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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Mobile Grounds

Alan Applegate (K0BG) on October 18, 2006
View comments about this article!

Mobile Grounds

I keep seeing the same misconceptions over and over on these pages about grounding mobile antenna mounts, and the chassis of the mobile transceiver in question. It is touted as an absolute cure to every mobile malady from high SWR to ignition noise reduction. It isn't! So lets compare the mobile set up with a fixed station one, in an effort to clear up this misconception.

It is easy to set up an transceiver, and feed it a nominal 12 volts DC from a battery. A chunk of coax run up to a resonant dipole, and we have near instant communications capabilities. Does this set up need to be DC grounded to work? Absolutely not! Would you have to ground the chassis of the radio to make it work? Absolutely not! Doing so might afford some level of lightening protection, but as far as communications goes, it is not necessary.

If we were to remove the side of the dipole that is connected to coax shield, and string the remaining wire straight up, we have a vertical antenna without a ground plane under it. It obviously wouldn't work too well as the coax cable itself would be the only return path the RF would have. This is not an ideal situation to say the least.

We could pound in a ground rod, connect the shield to it, and our vertical would work a little better perhaps, but what it really needs is a radial field. Not just a few radials, but a lot of them if we want a good level of efficiency and minimal problems with RFI. Neither the radial field nor the transceiver need be DC grounded to work efficiently.

When mobile, instead of a radial field we have the body of the vehicle, and what ever amount of capacitive reactance there is between it and the surface under it. The net result is, there is ground loss. Depending on the vehicle, the surface under it, how the antenna is mounted, and what frequency we're operating on; this loss is from 2 to about 20 ohms, but can be more. This induced ground loss reduces efficiency in a similar manner to our aforementioned vertical wire without a proper radial field. Thus, it is not uncommon to have efficiencies of less than 5% on the lower HF bands.

Improper mounting will cause additional losses. For example, mounting the antenna too close to the body. Although doing so is not really ground loss per sé (it is stray capacitance loss), the net result is the same; less efficiency. Since mobile antennas are already a big compromise, it behooves us to keep the losses we have control over as low as we can. One way to reduce the losses is by properly mounting our antennas, and adequately bonding the various bolted on pieces of the vehicle.

Lots of amateurs are unwilling to drill holes in their vehicles, and the reasons are quite varied (but this is not the subject at hand). These folks make do with trunk lip mounts, license plate mounts, and all manner of trailer hitch mounting schemes. All well and good. But somewhere along the line, the idea that grounding these types of mounts with a wide braid to a chassis hard point will magically make them as efficient as center-of-the-roof mounting. It won't!

In all fairness, the coax shield should be connected to the body of the vehicle, and close to the base of the antenna. A ground strap might improve this connection, but it won't do anything to improve the ground losses encountered! And it won't magically cure RFI egress from the various electronic devices in the vehicle! And it won't magically cure RFI ingress to those same electronic devices! If you installed a ground, and it solved a problem (RFI or other wise), then something else in your installation is (was) amiss.

It is best to think about a mobile antenna, and the vehicle it is mounted on, as a system. We already know we have an inadequate ground plane, and we do not have the option of running radials hither and yon. This leaves us with very few options. A better mounting location and/or method, better bonding, a higher Q inductor (to a point), increasing the length of the antenna (to a point), or perhaps a cap hat more or less sums them up. Anything less is exactly that, less!

By the way, efficiency has no relation to how many DX stations you've worked, or how low the SWR is. From a mobile standpoint, about all they prove is, QRP is alive and well!

DC Wiring & Grounds

There are misconceptions about DC wiring too. In a mobile installation, any requisite DC ground is supplied adequately by the power cable that came with the transceiver. Adding a ground to the chassis isn't all bad, but if it solved a problem (RFI or other wise), then something else in your installation is (was) amiss.

In fact, there are instances where hard grounding the chassis can cause you grief. For example, if there is a differential in current flow between the ground side of the power cable and the chassis of the radio, you have what is commonly referred to as a ground loop. This problem occurs most often when body-on-frame vehicles are not properly bonded, and/or the DC power wiring is incorrectly installed.

Part of the problem is the surfeit of anecdotal information across the web. For example, I recently read an article where the author suggested twisting the DC power cord in as many twists as possible using an electric drill! This technique is supposedly the cure for alternator whine, and a host of other mobile maladies. This is an absurd notion without any merit. I might add, using RG8 coax as power cabling is as inane. The truth is, induced and radiated RFI are best cured at the source.

Related Problem

If my e-mail inbox is any indication, the most prevalent problems are those related to coax, and coax connectors. I have information on my web site about properly installing PL259s. There's a ton of information other places on the net about them too, including these very pages. The ARRL Handbook also explains the procedure in detail. So does information from the manufacturers themselves (primarily Amphenol). Why then is this still a problem?

Adding insult are screw on and crimp on connectors. While they might be okay in some installations, vehicle vibration makes their use suspect.

A typical HF mobile installation has a transceiver, wattmeter, antenna controller, perhaps an amplifier, and an antenna. That's about eight coax connections. If even one of them becomes intermittent, you're going to have problems.

Do yourself a couple of big favors. Buy silver plated connectors, not the "japanned" or Astrofinish ones because they are nearly impossible to solder. Don't buy connectors with white, Teflon-look-alike insulators. They're not Teflon, they're polystyrene (or polyester), and they melt! Silver plated, TFE insulated, PL259 connectors cost about $6 each. If you paid a lot less, you got a lot less.

The best advice I can offer about PL259 connectors is this; take whatever time it takes to install them correctly. Using the proper tools, it takes me about 3 minutes to complete a PL259 without a reducing sleeve (RG8), and about 5 minutes with one (RG58 or RG8X). One of my good friends can't do one any faster than 15 minutes. The point is, it doesn't make any difference how fast you do it, but how good you do it that counts.

Here's a piece of trivia. Circa 1930, an Amphenol engineer named E. Clark Quackenbush, designed the UHF coaxial connector. We commonly call it by its military designator, PL259. I bet he'd turn over in his grave if he knew the grief he has caused us all. If you want a little more history about UHF and other types of connectors, go to the Marvac web site.

Conclusion

We're in the age of Instant Gratification, where anything will do as long as some communication is possible. If this is your situation, and you're willing to live with it, fine. I'm not. I prefer to plan well, execute precisely, and operate moderately. While this takes more time, the rewards are much greater.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Mobile Grounds  
by K1CJS on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Part of the problem is the surfeit of anecdotal information across the web. For example, I recently read an article where the author suggested twisting the DC power cord in as many twists as possible using an electric drill! This technique is supposedly the cure for alternator whine, and a host of other mobile maladies. This is an absurd notion without any merit. I might add, using RG8 coax as power cabling is as inane. The truth is, induced and radiated RFI are best cured at the source."

Alan, your advise is mostly sound and it is wise to follow. This paragraph, however, just shows you think your way is the only way and no other will work. Twisting the power wires together with a drill is silly, but just putting a twist in them, while it will not cure anything, may LESSEN the effects of the problems some are having with their installations. Likewise the mention of using RG-8 as a power cable. If it lessens the effects of RF noise heard at the transceiver, then why not?

It may be better to 'cure' the noise at the source, but in newer cars, that is nearly impossible--you would have to effectively shield the entire engine top and the underdash area. How about the newest autos out there, the hybrid cars? I would not even want to attempt to start to shield those super RF generators! Shielding may play hell with the cars individual components and may even effect the warrantee of the car. Car makers and dealerships will take anything unusual--or possibly improper--done to a car and throw it in your face in case of a warrantee claim. You may end up having to pay the repair charges AND having your modifications taken out to get the car back to proper operation.

Even though it is not your touted 'correct way' to do things, unusual wiring and or taking other measures that shield the radio and its connections instead of playing with something you may know nothing about (todays modern car circuitry) certainly makes more sense to a lot of of us than trying to redesign a cars electrical system.

In your unending quest to do things right, you are advocating the wrong methods for the reasons stated, not taking into account that some of us aren't the unending well of wisdom that you seem to be. Although some of us understand DC electric wiring, how to hook up our own rigs and how to bond pieces of the car frames and bodies together, there are very few of us that understand modern automobile wiring and control systems enough to even attempt to change the characteristics of those systems by shielding their various components. In the case of those who don't, the other methods which you so narrowly call inane are most definitely the better way to go.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Thanks Alan,

I mostly use the brute force method, been using that for years, both on the older autos and the newer autos.

The alternator whine is the same today as it was years of the past. Use of the same corrective methods works for me.

Your system will work because it is the cut and try system, can't go wrong there my friend, if one doesn't work, try another, the other will work.

Twisting the wires on a electric drill, well, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT8K on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks, Alan, for another informative article. I respect your knowledge, and am confident you do not regard yourself (or anyone else) as "an unending well of wisdom".

I appreciate comments that add positive and sometimes alternative views and information to the topic, but ... Please, people, keep the emotional tone out of it. Negativity only detracts from the value of the article and comments. If you have something negative to say .. please keep it private.

Thanks again, Alan, and thanks to all the positive contributors to the articles and forums on eham.net.

Best rx & 73 de kt8k - Tim
 
Mobile Grounds  
by KK7SS on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"For example, I recently read an article where the author suggested twisting the DC power cord in as many twists as possible using an electric drill! This technique is supposedly the cure for alternator whine, and a host of other mobile maladies. This is an absurd notion without any merit."

Really?? From over 30 years experience in installing Large scale Real-Time computers.... twisting the I/O line-data pairs in the cables from the CPU to/from memory and external I/O devices definitely reduces noise/pulse pickup from undesired sources... So why should it not work on a mobile installation?

Dave
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W3JXP on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I see this idea that twisted pair will reduce noise pick up all the time. Too bad its only true in a limited case.
The way it's supposed to work is the noise is picked up equally by both wires and it cancels it self and goes away. This it true IF the the twisted pair are a BALANCED system, then the noise is picked up equally by both wires in the twisted pair and the common mode rejection of the device on the receiving end will reject signals that are common to both wires and only pass the signal that is differential to the wires. If the device on the receiving end has no common mode rejection then it will not reject the noise. This works with balanced antenna transmission lines, with twisted pairs in computer networking and other places were true balanced to ground transmission lines are used. It doesn't work with unbalanced lines. If both wires do not have the same impedance to ground it is not a balanced system. All you have then is coax with very poor shielding.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by K1CJS on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Please pardon my departure from the discussion, however, I owe an apology to Alan for certain parts of my post. I was much less than polite and I apologise to Alan and to the participants for that.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by WB2WIK on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>Mobile Grounds Reply
by KK7SS on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Really?? From over 30 years experience in installing Large scale Real-Time computers.... twisting the I/O line-data pairs in the cables from the CPU to/from memory and external I/O devices definitely reduces noise/pulse pickup from undesired sources... So why should it not work on a mobile installation?<

::No reason it should work in a mobile installaton. It doesn't help with old single-ended SCSI or ATA devices, either, because they're not differential and the signals aren't carried by a balanced pair. New ATA/IDE, differential SCSI and all other differential devices (including PCI bridges, PCI-X, PCIe, etc) of modern architecture use balanced hosts and targets, so of course making the transmission line that connects them balanced helps, and twisting the pair is a proven aid -- as it has been since the early days of telephone "twisted pairs." But DC power lines aren't differential.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by AA4PB on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Twisting a pair ONLY works to reduce noise pickup if both inputs and outputs are balanced. Neither line can be grounded at either end - definatly NOT the case in mobile power distribution.

All that twisting the power lines to a mobile radio could possibly do is add a little capacitance between the conductors. Since most radios have L/C filters at the radio I don't see how this little added capacitance could accomplish much.

I have never experienced a case where the power wiring was picking up any RF noise and feeding it into the radio. If that happened, it would be a very poorly designed radio, indeed. I have seen cases where multiple vehicle grounds (i.e. a ground loop) have feed alternator whine into the radio but twisting the wires would not have helped that situation.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by N6AJR on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan has it all correct, but I still like to ground , ground, ground.

In both cars I run a ft 857 and ATAS antennas. Now I relaize these are definitely compromises and that said, with out a chassis ground at the radio, it often does not want to tune the antenna ( wire braid from a case screw to a self tapping sheet metal screw in the floor next to the radio)consistantly. I uses ma variation in voltage to the antenna to tune and it wants a chassis ground here for that.

The nice thing about the ft857/atas system, is it is easy for me to install, ( I'm disabled) and also setup for 1 button tuning while driving, without looking. I also fits in the garage. Is it the best antenna in the world? NO, but it is the best compromise for me in this situation. If I want to work real dx I will use the orion/ alpha/ steppir in the house. This is just to play with while mobile.

I also use a diamond k 400 c mount and without a braid from the mount to the body, it tends to motorboat from poor contact at speeds above 50 mph due to the ground through the trunk lid vibrating at speed, interupting the ground circuit.

A third place I use a braided ground is from the neg post of the battery to the inside of the fender panel to be sure the ground path is direct and not through the driveline and motor grounds to the battery.

I also use direct battery to radio cables ( usually 5 or 6 foot automotive pre-made battery cables) , about 6 bucks at the auto store, with the flat ends with holes in them. These will handle 400 amps or so, the will do.

In my pickup I run a 800 watt inverter in the cab for power to the laptop, ( or coffee pot) while operating mobile. I use a FT-847 in the truck. This is a proper radio, and the large flat top is a great place to spread out lunch too.

On the truck I use a DK-3 with a 60 inch whip for 10-80 and a comet tribander for fm 2m/440/6m stuff mounted on the rail.

The DK-3 also wants a good braided ground at the mount. Don Johnson his self spells this out in his direction sheet and in his Mobileering Book too.

I agree that the ground is not the panacea for all problems mobile, but lack of or poor grounding can cause problems in the mobile station.

Some times I get in what appears to be a disagreement with Alan on this, but I am not electronics whiz kid.

I did learn my electronics from Uncle Sam in the US Air Force in the 60's, in Electronic Countermeasures Repair, and have worked on everything from the Lead slead ( F-100) to the BUFF ( B52-G) and F-105's, F4C's and some aircraft we still can't talk about...Shhhhh.

I have been a licensed Ham since 1978 and don't claim to know much. But these are the findings I have made with my own equipment over the years.

So get out there and set up a mobile rig, in your vehicle. It is nice to have company on a long drive, be it on 146.52 fm or 7.235 lsb.
good luck and GUD DX to all.

(there is a pic of the truck with the DK-3 here)

http://hometown.aol.com/catfishtwo/N6AJR.html
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I posed the ground plane question when I was in Las Vegas visiting some friends at AES. They knew I was motorcycle mobile with a rubber ducky as I was when I was in the Corvette. Several people jumped in on the conversation and suggested that the Diamond NR770H series worked 'real-good' without a good ground plane.

Now I get compliments on a 'full-quieting' signal both from the Corvette and the Harley, both sorely lacking in the ground-plane department.

I have only found one other person say the 'same' thing in the eHam review.

Anyone know why this antenna works well without a good ground when other 'similar' ones don't?
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by K1CJS on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Just an observation: Some of us do put a twist in the power wiring. It sometimes does alleviate some RFI noise, depending on the installation. You can do the math and conclude it won't help much, but a little may be enough. One other thing that makes a less noisy installation is care and extra time taken while actually doing the installation. Twisting the wires keeps them together and while the capacitive effect is minimal, sometimes it helps, just as routing the wiring away from other under the hood wiring does.

Routing and securing the wiring in the engine compartment and soldering the connections are both important. The neater and more secure the wiring installation, the more noise free and trouble free it will be.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
I just went through my ARRL handbooks from 1940 through 1981 and I aquired quite a bit of information in regards to mobile installations of radio equipment.

You will find ideas suggested in the ARRL Handbooks.

Mobile, Portable and Emergency Equipment.

............Electrical Noise Elimination............
............Spark Plug Noise.........................
............Charging System Noise....................
............Instrument noise.........................
............Corona-Dischage noise....................
............Electrical Noise Reduction...............
............Plus Information On Batteries............
............Plus Much More...........................

Add all of Alans post to the ARRL Handbooks and you should have all of your problems solved.

Get it straight from the Dragons mouth.

ARRL Handbooks, buy one today. Support the ARRL.

W6TH
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by K1CJS on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Vito,

I suggest that there are quite a few more items that have been added in the way of automobile ignition and control systems since 1981. There are even some parts that should not be shielded--the shielding is detrimental to the operation of the engine and its control systems and may even cause damage to the car if not done in accordance with the car makers explicit instructions.

Always consult the area technical representative for the car manufacturer--the local dealers may not yet be up to speed on all the information needed.

 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
K1CJS,

Yes I realized that as well.

Taking two foot lengths of RG 58 and put them in parallel grounding the shield and putting these in series of the generator field windings is much better than the twisted wires. This works and is called a axial capacitor.

I suggest that theory added to practical is more necessary.
The theory will cut down on the cut and try system, don't you agree?
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I don't know about all vehicles, but I do know new models (Cadillac, Corvette, and Honda) don't want our 'little' radios in their cars. (Even threatened that the warantee may be null & void if the 'radio' fries their 'little'circuit boards)

I believe a new car computer (whatever they call it) is ~$1000. I have not had any trouble,but as the gentleman said, check with your dealer and maybe a professional installer as well.

 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
K1CJS,
Another thing I must say; because you do not have that knowledge to have a fixed system to complete a problem, don't forget there are many others that can complete the work you are not able or familiar with.

I am not being nasty or a wise guy, but just to let you know that there are many out in electronics field that know a lot more than you do.

Get a life.
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
by KT6K on October 18, 2006
I don't know about all vehicles, but I do know new models (Cadillac, Corvette, and Honda) don't want our 'little' radios in their cars. (Even threatened that the warantee may be null & void if the 'radio' fries their 'little'circuit boards)
........................................................

In that case, just forget about installing a ham radio.

That is if you do not know what you are doing.

.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Twisting power leads is (I thought) always done in mobile operations. Twisting the wires is a commonly done for the purposes of canceling out electromagnetic interference from external sources. The greater the number of twists, the more interference is reduced--twisting wires decreases interference because the loop area between the wires (which determines the magnetic coupling into the signal) is reduced as much as physically possible. Often the two wires carry equal and opposite signals which are combined by subtraction at the destination. The noise from the two wires cancels each other in this subtraction because the two wires have been exposed to similar electromagnetic interference.

Twisted pair cables can also be shielded to further prevent electromagnetic radiation from car components. However my experience is, newer cars don't have the 'noise' problems that our older cars used to have.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W7ETA on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
<The net result is, there is ground loss. Depending on the vehicle, the surface under it, how the antenna is mounted, and what frequency we're operating on; this loss is from 2 to about 20 ohms, but can be more.>

Can you expand upon this?

73
Bob
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by K1CJS on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH,

There is theory, then there is theory--totally different. Which are you speaking of? The actual proven theory or the 'In theory, this might work, so I'll try it.'

At least I know enough to admit I don't know everything about the newer electronic systems in today's cars. Are you trying to say you know everything detail about every new make and model car there is? Something makes me doubt that you do--and something tells me you're puffing out your feathers here.

Yes, I know basic electronic theory and the theory and facts concerning RFI and noise suppression. Theory added to practice IS better, but sometimes in maybe one out of thirty or forty installations you may run into a situation where hit and miss is all that is left--and you still apply the theory.

As you said, (not to be nasty here either) there are those who know more than I do. There are also those that know more than you do. Each of us may be aware of things that the other has no idea about. Therefore your remark about 'getting a life' applies equally well to you, so maybe you should 'get a life' as well?
 
Mobile Grounds  
by K7QQH on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thank You for a great article Alan--

Onto specifics from an old time mobile operator with about 35 years experience:

1. Read the old ARRL mobile handbooks and apply the techniques. What Alan has indicated is backed up in those volumes.

2. Ground and bond. I repeat: Ground and bond. Use a portable shortwave radio/headphones as a "sniffer" to locate noise sources. Clean surfaces and apply ground straps accordingly. These sources can be fenders, bumpers, tailpipes, engine blocks, circuit breaker boxes (newer cars), etc. When you're through "grounding and bonding" a location, apply conformal coat and seal that surface.

3. Apply the "ground and bond" technique and locate the antenna outer shield braid as close to the feed point as possible. Seal with conformal coat material.

4. Forget about "twisted pair" DC feedlines. Get into your junk box and locate old ferrite loop antenna sticks. Break/saw off about 2 inches of loop material and wrap 3-5 turns from the battery positive terminal around the ferrite stick and apply heat shrink tubing to hold the entire affair in place.
Use bypass capacitors off the battery positive terminal (AFTER the fuse block). Again, the old ARRL manuals will give typical values and ratings.

5. Use bypass capacitors liberally. This includes, but is not limited to: Fan motor inputs (apply at the connector), fuel tank wiring, door buzzer, etc. Again, values can be found in those ARRL handbooks for specific frequencies to quell hash.

6. Learn to discriminate between alternator/battery input DC hash and ignition noise. How? If you remove the antenna and the noise goes away, it's ignition induced. If not, it's charging system induced.

7. Experiment with chassis and other ground techniques with a series of alligator clips and jumpers. In my Jeep pickup truck, the chassis ground access point is the hold-down bolts for the passenger seat.

8. If your ignition system can handle this, apply shielding directly to spark plug ignition wires, distributor caps, etc. How: Locate 3M product 1181 conductive copper foil adhesive shielding tape (look on their website for material specs) and apply the tape to all those surfaces. Again, read old ARRL mobile handbooks regarding grounding shielded runs to engine blocks at the spark plug ends, distributor caps, etc. This is probably one of the most important items you can do to effectively cut ignition noise, and after all the band-aids are said and done, learn to shield components! Again, use the portable shortwave radio as the "sniffer". Where there's noise, apply shielding and grounds.

Anyway, I could on and on. Have run all kinds of rigs from all kinds of vehicles, and some combination of the above has always cleared up the noise. After you've "quieted" your vehicle, what is problematic is the noise from the OTHER vehicles around you.

For you airplane buffs, study shielding/ignition noise reduction methods as used in typical general aviation aircraft - those same methods apply to automotive systems.

As for antennas, I have more thoughts on those, but for now, get your vehicle "quieted" so you can at least apply the old adage: "If you can't hear 'em you can't work 'em", and then worry about antenna ground planes, matching systems/networks, mobile linears and the rest of it.

73's and Best Regards to All

Roger C.
Aircraft Systems Engineer
Seattle-Town

 
Mobile Grounds  
by KC2WI on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Here's what worked for me:

I had a Lakeview 4-magnet mount and hamstick on the roof on my Ford Escort wagon. It worked great. The secret was running short ground leads from each side of the mount to a ground screw on the body. (I was not using braid, just heavey gauge stranded wire I happened to have. It seemed to work so I never bothered to change to braid.) I ran the leads in through the back doorss and used the screws holding the passenger grab bars. To see if I could do better, I drilled a small hole through the roof for a machine screw [the car was 10 years old, with 150,000 miles when I tried it...] and ran a very short ground (about 3") to it. It didn't seem to make much difference.

I also ran short ground leads from metal under the dash direct to the radio, but didn't notice too much difference in terms of signal or noise with or without them connected.

I inititially ran DC power from the cigarette ligher (a real no-no according to conventional wisdom) but later ran heavy wires (fused appropriately) direct from the battery. Again I couldn't tell much difference.

What I could do was take the radio out of the car as far as the power leads and coax would allow, and operate without noticing significant change in signal TX or RX. I guess the point is that if you ground the coax shield/antenna base well, it does wonders for the RF performance.

As far as ground losses, having the antenna on top of the relatively large roof surface of the wagon was the best possible situation. I also carried some random lengths of wire which I attached directly to the mount as radial/counterpoise wires, and in several experiments found that they increased my TX signal, especially on the lower frequencies.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 18, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

KC2WI ... I love it!

Do you have a picture? I would love to see it!

You are definitely 'true-blue' as far as hams go!

73, f
 
Mobile Grounds  
by N8QBY on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W6TH writes:
K1CJS,
"Another thing I must say; because you do not have that knowledge to have a fixed system to complete a problem, don't forget there are many others that can complete the work you are not able or familiar with.

I am not being nasty or a wise guy, but just to let you know that there are many out in electronics field that know a lot more than you do.

Get a life".

Vito, why do you always make it a point to go out of your way to try and degrade someone else's skills?? You don't seem to be happy unless you are doing this. Well, news flash Vito, there are MANY more skilled hams than yourself. K0BG knows more about mobile antenna installations, and the theory behind them, than yourself, so there is no need for you to even be running your pie-hole.
To K1CJS and others, just consider the source, and that Vito has lost all concept of the real world.

Live and enjoy life.

Pat N8QBY

.:
 
Mobile Grounds  
by N8QBY on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
To K0BG:

Sorry Alan, I am not trying to stray from you article. Excellent post, and appreciated.

.:
 
Mobile Grounds  
by N8QBY on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Spell check: I meant to say, "your article".

.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by K8MHZ on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Taking two foot lengths of RG 58 and put them in parallel grounding the shield and putting these in series of the generator field windings is much better than the twisted wires."

Vito,

I would hazard to guess that if you and I went to a car dealership and we opened the hood on a fairly new car you would not even be able to find the 'generator.'

Cars have been using alternators for decades. You probably wouldn't be able to find that, either. Many have the voltage regulators built into the case so doing anything with the field windings is not really possible. Others have the voltage regulated by the engine control computers. Messing around there may just cost a thousand bucks or more when you toast the computer.

Sorry to say, but what worked on the Packard won't necessarily work on today's vehicles.

Get a modern life. Oh, and I'm not saying that to be nasty.
 
Mobile Grounds  
by N8QBY on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
:o) @ K8MHZ.. good point.

.:
 
Mobile Grounds  
by QSYING on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Is this the net for (e)motionally (H)ampered (a)rrogant (m)alcontents (eHam)?

What I have seen in nearly every article or forum is a potentially valuable resource laid waste by certain few people continually making fools of themselves.

The more time they spend here, the less time they spend on the air, which is good.

I have seen middle school students behave better.

Bob - KC9JUB

 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by K1CJS on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Mark,

I considered that reply to Vito, but the car I had in mind was the 'Edsel'. There again, maybe I WAS thinking too modern. ;-)
 
Mobile Grounds  
by KE7AKS on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well for whatever it's worth, here is an experience that I had with a 1990 Ford Escort.
I wanted to use an older (vintage) radio that I suspect was rather weak for filtering. I hooked it up, checked the standing wave, and all worked just fine. Next I started the engine and had a good amount of noise. Not the popping sound of secondary ignition or whine of alternator noise, but hash like static. I replaced the power leads and went straight to the battery, this made the noise quite a bit WORSE.
I then came up with the bright idea to run RG-8 shielded coax for power(center conductor)and ground (shield). It was a bear to run, and it made the noise the WORST of all. I then ran a short piece of braided
(coax shield)wire from a brace under the dash to the ground side of the coax power lead and all most all the ignition noise stopped. the painted mounting brackets for the radio must not have been doing a good job of grounding the case of the radio. I didn't persue the true cause, just went with it working. I asked HRO about QRM in this kind of car, and they just rolled their eyes, and said that the Ford Escort might be about the worst for noise. I certainly do not advise using RG-8 coax for power lead.
KE7AKS 73's Harv
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I'd like to comment again on what is getting to be a 'sick and twisted' thread...

Adding a choke between the battery and your 'radidio' and resistor plugs was best for older vehicles (the twisted rg-58 someone refered to is called 'shielding' the twisted pair--the braid goes to ground), but doesn't twisting any necessary dc power cabling helps prevent your wiring from acting as an antenna and picking up spurious emissions from other em radiation sources? Doesn't 'Shielding' help too? (I buy shielded twisted pair--much neater)

More often then not in my experience, it helps (sometimes actually works), doesn't it? It will really help keep the noise out of that boom-box in the back lol...

f
 
Mobile Grounds  
by K8AG on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Alan,

Never heard the twist the DC lead in a drill before. Maybe it confuses the errant electrons. ;)

Had a recent fortunate event. My side view mirror was broken off by a vandal. Seeing it hang there on the control wires, this might not seem to most to be fortunate, but let me explain. I had a problem with drilling a hole in the top of my nice relatively flawless Dodge. However I would rather spend money on an antenna than a replacement mirror (which I glued back in place with epoxy). Works great. Looks bad. Anyway now my car isn't pristine anymore so it opens up the potential for an antenna on the roof.

Now to shop for which one. I like this part.

Good post. I think ground loops are a mystery to most folks.

73, JP, K8AG
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Two wires twisted together are like a transmission line.

The line twisted, there is a energy path that causes equal amplitude, but opposite in phase which cause a cancellation of the energy from radiating. Also there with the two wires causes an capacitive effect and also acts as a capacitor. The above I mentioned as to a generator has the same effect to a alternator which transforms ac to dc by three diodes within the structure.

These methods are known as brute force and do a great amount of attenuation of unwanted annoyances in the electric field. By-passing of certain circuits can eliminate much interference, but one must know what they are doing by checking the circutry.

I often wonder what the police force uses to be able to run their radios and not be worried or concerned of damage to their radio equipment?
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Typing error:checking the circutry. Should be circuitry.
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by K1CJS on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The power input of most public service radios include suppression for RFI, but--just as the majority of 2 meter rigs, public service radios use FM, not AM. It is well known that FM is not prone to interference like AM is.
__________

I just figured out the purpose of twisting the positive and negative wires tightly--since electricity travels at the speed of light, the noise signals are spun off by centrifugal force! Now why didn't we think of that before? ;-)
 
Mobile Grounds  
by N0AH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
same article, with 47th draft-
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by WA6BFH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

As I’m aware, and have put into practice, the noisiest of radio environments is at the lowest frequencies. I find this true of 6 Meters, which is pretty much the lowest frequency band that I operate on.

It is though darn inconvenient to have to drive only one quarter wavelength before I have to get out of the car to pull up, and then replace the ground rod. Of course Los Angeles freeway conditions allow this to be somewhat more practical since one only moves about 3 or 4 feet at a go. Also the cracks and pot-holes in the freeway pavement allow for adequate placement.

73, and of course just kidding {about everything but the less than quarter-wave grounding conductor}!
de John

 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by AA4PB on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Yes, twisting the two wires together causes the opposing magnetic fields to cancel IF the currents are equal and opposite. In the typical mobile installation the current in the negative wire is NOT equal to the current in the positive wire because the current from the negative side of the battery divides among several different ground paths thru the chassis.

The twisted pair only works to cancel the opposing fields to prevent radiation and noise pick up if the circuit is totally balanced. To be balanced there can be no other paths for current flow except thru those two wires and the impedance to ground must be the same for both conductors. Both the source and the load must be balanced.

Most radios have reasonably well filtered power inputs and are not likely to pass the small amounts of RFI that might be picked up on the power leads into the radio. Most RFI comes in via the antenna. It will go away if you disconnect the antenna. Alternator whine is generally a low frequency (audio frequency range) signal that is conducted down the power wires from the alternator. Twisting the leads will not do much to eliminate conducted alternator noise.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by AA4PB on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Most noise seems to peak around 40 to 50 MHz. It is less below that range and less above that range.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by WA6BFH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

AA4PB,

Oh yea? I find 160, and 80 Meters to be markedly noisier!

Of course, I do get to drive at least 60 to 120 feet before I have to pull up and replace the ground rod.

73! de John ;-)
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Welcome back John. Now that you are back, I am out of here.
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG claims “twisting the DC power cord an absurd notion without any merit. I might add, using RG8 coax as power cabling is as inane. The truth is, induced and radiated RFI are best cured at the source.”

Your Amateur Radio Handbook never mentions ‘twisting’ as a means of noise elimination, but instead focuses on finding the source of noise, and eliminating the source of the noise. That’s fair…if you can find it and eliminate it, good!


AA4PB claims “ twisting the two wires together causes the opposing magnetic fields to cancel IF the currents are equal and opposite. In the typical mobile installation the current in the negative wire is NOT equal to the current in the positive wire because the current from the negative side of the battery divides among several different ground paths thru the chassis.”

I thought that was called a ‘ground-loop’?

I went outside to check after reading your post…the ammeters in both the +/- 12vdc cables from my battery to my mobile are still the same 1 w to 50 w.

Can you deliberate further please?
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Long parallel power runs also act as antennas which can 'receive' unwanted Radio Frequency Interference (RFI)/Electromagnetic Interference (EMI) emitted in the radio frequency range by electrical circuits that carry rapidly changing signals. This emission can cause the induction of unwanted signals (interference or noise) into other circuits. This inducted noise/interference CAN interrupt, obstruct, or degrades the effective performance of those circuits. It has 'nothing' to do with how many ground paths you have to power your radidio on the (-) path.

How do the wires being closer together minimize noise interference? In the vehicle environment, there are many magnetic fields to disturb the electrical signals inside cables. The physical location of each conductor in relation to the source of the magnetic field dictates the strength of the interference. The further away from each other the conductors are, the larger the difference in strengths of the interference. This difference in magnetic field strength is directly related to the amount of noise transmitted.

How does Twisted Pair Technology help eliminate noise interference? Twisted pair technology helps eliminate noise by alternating the position of the conductor inside the magnetic fields thereby canceling out the differences in the frequency of the interference.

Try it after you 'spin' it, not 'spin' it before you try it. Can I suggest you experimenting for yourself before I am veto’d again?
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Noise from the vehicle battery charging circuit can interfere with both transmitting and reception of radio signals. The charging system of a modern automobile consists of a belt driven a three phase alternator and a solid state voltage regulator. This can radiate interference both on receive and transmitting.

The way to correct this problem is to insert in series one or two coaxial capacitors about 0.5ufd , but do not put any capacity across the field winding. There are other ways with ferrite beads.

Too long to go into more detail to explain on this page so will stop here as there are other means and ways.

W6TH.
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by W6TH on October 19, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
When the twisted pair of wires are used, one will have to run the radio directly from the automobile battery. This system may correct the alternator whine. Wouldn't hurt to try it and let us know how successful you were.

W6TH.
.:
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by G8UBJ on October 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Better still just take all those PL/SO239s and bin them.

Loss through a PL239 at HF may not be an issue but using N-types cures a lot of connection problems.

 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by AA4PB on October 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
John, you are correct if you include atmospheric noise. I was thinking about ignition and other noises generated in an automobile. I find those to peak in the 40-50MHz range. Collins used to make a noise blanker receiver that operated somewhere around 40MHz as I recall.

73, Bob
 
Mobile Grounds  
by VE1BLL on October 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Using a 102-inch whip on 80m would obviously benefit from heavy gauge wiring from the antenna coupler (antenna tuner) to the whip and related grounding to the vehicle chassis. But QSY to 10m and everything calms down to reasonable feed-point impedances and you could use 14 gauge grounding.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Noise from the vehicle battery charging circuit can interfere with both transmitting and reception of radio signals. The charging system of a modern automobile consists of a belt driven a three phase alternator and a solid state voltage regulator. This can radiate interference both on receive and transmitting.

The way to correct this problem is to insert in series one or two coaxial capacitors about 0.5ufd , but do not put any capacity across the field winding. There are other ways with ferrite beads.

Too long to go into more detail to explain on this page so will stop here as there are other means and ways.

W6TH.
.: "

Thank you, we all have the Amateur Radio Handbook.

KT6K

 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by KT6K on October 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"When the twisted pair of wires are used, one will have to run the radio directly from the automobile battery. This system may correct the alternator whine. Wouldn't hurt to try it and let us know how successful you were.

W6TH. "
.:

I believe I and others have already posted our results previously, and not to long ago.

The point (twisted pair technology) has always been about other ways of defeating 'unknown' sources of EFI, not your 'common' vehicle noise source reduction techniques which are obvious, and in your Amateur Radio 'Hanbook'.

Don't spin it before you try it, try it before you spin it...I have, have you?


KT6K/6...power supply courtesy of Harley Davidson!
 
Mobile Grounds  
by N2RRA on October 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

Great article! Want to thank you, and John for all the help and knowledge on proper vehicle grounding espicially on the new hybrid cars such as the Toyota Prius that I now own.

Using the information you, and John (VE3XKD) have provided have shown extreme results in my mobile operation. It's great that I can now hear stations where it was extremely difficult at one time. Thanks again for all the research development.

Now working on also improving mobile operation by following in your research methods, and will keep you, and John (VE3XKD)informed as to what I find.

73 and all the best,
Eric
N2RRA
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by N5EAT on October 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Someone needs to define and explain some terms so some understanding can be imparted. What is ground loss? Does that mean that rf is going into the actual dirt that comprises the earth? What is being capacitatively coupled from the car to the earth? Is it rf, current, .... what?

What do ground radials do for a ground mounted antenna? Keep radiation from the vertical element from going into ghe ground? Radiate as would the other half of a dipole? What happens when you just run a ground rod into the earth as a "ground"?

We get lots of data but very little information in some of these discussions. These discussions don't go very far because almost everyone has some misunderstanding of the terms being used. Myself included.
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by N3OX on October 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Does that mean that rf is going into the actual dirt that comprises the earth? What is being capacitatively coupled from the car to the earth? Is it rf, current, .... what?"

Yes and yes, RF current flows in the soil, and is capacitatively coupled there by the capacitor formed by the car body and the ground under it and nearby.

With verticals, equal currents flow in element and the ground system, whatever it is. Could be a car, could be a bunch of ground radials. A car is kind of like a small, elevated, untuned counterpoise... you'd get similar results from a small grid of wires under a vertical.

Unlike a grid of copper wires soldered together, a car's body has joints with nonnegligible resistance. The ground isn't a very good conductor either, and there you have a "ground resistance," the effective resistance in series with the RF return current path.

The ground loss that this article is concerned with is just the RF turned to heat in that loss resistance.

It can be pretty substantial with short mobile antennas because they have low radiation resistance. Efficiency is determined by the amount of power that is dissipated in the loss resistance vs. the amount of power "dissipated" in the radiation resistance, this is the power that gets radiated.

A short mobile antenna might have an equivalent circuit that you could represent by resistors, inductors and capacitors that looks like this:

|--Rrad--Rcond--Xant-Rmatch-Xmatch-feedpoint-Rgnd--|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Rrad is the radiation resistance, Rcond is the conductor loss resistance in the antenna and, Xant is the reactance of the antenna, Rmatch and Xmatch are the resistance and reactance of the matching network, and Rgnd is the resistance of the grounding system. For efficient operation, you want to minimize Rcond+Rmatch+Rgnd and maximize Rrad. You minimize Rcond by using a fat, low loss piece of tubing for the antenna. You minimize Rmatch by, for example, using a big, high-Q loading coil, and you minimize Rgnd by bonding your vehicle together well and using ground radials when you're not moving, and so forth. You maximize Rrad by making the antenna taller and loading higher up on the structure.

Dan
 
RE: Mobile Grounds  
by N5EAT on October 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks Dan!
 
Mobile Grounds  
by KC8WPJ on November 1, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for this information, some what informative for my needs. I am running "fixed mobile" into a High Sierra pro 1800 elevated 15 foot at coil with out ground radials and not grounded at station. I am having major RFI problems, everything from car ignitions to hair dryers. I live in an antenna restricted location where the community has lifted the restriction to no more than seven feet over my roof peak and I really don't have any room to turn a large boom. Now I know to suppres ignition noise you should install ferite beads in the primary and secondary ignition leads. Alternator whine and ratiated noise can be minimized by connecting the radio's power leads to the battery by the shortest possible path. Being that I am a fixed mobile, power supply, mobile radio, and mobile antenna on a fixed location. My question is, How in the world can I get rid of all this noise and improve performance?!!
73's eveyone,
David <KC8WPJ>
 
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