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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

I Have a Thing About Grounds

Alan Applegate (K0BG) on April 30, 2006
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I Have A Thing About Grounds

As the title suggests, this article is about grounds. Not just any old ground mind you, but the one(s) that relate to amateur mobile operation. It appears that far too many amateurs don’t know the difference between DC, RF, ground as in Earth, and Ground Plane. It is this specific misunderstanding that has prompted me to write this article.

Although this article could delve into all aspects of the subject matter, in this case there is just one misunderstanding I want to dispel. It is simply this; a ground strap IS NOT a replacement for a proper ground plane! This very misunderstanding comes up almost daily in the Mobile forum on this web site.

A vehicle is a very poor ground plane especially under 30 MHz. In reality, it isn’t much more than a capacitor to what ever surface is under the vehicle. A surface with a conductivity factor we have no control over. Fact is, as we motor around, the surface makeup and conductivity change continuously. Normally, we don’t see this changing conductivity reflected in any of the meters commonly used to monitor transceiver output or SWR. There are exceptions to this, and I’ll touch on them further down.

There are some very important facts that need to be mentioned at this point. Ground loss is the largest single factor we have to deal with when we’re trying to achieve the best HF antenna efficiency we can. It isn’t the only loss we deal with, however.

Since an HF mobile antenna can seldom be a full 1/4 wave in length, it is necessary to place an inductor in the antenna. This inductor (loading coil in common vernacular) cancels out the capacitive reactance caused by the requisite shortening. The word “caused” isn’t really correct in this instance, but will do in place of a lengthy explanation.

Any HF mobile antenna has several resistive factors, that when combined make up its input impedance. One of those is radiation resistance (which isn’t real per se), but the big one is coil loss. In very simple terms, coil loss is the resistive component which does nothing more than produce heat. Again, in simple terms, the more inductance a coil has the more loss it has. As we go down in frequency, the coil must get larger in inductance, thus losses go up, and efficiency goes down. Radiation resistance goes down as well, adding insult to injury. We can increase the coil’s physical size which increases the coil’s Q and reduces its losses, but there is a point of diminishing return. In most cases (not all), coil loss pales in comparison to ground loss.

Definitive numbers for these losses are readily available on the net, and in publications from a variety of sources especially the ARRL. I won’t repeat them here because it is out of context of the main point of the article. Suffice to say, we want to keep all of the losses low (except radiation loss) if efficiency is our goal.

Assuming it is our goal, the most efficient place to mount an HF mobile antenna in in the center of the roof. This reduces the ground losses to a minimum, and it also minimizes antenna coupling losses. Antenna coupling losses are caused in part by the capacitance between the antenna and the surface under the vehicle. Keep in mind, the lower the mounting position the higher ground and coupling losses will be. Although I use the term ground loss as inclusive of all the encountered losses except coil loss and radiation resistance, it is in fact much more complex than most amateurs realize.

Since ground loss is the largest loss factor, it behooves us to keep it as low as we can. Because the body of the vehicle (and its capacitance to the surface under it) is the other half of our antenna, any thing we place between the two, adds additional loss. I’ve picked a couple of examples to illustrate the point.

Keeping coil losses low is an important goal in maintaining efficiency, so the coil must be located as far away from the body of the vehicle as possible. This fact causes some amateurs to assume that by placing their antenna atop a long stalk will reduce coil losses. That’s true, but the ground losses skyrocket!

Some amateurs don’t like to drill holes to mount their antennas (at least ones that can be seen), so they mount them on various kinds of brackets. One popular place is the rear hatch or trunk lid as the case may be.

Because these locations and mounting methods are not ideal, some amateurs assume a simple ground strap between the mount and the body of the vehicle will replace the lack of an adequate ground plane under the antenna, and the associated losses therein. This assumption is incorrect! Unless of course the ground straps are long enough to act as radials, which is a ridiculous notion. In fact, the mount doesn’t have to grounded to the vehicle at all! It could even be made of plastic! If grounding the mount cured an RFI problem, or lowered your SWR, then something else was (is) amiss.

There is a lot of popular discussion with respect to how much importance all of this has. After all, some antenna is better than no antenna. The other justification goes something like this. “I’ll have you know I worked Peter Island on 40 meters with my hatch-mounted mini bug catcher and got a 59 report.” This only proves one thing; just how little radiated power it really takes to communicate.

My father liked to use the phrase “high, wide, and handsome” in describing an ideal. It is very apropos when it comes to the ideal HF mobile antenna, and its location on the vehicle. Higher, bigger, and better are the main adjectives if the prime goal is to get heard. Anything less is exactly that, less.

I mentioned above that you don’t normally see the changing conductivity of the surface you’re driving over reflected in any of the meters commonly used to monitor transceiver output or SWR. If you do, it means your antenna is mounted to close to the pavement. In a similar fashion, if the SWR changes as the antenna moves around in the slipstream, it's mounted too close to the body. Remember my father’s admonition, “High Wide and Handsome”.

Achieving an efficient HF mobile set up is almost an oxymoronic statement. Some very popular commercial HF mobile antennas are less than 1% efficient on 75 meters, and perhaps approach 10% on 20 meters (compared to a well designed and properly ground planed 1/4 wave base station vertical). Yet, their owners rant and rave about how many DX stations they have worked. Assume for a moment you could increase the efficiency to 5% on 75 meters, and to 50% on 20 meters; how many DX stations do you think you could work then? It is, in fact, possible to achieve these higher efficiencies, but I’ll guarantee you that it takes more than a chunk of RG 8 braid between the antenna mount and the body of the vehicle to do it.

Alan, KØBG

http://www.k0bg.com

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KE7GOJ on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Just becuase I am in a troublemaking mood...

what then is the point, as you advocate on your web site, of electrically bonding all of the panels (door, trunk, hood, bonnet, etc) together? If it doesn't help RFI (I swear I saw something on your web site that said the opposite, but I'm working from memory here so I'm probably wrong), and it doesn't help SWR, and it doesn't increase the "ground plane" and thus improve the antenna ERP, then why bother? Just so I can take some pictures of all the cool braids bonding my trunk lid to the body of my car?

OK, I'll stop before I make more of a fool of myself.

mike
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KD4AC on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Actually, he never says that it doesn't.
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KD4AC on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
And I meant he never said it doesn't as far as RFI is concerned.
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by WA1RNE on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan;

If the intent of this article was to be a primer on mobile antenna grounding, I think most beginners are going to be very confused.


Simply put, I don't see the big deal with using a "ground strap" between the RF return point at the base of the antenna and the body of the vehicle.

As you said in so many words, the mobile environment is a challenge compared to a fixed installation and mounting a loaded HF vertical in the middle of ones roof is usually the last choice, except for diehards.


When I ran HF mobile back in the 70's, I used a Hustler vertical with a bumper mount on the rear of the car - a very popular installation. Given that the vehicle body could not be enhanced to decouple the loaded vertical, the most important consideration was the design of the loading inductors and mast, the quality of the materials and insuring the antenna was tuned properly for the frequency of operation.


I didn't rely on the bumper mount for a good RF ground to the vehicle body; I used a short length of copper braid from a piece of RG-8/U which worked fine.

As long as its made from ~1/2 wide copper braid or better and kept as short as possible to minimize self inductance, there shouldn't be a problem. These techniques are used for fixed stations, so they will work fine in a mobile environment - and they do.


So was the intent of this article to be a primer on mobile antenna grounding or was it meant to be more about key design considerations for an efficient mobile HF antenna *system*??


73, Chris
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by WF7A on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the article, Alan! I have a question, though: I can see how top-loading a mobile HF antenna would be advantageous when working the shorter wavelengths (like 10M), but is there be a quantifiable advantage for doing that with the longer wavelengths? I imagine the losses would be so high, anyway, with the longer ones that there wouldn't be any measurable or real difference in performance whether the antenna is top or bottom-loaded at that point. Then again, I may be talking out of my (capacitance) hat.

Cheers,
Rich
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K0BG on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mike, bonding the movable body parts like the trunk lid, doors, etc., performs several functions. It does reduce the likelihood of RFI, egress and ingress. It also improves what little ground plane a vehicle represents. That wasn't my point.

Here's a typical question "I have a Hamstick mounted on a Comet mount bolted to my luggage carrier, and the SWR is too high. What do I do?"

Typical answer: " You don't have your antenna grounded. You need to run a ground strap from the mount to the body."

The point being, if DC grounding an antenna mount fixed a high SWR problem, or reduced RFI, then something else in the system wasn't installed correctly.

I suspect there is a hidden agenda too. In the 35 years I've been operating mobile, I have seen some of the sloppiest installations you can imagine. They worked well enough to work some DX, so why bother doing it correctly? Well, here's a few reasons: Safety, Pride, Reliability, Spousal approval, and a few more.

You can safely argue that I have an ascetic view of operating mobile; I openly admit it. I'll back it up with this question: How many mobile have you been in that had an RFI level under S1 with the engine running?

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KE7CFA on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I'm about as new to Ham Radio as it gets. I won't pretend to know what I don't know. I'm running an 8900, with the CR8900 (Diamond) antenna.

The problem I am having is RFI. Not with the radio, but with the vehicle. I did the installation myself, and tuned it myself. However, I took it to a professional and had it 'looked at' and had the antenna tested and tuned. I have, also, asked several Hams what they thought, nobody can tell me what is going on - although they have had similar problems.

In a nut shell, on 6m and 10m, when I key the mic - it drives my dash board nuts. All the idiot lights go off like a police car in hot pursuit. This diminishes with the out-put of the radio (watts), and it doesn't always happen. All the lights blink on and off - even the ones that are not 'hooked up'. For example, I do not have cruse control - but this light goes off too.

It only happens when the engine is running. I have tried this with the engine off, and the key in every position. The radio, itself, works good. With the engine off, 6m works good (can't really test 10m yet). Even with the light trouble 6m works good and all the test I have had run on the antenna have come back good. That said, I only use 6m with the engine shut off. I don't know what else it may be affecting, so until I have get a handle on this 6m will have to wait.

Any ideas on this? Remember I am new, so be gentle with the terminology.

-73
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K0BG on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Chris, you missed the point. You said you didn't rely on the bumper to be a good RF ground. So, you installed a short braid. That short braid might have (??) improved the DC continuity, but its effect on ground losses was nil.

I'll agree that antenna construction is important. And moving the coil towards the top of the antenna does increase the radiation resistance for that portion above the coil. But ground losses are the largest loss you have to deal with. On 75 meters, doubling the coil Q, and/or doubling the radiation resistance has very little effect, because the ground losses represent nearly 80% of the over all loss. A simple ground strap will not magically negate this fact.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K0BG on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Richard, send me an e-mail and I'll help you with your problem.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
AN RF Bonding Tale  
by HA5RXZ on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Note that this is NOT about grounding but maybe it can serve to illustrate the difference between bonding and grounding.

Many years ago I operated 2M FM mobile, my Father drove whilst I operated from the back seat. It was one way to pass vacation time. One vehicle, an old Ford Escort, had turn indicators which flashed at twice the normal rate when I was transmitting. I was amused by this but my Father was not too keen. The antenna was a quarter wave rod fixed to the gutter near a rear window and I was transmitting about ten watts.

The problem was cured by adding a bonding strap between the bonnet (hood for American readers) and the bodywork. I suspect that the connection from the bonnet to the rest of the car was not too good due to either grease or paint. OK, as I said, this isn't about grounding, but it indicates the sort of problem you can have if you skimp on bonding.

HA5RXZ
 
RE: AN RF Bonding Tale  
by K6AER on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan.

In your article you said, “Antenna coupling losses are caused in part by the capacitance between the antenna and the surface under the vehicle…..Since ground loss is the largest loss factor, it behooves us to keep it as low as we can. Because the body of the vehicle (and its capacitance to the surface under it) is the other half of our antenna, any thing we place between the two, adds additional loss. I’ve picked a couple of examples to illustrate the point.”

The vehicle body capacitance to earth ground and the resistivity of the earth ground as an RF counter point is worthless. Measure over a metal plate (6” ground clearance) a typical vehicle measures about 200pf. Grounded mounted verticals with several ground rods driven into the earth, no mater what the ground resistance, is at best a bad RF counterpoise ground. This is why we have to add radials and I might add lots of them in order to reduce the counterpoise resistance to a few ohms. The capacitive coupling of a vehicle body to the ground passing underneath it provides no real capacitive counterpoise at all in HF mobile operation. Your only real low impedance counter poise in HF operation is the vehicle metal work.

Mounting of the antenna is better up high but in lower band operation (160-40 meters) you have to look the counter poise of the vehicle length as an inductive factor. With the length of the vehicle as a counter poise inductor the antenna pattern may be highly directive but the will at least be more efficient in one direction than if the antenna is mounted in the center of the roof and inefficient in all directions.
 
RE: AN RF Bonding Tale  
by N6AJR on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
On the other hand, it is very hard to run a 6/10/12/15/17/20/40 meter fan dipole mobile, and using a mast and multiple hustler tips is unweildy and awkward.

So on the cars I use an ATAS 120 and the truck has an origional DK-3 screwdriver.

They all need a good electrical and rf ground to work. This is short, and near the antenna into the body. Also the radio is grounded at the mounting point. Grounds do count.

Is it the best antenna in the world, no it stinks compared to my gap voyager on 40 meters or my steppir on 6 to 20 m.


BUT for a mobile it does give me the ability to work some stations while driving down the road. I like to change bands while moving and this works well for what it is.

I realize it will never have the abilities of a good ground mounted system at home. I also realize that for ease of use, installation and lack of holes in the roof, it does pretty good.

If I want to work 3B9C or VU4 I will probably need to use the setup at home, but for working the CC late net or the HHH net or checking in a swap net, or just rag chewing with someone a couple of states away while crusing down the interstate, it is ok.

Don't expect a mobile antenna to be an equivlent of a tower mounted monster. It anin't never going to happen , but a good ground on a screwdriver mobile is a good work around.

I guess it all depens on where you want to go.
 
RE: AN RF Bonding Tale  
by K0BG on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mike, K6AER, the actual difference between mounting an antenna at one end of the vehicle, as opposed to the center, is so slight, it is almost not measurable at HF frequencies; subjective reports and popular literature notwithstanding.

The main factors are keeping the antenna away from the body structure, and away from the ground to minimize coupling to the ground. Both of which add to the overall losses commonly amassed together as ground loss. The actual ground loss exhibited by the capacitive coupling of the vehicle body to surface under it is another matter altogether.

The 200 pF figure you quote does not agree with actual measurements by Belrose and others. Of course if varies with the size and clearance of the vehicle, but it's closer to .004 uF. I'm curious how you arrived at your figure.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: AN RF Bonding Tale  
by KE7GOJ on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment. After reading your reply, I think I have a much better understanding of what you are trying to say. I also apologize for the rather snippy tone. I have not had a very good last couple of days, which is really no excuse. From everything I have read from you and on your web site, you certainly did not deserve that, especially from me.

mike
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by N0AH on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,


"In this science, there are always surprises that can't be explained but certainly can be enjoyed."

Ben Franklyn
Lord Apple Science Fair
London, England, 1765
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by T32AI on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Some of these mag-mounts don't have a decent ground connection to the metal of their magnet ring so they're in essence capacitively coupled to the body of the vehicle - - great for 27Mhz but suck @ 3.8Mhz.
Ferrite or torroidal rings or "snap-on" (similar to your tel line type) can work wonders on the rf traveling back down the line braid and out of the dashboard or adjoining equipment. Clean and de-painted connections can help the straps here and there but oxidation will arise again in a vehicle (especially up Nort der eh!) but dragging a chain to ground won't work for long either.
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K0BG on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mr. Porter, no offense taken. Remember, friends don't have to say they're sorry. The fact that you did speaks volumes about your character as a gentleman.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KB7HIN on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
ALAN
GREAT SUBJECT AND A LOT OF GOOD INFO. CHECK YOUR WEB SITE OUT, IT IS FULL OF ALL KINDS OF INFO. THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO PUT IT OUT ON E-HAM. YES YOUR DAD WAS RIGHT HIGH WIDE AND HANDSOME. THATS ME TO....EVERY TIME I OPEN UP E-HAM I LEARN SOMETHING NEW. THANKS AGAIN.
73'S FROM -DAN- KB7HIN
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KC0RDG on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Good article. I am glad you are making an effort to clear up some information. As always, I recommend ANY and EVERYONE to do alot of research before embarking on any project. Your article adds to that wealth of knowledge available about mobile mounting.

I use a roof mag mount that works just fine.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it!

73
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by N2HBZ on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
This is your best article, Alan.
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by N4ABA on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, I've perused most of your articles and would like to say "thanks" for taking the time to share with us! I drive what should be FCC licenced as a transmitter....a 2001 Ford Ranger (4 cyl, dual plug FI engine). The FT857 pretty much showed S9++ all the time on HF. I bonded all body panels together (1/2" silver plated mesh w/copper paste at ground sites), did quite a bit on the fuel pump (caps to gnd, short gnd to body, ferrites as a "hail mary" on the power leads), put ferrites on the computer in/out (and will probably try .01 caps to gnd on the injector leads), ferrites on the plug & injector wires, etc. Dropped the hash problem to the point I could actually hear a station on 17M.....but the antenna setup still was not that great. I'm using the ATAS (limited to that antenna, long story) and started swapping positions around on the bed of the truck. The best position I've found is 2/3s of the way down (driver's side) and physically bolted to the bed, i.e., a metal bracket, star washers, etc. to secure it. With this setup I can tell when I cross a bridge, etc and the coupling changes between the vehicle and RF ground. Funny I never heard that before....! Again, thanks for taking the time to publish this data.....lots of us appreciate it, and use it to do the best possible with what we've got.

Andrew
N4ABA
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KC8VWM on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I am one of those people who absolutely, positively will never drill a hole in the roof of my car.
----

C'mon Caity how can you be a "real ham" without any holes in your car?

:)

 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KC8VWM on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Good article. Accutate, clear and informative.

Alan, do you write professionally? :)

My Best,

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K7VO on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Based on numerous eHam posts I have learned that I am *NOT* a real ham. You wouldn't want me to go into why, would you?

Nope, no holes for me.

73,
Caity
K7VO
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KC8VWM on April 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Uh.. no I suppose I better not ask... I am starting to have a funny feeling about that possible explanation for some reason.

:)

Charles - KC8VWM


 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by AA4PB on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Caity, I'm sure that many will agree with your "no holes" approach. As long as the performance trade off is acceptible to you then I see no problem with that.

Personally, every car I have ever owned had a hole put in the center of the roof within the first week. In over 40 years of doing this I have never had a leak and you can't tell from the inside that an antenna is even there. There are no coax buldges, damaged headliner, etc. so your concerns are unfounded *if* it is done correctly.
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by W3LK on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Caity:

To further beat on the dead equine laying crossways in the middle of the road ...

In forty years of installing antennas of all kinds in many, many vehicles, I have never seen a _properly_installed_ NMO mount leak. I can't say the same for some of the UHF mount installations I have seen, but even the majority of those don't leak if done correctly and not used with large, heavy antennas that flex the mount excessively

Headliner damage generally comes from the antenna installer not knowing what his/she is doing.

I have no problem if you choose to use and recommend what Alan, myself and others feel are second-best or inferior installations, but please respect that we have the right to point out the falacies/problems with such installations and that what we are saying is based on long experience as well as advice from people who make a living doing professional antenna installations.

I make no comment here an specific antennas or brands. :)

Lon W3LK
Baltimore, Maryland

 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K3ESE on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
mmmm...coffee
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by W3LK on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
<< mmmm...coffee >>

Nah, cold caffine in a red can. <gg>
 
RE: AN RF Bonding Tale  
by KE7CFA on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
HA5RXZ - I've looked, the bonnet has a ground strap (1/2"). I could put a heavier dufy one on, I guess. I talked this over with an electrics engineer. He told me, in general terms, that modern cars Have a lot of processors (some times called brain boxes).

These too, are grounded to the body. All the idiot lights are LED's, so it don't take much to set them off (at least I hope that is all that is being effected). In short, 'things under the hood' don't seem to be effected.

It is a Jeep Wrangler, so the roof is plastic - no shielding. Odds are, the dash board is all plastic too. This is why I (and some others) suspect RFI. However, they all share a common ground - the car body.

This don't happen on 70cm or 2m. Only 6m and 10m. The antenna is mounted on the back - as far from the engine as I could get it. I have even thought about lining the ceiling with tin foil - but I don't think I could live that one down.

Sense I have been 'working' on this I have heard some real horror stories. One Ham told me everytime he has the cruse control on (Ford truck) and he keys the mic - the engine speeds up. So he has to turn it off when he transmits. Then there is one fellow who's gages go nuts, and another one who's window wipers turn on when he keys the mic.

I talked to one 'old Ham', he gave up and bought an older (pre-electronics) vehicle. With me it's only the idiot lights - not the gages or anything else that I can tell.

I figure, its either the ground - or RFI. Either way, it's over my head. One thing is for sure, I'm going to figure this out before I buy another 'modern car'.

Alan - Thank's for helping me out with this.
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KD4AC on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I am more afraid of a leak down the road"

Well, that's certainly your choice. Like others, in all my years of mobile operation, I've NEVER had an NMO or UHF mount leak yet. But then, I'm talking about VHF/UHF antennas. Although, I did have a Wilson 1000 mounted on my vehicle for 10M operation and that never leaked either.

KD4AC
 
RE: AN RF Bonding Tale  
by K6AER on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

Sorry it took so long to get back to your post, took a short vacation.

The vehicle was a Subaru Forester parked over a 4' by 8 foot metal plate in out service facility. The meter used was a Protek CM110 Capacitance Meter with the leads attached to the metal plate and the vehicle frame.

This vehicle stands a bit higher than the standard car and I would guess the ground clearance to be about 6-8 inches average.

Nice article keep up the good work.

Mike - K6AER
 
Holes in the roof  
by WA5ZNU on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Just get a sunroof...
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by WA1RNE on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Chris, you missed the point. You said you didn't rely on the bumper to be a good RF ground. So, you installed a short braid. That short braid might have (??) improved the DC continuity, but its effect on ground losses was nil."


>>> Alan, I never said the purpose of the braided connection was to reduce ground losses.

The purpose of the braid is to ensure a reasonable RF connection between the frame/body of the car and the RF return point of the antenna mount - as opposed to relying on the chrome plated bumper to make that connection.


The vehicle was a 1970 Caddy Coupe de Ville - with more body surface area than today's typical land yacht. It worked as well as could be expected with 120 watts out on 75-10 meters. Just about anyone I could hear could hear me. I have fond memories of working everything from Northern Ireland on 15 meters to working Michigan at night on 75 meters.


BTW, nobody in their right mind mounts a Hustler mobile vertical on the roof of a vehicle with a vinyl top - especially a Cadillac, wouldn't you agree???


73, Chris


 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KA3NXN on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I cannot agree more, about proper vehicle ground (bonding)& proper antenna installation. I have let's see 1,2,3,4,5....8! Yes E-I-G-H-T antennas on my 98 Ford Exploder, oops I mean Explorer hehehe. Four of which are NMO holes mounted on the roof. I am the original owner of the vehicle and it has been through several hurricanes and look ma NO leaks! Also my headliner is not drooping like those of the 80's vintage cars that would end up in your lap or completely blocking the driver's view of the rear window. You know the ones. In fact, you cannot tell that there are 4 antennas just above your head, other than the fact that I have more radios in the car than antennas on the car. Oh yea, since I drive my vehicles into the ground resale is not an issue. Hey now I have a complete mobile station that the county has come to recognize as emergency communications. That covers from 80M-70cm ALL MODE! Plus several scanners to monitor the various systems in the area and full GPS capabilities, and oh yea a wireless laptop. The HF side of my setup has allso a 500 watt linear, and I never interfere with any of my truck's electronics.When all hell breaks loose and their precious 800MHz system fails. They come-a-callin. "When all else fails...Ham Radio!"
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by WB2WIK on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds Reply
by W3LK on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Caity:

To further beat on the dead equine laying crossways in the middle of the road ...

In forty years of installing antennas of all kinds in many, many vehicles, I have never seen a _properly_installed_ NMO mount leak. I can't say the same for some of the UHF mount installations I have seen, but even the majority of those don't leak if done correctly and not used with large, heavy antennas that flex the mount excessively

Headliner damage generally comes from the antenna installer not knowing what his/she is doing.<

::Truer words were never spoken. This doesn't have much to do with the "grounding" article (!) but I agree. I've popped a hole in the center of the roof of every car I've ever owned or leased, never seen one leak a drop and never seen a dealer care when it comes time to trade in or turn a leased vehicle back in, for that matter. If it's low profile and professionally done, you don't see it, anyway. And the mount + cable costs $17.95. I don't need to retrieve that investment by trying to "un-install" it.

::Now, back to "grounding!"


 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by A9KW on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Put some snap on chokes on the wires where they go in to the car's computer.
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by W7FBT on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hmmm....I'm just wondering if the dead equine laying across the road would help minimize ground losses? hehehe
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K7VO on May 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Lon,

You have failed utterly to convince me that my installations have been second best or inferior in any way. Sorry, they work. They work well. They are problem free.

No, I don't install antennas for a living. I'm just a ham who has been operating HF mobile, mainly QRP SSB, for the last 20+ years. You know as well as I do that QRP SSB is challenging under the best of conditions. On VHF/UHF I happen to have more antennas in the garage than Carter has little pills. I don't know how many I've tried but I'm sure the number is impressive. I run what works best for me and seems to work better than what 90%+ of the hams in my area use based.

I have a choice: believe you or believe my experiences which give me a huge amount of evidence to the contrary. Many of the things you seem to stress (as in using NMO mounts always and UHF mounts never) make very, very little if any difference at all.

Oh, and I am still not having holes drilled in my car. I'm sure I don't know how to do it properly and I can't be certain a "professional" does either. The quotes are deliberate. In my field I've seen plenty of totally incompetent "professionals" who continue to earn a living in spite of themselves. I assume antenna installers are no differnt.

73,
Caity
K7VO
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KC8VWM on May 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
nobody in their right mind mounts a Hustler mobile vertical on the roof of a vehicle with a vinyl top - especially a Cadillac, wouldn't you agree???

--------------

I would tend to think a hole in the roof would substantially increase it's trade in value at any given hamfest, wouldn't you agree???

:)

73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KW5KW on May 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Being not only a ham, but in the new car business for 30 + years, I also REFUSE to drill a hole in ANY vehicle. Lip mounts, bumper mounts, mag mounts, receiver mounts all are useable but no holes.

I trade cars every 1 to 4 years with 3 being the average and holes drastically reduce resale value, especially in today's market.

Holes even go to the interior, no visible holes in dash or console (invisible holes--OK!) wires are 'stuffed' or simply laid under a floormat. Power wires to battery but around door frame, coax thru the rear seat (fold down rear seats a big +) and out through some grommet that is pre-esisting.

Now, if you wish to drive your car into the ground (as one poster suggested) then you're prefectly by me to make your vehicle look like swiss cheese. But not if you're going to have any resale value, and in today's market with people upside down every dollar counts. Not to even mention lease vehicles where you can't do anything to them without getting charged on turn in (better never spill a cup of coffee on your seat in a lease vehicle, it'll cost ya!)

Holes that are small, hidden (1/4 inch for ground connections for hood/deck lid to body and/or doors to body that are never seen then they are just dandy, but, not visible holes!

Russ - KW5KW

 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KD5FUL on May 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, Et All...
I have one for all y'all that will surely get the
fingers scratching your heads for certain.
I have run HF mobile many many times, but uh, the mobile is NOT like your little cars and pickup trucks.
I will soon be buying one of my very own.
...A freightliner Columbia.
When I do get the truck, I plan to mount my '706 again, and most likely, go with the handful of hamsticks I had used in the past with the best luck.
My question for Alan is this:
What is a good, basic, primer besides "high and handsome" for getting these antennas grounded and operating at the peak of possibility?
73 DE James kd5ful
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by VE7RWN on May 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well now you have done it Alan. The can you opened up has worms wriggling all over my desk and keyboard. The subject of dc grounds, rf grounds, counterpoise et al in the mobile environment is ripe with conjecture and unexplained miracles.

The fact is that if there is not an effective dc ground at the feedpoint of the antenna, there will be problems with the rf system. I say dc ground as there are few mobile hf installations that will exhibit a decent rf ground. Those exceptions being very large vehicles such as full size vans and transport trucks.

As most hams would know, the lack of a dc ground at the feedpoint places rf on the shield of the coax, which becomes a pipeline back into the vehicle. This may not effect older vehicles, but modern vehicles with numerous cpu controlled systems become very susceptable to problems. Many people don't know that modern vehicles have thier turns signals controlled by a cpu and the clicking noise is created behind the dash with a noise maker. Gone are the old two pin flasher relays! The other issue with modern vehicles is the extensive use of plastic in the construction of the vehicle, and the need of the manafactures to make modern vehicles as quiet as possible. With everything being rubber mounted there are numerous points of entry for rf to propagate as a result of all these floating grounds, or lacks of grounds alltogether. I mention all of this in response to your comment that adding a ground strap at the antenna feedpoint should not correct RFI. Grounding the feedpoint of the antenna helps keep rf off of the coax!

I do agree that mounting the antenna as high as possible is the very best installation in an otherwise very much comprimised environment, but for some, that is not a viable option.

One point that I feel your article failed to illustrate is the radiation pattern exhibited from the antenna. The lower the antenna is mounted on a vehicle, the more subject the vehicle can become to RFI. As the various systems in the vehicle become more exposed to the radiation pattern from the antenna, the more rf can get into the vehicle, and upset the delicate balancing act the various systems in the vehicle are performing. Keep in mind very few of these systems are shielded from themselves, let alone from 100 watts of rf. Most of the modern vehicle manafactures have dealt with this inter system interference by using "twisted pair" signal lines for network communication, but some still use single wire serial type of networks.

All things considered, it can be quite a challenge to deal with rf in a vehicle.

I do enjoy your aricles, Alan, but felt the need to add my cdn 2.25 cents worth.

73, Rob, ve7rwn

 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by K4KFN on May 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I just completed a “no holes” installation on my 2004 GM Astro Van. This was my first venture into HF mobile. I am using a Kenwood TS-480sat, Comet lip mount on the hatch door, and Hamsticks for 40 and 20 meters. I mounted the antenna as high as possible and the bottom of the antenna is almost even with the top of the van. I connected the DC feed directly to the battery.

I have been pleased with the performance of the installation. No extra bonding, straps or beads were necessary. I do have a small amount of engine noise but the noise blanker takes it right out. It took me about 20 minutes to get the Hamsticks trimmed to the frequency I wanted and with the built in tuner I can operate over a large bandwidth on 40 and 20. I plan to order antennas for 17, 10, and 6 meters this week. Right now I will not try 75 meters; I don’t want to push my luck.

The performance has been much better than I expected. For comparison, I have checked my mobile performance against my base setup. I am amazed at how little drop off in performance I have when I go mobile.

I certainly realize that my installation represents a compromise but I am willing to live with the compromise installation because I will not drill holes in my vehicles. I trade every 3 to 4 years and in my opinion holes in the roof do lower a vehicles value, at least for me. I look at this as the same compromise I make when I use a dipole for my base antenna instead of a 6 element beam at 55 feet.

Whether you drill holes or you do not, the important fact is that mobile HF is great fun and a challenge. Try it and have a good time.

Tom K4KFN
 
I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by KF4HR on May 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Here's the bottom line(s):

1. Mobile antennas are never going to be as efficient as a full length dipole, vertical, loop, or yagi. Mobile antennas are a compromise to start with, simple and plain. And the difference in effectiveness between brands, mounting locations, etc, makes for a small percentage difference.

2. Mobile vs Base... Common sense; lack of capture and transmit area on mobile antennas. Long works better than short, especially on the low bands. Not rocket science.

2. Most people aren't willing to drill a hole in the center of their vehicle's roof. (Note the availability of all the other mounting options that have become available on the market; magnets, lip-mounts, hitch mounts, etc.)

3. Regardless of where you mount the antenna, it'll work better the more ground straps you use; base of the antenna mount to body (especially), doors to body, hatch to body, exhaust to body (in several places), and engine to body, etc.

4. Assuming a clear frequency and good skip conditions, it doesn't take a kilowatt to communicate -so inefficient mobile antennas, regardless where they're mounted, can still work fine (or good enough).

As for the guy running the FT-8900 and having the dash lights come on, I recommend connecting some braid from the base of the antenna. Solder some braid onto a large washer and place the washer under the base of the antenna (good electrical connection is a must - scrape paint off the mount too to assist the electrical connection from the mount to the body). Then make the above grounding connections noted in #3 above. Sounds like you have RF floating everywhere.

As for the article. Good theory lesson, but with the exception of the idea of drilling a hole in the middle of your roof, not much in the way of help. ID'ing the problem AND solutions would have brought the article full circle.
 
RE: I Have a Thing About Grounds  
by W7LV on May 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
With respect to Russ' post above, I am in the unenviable position of agreement. I leased my Honda in November, and American Honda Finance leaves the issue of charges on the back end of the lease due to damage or modification to the Dealer accepting the car for Lease Return.

Having drilled several hundred NMO holes in my life, I greased up the Antenex hole saw...and stopped. I called 3 Honda dealers. Each one wanted $340 - $400 at lease end for a 3/4" roof penetration.

And so, there is a technically tacky NMO trunk lip mount for my dual bander now on the hood.

It usually warms my heart to know that my radiation pattern is substantially improved over an isoptropic radiator...but not $400 worth.

FYI, I have mounted HF antennas "Aussie" style on pickup truck and SUV Grille Guards with some success for about 12 years. Is the pattern as good as it might be, were the antenna mounted to the roof of, say, a 1953 Oldsmobile?

Probably not.

But then, I don't have a Multi-Elmac to run to it, anyway, and I checked my Dynamotor Locker and found it empty.

I have driven pickup trucks and SUV's since Soccer Mommies were selling Girl Scout cookies. To avoid the aggravation of marketing a used truck/carryall with four holes in the dash and one in the roof, I always, upon buying a new car, go buy a shiny new CB rig and one of TRAM's 27 mHz antennas with the NMO base.

I put these away.

I make certain that any rig-mounting holes in the interior can be covered by the CB radio.

When Go-Away Time occurs for the truck, I unscrew the NMO ham antenna from the roof and replace it with the TRAM. Same for the radio inside. Tune the antenna (takes a few minutes).

Rather than a propsective purchaser saying, "Ewwwww...it's got a hole in the roof!", I much more often see them focus on the shiny new CB yack box and its shiny new antenna (no sun-faded coil housing, no bent rod from car washes).

A few dollars out of pocket is a lot cheaper than taking a couple of hundred off the price and trying to argue that the vehicle hasn't been in commercial service.

-30-
 
RE: AN RF Bonding Tale  
by K4III on May 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

KE7CFA,

Where are you pulling power from? Battery directly? Fuse panel? Should be at least a 25-30Amp unused fuse slot or directly to the battery. (Also, make sure you fuse as close to the power source as possible)

Check to see where the "Chips" are located for your vehicle. They can be in the trunk, under the back seat, in the fuse panel, front hood, etc... If you get a lot of RF near these chips or chip boxes, you can cause a lot of problems with vehicle computer electronics. The good news is that you're not the only one experiencing these problems. Lots of military vehicles, law and government vehicles have had these issues show up recently because of vehicle chip integration and I believe the FCC is currently attempting to have Congress pass laws requiring more shielding and less rf-interfering chips to be placed into vehicles, which will help down the road.

Otherwise, I would check your SWR on 10m and 6m and also check to see that your coax shield is also grounded to the vehicle. (You can use a multimeter between metal vehicle point and antenna ground)

Yet another idea...
I was using rg-58 and was getting some radio interference until I upgraded to a Teflon-silver double-shielded coax. Also, make sure you don't have any "angle adapters" or sharp turns in your coax. It will drive your radio nuts and affect your vhf/uhf no matter what quality or material the angle adapter is made of, made in China Nickel or Amphenol!

To test, I would remove the radio and hold it in different areas around the vehicle while transmitting and see whether the inteference changes based on where you stand with the radio and mic. This will determine whether it is an antenna-location issue. Try a mag-mount and then move the antenna around with the radio installed in the vehicle to see whether it is an antenna location issue. One of these tests should figure out where the problem is coming from.

Worst case scenario, call the manufacturer and inform them you are having problems with an installed CB radio. Most likely you will if you are having problems on 10m and 6m. Most companies have plans and manufacture vehicles so that cb's can be installed, including my German Audi! At least they probably will assist with info on how to wire it, where to place the antenna, etc... (Tell some that it is for a ham setup and they'll hang up after stating the vehicle isn't supposed to be a radio station and is operating outside its designed environment, WARRANTY VOID!)

I discovered after removing the emergency clamp on the trunk of my Audi (3 phillips screws), an engraved circle with the words "drill ant here". This was for installation of a cell or cb antenna. Wanna bet this isn't shown in the manual?

Let me know whether you still have this problem or what your results are.
 
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