What is 'Good Enough'?
Pat Lambert (W0IPL)
on
May 4, 2006
View comments about this article!
As we look at the extensive knowledge, skill and equipment requirements
for providing effective Emergency Communications (ECom), we find many
operators with significant experience gained years, or even decades,
ago. We ask "What types of emergencies were encountered?" and "How much
of that expertise is still applicable to current situations and needs?"
Floods, forest fires, earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes haven't
changed much over the years, and previous experience from those events
can be invaluable today. On the other hand, is there anyone amongst us,
who in their wildest dreams, could have envisioned New York City on
September 11, 2001? I doubt it, but this new category of disaster
(terrorism) painfully demonstrates the new challenges, requirements
and issues that we, as emergency communicators, will need to be ready
to deal with. Other issues involve significant changes in equipment,
ECom techniques and served agency expectations.
While some of the equipment and ECom practices used years ago are good,
70s techniques and equipment are probably not adequate to handle the
ECom requirements today. Equipment, modes and techniques have advanced
far beyond what we could ever have dreamt of in 1970. Our served
agencies now reasonably expect us to adapt and evolve to accommodate and
overcome new challenges. Served agency expectations have expanded far
beyond what "got the job done" in 1970. We need to understand and
conform to the Incident Command System (ICS) and the follow-on
National Incident Management System (NIMS). They reasonably expect our
communication capabilities and techniques to have evolved. They presume
our people are accustomed to functioning well with law enforcement,
fire, Forest Service, FEMA and disaster relief organizations.
Simply put, what was "good enough" and "got the job done" in 1970 is now
less than adequate to support ECom today.
BASIC TRAINING
Back in the 70's there were many Emergency Coordinators (ECs)
that used the teaching techniques like "dump them in the deep end so
they will learn to swim". I really believe that many of those who
learned ECom techniques then, tend to not be as ready share their
knowledge. Fortunately for all of us, those who learned the hard way,
and are still active, really appreciate the expedience of well
documented process and procedures.
What do you actually learn from these processes and procedures? The
basics of true communication (SUMMARIZE) and how to interact
successfully with the Amateur Radio team and even more importantly, how
to interact with the Served Agency. One radio operator has no one to
talk to! It is only when you learn to successfully work with your team
that you become part of a communications unit. This unit then learns to
work with the Served Agency in a productive manner. Gee! Sounds like
ICS / NIMS doesn't it?
One of the more notable examples of training material is the ARRL's
Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Course (ARECC). Developed
largely by sixteen volunteers and then reformatted and embellished by
the ARRL's staff, it has grown into an education vehicle for both
new-comers and more seasoned veterans alike.
ARECC
With ARECC available then, how is it that virtually everyone is not
an accomplished Emergency Communicator? First, having completed the
course does not qualify you as an ECom guru. "What!?" you say,
"What else do I need to do?" "What does this card in my wallet mean?"
Simple, you need to learn to apply the principles presented by the
ARECC course. Once you have acquired those skills, you will need to
practice, practice and practice to hone those skills into something
that you do "by instinct" rather than have to think about doing.
The easiest analogy is riding a bicycle. If you learn to ride your
bike when you are five years old and ride it every day for two years,
and then don't ride it again until you are fifty, are you really
qualified to safely ride your bike in rush hour traffic? Obviously
not. It is only with ongoing training that you fully acquire and
maintain skills. ARECC simply provides you the foundation to build
those skills upon.
ON-GOING TRAINING
On-going training is the easiest and least painful way to hone the
skills you have and allow you to build new ones. How much training
are you going to require? That depends on how much previous training
you have had and how often you have reinforced that training.
This is one place where more is better.
Many people believe that checking into a weekly net is sufficient,
I do not. Think about how many weekly nets require you to do more
than give your call, name and indicate if you have comments or an
announcement. Very few! How does that provide actual training? It
does not. It is only when you are required to convey the maximum
information, using the fewest words, consistently, that your
communication skills are expanded.
Hams, in general, tend to talk rather than communicate. It is only
when you force yourself to summarize your thoughts and present that
summary in a clear and efficient manner that you actually progress as a
communicator.
"WE ALWAYS GOT THE JOB DONE":
While "we always got the job done" MAY be true, let's look at two
versions of how that can happen. Scenario: You have a brain tumor that
multiple doctors agree completely will kill within three months if
it is not removed very soon. Doctor A removes the tumor and after
the recovery time you live but have constant pain, need help to move
around the house, have trouble forming words, and are constantly
confused. Compare that with Doctor B who removes the tumor and after
minimal recovery time you have no pain, think more clearly than you
have in years, move about better than you have since you were a teen,
and generally feel better then ever.
In both cases the doctor could easily say "we got the job done"
because you lived, but which doctor would you want to have doing the
operation? Clearly the second example, but why? Simply because he
provided the service that produced the best possible results, not
the minimum acceptable, but rather the maximum positive results.
EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS:
We can no longer take the attitude of "I'll be there when I'm needed"
paired with "been there done that" because anyone that does, short
changes not only the emergency services within Amateur Radio (ARES,
RACES and SkyWarn, to name but three) but the needs of our served
agencies. We need to foster attitudes more in tune with "I'll keep my
training current, expand my knowledge AND have fun!" Then, we serve
every one's needs.
How do we go beyond "good enough"? Simply by taking the attitude of
Emergency Communication as a job we would get paid for, rather than
something we do to fill time. Like the doctors in the above example,
good enough is not really good enough. It is only when we consistently
exceed served agency expectations that we become "unpaid professionals"
and guess what? THAT is where the real fun is!
Remember, Amateur Radio is the hobby, Emergency Communications is a
commitment! Are you willing to make a commitment?
Pat Lambert, W0IPL
Colorado Section ARES
Training Manager
P.S. How many of you think we will keep the electro-magnetic spectrum
allocated to us and not have the FCC sell it, if we do not "produce"
something they find useful?
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC0VCU on May 4, 2006
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I am reminded of a conversation I had with a local person when I was stationed in Germany with the Army. Every few months, with no real notice, we would have an 'Alert.'
From talking with the local, his observation was that it looked like a bunch of kids running around to ultimately go 'beep beep' to each other.
There are very sound reasons you have alerts, and do deployments to the field. As a soldier, you never know when a political situation may escalate out of control, and you will find yourself at war. There are two ways to prepare for this eventuality.
Method one, pre-position everyone will need to be in the field, there. Everyone who needs a fox hole, digs it, and improves it, including eventually putting a concrete cover over everything, properly camoflaging it till no-one can find it, etc. The down side is that people being continuously in the field is not good for them.
Method two, regularly practice getting to your deployment point in an efficient and rapid manner. Part of this includes adding in as much of the confusion you expect to have if you are actually deployed during a wartime situation. Some of this will include waking people up at 2 or 3 in the morning without notifying them ahead of time. Part of it will be having to deal with normal "traffic" on the roadways.
In reality, it is unlikely that the political situation will break down so fast that you are actually moving under the situation being described. In most senarios that would lead up to a shooting war, you will have precoursors that will tell you 'hey, it's probably a good idea to get to your deployment point in the next couple of days.' and you will go. (as a unit.) Once there you will do all the things that are expected of a soldier preparing for battle.
That said, you still need to practice moving to your deployment point. And you want to practice it with as many potential failures as you can immagine, so that when the reality comes down the pike, you are prepared to handle failures, even unexpected events.
This is why pilots practice for things failing in flight simulators. Get the ability to handle problems integrated into the person who needs to handle those problems. Give that person the ability to respond appropriately, and when a situation arises that needs that ability, it will be there.
Unfortunately I was too new at the time I encountered the local person to be able to explain the logic behind what we were doing. Hey, I was a 19 year old kid who didn't much like doing alerts myself. I was still learning the skills those alerts were teaching, and the act of putting into practice the lessons being learned is rarely 'fun.'
But that's true as well for the skills and abilities Amatures need for EmComm. And it is also true that when learned, skills aquired for one type of disaster, Earthquakes as an example, may very well find handy use in another apparently unrelated or unanticipated disaster, planes being flown into buildings that incidentally destroys a major switching center for the local communications for an area that seems to be anything but local.
I happen to live in the Upper MidWest. I don't see all that many earthquakes. However the New Madrid Fault really isn't an isolated fault with nothing north of it that might shift. I don't see all that many huricanes, but I do have friends and neighbors who travle to the gulf or east coast, and who knows I may end up with them one day. I do see tornados, though not usually with the power that seem to hit Nebraska or Kansas. I also get to experience the occasional Blizard, and Ice storm. And while it seems unlikely that I will see a significant terrorist event, it may not be as unlikely as I would like.
For those of you out there who want to rag chew from home to work, and back, and perhaps check in on a net on the weekend, or something, I have not problem with that for you. Don't expect me to hold myself to the same standard you hold yourself to. No, I don't have the light bar for my car, or the push bumper, etc. I don't go chasing the fire department to every fire, or anything like that. And at the moment I am not particularly involved in SkyWarn, ARES, or RACES. That doesn't mean that I never will be so involved however.
So enjoy your use of the radio waves, and I'll do my best to enjoy my hobby as well, and hopefully never need the skills that I am working towards having.
73,
-Rusty - kc0vcu
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'? Become an EmComm monk
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by KC7JDS on May 4, 2006
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I don't have the time or money to put into EmComm, the way the author's article reads. Heck, between work and family committments, I barely have time to sleep and grab an occasional QSO.
So for all of you who have the time, money and desire to become an EmComm monk, secluding yourself from the rest of the world and doing nothing else but EmComm practice...... go for it.
As for me, I have a life to lead and a family to finish raising.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K5LXP on May 4, 2006
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It would seem then, by the tone of this article that you're either 100% or 0%. That there's no place for someone that cannot devote every effort for ongoing training, purchasing and maintaining necessary equipment and being available to deploy when called.
Is there a place in emcomm for the 'average' ham that is interested in playing a part but doesn't have time or resources for a 2nd, unpaid career?
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WY3X on May 4, 2006
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>We can no longer take the attitude of "I'll be there >when I'm needed" paired with "been there done that" >because anyone that does, short changes not only the >emergency services within Amateur Radio (ARES, RACES >and SkyWarn, to name but three) but the needs of our >served agencies. We need to foster attitudes more in >tune with "I'll keep my training current, expand my >knowledge AND have fun!" Then, we serve every one's needs.
Attitudes like this is why I've disenfranchised myself from emcomms. I'm a volunteer. Take me as I am, or don't bother me. I have more important things to do with my life than take classes all the time to keep up with your expectations of what I should be.
As a 25 year emergency services veteran, one of my retirement benefits is NOT having to take classes all the darned time. The first time I'm "carded" at the door of the EOC and asked to show proof of some class I've failed to sit in on is the last time my hand will touch the doorknob. I'm not an unreasonable person, but I'm not willing to take orientation-level classes every year that rehash the same stuff but use different acronyms. If the class was something truly evolutionary, something that I couldn't survive in the system without, I could see sitting in on it. Maintaining a working radio system and handing the microphone over to a government employee so that he/she can speak to his/her peers at the other end of the radio circuit, then identifying using your callsign at the end of his/her conversation doesn't require a degree in incident command policies and procedures (now NIMS, another needless acronym change). And our committment ends there.
Skywarn is an entirely different matter, and DOES require semi-frequent training because we're constantly learning new things about weather patterns.
I serve every one "is" needs just fine, thank you very much. -KR4WM
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W3LK on May 4, 2006
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Pat:
<< Remember, Amateur Radio is the hobby, Emergency Communications is a commitment! Are you willing to make a commitment? >>
I agree with this statement, however we all need to remember that not every ham (in fact the vast majority of hams) does not "eat, live and breathe" disaster communications and response as you and many others do. It does not interest them and you are not going to get them motivated to join in.
I am a full time regional disaster response director for one of the major served agencies and I can tell you that, even though all our professional personnel can be called upon and be expected to do disaster response, many of them (1) don't care for it, (2) do a poor job of it and (3) are better off left at home, keeping the home fires burning, so to speak.
With volunteers, there comes a point when, after a constant bombardment of training, motivation and exortation to do good, they simply are overwhelmed and walk away. Even the pros get tired and have to step away for a while.
I am afraid the almost constant barrage of postings implying that real hams do EMCOMM and if you don't you are somewhat lacking in your committment to amateur radio, many folks are simply going to say "I don't need this hassle; I have enough in my life already." I know you are not saying this directly, but reading this article and others and the postings on the EMCOMM forum, this is the impression being given.
To paraphrase the last part of Deuteronomy 8:3 "... a ham doth not live by EMCOMM along, but by contesting, DXing, ragchewing and everything else that proceedeth out of the microphone or the key." :)
73,
Lon W3LK
Baltimore, Maryland
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC5TTL on May 4, 2006
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I miss the days of the Code vs. No Code debates...
I guess with the onset of Hurrican season we are going to have to suffer through continuous articles on EMCOMM ...
Here's my take though...
Yes EMCOM is important.
Unfortunately what we as Hams bring to the fight now are only good at local levels.
The US Govt and State Govts not only do not need or want us within their networks, but shun us when we show up.
So now we are only useful at the local levels - and that’s fine - helping our own community, that’s what its suppose to be about.
But the problems with your article is that either you are 1000% EMCOM focused or don't bother showing up.
Us discussing EMCOM is like trying to make food decisions for a party your neighbor is having that you’re not invited to.
Most of these EMCOMM discussions remind me of the ugly girls in High School that talked about for months what they were going to wear to the Prom and never got invited.
We can talk about EMCOMM to we are blue in the face - we can all agree on what the best course of action is – we can all agree that “WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS HAMS ARE THERE” - we can have EMCOMM certification classes to the cows come home -- but -- and its a big BUT -- but -- if no one asks us to help then all we have done is taken up people's time.
The only people that are willing to have hams help are local. Stop talking about supporting State and Federal contingency operations - never will happen.
And finally – when you do volunteer and are asked to hand out food or blankets – don’t through a tantrum and cry that “You’re a Communicator not a towel boy!!”… Just help where you can, when you can… and don’t feel that every bile movement you do or message you pass should get the praise and adulations of the local and national press.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K0BG on May 4, 2006
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Pat, it's nice to hear from you, and that FEX is now a thing of the past!
My personal reluctance of not getting involved with emergency communications has very little to do with any lack of equipment, or training. My reason is more of a political one.
It has been my observation that the folks who are pushing this new-wave of justification for amateur radio's presents in the emergency support arena are doing so for their own gain and recognition. Sort of a one man show routine.
I don't like the pushiness (I'm trying to be polite here so I won't use the term egocentric), nor do I like the holier than thou attitude. Some of this from amateurs who do not have any where near the experience or longevity of the amateurs they are trying to lead. This scenario is quite obviously not universal, but it certainly is in these parts.
I'd like to think it is just my advancing age, and my lack of ability to tolerate ignorance. It isn't, if my inbox is any indication.
Besides the technical training (message handling, etc., not electronic), leadership training is an absolute must, and that is NOT being done. While your personal credentials are not suspect (unless they have changed since I first met you some years back), it doesn't take much looking around to see the problem at hand.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AD5TD on May 4, 2006
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<<<I am afraid the almost constant barrage of postings implying that real hams do EMCOMM and if you don't you are somewhat lacking in your committment to amateur radio, many folks are simply going to say "I don't need this hassle; I have enough in my life already." I know you are not saying this directly, but reading this article and others and the postings on the EMCOMM forum, this is the impression being given.>>>
No truer statement was ever written. All I ask of my group, do what you can, when you can. Take care of your family first and then when they are safe, come help us.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W5ESE on May 4, 2006
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I enjoy participating in ARES and NTS activities,
and have the basic competence to generate, send,
and copy formal written messages in ARRL standard
format on the back of a piece of junk mail.
I am thankful that in my area, a balanced perspective
on public service communications still prevails.
To wit (from http://ctxhams.org/hca.htm):
The Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES) consists
of licensed amateur radio operators nationwide who
have voluntarily registered their qualifications
and equipment for communications duty in the public
service when disaster strikes.
Hays County ARES is the local disaster communications
group representing ARES in Hays County, Texas and
is led by the Emergency Coordinator (EC). The EC is
appointed by the Section Manager (SM) of the ARRL
South Texas Section, based on the recommendation of
the Section Emergency Coordinator (SEC).
The only requirements for membership in this group
are:
* An FCC Technician class amateur license or
higher
* An interest in emergency communications
* A willingness to serve the agencies supported
by ARES in a selfless and professional manner
The possession of emergency-powered, portable and/or
mobile VHF and HF communications equipment is
desirable, but is not a requirement for membership.
Membership in the Amateur Radio Relay League (ARRL)
is not a requirement for membership in ARES at the local level.
Residency in Hays County is not a requirement,
however amateurs who have active ARES groups in
their home counties are encouraged to participate
in their local program.
Scott
W5ESE
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WIRELESS on May 4, 2006
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When are all of you "we are going to save humanity with my hf radio" going to hear what the government is saying which is "we don't want you"!!!
If the government wanted people with hf radios to save the world, they would buy their own and pass them out to those they wanted to have them. They don't need you.
You can't make people want you.
What I can't figure out is why hams who need to save everybody can't find something to do without working with the government. The government doesn't want you but you don't need the government either.
It seems delivering welfare traffic is something hams like to do. So, do it. Why do you need the government.
There are a zillion people on this planet that are also hams that could make an asp.net app that lists info about people by various look up searches. The info can be sent via radio, phone, or internet to the admins that can add info to an sql database behind a asp.net front end. This could help many to know the status of others via any computer on the web.
This would actually take work and I don't think all these hams that think they want to volunteer will actually do much when it comes time to do it. I think hams like to talk about it more than do anything.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AB9LZ on May 4, 2006
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WIRELESS:
..."When are all of you "we are going to save humanity with my hf radio" going to hear what the government is saying which is "we don't want you"!!!
If the government wanted people with hf radios to save the world, they would buy their own and pass them out to those they wanted to have them."...
The "government" doesn't have to buy them (the radio's) because you and I do. That's part of the charter of the "amateur service" and why the FCC bothers to license and regulate us. All the more power to the folks out there that want to uphold this part of the deal that we have with the "government". That said, folks should get a tax break for particpating in EMCOMM activities.
73/ Mark
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC5TTL on May 4, 2006
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WIRELESS ..
I agree with you so therefore I will get slammed -- LOL
Here is the quandary no one seems to grasp...
ARRL and all these EMCOMM groups publishes ad nauseam lists of what they consider makes you EMCOMM certified. In my area there are EMCOMM classes taught by the local ARRL chapter and ARES folks.
BUT - NO WHERE - HAS THE US OR STATE GOVTs PUBLISHED ONE SINGLE THING THAT SAYS THESE ARE THE COURSES YOU NEED IN ORDER TO THEIR DISATER COMMS NETWORKS.
Therefore - it is my opinion that since the Federal and State govts have never said what it takes to be certified they do NOT need nor want you. In fact - its getting to the point that you are in the way.
Help the Local Red Cross and Salvation Army - but stop showing up at the FEMA Communication site with your radios and expected to run their Network Operation Center.
But once again - let me beat the dead horse for anyone that missed my earlier point -- its ARRL and ARES saying what THEY and not any GOVT agency considers requirement to be EMCOM certified.
Katrina gave Ham radio a black eye – all the hype of “When all else fails Ham radio is there” simply did not materialize to the degree that our previous hype had made everyone believe. I feel that the next major Hurricane will be the end of the Ham radio as a SERVICE and forever regulate it to a Hobby which it is already for 99% of us.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AA4PB on May 4, 2006
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When are all of you "we are going to save humanity with my hf radio" going to hear what the government is saying which is "we don't want you"!!!
------------------------------------------------------
Wireless, you might want to do a little reading before making your comments. Here's what one "government" person had to say:
"If it hadn't been for the amateur radio operators," Gen. Joe Spraggins, Harrison County EOC director, has said, "we wouldn't have had communications with other agencies. ... Ham radio saved the day."
Second, I didn't see anything in the subject article that indicated we should use only HF radio - did you? HF has its place, as does VHF and UHF. One benefit to HF is that one can set up a low NVIS dipole and communicate over distances that would require a very high antenna support to do it with VHF or UHF. One the other hand, when the distances are not needed or you have the antenna facilities or you can set up a portable repeater then use VHF/UHF.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W3LK on May 4, 2006
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< < Katrina gave Ham radio a black eye – all the hype of “When all else fails Ham radio is there” simply did not materialize to the degree that our previous hype had made everyone believe. >>
This statement is NOT supported by the various reports to and by Congress. All of them have been very complimentary of amateur radio's response to the Katrina and Rita disasters.
I suggest you read them before making such an blanket statement which it little more than your personal opinion unsupprted by any facts.
I am not saying the response was perfect. Far from it, but it was much more effective than you would lead us to believe.
73,
Lon - W3LK
Baltimore, Maryland
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W0IPL on May 4, 2006
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Lon...
"I agree with this statement, however we all need to remember that not
every ham (in fact the vast majority of hams) does not "eat, live and
breathe" disaster communications and response as you and many others do.
It does not interest them and you are not going to get them motivated to
join in."
Excellent point. While it does seem that I expect significant commitment
from - all - hams, I am actually looking to get a few that are ready to
commit to actual training (can be handled in hours rather than days) and
to regularly (once a month, or so) spend half a day keeping skills sharp.
The other side of that is don't tell me "I'll be ready when you need me"
when, in fact, you have no skills or experience and do not even know which
team is available, much less how to function with them.
ECom does not need hordes of operators. It does need skilled operators.
Just because you can work a pile-up doesn't mean you can handle an
emergency net. It means you can handle a pile-up. They are different and
the skills are different. Do you know what an ICS-213 is? Can you handle
content properly? Do you know who your ECom group is (the one in your area)?
Who would you volunteer with if there was an emergency significant enough
to need your help? NO served agency wants people that just show up!
These are but a VERY few of the items that anyone prepared to actually help
in an emergency NEEDS to know and this is not even the "tip of the
ice-burg".
KC5TTL
"Stop talking about supporting State and Federal contingency
operations - never will happen."
Sorry but I disagree a bit, based on what happened in the Hayman fire
(Colorado a few years back, 133K acres). We were involved with FEMA and
several other national organizations. The significant item is that FEMA
will and does throw you out unless you have specific training. Do we all
need that training? Not only no, but NO-WAY (attempting to remain within
guidelines there ;-) only those that "will be there when you need me".
KR4WM
"Attitudes like this is why I've disenfranchised myself from emcomms.
I'm a volunteer. Take me as I am, or don't bother me. I have more
important things to do with my life than take classes all the time to
keep up with your expectations of what I should be."
As noted above, most served agencies will tell you to not let the screen
door hit you on the way out. This is not picking up scraps of paper or
sweeping the floor. Emergency communications require training. How much
and how often is up to the individual. That is part of the decision YOU
must make when you say "I'll be ready when you need me." If you are ready
then wonderful! THANK YOU! If you decline training then please stay out
of the way.
"Skywarn is an entirely different matter, and DOES require semi-frequent
training because we're constantly learning new things about weather
patterns."
Humm, you need training but you don't need training. OKFine.
K0BG
Hello Alan, yes, FEX is a thing of the past :-)
"Besides the technical training (message handling, etc., not electronic),
leadership training is an absolute must, and that is NOT being done.
While your personal credentials are not suspect (unless they have changed
since I first met you some years back), it doesn't take much looking
around to see the problem at hand."
BINGO! That is one of the largest problems within ARES and RACES! Far too
many of the ECs and ROs are in that position because they were the last to
sit down at the meeting that appointed them OR (even worse) are on an
ego trip. The latter are a significant problem that is best addressed in
another thread.
C Ya
Pat
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC5TTL on May 4, 2006
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AB9LZ
The "government" doesn't have to buy them (the radio's) because you and I do. That's part of the charter of the "amateur service" and why the FCC bothers to license and regulate us....That said, folks should get a tax break for particpating in EMCOMM activities.
---
Thats like saying that the government doesn't need to buy the National Guard any weapons becuase the citizens already has them !!!
The US Govt nor STATE Govt just does not need your HF radio any longer. They need for you to work local comms from the shelters. Not much glory in that so thats why hams don't like to do that.
Most of these EMCOMM guys just can't let go of the fact that our govt, especially in the last year, has learned from past mistakes and have devleoped systems that are basically reliable.
And as for TAX BREAKS -- if we are not giving the soldiers, police, fireman, Coast Guard, or the true professionals any breaks why should we give YOU????
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WI7B on May 4, 2006
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But WIRELESS makes a good point. For anyone who does have knowledge of planned development on government frequencies it involves and depends heavily on VHF-UHF/Sat/GPS co-ordinated systems, remote bases, high tower and high site digipeaters. Such is the nature of "Rescue 21", the USCG's sequenced replacement for Marine VHF-Ch16 and Marine SSB 2182 KHz emergency channels. And where it is being implemented (Northeast seaboard) it has proved extremely effective in locating and identifiying vessels in distress (within minutes) without necessitating traditional search area protocols.
These are highly-dependency systems. The strengths of amateur radio operators (as always) is their initiative, highly independent character, and familiarity with HF/VHF/UHF propagation and modes of operation. Amateur radio is not chartered to MIMIC other govenrment agencies' communication capabilities.
Personally, I wasn't even a licensed ham in the early 70s, so I have no idea what this clearly older ham (W0IPL) is talking about when he refers to that time period. But I find it the poorest kind of "horse game" (sorry, its a Western phrase) by presenting a carrot...
"Remember, Amateur Radio is the hobby, Emergency Communications is a commitment! Are you willing to make a commitment?"
then offering only a stick...
"P.S. How many of you think we will keep the electro-magnetic spectrum allocated to us and not have the FCC sell it, if we do not "produce" something they find useful?"
Horses aren't stupid, neither are hams. I don't believe this "P.S" is the position of the ARES. Is it? So one speaking as an official of ARES ("Colorado Section ARES Training Manager") should be careful as to what he represents.
And, sorry again, I'm tired of reading plebum like, "We need to understand and conform to the Incident Command System (ICS) and the follow-on National Incident Management System (NIMS)." What does that generaility mean?
I WORK under ICS every year. Not train, not practice...WORK UNDER. ICS is a concrete structure. So if you talk ICS, talk concretes application. Do not wave around the terms "ICS and NIMS" like abstract banners of conformity with a holier than thou attitude. Remember, th first hard-earned payment for the lessons on which ICS was formulated were the lives of firefighters in our national forests.
73,
---* Ken
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KI4LXB on May 4, 2006
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The thing that finally convinced me to get my technician's license was Katrina, believe it or not. It seemed like having the tools and skills at-hand to communicate in an emergency just made good sense.
Now that I've got my ticket, I'm looking at all the EMCOMM types and I'm left scratching my head. It seems that if one wants to be an "emergency communicator" or whatever you want to call yourself, then you should get a job with an agency that deals with such issues. Even better, you can make a life of it -- most communities have opportunities for EMTs, police officers, and firefighter types, though I'll admit it'll take some work and dedication to get there.
Another board I frequent recently had this exchange posted in a thread about potential emergencies (in this case the avian flu):
>>Folks, I spent a fair amount of time working for
>>the federal government. Let me tell it to you
>>straight: The bureaucratic mind praises order and
>>control, and it fears initiative and judgment. And
>>those who enjoy controlling gravitate toward such
>>work.
>>
>>What they call "chaos" is in reality a situation
>>they cannot control. It doesn't mean that you or I
>>aren't in control of our lives, it just means that
>>the government isn't in control of everyone's
>>lives in the affected area.
>>
>>You have to read between the lines. It isn't
>>malicious, nefarious, or conspiratorial on their part;
>>it's just the way bureaucrats think.
>>
>>Just look at Katrina. FEMA's response was focused
>>more on control than actual help. I read reports from
>>acquaintances down there, and FEMA seemed less
>>concerned about actually doing anything effective and
>>more concerned about volunteers showing them up.
>
>Well put. I realized that when details of Katrina's
>aftermath came out: the first thing FEMA et al did was
>not ensure that food/water/etc. was getting in, the
>first thing they did was make sure they were they were
>the pervasive authority approving anything being done.
>
>Someone has a truckload of MREs to give away in
>devestated areas? it ain't goin' nowhere until there's
>a bureaucrat at the intended distribution point
>monitoring & approving the distribution, and a chain
>of bureaucrats running back to the parking lot where
>the truck is idling until every bureaucrat networked
>in has signed off their approval.
>
>There's a parking lot full of buses ready to go as the
>storm bears down? nothin' goes nowhere until each one
>has an approved, unioned driver at the wheel with a
>bureaucrat-approved travel plan filed and every
>passenger documented properly.
>Someone decides the moral thing to do is get those
>buses loaded & moving, or that truckful of MREs
>delivered, regardless of approval by the bureaucratic
>network? bring in the uniformed enforcers - can't have
>anything happen without proper approval ... and
>requiring that approval will be enforced at the barrel
>of a gun.
It phrased in a rather direct and emotional way, but I've got to say I agree -- this explains the reports we heard about WalMart convoys full of potable water being turned back, local volunteers being ignored or worse (threatened/discouraged), and so on. It seems like a significant amount of the actual help that went on happened *in spite of* FEMA, rather than because of it.
So, I've got to say I'm a bit distressed by all this talk of "served agencies" and their needs. Why not focus on the needs of those in the area, rather than the needs of the agencies that are supposed to be helping things (and have budgets to get their own radios, anyway)?
Training is good and all (and it's on my to-do list), but if a disaster strikes in *my* area then I hope my focus will be on aiding those who are actually making a difference, rather than on the traditional "served agencies."
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AB2MH on May 4, 2006
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I have a problem with the issue of treating emcomm like a full time job.
And that is, that I already have a full time job and ham radio is a hobby.
Now mind you, I do understand the need for taking emcomm seriously, but to me there is such a thing as taking emcomm too seriously.
I also do appreciate the fact that the FCC expects us to work for our frequencies, but I don't think emcomm should be the mainstay of the hobby.
Years ago when I first learned about the hobby in detail (in 1990) I was taught by my elmer that we already practice for emergencies by our daily ham radio activities and public service events. And I agree with that 100%.
The problem has been, however, that many hams are now not really taking active part in the hobby in general, especially public service events and emcomm is going to suffer.
So what do we do? While training with served agencies is important it should be supplemented by other things. I already did a bunch of FEMA courses, Red Cross courses and I did EC-001 and I'm currently doing EC-002. I also did skywarn training a couple of days ago too.
However, when a call is made for hams to volunteer for public service events, few show up, and there has to be a lot of begging and multiple reminders by EC's and AEC's. For some reason not a lot of people show up. I liked pubic service events because I could get out of the house and play radio. It is also VERY good practice for emcomm. Public service events bring hams together and allow us to interact with real non-hams, the kind of people who we will meet in an activation. Sitting in a classroom or studying online doesn't really do that.
Drills are nice, training is nice, but we have to have regular activities. Those happen with a lot more frequency and it is a lot more FUN to do public service events than it is to fall asleep in a classroom or study on line.
The hobby should be FUN more than anything else, don't you agree?
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WB2WIK on May 4, 2006
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Remember, in the film, "Independence Day," it was ham radio operators using CW who actually saved the planet from annihilation.
Proof positive that this stuff is important! :-)
WB2WIK/6
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WA1RNE on May 4, 2006
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Part of the overall problem with using amateurs is the attitude of some, and in my experience, the gung-ho ARES groups.
The '70's practices you refer to - which is not likely to be the rule with all emergency Management groups - are not the issue, and neither is message formating - the subject of a recent diatribe on eHam, nor the save-all Incident Command System (ICS) and National Incident Management System (NIMS).
Pushing WinLink to your local or state Emergency Management, Fire, or Police officials isn't going to turn the tide either and will likely cause you some embarassment. Why?? Because not one person has been able to come up with ANY proof or justification whatsoever that "Amateur Email" is the savior of any emergency communications plan.
I do agree with the last sentence of your article and will take it another step further:
If you want to go beyond good enough, start with simply "partnering" with state and local Emergency Managers and FEMA. With the exception of the first few paragraphs of chapter 6, put away the "ARRL-ARES PSCM "holy grail" of Emcomm and learn the best ways to enhance and fit into your present state and local emergency communications structure.
Otherwise, all the training in the world is going to make you look more like a nuisance than an asset.
73, WA1RNE
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AB9LZ on May 4, 2006
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KC5TTL
"Most of these EMCOMM guys just can't let go of the fact that our govt, especially in the last year, has learned from past mistakes and have devleoped systems that are basically reliable."
Really? Where? Do you have a link to a site that explains this? I'd like to see it. Would you bet your communities welfare on a government claim?
I've seen the FEMA like ineptitude first hand, its appaling.
No doubt, HF radio is no longer useful as a daily communication tool. It requires a fair amount of skill to reliably pass a long distance message... it is no longer cost effective for the government to build, man and maintain these systems when there are cheaper and superior alternatives to manage a majority of thier daily workload. Channelized vhf radios, the Internet and various other nethods (i.e. cell phones) serve thier puposes perfectly, until there is a general infrastructure dispruption.
It's in thier best interest to subsidize the private sector organization of a (very expensive) communications network that will serve them well during these unfortunate, and hopefully very infrequent disruptions.
I agree, the armed forces should get significant tax breaks for hazardous duty. I get stupid tax breaks for things that do little or nothing to serve the interest of the general public, but seem only to serve the interests of certain corporations....
73 / Mark.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by N7NVP on May 4, 2006
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Pat,
I agree with 99% of what you said but strongly disagree that our served agencies have a reasonable expectation that "our people are accustomed to functioning well with law enforcement, fire, Forest Service, FEMA and relief organizations." If that expectation were reasonable Amateur Radio would be included in a high percentage of multi-agency exercises that are conducted by the aforementioned agencies.
Of the agencies mentioned, fire is the only one that seems willing to train with Amateur Radio on anything that approaches a regular basis. When was the last time the Forest Service held a multi-agency exercise? Did it include Amateur Radio? When were we included before that?
The Red Cross is only marginally better.
Law enforcement in most jurisdictions won't consider using Amateur Radio for a supplementary communications asset for anything other than SAR. We are having a major exercise in the Puget Sound area that involves local fire, LE, SWAT, State DOT, a major port facility, FBI, ICE, several area hospitals, US Navy, US Army, USCG, USCG Aux, CAP, State EMA, County/city EMA, etc. The organization running the exercise proposed an EMP event (yes it is a terrorist oriented exercise) that would require reliance on Amateur Radio for a portion of the exercise but it got nixed. The only involvement Amateur Radio has is with the hospitals. The State EMA station will be up to support the medical effort. I find this typical.
I have been involved in many federally mandated exercises (nuclear plants, chemical stockpile, etc.) and the only requirement they levy for Amateur Radio is to establish contact with the State EOC. Even when the exercise calls for the passing of traffic it is a token, let's see if the circuit really works, message and if the path is solid even that message is done away with.
FEMA? What Amateur Radio team has experience with FEMA unless it was in a full blown disaster? FEMA won't even let their DMORT or NDMS teams carry personal communications other than cell phones. Ham gear, FRS and GMRS, etc are all verboten and will be confiscated if found.
Local and state emergency management understands the importance of exercises, networking and interagency cooperation but they don't seem to be able to get the other agencies to recognize the folly of not exercising for the loss of communications infrastructure. So how can our served agencies expect us to "function well" with the agencies that we know will show up at the disaster when they won't exercise with us? As much as I agree we need ICS/NIMS training that will not get us to the "function well" level we need to be at.
For the record; last year I gave a PowerPoint presentation to the "State Agency Liaison" committee of my state EMA. It was at their request. Not a single one of the attendees visited the radio shack (across the hall) or made any attempt to contact me for further information or to arrange for Ham support of their agency.
73,
Ed, N7NVP
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W3LK on May 4, 2006
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LXB:
<<The thing that finally convinced me to get my technician's license was Katrina, believe it or not. It seemed like having the tools and skills at-hand to communicate in an emergency just made good sense. Now that I've got my ticket, I'm looking at all the EMCOMM types and I'm left scratching my head.>>
Ah yes, another brand new ham who is an instant expert in emergency communications.
<< So, I've got to say I'm a bit distressed by all this talk of "served agencies" and their needs. Why not focus on the needs of those in the area, rather than the needs of the agencies that are supposed to be helping things (and have budgets to get their own radios, anyway)? >>
Without the served agencies, the vast majority of the amateur radio emergency communications simply wouldn't need to exist. The served agancies, both government and NGO, are the ones delivering direct assistance to the effected victims. Can you, for examply, as a ham, provide a $100,000.00 mobile kitchen with the staff and logistics needed to feed 10,000 meals a day? Can you do it for months on end? I seriously doubt it. but the served NGOs CAN and DO this, several times over. My agency had over 120 vehicles with food preparation and service capacity ranging from a thousand meals a day to 14 thousand means a day. We finally shut down that part of our response just five weeks ago. That means we kept it up, to one degree or another, for over seven months! Can you, as a ham, do that for one day?
And yes, we needed and USED hams because we don't have the budget for a massive, dedicated internal radio system. Ours is built almost entirely on amateur, as are the rest of the big NGOs.
Our Health and Welfare network handled over 60,000 inquiries on missing family members with 40 percent of the folks located; all of that handled by volunteers and hams.
With all due respect, you need to learn a little more about the major served agencies before you start passing judgement on what they need or don't need and how amateur radio fits into the scheme of things. The agencies provide the service - you help provide the communications.
73,
Lon - W3LK
Baltimore, Maryland
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W9OY on May 4, 2006
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I'm all set
Got me a K-1 a code key and some wire and a fully charged 12V battery
Good Enough
73 W9OY
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W3LK on May 4, 2006
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Sorry for the typos - newbie know-it-alls get under my skin. :)
73,
Lon - W3LK
Baltimore, Maryland
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KE7CFA on May 4, 2006
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"Our served agencies now reasonably expect us to adapt and evolve to accommodate and overcome new challenges."
Those "served agencies" have, constantly, failed to perform. The Ham's that have chosen this servitude, IMHO, are more prepared to serve 'them', than 'they' are prepared to provide anything to the public.
The best way I can provide "service to the public", is at the local level. Since the "served agencies" have failed at this, I'll do what I can.
To do this, I'll get training. I will practise the best way I can. I will not waste my time (and money) providing bureaucrats with the means to enhance their incompetence. I am, however, having trouble finding anything, set up, that actually provides a genuine service to the public.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by N5IKG on May 4, 2006
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The doctor in charge of the ICU at Charity Hospital in New Orleans was asked if Katrina happened all over again what would have helped him the most. His reply was a satellite phone during the three days he was cut off from all communications and taking care of respirator patients. Wish there had been an amateur operator there to help him. In this world so dependent on our technology and thus vulnerable to technology malfunction, amateur radio, our hobby, may be the only fail safe communications available in a disaster. This is important.
Tom Taylor
N5IKG
Corrales, New Mexico
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by N5IKG on May 4, 2006
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PS The Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio net (SATERN) meets at 8am MST at 14.265 Mon-Sat
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W0IPL on May 4, 2006
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Ed, N7NVP
It sounds like you have defined the "Catch-22" in ARES and RACES. We cannot
work well with them unless they use us and they will not use us unless we
work well with them. How do we fix this? If I knew I would be selling my
time to the ARRL and FEMA (plus a gob of others) for a very large sum of
money.
The only way I have seen is quite inefficient (amount of time vs benefit)
but has proven to work, IF you have good leadership. Maintain contact
with your served agencies and slowly establish, by example, how we can be
of use to their operation. Does it take a lot of time? YES. Is it very
frustrating? YES. But I am open to any better ideas.
- - - - -
Back to the main point in the thread: Nothing in emergency communication
is going to provide gratification for the instant-gratification types. It
takes time and effort. MUCH more time and effort than memorizing a few
facts to get a license. Do you have that much time? I have it on good
authority that each of us that lives to the end of the day had precisely
the same amount of time. It is only in how we choose to spend the time
that differs. If you choose to spend your time on your job, family and
then the hobby, no one will find fault with that. If I choose to spend two
hours per day on ECom why would anyone find fault with me? We each make
our own choices and I believe that each of us has made the correct choice,
no matter what that choice is.
My main objection is some one that insists that "I'll be there when you
need me." when, in fact, they understand so little about the subject and
obviously know so little about being ready.
Ham radio is a great hobby because it is so diversified. Even after decades
in the hobby there are still HUGE amounts of the hobby you have not even
looked at. As such, please then don't tell me you will be ready when you
are needed when you have not even gotten a reasonable definition of ready.
Pat
Lon - typo - :-) ;-) :-)
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KI4LXB on May 4, 2006
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>Ah yes, another brand new ham who is an instant
>expert in emergency communications.
Good. You know you've gotten under someone's skin when they start with the attacks. :)
>Can you, for examply, as a ham, provide a $100,000.00
>mobile kitchen with the staff and logistics needed to
>feed 10,000 meals a day? Can you do it for months on
>end? I seriously doubt it. but the served NGOs CAN
>and DO this, several times over.
I'm not arguing this. My father-in-law's been a "white hat" (if I remember correctly -- the coordinator dude) at a number of sites served by Baptist relief. I've got a fair idea of what these organizations do, and I've got no issue with those who volunteer with these organizations.
Nothing I said above was an attack on these groups, nor was I implying they don't do a competent, appreciated, and necessary job.
>With all due respect, you need to learn a little
>more about the major served agencies before you
>start passing judgement on what they need or don't
>need and how amateur radio fits into the scheme of things.
My response was directed to the majority of these posts that seem to equate "served agencies" with FEMA and other governmental orgs helping out after a disaster. Odds are your group is one that handles its own training, or at least offers clear guidelines to your members. Do y'all require your volunteers be ICS/NIMS trained? Whether you do or not is an internal issue, and not one that really relates to this article.
Sorry you thought I was pointing at you.
Having said that, and admittedly this will come as something of an "outsider's perspective," there really does seem like there ought to be a role for amateur radio in a disaster other than supporting "major served agencies."
You're welcome to disagree, of course.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KX8N on May 4, 2006
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"Remember, in the film, "Independence Day," it was ham radio operators using CW who actually saved the planet from annihilation.
Proof positive that this stuff is important! :-)
WB2WIK/6 "
I'll revise my ARES info to read "Only available in the event of alien attack".
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC5TTL on May 4, 2006
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Ed, N7NVP
"It sounds like you have defined the "Catch-22" in ARES and RACES. We cannot work well with them unless they use us and they will not use us unless we work well with them. How do we fix this?"
YOU DON'T!!!
NO ONE IS ASKING US FOR ANYTHING!!!
Thats the point everyone is making. We keep argiung about what to wear to the prom when we aren't beign asked to attend.
I am proud that our govt does not have to rely on Amateurs that may or many not be there in times of emrgencies.
I sleep better at night knowing that my govt, with all its faults, has the ability to do things better then a group of amateurs with HTs on their belt.
But the one thing that we CAN do better then the govt is provide local assistance to our own neighbor. We can work the shelters. We can volunteer to help the Refugee centers and Soup Kitchens, and if by chance we can use our radios to help that is an even bigger bonus.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by G0GQK on May 4, 2006
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Might I add a comment ? The FCC would be unable to sell any of the frequencies which are used by radio amateurs, because they are used by everyone else in the world 24 hours every day. Perhaps those who live in the United States ought, at some time, to consider that there are other radio amateurs spread throughout the world and that the hobby is not an American monopoly.
Mel G0GQK
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W0IPL on May 4, 2006
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G0GQK
You make an excellent point, about frequencies below 30MHz. You may have forgotten about the 2MHz at 220MHz that was sold off about fifteen years ago (might have been twenty now). I'm certain that did not affect your side of the pond but it did affect us. That 2MHz is almost equal to all of the spectrum available to US hams between 1.8 (160M) and 24.990 MHz (top of 12 Meters). It is in the 144MHz to 450MHz that sales are likely and that could have a direct effect on about half of the US hams (admittedly a small 300,000 people).
You are absolutely correct on HF frequencies.
Cheers
Pat
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by NN6EE on May 4, 2006
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Mel,
You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!
Also my American goverment seem to assume "we're" (as a free nation?) always right in whatever situation!!!
That's what is wrong with MY country, WE collectively "Have our fingers in WAY TOO MANY foreign pies and we're paying for our arrogance DEARLY!!!
Cheerio OB!!!
Jim/ee
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WA1RNE on May 4, 2006
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Mel;
The shortwave broadcasters from Europe who consistently transmit over amateurs in the 40 meter band don't seem to have gotten that message......hmmmmnn???
73, Chris
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KX8N on May 4, 2006
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"NO ONE IS ASKING US FOR ANYTHING!!!
Thats the point everyone is making. We keep argiung about what to wear to the prom when we aren't beign asked to attend. "
Whether or not we are being asked depends on the situation. We've been asked before in my county. We had a big flood, and local comm methods weren't enough. The local radio club stayed active for three days, 24 hours a day.
It's kind of like a fire extinguisher - no, you don't set it out on a table and dress it up in frilly things to be adored. Usually it's tucked inside a closet. But you sure thank God you have it when there's a fire.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by NN6EE on May 4, 2006
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Chris,
The situation that you had mentioned concerning "Overseas Broadcasters" INCLUDING OUR OWN "VOA" will have to be vacating 40m quite soon as/per ITU agreement!!!
As a "NOVICE/5wpm" class operator in 1962 I had a helluva time trying to work anybody anywhere on 7.150 up to 7.199mhz. (xtal cntrl/75w. max!!!) because it was "wall-to-wall" QRM even from VOA!!!
Jim/ee
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K1CJS on May 4, 2006
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I thought this was just discussed in this forum a couple of articles ago. Darn! Oh, well....I think................Zzzzzzzzzzzz.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W1DUD on May 4, 2006
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"Most of these EMCOMM discussions remind me of the ugly girls in High School that talked about for months what they were going to wear to the Prom and never got invited. "...LMAO!!!!! "73" THE DUD
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KA4HWX on May 4, 2006
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>The US Govt and State Govts not only do not need or want us within their networks, but shun us when we show up<
This is what our local officials feel like. I was told by the EMA Director that "I will never need you. Our system will never go down."
So, we will sit on the sidelines and will laugh when they have no communications. Hopefully, some of the hams will be able to help out.
I won't hold my breath.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WB4OMM on May 4, 2006
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OK folks, I read all these the time, but don't reply. But this post has garnered my "attention".
Several years back, I wrote an OpEd for QST regarding ham "Attitudes and Opinions" - from the ham perceptions and what I see from the "other side". Most have statements similar to those in this post. My article was simply to make the general ham population aware of what the "government" perception was, and believe me, it is not like many in our hobby think. In a nutshell, our attitude of "no one can do without us in an emergency" is not true, and our self -appointed "expertise" is inflated. We, like any other group of folks, are not indispensable. However, we do provide help when it is needed most - at the onset of an emergency, until the commercial and public safety systems get back online. And the point I was trying to make (just like now) was clear and simple - our "expertise" and "need" is the ability to do for ourselves (communications equipment and setup wise) and then support our communites when nothing else works. And since we shine in this venue, that's where were most valued. Andrew, Katrina, Charley, Frances, Ivan, Wilma - the 1998 wildfires, just to name some recent events here in Florida - hams were valued and served well in multiple, extended roles. An no volunteer was ever turned awy.
After the article was published, I got slammed from a variety of sources - all taking the stand that "we're not wanted is bogus and the world cannot live without us. We need to be professionallly trained, certified, et al". That's not the point. We are wanted, when were needed; and yes, while formal training is always desirable and helpful, I'll take any ham that has nothing more than the "desire and is available" to help. License class or how long licensed does not matter, not does "technical expertise". If it's there, great! If not, we'll make do.
We all have a place in an emergency, if we are available, and can volunteer. If we're "trained", great - it helps; if we're experienced, great - it helps; if we can volunteer at the local Red Cross, EOC, Salvation Army, whatever - great, it helps. But I know of no organization or public service agency (government or private) that will ever blindly turn away any kind of volunteer that shows up to help, particularly if you have a Ham License, portable equipment, and are willing to help.
Just my 10 cents worth.
Oh, and my "credentials", just in case.....(yeah, I got a few "titles" too....)
Police Captain - 30+ years experience; Master's Degree.
Ham since 1971 - Extra Class License for many, many years - VE, OO for many years. I do contests and rag chew. Teach License classes. Do CW, SSB, HF, VHF, ATV, Packet, PSK31, and whatever else strikes my fancy for a while. I have DXCC (290), WAS, WAC, ad nausaem.
CERT Director, CERT Ham Radio Club President - local club trustee (multiple clubs), president, every club office for over 20 years. I do some hamfests.
City Emergency Management Coordinator - EOC Director, 10+ years - wildfires, hurricanes, tornados, HAZMAT - you name it, I've been there, and wrote the critiques and after action reports.
Teach at FEMA's National Emergency Management Institute.
Certified Florida Professional Emergency Manager (FEPA).
ARRL, QCWA life member.
And I just recently signed up for one of the ARRL ARECC courses (and paid for it my self).
Folks, I think I've seen both sides of the coin. Let's quit forcing our opinions on each other.
Steve Szabo
WB4OMM
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K4RAF on May 4, 2006
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No one seems to get it, we ARE the ugly (aged/bearded/overweight) girl HOPING to go to the prom. Instead of actually going, we go to Chucky Cheese, dutch... It is getting worse everyday, older, uglier, lonlier...
You ever hear of the "100 Year Storm"? Even with total devastation, we had limited "utility". You wouldn't know it reading the web & ARRL reports. Everything is happy faces in amateur written stories.
Get over it. We are not the world's radio police nor are we the first responders. Accept reality in 2006...
=-=-=
DUD, please report to the net frequency...
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W6WBJ on May 4, 2006
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Would you ECOMM types please just SHUT UP for awhile? It's painfully obvious that you're pushing your agenda because you feel inadequate, and doing ECOMM stuff makes you feel better about yourselves. The rest of us don't want to hear about it! We've had too many bad experiences with people like you, and we don't want any more of them. Victimize somebody else! Boss somebody else around! I never signed any contract with the government promising to do any ECOMM when I got my license and, based on past experiences with you ECOMM types, I'll never do it again. Would you just let the subject rest for awhile? Get a life!
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Come what may .............
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by AI2IA on May 4, 2006
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There will always be those who are ready.
There will always be those who will rise to the
occasion.
It is good to prepare.
It is foolish to over prepare. It will contribute nothing.
It is good to work to keep things as simple as possible.
It is valuable to learn what you can about the people who will work with you.
It is valuable to let others learn about you.
There will always be the clowns and self-hating hams, naysayers, doomsayers, wise guys and nuts. Forget them.
If you are cautious and prepare youself for possibilities you would otherwise wish to avoid, you will be among those who are ready.
To say more than this is a waste of time and effort.
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RE: Come what may .............
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by KC5TTL on May 4, 2006
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N5IKG
"In this world so dependent on technology and thus vulnerable to technology malfunction, amateur radio may be the only fail safe communications available in a disaster."
--
You lost me -- so you are saying that your radio has no technology or uses no technology???
WOW - its a fricking magic radio ... the same ones that some of the EMCOMM guys here used durng Katrina to save the world ... LOL
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RE: Come what may .............
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by K5LXP on May 4, 2006
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Steve Szabo WB4OMM wrote:
> I'll take any ham that has nothing more than
> the "desire and is available" to help.
Question: What about the Sept 30 cutoff date for having NIMS/ICS certification by county and state entities? From what I've been led to believe, anyone without the basic ICS course certificates will not be permitted at any incident. In my state, this order was signed by the governor, and has something to do with being eligible for federal grant money. I think if faced with the prospect of sending the hams home in exchange for a check from the feds, most agencies won't think twice.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AE6RF on May 4, 2006
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I debated back and forth about replying to this one.
But here goes.
Frankly I don't care _what_ classes you've had and _what_ paper is on your wall or in your pocket.
If you've got face time and a good relationship with your served agency you will get used. If not, not.
That's it. End of story.
If your served agency requires specific classes and you've a good relationship, you've already taken them or had them waived.
If you're a convergent volunteer coming in from out of area, that paper will maybe get you the benefit of the doubt.
I don't think any professional EmComm type is going to let you be shift supervisor (or whatever) based solely on your paper achievements and verbally communicated "past glories."
If you're not a convergent volunteer, then the group that you're with can provide bona-fides. And again, it falls back on that group's relationship witht the served agency.
Frankly, the energy being expended arguing about this is far better spent developing those served agency relationships.
My two cents worth and I'm sticking with it.
73 de Donald
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AA4PB on May 5, 2006
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You lost me -- so you are saying that your radio has no technology or uses no technology???
----------------------------------------------------
Come on now - you know what he means. Most amateur equipment can function independent of any infrastucture.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by N5PVL on May 5, 2006
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What is "good enough" is whatever and whoever is available at the time of an emergency. Anything is always better than nothing.
All this talk about only a few specially trained people being "good enough" in an emergency is idiotic in the extreme. - Sooner of later it will end up costing innocent lives by discouraging the untrained majority of amateurs from doing what they can in a real emergency.
There is certainly nothing wrong with amateurs training to be more effective in emergencies but the fact is that most places do not experience emergency conditions often enough to maintain interest in long-term, repetitive training.
The only reason we are seeing the emergence of all this ECOMM fascism is the existence of DHS grant money. Somebody wants to be a big fish in a little pond so that the grant money will pass through thier fingers in the hopes that some of it will stick there.
The only way that can be arrainged is if they can convince thier fellow hams to march in lock-step and look down on the majority of thier fellow hams for not participating.
Thus the rather stupid inference that only group-trained amateurs are "good enough" in an emergency.
What these morons really want amateurs to be "good enough" for is to draw in some of that grant money.
They will of course claim the highest motivations while doing so, but that doesn't change what they are.
Charles Brabham, N5PVL
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N5PVL hits the nail on the head!
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by AI2IA on May 5, 2006
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I have read many, many, many posts on eHam.net, but never have I read one so truthful, so much capturing the real spirit of amateur radio, and so important for every ham to really think about and make that viewpoint and attitude his own than the post by N5PVL!
Charles, you really said it all. You got the American spirit and the amateur "can do" point of view beautifully combined. This is the way to go.
We the people, by the grace of God, free and independent.
Thank you, Charles, for an excellent post.
Ray Mullin, AI2IA
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by NA4IT on May 5, 2006
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Well, here is my take on EMCOMM...pay attention.
I got back into amateur radio (first licensed in 1976, relicensed in 1999) to serve my fellow man, to accomplish something I started to do in 1976, and to enjoy a great hobby. Skywarn was what got me "back on the hook" per se.
Over the last few years, I became a District Representative for E TN Skywarn, and was one of those who got to bring the "yep it works" or "woodshed it" ideas to the NWS. And I have enjoyed doing it. E TN has one of the best Skywarn operations in the US. And all of the training I had to have for SKYWARN was free of charge. I'm still active in SKYWARN today.
Then I got into RACES. Locally, our RACES group helps out with a nuclear facility plan because our county takes in those who might have to evacuate. I was also involved in the plan in it's infancy as a bus driver. Any and all training that was required to participate, as a bus driver, or as a ham, was free of charge. I'm still active in RACES, serving as to the abilities I have when called.
And then I got into ARES and became an EC. For a good while, ARES training amounted to programs put on at club meetings, and research of books, EMCOMM plans from served agencies, or the internet. And then came ARRL EMCOMM Courses. And guess what...they are not free.
This really bothers me. As you can tell from this post, I have absolutely no problem with required, free of charge training. Training is good. It keeps all of us on the same page. But, all of the sudden, a lot of ARES groups are requiring ARRL EMCOMM I, II, and III, which cost.
Now let's put this in perspective...when I take a mental inventory of the amateur equipment I own and might use during EMCOMM response, I have an investment of somewhere between $200 and $2000 depending on what communications are required. I gladly let my equipment be used for EMCOMM purposes. And then I provide a human body with a brain to operate that equipment I own, and that body to me is pretty priceless, because if it quits, or get tron up, or destroyed, I can't get another one.
And the equipment doesn't include 4 voice repeaters, an APRS digipeater, a club base station for almost all bands / modes, and an EMCOMM trailer, all which our club bought and paid for with no help from "Homeland Security".
And the ARES folks want me to pay for "required training"?
I have seen about 5 different "suggestions" from government agencies of what training they would "like" for amateurs to have, and all of it is the free of charge ICS and NIMS courses. And I have a few of them under my belt, 100, 195, 700, 800, working on 200, and will probably take more, because it is good knowledge. And why am I taking them?
Oh I forgot to mention, I am disabled. I have resigned from ARES, because I felt our local group needed someone able bodied to respond. But, I hope that if someone has a need for emergency communications, and I can help out here from the home station, I would be "allowed" to help. Our local group is not the one requiring the training. The requirement is from higher up...
Until the time the ARRL, ARES, or who ever it is makes training free of charge for amateurs who "give all", I WILL KEEP HARPING AND HARPING AND HARPING on this subject. Training that is required should be provided free of charge, period.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by NA4IT on May 5, 2006
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A couple of folks have hit on a good point, one that cannot be stressed enough...
Amateur radio operators (as well as govenment officials) need to get it in their head that they SERVE THE PUBLIC CITIZENS, not the government.
I believe if amateur radio would focus on serving the citizens in their area, and not the served agency, we could all get more done.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AA4PB on May 5, 2006
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How do hams serve the public without working with various agencies? Here I am with my ham rig. I can get a message from point A to point B for you but I don't have any water, food, medicine, clothing, or housing to provide you with. I guess when you die I can get a health and welfare message to your family.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by NL7W on May 5, 2006
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N5PVL said:
"The only reason we are seeing the emergence of all this ECOMM fascism is the existence of DHS grant money. Somebody wants to be a big fish in a little pond so that the grant money will pass through their fingers in the hopes that some of it will stick there."
I say:
Sure... any org, be private, corp., or non-profit, can legitimize keeping a certain percentage of the grant monies awarded. Federal laws allow for certain expenses such project employee wages and fringe benefits, office space, supplies, equipment costs, etc. Grant monies can help pay for or offset employee costs.
I should know, I garnered a $300,000 DoJ Interoperable Communications Technology Grant for the corp. I worked for recently. All of these factors, and more, were figured into the grant project costs. These grants can only help orgs such as the ARRL.
All of this emcomm related training is well and good. I commend those that expend great effort and loads of time. But, many of us working stiffs, especially those of us with families and children, cannot find or fit course after course and on-going training activities into our hectic lives. Amateur radio is a hobby; emcomm service is also a part-time endeavor or avocation. That being said, enjoy the training, learning, and doing aspects related to emcomm and amateur radio. When it isn't satisfying anymore, move on to something else - for there are certainly more than the few percentage points of bad apples in amateur related emcomm positions around the country.
Oh, if emcomm isn't for you, take of another amateur radio operations challenge - CW or SSB contesting!
73 de NL7W
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Good enough for the Forefathers!
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by AI2IA on May 5, 2006
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In my book, my American History book, each able bodied man and woman provides for the themselves and those in need in their immediate area. There are no five year plans for harvests and distribution. The subjects of a collectivist state when they are hit with a disaster sit and wait for some thing they call the government to come and feed them and take care of them. Can you figure out what happens to them?
When emergency communications is provided by hams, it should be ham to ham and not bureaucrat to bureaucrat by means of ham subjects.
Did anyone learn anything after New Orleans and Katrina?
It is not that everyone can do something. It is that everyone must do something.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by N6AJR on May 5, 2006
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here is another thought that you have all missed.
When you are in a "situation" and are needed as a races, ares, satern, etc helper, there is more required of you than sitting at a radio 24/7.
You might have to help haul supplies, or load trucks, or hand out t shirts, along with "radio duties. "
I feel that if you are traveling to a disaster area, you should have enough food, water, blankets and fuel to sustain you self for about a week. other wise you become a part of the problem.
and perhaps even some protection... lets say you are driving down the road to New Orleans in your truck with all the antennas,a generator in back, a couple of solar panels and a trailer to sleep in . you stop to talk to a family trying to get out of the area on foot, because their house is under water, their car is floating in the bay, and all they have is on their backs, would I be suprized if the Dad, pulls you out of your car , smacks you with a stick and steals your car, trailer and radios.. he is just taking care of his family.. and you loose.
folks just because we mean well does not mean everything will be peachy kean.
folks die in disasters, and lose loved ones and get desperate. this is real life, not a ares excersize. People , including YOU can die..
Real life can be painful.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by G3RZP on May 5, 2006
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Just occasionally, we might like to remember that ham radio is not just emergency comms. Sure, it's fine when hams can offer that, but it isn't, and shouldn't be, the prime reason for ham radio.
So when there isn't an emergency, the situation (which we can and do have in the UK) where someone is told 'You can't use this frequency, it's for emergency communications' when there's no emergency just isn't on.
Personally, I feel that people who get ham licences just to be emergency communicators not only don't deserve them, but shouldn't have them. Remember that bit from the 'Amateurs Code' - the amateur is balanced?
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AI2IA on May 5, 2006
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Personally, I feel that people who get ham licences just to be emergency communicators not only don't deserve them, but shouldn't have them. Remember that bit from the 'Amateurs Code' - the amateur is balanced?
G3RZP makes a point well worth considering here. Admittedly there is an overlap between what we may call professional emergency communicators and amateur radio operators when emergencies arise. It takes a good deal of presence of mind for both of these types to not go over board. Some can maintain this balance and some cannot. I can longer operate along side the professional types. Too many years of association with these people under differing conditions have gotten to me. Yet, I respect those who can do it. Nevertheless the ordinary ham can respond magnificently in an emergency by rising to the occasion. Thanks G3RZP for reminding us about balance.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K9EKG on May 5, 2006
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"Our served agencies now reasonably expect us to adapt and evolve to accommodate and overcome new challenges."
Those "served agencies" have, constantly, failed to perform. The Ham's that have chosen this servitude, IMHO, are more prepared to serve 'them', than 'they' are prepared to provide anything to the public.
The best way I can provide "service to the public", is at the local level. Since the "served agencies" have failed at this, I'll do what I can.
To do this, I'll get training. I will practise the best way I can. I will not waste my time (and money) providing bureaucrats with the means to enhance their incompetence. I am, however, having trouble finding anything, set up, that actually provides a genuine service to the public.
------------------------------------------------------
This kind of attitude is what kills public safety and amateur radio interaction. As a fire chief and emergency manager with 18 years of experience, I find this statement disgusting and further solidifies the only ham in my scenes will be me.
Chris
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WR8D on May 5, 2006
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Amen Lon W3LK, my feelings exactly. My repeater system has a automatic generator that kicks in when the power goes out. All i have to do is keep the fuel tank topped off. Theirs more to life and certainly amateur radio than sitting around on some stupid net listening to some inform you of their important status. I hate to say it like that but i'm just a shoot from the hip kind of hillbilly. If and when some emergency happens here the redcross and uncle sam knows where to find a few of us. They always have in the past, always will in the future too. All the county services will go down just like they always do, they don't have or care to put in a generator. Some of us have handled tons of traffic through differant mars services etc and are very well qualified to get the job done. Don't need a pat on the back either to keep doing it. Well i'll get off my soap box now, and go work some cw, or maybe psk31. 73 John WR8D
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KE7CFA on May 5, 2006
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K9EKG says:
"This kind of attitude is what kills public safety and amateur radio interaction. As a fire chief and emergency manager with 18 years of experience, I find this statement disgusting and further solidifies the only ham in my scenes will be me.
Chris "
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Well Sir..... You may find it 'disgusting' and you can be as disgusted as you want (don't really matter), but I didn't see you deny any of it.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC8VWM on May 5, 2006
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Rule #1 in emergency services:
"Never diss the "Chief"
Everyone wants to be a superhero. So what else is new...
Curious... Has anyone in this forum actually ever had the glamorous experience of smelling burning human flesh before?
How about the uplifting experience of a trauma victim who just had their lower torso ripped off their body and is now staring directly right at you with wide eyes open as they are dying right in front of you?
..Yup, shift is over, now just go home - eat dinner and speak simple pleasantries with the family in the usual fashion two hours later like nothing ever happened.
...Has anyone here ever tried to do that before?
Emcomm is a "system" and as such it is only a guideline to follow. There is another great big picture outside of this mere concept when it all really comes down the wire.
Sorry folks but Emcomm can never prepare you for the human reality that takes place in the real world. There is a thing called the "Human Condition" that seems to take place.
Don't just take my word for it. Ask anyone who has ever participated in "real world" public emergency services and I can assure you it is far from "glamorous" or exciting work.
It's not just for anyone and it takes a special individual to "cope" My observation over the years of working in an ER and on the street is that people behave much differently when subjected to these conditions.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC8VWM on May 5, 2006
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"Our served agencies now reasonably expect us to adapt and evolve to accommodate and overcome new challenges."
---------
Challenges huh?... good luck with that.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Come what may .............
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by N5IKG on May 6, 2006
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The example i gave was clear enuf. You left it out of your comment.
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RE: Come what may .............
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by W0IPL on May 6, 2006
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"Challenges huh?... good luck with that.
Charles - KC8VWM"
Indeed challenges. The major challenge is to overcome the lousy attitude
of many hams. First the challenge of the ham that "will be there when you
need me" when he has no idea what he has just committed to. Then the
challenge of the guy that actually shows up (the majority are too busy
with their Great Aunt Gertie's hang nail), wearing his tank-top,
flip-flops and shorts. These are the type that WILL whine and yes, even
scream that they are capable of a more "challenging" assignment. Then
the challenge of the guy that claims he can run an "emergency" net when
his experience is limited to one weekly ARES/RACES net. He will also
whine and scream about how he can handle a more "challenging" assignment.
Then there are the clowns that do not even understand what a tactical
call is, much less how to use one. Then is the (almost) worst. The rag
chew types. You know, the idiots that comment on EVERY message and have
no clue of what summarize means (they use about one hundred words to
express what can be said in one short sentence).
Challenges indeed challenges.
K9EKG
"This kind of attitude is what kills public safety and amateur radio
interaction. As a fire chief and emergency manager with 18 years of
experience, I find this statement disgusting and further solidifies
the only ham in my scenes will be me."
Unfortunately I understand what you mean. I just hope that you are never
faced with having to put up with some of the attitudes and ineptitude
displayed by a few in this thread.
SEVERAL
You say that I do this to be able to keep some of the national grant
money from DHS. HOW DO I GET THAT MONEY?! I have not seen one penny.
- - - -
Many have said that I and others of my commitment level are fanatics.
What ever you say. I happen to spend about an hour, twice per month
on an HF digital net because I enjoy that portion of the hobby. Out of
all of Colorado (admittedly only about 20,000 hams) there are about a
dozen that do this. Why? Because we enjoy learning new techniques and
continue to stretch our knowledge and experience. GEE! That almost
sounds like experimentation! Humm, isn't experimentation one of the
potential joys of Amateur Radio? That's the way I understand it.
Overall, I spend less time in ECom each week then you do watching TV.
I contend that my time is better spent.
- - - -
I believe that most everything has been covered. If you choose to
whine and cary-on, your option. I see no reason to go further.
Some support much of what I have said, some do not. That's life.
Some have proven one of the major problems in Amateur Radio, there
are people that are quite out-spoken to try and cover their actual
attitude of "My mind is made up! Don't confuse me with facts!!"
I wish you all well.
Pat
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KILOWATT on May 6, 2006
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Well, it's just a hobby to me. If ever there's a disaster where my little portable QRP/CW station can be of use....I'll be more than glad to help out. Frankly, I don't see where it would be of much use at all and I'm not about to invest tens of thousands of dollars into gear "just in case".
Besides; I'm not all that impressed with these emergency preparedness gurus that strut around in their little orange vests with their HT's strapped to their waists and their mics proudly displayed on their shoulder like some kind of cop wannabe. It's actually quite embarrassing to the rest of us. Please stop it! I think most of these guys must have been hall monitors back in their school days.
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RE: Come what may .............
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by KILOWATT on May 6, 2006
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Steve Szabo WB4OMM wrote:
> I'll take any ham that has nothing more than
> the "desire and is available" to help.
Question: What about the Sept 30 cutoff date for having NIMS/ICS certification by county and state entities? From what I've been led to believe, anyone without the basic ICS course certificates will not be permitted at any incident. In my state, this order was signed by the governor, and has something to do with being eligible for federal grant money. I think if faced with the prospect of sending the hams home in exchange for a check from the feds, most agencies won't think twice.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
___________________________________
NIMS/ICS training? hihi! Now that's a joke!!!
As a government employee, I'm required to take that training. Got the little plastic cards in my wallet to vouch for my CERTIFICATION.
Know what those classes were all about? Teaching you "who's in charge" during a disaster. Yeah. I've got my training and certification to know who can urinate the furthest in the big pissing contest.
Give me a break. This EMCOMM crap is nothing more than self-important, self-righteous nobodies that want to project their self-importance to everyone else so they can feel like a somebody and I'm not impressed in the least.
Ham radio is a hobby. Yes, we should help out when we can but public service isn't the primary function of our hobby. Having fun with radio is our primary function.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AB7JK on May 6, 2006
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I say let the whole thing fall apart. Things are broke beyond keeping together. Anyone don't think it's broke beyond repair? What the world NEEDS is a good cataclism.
The fittist will survive (I'm ready to take the test and likely fail) with a new understanding and purpose, we'll get rid of the IRS, and no more stupid Starbucks. Back to simplex.
Go Osama, pump it up Israel, get those nukes ready Connie...have a CVA George while trying to figure out how to give voting rights to illegals...elect Hillary that will do it...
The rest of you go gnash your teeth. Yeah YOU!
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W5HTW on May 6, 2006
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All of the comments in this thread, and the thread itself, can be summed in in a single sentence:
Be there when needed, go away when not.
It's that simple. As a 16 year old Novice I was suddenly called upon to run a 2 meter AM net, with an unfamiliar rig (Gooney Box) during a serious flood. I had NO IDEA what I was doing. But some of the others out there in the mobiles did. And we got through it.
After we got through, not ONE of us dashed to the tv stations, radio stations or newspapers and begged for a pat on the back. Instead, we went back to normal ham radio - I was on 40 cw with two crystals in the Novice band. We were needed, we were there. Once not needed, we were gone.
We do have a certain contingent in ECOM today who, if they hear of a car accident, or a fire, they jump into their vehicle and roar off to the scene, HT's armed and dangerous. And suddenly the local EM is saying "let's leave the hams out of this exercise." Well, I sure understand that.
I'm DEC for my county. I volunteer. But I am another who does not "eat, sleep, breathe and bury myself" in EMCOM. I play ham radio. Yeah, I monitor our local public safety channels, but that's just for fun. If I and my ARES team are needed, I will be called by the Emergency Manager. Until then, I am a hobbyist.
As DEC so I need to know about NIMS, ICS, and all that stuff? NO! I am not going to be a boss. I'm going to be (can you still say this?) an Indian, not a chief. I am not there to take over. Let the paid emergency team be the Incident Command. I don't need to know all that stuff because I will be obeying commands, not creating them.
I don't need badges, handcuffs, light bars, uniforms, sirens or MACE. All I need is my radio and someone to tell me what to do. Sure, as DEC I can tell my ARES members what I need, but I can't make commands.
Training? I have to know how to copy down a message and then send it on. I have to know how to put up a little antenna. How to program my radio to the proper ham repeaters in the area. I don't need fire, police or paramedic training. I'm not there to be a big shot.
And I'm not there at all if I'm not called out!
Be there when needed, be gone when not.
Ed
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC5TTL on May 6, 2006
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W5HTW
"Be there when needed, go away when not."
--
actually should probably read:
"Be there if asked to be - if not directly asked -- stay out of the way"
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WR8D on May 7, 2006
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Thats it in a nut shell Ed. This is a hobby and sure we all help out and have had to from time to time in an emergency. Some though enjoy nets and it matters not if its an emergency type or just a plain ole ragchew type. This is "their" idea of what amateur radio is supposed to be. Thats all they do and figure everyone should be just like them. Take 60 meters for an example. With just a few little channels there's a group tieing up one of them for a practice emergency net on a regular basis. With all the freq's available these guys have to plunk themselves down right in the middle of a new band with limited access for the world to make themselves feel good and "look" important. Like you said when not needed "stay" away. Amateur radio has multiple modes enjoy them, make new friends world wide. Don't put a prop on your hat and have five ht's on your belt and a little jacket with fancy patches on it, and then go bug the police department. They'll laugh their ass off at you after you leave. They will come to us though when their crap stops working. Always have, always will. I saw a big huey land in a buddies yard and drop him off a set of new 500Z's. He'd burned a set out passing traffic for them during a flood here years ago. Lets just all have fun like it used to be till we're needed. 73 WR8D
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by W7WIK on May 7, 2006
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Black or white, all or nothing? Few of us have the time to dedicate 100 percent of our free time to EMCOMM. The vast majority of us, like others have stated, have a life other than ham radio. I do my part for ARES and help out wherever I can and try to stay prepared for the (probably) unlikely event they need us. I don't have a lot of money at this point in my life (back in school), but I keep my gear reasonably up to date... as long as I can also use it for my personal ham radio activities!
As an AEC I know that there are only a few people who have the gear, skill, and time to dedicate their lives to ARES pursuits. Those people are extremely valuable to an organization like ARES. But you CANNOT expect the average ham to buy the latest and greatest gear every couple years, attend all the exercises, or be completely up to date in ARRL EMCOMM training. It won’t happen… This is a VOLUNTEER organization and you cannot expect volunteers to act as paid employees. Some will step up and do all of those things, and I commend them for that. But most don’t have the interest or time to dedicate this kind of time and effort.
In every emergency and exercise I’ve been in, the most used medium to get a message across is voice FM on the 2 meter band. Almost all hams have this equipment and can effectively do this (yes, there are some who can’t). It’s nice to have other capabilities, but how much will they be used? And can you realistically expect the average ham to be an expert in packet, pactor email, have an effective HF station, etc. etc? No way. Every ARES organization should have, or be striving to attain, these capabilities, but the average ham cannot be expected to “know it all or do it all.” If I were a perspective ARES volunteer and read your blurb, I would probably change my plans. You’ll scare people off if you expect them to jump in with both feet and dedicate all their free time to ARES. You can’t treat volunteers like paid employees.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WHATURNUTS2 on May 7, 2006
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Remember, in the film, "Independence Day," it was ham radio operators using CW who actually saved the planet from annihilation.
Proof positive that this stuff is important! :-)
WB2WIK/6
Lots of Laughs
Reality and fiction are two things I am begining to think hams today are having problems with.
Fact: FEMA is being replaced by HOMELAND SECURITY
FACT: ARRL SAYS they are the leadership of ham raido (well kinda)
FACT: ARRL is in it for the money.
Ok so how come the ARRL hasn't come out with DVD's or CD's on EMCOMM training. Where is the leadership that they claim? Where is the FCC publication in prepairing us hams for what were supposed to do according to some.
I mean I can hear the ching-ching going off their is money to be made here folks. Think about it. From all the bashing that has gone on what better way to train the ham than have the Hams, HAM leadership do it. After all why should the ARRL take a back seat in making their mark and a lot of money.
Why should the Red Cross and others be charging for training. For crying out loud your a radio operator (HAM). So why should a non-ham orginization train you to work your radio? Its like the Air Force training a Navy dog to run a ship!!!
This set of 10 CD's will take the no-nothing ham and make him into one mean spark flying EMCOMM guru. The final two CD's contain all the test info you will need from learning how to drive a car with lights flashing to how to dealing with disgruntal public. CD No. 4 is the emergency simulation trainer where random radio calls come in while the EOC is talking to you. Can you handle the stress and the operation. This test takes 36 hours so no resting now. And finally what happens when everyting quits. CD No. 9 covers how to use light signals from your flashlight or flags when you stand on top of that fire station to signal the world. Taken right from the old 1939 Boy Scout handbook, you will find this method practical when all else fails.
total price of the new course from the ARRL $69.99, postage and handling charges will be applied. Contact the publications manager for shipping address and payment. And, If you hurry right now, they will send you two courses, Yes thats right, not one but two! one for you and one for your buddy, for only $99.95. Yes thats right you can get two of them so you and your friend can doubble team up and be ready for the next disaster anywhere in the world. This course is acceptable for credit from FEMA, HOMOLAND SECURITY, FCC, ATC, FAA, CIA, FBI, Red Crosses, Red Shield, Blue Shield Kaiser plan and all the others. It is COAST GUARD APPROVED. Optional National Guard enlistment form also included for you gun-ho types. Sorry non-refundable once you open the package that is sealed in plastic waist paper.
It appears that what we have here is the ones which want reconigition. Most real hams respond on the spur of the moment and know what they need to do without the goverments help (which most of the time it doesn't know what it should do either) sort of the blind leading the blind?? If todays ham is a real person (not a movie actor) after the tornadio has torn the town up and the wires are down, he knows what to do and jumps in and does it. No training needed, batteries included.
K8MHZ I see you fit in on this one too? Still claiming to be a RN/truck driver? LOL
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by N2WEC on May 7, 2006
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Well lets see; I am an RN with advanced medical skills (30 years), I was a Soldier in the United Stated Army for ten years, I was a Volunteer Fireman (25 years), I was an EMT/Paramedic (15 years)and I am an Amateur Radio Operator for 5 years. All my other qualifications involved the use of "emergency radio" or simple radio communications. The County requires Nurses to take the NIMS courses and the State suggests it for their Nurses. I am ready to answer the call if it be back in Uniform or as John Q. Citizen. If the writer expects more he is in need of serious help. At most he needs more of a life. Most of us, be it male or female have some kind of useful background. Don't get pushy. People need to raise families and live normal lives. Running around like "Chicken Little" or being Paranoid is no way to live let alone be prepaired for an emergency. Common sense needs to be the guide. Live and give in balance is how it should be. Please lets drop the paranoia.
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If you get called back, N2EWC...
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by WA4MJF on May 7, 2006
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A neighbor down the street who
is a retired COL, ANC was called back for
the Gulf Coast disaster. She stopped by
to get some .45 ACP Ball and extra mags,
because she was gonna take her 1911A1 instead of
getting the little ole M-9 they use now.
So if you do get recalled, take your
own, 'cause otherwise all you'll get
will be a peashooter.
She returned all 100 rounds and the
5 extra magazines I loaned her, as things
didn't get too bad in her AO in LA.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: If you get called back, N2EWC...
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by KC5TTL on May 7, 2006
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WA4MJF
You're not all there are you???
1. I would take the accuracy of a 9mm over a .45 any day of the week.
2. It is against FEDERAL law for a soldier to carry any other weapon then that which is issued to him/her by their unit.
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RE: If you get called back, N2EWC...
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by WA4MJF on May 7, 2006
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Yeh, the M9 is so great that
the Army is going back to the
.45 ACP. Although, in typical
guvment fashion, they're going
through a long and expensive
development procedure instead of
cleaning the cosmoline off all
the 1911A1s they already have.
I carry a 1911A1 day in
and day out. A weapon is only as
accurate as the shooter.
I don't know of any such law,
I carried personal weapons
in the 'Nam. I had my .38
S&W I brought with me and
liberated a M3A1 (a lot lighter
and less complicated than the
M1A1 and has the same punch) that I
carried all the time. Didn't
really have a lotta use for the M-16.
The .38 was a hide away. I
did carry my gov't issue 1911A1
and had the bonus that same ammo
worked in pistol and greaser.
The law of land war states the type
round (FMJ), not what you fire it
from.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KE7CFA on May 7, 2006
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WHATURNUTS2 - ROLFLMAO!!!!!!
You forgot the CD that tells you how to hire a consultant, to do your thinking for you. Then there is the one that tells you how to fill out all the forms. Wouldn't want all those emergency supplies, that are stockpiled, to go to the wrong place. Nothing worse than a convoy of Depends going to where people need food and water.
Do I see 'guns' being discussed? I'll take a 1911....or 2
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RE: If you get called back, N2EWC...
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by AB0WR on May 7, 2006
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kc5ttl:
1. I would take the accuracy of a 9mm over a .45 any day of the week.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
According to the old fart who taught me about pistols in combat, an target *accurate* weapon was a killer - it would kill the guy who carried it. Target accuracy implies tight tolerances. Tight tolerances mean gummed up works in a sidearm right when you need it the most.
He swore by his S&W 38 and his 1911. Said you could dunk'em in quicksand and they would still work when you needed them. That's what I still have 30 years later. If you can't hit a human body with a 1911 at combat ranges (7feet to 7 yards) you'll not hit them with a 9mm either.
tim ab0wr
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RE: If you get called back, N2EWC...
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by KC8VWM on May 7, 2006
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You better be careful, you can take an eye out with that thing...
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RE: If you get called back, N2EWC...
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by KC5TTL on May 7, 2006
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And there lies the problem...
Everything with allot of you guys goes back to how it workd in Nam 40 yeARS AGO ...
hell I wasn't even born...
Are there no hams here that are under 80 yrs old???
And yes there is a law that says that you can't bring whatever weapon you want to war with you.
You Nam guys did what you were told to do -- and that is honorable and God bless you for that -- but for God sake - stop basing everything on somthing that workd 40 years ago.
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RE: If you get called back, N2EWC...
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by KE7CFA on May 7, 2006
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Don't let fashion (or politics) get in the way of the facts.......
The 9mm Luger/Parabellum (9x19mm) has been one of the most popular pistol and submachine gun cartridges in the world, originally developed in 1902 for what became the German Army P-08 9mm Luger.
Although over a century old, its recent popularity makes it seem like a newer cartridge than the .45 ACP.
It was in 1904, the Frankford Arsenal and commercial manufacturers were asked by the U.S. Government to develop a .45 caliber pistol cartridge. Winchester and Colt, working together, developed a response released in 1905 as the ".45 Automatic Colt" matched to a new Colt pistol chambered for the cartridge.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KF4VGX on May 7, 2006
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I must say that there are quite a few good points made in the post here.
Some of whom I have disagreed with in the past.
Credit due credit given.
Remember one thing, Use what is available to you when lives are in danger, anything at your disposal.
"ANY THING "
There's not a one of us that would deny anyone " Help " if lives depended on it. We're amateurs that can and do make a difference by doing this !
Thats not debatable , its human nature.
Its that very reason that amateurs stand out in the community " You CARE ", you made the effort to show that.
Where lies the human need for survival, stands a human being willing to help.
Amateurs will be there ,I'm sure.
If we have time to better educate ourselves then by all means do so.
" Education is the facts in communications"
If not then do what you can ,if called upon.
If we save a life ,thats all the credit we need .
Thats a great satisfaction in knowing that person is alive today because of you !
Think about that for a minute !
" JUST BECAUSE OF YOU "
What we should realize is that we are helping , just at different levels.
Wanted , Indians , plenty chief's.
73
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K2PI on May 7, 2006
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I truly am tired of this over-emphasis on training and practice for Emergency Communications. Much of it seems to revolve around doing things (like directing traffic) that is better left to experts, and not a bunch of cop wannabees who like to dress up and play at being in charge. We get these jobs because they are unwanted by everyone else, and I've seen the sniggers as they sit back and watch us sweat for zero compensation. I wish you Emcomm types needed to clean houses or wash cars for "practice". I'd have you over every weekend.
It's truly embarrasing...have you seen yourselves? Some of you even have fake "badges" and belts full of gear. On a true Cop, Firemen, or Emergency responder, this looks like the work uniform of authority. On some obese, sweating Ham, it's just plain silly.
I have no problem with being there to help in a disaster, and lest you think I haven't the foggiest, I've been in 5 coup d'etats, a 7.9 earthquake and one of the largest volcanic eruptions in the last 200 years. I know what it's like.
However, this hobby ceases to be fun in any way when it becomes pure public service or training for public service as the primary activity. I would rather it died a noble death than be populated by NCT's dressed in reflective jackets with ARRL logos.
73.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by NA4IT on May 8, 2006
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One poster wrote "You can�t treat volunteers like paid employees."
Even employees get free training to do their job...
We pay the ARRL to be members. They want to be the leaders. They also want to make even more money off of us by charging for "required" training. And they now train their leaders in the field to promote this so they can make money.
Any one see anything wrong here...
I think the ARRL needs a good dose of the Wouff-Hong and the Rettysnitch!
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by GRETA on May 8, 2006
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Don't let fashion (or politics) get in the way of the facts.......
The 9mm Luger/Parabellum (9x19mm) has been one of the most popular pistol and submachine gun cartridges in the world, originally developed in 1902 for what became the German Army P-08 9mm Luger.
Although over a century old, its recent popularity makes it seem like a newer cartridge than the .45 ACP.
It was in 1904, the Frankford Arsenal and commercial manufacturers were asked by the U.S. Government to develop a .45 caliber pistol cartridge. Winchester and Colt, working together, developed a response released in 1905 as the ".45 Automatic Colt" matched to a new Colt pistol chambered for the cartridge.
maybe the Germans would not have lost the war if they used the 45 instead. I understand from some of my friends who are still stationed in the war zone that they are being given the 1911 because it doesn't jam when full of dirt and sand. Hit a dude with the 9 and he keeps on coming. Hit him with the 45 and it makes him do back flips.
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RE: If you get called
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by GRETA on May 8, 2006
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KC8VWM
You better be careful, you can take an eye out with that thing..
I heard some very distrubing things about you. Seems if someone backs you into a corner you have them removed from the web. I read what others said about you and I think its true. You are a sss hole.
Quite frankly from what Jim and the others said, that you caused to have people disapear:
you don't know what your talking about
your a fraud! (you claim to be a RN and it is proven you are not)
You spout off things that you don't back up with facts!
(such as helping the handicapped out by getting them licenses)
and quite frankly you need to get your ass kicked for what you did and do to others.
Please go away.
I have also written the mod that takes care of this board. You are not much more than crap in the toilet of life. Your true color shines through your actions towards others.
Anyone that thinks they are more important than someone else on here is mistaken. And that means you KC8VWM. Your a bastard! fraud and a whole lot more.
I don't normally spout off this way but after reading the mail and going back to read what you said you would do and didn't for that handicapped person in the other thread your despickable. When the others asked you to back up your claims, you suddenly balked and instead called them names and went running to the moderator and sought protection. What a man!! tisk! tisk!
I think I will give you a piece of my mind and let others know exactly what kind of fraud you really are.
Guys' If you disagree with KC8VWM he will have you booted from the web. He is one of them simple little minded people who THINK that they are important but, are NOT. He wants so hard to be part of the group that he will do anything. This includes stepping on others to keep his good image. However, after he spouts off how big a man he is and how great he attacks the person that is asking him to back up his words. He never does and from 3 other threads, has yet too. However, several of the people who disagreed with him, stood up and called his words that he claimed, suddenly were booted from the web. He leaves a bloody trail of good people who, I am sure will have their day and way with him. Remember what goes around comes around!!!
May I suggest that you do the same to him and shun him from all of your converstation. He is not a true ham but more a bastard simpelton wana be.
Let this be a warning to all of you, as I am sure he will be attacking me shortly for this, and I too will be booted. I really don't care about that after he pulled the crap he did. How can you carry on a converstation with someone that is a fraud and lier?
So how many people have you had booted VWM? 10,15 for calling you for your antic's least it be now known about you and your self made 'honor'
Be glad your not on the air, and I use the word bonehead from yournuts2, to describe you. If you were, the canon fire towards your direction would be tremendious; least it be known who you really are.
In the service we had ways of dealing with frauds like you. too bad the internet doesn't. It would be a better place without your lies and negative actions. As others said in the zone, GO POUND IT IN THE SAND!! BONEHEAD!!!
Greta
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RE: If you get called
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by KC8VWM on May 8, 2006
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What the hell seems to be your problem dude?
Anger management issues? Do you need counseling or what?
I can assure you if anyone's account has been suspended on this website or otherwise in the past it's their own doing not mine.
I openly invite anyone to email Mike N2MG or any of the other Mods for that matter to ask if I ever had anything thing to do with people getting banned on this website anytime in the past.
...It's your bandwidth. ...Go ahead, have fun.
As far as my experiences and formal training and education in Nursing is concerned, quite frankly I am not in a position to hand over any specific registration information, emergency nursing membership numbers, employment ID badge #'s, Student ID #'s, Nursing certificate #'s, Social Security #'s, Nigerian bank account information, or any other pertinent personally identifiable information for that matter to people on an open ham radio forum on the internet I don't even know. ...Do I need to write you a reality check?
I would like to say however, that I consider your slanderous actions, remarks, personal attacks, and explicit accusations to be an invasion of my personal privacy and they DO most likely violate forum rules.
That's just how I see things... I don't think it takes much convincing for others reading this forum to reach this same conclusion either.
I will say that if the moderators of this website do in fact decide to ban your account here because of your own actions, I suppose I would have to openly admit, that I really wouldn't be surprised. :)
In short, you would be just another victim of your own actions. You can believe me when I say it wouldn't be occurring because of any action I have done on my part.
Perhaps that is what you really want huh? You want to push me to the point of submitting a complaint to the mods huh?
Tell you what, Mike, N2MG is a big boy and I am quite sure he can visit this thread and figure you out for himself all on his own.
I don't really think the Mods on this website need any of my personal assistance to reach any conclusions regarding your recent personal attacks.
...Have a day.
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RE: If you get called
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by KC5TTL on May 8, 2006
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KC8VWM
Hows that finding those waivers to help hndicapped personnel get their licenses without having to do morse code coming along?
Still looking I guess? Sure hope you didn't get anyones hopes up. That would have been wrong to do.
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RE: If you get called
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by KC8VWM on May 8, 2006
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You seem to have a misunderstanding of what response was given for that question huh?
Well, I suppose I can quote my own response for you again so it's all crystal clear for you:
------------------------
"Secondly I would like to point out that I am also fully aware and understand that VE's are still required to accommodate handicapped individuals by utilizing various testing methods in certain circumstance today.
With that being said, let me explain that in order for an individual to be considered for any special testing, they STILL require a "waiver", (yes that's right - I did say that dirty word "waiver" again) from a qualified practitioner outlining the individuals specific psycho cognitive limitations.
The fact is, you are simply not going to get any VE to accommodate or provide you with any special testing arrangements without it. VE's are simply not qualified, nor should they be qualified, to suggest what particular method of testing will or won't work for any given medical condition. That is and always will be the function of a qualified practitioner. "
----------------------------------
Now my question to YOU is, What part of that statement did you not understand exactly?
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RE: If you get called
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by KC8VWM on May 8, 2006
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Sure hope you didn't get anyones hopes up. That would have been wrong to do.
----------------------
That sure seems like a strange twisted way of thinking.
...Mabey it's because my morale standards and personal upbringing differs from your own.
I am always more than happy to provide any individual with uplifted "hope" when such hope can and does in fact exist.
That would in my mind be considered as the right thing to do, not the wrong thing to do.
The idea here is to "exhaust" all hope before one gives up all hope.
"No Hope" on the other hand means to do nothing and all prospects of any hope have been exhausted. That means you give up and don't try anymore. To suggest that one gives up all hope is usually considered as the wrong thing to do.
In other words, it would be a shame to do nothing about something when in fact something, (regardless of how insignificant it may be) can be done to change things in a person's favor.
...Perhaps you live in a different cultural society than I do.
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RE: If you get called
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by KC5TTL on May 9, 2006
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KC8VWM
The bottom line is:
You were not able to deliver what you promised to Charles.
Ba-Bye!!
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RE: the difference is!
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by GRETA on May 9, 2006
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talk about a lose cannon! careful your gears are grinding again without the clutch being engaged.
In case you forgot to read KC* Greta is a womans name. I don't know you might be going with a dude named Greta but, check the accessories first. If there is some extra hardware in the shorts well!! You might want to have a talk with your mother about your personal preferances LOL
See the heading I am Greta Rogers can you comprehend the difference between M and FM or did your upbringing not teach you we are different?
I am sure all those others are very disapointed in you for making statements that your not keeping.
Nice not knowing you
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RE: the difference is!
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by WHATURNUTS2 on May 9, 2006
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As far as my experiences and formal training and education in Nursing is concerned,
quite frankly I am not in a position
to hand over any specific registration information,
emergency nursing membership numbers,
employment ID badge #'s, Student ID #'s, Nursing certificate #'s, Social Security #'s,
Nigerian bank account information,
or any other pertinent personally identifiable information for that matter to people on an open ham radio forum on the internet I don't even know. ...Do I need to write you a reality check?
gee and I thought we were all friends here. You mean were not??
Charles is very very disapointed in your failure to provide for him. He was looking forward to meeting you on the air with his new call sign. You know the one that you were going to get him without taking the CW code test.
Now he thinks all hams are liers and frauds because of you. Of course whats new huh!
By the way, Greta is a girls name (ops to be politically correct - - womans) Man I wouldn't want her to be made a me like she was with your. OUch!
Suddenly Greta I am back on. thanks for the support.
Looks like your friend is having some diodes shorting out and blowing a fuse.
gee why can't we all just get along?
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What is "Good" Enough?
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by KC8VWM on May 9, 2006
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To Pat Lambert, W0IPL,
Seems the trolls are having a good time messing up the message board lately.
Pat, please accept my apologies. I should know better than to feed the trolls.
Thanks for your most excellent submission and I sincerely look foward to reading your next one.
My Best,
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: What is "Good" Enough?
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by KC5TTL on May 9, 2006
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KC8VWM.
If you call people on this board "trolls" simply for questioning you making up rules and regulations not covered under any FCC part anyone can find, and getting a sicks mans hopes up simply to look like a hero - then Trolls they are I guess.
But just keep in mind, you sir, and not the so called trolls, are the one that gave a sick man empty promise by saying that there was a way he could get a General license without having to take the CW test.
What happens if he actually believed you? Can you imagine how he feels now after you told him there was a way of him getting an HF ticket that he has wanted all his life but has been unable to obtain due to a medical condition and then to find out that you were wrong.
All we are saying is that next time you want to spout off rules and regs, look them up first - that way you may keep someone from being disappointed after receiving false hope.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by VE7RS on May 9, 2006
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Good comments, Chris. I've been a ham for 25 years and a Fire Dispatcher for 15 and personally oversee a large commercial communications network. We require all our dispatchers to hold their ham tickets and also have two radios with ham frequencies in them, in our dispatch centre. I might add that we use only "commercial" kenwood radios; night and day difference re intermod,compared to ham radios. This also makes it legal to xmit on both ham and commercial freqs with ONE radio; something that many hams seem to forget - you can't just mod your ham radio and then get on commercial frequencies; not legally. We play by the rules. Our commercial rptrs are top notch and backed up with battery, diesel, etc; with a spare rptr should anything fail. I have a real problem with some ham's attitudes that they are "ready to take over when the emergency services radio systems fail". Most (not all) ham repeaters, would also be off the air, should something catostrophic occur. It is my opinion (think I'm entitled to it, the last time I checked...LOL) that hams should concentrate on helping agencies that NEED the help, in a disaster (ie: red cross, etc) and people that do not HAVE communications; and quit trying to play cop and tell the professionals what to do and that our systems will surely crash! This does not make for a good working relationship! Mobile HF is another area that hams could excell at; far too many just sit in their cozy shacks and depend on the A.C. mains. 73, Al
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RE: What is "Good" Enough?
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by KC8VWM on May 9, 2006
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by saying that there was a way he could get a General license without having to take the CW test.
--------------
That Sir is your own misunderstanding.
"Not once" did I indicate he would not be requirted to take any test at all whatso ever as you indicate.
I only suggested that the gentleman be adequately "accomodated" for his stroke condition.
Next time I would suggest you read the content instead of jumping to your own twisted conclusions.
My apology to the author stands.
73
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RE: What is "Good" Enough?
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by KC8VWM on May 9, 2006
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If you call people on this board "trolls" simply for questioning you making up rules and regulations not covered under any FCC part anyone can find.
---------
K5TTL,
Let me say that firstly, medical evaluations have absolutely nothing to do with any FCC rules or regulations.
..Nothing, nothing at all... Not now, not ever!
The answer is a resounding "NO"! Medical evaluations pertaining to an individuals medical condition in order to accomplish a CW test in front of a VE in a testing session have absolutely nothing to do with any FCC regulations existing in the past or today for that matter.
You seem to have misunderstood everything in your own mind with respect to this entire process and have compensated your reasoning with a barrage of FCC regulations in your head.
The FCC are not Doctors and VE's "MUST ACCOMODATE" people with disabilities during a CW test. End of discussion. That is fact written in stone and this is in fact the law.
The key word here is "Must"
End of story.
Do you see how this works yet?
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RE: What is "Good" Enough?
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by KD7YVV on May 10, 2006
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I've read some disturbing things this thread.
First off, hams do NOT "take over" when agency comms fail.
Anyone who has taken the 3 EmComm courses know that you
have no authority at all. Zip. None. Zilch.
Kirkland, WA ARES has Amateur radio figured into its
citywide emergency disaster plan. All Kirkland firehouses
as well as City Hall are equipped with Amateur equipment
and all ARES members have the codes to get into the
firehouses to use that equipment during our training
exercises. I even got to look at and serve in the
radio room down at the Red Cross in Seattle for a couple
of hours. I also do communications duty for King County
Explorer Search & Rescue. In addition to that, I check
into the Washington Amateur Radio Traffic System nightly.
Sometimes I pass traffic, most times I don't. So why do
I do it? Money? Nope. FCC rules prohibit Amateur
communications where any party has a pecuniary interest.
Fame? Definitely not. I'm not out to impress anyone.
Being from NJ originally, I honestly don't give a
rats ass what anyone thinks about me. So why then?
Why bother with taking the EmComm courses if the
"Government doesn't want/need you"? Also the gentleman
a few posts back who was told "we'll never need you"
among other negative attitudes....
So why should I bother? Because to me, giving something
back to my community without asking for anything in
return has its own reward.
Here are some of the requirements put forth by King
County as far as people who interact with their
agencies including hams have to follow:
Program Acceptance and Continuation:
~ Criminal/Driver license background checks on all candidates and card renewals.
Emergency workers may be dismissed at any time if their
actions violate laws or negatively impact the integrity
of the King County Emergency Worker/SAR program.
~ All emergency workers used or deployed by King County
will be registered in accordance with RCW 38.52 and
WAC 118-04.
Because emergency worker status applies from the time
you begin travelling to your assignment and is complete
upon your return to your normal activities, those who
drive to assignments must carry vehicle insurance on
all owned vehicles and provide vehicle insurance
information to King County.
Some of the training includes:
CPR
First Aid
Pathogens
Crime Scene
SAR Survival
SAR Techniques
Intermediate Helicopter
Map and Compass
Introduction to Search & Rescue
This training has to be renewed and you're given a
background/criminal check every time you renew as an
emergency worker.
I recently got a letter saying that there is additional
mandatory training.
We MUST (and must is capitalized in the letter) take:
ICS-100
IS-700 NIMS
So, any multiple HT carrying, yellow lights on car,
ARRL EmComm trained, made up badge carrying, save the
world attitude ham still think they're going to just
waltz into an incident and impress anyone with the
HT's, flashing lights, orange vests and badges?
I don't think so.
Sure I took all 3 EmComm courses and still go over the
material from time to time. Is it the et al be all of
training? No, of course not.
Look at the requirements I typed above. Why is all that
required? Easy answer, so when you show up and you have
that King County Emergency Worker card, they know the
only reason you showed up was because a page was put
out by a served agency requiring SAR. One of the things
we're taught in ARES is NEVER SELF ACTIVATE.
If I don't have an incident number, I DON'T GO.
Period. No ifs, ands, buts or whatevers.
They see that card and KNOW what training you have.
Why? Because, and this is really easy...
THEY PROVIDED IT.
They know who you are, what training you have, and
what your abilities are BECAUSE THEY TRAINED YOU.
The EmComm courses are good, but regardless of whether
you have them or not, you're still going to have to
go through any training a served agency requires in
order to serve them. That's the bottom line.
So? I have a ham radio. Big deal. I used it to report
an accident once. (Was confusing to the 911 dispatcher
at first getting a call from out of town to report an
in-town accident) Helped out and did what my first aid
and CPR training taught me to do.
I kept traffic moving and cleared the road as much as
I could so that medics and police would have a clear
road when they got there. (Traffic in Bellevue, WA
can be a nightmare, so I directed as many cars as I
could into the mall parking lot.)
Once the PROFESSIONAL FIRST RESPONDERS showed up, I
sat on the side of the road, out of the way.
After all was cleared up, a cop did see my radio and
asked what it was for. I told him I was an Amateur
radio operator. I handed him my ID, my Emergency Worker
card and ham license. He asked if I saw anything.
I told him everything I did from when I first got there
until fire/medics showed up. He took down my callsign
and emergency worker number. I asked if I could be of
any further assistance, I was told no. Then I asked if
I could be released from the scene. "Sure thing."
Did I stick around waiting for thanks or news crews
or a pat on the back? Heck no. I helped where I could,
stayed out of the way when professionals showed up,
gave my statement when asked, and left the area when
released. Does this make me want to go out and put
yellow lights on my car? Nope. Does it make me want
to get a badge made so I can be a "Junior G Man"?
Nope. I look upon the training I've recived with
gratitude. I'm glad it came in useful that day and
that I was able to help someone in need.
Am I good? I'm as good as the training I've received.
Am I there to run the show and bark orders?
Definately not, no way, no how.
I'm there to serve as I have been trained to do.
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA
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RE: What is "Good" Enough?
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by KD7YVV on May 10, 2006
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Oops, forgot.....
I'm too busy to go hunting around for accidents and
incidents to be a part of.
I'm studying to upgrade to Extra and want to enjoy
my HOBBY and work some good DX!
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA
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RE: What is "Good" Enough?
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by WHATURNUTS2 on May 11, 2006
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KC8VWM wrote
"Not once" did I indicate he would not be -requirted- to take any test at all whatso ever as you indicate.
geee I seem to recall you did do that and did answer him several times after we questioned you about what you were promassing.
Troll huh? I seem to also recall you saying we were so much dirt under your feet and, you were leaving.
Clearly you are a defination of the word, troll. To which we add Big Man on the web BMOW and if you really want to be reconized may I suggest that you raise your hand first and not flap your lips.
And as to your rantings and ravings you wrote. Wow you should get a life and be more relaxed. You know truck drivers and retired people should take time to smell the roses.
Boy is Greta ever hot about you. I would say your not one of her most favorite people from the email I got about you from her. She refered to you over 17 times as a "bonehead" and other fractured participles in describing you and your writing.
I only hope that you have not damaged the gents expectations on becoming a ham without taking the code test.
KC8VWM do you know much about radio or is that not your bag?
I was just reading a article in a medical journal that says 'soaking your feet in warm water and epsons salts up to your shinns is theripudic'. They claim it relaxes your brain, increases circulation, lowers your blood pressure and helps your memory. Maybe you should try that. See if it makes you feel any better. Hey you can do it while watching tv or hamming around. No on second thought don't do it while hamming. That will counteract the theripudic effect in your case.
I know that Greta might suggest something else for you to do with the bucket, water and soaking. As so many here also are speculating too.
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RE: What is "Good" Enough?
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by KC8VWM on May 11, 2006
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Internet troll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
"A troll is someone (WHATURNUTS2) who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, (Eham.net) and posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC5SAS on May 12, 2006
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I have to agree with the posts made by W0IPL and DD7YVV. The days of "come as you are" volunteers are rapidly ending. As they said in their posts, agencies are requiring certain training and background checks for people who will espond with them. The arguement "I have a ham license and hams are self trained so that's good enough" won't do it anymore.
Nobody is asking hams to "live" Ecom. What we are asking is for hams who want to volunteer during emergencies whe requested to meet certain minimum standards so we know what you are capable of and we can make plans on how to use you.
As the RACES officer for my Parish I am lucky to have a EM director who is an advocate of ham radio. The director provides radio equiptment for the EOC RACES station. She puts RACES on the agenda for the bimonthly Emergency Planning Committee meeting. She even put out calls through local media asking for hams to volunteer for RACES. She's a cheerleader for RACES but she has to cover her butt legally as director.
There aren't many requirements for RACES but due to Homeland Security funding and various other mandates there are a few.
1-RACES volunteers need a Ham license. Don't have one? No prob, we'll sign you up for a class and VE session given by a ham club.
2-Criminal background check. You are going to be working with the OEP in government buildings or disaster sites so they want to know who you are before they send you out wearing their ID card.
3-ICS and NIMS training. Sure it may not seem very important and as one person said only teaches who is in charge, "wins the peeing contest", but it's training that is required for EVERY responder including Police, Firefighters, public works and yes, HAMS. The courses can be taken online for free or you can sit in on one of the classes the OEP gives for free. This usually doesn't take more than a Saturday spent at the OEP and that's including time out for lunch.
4-Basic level 1 type ECOM training so that everyone is on the same sheet of music when called out/activated by OEP. Just covering the particular ways we would pass traffic and what equiptment is going to be used. This can be spread out over a period of a few weeks or months. One saturday every couple of months or every quarter at the OEP could cover it.
Once these basics are covered we can meet occasional of training on things such as First aid/CPR, HIPPA, sheltering and more as needed. These same meetings can be used to introduse volunteers to OEP staff and let them test RACES equiptment.
This isn't a lot and doesn't require much personal time. Just a couple of hours at the OEP/EOC maybe every other month or so. Once the requirements are met RACES membes are issued an OEP photo ID. We need to know who the hams are in our area who are trained to these minimum standards so that they can be credentialed and added to the contact list so that when something happens we know who to call. Those who say, "they know who to call" are wrong. If we don't have you on our lists we don't know you and you will not get called.
So with these minor requirements, the support of the staff at the OEP and the past hurricane season still fresh in our minds you would think tht we would have plenty of hams volunteering to sign up for RACES. If so you would be wrong.
For the past 12 months we have checked into area radio nets, contacted area ARES* and REACT groups, put articles in the local newspaper and even resorted to directly mailing every ham in the Parish a letter asking them to volunteer for RACES. We have gotten no response to any of our recruting efforts.
While our OEP director is pro ham radio and a supporter of RACES, she has made clear that the OEP can't accept the liablility of admitting people they have not previously vetted to controlled areas such as the EOC or other government buildings during a emergency. She can't just let anyone who shows up into the EOC to operate govenment owned radio gear without some prior knowledge of who that person is and if they are even capable of doing the job. Doing so opens them up for too many legal or security problems. That's the nature of civil defense these days.
You don't have to like it and we aren't forcing anyone to sign up. If you are happy with your ARES* group or local ham club which will take you as you are when you show up out of the blue that's cool with me. I hope you enjoy your time with them.
KC5SAS
Iberville Parish, La RACES Officer
Iberville RACES is the designated communications auxillary of the Iberville Parish Office of Emergency Preparedness. Iberville RACES is in no way affiliated with REACT, the ARRL, ARES* or any other club or organization.
*=ARES is a registered trademark of ARRL and is used with permission.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K1CJS on May 12, 2006
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Said Whaturnuts2:
"......FACT: ARRL SAYS they are the leadership of ham raido (well kinda)
FACT: ARRL is in it for the money.
Ok so how come the ARRL hasn't come out with DVD's or CD's on EMCOMM training. Where is the leadership that they claim? Where is the FCC publication in prepairing us hams for what were supposed to do according to some........."
This sounds familiar--you sure you're not The Whiner? (Ref. to W9WHE-II)
I've yet to see the ARRL claim they're the leadership of ham radio--what they do claim is they're the largest organization of hams representing hams to the FCC and the government, or words to that effect.
Also, if you kept up to date with the ARRL and its offerings, you would see that they DO offer courses for emergency communications, and also books and material on the same, including some of the FCC materials you talk about.
With reflection, you can't be W9WHE-II, he would have already known that. Even though he is the premier ARRL basher on this site, he is familiar with what they have and do, so he can bash them better! Also he like myself, has the bal*s to post under his call sign, unlike you and the other trolls here on this site.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WD8PTB on May 12, 2006
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I am an old fart who is set in his ways. You do what you want. I will help if I can but I will not be trained so they probably won't let me help. After many years on this earth I have spent thousands of hours in various training and taking tests. It wasn't any fun so I'm not going to do it anymore. Before you pass judgment on me wait untill you are an old fart and see how you feel then. By that time I will be dead and won't care what you think. Don WD8PTB
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K1CJS on May 12, 2006
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To those who say we should assist Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc., they have their own training regiment that they require their volunteers to go through. It comes down to the 'pay for it' problem once again. For example, the Red Cross training in my area is usually held in a training center that is about 60 or 70 miles away from my home--and it isn't a one shot deal, either--those courses may last a few days. Sometimes those courses are free, most of the time not, and they usually solicit 'contributions' from the participants.
Either way, it costs too much to be able to afford it counting the costs of gasoline these days, never mind the other costs involved.
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by AB7JK on May 12, 2006
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Volunteering for anything is foolish. People mostly do it to get a good (fake) feeling about themselves or for the approval of others.
Instead, see yourself as you are, repent of it - then you won't need approval from anyone nor will you serve the undeserving.
If you see yourself as you are and don't resent it (give up hate) instead of living the life of a phoney for approval (or rebelling) you'll become a whole person and no longer need:
Your porn
Your lottery tickets
The approval of your wife and kids
The approval of your boss
Your friends who are putting you on (for YOUR approval)
Your credit cards and the junk they provide
Your phoney brand of religion (that you hide behind so God can't find you)
Did I miss anyone?
It works. Seek truth and the truth will set you free.
Nothing less is 'Good Enough'
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KE4IOK on May 13, 2006
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Wow! The worst of both worlds! Why not add an ECOMM portion to the General License requirements in addition to the 5 WPM CW - we will set new records on comments!
Jim
KE4IOK
"just a Tech!"
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RE: "Good" Enough?
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by GRETA on May 14, 2006
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by KC8VWM on May 11, 2006
Internet troll----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
"A troll is someone (WHATURNUTS2) who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, (Eham.net) and posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion."
established community?? you still here?? ----So, using one of his words about you (KC8VWM) 'bonehead' your implying that (WHATURNUTS2) is now a troll?
Interesting when you stop to think about it.
Was it not YOU that promassed the handicapped person YOU WOULD GET HIM HIS LICENSE AND NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE CW TEST.
Was it not YOU that ran away and hid out when others and he asked you to back up your statements ? AND YOU DIDN'T--and instead attacked his person?
As to your statement of 'inflammatory, rude or offensive messages ' Was it not YOU that told (WHATURNUTS2) THAT HE WAS dirt under your feet when he questioned your abilites to get Charles his license without taking the code test?
Seems to me that your the one that started the problem and now want to draw attention to yourself by blameing others for YOUR incompedence and arogance. I am sure you have heard the words before. YOUR A FRAUD!! You should get a new call sign (URORGINALNUT)
IT FITS YOU TO A 'T'.
Are you really as sick mentally as you are physically? (Yes or No)
Ahhh yes the Big man who is whining about being attacked when in fact it was YOU that really is in the wrong here. I can see your sniveling and loss of credit in your own mind as these good people point you out as the person you exactly are.
KC8VWM---You only have to look in the mirror to see what the troll really looks like. Only in america can YOU COME ON A WEB, MAKE A FALSE AND MISLEADING STATEMENT, AND THEN BLAME SOMEONE ELSE FOR YOUR INABILITES TO PERFORM. THAT AFTER THEY REQUESTED YOUR CREDENTIALS TO ACHIEVE SUCH A FEAT.. LOL
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by GRETA on May 14, 2006
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K1CJS wrote on May 12, 2006
Said Whaturnuts2:
"......FACT: ARRL SAYS they are the leadership of ham raido (well kinda)
FACT: ARRL is in it for the money.
Ok so how come the ARRL hasn't come out with DVD's or CD's on EMCOMM training. Where is the leadership that they claim? Where is the FCC publication in prepairing us hams for what were supposed to do according to some........."
------------------------------------
K1CJS wrote---I've yet to see the ARRL claim they're the leadership of ham radio--what they do claim is they're the largest organization of hams representing hams to the FCC and the government, or words to that effect.
Also, if you kept up to date with the ARRL and its offerings, you would see that they DO offer courses for emergency communications, and also books and material on the same, including some of the FCC materials you talk about.
---------------------------------------------
K1CJS,
I think you answered his statement quite well. Of course you could say the General is not the leader of the army then also. He only represents each person in it?? Come on. I mean like DUHHHH I have read where they say just the opposite of you. They claim the title of representing hams just like the General does with the army.
In your second part about keeping up to date with the ARRL. Again I think you answered and confirmd his statement. something about 'CHA-CHING' ($) and there is money to be made from this.
So whining, trolling, sorry just dont see it. But, Just wanted to let you made some very creditable statements confirming his observations. I don't think you wanted to do that! Ops!!
The rest of your opinions you wrote I'll take as your personal problems. I am sure you might get a response from Whaturnuts2 about your attack on him. So don't be like KC8VWM and start whining when he sinks your ship. :)
As the hackers said about microsofts new program that bill gates was selling; call NT. It was supposed to be hack proof. But as they proved at its unvailing, suddenly the words showed up on the screen 'MICROSOFT NT. NT- stands for Nice Try Bill.' His brand new program that was supposed to be hack proof-wasn't. talk about one pissed off person. bill stormed off the stage and fired all the developers.
wouldn't it be a lot nicer if people really knew what they are talking about instead of enuendoes. Like you DO ALL HAMs have this hidden gene in their pool?
We will recomend you for the Darwin Award Gene Pool along with KC8VWM, OK
---The gene pool of a species or a population is the complete set of unique alleles that would be found by inspecting the genetic material of every living ham member of that species or population. A large gene pool indicates extensive genetic diversity, which is associated with robust populations that can survive bouts of intense selection. Meanwhile, low genetic diversity (see--- Some Ham radio operators like yourself, on inbreeding and population bottlenecks) can cause reduced fitness and an increased chance of extinction.--
"It's funny," said one companion, "when KC8VWM was young he put on his sister's underwear. he got the old flag pole, which now only makes half mast, stuck in the zipper and cried like a wounded rab-bit." He had a change of life-- somthing about being a little izusu - - hare-less. LOL
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KC8VWM on May 14, 2006
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(New and Improved Updated Description!)
"Internet Troll"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
"A troll is someone (GRETA) who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, (Eham.net) and posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WHATURNUTS2 on May 15, 2006
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KC8VWM on May 14, 2006
(New and Improved Updated Description!)
"Internet Troll"
"A troll is someone (KC8VWM) who blindly comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, (Eham.net) and proclaims his greatness and achievement to others. Promasses poor handicapped kids that he will save their day and get them their license without having to take the code test. When others asked him how he plans to do this and under what rules he thinks he will use to back up his statement; he gets hostile, disgruntal, dispickable with conduct unbecoming a true ham by becoming insultive using a lot of pronouns' He then Starts name calling with expressive enuendoes thinking that this will ward off any further questions and attacks. He Posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed to annoy and antagonize the existing members and/or disrupt the flow of discussion.
And then has the nuts to tell everyone that he is not that he is a little person, not that great and can not do what he promassed he could deliver. He considers himself above them. He then Refuses to answer their questions about his abilities. This then results in his designed confusing and contridictive statements to the rest of the members of the community with his own flip-flop attitude. To which he then loses the argument to himself.
But, wait there is more. He then goes and gets his buddys to come to his aid, saying how great a person he is while they downplay the orginal issue. Then he has the odasity to proclame that he is a RN, Director of Operations for the EOS, RACES, ARCHKING, BMOC, ARRL DIRECTOR, Outer Space laison between the little space aliens and humans, (when cooked they tast a lot like chicken) president of the United States of the way Far North and a host of other things that he really isn't. Yet in his own mind he thinks is a very nice advanced educated person. (sic).
Oh! And lest we forget he doesn't clean up well, leaving a potent lingering smell that one wonders what kinda fish really died.
He is a card carrying member of that exclusive and very small narrow minded gene pool Greta wrote about.
The last good feature that this troll has is one of repetiveness similar to that of a mindless parrot. (most parrots have protested his being associated with them as they feel he is not a high enought caliber to meet their union requirements) He is of the mind state that can not think but, can only repeat itself over and over. (similar to a druling babbling idiot in a mental ward). (Ref. see statement he wrote about Grata) In his case though its never right with lots of mistakes, which make others just smile and nod in his directions. If they don't he gets very angry, disgruntal and voical demanding his way. (again similar to what a 9 month old baby does).
He is one that always point to someone else, such as the dog, cat or person who has discoverd him to be a stinking fraud for the H2S smell and soil job he leaves where ever he goes. He always using the phrase, 'it wasn't me', or 'I didn't do that'. When in fact-- they wrote the very thing they say the didn't and somehow conviently forgot.
Memory loss is also accrediated to the mental state of the Troll "
Source: http:// KC8VWM is the Internet_troll
don't worry Greta. He knows not what he does. You have to excuse him for being mindless. Lost and found is still trying to help him get his mind back. He is one sick puppy and just refuses to deal with
it. He is the model TROLL!!. LOL
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K1CJS on May 15, 2006
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To whaturnuts2,
And just what would you call that diatribe that you posted immediately above if not 'trolling'?
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K1CJS on May 15, 2006
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Say greta,
I just love when someone tries to disprove statements by quoting them and saying they prove the point. You obviously have a hard time understanding much. Trying to equate an army general and the army to the ARRL and the ham community is just a sign of such. In this man's army, when a general says jump, you'd better jump. Not true with the ARRL and the ham community. Oops. Strike one.
Also, I never said the ARRL wasn't in it to make money, I just said they offer the material your buddy says isn't available from them. Oh, boy, strike two.
As far as the rest of my statements, one of the main reasons people post under psudonames or handles if you like is so they can make outrageous statements, provoke others, be obnoxious, hide their stupidity or their lazyness, and generally just be a nuisance to others who post their opinions.
Gee, unfortunately that's strike three, and as far as I'm concerned, you're OUT.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by GRETA on May 15, 2006
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Well its my turn to pitch to you now?
And your excuse for not stepping up to the plate is????
Oh darn I'm sorry I just wasn't concentrating on the game. I never knew you guys have two bats to hit with. Your so em-bareass-ing
And its waving a little flag for you below the belt! My My. I was watching you rase the flag pole. You know how you salute the troops, get a lift out of watching the dog, that kind of thing.
I consider the source darling! which in your case you sure ain't got much. Why it doesn't even have a head on it. Looks like a sun baked prune. LoL I am sorry I sholdn't laugh at a mentally handicapped person. But, in your case I will make a exception.
Besides your gay and after walking out of the cowboy movie-- I guess the following have a whole new meaning for you dude as your Top Ten Old West Phrases That Will Never Sound The Same After That Damned Gay Cowboy Movie
1. "I'm gonna pump you fulla lead!"
2. "Give me a stiff one, barkeep!"
3. "Don't fret---I've been in tight spots before."
4. "Howdy, pardner."
5. You stay here while I sneak around from behind."
6. Two words: "Saddle Sore."
7. "Hold it right there! Now, move your hand, reeeal slow-like."
8. "Let's mount up!"
9. "Nice spread ya got there!"
10. "Ride'em cowboy!"
Wow you really do get turned on with those don't you. Too bad you threw in the towel and lost the game attacking the catcher at home base. Guess the umpire didn't find your jesters or remarks funny about a threesom. Oh well what a dry sence of humor you have too.
Excuse me I have a phone call. "hello hubbie lets go out tonight I feel like danceing" and guess what he can do that you can't. (grin) Besides he knows morse code and knows how to use it. Ohhh just thinking about it--mmmmmm I am sure you don't and can't. I'm going out with a real man,-- something I am sure you will say you are too. enjoy. C ya - bonehead
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K1CJS on May 16, 2006
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Concerning your last post greta, see the reasons for your strike three in my last post. Same reasons apply to this one.
Also, in another article, I recall you lambasting someone about greta being a womans name. After reading your last post, I'm sure there are other ladies out there that are glad you didn't say it was a ladies name. I feel sorry for you, your delusions--and your feelings of inadequacy. Have a nice day.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WHATURNUTS2 on May 16, 2006
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K1CJS on May 16, 2006
Concerning your last post greta, see the reasons for your strike three in my last post. Same reasons apply to this one.
Also, in another article, I recall you lambasting someone about greta being a womans name. After reading your last post, I'm sure there are other ladies out there that are glad you didn't say it was a ladies name. I feel sorry for you, your delusions--and your feelings of inadequacy. Have a nice day.
---------------------------------------------------
Wow CJS you really stuck it to her didn't you. No doubt your the pillar of a Gentlman who know his business.
Quite frankly after reading what she posted about you I would have to say -- you lose
I read KC8's diatribe and his calling her a dude, did you. As to feeling sorry for her and her delusions, inadequacys; I really think a devorced man with a gay background with only a computer and half a brain has lots of delusions about fun loving females that real men enjoy being around.
As to Ladies vs Women.
I don't know about you but a lady is a pompas person. Has limited uses in life. (A door stop is one of them). One that thinks they are of high society that looks down their nose at others and scoffs at the fun they are having. Using such words as Un-lady like and dispickable behavior. Very similar to what you do as you wrote.
However, a woman is one that all real men want not some whining and bitching old social dog. A woman complete a mans life and does it without whining and complaining. She is a helper to the man. Not something to be worshiped for the ground she walks on. Then again how would you know what a real woman is. You probably were married to a 'lady' that didn't know how to be a woman because she didn't have a real man around to take her from being a lady to a woman. (Yes someone said that when you were younger you wore you sisters underware and talked funny)
Oh well you blew your chance (your wife left you and went to a real man - hmmm) and look at you now. A lonely old man that can't remember enough to get a general license, learn code, have enough clout or manhood to keep a woman and only resorts to trolling on webs that he knows nothing about.
Yep I would say you really stuck it to her. (although she probably went out last night and had a great time with her husband - and you did?? what with the dog) You barbarian you. Talk about a person with a fetish -- Ummm.
Only one problem she took you out and you didn't even know it. she is a woman and you are?? How does it feel to be beaten by a woman although I am sure your used to it by now.
Not bad Greta you get a gold star.
Glass houses huh -
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by GRETA on May 16, 2006
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WHATURNUTS2
Thank you. You are a gentleman. Unlike some others who throw stones and live in glass houses.
I had the most wonderful time last night with my best friend, my hubbie. First he took me out to dinner, then to a movie, then to the club for drinks and dancing.
It was the most wonderful evening I have had yet. Each time it just seems to get better and better. I never knew that it could keep going this way after marrage. He is such a thougtful man. He even brought home flowers. I thought I had forgotten something but, it was just him being my best friend and husband.
Unlike our prude who thinks he is a baseball pitcher that probably sat home last night and ... well lets just say he is one sick lonely loser puppy.
As far as I can tell it was multipul home runs with lots of scores. I think you know what I mean. It is so wonderful to have a great guy like him. Ahhh what a man!! It sets the mood as everying is beautiful and wonderful today.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by K1CJS on May 17, 2006
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In answer to both whaturnuts2 and greta, I repeat my earlier statement:
One of the main reasons people like you post what you do is so they can make outrageous statements, provoke others, be obnoxious, hide their stupidity or their lazyness, and generally just be a nuisance to both others who post their opinions and to the website in general.
Go ahead and stir the pot some more and bring more of your stink out in the open. It makes no difference to me how much you make fools out of yourselves, not that you haven't done a magnificent job of that already. You see, statements made about a person for the purpose of getting them upset and making them retaliate are only effective if they are true. I'm just amused at the stuff you two posted. Keep it up and amuse us some more--I'm just going to sit back and enjoy your next bit of comedy. Have a nice day!
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KD7CJO on May 17, 2006
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Hey All, I think that this was an intersting artical and I agree with a lot of what was sead threrein. There have been a couple of cases in the US where first responders were sued by the person whom they saved! I, for one, am NOT going to open myself up to a lawsuit becouse I used "training" that I got by the state to save a life! I`m being brought in(on my own time and dime)to push buttons and pass traffic, NOT to save a life via mouth to mouth or some such means.(life saving by radio only) Is the state or club going to back me if I get sued? Most likely not and you never know just who you may be dealing with! There will be anyway others around that will be getting paid AND trained to save lives by this means. If I wanted to do this kind of work then I`d have gone to school to be an EMT,nurse,doctor,ect.(I went to eng. school instead) AND be able to get PAID while doing so. The rules say VERY clearly that we can`t be paid to do what we do except under VERY limited circumsatnces.(not related to our VOLENTEER work) Remember that hams are VOLENTEERS! NOT PAID docs, ect. first in realtion to our ham radio activities. This is a volenteer comm. service, not a gov. medical corp! They just want more and more training(but with no pay) to do the same stuff we`ve always done.(comm.) Am I going to get paid docs wages for doing mouth to mouth on someone by the state? Don`t think so. I went to eng. school so that I could be PAID for my SERVICES,to do something that I like,and really WANT to do with my life.(ham radio is just a hobby after all) While I do understand the need for SOME training in the area of helping others, I don`t see the need to be putting more of a "burden" on us as RADIO VOLENTEERS. Just my two bits worth. 73 and good dx to all de kd7cjo in Wyoming
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WHATURNUTS2 on May 17, 2006
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K1CJS
I find you to be a very funny and deranged little man.
I guess normality is not one of your better vertues.
to answer your question or should I say whining-- opinions are like .- ... -- .... --- .-.. . ...
.--- ..- ... - .-.. .. -.- . ..- :)))
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?
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by WHATURNUTS2 on May 17, 2006
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KD7CJO
You should never be put in a position where that be the case, unless its in extream emergency situations. Your not a doctor, nor should they ever assume that you are their to render first aid unless your under a doctors supervision and given specific instructions or had extensive medical training, both.
Your right you are only to handle the radio. Like a military field operator. You can shoot in defense, but that is not your job. If you watch, the radio man is the one that is maintaining the comm between the field and the HQ or command. Not engaged in the combat fire fight.
Same here. You are the comm. person. That is a big enough job in itself. To do it with professionalism does require training. However, this training should not be outside the realm of the radio it maintenance and operation.
However---
If you have had medical training and are a card carrying member of such---
You are wrong about the legal action. Courts have ruled that in fact if you do not render aid in a life threating situation that is within your means to save anothers life then you can be hauled into court and questioned as to why you allow the victum to pass.
Most cases where the person who was saved by another in life threating situations and that GS person was the only one around; can not be prosicuted. I don't know a judge that wouldn't throw the case out without adding that the plantiff is a ingrate. It comes under the Good Samaritan law and you are not liable.
However that being said, one needs to follow the steps and training that one gets from the red cross or other nationally reconized orginazation for first aid responders so as not to do greater harm to the person that your attending. It has been through the courts for people who are not card carrying members that came across a accident. The victum was in imminate danger and the good samaritan acted with prudence. Again the court threw out the case when the person he saved brought against them. In these cases its all about the money anyway.
The choice is yours however, no one is going to make you do anything you don't want to do. And shouldn't. One should never get over ones head when it comes to anothers life. Retrospectivly one should not shrugg ones duty to help ones fellow man in need either.
i.e don't be a John Wayne nor a woos only do what you can and know how to do.
Personal safety is a issue that only one person can answer.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?--The DORK strikes again
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by GRETA on May 18, 2006
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Seems that someone WHINED and complained about his response. Too bad that the modirator didn't get rid of a few more of the REAL NUTS on here. Nuts2 was a very nice person that had a lot of clout unlike some others who are definatel lonely and distrubed individuals in the sand box.
But now you know why some people don't have their real name or call signs. THE MODIRATOR HAS BAN THEM FROM THE WEB. SO WHY USE YOUR OWN? GEEE TALK ABOUT DISCRIMINATION AND BIAS what a offensive hit on the constitution, freedom of speach.
AS TO HIS CODE SENDING. GEE NOTHING THAT HASN'T BEEN APPROVED BEFORE. MAYBE THE MODIRATOR MIGHT WANT TO GET WITH THE 20TH CENTURY NOW. THESE WORDS ARE COMMON AND ARE EVEN SAID ON TV. BUT HEY ITS THE WAY OF THE DORKS THAT RUN THE JOINT. (in german accent) 'YOU WILL CONFORM OR YOU WILL DIE' seems a little narrow minded dictitorial and repressive. I wonder if Nuts2 could file a class action sute againt the DORK for terroristic and offensive actions.
gee I can't imagine why anyone would want to subscribe to this DORKS web. With the attitude like that clearly he is not reviewing all the information and impulsively deleting people who do contrubuite to the community.
Oh well I guess it gives them a large charge and ego boost. Hmmmm... The rest of us have to put up with the fruts and nuts who insult, don't add any intelect to the thread and just plane TROLL. The DORK doesn't seem to remove them. Wonder why?
Could it be the dummying down of the pool. Clearly what is going to be left to play with are only the fruits and nuts which don't know a resistor from a diode, got their license by paying for it and are upgrades from truckers, big mouth no nothing CB'ers and of course lest we not forget the TROLLs who know who they are, that only get on to be disruptive and insertive so they can see their call posted. We all know exactly that they get a big ban out of seeing that but, leaves no real contrubution to the discussion on the thread. THE DORK SHOULD DUMP THESE PEOPLE AS BEING USELESS EMPTY SPACE BLOCKERS. USELESS BEING THE KEY WORD.
Now I understand why the ham community is dying. It is these no nothing ding-a-lings that are killing any progress that others which contrubute try to make.
I guess you could say, what ya gona do when all the good guys are gone.
In our local area the radio club had gone from over 100 members to just 15 or 20 this last year. In the last meeting field day has been cancled due to lack of support. The club is failing to have enough utilization of its 2 mtr repeater that the tower owners want to have it removed so they can put a commercial system up. The club is not going to make its bills by July and so they wanted to know what kind of fund rasier the members might want to participate in. None was suggested and so the club president said that if they didn't have a influx of funds. The club will disband. One of the older members said that its nothing new. The new hams are only users and not contrubutors. (similar to what were seeing all around)
Its one thing to be able to use something but, nothing is free.
So the troll just sit back in their dark cave and enjoy attacking as a great sport.
to which then new people who don't care about them and the attacks they bring will use phoney names and if they get booted well... no big thing. Nothing gained nothing lost.
Just don't come on and say ... well they should use their real call... ahhh they can't because the DORK THAT RUNS THE JOINT used the dump button which then locks out their call.
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RE: What is 'Good Enough'?--The DORK strikes again
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by K1CJS on May 19, 2006
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Greta--
You still don't get it, do you? When you come on a board like this one, talk to people like you were talking to them face to face. Both whatu.. and yourself made some statements that no sane person would say to another person to their face--just like whatu's last post in code--you probably would get yours flattened.
If you come on a board like this and act like a total idiot, insulting and taunting people to no end, you just may get yourself booted off. Act civilized and with some respect for others and you probably will never find yourself banned from using the site.
_____________________
KD7CJO--
You've got it right about attempting to help someone in a medical or life threatening sense, but if every volunteer communicator took that attitude, it would hasten their being told to leave and not come back. Yes, we are communicators, first and foremost. BUT, we can also bring paper messages for one person to another, carry a box of supplies from one place to another, help in a kitchen line, etc. etc.
There are things we can do to help otherwise in times of emergency, not just acting important while sit on our butt and stare at a radio waiting for someone to come on it.
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EMCOM = EGO's and Politics
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by KC5FOG on May 20, 2006
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The biggest problem with EMCOM today is politics and infighting. I don't know how many hams have lost interest in being a part of their local ares/races/or other form of emcom due to the click or politcs. Same thing with alot of public service events. Thats why allot of hams have I'll wait till I'm called attitude. I don't blame them either, the politics of the emcom groups around here are unreal. Its always someone with a fathead with a emcom badge,orange vest and too many radios on his belt who thinks he has some authority and if you dont' kiss his butt and stroke his ego your not part of the click. And then you get into the old timers and the new hams yelling and screaming about if HF or VHF/UHF is more important.
I already have too many egos and politics in law enforcment to deal with.
Eric KC5Fog
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REALLY DUMB!
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by W0IPL on June 4, 2006
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How, for the last fifteen or twenty days you clowns have not even addressed the subject of the thread.
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Practical use of hands-on Emcomm training, effort
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by AH6RH on July 1, 2006
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Pat, good to hear from you again. Pat and I were co-authors of ARRL's ARECC Emergency Communications course.
Pat is right that there's more to training than just passing coursework. And, more than just equipping yourselves. It's putting it into daily practice that's key.
I understand about those who feel that they have a career and family to support, and that it's difficult to merge the commitment of Emergency Communications with their daily lives. To this point, I'd like to offer these thoughts.
Beyond knowledge, and commitment, Emergency Communications is a mindset and discipline. It involves:
1) Getting it done right the first time, because when time's ticking away, there is no second time -- or opportunities will be missed.
2) Innovation, adaptability, building solutions and overcoming obstacles to get the job done -- because while we share our experiences, thoughts and insights -- when emergency communications happens in real-time, no one's going to be standing next to you to tell you what to do next. You gotta blend in with the rest of the team and anticipate *stuff* before it happens and adapt. You cannot fail your team, and your team cannot fail you.
3) As good friend Carter Davis, KH6FG, who is our lead Hazardous Materials person at the fire department said about dealing with emergencies, he thinks about (a) what has to be done, (b) what does he have to work with, and (c) what has been accomplished. In his case, Emergency Communications (Fire Department and amateur radio) is an integral part of his job.
4) As for me, I use the above as a springboard for new careers. It's changed over years from applications programming, and system programming/management and has moved to proven track records on large scale project management.
The mindset and skills honed for emergency communications plays itself out daily for anticipating needs and obstacles, positioning people and communicating solutions, and building the foundations and plans for disaster recovery/business continuity. I keep my eyes and ears out for ANYTHING in the company that could be improved for DR and BC purposes, and literally train others each day about plans, supplies, a mindset and posture for immediate response. Turn their minds from "its black magic I don't understand" to "I can see how it can be done".
In Hawaii, we have to be mindful. If your project is impacted, it takes at least a day for things to be FEDEX'ed or UPS'ed because you can't just drive down the street for many critical items.
And during a hurricane or tsunami, we're on our own for days and weeks. Hence the personal attention over the years to emergency level discipline, posture and exercise.
In a few minutes, I head to work to lead a major software conversion this weekend that's been in the works for two months, and will click off like a military A-team operation or the launch of a space shuttle. Myself along with a team of similarly highly skilled and discplined professionals who know how to respond and adapt in real-time.
Yes, community emergency communications and commitment can be consistent with daily living and career building. If you open your eyes and mind to the possibilities.
Ron Hashiro, AH6RH
Honolulu, HI
http://ronhashiro.htohananet.com/am-radio/emcomm/
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What is 'Good Enough'?
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by KK5CA on July 13, 2006
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Nice article Pat. Some of the replies reminded me why less than 10 percent of the more than 1,300 Amateur Radio operators who signed up on the Katrina.AB2M.net database were actually used. The vast majority were untrained, inexperienced, unqualified, and they were "just checking in for the count." One wrote "willing to study emergency communications training materials while on assignment." Another "willing to handle traffic but do not know the radiogram format."
Snoppy best summarized the time for training when he said "Five minutes before the party is not the time to learn how to dance."
Jerry
KK5CA
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