A Radio for ARES

The frequency knob could be pushed in and turned for faster tuning or scanning. A simple memory operation would be good. The radio should come with a Li-ion battery pack that will let you operate until the cows come home and then swap in alkaline batteries so you can keep talking until long after the cows leave home again. Finally a true easy to use radio for A.R.E.S. groups!

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A Radio for ARES

by WB7RSG on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Good idea. It's about time that we admitted to ourself that most hams are far to stupid to comprehend modern communication methods, or have any hope of figuring out how to operate a broadly capable transceiver.

I suspect that competent emergency communicators want radios that are capable of every mode they know about.

Most hams that I have any respect for, are able to learn just about anything they need to know pretty quickly. I think the cure for overly complicated radios has less to do with the hardware and more to do with our culture of ignorance.

73 DE WB7RSG

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KA4KOE on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Sounds like for HF regional comms you need to get a Vertex Standard VX-1210.

A Radio for ARES

by N9XCR on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I like your line of thinking. "How can we make things easier?" It's unfortunate, though, that you'll probably get responses from those who see no reason to try and make things better. Ignore those who don't have anything better do do than bitch-slap with words.

There are radios out there that already do what you're looking for in a radio. Some of the people I know in RACES like to use Motorola HT's. I don't know if it's due to their rugedness, the features you're looking for, or both.

The radios are programmed for the frequencies they would normally use and, should something else come up, they can always use their other amateur radios. They can be very affordable as well, all depending on what you're looking for. Do a search on eBay for GP300. You can pick them up for around, if not less than, $100.

Have fun!
Chris
N9XCR

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K0BG on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Considering the number of amateurs who post help questions about programming their new handheld even though they have the manual, I can't help but wonder what would happen in an emergency. What the hey happened to the KISS system?

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KG4RUL on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Berkeley County South Carolina ARES has standardized on the Yaesu FT2800M for 2M radios. Each radio kit will have an 8 1/2"x11", double sided sheet with operating instructions. ALL frequencies are preprogrammed including standard simplex frequencies and ,the VFO is locked out. We simply treat them like Public Service radios.

Dennis KG4RUL
Information Officer

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W4LGH on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

How much more simple can a 2m HT be? Come on, lets be real here...if one can't work their HT, then they have no business in ARES. Have a class @ your ARES meeting and get your best people to program their HTs for them. Most ALL HTs today can LABEL the channel. Label them ARES1, ARES2, etc. If they can't work them then, you need to find new people. This is SCARY, and I guess just another ONE of the reasons I resigned as the ARES EC for my county.

And there are companies out there that make a very simple radio to work..its called CB. Turn it on, select a channel and call for help. And I am NOT trying to be ugly, or flame anyone... I just had 4 years of going thru all of this over and over. At the first sign of trouble, you don't have to worry about them knowing how to work their radio, as they have usually left the area.

Good luck...I wish ARES all the best, but I just don't see it happening. Guess its like everything else the ARRL touches...turns to a pile of .... well you know.

73 de W4LGH - ALAN
EX ARES EC, and happy just playing radio!

A Radio for ARES

by N3NL on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

This sounds great. Where can I buy this type of radio?
73, Nick Leggett, N3NL

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AA4PB on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Dennis has the key. Let someone who knows the radio pre-program it with what you will need for ARES operation. All the "user" will need is the channel selector, volume, squelch (maybe), and on/off. Simple equates to "few features". No sooner than you remove features you'll be complaining that the radio won't do what you need for some special application. Most commercial radios take the features away from the user and require the radio to be pre-programmed by a technician in the shop by using special software.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W4CNG on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

At the Atlanta-Fulton County EMA we have two operating positions. One is HF/VHF/UHF the other is VHF/UHF. Both are pre-programmed for ONLY local Atlanta Area Repeaters. The HF Rig has the VHF/UHF and both State ARES HF Frequencies (75/40 meters) in them with TEXT ID's. Dial up and TALK. There is NO CW Key at the EMA. There is a log book, Traffic handling message pads, and instruction manuals for both rigs in 3 ring binders. Got a problem, open the manual and READ. We also require the 100 and 700 series FEMA courses plus ARECC001 to operate the stations.

Steve W4CNG ADEC Metro-Atlanta

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC2QFG on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Spoken like a true engineer, WB7RSG. You take a laudable idea (achieving simplicity) and turn it into a geek's version of a macho self-centered pissing contest (I can understand complex devices. If you advocate simplified devices it must be because you are too dumb or lazy to master what I have mastered.)

Simplicity needs no apologists. Simpler is better. Emergency devices are, by definition, used in times of urgency and distress. The simpler the design the less likely it is that an even very capable operator might make a critical error. Another reason simpler would be better is that the skilled operator may be injured or dead and a non-expert may have to use the device. And finally, it's impossible to predict all possible failure modes. Simplicity is a general, non-specific way to try to try to ensure a device will be useable even if it has to be used in situations and under conditions which we cannot now anticipate.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W0IPL on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Sound great Matt. I think I had one of those about twenty five years ago. I think it was called crystal controlled.

Or you could get an IC-F11. Sixteen frequencies, synthesized with on-off, scan and channel the only controls. Oh, the really good part, it's type accepted and only $250 with an 1100 Mil. batt and drop in charger.

For those that can walk and chew gum at the same time there is the FT-60 with 1K memories (means you program in EVERY 2M and 70Cm (FM) frequency and set up all of your ARES/RACES frequencies in one of the ten banks.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KE7EZE on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I'll throw something in here...

What I would like to see is a radio (HT and mobile with keypad mic) with numerous programmable buttons. That way you can tailor it to what you use it for.

I know most have multifunction buttons, but wouldn't it be nice to program them to be EXACTLY what you want? You could then make the radio as simple or as complicated as you want.

My VX-6R has a few buttons that you can change the function of, but I would like to change a few more.

Bryan, KE7EZE

RE: A Radio for ARES

by N6AJR on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

ya mean something like the alinco 190,or a rat shack htx202 or 404??

there are a ton of easy to program radios out there, my problem is that I have like 8 or 9 hts, most are different from each other and they all program different. so I keep the m,anual handy, program them the put the manual where I think I may find it later.

the problem is most radios need about 5 or 6 inputs to work, go to vfo, enter freq, enter type of squelch ( tone), enter the tone freq, enter the offset, enter the power level, and then save it to an open memory channel,m them go to memory mode.. nowhere in the manual does it string these all together.

it ain't hard. if you cna't do it someone in the group can, ask them to show you.

its jsut a radio, not rockey surgery

A Radio for ARES

by AI2IA on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

No reason to get hostile when someone cares enough to submit an artice with good intentions!
A simple radio just for emergency use seems like a good idea. Who wouldn't stop and examine one at a ham show? The trouble is that you need a real market for them. Would hams buy them? We can all talk about the complexity/simplicity issue, but I think it would go a long way to have an H/T that large hands with big fingers can use easily, especially if those large hands belong to a ham with the vision problems brought on by advancing age.
You see, I can operate my H/Ts well enough. I can progam them, too! I am slow at doing this because the buttons are quite tiny. The LC display is microscopic, and I use a magnifying glass to read the labels on the buttons and to identify some of the icons on the display that would otherwise look like fleas. Maybe a good place to start is with the surface features.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8MHZ on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Wow, hot topic!

Alan, you have never owned a Yaesu FT-50. It takes four keystrokes to set the squelch. The radio has more bells and whistles than anyone would ever use.

One of my main gripes about ARES is that there is a good portion of operators that can't use operate their own radios. Part of this is the fault of the operator, but a large part of the blame falls on the manufacturer.

We have a contest called a Radio Race. A frequency, offset, PL Tone, etc, is called out by the judge and the first one to get their call on that frequency wins. Great fun and helps fix this very annoying problem.

Not all rigs are unnecessarily complex, but many are. To have one designed for Em Comm with simplicity in mind is not a bad idea at all.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

It's about time that we admitted to ourself that most hams are far to stupid to comprehend modern communication methods,

----------

I suppose you work in public relations huh?

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W1XZ on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

W4LGH is rightly frustrated. If you can't program an HT what business have you being into emergency communications? We take a test for a reason. That reason is to make sure we have basic concepts of radio communications. Modern radio programming is a BASIC concept...no wait...it is is way before basic. If I was dying in a ditch after the big one the LAST person I want contacting a medical professional in my behalf is someone who doesn't know how to operate their own radio. The simple radio is fine, but what happens if the op moves or helps out in another town? Somewhere, sometime someone needs to program the frequency and perhaps a tone and assign it a "channel" in a radio. Who better than the operator and the owner of the radio? Is it asking too much to ask that those supplying communications for all those emergencies know how to get on the air in a moments notice, be on the right frequency, and be able to actually communicate?

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AA4PB on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

To have one designed for Em Comm with simplicity in mind is not a bad idea at all.
---------------------------------------------------
It's not, but I'll bet the mfg who does that won't sell very many. Most hams buy their radios for daily use and they generally go for the one that's got the most features for the dollar. Most features are a matter of firmware so once the engineering is done it doesn't cost the mfg any more to include them. Yes, they could make the radio big with individual knobs but the average ham would go for the cute, small little rig that is loaded with features.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by WD8SEOWV on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Stupid is as stupid does

A Radio for ARES

by K5MAR on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I keep 4 HTX-202 HTs for handing out to those HF-only snobs that suddenly discover they can't use their fancy HF rigs and bugs to communicate with the local command post or a shelter. I can reprogram them for these VHF-challenged operators in just a few minutes if need be, and it's difficult for them to screw up the settings.

The Tech operators I have are the technically-superior ones who can get the computers and other advanced systems up and running, leaving me free to hold the hands of the Extra-heavy operators I've assigned to roadblock or mobile canteen duties.

Mark - K5MAR
AEC - Payne County, OK

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W1XZ on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Without being classist about my thoughts on encomm I can say that the legnth of a callsign has very little to do with ability. There are techs and extras who memorized the answers to the test and have no clue as to what they are doing. My agrivation and displeasure is with individuals who simply should not be operating or licensed for that matter. To make broad comments about extra heavy ops and HF only snobs only leads to ask what that has to do with operating skills. My comments were directed at licensed amateur operators who can't program a radio for emergency communications and what that says about their ability to be effective in a crisis.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8QV on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

A ham that can't operate his own radio? I mean, a ham that CAN'T OPERATE HIS OWN RADIO??????

First the tests are too difficult for morons to pass, now the radios used by hundreds of thousands are also too difficult for the same group? Is this the Twilight Zone?

Forget "When all else fails" because everything has already failed. We've accepted the sub-standard as our new benchmark.

A Radio for ARES

by K0CBA on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Can you say M o t o r o l a ??

Too polysalavic?? Try saying G E !

They are rough, tough, dependable AND are designed to be operated by folks that haven't even passed the highly challanging CFT license test.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by WN3R on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I know I'm getting old when I can't remember how to "re-" program my HT nor see the tiny buttons, legends, or the display messages.

Modern HT's are fairly easy to program with the manual when it's brand new. But I don't take the manual into the field, do you? Hell, I can't even find it.

Program a new frequency with a PL tone and odd offset? You might as well put a gun to my head and pull the trigger.

I have lots of gear which I operate infrequently. But I only remember how to use my OMNI V.

Does that make me a "bad" or "stupid" ham? I don't think so, but I will admit to failing eyesight and memory. As a new ham, 50 years ago I knew everything (just like most kids).

It's no secret, I like simple to use radios.

(yes, I AM looking for the HT manual)

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NI0C on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I fail to see the problem here.

There are a bazillion VHF/UHF HT's out there-- they are reviewed in QST nearly every month. Can't you read the reviews and come to an informed decision on the best one for your application?

As N6AJR said, programming these units is not rocket science, it's a matter of following directions. Operating them is a piece of cake, once you've programmed them.

If the menus and programmable features of today's units are too much for you to cope with, you can shop around at hamfests and get simpler units for a song.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W4LGH on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

K8QV, "A Ham Radio operator that doesn't know how to operate their radio... Forget "When all else fails" because everything has already failed. We've accepted the sub-standard as our new benchmark."

Welcome to the Entitlement Generation! Scary isn't it!
Another reason I threw in the towel.. and play radio all on my own.

When the real emergency hits, no one is gonna be able to hold anybodys hands!

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W1XZ on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

If you used your HT for emergency communications, yes I would think you should know how to program it, but if you are a casual op, why shouldn't you look at the manual. I use my digital camera once a month and still have to occasionally look the manual for the seldom (if ever) used functions.
Other threads talk about ARES/RACES ops being first responders to dire emergencies. I would expect that they would be totally familiar with their number one means of communications. If you can't program an HT and need to have a channelized Motorola who may I ask programs the Motorola? This hobby is about the ability to communicate using the medium of RF. If you choose to be totally involved with something as serious as life and death situations you need to be able to properly use the tools of the trade. If you use your HT at a flea market to meet up with your buddies i have no problem with having to look at the manual to program a frequency and tone.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8QV on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

W4LGH - Yes, very scary. I guess we're in the minority by thinking people should actually learn and know something. We've been told that our very life on earth depends on the organized, certified, and well-equipped amateur radio operator. Now it comes out that many don't know how to operate their own equipment. Maybe that subject should be included with their extensive training. Make them actually operate their own radio before they get certification. If unable to do that, then perhaps they could head up FEMA. Incompetence starts at the very top!

Damn Japanese engineers. They made everything too complicated for us Americans! Not our fault.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I can memorize every character and letter in CW but apparently I can't seem to memorize all my menu's features and functions of my own radio equipment... strange huh?

I can figure it out though.. eventually through trial and error on occasion.

I think part of the problem is that I have many different radios and each one of them has different ways to program them. If I don't use one of them for a while, then that's where the problems start.

When in doubt, make up or buy field reference cards to operate the various functions/menus of your radio equipment.

73

A Radio for ARES

by N9ESH on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

QUOTE
I keep 4 HTX-202 HTs for handing out to those HF-only snobs that suddenly discover they can't use their fancy HF rigs and bugs to communicate with the local command post or a shelter. I can reprogram them for these VHF-challenged operators in just a few minutes if need be, and it's difficult for them to screw up the settings.

The Tech operators I have are the technically-superior ones who can get the computers and other advanced systems up and running, leaving me free to hold the hands of the Extra-heavy operators I've assigned to roadblock or mobile canteen duties. UNQUOTE

.....................................................

How arrogantly repugnant can one person get? This was a thread about the use of simple radios, not a “lets bash HF and CW ops”. Glad I got out of ARES a long time ago and left it to the CBers & GMRSers.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NS6Y_ on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I'd vote for the Vertex-Standard VX-1210 for HF, and the Yaesu VX-170 for 2m, both simple, durable, and effective.

A Radio for ARES

by W7STS on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Personally, I would want the radio to be a dual band with cross band repeat. I suspect that anyone who's ever done an event can remember needing a range extender, and although I don't do it often, it's something that I would want in my "simple" radio.

Also, Nifty has some excellent operational aids which are relatively inexpensive. I have their products and the radio manual in my go kits.

While I don't used all the bells and whistles of my radios, I do make it a point to program it for every event so that I stay competent in the basic operation of the radio. Several events get the range extention programmed in so that I will have it without thinking about it at the event. Practice makes perfect!

Also, I read a thread about teaching the radio in your ARES class. In the Phoenix area, we require students to bring the manual for their handhelds to class, because WE KNOW they will need it for doing a non-standard split, or for setting tones.

Good thread

73's
Rick Aldom - W7STS
SEC Arizona Section

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC0VCU on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

While a 'simple' radio makes some sense, I strongly suspect that it is not going to be a viable solution.

First problem is keeping track of the radios. Since most of us are more than willing to carry around these rigs with rather complicated setups, a 'simple' radio is most likely going to be left on a shelf in a ham shack some place, either never getting it's batteries charged or maintained. or is going to have to be maintained by someone with that task on a schedule.

That would mean that same someone would have to keep track of a bunch of radios they aren't using. And when exercises or events happen, would have to be available to hand the radios out as well. That doesn't seem like a good plan either.

Since most ARES, RACES, etc. groups already have a set of frequencies, repeaters, tones, and codes that they are going to be using. Publishing that information so that hams who have any interest at all in participating would be able to pre-program a bank or even set up a file with those freqencies all set up for their radios (presuming that the radio can be quickly re-programmed from a pc) seems to me to be a far better idea. Recomended labels for each frequency would be a good idea as well, (so when a net-control says to take that discussion to net4 or contact the controll on redcross1 there is less likely to be a question regarding what channel that is.)

Some people may decide that there are enough available channels on a MT1000 or SP300 to include their favorite repeaters on some otherwise unused channels, and simply start carrying one of those instead.

Likewise a few people will be more than happy to have a couple of extra handhelds around that they can hand out to hams that can't get up to speed quickly during an event. Who knows that 2m/70cm rig you pulled out of your car when you went to that latest/greatest rig, can probably be programmed and set up in a tackle box with a magmount antenna to be used in an emergency next time. (Or donate it temporarily to that new ham that you are elmering so that he can get on the air.)

But, yeah, a simple radio that is already set up to go for ARES (or othe groups) does sound like a good idea to me too.

73,

-Rusty - kc0vcu

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W4LGH on September 28, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

You know, what made ham radio always work in the past, was that each operator operated as an individual "self contained" cell. We had our own radios, backup power and we knew how to use our equipment and we got thru to someone who could pass any msg along.

Now....we want to follow a govt example and standard by doing "FORMAL" msg & trafic handling, on FORMAL MSG PADS, we want a SIMPLE radio, all just alike, cloned with the same frequencies, and one person to be responsible for these radios and see to it that each operator gets one in times of trouble. (despite the fact that the city you are in has been seperated by a major flood, you're on the north end of town and your ops are on the southern end) What is this sounding like people?? Ham radio, hell no, sounding more like FEMA or any other govt agency. Wake up and smell the coffee guys. Start thinking for yourself again, and stop being dependant on someone else. If you want to work emergency communications, set your station up to operate independently from anything else. Back up power, backup antennas, backup radios and know how to operate the equipment you own. Stay home and work your communications, and not rush off to mimic your "served" govt agency...they can screw it up without your help with their cloned radios that won't talk to other departments, formal rules and red tape they created.

Just sit back and think about it for a little while, look over articles from the history books. You can't prepair for a disaster that hasn't happened, no matter how many drills you go thru. You can however be better equiped to handle the disaster by knowing your own equipment, how to use it, and operating independantly.

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

A Radio for ARES

by VK4DGG on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I am surley not going to demean anyones intelligence if they have trouble operating a radio. However, one notion has occured to me about radio use. These new designs of radios be they either handheld or HF require something that many Hams are loathe to do. READING THE MANUAL. The newer designs have so many hidden features and controls that can only be seen by going into menu mode, that there is little chance they can "intuitively" figure out how to use it. Older more experienced Hams are sometimes the worst of the lot. They come from a time when most VHF/UHF rigs were cryatal controlled and most HF rigs only had a few controls on the front panel and zero menu functions. In those days it was, tune, load, mic gain, maybe a speech compressor, VHF/UHF was channel selector, volume, squelch. Now even relatively small, "simple" rigs have many functions not even found on the most expensive and sophisticated radios. My little FT 817 5 watt hamshack in a box has dozens of funtions and is capable of working most all of the Ham bands. It is so complex a fellow has started a busines selling a smaller simpler and sturdier manual. It needs to be sturdier as you need to use it more.

Thats my 2 cents worth.
73's
Mark
KD4TOQ/VK4DGG

A Radio for ARES

by KQ6Q on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Simple radios are an excellent idea - everyone should have at least one! My primary HT is an Icom T-81A - extremely awkward to program - I have it set up with all forseeable frequencies in memories with alpha tags. BUT, in my jump kit, I carry an HTX-202 and an HTX-404 - either to use myself, or to lend to others deployed with me.
One other point - single band radios are excellent - if you try to listen to two active repeaters on an HT with dual receive, you'll miss most or all of the traffic on the secondary channel. Use two HT's, you can hear all the traffic on both. Have one on speaker, the other on an earbud. The next new HT I buy will be a single-band 220 radio. Otherwise, multiband with 220. But if I didn't already have the 202/404 pair, I'd get the new simple, single-band models for each band for ARES operations.

A Radio for ARES

by N0IU on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

K8MHZ wrote, "One of my main gripes about ARES is that there is a good portion of operators that can't use operate their own radios. Part of this is the fault of the operator, but a large part of the blame falls on the manufacturer."

I don't recall seeing any manufacturers holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to buy any particular radio! The manufacturers are in business to make money and they do so by responding to the needs and wants of the marketplace. Apparently the market wants shirt-pocket sized radios the are rich with features.

As others have said, knowing how to use your radio is the FIRST thing one needs to know BEFORE they become involved in emergency communications. If you can't operate your own radio, you made a bad choice!

Scott N0IU

RE: A Radio for ARES

by N3HKN on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Some real nuts here. Simple radios in times of an emergency are a must. In the usual confusion of an event you do not want to accidently push one of the MANY buttons and disable the HT.

If the advocates of complex HTs for ARES look at police radios they might see that their positions are bogus.

N3HKN

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KE4SKY on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

A few years ago we did a group buy on ICOM commercial landmobile radios for people in our state RACES organization who were likely to deploy in mutual aid situations anywhere statewide. The radios were cloned up with the same "personality" and settings, with both amateur and in one case where authorized, a very few local governmment frequencies in them. Each memory bank was set up with the repeater frequencies for District, and the repeaters in each bank had plain planguage alpha numeric tags to identify them.
The simplex channels were all programmed in one bank, the radios were also enabled with digital page and selective calling. While it takes some expertise to establish the initial settings, the program can be saved on a laptop, an individal radio can be modified slightly via an interface if an individual has specific needs. Multilples can be cloned alike.

You do lose user-programable frequency agility "on the fly." But if your group has an established communciation pla, and all radios are programmed alike, the rigs are "lead pipe" simple.

The front buttons toggle high and low transmit power, repeater offset (talk-around) on/off, scan tag on/off, and "monitor." They work just like a commercial radio, turn it on, select the memory bank or talk group, and use the up/down arrows to select the channel. Hang the mic up and it scans the tagged channels. Take the mic off the hangup clip and it stops on the paused channel, you look at the display, and know which it is, and it lets you talk there. Put the mic back on the hanger and it resumes scan.

Amazing, just like my work radio! My VHF and VHF ortables are set up the same way and aren't ham rigs either.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

The radios were cloned up with the same "personality" and settings, with both amateur and in one case where authorized, a very few local governmment frequencies in them. Each memory bank was set up with the repeater frequencies for District,

-------------------

I took a similar "univeral" approach to programming my radio. I decided on a 256 ch. Motorola Systems Saber. I had it preprogrammed for every possible repeater combination and a variety of simplex frequencies.

These are all setup in banks. For example bank 10 contains all possible WX frequencies. Bank 9 is all 2 meter simplex frequencies etc.. etc..

No need to program anything. I can travel anywhee across the country and the radio will works.

PL's are already preprogrammed into the readio and are to choosen from the "P1" button. The "P2" button puts the radio in "talkaround" mode. The "P3" button can be programmed for reverse frequency operation.

3 buttons on the keypad does it all. The battery in this brick outlasts any ham HT I ever owned.

73 KC8VWM

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NI0C on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

N3HKN wrote: "In the usual confusion of an event you do not want to accidently push one of the MANY buttons and disable the HT."

My Kenwood TH-F6 (probably above average in terms of complexity) has a LOCK button to prevent such mishaps. So do most of the other HT's available.

"advocates of complex HTs for ARES "

I think the people that you refer to as "nut cases" are advocating the following:

A. Researching the specifications and features of the many available HT's before purchase.
B. Reading the instructions and programming the HT before the disaster happens.
C. Learning the operating features and limitations of the radio.

Isn't it reasonable to expect such common-sense steps to be followed by a licensed radio amateur radio operator?

So why does the world need another VHF/UHF handie-talkie?

For those who can't cope with their HT's there's always the FRS.

A Radio for ARES

by NA4IT on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I agree some radios could be a little easier to program...but that is where I stop.

"Handy talkies and repeaters are the lifeblood of most A.R.E.S. groups."

True statement. Smart? NO. Learn to operate S I M P L E X. And get an HF license and operate HF. Easiest way to learn to operate any radio is to USE it. I own a Yaesu FT-8800, an FT-60, and an Icom IC706MKIIG, all highly menu driven, and very seldom have to crack the manuals. Why? I USE them day in day out. On voice, packet, APRS, Pactor, etc.

"The radio should come with a Li-ion battery pack that will let you operate until the cows come home and then swap in alkaline batteries so you can keep talking until long after the cows leave home again."

I think some radio's battery packs have gotten better. My FT-60 stays up for days. But, if you plan to operate an HT, two of the most important accessories are the AA battery pack and alkaline AA batteries...yes alkaline...you may not be near a charger for DAYS.

AND...while you are on the air learning how to use your radio, tune in to a traffic net and learn how to receive (remember, listen much, say little) and send traffic. NTS, formal, FEMA format, etc learn to do it.

Next drill, sit down with one of the old guys and learn.

It is FAR more important that one has operating skills learned via experience than the knowledge out of an EMCOMM book. Good experience and common sense goes a long way!

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W5ESE on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

This is a good thread.

One thing the author mentioned that needs amplifying
is the importance of having a blank dry cell holder,
and along with that, the importance of selecting an
HT that function adequately off the dry cell pack.

Some rigs on the market today only transmit limited
power when used with the dry cell battery pack.

Having a 12v cable option available makes sense, too.

73
Scott
W5ESE

A Radio for ARES

by W5PFG on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

If you want a radio that has limited user control, you need to go to a commercial radio. They are computer programmed and all the user can select is a "channel," adjust the volume, and adjust the squelch.

I've heard the statement about "the dumbing down of ham radio" before and it this topic certain brings it alive again. Where is our sense of desire to learn and "show our stuff?"

What about spending a few minutes a week running through your radios menus and learning its capabilities? You might find something new, neat, and perhaps USEFUL.

If your concern is with others in your team using the radio in a time of emergency, try standardizing on a certain radio and doing a bulk purchase. If at least most of the users are working with Kenwoods, or Yaesus, or Icoms, at least they will have some familiarity. Maybe even consider a meeting where everyone gets to handle each other's HT's....

What about bringing a photocopy of the radio's manual with you on assignment?

Yaesu, Icom, and Kenwood all make simple, single-band 2m radios in both mobile and HT format. Yes, they have 1000 memories, but you don't need to use them all.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KE4SKY on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Agree that this is a great thread!

Older, simple "brick" HTs such as the ICOM 02AT, Radio Shack HTZX202, some older Yaesus, the Azden HT, and the Standard C158, C228, C558 were intuitive to operate, very rugged, and perfect for ARES / RACES / Skywarn applications.

What is needed today is a ham version of the ICOM F21GM. This GMRS radio is very widely used in CERT programs here. It comes pre-loaded with all GMRS repeater pairs and the interstitial simplex channels 1 through 7 which are common with FRS inbedded in Eprom. PL and DPL are user selectable by key combinations, as are transmit power, repeat or takaround, scan tag, monitor, etc. Of course it is very limited being GMRS-FRS only, not being user programmable and having having only those channels. Freqs are dial-selectable and there is no LCD display, and the small selector numbers 1-16 are hard to read without your glasses, and you need to laminate a PC print-out cheat sheet to the battery pack to keep them straight in your head.

I would like to see ICOM make a ham version of their F3 VHF and F4 UHF commercial portables. A 128-channel single band or 256 channel dual-band radio would be possible. It should come standard with a rechargeable battery pack of at least 9.6V-1000mah, a BIG speaker, a BIG LCD display, DC input jack with an internal voltage regulator circuit to anable use of auxiliary powder sources from 6-24V. It should also come with a AA battery case be pre-loaded with all of the standard repeater pairs and simplex freqs in the ARRL band plan. You could tag any of these to assign individual channels to a specific memory bank, select band or programmed scan, tag or skip options, CW-ID, cross-band rpt, and PL encode and/or decode.

You would also be able to manually program and assign non-standard simplex freqs or odd splits into unused memory channels either manually or with a simple PC interface. The radio should be frequency agile within the ham bands on the unused memory channels, but have the standard ARRL band plan burned in. It would be nice if you could PC program using non-proprietary software, such as a simple import off an .xls spreadsheet.

I would envision a very sturdy radio with full keypad, much like the Motorola XTS3000 I carry on the job. You could also use it as a wheel chock for your truck or as a hammer to pound tent stakes. It would probbably cost $1000. I paid $600 for my Standard C558A with 200-channel expanded memory back in 1994 when it was the best new thing available. I still have it in my go kit. The original NiCd packs died long ago, but it runs just fine from the 8AA packs once made for the Cherokee 27 CB portables!

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W6TH on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

.

After reading all comments, I think I will just call 911.
.:

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K7PEH on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I have owned two HTs and I got rid of the first one because it did not have as many features as the second one. My second HT is a Yaesu VX6R. Programming this thing is easy when I have the manual sitting in front of me.

However, I have owned about 4 or 5 different cell phones over the years and I have never ever opened up the manuals to learn how to program phone calling lists. I just started pushing the menu buttons and looking at the little icons on the screen and doing the logical thing.

I am not special, I think most people figure out how to program their cell phones without studying the manual and certainly without having the manual in front of them every time they do it.

Therefore, I think that if cell phones which are getting pretty complicated themselves can be so easily programmed then an HT should be too.

So, there is a lot of room for improvement and simplification is always better. It may be that the problem rests with the manufacturers like Icom or Yaesu or Kenwood or whomever in that they think that ham radio operators are smarter than the average cell phone user. I wonder if that is true.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

What I especially like a about the Motorola Systems Saber radio is that it can operate with a "covertacom." I have two covertacoms which means I have one in my car and the second convertacom can be setup to operate as a fixed station scenerio. Very portable and easy to use.

This handheld radio instantly becomes a high powered 50 watt mobile after sliding it into my Jeep's converta com.

When you slide the Motorola Systems Saber radio out of the covertacom located in the vehicle, it becomes a "fully charged" and powerful 6 watt handheld tranciever. (The convertacom is also a field charger for the battery!)

Also when the handheld operates from the convertacom in the vehicle, it powers a 10 watt amplified speaker on the floor of the vehicle. Basically, the radio can be left turned on inside the vehicle with the window rolled down to monitor communications. You can easily hear the radio speaker blaring a 100 ft. away.

The 256 ch. Systems Saber and Convertacom combination when pre programmed with all any any possible repeater pair combination and simplex frequencies in a universal manner, makes this setup a very easy and versatile radio communication device capable of enduring extended use in the field for any sort of short range or even long distance VHF communication.

One radio that literally does it all.

73

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

by W6TH:

After reading all comments, I think I will just call 911.

-----------

You will have to access menu # 27 and submenu # B on your telephone in order for that function to work. :)

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8QV on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

K7PEH said: So, there is a lot of room for improvement and simplification is always better. It may be that the problem rests with the manufacturers like Icom or Yaesu or Kenwood or whomever in that they think that ham radio operators are smarter than the average cell phone user. I wonder if that is true.

Interesting observation. Of course, cell phones are one channel with no tones or splits to program, but some models have features like cameras and internet access. People who have no interest in the technology and just want to pick up the phone and talk may do so. They're not any dumber than the average ham but are simply not interested enough in the technology or its benefits to pursue it. Those interested in cell phone technology will learn all the features because they have an interest, much like a hobby. Don't you think hams should have interest enough in radio technology to learn how to use their own radio? Are hams smarter than mere cell phone users? No, we're all just people, but people with a professed interest in any specialized facet of life, whether radio, photography, horse breeding or stamp collecting should become knowledgeable about their subject. If one is unable/unwilling to expend the effort to understand his hobby/vocation/interest then he should try something else that generates enough interest for him to try to excel at it. Otherwise, why bother? If a firefighter just can't get the hang of operating all those complicated valves and hoses on his truck, should he maybe try another line of work? Why would he even want to be a fireman? I guess because it sounds cool and he gets to wear the nifty uniform.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AA4PB on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Saber radio is that it can operate with a "covertacom."
---------------------------------------
That's a convertacom.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

The spelling police?
...Am I under arrest officer?

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AB9LZ on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

W5ESE

"Some rigs on the market today only transmit limited
power when used with the dry cell battery pack."

Uhh maybe 'cause the internal resistance of the dry cells limits thier ability to supply the current neded? I think thats a limitation of the batteries and the space needed to house enough of them to drive the radio....it's not worth the size tradoff, nor is it worth dumbing down a radio's functionality to make a few wackers happy.

What you really need is a radio like the VX170 that can withstand the rigours of greasy fried chicken fingers and beer breath.

73 m.

A Radio for ARES

by W3WN on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Well, all the rhetoric has been refreshing.

But I think lost in all the rhetoric is the fact that many (not all) of the HT's on the market today are needlessly complicated.

I had to borrow an HT a few weeks back to use at a special event. The person I borrowed it from asked what frequencies we needed and uploaded them to the HT because, he said, trying to program it from the (tiny) keypad got very complicated.

I'm not advocating a return to an IC-2AT, but surely we can do better than this!

How many memories and special functions do we really need?

A Radio for ARES

by VE6SDW on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

In the Edmonton ARES, That I am a part of.
We try to keep things simple to start with.
We have a list of 15 VHF Freq's that we use,
now we normaly only use one or two of them,
but we all have our radios pre-programed for 15
channels. Most are Duplex but some are Simplex.

That way if you need to use some one elses radio the
channels are all the same. We have a card with the
Channels and their settings attacheted to the radio's
so you know the freq. and Channel number.

This works for us.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AE6RF on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"I suspect that competent emergency communicators want radios that are capable of every mode they know about.

Most hams that I have any respect for, are able to learn just about anything they need to know pretty quickly. I think the cure for overly complicated radios has less to do with the hardware and more to do with our culture of ignorance.
"

Funny, telling that to one of the professional emergency communicators...

The local sheriff or fire department personnel will probably demonstrate the "multi mode" operation of their HTs by "going upside your head" with it.

hi hi hi...

Professionals don't want to "play with their radios," they just want commo that works.

Donald

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AC7DX on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

WB7RSG? way to go Greg, nothing like a self-centered AH.
Ashamed I live in the same state.

A Radio for ARES

by WA3KYY on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

While I can understand the want for a simpler EMCOMM radio I just do not see it happening. The reason is simple, economics. There just is not a large enough market for any of the major manufacturers to market a simpler EMCOMM radio. Unless there is market demand, there will be no supply. How many of you would buy an additional or replacement, simpler to use HT for EMCOMM or other use?

As long as we are in the case where each operator brings their own radio, we are going to have to deal with this situation when a new operator joins ARES or RACES. One of the firsts tasks of a new operator would be to program in all the frequencies in use by the group they have joined. Others already members of the local group who own the same radio can provice assistance.

Now if your group keeps a supply of radios at the EOC to issue to the operators as they arrive, then you have other options. One is to go to commercial radios and program them for your local needs. The other is to get amateur radios and also program them to your needs then lock the radios so they cannot be accidentally reprogrammed. Most modern HTs can be so programmed and locked. Operation of these preprogrammed radios is then about as simple as it gets.

One final comment about simpler radios; be careful what you wish for. You may find that your simpler radio is too simple and suddenly cannot adapt or lacks a rare function that has suddenly become necessary for continued operations.

73,
Mike WA3KYY

RE: A Radio for ARES

by WA6MHZ on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

YES, the Icom IC-2AT is the ideal radio for ARES!
NO Digital LCD displays with funny icons
NO Function keys
NO menus to navigate
NO LCDs to crack and make the radio unusable
NO tiny SMAs to break off antennas on
Just ONE PTT switch
Instant knowledge of what frequency you are on
PL settable with a dipswitch, thats the hardest part.
Batteries changable in an instant, rugged, not fragile.
Nothing confusing whatsover!
Having just gotten a Vertex VX-170, it is far better than the VX7R which is impossible to figure out without the manual, but not MUCH better!
Bring back the IC-2AT!!

A Radio for ARES

by VA7CPC on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"Marine band" VHF hand-helds are pretty simple to operate --

set the channel (dedicated knob or buttons),
set the squelch (dedicated knob),
set the volume (dedicated knob), and
"push to talk".

They're designed for people -- boaters -- who _don't care_ about radios, and need to communicate. They're universally used on the water, and very effective.

It sounds like, if you added "repeater offset" to those functions, you'd have your "ARES radio".

All that's missing is the market . . . <g>

Charles

RE: A Radio for ARES

by WI7B on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Amateur radios operators must know how to operate their own stations. That's part of our training, our licencing, and that's the law.

KE4SKY said:

"...The radios were cloned up with the same "personality" and settings, with both amateur and in one case where authorized, a very few local governmment frequencies in them. Each memory bank was set up with the repeater frequencies for District, and the repeaters in each bank had plain language alpha numeric tags to identify them. The simplex channels were all programmed in one bank, the radios were also enabled with digital page and selective calling...."

KE4SKY's practical experience is not a call for simpler radios, but rather an advanced radio technology requiring expert use by amateurs; well in keeping with the basis for our existence.

Isn't part of our foundation as a unique licenced radio service based on improving the recognition and enhancing the value of the amateur service with respect to providing emergency communications?

Like a continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art, I think that having state-of-the-art communications gear, not "simpler" rigs, is an encouragement to the amateur service to provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art. It can help expand of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.

Sound familiar?

73,

---* Ken

RE: A Radio for ARES

by WA6MHZ on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

YES, the Icom IC-2AT is the ideal radio for ARES!
NO Digital LCD displays with funny icons
NO Function keys
NO menus to navigate
NO LCDs to crack and make the radio unusable
NO tiny SMAs to break off antennas on
Just ONE PTT switch
Instant knowledge of what frequency you are on
PL settable with a dipswitch, thats the hardest part.
Batteries changable in an instant, rugged, not fragile.
Nothing confusing whatsover!
Having just gotten a Vertex VX-170, it is far better than the VX7R which is impossible to figure out without the manual, but not MUCH better!
Bring back the IC-2AT!!

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W9RPE on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Hmm...wondering if commercial radios similar to the Icom F21, Motorola P1225, etc. are legal for ARES. I use one to access the 440 machines in my area. Relatively inexpensive. Programs with software. All you do is turn it on and select the channel. Nothin BUT the on/off and channel select knobs. Mucho easy-o.

Maybe not type accepted, but in an actual emergency situation would it matter???

RE

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K5LXP on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Even if you found the holy grail of the perfect handheld, it's only a matter of time it's obsoleted/superceded. Operating a 'mixed fleet' of equipment, especially user provided, as volunteers, is going to be reality. No matter what though, there's no one size fits all. As soon as you establish a rule or standard, there will exceptions. The common denominator is operator. You have to put the onus on them to be competent enough to operate their own gear. If it's too difficult, or takes too much effort to achieve this modicum of competency, then the suitability of that individual in EMCOMM is in question. If you're too stupid to work your own rig, you're probably too stupid to be an effective communicator. I understand that's a rather broad generalization, but to me it summarizes the character of the individual. A person that has the discipline and commitment to train themselves in this very basic skill is going to have that same discipline to follow through on their other tasks. I would have to wonder about deploying an individual that finds it difficult to operate their equipment. It would probably be better to focus on the end, rather than the means, of why we are here and what service we can provide (which itself is rapidly diminishing, but that's another subject).

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I wouldn't say they are too stupid but rather it is because many radio's have different ways to program them. For example, you are handed a radio you never used before, that isn't your own radio from home.

Then you might not understand the functions of that particular model radio without first having to refer to a user manual or reference guide of sorts.

This can also be said for programming another person's TV remote control, using someone else's cell phone, or even driving some else's car for that matter.

Basically if you are not familiarized in advance of the equipment handed to you from the Emcomm trailer, then that doesn't equate to mean a person is stupid about using all ham radio equipment per se.

73

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8MHZ on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

It is legal to use commercial radios on ham bands, just not the other way around.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W6TH on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

By KC8VWM

You will have to access menu # 27 and submenu # B on your telephone in order for that function to work. :)
------------------------------------------------------

Holy macaroni, it worked..
.:

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W5TD on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Icom 2AT

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

No W5TD..., I don't think W6TH's cordless phone was an Icom 2AT.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K5MAR on September 29, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

N9ESH wrote: "How arrogantly repugnant can one person get? This was a thread about the use of simple radios, not a “lets bash HF and CW ops”. Glad I got out of ARES a long time ago and left it to the CBers & GMRSers."

Funny, I didn't see you complaining about the arrogant bashing of the current Tech licensees by the HF and CW crowd earlier in the thread. Apparently you guys can dish it out, but you can't take it.

I'm glad you got out of ARES a long time ago also. The current Tech licensees don't pretend to be experts who bash others for not being intimately familiar with every sub-menu on their HT. They follow directions and do as they are told.

Mark - K5MAR

A Radio for ARES

by KE4ZHN on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I agree with you Alan W4LGH. If someone is too lazy or simple minded to RTFM and know how to operate their own HT, ARES is in serious trouble. I can understand why you left.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by N9IJ on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

We had this once but evolved. Those of us that go back a bit remember crystal controlled rigs. What an idea! 'Course we did have to know what frequency was in which channel so even these may be a stretch for some, I guess.

No matter the simplicity, or complexity, of any radio someone will have to initially set it up and hope those who shouldn't, don't play with the thing when they get it in their hands.

There are several simple radios on the market now. We don't need more PnP radios we need more thinkers at the controls.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W1XZ on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

For the second time I scanned every reply in this thread and the only person making comments about license class were: K5MAR who said "I keep 4 HTX-202 HTs for handing out to those HF-only snobs that suddenly discover they can't use their fancy HF rigs and bugs to communicate with the local command post or a shelter. I can reprogram them for these VHF-challenged operators in just a few minutes if need be, and it's difficult for them to screw up the settings. The Tech operators I have are the technically-superior ones who can get the computers and other advanced systems up and running, leaving me free to hold the hands of the Extra-heavy operators I've assigned to roadblock or mobile canteen duties."
and me who said "Without being classist about my thoughts on encomm I can say that the legnth of a callsign has very little to do with ability. There are techs and extras who memorized the answers to the test and have no clue..."
Please direct me to the tech bashing.

A Radio for ARES

by NN4RH on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I have a whole drawer full of "simple" radios. They're called "GMRS/FRS" and "CB".

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NN4RH on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Presumably people who participate in ARES or other groups that, and who take the responsibility seriously, have participated in various excercises or training or public service vents or have otherwise already have figured out how to use their radios.

So I assume that the need for "simple radios" is particular to those hams who just show up at a site cold.

How about a simple test. If someone you don't know shows up with shiny new HTs hanging on their belts, just ask them to program in a repeater pair. If they can't do it right the first time and in 1 minute or less, send them to unload supplies or help out in the food tent or someplace else where they can't do any serious damage.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KG4RUL on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"How about a simple test. If someone you don't know shows up with shiny new HTs hanging on their belts, just ask them to program in a repeater pair. If they can't do it right the first time and in 1 minute or less, send them to unload supplies or help out in the food tent or someplace else where they can't do any serious damage."

Well, I am an Assistant EC and Information Officer and, I can't program a repeater pair in a VX-5R without the instruction booklet. I guess I should send myself home?

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8MHZ on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I know my FT 50 inside and out but I still think it is way to complex. Needlessly so.

To set the squelch:

1) Press the F button. Not easy in the dark as the keys are not lit.

2) Press the 0/SQL button. Same issue as above.

3) Rotate the main knob to the correct squelch setting.

4) Press the SQL button to make the setting final.

-- OR -- For setting in the dark --

1) Press and hold the main knob until the menu is displayed.

2) Rotate the main knob until you see SQL in the display. There are 32 features in the menu. SQL is 01, but the menu won't always be on 01. It will be on the last feature you looked at.

3) Once you are in SQL, momentarily press the main know again to see the setting.

4) Rotate the main knob to get the desired setting.

5) Press and hold the main knob until the frequency is displayed again.

All this to set the freaking squelch????

To make things even more fun, if you press the buttons in a sequence the radio does not like, it will lock up like a Windows machine and you will have to turn the radio off and back on again to get it to work.

When I said I wanted a tough radio I meant rugged, not hard to use.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NN4RH on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

>> Well, I am an Assistant EC and Information Officer and, I can't program a repeater pair in a VX-5R without the instruction booklet. I guess I should send myself home? <<

You seriously don't know how to program a repeater into your own radio?

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NN4RH on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I mean, this is utterly amazing to me. I would have thought that it was common sense that learning how to use one's own radios should be somewhere at the top of the list for anyone expecting to contribute usefully in a communications role during a communications emergency.

Hope you can get by on your own turf by preprogramming things in ahead of time and hoping that nothing changes. What about if you're on the road, traveling, somewhere other than home and a communications emergency occurs. You going to show up at someone else's command center all proud to volunteer and waving credentials around, and then when the EC says "Great, glad to have you aboard. Our repeater frequency and PL is blah blah blah" you're going to have to say "Uhh , sorry, I don't know how to program my radio - can you do it for me?".

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W4LGH on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Well...this will be my last post here about this subject. This about sums up why I resigned as the ARES EC for my county. Between all the politics, the bitching when we didn't have something to do, and the bitching when I assigned someone something to do, going around behind your back...what can I say a GREAT organization huh? The more and more ARES ties itself in the Fed. Govt. the worse it will become. Now I learn after being involved in it for 4 long years, that members didn't know how to operate their own equipment. Geez..I always thought they asked me to do it for them just to be 100% sure.

Maybe its time to start a NEW Emergency service, one NOT affiliated with anyone, group or govt service. We could call it "CARES" catchy name for...
"Certified Amateur Radio Emergency Services" All members would be required to re-program their radio after a complete CPU reset, and make contact with a net control operator with in a given amount of time.
Tested on ITU phonetics, and last but NOT least, be able to TYPE... not CW but TYPE on a keyboard at least 5 words per minute!(I learned this after everyone said we needed to setup a packet station between the hospital/EOC and the special needs shelter. Then found no one could type out a msg!)

Yes sir with just those few Certifications, I bet we could make "CARES" the BEST Emergency Communicator Service out there!

Again, best of LUCK to ARES, I certainly do NOT wish any of you harm, but you really better wake up and take a good look at the directions you're heading in.

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AB2MH on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I do not want this radio. In a nutshell, I really don't like the idea of ham radio being dumbed down to just emergency communications.

A Radio for ARES

by N0IU on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

One of the things that seems to keep coming up is how our gear is so much more complicated than the radios used by law enforcement, fire departments, paramedics and other first responders. These people buy communications systems based on functionality, not market driven forces like amateur radio. If it doesn’t help them do their job better or more efficiently, then they don’t need it. All the fluff and gingerbread and bells and whistles on our radios are just useless junk to them and would just get in the way. This need to emulate these first responders sounds like it’s coming from the same people who want to wear orange vests with badges and have light bars on their cars.

Law enforcement officers are sometimes required to use their radios when they are on pursuit of perpetrators while being fired upon or firing back at them. Firefighters use their radios while decked out in full turnout gear with an oxygen tank on their back while carrying extraction tools or hundreds of feet of hose. Paramedics are focused on saving the lives of victims or pulling them out of peril. NONE of these things are in our job description. Our needs are very much different from those first responders. We are there to supplement existing communications systems or in very rare cases, replace them on a temporary basis. We are generally not called upon to provide communications under such duress.

One of the other things that bothers me is the statement about programming in non-standard repeater offsets. In all my years as an amateur radio operator, I have NEVER had to program a non-standard offset into a radio – EVER! If you are an EC Coordinator or whatever the position is called in your jurisdiction, why on earth would you be using a repeater with a non-standard offset? Seriously, what is the purpose of doing that?

As I said earlier, if you cannot perform the most basic functions required to use your radio, you made a bad choice. I don’t want to start this whole hobby vs. service argument again, but the bottom line is that we are hobbyists who are called upon in times of need to use our skills and equipment in times of need. You should buy gear that will be useful to you most of the time. Buy the stuff that has features you like that you can afford and learn to use it.

Scott N0IU

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8MHZ on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"I have NEVER had to program a non-standard offset into a radio – EVER! If you are an EC Coordinator or whatever the position is called in your jurisdiction, why on earth would you be using a repeater with a non-standard offset? Seriously, what is the purpose of doing that?"

One reason is for the use of SNAP portable repeaters. Some have a 1 meg offset. ALL are on shared non-coordinted pairs. Some have offsets just the reverse of coordinated pairs.

CA has had most of their coordinated pairs used up and must resort to un-shared non-coordinated pairs, many of which have a 1 meg or reverse offset.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K8MHZ on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

My biggest gripe about ARES is the NIMS being forced down our throats when we have operators *for whatever reason* can't program their own radios. We have flaws in our emergency repeaters and our Red Cross chapters can't communicate with each other....and so on.

The span of control restrictions for NIMS make it almost unusable in a high density situation and I have seen it abandoned in actual use for that very reason.

We need to focus on our ability to move information from one place to another via radio waves. If we can't do that, all other training is useless. Let the paid personnel wrestle with the NIMS bear.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KG4RUL on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

>> >> Well, I am an Assistant EC and Information Officer and, I can't program a repeater pair in a VX-5R without the instruction booklet. I guess I should send myself home? <<

You seriously don't know how to program a repeater into your own radio? <<

Yep, the sequence to do all the steps to program a frequency, shift and tone into that radio is most definitely non-intuitive. If you don't have a need to do this on a regular basis, it is very easy to forget the nuances.

Dennis KG4RUL

A Radio for ARES

by KD5RGJ on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

In a real emergency, there will be no electricity to operate the repeater. The 5 watt HT isn't going very far on simplex so use base/mobile unit on emergency battery backup power. And don't forget about HF either.
Keep an emergency set up for that also.I keep a ts 130 for HF emergencies. All knobs and switches...no buttons to punch for menus, hidden menus, etch. Set the knobs to 12 o'clock and start transmitting.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NN4RH on September 30, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Well, I have a VX5R.It's quite simple to program. All you have to remember is how to get into the menu system and how to save the settings. Everything in between is multiple-choice. There's no nuances and you don't even have to memorize anything else or look anything up once you 'get it'. I am not sure I even know where my manual is. I haven't needed it in a long time.

Same thing with my VX-2R, VX-170, FT-2800M and FT-7800. Once you've learned one Yaesu, you can easily figure out how to program any of them without a manual.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K1DA on October 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

My mint condition IC2AT which is 20 odd years old has NO pl tone generator. Most of us added one from comspec but the case has to be opened to change it

A Radio for ARES

by KF6ZYT on October 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Matt has made an excellent point, which many in their zeal to castigate him or stroke their own egos by demeaning, overlooked...

To you who are self aggrandizing your intelligence because of the ability to program your own radio- trade HTs with someone, now how rapidly are you going to be of any use in a frenzied emergency?

Stuff happens, radios fail, conditions change. In an emergency, where time is of the essence simpler is better and just may save a life!

A Radio for ARES

by KC0VMP on October 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

For the record I am not stupid, in fact I can program my Yeasu VX-7R without the manual.

I wrote this artical becouse sometimes my complicated radio locks up on me. Not a good feature for an emergency radio. If my radio ever failed and someone handed me their Icom or Alinco I would probably be in trouble. Additionally someday I will be old. I may have poor eyesight, shaky fingers and a poor memory. As the ham demographic continues to age there will be more and more of a market for a simple radio.

Several people have suggested using a pre-programmed commercial radio. I can only hope you have a contingency plan if you are called to assist outside of your home district. I like the idea though, way to think out of the box!

It is amazing to me how many people in this thread are ready to kick people out of ham radio just because they have a different opinion, personality or reason for being involved. Not every ARES member is there because they like pushing buttons.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NN4RH on October 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

>> I wrote this artical becouse sometimes my complicated radio locks up on me. Not a good feature for an emergency radio.

Then either you have a defective unit, or you really do not know as much as you think you do about how to use it properly.

>> If my radio ever failed and someone handed me their Icom or Alinco I would probably be in trouble.

Maybe someone serious about being a trained communicator with emergency communications skills, could/should invest some time learning other equipment in addition to their own. Then they'd be more of an asset rather than a liability.

>> Additionally someday I will be old. I may have poor eyesight, shaky fingers and a poor memory.

Just what's needed at a disaster site. So you can either swallow your pride for the good of the public service and just get out of the way and let the young pups who can think and see straight and can program their own radios run things, or you can be an old-fart getting in everyone's way.

Simpler radio means less functionality. What features of your VX-7R are you willing to give up?

A Radio for ARES

by N0IU on October 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

KF6ZYT wrote, "To you who are self aggrandizing your intelligence because of the ability to program your own radio- trade HTs with someone, now how rapidly are you going to be of any use in a frenzied emergency?

Stuff happens, radios fail, conditions change. In an emergency, where time is of the essence simpler is better and just may save a life!"

Remember, we are not there to replace law enforcement, fire, rescue or paramedic personnel. We are there to supplement or augment communications between these agencies if their communication systems have failed or are compromised. We are there to provide communications assitance to relief agencies such as the Red Cross or Salvation Army.

How often do frenzied emergencies actually happen? As others have said, if your radio is not reliable or 'locks up' for no apparent reason, then your radio needs to be fixed or thrown away. If it won't work as a hobby radio, it certainly won't work in a 'frenzied emergency'.

Scott N0IU

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K5VY on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I own and use the Yaesu FT-60R handheld. There are two of them in my ARES "kit". As you have suggested, I've made up "Cheat Sheets" laminated in Clear plastic about 3x5" in size and fit easily in the kit box. Extra antennas and spare batteries are also included. Facility for battery charging is needed, and the cig lighter adapter works just fine. My name and callsign are engraved on both HT and batteries. Works for me.

A Radio for ARES

by K2LCK on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I agree, I went to service the NYC Marathon and needed help with my ICW-32. Seems using it once a year isn't enuff for a simple mind... That having been said, some of the older radios, like the IC 2 can be understood by us older folks. Ed K2LCK

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Hope you can get by on your own turf by preprogramming things in ahead of time and hoping that nothing changes. What about if you're on the road, traveling, somewhere other than home and a communications emergency occurs.

--------------------

I suppose if you have a commercial radio like I do which is pre programmed with every possible frequency repeater combintation in existance, then travelling to a different district is not a problem.

There's something like 72 repeater combinations and 25 simplex frequencies that are pretty much considered as the "norm" anywhere you travel across the country.

Use this guide below and take the more universal approach in programing your radio for all possible coordinated frequency pairs. Throw in about 10 or so various simplex frequencies and your good to go.

VHF

http://www.sera.org/2.html

UHF

http://www.sera.org/440.html

73

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W1XZ on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

With 37 standard CTCSS tone used and 72 standard repeater pairs used in amateur radio there are 2,664 possible combinations to program into your commercial radio to be "simple". Wouldn't it be easier to have competent operators who can run their own radios. Instead of packing jump kits with road flares, water, and day-glo vests take some time to learn how to use your radio. After all it is emergency COMMUNICATIONS that is our charge, and participatants should be able to do just that. How more simple can it be?

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Wouldn't it be easier to have competent operators who can run their own radios.

--------------

It's not the ham operators lack of knowledge or skill that's the problem.

It's the many different combinations of radio's sold on the market combined with the many different ways each one are programmed.

Some radio's simply involve the idea of requiring a learning curve when using them.

For example, without ever using one before, or referring to any user manual, do you know how to program a Yaesu FT 847 to operate in satellite communication mode?

What sequence of buttons do you press for this function to operate exactly? What specific menu item number changes the 6 meter RF output connector to the HF output RF connector on the back of the radio? Do you even know this radio can do that? What is the "QMB" button on the radio for? What is the "MCK/W" button for exactly?

Should hams specifically know exactly what features and capabilities each individual radio is supposed to have or not have and have?

Does not knowing how to operate and program each make and model of radio on the market by sheer memory equate to mean hams are incompetent?

73

A Radio for ARES

by KF4PEP on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

These radios already exist, and I can see a valid use.

As for them existing, take a look around on Ebay at the used Motorola P-100, GP-350, HT600, Saber etc. Simple, easy to use, foolproof, and under $100. The Kenwood TK230/330 series fits the bill also.

These rigs are far, far more durable than most ham rigs.

As for need? Each person involved in Encomm should have a "full featured' radio and know how to use it, but these are valuable for situations where the organization will have a need to hand out simple radios if those radios fail, there are not enough, or they are great for times when the user may be spending extended time periods out in rain.... most ham rigs will not come close to suriving what the commercial rigs will. My GP-350 survived a flood where my home was filled with 5 feet of water. I pulled off the abttery, dried it out, and was on the air.

Imagine if one of your volunteers walks in but his gear has been lost/destroyed/stolen in whatever event has occured. Hand him one and he is ready to roll in 30 seconds.

Radios are tools, and each fills its own niche. A gang charger with 6 simple preprogrammed commercial HT's should be on any ARES/RACES stations table. I put togteher a set of 6 Kenwood TK-230's, a gang rapid (1 hour)charger, 6 spare batteries, speaker mics, programming cable, and even two convertacoms to allow them to be used as mobile/base units with external antennas.... total cost just under $300.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W1XZ on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I would assume that any amateur responding to an emergency would be trained and have their own radio. If not the programming should be part of the training. Amateurs should be intelegent, resourceful, and able to use state of the art equipment. An emergency group with a drawer full of radios and no idea how to use them??? When someone shows up do you just throw a radio at them and say go get 'em? With all the meetings and training and protocol not being able to use an HT is beyond my comprehension.

A Radio for ARES

by K0RGR on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

We just had a big disaster drill, and we had very few radio problems.

I was one of the primary Net Control operators. We were provided with two Kenwood TM-V7A rigs, that were programmed with all of the frequencies to be used in the drill. Of course, I'd never seen a TM-V7A, and quickly discovered that basic operations were not at all 'intuitive'. Once someone showed me the way to switch channels, etc., I found the rig easy to use, but without the quick instructions, FER GET IT! I don't have time to read your manual in a disaster.
If I can't quickly figure it our on my own, there needs to be somebody there to give me a quick lesson in basic functions.

We did have some problems with HT's. A couple ops had nice fancy units with VOX capability, and they couldn't seem to figure out how to turn the VOX off.
Another MUST we identified is the need for earphones for everybody - in the scenario we were practicing, we were exchanging messages that we did not want everybody to hear. I had a pair of headphones which were an absolute necessity in the extremely noisy environment of the command center. Finally, even some users with speaker mikes had problems with wind noise outside.

I own many 2 meter rigs, and none of the portables are at all intuitive to program. I do carry the manuals for my HTs - most of them can be downloaded off the Internet if you can't find the original. But again, you need to program your rigs for simple operation - put in the required channels and lock the keypads, so you can easily show someone else how to use the rig if needed.

For HF, I would like to see people focus on using channelized ops on 60 meters with NVIS techniques.

A Radio for ARES

by WA3KYY on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Several respondents have mentioned the scenario of handing an unfamiliar radio to an operator and expressing concern that they would not know how to "program" the radio. Why the heck are they being asked to program that radio in the first place? If that radio is part of an ARES/RACES team's equipment, shouldn't it be set up ready to operate? All the operator really needs to know is where the on/off switch is, the volume control, the channel selector and the PTT button. With a sheet listing the various channels one can expect to use during the emergency, they have all they need to OPERATE that radio.

How often during any ARES/RACES drill, public service event, or actual emegency response do any of the radios need to be programmed? About the only time I can think of is if your group is moving out of your area to assist in another location and will be using that group's frequencies. If you are leaving your own area to assist, then the manual or other information needed to program your radio had darn well better be in your supplies that you bring with you. Otherwise, stay home, you are not adequately prepared to assist.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KF4PEP on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

One scenario that would require on the fly programming: All your repeaters are down, yet one is needed. A couple HT's or mobiles are quickly wired with a homebrew interface to make one.... but it is using a wide split (2mhz or so) in order to allow the unit to function with two antennas, no duplexer and lessen desense as muchg as possible.

In that scenario bet I could bring up the programming software, reprogram 6 identical commercial units, and be done before 6 different hams figured out how to get a non-standrd split into 6 different model radios. Should it be that way? No, but it is.......

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KE4SKY on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

A scenario requiring field reprogramming occurred at the Pentagon afer the 9/11/01 attack. A portable repeater HRO brought in, using the Shared Non-protected Pair with a CTCSS decided only the day before.

Based on QRM I've heard at various times, there is much to recommend better OPSEC. If you don't issue thoser working the incident government radios, program your portable amateur repeater with a unique digital squelch. I'd change it with each operational period, providing the needed access code to assigned operators during their incident briefing at each shift change. This works is VERY effective in excluding the curious and malicious lids, wannabes and Bozos.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

In that scenario bet I could bring up the programming software, reprogram 6 identical commercial units, and be done before 6 different hams figured out how to get a non-stand rd split into 6 different model radios.

--------------------

Why couldn't the idea of "universal" programming work?
I think advanced preparation is your best bet.

All radio's should be preprogrammed taking into account various scenarios that may or may not occur in the real communication world.

Training people on the use of the supplied equipment should take place before the event, not during the event.

Similarly, radio's should be pre programmed in advance for all possible operating scenarios including the idea of simplex backup frequencies, talkaround on repeater output frequencies, etc.etc..

What we don't want happening is the idea that we cannot communicate with one another because of radio equipment / human interface issues and universal preprogramming will lessen this to a significant extent.

That's why I feel it's necessary to "standardize" the way a radio is preprogrammed in advance. Not much left to program into a radio when all 72 repeater pairs and 25 simplex frequencies are already in there.

That basically just leaves the operator to know and understand how to use the more basic functions in the field such as changing "channels" etc.

73

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KB2FCV on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

A Ham should know how to use his radio, however, I do agree with the notion that in emergency communications, simple and effective communications is better. Sure, you may know your radio inside and out.. but if your battery dies and someone hands you a loaner.. are you going to know how to operate that radio?

I have a Motorola HT1000. Since our frequencies are long since predetermined, I have them programmed in the radio. All I have to remember what channel is what. I simply rotate the knob and talk where I need to talk. The nice thing is, I can hand this radio to someone else and say XYZ repeater is on channel 4 and they're good to go. Not to mention, the Motorola stuff is more or less bulletproof. I do have some Yaesu and Icom gear that I keep for when I travel around and want to use machines in other areas.. but they are mostly used on the local repeaters or simplex.

In addition, My Motorola stays with me most of the time as I am a Volunteer Firefighter. I'd rather trust my life with that than any Ham Gear anyday.

A Radio for ARES

by KC2MMI on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Matt, file that under Faery Tales. Sadly.

The sad truth is that each piece of hardware (knob, switch) is going to add about five dollars to the final selling price of the radio. So, if you want four knobs and four switches instead of the two or three they try to use now...you're going to add at least #5 to the street selling price of the radio, and that's going to impact sales so badly that it just won't be economically feasible in the consumer market.

In the market of business/public service radios, where a "simple" HT can be a $2000 radio, it might be possible. But as we all know, hams don't buy radios of that quality and price in the first place--because they cost too much.

It's the same reason that VCRs no longer have lots of buttons and switches on them, and TV's often must be controlled by the remote alone. The consumer market simply won't pay the extra price.

A Radio for ARES

by NJ6F on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Greetings!

Use only radios that have computer control.

Simply put the frequencies onto your VX7 commander software and have the files available for local area distribution. Put in channel numbers versus the repeater name.

Set the display for LARGE Text!

The biggest problem is most ARES guys are 50 or older and too forgetful to remember to use your glasses.

The other problem is most older hams are so used to having knobs for everything versus menu's. A new technique that makes sense just screws them up...not able to change old ways...

If you don't have a computer or are scared of technology you should not be in the hobby or get some 10 year old kid to do it for you.

Besides on HF 60 meters is channelized already for local and regional interstate communication.

The older hams also have this thing about back up rigs.
But they are all different models which screws them up.
Enough with back up rigs. Get one good / Yaesu HF and VX7 and sell off the rest.

Use PSK31, it is more reliable than some ham mumbling phonetics into a microphone. Some, with regional dialects are so hard to understand someone should make their license keyboard only!

73
Rich

RE: A Radio for ARES

by AE6RO on October 2, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Greetings, fellow earthlings!
In emergencys as in many other things, the KISS principle applies: Keep it simply stupid!
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but excessively complicated radios made lots of trouble and people died in two infamous emergencies: 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina.
The author of this thread is "spot on" with the need for simple radios in emergencys. That's what makes amateur radio necessary in emergencys. Hard enough to keep healthy let alone learn how to use an overly complicated radio in emergency.
73, AE6RO

A Radio for ARES

by DA2KI on October 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Those who advocate the use of simple business band radios pre-programmed with the regional ham repeater frequencies have a valid idea. This type of "plain jane" HT would be a perfect EOC "loaner" for someone who has a ham license but not a personal HT. Often in rural areas the husband & wife both have ham licenses, but share the radio equipment. So you have 2 licensed hams that show up to help out, but only 1 HT between them. Just give one of them the simple business band HT dialed up to the local repeater frequency and send them on to their assigned locations! What a great way to get a new no-code tech involved in helping out with radio communications without having to use an over complicated HT. One of their greatest fears is that they might bump the wrong button on an unfamiliar loaner HT and end up on the wrong frequency. Give them a "plain jane" loaner HT and have them get involved! By the time the disaster/event is over they will have gained valuable training and experience that will motivate them to consider the purchase of their own HT - and possibly even to upgrade if they found their experience to be positive. Hey, we all started out as newbies once upon a time. The key is to be an elmer and mentor to the new hams! Help them build confidence and knowledge. Be nice to that new no-code tech....someday he may grow up to be your club's repeater custodian (at which point you may be having a hard time remembering how to program your radio due to your advancing years and will need a little assistance yourself!)

A Radio for ARES

by DA2KI on October 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

By the way, in the near future the radio market will begin to be flooded with used business band radio equipment that is being replaced due to the FCC narrowband mandate. The Federal government and the military has until 2008 to replace all of it's VHF and UHF radios with new narrow-band compliant equipment. Civilian agencies and private users have until around 2011-2014 to complete the switch to narrowband operation on their assigned frequencies. Hams, who are not affected by this regulation change, will find a bonanza of used Motorola equipment (and other brands) on the surplus market. A quality used Motorola MSF-5000 VHF repeater will suddenly become so affordable that you will wonder why you should spend any more time messing with Micor mobile radios trying to move them down into the 2-meter band so you could convert them to repeater duty. I don't know of any other radio service other than Amateur Radio that will be able to use the older analog/wideband radio equipment. Everyone else must eventually switch over to narrowband operation. (Note: the narrowband mandate is a separate issue from the APCO P25 compliant issue. Everyone involved in business band / public service must convert to narrowband operation. The smart ones will also purchase P25 compliant radio equipment for interoperability, but that is not a government mandate - just common sense.)

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC2MMI on October 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"business band radios pre-programmed with the regional ham repeater frequencies have a valid idea."

Perhaps that would work acceptably in Deutschland, but if you had a US ham license you would be expected to know that a commecially sold business-band radio is not legal for ham operation, regardless of whether it can work as such.

The very limited exception for actual emergency use still doesn't make it a sound idea.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on October 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

if you had a US ham license you would be expected to know that a commecially sold business-band radio is not legal for ham operation,

---------

Huh? ...since when?

US hams can use any sort of transmitter for ham radio use. My handheld could be a mason jar with steak bone buttons on the outside and wiring made from grape vines on the inside and it would still be considered legal for ham radio use.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC2MMI on October 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Since forever. A business-band radio will be type accepted or certified for use in THAT BAND ONLY and the ham bands will be locked out. It is also illegal for the seller/maker to be intentionally marketing and selling it for another service beyond that which it was approved for, don't put that burden on your supplier by buying non-ham radios from them and using them (if you can) as ham radios.

Now, you, as a ham, may MODIFY or BUILD anything to work as a ham radio and you may be very easily able to modify commercial radios to be used as perfectly good ham radios. (Like reprogrammed GE/Ericssons and Motorolas, after you've bought the programming cables and software for them.) But you won't be able to just "buy" a business service radio and use it in the ham bands without doing extra work on it--which in turn defeats the purpose here, of having "simple" radios to use. Buy and modify or build anything you please--but then, you are still liable for testing it and making sure it meets the specs for use in the ham service. Another complication.

Bottom line, you're not going to buy a business-band radio and just use it as a ham radio. If it was that simple and easy, it would also be sold as a ham radio, to hams who might afford it.

Remember, this is not about what five guys sitting around a poker table can do with their soldering guns--but about what can be done "out of the box" to work on a national basis.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC8VWM on October 3, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Now, you, as a ham, may MODIFY or BUILD anything to work as a ham radio and you may be very easily able to modify commercial radios to be used as perfectly good ham radios. (Like reprogrammed GE/Ericssons and Motorolas, after you've bought the programming cables and software for them.)

---------------

Well isn't that what we are talking about here?
I think this is quickly becoming an exercise in semantics.

I don't need to buy any programming cables or software for reprogramming radio equipment.

I can employ the services of a licensed service technician to make the modifications if need be. In fact, it's my understanding that this is in fact the more preferred method because they have the latest equipment for properly calibrating the equipment to function within it's proper parameters and transmitting specifications.

I'm not talking about a government contract with a national radio manufacturer as a supplier of ham radio emcomm equipment here, but perhaps you are?

My apologies if we got off on the wrong, same page of things.

73 KC8VWM

RE: Repairs and programming for GE portables

by KE4SKY on October 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

The General Electric MP-A and MP-D series handhelds are common at hamfests and available fairly inexpensively. There are several articles around the internet by K4MBE on bringing these into the ham bands. I have both VHF and UHF versions. For those needing repairs on these and other GE models, several radio techs who worked on these at GE in Lynchburg, VA are still around. I cost $30 bucks each to reprogram 46-channel radios from my .xls spreadsheet

[mailto:ge4ever@newlondontech.com]
NEW LONDON TECHNOLOGY
23 TURKEY FOOT ROAD
LYNCHBURG, VA 24502

They can also do repairs and have most parts. Shop rate is $52.00 an hour plus return shipping at cost.

A Radio for ARES

by K2LCK on October 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Interesting run of comments.. Some make me glad to have been a ham for 50 years, and others... Anyway, it was the change in FCC bandwidth requirements in the early sixties which made tons of excess commercial gear available for amateur use and was the main reason,argeuably the only reason, for the growth of two meter (first) repeaters. Prior to that, the ONLY two meter repeater was a AFSK repeater in NYC, used fer TTY. (Tuboro?) Of coarse one should know that the amateur license bypasses FCC "type acceptance" requirements for amateur frequencies, although it is expected that the "dumbing down" of requirements for the license (several examples of which I see here) may change that. The answer to being prepared for an emergency is of coarse drilling for one, perhaps if I used my INCw32 between marathons, I would remember how to use it.. Ed K2LCK

A Radio for ARES

by DA2KI on October 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Actually, an American citizen cannot obtain a "DA" call sign prefix from Germany without first having a US Amateur Radio License, military identification card and orders assigning you to a unit garrisoned in Germany. So, yes, I do know what I am talking about. However, my previous comments concerned operations back in the US.

Modern VHF synthesized/programmable Motorola business band radios require no modification to operate on 2-meters. They will accept programing anywhere from 138-174 MHz. Nothing is "locked out". All you need is your Amateur Radio license as your authority to operate such a radio on 2-meters.

As has been said before, there is nothing in the FCC rules that require you to operate type accepted / type certified equipment on the amateur radio band. We are the only radio service that is allowed to build our own radio equipment or modify equipment from other radio services for operation on the ham bands. But this is a one-way street - you cannot legally modify amateur radio equipment to operate outside the ham bands.

I have elmered many new hams that were intimidated by all the bells & whistles on modern 2-meter HT's. Usually the best approach during ARES operations was to just set the HT up, explain the basic operation, and lock the key pad to prevent the wrong button from being pushed. As the new hams gained operating experience they became confident & ready to learn more about the features of the loaner HT. It is somewhat similar to the "training wheels" concept. Get the new hams involved in radio communications as a starting point. Some do not even have any equipment yet of their own. For this purpose, plain jane business band radios pre-programmed and available as loaners from the EOC would be an excellent idea. Sure, a more experienced ham would like a full-featured 2-meter HT. But we are talking about having basic radios available in the event of a local exercise or emergency. Brand new hams, old hams, and spouses often times do not own their own HT. Having plain jane business band radios preprogrammed for the ham bands available as loaners in the EOC ensures that you can use all the sincere & licensed volunteers that show up to assist. I like the idea...

A Radio for ARES

by DA2KI on October 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

And with the FCC mandate to convert to narrowband operations approaching, many ARES groups may be able to obtain used business band HT's as the EOC and other public service agencies upgrade to the new equipment. Ask your county Emergency Manager what plans the county has for their old equipment once they obtain the new narrowband radios. They might be willing to give the old stuff to your ARES group for FREE! If you have a good working relationship with your county DES manager, it would not hurt to ask...

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KC2MMI on October 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Forgetting for a moment about small questions, like what business band radios can be bought, in "known good" reliable condition, from what source, at what price comparable to ham equipment, please do tell me what Motorola business-band equipment can be conveniently bought and then simply "dialed" into the ham bands, without reprogramming or modifications?

If there's something cheaper and simpler than ham gear (which was the point here) that can be bought in business/commercial grade equipment, that's been kept a very good secret.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by DA2KI on October 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

OK, this thread is getting way too ridiculous.

Nowhere did I ever state that Motorola business-band radio equipment could be simply "dialed" into the ham bands. I repeatedly used the words, "pre-programmed" and "will accept programming from 138-174 MHz". This means you use a computer and the Motorola software to PROGRAM in the transmit/receive frequencies, PL tones, etc for each available channel. In the business band radio world, this is what is meant by the phrase "programming".

Business band radio equipment is NOT "operator" or "user" programmable from the front panel, as Amateur Radio equipment is. This is because business band users are licensed by the FCC for specific frequencies. Amateur Radio operators are licensed for various "bands" instead of specific frequencies (Exception: 60-meters). The intent is to do this work in advance, and have the radios on hand in the EOC prior to the next field exercise or emergency. It is all about pre-planning and training.

There have been several previous posts in this thread concerning Motorola equipment suitable for such use. Models mentioned were P-100, GP-300, GP-350, HT-600, HT-1000, and Saber, to mention just a few. Prices mentioned ranged from $100 to $250 or more.

As to where you can purchase used business-band radios in "known good" reliable condition, from what source, at what price comparable to ham equipment...that is something for you to find out. I have no idea what the radio shop business situation is like in New York City. That's like asking me to provide specific sources for cheap but reliable cars in NYC. How would I know? I live thousands of miles away! Ask around of your fellow local hams and find out what they know. Usually the key is finding a Motorola radio shop with one or more hams employed as technicians. Most guys in that situation would be willing to provide a heads-up on some good, used equipment available for re-sale. You can also purchase military surplus Land Mobile Radios (LMR's) through the Defense Reutilization & Marketing Office (DRMO) at US military bases - but you never know how serviceable the equipment will be. Like buying off of e-Bay, it can be a real coin toss. The best approach is to see if you can "screen" the listed auction items at the DRMO yard prior to the on-line auction date. For more information, "google" on "DRMO" or the full name.

Yes, this post started off lamenting the lack of simple & cheap 2-meter amateur radio HT's. Many replied with comments about the long gone Icom 2AT or the currently available Yaesu VX-170 as examples of inexpensive and simple to program 2-meter HT's. The idea was then mentioned of using pre-programmed used business band HT's as another solution - with the added advantage of being far more rugged than many of the amateur radio 2-meter HT's currently sold today. I agreed with that concept and felt it was a valid idea and an option worth looking in to.

I went on to mention the FCC mandate for business band and public service agencies to convert over to narrowband operation and equipment in the coming years. The Federal government and the military are already 3/4 completed with their conversion - and all of their analog/wideband equipment is going to DRMO for disposal at military surplus auctions. Because this requirement affects all of the business band and public service agencies, all of their present analog/wideband equipment is going to start hitting the surplus market in a few years. There is no one left in the business band or public service area that can use this equipment - they all must convert to narrowband. So one of the only places to dump the used wideband equipment will be the amateur radio market. That's where the expected future low prices will start to compete with the commercially produced amateur radio equipment currently available for sale.

And to top it off, if you can get your County Emergency Manager to convince the county to donate their obsolete analog/wideband business band radios to your ARES group, then your cost will be ZERO! After all, who else are they going to sell/give the radios to? No one else can use them - they all have to convert to narrowband equipment! At that point, even if you have to pay the local Motorola shop to "reprogram" the radios with 2-meter frequencies, you will probably still get more bang for the buck than a ham 2-meter HT. We are talking about EOC loaner radios that can absorb some punishment and keep on working! Radios that you would feel comfortable loaning out from the EOC instead of your own personal deluxe 2-meter HT with all the bells & whistles. Sure, an experienced ham would prefer his own deluxe 2-meter HT. But we are talking about an alternative to the basic 2-meter HT currently available from the amateur radio manufacturers. Something simple to issue to new hams, inexperienced hams, or just plain clumsy hams.

I realize you have only had your Technician license for a little over 2-years. But Please, Please, read all of the threads and avoid jumping in to thrash someone on a subject you know nothing about. (not that it ever stopped anyone else from doing the same on this forum. I swear, membership on eham must include a complimentary flame suit.)

There are a lot of us old hams out there that have been involved in the business band / public service / military land mobile radio business for years. This experience helps, especially with ARES operations. Besides, ham radio is only a hobby, and one that is supposed to be fun. I read posts such as this one to get new ideas about ARES operations and equipment. For the most part I come away enlightened...until I get thrashed by someone quoting non-existing FCC regulations concerning the use of surplus business band radios on the ham bands.

Where do you think most of the 2-meter repeaters operated by radio clubs got their start? Thats right - many started out their life as business band radios! Why? Because most radio clubs cannot afford commercial manufactured repeaters built specifically for the Amateur Radio service. That's why the Motorola MICOR business band mobile radio was one of the "standards" for 2-meter repeaters back in the 1980's. Now all of the soon to be surplus VHF synthesized/programmable business band radios will eventually replace the MICOR's. Plus, they don't need the detailed modifications of the VHF High-Band (low split) MICOR's. Just "program" in your repeater frequencies and various operating parameters and you're done "converting" the radio itself to 2-meters! Now you can move on to the repeater specific modifications. No, it isn't as simple as "dialing in" the frequencies - but it is a close second, and the technical specifications are usually far better than those required of Part 97 type certified equipment.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W4LGH on October 5, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I said I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, because it was getting scary to think we had "Emergency Communicators" out there that didn't know how to work their equipment. I mean all you need is a couple of simplex frequencies and a couple of repeater frequencies programmed into your radios and this info should have been included into your emergency disaster plan and every ARES member in your area should have a copy of this plan, and had months to figure out how to program their radio, ask someone for help, and have learned all the basic operations of it. One simple plan developed by your EC, and approved by it members, then you just follow the plan! Its NOT rocket science.
==============
Now...KC2MMI writes..."Forgetting for a moment about small questions, like what business band radios can be bought, in "known good" reliable condition, from what source, at what price comparable to ham equipment, please do tell me what Motorola business-band equipment can be conveniently bought and then simply "dialed" into the ham bands, without reprogramming or modifications?"
==============
Most major brand, Motorola/GE-Ericson/Standard/Johnson/Kenwood/Yaesu/Icom, etc commercial radio equipment made in the past 15 yrs was built programable, with a very WIDE frontend and output circuits. Typically the HI-BAND VHF equipment will work between 137Mhz to 174Mhz and UHF between 440Mhz to 470Mhz without ANY tunning or mods done to it. So all you have to do is get the memories programmed into it, hence, simply dialed in! Again its just that simple!!!

Some people just want to make mountains out of mole hills, and these are the type that need NOT be involved with ANY kind of emergency services period!
The EC's DEC's and SEC's haven't been doing their jobs in weeding out these people, nor supporting anyone will to do so. All they want to see is NUMBERS!
NOt qualified people...

Wake up a smell the coffee guys...There are GOOD ARES people out there, but the ones that should NOT be involved weigh the rest down. Kinda that one bad apple thing...

Good luck to all....
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: A Radio for ARES

by KG4RUL on October 5, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Berkeley County SC ARES has standardized on the following:

http://home.comcast.net/~dzabawa/radiofreqs.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~dzabawa/FT2800QuickRef.pdf

Dennis KG4RUL
Information Officer, Berkeley County SC ARES

A Radio for ARES

by KE7AKS on October 6, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Well My chioce is to use the FT 8800 dual band mobile in my truck, and have a HYPER MEMORY BUTTON set to the frequencies most commonly used for RACES/ARES/ SARS work. I include the COUNTY and LOCAL POLICE and FIRE, FORESTRY SERVICE frequencies for scanning to hear what they say..then a W32A HT can be set to use the FT 8800 as a cross band repeater for the time spent outside the truck.

Not a dedicated radio, but a dedicated hyper memory set. When not used for emergencies, just punch #1 hyper memory button, and I am back to the normal frequencies.

I think it is the BEAT use for the HYPER MEMORY feature of the FT 8800R.

Using the IC W32A HT together with the Mobile seems to work very well.

73's Harv KE7AKS

A Radio for ARES

by WA5WRE on October 7, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

After being in Amateur radio for 54 years, operating tube type equipment, early transistor, and now surface mount technology, I know the perfect radio for the type of Amateur you are talking about, it's called a "CB". Very simple, has On/Off and Volume on one knob, Squelch on another, and a channel selector on another. How simple can you get. If you want simple, this is your radio, if you want to be an Amateur/Technically qualified, then stay in Ham radio.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K2LCK on October 10, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I disagree with the above "CB" referance. It is the "elete" ham attitude , no longer justified, which maintains the gulf between the two services. In order to keep use of our frequencies over the constant demand for them, fueled by campaign contributions,(like BPL) and not having the funds necessary to make our own contributions, we must maintain a large number of licensed hams. All we need is numbers and to turn away by insult the possible hams that CB provides is extremely shortsighted.. Ed

RE: A Radio for ARES

by NI0C on October 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"All we need is numbers"

So, quantity is more important to you than quality? That's usually a bad argument.

Maybe you wouldn't care if the ham bands started sounding like CB, but most active hams would.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K2LCK on October 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

OK, be a snob.. I am a snob also, but I would rather not be a snob with frequencies to use, than a snob without frequencies. I have a knob on my radio, if the conversation sounds like 11 meters. I turn the knob.... Numbers are everything, they keep the felons in washington from selling out frequencies ..

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K2LCK on October 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

OK, be a snob.. I am a snob also, but I would rather not be a snob with frequencies to use, than a snob without frequencies. I have a knob on my radio, if the conversation sounds like 11 meters. I turn the knob.... Numbers are everything, they keep the felons in washington from selling out frequencies ..

RE: A Radio for ARES

by WA6BFH on October 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I liked VWM's comment about "public relations" HiHi! In fact, I liked all of VWM's comments!

To some extent I also though disdain the relative awareness, or lack thereof, of Ham's to know and understand both the legal reqirements for their own licensed opeation, as well as those of compatible adjacent "Land Mobile" services. All of my repeaters are assembled from surplus "Land Mobile" equipment, and several of the radios that I use in my truck, or at home are as well -- now all re-tuned for the Amateur Radio 6 Meter, 2 Meter, 135, 70, or 33 centimeter bands!

Land mobile radios (Motorola, GE, RCA, Johnson, etc.) would I think fit the bill for the authors concerns!

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K2LCK on October 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Better to have ham bands , even if they do sound like CB, as some do now, than no ham bands at all. The differance is in our numbers. Failure to realize this is another byproduct of the dumbing down of the licenses. Remember the save 11 contest, and what happened to 2 mHz of 222?, and BPL?? All these are, without a doubt a result of campaign contributions to the felons in Washington, which we do not have the funds to even come close to matching.. And, BTW, only an idiot is stupid enuff to call an idiot an idiot. I do a slow burn when I hear "first personal", or "seventy threes" or "come back", or some of the impoliteness, but , with admittedly sometimes great effort, I turn the other cheek with an often realized goal of remaining a gentleman.. And if I do forget how to run my W32 over the year, well just getting senile, I guess, nothing to be condemmed for. Ed

RE: A Radio for ARES

by W4LGH on October 11, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

"I disagree with the above "CB" referance. It is the "elete" ham attitude , no longer justified, which maintains the gulf between the two services."

This is simply NOT true, and was NOT meant to be degrading in any way. Many many HAM's came from CB. Although most won't admit it, its a simple fact. My suggestion of using CB was purely, If you want a SIMPLE radio to use, and for some reason you can NOT program in a couple of simplex freqs and a couple of local repeater freqs... maybe EVERYONE (from an emergency communications stand point) would be better off!

I certainly realize that there is a learning curve for everone who gets involved with amateur radio, but certainly learn how to work and program your radios before you get involved with any Emergency communications services. I also believe that this training is far more important to know and understand than many of these govt training classes that everyone seems to think you need to take, and 99% of the hams out there will NEVER use it! However 100% of the hams out there WILL want to use their radio. That point being taken, then you are RIGHT about the NUMBERS.

And if this isn't scary enough for you, don't forget that the ARRL wants the FCC to grandfather in these same people into HF!!! If the masses aren't forced into learning about their radios, they won't, just good ole Human Nature. None of us will do anything if not required to, only a select few that have a natural curiousity.

#1 learn how radio works.
#2 learn how to work your radio.
#3 get a few years of experience under your belt. (nothing beats experience!!)
#4 then get involved with Emergency services!

I really don't think that is asking to much....
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: A Radio for ARES

by K2LCK on October 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

time to let this thread die... Frankly Scarlett.

RE: A Radio for ARES

by WA6BFH on October 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Good points Alan, all the way around!

I recently read an Op-ed piece in QST that decried the nature of lack of interest and electronic or radio knowledge amongst Ham’s of the last 10 to 15 years. I thought that was pretty funny, since the ARRL has set fourth the present day licensing conditions that have lead to this malaise!

73! de John