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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again

Do not contact (N4ZOU) on August 8, 2006
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Lets make repeaters popular again.

Have you noticed most amateur radio repeater usage had dropped to almost nothing these past years? Most people will tell you it was due to cell phones. I will admit that these modern communication devices are convent, easy to use, and no special license is required but it makes no sense that Hams would abandon use of the repeaters in their area after obtaining a cell phone. Comparing use of amateur radio repeaters and cell phones is like comparing apples and oranges. They both taste great and everyone likes them but they have nothing in common except being fruit. The major problem with most repeaters is the requirement of an access tone transmitted with your signal in order to activate it. When 2-meters started getting overpopulated with repeaters tone access was a quick bandage to reduce problems, it was not a solution. Repeater clubs and owners started using tone access as well for their repeaters thinking it was a "fashionable" thing to do. All new amateur transceivers came with tone access features so most Hams thought it was just standard operating practice to add tone access even if they rarely or ever had problems with a neighboring repeater operating on the same frequency pair. This is what effectively started the slide into disuse of most amateur radio repeaters. Why?

  • Tone access limits the ability of the repeater to receive remote "fringe" stations.

  • Equipment without tone access capability making the equipment obsolete.

  • Eliminates the use of the repeater by emergency groups.

  • Traveling hams don't know the access tone and don't use it.

  • Promotes coordination of too many and too close repeaters on the same frequency pairs.

  • Having to listen to everyone on the repeater, day and night.

I am sure there are other problems but these are the only ones I could think of when writing this. Add your own problems in the comments section!

The first thing that needs to be taken care of is the overpopulation of repeaters. A coordination group needs to be formed to geographically determine which repeaters are required and which are duplicitous and not required for the area they cover. This will remove the requirement to use tone access on the repeater to hide coordination problems. I know eliminating repeaters is going to cause personally problems for clubs and groups. Every repeater club or group wants there own repeater but there is a geographic limit, which was not only reached but also exceeded years ago.

Considering how little use most of them have now clubs and groups could easily share a repeater. These groups need not listen to each other by using tone control differently than it's being done now. This is very simply done and the repeater needs neither special equipment nor even tone control in it's own circuits. Each group picks or is assigned an unused tone and programs that tone into their transceiver for both transmit and receive. This way you need not listen to the repeater when being used by a different group.

The way this works is group "A" programs their groups tone for transmit and receive. Their transceiver only responds to signals on the repeater carrying that tone. Unless someone in your group is using the repeater your transceiver will stay quiet. Group "B" can use the repeater without disturbing members of group "A" or any other group using a different tone. Of course if you don't program any tone in your transceiver then you will hear all activity on the repeater. This allows emergency groups to use the repeater as well. No one wants to be awakened by rag chewers around midnight to the wee hours of the morning! Your emergency group is assigned an unused tone so the only time your transceiver makes a noise is when the repeater is being used for the emergency call up and use. Typically, you would program two memory channels for that repeater. One with tone control of both transmit and receive and one without tone control. This allows easy access to the repeater when you want to hear everything going on and transmit to anyone without tone squelch programmed in his or her transceiver. Of course, none of this is possible if your repeater requires an access tone!

Groups could consist of just family members or hundreds of emergency responders. Linking to other repeaters also becomes easy for your repeater users. Just have the link repeater programmed to only respond to an assigned tone and program it with the same tone in its transmitted signal. Now instead of the link repeater responding to everything after it's been activated it only responds to a single tone.

Limiting a single repeater to a geographic area forces clubs and groups to share a single repeater, which can spread it's cost among the groups using it and thus lowering its cost per user. Several low budget repeaters operating in the same geographic area can be eliminated and a single super repeater with all the options takes their place making for a better system. It also promotes use by groups that would not normally use a repeater. A DX or contest group could use the repeater to alert other group members of a rare stations call and frequency without disturbing other repeater users.

Member Comments:
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Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KO1D on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Why? Get people OFF of the repeaters and explore the width and breadth of their licenses. Get people OFF of HTs and believing the repeater is the end all/be all of ham radio.

Everyone has a niche and I can respect those whose niche is repeater operation, I know I use them during commutes. There is so much more, however, one can do and right now we are so saturated with unused machines, I just have to go back and again ask Why do we need more repeater activity instead of encouraging growth off the machines.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WN3VAW on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
CTCSS ("Tone Squelch") caused the demise of repeater useage? That's a new one.

No, sorry, while this may be true in some areas, I have difficulty in believing it's true in all. Especially in some regions where the local Repeater Council & Repeater Coordinator deities have decreed that all coordinated repeaters in their benevolent dictatorship, er, jurisdiction, must use CTCSS, and all repeaters in a given geographic region must use the same "standard" CTCSS tones.

Also, some repeaters run CTCSS for other reasons. I know of one that gets some intermod and front end overload from a nearby KW VHF paging system (it's a long story and not relevant here, nor mine to tell). Running tones on the repeater stopped the problem.

And useage varies. Many repeaters are heavily used during morning and evening commutes, and lightly used the rest of the time. Who determines whether or not these repeaters get to survive the purge?

Now if a given repeater is lightly or hardly used and the owners want to give it up, that's one thing. But to mandate it? In favor of what, a forced use of a single machine or two in a given area? Who maintains it? Who controls it? Who restricts access to it? When the inevitable clash of egos arise, what stops one egomaniac from blocking a particular group or club's members from accessing the machine... and then what recourse do they have?

For that matter, what if there are two groups with a history of bad blood between them (sad, but true, I could name a few groups in this situation) in the same geographic area? Who gets to tell them they HAVE to share a repeater? And what if one or both say no?

This sounds like certain commercial repeater useage. But we're not running commericial equipment in the business band, and we're not running under power or frequency restrictions like business band users are.

Forcing all amateurs in a locality to use a small number of repeaters may make those machines more efficient in terms of use... but doesn't solve the underlying problem of what happened to all of the users that were there in bygone days.

Sorry, this sounds like a solution in search of a problem... and one that found the wrong problem.

73, ron w3wn
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AI2IA on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
In the Greater New York Metropolitan Area - New York and New Jersey, repeater use is fairly active on 2 meters. Commuter use and use by by clubs keeps things going.
If I could offer a suggestion, I would encourage hams to use 6 meters more than they do now. On six meters there is good opportunity to use SSB and simplex is more interesting on six meters.
In any case, you can always talk to people on repeaters and invite them to use HF, even offering to contact them at a predetermined time and frequency. Putting ideas out on the repeaters themselves is probably the best way to get users to try something new. If you know that you've got someone willing to QSO on some non-repeater frequency, you would be more willing to give it a try.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N3PAQ on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
There are a couple of popular repeaters in my home town. They have great coverage and also have PL tones. PL tones are a little annoying, but they are a lot better than listening to intermod. There are some repeaters with PL tones out there that don't have the PL in their voice ID, that would be a good idea.

"Tone access limits the ability of the repeater to receive remote "fringe" stations."
I work the fringe of a PL'd repeater all the time.

"Equipment without tone access capability making the equipment obsolete."
I liked my Icom IC-2AT - but I doubt anyone is seriously depending on these rigs anymore. A lot of older commerical gear could have tones programmed.

"Eliminates the use of the repeater by emergency groups."
I can't figure out how a PL tone does this. You mentioned having to listen to everyone else talk, but I'd rateher listen to people chat than a bunch of intermod.

"Traveling hams don't know the access tone and don't use it."
I have this issue, because I refuse to pay money for that ARRL travel software. I normally look up the repeaters at my destination before I leave. While in route, I keep it on 146.52.

"Promotes coordination of too many and too close repeaters on the same frequency pairs."
A lot of folks will tell you that there aren't enough repeater pairs, some areas have added more by using 1MHz offset repeaters eating up simplex frequencies.

"Having to listen to everyone on the repeater, day and night."
If someone needed help, they would probably want to be heard.

Your article contradicts itself a lot.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AC6IJ on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Scott I think you hit it right on the head with your first statement that cell phones really are the problem. No other answer is needed, sorry. Bill
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W1XZ on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Repeater tones are not only necessary in densly populated areas such as the Northeast, but with todays's technology not all that difficult to work with.
That's not the problem. Have you listened to a repeater lately? 25 amateurs start a repeater group, put up a machine, and use it regularly. Soon a strange thing happens. The repeater troll shows up. A repeater troll is that ham who has more time than anyone else and seems to be on 24/7. If they are employed they have a job where they can talk all day on their HT. Eventually everyone gives up on the repeater and drifts off except the troll and their new found friends who have just suddenly appeared from the ether. They talk to eachother at legnth all day long about the same things they talked about yesterday and the day before and the day before that. They talk to anyone who is unsuspecting enough to sign on (that usually lasts a few minutes at most.)
A local troll and his minuion talked about racket ball a real lot even though neither of them had ever played the sport. A VE3 came on one day and the #1 troll explained that racket ball was a game we played here in the United States. I bet that VE3 was glad he got that information.
If it isn't trolls it is the "Hi Hi, I'm destinated" bunch. On a 30 minute ride I listened to a Southern New hampshire large footprint repeater one monday morning. The conversation was about this fellow's boat motor and how it needwed a valve job...fine enough...better than giving a weather report to someone 5 miles away. The boat owner said that he needed to take the head off the engine and grind the valves. Then he said "hi hi." In the half hour I listened to this one sided conversation he said he "I have to take the head off and grind the valves, hi hi" over 30 times. I would have flipped the dial long before I did, but I was curious to see where the conversation was going.
The list gtoes on to include traffic nets that don't have any real traffic (how much practice and training does this need?), the afore mentioned weather nets that are populated by people 10 miles apart, husband and wife tandems that discuss the grocery list for the stop home from work, Q signalers, and signal report givers..."You have a great signal here, but are a little noisy."
As NO1D suggests get off the repeaters...explore the spectrum and the other modes. If you can't do HF, VHF and UHF weak signal work is great fun and has amazing range.
If you live in a valley and have to use repeaters, learn to speak without using ham (or CB) radioisms. I do know an old fellow who says Hi Hi when talking face to face, but too many of us just managed to get goofy when a mic gets in our hands. Speak the language of the land. It has served us well all these years. Hi Hi.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KU4UV on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It may have something to do with most repeater conversations boring the crap out of most hams! If I were still a new ham, I would be bored to death talking to someone over the repeater. I couldn't wait to upgrade my license when I became a ham so that I could work some DX instead of chatting with Joe Blow five miles up the road about his grandaughter's wedding. Also, most traveling hams that are going to use a repeater will either look up the repeater tones on the Internet, or they will have the ARRL repeater directory, so I don't buy the argument that tones are the problem.

73,
KU4UV
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA6BFH on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I believe that any diminution of Ham radio activity that you are seeing is not because of CTCSS, but that most Ham’s that were licensed in the last 10 to 15 years simply “don’t speak Ham radio”.

Many were encouraged to obtain their license by boating or motorhome groups, or perhaps they read an article in the Reader’s Digest such as the one that was pointed out to me in the late 1980’s. Such sources told of the new no-code license that was about to appear on the horizon and that this would be the easiest license to obtain in the history of Amateur Radio.

I don’t fault whatever means or motivation anyone found or came across to stir their initial interest in Ham radio, but it is a technical hobby, and requires a technical proficiency. If the desire to obtain such proficiency is not present before one obtains their license, the nuances or all of the different facets that might be available to the licensed Ham are simply beyond their comprehension or their desire to assert themselves in building and using a real Amateur radio station.

Repeaters are Ok, I in fact own a few, but I’m with the guy who says to try all that you can do and is available to you in Amateur radio. Afterall, we do have 26 different wavelength bands available to us, and a lot more modes of transmission than just FM!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by 2ARADIO on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Whether this is one of the causes of the decline in use of repeaters is anybody's guess, but I've noticed, at least in the Washington DC metropolitan area that the quality of repeaters has drastically declined since the heyday of repeater use. There are repeaters on virtually every frequency pair, but many of them barely cover beyond the town they are located in. Others have multiple sites in mediocre locations, and extremely poor voting logic, so listening to them is just painful! Back in the "good ole days", folks with excellent technical skills put high-powered commercial repeater equipment up in world class locations, and even single site repeaters worked great!
Perhaps the loss of free tower and roof space, combined with the loss of some of the older skilled Motorola technicians have led to a surplus of repeaters that aren't much better than simplex communication.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by NA4IT on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
(1) CTCSS is not the problem. A lot of old timers will tell you it is, but for instance in our local area, every repeater uses the same tone. We have area 5-2M, 2-1.25M and 3-70CM machines all toned alike. A Com-Spec tone encoder costs $28.95, and for folks that have the older non-tone rigs, they are supposed to be more adept at electronics than the newcomers are, so putting in a tone board shouldn't be a problem.

(2) I believe the problem is interest. Amateur radio used to be hobby and service oriented. Since 911 and the hurricanes, there has been a huge push by our government agencies to ostracize amateur radio. Maybe not intentionally, but because of ignorance. People used to get into amateur radio because it meant you were one of the good guys. Look around on the internet, on eHam, QRZ, Hamsexy and other posts. If you were a newcomer, would you really want to be a part of people who gripe and complain constantly? Not only are the "served agencies" killing us, we are shooting ourselves in the foot!

(3) Take the average newcomer who does want to be involved in a club and serve his community. First thing, gotta join ARES. Gotta take EMCOMM I, II, & III. Then the served agency says they don't recognize EMCOMM and tell him he has to have ISC 100 & ICS 700. Then he finds out his brand new 2M only HT won't cut it, he needs to be able to do WinLink to be "effective". See where this is going?

(4) Amateur radio needs to be promoted. Not only to John Q. Public, but to the government agencies that have their head stuck in the sand and think all is OK. Also, ARRL and ARES need to back off a little and let the served agencies tell us what kind of training they want. They have pretty much indicated IS-100 & IS-700 are the beginning. Nothing sounds worse than spending your time taking 3 ARRL EMCOMM courses that are "required" and some government official says "What's EMCOMM?"
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W6WBJ on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Scott, the word "duplicitous" means "deliberately deceptive". The word you wanted to use was "duplicative".

I would never get on a repeater, considering the way the Commission has interpreted Sec. 97.205(e) so as to allow the repeater owner to order anyone he doesn't like off the machine permanently, for no reason whatsoever. I would never let some dweeb repeater owner tell me whether I can use a frequency or not. If the repeater owners want to spend a bunch of money building a sandbox that everybody refuses to play in because its management is too oppressive, then let that be their problem, not mine. I will stay on HF, where I can use any frequency I want.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
VOIP is used as an excuse for "helping" repeaters come back into use, when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. When these guys should be using radios, they're keyboarding in private "chat rooms". Put a microphone back in their hand and you'll gain a few percentage points.

95% of radios today have PL tone capability. There are a few "dinosaurs" left on the air. The way to fix this problem is to have one good repeater in an area without PL tone access. On all other repeaters, have it announce the PL tone with the repeater ID so everyone will know what it is. That fixes that problem for the most part.

And I also tend to agree with the fellow who intimated "why fix a problem like this- you should be promoting license upgrades and exploration of other privileges". Ham radio *IS* about radio experimentation, it's *NOT* about getting in a rut and staying there.

People ask me why I care if anyone upgrades- they say it's none of my business. Well, I care about the future of amateur radio, that's why I make it my business! Use our frequencies or lose them! If you don't upgrade, you don't have access to all the possible frequencies. If you don't have access to them, they're not getting used! UPGRADE, UPGRADE, UPGRADE!

Use repeaters for local comms, and use HF, *NOT VOIP*, for DX!

-KR4WM
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA7NCL on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
*Having to listen to everyone on the repeater, day and night

This was and is the big problem for me. I don't listen at home or in the car because I don't want to hear everything. Neither do any of my buddies. So we use the phone because of "selective calling". If repeaters would allow selective calling by call sign, we would make them more useful. There could be a "CQ" calling mode and there could be an "emergency" calling mode that would open all the squelches.

I'm not sure how this should be implemented technically (DTMF, CTSS etc etc) but this should be the goal.

If selective calling were available, many of us would leave the 2M rig on all the time and use it to keep in touch with our ham radio friends.

Sometimes we would even make random QSOs as well, but as it is now, I don't even bother to turn it on and don't bother to take it with me.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K6AER on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well, where do we begin here? I get the impression Scott has not been out of his area of operation very much. Let go through some of the points listed.

I have repeaters in Oregon, California and Colorado. Seven machines total with coverage out to 200 miles on high level machines in Colorado. My first repeater was put up in 1974 in California and although it is currently a forth generation machine it has been in operation 24/7 for 30 plus years. I have watched the evolution of their usage for the last 32 years.

PL does not prevent access to the repeaters. Ham equipment has been manufactured with PL encoders for the last 25 years. If you are using a radio with no PL then add one or buy a new radio. As for distance from a repeater using PL the PL decoder will decode CTCSS tones long before you voice can be understood. PL decoders will decode tones with as little as 10% quieting.

Tone access is necessary to prevent multiple repeaters from being brought up by a mobile in a common overlapping area. Also PL prevents ker-chunking from intermod on the repeater input. No repeater should be on the air with out decode CTCSS. In most areas of the country CTCSS is mandatory as it should be.

Cell phones have removed the husband/wife users we heard in the 80’s and 90’s. Big deal. Some one requesting a loaf of bread be picked up is hardly worth listening to. In area where highly developed 911 centers are located, cell phones are much better equipped to handle emergencies with built in GPS and phone number tracking via cell locations. I realize hams ego’s are at stake but lets face it. We are dealing with 60’s technology with a handheld. Repeaters will never be the equivalent to a cell phone unless we are willing to invest $300K in repeater technology and $2000 handhelds.

Regarding the number of repeaters who determines what is an obsolete or redundant machine. Do we not have more than one radio that covers the same band? If one repeater goes down why not have extra machines. Let keep elitism out of the ham bands. A typical commercial repeater will cost over $15,000 to put on the air not to mention site rental, which for some, high level locations can cost over $300 per month. Should this repeater have any more rights to the spectrum than a homemade machine? This has always been a first come first serve to spectrum usage. The system works well.

As for repeater subgroups using different PL tones it is much more complicated than necessary. This is not a commercial repeater application. Multiple PL commercial repeaters have long left the scene and have been replaced by trunking systems. The problem with jamming was always a problem with the strongest carrier having access to the repeater. Also with multiple CTCSS tones the possibility of bringing up other repeaters is a problem.

Bottom line is repeaters have evolved to where thay are for a reason. Until you coordinate, access a site, build, install, maintain and ride heard on the users trying to maintain a decorum of sanity as well as generate funds, I get the feeling you are naive in what it takes to put up a class A repeater system.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA6BFH on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KR4WM, Technician (even no-code Ham's) have access to the bulk of Ham radio!

26 bands total, minus the 9 bands from 160 Meters through 10 Meters leaves 17 bands that Technicians can use.

I'm not disagreeing with your point to learn and explore -- and even upgrade. I just don't want see newer Ham's become discouraged, when they could be using the different bands that really do need our activity -- if we intend to keep them!

73! de John
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA4DOU on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not interested in FM or repeaters. Its too much like my work everyday. I lost interest in repeaters and FM about '78 or'79. To me, amateur radio is about cw, dx, contesting, propagation, antennas, qrp, homebrew, etc. 160-6 meters is where its at.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WA4DOU, I have to agree with you!!! -KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AB2MH on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Repeaters are dead because everyone wants to talk to their clique, perhaps their old CB buddies or maybe their friends and not answer general calls on the machine and make new friends.

Also, autopatch isn't so useful anymore now that cell phones are cheap and plentiful.

I call out on many repeaters and only a few answer. And sometimes 2-3 minutes after I call, people come up and call their clique members and start up a QSO.

That's why I enjoy HF mobile MUCH more now. Always someone to talk to, even if it is just a short contact, and HF hams actually send QSL cards.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WA6BFH, I must respectfully disagree. I count (on the Icom band availability chart) a total of 6 bands for technician-class hams. No, you can't count the bands above 1270 because there is no commercial ready-to-use equipment for those bands. The great majority of Technician-class licensees are just getting their feet wet, and can't be expected to know how to assemble a 2.4GHz station, much less anything above that. 6M through 1270 is it- leaving 10 bands they have no access to. If they can't walk into HRO and walk out the door with it, plug it in, and use it, you can't count it. And activity on 220MHz, 900MHz, and 1270 are almost nil, so you may as well admit that 99.9% of all Technician class hams are going to be found on 6M, 2M, and 440. Hmmm... 3 bands as compared to 13 bands (10 HF plus 2 VHF and 1 UHF). I must concede that in large cities (I'm not in one) there may be some repeaters on 220, 900, and 1296. Under my definition, if a Tech-class ham puts on of those on the air, they've met the definition of experimentation. I'd still like to see them active on HF bands.... or on VHF/UHF SSB. -KR4WM
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W8ZNX on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
why bother
in places it's so insular that
they do not want any new ops on THEIR MACHINE

first started playing with 2 fm
in early 1968 with a old motorola lash up
two channels 34 / 94

had lots of fun
but it changed after mid 70's

was a road driver
away from home all the time
put a nice wiz bang Kenwood
2 meter fm lash up in the truck

when i just drove michigan and Ontario
it was fun

changed jobs ran more states
then started beeing treated like a cheap bum

was member of the Great Lakes repeater club
that had three machines across the state on 2 meters
and
another club in Detroit that had one machine on 2

so i was paying my fair share
to keep more than one machine on the air

too be told to stay off machines
in other states
that us truck drivers
were just using machines
and were not paying our fair share

there was a so called open machine
in SE Ohio would turn off the machine
when mobile ops from out of state
tryed to use the machine
did not matter that it was 2 am wensday night
and nobody else was using the machine

you would hear the tones
and the machine would be turned off

what the hell
was having a nice qso

the 2 meter gear sits on a shelf
in the basement
where it has sat for 15 years

let it die
same way it killed off

2 meter AM, 6 meter AM,
and
160 meter AM community here in Detroit

also set back 6 and 2 meter ssb 20 years

i may get back on two meters
but it will be on cw/ssb

Mac





 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB9CRY on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The DX club I belong to has operated a repeater for many years. It also uses a PL tone that is published, so no secret there.

Back before cell phone, the packet cluster, & email, the repeater was the only way we all could link up, tell about DX, help spot each other, etc.

Now all that has been replaced by cell phones (private conversation), packet clusters (either by radio or internet = many more "spotters" than just the club members), DX (Daily DX, etc give us all the info we need).

So these days our repeater is very much underused by anybody but we also run a Packet Talker which repeats filtered DX cluster spots out on the repeater. Most folks like the Talker since it gives one access to spotted DX info while sitting out on the veranda with an HT or scanner.

Repeater usage, like they were used in the olden days, will never happen again. Like any outmoded technology, there will be niche uses but nothing more.

I agree, Amateur Radio is a lot more than repeaters.

Phil KB9CRY
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N4NQY on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Most of Scott's comments ring true. Most smaller metro areas have too many repeater, most of which have technical problems, well known to the regular users. Sharing could result in better maintained repeaters.

Repeaters are not the domain solely of HT toting, no-code, instant ticket hams. There are a bunch of Extra class, contesters with HF&VHF radio hams on 2m and 440 who operate solely CW or PSK when at home in the shack.

But to increase usage,

1) link repeaters with other repeaters 40-50 miles away, making the NETWORK of repeaters accessable to more people, with more people to talk to. Both communities win with more users.
2) Install IRLP (or echolink) and advertise it. Hams move away and would like to stay in touch
3) Encourage Nets, Emergency, Swap and special interest
4) Standardize the tones in a geographic area. IF all the repeaters in town use the same tone, announce the tone, then travelers can deal with it. Nothing is worse that traveling and being able to hear a repeater but have no idea what tone is being used. Some radios can ID the tone but when you are driving, its not worth the effort.
5) THE MOST IMPORTANT, maintenance. Make the repeater sound like a million dollars. Hams will gravitate to the machine that sounds the best.

If you do all of the above, the local emergency response groups will want your help because your communications capabilites will outdo theirs every time. Coverage and Quality....
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB9BIT on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
After a number of years of inactivity on my local repeaters, I started to use one of the better repeaters in my area about a year ago in order to talk to a ham buddy of mine who lives about 15 miles west of me and to a newer ham who has been a friend for about 25 years, who I could not work simplex.

About two months after we got active again, the repeater was sold to the local RACES group. This repeater (like all the others in the area) mostly sat silent for hours on end, only to be heard IDing with almost no traffic at all, except for me and my buddies and a few other regulars.

One night while takling with my friend, the local RACES Barney Fife-wannabe bozo VIP jumped in and asked us not to tie up their repeater because we might be keeping emergency traffic from using it and since we weren't RACES members we should not use their repeater.

Once again, this good repeater sits ilde hours on end, just IDing round the clock. Pretty good use of a good repeater, huh?

As ticked off as I was I decided it wasn't worth the aggrivation since it was their repeater and they could do as they pleased, so we found another (not as high-profile) repeater where the owners, hearing about the aforementioned incident, asked us to use their repeater.

Maybe that's why no one wants to use the repeaters anymore; having to put up with the elite snobs who run them.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KI4BDS on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The 147.300 in Bluemont Va is used all the time and usually policed quite well. It covers N Va., DC, Md., and part of W Va. There are several others here in the area in frequent use also. Dont like LIDs using hi hi and do you know the most used word in English language is I! Karl
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N5LXI on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with the comments of the author. This should NOT a Repeater/VHF/UHF vs. HF argument. They are both wonderful, but have different purposes.

VHF/UHF FM obviously lends itself for local communications. This is important for local emergencies or just to talk to friends.

PL is necessary in many areas, but is a pain -- especially when traveling. I wish radio makers would make it a little easier. A constant PL frequency display and even a dedicated knob would be great for traveling. The Kenwood TS-2000 is the only rig I know of that can operate is this mode.

Many of the repeaters are seldom used. I found that I have ALWAYS been welcome on these "private" repeaters. I guess we all need to get on the air more!

If you live in the Dallas / Fort Worth Metroplex I maintain repeater lists at http://www.n5lxi.com. It's always in progress, but is very complete. There is even some traffic on the TI 1.25 meter machine.

joel / N5LXI
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AA4PB on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well, your group tone idea won't work. Repeaters won't retransmit the sub-audiable (PL) tones. Those repeaters that transmit PL tones generate those transmit tones at the repeater.

I think there are a couple of reasons for the decreased use of repeaters. One is that the "new" has worn off. In the 70's everyone was excited about the new abilities the repeaters offered. Now they are tired of listening to the same people talk about the same stuff on their commute home every day.

The next problem is indeed cell phones. Early on, hams were a special group to be able to call home via the autopatch from their car. A lot of hams got into 2M FM for just that purpose. Today they all have cell phones which are much easier to use so the "call home group" has dropped by the wayside.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA1RNE on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Have you noticed most amateur radio repeater usage had dropped to almost nothing these past years? Most people will tell you it was due to cell phones. I will admit that these modern communication devices are convent, easy to use, and no special license is required ....

".......but it makes no sense that Hams would abandon use of the repeaters in their area after obtaining a cell phone."



Sure it does, except for emergency communications. Repeaters were originally developed to enhance public service communications like fire, police and rescue operations and mobile telephone service.


Interesting how in approx 45-50 years, the mobile phone industry started out using VHF low band repeaters with clunky Boatanchor type mobile gear, moved to VHF, then UHF analog cellular then on to microwave and with shirt pocket convenience.


In the70's, amateur VHF repeaters were for all intents, state of the art machines. Today, they have been eclipsed by the cell phone.

Not to start a real flamer, but if the current licensing structure didn't revolve around CW testing for HF operation, VHF and UHF repeater spectrum would become the Death Valley of Amateur Radio - with the exception of EMCOMM use.


Prior to the 70's (roughly), 2 meters was primarily an AM and CW band, then SSB became more popular, especially with satellite operations later on and then of course, FM. I suppose that's another reason why repeaters were so highly endorsed in the late 60's and 70's........these bands were practically unoccupied and have come full circle once again, almost right back where we started.


We need to face facts and move on to the next challenge, not get our egos in an uproar and prolong the stone age.



WA1RNE
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W2RDD on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have a twenty-year-old Azden with a hunk of no-antenna coax that I use to monitor, at home, a local 2-meter repeater. Even though the rig is no longer in the car as I am retired from commuting, I appreciate the guys on the road who are able to give road reports and approaching storm warnings. This repeater serves a real function, in my opinion. The personal conversations are none of my biz so I pretty much ignore them.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W5GM on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
This just reaks of an OM who has something against CTCSS. You then go on to suggest the use of a community tone panel. How strange. If you have a radio with out PL, my opinion is that it's time to move it into packet duty and upgrade.
The reason why there are a lot unused repeaters in my neck of the woods is that people are just busier. That and the fact that the newer bunch of folks can't seem to drop thier bad 27Mhz habits.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by G3SEA on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

It's inevitable that the decline in the general ham population activity wil be reflected in the decline of HF and repeater activity.

The return of higher sunspot activity will inevitably see greater activity ( for those without CC&R restrictions ) on HF.

IRLP users utlize VHF/UHF radios' at both ends of VOIP linked Repeaters as do many ( not all ie 'chat room ' pc to pc type connections :( ) Echolink users.

Those ' systems ' work for me as an expat when reliable HF ( and CC&R's ) make meaningful ' conversations ' as opposed to 599 73 contacts impossible.

You just use what works for you at the time :)

KH6/G3SEA
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W5RB on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Are there too many repeaters , especially on 2 meters ? Yep . Could user groups in some areas benefit by consolidating their repeater operations ? Absolutely .Is anything else in this article viable ? Nope.

All the allegedly insurmountable problems associated with CTCSS have long since been solved with announcement of the tone during periodic ID ,tone access that's remotely switchable ,anti-PL , and other simple solutions .Your suggestion for setting up a ham repeater like the old commercial "community repeaters" could have some merit , but lacks any mention of the necessity to monitor before transmitting , since users would not hear if members of another group were using the machine .Fringe access problems can usually be solved by setting tone deviation to 750 Hz , rather than 500 Hz , as usually recommended . That's not high enough to be audible , in most cases , but does provide noticeable range boost .Make repeaters popular again? How 'bout some CONTENT ?? Get an informal roundtable going on Wednesday night .Pick an article from the latest club newsletter , QST , CQ , QEX , or a favorite online site and discuss it .Gather up a few Elmers and have a Thursday night technical net , with questions .What's the latest DX news ? Something besides the same old drivel , that's what will get people active .Oh , while we're on the subject....CTCSS is basically obsolete already...hams should be using a LOT more DCS than they do , especially on 6 and 10 .Co-ordinators could encourage that by offering preference to DCS coded machines .Betcha THAT stirs up a comment or two .

 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KE7AKS on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well all you truck drivers out there, if you happen to pass thruogh Portland Oregon area, try 146.960 (NO TONE)needed we like to talk to all hams. This repeater has a large footprint and works well with HT's. It gets quite busy during commute times, but feel free to junp in, anytime. You can get info from other truckers or us locals. It is a club owned repeater, but open to all hams. I send support for it, and if you find it worth it we certainly would appreciate help. I am not even a member of the club yet, but I think it is a worthwhile repeater and the group of users on it, make for great conversation while commuting.

There is a way for clubs to use tones on repeaters to exclude monitoring all the trafic on the repeaters,
but so far the Icom V8000 is the only radio that I have that will do that. It has an UT-108 option card, that does DTMF DECODE. DTMF tones are passed by repeaters, not too many radios can decode DTMF though, yet many can encode DTMF.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K3WACKY on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Two people that posted on this thread have the answer,

It's the elite snobs that kick people off repeaters.

Many stories exist about how idle repeaters are suddenly used, and then those people are kicked off the repeater because they aren't part of the group or it's non-emergency traffic.

If the owners don't want just anyone using their repeater, then shut it down until *an authorized communication need* exists


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Lets make SIMPLEX popular again.  
by WB4M on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I must be a real OF. When studying for my upgrade years ago, I was taught to use simplex whenever possible and NOT tie up the repeater. I have nothing against repeater use, but most of the conversations I hear on the local one sound like the hams are trying their best to come up with something to say.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KD5PSH on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
When a CW requirement was dropped, the hobby picked up a lot of new "hams" that were not at all interested in the hobby. They did however, want to use repeaters for business and/or while boating etc..

Along came cell phones, and who needed ham repeaters?
Now there are a few CB'ers and truck drivers using the repeaters, and here in New Mexico, a solid bunch of search and rescue type guys that put our massive repeater system to good use. Which is what it should be for.

Personally, I don't use repeaters much. The guys that do use the repeaters don't seem to have much to say that would hold my attention. But, at least there are some fellows on the repeaters that could be called from our wide open spaces if an emergency occurs. our system covers an area about five times the size of New England.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KF6JZC on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The I have used repeaters mostly for NET comms. The NET comms are really practice for a real emergency. The one thing interesting about that is that in all simulated emergencies that I have been involved in use simplex anyway. Go Figure!!!!
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K0RGR on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I think you're on the right track, but there's a fundamental problem.

In your area, how many repeaters exist because there's a real need and how many exist because they stroke somebody's ego?

The only way we'll get rid of the dead repeaters out there is if FCC starts charging for repeater licenses. A lot of them would go away if that happened.

I've observed around here that when there are only 2 repeaters on the air, there is a lot of activity. But when all 3 are on the air, there is very little. It's because nobody knows where to look for their buddies. There isn't a 'critical mass' of users on any one machine needed to sustain it.

I've had an idea for quite a while that I've thrown out here. APRS beacons are fairly common around the country, and it's not hard to add more. These beacons send various data via packet radio on a regular basis.

We could have these beacons transmit a short list of the top open repeaters in an area, along with their PL tones. Travellers could receive these lists, and use appropriate technology to set the local repeater channels in their radios. In many cases, this could be automated. This would solve the problem of looking up repeaters and setting PL frequencies as you go down the road. The repeaters on the 'traveller' list would be the 'calling' channels for their area. You should also be able to look up beacons and repeater lists on the net.

PL really isn't the enemy - we just have to learn to use it to our advantage.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WB2WIK on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I don't think "tone access" has anything to do with repeater usage (or not).

Here in southern CA, all repeaters are REQUIRED to have tone access (CTCSS) or they cannot be coordinated, and that rule's been in effect for at least 15 years. I think longer, actually.

Shortly after this was implemented, activity didn't change in the slightest.

I think the "slide" has a little bit to do with cell/PCS phones, but not a lot. Mostly, I think the shine came off the new toy after 30 years (or longer).

I was there nearly at the start of FM-repeater use and have used VHF FM repeaters since 1966. I put my own first repeater on the air in 1973, and it was a wide-coverage, heavily-used system. But that's 33 years ago! I'm surprised they lasted this long.

There's nothing technically interesting in putting an FM mobile or portable station on the air and chit-chatting with it. The original appeal was the technical challenge. It was interesting and fun. Most folks used modified taxi radios and such to get on the air, and making a station actually work well was an accomplishment.

Not so nowadays. The thrill is gone, get on to the next thing.

Lots of HF mobile activity nowadays, with the plethora of small, inexpensive mobile rigs around...

WB2WIK/6
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by NA4IT on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
A couple of comments, about repeaters and ownwer / trustees:

(1) When a repeater owner / trustee ask someone to refrain from using the repeater, he is doing just that. He is telling you not to use the repeater on that frequency. Now if the FCC asks you, that probably means to not use the repeater or the frequency. What can get you "asked to refrain"? Profanity, sending DTMF tones when you know there is no autopatch available, terrible audio from your rig and your refusal to fix it, lots of stuff. Play nice and the repeater owner / trustee will play nice. Might even offer to check your rig on his service monitor (you know, that $3995 piece of test equipment he bought...).

(2) Paying dues to a club to support a repeater... how much do you usually pay in yearly dues? $20, $25. Ever priced how much a 2M repeater costs? Ever had to work on one? Ever listen to every one gripe about the repeater not being on the air and when are you going to fix it?

(3) Ever been a repeater owner / trustee? They are supposed to be in the know about what goes on their repeater. That means monitoring it. And yes, if you decide since you are a night owl to get on and chit chat at 2AM, I might be inclined to shut it down too! Some type of help call, yea I'll get up and answer that one. But, sometimes you just have to practice some good ol common sense.

(4) Lighten up on the repeater owner / trustee...he does a LOT more than you think!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W9OY on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe if we apply festive psychedelic appliques to the box, repeaters will become more popular.

This is a problem?

73 W9OY
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KE7AKS on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I hate the exclusionist attitude of some hams...
Use repeaters only for emergencies --- how STUPID.
Just buy an old cell phone from a garage sale, don't even activate it, but use it only for EMERGENCIES.
911 calls are free and don't require activation. I use a repeater that gets quite busy, but if you break a heater hose and need a phone call to home or if you need to have some help that is URGENT (not life and death)but don't need 911, or havn't had an earth quake or hurricane, there is ususlly several people available to help you out. If no one uses the repeater except to make simplex contacts, then on 2 meters you limit your footprint to about 50 miles even with my V-8000 on 75 watts. There are enough repeaters in the Portland area that are seldom used, so that you can usually have your QSO on an unused one. We have repeaters that actually announce WELCOME TO THE REPEATER.. Maybe us West Coast hams are just more friendly, and have the attitude of "use it or loose it". If you do use a repeater a lot, then if everyone that uses sends 25.00 per year, and that multiplies by a couple of hundred users, the club /owner operator may be inclined to encourage MANY folks to use it. If you heard of an antenna system that you could call with only 5 watts, from 25-30 milea away, for only 50 dollars per year .....
Why not contribute to your local repeater?
 
Lets make HAM RADIO popular again  
by N1KDO on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Whatever the mode, be it 2m FM repeater, 160M AM, PSK, CW EME, RTTY, 75 meter late night ragchewing...

Quit yer bitchin and get on the radio!

Turn off the TV, close Firefox or Internet Explorer, and turn on the radio!

We can all make ham radio more fun for ourselves and our fellow hams by getting on the air! Turn on the radio and make some QSOs. Try some new modes. You'll have fun, and so with the other hams you work. How can you help to make ham radio more popular? Get on the air!

Jeff
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WR8D on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Here it was the advent of the bootleg freebanding cber that came into our hobby a few years back. They went from 27.500 to extra class in under six months. Here some good willing amateurs taught a school, the end result was pass the 5wpm and come away with a general class license. Well, they did all this but maintained their dumbass attitudes. Their idea of fun was get on a repeater and act like dumbasses infront of the older hams. They would'nt use their amateur calls only their cb handles and maybe in an hours time you'd hear a call. All this after several repeated attempts at elmering them. Believe me we covered all the bases in a very soft spoken manner. After repeated attemps at elmering these idiots, and yes that word applies perfectly, here at least we all took a stand and called in the fcc. Oh yes, on those "rare" occassions they would be stupid enough to give their calls we had them. Most of you have been fortunate and not had these types turned loose on you. Many of you will read this and be in "denial" that this could possibly happen. Well, it did and it is an ongoing problem. If you want to get the "hams" back on the repeaters...in most place you'll have to take them back like we did here. This thread though is probably just some attempt to start a flame war but i love the chance to tell the story of how we took our repeaters back. The old saying applies here, you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink...you can give a chickenbander a ham license but that'll never make him an amateur radio operator. Sad sounding, yes its harsh too, and no this does'nt apply to all newbies...but it sure as hell applies to them in this part of the country. Now for those of you that this shoe does not fit, just ignore it...Many of you can wear it very damn well though. This also has nothing at all to do with me passing 20wpm years ago, or being an amateur for around 25 years..i don't think i'm one bit better than any of you...so lets not start this old fart crap. Most of us love this hobby and we despise to see it trashed. Alas, lower the requirements for entry, it becomes like anything else. There's still plenty of us that honor it though around to tell you dumbasses just how dumb you are. Yeehear me?? Rogeeeeeoooo . "I heard those terms on 40m phone this past week". Pitiful is all i can say. John WR8D:
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KX8N on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Whatever the mode, be it 2m FM repeater, 160M AM, PSK, CW EME, RTTY, 75 meter late night ragchewing...

Quit yer bitchin and get on the radio!

Turn off the TV, close Firefox or Internet Explorer, and turn on the radio!

We can all make ham radio more fun for ourselves and our fellow hams by getting on the air! Turn on the radio and make some QSOs. Try some new modes. You'll have fun, and so with the other hams you work. How can you help to make ham radio more popular? Get on the air!

Jeff "


Jeff, that's the best advice given in ANY forum for a long time.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K3UD on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Very interesting topic.

Speaking for myself, there seems to be some merit to what the author is saying. I have little doubt that tones on many repeaters within 100 or so miles of my QTH have served to limit activity mainly because of all the older equipment still in use in this area. For a number of years I always had a 2 meter mobile radio in my car oe van. This did not have a decode function and a lot of repeaters did not broadcast their tones with the identifier. I did have encode capabilities but without knowing the tones repeaters were using, I was in the dark.

The other problem that was touched on here is the existance of many "closed" repeaters that exist for a very few hams who have privileges to use it. All others are out of luck. IMHO closed private repeaters are not in the spirit of the Amateur Radio service and should be removed and the frequency pair turned over to open repeaters only. This has served to sour some hams on repeater use.

There are about 40+ repeaters that I can hear at my QTH. Usually all I hear is the identifiers and rarely hear any users. I started out on 2 meter FM in about 1968 using a GE Pre Progress transceiver on 34/76 (anyone else remember that split)? I have come to believe that with the exception of densely populated metro areas, repeater use seems to be fading away.


73
George
K3UD
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N1EY on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
:As ticked off as I was I decided it wasn't worth the
:aggrivation since it was their repeater and they could
:do as they pleased, so we found another (not as
:high-profile) repeater where the owners, hearing about
:the aforementioned incident, asked us to use their
:repeater.

The same thing has apparently happened here in Massachusetts. The machine has fantastic coverage
with very very little use. Hardly anyone uses it
during commuting hours. Throughout the rest of day it
sees zero use.

It is kind of funny that the snob comes on the air and says that the users were tying it up at 11 PM. What did he care? a real ham would clear the frequency, if there was a need for emergency use.

Bill
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WB9QVR on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It seems to me that a just a few of these posts have touched upon what I feel is a real reason there seems to be less repeater activity - there are simply too many repeaters. In the 'old days' there may have been a couple of repeaters on the air in a given area. Also, since most of the rigs were crystal-controlled, the activity was concentrated on what few repeaters were available. In today's environment in which repeaters are relatively inexpensive to put on the air (at least as compared to what they cost 25 years ago) many individuals and groups have opted to put up their own machines. Each repeater has a small group of users that use it as their 'home' frequency thus spreading the total amount of activity among many machines instead of just a few. In short - the total amount of users is probably greater than ever before. However, it's spread among so many repeaters that the use of any given system is quite low.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
First, CTCSS tones were enacted....introduced....well you pick the adverb--to end problems associated with intermod and to reject close or harmonic signals that tripped the repeaters on, not to be able to crowd more repeaters into limited bandspace.

Yes, the cell phone has removed quite a bit of the use of VHF ham bands and repeaters for people checking on their family or friends. Face it, picking up the mike and calling was good, but everybody on the frequency could hear you. Pick up the cell phone, dial, and you've got a private line--at least more private than an open frequency.

Also, given the pricing of cell phones, for less than $50 you can have a cell phone. The cheapest mobile rig runs about $130, then the antenna is another $20 or $30. The less costly but still useable handheld (I'll choose a five watt model, any less and it's virtually unuseable unless you're very near the repeater or the other person you're calling) is still around $100--more than a cell phone unless you count in the plan cost or the add minutes cards.

Repeaters were and are a fad--just as the CB radios were, and just as the CB bands are now, mostly empty except for some die-harders, the repeaters are deserted except for some commuters and local net die-harders. This is not intended as criticism or as a disgrundled ham operator taking shots at others, but simply as a hard, cold fact. Just as the calling channel isn't monitored very much anywhere, the repeaters aren't either.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
There is the matter of exclusion, that is some hams being excluded from using a repeater--if you've done nothing wrong, that is if the repeater owner just wants you to stay off his machine, you can file for a hearing before the FCC. The repeater owner has to give his reasons for you not being allowed to use the machine. If he has no proof you used the machine illegally or against the set rules and you have proof he is just excluding you for personal reasons he may be forced to allow you to use the machine or be forced to give up the frequencies and or his rights to have the repeater. Yes, it is a long drawn out battle to do this, but it has been done successfully.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N1GXC on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
A lot of very good comments. I live in a medium size town, Lakeland , Fl. I'm busy with other hobbies all week (retired) but I do listen to our five 2m repeaters at work (part-time) on the weekends. There is no traffic. I put out a number of calls to no avail. I'm not sure what the answer is but one repeater could easily serve the entire Lakeland, Bartow, Lake Wales, Plant City and Polk city area. Super ego's would prevent this from happening.

73, Dan WZ1P (formerly N1GXC)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W0IPL on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
As was said early in the "discussion", yours is a solution looking for a problem to fix and this is not the problem.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AC7KZ on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Two Words:

Cell Phones.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AC7CW on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I quit the hobby for awhile for many reasons, time mainly, but the jerks on the 2 meter repeaters was a big part of the reason. After listening to their comments for months on the local repeaters, I just could not stand the lack of supervision. I don't think some of them even had licenses. One guy would just make these really stupid comments that seemed to be designed to sicken anybody with natural sensibilities and never sign. The repeater owners apparently thought that we should ignore them and they would go away. They outlasted me actually. A minimum requirement for a repeater that I ever own would be a DF'ing setup. I would "dialogue" with these sickies up close and personal.

My daughter was interested in the hobby until she heard some CB'ers and some repeater sickies and she dropped the idea like a bad habit.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K7PEH on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I will thrown in my two-bits as a rather repeater naive neophyte.

I got back into the hobby in 2004 after being away for 38 years. My last license back then was a Novice and I spent my on-air times doing CW on 40 meters. When I got back and licensed up, I went directly to General class and HF privileges. It was almost a year later (early 2005) when I got myself a little 2-meter HT to try out repeaters.

Well, I never got the hang of it. I have met a few local hams via the repeater and it is nice for that since it is relatively local but I must admit that the tone access thing is a real stumbling block. Sure I can scan the frequencies and hear some repeater activity but without having a repeater directory available, I am out of luck. And, I am most often trying out 2-meters when I am out with my wife on her bird photography trips around the Puget Sound area. Lots of good access but without knowledge of the tone frequencies, I am dead silent. I could carry along a repeater directory and I have tried that but I am already carrying my HT, carrying my wife's tripod when she is not using it, and sometimes carrying her camera bag as she crawls through the tall grass looking for blue herons or something like that.

I have programmed in a number of repeaters but Puget Sound is a large wide area with lots of different repeaters available. I suppose I could program in all of them but then enters another problem -- remembering which memory channel I placed that repeater that I just picked up on scan.

So, although I have been on several repeaters, I find the tone access to be a barrier to me. But, remember, I am used to HF SSB where calling CQ or answering someone's CQ doesn't require any else thing but your rig.

No, I wouldn't recommend abandoning repeaters. But, the technology exists for the repeater to broadcast its tone frequeny via a narrow band digital signal or even a tone burried in the FM signal -- in fact, many repeaters can do that now. My HT should be able to read that tone frequency and display it. Sort of like. I would like to see that repeater tone frequency right under the digital display of the repeater output frequency. That is, 145.330, tone 79.9. Heck, the HT should automatically set the tone frequency when it picks it up. Now, why doesn't this exist now.

phil, K7PEH
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by RobertKoernerExAE7G on August 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well.
I don�t have a cell phone.
I don�t use repeaters.

I went from Novice to General�never considered becoming a Tech. Once my code speed approached 13wpm, I started studying the theory. I took my test in Albany NY from the FCC.

At one time, I bought an HT for 2 meters. For a while, I had a 2 meter rig in my car.

I sold the 2 meter rig from my car.

The best use I found for my HT was on a packet DX cluster.

The internet is much better for DX spots.

Ducting, meteor scatter, satellites, EME sound interesting. Repeaters, not interesting�nothing to do with cell phones, or tones to get into a repeater, or too many or too few repeaters.

Let us all know how your repeater does under dual club management; it sounds like a nightmare.

Let us know how you do reducing the number of repeaters, and how many repeaters operators drop access tones after you've reduced the repeaters their area.

Bob
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N8EMR on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
#Tone access limits the ability of the repeater to receive remote "fringe" stations.

If your so weak you cant hold a PL tone, then your noisy enough most people are not going to want to listen to you on a repeater.

#Equipment without tone access capability making the equipment obsolete.

Its 2006, when was the last radio to offer TONE as an option, Its been included as standard for the last, OH 15+ years.

#Eliminates the use of the repeater by emergency groups.

HOW?

#Traveling hams don't know the access tone and don't use it.
A simple voice announcment will solve this issue. I do agree it would be nice if there was a national CODE to turn off input PL for a short time to allow for travelers to jump on a repeater if they dont know.

#Promotes coordination of too many and too close repeaters on the same frequency pairs.
No its the coordinators that are causing this problem. Its the repeater operators who DONT want to work togeather that cause this problem.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB9TMP on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
As I see it there are three reasons that the repeaters go silent. 1. Cellphones 2. Internet 3. Who has time to talk with all the other things going on in life that requires our attention? Our priorities should be God, Family, Work, then Radio!

Just my $0.02 worth.

WW - KB9TMP

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
– Adam Savage
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N3OX on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I had a good time working the repeaters around Erie, PA when I was starting out in 1995. I could usually find someone in the area or up in Ontario to talk to, and often the repeater DX would roll in when the tropo ducting fired up. I remember the day when I started to hear repeaters with 9's in their calls ... 9's??! Worked some guys in South Bend, IN on a repeater that day. Even after I started being an almost-all-HF guy I still kept the V/UHF FM gear hooked up; I had a lot of friends that I'd talk to on there and we had actual conversations.

I think that the rules for repeater access control probably need to be revised. If you're talking on some repeater to your friends and someone just shuts the damn thing off on you because you're not paying dues, that's going to sour you to repeater operation pretty quickly. There are too many repeaters. Eliminating the closed ones would thin the herd a bit, and yeah, some otherwise skilled repeater operators would be upset that they couldn't spend their money to put up their repeater for a small group who was kicking in a their share. I think, though, that the closed or effectively closed repeater is damaging to the hobby.

2m repeaters are the bait to get new hams hooked. Like it or not, when you've got a nice shiny new Tech ticket and you scan the space of affordable radios, the $170 2m FM mobile rig seems like a great idea. In that light, hams that have been in the game for a while should be filling the 2m repeaters with chatter about the DX they worked, their contest scores, their great net down on 75m AM, the new 1296 transverter, their first moonbounce contact the night before, or their new great stealth HF setup. If you've got a local group of hams you like to keep in touch with and you can do it on a 2m repeater, do it. Most of us like to talk to most of the rest of us about ham radio. Do it on 2m when you can and the new hams who are listening in can learn a lot.

Oh, and K7PEH: I like the idea of auto-tone. It might cost a bit more to put in a little DSP chip doing an FFT and talking to the processor, but it would totally be worth it.

A lot of 2m rigs have tone scan but it's usually buried a couple of menus deep. In today's oft-PL'ed repeater world, a front panel button for tone scan would be great.

Dan
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular for the first time!  
by N4QA on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Just require everyone to use MCW on the FM repeater machines. Now *that* would make them come alive with activity!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WN3VAW on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
OK, let's cut to the chase.

The primary topic question remains: Why aren't repeaters as popular as once they were?

Are there too many? In some areas. Not in all. So maybe, in those areas, repeaters that are highly underutilized could be consolidated. Who decides? Ahh, there's the rub.

Have cell phones siphoned off some activity? Yes. How much? Good question. Who knows? Suffice to say, there were some hams who were active on repeaters in large part to have access to autopatch capablities, and cell phone technology has made that reason obsolete.

Have the self-appointed frequency cops chased some hams off of "their" repeaters. Yup. Happens all the time. It's been happening for 30 years, this is nothing new. Solution? Find another repeater to talk on, and don't let the trolls get you down.

Have CTCSS tones kept some hams off of repeaters. Well, yes, it does happen. Usually it's a new ham (or new to repeaters) who doesn't know how to program or reprogram a radio, in rare cases it's older equipment that needs retrofitted. Again, this isn't a new problem, it's been ongoing since the advent of CTCSS 20+ years ago. Is it a significant part of the problem? I doubt it.

So what is the cause?

Again, some of it is activity that now takes place on cell phones, or FRS, or other services. But I don't believe, at least in some areas, that this is a major part of it.

At least in some areas, I think the real problem is too many hams listening and not enough operating.

The solution to the problem is to GET ACTIVE. Hook up with some friends and start using a repeater. (If this means you have to join the club owning it and help support it, well, it should be worth it, right?) I think that you'll find that as more people use the machine, more people get interested in the machine, and more use the machine.

It's the chicken & the egg. Which comes first, the active repeater, or the users using it?

If you want more activity, then bootstrap your repeater!

73, ron w3wn
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KC0RDG on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I am Tech and I spend almost all my time listening to HF rather than talking on the local repeaters.

I find the repeater people are very clichy. In general, the conversations are very boring and as WB4M said, most of the time the it seems as if the hams are trying their best to come up with something to say. I know someone will say, "Then join in, make new friends, ignite the conversation with something you think is not boring." I've tried this. It seems as if when I do, the talk consists of enough to 'make me happy' with what I'm interested in, then the talk goes back to mindnumbingly stupid topics.

I have passed my General written, up to 20 characters learned on the code. Very soon I'll be able to communicate on HF! The one thing I struggle with is having to learn a mode which I will never use. I would prefer to be tested on digital modes since they will be my primary mode of operation once on HF. Alas, the CW learning goes on.

This is my opinion, granted not everyone will feel the way I do.

kc0rdg
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB2SDR on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have to admit that places like Maryland are over populated with repeaters.. But now living out here in South Dakota, I have to drive over 100 miles to get a repeater. But if people ever descide to get rid of their repeaters, please feel free to send one my way, so I can add one to the void here. Until then HF is my only option.

73
kb2sdr
Jason
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KC8VWM on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

In general, the conversations are very boring and as WB4M said, most of the time the it seems as if the hams are trying their best to come up with something to say.

--------------------

This is KC8VWM in the group over to KC0RDG for his comments, hi hi and fine business.

:)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N4ZOU on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N8EMR <#Eliminates the use of the repeater by emergency groups. HOW?>
Everyone in the emergency group MUST monitor the repeater 24/7 for the emergency call up. If you have no way to squelch everything else on the repeater it becomes useless as you would turn it off when trying to sleep, eat, watch TV and everything else. Would you monitor a repeater 24/7 for an emergency while also listening to all the repeater traffic? I don�t think so. The local emergency group (civil defense) dropped all affiliation with the ham repeater club when they put tone access on it. It simply became unusable for them. This included the use of CD equipment for field day or anything else and the use of the CD building for club meetings. The CD group contracted Nextel to provide communications at that point and kicked out the Hams.
Hams would be more inclined to listen to a repeater for emergency calls if the capability is there to squelch everything else. It would be simple to implement, simply pick a nationally used CTCSS tone used for emergency calls. Anyone listening for emergency calls would only hear emergency calls for help on their transceiver and not other repeater traffic.
Commercial repeaters use CTCSS access this way and sell access to groups of users. Ham radio operators should consider operation of there repeaters this way as well to vastly increase the capabilities of there repeater.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KC0SHZ on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KR4WM, Technician (even no-code Ham's) have access to the bulk of Ham radio!

26 bands total, minus the 9 bands from 160 Meters through 10 Meters leaves 17 bands that Technicians can use.

_____

This is true as far as it goes, but there is very little in the way of use of the higher frequencies beyond UHF,and the new Ham gets inundated with HF stories. Look at your typical club during FD, ever see a microwave transmitter? Its not that you can't find homebrew or inexpensive 1200 or 2400 MHz antennas, but finding them without any guidance? That is something that is difficult.

As long as the HF frequencies are all the new Hams are hearing about, then the HF will be the desired target of the new Ham.

To the original point of the poster, the repeaters are often ignored and denigrated as "not really radio" or "dinosaurs in a cell phone world". Repeaters are neither. They are ignored by Hams as they go to HF and as they go through the local repeaters and find no traffic.

The role of repeaters and simplex radio needs to be emphasized. We have a lot of events where these machines surpass cell phones in communication. Ham radio still has cell phone communication beat in the area of multi-point communication (Like where is the doctor? calls during a bike race.)

We need to take a fresh look at how we are training new Hams and the unintended messages we send. If we want repeaters to be used, we have to tell new Hams that these are useful and encourage the development of usage skills on these machines and in 2 meter radio in general.

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AB2MH on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
> K3WACKY wrote:

> Two people that posted on this thread have the
> answer,

> It's the elite snobs that kick people off
> repeaters.

> Many stories exist about how idle repeaters are
> suddenly used, and then those people are kicked off
> the repeater because they aren't part of the group
> or it's non-emergency traffic.

> If the owners don't want just anyone using their
> repeater, then shut it down until *an authorized
> communication need* exists

> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To add, I would like to know WHY "private" repeaters are coordinated.

There is no frequency assignment in ham radio, but coordination seems to allow repeater owners to get around that rule.

It is only fair that if you're essentially given "ownership" to a pair of amateur radio frequencies to put a repeater on that you should not deny your fellow hams usage of your repeater, within reason.

Of course it is OK to kick LIDs off the machine if they prove themselves to be a nuisance.

But Joe ham public should be allowed free access, or you should be made to give up your frequency pair.

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KC8VWM on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I would like to know WHY "private" repeaters are coordinated.

--------------

Simple... "Interference"
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K9MI on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, if nothing else, this subject created a lot of activity. I've been the trustee of our club's repeater for the last 5 or 6 years. It has the ability to be used with PL, but it is only turned on when we had interference problems and when the same pair in a different state starts keying our repeater all the time. 70 mile seperation is not enough. Any time the PL is on, there is a message sent out that informs users of what the PL is. I realize this is not the best for hams driving through. Even if the PL was not anounced, I've seen some of the newer radios have "tone scan". And VHF/UHF rigs are so cheap anymore, cost should not be a problem for most.

One of the best things, that is usually standard equipment in your $150 or less 2m mobile is "tone squelch". Our repeater has a PL tone of 151.4, and also transmits that tone on every transmission. That function is probably in 99% of the VHF/UHF radios being sold now. With this, unless my rig hears a tone of 151.4 hz on our repeater, I don't hear anything. 3 of the 5 repeaters in our town are setup that way. The last 2 mornings, I've came in the shack, and my rig was showing a full scale signal, but I wasn't hearing anything, as it was the other repeater.

Our biggest problem is lack of use. And I've listened around and it's not the only one. On one hand, 5 repeaters and 3 different radio clubs, two repeaters serve as IRLP nodes, seems like over kill to me. But I guess the day could come we could have a disaster and need that many, as unlikely as it seems.

73, Mike K9MI






















 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AB2MH on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>Simple... "Interference"

Well my point really was that there should not be any "private" repeaters, and that coordinated repeaters should be open to all, except proven troublemakers.

I don't believe it is wrong to ask for a donation or club membership if one regularly uses a repeater but to force someone off for not paying to use the repeater is wrong, and might just be illegal.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W5AOX on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What I miss about the "Good Old Days" of 2 meter repeaters was way back when almost every repeater (or repeater area) had an old timer or two who seemed to take it upon themselves to monitor the local repeater and respond to mobiles, newcomers, and any ham who didn't seem to be getting an answer from anyone else.
When driving through an unfamiliar area it was great to have one of these types respond to you and provide a few minutes of chit-chat, local info, such as where the local 2 Meter activity might be, etc.
These guys seem to have died off. Now it seems most towns, even small ones like Holbrook AZ, have a repeater or two that are listed in the directory, and usually will respond with a carrier when you "kerchunk" them. But no one seems to monitor them, nor do many ever monitor the 146.52 national simplex calling frequency.
I operate HF mobile too, but it is not easy to maintain QSO's with varying propagation and times of day, etc. Any ham radio-ing that involves a conversation can eat up a LOT of miles on a long trip and is very welcome and increasingly hard to find. 2 meters is still a good choice for mobile hamming, IF there was only someone to talk to along the way.

If clubs and ham groups are useful at all, why can't we make up rosters of willing hams to perform scheduled monitoring duties of a particular repeater to increase the possibility of someone getting a response when someone DOES come through your area looking for a 2 meter contact? If we participated in such scheduled monitoring/activity duties, we would certainly be performing a public service and it would not overload ONE ham trying to do it all himself.
Just a few hours of keeping the rig on and within earshot so you could catch any activity if it occurs... most of us could afford to donate that kind of time on a once a week or a couple times a month basis. The assigned volunteer could even scan several machines to increase his chances of catching the stray mobile. I've heard there are a FEW areas where just such scheduled monitoring occurs, such as in the Milwaukee WI area, and it results in a lot of good will and activity in those areas.
Even the IRLP and Echolink nodes could use some scheduled monitoring so that someone would be available to chat with instead of the "dead silence" usually encountered after a call.
PL ( //otorola's patented term for Tone Coded Squelch) is not the problem. Increased noise and interference make it almost impossible to keep a repeater running without it. 100 Hz seems to be the most common "open tone" used on open repeaters, at least out here in the Southwest.
Jim W5AOX
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K0RGR on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KB2SDR - I see a 146.79 repeater on Eagle Butte, which is 18 miles from Dupree. I don't know if it's tied into the statewide repeater network or not. I would think you could get into the mountain-top repeaters in Rapid City from Dupree, too.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KE7AKS on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
One of the arguments that I have heard is REPEATERS COST A LOT OF MONEY TO PURCHASE AND MAINTAIN. Well, let's see, You spend all that MONEY and TIME to set up and maintain a repeater, then want no one to use it? I have invested a few thousand dollars over the last 5 years in ham radios, and if there is no one out there to chat with on the repeater during my commute, or no one wants to talk about, FISHING, HOME MAINTENANCE TIPS, AUTO MANAGEMENT AND REPAIR, BICYCLING, SMOKING MEAT, BARBECUING, BUILDING YOUR OWN ANTENNAS, WATER WELL MANAGEMENT, EVEN HAM RADIO,
and whatever, all my radios, and all the repeaters are worth NOTHING. --- I bet the majority of people that are reading this would have NO trouble finding intresting things to talk to everyone on a repeater about. You have spent money and time to get on the air, the folks spent time and money to make the repeaters available, it is up to YOU to use them, or they are worthless to you, and just GIVE ME your stuff. Me and my friends could exercise them.---

As for not having to listen to too much chatter while monitoring a repeater for EMERGENCY CALL OUT. just buy a DTMF decode kit from Ramsey electronics, put it on an ear phone jack, let one of the relays operate some light, or alarm. Then when they call you out have them send a DTMF code to you to page you while they are calling by voice for you. You can do that for all your ARES / RACES group... Many Ham radio units have DTMF mics or a DTMF pad somewhere. Ever wonder why most new radios have all those buttons on the mic... They are not just for AUTOPATCHES, they activate ECHO LINKS, IRLP, CLUB - INDIVIDUAL PAGING ETC.

Just use that EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT or it it is worth nothing to you,----Just give it to ME !!!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB9CRY on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Just use that EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT or it it is worth nothing to you


I use my expensive equipment, for DXing. For me and maybe a lot of the folks who used to be on the repeaters but newer technology has eliminated the need for repeaters, we're all DXing. We don't want to talk about fishing, etc. etc.

And my club is very aware of the cost of keeping our repeater up and running. Actually the only real cost is the rental space on the building. We know that eventually we'll be required to seek other options and may lose coverage.

There are a lot of hams who are not into yaking while mobiling, even though we were "forced" to in years gone by since that was the only option to exchange info.

Repeater usage will never be like it used to be.

Phil KB9CRY
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K0RGR on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well, I think we all agree that there is a perceived problem here.

I don't know if I buy the argument that 2 meter FM was a "fad". I think there are other issues that really need to be addressed.

The 'repeater troll' mentioned earlier was a big part of the problem here (and I don't mean you , Joe!). We had a couple of them. It's one thing to get on the repeater and always get an answer. It's another thing if the person who answers is mentally incapacitated in some way. Only the most persistent of these guys show up on repeaters that are busy, or maybe the repeaters are busy because these guys don't show up.

PL is an issue. I can't remember what my first 2 meter FM rig was, but it was made by a company that doesn't exist now, and it used a vibrator power supply. It was replaced by a GE Progline with a solid state power supply.

I've never found tone scan to be a usable feature on any of the many rigs I own. It's just too clumsy.
Voice announcements help a lot, particularly if the PL tones are standardized in an area. However, setting the PL tone on my radios while in motion is attempted suicide. It's impossible to remember the silly key combinations. Radio manufacturers need to make it as easy and obvious to set the PL as it is to set the frequency. Put a 'PL set' button on the front panel! This alone would help travellers a great deal.

I've had a couple other thoughts for "desired standard features for repeaters". Like the 'long tone zero' 'LTZ' function that some implemented years to let a long '0' on a keypad override tones and alert others, some other tone combination could be standardized to allow travellers to connect and perhaps trigger an announcement of the PL tone, or just override it for a period of time.

Another would be a code that would initiate links to other repeater. The first time you issue the code, it would link in three neighboring repeaters. The next time, it would expand the circle further. In areas with limited repeater coverage, this could be very helpful in finding random QSOs.

I think the biggest problem of all is that we've gotten out of the habit of sitting in the hamshack and listening to two meters. I always used to have a rig next to me, but I've gotten out of the habit.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
We had a couple here almost kill all the activity on a local repeater. They used the repeater like it was their cell phone and discussed all sorts of personal matters on the air. The male half would call his female counterpart on the air about once every five minutes so he could keep track of her every move while she was out of his sight. I was one of the few people that would make their dislike of the practice known to all. Everyone else hated it and wouldn't say anything about it. Some had the 'if you don't like what you hear, spin the dial' attitude. And that is what everyone did, including the president of the club that owned the repeater. The repeater became to be known as 'so and so's cell phone'.

The club for some reason said that so long as what they were doing was legal, they wouldn't take a stand.

It got to the point where they started hiding the meaning of their conversations, like 'did you go get that ONE thing, you know what I mean..'

I then brought the issue of encryption up to the president of the club. I also quoted a section of Part 97 that makes the use of amateur radio as a substitute for other available means of communications (they both had cell phones) on a REGULAR AND ONGOING BASIS an illegal activity.

Finally, something was said and now the repeater is starting to get used more often.

Quite simply, one or two people can take advantage of the good nature of hams to the point of driving them off a perfectly good repeater.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KE7AKS on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
JUST a challenge to all hams ... You and I didn't likely buy, and set up radios just to look at the nice little units. We bought them to talk about interesting subjects to others and to be able to get information.
The challenge to ALL hams is to make the people that hear us talking, interested in what we talk about.
I don't like to hear a bunch of negative... that jerk just cut me off at the intersection .... these EX-CBers TALKING ABOUT WHOS RIG IS BETTER THAN WHOS ... MY BAD KNEE IS ACTING UP AGAIN ... THE WORLD IS FULL OF DUMMIES ...
I say it is a challenge for us to guide the conversations toward things that are intresting and positive. I have heard discussions on the repeater that people just couldn't wait to put in their "TWO CENTS WORTH"
I bet if we all try harder to talk about something that we are really intrested in, we might start something really positive.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I think there should be an unwritten rule about talking on a repeater.

Do not talk about things that other people don't want to hear about.

Number one on my list is detailed descriptions of medical problems, especially any discussions about colons. It's one thing to let someone know why you were off the air for a period of time, it's another to give an hour by hour rendition of every medical procedure done accompanied by a narrative of personal doctor to patient conversations. Ever wonder why an examining room has a door and it is SHUT while the exam is going on??

Politics....no need to discuss them on a repeater. That is what simplex is for.

To a certain extent, religion. This is not to say that hearing 'God Bless' or making a suggestion that prayers should be made is offensive, it is not to me and I am an agnostic. The extent I refer to is the discussion of the merits of one form of religion over another, or said merits over no form of religion. Again, there is enough room on simplex for this.

Cussing, profanity and obscenity. These should not even be hinted to. Repeaters ALL should be G Rated.

The above should be common sense, but for some reason it is not. Especially the part about medical issues. Some people get really graphic about their procedures and I for one really don't like hearing about them. Remember, some people are eating while they listen to the repeaters.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KE7AKS

Great minds think alike!!

:)
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KU4UV on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Most idiotic thing I have ever heard over a repeater happened last summer. This guy got on one of the local repeaters here in Lexington,Kentucky and was chatting with one of the local hams. It was around 1:00 in the morning, and the guy said he was headed home to Alabama from the Dayton Hamvention. The guy heading to Alabama told the local ham that he should have been back home in Alabama already, but that he had made a wrong turn coming out of Dayton, and headed NORTH on I-75 instead of going South. The guy said he didn't realize he had screwed up until he noticed the sign that said, "Welcome to Michigan." I guess he missed all of those nice little signs along the interstate telling him he was heading Northbound. And this wasn't an old man, this was a guy probably in his 30's or 40's! Maybe he snorted some blow before he left Dayton, I don't know. I believe I would have kept that screw-up to myself though. Need I say more about why I hate repeaters? I will stick with SSB or satellites for all of my VHF/UHF from now on, thank you.

73,
KU4UV
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KC8VWM on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I bet if we all try harder to talk about something that we are really interested in, we might start something really positive.

------------------------------

Applause...

Best thing said yet...

Incidentally, I am not usually in the same person's vehicle with whom I am engaged in a conversation with during the daily commute to work, so I suppose I don't really find it necessary nor, do I require a play by play analysis of how bad the city engineers have designed all the city roads in Any town, USA on any given day of the week. Amateur radio typically does not have any affiliation with any DOT or road engineer entities. In addition, there is only SkyWarn and not any RoadWarn nets that I am aware of. ("net control we have a 4"x 8" inch pothole located at the corner of...)

Secondly, I am not interested in hearing a complete account about how some certain "jerk" just cut you off while commuting in traffic including the idea of a detailed report outlining the drivers exact rate of speed, current trajectory and direction of travel, vehicle gross weight and make and model of car who is now traveling slowly in front of you at the intersection of walk and don't walk, Any town, USA. (.. Is this supposed to be an episode of COPS or something?)

In addition, I really don't want to hear people sign on the repeater one minute as "mobile and listening" and then the next minute later the same person starts having a conversation with someone describing how they just left the bar after partying with their drinking buddies and are almost "destinated" at the home QTH. It's really never a good idea to report yourself over a wide area repeater as a drunk driver.

Hearing conversations about how back in the good 'ol CB days, you used to own and use a "Galaxy" radio connected to a 400 watt CB linear to talk "skip."

Hearing conversations about how you used your modified 2 meter Icom ham radio to talk on the marine band to your dad one day while he was traveling on the lake in his boat. ...And then engage in a lengthy argument with someone who comes on the repeater to inform you it's illegal and you reply that it's perfectly legal to do that because you don't need any license to operate on marine band frequencies!

...Can I just shake my head and go home now?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA1SCI on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Try HF. HF is still alive.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K8MHZ:

Mark, Its just a thought, but if we followed your suggestions:

1. Do not talk about things that other people don't want to hear about.

2. Politics....no need to discuss them on a repeater. That is what simplex is for.

3. To a certain extent, religion.

We wouldn't have anything left to talk about except who makes the better rig and how one antenna mount is better than another. Of course, your last one:

Cussing, profanity and obscenity.

Of course there wouldn't be any of that--if your first three suggestions were to be implemented!!

Have a good day and 73!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
CJS,

Sure, I can see where following #1 to the letter may be a bit encumbering.

I think I may have not gotten my point across with that particular choice of words.

Perhaps a better choice would be to suggest for us to not engage in conversations where anyone listening on the repeater would feel unwelcome to join in.

Is this a better suggestion?
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by OBSERVER11 on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
DO WHAT??? CTCSS was a cause for decline???

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO McFLY.

The FCC killed repeaters, the cell phone helped.

IN the days before you were licensed, when major markets had repeaters every 15kHz, before the new sub-band and before every ham with a techy ticket could put up a backyard repeater, THOSE WERE THE DAYS.

Before repeater dereg, each repeater had to have a license (WR#XXX). The licensee/trustee had to do extensive research and submit it to the FCC. As a result, a repeater was a sizeable investment of time and effort.

Then came de-reg, and every little splinter group with a burr under the saddle about the least little thing, threw up a repeater, and like minded malcontents joined in.

Every little malcontent group chopped at the main group.

Pretty soon, the malcontent repeaters fell into disrepair and disuse, the main group, the core group, was still weakened, and most have not recovered. The malcontents have long ago moved on, leaving a small core group on the main system, and these are fadeing away as they fall into disuse and disrepair.

Want to rebuild the repeater network?? Start with the rules, tighten up the requirements to where only the serious will attempt to get into the repeater business.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N1RIK on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
CTCSS doesn't make a closed repeater. I opt. to run CTCSS on my repeater to A) Minimize co-channel interference seeing I do have a repeater 80 miles away that ducts into the area on occations. B) I have a commercial paging tower less than a mile away. I think the reason repeater usuage is down is because there's not as many new hams comming into the hobby as there was before. I think Radio Shack helped launch curosity into people that never thought about the hobby, seeing it's a mainstream store. When I was 12, I became interested in the hobby while checking out a HTX-100 radio that you can talk around the world with. Unfortunatly Radio Shack doesn't deal in Amateur radio anymore. Now I'm not saying they had the best stuff, but they did offer a lure, and had study manuals. Now I don't have tons of use on my repeater, and that's fine. It's a new upcomming project, and if it was needed in an emergency, it covers the local area very well with an HT. I'm planning on adding Echolink onto it to provide other interest to some local hams. I do prefer to get onto HF and VHF/UHF SSB to "enjoy the hobby". I use the repeaters for local chats and teaming up with locals. Repeater use has developed into a "backbone" of the hobby for me. The real hobby for me is DX and experiementing. With the cost of todays radios, shame on you if you don't buy a cheap $50 2m mobile with CTCSS. I see the Radio Shack HTX-212s which once went for $250, just kickin around for $40 - 60. I think the question shouldn't be about getting more people onto repeaters, but more people interested into amateur radio in general
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N1RIK on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.....Another thing, feel free to hop onto my machine if your in the Sandhills area in North Carolina. The frequency is 442.400 + with a PL of 179.9 hz. QTH is Southern Pines, NC. Coverage is from Pinebluff up to Sanford, NC and into western Harnett Co. 73s ~ Bill, n1rik


www.geocities.com/n1rik
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W4SK on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Lets make repeaters popular again."

Lets don't.

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W4CNG on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
We fixed the Emergency Net issue in Atlanta for North Fulton ARES, Repeater has no tone for access, but encode 203.5hz for Emergency. All of us tone squelch at that frequency so we do not hear the chit chat that goes on, but you have an Alert or Net, all of our receivers Open up. Yep some of the lower frequencies do not go thru the controller, but the higher one's do. It took me about 5 minutes to solve that issue and I'm not the repeater owner, but I have built many Super Machines in the Georgia area in the 70's and 80's. Yep the issue is cheap cell phones and the Internet. Now going Digital with ICOM, Alabama, Texas and California have the most functional on air ICOM D-Star systems. Many more coming as the next generation is coming out of the gate. And oh yes, you do have to get a new radio to participate, but that is the same as it always has been, want to play at the Pole Position, better get a Fast Good Car (Current Generation Radio Now Digital).

Steve W4CNG
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W4CNG on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
And oh yes, the other issue is Paper Repeaters. We have more than our share in the Metro Atlanta area and around the South East area co-ordinated by the SERA. They are working on the issue. If I get another Itch to put up my own Digital Repeater, I won't have a hard time of getting a frequency on 2 meters in Atlanta.

Steve W4CNG
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mark, I wasn't being critical, just having a bit of fun, also pointing out that that is about all anyone does talk about on the repeaters. To get serious for a minute, yes, I'd agree with your answer but bring it a little further--not to talk about anything you wouldn't talk about in front of your own kids. Take care!

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Want to rebuild the repeater network?? Start with the rules, tighten up the requirements to where only the serious will attempt to get into the repeater business."

That won't rebuild or rejuvenate anything, it will just hasten the demise. Just weed out the unused and dead machines and let the rest go on from there. Anyway, there's no practical way to rebuild a fad--that was the only thing that got so many repeaters going. The 'Oh yeah, I've GOT to have one of those!' people won't try setting one up anymore.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6PEH on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I don't see in Part 97.205 where a repeater owner can kick a user off. Where does it say that?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W5HTW on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The early to mid 1990s spawned the ARRL's recruitment effort of "you can keep in touch with family." It was a blatant invitation to use amateur radio as a cell phone, and with the no code Technician class license, whole families jumped on this new free cell phone bandwagon. For that reason, repeaters popped up everywhere, and many were occupied by the "Honey, can you bring home a loaf of bread?" crowd. Unfortunately, quite a few were also used by businesses, for cheap business applications. I heard construction dispatchers, computer companies, and the like, where usually the wife was in the office, with her trusty radio and ham ticket (no code Tech) and hubby was out there running service calls. By around 1999 much of this activity had been thinned out.

Also by that time cell phone family plans replaced cell phone ham plans by the droves. Many of the "I will only talk to my spouse" hams disappeared, fortunately.

But there were other reasons, too. During the 1990s, the other ARRL recruitment technique was "you can save the world and be really, really, hugely important." So we got the inrush of emcom types. A lot of these are still around, but they are not as active on the machines, as, unfortunately for them, there just aren't enough emergencies to give them something to do. So the radio, badge, light bar, uniform and Mace, all lie in the closet.

But it may be that the biggest reason of all was the recruitment efforts said "Now there is no code test, you can get into Amateur Radio!! Wow." So a few thousand would-have-been hams suddenly jumped onto that bandwagon. Many of them were CBers who had wanted to be hams for decades but the want wasn't bad enough to exert any effort to achieve that goal. And suddenly it was handed to them!

Unfortunately, they found themselves on VHF CB. The big DX stuff was as far out of reach, in fact further, than it had been on Channel 19 or 13 or whatever. Or freeband. Now they not only were limited to short range, channelised radios, but they had cotton pickin' rules to follow, by Jove. And they had to use real, live call signs. And they weren't working Sweden or England or shootin' any cotton pickin' skip at all. And chattin' with the same old dudes night after night, who were more "almost hams" just like they were.

I don't blame these people for leaving the repeaters. I don't blame them for being there in the first place, as it was a misleading recruitment program to promise them ham radio and give then VHF CB. They went back to shootin' skip on 27.845 or whatever, with 100 watts or more of SSB. Didn't need no stinkin' VHF CB.

When they left, many of the repeaters fell very much into disuse. Despite the fact there are still a few 'spousy cell phone hams" around, mostly the repeaters have been turned back over to those interested in ham radio, rather than wanna be cops, and skiplanders that didn't find any skip. A good many of the hams who may currently use a repeater are General class or above, and may be found more often on HF. They'll still get on the repeater now and then for a local QSO with a friend, but they aren't "stuck there," so when they feel like a big of DX or a real ragchew, they shut down the VHF/UHF and head for HF.

Probably the heyday of repeaters is gone. Unless we get another bug up our butts to promote all the world's FRSers into two meters. The use of repeaters now is generally (not everywhere, and not all machines) more ham-like, and less like cell phones, business radio and CB. Not all of that is gone, but the sincere ham has taken over, whether he is Tech Class or Extra or anywhere between.

So it's probably all for the good. Maybe the next influx into VHF will be interested in ham radio.

Ed
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I don't see in Part 97.205 where a repeater owner can kick a user off. Where does it say that?"

97.205 (e)

Read the last sentence.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by RADIOGUYR2 on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
There is the matter of exclusion, that is some hams being excluded from using a repeater--if you've done nothing wrong, that is if the repeater owner just wants you to stay off his machine, you can file for a hearing before the FCC. The repeater owner has to give his reasons for you not being allowed to use the machine. If he has no proof you used the machine illegally or against the set rules and you have proof he is just excluding you for personal reasons he may be forced to allow you to use the machine or be forced to give up the frequencies and or his rights to have the repeater. Yes, it is a long drawn out battle to do this, but it has been done successfully.
-----------------------------------------------------------

What a waist of time and hassle. Its not the repeater sub tones that are the reason that repeaters are not being used. No its the repeater owners ego itself. The control freks and ego boost they get from telling others what they can and can't do. When even the head of the enforcement section of the FCc allows control freak viloations to occure and give these people rights to a specific freq. Then most don't want to play the game and will go somewhere else.

Hams today are not really into paying for things anyway. They will use it if its their but, if they get asked to join a club or pay for it. GONE. No free rides with some. (says something about todays ham op)

Privacy is a big issue. Most don't like to make phone calls unless its scrambled so others won't hear what is being said. Cel phones are much more private and no waiting. Thefts have decreased too. As when most hams were leaving on vaction -- announced that they were somewhere away from the home QTH, it became open season on ripping them off. Thus, as the cel phone came in use the element of suprise increased for the bad guys. Most hams now don't have topics that others are interested in. Tech stuff is gone and they get real tired of the ham who just 5 minutes earlier called the other only to say -- whats new-- (I think they like to hear themselves on the radio after all that thing does have a transmitter which isn't used as much as the reciever what effecency it there in that? ) and then go into complaining about medical problems or whining on some subject that becomes a looser.

Time becomes another issue. You have to haul this big old brick around with you. If the repeater is busy with the whiners then you have to wait. Cell phone is small, quick and convient and in the end cheaper to own and use with better reliability and private comms'

Just my observations on the words of others.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W2XAB on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Most repeaters are BORING, the same individuals hogging the channel every day, or no one is even listening anymore.

I agree that there are too many underutilized repeaters, even in the major metro areas you can scan across the repeater bands and hear nothing except at the top opf the hour when many repeaters key up and identify with the time (and this activity is illegal).

There was a time when a large portion of the repeater activity was taken up with autopatches, now everyone uses their cellphone. IRLP and Echolink put some life back into repeaters for a while. D-Star is getting the techies interested again.

One thing that would help is if Repeater Coordinating bodies and the repeater operators would refarm the spectrum. We need a nationwide coordination plan, with specific channels used for wide-area coverage repeaters in each of the bands, local repeater channels, and a number of shared local channels that anyone can use without coordination. Channels also need to be allocated for the emerging digital voice systems (D-Star, P25, etc.).

Amateur radio is not just about talking on the radio, it is learning to utilize the technology, developing skills, and preparing for emergencies. Build yourself a backyard repeater system, interface it to a remote base station, play with the technology and don't spend too much time surfing the web and posting messages.

How I long for the days when clubs had physical club stations, you could get together and work on projects, operate some HF or other mode, and get out of the house (away from XLY and harmonics). About the only true club stations anymore seem to be at colleges and universities; there the members relax between classes or use it as a place to hang out.

If you travel around, put an HF rig in your vehicle, upgrade you license if necessary, and you will always have someone to chat with.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W4CNG on August 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
It's not channels, it's Frequencies....Duh.. What channel is 146.82, or 147.15??? Channels are only on 60 Meters..... I operate Frequencies, all of them licensed as a Two Word Ham, Amateur Extra.
Steve W4CNG
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4UUG on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"caused the demise of repeater useage?"

The only thing that caused the demise of repeater useage is the microphone and the hypersensitive and rude amateur operator.The know it all who assumes the worst in people and rarely give people the benefit of the doubt.The guy who gets on 3898 3975 and uses foul language then comes to the repeater talking about CB'ers or calling other amateurs CB'ers.That kind of behavior caused the demise of repeater useage.One amateur club NC had 250 members at $20 a year dues now they have 10 at $20 a year dues do the math they run off the money used to support the repeater now you hear very little traffic on it.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4UUG on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Now there is no code test, you can get into Amateur Radio!! Wow." So a few thousand would-have-been hams suddenly jumped onto that bandwagon. Many of them were CBers who had wanted to be hams for decades but the want wasn't bad enough to exert any effort to achieve that goal. And suddenly it was handed to them!"

1.ED No evidence exists that Morse proficiency is an indicator of a desirable,disciplined,motivated, or better qualified operator.

2.Most Amateurs who are Fined by FCC are General,Advanced and Extra on HF bands.

3.In fact In Hollingsworth's view, radio amateurs all too often are hypersensitive and rude,assume the worst in people,rarely give people the benefit of the doubt," Hollingsworth acknowledged that "certain problem operators" remain, but the real troublemakers are rarely the newcomers to Amateur Radio.
"If there's a downfall in Amateur Radio, it won't be caused by no-code Technicians or codeless anything else," he said. "It'll be caused by the microphone--no doubt in my mind."

Hey ED I think he was talking about Amateurs like YOU ! (hypersensitive and rude,assume the worst in people,rarely give people the benefit of the doubt.)

He advised his audience to ignore the troublesome HF operators and not give them the attention they crave by engaging them on the air.

"Now, think about it: If what you're hearing annoys you, or angers you or is stupid, use the 'stupid filter,' which is that big knob--that VFO that will take you somewhere else."

"It's the largest knob on the radio." He recommended moving to another frequency or even another band altogether.




 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
by K4UUG

>1.ED No evidence exists that Morse proficiency is an >indicator of a desirable,disciplined,motivated, or >better qualified operator.

I beg to differ. We've had two NCT's kicked off our local repeaters for use of foul language, and a third was forgiven when he aplogized. Nobody of any other class license has ever caused any problems. That's 3 for zero. 100% of the rule-offending hams in our area were licensed as NCT's. ZERO percent were know-code hams.

>2.Most Amateurs who are Fined by FCC are >General,Advanced and Extra on HF bands.

This is like saying the majority of accidents on highways are caused by cars. Simple math. There are more cars on the highway than other vehicles. There exist more General, Advanced, and Extra class hams than there are NCTs, therefor by numbers alone, percentages dictate that the majority of rule infractions are going to be caused by know-code hams. The fact that Official Observers mostly monitor HF and have little to do with repeaters probably helps in the final tally.

It's highly likely that another reason for lax FCC enforcement of repeater rule infractions is that the majority of infractions are taken care of on a local basis. Would you cuss someone out on your local repeater if you knew they lived close enough to you to show up on your doorstep and cross your T's and dot your I's? Why involve the FCC when you can take care of your problem in person? We've had a few problems that were taken care of by taking a person over to one side and pointing out the error of their ways. No need for FCC involvement, no need to embarrass the individual any further, just a quick and to-the-point "please don't do that any more". No FCC involvement. Problem solved.

-KR4WM
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W4KA on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I can remember in 1989 when I got my ticket. I loved this hobby and especially DXing I got my extra ticket in 7 months. Repeaters were very active and going to work I loved discussing the DX we hams had worked the night before. Those of us that worked evening shift would set up where we would meet after work to discuss DX,antennas, etc... There was always a QSO to be had. Now I can't buy a QSO. The repeaters are almost dead except for the nightly net. When I go thru my old QTH city, place of great repeater QSO's, I can't find a living soul. Our nightly net, Turnip truck net, encouraged many SWL's to get their licenses. The ultimate antenna was discussed,using an old 1950's radiator from school,hollow pipe, and special oil to make it radiate properly hi hi. This has been like a family member died. Bring back the educational QSO's, DX,antennas, and God bless KC4GMF,SK who gave me my nickname DXDAVE.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by SWDUNCAN on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
AB2MH, I think you hit it on the head. If you are not one of "group", you are not too welcome. I stay off repeaters, and stick with simplex on VHF and UHF while mobile, and mostly on HF at home. cheers, scott.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by OBSERVER11 on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
CHANNELS are exacly what they be.

The band has been CHANNELIZED, tell a new comer to go to "16-76" and watch the doe in the headlights look.

Now, these frequencies are known by the radio display, "6.52".

If you do not think these are channels, try dialing up 146.514.9 and call "CQ".
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by OBSERVER11 on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I am a field systems engineer, I travel by car all over the "Lower 48". I took the V/UHF rig out of the car many years ago. It is HF only for me. If you are not part of the local crowd, you will not get an answer on a repeater. This is not a regional problem, but across the USA.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AC7CW on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"We've had a few problems that were taken care of by taking a person over to one side and pointing out the error of their ways. No need for FCC involvement, no need to embarrass the individual any further, just a quick and to-the-point "please don't do that any more". No FCC involvement. Problem solved. "

Well, yes, most hams can be dealt with that way. I can be dealt with that way for that matter. The guys that finally made me shut the whole thing off were not signing. I could not converse with them other than on the repeater and they had no intentions of letting civilization continue on it's good course. My stomach gets queasy thinking about it. I am sticking with my plan of not getting back on the air until I can have a great little triangulation setup.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by AC7CW on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Quote from K8MHZ "Number one on my list is detailed descriptions of medical problems, especially any discussions about colons."

That is so funny. I heard a guy that was retired, could have gotten on the air any day of the week, talking about his colonoscopy and how wonderful the technology was, on Saturday, on 20 meters, jamming a DX station, running full power and a beam, talking to another retired guy. It was one of those "unforgettable ham radio moments"


Regarding emergency use repeaters why not use a more complex PL/DTMF system so that emergency transmissions will automaticlaly shut out regular PL-only traffic and regular PL traffic will not be heard by people that are monitoring for emergencies unless they volunteer to monitor all of the traffic? If there are lots of emergency service people using the repeater they should be able to work out shifts for monitoring, with redundancy even. If they can hit the repeater with their HT, base, and mobile rig they can monitor almost no matter what they are doing. If an emergency is reported via the usual PL-only method the monitoring person could change the repeater to the "emergency traffic only" mode, maybe by transmitting a DTMF that would wake up the radios of all the emergency volunteers.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB4YKJ on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Honestly I'm tired of all the self appointed "radio police" that will create something to point out to you because it's the first position of authority they have ever held. To many people will let you know real quick if you don't belong in their click.

We have an open repeater here in Greenvile, SC so at 1am I was experimenting with IRLP link. Only to have the link turned off in the middle of my conversation.

I will talk on distant repeaters to meet new people but as for local stuff simplex and my cell phone work just fine.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6PEH on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Part 97 205(e)

Only states that a repeater owner can limit who uses the repeater. Meaning it is lawful to discriminate against who uses and who does not. Meaning, a repeater owner can pull the plug on anyone at any time and be within their legal rights. However, it is stretching the legal meaning to say that it is unlawful to use a repeater that has been closed to you by the owner. The repeater owners have the right to use their amateur radio equipment (a repeater system) any way they see fit. But, they do not own that piece of the amateur spectrum and have no right to exclude that frequencies use by any licensed station.

I am sure that repeater owners would like to believe they own that piece of the spectrum and have supreme rights to it. But the only thing they own is their equipment, and they have the right to limit what that equipment is doing.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6PEH on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Part 97 205(e)

Only states that a repeater owner can limit who uses the repeater. Meaning it is lawful to discriminate against who uses and who does not. Meaning, a repeater owner can pull the plug on anyone at any time and be within their legal rights. However, it is stretching the legal meaning to say that it is unlawful to use a repeater that has been closed to you by the owner. The repeater owners have the right to use their amateur radio equipment (a repeater system) any way they see fit. But, they do not own that piece of the amateur spectrum and have no right to exclude that frequencies use by any licensed station.

I am sure that repeater owners would like to believe they own that piece of the spectrum and have supreme rights to it. But the only thing they own is their equipment, and they have the right to limit what that equipment is doing.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Part 97 205(e)

Only states that a repeater owner can limit who uses the repeater. Meaning it is lawful to discriminate against who uses and who does not. Meaning, a repeater owner can pull the plug on anyone at any time and be within their legal rights. However, it is stretching the legal meaning to say that it is unlawful to use a repeater that has been closed to you by the owner. The repeater owners have the right to use their amateur radio equipment (a repeater system) any way they see fit. But, they do not own that piece of the amateur spectrum and have no right to exclude that frequencies use by any licensed station."

Actually, the statement that the repeater owner can limit who uses the repeater says it IS lawful to differentiate who uses the repeater and who does not.

That is quite different from 'discrimination'.

For instance, if I buy a repeater and say only myself and my wife can use it I can indeed make that restriction and do so legally. To avoid the issue of frequency ownership, a tone would be placed upon the repeater so that others could still use the frequency and not be on the repeater. If they did so first, I would then have the legal requirement to NOT use MY repeater on that frequency until it was available.

There is a big difference between use of a repeater and use of a frequency. Reading your post I am not quite sure you understand that fully, likewise there may be others that do not. It is quite legal to have a repeater closed and not allow it's use by the general amateur public.

I doubt that any repeater owner would challenge the above as they would know the law and would also know the considerable investment needed. They absolutely should be able to dictate who uses their investment and who does not. Why should it be otherwise? (Which, by the way, it isn't)



 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WR8D on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K8MHZ, i'm sure you've read some of my past posts on the mess here with my machines. Let me clear all this up. Like you said, any repeater owner or trustee, has the right to restrict the use of his machine, and Riley will tell you for "any" reason. Myself i had to do that against some individuals here locally. I taped what was going on, date and time stamped the cd. Then i sent it in to him asking that he advise these people not to operate on my machines. He wrote them a very official letter, they had to sign to get it at the postoffice. He informed them to cease operations "period". Now if they had not behaved themselves after this, he was prepared to take even more action against them. This is very serious stuff. These were outlaws and i had to bring in the fcc to "take" my system back. I left them banned for about two and a half years then advised Riley that things were ok here and lifted the bann. Simple as that, and i've had no other problems. Any owner or trustee of any repeater has this right. Especially the trustee because its "his" call on the repeater and his ass on the line if things are not done according in amateur fashion. I'm not trying to start a spew fest here but this is the way that it is done and in my case it had to be done in this manner. The only reason there's problems on any repeater on any freq is the trustee and the owner "lets" it happen. Simple as that. If they'd pay more attention to activity, which they're supposed to be doing anyway, and take care of the business of seeing to it that part 97 is enforced all these machines across the country would be just one big wonderful network. 73, John WR8D
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB1ATA on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KR4WM says:

| This is like saying the majority of accidents on
| highways are caused by cars. Simple math. There are
| more cars on the highway than other vehicles. There
| exist more General, Advanced, and Extra class hams
| than there are NCTs, therefor by numbers alone,
| percentages dictate that the majority of rule
| infractions are going to be caused by know-code hams.

---

You realize that there are actually more Technician licencees than there are General, Advanced and Extra licencees combined, right?

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB1ATA on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K1CJS writes: ..."if you've done nothing wrong, that is if the repeater owner just wants you to stay off his machine, you can file for a hearing before the FCC. The repeater owner has to give his reasons for you not being allowed to use the machine. If he has no proof you used the machine illegally or against the set rules and you have proof he is just excluding you for personal reasons he may be forced to allow you to use the machine or be forced to give up the frequencies and or his rights to have the repeater."

-----

Actually, the FCC says:

"The Commission requires that repeaters be under the supervision of a control operator and not only expects, but requires, such control operators and licensees to be responsible for the proper operation of the repeater system. Control operators may take whatever steps are appropriate to ensure compliance with the repeater rules, including limiting the repeater use to certain users, converting the repeater to a closed repeater or taking it off the air entirely."

The banned user doesn't get a "hearing." "Stay off this repeater" means stay off the repeater. All the banned user is entitled to is a fine, normally in the range from $7,500 to $10,000, if they continue to use the repeater again after the control operator has asked them not to.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N1EY on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have the most stupid question.

Why can't all the repeaters in an area
adopt the same tone? It seems like that
some areas can do this. The coordinator
simply selects the tone. The adjacent
area selects a different tone.

All you would need is a tone map in
your trusty arrl handbook(which can be
out of date, too).

Instead, a few put their repeater on 67 hz
while others choose various tones in the
Boston area. Why couldn't all the repeaters
have the same tone for 50 miles from the
Massachusetts coastline? stations further
into 1-land could have a tone in their 50
mile space.

Why the heck has this no happened, yet?

The other big problem as I've noticed on
my 'local' machine is quality. It has
been down quite a bit. It has a very
very poor footprint. I've discovered
in a tune of the dial instead of just
calling up the local repeater that I am
able to hit a lot of repeaters far far
away.

I've been talking to some people occassionaly
on the K1CR repeater in Cranston, RI in
my driveway. A local repeater near me
can not provide reliable coverage. Cranston
is about 50 miles away from me. The local
repeater is only 12 miles away. There is a
another repeater actually closer to me, but
I never use it for the lack of users. It is
only 3 miles away. It barely covers with a
handheld. You can't drive to any place around
here and have usablility. The machine from 12
miles away is better. However, I can talk to
people on the Cranston machine all over the
place.

There is a combination of hams listening
and poor equipment. The repeater that is
three miles away has constant listeners to
nothing. It is sort of like ten meters. You
hear the beacons, but no is listening to you
call CQ. Afterall, 10 meters is dead, now.
I started figuring this out when at a hamfest
someone remarked to me about a comment that I
made to another ham on the air. Why the heck
didn't he break in?

When your club decides to have a repeater,
consider a few things. Why put its' antennae
up at 20 feet? Yes, I said antennae because some
outfits use more than one antenna. Nothing wrong
with it. Why put it up with out any battery
backup? Why run it with duplexers totally off.
You have some clubs that buy Stationmasters
that do not work for outrageous dollars, too.
Yet, they put it up at 25 feet versus 20 feet.

What happened to doing something well? You have
your repeater on the air. What do you next?
Perhaps have a club net on the air or something.
How many clubs actually do anything on their
repeater?

We have several repeaters over here that are
dead as a doornail. They should be taken off
the air for the energy savings.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N1EY said:

".....I've been talking to some people occassionally on the K1CR repeater in Cranston, RI in my driveway. A local repeater near me can not provide reliable coverage. Cranston is about 50 miles away from me. The local repeater is only 12 miles away......."

The reason for that Bill, is that the Cranston repeater is on one of the highest points (hills) in an area dozens of miles wide. I believe the antenna is actually mounted at around 150 feet above that high ground level. It isn't uncommon to be able to work that repeater from the Cape Cod canal to Hartford, CT., and as far north as lower New Hampshire. Because the antenna is so high, the coverage area is phenomenal!

As far as your original question, you try telling someone or some club that they HAVE TO standardize the CTCSS tone of their repeater with all the others in their area. I won't even say it, but guess what their responce will most likely be. :-)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KB1ATA says:

You realize that there are actually more Technician licencees than there are General, Advanced and Extra licencees combined, right?

Straight from http://www.ae7q.com/show/Stats.html
amateur radio statistics website:
Technician no-code licensees in existance: 304,640
Extra/Advanced/General combined: 333,278
Add Tech + (know-code) total: 379,151
Add Novices: 409,798

Total no-code: 304640
Total know-code: 409798

At what school did you study math? There are currently 105,158 more know-code hams than no-code hams. You should do some research before quoting someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Even leaving out the novices and tech plus's, there are still more know-code hams than no-code hams.

-KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
By KB1ATA:

".....The banned user doesn't get a "hearing." "Stay off this repeater" means stay off the repeater. All the banned user is entitled to is a fine, normally in the range from $7,500 to $10,000, if they continue to use the repeater again after the control operator has asked them not to."

Ernie, the regs aren't clear on this particular point because the regs also say that frequencies are shared among all amateur licensees of the class. Nobody can claim a frequency or make it private, all licensees may use any frequency their license class allows them to. A ham could be arbitrarily 'banned' from using a repeater, but if they've done nothing wrong or illegal--AND CAN PROVE IT--and want to take their case to the FCC, the repeater owner and or trustee could be in serious trouble, and they--not the banned user but the owner/trustee--could be paying the fine.

As I said, the rega aren't clear on this point--if anyone would want to explore it, I'd recommend they consult with the legal arm of the FCC. 73.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KB1ATA on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KR4WM:

Relax - don't blow a tube OM. Reading what you had typed in your previous post, you will see that you stated "There exist more General, Advanced, and Extra class hams than there are NCTs." If you can find your way to http://www.speroni.com/FCC/Licenses.html (the reference I used) you'll see 108201 Extra, 71411 Advanced, 132510 General and 320492 Technicians. The way I learned to add, that adds up to 312122 Extra + Advanced + General which compared to 320492 Technicians is, according to my understanding of number theory, "less." You did say "General, Advanced, and Extra" and "NCT," did you not?

BTW - You noted "You should do some research before quoting someone who doesn't know what they're talking about." Sorry OM, when I quoted you I didn't realize you didn't know what you were talking about. I just assumed you might have been using different figures than I was. My bad.

--

K1CJS - I'm thinking that since the FCC has consistently held (and fined accordingly) that if a repeater owner wants someone not to use a repeater, then that is considered essentially a part of the repeater's rules, and they (FCC) have fined accordingly; my inclination is that while the word of the law is certainly of value (Part 97,) perhaps the manner in which those who interpret and enforce the regulations ultimately carry that out (in this case the FCC and the above citation from their enforcement letters) is all that ultimately matters.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N0IU on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again...

Why?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WR8D on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
In these parts most of us just use a 100 tone on the input. The tone is setup that way so you don't have to be driving around and trying to look at that little display in those mobile rigs and switch the pll tone while you're driving and running out of the coverage of one machine and into the footprint of another one. The tone isn't there to keep anyone out. It just kills the pager interference and keeps the machine quite when not in use. Most of the machines even run a dvr track or have their controllers say pll tone is 100 for any visitors passing through. Some even say it in cw "for those not mentally challenged". hi hi. Some even run an id that includes information on a touch tone command any visitor can press in manually to disable the pll tone. "Ain't us hillbillys nice!" --... ...-- WR8D
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Nobody can claim a frequency or make it private, all licensees may use any frequency their license class allows them to."

No one is disputing that. We are not talking about preventing people from using a frequency, we are talking about preventing people from using a machine, a piece of personal property, a repeater.

As much as I hate all caps, I think this is the only way some folks will get it.....

A REPEATER IS NOT A FREQUENCY

A REPEATER IS NOT A FREQUENCY

A REPEATER IS NOT A FREQUENCY

If I tell you to stay off my repeater, I am not necessarily telling you to stay off a particular frequency.

The issue could get nasty if a person asked to stay off a repeater started using the repeater frequencies in simplex mode. Now the issue becomes whether or not intentional interference has occured.

What is it with some people? Why would you want to use a repeater that the owner or trustee has told you to stay off? Not only are there many repeaters available, there is also the ability to construct decent base stations that would rival the coverage of some repeaters. I think some people just have a juvenile need to cause trouble.

-----------------------

"Why can't all the repeaters in an area
adopt the same tone?"

This is done in Michigan and Wisconsin. In Western Michigan all the repeaters have a 94.8 tone (if they have one). Center of the state is 131.8 and the east side uses 100.0. This seems to work out quite well.

"The other big problem as I've noticed on
my 'local' machine is quality. It has
been down quite a bit. It has a very
very poor footprint. I've discovered
in a tune of the dial instead of just
calling up the local repeater that I am
able to hit a lot of repeaters far far
away."

This may be due to conditions. A very strong repeater in my county is being literally driven into to noise by other repeaters. The signal goes from 60 over to unreadable. The repeater is only a dozen miles from me and has an antenna 400 feet up. When this happens I can also work repeaters in Wisconsin and Illinois and make simplex contacts up to 150 miles away. This summer has been very humid and the tropo affects 2 meters in a way where too much propagation is not such a good thing.

"There is a combination of hams listening
and poor equipment. The repeater that is
three miles away has constant listeners to
nothing. It is sort of like ten meters. You
hear the beacons, but no is listening to you
call CQ."

You aren't really calling CQ on a repeater are you? Maybe that is why people aren't talking to you. Next time, try just stating your call sign and asking if anyone is around. Or address a specific question, such as "can anyone on the air tell me what roads are closed?" It has been my experience that more people will respond to such calls. We have a policy in Muskegon to answer all calls on the repeaters, even if only to acknowledge that someone is listening.

Before you give up on repeaters, come visit Western Michigan.

"Why run it with duplexers totally off."

Good question, provided that they have them and they are functional. Duplexers are VERY expensive. Using two antennae is a much cheaper way to get a repeater on the air.

"How many clubs actually do anything on their
repeater?"

The MAARC Repeater is home to the Sunday MCARES Net, a Trader's Net once a month following the MCARES Net and a Wednesday Packet Training Net. The repeater is also used to coordinate Fox Hunts and is a talk in base for the many picnics and meetings that the MAARC has.

The W8HVG linked system, a very busy repeater system, is home to the West Michigan Traffic Net.

All the non-linked repeaters are used for public service events such as the March of Dimes WalkAmerica, The Seaway Run, The MS-150, The Coast Guard Parade and MANY more such events.

After reading what goes on in other parts of the country I sure am glad to be a Ham in Western Michigan!





 
Lets not, it ain't worth all the aggravation again  
by WR8D on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Reading back up the thread its evident that there are always gonna be those that either don't want to go by amateur rules and "good amateur practice", and those that do want to abide by all rules and regulations applied to us hams. Everyone calm down and look at the situation of repeaters this way...a person or several people or it might even be a club gets together and puts a repeater on the air. There's a trustee with his or her call on that machine and they're responsible for everything said and all activity taking place on the air. "Big responsibility". There's control op's listening to and talking on the system both day and night..."this used to be fun". The outlaw group calls these folks "radio cops". They report to the trustee when he's not around if so and so is cussing in the middle of the night or calling his girlfriend and trying to have porno conversations etc on the phone patch. "This happened here". Any repeater has hours and hours of time invested just to get the thing on the air, much less keep it there. There's also hundreds of dollars spent and after all this the above mentioned control op's and trustee "trust you to use their investment" in good amater fashion and abide by all the rules so Riley does'nt have to call them one morning all bright and early and say we have a reported problem. He will call your sorry ass believe me! hi hi. We all can't get along anymore at all, most of us act like rednecks and all of us want to have it "our" way. This thread is just another subject for us all to get into a bitching fest, simple as that. I am one of three that own a two meter repeater system, i've been called prick, repeater boss, elite extra class ****, i could write a book on the names alone. Years and years of time, honestly thousands of dollars spent, and yeah you can call me all those names but you'll act like an amateur operator and not a numb nut cber when you're taking on anything i'm responsible for. No ego involved or any of this other crap i see up the thread. Its just good amateur practice and part 97, seems so few are aware, or even have respect for each other or even a thought that a child might be listening on a scanner to what they're saying on the air. 73 John
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KB1ATA, your mistake was you lumped the no-code techs in with the know-code techs. We were discussing legal infractions based on know-code vs. no-code.

As a piece of history- some people in this day and age may still not be aware of it, you just never know:

For 5 WPM (Element 1) and General written test (Element 3) credit, persons who took a 50-question Technician/General written test before March 21, 1987 receive grandfather Technician licensees credit.

I'm not sure, but I believe that if they meet this criteria they are eligible for automatic upgrade to General class license. See your local VE team for further info.

There are other "special" dates involved as well, see http://www.arrl.org/arrlvec/grandfather.html for further information.

I didn't blow a gasket- just trying to set you straight so you don't mis-inform others.

-KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1CJS on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mark,

Why are you getting so gung-ho upset? Nobody said a repeater IS a frequency, but if you take it to a logical conclusion, a repeater OCCUPIES a frequency pair. Lets say that Joe Shmoe owns a repeater that uses frequency 146.123 for an output. He just doesn't like me so he issues me instruction to stay off his machine--even though I've done nothing wrong. If I don't use his repeater, but use that frequency 146.123 as a simplex frequency and it interferes with his machine, he can still complain that I'm interfering with the operation of his repeater.

Do you see the grey area here??? For all intents amd purposes a repeater "owns" a frequency pair even if the regs refuse to treat it that way. That is all that I'm referring to.

That is what my earlier post here was referring to as well, along with an acquaintance who took a repeater trustee on for being banned for no good reason--and won his case. 73.
 
RE: Lets not, it ain't worth all the aggravation a  
by K8MHZ on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
A person or group that has a repeater is under no obligation whatsoever to make that repeater available for any ham to use.

What seems to have happened is that the majority of repeater owners have been good enough to us to allow for open use. This has established a norm that is now perceived by some as a requirement, which it is not and never has been.

Any of us that use a repeater we do not own or pay for are guests on a repeater owned by a very considerate person or group. They have given the amateur public a gift, one that seems to be taken for granted by some, indeed perhaps many.

To make any suggestion that due to the generosity of these fine folks all that own repeaters should be required to make such a donation is, to me, very self centered, childish and indicates a lack of understanding of not only the law, but the importance of the position of the repeater owners and trustees.

The repeaters are not public property. They were not funded by taxpayer dollars. They are the personal properties of their respective owners. Period. Those owners have every right to decide who uses them. Anyone using a repeater against the owners will are committing an act very similar to trespassing. To make it worse, some use the property of others to go on and violate FCC rules, offend listeners and taint the repeater with unwanted antics.

If there were a provision that all repeaters HAD to be open I guarantee you there would be only a fraction of the repeaters there are now, if any at all. The rules the way they are now are fair, effective and need not be changed or challenged.
 
RE: Lets not, it ain't worth all the aggravation a  
by N6PEH on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I would be very interested to see any incident, where an amateur was fined by the FCC for the sole reason, that they were using a closed repeater or an open repeater that they were asked not to use, or any variation there of.

The rule does not state that it is unlawful to use a repeater without the owners permission. For instance, the GMRS rules state that a user of a repeater must do so only with the permission of its owner. It is very clearly stated so.

The law does allow the amateur repeater owner to DISCRIMINATE, yes, discriminate who can and cannot use their equipment.

However, bear in mind, it is perfectly legal to close the window or door on your house, but that does not make the wind or rain an illegal action.

Lastly, I am talking about the letter of the law. Not what is morally right or good amateur practice. The two do not always co-exist. So you guys that want to go off on the moral aspect, I'll say right here and now, YOU'RE RIGHT, no arguement. But, legally there exist a fair arguement, that the FCC (the law) will not be able to do to much for you in this regard.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4UUG on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>BY K4UUG TO ED 1.ED No evidence exists that Morse proficiency is an >indicator of a desirable,disciplined,motivated, or >better qualified operator.

BY KR4WM I beg to differ. We've had two NCT's kicked off our local repeaters for use of foul language, and a third was forgiven when he aplogized. Nobody of any other class license has ever caused any problems. That's 3 for zero. 100% of the rule-offending hams in our area were licensed as NCT's. ZERO percent were know-code hams.

FCC HOLLINGSWORTH "If there's a downfall in Amateur Radio, it won't be caused by no-code Technicians or codeless anything else," he said. "It'll be caused by the microphone--no doubt in my mind."
KR4WM In fact In Hollingsworth's view, radio amateurs all too often are hypersensitive and rude,assume the worst in people,rarely give people the benefit of the doubt," Hollingsworth acknowledged that "certain problem operators" remain, but the real troublemakers are rarely the " newcomers " to Amateur Radio.

KR4WM I want to make a few points crystal clear:

1. I am not opposed to manual Morse code operation. But Morse code is just another mode and should not be afforded any special priority over others. It is available to those who wish to use it. Morse proficiency should not be required for those who do not wish to use the mode.

2. Manual radiotelegraphy communications has been superceded by more modern, reliable, accurate, faster and efficient means of communication.

3. Requiring manual telegraphy proficiency is not compatible with the radio amateur's mandated objective of contributing to the advancement of the radio art.

4. No evidence exists that Morse proficiency is an indicator of a desirable,motivated or better qualified operator.

5. The Morse code requirement serves as an advancement barrier to many otherwise qualified individuals.

6. The value of Morse code communications in the Amateur Service is primarily recreational in nature and manual telegraphy proficiency should no longer be a compulsory licensing requirement for any class of Amateur Radio license.

7. The most challenging problem is our attitude towards newcomers and our focus on the mode of CW as the defining characteristic of Amateur Radio. If you do not operate the mode CW or if you are not proficient with the CW mode, then you are not a real ham radio operator.This is our most challenging problem our attitude towards change. If we can overcome this hurdle, promoting Amateur Radio for the future is the easy part. (ARRL Past President, Rod Stafford, W6ROD, wrote of similar issues - I encourage you to read it.)

8. I do not have good ideas on how to change the mode attitudes. I wish I did because I believe the mode attitude is the Achilles Heel of the Amateur Radio Hobby.Changing our attitude towards change and new comers is a key part of growing Amateur radio in the future.

9. The Majority of Amateurs and VECs support the FCC offer to remove cw as a requirement for any class operator,the new blood will bring more technical knowledge into the hobby.

10 .The FCC will remove CW as a requirement for any class operator very soon!

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I would be very interested to see any incident, where an amateur was fined by the FCC for the sole reason, that they were using a closed repeater or an open repeater that they were asked not to use, or any variation there of."

I can't personally attest to any such incident. Perhaps one of the repeater owners can address this better. I, too, would be interested.

"The rule does not state that it is unlawful to use a repeater without the owners permission. For instance, the GMRS rules state that a user of a repeater must do so only with the permission of its owner. It is very clearly stated so."

I see that the rule does indeed mean just that. What would be the intent of that sentence if not? Perhaps the GMRS rule is better written, I don't know, but what else would be meant by "Limiting the use of a repeater to only certain user stations is permissible."?

"However, bear in mind, it is perfectly legal to close the window or door on your house, but that does not make the wind or rain an illegal action."

I fail to see the analogy here. We are talking about a person using another person's radio against their will. Actually two radios.

"Lastly, I am talking about the letter of the law. Not what is morally right or good amateur practice. The two do not always co-exist."

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. Bear in mind that if an operator follows Part 97 to the letter they will be the worst operator allowable by law. Part 97 is an absolute minimum. It is the border between terrible operation and illegal operation.

"But, legally there exist a fair arguement, that the FCC (the law) will not be able to do to much for you in this regard."

Well, I am not so sure about that. Let me throw the ball back in your court. Have you ever heard of an incident where someone was not wanted on a repeater the the FCC told the repeater owner they must allow them on? I would be very interested in hearing about that as well.

Chris,

The example you pose as stated with no further info does indeed sound like it is a grey area. In fact, it is not. First, you did not mention whether or not the repeater was coordinated. Coordinated repeaters are treated differently than non-coordinated repeaters. If the repeater was non-coordinated you would be able to put up your own repeater on that frequency but must share it with the other non-coordinated repeater. If there is a coordinated repeater on that frequency, it has precedence.

Operating simplex on a frequency used by a repeater and interfering with it's use is illegal. To determine if the operation was to be considered intentional interference or not, intent must be established. What would be the intent of operating simplex on a frequency that is part of a widely published and accepted band-plan on the same frequency that a repeater you just got kicked off uses? Especially when there are so many available simplex frequencies.

Intent would be much harder to prove if there was so much traffic on simplex frequencies that one would have to use a repeater frequency to communicate, but that is just not the case.

As for the ownership of a frequency pair, that also is not the case, even with coordinated repeaters. I can still use my radios, even in the repeater band-plan areas, at low power to communicate with another station so long as I do not interfere with the operation of the repeater. I do it all the time. For instance I may see someone I know a couple cars ahead of me that always monitors our coordinated repeater. It is quite legal for me to turn the power all the way down and call him on the output of the repeater using simplex mode. While doing so I just tell him that I am simplex on the output and request to be answered simplex on the output. We then QSY to a simplex frequency. We have just used one half of a frequency pair used by a coordinated repeater while not using the repeater and also not interfering with it. We could have done so quite legally even if one or both of use were not allowed to use the repeater. This illustrates the fact that even a coordinated repeater does not own a frequency, and those frequencies can be used, albeit with some skill and knowledge of the rules, by others. I could also put up a low power repeater to cover an area our coordinated repeater was very weak in with the same frequency pair....so long as I do not interfere with the coordinated repeater. Why would one do something like this? One reason would be to be able to use radios programmed with the coordinated repeater pair for an event or for training.

I guess I get so frustrated because I see no grey area here and see that many others do. It seems that the difference between frequency ownership and repeater ownership are foggy, if not grey, to some, but not to me.

73 (You remind me of another ham friend of mine named Chris....we get into some pretty lengthy discussions, sorry about being so verbose.)

Mark K8MHZ






 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N8QBY on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
This isn't a code/no-code article but just wanted to add: " No evidence exists that Morse proficiency is an >indicator of a desirable,disciplined,motivated, or >better qualified operator." Unfortunately, there are many oldtimer's, and others out there that have this narrow train of thought. Their thought is that there can't possibly be a no-code tech out there that can add something of use to the hobby. They seem to assume that they, (no-code tech's), just can't be a knowledgeable member of the ham radio society. After all, they are all cb'ers right? Well, just consider the source. They are for the most part, old, cantankerous, narrow-minded souls that don't like change. Well, this is 2006.....change can be good for all. A win-win situation. Do I use cw? Sure but I don't feel the need to degrade someone for not knowing it. Sometimes I think CW stands for, "Constant Whining". Sorry for going off topic but I was just responding to one of the recent posters. 73 to all... Pat N8QBY
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KR4WM I want to make a few points crystal clear:

1. I am not opposed to manual Morse code operation. But Morse code is just another mode and should not be afforded any special priority over others. It is available to those who wish to use it. Morse proficiency should not be required for those who do not wish to use the mode.

I agree with this point. No ham operator deserves any special priority over another. They do deserve extra frequency permissions, but not priority.

2. Manual radiotelegraphy communications has been superceded by more modern, reliable, accurate, faster and efficient means of communication.

I guess you didn't watch the video on late-night TV where two high speed CW ops whupped the butt of a cell phone text-messenger.

3. Requiring manual telegraphy proficiency is not compatible with the radio amateur's mandated objective of contributing to the advancement of the radio art.

I believe it is. Keeping Morse as a barrier improves the pool of operators by preventing those who are not interested in working hard to obtain a license. They want a gimme. They got a gimme with the NCT license class. An inch wasn't good enough, now they want the whole yardstick. I say let 'em work for it like the rest of us had to. Giving someone something without making them work for it is the reason society is in such terrible shape these days. Why should the amateur radio hobby suffer because the remainder of society suffers?

4. No evidence exists that Morse proficiency is an indicator of a desirable,motivated or better qualified operator.

I provided you evidence. Would you like the offending station's callsigns?

5. The Morse code requirement serves as an advancement barrier to many otherwise qualified individuals.

No, it serves as an advancement barrier to those who are not interested enough in the hobby to persue it in ernest. It did not prevent anyone who WANTED to become an amateur radio operator bad enough to WORK for their ticket today any more so than it did 50 years ago. That's a lame excuse for wanting to do away with Morse as a requirement.

6. The value of Morse code communications in the Amateur Service is primarily recreational in nature and manual telegraphy proficiency should no longer be a compulsory licensing requirement for any class of Amateur Radio license.

While I agree that Morse is primarily recreational in nature, it provides the barrier against those "flash in the pan" hams who aren't interested in working for thier license. I respectfully disagree that it should no longer be compulsory.

7. The most challenging problem is our attitude towards newcomers and our focus on the mode of CW as the defining characteristic of Amateur Radio. If you do not operate the mode CW or if you are not proficient with the CW mode, then you are not a real ham radio operator.This is our most challenging problem our attitude towards change. If we can overcome this hurdle, promoting Amateur Radio for the future is the easy part. (ARRL Past President, Rod Stafford, W6ROD, wrote of similar issues - I encourage you to read it.)

It's not a problem. It's our identity. Take it away and ham radio isn't ham radio any longer. Morse is what identifies us as a fraternity and binds us together as a service. Without CW, it really is just CB.

8. I do not have good ideas on how to change the mode attitudes. I wish I did because I believe the mode attitude is the Achilles Heel of the Amateur Radio Hobby.Changing our attitude towards change and new comers is a key part of growing Amateur radio in the future.

Then I suppose I am a molecule of the glue that holds the Achilles tendon to the bone. Pop that glue, and the achilles tendon will just flop around, and Achilles will fall over.

9. The Majority of Amateurs and VECs support the FCC offer to remove cw as a requirement for any class operator,the new blood will bring more technical knowledge into the hobby.

Only because it is "popular" and "in vogue". They think they're scaring people away by holding on to it, and perhaps they are. So?

10 .The FCC will remove CW as a requirement for any class operator very soon!

It's very lamentable, and I have nothing else to say about it.

-KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N8QBY: Unfortunately, there are many oldtimer's, and others out there that have this narrow train of thought. Their thought is that there can't possibly be a no-code tech out there that can add something of use to the hobby. They seem to assume that they, (no-code tech's), just can't be a knowledgeable member of the ham radio society. After all, they are all cb'ers right? Well, just consider the source. They are for the most part, old, cantankerous, narrow-minded souls that don't like change.

I'm not an old timer. I got my ticket about one month before they did away with CW as a requirement. I'm 47, and if that makes me an "old timer", then I guess I am. I never said that no-coders had nothing to contribute to the hobby. I do feel that privileges should be earned, and that learning CW is part of, and should remain part of, the earning (and learning) process that it takes to become a full-privileged amateur radio operator. I think it's great that there is a no-code license, and I'm very pleased that we have such a large group of individuals who chose to become a part of our hobby. I just wish that they would stop waiting for a "gimme" and stop whining about having to learn Morse in order to advance in the hobby. They don't understand that they denigrate the hobby and all that others have worked for when (and if) they "win" the battle for a full-privileged HF no-code license. CW doesn't stand for "constant whining", it stand for I "Can Win" if I apply myself! -KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6PEH on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K8MHZ

"I see that the rule does indeed mean just that. What would be the intent of that sentence if not? Perhaps the GMRS rule is better written, I don't know, but what else would be meant by "Limiting the use of a repeater to only certain user stations is permissible."?

How do you see that the rule does indeed say it is unlawful for someone to use a repeater without the owners permission? I think there lies the problem, people like to read in meaning that isn't there.

"However, bear in mind, it is perfectly legal to close the window or door on your house, but that does not make the wind or rain an illegal action."

I fail to see the analogy here. We are talking about a person using another person's radio against their will. Actually two radios.

Then your mind must not be open, Try hard to see the analogy grass hopper. The frequency that the repeater is using is the house, the rain or the wind is the use of those frequencies. They can always close the door if someone is using their stuff against their will.

"Well, I am not so sure about that. Let me throw the ball back in your court. Have you ever heard of an incident where someone was not wanted on a repeater the the FCC told the repeater owner they must allow them on? I would be very interested in hearing about that as well."

Mark, please, you're arguing in circles. You will not hear of such an incident, because this is exactly what the law is intended for. The repeater owner can tell anyone not to use their repeater and not be in violation of some ACLU or civil rights, or any other beef.

You know what's worse than owning a repeater that has a bunch of people always using it, breaking in on qso's, and being wild and crazy?

A repeater that no one uses, and there's lots of them.

Lighten up America! Not you Mark, you're cool.

 
Lets straighten out the regs first!  
by K1CJS on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
OK, Mark, this grey area is indeed a topic that has come up again and again in various discussions, both here and elsewhere. To answer your questions, lets assume the repeater is coordinated and is an open repeater. You then said: "Operating simplex on a frequency used by a repeater and interfering with it's use is illegal."

In fact, it isn't--it is considered 'against good amateur practice' and therefore is forbidden and subject to possible legal action if continued.

You went on: "What would be the intent of operating simplex on a (repeater output) frequency....."

Say it is for the purpose you stated, to call a friend and ask him to go to simplex.

You then said:
"It is quite legal for me to turn the power all the way down and call him on the output of the repeater using simplex mode. While doing so I just tell him that I am simplex on the output and request to be answered simplex on the output. We then QSY to a simplex frequency. We have just used one half of a frequency pair used by a coordinated repeater while not using the repeater and also not interfering with it."

You may think so, but consider this: Another user is also close by and hears the exchange. He complains to the trustee who then accuses you of interference. Your example just became 'bad amateur practice' for which you could get a warning from an observer--but it still isn't illegal unless you keep doing it after you are warned not to.

An open repeater is just that--open. An owner or a trustee acknowledges that when his machine is coordinated unless he specifically states the repeater is closed.

If the repeater is designated a closed machine, any operation by any ham not on the membership list of the machine on the input or output frequencies of the machine in the area served by that machine is bad amateur practice and is subject to legal action--because of the closed status of the machine. It doesn't matter if the machine is triggered to transmit or not.

If the repeater is an open machine, anyone who blatantly abuses the privilege of using the machine can be banned and prosecuted--if the proof of the accusations are given. If the machine owner/trustee just 'doesn't like' someone and arbitrarily bans them, they'll have a hard time prosecuting them unless they can prove abuse or illegal activity. Anyone who says 'I just don't like the guy I banned' would be laughed out of court, because the repeater is considered 'open'. It has happened. I've been asked not to bring up identification by my friend, so I can't actually say who and where.

Mark, I do see your point--the repeater owner should have the final say on who is allowed on his machine. He built it and foots the bills for it. If he 'opens' the machine for everybody to use, however, EVERYBODY can use it. If he wants to 'pick and choose who can use the machine he should have designated the machine 'closed'.

If there is abuse or illegal activity, he can shut the machine down and ban the abuser--but he better have his proof if he wants to prosecute the guy and make it stick. Proof of abuse or illegal activity is a good reason to ban someone from a repeater--'I don't like the person' is not.

Sorry for being so long-winded, Mark, but it was necessary to present my points. 73!

Not the other Chris. ;-)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Nils,

Permission can be either expressed or implied. Permission that is not granted directly but is still acceptable is implied. No grey area, just a difference in application.

"Then your mind must not be open, Try hard to see the analogy grass hopper. The frequency that the repeater is using is the house, the rain or the wind is the use of those frequencies. They can always close the door if someone is using their stuff against their will."

Well, I'm still lost on that one. My martial arts training was Tae Kwon Do and we looked at Kung Fu as TV stuff, especially the "Grasshopper you must snatch the pebble from my hand" regime and it's following made so popular by a TV show. Sorry, but humans with a conscience and the rain and the wind will always be distinctly different entities to me. This is a matter of logic, Captain Kirk, not a matter of open mindedness nor an inaccurately perceived lack thereof.

"Mark, please, you're arguing in circles. You will not hear of such an incident, because this is exactly what the law is intended for. The repeater owner can tell anyone not to use their repeater and not be in violation of some ACLU or civil rights, or any other beef."

Isn't that what I have been saying all along? At least as far as the last sentence goes?

"You know what's worse than owning a repeater that has a bunch of people always using it, breaking in on qso's, and being wild and crazy?

"A repeater that no one uses, and there's lots of them."

While I do not necessarily agree that it is worse (I am a quality, not quantity kind of person) I do agree that there are lots of repeaters that no one uses. So why on God's green Earth is there an issue being raised about repeater owner's having the right to be exclusive when there are lots of other repeaters to use?....and, Heaven forbid, there is also simplex.

Chris,

"Operating simplex on a frequency used by a repeater and interfering with it's use is illegal."

"In fact, it isn't--it is considered 'against good amateur practice' and therefore is forbidden and subject to possible legal action if continued."

Please refer to 97.101 (a) and the more direct application of 97.101 (d) which deals with intentional interference. Not only is interference illegal, so is not operating using good amateur practice.

"You may think so, but consider this: Another user is also close by and hears the exchange. He complains to the trustee who then accuses you of interference. Your example just became 'bad amateur practice' for which you could get a warning from an observer--but it still isn't illegal unless you keep doing it after you are warned not to."

There must be a signal present to interfere with. As you have vigorously stated a trustee does not own a frequency. In the example stated, no interference was made, so neither could be witnessed nor recorded. So what if I get something from an OO? They are NOT part of enforcement and many times are simply in error. In the example I gave we did use good amateur practice by not tying up a repeater. We could have also stayed on that frequency (so long as there was no interference to any of the repeater's transmissions) with the purpose of monitoring it. This technique requires some skill as pulling it off without interference will not happen accidentally. This is a form of advancing the radio art and we are charged to do so in section 97.1.

"If the repeater is an open machine, anyone who blatantly abuses the privilege of using the machine can be banned and prosecuted--if the proof of the accusations are given. If the machine owner/trustee just 'doesn't like' someone and arbitrarily bans them, they'll have a hard time prosecuting them unless they can prove abuse or illegal activity. Anyone who says 'I just don't like the guy I banned' would be laughed out of court, because the repeater is considered 'open'. It has happened. I've been asked not to bring up identification by my friend, so I can't actually say who and where.

"Mark, I do see your point--the repeater owner should have the final say on who is allowed on his machine. He built it and foots the bills for it. If he 'opens' the machine for everybody to use, however, EVERYBODY can use it. If he wants to 'pick and choose who can use the machine he should have designated the machine 'closed'."

I do agree that the status of an open repeater should be an honest status. If arbitrary restrictions are imposed the repeater by definition becomes closed. All we have are open repeaters around here but I do see the reasons for having closed repeaters and I respect the owners and would not consider using them against their will.

"If there is abuse or illegal activity, he can shut the machine down and ban the abuser--but he better have his proof if he wants to prosecute the guy and make it stick. Proof of abuse or illegal activity is a good reason to ban someone from a repeater--'I don't like the person' is not."

I really don't think the desired outcome is prosecution. The repeater owners just want control over their investment. Once compliance is achieved I think you will find the battle to be over.

As I said, all of our repeaters are open. If any of you are ever in Western Michigan give me a call on the Muskegon '94 or on one of the machines on the W8HVG linked system (www.w8hvg.org). A real QSO would be great!

73,

Mark K8MHZ















 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6TZ on August 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
ONE BIG REASON IS THE COMPLICATED TWO METER RIGS !!

1. A TRAVELING HAM HAS TO TAKE THE MANUAL WITH HIM - LOTS OF LUCK THERE.

2. THE MANUAL TAKES FOREVER TO DIG THROUGH TO FIGURE HOW TO SET A NEW FREQUENCY AND PL INTO IT.

3. AND WITH ALL THE BUTTONS AND CONTROLS, IT GETS SCREWED UP.

SO ONE TRIP WITH THE "SUPER RIG - HANDHELD OR MOBILE" AND THE THING REMAINS IN THE DRAWER AT HOME.

SO, UNLESS YOU ARE A SUPER-NERD WHO LOVES ALL OF THAT CRAP ON THE RIGS AND WANTS TO MAKE THAT YOUR LIFE SPECIALTY, THE AVERAGE WELL ROUNDED PERSON IS OUT OF LUCK TO GET A RIG THAT HAS WHAT HE REALLY NEEDS.

WHAT DO WE REALLY NEED TO TALK WITH EACH OTHER ON TWO METERS ?

FREQUENCY , OFFSET , PL , ABOUT 10 MEMORIES , TWO POWER LEVELS - HIGH AND 1/2WATT , AND LARGE BUTTONS AND LARGE READOUT.

I BET THEY WOULD SELL A BUNCH OF THEM, AND THE XYL COULD USE IT ALSO.....EVER WONDER WHERE ALL THOSE XYL TECHS FROM THE 80s and 90s WENT? THEY COULDN'T BE BOTHERED WITH ALL THE CRAP ON THESE RIGS.

AND YES, I AGREE THAT PL IS USED WAY TOO MUCH WHERE IT IS NOT NEEDED. AND IT SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE REPEATER I.D. FOR SURE.

HAL, N6TZ
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N6TZ, have you looked at the Alinco brand? Their basic radios sound like what you're looking for. I was licensed in 1991, and my first FM rig was a DR-599. It's still in great shape having survived being in several cars and trucks, and in two auto accidents. It's now used daily by another ham (I gave it to him after upgrading to a DR-635). Alinco's monoband rigs are every bit as tough and they're simple to operate. -KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hal,

I disagree that today's rigs and their complexity are the reason people don't use repeaters. As for too many buttons, please do us a favor and push the one on your keyboard that is marked "Caps Lock".

Typing in all caps is the Internet equivalent of yelling at some one.

One thing the complexity of 2 meter rigs does is allow the programming of practically every repeater pair used. When in a place where you are looking for repeater action, scan those pairs. When you get a hit, do a tone scan and you should be all set.

There is, of course, also the Repeater Directory.

I do agree that programming into a memory while driving can be rough. It is not needed as most rigs allow direct keypad entry while in VFO mode.

If you are lucky enough to have an IC-2100 there is one button access from the mic for most of the features. It is great to be able to go from duplex to simplex by pushing one clearly labeled button.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KA8OCN on August 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I think its a few things, first of all there is more fun electronic stuff to play with out there than ever before. Ham Radio is just one part of it now.

I also know in my life the cell phone has taken the time I used to have in the mobile to play Ham Radio, there is always a business call or person call comming in.

Also I think people are working more than before and I know at least with me there are always never cut opff from work.

I know I purchased a nice used Yaesu dual band rig a couple years ago and put ot a call when I would leave work (20 min to home) and I would do that one 2 repeaters and did not get any offers. In our area there is a group of people using simplex.

I my self are working on getting all the stuff together to run some 60 meters mobile, I have made a lot of contacts on there and even though I was a base most of the people I talked with were mobiles. Hamstick and with the way its set up I dont think I will need a tuner.

73's Del
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
PL is definitely a part of the decline. Those rigs that have PL have the switching of it buried so deep in the menus it is impossible to safely change when you are on the road.

There are still a heckuvva lot of non-PL rigs out there. As for "sell your non-PL rig" I have 6 2m rigs, for various purposes - and only 2 have PL. Why should I give up perfectly good rigs (one near a kilobuck in value and no new replacement on the market and the PL module is no longer available) for no real benefit other than other people have it?

The most popular, and well used repeaters have no PL. That tells you something.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"The most popular, and well used repeaters have no PL. That tells you something."

Like they are far from other repeaters with the same frequency?

How long has it been since VHF rigs did not come standard with PL tones?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular? Now Comes Digital  
by W4CNG on August 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The FCC has just ruled that the D-Star System is NOT a repeater but a Store and Forward system (read that packet). That makes it exempt from Co-Ordination for the Repeater Frequencies and can be set-up on all of the other not restricted frequencies on all bands. Go read on the ICOM D-Star Board link below and all of the replies and the real email.

http://www.icomamerica.com/support/forums/tm.asp?m=2803

Hmmm. Lots now to think about out there in radio land especially where the "Paper Repeaters" are and those other Kerchunk problems, cause if your ID is not programmed, you are out of luck.

Steve W4CNG

 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6ATF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
PLs make repeaters less painful to listen to (in addition to cavities). So they are a "good thing".

I use autopatches - not cellphones. Then again, I have no business or top secrecy to conduct. Autopatched repeaters have better coverage and better sound quality. And I don't have to worry about health problems with a 2 meter or 70 cm signal either.

I wish there were more autopatches on repeaters out there.

By the way, does anyone know how to connect a CSI interconnect to a TM-V7A?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4UUG on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KR4WM
You are beating a dead horse.CW will be dropped as a requirement for any class amateur license the FCC and the majority of amateurs disagree with you.That dog just wont hunt son!your wrong!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4UUG on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KR4WM you need mental health help with your Narcissistic Personality Disorder!
I have listened to you on the air from time to time.

I WILL SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU.

The Diagnostic Criteria for a Narcissistic Personality Disorder are the following. from listening to you on the air Ive seen all nine!
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1.)has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

2.)is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

3.)believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people(or institutions) ie the Photo with David Beasley outsted governor of South Carolina in QRZ Profile.

4.)requires excessive admiration

5.)has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

6.)is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

7.)lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

8.)is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

9.)shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.


TAKE THE MEDS THEY WORK!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K4UUG- Yeah, I see where you copied the No Code International credo onto your personal page here. You can't speak knowledgeably about the issue, so attack my character. Smooth move. By the way, "you're" is the contraction for YOU ARE, "your" is used to describe the possession of something. Learn to differentiate. I respect your military service to our country, but I must respectfully disagree with NCI's position. I suppose next you'll tell me the Army put rank on your uniform before you earned it? -KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""The most popular, and well used repeaters have no PL. That tells you something."

Like they are far from other repeaters with the same frequency"

Some are. The FACT that they are easier to use and open to travelers is more revelant.

"How long has it been since VHF rigs did not come standard with PL tones?"

Not all that long, actually, considering the useful life of a good rig.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"PLs make repeaters less painful to listen to (in addition to cavities). So they are a "good thing". "

Disagree. Our repeaters are are definitely not "painful to listen to" because we (mostly...) have good ops. Addition of a barrier to use (PL) would have no effect.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
UUG,

I think you are being irrationally critical of KR4WM. If you don't like the way he operates on the air, fine, but this forum is not the place to bring it up. You don't see precisely eye to eye on CW....big deal. No need to become a self-certified psychotherapist and post a page long diagnosis, especially when it's intent was to criticize.

It takes much effort for some to not turn any thread into a CW issue. I sure thought a thread on VHF/UHF FM repeaters would be one of the few where CW would not apply to the subject.

I guess I wasn't as creative as others.

Here are my thoughts, and I think the CW requirement should be changed, but not eliminated.

Personally, I feel that before anyone posts to a web site they should learn proper English along with it's grammar and become familiar enough with their equipment that they know how to use spell-check. They should also have to pass a 20 wpm error free typing test...on a MANUAL typewriter (I am certified for 46 wpm on a mill...that's a REAL typewriter)

Just look at the 'riff-raff' on eHam. Do you think anyone of them can get over 40 error free wpm on a mill? NO WAY!

I had to learn to use a mill so I think that everyone else should too. Otherwise they are just being given an opportunity that I had to work for.

How's that for being creative?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K8MHZ- how's this? When I was in high school, we had to take several "elective" classes. One of my electives was "personal typing". We didn't have PCs back then. I failed miserably! I was more interested in other things. Then I bought an Atari 400 computer. I was forced to learn the keyboard. Then an Atari 800. Then an Atari 800XL. Then an Atari 1200XL. Next came an old green-screen IBM-PC. I skipped the 286's and went straight for a 386sx-16! Shortly afterwards I took a part-time job repairing PCs for a local company, and was forced to learn to type DOS commands at high speeds in order to turn out work in a timely manner. After retiring from the fire department in 2003, I found myself back in the family business. There was no PC, only an old Royal typewriter. What a difference typing on that old goat was! (I did convince my family to buy a PC for the business shortly after going back to work there.) It really was an experience to turn out a piece of paper free of errors on that old Royal! Did you ever see the guy on the old Ripley's Believe It or Not show that could type 120WPM? WOW! What a display! Anyhow, thanks for the trip down memory lane. BTW, I haven't seen a spell-check function on eHam, so are you referring to typing in another program, then cutting and pasting? It would be nice for eHam (and other websites that allow commentary) to have a spell and grammar check function in the side bar. 73, -KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Oops: correction to my post above: "Disagree. Our repeaters are are definitely not "painful to listen to" because we (mostly...) have good ops. Addition of a barrier to use (PL) would have no effect. "

... should read:

Disagree. Our repeaters here are definitely not "painful to listen to" because we (mostly...) have good ops. Addition of a barrier to use (PL) would have an adverse effect, in my opinion.

I shouldn't type that late at night.... :o)

PS: in addition to the spell check function mentioned above, how about an "edit" function for our own posts?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Web,

Here is the spell checker I use, it is part of the Google toolbar.

toolbar.google.com

I use Google quite extensively. Having a Google search form right in the bar is great. It also has a page rank meter, a short cut to Google Earth if you use it, a pop-up blocker and some other cool options. So far I have seen no evidence of spyware or adware. Google is my friend.

I am also a big fan of my trusty old Webster's dictionary and my very worn out copy of Roget's Thesaurus.

The typewriter thing came to my mind after working HF the other day on the USS Silversides, a WWII Gato class museum submarine we have here in Muskegon. Our gear, an IC-735 like my own and an RS 2 meter rig, is setting on top of a desk in the radio room. We are slowly restoring the radio room. The 200 watt CW - 100 watt AM amplifier is over 4 feet tall and weighs probably 900 lbs. Sitting next to our station is the manual typewriter that has been there for 6 decades. I was explaining to the other guys on the sub that the typewriter was called a mill by radio operators. It was not only used to type messages of all sorts, but was most valuable to the CW operators that could copy code far faster than they could hand write it. A savvy CW op on a mill could copy 90 plus WPM. Just try to write at that speed and see if it will be at all legible. Bear in mind that the average person speaks about 120 WPM. With the efficiency of a good communicator and the use of shorthand and abbreviations it is quite probable that the CW ops could get messages passed as fast as a phone operator. Especially when the far superior CW signal removes fills needed by an AM operator with a weak copy.

We searched through every drawer and cabinet and could not find a CW key. I sure would like to get one on the sub, especially if we could find the original or an exact match.

If you ever get a chance to explore a museum ship at your own pace, especially a WWII ship, you will find the technology of the time to be absolutely awesome.



 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KE7CFA on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K4UUG said:

[ ... ]

"8. I do not have good ideas on how to change the mode attitudes. I wish I did because I believe the mode attitude is the Achilles Heel of the Amateur Radio Hobby.Changing our attitude towards change and new comers is a key part of growing Amateur radio in the future."

I am studying CW. I am doing this first, then take the written, for General. I can tell you how I'm going to do it.

When I get my General, I will not carry on this attitude. I could care less about CW. The 'rules' say I have to learn it, so I will. Beyond that, I will welcome everyone to the hobby, and help where I can to get people interested.

As for repeaters? Whats the big deal use them if you want. If not, don't use them. I haven't had any problems, other than not knowing the specific rules on a particular repeater. One control op, informed my better half and I that cross-banding was not allowed on his repeater (we were doing this at the time).

Ok, it's his repeater. We did not get 'kicked off'. We still use it, just not as much as before - hardly ever now. But, we still can if we want to. I don't see what the big deal is. Maybe the repeaters, here, are more 'forgiving'. Don't know. We'll keep using them - one more tool in the box.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
CFA,

Question.

Did the repeater owner give you a reason for him not wanting you to cross-band into the repeater?

When I use mine cross bander no one can even tell I am using it. I have heard people using cross banders that had issues with lag and hang time and poor signal quality. Just wondering if that is the reason.

There is also some Part 97 issues such as proper ID and having a control op present.

Some radios can be set up to not only be legal, but be practically transparent. Do you think the repeater owner would have a problem with cross banding if set up properly?

Or is there another issue I should be aware of?

I use my cross bander quite often, and many times into a repeater. I have never had a problem with it.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KE7CFA on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K8MHZ -

No he didn't. He just said they have had problems with this in the passed and he "don't allow cross-banding on that frequency". I didn't want to make an issue of it on the air. So I emailed him. Never got an answer, not even a reply. Ok..... I can take a hint.

I did look at the repeaters web site, and saw no 'rule' on the use of cross banding. But, it is his repeater system. So we just 'moved on'. After that, I asked if cross banding was ok on other repeaters we use, a lot. We were told - no problem, go right ahead.

We cross band a lot. For the moment, all we have are 2 mobiles and 2 HT's. So, for example, when she visits her family - 80 miles from here - she will set up the mobile to crossband and use the HT from inside their house. They don't have very good cell coverage there. I'll do the same thing - at home - with my HT and mobile. Worked great! Well.......it did anyway.

I have a shift and digital tones set up for crossbanding. Everything I can think of to minimize interference, and we are always close enough to run out to the car - quickly - in case something happens that requires the radios to be shut down. This works so well, I can run a Net this way - and do.

Anyway, it is his repeater and he can do what he wants with it. Not much I can do. We don't use it much. Not so much because of the crossbanding thing.

It's the hidden rules, I figure if it is THAT big of a problem, this could have been stated in the 'rules for repeater use'. We are a lot more careful about repeaters we are new on, and more selective.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6ATF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K4JF- "Disagree. Our repeaters here are definitely not "painful to listen to" because we (mostly...) have good ops. Addition of a barrier to use (PL) would have an adverse effect, in my opinion. "

I'm not talking about ops. Bad ops are a statistical outlier.

I'm talking about paging transmitters and other sources of RFI that keys the repeater and blows out your eardrums if you have your volume turned up.

This should have gone without saying.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6ATF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
And by ops, the common usage is that means amateur radio operators, not control operators, unless 'control' is actually used as the prefix.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I was taught by a now-SK mentor that the "proper" way to use a cross-band repeater was to identify it in voice as a "remote base". In other words, if I was using it, I would say: "This is KR4WM via KR4WM remote base". You would need to identify in this method as you would any other identification (every 10 minutes and at the end of a QSO). This is assuming you have no real repeater controller identifying your cross-band repeater.

I've used mine to help during nets when the link transmitter was broken to tie two repeaters together. It's been a blessing at large hamfests to relay pipsqueek signals from handhelds. I can think of dozens of uses, but no reason for someone not to use it if they have it available.

As far as the Google toolbar, I'm convinced that Google is evil reincarnate. I use the Scroogle scraper which rotates IP addresses while using the real Google to obtain search results. This makes your Google searches untraceable. It also deletes all tracks of your searches after a certain amount of time. The anti-ads on the Scroogle website are pretty funny as well! If you value your privacy, you won't use Google.

I'd rather see the dictionary/thesaurus in the sidebar.

We have the U.S.S. North Carolina 75 miles north of me, and the U.S.S. Yorktown carrier, the U.S.S. Clamagore, and a few other ships 95 miles south of me. It's always a memorable tour any time I get to visit! If you want a J-37 (or J-38?) straight key for your operation, let me know. I think I have one around here somewhere, and it would please me to know that it went to a good home.

-KR4WM
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KE7CFA,

Thanks for the response and also it is nice to hear that you are complying with the repeater owners wishes. That shows respect on your part.

Web,

I like that method of IDing. I think that I will do it as we really don't have a set method here.

How did you manage to tie the repeaters together? Was one a UHF and the other a VHF? Inquiring minds want to know!

I like Google and I don't care if I am 'tracked'. I delete my cookies and history every now and them to keep them manageable. I use my own .com address through a paid service provider and they have a very good anti-spam program. I very seldom get spam and when I do it usually has a verifiable return address. If I want them to stop I fabricate a 'no such mailbox' message and send it back to them using the addy mailer-dameon@k8mhz.com. It seems to work every time.

I do value my privacy, that is why nothing I value goes on my computer. Any banking info is from an account kept to a bare minimum and used for Internet transactions. I suggest that people have two bank accounts so one has info that can be kept off the Internet.

As for the key, I will look into it and try to determine what was originally there. To get one would be wonderful! If you were to donate one I would see that your name and call are visible somewhere in the radio room crediting you with the donation. I think the Silversides Museum has a postal address and you would be able to send it right to them. I can then get it into the radio room and connect it to the proper rig. That would be so cool!

73,

Mark K8MHZ

Yea, though I walk through the valley of bandwidth, I fear no Google for my computer crasheth often and riddeth me of all evil data.

The Book of Windows, Chapter 98, Verse 3.11


 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"And by ops, the common usage is that means amateur radio operators, not control operators, unless 'control' is actually used as the prefix. "

You are correct, but I wonder why you felt the need to state it, since that is exactly the context in which I used it.

As for the other problems you mentioned, that is something that SOME repeaters experience. By no means all. Our main repeater here has no PL and no such problem. It is open and friendly to travelers, which is a good thing, as it covers hundreds of miles of two Interstates. That is the main reason we so strongly oppose mandatory PL. It simply is not needed and would block many travelers and folks on limited income with older rigs.

My own experience has been (and I travel a lot) that repeaters with PL tend to be less friendly than those without, even when you use the PL. (My TM-V7A has it, even if it is difficult to use, being buried deep in the menus.) On one, for example, in N. Virginia no one would answer me, even when I got the PL from a local dealer and called CQ right after a QSO. Happened on more than one trip.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6ATF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I wasn't sure. The control ops could be responsible for installing as many technical blocks to repeater interference and painful blasts of audio as possible.

I now understand what you mean by bringing up "bad ops". But bad ops cause mental pain by not responding, not physical pain.

Well, if your repeater is protected from interference without using PL, or is somehow immune from it (exclusive site), more power (and donations) to it. From what I've heard in repeater building discussions, it is much more expensive to protect a repeater without a PL than it is with one. Perhaps the absence of a PL will encourage more donations. Or maybe it won't - the limited income problem would still exist.

High standards of repeater operation need to be met before it can foster a good and active userbase. Nobody should want to select a home repeater that has more bursts of noise and static than silence or talking - if they're not a part of the technical committee.

I have a TM-V7A as well. It takes 2 keystrokes to get to the Tone Select mode, which are stored in muscle memory. Then spin the dial or press the up/down buttons around like any other radio to the proper PL, press the Off button, and you're done. Tone ON is automatically set by the radio so no keystrokes for that. It takes me about 7 seconds at most to set the PL on this radio. 7 seconds to set a PL is 6 seconds more than to turn PL off, but it certainly is not "difficult to use" or "buried deep in the menus".

I suppose it's possible your radio has different firmware that makes it many times harder than mine, but I don't remember seeing anything but a fix of the display in the original/lavender box final revision discussions.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What is it with the problem of PL tones?

We need them. About 1/3 of the year I can hit at least 3 repeaters with the same pair as our local one. PL tones keep the repeater usable year long.

If you don't know how to use your equipment that is your own fault. Don't buy a rig that you are too feeble to use. Trust me, learning to operate an appliance is WAY easier than learning CW at 20 WPM.

If you can't figure out how to use 2 meter repeaters with a PL tone please stay on 75 meters and pontificate extensively on your prostrate problems.

FRS radios have PL tones and second graders manage to master their use during recess. I think that licensed amateurs should be able to handle it as well.

Fire away!!

mhzed
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W3LI on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What the heck for,,,they caused the start of the degradation of ham radio.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W3LI on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What the heck for,,,they caused the start of the degradation of ham radio.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I have a TM-V7A as well. It takes 2 keystrokes to get to the Tone Select mode, which are stored in muscle memory. Then spin the dial or press the up/down buttons around like any other radio to the proper PL, press the Off button, and you're done. Tone ON is automatically set by the radio so no keystrokes for that."

Heh, heh. Just my point. Two levels deep. Hardly a procedure one can safely use in a vehicle, now is it? And that's after you have spun the dial to the correct frequency. (Scan mode is fine to find a repeater, but no good for using it if is it closed.) "Muscle memory"? I don't believe that term is in the owner's manual.

And, of course, you have to know the correct PL frequency first, don't you? That's not always published.

Then again, I still couldn't use my TS-711, or my TH-22 or my TM-241A or my TS-790. None have the optional tone boards installed, and the boards are no longer available.

All that because a repeater is not properly designed or constructed or located.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"FRS radios have PL tones and second graders manage to master their use during recess."

Maybe some do. Not all. But if so what for? They don't have repeaters.

I have 3 FRS radios, 2 different models. None have PL tones. Don't believe I have ever seen one with such. Doesn't mean none do, so I'm not saying that.

"I think that licensed amateurs should be able to handle it as well."

I'm sure we can. But again, why have them if they are not needed? It's not a matter of ability. It's a matter of unnecessary layers of complexity. Key word: unnecessary. Ever hear of the KISS principle?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WN2RUJ on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
How many repeaters can I support. In the old days I picked out a few clubs to join and used these repeaters. I used the open repeaters sparingly as I was not a member. The first 2M rig I saw in 1974 was a five channel Drake owned by the president of my High School radio club. I bought my first frequency synthesised handheld in 1980. In 1984 I bought my first 2M mobile rig. At that time there were many open repeaters in the New York City area. I have a bad habit of using everything I own until it dies. My rigs do not have tones. After not being on repeaters for six years, I took my 2AT handheld on my Yacht trip in the Chesapeake. I could open only one repeater to which I never got a response. I saw on Ebay that my mobile rig is now worth $25. I can't bring myself to buy a new rig for the repeaters with the low level of conversation I hear today.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6ATF on August 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Two levels deep! We're all going to die!

Just selecting a frequency is unsafe in your logic, so let's not make exceptions! If operating a motor vehicle safely (that means both hands on the wheel and eyes on the road all the time) is too much to ask, don't drive! Set your easier-to-program-than-a-VCR-radio's memories when your vehicle is stationary and you cannot kill anyone, including yourself! Better safe than dead!

"All that because a repeater is not properly designed or constructed or located."

So you wish to shift the increased monetary burden of design, construction, parts, and location from the poor (who apparently demand it) to the rich (who do not, because the status quo is just fine with their equipment)?

If users can't afford modern equipment, and they also can't afford to support the cost of running a PL-free, interference-free repeater, where do you expect the money to come from? The sky, or the bottomless pockets of SuperHams?

We don't live in your perfect world.

P.S. I've had 3 models and brands of Family Radio Service radios. 2 out of the 3 have PL. PL especially is useful for Families to block out other families on the same frequency. Since power limits are so low, usage is infrequent, and terrain varies, I rarely detect doubling.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WZ4I on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again
>by KR4WM on August 13, 2006

>Gee Johnny, still at it with the personal attacks, are >we? -KR4WM

KR4WM pay no attention to Johnny Boy, he can't help himself. He’s a bottom feeder. He began at the bottom, and it’s been down hill for him ever since. And always remember, never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

P.S. Try to make the fall Harley-Davidson Rally in the Valley next month.

73 and good DX
WZ4I - Mark Harrison
Hickory, NC
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Maybe some do. Not all. But if so what for? They don't have repeaters."

I can't believe that question was asked by an Extra Class ham.

"I'm sure we can. But again, why have them if they are not needed? It's not a matter of ability. It's a matter of unnecessary layers of complexity. Key word: unnecessary. Ever hear of the KISS principle?"

I have heard of the KISS principle. We use it when we are dealing with children and people that can't learn how to use equipment without hurting someone.

Ham radio, however, is not the best place for a person that is either simple or stupid. Sorry.

PL tones are needed, especially in the summer. Before you start suggesting changes for the installation and use of repeaters it may be wise to hit the books and learn just what tones are and what they are for. Once the realization of the importance of PL tones occurs, a few more moments of reading should provide the ability to use a radio with PL tones.

I am looking at my TM-241A. The radio has a Tone button right on the front display. Unless I am shown otherwise, it appears that the 241A was built with the tone feature. What button is on yours between the Shift and the Reverse button?
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Come on, MHZ. We both know exactly what tones are and what they are for.

And no one said we can't use them. The point is we do not WANT to use them when they are unnecessary.

If a repeater (like most of ours here) is properly coordinated and located, with decent equipment, then there is no need for tones. Period.

If the club wants to require tones, that is their privilege. But you MUST realize that the tones are a compromise for when you (for whatever reason) cannot properly locate a repeater and pick an unused frequency pair. Sometimes such is necessary because of limited sites, equipment, or funds. BUT, you must also realize that you limit access when you do that. I was around when tones were ONLY used for the purpose of limiting access to a particular group of people. You can't deny that some still use the feature for that purpose.

What I have a problem with is people saying all repeaters should have them. That is simply not the case. The main repeaters here have no need - don't force it.

It is still my observation, from extended travel, that those repeaters without tones are the more friendly ones, and more open to travelers. That has been my experience from Florida to Michigan, and from Virginia to Washington. Unless tones are absolutely necesary for your repeater, you should consider opening it up to all. You will find it interesting to chat with travelers.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WN2RUJ, you are exactly right. And using a radio for its useful life is NOT a "bad habit".

There are too many people saying that if you can't afford (or do not wish to purchase) the latest bells-and-whistles equipment, then you should not be allowed to use the airwaves. Newsflash: there are lots and lots of hams on fixed income, Social security and such. And with their experience, we can learn a lot from them if we don't shut them off the air. Many have led interesting lives, have developed equipment and processes we still use, have some real wisdom to impart. Not all talk about their ailments, in fact, I rarely hear such, even when I occasionally go on 75m. (Most of my operating is on 20, 15, and 10.)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K4JF,

Then why did you ask "If so, what for?"

Tones allow more stations to use the same frequency without interference. A much better use of the spectrum.

Consider this. I have a high gain co-linear antenna just above the roof of my house. By changing PL tones I can work repeaters on the same frequency in three different states. If repeaters as far away as 150 miles apart did not have PL tones several would come on simultaneously when I keyed up. Especially in the late summer months. There are two 146.94 repeaters within the reach of my station without PL tones. When tropo is present, sometimes they come on when I am trying to work our '94 that has a tone. When that happens I have a hard time working the repeater in my own county and am also coming through a repeater in the center of the state and another in a different state. There are many stations in my county that have better antennas that are up higher than mine and can work these repeaters year round with a solid signal.

I checked the manual for my TM-241A. It comes standard with all 38 PL tones. Dig out your manual and read up. You will be able to work toned repeaters with it unless it is broken. The options are for tone coded squelch and DTMF for working phone patches, neither of which are required for working a toned repeater.

I don't own any of the other rigs but you may find that they also have PL ability, especially the HTs.

With so many repeaters now up and running a good vhf base station should have no problem hitting multiple repeaters on the same freq. pair. As such, PL tones are indeed a necessity for most repeaters. Just because the station you are currently operating won't open up more than one machine, that isn't true for the bigger base stations.

I find it rather cool to be able to move from one repeater to another on the same frequency by changing tones. One has to be careful while doing this and be aware that if someone tries to use the local repeater there may be some interference on the input. Even so, it's not rocket science, just good old appliance operating fun.

I don't know what kind of vhf station you have, but if you get a chance to play on one that has a high gain omni-directional antenna way up high you may understand why it is prudent to use PL tones.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"You can't deny that some still use the feature for that purpose."

I can deny that we don't do that. Western Michigan is 94.8 for all their toned repeaters. Most Central MI is 100.0 and most Northern LP are 103.5.

A glance at the Directory will show that we try to use the same tone for a given area as much as possible. We also include the tone when we tell people the freqs.

The tone scan feature has been around for quite a while now, my IC-2100 has it and I am sure it wasn't the first to have it. This is a nice feature. If I hear a distant repeater and don't want to wait for an ID, sometimes I can figure out what repeater I am hearing by scanning the tone and looking it up in the Directory.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I don't know what kind of vhf station you have, but if you get a chance to play on one that has a high gain omni-directional antenna way up high you may understand why it is prudent to use PL tones."

Well, if a hilltop station, with a Ringo on a 45 ft tower at 1000 feet above MSL (plus an 11-el beam to switch in if wanted) doesn't qualify, I don't know what does. High gain omnidirectional antenna way up high is a very good description. Add in 100 watts whenever I might need it, but rarely use it except on SSB. I easily hit repeaters in 3 states. Still, most of them don't have PL and don't need it.

An area with a greater population density than our half million or so might have more problems. I concede that. But you should not apply your problems to everyone.

As for the "donations" comment, we use funds from club dues and hamfest profits. Don't need donations.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I checked the manual for my TM-241A. It comes standard with all 38 PL tones. Dig out your manual and read up. You will be able to work toned repeaters with it unless it is broken."

No need. That rig is used for packet. No tones on those repeaters. (yet.) But no need even if I put it back in the sailboat. Few toned repeaters here, or in the coastal areas. (The TM-271A that is in the sailboat now probably has them, but never looked them up as they are not needed.)

And for Michigan, I had some very nice QSOs on our way to Mackinac Island a couple of years ago. Using the HT... no tones...good repeaters and friendly people along I-75.

I didn't say YOU used tones to keep people out, I said that SOME do. I know of one repeater here that put tones on just to keep usage to a select group.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"And, of course, you have to know the correct PL frequency first, don't you? That's not always published."

If you don't have a tone scan, try this. Go to simplex mode in the highest power setting you have and transmit a request on the output of the repeater to get the tones and the offset. Hopefully someone will hear you and if they are friendly they will not only happily give you the info, but stay in QSO with you long enough to make sure you are hitting the repeater OK. They may also ask if they can be of assistance with local information.

If they are not friendly you probably don't want to talk to them anyway!

I have only done this a couple times but it seemed to work for me. I have also answered QSOs from hams that were trying to figure out the tones for our local repeater. This is also a good chance to give them info for other repeaters as they pass through the area.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Well, if a hilltop station, with a Ringo on a 45 ft tower at 1000 feet above MSL (plus an 11-el beam to switch in if wanted) doesn't qualify, I don't know what does."

Yep, that would be a good one. Don't you hit more than one repeater on a pair? That set up here sure would, which I don't consider a problem, I think it's great.

I travel all over the state working on Verizon stuff. I have never been in an area I could not hit a repeater using my TM-V7A with a 16 inch tall antenna. This includes an area in the middle of the state that was so far out in the boonies we had to use GPS to find it. No cell phone coverage whatsoever. The Verizon guy had to use a portable handset and plug it into one of the MESA boxes to contact his HQ. I asked why he didn't use the radio. He informed me that there was no coverage of any kind where we were other than twisted pair, no cell, no radio. To his amazement I showed him I could hit a repeater in Mt. Pleasant full quieting and had decent signals into a couple others.

I guess there are a bunch of repeaters around here, maybe more than other states. I like it, especially when I am zipping around the state.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6ATF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Don't even bother arguing. It's pretty clear this comes down to a class warfare issue in his mind. The 'poor' must beg, borrow, and steal from the 'rich' by forcing the 'rich' to accomodate the added expense of making repeaters PL- and interference-free, so the 'poor' are able to use their near-obsolete radios on repeaters.

Why don't we just take a more direct route? Let's set up a program where fixed-income hams (hey, that includes kids too) can add themselves, or be added with assistance, to a database of need. Then people with surplus but nowhere near obsolete (read: PL capable) rigs can directly donate them to those in need. Hell of a lot better than letting them collect dust, or be thrown in a dumpster, as apparently happened with a local radio club that was unable to arrange distribution for many donated rigs! Then the obsolete radios can be put in a museum or electronics recycling, where they belong. Should they be dumped in a landfill by relatives when the ham goes SK? I don't think so.

If people really wanted to restrict access to a repeater, they would use non-standard CTCSS tones such as 229.1 (Motorola 9Z) or DCS at the very least.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again? Nah.  
by K1PGV on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Repeaters are boring, silly, redundant, and filled with conversations about stuff that I don't want to hear. I think radios are fun, but listening to some OM complain about his medical problems? Not so much.

The first week I was licensed (sorry folks... newbie here, tech license for less than a year), I remember hearing an OM on the local repeater describing how part of his leg was turning black and had to be cut off. Gad! Welcome to the world of 2M repeaters.

Most of us techs ARE DYING to do stuff on the radio. Don't believe me? Look at high level of the APRS traffic. APRS is what 2M repeaters were in the past. And while the QSOs on ARPS aren't exactly thrilling, at least you don't have to hear about some guy's colostomy.

Me... I've given up waiting for the FCC to drop the code requirement (having already passed the written part of my general) and I'm actively working on my code ("did pop pop it" == P). I'll see you on PSK31 before the end of this month.

de Peter

(This IS the funniest thread on here in ages.)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again? Nah.  
by K4JF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I travel all over the state working on Verizon stuff. I have never been in an area I could not hit a repeater using my TM-V7A with a 16 inch tall antenna. This includes an area in the middle of the state that was so far out in the boonies we had to use GPS to find it. No cell phone coverage whatsoever. "

Good point. My experience parallels that (in other areas). On a non-related subject, that is exactly why I tell emergency preparedness people to NOT rely on cellphones. Many gaps in coverage, and usually no gaps in repeater coverage (which is the case here).
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Don't even bother arguing. It's pretty clear this comes down to a class warfare issue in his mind. The 'poor' must beg, borrow, and steal from the 'rich' by forcing the 'rich' to accomodate the added expense of making repeaters PL- and interference-free, so the 'poor' are able to use their near-obsolete radios on repeaters. "

By no means does it have anything to do with class. The "poor" statement is completely out of line. It completely has to do with unnecessary restrictions on operations. The KISS principle is applied to all good engineering, and is certainly NOT a kids thing.

Incidentally good engineering and design does NOT have to cost more. That is ridiculous. Our small club keeps up 5 repeaters, in multiple locations, using nothing but modest dues and one hamfest a year. No donations except members time (very valuable, of course.) State of the art equipment, in fact, just recently upgraded 2 of them. No tones, by the way.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""Well, if a hilltop station, with a Ringo on a 45 ft tower at 1000 feet above MSL (plus an 11-el beam to switch in if wanted) doesn't qualify, I don't know what does."

Yep, that would be a good one. Don't you hit more than one repeater on a pair?"

Nope. They are spaced out. You may not have that situation where you live, which is why I said PL may be useful there, but not needed here (or not everywhere).

Use it if you need it. Don't if you don't. But I would strongly suggest one wide coverage repeater in each area be on a clear frequency and no PL. As before, you will find some interesting people out there on the highways. Travelers are, almost by definition, widely experienced people.

And for the new ham complaining about subjects discussed on repeaters, remember that is where you live, not everywhere. Certainly isn't the case here.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KG6WLV on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
A couple of random thoughts, if anyone is still reading this thread:
I am a Tech. I spend most of my time on 2 and 6-meter sideband. I enjoy pushing the limits of the bands without the use of repeaters. I also enjoy off-peak ragchews on distant machines, talking with folks I wouldn't normally be able to hear or work in other modes.
I like hilltopping with my HT; again, pushing the limits of simplex contacts, but some of those I've set up on a local machine.
I've run into one or two "freqency cops" on a local repeater (a person who got especially rude after someone I was talking with accidentally timed out the machine), but most people are friendly.
On one repeater, I heard the on-air elemering of a newbie who has REALLY improved with the help. I've gotten a "cold shoulder" on one machine only, but have always been welcomed on others.
Any ham who relies on an HT with a rubber duck as his/her only window on the hobby will probably become bored. Purchasing or building a decent antenna -- that small step alone -- will open a lot more possibilities for them.
There's nothing wrong with a "honey, pick up a loaf of bread," contact. In some areas of the Sierra foothills, for example, repeaters are the only reliable method of mobile communications, NOT cell phones. Many families got their ham tickets for just this reason, and it's fine. They don't tie up machines, and they are usually interested in other aspects of the hobby, too. I've entered into casual conversations with folks like that, and it was fun. Truckers and other folks on long trips have also been good repeater contacts for me.
I don't usually monitor repeaters, and don't expect to hear scintillating conversation on ANY ham band. When it happens it's great, and when I'm participating, it's better still. I've been complimented on my rag-chewing skills on more than one occasion. I think it's because I am interested in MANY subjects and make good observations, ask good questions, and avoid controversy. My goal is always to be friendly and get to know more people on the air, and learn from any operating mistakes I may make. When I upgrade to General, I intend to continue in that vein.
Perhaps I'm lucky to live in a good place -- SF Bay Area -- but many of the on-air problems that others have referenced I just don't seem to hear much.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again? Nah.  
by K8MHZ on August 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"The first week I was licensed (sorry folks... newbie here, tech license for less than a year), I remember hearing an OM on the local repeater describing how part of his leg was turning black and had to be cut off. Gad! Welcome to the world of 2M repeaters."

Funny you brought this up.

Just tonight we were doing a demo of our field stations in a local park. One new ham showed up at the end to see the stations. He mentioned that when he first got his license he bought a brand new FT-60. The very first QSO he heard was an OF telling someone that he had not had a bowel movement in eight days. He told me that he really thought he screwed up by getting a license and spending a couple hundred bucks on a new rig.

Fortunately he stuck with it. But this illustrates why I feel we need to lay off the medical stuff on the air. I for one hate listening to it and some folks that just HAVE to talk about their medical problems on the air seem to have no respect for other listeners.

I welcome you to the hobby. It really is scads of fun. I was a No Code Tech for ten years and still did not get a chance to do all the stuff I had access to. I still have yet to work 6 meters. VHF/UHF and using small radios to do public service is really cool. Setting up stations with emergency comms in mind is a lot of fun too.

I got the HF bug last year after I got my General. Wow! What a blast! The world is at my fingertips on 20 meters. 39 confirmed (by QSL hard card) countries on a home brew wire antenna in just a few short months.

Have fun, it's not that hard to do.

73 de K8MHZ
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KK6NJ on August 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Hello, all amateurs iam an repeater owner here in
southern california and i feel that operators
are told what to do too much when it comes to
repeater use,there seems to be an campaign to
be more restrictive about qso content etc and
returning to all technical talk on the ham
airwaves which i feel is unrealistic,and will
be the ending demise of ham radio if this attitude
continues,it simply will not work.

The arrl and the with fcc approval was the no code
era in 1991 with qso,s without technical content
including politics religion,controversal subject
matter not violating the part 97 rules and regs.

It was fun but in 1995 the world wide web became
an major compeititor,along with the millenium
cb radio netizens band chat lines.later,by the
year 2000 cell phones have pretty much eliminated
most of our autopatches,i hear very little today
even here in southern california.

Now you can scan the two meter band an find only
a few repeaters being used,and some are to busy
telling everyone how it is and what they can
and talk about on these repeaters the major,
instigator is living in the desolate desert,and
those repeaters are quiet,nobody whats to talk
too much telling eceryone what to do!!!

On my repeater,you can talk about anything you
want religion,politics,controversal,subject,matter
etc,as long as part 97 is not violated,but this
is the reason i have my own repeater i dont want
to hear part97-e you cannot talk politics,religion
on my machine.

We will simply get no where far as bringing new operators into this hobby with these attitudes
a matter of fact i may or someone else may file
an peitition to fcc on rule part97-e modification
because it could be challenged in court because
of constitutional,violations of freedom of speech
and seperation of state to practice religion on
certain repeaters apparently part97-e allows this
and could be challenged in court as an persons
right to practice religion is an outright violation
of an repeater user,s constitutional right!

The fcc in my opinion should ammend part97-e to
the revision of an repeater owner cannot deny
the constitutional right,of freedom of speech and
practice of religion because these frequencies do
belong to the public not owned personally by
the repeater owner,regardless of owner of the
equiptment.

Lets face it om,s this attitude technical,only,
is not going to work and keep ham radio alive!!
we cannot afford this discriminitive,attitude!
technical only is unrealistic and outdated!!
besides there is no ruling in part 97 prohibitive
practices stating that religion and politics is
not allowed.

Another point i have to be honest about too is
yes we are supposed to police our commnnity,of
ham radio but lets face it enforcing part-97
to the letter of some earlier quotes,such as
technical aim only,we must not use ham radio
for purposes that can be used in another service
and not on an regular basis is unrealistic,we act
like the fcc and amateur oo,s are running around in
patrol cars looking to write notice of violations
of these nitpicky part 97-sections,now dont get me
wrong now,i do not promote rule breaking but
these particular issues are simply gray,line and
border,line areas of compliance,for example we
are to be technical as an basis and purpose but
discussing religion and idle chit chat is not
prohibited.

Another beef i have with my old elmers in the past
when i operated cb radio in the early seventies
is that my ham friends keep hounding me about
hobby communications being illegal on cb radio,
and reversed in 1975,and to get your ham license
and you can talk about anything you want with more
power and skip shooting is legal,but when you
get into ham radio there is an different picture
that is painted.

also i feel that this part97-e is an excuse to
be discriminitive against hams who want to discuss
politics and religion,on repeaters by there owners
because they simply do not respect other peoples
opinions and beliefs,i feel this attitude is going
to ruin ham radio,,people do not want to be told
what to do especially if it violates there constitutional ,rights of liberty and pursuit of
happiness,freedom of press,religion,speech,although
i do believe there is an national campaign un officially,goin on and being implemented to violate
these rights and slowly take them away from us.

Also,worth mentioning the more resistance and
more hassle you present to current operators
and future prospective operators,will simply
say i do not need these hassles and conflict!!
we need to be civilized,not self centered,
and more respectful to everyones beliefs,we need
to take peoples opinions in stride thats your
opinion,dont send the goons after someone who
has dissent against your beliefs!!live and let live
this shutting an repeater off because i voted for
al gore and the repeater owner voted for bushwacker
aka,jr ewing junior,is not right and chicken little
and an violation of this persons constitutional right.
SO CAN WE ALL GET ALONG NOW!!HA,HA,HA,.
OR DO WE NEED TRAING WHEELS STILL FOR OUR BICYCLES:

we simply must stop this telling you how it is !
it has to go or ham radio will simply will not
make it!!!




 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KK6NJ on August 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Hello, all amateurs iam an repeater owner here in
southern california and i feel that operators
are told what to do too much when it comes to
repeater use,there seems to be an campaign to
be more restrictive about qso content etc and
returning to all technical talk on the ham
airwaves which i feel is unrealistic,and will
be the ending demise of ham radio if this attitude
continues,it simply will not work.

The arrl and the with fcc approval was the no code
era in 1991 with qso,s without technical content
including politics religion,controversal subject
matter not violating the part 97 rules and regs.

It was fun but in 1995 the world wide web became
an major compeititor,along with the millenium
cb radio netizens band chat lines.later,by the
year 2000 cell phones have pretty much eliminated
most of our autopatches,i hear very little today
even here in southern california.

Now you can scan the two meter band an find only
a few repeaters being used,and some are to busy
telling everyone how it is and what they can
and talk about on these repeaters the major,
instigator is living in the desolate desert,and
those repeaters are quiet,nobody whats to talk
too much telling eceryone what to do!!!

On my repeater,you can talk about anything you
want religion,politics,controversal,subject,matter
etc,as long as part 97 is not violated,but this
is the reason i have my own repeater i dont want
to hear part97-e you cannot talk politics,religion
on my machine.

We will simply get no where far as bringing new operators into this hobby with these attitudes
a matter of fact i may or someone else may file
an peitition to fcc on rule part97-e modification
because it could be challenged in court because
of constitutional,violations of freedom of speech
and seperation of state to practice religion on
certain repeaters apparently part97-e allows this
and could be challenged in court as an persons
right to practice religion is an outright violation
of an repeater user,s constitutional right!

The fcc in my opinion should ammend part97-e to
the revision of an repeater owner cannot deny
the constitutional right,of freedom of speech and
practice of religion because these frequencies do
belong to the public not owned personally by
the repeater owner,regardless of owner of the
equiptment.

Lets face it om,s this attitude technical,only,
is not going to work and keep ham radio alive!!
we cannot afford this discriminitive,attitude!
technical only is unrealistic and outdated!!
besides there is no ruling in part 97 prohibitive
practices stating that religion and politics is
not allowed.

Another point i have to be honest about too is
yes we are supposed to police our commnnity,of
ham radio but lets face it enforcing part-97
to the letter of some earlier quotes,such as
technical aim only,we must not use ham radio
for purposes that can be used in another service
and not on an regular basis is unrealistic,we act
like the fcc and amateur oo,s are running around in
patrol cars looking to write notice of violations
of these nitpicky part 97-sections,now dont get me
wrong now,i do not promote rule breaking but
these particular issues are simply gray,line and
border,line areas of compliance,for example we
are to be technical as an basis and purpose but
discussing religion and idle chit chat is not
prohibited.

Another beef i have with my old elmers in the past
when i operated cb radio in the early seventies
is that my ham friends keep hounding me about
hobby communications being illegal on cb radio,
and reversed in 1975,and to get your ham license
and you can talk about anything you want with more
power and skip shooting is legal,but when you
get into ham radio there is an different picture
that is painted.

also i feel that this part97-e is an excuse to
be discriminitive against hams who want to discuss
politics and religion,on repeaters by there owners
because they simply do not respect other peoples
opinions and beliefs,i feel this attitude is going
to ruin ham radio,,people do not want to be told
what to do especially if it violates there constitutional ,rights of liberty and pursuit of
happiness,freedom of press,religion,speech,although
i do believe there is an national campaign un officially,goin on and being implemented to violate
these rights and slowly take them away from us.

Also,worth mentioning the more resistance and
more hassle you present to current operators
and future prospective operators,will simply
say i do not need these hassles and conflict!!
we need to be civilized,not self centered,
and more respectful to everyones beliefs,we need
to take peoples opinions in stride thats your
opinion,dont send the goons after someone who
has dissent against your beliefs!!live and let live
this shutting an repeater off because i voted for
al gore and the repeater owner voted for bushwacker
aka,jr ewing junior,is not right and chicken little
and an violation of this persons constitutional right.
SO CAN WE ALL GET ALONG NOW!!HA,HA,HA,.
OR DO WE NEED TRAING WHEELS STILL FOR OUR BICYCLES:

we simply must stop this telling you how it is !
it has to go or ham radio will simply will not
make it!!!




 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
97-e?

Do you mean Part 97, Subpart E, Providing Emergency Communications?

What on Earth does that have to with religion or politics on repeaters?

We can legally talk about almost anything to US stations. The restriction keep QSOs to a technical nature only applies to conversations with stations in other countries. (97.117)

Please clarify what you are referring to as 97-e as without such clarification most of the meaning of your post lost.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KK6NJ on August 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hello,om sorry for the omission but it is under
part,part97-205-e also part 97-1-e also is
another close call because of contributing
international good will refer to fcc rule book
it reads as follows,amateurs representing their
respective countriesas ambassadorsof goodwill.
ham to ham communications transcend cultural
boundaries,bewtween,societies,it can be an teacher
in nebraska to and trading stories to an ham in london
boarding school headmaster etc,so depending how
you interpret this language,it applys here stateside
as well.

Far as technical aim only internationally well above
explains this and it depends on the host ham country
i have had political discussions with g land and vk
land many times bit with ua or china for example
the conversations are more technical,in nature.

But now that iam on here now i have some additional
comments about this subject,for one thing there is
a lot of dissent on repeater operating by regular
users,because of people telling everyone how
to operate and what discussion content just
simply removes users from using repeaters to
hf like before the rush to vhf simplex etc
everyone used forty seventy five and some
even on ten meters,are doing this again
now more simplex and ten meter ssb fm,
and even forty a lot of operators i can count
five or better refuse to use an repeater because
of the earlier posted statements,simply too
much telling operators what to talk about etc.

Even on my repeater i let everyone talk about
anything as long as it does not violate part-97
auto,mechanics,computers,music,hiking.animals,
religion,politics,current events,even cb radio!!

This must change there are too many repeaters
not being used,frequencies not being used
another part 97,rule proper use of spectrum,

I must also mention another thought about
multiple repeaters sharing an frequency,
i share my frequency with three coordinated
machines here in southern ca,and one uncoordinated
repeater that lost its coordination because
of loss of repeater site equiptment problems etc
but i dont complain as long as it doesnt interfere
with an ongoing qso,fortunately the usage is slow
enough there hasnt been any problems so we can
share if you are willing to try,it can be done
but most repeater coordinees,are greddy and intoand int
an domain type of attitude,or even possesvive,
and into telling you what to do!! this is true
repeater owners simply want to use power over
users,like an landlord,type of attitude,this must
be stopped it is not in compliance with good engineering practice in my opinion so lets get it
together and stop making this hobby an drag or
runned like an capitalistic business.




 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KK6NJ on August 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hello, all amateurs iam an repeater owner here in
southern california and i feel that operators
are told what to do too much when it comes to
repeater use,there seems to be an campaign to
be more restrictive about qso content etc and
returning to all technical talk on the ham
airwaves which i feel is unrealistic,and will
be the ending demise of ham radio if this attitude
continues,it simply will not work.

The arrl and the with fcc approval was the no code
era in 1991 with qso,s without technical content
including politics religion,controversal subject
matter not violating the part 97 rules and regs.

It was fun but in 1995 the world wide web became
an major compeititor,along with the millenium
cb radio netizens band chat lines.later,by the
year 2000 cell phones have pretty much eliminated
most of our autopatches,i hear very little today
even here in southern california.

Now you can scan the two meter band an find only
a few repeaters being used,and some are to busy
telling everyone how it is and what they can
and talk about on these repeaters the major,
instigator is living in the desolate desert,and
those repeaters are quiet,nobody whats to talk
too much telling eceryone what to do!!!

On my repeater,you can talk about anything you
want religion,politics,controversal,subject,matter
etc,as long as part 97 is not violated,but this
is the reason i have my own repeater i dont want
to hear part97-e you cannot talk politics,religion
on my machine.

We will simply get no where far as bringing new operators into this hobby with these attitudes
a matter of fact i may or someone else may file
an peitition to fcc on rule part97-205-E
because it could be challenged in court because
of constitutional,violations of freedom of speech
and seperation of state to practice religion on
certain repeaters apparently part97-205-E
and could be challenged in court as an persons
right to practice religion is an outright violation
of an repeater user,s constitutional right!

The fcc in my opinion should ammend part97-205-E
the revision of an repeater owner cannot deny
the constitutional right,of freedom of speech and
practice of religion because these frequencies do
belong to the public not owned personally by
the repeater owner,regardless of owner of the
equiptment.

Lets face it om,s this attitude technical,only,
is not going to work and keep ham radio alive!!
we cannot afford this discriminitive,attitude!
technical only is unrealistic and outdated!!
besides there is no ruling in part 97 prohibitive
practices stating that religion and politics is
not allowed.

Another point i have to be honest about too is
yes we are supposed to police our commnnity,of
ham radio but lets face it enforcing part-97
to the letter of some earlier quotes,such as
technical aim only,we must not use ham radio
for purposes that can be used in another service
and not on an regular basis is unrealistic,we act
like the fcc and amateur oo,s are running around in
patrol cars looking to write notice of violations
of these nitpicky part 97-sections,now dont get me
wrong now,i do not promote rule breaking but
these particular issues are simply gray,line and
border,line areas of compliance,for example we
are to be technical as an basis and purpose but
discussing religion and idle chit chat is not
prohibited.

Another beef i have with my old elmers in the past
when i operated cb radio in the early seventies
is that my ham friends keep hounding me about
hobby communications being illegal on cb radio,
and reversed in 1975,and to get your ham license
and you can talk about anything you want with more
power and skip shooting is legal,but when you
get into ham radio there is an different picture
that is painted.

also i feel that this part97-205-E
be discriminitive against hams who want to discuss
politics and religion,on repeaters by there owners
because they simply do not respect other peoples
opinions and beliefs,i feel this attitude is going
to ruin ham radio,,people do not want to be told
what to do especially if it violates there constitutional ,rights of liberty and pursuit of
happiness,freedom of press,religion,speech,although
i do believe there is an national campaign un officially,goin on and being implemented to violate
these rights and slowly take them away from us.

Also,worth mentioning the more resistance and
more hassle you present to current operators
and future prospective operators,will simply
say i do not need these hassles and conflict!!
we need to be civilized,not self centered,
and more respectful to everyones beliefs,we need
to take peoples opinions in stride thats your
opinion,dont send the goons after someone who
has dissent against your beliefs!!live and let live
this shutting an repeater off because i voted for
al gore and the repeater owner voted for bushwacker
aka,jr ewing junior,is not right and chicken little
and an violation of this persons constitutional right.
SO CAN WE ALL GET ALONG NOW!!HA,HA,HA,.
OR DO WE NEED TRAING WHEELS STILL FOR OUR BICYCLES:

we simply must stop this telling you how it is !
it has to go or ham radio will simply will not
make it!!!

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KK6NJ on August 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The U.S. Constitution's framers understood that religious liberty can flourish only if the government leaves religion alone. Americans enjoy a degree of religious freedom unknown in most of the rest of the world, and they take full advantage it: the United States is home to more than 1,500 different religious bodies and 360,000 churches, synagogues and mosques.

The free exercise clause of the First Amendment guarantees the right to practice one's religion free of government interference. The establishment clause requires the separation of church and state. Combined, they ensure religious liberty. Yet assaults on the freedom to believe continue, both in Washington and in state legislatures around the country.

CONGRESSIONAL ATTACKS ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY
In yet another election-year tactic, some members of Congress are pushing legislation that would restrict our religious liberty. Several bills being considered this year would forever close the courthouse doors to anyone seeking redress when the government violates their religious freedom and would violate the protections of the First Amendment. These dangerous bills must be stopped.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
97.205(e) in the last sentence simply states that a repeater owner may limit the use of the repeater that they own to certain stations.

Why that bothers you to the point of writing a novel about it is beyond me, but it is no different than me being able to restrict the use of my automobile to certain users and still have to share the roadways with other users.

You said you were a repeater owner. What if I got on your repeater for hours on end, day after day, week after week, month after month and told everyone on your repeater what a moron I thought you were? I would not be breaking any laws. I would also do so in such a way that would be entertaining and believable. I may even record your voice and play it back. I would read the endless tirades you have posted on this very subject on YOUR repeater (and ID every 10 minutes, of course). I would make fun of your religious beliefs or lack thereof and maybe even make verbal caricatures of your family members.

Do you think that you do not have the right to keep me off YOUR repeater if I decided to behave in such an admittedly loathing and disrespectful manner?

97.205(e) is a good rule and needs to be neither changed nor challenged.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA2JJH on August 16, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I see the repeaters as supply and demand.
If a repeater has a poor coverage contour, no group to keep IMOD and other RF problems in check....Why fix what is not broke.

Many 2M groups moved up to 440mhz. UHF repeaters are simply better than VHF repeaters in large towns and cities.

I find plenty of UHF repeaters around. Many 2M repeaters are abandoned due to lack of interest.

Granted repeaters with multiband cross links can of great use. Repeaters with good coverage and a club to provide maintainance/policy, tend to stay around.

Nobody is stopping anybody from starting a new repeater. It is a good idea to check in with a frequency coordinator.

See if you can get some old duplexers with good ca vities from an upgrading commercial repeater. You can then just take two old ham rigs and a repeater controller and go.

I have helped put up a multiband repeater in the past. I just have different interest today.

People have to want repeaters popular again! Repeaters in the 1970s were very hot. I am not trying to curb the authors enthusiasm. I am a realist.

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 16, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Many 2M groups moved up to 440mhz. UHF repeaters are simply better than VHF repeaters in large towns and cities."

Really? I disagree - it depends on the terrain. Around here, the many hills and mountains have a greater "shadowing" effect on 440 than on 2m. Gaps in coverage not as bad as cell, but still more than 2m.

"I find plenty of UHF repeaters around. Many 2M repeaters are abandoned due to lack of interest."

Again, it varies by the area. Few 440 machines here, no real reason to change.

Another factor, of course, is the lesser availability of 440 equipment vs. 2m.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KR4WM on August 16, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
After travelling out west and seeing how one can practically make out individual homes from one side of town all the way to the other for dozens of miles (bowl-shaped terrain) I can see where a ham living in these conditions would think daily long distance contacts on simplex are commonplace. If I lived in one of these bowls, I'm sure I would be able to work the 95 miles snow-free on 440 ATV that the ads state! Trust me when I say you're lucky to get a dozen blocks on 440 ATV where I live. 2M FM simplex here will get you perhaps 15 miles base-to-base*. VHF/FM ground comms are very terrain dependent. Everyone here (I hope) knows the problem gets worse as you go up in frequency. Getting back to the original topic, repeaters are pretty popular here already. We wouldn't be able to talk mobile-to-mobile* to the next town over (15 miles away) without them! -KR4WM

*Base = Gain vertical antenna mounted 50 feet high and running about 50 watts. Mobile = 5/8 whip and 50 watts.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by N6PEH on August 17, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mark, do you run marathons?

"What if I got on your repeater for hours on end, day after day, week after week, month after month and told everyone on your repeater what a moron I thought you were? I would not be breaking any laws. I would also do so in such a way that would be entertaining and believable. I may even record your voice and play it back. I would read the endless tirades you have posted on this very subject on YOUR repeater (and ID every 10 minutes, of course). I would make fun of your religious beliefs or lack thereof and maybe even make verbal caricatures of your family members."

When ever I heard you on my machine, I would tell you that I do not want you using my repeater. If you still persisted in using it, I would turn it off until you went away. If you didn't go away, I would look up your station address on eham, then I would go over to your station with a fire axe and a pair of dykes. Chop, chop, chop, snip, snip, snip, therebye limiting your use of my repeater. If that didn't work, I would assemble a small army of ham nerds with arms funded by drug sales to the southern hemisphere. Then we'd take care of business, there would be war I tell you! WAR!!!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 17, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N6PEH,

Thank you.

All you would have to do is tell me to either behave or stop using your repeater. FCC law would be on your side. 97.205(e) provides for that.

You should not have to resort to breaking the law as you would if the user restriction in 97.205(e) were removed as suggested by KK6NJ.

Again, thanks for helping me illustrate my point.

 
RE: Lets not, it ain't worth all the aggravation a  
by K8MHZ on August 17, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
N6PEH,

"I would be very interested to see any incident, where an amateur was fined by the FCC for the sole reason, that they were using a closed repeater or an open repeater that they were asked not to use, or any variation there of."

Check this out:

(From FCC enforcement letters posted on QRZ.com)


June 19, 2006
Eusebio S. Rodriguez
2716 Marion Avenue #4M
Bronx, NY 10458-3822


RE: Amateur Radio license WB2SEB
Warning Notice
Dear Mr. Rodriguez:

The trustee of the KC2MUI repeater, operated by the E/W Harlem Repeater Club, has requested in writing that you refrain from use of their repeater operating on 444.625/449.625 MHz. The letter was issued as a result of your failure to follow operational rules set forth by the licensee/control operators of the repeater system for its users. You were previously requested verbally to refrain from using the system, but have apparently ignored both verbal and written requests.

The Commission requires that repeaters be under the supervision of a control operator and not only expects, but requires, such control operators and licensees to be responsible for the proper operation of the repeater system. Control operators may take whatever steps are appropriate to ensure compliance with the repeater rules, including limiting the repeater use to certain users, converting the repeater to a closed repeater or taking it off the air entirely.

Please be advised that we expect you to abide by the request to stay off the KC2MUI system and any other such request by a repeater licensee, control operator or trustee. If you use the repeater again after receipt of this letter, we will initiate enforcement action against your license, which may include revocation, monetary forfeiture (fine) or a modification proceeding to restrict the frequencies on which you may operate WB2SEB. Fines normally range from $7,500 to $10,000.

Additionally, we note that your current address is not your address of record in our Amateur Radio Service database. Please take immediate steps to correct your address. Please call me at 717-338-2502 if you have any questions about this matter.

CC: FCC Northeastern Regional Director

 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W8OF on August 17, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Consider this, when VHF became popular (70's & 80's) hams thought the HF bands were dead, but not true, just a decrease in activity until the interest in VHF/UHF decreased. Remember at that time an autopatch from your automobile was considered "high tech" stuff and showing it off made you a popular person with any age group.

Now comes the mid 90's till now. Most hams that previously left there house carried a hand-held two meter radio plus had a mounted mobile in the car. Today the hand-held stays home and the mobile is removed when the car is sold and never placed in the new vehicle therefore you leave the house with your cell phone and "the high tech" music players, who wants to carry a cell phone & a hand-held or needs a mobile radio installed in your car?

Hams can't compete with multipal tower sites linked with microwave and interconnected with the telephone and Internet systems the cell phone vendors so aggresivly advertise.

I've been a ham for over 30 years and have built and maintained several commercial VHF & UHF repeaters converted to the ham bands. My guess is we will see a return to the hobby as the "new kid toys on the block" wear off and things return to somewhat normal OR the repeaters will die a slow death. After all some "computer geeks" I've ran into think our hobby is so low tech they never want to be known as having enjoyed the hobby to begin with and laugh at the thought of using those big hand held radios in comparison to those sleek little razor phones.

Think I'm kidding about there attitude? I engineered a complete 911 system including muiltipal receiver sites, voters, city and county wide comm center and the rest for our city for 27 years and guess what? One of those "computer geeks' wearing the cool "Blackberry" talked himself into my job and I found myself on the outside looking in. Sad thing about it I hired the guy!

Bewear of the person who carries a Blackberry and is a computer geek. They will run you into the mud!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA2JJH on August 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W8OF...My feelings on the matter are the same. Your right on the money.

Before even homeless people had cell phones, we were doomed.

When a cell call was $3.80/minute, I built my own UHF/VHF full duplex phone patch/repeater. I only had a 10 mile radius, but I felt important.

People were in shock-n-awe of my dual band H-T with full telco function. I got many jobs because of it.

I too have been "BLACK-BURIED"!!!!
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Who wants to carry a cell phone & a hand-held or needs a mobile radio installed in your car? "

I do. Other than both being 2-way radios, cell phones and ham radios are completely different things. Example: I hike, and would NEVER go on a mountain hike without both a cell phone and a 2m handheld. The 2m has much better coverage in difficult terrain. (And if one of my grandsons is with me, we both have FRS radios - they work up to about 200 ft.)

Example 2: Before I retired, we had interesting conversations every morning on the way to work among 5 or 6 guys and gals with common interests. Discuss the ball game the night before, or the news, or the local traffic. Can't do that with a cell phone. I will always have a mobile in the car.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by WA2JJH on August 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Your right. One CANNOT roundtable on a celluiod phone.
You should see how it is in NYC. All the YL's have cell phones practicly crazy glued to their heads!!!

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Your right. One CANNOT roundtable on a celluiod phone.
You should see how it is in NYC. All the YL's have cell phones practicly crazy glued to their heads!!! "

Yup, same around here. Lots of chicks suffering from ingrown cellphone. (My city was recently cited as highest cellphone usage in U.S.)

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"You should see how it is in NYC. All the YL's have cell phones practicly crazy glued to their heads!!!"

Here it seems all the YLs around here have a cigarette displayed in one hand (out the window), a cell phone in the other stuck to their head so it can't turn....and driving!

I had to sit through 3 traffic signals behind one of these little personal networking smoke stacks the other day as she was having a hard time doing four hands worth of work with only two hands.

Guess which task took the back seat? Yup, driving!

[pout] "Oh, feel sorry for me, I have been like driving all day and the tops of my knees are like SO bruised." [/pout]
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Your right. One CANNOT roundtable on a celluiod phone."

One sure can. Nextel's Direct Connect has a talkgroup feature that can be set up to do just that.

The feature has to be set up through one of Nextel's offices. All the phones that will be part of the group have to be activated by Nextel and also must be of the same extension prefix, but it can be done. There is also a fee of some sort. We looked into this for an Air Fair we (our ARES group) worked a for a few years. The only thing that stopped us from setting up the talkgroups was the money, as we really didn't have any.

This is for information purposes only as I do not advocate the use of any ISDN device as a replacement for ham radio.

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""Your right. One CANNOT roundtable on a celluiod phone."

One sure can. Nextel's Direct Connect has a talkgroup feature that can be set up to do just that.

The feature has to be set up through one of Nextel's offices. All the phones that will be part of the group have to be activated by Nextel and also must be of the same extension prefix, but it can be done. There is also a fee of some sort. We looked into this for an Air Fair we (our ARES group) worked a for a few years. The only thing that stopped us from setting up the talkgroups was the money, as we really didn't have any.

This is for information purposes only as I do not advocate the use of any ISDN device as a replacement for ham radio. "

You still couldn't do it like we did. We chatted continuously, for over 1/2 hour, with no gaps in coverage and no "dropped calls".
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by KC7QDO on August 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I don't think there is really a way to do that to be honest.

There is some moderate useage for extending range. In part with more people able to go to HF now reduces the VHF users.

Then with the newer hams only having one radio at home and not in their new car reduces that as well.

Bruce D Horish
(kc7qdo)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"You still couldn't do it like we did. We chatted continuously, for over 1/2 hour, with no gaps in coverage and no "dropped calls"."

I don't know why not. The talkgroups use the two way feature called Direct Connect. I don't see where using Direct Talk would be out of the picture either.

One thing is for sure, ham radio would not have the delay and the choppy tinny audio that Nextel has.

I really hate what cell phones sound like. Especially since digital took over. There are many times when a ham friend will call me on a cell phone and the signal is so bad that I have to tell him three times to go to a certain repeater. Once he gets the message we have no probs as there is always a repeater we can work and actually hear each other.

Now most of our cell calls consist of 'where are you, what repeater are you on?'

Repeaters are very popular with me already!
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4UUG on August 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
THE CURMUDGEONS HAVE CAUSED MANY REPEATERS NOT TO BE USED !

" CURMUDGEON " a crusty ill-tempered old man.

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K3QS on August 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Scott, your suggestions seem to take me back to the 70's and 80's when community repeaters were used with multi-tone panels. Those systems left a lot to be desired, and that's one reason trunked systems were developed.

Lumping all the traffic in a given area on just a few channels with separate tones to keep the users from hearing each other does make the few channels more active, but what is the purpose for that?

Present day communications systems like cellular phones and trunking systems were developed to make a circuit available when a user needs (wants) it, without having to wait. The multitude of ham repeaters we now have has the same effect. What's wrong with that?

If you want more activity, get on the air and get some QSOs going. PL hasn't stopped activity. The internet has.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""You still couldn't do it like we did. We chatted continuously, for over 1/2 hour, with no gaps in coverage and no "dropped calls"."

I don't know why not. The talkgroups use the two way feature called Direct Connect. I don't see where using Direct Talk would be out of the picture either."

Even with that feature, you are still talking about cellphones, with their coverage gaps and dropped calls. As for "Direct Talk", remember, we were miles apart, often 50 or more.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"As for "Direct Talk", remember, we were miles apart, often 50 or more."

Without a tower near that would be a problem.

Don't get me wrong, there are drawbacks. But a 'roundtable' can be done on cellphones. We need to realize this (denial?) because the fact that Nextel even has the feature suggests some consumer demand for it.

The Direct Connect talkgroup allows for one cellphone to be heard by all the others in the group. This does not happen 'real time' as there is a lag, and just like with the normal Direct Connect if someone else is transmitting no one else can. The PTT will just beep when it is pressed. There is also that nasty digital quality to contend with.

On the plus side, Direct Connect also allows for one on one SECURE communications at the same time.

Also, every form of radio communication has gaps in coverage. Even ham radio. You were just fortunate that you did not experience it. True, we have the ability to fill the gaps once they are discovered, but they still do exist.

I think we should play with the Direct Connect talkgroups a little to see what the other issues with them may be and to learn from them as well. Ham radio may be able to adopt some of the technology in some way in the quest for improvement.
 
Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K1LDS on August 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I agree that the subaud tone situation makes it very difficult for travelers to access repeaters. A solution to this would be the adoption of a nationwide "Transient Tone" (say, 100.0Hz) for open repeaters, but really, I do prefer the idea that the repeaters should be no-tone, with individual groups using tones on their own rigs.

I agree that there are too many repeaters in some areas (while there are none covering other areas). And they are mostly underused! But how do you decide who does and does not deserve to have a repeater? Prior use? Coverage? Quality of equipment? Trial by Stone?
 
Lets Not Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by G8KHS on August 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Aptly described by its very name the nature of repeaters is repetitive, and rapidly becomes boring. You listen to the same thing every day, traffic reports and repeater junkies. If you own a vhf or vhf/uhf radio capable of other modes, try them out, turn that beam horizontal, work some tropo or go fm simplex at the very least and get out of the rut. Maybe it's not as easy to use as a repeater, but you'll have a lot more fun because it's real ham radio operating and not handed to you on a plate. You don't eat the same food every day, so why not try a new flavor with a mode you've not used before. I'm sure you'll have a great time!

73, G8KHS
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
""As for "Direct Talk", remember, we were miles apart, often 50 or more."

Without a tower near that would be a problem."

Yep, sure would.

"Don't get me wrong, there are drawbacks. But a 'roundtable' can be done on cellphones. We need to realize this (denial?) because the fact that Nextel even has the feature suggests some consumer demand for it."
---------------------
A business function, I doubt if people who have never met would be setting up to join such a group, as is routine on a repeater.

But my point is that what we do is routinely done, is naturally done by ham radio, and is done by those little cell toys only in a complex manner and at considerable expense. Our roundtables cost zero.

I have both a handsfree cellphone system in my car and a 2m/440 rig. They are both there because they serve different purposes. NEITHER can replace the other. They are two different things. That's the only point I was making.
 
RE: Lets Not Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4JF on August 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"If you own a vhf or vhf/uhf radio capable of other modes, try them out, turn that beam horizontal, work some tropo or go fm simplex at the very least and get out of the rut. Maybe it's not as easy to use as a repeater, but you'll have a lot more fun because it's real ham radio operating and not handed to you on a plate. You don't eat the same food every day, so why not try a new flavor with a mode you've not used before. I'm sure you'll have a great time! "

Absolutely correct, John! Ham radio is such a wide and varied hobby/service that there is absolutely no excuse for anyone claiming to be "bored" or "tired of it", or "I don't like (repeaters, HF, whatever) and am going to quit".

I've been in it for 31+ years and I'm still finding new things to try.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K8MHZ on August 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"A business function, I doubt if people who have never met would be setting up to join such a group, as is routine on a repeater."

So true!!

I never said there wasn't more to ham radio than the technology.

Your point is well taken and appreciated.
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by K4UUG on August 23, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KK6
"CONGRESSIONAL ATTACKS ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY "
MORE LIKE DEMOCRAT ATTACKS ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY
 
RE: Lets Not Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by G8KHS on August 23, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for your reply Jim K4JF, I was licenced in '75 and hope to stay interested for the rest of my time on this planet. There are so many things to do in ham radio that it can never be boring. I still get a big high out of it after all these years, glad its the same for you. Next project is to try out 6m ssb mobile horizontally polarized, never done it yet, but it you can bet it sure will be fun. To all other hams, give something new a go and if you don't like it, well there are plenty of other things to try!

73 es gd dx

John G8KHS
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular/Enjoyable Again  
by W8OF on August 23, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Cell phone for sale. As I get close to retirement I am getting rid of my cell phone (don't want serious people calling me anymore)and have placed a mobile in each vehicle + put a 462 Mhz GMRS on the air to talk to my family members who will probably not get a ham license. Not going to pay that $45 bucks a month for a dial tone dittie to carry around. Still have the autopatch on our repeaters and it works great.

One good decent thing the repeaters do is keep a ham community together and communicating. Nets are good and any other means to keep your local folks using the bands and forming a bond of "unity" in your community. Lets support the effort and let our maintenance guys know we appreciate there time and trouble keeping repeaters on-the-air. They are an important link to unity!

Lots of things to do on the bands, all of them but the repeaters are a common ground for most of us. I sure would hate to see them disappear!

I'm getting tired of that guy asking "can you hear me now"? If he had a good hand held he wouldn't be asking and as for the cell phones, well waiting on Scottie to "Beam me up"
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular Again  
by W9WHE-II on August 24, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"A coordination group needs to be formed to geographically determine which repeaters are required and which are duplicitous and not required for the area they cover".


Wow.
So we "need" repeater police to determine whether or not I should be able to operate a repeater? What next? Ham police to determine whether I should be able to operate HF?

 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular/Enjoyable Again  
by K4JF on August 24, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W8OF said: "Lots of things to do on the bands, all of them but the repeaters are a common ground for most of us. I sure would hate to see them disappear!

I'm getting tired of that guy asking "can you hear me now"? If he had a good hand held he wouldn't be asking and as for the cell phones, well waiting on Scottie to "Beam me up" "

Absolutely correct. (Love that call!!)
 
RE: Lets Make Repeaters Popular/Enjoyable Again  
by WA2JJH on August 25, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
UHF repeaters are in use all the time in my neck of the woods.

70cm actually opened up the other day. We were getting repeaters from 30miles away just slightly off the input.

2M repeater use is way down. We had some really decent ones back in the late 70's.
Jamming and inexpensive commercial UHF H-T's and mobiles were yet another reason why 2M was abandoned.

We really enjoy our UHF repeaters. So we have nothing to ""MAKE POPULAR"" again. UHF being of smaller wavelength allows a UHF H-T work inside buildings(with many windows of course).

For more flat terrained area's, I am sure there is a decent amount of 2M activity. 2M got stale when 2M synth. radio's became the norm.

Is it not supply and demand? If there was a demand for 2M AGN, for sure some motivated hams would supply 2M RPTRS. Simple as that.
 
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