and be part of the mutual aid system.
We learn from the past, and can apply those facets to our new role, as volunteer emergency responders.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 19, 2006
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Charles,
Fun in CPR class-
We are supposed to take CPR every two years. I skip a few now and then but when I do show up for class there is always one way to 'bring the house down'.
When we get to the step where we say 'Annie, Annie can you hear me?' and pretend to listen close to her mouth for a reply, I always look as serious as I can to the instructor and say 'She says she can't feel her legs'.
Someone else told me about this 'joke', I see that it may be getting around your way as well.
I never thought about spanking her. It is the fact that I gain such useful information from these forums that keeps me coming back to eHam.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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If You Need Me...
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by K0RGR on April 19, 2006
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To some extent, I agree with the original writer. However, I don't think it's as dire as all that. Hurricane Katrina showed that if the need is great enough, hams are in great demand. And in those areas of the country where 'Biblical scale' events happen, ham radio will be in demand.
There has been a call to make ARES a fully independent disaster response agency in its own right, rather than working through outside agencies, such as Red Cross.
The fact is, Red Cross is more interested in getting hams for their manpower than for their communications skills. RC assumes that some form of commercial communications will be restored in 24 hours after a disaster, so in most places, they discount the need for ham radio. But, if you can train hams to do other Red Cross functions, that's great. I'm trained to drive their trucks and sling hash, as well as set up comm for their shelters and HQ's.
The problem here is that trained hams that might be needed for their comm skills can also get shunted into other things that don't make use of their skills. If the volunteers all 'belonged' to ARES, this would be less likely to happen.
I see no problem, though, with people learning to be useful in multiple roles. We're looking at CERT training now, and if you want to be in communications, you better know the ICS. Around here, where the hams are also the storm spotters, we're likely to be the first people on the scene of a tornado disaster - and multiple skills might be needed. We're training with RC in disaster assessment - a traditional ham radio role, too (at least it was that way in the Bay Area years ago).
The key, I think, is for individuals to decide how much they want to get involved, and how much time they have to prepare. I don't have time to be a disasater professional - I already have a career. But I can train to be an effective and flexible volunteer in the event of 'the big one'.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by WA4MJF on April 19, 2006
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Ed, the Guard has the best equipment
UNTIL they rotate through the "sandbox"
and leave it in theater. Many guvs want
some supplementals for their Guard, so
that they're able to resume their
state mission. Several articles
about this situation of late in the
Army TImes.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: If You Need Me...DONT YELL! do not bother me %
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by WA2JJH on April 19, 2006
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KX8N AND WHE, RATHER THAN CAUSTICLY LAMBAST ME, WHY DONT ANY OF YALL CHECK FOR YOUR OWN MUNICPALITY, PERESH,STATE, OR THE N.I.H.
I STATED RIGHT UP FRONT IT WAS MY EXPERIENCE AT THE TIME IN NYC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY DO YOU NOT USE YOUR PROTOCOL BOOK AND ENLIGHTEN ME AND ALL THE OTHER READERS HOW IT IS WHERE YOU DID IT.
SOME OF IT IS IDENTICAL(OHHH...NOW YOU WANT A PERC ENTAGE) SOME OF IT IS JUST COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!!!!
SOME OF IT IS EMOTIONAL COMMON SENSE!!!!!!
I AM SURE PROTOCOL AND PROCEEDURS ARE UPDATED VERY OFTEN!
SURE IT IS EASY TO YELL AT ME!!!!!!! WHY DO YOU NOT SHARE WHAT IT IS LIKE IN YOUR CITY NOW OR 5 YEARS AGO!!!!!!
For example is difibulation a endorsement or a requirement in your state. IN NYC ALL VOL. NON MOS
EMTS AND FIRST RESPONDERS ARE RECERTIFIED EVERY 2 YEARS. SORRY, I DO NOT HAVE THE EXACT YEAR THAT AUTOMATED/AUTO ASSIST DEFIB HIT THE BOOK AT MY FINGER TIPS JUST FOR YOU TWO!!!!!!!!
I AM GLAD THAT I DID NOT RECERTIFY!!!!! YOU BALL
BUS---RS ARE NOT THE N.I.H.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I JUST DESIGN DEVICES NOW. I WANT SOME PATENTS.
DO YOU WANT MY LATEST PROVISIONAL PATENT NUMBER ON MY
LATEST IDEA.....GEEESSSHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY NOT DO SOME TYPE OF MEDLINE/WEB-MD SEARCH AND TELL US SPECIFICS FOR YOUR NECK OF THE WOODS.
sorry for all caps to the rest. I JUST GOT TIRED OF GETTING CAPITAL PUNISHMENT FOR BULL---. I SAID RIGHT UP FRONT NYC'S protocol. You guys just interjected with caustic lambastings and not one shred of info about your area.
I am not M.O.S. or your professor
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by WV2B on April 19, 2006
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From a local RACES Newsletter:
"Training is very important and cannot be overlooked. During the Katrina disaster, many hams went down to New Orleans area without having any training. There were cases where untrained hams caused ham radio to get "egg on its face". This would not have happened if all of the participating hams had even the most minimal amount of training".
I do not have any knowledge of the situations spoken of, but thought I would put this out there.
73, Duane
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If You Need Me...
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by KE7AKS on April 19, 2006
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I read these articles and reflect on my situation.
I have a General Class License, mobil and base radios,
no official ARES etc training, but I have had CPR and First Aid training. I am here if I can help, but I think a good parallel is a guy that has a power boat might be very helpful in a flood situation, but he is not officially trained in flood rescue, and is only an experienced boat operator for fishing.
I guess it is hard for me to realize that my equipment, that can operate without repeaters, and in at least a 30 mile radius exen without power from the utilities, could offer NO HELP in an emrgency. I gues if we have a serious flood the best I can do is go FISHING.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by GRETA on April 19, 2006
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K8MHZ
YOUR SICK and need help
Fun in CPR class-
We are supposed to take CPR every two years. I skip a few now and then but when I do show up for class there is always one way to 'bring the house down'.
When we get to the step where we say 'Annie, Annie can you hear me?' and pretend to listen close to her mouth for a reply, I always look as serious as I can to the instructor and say 'She says she can't feel her legs'.
Someone else told me about this 'joke', I see that it may be getting around your way as well.
I never thought about spanking her. It is the fact that I gain such useful information from these forums that keeps me coming back to eHam.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
JOKE!!! BRINGING THE HOUSE DOWN!!! CLEARLY YOU ARE A CLOWN. NO AND'S OR IF'S ABOUT IT.
Do all you guys vent this way on the web? Some seem determined to just see how much harassment and insults they can deliver and get into. I am taken by all this . I would expect it on the CB bands but not here as so called intelligent hams. Despicable to use the word fully. No wonder they want the CW code back in the license requirement. And to think men say women cackle. What a example you all are showing the world. If you can't get along here how do you expect to do so under a emergency?? Despicable, just simply despicable.
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If You Need Me...
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by KV9U on April 19, 2006
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Bob,
It is still good enough that you are there but it is a bit different from 30 - 40 years ago. Like you, I go back around 40+ years with supporting ham radio ecom. In my first disaster in 1965 our "high tech" was phone patching to the mayor on HF from a mobile and AM 2 meter simplex.
As you know, we now have much more capability with emergency powered repeaters, much more portable and higher power equipment for many bands.
It may depend upon where you live as to what your local ham group(s) would desire for training. Here in Wisconsin, we have a combined ARES/RACES program. There is no specific requirement for hams to have training in our local group, but understanding the NIMS concept and having a basic understanding of ARES/NTS can be helpful. Depending upon how many hams can be convinced to participate in ARES/RACES, local groups may be able to exclude those who do not meet their requirements but that can backfire. In our area we simply do not have enough hams to be that exclusionary!
As far as digital communications go, the packet system is no longer very connected and it appears that things will degrade further. Some are attempting to bridge the gap as best they can with the Winlink 2000 system, but that is a very small number since there are not that many digital hams. The metro areas like yours do have some packet interest, but not much in the rural ones. I have not had any luck over the last year in promoting HF digital in the state so that is going nowhere.
The basic communication is still tactical voice. That medium MUST be in place for real time operation. The ARECC courses stress that you don't use digital communications for tactical purposes. E-mail has a limited place, and only if you have the resources and interest from enough people to move from amateur radio paths to internet connections.
Our local group answers to the County Emergency Management Director and the IC system and are deployed to meet their needs. Also, we have a major state wide initiative to support Hospital VHF/UHF backup communications and most all hospitals have, or will have, a well placed antenna, feedline, and power supply with the hams supplying the rig.
As long as the protective services personnel have their high tech radio links, computers, internet, etc., then they can take care of emergency situations. It is when their systems fail that hams may be useful for a short time.
Also, in our very rural area, the current technology is minimal in some cases with ambulance dispatching and interoperability and we play a role to provide a link from an incident site triage area to the hospitals.
When we have small area disasters (e.g., tornadoes), you mostly need local voice communications and a way to get to county EOC and state EOC, etc. Most of that can be done by the existing communications. If it can not, we hams can help. For large area disasters (rare, but could happen with severe ice storms), where you lose power over many miles, having tactical voice is very important and having digital communications could be useful if you have them.
Weather spotting is somewhat separate and at least in our area of SW Wisconsin is something we do directly with NWS. For example, I have been enroute mobile and been in the right place and time and supplied real time wx reports that then are used a minute or two later on the emergency broadcast system.
Also, last summer we managed to be in an area that NWS wanted some eyes on the ground and were able to get one ham at the tornado site within few minutes where a house was moved (with the occupant still inside). And a few minutes later we had a ham chasing another cell in the storm track about 20 miles away and arrived within a very few seconds after the tornado took out a small community. He was able to be in real time contact with the NWS to advise them of the immediate situation. They have been very satisfied with our communications assistance and participation in storm spotting.
Just because someone doesn't have specific training, doesn't mean they won't be able to participate in disasters. In fact, even if they have training, they might not be able to participate either. This depends upon your local agency or supported organization.
Having credentials in place ahead of time is necessary since you will not be able to get into certain areas without your County Emergency Management ID if you expect to participate in EM activities. If we need backup (ARESMAT) personnel, from out of the area, they can be issued ID's as needed, but that is not as convenient as having this all done in advance.
You are correct that some EC's are concerned that they are losing ARES/RACES members and that is because they ARE losing members in some cases. The trade off is whether you can tolerate the loss of members versus the increased "professionalism" that some leaders are pushing pretty hard. We can not get away with that in our rural area, but it may be possible in the more metro areas where you have a higher concentration of hams.
There is value in having older hams, who have practical knowledge and ability to pass message traffic, which is something very few of the newer hams are experienced with since they don't operate HF and there are few opportunities for traffic handling on VHF.
Even though some of the Winlink 2000 folks belittle the NTS system, (with their "when is the last time anyone sent a telegram" presentation), we still have need to send messages and have them documented. NTS formatted messages insure that is done.
As you say, "Don't forget about me. There are a lot more of us than there are of you" ... is very true. Only a small percentage of hams actually participate in ARES/RACES and other emergency communications support. And only ARRL members can hold Section appointed leadership positions. So when things get difficult, those who do have the equipment and skills can be helpful.
73,
Rick, KV9U
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 19, 2006
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I think a good parallel is a guy that has a power boat might be very helpful in a flood situation, but he is not officially trained in flood rescue.
-------
Good point..
What's interesting is the historical fact that this is usually the person who is there helping victims long before any "agency" ever shows up.
73
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 20, 2006
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Greta,
Perhaps by your definition of the term despicable, on eHam, I am such.
Please bear in mind that eHam is not ham radio. I can't have my license revoked for what I say on eHam. I know what the owner's of the site allow and I never cross that line.
Now, on the air it is a completely different story. I never make jokes on the air or behave in any manner that may cause sudden outbursts of laughter. I am totally serious in every QSO and limit the subjects of my conversations to a signal report, the weather and graphic details of my medical problems.
I don't know if you have a license or not, but if you do we may get a chance to chat. I would love a QSL card from you. I promise not to try to make you laugh.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W9WHE-II on April 20, 2006
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WA2JJH writes:
"W9WHE, Are you a health lawyer in NYC"
Naaahhh...I'm just a healthcare lawyer that defends medical professionals when they get sued by patients. What could I possibly know, compaired to you, an internet lawyer?
+++++++++++++++++++
"Anyone qualified to help can counter sue the morons that made me and many others pass by a first respond
situation"
Nonesense.
Neither JJH nor any other healthcare professional has standing to sue any other good samaritan, because neither JJH nor any other would-be good samaritan could demonstrate a legally recognizable injury.
+++++++++++++++++++
JJH illustrates why you should get your legal advice from a REAL LAWYER, licensed in YOUR state, and not an internet BBS.
W9WHE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by WA2JJH on April 20, 2006
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OK..WHE point well taken. I just do not like it when people get slammed with "CAPital punishment" or get causticly lambasted over something that was not such a horrible thing.
I know your intentions were honerable.
My last comment here. BY CHOICE, NOT YOUR "WORD GRENADES"
73 DE MIKE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by KC8VWM on April 20, 2006
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As a BBS internet lawyer myself I am happy to report that there are very few instances where a Judge has ever ruled against an individual who has provided emergency assistance to someone in need.
On the other hand if you are negligent and leave an individual bleeding to death on the street and do nothing about it, then you might have the book thrown at you.
So there you have it. It should all be cut and dry now.
...Do something and get sued.
...Do nothing and get sued.
It's your call.
73
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PacketHop Joins Homeland Security 1st Responders
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by K4RAF on April 20, 2006
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"peer-to-peer mobile mesh communications software with server-less multimedia applications purpose-built to operate in an infrastructure-optional environment."
http://www.wirelessiq.com/content/newsfeed/6980.html
Hmmm, serverless, infrastructure-optional, kind of like the BreadCrumb Network...
Yea, ham radio, right...
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If You Need Me...
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by KL3NP on April 20, 2006
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I just read this whole thread. Hijacked, as well. It all makes for an interesting read, but put this in your pipe and smoke it.
Several hours ago, a 7.7 magnitude earthquake struck the far Siberian east which you undoubtably will all read about tomorrow. Since Nome, Alaska (where I live) has rural similarities to Siberia, I can tell you this:
Know there will be no APOC25, Wi-Fi, FEMA, TSA, Laptop digital, Cellular, Iridium, or anything of the like doing emergency comms during the aftermath.
Whatever emergency comms that is taking place you can be assured it is being done by Ham Radio operators.
So whether its 1964 or 2006, here we are.
Nate KL3NP
Nome, Alaska
Certified in nothing
Willing to do anything
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K8MHZ on April 21, 2006
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"Certified in nothing
Willing to do anything"
Anything except getting certified that is ;)
No news of the quake in our little town. Couldn't feel it, either.
I hope there were no casualties.
73,
Mark K8MHZ
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If You Need Me...
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by K9UUT on April 21, 2006
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Bob and others:
Have you noticed the lack of consensus in this discussion alone?
Have you noticed the lack of relationship building between amateur radio folks and the agencies we are supposed to be serving? It used to be normal for the Emergency Managment head to come to our meetings. Relationships were built, bonds of trust attained over time and a cooperative air was built.
Now, we only hear from them when they have jobs no one (who gets paid to do it) would want to waste their time with. We are no longer a trusted group. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because we get a cold shoulder from them now? Could it be because we do not hear squat from them year after year?
Have you noticed the difference in the demographics of the hams themselves in the past 20 to 30 years? Those who have been around understand this. The dumbing down of requirements to become a ham has had a big role in the scheme of things. Think about it.
Have you noticed how Katrina showed how vunerable we are? In my opinion we are all in trouble. When we need to do things "by the book" we loose the ability to think on our feet. The requirements they "say" we need to have could have long ago been established merely by everyday interaction and relationship building. Now we have to do things by the book. BULL. That does NOT work.
Have you noticed how much the legal establishment gets involved these days? Geez boys and girls, this is a hobby and oh, we can provide common sense communication skills where needed. But because millions have been spent those "needed" skills are far from needed now. And we end up just arguing about the legal aspects of it all. What a crock.
Have you noticed how little the FCC cares about our ability to communicate? Broadband over Power Lines (BPL) shows us where the real priorities are. HF is obviously considered a wasteland to them now. Radio is no longer a resource to foster. So, the next time your area needs long distance communications for the Red Cross or even the military (can you say MARS?)you can kiss that good bye in BPL areas.
I have been a ham for 47 years and it amazes me how much things get more screwed up the more we try to detail every little thing in some plan somewhere. Heck our City/County Emergency Manager won't even give anybody a copy of it. The arguement is it changes so quickly. Now is that a formula for disaster or what? We should take their ICS and other classes and blindly follow their lead without a shread of human relationship building nor trust? What is wrong with this picture? I tell you, a ton of people are not participating just for this reason alone.
Amateur radio is nothing like it was when I was "learning" my craft. My hobby turned into a wonderful career in Broadcast Engineering for me. However, even though I am willing to share my experience, I am being told the world has changed. I'm terribly sorry but humans have not changed one dang bit. But we now are being shunned into our corner and told, essentially, to follow the professionals. To prove we can be trusted if we only pass this course or that one.
I for one, will not follow blindly. And to those of you who now will argue the points I have made, god bless you. I have lived these experiences and am confident that we need people with experience in charge and leadership, not lawyers nor politicians. People who have the experience who can think on their feet and not hide behind some book saying what you should do given a certain emergency circumstance. These books should be used as a guideline but not the rule book. Look who is articulating these changes? The government is. Sure, I see the benefits of people who know what they are doing. But you don't learn this stuff from a book or taking a course. There are basics, for sure. But when we loose the relationships that were there decades ago we have lost something big. I only pray we decide to work together and build a working consensus out of relationship building instead of a group of book worms who would not be able to think of the next step out of a puddle of rain.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. It was not intended to upstage any previous posting (as someone had suggested) but to passionately express my feelings on a subject I feel really concerned about.
73, de K9UUT (Rees)
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by N4ZKF on April 23, 2006
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Yea, all FEMA's training did real good in Katrina.
The jumped right in and made everything all better.
NOT
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W9WHE-II on April 24, 2006
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"We the willing, led by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible, with so little, for so long, that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing".
NOT a credo to live by.
I'm no emcomm bunker boy, but:
I know ARRL wants hams with no training, but I wonder if you anti-training people would go to a Doctor with no training? How about a mechanic with no training? Should we have a millitary, police, fire or EMS with no training?
Funny how when things go wrong, REALLY WRONG, the same people that reject training, want people with lots and lots and lots of training to step in and make it all better.
Hummmmmmmm.
W9WHE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W9WHE-II on April 24, 2006
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N4ZKF writes:
"Yea, all FEMA's training did real good in Katrina.
The jumped right in and made everything all better".
Funny how some people think that the government is their mommey and expect the government (mommie)to make everything "all better".
W9WHE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K1OU on April 25, 2006
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Per W9WHE,
"Funny how some people think that the government is their mommey and expect the government (mommie)to make everything "all better"."
Jonathan, thanks to the FCC relaxing the licensing requirement, you upgraded your license:
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applTransLog.jsp?applID=503881
Once again, you look like an ass. Big deal if you took the GENERAL theory thirty years ago. So did I, as well as thousands of others. Bottom line, you were lazy, waited for the handout, now have the nerve to bitch about those who rely on government. If I didn't know any better, I would think that you live in a trailer and smoke crack all day while complaining that the welfare check isn't big enough.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K2GW on April 25, 2006
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>>Google "Katrina wireless" on the web.
I did. The first thing I found was a wireless guy who stated that ham radio was there first while the wireless guys argued about equipment and protocols.
Oh. The wireless guys have now decided that they need formal training in disaster response before they show up the next time ;-)
See below.
73
Gary, K2GW
----
http://mrscake.livejournal.com/148079.html
Katrina wireless volunteers
Right now, I'm at the summit at a session on community wireless and Katrina recovery. The hurricane trashed some of the power and telecommunications infrastructure, so some geek volunteers travelled down south to set up an alternative. A number of companies, organizations, and individuals donated equipment, some of which worked.
It was pretty intense; showers weren't always available, and the Meals Ready to Eat (MREs) didn't do great things for people's digestive systems. There were also some very large mosquitos.
Not too surprisingly, many of the tech volunteers had strong opinions about equipment and implementation, which made the situation more interesting. Companies didn't like hearing that their stuff didn't work, even when it didn't.
Ultimately, they succeeded, and lit up numerous points in the disaster area. They were also able to implement Voice Over IP (VOIP), and provided phone and internet access to shelters.
Ham radio operators turned out to be heroes; they were the first communications system in place. The police and fire radios didn't work at first, and they ended up doing most of the dispatching. (This was because a lot of police and firefighters had come from out-of-town. The problem was that different cities using different radio tranking, and they couldn't communicate with each other.) Ham radio operators have a common set of frequencies worldwide, and they're good at setting up equipment under difficult situations and handling emergency communications. "RF is like plumbing," he said. "It doesn't do exactly what it's supposed to do. You have to get a feel for it." They also got a low-power FM radio station up quickly.
Some attendees suggested taking some (free?) online courses and certifications available at http://www.dhs.org . They cover materials related to disaster response, like chain-of-command, radio, and hazardous materials (HAZMAT). There was also some discussion of a possible civilian signal corps. Another consideration is making this international.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K4RAF on April 26, 2006
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K2GW,
You simply can't find the tree through the forest:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=katrina+wireless
While amateur radio had some role, it is not what was bloated about the web. 99.8% of hams "helped" from home. This simply cannot compare to the scale of relief that happened from other-than-ham groups. The days of NTS message forms & being hand holding go-betweens are long gone. Even the ARC abandoned traffic for internet kiosks for notification of families.
Ham radio has not evolved with the times. Outdated rules are a cause but a slight one. There is a general dismissal of emerging technologies as "consumer toys" yet even the DoD is using them. What does that tell you?
I started with dailywireless.org because of the chronicles carried on that site. Google was a secondary choice but I still can't find the URL you found to support your unbalanced view of ham radio's role.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W9WHE-II on April 27, 2006
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Time that hams recognized reality. This is 2006, not 1976.
1) The days when PS had marginal/fragile communications systems are gone. While no system is bullet-proof, most PS are fairly robust and redily restorable;
2) Ham radio is a technological dinosaur, compaired to a PS digitally trunked system;
3) The average ham is barely more then an appliance operator (except for K1OU - he is a 20 WPM Extra); and
4) Many PS officals have seen hams and especially emcomm types and have decided that they are better off without us.
W9WHE
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K1OU on April 27, 2006
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W9WHE,
I'm not better than you because I am a 20wpm Extra, I am better than you because I don't let organizations run my life. And I am smarter than you because I realize that people make policies, not organizations.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W9WHE-II on April 28, 2006
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K1OU writes:
"........I am better than you because I don't let organizations run my life. And I am smarter than you because I realize that people make policies, not organizations"
All hale Jerry!
Not only is he smarter and better then the rest of us, he is a 20 WPM Extra!
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by N6HBJ on April 28, 2006
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All I gotta say is this!
http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/?cat=7
http://www.hamsexy.com/veh2.html
Ha ha ha!
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If You Need Me...
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by W7LV on April 28, 2006
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I am a little surprised that this thread is still going on. Nonetheless, here is my unsolicted $.02 worth.
If you make an analogy between Emergency Communications and a volunteer fire department you might get a bit closer to the nub here.
It's easy to say, "Well, I put out that grass fire on the vacant lot last summer, and I douse my barbecue grill, and I haven't burned the house down yet, so I don't see why I need to take some cockamamie training to hold onto the hose and ride on the engine."
Even stomping out flaming seedlings in Yellowstone is not the same as holding the business end of a pressurized fire hose and attacking a structure fire.
If the Volunteer Chief says that, according to the rules now in place, one needs to attend a few sessions of training and, perhaps, have a Physical Exam, then that is the regime in place. You will need to bring pencil and paper, and the Medical Officer would probably appreciate it if you bathed prior to showing up.
Don't like it? Hate paper and pencils? Training time interferes with "WWF Smack Down" and/or "Mail Call?" Don't see any need to waste water showering?
This is the USA! Elect new Fire Commissioners!
And, before some of the slow learners jump in to tell me that "It's not the same thing!", well, Pilgrim, it's pretty durned close.
WELL within the margin of error.
::::::::::::::
As for my credentials to make this argument, I submit the following:
I am a licensed, professional US Merchant Marine Oficer. (This means that I do it for Money, not to call myself "Captain" around the yacht club). My training in shipboard firefighting is extensive and biannually refreshed; ditto for Advanced First Aid, CPR, use of defibrillators, helicopter rescues, deep water survival, etc.
That said, I would NOT know how to attack a multi-story structure fire or a fire in a place of assembly.
Burning tankship? Not a problem. Gimme the nozzle, let's Do It. Anywhere, any time.
Smoldering school? Not trained for it. Take my AirPak, and let me get out of your way.
Flaming hotel? Best for all involved that I watch it on CNN from a different Area Code.
::::::::::::::::
RE: My License is bigger than YOUR license!
My FRN is: 0005334313
My License(s) invite your perusal.
(If you don't know how to view FCC licenses with the FRN, you are so seriously behind the Information Curve as to be Irrelevant.
Are they still renewing Conditionals like you?
Hey! Beavis and your denture-whistling buddies are waiting for you on 75 Meters to swap stories about your government-funded Bypass operations and the latest indignities heaped upon you by The New World Order, like Unleaded Gas and making you tie down your mobile home in Florida.
And, Don't forget to LOOK OUT FOR THE BLACK HELICOPTERS!)
FYI, that "T-2 Radiotelegraph Operator" you see, had you opened a new Browser and accessed the Wireless Telecommunicatiosn Bureau site, was earned in front of an FCC Assistant Engineer-in-Charge (not a COLEM or VEC) by, among other things, copying 20 WPM by ear, with pencil and paper, and sending 20 WPM with a straight key, with NO MISTAKES, no electronic keyers or bugs; code groups and plain text for specified periods of time.
NO errors. Miss one character and you go away for 90 days until you can take it again.
Ergo, VEC-examined Extras at any speed are slightly suspect, to me, until I hear your fist on the air.
But that's OK. There's room in this Hobby for all.
Or, as the idiots say (doubtless on their cell phones at 80 MPH on the freeways):
"It's All Good!"
(I have NO idea what that means, unless one is sampling whiskey, chocolates, chili or barbecue, but it's something they say over at the Cool Kids Table, so it must really be "hep!")
-30-
You DO know what -30- means...right?
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by W7LV on April 28, 2006
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RE: http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/?cat=7
RE: http://www.hamsexy.com/veh2.html
These pictures could inspire a whole Brett Butler routine!
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K1OU on April 28, 2006
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Per W9WHE,
"All hale Jerry!
Not only is he smarter and better then the rest of us, he is a 20 WPM Extra!"
Thanks, Jonathan. If that's all you have to hang your haton, you have a big pile of nothing. Also, it is "hail", not "hale". Then again, typical puke from an ambulance chasing lawyer.
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K1CJS on May 12, 2006
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N1EY said:
".....I don't know who the heck does ARES around here. I know a fellow that claims to do it from the section leadership, but I haven't seen the people at the local level other than Carl N1FY. He's also in the Bridgewater group, so what the heck is ARES really? It is an attempt to have the section manager coordinate all the Emcomm from RACES.
I would love to meet the Massachusetts RACES officer.
I don't know what the heck he does. His first step would to something about the Bridgewater MEMA setup
and the lack of radio operators to TAKE A CALL. ....."
Bill, I kinda know what you mean. When the current section manager was 'elected' I made it a point to put in my name for volunteer duties in the Bridgewater MEMA bunker, doing whatever needed doing. I put my name in again a couple of months after, and yet again after that. I was never contacted in responce to volunteering--not by anybody.
Oh, sure, I'm on the local ARES e-mail lists and am supposed to be EC in my area--yet I've NEVER EVER gotten any notifications sent to me personally regarding meetings, training.....or anything else in regards to volunteering. All I get is the Skywarn requests from KD1CY once in a while (the latest was today, BTW), the section ARES e-letters and the new ARRL ARES e-letter for emergency communication people.
I'm waiting to see if I get notification that the ECs and the DECs are supposed to be getting concerning the new on-line identification system the Eastern Mass. section is setting up, but chances are I won't.
Sorry for the dragging commentary, but my point is this: When you volunteer again and again and are not contacted--even to be told 'no thank you', what's the point of having a volunteer system in the first place? My question ties in with your statement about not having a volunteer to take a call.
I was the Fall River, MA city RACES EC, appointed by the city EMA until last year, and I believe I still am the area ARES EC recognized by the Eastern Mass. ARES section, but even when I was the EMA RACES EC, I didn't hear much from the ARES section leadership at all--now I hear nothing.
We ought to get together and start the section 'hear nothing' club, eh?
73, Chris, K1CJS at ARRL.net
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RE: Another view
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by K7AAY on May 31, 2006
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> AE6IP said:
>> "In 2005, during Katrina, the first reliable
>> communications restored in New Orleans was a
>> wi-fi repeater. The New Orleans free wi-fi net
>> became the replacement communications backbone
>> for large chunks of a city. It dwarfs every
>> ham communications project ever undertaken."
Perhaps in the number of bits transmitted.. but in terms of the number of important messages passed? Naahhhh.
KB5DPE replied:
> I don't know. I wasn't there; but your statements
> above contradict everything that I've heard and
> read about ham radio's role in the disaster.
> Furthermore, if the infrastructure was down, with
> whom did this wi-fi network communicate outside of
> the disaster area?
Over one fragile DS-3 that somehow stayed up.
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/08/31/directnic_stays_online_in_new_orleans_facility.html
http://interdictor.livejournal.com/
http://interdictor.livejournal.com/102112.html#cutid1
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RE: If You Need Me...
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by K7AAY on May 31, 2006
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Nice idea... but if the Feds pay for the training, they will dictate everything, including who can be trained. I'd rather stay as indy as possible.
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