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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Multi-Antenna Fun Thing

Vito Chiarappa (W6TH) on June 18, 2006
View comments about this article!

I imagine that this information now being passed on to eHam may be of some use to many amateurs that are deeply into antenna design and as a playful toy. The following will be a list of the many antennas that can be used for more than one antenna system and one resonant antenna that can be used for other bands as well, some with more gain.

...........SINGLE BANDS................

METERS.1/2LAMBDA.1/4LAMBDA.1LAMBDA.5/8LAMBDA.

20.....33.42 ft..16.71 ft..66.84 ft..41.78ft.

17.....25.91 ft..12.95 ft..51.82ft..32.39 ft.

15.....22.23 ft..11.12 ft..44.46 ft..27.79ft.

12.....18.80 ft..9.40 ft..37.60 ft..23.50 ft.

10.....16.68 ft..8.34 ft..33.36 ft..20.85 ft.

..............MULTIPLE BANDS...............

20....................33.42 ft.

17....................32.39 ft.

17....................25.91 ft.

15....................27.79 ft.

12.........23.50 ft. (Possible)

17....................32.39 ft.

10....................33.36 ft.

.....There are a variety of more, but will leave it up to you and your antenna match box as some have a greater range than others............

This could evolve into a new design for our amateur bands and it is all up to your experiments, or determines the efficiency of something previously untried.

..................GOOD LUCK............

73, Vito W6TH.

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC5TTL on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Pure Rubbish.

One - I understand antenna design extremely well and have designed many many antennas myself -- and yet - have no clue what the purpose of this article is. It tells no one anything of value.

second - Holy cow -- where did you learn to write -- are you trying to be reflective of the 1800's special ed program for peasants??.

"""I imagine that this information now being passed on to eHam may be of some use to many amateurs that are deeply into antenna design and as a playful toy.""""

What the heck does that mean?? Playful toy?? Information now being passed?? Are thou tryeth to beith a member of the Kings's court??

----

"The following will be a list of the many antennas that can be used for more than one antenna system and one resonant antenna that can be used for other bands as well, some with more gain."

Yeah your English lost me on that one too -- and you never demonstrated which ones had more gains so how do we know which ones you were talking about.

You never talked about any of the antennas, their designs, their gains, the pros or cons, ANYTHING??? You just threw up a chart of worthless dribble.

---

"There are a variety of more, but will leave it up to you and your antenna match box as some have a greater range than others"

Like which ones??? What the heck are you talking about???

--

"This could evolve into a new design for our amateur bands and it is all up to your experiments, or determines the efficiency of something previously untried."

Totally clueless as to what you are trying to say ..!!


 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC5TTL: You don't need resonant HF antennas because you are not permitted to transmit anywhere, what with the expired license and all.

You gonna fix that?

Until then, all the antenna you need is a long wire to the high impedance input of your shortwave receiver.


Dan
N3OX
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
At the same time, I do think it would be worthwhile to at least enumerate the particular advantages and disadvantages of the various lengths on the bands you're using them on. Feedpoint impedances, gain over a dipole, maybe even half power beamwidth! Where do you put the feedpoint?

While it is useful for people to know what lengths to put up and which lengths to avoid, it is even more important that they know WHY, so that they may design their own systems for what they need. This article barely does the former, and it doesn't approach the latter.


73,
Dan
N3OX
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Incidentally, if you want to know antennas.

www.cebik.com

Read the WHOLE THING.

Dan
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N2DE on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The usual half-baked nonsense from Vito. I think he whipped out his high-tech calculator (all four basic operations! wow!) and realized that, e.g., a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands. Never mind that a half wave dipole is usually fed in the middle and a 5/8 is typically a vertical fed at the end. Nothing to pass on here to future generations of experimenting hams except a chuckle and admiration for is unfailing ability to make a fool of himself again.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KG4RUL on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
HUH?
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by RADIOGUYR2 on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
wow... this is truly the mark of a great politician. Here he does exactly the same as they do. Tell you nothing new, put out a bunch of numbers and junk that mean almost nil to the technical person. Then sit back and want someone to say. good job. here is a medal for your help in bettering mankind. (sic)

I would rather think Vio got a new computer and found excel on it that prints out a lot of numbers. Not knowing what they really ment he probably posted them and is waiting for someone else to inform him of exactly what he has.

Geee wait till he gets into quantum physics and electron theroi. Definately thinking outside the box. Way outside the box!

Hey vio why not put all the center frequencies of all the ham HF bands in and find out what multipul basic length the 8x coax should be for multi banding while your playing around.

I am sure that might be of more use to all here and their.
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by HA5RXZ on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
This is the third antenna article by Vito I have read on Eham and all three appear to be rather odd. Columns of figures, measurements of antennas in strange units such as 0.8 feet and statements such as 'the number of radials do not matter' make me wonder what is going on.

A comment by a member of the Eham editorial team would be welcome here. Maybe we should have a system of peer review before an article appears on the website?

HA5RXZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by AB2MH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hey Vito, can you explain the article? Flames aside, it's apparent that it needs some clarity.

Thanks
AB2MH.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K1OU on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What I glean from this is that this is supposed to be a handy online reference for making inverted L antennas. It can be a pretty effective antenna on multiple bands, when fed with balanced line through a tuner.

So, if you want to make a 5/8 L for 20, cut 42 feet, build a matching network. There you have it.

Or, as an acquaintance of mine in North Caroline did, put up a 3/8L cut for 160, fed it with open wire, and it also worked VERY well on 75 as a 3/4 L. 500 miles away and typically 20 over in Ohio without an amp.

There is also an article in an ARRL antenna compendium about this idea, I forget which one specifically.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by FORMER_AF0H_RH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Wait a minute!
Open your mind here!
Give the guy a chance!

Vito's article made perfect sense when I read it under the influence of LSD...
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KF6XA on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
You know, guys, Vito is 84 years old. He has been a ham, he says, almost SEVENTY years, and he is still trying to contribute to the hobby.

When I am that age, I hope just to be able even to find my way to the computer and boot Windows 2033. If I still have the ability to see and type, and to make sure my license renewal is filed, and to want to continue to contribute, I hope that people will be kind if my writing is not completely satisfactory to them.

In any case, I really think that these articles should be reviewed and the comments moderated. The original article needed editing, and many of the comments should have been excluded as pointless or off-topic.

73 and Happy Fathers' Day
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N4JBK on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC5TTL get a life, if what is written isn't up to your "standards" read something else. I commend Vito for taking the time to try to put something together for the good of the order. The type of attitude that TTL is showing is in large part what is throwing water on the fire of ham radio. Way to go!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N6AJR on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I still prefer the multi band , single feed antenna in either a one under the other configuration or in an umbrella pattern, same measurements, different antenna

AKA fan dipole:

http://www.ku4ay.net/dipole.html
http://www.qsl.net/kd7rem/antdipole.htm
http://www.hamuniverse.com/multidipole.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/ni4l/ni4ldipole.html
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/9611073.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/n2uhc/2banddipole.html
http://www.qsl.net/na4it/fandipole.html


ya got me thinking Vito, good job My Friend.

remember any antenna is better than no antenna at all :)
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
by N3OX
At the same time, I do think it would be worthwhile to at least enumerate the particular advantages and disadvantages of the various lengths on the bands you're using them on. Feedpoint impedances, gain over a dipole, maybe even half power beamwidth! Where do you put the feedpoint?

While it is useful for people to know what lengths to put up and which lengths to avoid, it is even more important that they know WHY, so that they may design their own systems for what they need. This article barely does the former, and it doesn't approach the latter.
73,
Dan
N3OX
---------------------------------------------------

The idea of this post is to discuss the in and outs of a system of; regarding the impedances to each and every length. To also give some hints and kinks to many new to ham radio of what can and cannot be done.

Consider this post as a means of getting more acquainted to antennas, an education, which most new to ham radio, then just hanging them into the air. Such as: can a half wave high impedance antenna be of any value with another.
The fan dipole can and now what will be your choice?

Is it possible to have a halfwave antenna for 75 meters fed with coax and can it be used for the forty meter band?

Remember a OCF antenna is resonant on one or two bands. The other frequencies are not resonant and work on related harmonics, some becoming long wire antennas.
-----------------------------------------------------


KC5TTL mentions:
Are thou tryeth to beith a member of the Kings's court??

You are bloody well right mate as my English teacher , being my "mum" and living in Canada when young, guess the limy in me "chum" hasn't faded. Remember, our forefathers George Washington and the writers of the Constitution of these United States and the Bill of Rights were American "borne" of English decent. Now check out their English and have yourself a ball. That is if you "chuse".

W6TH
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing.
by DJ8GO
The usual half-baked nonsense from Vito. I think he whipped out his high-tech calculator (all four basic operations! wow!) and realized that, e.g., a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands. Never mind that a half wave dipole is usually fed in the middle and a 5/8 is typically a vertical fed at the end. Nothing to pass on here to future generations of experimenting hams except a chuckle and admiration for is unfailing ability to make a fool of himself again.
---------------------------------------------------
a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands.
-----------------------------------------------------

You gave me the answer I was looking for. You followed my instructions quite well.

Thank you, thank you.
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

Please read this very carefully and try to understand.

Some hams believe they can buy or make a halfwave dipole fed with a coax line for any one single band. This same one ham one of many does not realize that this cannot be done.

John D. Kraus (SK) came along and said that it is not good practice to do so as the standing wave ratio would be high and very little amount of rf would be radiated.. Therefore John Kraus, in place of the coax line, told us hams many years ago to remove the coax line and use a open wire balanced line, therefore this same halfwave antenna can be used as a multiple band antenna. Most hams use the 450 ohm line today called the ladder line. Years ago, hams home brewed their own open wire line, going for the 600 ohm Z, which was a good match for the transmitters that were used in those era's. Tuners or match boxes were not always used and the final amplifiers were linked coupled to the open wire line with the antenna attached. Shortly later there were methods of where the feed line were matched by several different methods.

With this lesson it should be noticed that using a half wave antenna fed with coax in the center, should not be used as the VSWR will be very high and not the full amount of power will be radiated.


Remember that the Center Fed Zepp, the impedance changes from high to low for each given band. It is possible to have a high impedance antenna combined with a lower impedance, by different methods of feeding the antenna. Such as feeding both a half wave and a 5/8 wave by a feed method.
.:What method of mixed match can you come up with?:.

.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
DJ8GO. Ulrich
You may not find it possible to do the matching, but my friend I can. So it comes to the point that I can do what you can't do.

You say you can't do this, well my friend I can.
...a wire for a half wave on 20m has a similar length as a wire for 5/8 wavelengths on 17m, and he's hoping that a matchbox will fudge the difference if he uses that wire on both bands.
--------------------------------------------------
Yes Ulrich, I can do this matching and even add one or two more. You seem to not know enough about impedance matching.
Are you that old whereby you cannot be taught such as an old dog to be taught new tricks?
No wonder your paddle is not selling, poor design eh?
.:
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
oh boy...
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC5TTL on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
A hundred dollars to anyone that can decipher what Vito means by:

""You are bloody well right mate as my English teacher , being my "mum" and living in Canada when young, guess the limy in me "chum" hasn't faded.'"

Anyone??

Bueller??
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
N3OX, Dan
While it is useful for people to know what lengths to put up and which lengths to avoid, it is even more important that they know WHY, so that they may design their own systems for what they need. This article barely does the former, and it doesn't approach the latter.
.....................................................

The idea of this post was to find the great antenna people to come up with some new ideas. Why leave it all up to those that manufacture at a great price. I thought, which I feel I am wrong, there would be a few ham readers that could piece this all together and come up with a few good samples to have the old building days come back to life.
Americans being creative and using logic?... Seems the engineers of the past would surely have many good suggestions by now.
Good that we have companies that still manufacture the antennas we have today or we would be at a loss.

73, W6TH
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N2DE on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito,
rather than demonstrating your proficiency with a pocket calculator dividing a few numbers and claiming that elementary school math provides deep new insights, why don't you propose an antenna design, feedline and all, with specific characteristics that can be tested or analyzed.

Seems a few more things must be going haywire there: I neither produce nor sell paddles, but I'm still biting my nails in anticipation of an article describing the details of your hacksaw blade miracle key.
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
To be totally objective here without having to wear flameproof gloves...

Vito, while it's commendable of you to submit articles to eHam, it's important to put some extra thought into their contents as to their practicality, applicability and informational value before posting it. If you fail to explain clearly any one of those criteria, you--and anyone else for that matter--are going to get hammered here...unfortunately.

"I'm a doctor, Jim, not a technical writer!"

Rich
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Oops--Editorial Police:

"...posting _them_..."
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I knew I should have studied pig-latin.....
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3JBH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
by KC5TTL on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
A hundred dollars to anyone that can decipher what Vito means by:

""You are bloody well right mate as my English teacher , being my "mum" and living in Canada when young, guess the limy in me "chum" hasn't faded.'"

Anyone??

---------------------------------------------------------

Vito was rasied in Canada. fine country i may add. he was taught his english by his mother. whom learnded the proper english on the Queen. therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham have no gone away. the term chum is his way of stating what we Americans would call Buddy.

and just for the record hi "eh" is our "huh"

when will i see my $100.00 dollars??? jeff
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3JBH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
oppps replace ham with him sorry. one of many typos i made
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KX8N on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Apparently Vito's been a ham more than most of you have been alive. I welcome ANYTHING such a man has to say. He's trying to help and contribute more than most hams I've come across who should be in their prime right now.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WB5HZE on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I think what Vito was trying to say is that a doublet (dipole) antenna approximately 33' in length (or slightly less) is useful on multiple bands (20M to 10M), in combination with balanced feedline and a tuner. If that was his intent, then his observation is valid.

I've used a similar technique (see W4RNL's website) with vertical and horizontal doublets. I prefer L.B.'s recommended 44' antenna since it works very well from 30M to 10M, with compromised operation on 40M. The rule of thumb to successfully use such a doublet appears to be 1) cut it no less than 1/3 wl on the lowest band (40M), 2) cut it no more than 4/3 wl on the highest band (10M), and 3) use TLW or a similar utility to plan the feedline run (to minimize system losses & to remain within the specs of the tuner).

73 . . . Ron W5HZE
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K8MHZ on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Some hams believe they can buy or make a halfwave dipole fed with a coax line for any one single band. This same one ham one of many does not realize that this cannot be done."

And this means??

I have three half wave dipoles fed with coax. They work just fine.

I am not sure at all of the purpose of this article. Anything that may be gained from it is lost in the confusion, I fear.

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
KX8N

Thanks David for your support. Guess the ham radio "is" for rag chewing and insulting as well.

Just had a qso with W3IRE at the age of 90, was a great chat with my 3 watts and Slinkey home brew, in the attic and his pro 2 and his 2 elements on 40. W3IRE Located it MD.

I think it is time to pack it in and go for another hobby like taking digital pictures and print out.

The cry is for the younger generation, won't work with the support I received on this post, with the ham radio chaps. I have talked my children and grand children out of the membership, which includes 17 in all. There are better hobbies. As a matter of fact, this post was read by members of my family and was judged. I was told to get out of it, this I shall do.

Many thanks David, W6TH.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
E: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing.
by K8MHZ
"Some hams believe they can buy or make a halfwave dipole fed with a coax line for any one single band. This same one ham one of many does not realize that this cannot be done."

And this means??

I have three half wave dipoles fed with coax. They work just fine.

I am not sure at all of the purpose of this article. Anything that may be gained from it is lost in the confusion, I fear.
--------------------------------------------------
Mark.
Three half waves are not a dipole.

Should you use one half wave and feed the center of that one which is a low impedance point then the others combined will be three half waves or even to be considered a long wire. Also to be considered will be the half wave in close proximaty will be the full wave and the third on the far end will be in phase with the first half wave that is being fed. This is a one band antenna, until you find another method of feed; a open wire line or ladder line, not coax.

But you know that, don't you Mark.
.:
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WA1RNE on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
After you filter through some of the typical negative banter and have some understanding of the author's style, you may find it's possible to step back and say, sure this may be an idea that is worth further evaluation.



Basically, Vito has illustrated that an approx. 32 foot long antenna can be utilized on 20, 17, 15, 12 and 10 meters - and with additional gain on some bands - it just depends on how creative you are feeding and decoupling the radiator.


This idea is no more absurd than the famous 102 foot long 20 meter 3/2 wave dipole fed with 30 feet of ladder line and 50 ohm coax - otherwise known as a G5RV - which became amateur radio's all time "magic" multiband antenna


If I had a buck for every G5RV that's been built in the last 40 years, I'd be a very wealthy man.


Finally, given the similarities by wavelength, can YOU come up with a useful antenna system that operates on one or more bands between 20 and 10 meters that can be driven efficiently by a single feedline instead of waiting for some commercial manufacturer to do the same thing - and charge you $350-$500 for it?


Good ideas don't always have to be engineering marvels or a re-invention of the wheel in order to be worth pursuing. They are usually a compilation of one's own work, mistakes and learnings gathered from others.



73, Chris
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
KG6WLV

I believe this post is over and above your ham radio knowledge John.

Sorry John, just checked your call and you are a tech, so you don't qualify to the understanding of this post.

Should you be in need of antenna theory or electronic theory concerning RF, I am qualified to be of some assistance.

Would you enjoy having me as your Elmer, if so I can teach on emails which can be of some help.

Good luck on your next uprade John. Will be keeping an eye on you. Hi, Hi.
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

WA1RNE

Thanks Chris,

So far you are the only person that could understand the original post.

Dan N3OX was also confused and yet an engineer playing with stealth antennas to put on the market. I will have to be more on the explanation side from now on, that is if I continue to do so. I also took a few credits at his college when I worked in Maryland so am familiar with his college, University of Maryland, College Park.

I now believe it should be very clear to most and I thank you to no end Chris.

73, Vito W6TH.
.:
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KG4ZCH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
This is just a hobby, can we move on?

Thanks Vito for the post.

73 de KG4ZCH
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The out was given, and taken. :o)
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alright, Vito, I was willing to listen and rethink the post and read the replies and just kind of sit the rest of one out, but now you're trying to claim that I am a slick engineer trying to market my designs?

I'm offering everything I've tried to operate from my antenna restricted situation for free, with some level of detail, on my website which has no advertising.

I've never intended on selling an antenna.

I feel, as you do, that the state of ham radio technical knowledge could use a shot in the arm. I don't attribute it to license class or testing or anything, but mostly to the clever marketing that is so pervasive and that I am ... apparently ... doing?

I don't want people to buy open wire fed dipoles for $300 any more than you do.

I am, in fact, intending to use a 40 foot doublet (please note that I don't call it a dipole) for 20m, 15m and 10m for field day and am in the process of building copper tubing and house wire L networks in order to match the feedpoint impedance which is nowhere close to 50+j0. Someday, I'm going to write up a page on my website with dimensions, details and explanation about how it works, complete with antenna patterns and pictures, as I've done for many other designs.

I apologize if my comment rubbed you the wrong way. I just don't think that it's very productive to write a fairly cryptic table of numbers and then congratulate one of a very long line of confused posters on "getting it" when what you want is for hams to try these antennas on their own.

We're on the same side as far as what hams should be doing with wire. I guess I just have a different take on what makes sense to readers.

Thanks for the low blow against techs, by the way. That's the ham radio spirit. Maybe KG6WLV has something useful to say that got rejected. Maybe it's because he's got too many damn letters in his callsign, eh?

I'm glad you read enough of my profile or website to note that I was a student at UMCP. I wish you could have read far enough to know that I'm not selling anything.

73,
Dan
N3OX
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W5GNB on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I would like to know just WHAT this has to do with the CODE vs NO-CODE issue????

73's
Gary - W5GNB
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
As to the original post, this information can be found in any ARRL handbook, or by doing some searching on the computer, as far as the tables of values is concerned. As to the hidden message that Vito seems to want to convey, that will have to be left up to ones interpetation. How is this to help any beginners that might be reading these comical posts??
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KX8N on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"The cry is for the younger generation, won't work with the support I received on this post, with the ham radio chaps."

Don't give up on the youger guys, Vito. I'm 34 and have been a ham for 6 years. We're not all like some of the people you have seen reply here.

Take care, friend...

Dave
KX8N
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N9XCR on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
----------
I believe this post is over and above your ham radio knowledge John.

Sorry John, just checked your call and you are a tech, so you don't qualify to the understanding of this post.
----------

That wasn't very nice, Vito. It was also quite unfounded. I don't think an individual's license class is truly a reflection of their knowledge. It means, at the very least, that the individual simply hasn't upgraded.

Chris
N9XCR
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
N3OX

by N3OX
Incidentally, if you want to know antennas.

www.cebik.com

Read the WHOLE THING.

Dan
-------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
You must check my multiband antenna called:

( Impedance: one of the most confusing ).
This is multiband and one 50 ohm coax feedline.

I am sure Cebik never came up with anything like this. After all Cebik is telling you what has been put on a computer, they call it eznec. We, both you and I can do the repeat also. I like originality, how about you?

.:
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I think you should share whatever you are drinking.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N9XCR on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
----------
Dan N3OX was also confused and yet an engineer playing with stealth antennas to put on the market.
----------

What in the world are you talking about? I've visited Dan's site many times, and he certainly isn't selling antennas. Perhaps I missed something, but he is providing a free service to anyone looking to build an antenna, not sell antennas.

BTW, nice site, Dan!

Chris
N9XCR
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by NS6Y_ on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have to say, the article is a bit ..... cryptic.

What we all really want to know is how to build the pingy kriky antenna.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I'm going to have to get someone else to help you, NS6Y. I'm just a cashier.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by NS6Y_ on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It's actually pretty neat, all the lengths for different multiples of lambda for different ham freqs, handy stuff, it's just shorter than most of the articles posted here.

If you really want to get new hams out building antennas, come up with something like the instructions for the Pac-12 which are out there and for free, the instructions for the Buddipole which are likewise, and some of the articles that pepper the pages of QST, CQ, etc. on this or that "neat" antenna. They'll generally tell you what you need, like 120 feet of wire and 2 Hi-C cans and your dog's plastic water bowl or something, and walk the new ham throo it.

I think there are bigger factors at work here though - people just don't have the free time they did 30+ years ago. Kits used to cost a lot less, now they cost about the same as a finished rig and generally only sell in cases where they're much better than the built product or can't be bought built as in the case of the many pocket sized QRP rigs. Even in that area, there's a cottage industry out there of retired folks building kits for hams. Hams just don't have the time. It just made the news recently that the great American lunch hour was dead and buried years ago, and there are always stories about the insane amounts of time spent commuting, working, working 2 jobs, etc.

So, the result has been an emphasis on mobile rigs (since you spend tons of time in your car) and in easy-to-deploy stuff like QRP rigs and associated antennas, an example being an Elecraft KX1 and a Pac-12 you keep in the car to operate those odd times you can sneak some time away from all of your many frantic obligations.

Then there's the fact that the vast majority of the working-age population lives where antennas are practically forbidden and are not likely to be able to afford better for years. Don't get me started.

But yeah, $300 dipoles are kinda insane, or $400 if you add bud...dy! on the front of the name. It's just that our society has changed in insane ways over the last 30+ years and a lot of folks just don't have time to build. Goodness knows I've considered just buying a buddipole and not having to worry about it any more.
 
RE: Typical EHam BS  
by W7SMJ on June 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>> by WB4M on June 18, 2006
Only good thing on eHam is the classified section. This site should be shut down. <<

What!? Are you kidding me? This is great entertainment! Plus for some there is educational value as well.

Perhaps Vito's prose is not verbose enough for some, but is sure does generate feedback. Some of this feedback is humorous, some of it is noise AND some of it is educational.

Thanks for the article Vito.

73,
Scott
 
RE: EHAM FOREVER, LIVE ON  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W8JII on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N3JBH:
Vito was rasied in Canada. fine country i may add. he was taught his english by his mother. whom learnded the proper english on the Queen. therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham have no gone away. the term chum is his way of stating what we Americans would call Buddy


1. "rasied" ?????????????
2. "whom learnded the proper english on the Queen" ???????
3. "therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham
have no gone away" ?????????????????

Amazing!----Just the person you want to come to your
defense. God help us all!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I just can't wait for his next article.....

Maybe it will be on resistor color codes.........

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC8PCL on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, I can't beleive how much flame Vito received here with his post. And for those that would like to check me out, I am what SOME of you call A lowly TECH.
But with some of the comments here, Its no wonder we get a bad rap. This type of comments will never attract new people to the ranks of Amateur radio. Thanks for your post Vito. 73 to you.
Dave = KC8PCL
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WW5AA on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito,

The comments you bring out with your posts always lets me know what the state of our society is in. Not looking good. Thanks!

73, de Lindy
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3JBH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
" by W8JII on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N3JBH:
Vito was rasied in Canada. fine country i may add. he was taught his english by his mother. whom learnded the proper english on the Queen. therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham have no gone away. the term chum is his way of stating what we Americans would call Buddy


1. "rasied" ?????????????
2. "whom learnded the proper english on the Queen" ???????
3. "therefore he also say the Old English way's in ham
have no gone away" ?????????????????

Amazing!----Just the person you want to come to your
defense. God help us all!"
-------------------------------------------------------

Wow you sir are correct I should not try to explain anything when consuming a fathers day brew. My deepest apology to the English is a second language police.

But my God folks Vito is an older gentleman. He served this wonderful country in times of war. Has a passion for his hobby of radio. And he is simply trying to make one think about alternative views of antenna's here.

Ok maybe Vito like my self does not have the best grammar skills. Does this mean we have to disgrace him? And harass him. I don't believe we do. This was a site for folks to share there thoughts and ideas of a common hobby. I don't believe it was ever a site dedicated to the Ivy League scholar's of literature. Nor do I believe there was ever a requirement that a person hold a Doctorate from MIT either.

So please be kind and respect the folks that at least try to offer you some reading entertainment. Jeff n3jbh
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WB4ENI on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Reading the comments on Vito's post, I wonder what the !#%*& I am doing in such company. You people should crawl back under your rock.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N5UV on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"by W9PMZ
I just can't wait for his next article.....

Maybe it will be on resistor color codes......... "

Thank you, I think your post hits the nail on the head...this is all very interesting to read Vito (and I do mean that, I got out of it what I needed), but it's HARD to understand why posts like yours get top billing on eHam.net when other articles about, oh, I don't, something like trying to get more people out to Field Day get no prominence at all...you basically have to search that kind of information out.

And these semi-technical posts are kind of obtuse...I'm sorry, Queen's English or not, its very hard to follow your train of thought...that's what KG6WLV was trying to point out Vito, and to slam him by saying this topic is above his head since he only has a tech class license is 1) irrelevant to the point and 2) unbecoming of someone with your esteem in the amateur radio service.

To KG6WLV...thanks for calling it like you see it...


 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Nor do I believe there was ever a requirement that a person hold a Doctorate from MIT either. "

To figure out the information presented herein I believe only needs a 5th grade education. So, even Jethro is capable here..........

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC0RDG on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
If you don't have anything nice to type, don't type it at all.

Easy!

Let constructive criticism take place, not mindless bashing.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KD4AC on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I would be interested to find out if KC5TTL bothered to renew his license or if he plans on letting it lapse. And with as easy as it is to acquire a general license, one would have to wonder why he hasn't upgraded.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9OY on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I like Vito's idea.

I use my 1/4 wave 80M vert as a near 5/8ths on 30M. Add a little ol' tuner on the line and voila DXCC on 30 with no extra antenna to deploy!! And all I had to do was doodle with my four function calculator for a couple minutes. Stick that in yer Cebik and smoke it.

Like Knoffler says: money for nothing and yer chicks fer free.

73 W9OY
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by M0AFJ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Right I have a sensible question, I, at the moment run a full size G5RV fed with 450 Ohm line and a line isolator before the coax run into the shack. I cannot get any more `top' in my garden, 102ft is the max. If I remove the line isolator and extend the 450 ohm run by 20 ft or so directly to a balanced ATU would you expect the matching to be less `peaky' and on non-harmonically related bands (10MHz and 5MHz) less RF flying around the shack....., by the way my shack is upstairs so short earth runs are a problem, although I do know about tuned counterpoises...
and if anyone suggests I make a fan dipole..., I do not have a strong enough central support.
Regards and salutations
Tim M0AFJ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by RobertKoernerExAE7G on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I thought the patterns of similar lengths for different bands was interesting.

At the very least, this was solidly based in ham radio, unlike posts about FRS, and certainly was not a moronic, negative article, like I hate contests, the ARRL did something I don't like, ham radio is dying, I got this great idea and somebody else should do it.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC5TTL on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH

""I believe this post is over and above your ham radio knowledge John. Sorry John, just checked your call and you are a tech, so you don't qualify to the understanding of this post."""

---

OH MY GOD!!!

I was willing to let the cryptic dribble of an OM pass but how dare you tell anyone that becuase they are not a General that they cannot understand fricking antenna design.

I have seen allot of egotistical comments on this forum in the last few years -- but this one takes the cake.

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W4VR on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
This information is about as useful as his information about vertical antennas. He must think most hams are dummies.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Right I have a sensible question, I, at the moment run a full size G5RV fed with 450 Ohm line and a line isolator before the coax run into the shack. I cannot get any more `top' in my garden, 102ft is the max. If I remove the line isolator and extend the 450 ohm run by 20 ft or so directly to a balanced ATU would you expect the matching to be less `peaky' and on non-harmonically related bands (10MHz and 5MHz) less RF flying around the shack....., by the way my shack is upstairs so short earth runs are a problem, although I do know about tuned counterpoises... "

See this web page,

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/notuner.htm

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by M0AFJ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks Paul, thats a nice idea, I physically cannot get any more wire in the air than 102ft but I suppose I could wind a `shortener' to get me to the equivalent of 132ft. Hmmmm my minds working!!
73
Tim
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by M0AFJ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
SORRY Carl!!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WA2DTW on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What in the world is going on here? Last I checked, Ham radio was a hobby. Designing antennas is supposed to be a "fun thing" for us. To quote Riley, Please "lighten up...", guys!!
Thanks for the article, Vito.
73
Steve WA2DTW
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Tim, the ladder line dipole is a great antenna and is very forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong (am I inviting flame mail or what? :), but I don't think you'll notice much of a performance difference by being 30 feet shy of the suggested 132 ft. Just put it up in the air and have fun!

Ciao,
Rich
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KB9CRY on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I too fail to understand the meaning of the article. I can understand what the dimensions mean and that some lengths can be near resonant on other frequencies.

Just a poorly written article that does not explain much nor does it help the reader with examples, etc.; just a listing of information. Obviously teaching or training is not in the author's experience.

Wish that the editors would edit out these types of "articles" and present well written pieces instead.

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KD4AC on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC5TTL wrote:

"I was willing to let the cryptic dribble of an OM pass but how dare you tell anyone that becuase they are not a General that they cannot understand fricking antenna design.

I have seen allot of egotistical comments on this forum in the last few years -- but this one takes the cake."

As I recall, wasn't it YOU who started the flame wars with your very first post? What's the matter? You can dish it out but you can't take it?
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WN3VAW on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N0AH asked "Can anyone pick the winner of the AFC this year? Chiefs suck- But it is anyone elses game."

The Steelers, of course. Why? Because NFL rules mandate that Big Ben MUST wear a helmut ON the field!

But what has this got to do with Bajor, the Cardassians and the Dominion?
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KR6DJ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"With this lesson it should be noticed that using a half wave antenna fed with coax in the center, should not be used as the VSWR will be very high and not the full amount of power will be radiated"

I guess I never made all those contacts using this exact setup and QRP at that! :-)

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
by KB9CRY
I too fail to understand the meaning of the article. I can understand what the dimensions mean and that some lengths can be near resonant on other frequencies.

Just a poorly written article that does not explain much nor does it help the reader with examples, etc.; just a listing of information. Obviously teaching or training is not in the author's experience.

Wish that the editors would edit out these types of "articles" and present well written pieces instead.
---------------------------------------------------

The post was to come up with new ideas of antenna systems where different lengths of antennas could be used for multi band operation such as the Fan Dipole, Hustler mobile antennas where five bands could be mounted on a single pole. Antennas where 5/8, halfwave, 1/4 wave, 3/8 waves, etc, could be mounted either vertical or horizontal and provide self impedance matching for each and every length of antenna.

Need not be more than just two antennas for each installation. Lets say one antenna for a half wavelength for a given band and a 5/8 wavelength for another given band and then indicate the impedance matching device to match either one of both antennas.

Antennas like the R5, R7, Gap multiband antennas. These you can have fun with and will be your own design.

Lets say you want a antenna for three bands and of all different impedances mounted as a Fan Dipole, therefor 50 ohm coax cannot be used, so go for the ladder line for proper matching of these mismatch impedances to make it simple.

After reading this, the post should make sense and WA1RNE Chris had given the discription in very good form and explanation which was easy to follow. Can't understand why It was still confusing to most.

There you have it. Now lets see what is in the mind of our fellow inventers.

.:
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K3MOV on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I note that all of the propagation gurus are currently looking into their crystal balls trying to determine exactly when we hit the end / bottom / gutter of Cycle 23. In addition to all of the information used previously to figure out the end of one solar cycle and the beginning of another, we now have the number, quality and mean spiritedness of eHam contributons to throw into the mix. After reading the posts here, it certainly seems that we are not doing much hamming, but rather occupying our time throwing hurtful jabs and barbs at each other. I certainly hope that soon our time will be spent more profitably by chasing a new one, repairing that vintage rig, actually putting up a new antenna to compare with our existing one, or doing that QRP DXing which sounds so intriguing. Hope to see you soon - not on the computer, but on the air. 73, Tom K3MOV
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KB9CRY on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The post was to come up with new ideas of antenna systems where different lengths of antennas could be used for multi band operation such as the Fan Dipole, Hustler mobile antennas where five bands could be mounted on a single pole. Antennas where 5/8, halfwave, 1/4 wave, 3/8 waves, etc, could be mounted either vertical or horizontal and provide self impedance matching for each and every length of antenna.

Need not be more than just two antennas for each installation. Lets say one antenna for a half wavelength for a given band and a 5/8 wavelength for another given band and then indicate the impedance matching device to match either one of both antennas.

Antennas like the R5, R7, Gap multiband antennas. These you can have fun with and will be your own design.

Lets say you want a antenna for three bands and of all different impedances mounted as a Fan Dipole, therefor 50 ohm coax cannot be used, so go for the ladder line for proper matching of these mismatch impedances to make it simple.

After reading this, the post should make sense and WA1RNE Chris had given the discription in very good form and explanation which was easy to follow. Can't understand why It was still confusing to most.

There you have it. Now lets see what is in the mind of our fellow inventers.



The point is that your article, as written, was not well scripted nor did it have any subject or challenge to the reader. As you've just stated, only after giving some more information like you've just done above and after another poster did some interpreting, that your article makes more sense. But it took more information than was contained in the article to make it have sense.

I guess I'm just predisposed to well written technical articles that contain at least a subject, some background information, some technical information, some examples, and some conclusions. It was not a technical article as written but should have maybe been placed in the "Technical Musings" section of eHam where folks can postulate and create discussion and thought. This isn't the first time this has happened. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from; write for and to the reader.

Phil
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WB4ENI on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>>He must think most hams are dummies<<

A well-founded belief, judging by the response elicited.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

KB8CRY
As you probably noticed or didn't notice, this was mentioned at the preliminary post.

Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
Check out the antenna list W6TH provides for multiple system use.
This is self explantory (W6TH provides for multiple system use).

The inventors were the ones that would provide information, some technical information, etc., for others to read as the knowledge of their invention and the methods provided.

One being in the antenna field and designing is the one to supply any information of his/her progress, such as being told, "this is what I want, now build it". Provide for multiple antenna systems and use.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
by WB4ENI
>>He must think most hams are dummies<<

A well-founded belief, judging by the response elicited.
------------------------------------------------------

There are no dummies, it is just that many have a lack of knowledge regarding many subjects. The idea is to gain that knowledge such as knowing what can make your automobile start and run and changing gears either manually or automatically. All of this helps and to knowing that if you run over a nail there is great possibility one may get a flat tire.

Hams today do not have the logic or the creativity as hams of years gone by.---This doesn't mean they are dummies as you put it, but just lack of certain knowledge which they care less about having.---

Should they not have that knowledge, then ask before bashing that person.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC5TTL on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KD4AC

"As I recall, wasn't it YOU who started the flame wars with your very first post? What's the matter? You can dish it out but you can't take it? ""

Dude -- all i did was point out th obvious -- that this, no matter the intent of the author, was a poorly writen, confusing article that did nothing but make people TRY to figure out what he meant...

Unlike the author, i never stated that NCTs was too stupid to know anything about antenna design. He clearly stated that -- and he clearly meant that.

So yes i can take the heat -- but never have i seen anyone state that all hams that did not have a General's license was idiots...
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>>Hams today do not have the logic or the creativity as hams of years gone by.---This doesn't mean they are dummies as you put it, but just lack of certain knowledge which they care less about having.<<

Welllllll, Vito, I'd have to respectfully disagree with that broad, sweeping, generalization. I believe hams are just as resourceful, logical, and creative as earlier hams, but in different ways.

I agree with you: hams aren't dummies--it requires intelligence to become one. However, as Rabbi Jack Riemer--whom I have great respect for and I believe is the "Baal Shem Tov" of this age--said, "No matter how much you learn you die a fool." We all operate out of ignorance on one or more levels, but that's why we turn to more knowledgeable people to learn things...or unlearn and correct concepts we thought we had learned correctly earlier. However, it's not from a lack of caring that hams don't want to learn, but that they may not have the time, resources, or wisened individuals to help them...or, they don't know what questions to ask. (There's that ignorance thing again.) I think if we were to gently take their hand, instead of slapping them on the wrist as what often happens here, I think we'd all be the better for it.

Finally, I have to side with Phil (especially since I'm a technical writer by trade so I know _exactly_ what he's talking about). For an audience to appreciate what you've written, you have to be clear, concise, and write at their level--anything less and you'll insult them; anything more and you'll lose them. I think the posters here aren't (hopefully) intentionally being mean-spirited, but in their way would like you to review your articles for clarity before posting them so they can be appreciated as you'd like them to be.

Ciao,
Rich
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC5CQD on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
***OH MY GOD!!!

I was willing to let the cryptic dribble of an OM pass but how dare you tell anyone that becuase they are not a General that they cannot understand fricking antenna design.

I have seen allot of egotistical comments on this forum in the last few years -- but this one takes the cake.***



Not "dribble". It's "drivel".

Not "fricking". It's "frigging".

Not "allot". It's "a lot".

If you're going to attack people then I suggest you vacate the glass house, mon freir.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

With all the smarts we have posting, I still do not see a new antenna design.

It can't be over your head... You can easily come up to good engineering practices. You have no need for a technical writer who gets all of his information from the design engineer and the technical writer just puts it in writing.

Put one on now.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KY6R on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The best idea that I have received via the internet came from W4RNL (L.B Cebik's) web site:

For 80 - 20 meters use an 88' doublet fed with ladder line, and for 20 - 10 meters, use a 44' doublet fed with ladder line. 1/2 w.l up on the lowest band you are cutting the doublet for (if you can - as high as you can if you can't go up 1/2 w.l).

I used 450 foot ladder line, a DX Engineering 1:1 current choke with high quality coax into the shack.

I have used three modern antenna tuners - Heathkit SA series, (older and better built) Ameritron ATR-30, and my favorite, the Palstar AT5K.

Then I became a convert to the truly modern world - SteppIR BigIR vertical with 64 buried radials for 40 - 10M and SteppIR w element yagi up 50' for 20 - 6M.

Both are stealth, both resonant on every band, and the tuner is sitting on a shelf in the garage.

But I worked 291 entities with the wire doublets as suggested by L.B. Cebik. And those antennas were such a tiny cost and great bang for the buck (and more stealth) than the things sticking up all over my backyard now (of course I think they are beautiful) . . .

Rich

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"With all the smarts we have posting, I still do not see a new antenna design. "

Good question Vito!

Your the man with the calculator, give us one.

I tremble in anticipation of your pronouncements of fact......
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I think that Vito thinks he knows what he is saying but what comes out in his words are anything but clear and to the point comments. Vito, after reading the many responses about your article and how it was written, do you think that maybe, just maybe you could use some help in expressing your thoughs?? Just because you have written it, doesn't mean that anyone can understand what direction you are coming from. You may have some technical knowledge but by god man, we can't read your mind. Good intentions no doubt.
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WB2YIP on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito:

Many tanks for your imagining.
73

Chuck
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

W9PMZ

I'll take you up on that. That is if you agree to my calculations of the antenna length and frequency in use
and then you caluculate the impedance matching.

Let me explain again.

I will put three antennas of three different frequencies and all you have to do is to calculate the impedance matching for each. I will them find a feed system that will satisfy your equation.

Seems fair to me.

How does this grab you?

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

N8QBY Pat

When I see a extra call issued to some one, in my old age I consider this chap to be from the old days. Back in the thirties before the extra class we had the hams with a call called class "A". The hams with those calls were self taught engineers and were very sharp with math and calculations of antennas, impedance, power and so forth.

With the class "A" operators I would not have to go into much detail explaining such as I had on this post. I forgot the changes in ham radio structure and seeing you were an extra class I would not have to go into deep explanation and that is what happened.

Next post if I do consider another one , I will make it as simple as I can where an eleven year old will able to cipher not only my writing, but even my thoughts.
73 Pat and thanks for stopping by.

W6TH
.:
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N1IR on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Uhhh...what?!

 
RE: Typical EHam BS  
by K8MHZ on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"E: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing.
by K8MHZ
"Some hams believe they can buy or make a halfwave dipole fed with a coax line for any one single band. This same one ham one of many does not realize that this cannot be done."

And this means??

I have three half wave dipoles fed with coax. They work just fine.

I am not sure at all of the purpose of this article. Anything that may be gained from it is lost in the confusion, I fear.
--------------------------------------------------
Mark.
Three half waves are not a dipole.

Should you use one half wave and feed the center of that one which is a low impedance point then the others combined will be three half waves or even to be considered a long wire. Also to be considered will be the half wave in close proximaty will be the full wave and the third on the far end will be in phase with the first half wave that is being fed. This is a one band antenna, until you find another method of feed; a open wire line or ladder line, not coax.

But you know that, don't you Mark."



Vito,

I meant that I had three SEPARATE antennas.....

Nevermind. I hope you are having fun. Really I do.

73,

Mark K8MHZ
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito, it was just a matter of your presentation of the material. The rest we can do as you further explained yourself. If this means that all the readers are a lesser ham for not picking this up, well, so goes this article.
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KY6R on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
FAN VERTICAL [heh heh] . . . or "vertical tree"

Bury or staple 60 or more radials in / on the ground, and then use multiple vertical elements - an inverted L when you need to "cheat" on the height for the low bands (or go with a "T" to eliminate the high angle / horizontal component). Have multiple vertical wires for [some] of the bands you want - use Vito's numbers to get 2 bands for the price of one as far as the number of vertical wires is concerned. But use an antenna analyzer and measure / cut / measure / cut, etc.

OR

Create the largest vertical wire element you can - T it - so you get cap hats on the lower bands and then add a remote autotuner. This way you only need one vertical wire. Play with the hats though - go horizontal or angle then back down - experimenting with different angles.

IF

You find (as I have) that high power remote autotuners cost $400 or so more than a SteppIR BigIR (with all the "trimmings"), then get the BigIR. I have no "pecuniary interest" in Fluid Motion - its just that after building and experimenting with wire and aluminum for many years - their products just make too much sense and also cost less than all of my other aluminum ideas (with autotuners). All wire antennas still off the most bang for the buck though . . . and you can achieve the same with wire as you can with aluminum (Moxon rectangles, spider beams, etc come to mind for gain antennas as do K8UR / K1WA arrays, etc). But I digress.

You could also take an old HF2V, move and tap the coils for say 80M, turn it into a short hatted vertical dipole and then feed the center with ladder line, going for a run away from the antenna at 90 degrees and then to your remote autotuner. Or just turn it into an inverted L so it can work on 160 - 6M - but certainly work "good enough for DX" on 80 - 10M anyway.

200 watt remote autotuners are fairly reasonably priced, so if you run 200 watts or less, these remote autotuner ideas could work. QRP-ers can have the most fun - you can get up to 6 dbi gain from many wire antenna designs for a fraction of the cost of what the QRO guys will have to use / spend. And QRP-ers get a much better rate on their return (how much it ends up costing for an all time new one as far as DX-ing is concerned).

The wire "FAN L" or FAN VERTICAL would be dirt cheap and give you a low enough take off angle to work decent DX on most bands that you tune the vertical elements for.


 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
N8QBY
Vito, it was just a matter of your presentation of the material. The rest we can do as you further explained yourself. If this means that all the readers are a lesser ham for not picking this up, well, so goes this article.
-----------------------------------------------------

Why do you think so negative? Get rid of that complex as you are as good as anyone. We are all equal.

W6TH
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W0NFU on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It never ceases to amaze me how people will act when they aren't face to face with another person. Computers have significantly reduced our ability to deal with others on a respectful manner.

I didn't understand Vito's information. However, I do think the appropriate way of stating that is to say, "Vito, I don't understand your post. Could you please explain it for me?"

Come on people - let's treat each other with respect and common decency.

73
W0NFU - Larry
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I didn't understand Vito's information. However, I do think the appropriate way of stating that is to say, "Vito, I don't understand your post. Could you please explain" it for me?""


Go purchase the ARRL Antenna Book. The informnation presented in this post is in the ARRL Antenna Book with pretty good detail on matching, antenna radiation patterns, effects of height over ground and so on.

Maybe the ARRL should start posting their periodicals as articles.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.


I didn't understand Vito's information. However, I do think the appropriate way of stating that is to say, "Vito, I don't understand your post. Could you please explain it for me?"
================================================

That was the first thing that came to my mind when I read the nasty ones. Their point was to degrade me and my post.

W6TH
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

Go purchase the ARRL Antenna Book. The informnation presented in this post is in the ARRL Antenna Book with pretty good detail on matching, antenna radiation patterns, effects of height over ground and so on.
--------------------------------------------------

Not true as the arrl information is not considering a multitude of different impedance matching.

This post was to indicate should one have 3 or more different impedances with 3 or more different wavelengths and how to perform the impedance match to please all 3 or more antennas using just one feed line.
Another explanation pleases me as well as that is why I am here to post a post.

You need a Elmer, well that is me.

W6TH
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

KY6R gave indication as to the vertical fan setup. This has been worked for many years and can have several antennas all impedance matched for a single coax line. You may have to prune the lengths of the verticals as being in close proximity to one another, but that is the fun to keep you hands and mind co-ordinated.

.:Have to qrt for the day as going to the twin mountains in NH and take pictures on my digital camera and put the computer to work printing them out:.

Photography and ham radio go hand in hand.

So all have a nice day and keep matching those aerials.

W6TH
.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

Oh. before I leave, just one more comment.

W9PMZ Carl, you posted and no mention of the challenge of the impedances, did you back out?.... Wink. ...

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by ZAXXON2000 on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for posting Vito. I get slammed too. I like the post for what it really does. It makes me think about antenna construction and how to make it better. I am not a pro and appreciate your thought provoking ideas.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8VUL on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hey John, Arn't you a little harsh in your comments? I hope I don't run across you on the airwaves. I don't think I could stand the abuse in real time. I don't know if you know it but there are many postings here from people who use English as a second language. Their form might not be to your liking also. Now back to the subject of antennas. How about you posting an article on wire antenna's, feed systems and pro's and con's of the different types of matching systems?
Looking forward to a well written, well thought out, and educational article..
Have fun and enjoy de N8VUL
Chill out..........
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito, I can't imagine you as an elmer. You might have a LITTLE knowledge but you have to get over yourself first. Your arms aren't quite long enough to pat yourself on the back. You are the one with the complex, as you get defensive if someone questions anything about your posting. Get over yourself as the info in your articles are nothing that cannot be found in text reading. Got to go, as there are other "informational" posts to read. Good luck with your ego, it needs work. :o)
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I believe this post is over and above your ham radio knowledge John. Sorry John, just checked your call and you are a tech, so you don't qualify to the understanding of this post."

"You need a Elmer, well that is me. "

Vito,

You are probably well meaning and wanting to help. And you undoubtly have a wealth of knowlege and experience. But you know-it-all, self righteous and condescinding attitude gets in the way. Instead of being an elmer by helping when a question arises, you demand attention by saying, "You need a Elmer, well that is me. "

You also said (quote 1),

"will put three antennas of three different frequencies and all you have to do is to calculate the impedance matching for each. I will them find a feed system that will satisfy your equation. "

Then you said (quote 2),

"W9PMZ Carl, you posted and no mention of the challenge of the impedances, did you back out?.... Wink. ... "

Well, if you read your challange in quote 1, I'm waiting for you to give me three different frequencies. But again, your self righteous and condescending personality come through in quote 2.


 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by GRETA on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hey here is a flash for you.

today its light

tonight it should be dark.

That should make for interesting views posted here.


Really what I think Vio is saying is

that some hams who have gotten their extras license were complaining about buying a antenna at the ham store. Putting it up. Then finding out it couldn't make contacts. so they took it down. Rolled it up. And took it back to the store saying it didn't work and wanted their money back, claiming it was a defective product. (sic)

Then to top it all off they wrote the ARRL and bad mouthed them for suggesting it in there handbook.

Ya just can't make anyone happy these days.

I worked in a TV repair shop when I was young. A CB'er came in with a box. In it it had a item that was labeled CB Linear amplifier. He had the sales recept with him so that he could prove he bought it.

He also complained about it not working right and wanted to know how much to fix it.

I told him that CB amps were illegal but, that made no matter to him.

I opened it up and found that what was inside was quite comical but justified for the fact that some of these guys wanted to have that big signal. Sure enough I found the problem. The input was wired only to a NE light so that when they talked the light on the panel would flicker. problem was it didn't go to the antenna connector at the back. So I put a piece of coax from the light to the Antenna connection. The weight of the amp was attrubited to a bag of Sand mounted inside. The power plug and switch turned on a common 100 watt light bulb and heater fan inside the box.

The guy came back the next day to pick up his $350 amp. I said I couldn't charge him for the work because it was illegal for me to do it as a ham. With a smile on my face I gave him back his box and quietly suggested he not brag about using this linear. He took it home.

Next day he came back and said he wanted to pay me for fixing it again. he thought it now worked great and that all hams were electronic genuses.

Guess who became a ham years later once they got rid of the code and lowered the requirements for tech knowledge? Go figure. Maybe that is why Vio had to write the article and we all hear the phrase today on the ham bands. Ten-four good buddy.
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K3MOV on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Gentlemen please, it's time to let this one die. Please, back to hamming. Tnx es 73.
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K1CJS on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito, your article here is simple enough to understand, IF one has the knowledge to understand it. It seems that most of the negative comments are from those that don't know the meaning or purpose of the length measurements that you've listed.

Nice chart--and handy too, if printed out. Its just that there won't be too many that know how to do that, either!! ;-)

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K1CJS on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Greta, I'll just guess you're a former CBer that got 'stepped on' and your attitude toward them thar "good ol' boys" is the result of that.

Just what have you got against CBers? You write a decent reply then spoil it in the last lines. You still don't get it, do you?
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N5UV on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"N8QBY
Vito, it was just a matter of your presentation of the material. The rest we can do as you further explained yourself. If this means that all the readers are a lesser ham for not picking this up, well, so goes this article.
-----------------------------------------------------

Why do you think so negative? Get rid of that complex as you are as good as anyone. We are all equal.

W6TH"

....well, that's not entirely true Vito, you burned KG6WLV, claiming this topic was above his head...so clearly in your mind, we are all not equal..."you need an elmer, well that's me"...no tnx., I'll just do the antenna research myself, I can do without the 'tude...



 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC8VWM on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"A CB'er came in with a box. In it it had a item that was labeled CB Linear amplifier."

"He also complained about it not working right and wanted to know how much to fix it."

I told him that CB amps were illegal but, that made no matter to him.


"I said I couldn't charge him for the work because it was illegal for me to do it as a ham."


--------

So let me get your logic straight...

You fixed up a guys illegal CB radio linear amplifier and yet you blame everything wrong with ham radio today on dumbed down licensing requirements?

Hmmm... Perhaps you should be questioning your own illegal activities as the main example of today's problems at hand.

...Is that a big 10-4?

As a licensed ham yourself, you seem to have done a disservice to yourself and other hams by fixing that illegal CB amplifier for Bubba.

What..? Would you prefer if I somehow expressed my gratitude for your concern about today's licensing requirements that allow certain "undesirables" in?

Sounds to me like a few "undesireables" have already made it into the ranks long before any license changes occurred if you should happen to ask me.

Tsk.. Tsk...
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by A9KW on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito
You are just trying to help,By sharing what you know with others.
Some understand, Some don't
I would not let this discourage you.
Ham radio is a great hobby
TOM
N9ZV
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KE7AKS on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have a degree! it is in MARKETING...
How do you like me so far?
I did build better antennas while I was still a TECH CLASS, than I have since being upgraded to GENERAL CLASS. I really fail to see what proper grammar, spelling, and REPORT WRITING has to do with lengths for antenna resonance. It seems HAMS like to read articles while wearing a TUXEDO, with their ENGINEERS CAP on, then try to impress some newbee TECH CLASS person with how INTELIGENT they are, rather that what might work for an antenna. I say to KC5TTL go study highschool grammar books and to hams look at antenna plans that have been proven to work. There seems to be a real abundance of plans to build a tried and true antenna, that will actually work.
Thanks to Vito for trying to help with what length of an antenna might work.

Other than that one might say " MOM, HE HIT ME BACK FIRST"
Sounds mostly CHILDISH to me.
Harv KE7AKS (not expired)
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
C'mon, read the post. The "CB Amplifier" was a box with a neon light in it and a bag of sand for weight.

He didn't fix an amplifier, he made something that the guy thought was an amplifier work. For all we know, it kept the guy from buying a real CB amplifier.

Maybe the CBer who had the "broken amp" wanted to use it to talk to his brother 180 miles away and he'd already built a bigger antenna and wanted better signals.

Maybe, instead, he just wanted to stomp all over other people to show the magnitude of his manhood.

In the first case, you should tell him what's going on. In the second, you should just "fix" it and let him go on in moronic bliss. Legality and morality aren't the same thing, though surely no ham should fix actual CB amps.

It's funny for CBer two to get what's coming to him.

It's not funny to say that all CBers are stupid or all Techs or stupid or all Extras licensed since 1986 are stupid.

I bet I could find any number of people who are radio hobbyists who would sing the praises of a box marked "amplifier" that had a slick meter on the front that bounced when you talked and nothing else.

Are they stupid? Maybe. Maybe they're just not educated and got ripped of by some slick dude selling something (hey, like me! LOOK OVER HERE! I WILL SELL YOU SOME FREE INFORMATION!)

Maybe they just don't know better and because of the enormous dynamic range over which radio systems operate and the subjectivity of signal reports, they just feel like they have a stronger signal. Sometimes believing you can get through a pileup can get you through the pileup.

Maybe they're assholes and then when they get taken advantage of by other assholes, we think it's funny because they're getting what they deserve.

Anecdotes don't tell you much about the general situation of a large group of people. For every stupid CBer story, I can find a hero CBer story.

For every hero ham story I can find a jerk on 75m.

And in this particular thread, an article that had no information aside from a table of numbers of lengths of wire has both confused the hell out of people and been seen as a thought provoking exercise.

I personally think ham radio is in a fine state when viewed from the bands.

The internet gives a permanence to hothead statements that make it much more volatile than if some altercation happens on the air, and so it doesn't get a very substantial prefactor in my weighted average of the health of ham radio.

However, W6TH, you have lent evidence on this thread and also KG6WLV's press release article thread that you are a bitter lid. You also wrote a bad article.

73,
Dan
N3OX
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KE7AKS:

1. Ham radio operators are supposed to be engineers. Not by trade, but by choice and because they like antennas, electronics, radio propagation, etc. It's a technical hobby, and that's fun.

2. Clarity in language and presentation of technical material helps people understand that material. Period. Proper spelling and grammar help, but more important is clear explanation of what is being said. If you view that as report writing in a tuxedo with your engineer's cap on, then you are imagining ... some very strangely dressed folks.

3. All antennas work. Why? Because it seems that the criterion for a working antenna is that one can talk to people with it. See the above comment on the dynamic range of signals discernable in a modern reciever. You can still make contacts if you drop 30dB on both TX and RX in your coax. That does not make your antenna system a good one. It makes it a slightly less than worthless one. All of Vito's "antenna designs" will work because any piece of wire you put up and feed in any method that doesn't actually cause your transciever to go up in smoke will "work" as per the current definition of such.

Many of Vito's "designs" will be nearly 100% efficient and have gain over a coax fed dipole if you put the right feedline and matching network in the right place.

Many of Vito's "designs" will make for very awful antenna and have significant loss with respect to a dipole if you get feedline and matching details wrong.

So how is a table of lengths sufficient information for designing an antenna system? Think about it.

Dan
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
And as I feel a bit cautious about spelling mistakes, I forgot an "s" on the end of "antennas".
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K8MHZ on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito's response to a nice article on promoting ham radio:

"A Recipe for Publicity.

Hear Ye, hear ye Amateur radio has been dumbed down the requirement to become a ham operator. Five wpm and some with no code to boot.

That worked going from 75,000 to 680,000 hams overnight.

Now that is publicity."

----------------

You reap what you sow, OM.

Respect is earned, not given.

Mark K8MHZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.


Hey fellows, jealousy will get you nowhere.

You can't take noting a better man than yourselves.

N3ox, Dan, were you the one person that got a degree from the University of Maryland at College Park, for Ballroom Dancing or was it the degree of Tap Dancing? I forget which. I remember your name as at that time I was living on the campus.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Nah, it was ballet. I like wearing a tutu.

-Dan
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

W9PMZ Carl

The impedance test is off. I don't associate with trash.

I am fussy with whom I break bread with.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W6TH on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.

N3OX
Nah, it was ballet. I like wearing a tutu.

-Dan
----------------------------------------

Good as you should give up what you do for a living as you and your tutu will bring you more wealth.

.:
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well, I'm going back to lurking in the forums and actually answering questions. I'm also going to consider the ballet career, but I think I've got some other irons in the fire what with the physics research and all.

If you've got anything more to say to me, Vito, we can make a sked. I prefer 30 meter CW.

I have one condition, though. You select a random ham, you can pick him or her via suitability of callsign, religious affiliation or lack thereof, whatever suits your taste.

Give them this article and instruct them to construct an antenna for you to use for our QSO, and request that they not use any additional information they may have at their disposal.

I'm sure I'll hear you. I have a good setup here.

CW always seems so civil anyway.

73,
Dan
N3OX

N3UMH until 2006
Extra class since 1999
Proud Tech in 1995
Loved electronics since I knew they existed.

73 OM, QRU
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K1OU on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Man, I thought my hassle with W9WHE was brutal!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"W9PMZ Carl

The impedance test is off. I don't associate with trash.

I am fussy with whom I break bread with."

You just don't get it do you? Again your self righteous and condescidning attitude surfaces.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8NSN on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I am probably wasting my time by placing a reply to this post but, what the heck... Might as well. Certainly, I am by far not a know it all. I have learned one thing, if anything at all, after 20 plus years of intense study of antenna research both on a professional and amateur level. That 1 thing is this; On HF bands there is not any one antenna that will perform the same in any 2 locations. There are too many variables. The main variables are of course antenna height and soil conductivity. This being said, with a multi-band single antenna the results found to be best with my experiences have been parallel feeders. Say you can only put up one antenna for 80 through 10 meters... yes an 80 meter dipole fed with 450 ohm ladder line will work on all bands including the w.a.r.c. bands WITH THE PROPER TYPE OF TUNER ! ! ! Forget about using a 4:1 balun and 50 ohm coax to terminate into your typical L differential or T match tuner or your rig with an auto tuner. The 4:1 balun, though it will work (somewhat), still has a far from correct ratio on certain segments and bands. This leads to core saturation, harmonic noise or what some call splatter and far from ideally EFFICIENT SIGNAL RADIATION ! The only 2 types of Antenna Tuners I would even consider using with parallel feed lines is 1) a link coupled tuner or 2) a balanced L network. Now the balanced L network does require a 1:1 balun on the INPUT side of the tuner but you can also use a coaxial choke instead of a ferrite core balun.
I completely admire what Vito has made a very good point to do here, which I adore... To stirr up some thought. Way to go OM ! ! ! There are far too many appliance operators on the air these days.
LOOK OUT PALSTAR... AND GET SOME BETTER MANUFACTURING PRACTICES MFJ... THERE'S A NEW ATU COMPANY COMING TO TOWN IN A FEW YEARS ;)

73 & Thank You Vito
jim kc8byf Dayton, Ohio
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8NSN on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
OH YEA, TTL... GET A RENEWAL OR ELSE JUST GO PLAY ON YAHOO MESSENGER OR SOMTHING AND LEAVE THE RADIO STUFF TO THE HOLDERS OF THE TICKETS AAAH HI HI HI HI HI!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W4GT on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The important thing to remember is that KC5TTL needs to renew his license, since it expired on 04/04/06. The antenna article? Take it or leave it, or write one of your own.
Gary
W4GT
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W4VR on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""by W6TH on June 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing
by WB4ENI
>>He must think most hams are dummies<<

A well-founded belief, judging by the response elicited.
------------------------------------------------------ There are no dummies, it is just that many have a lack of knowledge regarding many subjects. Hams today do not have the logic or the creativity as hams of years gone by.---This doesn't mean they are dummies as you put it, but just lack of certain knowledge which they care less about having.--- ""

W6TH: you are absolutely correct. I've been around the hobby for over 45 years and have been designing my own antennas for as long. When I see article as basic as yours and the comments that ensue indicate a gross lack of understanding of the basic principles of antennas, it's obvious there are many folks out there that passed the ham radio exam by memorizing the answers, or simply don't have any technical aptitude. It may not be a bad idea for you to title your articles more appropriately; for example, how about "Multi-Antenna Fun Thing for Dummies"...this would greatly reduce the number of bashing comments.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W4VR: I think you're missing the point of the negative comments, and I'm not sure how you're managing to do that.

The purpose of an article on a site such as this is to transmit information that was previously unknown to the reader.

Some hams who know enough about antennas to "understand" this article; that is, to realize that you can take these lengths of wire and feed them in the center using ladderline or an appropriate matching network, and that doing so will give you a good efficient radiator. Those hams can also calculate the length in feet of a five-eighths wavelength wire, and therefore, this article transmits no information previously unknown to them.

Some hams do not know enough about antennas to realize that you can take these lengths and feed them with ladder line or a tuner right at the feedpoint. It's not stated in the "article". It does not transmit information to them, either, because it doesn't say any of that.

Many of these latter hams can ALSO calculate the length in feet of 5/8ths wavelength worth of wire. That doesn't mean they know what to do with it.

So, who is this article for? Maybe for people without calculators. But it's on the internet, and google makes a fiiiine calculator. It even knows the speed of light!

Try this search string:

0.625*c/14MHz in feet

What do you get?

(0.625 * c) / (14 MHz) = 43.9094222 feet

You say that the negative criticism was coming from hams who are too stupid to know that Vito was posting various fractions of a wavelength in feet. You are not the only one who has commented this way.

I say that Vito posted a table of numbers with no explanation of the point of said exercise, and some people called him on it, with various levels of tact.

I do believe that most posters with negative criticism can and always could generate this table on their own, and that's why they were upset that it was on the front page of one of the biggest ham radio sites on the internet.

This article transmits no information. Those who "get it" by your definition and Vito's don't need to know this. Those who "don't get it" aren't going to get anything out of it. Nothing. At all.

So what is it for?

73,
Dan
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well said, Dan, and I agree with most of what you said. However, I think what set some of us off is that the article lacked any coherence and...well...comprehensible English.

As an analogy, let's say I put a couple of eggs, a cup of sugar, cocoa powder, and some shortening on a table in front of you and say, "Okay, Dan, make some brownies." Unless you've had training as a baker, you'd probably give me a deer-in-the-headlights kind of look. You have the raw ingredients, but you don't have any instructions as to what to do with them.

Back to Vito's article: yup, the raw ingredients (i.e., the numbers) were there, but there wasn't any kind of instructions or background information to make easy sense of them...unless you're very well-versed in antenna theory, then you'd recognize the numbers for what they are and know how to put the bits of information to work. Most hams here know how to crank numbers, but the article's insufficient information kept some of us from making the mental jump from raw numbers to application.

As you inferred, eHam is really an educational site: we're here to learn and share what we know with others. However, if a writer doesn't provide enough or correct information, we feel frustrated, insulted, or are left completely baffled as to what was said. What really set things off was that Vito didn't take well-intentioned criticisms very well, nor did he ask for help. A simple, "I'm sorry I wasn't very clear here--could one of you guys/gals reiterate what I said so it makes better sense?" (Hats off to Chris for figuring it out and uploading his interpretations.) I think a little humility would've gone a loooooooong way to avoiding the cannon fire shot across everybody's bows. That, and a little more civility from readers as well.

Somebody back in the fray suggested that there should be a peer review of articles before they're posted here. I think that would be an excellent idea.

Your thoughts?
Rich
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KE7AKS on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well the assumption i guess is that folks that want to know what Vito was talking about would study L-arge A-perature M-ulti band D-eployable Antennas...
"LAMDA" seems to be more mysterious than Fun Things.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KE7AKS on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Duh! w e l l Maybe you should just make a LAMDA antenna, cut it to the lengths Vito mentioned and see if it works.. Hams experiment!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KE7AKS on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
LAMDA antennas were invented a long time ago, they WORK... You might try one and find out that they can work very well...
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KE7AKS on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Too much babble about WRITING, and EXPLANATIONS...
Just go BUILD a L.A.M.D.A., antenna and see if Vito's NUMBERS are significant....the proof is in the BIULDING, TESTING, and USING, not in the EXPLAINING.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well, Harvey, here's where an explanation would've helped:

Lambda (with a "b" as Vito had typed) is the Greek alphabet symbol used to denote wavelength. (That's how I interpreted it.)

LAMDA, as you say, is an antenna system. I never would've guessed it...or for our British friends, it's the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Arts. :D

Experimenting with antennas is great fun. (Heavens know I've caused local geomagnetic disturbances with the ones I've put up.) But, if you have the right info in hand that takes out most of the guesswork, it sure saves a lot of time and expense.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KE7AKS on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Actually The greek letter LAMBDA looks kinda like an "h" but most folks just figure 1 lambda = 1 wave length.... no need to mystify or confuse with the Harris Reflector...
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N3OX on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Rich,

I'd certainly support a peer-review. I don't know if it's appropriate for eHam or not, as, despite how things may have appeared to go here, I do not want to discourage people from submitting articles, and some
people may see it as more restrictive.

It certainly works for scientific and other works, and I'd be a glad participant in such a site. I think for a community of people sharing hints and ideas and experience they've picked up along the way, peer review could greatly enhance the signal to noise ratio. There would be little duplication of articles, there would be few if any purely inflammatory posts, and the really useful stuff would get top billing.

Things like this post wouldn't get lost :

http://www.eham.net/articles/9727

while those of limited utility wouldn't get published in the first place. Additionally, everyone involved in the writing and editing of each article is going to learn something.

As I said, I don't know if this is the place for it. It would be up to the user base as a whole and the current staff to institute major editorial change.

On the other hand, eHam has such a vast readership that it would really be able to get a lot of participants interested quickly. Maybe it could start as an add-on to eHam.

An online amateur radio journal publication with anonymous peer review would certainly remove the possibility of personal attack and the final publication would be fantastic.

Dan






 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KE7AKS on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry Vito I just got carried away with stupid explanations, and threw in some Red Herrings for laughs.. I really do use a BEVERAGE antenna and some multiband, multi element, single feed antennas myself. the 20M antenna 1/2 wavelength seems to work as a 1 LAMBDA 10M close enough to tune. Harv
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N8QBY on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well, it is still clear that Vito has to much of an ego to admit that he lacked something in his intent of his article. Presentation, or a good introduction can go a long way. Most any reader on E-ham could have come up with that same table of figures. We are not mind readers as to someone else's intent. And just because most didn't "get" his meaning, doesn't mean we know any less about antenna theory. On the contrary, most just don't feel the need to inflate ones own ego. All the negatives and positives about this article have been hashed out enough. On to bigger and better antennas. :o)
 
Multi-Antenna Funky Thing  
by TG9AKH on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The other day I was analysing several financial time series. At the daily frequency, sight deposits seemed to exhibit a peak when looking at the 30-day differenced series, i.e., somehow maximum variation is attained when looking at fluctuation in sight deposits over a 30 day period. This also means that the volatile component of sight deposits peaks at the 30-day interval.

The problem with selecting the 30-day differenced series is that we cannot subsequently apply the law of the square root of time, so there is no way to easily extrapolate any results over a longer time horizon. This happens because the elements in a 30-day differenced series are not independent of each other, by construction.

A better solution is to transform standard 1-day fluctuatons into the frequency domain and pick only the range of frequencies where variance peaks, and then transform the series back to the time domain. In this case, it would be possible to use the square root of time to extrapolate into any desired horizon.

This is all very interesting and I encourage everybody to try it at home, at least once, so that you get a good grasp of this subject matter.

Thanks for reading as far as this.

Cheers,


Mario TG9AKH


N.B.: My comment fails the relevance test at any degree of confidence. If you failed to understand its contents, it could be that I did not provide enough information for anybody not previously acquainted with the subect, ...however smart. No sense of guilt on my part, sorry, as Im an expert not a saint.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Funky Thing  
by K8MHZ on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Mario!

Wow, you sound just like Vito. You should be rich soon. (Small r)

Are you still in GC? Maybe we can work 20 or 17?

Drop me an e-mail OM, maybe we will catch you on FD!

Gotta admit, that was funny!

73 de K8MHZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Funky Thing  
by N6AJR on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
fan dipole

high

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Funky Thing  
by N6AJR on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
a fan dipole made for several frequencies and mounted at a decent height are a low cost alternative to expensive store bought antennas, and can be made by almost anyone.

here are some examples

http://www.ku4ay.net/dipole.html
http://www.qsl.net/kd7rem/antdipole.htm
http://www.hamuniverse.com/multidipole.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/ni4l/ni4ldipole.html
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/9611073.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/n2uhc/2banddipole.html
http://www.qsl.net/na4it/fandipole.html


 
RE: Multi-Antenna Funky Thing  
by N6AJR on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
first post, essence of my idea, second post , what I was saying in the first post.

this post, so you can figure out why I posted 3 times.

Vito, I use those numbers in my multiband, single feed point antennas also, but I don't know exactly what you meant with your post.

not being mean , just confused.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Funky Thing  
by AB9LZ on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"The other day I was analysing several financial time series. At the daily frequency, sight deposits seemed to exhibit a peak when looking at the 30-day differenced series, i.e., somehow maximum variation is attained when looking at fluctuation in sight deposits over a 30 day period. This also means that the volatile component of sight deposits peaks at the 30-day interval."

huh, unless you are looking at an MBS pool, or a basket, this makes no sense. Are you trying to derive a new forward curve? what is the convexity?

oh wait... this is an antenna discussion, nevermind.

73 Mark.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Funky Thing  
by KG5JJ on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Was there an ig-pay atin-lay ost-pay earlier-way?

Could have sworn there was something about ig-pay atin-lay.

Naaah....must have been dreaming.

73 KG5JJ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC5CQD on June 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
***The important thing to remember is that KC5TTL needs to renew his license, since it expired on 04/04/06. The antenna article? Take it or leave it, or write one of your own.
Gary
W4GT
***********************************************



Well "TTL" is doing exactly what he(she?) always does. Jumps in, stirs it up and then bails. Especially after the mention of the expired license.

This guy is doing nothing more than borrowing a callsign and agitating the hell out of everyone. I'm sure he's getting a major chuckle out of all of the attention.

Maybe the next time he borrows a callsign he should at least check the expiration dates. That way he can agitate with at least the illusion of having a leg to stand on.

His current dilemma is like he stole a car with expired tags. hihi!
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by VK7YZ on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC5TTL-SK
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W9PMZ on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with the concept of peer review. With peer review the article could have been posted in an "expert" forum; or with peer review, peers could have suggested improvements to the submission.

On the subject of this submission, anyone with a calculator can come up with the lengths for wire antennas cut for the CW portions of the calculated bands.

Where I think that this article could have been improved upon is to calculate the lengths, low portion of the band to the high portion of the bands and how you can choose lengths that represent overlapping resonances. Such as the classic novice combination; a 1/2 wave dipole on 40M that works as a 3/2 wave dipole on 15M.

Where this article falls short is it fails to mention that when the antenna is an integer multiple of a full wave antenna the input impedance is well over several thousand ohms and requires additional attention to the feed of this antenna.

In the case of integer multiples of 1/2 wave antennas the input impedance is low and can be easily matched to common coax. Years ago, before low impedance coax became the transmission line of choice; the transmission line of choice was open wire lines. This coupled with the fact that tubes and their high impedance output, several thousand ohms, were easy to match to full wave antennas and their high impedance input. This is not the case with modern day 50 ohm transceivers.

This issue causes so much anguish to antenna tuner manufacturers. You get an amateur who doesn't fully understand these issues, so they try to feed a 40M dipole on 20M and the antenna tuner arcs like crazy. The tuner arcs because the tuner wasn't designed to handle this particular mismatch. So this amateur incorrectly names the tuner "old sparky" and trashes it in a review. (That was me too many years ago, trying to get on 80M with a 40M dipole)

There are other methods to match high impedance antennas to a 50 ohm transceiver without using an antenna tuner through the use of open wire transmission line. These methods essentially used the concept Zo = sqrt ( Z1 * Z2 ). So the game becomes adjusting the transmission line so its length becomes an impedance then when coupled to the antenna the system yields low impedance to the antenna tuner. There are excellent web pages that are linked in the Resources area of this web page.

Another area that this article fails to mention is the radiation patterns of long antennas. Such as a "full size" G5RV operated on 10M. The radiation pattern tend to be very sharp and in the direction of the antenna; not perpendicular as many are accustomed to.

In regard to using the material submitted for consideration, all one needs to peruse eBay and see how many sellers there are of 260ft, 130ft, 60ft and 32ft "G5RV" antennas. These products are precisely what Vito is talking about.

But in the final analysis Mr. Fan, N6AJR, advocates the amateurs easiest do-it-yourself solution; the fan dipole. The fan dipole is a great solution, since it presents low impedance that is easily matched by an antenna tuner to a 50 ohm transceiver.

Vito has in his article provided interesting facts but fails to provide the operating instructions. He sets them up for failure so he can come to their rescue and this is evident in his comment, "you need an elmer and that's me".

This is why we need peer review in project articles. So that there is enough detail so that the amateur taking this initiative has enough detail so he can fully understand what he is undertaking in his project.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K8MHZ on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It looks to me that Vito likes to play with his computer program and generate numbers.

The readers are expected to act as the article was Epiphany lest they be accused of not having enough intelligence to understand it.

What I understand is that taking antenna calculations to the hundredth of a foot is a silly waste of time.

A better article would be taking the calcs and actually building an antenna. Then show us how far off the calcs were and then offer an explanation as to why they were off....and they will be off. More often they will be short.

That's it in a nutshell.

73,

Mark K8MHZ
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
:D I'd actually like to see someone try to prune an 80M antenna down to the hundredth of an inch. "Damn! I cut it short by a .015". Rich, pass me the soldering iron."

Actually, Mark, you just planted a seed for an article I think I'll write (not another Dead Electrical Dudes one, though--I was threatened with legal action when I posted the last one). When I wrote earlier in the thread that there wasn't going to be much of an operational difference between using a ladder line-fed dipole cut for 102 ft. vs. 132 ft., another ham wrote me and asked a very good question: what _would_ be the difference? So, an article on the theoretical and "real world" differences of both operating at reduced power and/or using a shortened antenna might be worthwhile. However, I don't have EZNEC or any other antenna modeling program, so if anybody would like to volunteer their help in this regard--as well as peer review the article before I upload it--I'd sure appreciate it.

Ciao,
Rich
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Oh, and of course those who would helped will be given credit in the article's header.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N5UV on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Wouldn't it be an ironic twist if W6TH and KC5TTL happened to be the same person?

 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by M0AFJ on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well Rich, I have extended the 450 Ohm line into the shack so in effect I have a 102' Doublet, first thing I noticed was the lack of RF in the shack and the antenna appears to tune correctly, anyway the next few nights I'll see how it works..., exit the G5RV!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WF7A on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Very cool, Tim--please let us know! If you like, I'll include your results in my article.

As an gentle reminder to all about putting up a "balanced" dipole antenna fed with ladder line, remember to route/mount the line away from metal objects (gutters, sash weights in windows, in-wall conduit or Romex, etc.) else it'll "unbalance" the antenna. That, and heavy rain will affect the feeder's balance as well.

Hey, that raises a question: a ham once told me that he waxed the entire feeder using car wax to help prevent rain from affecting it and claimed it worked. Has anybody else tried that with similar results, or is it a waste of perfectly good car wax?
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K8MHZ on June 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have heard the wax thing before. Don't know if it works or not. When I hear the old timers talk about it I just think they are....waxing nostalgic. :)

Also, we need to be aware of the NEC requirements for bringing non-shielded ungrounded feedline into a house. There are some safety issues that I see most hams tend to either not be aware of or simply choose to ignore.

Play safe and 73,

Mark K8MHZ
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by TG9AKH on June 23, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mark AB9LZ wrote:

"huh, unless you are looking at an MBS pool, or a basket, this makes no sense. Are you trying to derive a new forward curve? what is the convexity?

oh wait... this is an antenna discussion, nevermind."

$17 $22,854 $345 $34 $56,794.19 $123.9856 001010010101101
100110101100110234 "MBS pool" "1 basket of apples + 2 baskets of oranges = convex butterfly" implies "Me like Yagi-Uda antenna"

Hope it's clear now...


Mario ;-)
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KA5N on June 23, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Those who are confused by Vito's latest offering should consult "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathan Swift. You will find the chapters on "Struldbruggs" and the "land of the projectors" particularly revelent.
Allen
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KC8VWM on June 23, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Ahhhh... so your are diverting this entire thread to the idea of reading a book called Gulliver's Travels instead huh?
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by N4FOZ on June 24, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
First of all, thank you for submitting an article to eHam.

Secondly, I find it sad that this forum is used for the bashing of anyone who tries to participate by submitting an article, and the Moderator just does not realize that the number of good articles have been decreasing because there is no "Moderation" of the bashing.

In any event, your efforts are appreciated by at least one ham.

73,
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by VK7YZ on June 27, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KC5TTL is a bootlegger. Took a silent key license.
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WA2JJH on July 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
VITO--YOUR THE GREATEST!

1)You write many tech. articals with an interesting flair!

2)Your right on the money with the tech.

3)Morons causticly lambast you for your efforts!

4)You have the MOXIE to write even more!

KEEP ON TRUCKIN---DE MIKE EX-WA2JJH
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WA2JJH on July 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
VITO--YOUR THE GREATEST!

1)You write many tech. articals with an interesting flair!

2)Your right on the money with the tech.

3)Morons causticly lambast you for your efforts!

4)You have the MOXIE to write even more!

KEEP ON TRUCKIN---DE MIKE EX-WA2JJH
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K8MHZ on July 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe Vito can tell you how to build a 532Nm repeater.

I'll bet when you are done it will still look like a mirror ;)

 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by W4FDA on July 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I'm 84 years old and have been a ham since 1937 and know a little about antennas. I have no idea what he is talking about. But then, I don't have to read it, do I?
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by WA2JJH on July 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Not right. A mirror would be a passive. MY DESIGN IS NOT!!!
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by KA2FIR on July 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Internet Troll
 
RE: Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by M0JHA on July 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
shut up you girls
 
Multi-Antenna Fun Thing  
by K6CA on July 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Last week, somewhere, I thought it was here, I saw an article about a 135ft ? long wire. Pros and cons and thoughts about an end fed long wire. Did anyone see it or know where the article is?
Tnx,
Tim
 
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