Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
Scott Benjamin (VE3VVF)
on
October 18, 2006
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With the recent article regarding vintage gear or boat anchors I began to think about the computers we use in our shacks. I know there are some who have not made the jump to having a computer in the shack and that is definitely acceptable. Paper logs and hand controlling your rigs is still a widely acceptable operational method. Operators heavy into contesting, on the other hand, have become very adept at controlling their rigs and keeping track of their QSOs with their computers with the speed and accuracy I could only dream of attaining and that’s great. The proper tool for the proper job is what I was always taught. As amateur radio operators we are a diverse bunch and there is a broad range of methods in which we take part in this wonderful hobby.
I think that this hobby, more than many others, has a strong movement of reusing, scrounging and hand-me-down equipment…what I like to refer to as recycling. I am definitely one and my computer is the perfect example. It is an old P100 and suits my needs to a T. I run Windows 95 and it boots up in a flash. I do not have the internet in my shack and likely never will due to logistics that is just fine for my needs. I have a DOS-based logging program which has limited rig-controlling capabilities but it is fast, easy to use and takes up very little disk space. My rigs are not PC-controllable anyway.
Where I’m headed with this is that I recently had a chance to upgrade my PC to something much newer, faster and with a more up-to-date OS. I resisted the temptation. Older computers seem to get tossed in the landfills just because there are better replacements out there. The old one is working fine and suits my needs so why should I upgrade? My concern is that in our quest for the best shack we will dispose of computers that do their job just fine just to have something newer. When I shut down my PC I get the “It is now safe to turn off your computer” screen in less than 3 seconds. That’s more than I can say for my laptop in the house running XP. Sometimes simpler is better. I know there will always be the operators who are on the cutting edge of gear, computers, antennas and the like but I think that for the most part as far as the computers go, the “Simpler is better” mindset may be the best and maybe, just maybe, a few of those older PC’s will live to see another day.
Best regards,
VE3VVF
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W3TUA on October 18, 2006
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I've picked up some "oldies" by the roadside before and turned them into Linux firewalls or slideshow presenters for other people.
My old PC before upgrading was an AMD K2-550 and it did a great job. I just had to have rig control and automatic logging for contests. You can find plenty of those PC's as orphans for a cheap price these days.
If you don't notice how slow it is then it is just right for you ;-)
73,
Korey
W3TUA
Towanda, PA
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KG2B on October 18, 2006
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I've been thinking about this issue lately myself...thanks for the posting.
I bet I can get, cheap or free, an older laptop from my sister. It runs Windows 95. My question is, will the various ham programs run on Windows 95? I'd guess that I'd like some sort of simple logging program; something to run PSK31; MAYBE other things that need internet access, maybe not.
Anyone have experience with this?
73,
Ray, KG2B
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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I can't believe it.
We are actually seeing an ARTICLE on SAVING OLD computers ?
I can think of NO item that MORE DESERVES to be trashed.
Justifying saving it as some 'green' goodness is nonsense: old computers are broken up and the good bits ARE recycled. They are one of the few items that junk guys have an INCENTIVE to recycle because they recover the metals for $$$$.
Crap is MEANT to be thrown out. Windows 95?? Gimme a break!
Ask yourself: 'if I die tomorrow, will this stuff be used by someone else or will it go in one of the 6 loads of a dumpster that my estate will have to bring in to clean out the crap?'
If you think I am kidding think again.
BTW, the answer to that question for me is a switch: E-Bay...or TRASH?
Donation..yuh right. Sell it and then give the charity the money. And BTW, chances are that charities wouldn't even TAKE your W95 machine...
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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"Older computers seem to get tossed in the landfills just because there are better replacements out there..."
----------------------------------
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
They are broken up, separated, and recovered for metals. The trash guys make $$$$ from your old computer. I can think of NO household item that is better recycled in the trash chain than an old computer.
If THIS is the justification for keeping your junk, then please don't invite others to be trash horders.
"When in doubt, CHUCK IT OUT!"
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KX8N on October 18, 2006
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"Crap is MEANT to be thrown out."
"Crap" is something that no longer works or serves your needs. I author DVDs, process video and audio, and do other processor intensive work on my computer. So no, for me, keeping an old pre-Pentium computer will not work. But the author's point is that if your computer DOES do what you need it to do (logging, word processing, surfing the net), then don't throw it away just for the sake of having something new. And he's entirely right. We are so conditioned to keep up with neighbors and co-workers that it doesn't matter if what we have is any good or not.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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I can read.
I keep an old computer for DOS stuff that fails on newer systems.
So what?
Does that mean I SHOULDN'T BUY a new computer that is a fraction of the cost of the very old one; is 1000 times better; and enables me to do things I never dreamed of 20 years ago?
No; it is, IMO, one junk horder looking for others to discuss the wonderful world of junk. He is correct that it is an unusually strong pathology in ham-dom. Which is tragic.
It has nothing to do with ham radio. Nada. Doesn't belong as an article IMO.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KT8K on October 18, 2006
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If your PC is NOT connected to the internet, you can save a lot of money by getting one that meets your needs and then NOT upgrading it, which always seems to require more memory/speed/disk space/etc.
If you ARE connected to the internet, however, you need to think about up-to-date security measures, which generally require require up-to-the-minute software updates and fairly current hardware. Otherwise, your PC could be sitting there spewing out spam and other trash onto the net, unbeknownst to you, essentially hijacked by internet criminals.
My wife's old Win95 PC, which was left on 24/7, had 42 different infections when I got to it. It was serving files to gosh-knows-who, pinging the internet to advertise that it was there, and had dozens of viruses, trojans, and other malware routines embedded in it. She is not very computer-savvy, and was appalled to find out she had been a part of this huge problem. Now she leaves the old machine off when not in use, and I have it set up with a firewall (zonealarm), antivirus (McAfee), and anti-spyware software with either automatic updates (McAfee) or automatic update checking enabled.
I also subscribe to Windows Secrets newsletter (http://windowssecrets.com), which consolidates the family of what were once known as "Woody's Watch" and "Brian's Buzz" email newsletters. They give great advice on internet security for the home, along with weekly-or-so reviews of everything Microsoft (or related). Their advice on computer security is indispensable to me. Check out "Past Issues" -- every one has a "Security Baseline" section. Similar info is available on-line for you MAC users, who are not spared from internet attack either.
Bottom line: Vintage PCs can work fine and be very economical, but can pose a real problem if ever connected to the internet.
Practice safe hex!
73 de kt8k - Tim
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N9XCR on October 18, 2006
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Older computer don't even have to run Winblows to be useful. They'll run a hell of a lot better with Linux. Actually, just about ANY computer will run better with Linux. I've seen a lot of ham software for Linux on the net. That would be worth looking into as well.
Chip, a computer isn't crap just because it can't run Windows 2000 or XP. The router for my home network is a Pentium 166MHz machine running Linux. It's a hell of a lot better than any router I could buy. Hell, I even block all known malware and adware sites from being accessed by any machine on my network by adding them to the /etc/hosts file. I don't see most banner ads, and I don't even have to scan my machines for garbage any more, although I do anyways occassionally. I don't ever find anything anymore. I couldn't do that with some crappy D-Link or LinkSys router. They restrict the number of entries to less than 20.
Chris
N9XCR
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K1CJS on October 18, 2006
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I won't say I never get rid of PCs, but I still have a few sitting around, mostly as give-aways. Just because something is outdated doesn't make it junk. However, it is the 'toss it out' attitude that makes me sick.
The trouble with todays society is the 'throw it away' mentality that is so prevalent now. It is so much easier to get a 'new one'. Years ago, things were made to last. Table lamps usually had the cords replaced before the lamps themselves were. If you got a TV or a stereo, the cabinet was made of wood. Things weren't made to be thrown out when they broke. Now, if anything breaks, it gets tossed, nothing is made to last, and the landfills and disposal areas are choked full.
If it weren't for the precious metals on the contact areas of the computer boards, the computers would go the same route. Less than 1% of the 'recycled' computers are actually recycled--the rest are tossed out, just like the rest of the trash of our disposable society.
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The Next Generation of VoIP!
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by W4XKE on October 18, 2006
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Like it or not, computers and ham radio have eloped and the marriage is not annullable. I am presently having a dilemma here because two of my computers are running Windows 98 SE, which has been orphaned by Microsoft and one of them is my main ham computer.
For now, I’m continuing to run 98, but it’s time is coming to an end. For example, there is a new generation of VoIP that can be downloaded free for a few more months. The catch is, it runs under XP. I have tweaked my 98 machines to utilize the software to a large degree but it is still a bit of a compromise.
I run IRLP node 4007 here under Redhat 9, which is integrated to EchoLink (215860), an EchoIRLP station. I often call up DX repeaters from all over the world while I’m out mobile or at work, using my handheld FT-50 and enjoy crystal-clear QSOs.
The other day, Sergei commented, “I love it when you Yanks connect here to our repeater. We love to hear you talk. We’ve tried, but we cannot emulate your charming accent.” IRLP and EchoLink are a real hoot!
Now you can get a new HF rig absolutely free and you don’t even need to play with com ports and firewalls. This is an invention by Doug, VE3EFC. Doug has really put a smile on a lot of faces recently. Get your own new radio at:
>
http://www.qsonet.com/programs.html
>
One old ham told me the other day, “Well, my ‘hammin’ days are about over. I going to be moving to an assisted-care facility next week and so I can’t take any of my gear with me. I told him to go to Doug’s QSONET web site and get back on the air. You would think that I just gave him a brand new radio. Actually, it was Doug who saved his ‘hammin’ days! Thank you, VE3EFC!
Johnny
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Johnny,
Thanks from all of us for the great and helpful link.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Sell it or toss it. Don't let yoiur heirs deal with that. It's very painful for them.
Bucky Fuller had this bizarre hoarding fanaticism/disease and passed it off as a time capsule of his life.
Ugh!
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KC0SHZ on October 18, 2006
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Would it run Linux?
SuSE has a lot of ham radio applications, as do the Debian distros.
Linux gives you OpenOffice.org which is about 95.6% of MS Office for free.
I was thinking about doing that with an old laptop that runs Win 98. Might keep it as Win 98 though.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by AE6RO on October 18, 2006
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This is part of what makes America great and the rest of the world hates us for it.
Throwing out a working, perfectly good computer just because it is a few years old. Shame!
If someone's got an older model that works for them there is no moral imperative to junk it out for a newer model. Same with cars and household appliances. At least donate it to a charity if you no longer want it and it still works.
Really, Chip! 73, AE6RO
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Why throw out that diet coke bottle? It's perfectly good!
Why throw out that newspaper--it's perfectly good!
Why throw out that plastic butter dish--it's perfectly good!
Why throw out that chicken bone--it can be used as a sculpture of found objects--AND IT'S PERFECTLY GOOD!
Why throw out that used tooth brush--it's perfectly good!
The point--GET THE POINT PLEASE-- is that once in a while it helps to keep something as a backup, or find a cheap second use. But SEEKING a justification is the first sign of this bizarre hoarding ailemnt.
I remember a newspaper story a few years back about a hoarder who kept diet coke plastic bottles--thousands and thousands. They were STACKED in his rooms; he had made a pathway between stacks. Each had a label of when he drank it.
Apparently it brought back found memories of each event.
It's perfectly good!
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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And even more hoarding in the NEWS!
CNN headline today: DEAD POSTMAN'S CLOSET STUFFED WITH MAIL
Guess it was 'perfectly good'!
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K2GW on October 18, 2006
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This isn't an either or question.
I have an old cast off computer running Windows 95 that I use for a packet set-up on one side of the shack. Works fine for sending and recieving NTS messages and APRS. And it has a comm port to connect to the TNC! At $0 cost , it still works fine.
I also have a modern laptop running Windows XP and the latest version of Logger and wireless internet to get DX spots, logging and rig control.
Both work fine for their intended purposes.
73
Gary, K2GW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K5UJ on October 18, 2006
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w1yw's outrage is amusing. i run a win98 machine at home because i employ an old dos logging program that works for me so i use it. it also has a 9 pin serial port. unfortunately, ham gear with pc interfaces and ham software are out of date. there are some new ham products on the market that have 9 pin serial jacks instead of USB (although a converter could be employed). anyway there are lots of old OS and platforms being employed in industry by professionals--the idea it all has to be the latest is silly. More important, as someone else alluded to, the older machines (from ~ 2000 on) are good candidates for linux which runs great on them--i'm using one right now with SeaMonkey and the KDE desktop on a micron pentium III formerly running win 2K.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by WILLY on October 18, 2006
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Scott Benjamin (VE3VVF) on October 18, 2006
" - - -
Older computers seem to get tossed in the landfills just because there are better replacements out there. The old one is working fine and suits my needs so why should I upgrade? My concern is that in our quest for the best shack we will dispose of computers that do their job just fine just to have something newer. - - -"
I agree with your broad, general premise. The technology and equipment that is out there and at the same time considered to be out of date, therefore supposedly obsolete, is phenominal.
If it works, you're happy, why not use it? :)
But one should not go to sleep because one is happy. There is nothing wrong either, with keeping an eye on what is happening. You never know when a super deal might come along - that's one way to 'upgrade' for little cost.
I do want to mention one potential pitfall from using old computers.
Hardware failure and replacement.
Sometimes the older style of stuff is hard to find, or has become expensive.
That is where forums like this can come into play. :)
Those that have the old stuff sitting doing nothing, can help out those that need those parts.
Interesting article you posted. Thanks.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by WILLY on October 18, 2006
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
"Why throw out that diet coke bottle? It's perfectly good!
Why throw out that newspaper--it's perfectly good!
Why throw out that plastic butter dish--it's perfectly good!
Why throw out that chicken bone--it can be used as a sculpture of found objects--AND IT'S PERFECTLY GOOD!
Why throw out that used tooth brush--it's perfectly good! "
Your analogies are ridiculous. But you already know that.
"The point--GET THE POINT PLEASE-- "
No. YOU get the point, please.
It is like this: Not everybody in this world has a Phd. and the income that comes with it. Therefore, they have to 'make do' ... perhaps that concept is foreign to you.
You are showing a "Let 'em eat cake" attitude.
"Just toss it and buy a new one .... la-de-da... easy as pie". It is NOT that easy for everybody.
In the early days of ham radio, the operators were famous for scrounging parts to build up their equipment. A closer analogy would be today's hams scrounging old computer systems together, sharing ideas to make them work, etc. while spending very little money. THAT's using one's ingenuity to solve something, not the no-brain solution of simply using one's pocketbook.
I'll venture that if you volunteer to buy everyone that posts in this thread a new computer system, and a matching laptop system to go with it, that everyone here will take you up on it - and let you throw away their old systems too.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by MRCOFFEE on October 18, 2006
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There is nothing wrong with hanging onto a older PC, especially if you use it. I have quite a few PC that I have recycled into useful roles, both at home, and at work. Just because YOU'VE outgrown it, doesnt mean it is useless.
I rebuilt a large number of older Macs, mostly for the fun of rebuilding them, but also as the parent of a special needs child, I wanted to put together a basic system my son could use as a learning tool. Of the 60+ systems I put together, I have less then 4 left. All went to families with special needs kids,(Classmates of my son) all are used on a daily basis, all have added to the lives of these kids. They dont care that it isnt the latest or greatest.
Sure the kids could have used new Macs, except none of the freeware would run on the new macs. And there are a lot more families out there that would happily put these older systems to work.
W1YW is wrong, just because you need something better doesnt mean it is "crap" or "junk". I bet you can find tons of HAMs out there that were given rigs that were considered "junk" by someone, that they happily used.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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No. YOU get the point, please.
It is like this: Not everybody in this world has a Phd. and the income that comes with it. Therefore, they have to 'make do' ... perhaps that concept is foreign to you.
----------------
Then hate me for this:
If you can't afford a $300 laptop then don't get into ham radio.
Hams bragging about loving poverty is not the American way.
I bet if you dropped the brewskies, coffees, and, the inevitable SMOKES, then you could afford that equipment in a few months.
I've been poor. I learned how to budget.
Suck it up.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Ooops! My bad!
On E-bay you can buy a WINDOWS 2000 WIFI laptop for $167--NOT $300.
So sell some of the junk you have laying around and get real.
Stop your ciggies for a few weeks (days?) and get real.
Or if you can't afford to SELL your junk,or give up your beloved smokes, then either get out of ham radio or STOP COMPLAINING and VERNERATING hoarding as 'thrift'.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by WILLY on October 18, 2006
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
"Then hate me for this: "
Easy there. I don't think anybody hates you.
Pities you for being out of touch with reality maybe.
Thinks you're an arrogant boob, perhaps.
But not hate.
"If you can't afford a $300 laptop then don't get into ham radio. "
You got me there. I haven't shopped in a while.
If you're saying that brand new, state of the art laptops are down in the $300 price range, then that is news to me. Since I'm not about to buy one now, I'll just believe you.
You'll be giving away dozens of them, I suppose.
"Hams bragging about loving poverty is not the American way. "
Bragging? Loving poverty?
I didn't see that. Must have missed it. Or - you have creative reading skills. Maybe you fancy yourself clairvoyant?
"I bet if you dropped the brewskies, coffees, and, the inevitable SMOKES, then you could afford that equipment in a few months."
Now you've proven you are not clairvoyant. None of those apply to me. Btw, why are you shouting about smokes?
"I've been poor."
Then you have no excuse for not knowing better.
"I learned how to budget."
No surprise. Poor people certainly seem to have more incentive to learn that skill versus those that don't need it.
"Suck it up."
How profound. I'm impressed.
Regarding all your posts in this thread:
Thank you for revealing so much about your personality.
For you see - you are not the only one that read between the lines a bit. :)
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Suck it up Willy. And get a callsign.
Or stay 'poor' and pick another hobby. How about the hobby or working hard and being self reliant--if that shoe fits?
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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"I'll venture that if you volunteer to buy everyone that posts in this thread a new computer system, and a matching laptop system to go with it, that everyone here will take you up on it - and let you throw away their old systems too"...
--------------------
I've given my share of rigs and computers to those who need and deserve them.
Of course, since you don't have a CALLSIGN, you'd never make that list WILLY.
73 (that's ham radio lingo for 'best regards')
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KC8VWM on October 18, 2006
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I wonder how many computers the average household owns?
I have one in my shack running a weather station server,
I have 3 laptops
One is a Gateway 2000 model. This is basically my junk ham radio computer. It is dedicated for satellite tracking, Packet, PSK, SSTV, Echolink and similar ham radio digital communication related stuff. If I use it outdoors and if it gets banged up and it breaks, or gets stolen during field day, a hamfest or whatever etc...- Oh, well... no great loss here. It works great as a companion to the Yaesu FT 817ND for contest logging, NTS traffic stuff, field day etc..
The other laptop I own is the latest 2006 high speed processor mega-ram model for all the latest WiFi, Itunes and intense graphic program stuff. Tons of storage, memory, DVD burning, slots for every memory storage card ever made and high resolution video editing capabilities.
Next on my list is a 2002 Pocket PC - Compaq Ipaq with GPS sleeve, WiFi card and 1 or 2 memory flashcards for portable computing stuff. Comes in very handy for mobile or portable computing environments.
So basically what I am saying here is that each one of these PC's has it's own basic function.
For example, why should I carry around a 2006 laptop in my car attached to a GPS when a Pocket PC with a GPS sleeve will serve that same function more efficiently instead? Also how do I take my weather server on the road when traveling and still have a dedicated APRS weather server at home?
I found out that the idea of having one latest model "super" computer doesn't necessarily fit all your individual needs and requirements for every situation.
73 Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by NI0C on October 18, 2006
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VE3WF:
I liked your article. Our Field Day group uses an old laptop with the DOS based TR Log program for logging contacts. It's simple, reliable, and doesn't latchup.
I only replace my hamshack computer when it breaks and is unrepairable.
(Thumbing my nose at W1YW).
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by WI0T on October 18, 2006
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Chip Wrote:
" I can't believe it.
We are actually seeing an ARTICLE on SAVING OLD computers ?
I can think of NO item that MORE DESERVES to be trashed. "
Amen. I actually agree with Chip on this point.
I use an "older" machine for the radio incase RF gets
into it fries something (its a Win 98SE AMD K6-2 500
Mhz Compaq Presario). If RF got into my Dell Dimension
8400 I use for work & classwork, that would be a real
problem.
There is a lot of free/low cost software out there for
the newer digital modes that is really fun to try out.
When my older Win 98SE box won't run it, Poof!, It's
gone. I'll probably need a new machine for work anyway
and then the Dell gets a new job...
As far as Linux goes I've found that the older
machines don't run it very well if you run some
sort of X window system (KDE, Gnome, etc) on it. I used
sh, csh, bash for too many years to be enamored with
that user interface. IMHO, for snappy X window
performance you need a good graphics card, good
interface (PCI express, or AGP 4x) plenty of memory
and good processor. Otherwise I find it frustrating.
Hence older machines get recycled/trashed here...
73,
Rod WI0T
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KT6K on October 18, 2006
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"There is nothing wrong with hanging onto a older PC, especially if you use it. I have quite a few PC that I have recycled into useful roles, both at home, and at work. Just because YOU'VE outgrown it, doesnt mean it is useless."
And, for those with the capability, you can upgrade too. But not everybody has the capability or the time or the desire; they can buy 'their-box'.
Rather, it is the 'never-ending-story' Piling Higher & Deeper that is useless, do you agree?
I enjoy the 'new-stuff', but I have to admit one of my 'boxes' that I use for digital photography is almost six years old; I have upgraded it four times and it's bigger and faster then anything you could buy off the shelf at the local geek outlet (my favorite hardware store).
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KT6K on October 18, 2006
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p.s. As far as anything older than 6 years, my Great Aunt Milly is using it for a typewriter.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Thumbing my nose at W1YW).
----------------------
That's perfectly OK OM; you're entitled. Be sure to wipe it ,too.
As long as you don't have a TISSUE room where you hoard USED tissues...
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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w1yw's outrage is amusing.
---------------------------------------
Good. Ya got it:-)
Just call me the Steve Colbert of Part 97
;-)
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KC8VWM on October 18, 2006
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A most fitting photo wouldn't you say?
W1YW - Keeping America A Cleaner Place...
http://thankyoustephencolbert.org/colbertvac.jpg
73
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KF4HR on October 18, 2006
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I don't enjoy upgrading my shack PC, but unfortunately I've found it difficult not to. Then again, I use it for multiple purposes. I tried to hang on to my old PIII/933mhz running Win98 for as long as possible, but alas it couldn't keep up. I wanted to run digital SSTV and the PIII machine was having problems with that. And I wanted to run multiple high processing time programs; tracking satellites, PSK31 and other digital modes, control rotators & rigs, TNC's, etc. Finally I gave in and built a P4/3.2ghz machine and life is good again (at least for now).
Scott - You hit the nail on the head. The type of PC in the shack really depends on what applications you expect out of it.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KI6BYJ on October 18, 2006
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While hoarding old garbage is something to be avoided, if you have a computer setup that has properly functioning hardware, there are lots of options. I don't want to be a linux zealot here, but there are a lot of cd-rom bootable distributions that are really functional on fairly crappy ( >=350MHz PII) machines. I am typing this posting right now from a Linux release called Damn Small Linux, which I booted from a 50MB cd-rom, but can also be installed to a hard drive, or boot from a USB pen drive. There are also a ton of other live cd-rom releases that are customized for ham radio.
* Damn Small Linux - http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/
* Knoppix - http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/
* "Amateurradio with Knoppix" - http://www.afu-knoppix.de/
*AI9NL's "Harv's Hamshack Hacks" - http://hamshack-hack.sourceforge.net/
And for God's sake, if you are that attached to DOS based programs, run it on a better OS. I don't mean linux or some snazzy Window's vista OS, I'm talking about OpenDOS. Some masochists decided that they wanted to hold on to MS-DOS forever and made an open source version that has a ton of bells and whistles (i.e. TCP/IP stack, advanced filesystem support, etc.).
* http://www.gcfl.net/FreeDOS/
* http://www.freedos.org/ <-- Wasn't up when I posted it, but there is a google cache.
The other option is to just recycle the system so someone else can enjoy it. Out in California a prominent place to do this is the Alameda County Computer Resource Center. They take the "cream of the crap" and make decent computer systems that are available at a low/no-cost to our anemic school systems and non-profit organizations.
http://www.accrc.org/
These folks have a great slogan:
"Obsolescence is Just a Lack of Imagination"
73's
KI6BYJ Aaron
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KG2B on October 18, 2006
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Thanks to some who had some good practical advice on the hardware needed for modern ham software.
Some of you others need to take one of those very large, veterinary-sized chill pills, and spend more time on the air than on internet boards....
73,
Ray, KG2B
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by WA9SVD on October 18, 2006
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While there's much to be said (for and against) the "new" computers, there are still rpoblems, which ever you use. I have never had a computer/peripheral intreface that I couldn't EASILY resolve, whether it was RS-232c or Parallel Port, on the "OLD" type computers. Usually a twaek, or proper cable was involved.
With USB? My EPSON scanner, on it's own, seems to get lost every two weeks, come rain or come shine. I thought it was the desktop computer. But it does the same trick on a new COMPAQ laptop. The scanner just gets lost, and the shaftware has to be uninstalled, and reinstalled, before the scanner will be recognized. again (Bear in mind, the laptop has NOT been connected to the Internet yet, so there should be no virus threat as of yet; it's STILL running on provided and canned software.)
But it's the same on the desktop; the USB ports get "forgotten" every few weeks, and the last time the EPSON uninstall program for the scanner also took out the EPSON inkjet printer files, requiring a full reinstall of the printer, and realignment of the print heads, which took up a major portion of the ink in the cartridges.
THIS IS PROGRESS?
And most Amateur Radio software requires a SERIAL port at specific addresses. THAT, (aside from the hardware non-interface) is PROGRESS? That the USB bypass and ignore the traditional Serial Port addresses?
AH, yes. It's planned obsolescence at it's ultimate finest.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Relax Ray.
It's truth mixed with satire.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by PE1NPG on October 18, 2006
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I totally agree, I use some old laptops (PI-100MHz and up) for digital comm's, psk31 etc. They cost me abt 25 euros (20 dollars!) to pick them up. Running with W98 they do a fine job, with no complications that I sometimes have with my up-to-date gear (P4-2.8GHz with XP-pro). Have some oldies? i'm still interested!
73 de Jean-Pierre, PE1NPG
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N2EY on October 18, 2006
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I agree that spending money to keep an old machine running is a waste. But nowadays there's no real reason to do so. I haven't bought a computer, or parts for one, in *years*. I do buy supplies but that's unavoidable.
Sure, I have one nice newer XP box for the things Win98 or Win 95 cannot do. Does the job.
For other applications I have older machines that were obtained *free* for the taking. Parts from two or three old ones are combined and the result is plenty useful. What's not useful gets tossed.
I used to find 486s and first-generation Pentiums, 14 inch monitors and dot matrix printers. Now I find 400 MHz PIIs with CD burners and DVD players, 17 inch monitors and 10/100 NICs. As the pickings get newer, my oldest stuff goes out.
The best parts are that I know how the machines work, I install the features I want, (two floppy drives and two CD drives per box, for example) and if something goes bad I can fix it fast - or just pull a spare computer off the shelf...
All from stuff nobody wanted.
Sure, maybe you can get a new lapper for $300 or whatever. I'd rather spend that $300 on stuff I cannot get for free.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KG6WLV on October 18, 2006
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"Then hate me for this: "
Easy there. I don't think anybody hates you.
Pities you for being out of touch with reality maybe.
Thinks you're an arrogant boob, perhaps.
But not hate.
No you're wrong there. I hate Chip. He's an arrogant ass.
Intelligence without character is arrogance.
Sophistication without character is snobbery.
Confidence without character is aggression.
You either see this or you don't. Chip doesn't.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W8ZNX on October 18, 2006
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for about a year
had a computer in the ham shack
relised prefer not to have
a computer in the shack
the only computer i own
is the computer at work
don't have a computer at home
like it that way
Mac
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by AB9LZ on October 18, 2006
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"No you're wrong there. I hate Chip. He's an arrogant ass."
Well, from the posts I've seen here on eham, that sir... is an understatement.
BTW, my old Linux beater does a fine, virus free, job of running psk31, programming pic chips, and looking up calls on qrz. (Often at the same time.) No compelling reason to buy a new one here.
73 m.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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You can make silly statements all you want.
But if you can't afford to BE an (on the air) ham you SHOULDN'T be a ham: everyone has things they'd like to buy that they can't afford. Frankly the cost is so low for ham radio compared to your ciggies or morning coffee that you have no excuse.
If you think being a ham is hoarding junk, then show me where this is a ham tradition, and defined in Part 97.
I will take extra special efforts to help vanquish this stereotype.
I'd appreciate your help!
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Say...for all of you CHEAP MISERS out there...
I just priced out a COMPLETE station for HF on e-bay.
Here's what I found:
HF 80's vintage transceivers: $160-220
Windows 2000 WiFi Laptops: $160
Mike: $20
Keyer: :$25
Wire and rope: $15
TOTAL (min): *** $370 **
Compare this to:
Cost of your 2 packs a day of ciggies: $11.90
3 Cups of Java : $8.50
Daily Brewsky: $ 1.80
TOTAL (approx): *** $22 *** per DAY
That means with LESS THAN 3 WEEKS OF YOUR CARNAL DEPRIVATIONS, you will have ENOUGH money to have a decent station UP AND RUNNING.
So, let's stop all this nonsense about hoarding and miserly habits being passed off as 'green'concerns and thrift. It is truly bull poop.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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"W1YW - Keeping America A Cleaner Place...
http://thankyoustephencolbert.org/colbertvac.jpg"
-----------------------------
Damn straight!
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N2EY on October 18, 2006
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Quoting W1YW:
"But if you can't afford to BE an (on the air) ham you SHOULDN'T be a ham: everyone has things they'd like to buy that they can't afford."
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is there some minimum level of expenditure required? If I can build a complete station for, say, $100, is that OK?
"Frankly the cost is so low for ham radio compared to your ciggies or morning coffee that you have no excuse."
I don't smoke and I don't drink coffee.
But I think you do have a bit of a point there.
About 25 years ago, I knew a ham who was always complaining about not having enough radio money.
He smoked at least 2-1/2 packs a day. This was when a pack was something like $1.20-1.50 if you bought in cartons - which he did.
I suggested that if he cut down from 2-1/2 packs per day to 1 pack per day, and put the cigarette money in the bank, he'd have over $500 per year of radio money.
He looked at me as if I were totally nuts. As if I'd suggested that he just go without eating for a year so he could have a new rig.
That was when I began to truly understand the power of an addiction.
"If you think being a ham is hoarding junk, then show me where this is a ham tradition, and defined in Part 97."
I don't think 'hoarding junk' is a good thing. Reusing something isn't 'hoarding junk' though.
Part 97 says one of our basis and purposes is technical education. Learning how to use technology - even if it isn't the latest thing - is part of that.
"I will take extra special efforts to help vanquish this stereotype."
What stereotype?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by AB9LZ on October 18, 2006
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w1yw:
"Say...for all of you CHEAP MISERS out there..."
"Daily Brewsky: $ 1.80"
Dude... you drink $1.80 beer? talk about the pot callin the kettle...
73 m.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KT1B on October 18, 2006
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"I think that this hobby, more than many others, has a strong movement of reusing, scrounging and hand-me-down equipment…what I like to refer to as recycling. I am definitely one and my computer is the perfect example. It is an old P100 and suits my needs to a T. I run Windows 95 and it boots up in a flash. I do not have the internet in my shack and likely never will due to logistics that is just fine for my needs. I have a DOS-based logging program which has limited rig-controlling capabilities but it is fast, easy to use and takes up very little disk space. My rigs are not PC-controllable anyway."
-------------------------------------------------------
If you really want to see some speed out of that machine, instead of using win95, use Desqview. Desqview was a dos based multitasker that worked reasonably well on machines much slower than what you have. It will allow you to simultaneously run as many dos programs as you can fit in memory and will either task switch them if that is appropriate or if necessary will time share so that they can continue running in the background while another program has the focus.
I remember using desqview back in the dos days. Was great to be able to download using a modem and do other things at the same time.
Qemm386 was the memory manager that went along with that program. Couple that with Dos 6 and with a computer like what you have it will boot in just a couple of seconds.
Back in the 80's I used to have an 8088 at 8 mHz and I used DoubleDos which was a neat little program that would divide your memory in half and allow you to run two programs simultaneously. The main reason for doing that was to be able to download in the background with the modem and still allow you to run another program.
I also tried DR's Concurrent Dos on the 8088 which allowed multiple users and multi-tasking. As a test I had an apple IIe piece of rubbish running a terminal program, connected to the 8088 via a null modem cable. With concurrent dos the apple would see a dos prompt and you could run simple programs at the same time run multiple programs on the console of the 8088 machine.
It was pretty neat.
I don't recommend going that far back in time. I do keep an 8088 as a museum piece, it still works, but doesn't have much practical value except as a sample of computing from 20 years ago.
Older computers, 500 mHz plus, with usb, sound, some hard drive space and reasonable memory are still usable and will run most modern software, at least in the ham radio world. You have to keep them clean and in top shape or it's easy for them to get bogged down but in the hands of a skilled user you can still get quite a bit out of them.
I wouldn't recommend putting money into a machine of that speed but normally you wouldn't have to. They are normally available for the asking and if you want an extra machine to accomplish a certain task then they are a good way of going.
If you are going to join something like propnet and want a dedicated machine for the task then asking around it should be quite easy to get something that will do the job and not cost much of anything.
If your old machine has 96 MB of ram or more, you will probably experience much better performance and stability if you switch from 98 or ME to Windows 2000 which is an NT based OS and works very well.
I have no Linux experience so I will not comment on that OS.
I still have a couple of 486-50 mHz notebooks, Toshiba with color screens. No sound, no usb, but they do take type one PCMCIA cards, very slow but there are some tasks that they can do including anything that is dos based. They're also small and can be networked using an adapter that plugs in the paralle port, or a PCMCIA card. Not totally useless. Could function as a router. Even a simple one running KA9Q or similar software.
The old and slower stuff can still be useful, if you have it or can get it for nothing or next to nothing. Just don't spend any money on the old stuff when new computers start at $200 or less.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KT1B on October 18, 2006
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I've been thinking about this issue lately myself...thanks for the posting.
I bet I can get, cheap or free, an older laptop from my sister. It runs Windows 95. My question is, will the various ham programs run on Windows 95? I'd guess that I'd like some sort of simple logging program; something to run PSK31; MAYBE other things that need internet access, maybe not.
Anyone have experience with this?
73,
Ray, KG2B
----------------------------------------------------
Depends on the speed of the machine. For PSK31 you need a machine that has good sound capabilities. Quality sound capabilities so that you transmit a clean signal.
PSK31 is probably a little more processor intensive than most other ham programs as well.
Just because the notebook is running 95 doesn't mean that it can't run something newer.
Find out the processor, it's speed, the amount of memory in the machine, and the hard drive size. With that information you'd be better able to tell what it can and can't do.
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RE: The Next Generation of VoIP!
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by KT1B on October 18, 2006
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Like it or not, computers and ham radio have eloped and the marriage is not annullable. I am presently having a dilemma here because two of my computers are running Windows 98 SE, which has been orphaned by Microsoft and one of them is my main ham computer.
For now, I’m continuing to run 98, but it’s time is coming to an end. For example, there is a new generation of VoIP that can be downloaded free for a few more months. The catch is, it runs under XP. I have tweaked my 98 machines to utilize the software to a large degree but it is still a bit of a compromise.
--------------------------------------------------------
I can't recommend having old computers as your only machines, they're very handy as secondary machines dedicated to specific tasks.
New machines are as cheap as a couple hundred bucks, with XP Home, that may be a better way to go for your main machine and keep the others ones as secondary machines.
If your win98 machines have enough memory 96 megs or so, you may want to look at win 2000 if you can get a copy at no charge legally. It's based on NT and is much more stable. Think you will be happier with it, it's a big improvement over 98 and still runs well on slower machines. I've used it on a 133 with good results.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KT1B on October 18, 2006
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I don't enjoy upgrading my shack PC, but unfortunately I've found it difficult not to. Then again, I use it for multiple purposes. I tried to hang on to my old PIII/933mhz running Win98 for as long as possible, but alas it couldn't keep up. I wanted to run digital SSTV and the PIII machine was having problems with that. And I wanted to run multiple high processing time programs; tracking satellites, PSK31 and other digital modes, control rotators & rigs, TNC's, etc. Finally I gave in and built a P4/3.2ghz machine and life is good again (at least for now).
Scott - You hit the nail on the head. The type of PC in the shack really depends on what applications you expect out of it.
------------------------------------------------------
Good decision, a 933 could have run any of those applications by itself but not all at the same time. I suspect most of the problems you had were due to 98. If you still use the machine and want to improve it, see if someone has a copy of win2000 for you. Upgrading to an NT based OS will make it run a lot better. I have a P3 1ghz here that I use as a file server, almost a terrabyte of space on that one, it runs fine with XP Pro so Win2k would run well also.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by UNCLEBEER on October 18, 2006
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Man, what are you on?
Just how caustic and mean spirited do you need to be to make yourself feel good? My XYL and I together work about 90-100 hours a week and raise 2 kids. We don't go out and buy new computers every six months. My first rig will be a 80$ kit. I'll have a 10 year old computer sitting next to it (I'm going to name it Chip) because guess what? Being a "CHEAP MISER", as you put it, is the responsible thing to do.
If you want to buy a 160$ rig on ebay and HOPE it works, go ahead. I applaud you for it.
What kind of cigarettes are you smoking for 5.95/pack? Dunhills? I don't smoke but I checked prices on the way home and a carton of camels is 25$ here. That's 2.50 a pack.
I drank a pot of folgers this morning, and the entire CAN which lasts me 3 or 4 weeks cost about 5$ at dollar general so again I don't know where you're coming from with your 2.83$ per cup. I'm drinking a bud light right now out of a 20 pack. My XYL threw out the receipt but I know that 20 pack wasn't anywhere near 36$. So again, where are you coming from with your goofy numbers?
[That means with LESS THAN 3 WEEKS OF YOUR CARNAL DEPRIVATIONS, you will have ENOUGH money to have a decent station UP AND RUNNING.]
Carnal deprivations. Wow, that's cute. What are you, the vice-nazi?
Hey Chip, being trollish is a vice too :-)
Hey, guess what, I've got 6 old computers in my basement. I think in honor of the Chipster, I'm going to cut up the case on one of them to build an enclosure for the 80$ rig I'm building next month. I just saved myself 3$ :-) That's a whole cup of coffee and a tip in Chip-land :-)
Cheers,
KC0YPV
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RE: The Next Generation of VoIP!
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by N6AJR on October 18, 2006
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Well first off, if I choose to have a beer or smoke a ciggerette, I belive this is still the Unites States of America and I am free to do that if I choose to, and I don't need some snot nose kid of 51 to tell me what I can do...:)
I have been a ham since 78 and bought my first computer I think about 84, a tandy model 1 level one with a whopping 4 k of memory, can we say csave/cload...:)
I have about 7 or 8 computers from a 1 g hard drive machine ( printer server,) to my latest Dell from Hell, that took 84 1/2 hours of trouble shooting via phone and internet before the would send me a new one... several are laptops and I use them for different purposes.
Most that will run win 95 or better do ok for me although the majority run XP pro. I ues them for my needs and they seem to do ok for me. I have donated some to the school computer club ( where they take them apart and learn how to fix them,) and sent several to the goodwill.
As far as the original article, yes some older computers will do fine with packet and psk31 and such, and some of my contest logging programs run better on ME or XP. what do YOU need.
As far as the rude comments about hams giving up their beer and smokes for a week , those kind of comments are uncalled for. Those comments make us as a whole look bad and show that some of us were not raised properly by our parents.
I have had ocassionally had a brewski or two in my 58 years, and smoked from age 12 to age 50 then quit a 5 pack a day habit, but that has nothing to do with ham radio.
I not only own 7 or 8 computers but also 7 or 8 hf rigs, 7 or 8 HT's and 7 or 8 mobiles, and at least 7 or 8 antennas. some new some old, all work.
Thing is in this country you can do what you choose, not what some one else thinks is correct, so if you like old computers fine, if not, also fine. If you smoke fine ( but quiting is a really good idea), and the ocassional beer will not harm you (Please don't drive a vehicle after imbibing), and if you like old radios , thats cool, and if you like new ones, that is cool to.
This is a universal hobby, lots of options and you can do as you please. Yea, Freedom is good. Ham radio ain't bad either.
Here is some pics of the new and old ( radios new, me old) stuff currentlly in this iteration of My Shack,.
http://hometown.aol.com/catfishtwo/N6AJR.html
and remember freedom isn't free, ask a vet!
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RE: The Next Generation of VoIP!
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by AE6RO on October 18, 2006
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Since I put down my pipe and skipped the brewskies this week I had to think of something to do.
How 'bout testing the limits of American freedom by sending a QSL card to Voice of Korea (formerly "Radio Pyongyang)? Maybe you can make some new friends and get some attention!
Try it, you'll like it! 73, AE6RO
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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"Hey, guess what, I've got 6 old computers in my basement. "
----------------------------
Assuming that you are not doing a pseudo Beowulf cluster...tell us about the OTHER junk you are hoarding in that basement. . . . .
Exactly what sort of rainy day do you anticipate when the need will prevail to use them?
Hmmmmmm....?
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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"Carnal deprivations. Wow, that's cute. "
-------------------------------------
Thanks. It seemed to fit with the 'hamsexy' image being so described.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Dear N6AJR--
I commend you in your success in giving up smoking and wish you the best of health.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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"As far as the rude comments about hams giving up their beer and smokes for a week , those kind of comments are uncalled for. Those comments make us as a whole look bad and show that some of us were not raised properly by our parents.
I have had ocassionally had a brewski or two in my 58 years, and smoked from age 12 to age 50 then quit a 5 pack a day habit, but that has nothing to do with ham..."
------------------------------
Well, the stereo type didn't just appear out of nowhere.. .
Thanks for putting your health above your habits. Set a good precedent for the bro's who haven't got that message to quit.
Now, I encourage you to drop the pounds. I found that tough, and still do at times.
And don't hoard junk. Your web site seems to be heading in that veign.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by UNCLEBEER on October 18, 2006
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[Exactly what sort of rainy day do you anticipate when the need will prevail to use them?]
3 of the 6 are being cannibalized to make one fair to middlin PC for my sister (for Christmas) That leaves 2 power supplies (wonder what I could use those for? hihi),
a couple motherboards for the trashman, and at least one case that will be bent, cut, and mutilated into project enclosure for a radio kit. Most of the remainder will go to the trash. The other 3 machines will be saved until I find a use for them. One of them is destined to be a linux firewall for my home network. One of them will be on my workbench for whatever radio-related operations I see fit.
KC0YPV
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 18, 2006
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Betcha a cookie they'll still be in the basement on 1 Jan
;-)
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by NA4IT on October 18, 2006
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Mine is an AMD XP1800 with 756MB Ram, and a 20GB hardrive split in half. Runs Windows 98SE with a Wireless B network for my older NEC laptop with Win98SE on it.
Running:
UI-VIEW32 for APRS with Precision Maps to a PK232MBX
WinPack
Digipan
MMSSTV
MMTTY
AirMail2000
and a host of other digital programs.
(Note to self: Get a decent sound card so AGWPE will work!)
Of course for the occasional rig reprogram, I pull out my trusty 486DX Win3.11 Laptop I bought off eBay for $15...that runs off a 12V cig lighter cord hack...
And old computers...I have several nice project boxes built from old cases and my $30 bentop bender and $29 hand punch...
Why don't I upgrade...in the middle of the hills of TN...dial-up is all I can get...no cable on the 3.5 mile road I live on, and the last 2.5 miles of phone cable is a slick...no hi-speed DSL here...but! I still hook up at 48,000! And it stays up ALL DAY LONG!
NA4IT
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N6AJR on October 18, 2006
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Once again I would love to shed a few pounds Chip, problem with diabetes from Agent Orange, Sleep Apnea, and unable to barley walk let alone excersize ( just missing a couple of disk in my spine , minor stuff) I would love to find a way to burn off some of the weight, but on the other hand I am alive and that makes me very happy..
so I appreciate the concerne, but it ain't gonna hapen soon. Thank goodness I have friends who help me build the station and put up antennas for me. I can't say enough about the folks who help.
Remember, I'm FAT and your UGLY, but I can loose weight...:)
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N6AJR on October 18, 2006
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also ... He who dies with the most TOYS wins!!
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KC8VWM on October 18, 2006
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My Vintage PC collection:
http://www.jmusheneaux.com/WebSite/ScreenSnapz3.jpg
http://www.jmusheneaux.com/Manuscript2/JUNK.jpg
http://www.jmusheneaux.com/VERSE-OPINION/_39937987_computer300.jpg
http://www.jmusheneaux.com/WebSite/ScreenSnapz4.jpg
Analysts estimate that 133,000 PC's are retired every day in the US.
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Old and new
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by WB4M on October 18, 2006
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I have an old (500mhz) HP that I run logging and TNC programs on. It has Windows 98 on it.
I also have a newer one, about 3 years old that runs. 2.6ghz. with Windows XP on it.
Both have their place and use. There are some ham programs that just won't work well, if at all, on the old 500mhz machine.
But I did trash my old 286, 386, and 486 machines a long time ago. Sorry, make that re-cycled. The landfill has a special area for computers and related objects for re-cycling.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KG4RUL on October 18, 2006
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Old PC
New PC
Know Code
No Code
Both topics with highly polarized opinions!
Are we seeing a pattern in posts here?
Dennis KG4RUL
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W4LGH on October 18, 2006
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I am NOT going to get into this one. W1YW "NATHAN L COHEN aka Chester the Thread Molester" has already infiltrated this one.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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"Once again I would love to shed a few pounds Chip, problem with diabetes from Agent Orange, Sleep Apnea, and unable to barley walk let alone excersize ( just missing a couple of disk in my spine , minor stuff) I would love to find a way to burn off some of the weight, but on the other hand I am alive and that makes me very happy..
so I appreciate the concerne, but it ain't gonna hapen soon. Thank goodness I have friends who help me build the station and put up antennas for me. I can't say enough about the folks who help.
Remember, I'm FAT and your UGLY, but I can loose weight...:) "
-----------------------
If you read my comments with some care you will realize that the response to your insults was, and is, compliment and encouragement.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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"w1yw:
"Say...for all of you CHEAP MISERS out there..."
"Daily Brewsky: $ 1.80"
Dude... you drink $1.80 beer? talk about the pot callin the kettle...
73 m. "
--------------------------
Ya caught me. I drink a six pack of beer--every two years!
On the rare occassions I have beers (or accept them) other people offer them to me.
So my sense of beer pricing may be...naive.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K1CJS on October 19, 2006
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If there is one thing worse than Chip being sarcastic and obnoxious, it's Chip trying to be nice. He doesn't pull that off too well...... :-)
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K8MHZ on October 19, 2006
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"But if you can't afford to BE an (on the air) ham you SHOULDN'T be a ham."
Please Chip, don't insult my friends and family.
Case 1) My kid, Nicole K0LEY. She goes to school full time and we won't let her have a job yet. (She's 13). She also gets no allowance per se. She has to rely on other hams in the area for her equipment. It is not a problem and she gets on the air whenever she wishes.
Case 2) My friend Jean KC8WSE. She has no job either. It is very hard for her to find work (She's blind). She also has to rely on her ham friends. We have managed to get her an HF rig for free, we erected a 48 ft tower for her and grounded it properly. We managed to get antennas for free or for cheap and got them up in the air for her. We found equipment that was either free or affordable on her SSI checks. She is a fantastic operator and a good friend of many.
I usually see your point Chip, but your statement concerning those with limited means was brash, heartless and just plain wrong.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by AB9LZ on October 19, 2006
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K1CJS:
"If there is one thing worse than Chip being sarcastic and obnoxious, it's Chip trying to be nice. He doesn't pull that off too well...... :-)"
I wonder if it isn't some sort of meglamania, perhaps someone could do a study to see of you can gage the affliction by the amount of blog space consumed per thread ; ) 'cept for Mac of course, his Blog Haiku's are a works of art.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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"I usually see your point Chip, but your statement concerning those with limited means was brash, heartless and just plain wrong."
-----------------------------------------
I am sorry that your are offended by the obvious.
Let me say it again: like all things in life, the truth bears repeating--
"If you can't afford to be an (on the air) ham then you should not be a ham".
Yes.
I strongly feel that way.
Yes.
It is true.
Do what you can afford, don't do what you can't.
Lend your sister a rig and give your daughter air time. Be a mensch.
I am very tired of seeing this OBSESSION with pleading poverty. You never see this elsewhere--such as on musician's web sites, where many people REALLY are poor.
Don't DO what you can't AFFORD.
No apologies.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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K1CJS:
"If there is one thing worse than Chip being sarcastic and obnoxious, it's Chip trying to be nice. He doesn't pull that off too well...... :-)"
I wonder if it isn't some sort of meglamania, perhaps someone could do a study to see of you can gage the affliction by the amount of blog space consumed per thread ; ) 'cept for Mac of course, his Blog Haiku's are a works of art.
-----------------------------------
Please provide a citation for this quote. It is not here on this thread.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KZ7B on October 19, 2006
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I don't see why this has to be controversial. If it works for you, keep it. End of story. I miss DOS myself.
HOWEVER, don't think you're doing anybody any favors by being charitable. If you insist on being charitable, don't be surprised if your donation is refused.
I was the IT guy for a public library for 25 years, one of the first "systems librarians" in the country. I bought the library's first Apple ][ for $5000 in 1980. When I left we had 35 rack-mount servers and 250 PCs deployed over T-1 lines and fiber optic to the Internet, plus over 100 old Win95 PCs stacked behind my desk, literally teetering. Every employee had a Win 2000 or XP computer on his or her desk. This is typical for libraries because they have so many PCs for public use. We typically upgrade every three years as the warranty expires, then surplus the old ones. Given security issues believe me, this is cost effective. We got steep discounts and stuff like MS Office cost us $50 per seat as a non-profit. (Gates likes libraries; his mother was a librarian.)
Nearly every month I would have someone earnestly contact me wondering if I wanted their prized possession, a 286 with a 10 megabyte hard drive with an Epson MX-80 dot matrix printer, complete with DOS 6.0. I could tell, even though I really tried hard to be as polite as can be, that these guys were sorely disappointed or even peeved that I would not take their old box.
I'm really, really sorry, but the charities you want to donate old equipment to live in the 21st century, too.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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"If there is one thing worse than Chip being sarcastic and obnoxious, it's Chip trying to be nice. He doesn't pull that off too well...... :-) "
------------------------------------------
Then show how the insincerity is manifest, and show what a proper re-wording would be to convey that true sentiment.
I don't care what YOU think about my being nice to someone else OM.
Some of you guys seem to have a very small list of cubby holes that you want people to fit into.
My basic sense is that what's driving all this is a sense of anti-intellectualism; a sense of resentment against those who work hard at improvement and don't dig those who set good examples; and finally a sense of entitlement that drives a jealousy for what they may want but don't have.
The costs of ham radio are incredibly low. If you can afford to do it, then welcome aboard! If you can't then wait or find some other way. Or try something else.
Do your best. Be your best. Ask for help. Ask for advice.
Watch what good things happen.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by MRCOFFEE on October 19, 2006
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Wow.... W1YW your just plain amazing.
We should all thank god that we have the benefit of your wonderful thoughtful insights on every subject.
I am most impressed at the fact that you "sucked it up" and became the enlighted person that you are today.
So far you've managed to insult a lot of people, and the author of the article, without providing one fact or technical reason to dispute what he wrote. Every post from you is nonsense, yet you keep going like you have a valid point. You have not been able to state how his ideas are not valid, nor in any case how the uses other put their older systems to use where not worthwhile.
I love your line "If you can't afford to be (an on air) ham, then you should not be a ham". That has to be the dumbest thing a person could say when refuting an article on recycling old hardware. You just stated a prefect example of how to reuse a working but outdated system... give it to a newbie!
So does Chip represent the new generation of Hams? If you cant afford the best hardware, the best radios, you have no place in Amateur Radio?
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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If you can't afford to be an (on the air) ham, then don't be one.
Yes. That's what I said.
Don't get a ham license if you can't afford to be on the air. It serves no purpose.
If you can't buy the modest set , or borrow , or use a club station, then you just can't afford it.
And ham radio doesn't need hams that don't get on the air because they cannot afford it.
Why?
Because it shows that they do not have a committment to the Part 97 service.
Don't like that? Too bad.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N7UQA on October 19, 2006
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Older computer don't even have to run Winblows to be useful. They'll run a hell of a lot better with Linux. Actually, just about ANY computer will run better with Linux. I've seen a lot of ham software for Linux on the net. That would be worth looking into as well.
Chip, a computer isn't crap just because it can't run Windows 2000 or XP. The router for my home network is a Pentium 166MHz machine running Linux. It's a hell of a lot better than any router I could buy. Hell, I even block all known malware and adware sites from being accessed by any machine on my network by adding them to the /etc/hosts file. I don't see most banner ads, and I don't even have to scan my machines for garbage any more, although I do anyways occassionally. I don't ever find anything anymore. I couldn't do that with some crappy D-Link or LinkSys router. They restrict the number of entries to less than 20.
Chris
N9XCR
Now Chip, here is something from a guy who knows what the hell he's talking about. I am very much like this guy. The last OS I bought from Microsoft was Windows 2000, it was the LAST good OS from Microsoft. I almost exclusively run SuSE linux on my IBM A31p thinkpad, I run Solaris on my Sun boxes. I have built, ran and configured many Solaris and linux boxes. Despite what Microsoft says, you DO NOT need a multi GHz+ dual core machine to surf the web. There is a time and place for blazingly fast hardware, surfing the web and running ham radio applications isn't one of them.
Hell, once I put together an old 233MMX box with 64MB of RAM, SCSI 9gig hard disk and installed DR-DOS 7.1. I was able to surf the net with Arachane (graphical web browser, e-mail client, GUI) for DOS. Yeah, it was a little slow, but it was set up as a demonstration to show you didn't need Windows to surf the web. And as Chris pointed out, I also put together a 233 MHz PII as a firewall/router. It greatly out performed anything D-Link or Linksys ever made.
Craig - N7UQA
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K4JJL on October 19, 2006
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I have 2 problems with using old computers:
reliability
efficiency
First is reliability. Just like cars or anything else that's old. When computers age, you run the risk of things like fans dying, HDs dying, power supplies dying, etc. etc. etc. I had a laptop that the HD went south on (multiple times). After spending weeks trying to recover data, I gave up on old laptops. It's just not worth the time. Also, don't forget, new hardware won't work in old machines. Got ISA buses? Well, they don't make devices for those any more. Got a 5GB HD? Well, the new 80GB drives they sell for $50 now won't work in there either. The BIOS won't recognize it. Don't forget, some old CDROMs won't read burned CDs. I've been burned by that nice feature.
Second is efficiency. This covers 2 areas, time and power. First off, I know a lot of people (hams and non-hams) who try to run a small IT department in their basement. They snatch up lots of old machines because they want to make "linux boxes". Once they get them, they install linux (which they usually don't have the slightest clue how to use) and leave them on for years, doing nothing.
The average PC consumes roughly 300 watts at full load (which I don't think varies much). I made up a small excel spreadsheet that lets you input various power comsumption levels, and leaving a 300 watt computer on for a year costs roughly $300. Now, running a print server (which can be accomplished by a small device running an embedded OS), a firewall (also can be replaced w/ a small device), a file server (or servers w/ multiple HDs, consuming far more than 300 watts), you could easily be wasting a grand or more a year in inefficiently heating your basement. I know that was a little off topic, but I wanted to get flamed by people who run tons of computers simultaneously :)
The reason I mentioned the power efficiency was that you can eliminate the firewall and print server w/ small devices that run on low wattage wall-warts. The file server is totally unnecessary. They make giant hard drives now. Get one.
Next is the time efficiency. I've tried browsing the internet on an old computer. The only way it works decently is if you use the lynx browser (text only). I've run digipan on an old computer. It takes forever to start, and heaven forbid your computer crashes.
Also, don't forget about hardware drivers. Say you get an old computer that's had the HD wiped. You install an old OS on it. Good luck finding the drivers for it. Old versions of windows aren't driver-filled like new versions, which means you are going on a wild goose chase. Plug-and-Play? More like Plug-and-Pray that the company is still in business and doesn't clean out their website of old content. I've had to pull boards, chips, covers, heatsinks, etc. out of computers to find out the manufacturer/model# to try to find drivers. Not what I call a fun time.
The only reason I can see keeping an old computer is to program Motorola radios. Using a computer faster than a 486DX-100MHz will brick one in a heartbeat. Motorola based their software on clock cycles, not time, for sending data to the radio.
Let the flaming begin...
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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No flame needed.
Old computers should only be kept to run legacy programs. Otherwise they should be recycled thoughtfully so their heavy metals can be recovered by the junkman.
Decent used computers are extremely cheap; run W2000; and have WiFi. The world at your fingertips for well under $200--as a laptop!
So quit your bitchin and throw out the junk.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N1XBP on October 19, 2006
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As much as I hate to contribute to the noise, I just wanted to inform you that I, and probably others resent the fact that you've hijacked the thread for your obnoxious trolling. I would have liked to read the discussion without all this BS, but oh well. And if you claim it's "satire", you may want to study up on what that means. Also, you should be aware that it rarely, if ever works via message boards. More often you look like a pompous twit whose gone off their meds, and everyone eventually avoids you.
It's not cute, clever, funny, or very intelligent.
I'm still amazed that my fellow hams still haven't figured out when to spot this happening and not respond. Just like the unid's that pop up on a repeater, or someone keying over you on HF, if you give them attention they don't stop.
And, that's what I've done, so I'll shut up now.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N7UQA on October 19, 2006
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K4JJL...
You certainly bring up some good points, however I will share some first hand hardware reliability issues.
Back when the 1GHz PIII came out I built two dual 1GHz PIII machines using the then new Abit VP6 motherboard. Out of those two boards one failed 1 year later. I also had a Tyan tiger dual slot 1 board that failed 3 months after purchase. I've had several hard drives fail, I have even seen new SATA 400GB disks fail hours after being installed.
Now to my IBM A31p (SuSE 10.0), I have now had this machine for 3+ years and have not had one problem with it. My Sun boxes (Solaris 9 and 7), a Sun Ultra 2 nearly eight years old and a Sun Ultra 1 also nearly eight years old. Not one problem, even the 9 gig SCA hard drives that I have now replaced with 10,000RPM 36.6 gig drives work just fine. It's the difference between 'consumer grade' and 'server grade' hardware.
Now power consumption can be an issue, but it's a trade off when the performance of a consumer grade router does not give you the performance you desire. When ever possible, I will use low power stand alone devices (like a TNC and Linksys switches/routers). I replaced the Linksys router with a linux box because when I connected to another machine via resolvable host names, the transfer speed was about 1.5 M/bits. When done with IP addresses, the transfer speed shot up to a full 100 M/bits.
Drivers, my experience has not been much of a problem if you use linux, however a MAJOR problem when using Windows.
73
Craig - N7UQA
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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"And, that's what I've done, so I'll shut up now."
-------------------------------
As your comments are not even remotely tied into the topic, this makes perfect sense.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by EXWA2SWA on October 19, 2006
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Anybody wanna buy my 4 MHz, 10Meg hard drive, 512K RAM DOS computer? Comes with Lotus 1-2-3, FoxPro (DOS version) and a PFS word processer. Gave a kilo-buck for it quite a few years ago, to replace twin Commodore 64's with both tape and disk drives ... how about my BASIC programming guide? Couple of joy-sticks? B/W monitor? I'm tellin' ya, I got some good stuff gathering dust in the garage ...
Some day maybe I'll hook it up and quit using paper logs.
Hey, who sez I'm anachronistic? - I bought paddles didn't I?
Jim KE5CXX
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by MRCOFFEE on October 19, 2006
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Read what the author wrote. The orginal point of discussion. He's point was that IF an older PC fits the job in your shack, then why buy some more then you need.
He isnt talking to those who HAVE 15 computers around the house.
Funny, if I followed W1YW's advice... my mom would never have gotten online to email her grand kids. Because once I outgrew the computer I had, I would have tossed it instead of handing it down to someone that could (and still does everyday) use it.
I have to agree with K4JJL's point. With the one small exception that when a person reuses an old PC to build a firewall, a router, a print server, the learning and experience can't be replaced with a low power device. :) Long run it is no way near as cost effective to recycle a PC into these jobs, but learning how to do it has a value.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K1CJS on October 19, 2006
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W1YW said:
"......So quit your bitchin and throw out the junk."
Chip,
The garbage truck just pulled up. Care to take all your nonsense with you and jump in? Or shall we all throw you in? ;-)
73 to all!
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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Periodically my wife and I have 1-800-got-junk come by and pick up the bigger items.
We gave away a sofa last week to a Harvard student and chucked a second one into the bin. The new furniture is fabulous--it's like being at a vacation resort and not leaving town! I also got rid of a TA33 and some other antenna crud; some crud from early antenna testing days; and some ham stuff that wasn't worth money on e-bay.
I decided to move the operating position into the studio, given the IC-7000 has such a low profile. I haven't decided on an AMP; probably wait until things shake out at the second QTH.
Thanks for asking!
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K7AAT on October 19, 2006
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Just want to point out that the fast boot up and shut off times are NOT due to your old computer, but are because of the old, (and small), operating system you have - Windows 95. Unfortunately, Windows 95 is very old and does have compatibility issues with many modern ham programs.
I suggest to anyone, old computer or new, that if you want an adequate ham computer and very fast boot up times you look into a product called Windows 98 Lite. You can learn more at: http://www.litepc.com/
Ed K7AAT
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K8MHZ on October 19, 2006
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"If you can't afford to be an (on the air) ham then you should not be a ham".
I suddenly realized that the above depends on one's situation in life. If a person has good friends with licenses they can indeed be a ham and not afford it. Their friends will pick up the tab. Jean KC8WSE is my friend, not my sister.
On the other hand, if a person has no one that has any desire to help them due to, say a mean spirited condescending attitude, then what you say is true. It is just a waste of a license.
Fortunately for Jean she is one of the nicest folks you have ever met and is now very active on the radio. She would be missed greatly if she were gone. She has no problem getting hams to help her with her station.
Our club has a modest 25 dollar per year fee and you get a free year if you are a new ham. The club has very nice station and encourages it's use.
My young'n has the advantage of being able to use anything I have when she wants to. Plenty of radios to go around.
It seems from my point of view you are wrong. I personally know people that can't afford the hobby that are very active in it and the local ham community would have it no other way.
From your point of view you may be right.
(Darn! Now I hear Billy Joel singing a stupid song in my head.)
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by WI0T on October 19, 2006
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"Old computers should only be kept to run legacy
programs"
Let me explicity state what I think the implicit
intent is:
"Old computers should only be kept to run legacy
programs that cannot run on newer systems."
I have some older programs, they run fine in a command
window under Windows XP Media center.
As another poster pointed out, reliability and
efficiency are two good reasons to get rid of the old
stuff.
73,
Rod
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KF4PEP on October 19, 2006
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I will ditch my old computers when someone shows me how to reliably run the software I sue to program my commercial radios on anything that has windows or runs fater than a slow P1.
In fact I am looking hard for a 386 laptop, because anything faster than a 386 will not work to program a Syntor X9000 reliably.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W3WN on October 19, 2006
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Scott,
Good article.
As far as a few of the comments are concerned, maybe it's time to remind a few...
Why do you have a computer in the shack?
The primary purpose has been to automate certain tasks to permit us to concentrate on communicating. And by that I mean tasks like logging, generating QSL cards, tracking QSL cards for awards purposes, and so on.
A secondary purpose has been to use them as part of the actual communications process -- be it a digital RTTY or PSK-31 or related program, CW translation, and so forth.
In either case... the next question is, what type of computer do you need in the shack to accomplish these tasks?
That's the point that our esteemed ex-professor and a few others seems to be missing. You do NOT need the latest & greatest to accomplish these tasks. Heck, for many of them, you can still find MS-DOS programs available (usually without support) to accomplish these goals.
It is silly spend mega-bucks that could be better dedicated to other purposes -- like the antennas or a better rig or even a few non-ham radio related parts of life -- to upgrade to the latest & greatest computer for the shack, when an older machine will do just fine.
Is there a risk? Sure. Older machines are often more prone to parts failures because they've often been well used. Replacement parts are becoming scarcer. Older software and older OS's lack support, or minimal support, or free support.
But you're just not going to convince me that, for one example, if you want to use a simple spreadsheet for logging in the shack, that an old 80286 running Lotus 1-2-3 Release 2.x is better, than a modern dual-core 4 GHz CPU machine running Micro$oft Excel 2003.
This is not to say modern machines and software don't have their places -- they do. Certainly! But why use a jackhammer to crack open a walnut? It'll work, but what a waste of effort and resources.
Oh, as far as obtaining an older machine... you don't have to spend $$ on that, either. I don't like scavanging off the curb, often there is something wrong with those boxes. Check your local thrift store, second hand shop, and the like -- often perfectly fine machines are donated to charity and resold for a fraction of what they're worth. Ask some of the larger corporate offices around; they often stockpile old machines in their inventory that they don't know what to do with, or are awaiting a write-off, and then go en mass to the dumpster -- again, often available for little or no money. Check your smaller "mom and pop" computer stores, they sometimes have trade-ins or a machine left for repair that was never paid for or abandoned (of course, acquire the machine only after the store has made all reasonable attempts to get ahold of the owner, you don't want to be arrested for possesion of stolen merchandise...). Sometimes that second "kid's" computer has been stashed in the basement or garage by a neighbor and forgotten, and they'll be glad to free up the room.
You'd be surprised at what you can get, just by asking!
73, ron w3wn
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KI6LO on October 19, 2006
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"Vintage PCs can work fine and be very economical, but can pose a real problem if ever connected to the internet."
To further clarify this statement, it should be stated that "vintage OSes like Win95" can pose the security problem. Vintage hardware is no more a security threat than newer hardware, possibly less since there is less chance of having features such as wireless networking, etc.
We use a couple of IBM Thinkpad 600 laptops with Win2K Pro and all the service packs and updates. The old laptops, while not fast, do exactly what we need them to do and at a very reasonable price - appx $300 for both of them and memory upgrades to boot.
So to those of you who seem to think that it has to be the latest generation of PCs or it's wrong, I only can say 'to each his own'. Opinions are like "behinds", everyone has one and lot of them don't smell so good!!
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KI6LO on October 19, 2006
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W1YW said "...3 Cups of Java : $8.50"
--------
If you pay $8.50 for 3 cups of coffee, I might suggest you change brands or stores. And from the sound of your replies, you might want to lay off totally as you seem to get a bit too excited about the simpliest of things. PhD or not, successful or not, not everyone marches to your drum!
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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So...
I don't understand. Where is it exactly I flaunted my Ph.D. here? Do you want me to flaunt my Ph.D. here? Am I supposed to feel BAD that I have one? What is the context here? Please quote.
Speaking of drums, why should we beat yours OM?
RE: Coffe--Go into Starbucks. Then do the math.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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"We use a couple of IBM Thinkpad 600 laptops with Win2K Pro and all the service packs and updates. The old laptops, while not fast, do exactly what we need them to do and at a very reasonable price - appx $300 for both of them and memory upgrades to boot"
-------------------------
Yes; that's great. In fact, it was essentially what I recommended (see earlier posts). Buy these cheap--great idea.
He was talking about a Win95 machine with no internet capability.....and extolling the virtues of that. I told him to chuck it for trash recycling.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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That's the point that our esteemed ex-professor and a few others seems to be missing. You do NOT need the latest & greatest to accomplish these tasks. Heck, for many of them, you can still find MS-DOS programs available (usually without support) to accomplish these goals
-----------------------
Your esteemed 'colleague' assumes that you will read what has been written, and not say exactly the opposite of what was said.
I said to go to E-Bay, pay $167 and get a WIN2000 laptop with WiFi capability. Said computers are 3-5 years old. NOT the latest and greatest.
I said TRASH AND RECYCLE the WIN95 NIA machine....
This pretzel convolution...is it a ham thing? I've never encountered it anywhere else. And I hang with people in all manner of situations; economic status; and so on.
Get it...
Got it?
Good:-)
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by G8KHS on October 19, 2006
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Chip, N1YW, I guess the guy looked you up on qrz.com.
Back to the topic, it doesn't matter what you use as long as you get the results you want. If you have an old TRS80 and it still is useful, great! This it what makes electronics and radio interesting, the mix of old and new.
73 to all,
John G8KHS
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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"Chip,
The garbage truck just pulled up..."--K1CJS
--------------------------------------------
OM!
PLEASE don't pick over the GARBAGE truck! They aren't supposed to make deliveries..
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K1CJS on October 19, 2006
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Hey, Chip--Why didn't you quote the whole statement? I'll repeat: The truck just pulled up, CARE TO TAKE ALL YOUR NONSENSE AND JUMP IN?.......
Better yet, we invite you to jump in. Delivery to the landfill is free--even for you.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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Are you suggesting I be murdered and buried in a landfill? Please clarify your meaning. This is what it sounds like to me.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KI4PEQ on October 19, 2006
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I just love the "better, faster, newer" mentality when it comes to computers. I am a Mac guy at heart, but there are some programs that do not have a Mac equivalent. For running my weather station feed to the internet, control of my rig, and a few other mundane tasks, I found I needed a Windows box.
About the same time, the local school board was having a sale on surplus computers. Every two years, the school system changes out their computer equipment. I went to the sale at the school warehouse, picked up a Pentium tower, monitor, two keyboards, and a external drive. Digging through my junk drawer found two PC100 memory modules that fit into the empty memory slots.
Total cost, not counting the Windows OS (which I already had a multiple seat license for) $32. And I was able to retain a good portion of the software that was still contained on the hard drive. It works, it was cheap, and I will be filling up the shack with more of these "obsolete" processors when the next sale comes around.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K4JJL on October 19, 2006
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I have seen people program an X9000 with a Superpro EEPROM programmer. It's not pretty, but it works if you don't have anything else.
Does the Syntor have a service menu like the Spectra? If so, that would most likely be a disaster w/ an new computer.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KI4PEQ on October 19, 2006
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Chip,
I'll reserve judgement as to the perception some have of you being an "arrogant ass". but some of your statements are a bit over the top.
Don't have the money, get out of amateur radio? I'm retired on a fixed income. Most of the equipment in my shack, from the radios to the towers in the back yard, are second hand. I would really be in trouble if I had the vices of coffee drinking, cigarette smoking and beer swilling. I have none of them. But I scour the ads, let fellow hams know that I can use a bargain if they are cleaning our their shacks, and I squeeze a nickel until the buffalo grunts. I have to, I'm on a fixed income. So I don't have a computer with the newest, fastest processor. I don't need one. Most of the heavy lifting computer wise in my house is done with the four Macintosh machines I have, none of them younger than four years old. I have another four Windows machines on my home network, one custom built six months ago. ALL of them are used for one thing or another. I'm not a skinflint, but I am thrifty. I get more use out of the Macs because their software life cycle is much longer than Microsoft's offerings. I make sure my machines are running at peak efficiency and are virus free.
I'm glad you have unlimited funds and can keep Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer rolling in dough. Not all of us are as fortunate.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K4JJL on October 19, 2006
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Chip,
You can run legacy software inside VMs on modern machines. We do it all the time at work. Not fun to set up, but at least you don't have to sweat bullets and cross your fingers hoping the old crusty machine doesn't croak in the process.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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K4JJL--
Thanks for advise!
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N0IU on October 19, 2006
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Any article that starts off with the premise of what I should do without knowing my operating requirements, environment, financial situation, etc. rubs me the wrong way.
The only thing you should do is buy, build, beg, borrow or requisition a computer that best suits your needs and budget and be happy with it.
After buying a new computer, I gave up my DOS programs, outboard audio filters and outboard multimode controller and there is no looking back.
Scott N0IU
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by AE6RO on October 19, 2006
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Making radios out of junque is a time-honored ham tradition. You might say Part 97 is the written law and junkbox hoarding part of the oral law. Heh, heh.
I think the best ham radios were built before 1975. Maybe 1980 but that's pushing it. It's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Lots of people enjoy archery even though it's technically out of date.
73, AE6RO
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N8UZE on October 19, 2006
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If you have the will and initiative, you can enjoy any hobby on a near zero budget. "Not being able to afford it" is generally a cop out of some type so they don't have to say that "at the moment my interest is low".
Notice that Chuck did not put a dollar amount in his posts. He does not preclude the use of low cost or even free gear. He does not preclude the use of club stations or friends stations.
However, there is a "cost" of effort to find the cheap/free gear (generally requires developing friendships or finding elmers) or join a club or find and maitain friendships. If one can't afford those "costs", then perhaps Chuck has a point.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by K1CJS on October 19, 2006
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By no means! However, if you were to 'take a ride' we wouldn't have to listen to your trash!
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 19, 2006
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I'm glad you have unlimited funds and can keep Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer rolling in dough. Not all of us are as fortunate.
--------------
Great vent, but I'm sorry to tell you that the point of view you despise was not espoused by me; nor do I in any way denigrate it.
In fact, I PRICED out a really cool and useful USED ham set up HF rig, antenna, mike and --WITH LAPTOP (Windows 2000, Wifi, other goodies)-- for $370. Wow! That's pretty cheap!
I hardly ever buy newest and bestest (heheh!). I buy useful and value-holding. And I get my beers for free, because I hardly ever accept them!
What I said was THROW JUNK AWAY!
OK OM?
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KI4PEQ on October 20, 2006
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We do agree that one should hold on to really useful things, and get rid of the junk.
The XYL finally got me motivated enough for a thorough house and garage cleaning recently. I found out that I was NOT the champion hoarder, it was my teenage daughter!
Would I use an old 8088 for anything, nope, the technology is too old.
But I don't mind being a year or two behind the power curve technology wise. I gave up being on the bleeding edge when I ceased working full time.
73,
Richard
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 20, 2006
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Hi Richard,
Being a student for many years and then a professor teaches one value versus waste. But you hit the nail on the head: it's XYL's that teach one the definition of junk:-)
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by VE3VVF on October 20, 2006
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Scott (N0IU),
Actually, the article did not try and tell anyone what to do. I said that there are some who require newer computers because the programs they run to control their rigs and so on require it and that's fine. My point was that there is no point in upgrading just for the sake of having something bigger, better and faster. If what you have suits your needs, great but some of us can get by just fine with less.
Thanks for the remarks all.
Scott
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KX8N on October 20, 2006
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"Actually, the article did not try and tell anyone what to do."
99% of us got your point and agree with you.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 20, 2006
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Well Scott, some of us aren't living in a decade+ old bell jar.
If a WIN95 machine suits your needs, that is a deviancy from the norm in this 21st century and hardly deserves any discussion on a ham website, IMO.
Assuming you are plugged in enough to READ what others--including myself--said, you would realize that your specific example is not tenable--old machines that work great in TODAY'S world are incredibly inexpensive (I found one for $167; someone else paid $150 ($300 for two)). Thus while we all agree with the GENERAL sentiment, you took it to an extreme that indicates more of a predilection for junk rather than a virtue of thrift. IMO.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W2NSF on October 20, 2006
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MACINTOSH
I have an eight-year-old Macintosh G3 Blue & White "Yosemite."
Most folks would consider this an old machine.
I consider it right up to date.
Why?
Over the years, I've constantly kept it updated.
The current configuration includes two 120GB hard drives, 1 GB RAM, a DVD burner, a CD burner, multiple highspeed USB 2 and "fire wire" ports, a 19 inch SONY trinitron monitor, ergonomic keyboard, optical mouse, and finally, I'm running Macintosh OS X, Apple's premier operating system.
This "legacy" machine will hopefully (touch wood) be running strong and remain up-to-date for the foreseeable future.
It does everything I need it to do and it does it very well.
Who needs a new computer?
P.S. I am so happy MacLoggerDX is available to the Macintosh ham radio community. It's surely the best ham radio software package, regardless of platform.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by DHARMA on October 20, 2006
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"A most fitting photo wouldn't you say?
W1YW - Keeping America A Cleaner Place... "
----------------------
http://serv2.imagehigh.com/imgss/4196708_w1yw.jpg.jpg
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KX8N on October 20, 2006
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"If a WIN95 machine suits your needs, that is a deviancy from the norm in this 21st century... "
Ironic statement on a site where there are people still using radios that are over 40 years old.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W7ETA on October 20, 2006
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While I understand what the author's view is, very nice prose, I would like to offer that people buy new computers for a variety of reasons; one of which can simply be to build a new "toy".
Using an old LapTop as a keyboard to send CW, or for digital programs makes sense to me.
73
Bob
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KC0YPV on October 20, 2006
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Yeah so all you guys using 40 year old rigs, "THROW THAT JUNK OUT!!!" or better yet, send it to my house ;)
After all, I dont have a radio yet (cause I can't afford one quite yet, thus I don't deserve to be a ham, right Chip?) But I'm ordering my first 40m qrp kit this weekend, so...
73
KC0YPV
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 20, 2006
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"If a WIN95 machine suits your needs, that is a deviancy from the norm in this 21st century... "
Ironic statement on a site where there are people still using radios that are over 40 years old. "
--------------------------------
Your analogy is wrong. Defending a WIN95 machine w/o internet access is akin to defending SPARK --not boat anchors.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 20, 2006
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Well, almost.
I didn't say DESERVE. I said AFFORD.
If you can't buy a cheap used rig, or manage to be honest and earnest enough to borrow one, or operate elsewhere-- then yes; please give up ham radio.
Basically you are incapable of executing the mission of Part 97.
You can't afford ham radio in that set of circumstances.
Hope this helps.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KX8N on October 20, 2006
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"Your analogy is wrong. Defending a WIN95 machine w/o internet access is akin to defending SPARK --not boat anchors. "
I really don't think it's wrong. If something suits your needs, there's no need to get rid of it. If you don't use the internet, and Win95 is running smoothly, and you're doing the same thing one the machine you did back in '95, I don't see any problem. If it's not broken, don't fix it (OR junk it).
Now I'll agree, if you're trying to author DVDs on a Win95 machine, you need to buck up and get a new computer. But if someone has an old laptop running packet or a BBS, why throw it away? I agree with getting rid of something that doesn't work or doesn't suit your needs, but I think it's very wasteful to junk something ONLY for the sake of getting something new.
I've got a 3.0 GHz Pentium 4 sitting here with 1.5 Gigs of RAM. I bought it three years ago. Technically, it's outdated. But I wouldn't even consider getting rid of it for something new. Why? Because it would just be a waste of money.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 21, 2006
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There has been NOTHING in my comments from which you can springboard this vent.
I will merely say it has nothing to do with what I said.
Stop trying to misrepresent what someone else said. It's in bad taste OM.
I don't disagree with you.
But a WIN95 system with NIA is trash.
Period.
73,
Chip W1YW
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W7ETA on October 21, 2006
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All of this talk.
Lets see.
My P2 mobo still has the CPU and mem on it; PS is around some where; dual 2 gig drives still hanging around. Think I've got an Ethernet card for it, and an old STB graphics card for it.
Sounds perfect for logging.
Been looking for an AGP card to use with an overclocked mobile XP2600, socket A system, and HDTV tuner capture box. Think I'll wait for prices to come down on 7800 before I start playing around with recording OTA HDTV (on an old system).
73
Bo
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KX8N on October 21, 2006
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"But a WIN95 system with NIA is trash. "
I didn't rant, I proved my point, and you seem to have a problem with anyone who can do that. You need to learn that just because something is your opinion does not make it fact. Just because YOU have no use for something does not make it trash. Period. Live with it. You lose this one.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 21, 2006
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If you think hoarding trash is a 'win' just keep in mind that one hopes this is a minority view of Part 97 licensees. Given the commonness of elder hams, I fear it is overly the norm --and should be publicly addressed when it comes up. What's amazing is how OFTEN it seems to come up.
Throw the crud out. Send it back to God.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N1TI on October 21, 2006
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New computers are getting so cheap these days and power management is getting much better. I did the PC-based router gig for years, constantly making my power company richer...sucking 75-100 watts just to push bits around. Anything under a P3 I tossed or gave away. It just makes no sense to not to recycle and move on to more efficient means. The slowest machine I have is a P3 I use for a remote internet base and a VNC gateway into my other machines at home. I also have the ability to power on any machine from the road to keep things "green" and lower the power bill. The last thing I want to do is to wait minutes for the machine to boot and load the remoteware I need to access other machines. The small solid-state routers (Linksys WRT54) is a great full time router with all of the Linux alternatives to run on it.
If I hear from some of the justifications out there, I'd be willing to bet that there are still some junk C64's, TI-99's and maybe an old Xerox820 or two still out there.
Maybe I can devote one of my retiring P4's to control my S38C :-)
73,
Tim - N1TI
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KB3MSU on October 21, 2006
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You need to think about some things.....
I build "old pieces of junk" that run Windows 95 and give them to school students whose family either cannot afford a computer, or simply just don't care. A local internet provider gives them free dial-up access, and another company gives them a dictonary and encyclopedia CD to use on these computers. Now these kids can access the net from home, do home work on their "pieces of junk", and otherwise are over-joyed by having a computer. Companies and individuals donate their old PC's to me, along with monitors and printers. To someone who doesn't have, it is NOT junk.
School teachers and PTA's send me names of students who could benefit from these "pieces of junk".
Think next time before opening your mouth. These older CPU's may not have all the speed and trappings of modern machines. But to a kid who would never otherwise have a computer, it brings smiles and joy. Give one of these "pieces of junk" to a kid configured like I do and enjoy it when he's all smiles. It might make you see things differently.
BTW, my computer is a dual CPU (AMD64X2 5000+ ---yes, 4 PROCESSORS), with 8 GIGS RAM and 4 SATA 400 Gig Hard Drives. So, this makes your junk... do you want to donate it to the cause???? 8)
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KK0DJ on October 22, 2006
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I read some of the responses to this with great amusement. Though there are very good reasons to follow the state of the art, it may not be necessary for the Amateur Radio Op. I have been in the computer industry for nearly 30 years. I have a range of machines here at home. The most powerful of them are about a year behind the bleeding edge. However, I have many older 400-800Mhz machines that run a Linux distribution called "Ubuntu." (www.ubuntu.com) This Linux distribution is very 'Windows" like and is extremely ham-friendly. There are a lot of programs that are available for hams that run on Linux. THink of it.. it's a free operating system with free updates. If anyone would like to try one of these machines, I'll offer the four that I have spare for $50 a box. These are set up, ready to run computers. No monitor, keyboard or mouse, just the main computer. You pay shipping and there ya go. So, see for yourself if older technology works for the Ham Operator... by the way, this was entered on one of those old machines!
73
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W1YW on October 22, 2006
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Anyone who thinks they are helping school children by giving schools WIN95 NIA machines--I challenge you to do the following:
Call WB2JKJ, that's one of the PS schools in NYC (they have advertised in QST for decades), and offer to give them your spankin' outmoded WIN95 NIA machine.
Watch their response.
BTW, I am sure they don't take trash as donations.
73,
Chip W1YW
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KA1MDA on October 22, 2006
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A few years ago, I picked up an old, obsolete DELL OPTIPLEX GX100 with the OEM Windows 98 OS still on it for $5.00! I think it's a 500 or 600 Mhz Pentium chip. Was looking for a junk computer to dedicate to ham shack. Added 2 PCI RS-232 cards to it for a cost of around $50.
Funny thing is, this ended up being one of the most stable computers I've ever used in the shack! I can leave it on all week long, running multiple apps, like Digipan or MMSSTV + UI-VIEW + N3FJP log + GPS time setting software and it NEVER crashes!!! Just keeps going and going... Even when running all those apps, I have yet to see any performance degredation. The case is very well shielded, too- no interference at all on any bands, HF-1.2 Ghz! Plus, it's quiet, as I think it only has 1 cooling fan!
It's got a total of 6 serial ports: Kenwood TS-2000X, Icom 706 CI-V, GPS, two PK-232MBX TNC's, and a home-made audio/PTT interface. Also hooked to my home network. Guess a lot of newer computer stuff can be overkill for ham radio apps! Of course, the down side is that once this thing dies, it's not worth fixing and will have to be scrapped. But in the past 2 years I've had it running, can't beat what it does for the $55 it cost me!
Tom, KA1MDA
www.ka1mda.org
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KC0YPV on October 22, 2006
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I wonder if the Chipster saw one of us driving down the road in a 15 year old car; would he roll down the window, sneer, and yell "Throw that junk away! Go get a NEW car!"
:-)
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KX8N on October 22, 2006
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It's obvious at this point that he's nothing more than a troll... he feeds off the comments and defensiveness.
Troll away... I'm not feeding 'ya anymore.
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N2EIK on October 23, 2006
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Yes....I miss my Vic20 and RTTY interface.
(not)
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by W4KYR on October 24, 2006
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I'm going to put my windows 3.1 in here ...er I mean my 2 cents. If a older computer works fine for contest logging or even....packet, why toss it out?
Sure the newer computers are better and faster and more reliable. If you were going on field day for example, would you take your new $1400 laptop or your older Win 95 laptop if you were going to just use it for logging purposes?
So if you dedicate a older computer for ham use and keep the newer ones for music and video. Sounds to me like a good choice, why tie up that new Windows XP computer for ham use ..when you don't really have to?
Here we are talking about trashing a perfectly usable computer because it might be 5 or 10 years old.
Yet some amongst us here would put up a helluva argument, if one suggested that they toss out their Collins or Heathkit gear in favor of a new IC-7000.... I mean after all, ... the Heathkit or Collins didn't have DSP or 500 memories so then it must be obsolete just like the Windows 95 and 98 machines are supposedly are ... do we trash our older radios too?
I always thought we hams hang onto stuff cause we like it and it still works. Perhaps computers are a different animal altogether? Trash older computers that still work, but hang onto 25 and 50 year radios instead?
Doesn't make sense....
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Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KA9NYN on October 25, 2006
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I'm just curious what utopian paradise Chip lives in, as I don't see PCs being 'broken up, separated and recycled' in my neck of the woods.
My .02
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RE: The Next Generation of VoIP!
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by KG4LSH on October 26, 2006
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OOOO!! What's next? Something fun like a little phone you can take with you anywhere and call anyone anywhere anytime and wear it on your side like a badge? Not quite real HF Sheriff.
Sincerely,
John KG4LSH
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KG4LSH on October 26, 2006
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Not sure it's a utopian paradise?? Seems to be the "Land of Make Believe".
Sincerely,
John
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N5YPJ on October 26, 2006
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Hmmm 1 st computer here was a Radio Shack Color Computer with the tape drive. No nostalgia for the older machines here, it it like taking a cross country trip in a horse drawn wagon, my machines upgraded or replaced as finances allow.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by VE3VVF on October 27, 2006
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Actually, a cross country horse-drawn wagon trek sounds like a lot of fun. You could operate HM (Horse Mobile)
Scott
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KB3KAQ on October 30, 2006
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i am a computer professional and have the latest and greatest in technology both at home and at the office. i also have several of Pentium II 500 MHz machines at my house running Linux as data storage servers, a firewall, and a print server.
i have a few classic computer games that will not run in Windows, so i have a computer for those. the infinite upgrade sprial is stupid. if it still is functional i'll use it. sure a 500 MHz based data server is slow, but i host a website on it and it has never had a problem.
i prefer to not be a consumer, rather a user. hell, my Commodore 64 still works - my son can grow up playing the games i did.
one man's junk is another man's treasure i guess. the trick is knowing how to use the treasure.
Steve, WM3O
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by KD8DNR on October 30, 2006
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I just don't understand what your deal is Chip? Your outrage is hilarious and yet it's a little scary. Is he the embodiment of what our hobby is coming to?
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by N9LYA on October 30, 2006
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That is why MAN is considered a Diesase of this planet.. Not a co-habitator..
Man...
1) Man will wage war on his own kind.
2) Man will kill for sport or lust.
3) Man will use up all the resourses of this once lush but now dying planet and give back what??? Waste and polution..
4) Breed at a level that mimics Cockroaches with no regards to the penalty..
5) Radiate his own planet by detonating Nukes and dirty Bombs.. By Careless handling of Nuclear power generating plants.. That still today put out a high level of radiation that reaches all parts of this planet.
6) Now that is a waste..
73 jerry
We do waste a lot... The new saying seems to go this way... If its not broke don't fix it, replace it... If its Broke buy a new one..
Hum... And we wonder why nothing else really matters..
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by NW9T on November 1, 2006
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W1YW Said, "But if you can't afford to BE an (on the air) ham you SHOULDN'T be a ham: everyone has things they'd like to buy that they can't afford. Frankly the cost is so low for ham radio compared to your ciggies or morning coffee that you have no excuse.
If you think being a ham is hoarding junk, then show me where this is a ham tradition, and defined in Part 97....
73,
Chip W1YW"
To say someone who can't afford to be an "On The Air" ham, SHOULDN'T be a ham is ridiculous. You want to keep pressing Part 97, you check it out and tell me where it says you have to own ANY ham equipment to get or maintain a license? It simply says you need a license to operate equipment capable of communicating on the frequencies alloted to Amateur Radio Communications. There's been times in my life where I haven't been able to afford to purchase Ham gear, but I did have friends who had gear and they allowed me to use it, which I couldn't have done without a license. I was able to keep enjoying the hobby, even though it was in a limited fashion.
There's been times where the only rig I could afford was a homebrewed QRP CW Transceiver, I still enjoyed the hobby, and if I wanted a computer to use for logging, then the best I could have hoped for was an older used, as you call it, "piece of junk" which would have fit my needs nicely.
I don't know where you come from, or your background and frankly I don't care. But I will tell you this, being a GOOD HAM goes far beyond your equipment or your actions "On The Air". YOU, as well all of us who are licensed, should always do our best to PROMOTE the hobby and welcome others into it, regardless of the equipment or amount of money they can afford to spend. As long as the equipment meets the requirements of the FCC Standards, it's acceptable.
The PRIMARY concern of all Hams should be OPERATING SKILLS, NOT equipment. Your comments alone, including a snide remark to a person who appears to be unlicensed, has probably done more damage to the hobby than anyone using an older piece of equipment ever would have.
Also in Part 97...
§97.1 Basis and purpose.
The rules and regulations in this Part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
(e) CONTINUATION AND EXTENSION OF THE AMATEUR'S UNIQUE ABILITY TO ENHANCE INTERNATIONAL GOODWILL.
That should be both on and OFF the air! So if anyone should consider getting out of the hobby, maybe it's time YOU took a good look in the mirror.
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RE: Is Your PC Vintage? Maybe it Should Be.
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by AE6RO on November 1, 2006
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The good news is cockroaches will inherit the earth when "man-unkind" has successfully exterminated himself.
73, AE6RO
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