EMCOMM Training Options
James "Scott" Duckworth (NA4IT)
on
July 24, 2006
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EMCOMM training has seemed to become the norm since 9-11 and even more so since Katrina. Who knows if it started as a fad, or a requirement, or as a "gotta keep up with the Jones" thing, but it looks like it is here to stay.
There is nothing wrong with training. Knowledge is always good. But, as would have it, some folks refuse to take training. Some reasons are:
(1) I've been around for 100 years doing the same thing you are, and you want me to take training...haberdash!
(2) Well, I got into it for a hobby, I'll never be involved in EMCOMM (listen for them the next time a tornado hits...)
(3) I don't have time for this &*^$#.
Some folks have jumped gung-ho and taken every FEMA course they can find, and some have paid a fairly high price to take ARRL EMCOMM courses.
But some groups have laid out training plans that are "my way or the highway" and they are in fact loosing volunteers because of requirements and attitudes on both sides of the table.
FEMA has pretty much done it right. It is a requirement of government entities to have so many of their folks take FEMA training to varying degrees. And sometimes, amateur radio operators are included as the ones who are required to take the training. With FEMA, they have the option of taking training fully online, by paper study materials and tests, by classroom setting, or a hybrid of any of these methods. They strive to leave no one out, but achieve the goal of having trained volunteers.
When it comes to EMCOMM (the amateur radio version(s)), some groups say it's ARRL or nothing, and some groups use the online methods such as Kentucky or Colorado ARES offers.
If a group decides to go the ARRL way, it will cost someone to do it, that someone usually being the volunteer. It could be $10 for a test fee only, or it could be more, a lot more. The main reason I am hearing is that some groups require the ARRL EMCOMM as it affords national credentials.
Let's look at something here...let's be very reasonable. If a fire department in one city requests help from another city, they don't ask if the other department if they have had the same exact training they have had.
If a commercial truck driver drives into a state other than his home state, is he required to have a national license? Any violations on his license do show up in a national database, but his home state issued his license.
If an amateur operator offers assistance to a state that has required ARRL EMCOMM, and he has some other type of EMCOMM, such as the online Kentucky or Colorado training, is some one going to say "I'm sorry, we can't let you , you don't have the national credentials afforded by ARRL EMCOMM"?
The online methods such as the Kentucky or Colorado groups use cost little if none. In fact, in carefully looking at both websites, I could not find any mention of cost to the volunteer. In fact, some of the government agencies look at these types of training as continuing education credits for their employees. Now that is cool!
Which is the better way? FEMA seems to have it right. Maybe amateur radio needs to take lessons as to how to do it from them.
In my opinion, training can be required, but must be flexible, and free of charge. How?
(1) If it is a class type training, offer multiple classes at different times, day & night.
(2) Offer online alternatives.
(3) Offer hard copy materials.
(4) Whoever is requiring the training needs to absorb ALL cost.
FEMA pretty much does all of the above. Kentucky and Colorado do the online training.
Get a plan that works for everyone. Volunteers are resources, the more that leave the ranks, the more resources you loose, the harder response becomes on all.
The question is this, are those in charge willing to make their training flexible and free, or are they willing to loose good volunteers because of bull headedness, of either side?
Scott NA4IT
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by KG4RUL on July 24, 2006
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Is it more 'bull headed' to require training or to rail against training? Perhaps if an organization that one wishes to be associated with requires training and, one does not wish to comply, it may be better if they "loose" that person.
Face it, whether you are dealing with a volunteer group, or are a part of a paid group, you have to follow home court rules.
Dennis KG4RUL
Berkeley County South Carolina ARES
MARS NNN0FAE
ARECC Level 1
IS-100
IS-230
IS-235
IS-700
In-Process: IS-800 & IS-242
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W4LGH on July 24, 2006
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Being the EX-ARES EC for my county, I just resigned last week, I understand what you are saying. The Government(s) Federal, State and Local, I feel, and this is only my opinion, are going about this the wrong way. They ALL want to put all their eggs in one basket, and want everyone to work as a group. This is a great in concept, but we all know what happens, or can happen by doing this. The county here wants to spend $15 million on new 800Mhz digital encrypted trunked radios for the entire county including all Emergency Services. So if they lose a repeater, ALL the radios in that section go down!! They won't even be able to talk car to car. This is what happened to communications in New Orleans, and it has happened in many other areas as well. Yet, our elected officials continue to go that direction.
The one thing that has made Ham Radio work over the past 100 years is that we operate individually, not as a group. We are all self-contained, most have their own backup power, backup antennas, and backup radios. We all operate as a single unit, making contact with other single units and we get the information thru. This and this alone is what makes ham radio work in emergencies. So what if we all don't have titles as ESF-2's (the govt new title for communicators) so what if we all don't know all the govts new BUZZ words, or fill out the govts papers. The REAL issue is to get help where help is needed!!
Do you care, if you're in need of help, and someone gets this help to you, as to whether they had some fancy training or titles? Not as long as they could communicate your distress info to someone who could offer help and get you out of danger.
I have known many hams who have done just that, and did it for hours on end, only because they wanted to HELP. They got NO pay, not even a pat on the back for a job well done.
Even though I am no longer "OFFICIALLY" involved with ARES, I will continue to offer my services to send information, establish communications with in a distressed area, and to try and help out anyone needing help. I have done this for years, at my own expense and time already. Hams already know how to communicate, why should additional time and expense be put on them to do something they are already volunteering to do!!
If you are in desperate need of help and someone offers this help, for FREE,are you going to stop and ask them what their certifications are, then refuse this help because they don't have the certification you are looking for? Doesn't make sence does it?
Remember, the key word is VOLUNTEER!!
I sincerely hope that ARES continues to grow, and survive, and I commend all who are part of ARES, that want to help out, but I can no longer be a part of it with all the govt rules and regs being placed in their laps, at their own expense.
Best of luck to All ARES members, and other Hams who help out in times of need!!!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
PS.. Now I am no longer an ARES EC, I can let my ARRL membership expire! Another requirement and expense that was placed on me. And the ARRL is a completely new subject, best left for another thread!
I am now just an AVERAGE "JOE HAM" who going to enjoy playing radio and helping out where I can! 73
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KG4RUL on July 24, 2006
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"PS.. Now I am no longer an ARES EC, I can let my ARRL membership expire! Another requirement and expense that was placed on me. And the ARRL is a completely new subject, best left for another thread! "
========
ARRL membership IS NOT a requirement for ARES participation!
Dennis KG4RUL
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KC0SHZ on July 24, 2006
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"PS.. Now I am no longer an ARES EC, I can let my ARRL membership expire! Another requirement and expense that was placed on me. And the ARRL is a completely new subject, best left for another thread! "
========
ARRL membership IS NOT a requirement for ARES participation!
Dennis KG4RUL
_____
But it seems to be a requirement for those who are EC's. Ours had to join when he became EC.
Training is important, volunteers do their volunteer job for free and making someone pay a significant amount of money to take your training in order to be a volunteer seems excessive. The FEMA courses are free and thus make the price right. They are becoming the required course of study and will eventually replace ARRL's courses if the ARRL continues to charge as much as they do. So we can continue to complain about the ARRL's strategy, or we can let them fail in the market place.
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by KC5TTL on July 24, 2006
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N4AIT
"The question is this, are those in charge willing to make their training flexible and free, or are they willing to loose good volunteers because of bull headedness, of either side?"
Actually the question should be -- "Are volunteers needed any longer at the Federal level?"
The answer of course is NO... FEMA, DHS, etc etc has came to the realization that depending on volunteers during critcal times (when the volunteers themselves are affected by the tradegy)is not the best plan.
Ham volunteers can be very effective at the local and regional levels -- but most don't want to help out at the Red Cross Shelter -- they all want to show up at FEMA or military or Coast Guard offices and then get upset when they are sent away.
Personally -- i think the best thing to do is put the hams that help on a salary --(yeah yeah I know about not being pid for ham radio stuff) .. that way that get reimbursed for the training and out of pocket expenditures.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W6TH on July 24, 2006
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.
All of this emergency stuff reminds me of a song called "ring around a rosie, ashes, ashes all fall down".
...Seems hams of today can't agree upon anything, too many Chiefs and no Indians.
...Time will heal all wounds.
.:
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by AI2IA on July 24, 2006
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Let me start by saying this: Scott, NA4IT, gave a sincere appraisal of the current state of this thing called Emcom as he experienced it. Experience counts. What really worked well in the past? If it worked well in the past, there is no reason why it should not work well in the future. In a nutshell here it is: Keep it simple. Get rid of all the clutter - titles, national certifications, encryption, etc. Keep government funds out of it. These breed corruption and greed. Emergency management should put the emphasis on a loose confederation rather than on a big government style regimentation for control. Ham radio gets through because of simplicity, self-reliance, independence, and let us never forget the value of ham fraternity! Brother hams working with brother hams can do things that government employees can never achieve! I say that with absolutely no criticism of government employees. Ham fraternity is a quality of amateur radio that government just can never acquire for themselves. It's the nature of the thing. If anyone reading this can improve on what I am saying, go to it. We can all benefit by the input.
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by WW5AA on July 24, 2006
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Training is usually a good thing, but when it turns something into a part of the infrastructure, the objective is lost in the bureaucracy. The resources of HAM radio are based on the autonomy of non- dependent operators and their equipment. As the director of a served agency, my decision on who helps will largely be based on how Hams that I hear operate in the every day real world. Yes, training is at times required; however there is no substitution for a good operator and equipment no matter what their training level is. I for one am not impressed with open book internet tests, what I hear from an operator on the air carries a lot more weight!
73, de Lindy
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by MY_OPINION on July 24, 2006
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Good post Scott.
Training offers opportunities to expand knowledge and skills. Certified training offers opportunities to gain a piece of paper or an entry in a database supposedly proving that one has taken the training. It is only as good as it may be recognized by parties or agencies for whom one cares to offer services. Note that I said proves "that one has taken the training" and not "proves the skills." It is up to the individual to prove the skills.
ARRL membership may not be required for participation at the lowest levels. However, it is required as one seeks to move up the field organization. Remember that ARES is a registered trademark of the ARRL.
Also, remember that ARES, despite strong efforts to have everyone believe the contrary, is not the only, nor necessarily the best, amateur radio based emergency communications organization. Just as ARRL does not count even half of the licensed US population among its members, not all amateur radio emergency communications volunteers are associated with ARES.
Not all FEMA training is available on-line. Some courses (e.g., 300) currently are not offered on-line.
My suggestion is to train, develop more skills, and become better able to serve the agencies with whom you volunteer. Have fun at it or do something else.
And that, dear friends, is
MY_OPINION
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by K8MHZ on July 24, 2006
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"Personally -- i think the best thing to do is put the hams that help on a salary"
While I do see your point, have you ever stopped to think that if there were money for salaries and equipment hams would not be needed?
More and more it sounds like we are being used rather than utilized.
Introspectively we need to question our purpose. Are we being sought after because of our skills as communicators or are we being sought after because of our willingness to work for free and provide our own radio gear?
This subject is indeed a very delicate one. It may also be the case that the truth lies somewhere in between. We really need to be careful that we place ourselves in the proper position.
To assure that we are used due to our communications skills, we need to keep them as sharp as possible. That can only be done with training and exercise.
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by WF7A on July 24, 2006
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I like Hawkeye Pierce's version of that saying, Vito: "Time wounds all 'heels'."
John, according to FCC rule 97.113, Prohibited Transmissions, (a)(2), "Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules." This begs the question: can a ham legally earn pay/salary up to the point where he or she is actually sending a message ("communications" part above), or stops when the ham is control operator, or...?
Just don't ask for a FEMA trailer for payment. ;>
Ciao,
Rich
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by N1GXC on July 24, 2006
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The 9-11 cottage industry has not yet settled into a reasonable course of government action. To put it in common terms, the Department of Homeland Security is still on a fear monger glut of spending without purpose. FEMA is riding in their wake. We are now treating natural disasters as though they were terrorist attacks on America. We spend money to create a public and media perception that the government is on top of things. Nothing useful is getting done. But, the ever complaining 'have-not's' get the press and all of the brain dead armchair, 6 o'clock news watchers feel good that we are throwing billions into a bottomless pit.
We hams are just getting caught up in the ever larger relm of government regulations that require us to meet some standard that was established by some no-nothing Washington paper a**hole who has no idea what training and skill an amateur radio operator already has. I agree that there are a few hams out there that still hold onto the REACT mentality. Just go to hamsexy.com to see what I'm talking about. After an entire career in law enforcement I could tell you horror stories about how local and state agencies still have a communications system that just suck's. Billions of dollars fed into the Motorola beast that is operated by complete idiot's in the dispatch center. Think I'm making this up? In all honesty, it's a wonder that I survived to retirement.
And you think the the local, state and federal government's give a hoot about or understands the function of ham radio? Please think again. These Bozo's are grasping at straws in the light of not knowing how to get things done.
There is no simple solution only intelligent choices. It is our duty to educate them on how amateur radio can help them fulfill a vital part of the public's need for reliable emergency communications. The better majority of us just want to help or fellow citizen's and ask nothing in return. We are ham's. It is our tradition. But please do not fall prey to the the common misconception that just because someone is spending our billions, they actually know what they are doing.
73, God bless,
Dan WZ1P
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by K1CJS on July 24, 2006
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"ARRL membership IS NOT a requirement for ARES participation!......"
But it seems to be a requirement for those who are EC's. Ours had to join when he became EC....."
I am also an 'ex' EC since last year, and I can say that if you want to be considered for even the EC (emergency coordinator) position for a city, town or an area, you have to be a paid up member of the ARRL. The reason given to me was that the ARRL hierarchy 'administer' the ARES program, so they want you to join and to keep your information to them updated.
I may add that I also am available to do what needs to be done, but 'squabbles' and 'cliques' in the local group have effectively eliminated some of the hams in my area, and I seem to be one of them.
Even though I've politely asked that I be kept up to date and informed, I have not been. Let something come up, however, and I'm the first one called to volunteer my equipment--all of it, especially cabling, both co-ax and electrical, antennas and generator--and my time.
The way things are going, the next time I'm called, I may very well tell them that I'm not available.....and neither is my equipment.
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by K1CJS on July 24, 2006
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"Ham volunteers can be very effective at the local and regional levels -- but most don't want to help out at the Red Cross Shelter -- they all want to show up at FEMA or military or Coast Guard offices and then get upset when they are sent away."
You are right, hams can be effective at the local and regional levels, but you are wrong that most don't want to help out at red cross shelters--unless you've been trained by the red cross to assist at their shelters, they'll also turn you away. Red cross has their methods and reasons--most of which are liability issues--to do so.
The hitch is that to get their training you have to go where the training is given, sometimes 60 or 70 miles away, and then they'll 'solicit' contributions from the trainees to defray their expenses. The solicitation is usually at the beginning of the class, fill out the registration and PAY this contribution. We'll not be able to issue your completion credentials for the class unless you do so.
This was brought up before on this site, in discussion about another article. It's not reasonable for volunteers to have to pay to get mandated training. Never was, and never will be.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KC8VWM on July 24, 2006
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"In 1998, total annual volunteer hours reached 19.9
billion. Of these total hours, an estimated 15.8
billion hours were given to volunteering activities
performed through organizations, such as giving
time to hospitals, schools, churches, or shelters.
In 1998, total formal volunteer hours given through
organizations represented an estimated value of $225.9
billion, a 12.1 percent increase over 1995 values ($201.5 billion).
Total volunteer hours constitute an enormous
reservoir of skills and energy that represents the
equivalent of 93 million full-time employees."
References The Independant Sector for Volunteers, Keith Hume (2001) America’s Informal Volunteers,4 , ISBN 0-929556-05-4.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by RADIOGUYR2 on July 24, 2006
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training! Training! don't need no stinking training.
Hams are modular plugin's. You get your radio set up and then send everyone elses messages per instructions.
Its become big business to get hams to join in the volenteer, free equipment and labor, so that the powers to be don't have to spend their money for it.
If you join a traffic net, be it cw, phone, mars or other you will soon find that ya make the grade or else quit.
All the rest of the training that FEMA and EC's charge you for, including the assumption that your a ARRL, good buddy member, is just so much control hype. I was reading what others wrote before. A lady named Greta put it in perspective in on of her earlier posts on EC and volenteers.
Besides, what you going to do when your radio quits on you? It was dispickable that the ARRL took money from the Govn't for services given during the last storms. Just proved that what others said was right. "Its all about the money" While some never even got a thank you others got theirs'
One should not go into service with the notion that one is going to be honored for doing so. However, that being said they also should not have to pay for getting on the team either. Some sort of credit and waver should be allowed. (although this can also be considered a gratatutidy---)
"you just a radio operator making contacts--" is what EC operations are about for hams. Your not their to save the day.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KC5TTL on July 24, 2006
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I understand the FCC rules on not taking money for ham work ...
and to me that means that someone can't hand me a hundred dollars to send a message out for them or give me money to let them make a phone call...
but that does not mean that i cannot be reimbursed for my travel, per diem, gas, food, insurance,etc by those that i am supporting. Yes I know that its a fine line -- but Red Cross personnel are on salary , Salvation Army folks get paid, FEMA and DHS and DoD folks are all paid, so if i am also contributing to the rescue then why shouldn't I.
ARRL gave out grant money for equipment lost or destroyed... ICOM and Kenwood did the same ... also ARRL reimbursed folks for milage and lodging and food -- so whats the difference in me helping either on direct salary (like everyone else around me) or put on some sort of stipend as a defacto ARRL employee???
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W3STG on July 24, 2006
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> Not all FEMA training is available on-line. Some courses (e.g., 300) currently are not offered on-line.
Folks, I had the opportunity to attend an all day seminar on how to teach the NIMS/ICS courses. We were specifically asked not to teach IS-300/400 to our individual groups. This is because the 300/400 courses are exercise based, and to be meaningful the exercises need to involve multi-disciplinary participants. Preferably mixing groups of people who don't normally work together.
The idea is to emphasize the ability to adapt ICS to any situation and any mix of participants.
This is just not something that can be done in an on-line environment.
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by WF7A on July 24, 2006
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I'm not disagreeing with you John--in fact, I agree wholeheartedly! I'm just curious at what exact point--just short of actually operating on the air--hams are allowed to receive compensation.
My only concern is that if we were to receive compensation, some unscrupulous hams would try to make money instead of break even.
As for gratitutidy, Pat--I think that's a a neatly written (as in tidy) waiver. :)
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by K1CJS on July 24, 2006
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Radioguyr2 said:
"All the rest of the training that FEMA and EC's charge you for....."
Why don't you get informed before you open your mouth and prove you're a fool? FEMA courses are available on-line, no charge, and ECs, as hams and ARRL members, aren't supposed to charge for their services, just for the costs of materials that are needed.
By your hype and carrying on, everybody knows by now you are the former 'whaturnuts2' who got booted off this forum before. Do yourself a favor and read and research before you post, it'll save you furthur embarrassment.
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by W6TH on July 24, 2006
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.
Many of us of the past have been well trained for any sort of emergencies. The past is long gone and not here today.
This is what it takes moreso than the training of preparedness. Do you hams have it, are your ready for it.
Security= Freedom from risk or danger= This is impossible. No such thing as being secure.
Emergency= A serious situation or occurrence that happens unexpectedly and demands immediate action.
Loyalty= The state or quality of being loyal. A feeling or attitude of devoted attachment and affection.
Fidelity= Faithfulness to obligations, duties, or observances.
Organized= Affiliated in an organization that will be functioning within a formal structure, as in the coordination and direction of activities; efficient and methodical.
All of the above is what is and will be demanded of a group to be involved in emergencies.
Behind a microphone is not enough to handle any emergency situation. Do you honestly believe that any and all organizations in ham radio are ready? It takes more of the above to give an indication; or to qualify.
It may go as far as one lost life to save anothers life, that is; preparation is more than adequate.
Remember, the life you save, may be your own.
.:
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RE; Arrl's never ending quest for MONEY
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by W9WHE-II on July 24, 2006
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ANYONE NOTICE THE HIPOCRACY?
On one hand, arrl wants to "dumb down" the standards to get a license. On the other, it wants to offer course after course "educate" and "train" you on emcomm.
QUESTION: If knowlege is so important to arrl, how come they don't think you need it to get a license?
ANSWER: Because arrl can make money off of emcomm training, but not ham training.
REMEMBER: When it comes to arrl, its ALL about the MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!
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RE: RE; Arrl's never ending quest for MONEY
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by W6TH on July 24, 2006
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.
REMEMBER: When it comes to arrl, its ALL about the MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!
-------------------------------------------
There is no need to increase the membership because the ARRL gets grants from the tax payers money.
The ARRL does not pay income taxes and that is an agreement with the IRS and ARRL. Yes, the ARRL is free and clear of income taxes. The employees do pay income taxes, but not the employer, which is the ARRL.
The reason that the ARRL does not pay income taxes is because the ARRL provides a service and that service is selling QST and other magazines. The IRS calls this a service to the public.
How about that.
.:
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by N2RRA on July 24, 2006
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Seem's to me that A.R. volunteer's long ago till fairly not that long ago were fairly/very effective. They volunteered because they had one thing in mind. How can we contribute to society by being a respectable human being. Plus! experience would be invaluable, or what ever other reason besides operate the rigs, and have something to prove. What happened to that? Now everything is about money! I don't require anything when I know I'm making a difference to better my community, country, family and way of life. My volunteering doesn't require increase in taxes, funding for my personal gear unless damaged. Doesn't require waiting around for someone to do something for my family, community, country or myself that I can't do for myself and know it'll get done right and promptly.
I do agree that we should'nt have to pay anything for emergency training classes that we volunteer for. Although proper training is a must to get the job done right for those who genually want to assist. We start getting paid, guess what? You leave the gov't. excuse to tax you for something else. You think their not? That's a second income to them. How much will you come home for your efforts now?
I'd rather keep the integrity of which Ameteur Radio was based on, and know the job is getting done promptly by my own efforts.
Keep in mind that of course there are limits to which we can assist, but all this is circumstantial, and remains to be seen. We do what we can at that time. No one is asking us to do it. We do it out the kindness of our hearts. At least that's how I've always seen it. That's more rewarding to me than any dollar amount. "You can't punch with an opened hand because you'll break your fingers , but if you punch with a closed fist you'r a lot stronger". That's how we should all be. To many difference's of opinion does more damage that I know of.
Integrety, Loyalty, honor, respect and love that's what weve all forgotten.
73 all,
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by N2RRA on July 24, 2006
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I should have said, " some of us have forgotten".
Opps! my bad!
73,
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by N2RRA on July 24, 2006
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I should have said, " some of us have forgotten".
Opps! my bad!
73,
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W9WHE-II on July 24, 2006
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W6TH writes:
"Remember, the life you save, may be your own".
What?
You mean people are responsible for their own well being? That people just can't stand by, waiting for the government to provide transportation, food, clothing, shelter, money and entertainment?
I thought people were "entitled" to get everything from the government. You make it sound like people should take responsibillity for their own well being.
WHAT A RADICAL CONCEPT!
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KD7YVV on July 24, 2006
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You know, I was on Hamsexy.com reading some of the
stuff on there. Some of the things I've read were
literally unbelieveable.
One story was about an ARES person who kept getting in
the way at an accident scene or something, being
escorted behind the lines by police who were already
on-scene only to get in the way and have his bike
run over by a fire truck.
Another one was even funnier, and it's still on their
front page:
(Quote)
�To All:
At the request of the American Red Cross in Greater New York, as of 3:30 this afternoon ARES was placed on stand-by. The Red Cross has informed me that, after meeting with NYC officials, there is a possibility of power outages occuring in sections of the City due to the extremely high demand for, and usage of, electricity. Should an outage occur, we will need operators to act as communications support for some of the borough Chapter offices to provide a link to the EOC at Red Cross HQ in Manhattan.
Please be advised that this is NOT - NOT - NOT an activation! This is only a heads-up to the membership that we may be needed should an emergency occur. Please have your equipment ready to go, and make certain that you either talk to your borough EC first, or obtain information from the Citywide net that will be held on the Citywide frequencies (CityWide 1, 2 or 3) BEFORE YOU DEPLOY! I repeat - PLEASE DO NOT EVER SELF-DEPLOY!.�
1. I can smell all the sweaty, musty reflective vests coming out of the closet already as hammies break out the ancient HTs and hardhats.
2. Isn�t it sad that the ARES coordinator (or section manager, or whatever he�s called) needs to state MULTIPLE times that this is not an activation and to NOT self-deploy? I guess that means they�ve had fully vested-out ARES members show up on the scene before, ordering emergency staff around?
ARES: �Hi. I�m from ARES. And I�m here to take over communications.�
Real Emergency Worker: �Sure thing. You go stand over there next to the guys from RISAR.�
(End Quote)
Look at the tone of that letter....
Oh God! Don't ever self deploy! Please for all that
is holy, don't ever self deploy! We beg you!!!!
I do disagree with that on a few points:
Those who are properly trained and understand the
Incident Command Structure know not to ever self-deploy.
I think in many ways, the training itself is beneficial.
On one hand, you gain an understanding into the
workings of the agency you're serving.
On the other, the agency knows who it's dealing with,
what their training level is, and what their capabilities are.
Think about it, if you were a served agency, would you
want an unknown person with God knows what level of
training, who doesn't understand your internal
structure, come in and start barking orders all
because they have a ham license, yellow flashing
lights on their car and magnetic signs that say
"Ham Communications" or "ARES"?
I've said it before, I'll say it again, any ham that's
in any form of emergency services, like ARES or
search & rescue, that thinks they have any authority
over paid professional emergency workers ought to
have their membership in ARES etc. revoked.
I'm all for training because of the reasons stated
above. You learn how things work, how to work within
the structure of the agency you're serving and most
importantly, you learn you have absolutely no authority
beyond a normal average every-day citizen that's a
volunteer. You work UNDER the agency that you're
volunteering for and YOU listen to THEM, not the other
way around. This begs the question, how did ARES get
a reputation as a bunch of cop/fire wannabes that
show up where they're not needed? It's very simple.
It's because it HAS happened. It's for this reason
that served agencies started requiring some form of
training.
One good thing about a lot of the training is, at least
where I am, I'm considered an emergency worker when
I'm deployed through the sheriff's department.
This means, if anything happens, like an injury or
accident, I'm covered by the same insurance that
the paid professionals have. As a rule and it is a rule
never broken, unless I have a DEM number come over
my pager, or I'm given a DEM number over the repeater
by the Operations Leader (liason between sheriff and
search & rescue) I do not EVER deploy.
The sheriff knows what kind of person they're getting,
I know how to work with the deputies and everyone is
happy. As far as the orange vest goes, yes, I do have
one. It sits in my trunk. If I come upon an accident,
and professionals aren't already there, I put the
first aid training to use, and wear the vest so I
can be seen by oncoming traffic. So for me, it's a
matter of safety, especially in the winter months where
we get snow in the mountains and it gets dark early.
Yellow lights? Nope. Don't need them. I had heard that
there was a study done that says flashing lights can
actually cause an accident.
Also, in this sue-happy country, suppose you have no
first aid training, and you "treat" an injured person
paralyzing them for life? The good samaritan law only
goes so far. First thing you'd be asked is did you
inform the victim you were trained in first aid?
Did you ask the victim's permission to treat them?
Do you have the training to do so? If not, good luck
in court.
Hopefully, I've shown two sides of a very important
coin. It seems we have our ham frequencies because we
have the ability to provide communications in a
disaster, and we do so as a public service.
If we're going to serve, we should at least learn how
to do it correctly.
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W6TH on July 24, 2006
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.
The ARRL made a very big Boo Boo and will take years to correct. The Boo Boo was getting more complainers into the ham hobby game and also less membership comparing the newly entered and the percentage that joined the league membership.
Getting rid of the ARRL is impossible and let me set an example:
You go to court fighting that a problem exists between the Public and the Government. You want your taxes reduced or to not pay taxes at all. The judge is paid by your taxes, the District Attorney is also paid by your taxes. Your lawer is paid by you to settle this case. Do you think that the judge is going to be in your favor even though you are correct? Do you think that the DA will also be in your favor? Of course not, as they both are being paid with your taxes.
Seems to me that taxes are collected and used to punish the tax payer. Doesn't this make sense to you? It does to me.
Laugh and the whole world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone.
Dieu benissent notre liberte.
.:
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W4LGH on July 24, 2006
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As I said in an earlier post, I am now a FREE agent! My time and equip. is just that, MINE! I have volunteered more time and equip. over the past years than I can keep track of. I have answered the call to get shelters manned, and equiped with radios, I have also answered the call to take several manditory training courses, that personally I felt was a joke.
But all that is OVER NOW! I do NOT have to answer to anyone now, be called by the DEC and raked over the coals because someone in your ARES group got their feeling hurt, or was asked to do something they didn't want to. I don't have to listen to a group of people GRIPE about NOT doing anything, then GRIPE when you ask then to do something. Ham radio is supposed to be FUN, being an ARES Official was NOT FUN. Being a member of the ARRL is NOT fun anymore, however I have almost another year left on my membership, but it will not be renewed, as it does NO GOOD! Only get letters asking to GIVE GIVE GIVE, sums of money that only a few people I know could afford to throw away!
Am I bitter? Of course I am, but these are my issues and I have cured this problem. Now I can move ahead and have FUN playing Ham Radio. I paid my dues, over and over again. I will of course continue to help out in times of need with communications, only when asked by someone needing a relay or a msg passed on the air.
For some reason, I don't think you need to be so damn formal when calling someone family member to let them know their family is ok, just with power and phone service. ARRL Msg # 17463 R Family ok [stop] will call when we are able [stop] its all BULL. Were NOT OFFICIAL, we are Ham Radio operators!
I wish ARES all the Best, but at the present rate, it looks to me like they are trying to make ARES to Official, just like they did RACES, and we all know what happened to RACES!
Good Luck to all ARES Members!
73 de W4LGH - Alan (EX-EC)
http://www.w4lgh.com
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by WY3X on July 24, 2006
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Many require the training offered by FEMA and/or the
ARRL. I, for one, have been in training with my local
fire department for the last 20+ years. I will never sit
through another class on emergencies as long as I live!
I'm sick of it! Not CPR, not first aid, not radioactive
response, not shelter manager, NOTHING. If they make
a short-version update class that takes 30 minutes to
one hour to complete, I'll reconsider, but I'm not
sitting an entire day to hear a repeat of what I already
know!
If you need me, call me, I'll be there. But don't
call me to sit through another class, you'll find
yourself with an empty chair!
-KR4WM
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by RADIOGUYR2 on July 24, 2006
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K1CJS on July 24, 2006
Radioguyr2 said:
"All the rest of the training that FEMA and EC's charge you for....."
Why don't you get informed before you open your mouth and prove you're a fool? FEMA courses are available on-line, no charge, and ECs, as hams and ARRL members, aren't supposed to charge for their services,-----
just for the costs of materials that are needed.----
By your hype and carrying on, everybody knows by now you are the former 'whaturnuts2' who got booted off this forum before. Do yourself a favor and read and research before you post, it'll save you "--furthur-- (sp)" embarrassment.
Really! Well it seems you're in here to flame someone like you did on other posts. Your buddy, nut2, probably is looking for you since you clearly state that you booted him off. Your derangement stems partially from your ability to not read correctly. (you know how you old hams are without your glasses') However, you talk about hype and carrying on!! since when is a ham allowed to charge or take donations for anything related to his radio operations.
You seem to be under the assumption that you can charge for materials and supplies that you need to preform your public service. wrong! Let me illuminate you. With your thoughts you need to see the IRS. I am sure they will be wanting to talk with you about INCOME tax evasion. Seems they take a very dim view of people like you who cheat while operating. The Tax Man is very clear about volenteering and what is and isn't able to be written off.
Clearly your reading into the regulations and guidelines that the FCC sets forth to meet your own needs and hype. Go back and read it again. It says that you can not charge, or take a donation for your services. How the Arrl and others get out of not being held to the same fire is byond me. (well not really as you can understand politics and back scratching. Maybe they are classified as a religion these days)
So you dont think that FEMA and EC charge for the courses that you have to take to get your card? I can see your time is not worth anything to you?
And from what you wrote it appears not only are you having way too much time on your hands but exhibiting a strong case of dementia as well as conceitedness.
Do yourself a favor K1CJS. read and research before you post, it'll save you "--further-- (sp correctly)" embarrassment.
Your accusing someone of being someone else!! I would be very careful!!!! again you are embarrass'ing yourself.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W4LGH on July 24, 2006
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Stop feeding the Flames oxygen and it will flicker and die!
Come on guys...stop bickering...just post "YOUR OPINION" and state its your opinion. Everyone has that right!
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by N6PEH on July 24, 2006
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I just love this EmComm stuff! It is a really great way to fill the day. We had a really huge parade here a while back and it was fun listening to the HAM radio traffic. Where are you now? I'm over here. Where? Over here. All check points check-in. Be advised that somebody just fainted from the heat. Do they need assistance? No a policeman is helping them. Does the policeman need your help? Standby....negative, he said to stand back and stay out of the way. Thank you. Do you require assistance? Can I go on break now? You'll have to wait for your replacement. Roger that. Please advise my replacement that I really need a break, if you know what I mean. Standby... I need all check points to check-in now. ( 20 minutes later) Where's my replacement? Standby for check-in traffic! How many check points need another full bottle of water? I think everybody needs more drinking water. Standby. I am desperate here. Standby for priority traffic! We need lots more water, lots! Now I know why they call it a "go bag"!!!
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by RADIOGUYR2 on July 24, 2006
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by N6PEH on July 24, 2006
I just love this EmComm stuff! It is a really great way to fill the day.
You forgot LUNCH! and IS IT TIME TO GO HOME YET?
its fun to listen in on the nets that are conducting these things. There so exciting that after 10 min. of listening you fall asleep in the chair. What a deal.
If its a big disaster no one wants to go away from the family. If its too small and no one wants to help. either way ham radio is a great hobby.
(the exceptions are the skywarn and other weather related groups which really do have a place on the ham bands. Are these considered EMCOMMs'?)
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KF4VGX on July 24, 2006
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KR4WM on July 24, 2006 " Quote "
Many require the training offered by FEMA and/or the
ARRL. I, for one, have been in training with my local
fire department for the last 20+ years. I will never sit
through another class on emergencies as long as I live!
I'm sick of it! Not CPR, not first aid, not radioactive
response, not shelter manager, NOTHING. If they make
a short-version update class that takes 30 minutes to
one hour to complete, I'll reconsider, but I'm not
sitting an entire day to hear a repeat of what I already
know!
If you need me, call me, I'll be there. But don't
call me to sit through another class, you'll find
yourself with an empty chair!
-KR4WM
I've been reading this mans post for years now .
Webster , sit down and " Shut Up "
You gave it up " So BE IT " its over your retired !
Enjoy life all ready .
You stated ,training with my local
fire department for the last 20+ years !
Great outstanding , What do you want a medal ?
You have repeatedly stated that same chest thumping issue for years now .
Your not the only person who has dedicated their time and effort for others .
" At least you were paid "
You stated ,I'm sick of it!.
So be it , move on .
Let the guys who want to train and provide their expertise have a turn at the bat .
Stop runing it for the Amateurs that are willing to participate.
The sound of an old LP record stuck in position comes to mind here .
GEE WIZZES ! Some peoples kids.
- KF4VGX
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by K1CJS on July 24, 2006
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Hey Radio whatever,
I'm ROTFLOL! Again YOU didn't read the info posted. Now you claim I said:
"You seem to be under the assumption that you can charge for materials and supplies that you need to preform your public service." (Don't you mean 'perform'?)
Nope. I said we "aren't supposed to charge for (our) services, just for the costs of materials that are needed." In other words, pass on the costs of materials we buy for others. We can't make any money, but can be compensated for monies we spend. To put it very simply, (you seem to need that) if I buy a training book for $10 for someone else, I can collect that $10 from them.
I'm having a hard time explaining, I'm not used to talking to children--and I'm still LOL!
Next, you said "So you dont think that FEMA and EC charge for the courses that you have to take to get your card? I can see your time is not worth anything to you?"
First, EC isn't an agency or organization, it's a person. "EC" is an "Emergency Coordinator". A person--similar to what you appear to be. Second, the online FEMA courses are available free of charge. You complete the course and get your certificate ONLINE. There are sites that DO NOT CHARGE! Third, Yes, my time is worth a lot to me--why should I pay someone else for it--they should be paying ME for MY time!!! (Sorry, You're really making me LOL!)
And last--but not least--your correcting someone else where spelling is concerned--Oh, brother! Talking about the pot calling the kettle black! Look at your spelling mistake above and in your other posts!
And as far as my accusing you of being that other guy, no, I'm saying straight out that you ARE that other guy. Why don't you send some more 'code' here, spelling errors and all? LOL again!!!!!
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by KB4YKJ on July 25, 2006
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KR4WM you have hit the nail on the head. First of all I am a retired former police officer. I've held all ranks from dispatcher to Assistant Chief of Police. I am not sitting through classes that I pay for when I've already had this stuff and was paid for attending it.
Secondly, I'm not kissing the butt that's required in these little clicks to boost egos of people who have never been anything in their lives and their self worth depends on their title.
Third the ARRL will never get a penny for anything from me.
To begin with this is a hobby. The purpose is to talk on the radio. Any volunteer work is a credit to us. If you want us to provide our time, gas, equipment and transportation at $3+ per gallon provide us with the training for free. Since they are requiring it they should furnish it. I have no problem working for free because it's a civic responsibility but since I am disabled I'm not paying money I can't afford just so I can say I'm certified.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by QRZDXR on July 25, 2006
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K1CJS on July 24, 2006
Hey Radio whatever,
I'm ROTFLOL! Again YOU didn't read the info posted. Now you claim I said:
Wow dude you must really have a major personal short in the brain somewhere CJS. What the radio dude is trying to get across to your mental defecent memory is that you are way wrong in charging for materials and supplies you use while your doing your thing for the emergency groups. Show us where it says you can be re-embursed or can write off these supplies in the TAX code or in the ARRL code of ethics. Shouldn't be too hard for someone like you to show us all what section of the US tax code it say you can. Ok then if you can't how about showing us where it says it in the ARRL or FCC rules.
I think he is stating that the IRS doesn't even allow it. But, as usual your half crocked to the gills and manage to get things turned around so you think they are right.
Hey Here is a flash for you. Lets assume for a moment your right. If you were right and I could write off to the org. the supplies and equipment needed or used for the emergency. I could go out and buy a brand new Kenwood 2000 and charge 'em for it if I used it during the time of the emergency. Yahoo I could get the radio of my dreams and not have to pay a cent for it according to your logic, I can get re-imbursed for it or write it off on my state/fed taxes. Now do you see how your comment is a little wild and off center.
Heck every ham would be volenteering for everything as they then could get new radios, antennas, genarators (heck why not a new car or boat too) just about everything else they didnt have before using your logic as the means they suddenly could afford free. ONLY ONE PROBLEM -- YOUR WRONG--and you can't.
Hey don't take my word for it. Go ask the IRS that you have been cheating all these years you thought you could.
Attt wrong answer-- thanks for playing the game bozo.
The radio dude is only stating some of what he knows about and your flaming him?
CJS-- Why is it that you are conteniously trying to flame people and get some more of your stupidity ego going when you don't know what your talking about.
As the guy above said-- chill out and quit being a pompas ogar belitting people who have a right to say what they want. If you disagree fine leave it at that. But, you take great pride in trying to degrade and step on people. You don't seem to be able to get the peanut butter out of your ears and hear too good. So you contenue on.. and on..and on.. trying to prove your a winner instead of the loser you really are.
Lets see-- So far you have accused him of being someone else and continuously are nipping at his heels like some junk yard dog. Keep it to yourself old flamemaster. I know you have lots of problems trying to be normal. Try harder. (you should also be ashamed for calling Gretta a donkey show prostitute. ( you ran her off-- you big man you) You have some brass to do that to a fellow ham. But by all indications your a self made man in your own mind.
If she was my wife and you said that, you would be asking her forgivness on your knees. your brass is rolling around on the floor like a wobbling top. Your comment was lude, crude, despicable and un-called for. It showed exactly what kind of man/rat you really are. Most definately a outstand pillar of salt in the ham orginization after that comment)
You might try to look at the good side and up instead of negative and down all the time CJS. (Who knows the sun might come out and shine in your life once again.) I am sure we all will be a lot happier if you quit being the rear end of the mule/donkey or just take your perversions somewhere else. Its getting old dude. Grow up and get over it. Lets not have this conversation again. You might want to start treating other hams as people too instead of object to overcome.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by QRZDXR on July 25, 2006
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Oh and K1CJS,
Jesus loves all creaturs big, small and even you after what you did.
remember that always.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W4LGH on July 25, 2006
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Once again, a serious article has gone up in FLAMES!
Guess its time to throw some water on it and move on.
As they say, been there, done that, and got the T-shirt! Now its time to let someone else do it! If you
want to be a part of ARES, so be it, but for me, I done, tired of the games, politics, and basic BS. Time to let someone else be the "VIP" and I'll sit back quietly and do my own thing.
73
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by N8QBY on July 25, 2006
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You would think that if someone is going to leave comments on here, that they could at least use their amateur radio callsign. If they don't, isn't is kind of like hiding behind mama's skirt? :o)
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by K8MHZ on July 25, 2006
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"To begin with this is a hobby. The purpose is to talk on the radio."
One would have to seriously debate that statement after reading Part 97, specifically the often quoted 97.1, the Intent and Purpose of the Amateur Radio Service. The word hobby appears nowhere in Part 97.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W9WHE-II on July 25, 2006
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Some emcomm "bunker boys" will make entrance into "their" fifedom as difficult as possible, so as to consolidate their own grip on power and secure their own place in the sun. Its like any other volunteer entity, egos and fifedoms reign supreme and the true professionals shy away.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W4LGH on July 25, 2006
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That last statement has my VOTE! All of these people try to create their own fifedom, I guess to make them feel important. Hell even our govt officials do the same thing. They all forget they work for US, and not the other way around.
When your own AEC's create their own fifedom, it was time to give it up! I own, run and maintain the local ARES repeater here in the county, and I will continue to do this, and I will do what I can from my home in an emergency situation. But NO more formalities for me. They can have it!!
If asked and I can, I will, other wise I am out of it!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KC8VWM on July 25, 2006
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http://emilms.fema.gov/
Well that was a breeze.
What's next?... IS-200?
73
Charles - KC8VWM
IS-100
http://emilms.fema.gov/ICS100G/index.htm
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by RADIOGUYR2 on July 25, 2006
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The basic question here is.
Do you want to help?
Do you know how to help?
are you ready to help?
You have to be non-biased
All this talk about EMCOMM training yet no one has said what one needs to know. (other than its a waist of time for hams to sit through)
Sure you have your ham ticket that allows you on the air to communicate. That in itself is about all you really need to know about the EOC. To do it effectivly and with professionalism is about all you really need to brush up on. Its your equipment, so you already know how to run it. Nothing hard about that.
So whats to know? paperwork and forms?
Looking at the Skywarn people who seem to have it togeather, one could ask how do they make it work?
The other aspects of the emergency is taking care of your personal bod. I think I have been brushing my teeth and taking showers long enough to know how its done without someone telling me how.
FEMA and others are still lost in space when it comes to exactly what hams should do. Hams are not cooks, garbage haulers or ticket takers. Hams are modular in that they can be adapted to anyone that needs commucations established. Hams are bacground people. Hams are not leaders they are providers.
Did I leave anything out?
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by K1CJS on July 25, 2006
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"Some emcomm "bunker boys" will make entrance into "their" fifedom as difficult as possible, so as to consolidate their own grip on power and secure their own place in the sun."
True words won't ever be heard. Its been seen in action in many places--too many. For some, its isn't worth it anymore. When the chips are down and the "bunker boys" fold under the pressure, the authorities will be looking for the other hams that always came through. Too bad some will be 'not available'.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by K1CJS on July 25, 2006
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N8QBY--
Thanks for reminding me of something I've had done in the past, I had forgotten it. You're right--if there isn't a callsign or an identification on the article or in a profile, it isn't worth answering the 'nobody' who posted.
Apologies for having answered the 'nobody' who posted and for stirring the pot.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KC8VWM on July 25, 2006
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Sure you have your ham ticket that allows you on the air to communicate. That in itself is about all you really need to know about the EOC.
Hams are not cooks, garbage haulers or ticket takers. Hams are modular in that they can be adapted to anyone that needs communications established.
------------------
*** This is precisely what ICS attempts to clarify.***
The main purpose of ICS is to define specific roles and duties following what is termed as an "Incident Action Plan"
The idea of ICS is to engage in a specific command structure, with a specific set of resources, to accomplish a specific set of goals, in a specific amount of time.
In the past "multi agencies" would walk in and they would literally step over each other often attempting to duplicate the same variety of tasks.
This would often lead to "role confusion" and resources were wasted and inefficient. Think of it this way. Why would you call two seperate fire departments from two different juristictions to respond to one fire?
Well that's exactly the kind of thing ICS clears up.
In the ICS role it doesn't matter what agency you are serving under. ICS organizes our resource together so it becomes integrated as part of a single resource instead of having REACT / RACES / ARES or other similar multiple response agencies operating independantly of one another.
This is typically assigned by the Liason officer who's role is to "assimilate" these agencies together to function as one under a specific branch such as operations or logistics etc...
If you are providing trasportation by driving a truck then you become this function.
If you are providing emergency radio communication support, then you become that function etc..etc..
The bottom line is if you don't understand how this whole thing works then how can you effectively participate in something you don't understand?
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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by RADIOGUYR2 on July 25, 2006
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K1CJS on July 25, 2006
Thanks for reminding me of something I've had done in the past, I had forgotten it. (you seem to be doing a lot of forgetting lately)
Apologies for having answered the 'nobody' who posted and for stirring the pot.
You just don't quit do you. Talk about someone stirring the pot!!!
I am still waiting for your apologies for your accusation of me being someone else. You made the mistake not me. You man enough to retract it or do I just form a opinion of you like the others have already suggested?
I am also still looking forward to your PROOF that it is OK to be re-embursed for supplies as the other person said above. (grin) Or did you convenently forget about that too? Again the 'nobody' wants to know. You come on here spouting all this junk and when someone wants you to prove it, you can't. Can we add phoney and lier to your epithet.
Oh well Its a wonder you made it this long. (REF WA6GVG) You must be related or something?
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by WF7A on July 25, 2006
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Pat...Chris: even if he did have a call sign he'd misspell it.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by QRZDXR on July 26, 2006
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If you are providing trasportation by driving a truck then you become this function.
If you are providing emergency radio communication support, then you become that function etc..etc..
The bottom line is if you don't understand how this whole thing works then how can you effectively participate in something you don't understand?
73 Charles - KC8VWM
I concure.
First sensable thing I have read on this subject with the ham only needing to know how to run a radio and make contact with who ever his leadership (who he is assigned to) wants. I think someone before said that a ham radio operator provides a service not directions in a emergency.
So therefore why would a ham need EMCOMM training on how to drive a truck or open a fire hydrant? He doesn't have the need to know any of that-- I feel is a waist of his time and byond the scope of his needs and abilities. After all is the truck driver versed in operating the ham radio or the fire chief conserned about setting up a antenna to establish comm? I think not.
I also have not read anywhere about backup ham radios or field repairs for radios that fail in service. I guess again the ham is out of his abilities on that too.
Here on the web I have been also waiting for someone to do a review of the problems and shortages during the last major storm (katrina) I know I read in one place where batteries were in such short supply (no recharge power either due to bad or no gas) that the rescue crews were stripping their own batteries from radios and giving them to the survivors still in remote areas that they could not extract. Least then they had a AM radio to hear the weather reports and new info. I read in one town, upstate LA that was cut off, they had one transistor radio and would turn it on. Over 100 people would gather to listen to what was being said on the news. it was there only info with the outside world. When a small CAP plane landed on the road to see what they needed, the first thing they asked for was not food , nor water but batteries for the radio as they were running out.
This then brings up the support issues for the hams that are in the "zone". Who, what, when and where do they get backup and care packages of needed supplies?
One last issue I have. When the ARRL made up the go boxes with radios, etc. If they are not used wouldn't they get like stored gas? Stale and have reliability problems when pressed into service. That is provided someone remembers where they put it after all those years and its not pilfered out of the case by someone else. I have not seen a mention about a test and cycle card for the equipment stored.
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by QRZDXR on July 26, 2006
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by WF7A on July 25, 2006
Pat...Chris: even if he did have a call sign he'd misspell it.
WF7A... man if I had a call sign like yours I would trade it back in and get somethig else. Do you know what it says in basic crude gay words? I'll bet you get a lot of people chuckling at you with that one... However in SFO you would no doubt be in demand...and hit on. Art had k(9)F(friendly)U (uncle)C (charlie) (his name) guess what happens when he send it in CW and Clears with K... or wants others to stay out with KN.. The Fcc asked that he submit a call change on that one... one week after he got it due to complaints...on CW.. LOL
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by WF7A on July 26, 2006
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Dude, that dig was meant for RadioGuy2, so chill.
A gay call sign, eh? Nothing gay about the words whiskey, foxtrot, and alpha in any of the dictionaries and esoteric lexicons I have...of which I own and am hip to many. WF7A is here to stay until I move to another call district.
I find it amusing that in a thread about EMCOMM you make silly acronyms out of call signs...which in any EMCOMM situation--as well as in normal operating practice--one should _always_ use the ICAO-established acronyms; not doing so wastes time and adds confusion on-the-air. (I've always wondered by police departments don't use the ICAO alphabet, but that's not for minds like mine to ponder.)
No need to respond--I'm outta here; I'm off to a higher "calling": QRZ.com.
Ciao,
Rich
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by N3PAQ on July 26, 2006
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Scott NA4IT, you seem to have a serious issue with the ARRL. I hear their training is pertty good.
I sort of understand this training bandwagon, but it has gone to the extreem. I never expect my role in an disaster to be anything more than a conduit to communications. Give me a message, tell me how urgent it is, and where it needs to go, and I'm good.
That being said, since they will tell me not to assist in any way if I don't have some sort of proof that I've passed the FEMA training, I guess I'll get around to it one day.
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by AB0WR on July 26, 2006
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
k8mhz:"To begin with this is a hobby. The purpose is to talk on the radio."
One would have to seriously debate that statement after reading Part 97, specifically the often quoted 97.1, the Intent and Purpose of the Amateur Radio Service. The word hobby appears nowhere in Part 97.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you'll look, it doesn't mention the word "professional" either -- as in "trained professional".
You *will* find the word "voluntary".
If people want to pay for being trained in order to be seen as having acceptable credentials for certain organizations, that is their choice. If others want to volunteer for organizations that don't require such, that is an acceptable choice also.
Obtaining the same training as professionals should not be pushed by any one, including the ARRL, as an expectation of being licensed in the Amateur Radio Service.
tim ab0wr
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by KI4MF on July 26, 2006
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Well, at least this threat is not boring! I am a middle-aged Ham (well, perhaps older) that was active in the early 1970s, but let my license lapse for over 20 years while in the Marines. As I just became active again, I think it is most interesting to compare the two groups of hams - 1970 or so vs. today's ham.
In the 70s experimentation and sharing of information was excellent. The "old guys," Elmers, were always more than happy to help the new and upcoming guys.
Today’s prospective? What's in it for me? I know, but I won't tell you..... Your question is addressed in the archives....
What can I say? These are just my personal observations.
Why all this long-winded ramblings? Well as it relates to emergency communications, I do agree 100% with standardization of operations and terminology (no more 10 codes).... Simplicity often works best.
For the training, I have no problem at all on taking FEMA Courses on line (and I have). It stops there though. I have no time to travel as I still have to work.
For the ARRL Emergency Training - One fee for a member and another higher fee for non-member?
I also just started MARS operations, and I must say - their spirit of comradely and quickness to help the new guy is refreshing.
Emergency Comms, MARS or rag chewing on 80, all share a common denominator - you do it by choice.
Same applies to ARES I think.
I received the below information from a fellow Ham and I really enjoyed reading it. Perhaps many of you have seen it:
"How to Cannibalize Amateur Radio"
1. Agree that hams eat their young. Make fun of new hams, "put them down", and do not provide solid instruction and never set a good example of proficient operating or traffic handling.
2. Complain about everything that's right about amateur radio. Especially do this on the air and make jabs at those of us who are serious about not sounding like an idiot.
3. Bring up the past. Dig up old corpses. Pour salt in old wounds. Stick a knife in someone's back who has made you look like the idiot that your are.
4. Make students and new hams feel unwelcome.
We don't need them or want them to stick around or come back. Show them that you don't care about anything but your own little selfish world.
5. Don't share and don't include. Be sure that your group remains "pure" by keeping it "exclusive". Since the same good ol' boys have run everything for decades, they must know best.
6. Point fingers. Be sure to let YLs know that they are second class hams. And forget about allowing anyone who dresses or looks different (than the nerds in your group) to have a voice or even participate in any meaningful way.
7. Don't participate. Avoid all actual work, responsibility, loyalty and leadership. Let others carry the load. And by all means, never stand up for what is right. Why get involved? After all..."it's only a hobby"!
8. Don't require or question politicians, government employees or leaders of NGOs. Since they are being paid "the big bucks" they must know what's best for us.
9. Continue to equivocate about upgrading or advancing your radio skills. Don't bother to learn the Morse language. (They are going to stop requiring it anyway.) Why learn how to solder? And if the repeater breaks down, there's always CB.
10. Stay comfortable with the status quo.
Why bother? Sit back. Relax. Take life easy. Don't volunteer for net control. Let someone else do it. Watch TV instead. You worked hard for your ham license so why should you need to learn anything more? Especially if it's traffic handling, public service or emergency communications.
I could go on for a long time, but I will stop here. There are many changes going on, and change is unsettling at best. The same could be said for the digital mode revolution. My first question when I returned was where is the TNC?
Best 73s,
Hank KI4MF
Lead, follow or get outta the way!
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by W4LGH on July 26, 2006
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Boy, this thread could go on forever. Pretty much the same stuff I heard as the ARES EC. One of the reasons I resigned reciently. Training is training, anything you learn is something good, as there is nothing bad about learning anything. However, many good points have been made, and several of my nerves have certainly been twanged. Ove rthe past 4 years "OUR" role in this county has been to man the shelters and to provide communications between them and the EOC.
These communications basically were body counts, how many people were in the shelter, occasionally, we were called by one of the shelters asking us to make a phone call to a neighboor to see if power had been restored. Serious communications going on here, and that required us to go thru all this training? Last year we were required to take and pass the FEMA MINS 700 course. We did, what was basicaly learned was who was really in charge, and how little our role would be. We had practice drills, we participated in several, where it was pretended that all forms of communications were out, and we were the last hope. We passed with flying colors, we passed 10 msgs, to/from the disaster area to the EOC. Now how hard is that, that we should take all this additional training? No one in our group was interested in volunteering to go anywhere, hell 1/2 of them would probably be gone if we were to have a really serious problem. So there comes a point to where one has to say, why bother? We already know how to communicate, at least most of us, its the only role we are going to play, so why bother?
Maybe by now you're seeing why I got so dis-enchanted with all of this. My time, my equip.,my money out of my pocket, and now I have to do all this additional stuff to continue to give you my time, equip and money?
I am a very giving person, and I enjoy helping people, but there comes a point where it just isn't going to work. As I have said, I will continue to support the basic premiss of ARES, I will relay msgs, from my home, and make any necessary phone calls that I can to help out. But I am NOT going to put up with the POLITICAL BS anymore, have enough of that in regular life. Politics is as screwed up as a soup sandwich, and when it becomes the major focus of any group, its going to fail.
Its like the old song says... You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em and know when to RUN!
I do truely wish everyone in ARES the best of luck, and if you can only help one person, you've done a great job. I guess I will just be the renigade Ham radio operator out there that if I can pass a msg the gives comfort to someone or gets them out of harms way, then I will feel like I did my civic duty, and like another famous song.. I did it my way!
This wil be my last post on this topic, as I feel like it has been beaten to death, but it WAS something that was very near and dear to me until the POLITICS got in the way.
73 to all de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by WA5FLV on July 26, 2006
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Its' called Amateur Radio, "Hams".
Its' a hobby.
If you like emergency services, etc. Feel free to do that.
In the training I have seen so far and been involved in I have seen very little about operating a radio, putting up antennas, how to handle traddic. The basic Ham radio stuff.
I am a ARRL member. But it does concern me they present to organizations that they represent Amateur Radio. They don't represent me.
I choose the retain my independence and offer my assistance as a ham radio operator to emergency services or groups who need that kind of help. I don't wish to become a servant to a "served agency".
Rules and regulations are absolutely essential now and especially in the chaois of an emergency situtation. No one or group should be allowed special privledges under certain conditions, on the same freqs we all use.This just muddies the water even worse. More hard feelings.
We need very much to stay away from encrypted messages. These Agency's have there own means of p-assing that sort of traffic.
Its' a hobby. We volunteer to do what we know and do best.
Now I have spoke my mind. Knowing full well I will be blasted on here for speaking up. I'm just an average Joe. No axe to grind. No mean spirit. Just my oppinion.
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by W6EM on July 27, 2006
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Interesting comments.
Here's one opinion that I'll toss in that hasn't been voiced: Hams won't really be included as a formality by government (at regional and national levels) to a large extent due to the displacement of commercial interests. You know, the Mortorolas and the Merger/Acquisition Comm boys.
They don't want us spoiling their HUGE windfall muli-multi-million dollar 700MHz roll outs.
As testimony to that point, take a look at the Katrina Panel that the FCC commissioned. Did you see any hams on the panel? Did you see any military or national guard folks on the panel? Any Coast Guard on the panel? NO. None were asked.
Guess who was selected to be a member? None other than Motorola. Johnny-on-=the-spot post-Katrina with 700MHz radios galore (that no one could figure out how to use!!!)
Why wasn't M/A Comm at least asked as well? Probably because they could have been asked some REAL HARD QUESTIONS as to why the loss of their trunking controller in New Orleans killed all of the trunked repeaters in the area.
Folks, we don't cost much and are effective. With or without the ARRL-for-fee training. We would, however, get in the way of the big 700MHz pipe-dream roll out. A program that will further cripple the ability of our public safety agencies to operate in crises. Assuming, of course, that the existing repeaters are not replaced with three or four times as many repeaters and trunked controllers that won't bring down the whole system with a single-point failure......
73,
Lee
W6EM
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by WA4MJF on July 27, 2006
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Lee, because they're the Federal
guvment and the FCC has not one thing
to do with them. Any concerns they
have they will take to NTIA. Besides
they can operate just about anywhere
they would like to, especially in
emergencies. Y'all often hear
Coast Guard Miami on the ham 911
frequency of 14.3 MHz when there
is a boat or ship in distress, for
example.
73 de Ronnie
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by W4CNG on July 27, 2006
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W6EM and others:
Children:
When you lose power to the Central Controller on the top of a Multi-Story building that controls all of the Simul-Cast sites, it's all over. How are the City Field Tech's going to go up 30+ stories with enough power to let them see much more than the DEAD equipment with much more than a Flashlight???
All others:
These days you gotta get the Training that the local EOC's Require plus at least ARRL ECC-001 to get into the EOC. Not Rocket Science. You either do or you are OUT. Me, I'm going to support those that do all the T's and C's to do this while sitting Home at my Fully Compliant EOC station and multiple phone lines with DSL Internet Connections from 3 Sources. Been to New Orleans and many other Situations to fix the issues that the Wanna-Bee's thought they could fix. Time for the NewBies to Step up if you have the KNOWLEDGE and Qualifications to do so both ARES and Federal requirements. Yes, I hold the ADEC for Metro-Atlanta and a Membership in the ARRL, something that Leaders of ARES must have to SERVE. I also give the ARRL a challenge when I do not agree with what they Pontificate on. You cannot do it if you are not a member. I'm not right all of the time, and neither are they............
Steve W4CNG
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by K8MHZ on July 28, 2006
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"If you'll look, it doesn't mention the word "professional" either -- as in "trained professional".
You *will* find the word "voluntary".
If people want to pay for being trained in order to be seen as having acceptable credentials for certain organizations, that is their choice. If others want to volunteer for organizations that don't require such, that is an acceptable choice also."
Agreed. But I have never been involved with a volunteer organization that does not require some form of training, even if it is just a meeting or two revolving around expected and required behaviour.
"Obtaining the same training as professionals should not be pushed by any one, including the ARRL, as an expectation of being licensed in the Amateur Radio Service."
The training that is being required for those that decide to take an active role in EmComm is usually, if not always, administered to provide a level of awareness of the activities and demands of the paid pros, along with training that covers the methods of communications used by the particular area.
More in-depth training is available, but I have never heard of it being required.
Mark mhz
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by K8MHZ on July 28, 2006
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"TIME TO IGNORE POSTERS THAT DO NOT USE A CALLSIGN"
I agree.
If the poster does not have their call as part of their login name they should sign their posts with a call sign.
Officially, I am no longer going to respond to posters that do not have call signs. We are up to two, anyone else care to join us?
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by K8MHZ on July 28, 2006
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"Y'all often hear
Coast Guard Miami on the ham 911
frequency of 14.3 MHz when there
is a boat or ship in distress, for
example."
FWIW 14.300 is the home of the Maritime Mobile Service Net. Many amateurs out to sea rely on this frequency. Glad to hear that it's use has been beneficial to those in distress.
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by N4XYC on July 28, 2006
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Our local EMA Director is funding our emcomm training and testing 100%. He has even offered to pay for the donuts! Hi Hi
Yep , it's not rocket science. Its a 25 question multiple choice test. The question pool is right there at the end of each chapter in the form of quiz questions. It covers radiograms , Incident Command , your personal safety and how not to act stupid.
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by K1CJS on July 28, 2006
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"Officially, I am no longer going to respond to posters that do not have call signs. We are up to two, anyone else care to join us?"
Mark, once in a while the 'nobody' posters do come out with a valid opinion, question or answer. Miracles do happen--but right now, I'd agree with your view. Now its up to three.
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by K1CJS on July 28, 2006
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"Our local EMA Director is funding our emcomm training and testing 100%. He has even offered to pay for the donuts! Hi Hi "
John, yours is one of the few cities or towns that probably has been able to write training into the budget. When I was radio officer of my city EMA, the director and I had to scrounge to get things done--most of the time incidental items and equipment were paid for out of our own pockets. For instance, when my city radio let go there were no funds to get it replaced--I bought the replacement. Office supplies were usually bought with our funds as well.
When we were asked to write an application for funding from the then new department of homeland security, we asked if the funding for the EMA would increase. The answer--maybe, but the grants we get would go into the city general account--"there are other city departments that need equipment for emergencies too, you know."
Is it any wonder the director resigned--Or that I followed his lead? I think not. On the other hand, your city and director is doing it the right way. Good for you.
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by K8MHZ on July 28, 2006
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"Mark, once in a while the 'nobody' posters do come out with a valid opinion, question or answer. Miracles do happen--but right now, I'd agree with your view. Now its up to three."
That's a good point and thanks for joining us. I also know for a fact that there are some anons that have calls, are legit and don't act like idiots. The VAST majority of the no-calls are just here to harass us. I equate their presence to prank telephone callers.
I think the no-call posters that are legit will see our point and forgive us if we do what needs to be done to stop what the eHam staff should be stopping for us. If the legit no-call posters have an issue with being ignored, perhaps they will put some pressure on the eHam staff to stop the abuse of anonymous logins.
If not, we just continue to ignore them and ask that all of us that post with a legit call sign follow suit. I, for one, will answer any non-abusive message sent to my e-mail address no matter what the person wishes to discuss. I do feel, however, that if one wants to take shots at me in a public forum they will have to have a real ID or they will be shooting blanks.
Thanks again.
mhz
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KC4MEC on July 28, 2006
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We go through this in the volunteer rescue squad all the time. In my city we have only had paid medics for about two years, and they make up less than 20% of the total number of providers. For emergency medical services (EMS) the answer is clear; training and certification are required. As time goes on, we require more and more training. Luckily there are different levels of emergency medical technicians (EMTs). Each of the 5 levels requires more training. So, members can volunteer to the level that suits them. Every year we lose a couple of members who just cannot meet the recertificaion requirements. For new EMTs, we routinely lose half of every EMT class for various reasons. The city pays for the basic classes and recert classes. In addition, many volunteers pay out of pocket to attend any specialized training that is required, or for training that they just want. And hundreds do just that every year. In addition, instructors for special classes are not paid. Some reimbursement is available, but it is usually not enough and sometimes more trouble than it's worth to get.
With respect to amateur radio operators, I don't want emcomm volunteers to run a staging area or supervise the extrication branch. I want them to handle "message traffic". Even taking all of the FEMA or ARRL courses online will not truly enable you to really help during an emergency. Just like they won't help EMTs become proficient in incident command. You need real world practice, and you need it often.
So, what do I propose? I'd like to see some sort of tiered certification process. Emcomm hams should be proficient with their radios, antennas, laptops, GPS's, power sources and whatever else they want to use. There may already be online guides for setting up emcomm stations from nothing to full voice comms and internet messaging capability. Then it would be nice if the ham could demonstrate their capabilities. Recertification should be relatively painless, but comprehensive.
It's a shame to lose volunteers, but it is nice to have competent, practiced non-paid professionals to provide communications during a time when traditional rescources may be unavailable or overloaded. I've helped many new EMTs "fold up their cape" and become professional care givers and emergency scene managers. I'd like to see the same thing in ham emcomm. Keep the lights on your car if that makes you feel good, but become a valuable resource.
Thanks for reading,
John, KC4MEC
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by K8MHZ on July 28, 2006
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Well put John.
FWIW when the doo-doo hits the air pusher I hope to be able to offer a plethora of services from radio operator to electrician to stuff mover and thing fixer.
The more skills we have the more we have to offer. The better the relationship we have with the paid pros the more they will seek our services. The more we train with them and the more we work with them during public service events the more they will trust us.
No trust, no requests, no utilization of skills. It's kind of a zen thing if you think about it.
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by KB3LYC on July 29, 2006
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There are some (Libertarians) who believe that most if not all government agencies are terribly inefficient, a waste of taxpayers money and we don't need government to dictate citizen's activities, including Ham folks. We all know when the gov gets involved they create a real mess. Be that as it may there are opinions voiced on both sides of the EMCOMM training issue. The arguements pro and con do have merit.
A recent article in World Radio titled "Death of Volunteers" put forth some good arguements with respect to training verses pratical experience. The author also believes that the more certs required more Hams will walk away from putting the time in to meet the government demands to take these courses.
Hams have been at the fore of disasters for decades. FEMA has demonstrated its inability in Katrina and if it wouldn't have been for the effort of Hams during this crisis I wouldn't want to think of the horrible effect that would have caused.
One size does not fit all. In addition I haven't seen any studies on the performance of FEMA certified verses the uncertifed to make a comparision.
I personally think that the required additional training may not reach its intended objective and I can't but wonder if Hams are being punished for doing their fraternal duty so well with Katrina that it added further embrassment to an already poorly managed impotent agency. There blunders with for example giving the displaced money cards have paid for vacations, penile implants and a host of things that make one shutter at a typical government style of waste and mismanagement.
I also agree with the chap who mentioned that there were way too many chiefs and too few indians. Politics and money are at the core of most government programs. Hams have been on the front line for way too many years and have done so quite successfully in times of disaster. So many Ham activities are geared towards staying on the top of their emergency response game that are aimed at being ready to help during emergencies.
I think the best course of action is for Hams to take the ARRL Emcomm courses first then tackle the FEMA courses as time permits and as inclination exists. Having said that the practical experience aspect is best acheived via what for us is the normal practice of refining our hobby and therefore our skills. We need to continue refining our skills.
Obviously we can't spit posionous gas out of our mouths at FEMA or Homeland Security irrespective of how many problems they create because it would be too politically incorrect and could result in creating problems for ourselves.
We can voice our views and support sensible solutions and play their little games but we don't have to agree with their so called solutions. If they think they can take a pig's ear and make a silk purse out of the EMCOMM situation and create a state of the art system supported by HAMS then what can we do?
Educating Hams with forced certs will not solve their problems. If HAM's are in the trenches and on the front lines I think we are the ones who should play a major role in solving any EMCOMM issues in conjunction with any agency who wants to emerge out of the blue and build their white horse and come to the rescue of folks unfortunate enough to have a full blown disaster on their hands.
With another Hurricane season upon us lets see how well 100, 700 and perhaps 1000 level course where we get to sit at the feet with FEMA Gods and Goddesses to get the real enlightened secrets of how to communicate during large scale emergencies work. Perhaps they will recraft the HAM licenses to include their teachings.
Enough said?. Bottom line? We must serve two masters or more to be emergency respondes. I think that eham should write a grant application to study the effects of getting online certs. The control group would be those having a HAM license but no ARRL emcomm. The other two groups would have ARRL emergency commmunications and the third group would be those having the minimum FEMA or maximum FEMA certs.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by WA4MJF on July 29, 2006
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The training mandate is NOT aimed at hams
only, but rather, all disaster responders.
The fireman, rescue squad folks, LEOs, hams,
shelter managers/workers, EM staff, agnecy
PIOs and ALL others who respond to any phase of
disaster work must have the courses.
Most of all y'all coulda knocked out
at least one in the time it takes to read this
thread. They're not hard and, for the most part,
make you aware of the system that y'all
be working in/for. If y'all have any
previous work experience with disaster
response in the last coupla years, y'all
be surprised how much of it y'all already know.
73 de Ronnie
OBS/OES NC Section Area 7
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by NA4IT on July 29, 2006
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I usually don't comment on my on posts, but there have been some good things, and some misunderstandings in this one.
KG4RUL: (1)I'm definitely not against training. I wish folks that want to require training would realize that you won't get anywhere near full participation by charging them for it. And yes, folks are being lost, good folks.
(2) ARRL membership is a requirement for many ARES functions.
W4LGH: I agree with you, always be ready if called. Do what you can where you are.
KC5TTL: (1)You may be right, the feds may not need us anymore. At least that's what most of them probably think. That is why amateur radio is loosing tower space and operating positions in federal facilities.
(2) I agree with the comments on getting paid vs' reimbursement. If you spend $100 in gas for the generator, someone in the served agency needs to cut a check.
AI2IA: Good comment. We do need the funded training though. And a little help with repeaters and sites doesn't hurt. (Great CW call, too!)
WW5AA: Wow! Great comment, and right on! I agree, a good screening process is needed, and everyone in EMA type positions SHOULD listen to local ham repeaters!
MY_OPINION: Good comment.
K8MHZ: Good points. Kinda like the old "Love a Nurse, PRN" (only when needed).
WF7A: (1)Correct comment.
(2) Agreed
N1GXC / WZ1P (?): Good comments. I think folks in EMA type positions need better education about amateur radio, even the technical aspects of it, such as why a Motorola CMD1550 is not a good chioce for amateur radio to be included in a comms truck, and a vertical antenna doesn't communicate well across the state.
K1CJS: (1)I couldn't blame you a bit. Here again, the "Love a Nurse, PRN" bit.
(2)Agreed
KC8VWM: Good facts. Never look a gift horse in the mouth.
RADIOGUYR2: I probably agree with the contol issue.
W3STG: Well, it's online for the taking.
W6TH: Good points.
W9WHE-II: (1)Hmmm...
(2) I think a lot of us need to get a grasp of that "radical concept". I don't serve an agency, I serve the public...
W6TH: Hmmm...
N2RRA: Good post!
KD7YVV: Good comments. I agree, never self deploy.
KR4WM: Agreed. Kinda like joining a Baptist church, if you have already been baptized, why require it again?
And then as usual, the post deteriorate for a while...
KB4YKJ: Agreed sir. And thanks for being a ham. One local fire chief and local police chief are hams, and good members of our locla club. They also enjoy the hobby!
Deterioration again...
RADIOGUYR2: Some good points...
KC8VWM: Good points. The landscape has changed, we need to understand concepts, not run the show.
QRZDXR: I agree. I'm a communicator, disabled, can no longer drive a tractor trailer, just a communicator.
N3PAQ: Issues with ARRL. #1, get back to the business of promoting amateur radio, preferably to government entities that don't understand it. #2, quit charging for everything, and quit begging. #3, answer emails. #4...
AB0WR: Good comment.
KI4MF: "Same applies to ARES I think." Good enough to quote. Why is ARES different?
WA5FLV: The ARRL represents an organization of amateur radio operators willing to pay dues, not the entire amateur radio population. Good point.
W6EM: Yep, big business has always been against volunteers that can do the job better.
WA4MJF: I even heard a FEMA Shares station on 40M last year, because he couldn't contact anyone at FEMA (wonder where he got that "frequency agile rig"...). Glad he came there to get help, and amateur radio welcomed him!
W4CNG: You said to require EMCOMM I. And do I assume you agree the volunteer should pay for it?
K8MHZ: Good point again. Here is "enlightenment"...did anyone know that the "requirements" for being an ARES member are thus...#1 have an amateur radio license, and #2, be willing to volunteer? (check it out on ARRL's website, it's there...)
N4XYC: John I'm glad you commented. John's EMA director is going to pay for EMCOMM training for his volunteers. Would be nice if others followed suit, provided they are going to require it.
K1CJS: Sounds like something I have heard before. But, hope may be on the way...congress has made amateur radio and "official" part of DHS... see articles elsewhere.
KC4MEC: Good comments.
KB3LYC: Very good post.
WA4MJF: EMCOMM training IS pointed at hams only...
Sounds like to me we all pretty much agree that training is a must, so that we understand the task we are to do. Reimbursement for dollars spent out of pocket is nice, but not the norm. To charge volunteers for training is also not the norm. And, amateur radio groups are loosing volunteers and members because of additional training requirements. As some have said, amateur radio has performed well in that past. What did amateur radio screw up that we need additional training?
Finally...I want to encourage everyone to look up the article about the Congressional Bill that adds Amateur Radio to DHS. And remember this, when you are needed, don't look at it as serving a served agency. Look at it as serving someone you know, neighbors, friends, and maybe even someone you don't know. I get a lot more satisfaction from knowing I did my part to make a difference. I don't need a pat on the back.
Scott NA4IT
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by WA4MJF on July 29, 2006
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Wrong read about the training, I said
the training "mandate", which is
for FEMA courses, not ARRL
ENCOMM courses (which are quite
helpful for newcomers, I'm sure).
DHS, FEMA and state and local
do NOT require ARRL courses.
Sorry I gave that impression.
If it was a FEMA station you heard
on 40 Meters, they stand out like a
sore thumb with call like KF4EMA (WGY-912)
in Berryville. NTIA has issued ham
calls to the FEMA locations. The
are KF#EMA, NF#EMA and WF#EMA, so
hams won't wonder about them. The
FCC even issued accidentally Berryville's
call to a ham and had to yank it. :-)
73 de Ronnie
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by WA4MJF on July 29, 2006
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OOps, he goofed! They're not supposed
to do that. If WGY-913 goes in to the
ham bands, for example, they're supposed
to use KF4EMA, so as not to confuse hams.
I forget what all the prefixes mean, but
the KF,NF and WF indicate different FEMA
functions.
He probably did not get in too much trouble,
I hope. I think FEMA is the only NTIA organization
that still uses ham type calls in the ham bands.
DOD, at least the Army has returned most of
their Army Headquarters calls. W6USA was
6th US Army at PSF (in an ole fire station on
a hill above the O CLub, with antennas above
the sewage field and actually not a crappy RF ground at all), but it was deactivated.
A lot of the ole War Department calls K#WDx
are gone to for posts that weren't Army Headquarters.
Fort Bragg was K4WDF, for example. Now they
just get on and say who they are.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W9WHE-II on August 1, 2006
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W4CNG:
"These days you gotta get the Training that the local EOC's Require plus at least ARRL ECC-001 to get into the EOC".
You have chosen arrl as your gatekeeper. Pity. Don't be surprised that people think arrl is so distasteful that they will not swallow arrl bilge to join you in your Emcomm bunker (the eoc). But then again, perhaps that is the intent. The established emcomm bunker-boys may not want others to join, as it might dilute their fifedom.
Don't get me wrong. training is a GOOD thing. But forcing people to swallow arrl bilge will cause many to say "no thanks".
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KC8VWM on August 1, 2006
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What did amateur radio screw up that we need additional training?
----------------
Again, these FEMA ICS training requirements are intended for ALL persons involved in the emergency response process.
It has nothing to do with what you have or have not done in the past.
This training is intended for EVERYONE regardless if you are participating as a Medical Doctor or if you are handing out ham sandwiches and coffee during a disaster or other similar event that requires activation of the Incident Command System.
This command structure is the appointed protocal ALL public service agencies are now required to follow.
The purpose of learning the ICS is so everyone involved is on the same page with respect to understanding the Incident Command structure and how each leg of it functions.
For example. Do you know who to report to if you are required and are participating in a disaster? ICS training lays all that foundation out for you in advance BEFORE the disaster occurs. However if you don't have the FEMA training then how will you know where you fit in exactly? Who and what do you report or not report and why?
The training is NOT intended to improve a ham operators on air operating skills. In fact, it really has little or nothing to do with that. The training is intened so we fit into "thier" way of doings things under the ICS umbrella.
The last thing hams should be doing is running around aimlessly appearing like they obviously don't understand the basic Incident Command Structure in front of public service professionals during a disaster.
Take the training.
73
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by KK5CA on August 2, 2006
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Universally accepted disaster response credentials, unlike nationally accepted driver's licenses, do not exist. A year or two (or three?) in the future, they may, but the feds do not yet have that system in place. Most likely when the credentially system is available, it is individual organizations which will provide the information about you to the national database. As an example, your Red Cross chapter will say "Yep, this is one of our folks." One of these organizations might be the ARRL. The professional organizations come first, and VOADs will come later.
Please take all the training you want. Do not do so with the belief that it will immediately translate into some sort of magic ID card that allows you to cross any roadblock any where in the country.
Jerry
KK5CA
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W9WHE-II on August 2, 2006
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"Universally accepted disaster response credentials, unlike nationally accepted driver's licenses, do not exist".
What are you saying?
That the Federal Government and the entire world does not recognize the almighty arrl's preeminent authority and unsurpassed expertise in all things? Surely you gest!
W9WHE
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EMCOMM Training Options
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by W1XZ on August 2, 2006
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Part of our purpose as amateur radio operators is (according to the FCC): Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
In the last 10 to 15 years the EMCOMM thing has become a giant snowball rolling down hill picking up flotsum and jetsum such as protocals, umpteen dozen rules and training exercises, day-glo vests, and HT laden belts. Folks. Here it is: A big storm blows through town, people need help, and the power and phones go out. Set up your station on a battery and let someone know that your neighbor is in the hospital.
Our part in emergencies started when there weren't many telephones and hardly any that worked when the breezes blew. In the early days we were esential to communications. If a member of our brotherhood put together a new station, it made the paper. That was then. This is now. A large majority of people have some kind of free long distance phone service, and while the phones might not function at the scene of an emergency they will 25 miles away. That is where we come in.
We aren't first responders carrying bandages and splints to the victums. If you do that it is great but not part of amateur radio. Standing on a parade route with three walkie talkies and a day-glo vest is (unfortunately) ham radio these days.
I do have some advice. Take the time you spend learning protocol, going to training exercises, and attending endless meetings and do the following: Read part 97. Upgrade. Find someone who has used ham radio for real life emergencies (not some guy who has attended 55 parades) and ask them their stories. Beef up your station with what ever it takes to help when and if the time comes (battery oand solar power...whatever). Work some DX and play in a contest. (All those VHF/UHF events with mountain toppers, HF contests, field day exercises, and DXing has a purpose other than it is actually fun. It helps you be able to communicate when the signals are weak and the noise and interference is high.)
We are communicators. While it may not be necessary to help out everytime, when we are need to be there and really able to help.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KK5CA on August 2, 2006
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"Universally accepted disaster response credentials, unlike nationally accepted driver's licenses, do not exist".
What are you saying?
That the Federal Government and the entire world does not recognize the almighty arrl's preeminent authority and unsurpassed expertise in all things? Surely you gest!
W9WHE
=============
No, that is not what I am saying.
Successfully pass a FEMA Independent Study course and they send you a certificate. Pass all seven courses of the FEMA Professional Development Series (PDS) and they send you a certificate. Doing either or both of these will not get anyone issued any sort of national disaster responder credentials, because such credentials do not exist. It does not matter how many FEMA training courses are completed, right now, no one gets anything more than some good training and information.
At some un-determined date in the future, under a DHS program still being developed, is is possible that the ARRL might be one of the credentialling authorities that will "certify" their own ARES volunteers, just as the Red Cross and other VOADs might "certify" their own volunteers. This is little different than a fire department "certifying" their fire fighters, and that "certification" being accepted in other areas. I think it is unlikely there will be some sort of disaster worker "passport" issued by a DHS, which is equivalent to passports from the U.S. State Department. Right now, there is not any such credentialling program for anyone, professional or volunteer.
My caution is to not confuse completing training with getting some sort of credentials or with a certification program.
Jerry
KK5CA
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W4LGH on August 2, 2006
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Said the last post I did was going to be my last post, as I am done with all this. Will do my thing from home on my own, but I can only say one thing to
W1XZ's post.... AMEN!!! So true, you head the nail on the head.
73 and I hope everyone has plenty of backup power and antennas!! de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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by KB4YKJ on August 2, 2006
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In the last 10 to 15 years the EMCOMM thing has become a giant snowball rolling down hill picking up flotsum and jetsum such as protocals, umpteen dozen rules and training exercises, day-glo vests, and HT laden belts. Folks. Here it is: A big storm blows through town, people need help, and the power and phones go out. Set up your station on a battery and let someone know that your neighbor is in the hospital.
_______________________________________________________
That is the best statement I have found that agrees with totally my feelings. I can do my own thing to benefit my neighbors and did during our 9 day power outage thanks to an ice storm right before Christmas. I was the volunteer, it was my neighbors who received the benefit and ARRL and or my local club did not stand first in line to take credit. Last comment on this subject. Next topic.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KD5KKZ on August 3, 2006
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Some people say ham radio operators are already good communicators. Why? What makes them good communicators? There are several different ways to communicate. Somebody who gives a speech well is communicating, but that doesn't mean they can use a signal light to pass information. What makes a good communicator? That is a broad question.
So people want to help in a disaster. How? What is important and what isn't? If you are handed four different pieces of traffic to pass at one time, how do you prioritize those four pieces of traffic? There is nothing in the FCC test which address this question.
Some people say that if two words sound almost the same, they must mean roughly the same thing. Is there a difference between carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide? They sound similiar. Is there a difference between hyper and hypo? They sound almost the same. Are the meanings similiar?
If you go to a disaster to help with communications, who do you report to? If you say the person in charge, you are totally wrong. You will have commit two wrongs: 1: You are going to the wrong person. 2: You are distracting that person from their own responsibility, causing problems for them, and putting other people's life and well being in jeopordy. How does that help?
What is the hot zone at an incident? Do you want to go there? If you go to the hot zone in a chemical or biological release, you will end up in the hospital, or dead. How does that help?
FEMA is requiring that people, even volunteers, who respond to a disaster have IS-700 or the community could lose Federal funding. Do you want to go to an emergency, try to help out, then be the cause of your community not receiving thousands or millions of dollars because you didn't have the proper training? How does that help?
The saying goes "We have two ears and one mouth. Listen twice as much as you talk." How many people have listened to their first responders on a scanner? During an emergency, how do they talk. Do they say "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know this frequency was being used for emergency traffic." when they key up during an emergency? NO!!! They don't say another word! As amateurs, we are required to ID, but that is not all. We don't have to say those 14 additional words in the quote above.
Do you want to help? Then help. Learn what you need to know to help. Otherwise, you may end up embarrassing the amateur radio community. How does that help?
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by W1XZ on August 3, 2006
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It sounds to me like you are assuming that in time of disaster we are going to run in and take over for the communications of the police or fire departments because their systems are down. We should all talk the talk and be back up dispatchers. If that is what you think we need to plan for...more power to you, but IMHO you are wasting you time. That is why we have become less and less relevant in today's world. When are we going to take over communications for first responders? In blue moons.
The Mexico City earthquake was a great example. There were formal nets set up to handle health and welfare traffic back to the states. It took so long to get through the net control dotting his i's and checking the checks nothing of merit moved. Several nets sprung up and handled many times the information and without so much as one training exercise.
I am not saying basic training is not necessary, but in times of a big crisis all the system understanding and protocol does nothing if you can't get to where you need to be. We can be much more effective finding neighbors who need help and being available by have our stations up and ready to get a message through.
The first training amateur ops need to attend is common sense 100.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by KE4SKY on August 4, 2006
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Last I heard Coast Guard TISCOM was still using the amateur station call K4CG when in contact with the NCS on the maritime mobile service net on 20 meters.
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by WA4MJF on August 4, 2006
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K4CG is the HQ station up in the
DC Area and y'all do hear them once in a while
on the CG Net at 1300Q on 14.3.
Usually, when there is an active operation
going on all y'all will hear Coast Guard
Miami, Portmouth or what ever, Coast Guard
Cutter (name), or Coast Guard 2171 (or what
ever helo it is).
I'm not sure K4CG is part of of an operational
unit, but rather HQ itsownself. K4CG is a FCC
licensed Military Recreation Station, not a
NTIA station, BTW.
73 de Ronnie
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by KI4OYV on August 5, 2006
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KUDOS, HANK!!!!!!
I am a "new HAM", but do remember back to the early '60's when a friend had his licence. All of us would sit around and listen to his operating both CW and voice. He tried to "teachus" and get us involved, but being young, we just couldn't see it happeneng.
If the "old timers" want to kill HAM, they will follow their (at the risk of being politically incorrect) "10 commandments" as listed and wipe out all everyone has worked for.
Not afraid to post call sign
Art W.
KI4OYV
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by W4LGH on August 5, 2006
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In the last 10 to 15 years the EMCOMM thing has become a giant snowball rolling down hill picking up flotsum and jetsum such as protocals, umpteen dozen rules and training exercises, day-glo vests, and HT laden belts. Folks. Here it is: A big storm blows through town, people need help, and the power and phones go out. Set up your station on a battery and let someone know that your neighbor is in the hospital.
_______________________________________________________
That is the best statement I have found that agrees with totally my feelings. I can do my own thing to benefit my neighbors and did during our 9 day power outage thanks to an ice storm right before Christmas. I was the volunteer, it was my neighbors who received the benefit and ARRL and or my local club did not stand first in line to take credit. Last comment on this subject. Next topic.
=============================
I have to second both of those statements! We are at our BEST on our own equip. serving our local area. This doesn't mean we can't relay traffic to/from the disaster area, but again best done from home. Make sure you have plenty of backup power, and some kind of emergency antenna that can be put up in minutes. This is your best training, and where you can do the most good. If you really sit back and think about it, go back over your "formal" experiences, and remember how you were treated, you'll have to agree, as I know its no different anywhere else, a fiefdom is a fiefdom, who needs it? If you really want to help you can do everything you need to from home, while protecting your property as well!
I can run off batteries for @ least a full day, and I have a whole house generator that will run for 10days if need be. I don't need to feel important rushing off to the EOC only to be frowned upon. I can do the most good from home. No HT laden belt, Red Hats, or dayglo vests. Leave that to the idiots in charge who want to put all their eggs in ONE basket, and buy 800Mhz trunked systems, so when the control signal goes down all the radios go stupid. They just won't learn, never will and ARES will NEVER change their minds. I have gotten out of ARES, the local clubs, and any other orginations (except the ARRL, which I had to renew as I was still the ARES EC at the time) but when thats up, its UP too! The ARRL is NOT in our best interest anymore, they want to dumb down the tests so more people will join and keep them in business. Some say we need a voice, and we do, but not a BAD voice!
Give up the vests, HT belts, red hats & yellow flashing lights on your car, stay home and do what amateurs do best! Its the most & BEST help you can give.
73 de W4LGH - Alan EX-ARES EC
http://www.w4lgh.com
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by KD5KKZ on August 8, 2006
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For those who don't think they need to be able to pass traffic for police, fire, or EMS, I have a question? What is emergency traffic? According to Part 97, it is the protection of life and property. Passing health and welfare traffic is not emergency traffic. Trying to assist the fire department in responding to a grass or wildland fire which is threatening homes is emergency traffic. Trying to get EMS to a person who is not breathing because they were underwater is emergency traffic. If you want to handle emergency traffic, and say you are and can pass emergency traffic, then know how things are set up.
Passing health and welfare traffic can be very good and helpful, don't get me wrong. It can raise the moral of the public which can touch people in ways first responders can't. But that isn't emergency traffic. Getting a 20 KW generator into a city to run the water treatment plant is a disaster. Know where you fit into the scheme of things and help.
Here in Tulsa, there is an amateur dual band radio in each hospital, two of them in the EOC, and one at the Red Cross. They are there to provide communications in case the phone system goes down again in the area. (It has gone down three times in the area in the last five years or so.)
I recently heard that Oklahoma Highway Patrolmen in the Oklahoma City area are being allowed to take a class, on paid time, to get their amateur radio license. OHP is also picking up the cost of the testing. If amateur radio wants to retain it's right to use frequencies, it should be able to justify that by knowing what and how work into the system. We should be able to help. As the saying goes, "Either lead, follow, or get out of the way".
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by W1XZ on August 9, 2006
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What has getting a generator to a water treatment plant got to do with communications? Having a Dualband radio in a hospital is great, but who is going to run it? Are you going to run over to the hospital and supply communications while the storm is raging or would you have stationed your self there while your family is home? What good is it if no one in the hospital has the 6 levels of training necessary to operate it. If the phone system is down, cell phones don't work, the hospital communications is kaput, and their talk around system is inoperative there probably isn't a lot left to communicate.
If we want to do public service, great. Getting a generator working at a water treatment is wonderful, but it isn't communications. It is a good public service deed. Great for the moral and public support as you say.
If all the police are training to be hams what does amateur radio offer them that they don't have already? They have repeaters and the have simplex and god knows they have the training, rules, and regulations. Who will they communicate with on ham radio? Some guy in a yellow vest in a communications bunker?
Talk about getting out of the way....
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RE: EMCOMM Training Options
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by WD4JZO on September 10, 2006
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ARRL membership IS A REQUIREMENT if you are in an ARES leadership role such as SM,SEC,DEC,EC,AEC etc,etc.(regular)members DO NOT have to belong to ARRL.
73, Jim
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