Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
Vito Chiarappa (W6TH)
on
June 18, 2006
View comments about this article!
I imagine that this information now being passed on to eHam may be of some use to many amateurs that are deeply into antenna design and as a playful toy. The following will be a list of the many antennas that can be used for more than one antenna system and one resonant antenna that can be used for other bands as well, some with more gain.
...........SINGLE BANDS................
METERS.1/2LAMBDA.1/4LAMBDA.1LAMBDA.5/8LAMBDA.
20.....33.42 ft..16.71 ft..66.84 ft..41.78ft.
17.....25.91 ft..12.95 ft..51.82ft..32.39 ft.
15.....22.23 ft..11.12 ft..44.46 ft..27.79ft.
12.....18.80 ft..9.40 ft..37.60 ft..23.50 ft.
10.....16.68 ft..8.34 ft..33.36 ft..20.85 ft.
..............MULTIPLE BANDS...............
20....................33.42 ft.
17....................32.39 ft.
17....................25.91 ft.
15....................27.79 ft.
12.........23.50 ft. (Possible)
17....................32.39 ft.
10....................33.36 ft.
.....There are a variety of more, but will leave it up to you and your antenna match box as some have a greater range than others............
This could evolve into a new design for our amateur bands and it is all up to your experiments, or determines the efficiency of something previously untried.
..................GOOD LUCK............
73, Vito W6TH.
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KC5TTL on June 18, 2006
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Pure Rubbish.
One - I understand antenna design extremely well and have designed many many antennas myself -- and yet - have no clue what the purpose of this article is. It tells no one anything of value.
second - Holy cow -- where did you learn to write -- are you trying to be reflective of the 1800's special ed program for peasants??.
"""I imagine that this information now being passed on to eHam may be of some use to many amateurs that are deeply into antenna design and as a playful toy.""""
What the heck does that mean?? Playful toy?? Information now being passed?? Are thou tryeth to beith a member of the Kings's court??
----
"The following will be a list of the many antennas that can be used for more than one antenna system and one resonant antenna that can be used for other bands as well, some with more gain."
Yeah your English lost me on that one too -- and you never demonstrated which ones had more gains so how do we know which ones you were talking about.
You never talked about any of the antennas, their designs, their gains, the pros or cons, ANYTHING??? You just threw up a chart of worthless dribble.
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"There are a variety of more, but will leave it up to you and your antenna match box as some have a greater range than others"
Like which ones??? What the heck are you talking about???
--
"This could evolve into a new design for our amateur bands and it is all up to your experiments, or determines the efficiency of something previously untried."
Totally clueless as to what you are trying to say ..!!
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N3OX on June 18, 2006
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KC5TTL: You don't need resonant HF antennas because you are not permitted to transmit anywhere, what with the expired license and all.
You gonna fix that?
Until then, all the antenna you need is a long wire to the high impedance input of your shortwave receiver.
Dan
N3OX
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N3OX on June 18, 2006
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At the same time, I do think it would be worthwhile to at least enumerate the particular advantages and disadvantages of the various lengths on the bands you're using them on. Feedpoint impedances, gain over a dipole, maybe even half power beamwidth! Where do you put the feedpoint?
While it is useful for people to know what lengths to put up and which lengths to avoid, it is even more important that they know WHY, so that they may design their own systems for what they need. This article barely does the former, and it doesn't approach the latter.
73,
Dan
N3OX
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by N3OX on June 18, 2006
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Incidentally, if you want to know antennas.
www.cebik.com
Read the WHOLE THING.
Dan
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by DJ8GO on June 18, 2006
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The usual half-baked nonsense from Vito. I think he whipped out his high-tech calculator (all four basic operations! wow!) and realized that, e.g., a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands. Never mind that a half wave dipole is usually fed in the middle and a 5/8 is typically a vertical fed at the end. Nothing to pass on here to future generations of experimenting hams except a chuckle and admiration for is unfailing ability to make a fool of himself again.
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by RADIOGUYR2 on June 18, 2006
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wow... this is truly the mark of a great politician. Here he does exactly the same as they do. Tell you nothing new, put out a bunch of numbers and junk that mean almost nil to the technical person. Then sit back and want someone to say. good job. here is a medal for your help in bettering mankind. (sic)
I would rather think Vio got a new computer and found excel on it that prints out a lot of numbers. Not knowing what they really ment he probably posted them and is waiting for someone else to inform him of exactly what he has.
Geee wait till he gets into quantum physics and electron theroi. Definately thinking outside the box. Way outside the box!
Hey vio why not put all the center frequencies of all the ham HF bands in and find out what multipul basic length the 8x coax should be for multi banding while your playing around.
I am sure that might be of more use to all here and their.
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by HA5RXZ on June 18, 2006
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This is the third antenna article by Vito I have read on Eham and all three appear to be rather odd. Columns of figures, measurements of antennas in strange units such as 0.8 feet and statements such as 'the number of radials do not matter' make me wonder what is going on.
A comment by a member of the Eham editorial team would be welcome here. Maybe we should have a system of peer review before an article appears on the website?
HA5RXZ
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by AB2MH on June 18, 2006
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Hey Vito, can you explain the article? Flames aside, it's apparent that it needs some clarity.
Thanks
AB2MH.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by K1OU on June 18, 2006
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What I glean from this is that this is supposed to be a handy online reference for making inverted L antennas. It can be a pretty effective antenna on multiple bands, when fed with balanced line through a tuner.
So, if you want to make a 5/8 L for 20, cut 42 feet, build a matching network. There you have it.
Or, as an acquaintance of mine in North Caroline did, put up a 3/8L cut for 160, fed it with open wire, and it also worked VERY well on 75 as a 3/4 L. 500 miles away and typically 20 over in Ohio without an amp.
There is also an article in an ARRL antenna compendium about this idea, I forget which one specifically.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by AF0H on June 18, 2006
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Wait a minute!
Open your mind here!
Give the guy a chance!
Vito's article made perfect sense when I read it under the influence of LSD...
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KF6XA on June 18, 2006
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You know, guys, Vito is 84 years old. He has been a ham, he says, almost SEVENTY years, and he is still trying to contribute to the hobby.
When I am that age, I hope just to be able even to find my way to the computer and boot Windows 2033. If I still have the ability to see and type, and to make sure my license renewal is filed, and to want to continue to contribute, I hope that people will be kind if my writing is not completely satisfactory to them.
In any case, I really think that these articles should be reviewed and the comments moderated. The original article needed editing, and many of the comments should have been excluded as pointless or off-topic.
73 and Happy Fathers' Day
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N4JBK on June 18, 2006
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KC5TTL get a life, if what is written isn't up to your "standards" read something else. I commend Vito for taking the time to try to put something together for the good of the order. The type of attitude that TTL is showing is in large part what is throwing water on the fire of ham radio. Way to go!
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N6AJR on June 18, 2006
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I still prefer the multi band , single feed antenna in either a one under the other configuration or in an umbrella pattern, same measurements, different antenna
AKA fan dipole:
http://www.ku4ay.net/dipole.html
http://www.qsl.net/kd7rem/antdipole.htm
http://www.hamuniverse.com/multidipole.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/ni4l/ni4ldipole.html
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/9611073.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/n2uhc/2banddipole.html
http://www.qsl.net/na4it/fandipole.html
ya got me thinking Vito, good job My Friend.
remember any antenna is better than no antenna at all :)
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
by N3OX
At the same time, I do think it would be worthwhile to at least enumerate the particular advantages and disadvantages of the various lengths on the bands you're using them on. Feedpoint impedances, gain over a dipole, maybe even half power beamwidth! Where do you put the feedpoint?
While it is useful for people to know what lengths to put up and which lengths to avoid, it is even more important that they know WHY, so that they may design their own systems for what they need. This article barely does the former, and it doesn't approach the latter.
73,
Dan
N3OX
---------------------------------------------------
The idea of this post is to discuss the in and outs of a system of; regarding the impedances to each and every length. To also give some hints and kinks to many new to ham radio of what can and cannot be done.
Consider this post as a means of getting more acquainted to antennas, an education, which most new to ham radio, then just hanging them into the air. Such as: can a half wave high impedance antenna be of any value with another.
The fan dipole can and now what will be your choice?
Is it possible to have a halfwave antenna for 75 meters fed with coax and can it be used for the forty meter band?
Remember a OCF antenna is resonant on one or two bands. The other frequencies are not resonant and work on related harmonics, some becoming long wire antennas.
-----------------------------------------------------
KC5TTL mentions:
Are thou tryeth to beith a member of the Kings's court??
You are bloody well right mate as my English teacher , being my "mum" and living in Canada when young, guess the limy in me "chum" hasn't faded. Remember, our forefathers George Washington and the writers of the Constitution of these United States and the Bill of Rights were American "borne" of English decent. Now check out their English and have yourself a ball. That is if you "chuse".
W6TH
.:
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing.
by DJ8GO
The usual half-baked nonsense from Vito. I think he whipped out his high-tech calculator (all four basic operations! wow!) and realized that, e.g., a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands. Never mind that a half wave dipole is usually fed in the middle and a 5/8 is typically a vertical fed at the end. Nothing to pass on here to future generations of experimenting hams except a chuckle and admiration for is unfailing ability to make a fool of himself again.
---------------------------------------------------
a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands.
-----------------------------------------------------
You gave me the answer I was looking for. You followed my instructions quite well.
Thank you, thank you.
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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.
Please read this very carefully and try to understand.
Some hams believe they can buy or make a halfwave dipole fed with a coax line for any one single band. This same one ham one of many does not realize that this cannot be done.
John D. Kraus (SK) came along and said that it is not good practice to do so as the standing wave ratio would be high and very little amount of rf would be radiated.. Therefore John Kraus, in place of the coax line, told us hams many years ago to remove the coax line and use a open wire balanced line, therefore this same halfwave antenna can be used as a multiple band antenna. Most hams use the 450 ohm line today called the ladder line. Years ago, hams home brewed their own open wire line, going for the 600 ohm Z, which was a good match for the transmitters that were used in those era's. Tuners or match boxes were not always used and the final amplifiers were linked coupled to the open wire line with the antenna attached. Shortly later there were methods of where the feed line were matched by several different methods.
With this lesson it should be noticed that using a half wave antenna fed with coax in the center, should not be used as the VSWR will be very high and not the full amount of power will be radiated.
Remember that the Center Fed Zepp, the impedance changes from high to low for each given band. It is possible to have a high impedance antenna combined with a lower impedance, by different methods of feeding the antenna. Such as feeding both a half wave and a 5/8 wave by a feed method.
.:What method of mixed match can you come up with?:.
.
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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DJ8GO. Ulrich
You may not find it possible to do the matching, but my friend I can. So it comes to the point that I can do what you can't do.
You say you can't do this, well my friend I can.
...a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands.
--------------------------------------------------
Yes Ulrich, I can do this matching and even add one or two more. You seem to not know enough about impedance matching.
Are you that old whereby you cannot be taught such as an old dog to be taught new tricks?
No wonder your paddle is not selling, poor design eh?
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KC5TTL on June 18, 2006
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A hundred dollars to anyone that can decipher what Vito means by:
""You are bloody well right mate as my English teacher , being my "mum" and living in Canada when young, guess the limy in me "chum" hasn't faded.'"
Anyone??
Bueller??
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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N3OX, Dan
While it is useful for people to know what lengths to put up and which lengths to avoid, it is even more important that they know WHY, so that they may design their own systems for what they need. This article barely does the former, and it doesn't approach the latter.
.....................................................
The idea of this post was to find the great antenna people to come up with some new ideas. Why leave it all up to those that manufacture at a great price. I thought, which I feel I am wrong, there would be a few ham readers that could piece this all together and come up with a few good samples to have the old building days come back to life.
Americans being creative and using logic?... Seems the engineers of the past would surely have many good suggestions by now.
Good that we have companies that still manufacture the antennas we have today or we would be at a loss.
73, W6TH
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by DJ8GO on June 18, 2006
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Vito,
rather than demonstrating your proficiency with a pocket calculator dividing a few numbers and claiming that elementary school math provides deep new insights, why don't you propose an antenna design, feedline and all, with specific characteristics that can be tested or analyzed.
Seems a few more things must be going haywire there: I neither produce nor sell paddles, but I'm still biting my nails in anticipation of an article describing the details of your hacksaw blade miracle key.
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WF7A on June 18, 2006
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To be totally objective here without having to wear flameproof gloves...
Vito, while it's commendable of you to submit articles to eHam, it's important to put some extra thought into their contents as to their practicality, applicability and informational value before posting it. If you fail to explain clearly any one of those criteria, you--and anyone else for that matter--are going to get hammered here...unfortunately.
"I'm a doctor, Jim, not a technical writer!"
Rich
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by N3JBH on June 18, 2006
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by KC5TTL on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
A hundred dollars to anyone that can decipher what Vito means by:
""You are bloody well right mate as my English teacher , being my "mum" and living in Canada when young, guess the limy in me "chum" hasn't faded.'"
Anyone??
---------------------------------------------------------
Vito was rasied in Canada. fine country i may add. he was taught his english by his mother. whom learnded the proper english on the Queen. therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham have no gone away. the term chum is his way of stating what we Americans would call Buddy.
and just for the record hi "eh" is our "huh"
when will i see my $100.00 dollars??? jeff
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by N3JBH on June 18, 2006
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oppps replace ham with him sorry. one of many typos i made
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KX8N on June 18, 2006
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Apparently Vito's been a ham more than most of you have been alive. I welcome ANYTHING such a man has to say. He's trying to help and contribute more than most hams I've come across who should be in their prime right now.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WB5HZE on June 18, 2006
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I think what Vito was trying to say is that a doublet (dipole) antenna approximately 33' in length (or slightly less) is useful on multiple bands (20M to 10M), in combination with balanced feedline and a tuner. If that was his intent, then his observation is valid.
I've used a similar technique (see W4RNL's website) with vertical and horizontal doublets. I prefer L.B.'s recommended 44' antenna since it works very well from 30M to 10M, with compromised operation on 40M. The rule of thumb to successfully use such a doublet appears to be 1) cut it no less than 1/3 wl on the lowest band (40M), 2) cut it no more than 4/3 wl on the highest band (10M), and 3) use TLW or a similar utility to plan the feedline run (to minimize system losses & to remain within the specs of the tuner).
73 . . . Ron W5HZE
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by K8MHZ on June 18, 2006
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"Some hams believe they can buy or make a halfwave dipole fed with a coax line for any one single band. This same one ham one of many does not realize that this cannot be done."
And this means??
I have three half wave dipoles fed with coax. They work just fine.
I am not sure at all of the purpose of this article. Anything that may be gained from it is lost in the confusion, I fear.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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KX8N
Thanks David for your support. Guess the ham radio "is" for rag chewing and insulting as well.
Just had a qso with W3IRE at the age of 90, was a great chat with my 3 watts and Slinkey home brew, in the attic and his pro 2 and his 2 elements on 40. W3IRE Located it MD.
I think it is time to pack it in and go for another hobby like taking digital pictures and print out.
The cry is for the younger generation, won't work with the support I received on this post, with the ham radio chaps. I have talked my children and grand children out of the membership, which includes 17 in all. There are better hobbies. As a matter of fact, this post was read by members of my family and was judged. I was told to get out of it, this I shall do.
Many thanks David, W6TH.
.:
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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E: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing.
by K8MHZ
"Some hams believe they can buy or make a halfwave dipole fed with a coax line for any one single band. This same one ham one of many does not realize that this cannot be done."
And this means??
I have three half wave dipoles fed with coax. They work just fine.
I am not sure at all of the purpose of this article. Anything that may be gained from it is lost in the confusion, I fear.
--------------------------------------------------
Mark.
Three half waves are not a dipole.
Should you use one half wave and feed the center of that one which is a low impedance point then the others combined will be three half waves or even to be considered a long wire. Also to be considered will be the half wave in close proximaty will be the full wave and the third on the far end will be in phase with the first half wave that is being fed. This is a one band antenna, until you find another method of feed; a open wire line or ladder line, not coax.
But you know that, don't you Mark.
.:
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by WA1RNE on June 18, 2006
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After you filter through some of the typical negative banter and have some understanding of the author's style, you may find it's possible to step back and say, sure this may be an idea that is worth further evaluation.
Basically, Vito has illustrated that an approx. 32 foot long antenna can be utilized on 20, 17, 15, 12 and 10 meters - and with additional gain on some bands - it just depends on how creative you are feeding and decoupling the radiator.
This idea is no more absurd than the famous 102 foot long 20 meter 3/2 wave dipole fed with 30 feet of ladder line and 50 ohm coax - otherwise known as a G5RV - which became amateur radio's all time "magic" multiband antenna
If I had a buck for every G5RV that's been built in the last 40 years, I'd be a very wealthy man.
Finally, given the similarities by wavelength, can YOU come up with a useful antenna system that operates on one or more bands between 20 and 10 meters that can be driven efficiently by a single feedline instead of waiting for some commercial manufacturer to do the same thing - and charge you $350-$500 for it?
Good ideas don't always have to be engineering marvels or a re-invention of the wheel in order to be worth pursuing. They are usually a compilation of one's own work, mistakes and learnings gathered from others.
73, Chris
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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KG6WLV
I believe this post is over and above your ham radio knowledge John.
Sorry John, just checked your call and you are a tech, so you don't qualify to the understanding of this post.
Should you be in need of antenna theory or electronic theory concerning RF, I am qualified to be of some assistance.
Would you enjoy having me as your Elmer, if so I can teach on emails which can be of some help.
Good luck on your next uprade John. Will be keeping an eye on you. Hi, Hi.
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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WA1RNE
Thanks Chris,
So far you are the only person that could understand the original post.
Dan N3OX was also confused and yet an engineer playing with stealth antennas to put on the market. I will have to be more on the explanation side from now on, that is if I continue to do so. I also took a few credits at his college when I worked in Maryland so am familiar with his college, University of Maryland, College Park.
I now believe it should be very clear to most and I thank you to no end Chris.
73, Vito W6TH.
.:
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by KG4ZCH on June 18, 2006
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This is just a hobby, can we move on?
Thanks Vito for the post.
73 de KG4ZCH
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N3OX on June 18, 2006
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Alright, Vito, I was willing to listen and rethink the post and read the replies and just kind of sit the rest of one out, but now you're trying to claim that I am a slick engineer trying to market my designs?
I'm offering everything I've tried to operate from my antenna restricted situation for free, with some level of detail, on my website which has no advertising.
I've never intended on selling an antenna.
I feel, as you do, that the state of ham radio technical knowledge could use a shot in the arm. I don't attribute it to license class or testing or anything, but mostly to the clever marketing that is so pervasive and that I am ... apparently ... doing?
I don't want people to buy open wire fed dipoles for $300 any more than you do.
I am, in fact, intending to use a 40 foot doublet (please note that I don't call it a dipole) for 20m, 15m and 10m for field day and am in the process of building copper tubing and house wire L networks in order to match the feedpoint impedance which is nowhere close to 50+j0. Someday, I'm going to write up a page on my website with dimensions, details and explanation about how it works, complete with antenna patterns and pictures, as I've done for many other designs.
I apologize if my comment rubbed you the wrong way. I just don't think that it's very productive to write a fairly cryptic table of numbers and then congratulate one of a very long line of confused posters on "getting it" when what you want is for hams to try these antennas on their own.
We're on the same side as far as what hams should be doing with wire. I guess I just have a different take on what makes sense to readers.
Thanks for the low blow against techs, by the way. That's the ham radio spirit. Maybe KG6WLV has something useful to say that got rejected. Maybe it's because he's got too many damn letters in his callsign, eh?
I'm glad you read enough of my profile or website to note that I was a student at UMCP. I wish you could have read far enough to know that I'm not selling anything.
73,
Dan
N3OX
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W5GNB on June 18, 2006
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I would like to know just WHAT this has to do with the CODE vs NO-CODE issue????
73's
Gary - W5GNB
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N8QBY on June 18, 2006
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As to the original post, this information can be found in any ARRL handbook, or by doing some searching on the computer, as far as the tables of values is concerned. As to the hidden message that Vito seems to want to convey, that will have to be left up to ones interpetation. How is this to help any beginners that might be reading these comical posts??
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KX8N on June 18, 2006
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"The cry is for the younger generation, won't work with the support I received on this post, with the ham radio chaps."
Don't give up on the youger guys, Vito. I'm 34 and have been a ham for 6 years. We're not all like some of the people you have seen reply here.
Take care, friend...
Dave
KX8N
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N9XCR on June 18, 2006
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----------
I believe this post is over and above your ham radio knowledge John.
Sorry John, just checked your call and you are a tech, so you don't qualify to the understanding of this post.
----------
That wasn't very nice, Vito. It was also quite unfounded. I don't think an individual's license class is truly a reflection of their knowledge. It means, at the very least, that the individual simply hasn't upgraded.
Chris
N9XCR
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 18, 2006
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.
N3OX
by N3OX
Incidentally, if you want to know antennas.
www.cebik.com
Read the WHOLE THING.
Dan
-------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
You must check my multiband antenna called:
( Impedance: one of the most confusing ).
This is multiband and one 50 ohm coax feedline.
I am sure Cebik never came up with anything like this. After all Cebik is telling you what has been put on a computer, they call it eznec. We, both you and I can do the repeat also. I like originality, how about you?
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N9XCR on June 18, 2006
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----------
Dan N3OX was also confused and yet an engineer playing with stealth antennas to put on the market.
----------
What in the world are you talking about? I've visited Dan's site many times, and he certainly isn't selling antennas. Perhaps I missed something, but he is providing a free service to anyone looking to build an antenna, not sell antennas.
BTW, nice site, Dan!
Chris
N9XCR
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by NS6Y_ on June 18, 2006
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I have to say, the article is a bit ..... cryptic.
What we all really want to know is how to build the pingy kriky antenna.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N3OX on June 18, 2006
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I'm going to have to get someone else to help you, NS6Y. I'm just a cashier.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by NS6Y_ on June 18, 2006
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It's actually pretty neat, all the lengths for different multiples of lambda for different ham freqs, handy stuff, it's just shorter than most of the articles posted here.
If you really want to get new hams out building antennas, come up with something like the instructions for the Pac-12 which are out there and for free, the instructions for the Buddipole which are likewise, and some of the articles that pepper the pages of QST, CQ, etc. on this or that "neat" antenna. They'll generally tell you what you need, like 120 feet of wire and 2 Hi-C cans and your dog's plastic water bowl or something, and walk the new ham throo it.
I think there are bigger factors at work here though - people just don't have the free time they did 30+ years ago. Kits used to cost a lot less, now they cost about the same as a finished rig and generally only sell in cases where they're much better than the built product or can't be bought built as in the case of the many pocket sized QRP rigs. Even in that area, there's a cottage industry out there of retired folks building kits for hams. Hams just don't have the time. It just made the news recently that the great American lunch hour was dead and buried years ago, and there are always stories about the insane amounts of time spent commuting, working, working 2 jobs, etc.
So, the result has been an emphasis on mobile rigs (since you spend tons of time in your car) and in easy-to-deploy stuff like QRP rigs and associated antennas, an example being an Elecraft KX1 and a Pac-12 you keep in the car to operate those odd times you can sneak some time away from all of your many frantic obligations.
Then there's the fact that the vast majority of the working-age population lives where antennas are practically forbidden and are not likely to be able to afford better for years. Don't get me started.
But yeah, $300 dipoles are kinda insane, or $400 if you add bud...dy! on the front of the name. It's just that our society has changed in insane ways over the last 30+ years and a lot of folks just don't have time to build. Goodness knows I've considered just buying a buddipole and not having to worry about it any more.
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RE: Typical EHam BS
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by W7SMJ on June 18, 2006
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>> by WB4M on June 18, 2006
Only good thing on eHam is the classified section. This site should be shut down. <<
What!? Are you kidding me? This is great entertainment! Plus for some there is educational value as well.
Perhaps Vito's prose is not verbose enough for some, but is sure does generate feedback. Some of this feedback is humorous, some of it is noise AND some of it is educational.
Thanks for the article Vito.
73,
Scott
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RE: EHAM FOREVER, LIVE ON
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by W6TH on June 19, 2006
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.
Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone.
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W8JII on June 19, 2006
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N3JBH:
Vito was rasied in Canada. fine country i may add. he was taught his english by his mother. whom learnded the proper english on the Queen. therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham have no gone away. the term chum is his way of stating what we Americans would call Buddy
1. "rasied" ?????????????
2. "whom learnded the proper english on the Queen" ???????
3. "therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham
have no gone away" ?????????????????
Amazing!----Just the person you want to come to your
defense. God help us all!
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W9PMZ on June 19, 2006
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I just can't wait for his next article.....
Maybe it will be on resistor color codes.........
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KC8PCL on June 19, 2006
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Wow, I can't beleive how much flame Vito received here with his post. And for those that would like to check me out, I am what SOME of you call A lowly TECH.
But with some of the comments here, Its no wonder we get a bad rap. This type of comments will never attract new people to the ranks of Amateur radio. Thanks for your post Vito. 73 to you.
Dave = KC8PCL
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by WW5AA on June 19, 2006
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Vito,
The comments you bring out with your posts always lets me know what the state of our society is in. Not looking good. Thanks!
73, de Lindy
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N3JBH on June 19, 2006
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" by W8JII on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N3JBH:
Vito was rasied in Canada. fine country i may add. he was taught his english by his mother. whom learnded the proper english on the Queen. therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham have no gone away. the term chum is his way of stating what we Americans would call Buddy
1. "rasied" ?????????????
2. "whom learnded the proper english on the Queen" ???????
3. "therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham
have no gone away" ?????????????????
Amazing!----Just the person you want to come to your
defense. God help us all!"
-------------------------------------------------------
Wow you sir are correct I should not try to explain anything when consuming a fathers day brew. My deepest apology to the English is a second language police.
But my God folks Vito is an older gentleman. He served this wonderful country in times of war. Has a passion for his hobby of radio. And he is simply trying to make one think about alternative views of antenna's here.
Ok maybe Vito like my self does not have the best grammar skills. Does this mean we have to disgrace him? And harass him. I don't believe we do. This was a site for folks to share there thoughts and ideas of a common hobby. I don't believe it was ever a site dedicated to the Ivy League scholar's of literature. Nor do I believe there was ever a requirement that a person hold a Doctorate from MIT either.
So please be kind and respect the folks that at least try to offer you some reading entertainment. Jeff n3jbh
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WB4ENI on June 19, 2006
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Reading the comments on Vito's post, I wonder what the !#%*& I am doing in such company. You people should crawl back under your rock.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by N5UV on June 19, 2006
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"by W9PMZ
I just can't wait for his next article.....
Maybe it will be on resistor color codes......... "
Thank you, I think your post hits the nail on the head...this is all very interesting to read Vito (and I do mean that, I got out of it what I needed), but it's HARD to understand why posts like yours get top billing on eHam.net when other articles about, oh, I don't, something like trying to get more people out to Field Day get no prominence at all...you basically have to search that kind of information out.
And these semi-technical posts are kind of obtuse...I'm sorry, Queen's English or not, its very hard to follow your train of thought...that's what KG6WLV was trying to point out Vito, and to slam him by saying this topic is above his head since he only has a tech class license is 1) irrelevant to the point and 2) unbecoming of someone with your esteem in the amateur radio service.
To KG6WLV...thanks for calling it like you see it...
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W9PMZ on June 19, 2006
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"Nor do I believe there was ever a requirement that a person hold a Doctorate from MIT either. "
To figure out the information presented herein I believe only needs a 5th grade education. So, even Jethro is capable here..........
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KC0RDG on June 19, 2006
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If you don't have anything nice to type, don't type it at all.
Easy!
Let constructive criticism take place, not mindless bashing.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KD4AC on June 19, 2006
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I would be interested to find out if KC5TTL bothered to renew his license or if he plans on letting it lapse. And with as easy as it is to acquire a general license, one would have to wonder why he hasn't upgraded.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W9OY on June 19, 2006
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I like Vito's idea.
I use my 1/4 wave 80M vert as a near 5/8ths on 30M. Add a little ol' tuner on the line and voila DXCC on 30 with no extra antenna to deploy!! And all I had to do was doodle with my four function calculator for a couple minutes. Stick that in yer Cebik and smoke it.
Like Knoffler says: money for nothing and yer chicks fer free.
73 W9OY
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by M0AFJ on June 19, 2006
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Right I have a sensible question, I, at the moment run a full size G5RV fed with 450 Ohm line and a line isolator before the coax run into the shack. I cannot get any more `top' in my garden, 102ft is the max. If I remove the line isolator and extend the 450 ohm run by 20 ft or so directly to a balanced ATU would you expect the matching to be less `peaky' and on non-harmonically related bands (10MHz and 5MHz) less RF flying around the shack....., by the way my shack is upstairs so short earth runs are a problem, although I do know about tuned counterpoises...
and if anyone suggests I make a fan dipole..., I do not have a strong enough central support.
Regards and salutations
Tim M0AFJ
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by AE7G on June 19, 2006
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I thought the patterns of similar lengths for different bands was interesting.
At the very least, this was solidly based in ham radio, unlike posts about FRS, and certainly was not a moronic, negative article, like I hate contests, the ARRL did something I don't like, ham radio is dying, I got this great idea and somebody else should do it.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KC5TTL on June 19, 2006
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W6TH
""I believe this post is over and above your ham radio knowledge John. Sorry John, just checked your call and you are a tech, so you don't qualify to the understanding of this post."""
---
OH MY GOD!!!
I was willing to let the cryptic dribble of an OM pass but how dare you tell anyone that becuase they are not a General that they cannot understand fricking antenna design.
I have seen allot of egotistical comments on this forum in the last few years -- but this one takes the cake.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W4VR on June 19, 2006
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This information is about as useful as his information about vertical antennas. He must think most hams are dummies.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W9PMZ on June 19, 2006
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"Right I have a sensible question, I, at the moment run a full size G5RV fed with 450 Ohm line and a line isolator before the coax run into the shack. I cannot get any more `top' in my garden, 102ft is the max. If I remove the line isolator and extend the 450 ohm run by 20 ft or so directly to a balanced ATU would you expect the matching to be less `peaky' and on non-harmonically related bands (10MHz and 5MHz) less RF flying around the shack....., by the way my shack is upstairs so short earth runs are a problem, although I do know about tuned counterpoises... "
See this web page,
http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/notuner.htm
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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by M0AFJ on June 19, 2006
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Thanks Paul, thats a nice idea, I physically cannot get any more wire in the air than 102ft but I suppose I could wind a `shortener' to get me to the equivalent of 132ft. Hmmmm my minds working!!
73
Tim
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WA2DTW on June 19, 2006
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What in the world is going on here? Last I checked, Ham radio was a hobby. Designing antennas is supposed to be a "fun thing" for us. To quote Riley, Please "lighten up...", guys!!
Thanks for the article, Vito.
73
Steve WA2DTW
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WF7A on June 19, 2006
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Tim, the ladder line dipole is a great antenna and is very forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong (am I inviting flame mail or what? :), but I don't think you'll notice much of a performance difference by being 30 feet shy of the suggested 132 ft. Just put it up in the air and have fun!
Ciao,
Rich
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KB9CRY on June 19, 2006
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I too fail to understand the meaning of the article. I can understand what the dimensions mean and that some lengths can be near resonant on other frequencies.
Just a poorly written article that does not explain much nor does it help the reader with examples, etc.; just a listing of information. Obviously teaching or training is not in the author's experience.
Wish that the editors would edit out these types of "articles" and present well written pieces instead.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KD4AC on June 19, 2006
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KC5TTL wrote:
"I was willing to let the cryptic dribble of an OM pass but how dare you tell anyone that becuase they are not a General that they cannot understand fricking antenna design.
I have seen allot of egotistical comments on this forum in the last few years -- but this one takes the cake."
As I recall, wasn't it YOU who started the flame wars with your very first post? What's the matter? You can dish it out but you can't take it?
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WN3VAW on June 19, 2006
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N0AH asked "Can anyone pick the winner of the AFC this year? Chiefs suck- But it is anyone elses game."
The Steelers, of course. Why? Because NFL rules mandate that Big Ben MUST wear a helmut ON the field!
But what has this got to do with Bajor, the Cardassians and the Dominion?
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KR6DJ on June 19, 2006
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"With this lesson it should be noticed that using a half wave antenna fed with coax in the center, should not be used as the VSWR will be very high and not the full amount of power will be radiated"
I guess I never made all those contacts using this exact setup and QRP at that! :-)
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 19, 2006
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.
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
by KB9CRY
I too fail to understand the meaning of the article. I can understand what the dimensions mean and that some lengths can be near resonant on other frequencies.
Just a poorly written article that does not explain much nor does it help the reader with examples, etc.; just a listing of information. Obviously teaching or training is not in the author's experience.
Wish that the editors would edit out these types of "articles" and present well written pieces instead.
---------------------------------------------------
The post was to come up with new ideas of antenna systems where different lengths of antennas could be used for multi band operation such as the Fan Dipole, Hustler mobile antennas where five bands could be mounted on a single pole. Antennas where 5/8, halfwave, 1/4 wave, 3/8 waves, etc, could be mounted either vertical or horizontal and provide self impedance matching for each and every length of antenna.
Need not be more than just two antennas for each installation. Lets say one antenna for a half wavelength for a given band and a 5/8 wavelength for another given band and then indicate the impedance matching device to match either one of both antennas.
Antennas like the R5, R7, Gap multiband antennas. These you can have fun with and will be your own design.
Lets say you want a antenna for three bands and of all different impedances mounted as a Fan Dipole, therefor 50 ohm coax cannot be used, so go for the ladder line for proper matching of these mismatch impedances to make it simple.
After reading this, the post should make sense and WA1RNE Chris had given the discription in very good form and explanation which was easy to follow. Can't understand why It was still confusing to most.
There you have it. Now lets see what is in the mind of our fellow inventers.
.:
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by K3MOV on June 19, 2006
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I note that all of the propagation gurus are currently looking into their crystal balls trying to determine exactly when we hit the end / bottom / gutter of Cycle 23. In addition to all of the information used previously to figure out the end of one solar cycle and the beginning of another, we now have the number, quality and mean spiritedness of eHam contributons to throw into the mix. After reading the posts here, it certainly seems that we are not doing much hamming, but rather occupying our time throwing hurtful jabs and barbs at each other. I certainly hope that soon our time will be spent more profitably by chasing a new one, repairing that vintage rig, actually putting up a new antenna to compare with our existing one, or doing that QRP DXing which sounds so intriguing. Hope to see you soon - not on the computer, but on the air. 73, Tom K3MOV
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KB9CRY on June 19, 2006
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The post was to come up with new ideas of antenna systems where different lengths of antennas could be used for multi band operation such as the Fan Dipole, Hustler mobile antennas where five bands could be mounted on a single pole. Antennas where 5/8, halfwave, 1/4 wave, 3/8 waves, etc, could be mounted either vertical or horizontal and provide self impedance matching for each and every length of antenna.
Need not be more than just two antennas for each installation. Lets say one antenna for a half wavelength for a given band and a 5/8 wavelength for another given band and then indicate the impedance matching device to match either one of both antennas.
Antennas like the R5, R7, Gap multiband antennas. These you can have fun with and will be your own design.
Lets say you want a antenna for three bands and of all different impedances mounted as a Fan Dipole, therefor 50 ohm coax cannot be used, so go for the ladder line for proper matching of these mismatch impedances to make it simple.
After reading this, the post should make sense and WA1RNE Chris had given the discription in very good form and explanation which was easy to follow. Can't understand why It was still confusing to most.
There you have it. Now lets see what is in the mind of our fellow inventers.
The point is that your article, as written, was not well scripted nor did it have any subject or challenge to the reader. As you've just stated, only after giving some more information like you've just done above and after another poster did some interpreting, that your article makes more sense. But it took more information than was contained in the article to make it have sense.
I guess I'm just predisposed to well written technical articles that contain at least a subject, some background information, some technical information, some examples, and some conclusions. It was not a technical article as written but should have maybe been placed in the "Technical Musings" section of eHam where folks can postulate and create discussion and thought. This isn't the first time this has happened. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from; write for and to the reader.
Phil
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WB4ENI on June 19, 2006
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>>He must think most hams are dummies<<
A well-founded belief, judging by the response elicited.
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 19, 2006
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.
KB8CRY
As you probably noticed or didn't notice, this was mentioned at the preliminary post.
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
Check out the antenna list W6TH provides for multiple system use.
This is self explantory (W6TH provides for multiple system use).
The inventors were the ones that would provide information, some technical information, etc., for others to read as the knowledge of their invention and the methods provided.
One being in the antenna field and designing is the one to supply any information of his/her progress, such as being told, "this is what I want, now build it". Provide for multiple antenna systems and use.
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by W6TH on June 19, 2006
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Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
by WB4ENI
>>He must think most hams are dummies<<
A well-founded belief, judging by the response elicited.
------------------------------------------------------
There are no dummies, it is just that many have a lack of knowledge regarding many subjects. The idea is to gain that knowledge such as knowing what can make your automobile start and run and changing gears either manually or automatically. All of this helps and to knowing that if you run over a nail there is great possibility one may get a flat tire.
Hams today do not have the logic or the creativity as hams of years gone by.---This doesn't mean they are dummies as you put it, but just lack of certain knowledge which they care less about having.---
Should they not have that knowledge, then ask before bashing that person.
.:
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KC5TTL on June 19, 2006
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KD4AC
"As I recall, wasn't it YOU who started the flame wars with your very first post? What's the matter? You can dish it out but you can't take it? ""
Dude -- all i did was point out th obvious -- that this, no matter the intent of the author, was a poorly writen, confusing article that did nothing but make people TRY to figure out what he meant...
Unlike the author, i never stated that NCTs was too stupid to know anything about antenna design. He clearly stated that -- and he clearly meant that.
So yes i can take the heat -- but never have i seen anyone state that all hams that did not have a General's license was idiots...
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by WF7A on June 19, 2006
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>>Hams today do not have the logic or the creativity as hams of years gone by.---This doesn't mean they are dummies as you put it, but just lack of certain knowledge which they care less about having.<<
Welllllll, Vito, I'd have to respectfully disagree with that broad, sweeping, generalization. I believe hams are just as resourceful, logical, and creative as earlier hams, but in different ways.
I agree with you: hams aren't dummies--it requires intelligence to become one. However, as Rabbi Jack Riemer--whom I have great respect for and I believe is the "Baal Shem Tov" of this age--said, "No matter how much you learn you die a fool." We all operate out of ignorance on one or more levels, but that's why we turn to more knowledgeable people to learn things...or unlearn and correct concepts we thought we had learned correctly earlier. However, it's not from a lack of caring that hams don't want to learn, but that they may not have the time, resources, or wisened individuals to help them...or, they don't know what questions to ask. (There's that ignorance thing again.) I think if we were to gently take their hand, instead of slapping them on the wrist as what often happens here, I think we'd all be the better for it.
Finally, I have to side with Phil (especially since I'm a technical writer by trade so I know _exactly_ what he's talking about). For an audience to appreciate what you've written, you have to be clear, concise, and write at their level--anything less and you'll insult them; anything more and you'll lose them. I think the posters here aren't (hopefully) intentionally being mean-spirited, but in their way would like you to review your articles for clarity before posting them so they can be appreciated as you'd like them to be.
Ciao,
Rich
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RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
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by KC5CQD on June 19, 2006
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***OH MY GOD!!!
I was willing to let the cryptic dribble of an OM pass but how dare you tell anyone that becuase they are not a Gene | |
