'You're Off Frequency!'
David E. Greer (N4KZ)
on
December 20, 2006
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Ever since the invention of the VFO, hams have been telling each other, "You're off frequency." The situation became more noticeable when SSB transceivers became popular because different people tuned SSB differently. Some nailed it properly so that voices sounded natural -- they were on frequency, or zero beat -- but others, probably caused by differences in hearing, tuned SSB so that signals often sounded high- or low-pitched -- what I call off frequency.
Manufacturers then responded with receiver incremental tuning (RIT) on transceivers so stations in QSO wouldn't walk themselves up or down the band with constant retuning.
In those days -- the late 1960s and early 1970s -- we thought we were high on the hog when rigs came out that featured analog dials with 1 kHz resolution. No two rigs read the exact same frequency but as long as we were in our band, or license sub-band, it didn't matter. You tuned a SSB signal until the other guy's voice sounded natural and that was it. You were on frequency. The precise frequency didn't matter and most of us couldn't determine it anyway.
Then along came digital readouts. They were nice -- and often were real close in their readouts -- but different rigs from different manufacturers seldom agreed with each other when it came to the digits on the right side of the last decimal point. But again, as long as you were in the band, it didn't matter. But that didn't stop some folks from telling others "You're off frequency."
But now some newer hams are tuning to specific frequencies -- often whole numbers ending in zero -- and not tuning SSB so that it just sounds natural.
I noticed this a few months ago when a Texas station answered my 10-meter SSB CQ. When he began calling, he was very, very high-pitched. I turned on my RIT and began tuning. He was more than 400 Hz off my frequency. After chatting a few minutes and learning that he was new to HF, I told him he was way off my frequency. He replied that I was the one who was off frequency.
Hmmm, I thought. Since I was the one who called CQ, I thought he should be tuning to my frequency. But in talking with him, I learned that he'd been told that on the HF bands, you should always tune to a frequency ending in zero-zero. It was easier that way, he said.
A few days later, I finished a SSB QSO and another station called me. He was off frequency but I just turned on the RIT and tuned him in without saying anything. He knew I had a new rig. Then he announced that it was too bad that my new rig was off frequency. Since he had called me, I wondered how that was possible. He was supposed to tune me in. Then I realized why we were on different frequencies. He hadn't tried to tune me in so I sounded natural -- he was tuned to the nearest zero-zero frequency. Duh!
I suppose I'm a throwback to an earlier generation. When I find a clear frequency (and ask if it's in use), I just call CQ. It doesn't matter what the digital readout says -- as long as I'm in the band. The "zero-zero" strategy seems rather silly to me -- particularly since different rigs from different manufacturers still won't always agree with each other.
Reading the mail on the bands in recent months, I've heard a few other old-timers commenting about this new tuning practice of zero-zero. I even ran across it the other day on a ham club web site. An experienced HF operator had published a list of operating tips for new HF operators. I was surprised when he suggested the zero-zero strategy for tuning. It makes it easier for everyone by alleviating the argument of what's the right frequency, the list said.
Wow, I've been a ham since my junior high days in the late 1960s and have never tuned SSB stations that way. Have I missed something along the way?
I am the first to admit this is not a huge deal. That's why our transceivers have RIT on them but it's still kind of annoying to have to retune so many people.
Where did this idea come from that HF ham radio only uses whole-number frequencies -- what amounts to the channelization of the bands? Is this operating practice something from Citizens Band, channelized VHF FM or illegal operations below 10 meters? -- Just wondering -- and wondering what others think of this "new" way of SSB tuning. (By the way, I think it's a good idea for nets, when possible, to stick with whole-number frequencies.) But it's apparent that the phrase "You're off frequency" now means different things to different hams -- depending usually on how long you've been on the air.
73, Dave, N4KZ
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WG7X on December 20, 2006
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Holy Channel Knob Batman!
Dave, we're in for it now... This is the new Amateur radio. No VFO's any more, just a channel selector knob and a "clarifier"
This kind of stupidity comes directly from the envrionment the new operators themselves come from: CB.
I could say more, but times a wasting...
CUL es 73
Gary WG7X
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by SWANMAN on December 20, 2006
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Hmmm...semms to me that the Generals, Advanced and Extras have been using 'channels' on 60-meters for quite some time now. So much for the 'new ham theory.'
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 20, 2006
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More proof that we do need to spend some time with the newcomers, and the newcomers need to learn that they don't know it all when they get that piece of paper.
The ones who called YOU and then said you were off frequency were simply wrong. No quibbles about it. Since they were calling you, YOUR frequency is the defining one. Therefore it is impossible that you were "off".
Nets and calling frequencies are another matter. Everyone should try to stay as close to the published frequency as possible. In the case of a net, however, it is the net control station that defines the frequency. If he/she is "up .02", then everyone else should tune "up .02". It's really quite simple. Zero in on the net control. (And at that point don't even look at the frequency readout on your rig.)
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 20, 2006
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"Hmmm...semms to me that the Generals, Advanced and Extras have been using 'channels' on 60-meters for quite some time now. So much for the 'new ham theory.'"
Only because there ARE channels on that band. And it is the only one with channels. And not many of us seem to be using that band.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by ALLENCB on December 20, 2006
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Quote: This kind of stupidity comes directly from the envrionment the new operators themselves come from: CB
Um. No. I am a new ham as of this spring (just a tech class though). I had no idea that you'd tune in that way. It makes sense, but I don't recall reading anything specific about doing that. Part of my ignorance is from having to learn this on my own. I only recently met another Ham in person and we haven't had time to do any work together. But I guess that just makes me a CBer.
Quote: More proof that we do need to spend some time with the newcomers, and the newcomers need to learn that they don't know it all when they get that piece of paper.
Exactly. I don't even know what I don't know. I do my best by reading and listening to others online.
Chris
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K0CBA on December 20, 2006
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Nice article. Yes, the "zero-zero" method as you call it (the 'point zero zero' method may be a bit more accurate), seems to be SOP now.
I guess the only down side to working .3 or .5 or what ever, is that it makes for more splatter to and from the point zero zero stations just above and below you. So if that's the goal, then operating "plop 'n' squawk" will render the most success.
I am a bit confused however as most old timers tend to castigate newer ops for not 'doing as the Romans do' and like it or not, now a days the Romans seem to use point zero.
So slip into you favorite toga, set your rig for one kHz steps (kc for us oldies) and live life to it's fullest..... or to para phrase; "et tu Dave?".
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KX8N on December 20, 2006
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"I am the first to admit this is not a huge deal. That's why our transceivers have RIT on them but it's still kind of annoying to have to retune so many people. "
Why's it annoying? Does it kill you to turn your knob a little bit? Do you know how many net's I've heard where Generals and Extras in their 60's were not on the same frequency as net control?
And did you bother to correct them and teach them something, or did you just let them go on making their mistake?
It probably has absolutely nothing to do with CB or freebanding. Who knows, maybe Icom is mentioning something about operating on whole frequency numbers in their operator's manuals now. Maybe some wise-ass who is sore about the code change told them on the air that they should operate that way just to make them look bad.
People don't pull operating practices out of their rear ends. They do what they are taught and what they have observed, IF anyone has bothered to teach them anything to begin with (which is doubtful in this day of bias and hate). Instead of criticizing them, take them under your wing and teach them how to be a good ham. I have learned since 2000 that it's pretty well "every man for himself", which is so unfortunate.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 20, 2006
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"Quote: More proof that we do need to spend some time with the newcomers, and the newcomers need to learn that they don't know it all when they get that piece of paper.
Exactly. I don't even know what I don't know. I do my best by reading and listening to others online.
Chris"
Chris, sounds to me like you are one of the newcomers we need the most. Please feel free to email me anytime you have a question. I enjoy being an "email elmer". I have only been on the bands 31 years, so I certainly don't know it all, but will be glad to help with what I do know.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 20, 2006
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"I am a bit confused however as most old timers tend to castigate newer ops for not 'doing as the Romans do' and like it or not, now a days the Romans seem to use point zero."
No, it's not castigating newcomers. (At least that is not the tone should be.) It is trying to teach them the "rules of the road". And the "rules of the road" say you tune in on the station you are calling. For the simple reason that the readouts are just not that accurate. And that's what the Romans are doing! :o)
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA0ZZG on December 20, 2006
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Please take a moment to see how the rest of the communications world uses HF-SSB. Note these changes:
1. 100% of commercial SSB is on Upper side band. Amateurs are the only ones to use lower side band. This goes back to the designs of early radios where a simple mixing scheme allowed SSB to be generated on 80 and 20 meters, but on opposite side bands.
2. Amateurs reference operating frequency by the non-existing carrier frequency. Commercial reference by 'channel center' frequency. This is the center frequency of the occupied bandwidth. That is why the 60Meter frequencies are strange. They are channel center frequency assigments that have been converted to carrier frequencies.
3. Amateurs are the only ones to get a whole band of frequencies assigned. Commercial get a set of channel center frequencies assigned. These will be all over the HF spectrum. The company that sells you your radio, or more likely a radio system, will program in your assigned frequencies.
4. Commercial HF radios have a minimum number of knobs to keep the operator out of trouble. I think the amateur versions are better radios. Type accepted does not always mean better built.
5. Commercial and Marine radios do show up in the Amateur market. Don't expect to see a VFO knob. They are legal to use in the Amateur bands. You will find good audio but a wide filter. They do will at EOC's and other locations where the operator may not be familiar with current Amateur HF equipment and operations take place on a planned net frequency.
I've got an ICOM M700 marine radio. Puts out 150W.
Has an internal frequency programmer and 48 stored frequencies in 3 banks. Works LSB by placing the mode switch in an unlabeled position.
Dave WA0ZZG
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AA4ZZ on December 20, 2006
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K0CBA said:
"I guess the only down side to working .3 or .5 or what ever, is that it makes for more splatter to and from the point zero zero stations just above and below you. So if that's the goal, then operating "plop 'n' squawk" will render the most success."
In fact the opposite is true. If I am at the .0khz I may be too close to a station below me and QRM him and if I move up to the next full KHZ I may QRM a QSO above me in frequency. Yet there may be a QRM free chioce in the middle.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N2OBY on December 20, 2006
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<<Hmmm...semms to me that the Generals, Advanced and Extras have been using 'channels' on 60-meters for quite some time now. So much for the 'new ham theory.'>>
The channelized plan on 60 meters is per FCC directive, if I remember correctly.
N2OBY
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N2OBY on December 20, 2006
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I've been on the HF bands for the better part of a year now, and haven't encountered this - maybe because if I'm replying to someone else's call I naturally tune for the most natural sounding voice, without looking at the specific frequency (except of course to ensure that I'm within the permitted band/sub-band).
To tell a station whose call you are replying to that they are off-frequency is the height of ridiculousness.
This is simple common sense, but then again, common sense seems to be a rapidly diminishing commodity in our society these days...
I've never heard or read (and for that matter none of the long-time HF ops I know have either) anything about the practice of "zero-zero" tuning. Nonsense. Just another reason why there's a big knob on the front of the radio...
-N2OBY
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KB9TMP on December 20, 2006
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K4JF said:
"More proof that we do need to spend some time with the newcomers, and the newcomers need to learn that they don't know it all when they get that piece of paper."
I've been a ham now for just 8 years, and an Extra for 3 months and this is the first I've heard of this at all. I'm living proof of what K4JF said, because no one has showed me 'the way' it's done. Everything I know about HF I've learned at Field Day and by just listening & reading. I just assumed (yes I know what that makes me) that everyone went for the .ØØ. I've noticed that several use .5Ø and sometimes .25 or .75. I know my TS-450 is just a tick off frequency as compared to WWV but not enough to matter. I've been reminded of that by other operators at times. I've even been thinking of getting a new rig because of it hoping that the new one would be more stable. (I do PSK31 a lot)
Keep the thread going, I'm still learning!
73 & Merry Christmas de KB9TMP
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W7AIT on December 20, 2006
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Its lack of technical understand about the rig:
Errors in digital rigs include (think I got most of them):
1. VCO error
2. Readout error
3. Plus or Minus one whole number for the last digit of the readout display
4. Error in the LO in the rig
5. Stability errors in PPM
6. Power supply effects on 1-5
Add this for you own rig to these same errors at the other guys rig and you can be off hundreds of hz. The effect gets worse in a three way or net operations.
There is also calibration error. Even when a rig is calibrated at the factory using test equipment accurate out several place beyond the manufactures set points for these things, there still is error including:
1. WWV or NBS error of the test equipment
2. Test equipment primary and secondary standard errors
3. Error at WWV and NBS itself, the atomic clocks aren't perfect.
So guys there's a lot to this and stop bitching if a guy is a few hundred hz off. Use your dials.
Oh yes, crystals have errors too so even being channelized as in CB or 60 meters still has errors.
Go read your equipment manuals. If you did and understood what they mean, then you’d a) understand which manufacturer made better accuracy equipment and b) wouldn’t complain about these things because you’d understand the limits for your rig.
For further reading: Now try this with the other specs on your rig, sensitivity, bandwidth etc. You’ll be surprised. If more hams did this, understood what the specs mean, then they’d have a better understanding of which rig is better.
Note: Just because its DIGITAL display dosen't make it ACCURATE!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA9SVD on December 20, 2006
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"By WG7X on December 20, 2006
Dave, we're in for it now... This is the new Amateur radio. No VFO's any more, just a channel selector knob and a "clarifier"
-----------------
When they pry the VFO knob from my cold, dead hand...
Then again, there are some hams that are always a "little off."
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4SL on December 20, 2006
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What is this "SSB" stuff you guys are talking about and how does it relate to CW (the real ham radio).
Also, would a fan dipole help to match frequencies? I think so, I read it on the internet.
Ten-Four, Good Buddies!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KB9CRY on December 20, 2006
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have never tuned SSB stations that way. Have I missed something along the way?
I've been licensed since 1989 and I've never tuned stations this way.
I am the first to admit this is not a huge deal. That's why our transceivers have RIT on them but it's still kind of annoying to have to retune so many people.
Yes, and there's an added QRM benefit described below.
Where did this idea come from that HF ham radio only uses whole-number frequencies -- what amounts to the channelization of the bands?
Beats me, I've never heard of it.
Is this operating practice something from Citizens Band, channelized VHF FM or illegal operations below 10 meters?
I don't think that's the blame. In CB you just move the dial to the channel, there's no real tuning.
-- Just wondering -- and wondering what others think of this "new" way of SSB tuning.
The onus is on the station responding to the one calling CQ to get on their frequency. If the CQ calling station says for the responder to get on frequency, then it's their responsibility to move up or down. I'll use my RIT during a contest just to quicken things up, but I, as the CQer am "on frequency" and anyone not on that frequency is off frequency.
The reason for everyone to be on frequency is if you're lower or higher than I and we have a QSO, now our QSO is occupying a larger amount of bandwidth than if we both were on the same. This is being considerate of others wishing to share the spectrum and is in line with the FCC requirements.
Phil KB9CRY
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA9SVD on December 20, 2006
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by ALLENCB on December 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend! Quote: This kind of stupidity comes directly from the envrionment the new operators themselves come from: CB
Um. No. I am a new ham as of this spring (just a tech class though). I had no idea that you'd tune in that way. It makes sense, but I don't recall reading anything specific about doing that. Part of my ignorance is from having to learn this on my own. I only recently met another Ham in person and we haven't had time to do any work together. But I guess that just makes me a CBer.
Quote: More proof that we do need to spend some time with the newcomers, and the newcomers need to learn that they don't know it all when they get that piece of paper.
Exactly. I don't even know what I don't know. I do my best by reading and listening to others online.
Chris
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Chris,
First let me say, WELCOME to Amateur Radio! Yours is the right attitude. ASK questions here, and we will all be glad to help if we can. But the "BEST, GREATEST" way to learn Amateur Radio IS with a real live ELMER. I hope the local operator you have contacted will be able to give you some real, live help. It's the way many of us learned our way in the past. We need to pass that along to the newcomers. And not even the OF's are truly "know-it-alls." I doubt there's anyone out there who can't learn something new, or re-learn something old. There's no such thing as a "perfect" Amateur Radio Operator; (although some here on the forums DO come close, with their vast experience and good advice. You'll know them when you read their posts. they're here to help.)
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W9WHE-II on December 20, 2006
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With the inrush of Cbers, this is a refrain that we are likely to see more and more!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KC8VWM on December 20, 2006
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After chatting a few minutes and learning that he was new to HF, I told him he was way off my frequency. He replied that I was the one who was off frequency.
-----------------------------
If someone doesn't sound quite right, I simply tune into their voice and they do vice versa and that's the end of it.
No need to further analyze the situation beyond that fact. No one is ever going to be on the exact "right" frequency and no one is ever going to on the exact "wrong" frequency either.
This is just simply splitting hairs over a trivial and relatively unimportant matter.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KK9H on December 20, 2006
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I have always simply tuned for the most natural sounding voice and then enjoyed the QSO. If I need to later tweak the RIT a bit, then so be it. No big deal.
73, Don
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 20, 2006
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"With the inrush of Cbers, this is a refrain that we are likely to see more and more!"
No, Sir. Not if we tactfully and patiently explain to them why it is not the right way to do things.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 20, 2006
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"I have always simply tuned for the most natural sounding voice and then enjoyed the QSO. If I need to later tweak the RIT a bit, then so be it. No big deal.
73, Don"
Exactly right, Don.
VY 73, Jim
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K5SET on December 20, 2006
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I'm a new operator so to speak, I have been licensed only 10 years, but from day one I have heard amateurs stating that I was off frequency, my standard answer was and is, You Called Me, and I don't care what your VFO shows, if anyone is off frequency it's you! Tune to me! This is MY operating frequency..
73 K5SET, Bob
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N9XCR on December 20, 2006
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I learned how to use SSB in my CB days. I've operated a little sideband since upgrading to General, and never in my life would I have assumed you had to tune till the last two digits were zero-zero. I've always tuned until the voice sounded natural.
Then again, I also had a few friends that were amateurs helping me along the way. I guess the first thing I would tell new amateurs is to never assume anything. :)
Chris
N9XCR
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KI6LO on December 20, 2006
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I've been a 'victim' of this type of QSO. I had a guy on 20M a little while back almost get into a shouting frenzy about the fact that I was 200 hz off THE FREQUENCY and I should not be using a radio that was that far out of tune. He had this type of radio and that type of gear and he KNEW FOR A FACT exactly what his freq was and it was 100% correct because he constantly monitored it and checked it against some standard (WWV?). Funny this was like you said, he answered my CQ. I don't recall the exact frequency but it may have been due to the dumbass '0-0' metality you are discribing. I let him rant and rave for a moment and then politely signed and moved up the band to continue calling CQ. No one else that day had any problems with my transmit freq and I added quite a few enjoyable QSO's to the log.
IMHO this problem, along with others that will appear, is not directly due to the lesening of the requirements for obtaining a ticket but rather due to a compounding of the effects of this 'dumbing down' as alot of older hams like to call it. I don't really like that term cause that invokes hard feelings towards and from the newer crop of hams. The problem as I see it is someone learns a little about ham radio from an elmer or from the internet forums and then assumes that they have the entire picture. Then they feel that they are qualified to elmer others that come into the hobby and they pass along what they do know, no matter how skewed it may be. Sharing information and elmering has been a cornerstone of the amateur fraternity since times of old but bad information is sometimes worse that no information.
Don't get me wrong. I, like the author, have only been in this game a short 31 years and I learn stuff all the time. However having said that, I do have some direct knowledge of the 'old stuff' that seems to be getting left behind or distorted as the newer hams come into the hobby. For example one of my pet peeves, call it oldfart-itis or whatever, is the use of phonetics with voice comms. I'm sorry but some of the stuff being used for phonetics actually makes the message more confusing than clearer. I try to pass on standard military style phonetics to anyone I elmer. These being like Alpha, Baker, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, etc, etc. not Atlanta, Bigdog, Cowboy, Dopey, etc, etc. Yes this is an exageration but I think you get the point. Recently I heard a newbie give the suffix to their call (BBB) as Big Ball Bouncher. Cute but not good.
I don't think it requires decades of experience and an Extra class license to be a good elmer but I do think that it helps. Even without an elmer, by becoming an expert on one's station and equipment you help yourself to becoming a good operator, on any band. If you can't use the equipment properly, then your going to be lacking in your abilities. For the newer hams just starting out, I recommend that you look past the 'shack-on-the-belt' mentality and explore all facets of amateur radio. That doesn't mean you have to rush out and drop thou$and$ of dollars on gear and antennas but rather read up on the modes and propogation for different bands, HF,6M and higher. Seek out a local ham who has a EME station and ask him to demonstrate it for you. Most will be more than happy to do so. 6M is a very nice band to wet your whistle on towards HF. It has some characteristics of HF and requires a much smaller antenna than say 20M. It may not be worldwide as much as 20M but when it's open, like the old slogan, a little goes a long way on 6M.
Most of all, everyone should welcome the new hams into the brotherhood of ham radio and help them achieve the best they can.
Gene KI6LO Out.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W5CPT on December 20, 2006
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I'm one who never really bothered to check if I was on the 000s. I guess it comes from my first HF radio, a Kenwood TS-520. It had the big dial and if I got close enough that: A- I understood you and B- You answered me, I was close enough. My present rig, an Icom IC-756 (non-Pro) will display the frequency down to the hertz (or cycle if you prefer) and is dead on using Time Signal on 10 & 15 MHz and a sound card program called CW-Get to measure the 500 & 600 Hz tones.
As an aside, I just heard a guy call another and after tuning him in, his Frequency was 21.307.483 .
Feel free to call me on any frequency even if it isn't all zeros on the end.
Clint - W5CPT
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W6OPO on December 20, 2006
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For an operator answering my CQ to tell me I'm off frequency is just plain rude.
In nets the NCS may be off the normally used frequency. But the NCS is ALWAYS "on frequency" - member operators are to tune to him.
Bob - W6OPO
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WI7B on December 20, 2006
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If Ops in two-way communication are not on the same frequency that is poor operating practice and a waste of spectral bandwidth.
Except for 60 meters, we're not channelized by law, tradition, nor sentiment. We may tune in our bands and transmit anywhere allowed for our emission type...even 3.6062 MHz SSB!
If you answer a station on 3.6062 MHz, best operating practice dictates you be on their calling frequency unless they are working splits.
That concept is known as "syntonic radio amateur communication." The use of "syntonic commas", as described in this article, for radio amateur communication should be avoided. they should be limited to musical applications only. Remember, even a single syntonic comma is equal to 21.51 cents. That's not too severe on 160m, but death to QSOs on 20m.
73,
---* Ken
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 20, 2006
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After reading this article I was laughing so hard my sides hurt. Being a ham for 30+ years, I have never run into anyone that called me and said "You're off frequency" and I it was almost implausible to believe it happened...
then I read this...
K0CBA wrote:
"I guess the only down side to working .3 or .5 or what ever, is that it makes for more splatter to and from the point zero zero stations just above and below you. So if that's the goal, then operating "plop 'n' squawk" will render the most success.
I am a bit confused however as most old timers tend to castigate newer ops for not 'doing as the Romans do' and like it or not, now a days the Romans seem to use point zero."
Now my sides are splitting!!!
Chris (ALLENCB) confirmed there are new guys that don't really know how to tune, but at least he claimed he really didn't know any better! I am glad we have guys like him coming into ham radio as he shows an honest interest in "learning the ropes", but lord knows with the FCC completing the "dumbing down" of Amateur Radio, we are going to have a whole lot more K0CBA's to contend with!!!
David ~ KY1V
"Now, where's my channel? Oh yeah, 14.193.67"
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WI7B on December 20, 2006
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Syntony! Syntony, people! Many early radio pioneers worked so hard to achieve it. At least we can apply it today.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KB9TMP on December 20, 2006
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W5CPT said:
"My present rig, an Icom IC-756 (non-Pro) will display the frequency down to the hertz (or cycle if you prefer) and is dead on using Time Signal on 10 & 15 MHz and a sound card program called CW-Get to measure the 500 & 600 Hz tones."
I just did that here with my rig and it shows I'm dead on also. I've already learned 2 NEW things just from this thread alone!
THANKS!
73 & Merry Christmas de KB9TMP
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AI2IA on December 20, 2006
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Thanks, Dave, for an interesting article. In all of my many QSOs this issue come up only once while mobile on 2 meters FM simplex! The other ham became insistant from the beginning that I was seriously off frequency and that there was something wrong with my rig, and that I better not use it anymore until I had it repaired. At first I thought it was a joke, but the guy became so argumentative and threatening that I had to QSY. As it turned out, there was absolutely nothing wrong with my rig after I spent time with my buddies thoroughly checking it out. This remains one of my strangest QSOs, but not one I would care to repeat.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WI7B on December 20, 2006
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And how many od us have a TXCO installed in our rig to make sure our measurements are not only accurate, but precise and repeatble?
And how many took part in the ARRL's FMT this past November?
Syntony is the key. Harmonicity should be filtered.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W1XZ on December 20, 2006
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If you can't operate on the same frequency or if you can't program an HT what are you doing on amateur radio? What ever happened to common sense? I am beginning to agree with those who think the newbies are a bunch of "gimmies". If someone answers you on a slightly different frequency can't you just ask them if their RIT is on or their underwear is too tight?
Jeez...I hope the missus gives me a store bought dipole for Christmas, and then gets someone to put it up for me, and then hooks it up so I can operate on HF and get on frequency.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KE7AKS on December 20, 2006
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Well my IC 751A is a bit low on its read out, and I know it by looking at the wwv standard. I usually just adjust my BIG KNOB untill everybody likes me, but on rare occasions I have been known to use RIT and XIT (Transmit Incremental Tuning) to slide through the cracks for some fussy bird watcher type person. If I call CQ on a freq that is not a national calling frequency, and I sound like Donald Duck at the point zero mark, then you can turn your BIG KNOB, or RIT and XIT and TUNE ME IN....
I don't play radio in the band range where a little drift could likely have me in an illegal territory.
It would be nice to have a read out and radio that is so perfect that a freq standard would make a nice circle on the oscope when one diled up then transmitted, but most of us have no access to that kind of equipment.
73
KE7AKS Harv
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K2PI on December 20, 2006
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I guess it's up to us to disabuse these new hams of this ridiculous notion. In 31 years on the radio, this is the first time I've ever heard of this practice on SSB. What a waste of space.
73,
K2PI
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K8MHZ on December 20, 2006
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If someone tells me I am off frequency I try my best to tune my transmit where they like it. Once achieved, I use my RIT to make them sound the way I like them to. So far, so good and it gives me a chance to play radio a little more. That is on my Icom 735. On the Swan I just *try* to tune where they want and put up with the resultant sound. (You kind of have to continually 'steer' the old Swan 350's)
I like operating a radio as much as I do talking on them.
Your mileage may vary.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4ABA on December 20, 2006
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Had a station mention something similar answering my CQ on 17m. He was not a new ham, either (Extra). My comment was that my Drake R4B/T4XB showed that I was in the 17m band, and in the SSB portion.....so, I was indeed "On Frequency!" We did have a good chuckle about it later.
Cheers;
Andrew N4ABA
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W3OZ on December 20, 2006
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I started as a Novice in 1958 and never in CW, AM or SSB have I ever been told or ever told anyone that it was OK to answer a CQ any other way other than on as close as possible to the CQers frequency. To do otherwise is just plain rude, and to tell someone who was CQing THEY are OFF frequency is stupid.
I have 3 almost new rigs in my shack from 2 different manufactures and at .000 they are not on the same frequency as delivered from the factory. How you listen, the equipment you listen with, band conditions, pass band of the receiver, the age of your ears, are just of few of the factors going into what you think is the frequency.
Unless you are doing some technical audio work or doing recordings for playback where you want it to be as truthful and honest as possible, being on the exact frequency is not that important as long as you can hear and understand each other. Oh, and by the way, CW ops are not exempt from being off frequency in my experience.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by HA5RXZ on December 20, 2006
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Many years ago I was told that my 2m rig was off frequency. The amateur who told me this, G8GTP, was an ex-British Telecom engineer. His shack was referred to by the local amateurs as "The Whitefield Physical Laboratory" because of the standard to which he worked. Perfect was just about good enough for Mike.
I got my rig fixed.
Unless I know that the amateur at the other end is working to G8GTP's standards I'm not going to believe him.
HA5RXZ
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WI7B on December 20, 2006
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So, that is really the question, perception? For example, what is on-frequency to you and me, is not for a ham in Texas?
If we allow the syntonic comma (also known as the comma of Didymus or Ptolemaic comma) to intervene
in our frequency selection that represents the difference between four justly tuned perfect fifths, and two octaves plus a justly tuned major third!
A just perfect fifth has its notes in the frequency ratio 3:2, which is equal to 701.955 cents, and four of them are equal to 2807.82 cents. A just major third has its notes in the frequency ratio 5:4, which is equal to 386.31 cents, and one of them plus two octaves is equal to 2786.31 cents. The difference between these is 21.51 cents or a syntonic comma. And that's something you can perceive!
Just trying add clarity where none is need.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W4LGH on December 20, 2006
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Oh boy...this has touched a nerve! Its a NEW world out there on the airwaves these days! Anyone with any common sense would tune as close as possible to the person calling CQ. Just standard "Gentlemans Code" to do so. I guess this is part of the problem the new guys do NOT know the "Gentleman's Code" and there really isn't much written about it...It just always been there, and after being in the hobby a while, we learned it and tried to live by it. Now is it their fault that they do not know this? Well this can be a YES or No answer, seriously! In their defense (the new hams) not being exposed, I could answer this as a NO, its not their fault, we need to try and elmer them. Now what about the "YES" answer. This is a completely different story, and do NOT apply to everyone. However we are now living in a generation of "Entitlement" and these people really think they are entitled and don't have to listen to anyone's advise. We have ALL run across them, and there will be a lot more. They are taking over everything!!
I can also see this 0.00 thing coming about, just like their antennas have to be 1:1 swr or they can't transmit. Its an assumed thing, and we all know what happens when it is ASS-U-ME-D!!
That's my 2 cents worth, as I see it. I know the new guys really get tired of hearing.."Thats not the way it used to be." But I surely liked it better the old way, when people were more curtious, friendly, ready to offer up advise, or come over and have an antenna raising party...they didn't tune up over top of you or throw carriers over QSO's or NETS, and use foul language! It sure was a lot nicer then.
73 and Merry Christmas!
de W4LGH - Alan
www.w4lgh.com
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K9OHI on December 20, 2006
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WI7B,
Ken, you're a scream. Keep up the bloviation deflation.
73 de Tom
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W0FM on December 20, 2006
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I have not heard this procedure either, but I have a theory on how it might have come about.
I suspect it may have started by someone attempting to explain to a rookie that you should "zero-beat" the other station and the rookie didn't understand exactly what that meant. Hmmm...."zero-beat"? That's zero-zero on the dial, right?
More explanation was necessary.
73,
Terry, WØFM
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WI7B on December 20, 2006
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Yes, and no one has yet ask me in mid-QSO...
"What's the frequency, Kenneth?"
But as we know, transmission of music on the amateur bands is prohibited. Unless, of course, its origin is extraterrestial (Title 47, Part 97.113e).
Perhaps CBS News anchor Dan Rather is the source of the off-frequency confusion. One night in October 1986, Rather was walking down a Manhattan street when he was punched from behind and thrown to the ground. His assailant kicked and beat him while repeating, "Kenneth, what is the frequency?"
Rather himself couldn't shed any light on the subject. He explained:
"I got mugged. Who understands these things? I didn't and I don't now. I didn't make a lot of it at the time and I don't now. I wish I knew who did it and why, but I have no idea.
The attack inspired the 1994 R.E.M. hit "What's the Frequency, Kenneth."
In 1997, Rather's attacker was identified as William Tager. According to a psychiatrist, Tager, who was currently serving time for killing an NBC stagehand, blamed news media for beaming signals into his head, and thought if he could just find out the correct frequency, he could block those signals that were constantly assailing him.
So there!
Happy Holidays,
---* Ken
·
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KC2IJI on December 20, 2006
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I've had this conversation.
Except for 60m, in the majority of cases you are not "off frequency" in normal hamming. I just tune the VFO to a natural sound and get on with the QSO. Some guys obsess about this.
Probably the same guys who need a signal report while using 100w two miles from the repeater.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N6AJR on December 20, 2006
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When I call CQ , you match me. I amd running and you are search and pounce.
When you call CQ, I tune to your frequency, you are running and I am S&P.
Why bother to look at the dial other than to be sure you are in side your band edges.
Just turn the big knob till they sound "normal"
Old Folks with lousy hearing will often be some what off freq, ( me for example) because my hearing is so bad I can't hear the nuances any more.
I have more problem tuning in a womans voice on the air.
(and finally)
If you are on SSB, you are SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE A DUCK!!
On cw same rules but match tone with Spot button.
Who care if it ends in 00.. do one contest and you will stop with that silly habit.
73 and Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to all
Now go build a fan dipole and get on the air.
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how to find an elmer
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by N6AJR on December 20, 2006
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go to ARRL.ORG and in the upper left click on exams, type in your zip code and hit enter. this will bring up a list of ham tests in your local area. most of these are sponsered by a ham club. they all have a contact person and phone number. call and ask about the next meeting, for an elmer , how do I ....
some one will take you under their wing. Please gice it a shot, and also try to learn the code (CW) its a great moder (G4FON.net is a good site) and you can do ham radio for your entire life. it is a good service to be in.
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RE: how to find an elmer
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by KX8N on December 20, 2006
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"I just tune the VFO to a natural sound and get on with the QSO. Some guys obsess about this."
What's bad though is when you hear a roundtable of say six people going, and no two people are on the same frequency.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4KC on December 20, 2006
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Good story, Ken. Reminds me of the lady who contacted the broadcast station where I worked and said she was going to sue us because the station had messed up her ovaries. Maybe someone there had, but it had nothing to do with RFI!
Dave, you obviously struck a cord or two here. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but I think I could calmly, politely, and rationally tell someone who told me I was "off frequency" how it really was and attempt to enlighten him or her. I'd do the same with anyone who did something I felt was not correct or a good operating practice. Emphasis on "politely" and "calmly," in the spirit of teaching.
I've never heard of this being a problem on CW, where the xmit off-set could really cause confusion. Has anyone else?
73,
Don N4KC
www.donkeith.com
PS: Enjoyed working you during the "bandwarming" on 75/80 Friday morning, Dave.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4UDT on December 20, 2006
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Tune until the voice sounds natural...What a concept.
Since the newest rig I own was built in 1976 (Swan 700CX) that's all I've ever done. Even after I added AADE Digital Readouts I found that the freq wasn't always where I expected it to be: .00, .50, .75, etc.
Tune until the voice sounds natural - It works and it's close enough for Rock & Roll.
Aubrey/K4UDT
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by THERAGE on December 20, 2006
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"But now some newer hams are tuning to specific frequencies -- often whole numbers ending in zero -- and not tuning SSB so that it just sounds natural."
Wait till all the "no codes" get their general and extra tickets. let the fun begin!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N6AJR on December 20, 2006
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I always refered to the 3 I owned over the years as "Swan Three-Driftys""
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AE6RO on December 20, 2006
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I tried to get in on that ARRL Frequency measurement test but there was a QSO on the frequency at the time.
AE6RO O'John Happy Hoolidays
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W5AH on December 20, 2006
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Perhaps the whole problem is that the true meaning of "zero beat" has been lost
Bob, W5AH
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KE4CXP on December 20, 2006
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This is a good article David. It just amazes me that no matter how good and thoughtful an article is there are always some Hams who want to make every thing about The No Code Techs and Morse code.
Like this supposed ham called THERAGE, just some non-ham blowhard trying to stir up trouble. As a NCT I have operated SSB on 6 and 2 meters and have also worked SSB on Field day with a control operator with me who always stressed to tune to a natural sounding voice.
So let’s discuses the merits of the article and not bash NCT’s or new operators. I am glad the when I first started into Ham radio I had some really good Elmer’s and always found OM’s on the air who were willing to teach.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AA8LL on December 20, 2006
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Everything is relative. When I was a novice in 1963, I had to use a crystal for my transmit frequency. Crystals cost $5 each and I had one for 40-cw and one for 2-meter am. You had to tune the whole band when you called CQ! Now when I call CQ, I can usually hear the calling station with only a slight tuning required. I like it.
73,
Wade
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W7ETA on December 20, 2006
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Thanks for a well written article that actually has a point--great prose.
When I first saw the listing for this article, I had anticipated another non-sense article. I looked up the call sign before reading anything.
My first reaction was "Holly Guano Batman! An article by an extra class with years of experience covering a wide variety of ham radio."
I have hearing loss in both ears. Turns out both ears slope away from 1 Kc. When I tune people in, I'm always a little off their frequency, even on CW. Can't say it has ever been a problem on any nets. It only really surfaced when I used to regularly chat with hams I knew in person. They would wind up tuning me in, and I'd use my RIT, or someone would ask me to move up or down a little, and I'd use my RIT.
Can't say I've ever herd of "zero-zero" tuning, or would ever use it.
The concept gives me a chuckle, especially when I remember hams used to send if they were tuning up or down from their xmit.
Next time I order an xtal, I'll have to specify "zero-zero", even for the 2nd and 3rd harmonics.
After I'd heard a few brand name audio equalizes on the air, I stopped telling hams their audio was distorted. I've stopped asking people to turn off their processors. I ignore people with, way over S-9 signals, telling me I'm splaaattttering them, ignore people who don't like my choice of phenetics, will politely tell someone, complaining that I'm on a DX frequency, when I'm chatting with a DX station, that I am chatting with a DX station he can't hear; never answer the question "Who is the DX?!", never tell ops the DX is listening "UP!!!!", won't talk to non-hams on a ham band, rarely chat with anyone in "THE DXwindow", and will ignore anyone answering my rare CQs telling me I'm off frequency.
Furthermore, I promise never to use a recording containing the following: CQ DX, checking propagation, CQ DX
During the Holiday Season, my Very Best-es of My Best Wishes :-)
Bob
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N1XBP on December 20, 2006
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I used to just tune my old TS-520S until they sounded right, and then turn the disk that indicated frequency just a touch until it lined up on a mark (which doesn't change the frequency at all.) The disk used to stick and get moved around, and was fairly useless unless I lined it back up with WWV.. and even then it was a fairly questionable reference.
How does that fit into the tune it till it sounds right/tune it to an even number debate? hi hi
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KC2WI on December 20, 2006
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This boils down to 2 things:
1) Common sense and standard operating practice: The responding station tunes as precisely as possible to the CQ'ing station's frequency. In a net, all stations tune to the net control's frequency.
2) Basic high school math/science: There is a difference between precision and accuracy. Just because you can read a scale (or readout) down to a very fine increment (precision) doesn't mean that the measurement is correct (accurate).
By the way, I don't think pseudo-channelized operation on the HF bands would be such a bad thing. If we all stuck to 3KHz increments on SSB and all used the minimum good communications bandwidth I'll bet there would be just as much effective space and a lot less interference. Picture a parking lot. One car (even if small) parked crooked or in the middle of 2 spots reduced the total space available. A few cars parked off center here and there can significantly screw up the whole row. The only difference with radio signals is they can physically occupy the same space or overlap, but it isn't very effective due to the resulting QRM.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by NL7W on December 20, 2006
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Anyone 200-Hz off a 1-KHz increment should go to radio prison!
Merry Christmas to all... and extra stocking goodies to those who can "zero beat".
73.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W8WZ on December 20, 2006
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Tuning to the closest freq ending in 0 instead of to the freq of the station you want to communicate with is just plain stupid.
I run older gear without digital readouts, so I dont pay attention to my exact freq. when calling CQ. I just make sure I'm in band and the freq is not in use.
When answering another station - I tune to their freq.
Simple.
Only exception - When I'm running a rock bound Xmtr - then obviously, I'm stuck there.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N9DG on December 20, 2006
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When I tune around on the HF bands I notice that a very large percentage of the QSO are indeed on the even 1 or .5 KHz. And my tuning by ear also agrees. One really nice thing about it is that I can set my radio to tune in a somewhat coarse size step of .5 KHz and have it be right on about 80% of the time as I tune across the band. For the other 20% I adjust accordingly no big deal.
I've also found that most radios made in the last 15 or so years are mostly in agreement with what the "double zero" frequency actually is. But then there are also the few that aren't happy unless they are tuned to the very last Hz by *their* ear, oh well.
In the end I think that the even 1 or .5 kHz thing has just become a 'normal' convention of practice. I wouldn't try to read anything more into to it than that.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KE6PID on December 20, 2006
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Just be certain when you tune for the most naural voice *YOUR RIG's* RIT is off. I also have seen (and own) a rig that transmits slightly lower in frequency than the RX frequency.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 20, 2006
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"Anyone 200-Hz off a 1-KHz increment should go to radio prison! "
No, because there are no 1 khz increments in ham radio. We are authorized ANY frequency within the bands. Any frequency within the band (and authorized sub-band) is just as valid as any other.
The above poster said it right - the only time you need to look at your frequency readout is to make sure you are within the band (and to find specific nets or calling frequencies).
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by NU0R on December 20, 2006
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Bull Butter!!!! Been on SSB 30 years now and never heard such ignorance of operating practice. Do me a favor you zero-zero freaks and if you reply to my cq and complain of me being off freq. just Qsy away cause we don't have anything to talk about! Learn about conventional operating practice before you try to erase about 50 years of successfull operating technique. Read your FCC manuals and show me where they teach you to zero-zero!!! The one exception is if I am drifting in freq. That being the case, tell me, cause I need to fix my rig. With anything made in the last 20 years drift is not likely so don't rely too much on that excuse. Just fit in, and forget trying to reinvent the wheel. Smarter people than you and I have traveled this road before us and prepared a system that works--let it be!!! Bruce
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KX8N on December 20, 2006
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"Tuning to the closest freq ending in 0 instead of to the freq of the station you want to communicate with is just plain stupid."
That's true, and probably only 0.1% of hams actually do it. I've never heard of it, so I don't see why it's such a big deal, especially when all it involves is turning a knob. It's not like you have to go outside, get on a ladder, and trim a dipole to talk to guys like this... just turn the knob a little. Or are we getting so lazy that we can't even do that?
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by THERAGE on December 20, 2006
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"Like this supposed ham called THERAGE, just some non-ham blowhard trying to stir up trouble."
And if you ever owned the likes of a TenTec 555 you'd know what the hell some of these seasoned hams were talking about.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 20, 2006
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To all amateurs new and old, let's be joyous and sing together...
Sung to Jingle Bells (Dashing through the snow)
I watch my radio glow
Try to hear what people say
As I tune my VFO
The zero zero way
I can’t hear a single thing
But everything feels so right
As I tune my VFO
Both zeros are in sight
Your off freq, Your off freq
Your off freq I say
Won’t you please, learn to tune
The zero zero way!
Sung to Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer
Rudolph the brand new Amateur
Couldn’t tune his VFO
And if he ever called you
It would only be on zero
All of the other ham ops
Refused to move their VFO
They never let poor Rudolph
Join in any QSO’s
Then one foggy contest eve
The DX came to say
Rudolph is your knob too tight
Won’t you learn to tune it right
Then all the Amateurs loved him
As he tuned them perfectly
Rudolph the brand new Amateur
You’ll go down in history!
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 20, 2006
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What the heck, I couldn't resist.
Let's sing along once more...
Sung to Frosty the snowman
Crusty the new ham, was a new member of the team
With a brand new rig, and a VFO, and two zeros on the screen
Crusty the new ham, is a fairytale they say.
He was pure CB, but the FCC, knew he’d be a ham someday.
Oh, Crusty the new ham, was alive and off CB;
And the FCC, said he could laugh and play,
Just the same as you and me!
;)
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KU2US on December 20, 2006
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SORRY, The frequency that the station YOU are answering because of a CQ IS THE FREQUENCY. You tune to His (or Her) frequency. No "00" or any other stuff. If the Cq'er is on 14201.3 THATS the frequency. If you are NOT on that frequency, Then YOU are OFF frequency. What in the heck is so hard to understand? You tune in to that frequency, use the +/- offset if needed, to make the voice as natural as you can, and talk! WHEW!! I cant believe this. Some people are setting new STUPID standards all over again. When someone tells me I am off frequency, and I hold the frequency, I tell them to tune to my voice or QRX. This is not an "Old Fart Thing". Its the right way and always will be.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4SL on December 20, 2006
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Tuning to an even 5KHz is common practice on 6,2,70cm but I've never heard it on HF... probably because the only time I work SSB is the SSB Sweepstakes and Field Day if absolutely forced.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KX8N on December 20, 2006
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"And if you ever owned the likes of a TenTec 555 you'd know what the hell some of these seasoned hams were talking about. "
And if you gave a callsign, someone might take what you have to say seriously. Until then, you're just a joke.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WB6VIC on December 20, 2006
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when he tells you you're off freq, excuse yourself, tell him you will QRT to re-calibrate your rig, and then begin calling CQ, again. don't answer him though; maybe you'll find someone smarter to talk to!
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by SM5JAB on December 21, 2006
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Some (all?) modern rigs allow the VFO to increment in steps of 0.1, 1kHz etc. For SSB it is much faster to scan an entire band with a larger step. I have found one or two "zero-zero ops" during the years. When I used their rigs I always set them for 100 Hz steps or less - or I can't tune in on stations.
My TS930 happily increments in 10 Hz steps. Which is close to no steps. My HW8 tunes everywhere.
Of course there are no channels on our HF-bands. What a silly thought. Being able to tune everywhere is one of the delights when trying to capture a distant CW DX-station. ...or erhaps I'm just an OF?
/Micke
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W5ONV on December 21, 2006
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It seems very simple to me . I have never had a problem with being on or off frequency. That is what they invented RIT for. It is so simple to learn if you just learn how to operate you rig.
Merry Christmas, 73, Jim
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 21, 2006
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"Of course there are no channels on our HF-bands. What a silly thought. Being able to tune everywhere is one of the delights when trying to capture a distant DX-station...."
EXACTLY right! Extra stocking stuffers for you! (Even though I got less for the same idea...)
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N2HBX on December 21, 2006
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If I am NCS, you tune to my frequency.
If I call CQ and you want to respond, you tune to my frequency.
If you call CQ and I want to respond, I tune to your frequency.
Why the hell is this so hard to understand?
73,
Larry, N2HBX
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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"Where did this idea come from that HF ham radio only uses whole-number frequencies -- what amounts to the channelization of the bands? Is this operating practice something from Citizens Band, channelized VHF FM or illegal operations below 10 meters?"
Might have something to do with VHF, but I doubt it.
People like round numbers. New hams have never used a rig without small steps. That's really it. I hear all sorts of non-zero-beat CW signals too, probably for the same reason.
I usually set up on a .00 frequency when I call CQ. There's no particularly good reason. It's just what I've done since I've been on HF, but I'm a newbie in the context of rigs that don't show better than 1kHz steps; I've been a ham for about 12 years.
73,
Dan
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W4LGH on December 21, 2006
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On Christmas Eve Day let's all tune to 14.271.23 and get a roundtable QSO going...That'll drive 'em CRAZY!
Wonder what they say to operators who are running SPLIT!!! CQ CQ CQ on 14.188 ,listening up 5Kc.
Oh well I can understand how this may have happened with the ZERO-BEAT thing, but I still think it is coming from this new generation of ham who thinks his SWR has to be ZERO, so why shouldn't his frequency? I sit back and do a lot of listening, and it is amazing what kind of amusing tales you hear. Particually about antennas/feed line and antenna theory! And when you go back to then and try to help, they think you are being an ass. So I have given up, unless they ask for help, then i will be right there.
BTW, the Xmas songs were cute, but both Rudolf and Frosty have had their license suspended, for deliberate interfearence to local 2m repeaters.
73 & Merry Christmas!
de W4LGH - Alan
www.w4lgh.com
PS, if you like to receive my "Special Limited Edition" Christmas Card via email, just drop me a note! Its the Best of Holiday Wishes.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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"Particually about antennas/feed line and antenna theory!"
I blame that on the internet. I suppose it used to be that you'd go ask a real Elmer for antenna help. Now you google "HF antenna" and you turn up a bunch of pages where people think their shorty-dummy-load is the best thing since sliced bread because it fits on their lot and lets them work EA3 on 20 meters.
I don't blame the "zero SWR" thing on the current generation of hams. I blame it on the generation who learned the hard way that solid state finals were more fragile in the face of elevated SWR than tubes were. I blame it on incomplete transmission of this information from ham to ham: "high SWR will ruin your finals!"
Well if high is bad, zero is best, right? We should tell new hams that operating a certain power into an impedance other than fifty ohms must increase either the voltage on or the current through the final transistors, and that transistors don't fail gracefully with too much of either. We should explain to them that rigs incorporate circuitry to reduce power into loads with elevated SWR. We should tell them why a fifty ohm load exhibits a 1:1 SWR. It's not obvious. You have ZERO reflected power. Maybe SWR stands for "Stuff Which is Reflected"
But where do we do it? It can't be the exams. Technical details don't stick with you when you're just learning them to pass an exam. Millions of people who no longer know the math they took in high school or college can attest to that.
No one knows this stuff from the start. It's not stupidity, it's misinformation, and just poking around the internet and talking to other hams on your local 2m repeater might not clear it up, because misinformation is rampant. Antenna manufacturers don't help, with their claims of gain on all bands and great performance in a small package.
- - - - - -
Here's all you ever need to know about antennas:
Make lots of RF current flow in an extended, low-loss conductor and keep that conductor away from lossy objects, preferably by putting it up high or coating nearby lossy objects (the earth) with copper. Adjust the phase between currents in various nearby conductors to focus your RF radiation in a desired direction.
Done and done. There are lots of reasons why the hobby is in trouble technically. "New hams" aren't one of them.
Dan
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA2JJH on December 21, 2006
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)Your HI-FI-SSB and I am using a 1.8khz filter
2)Your using a mil.rig that only gooes down to the 100hz 0f hertz.
3)The obviouse....RIT&XIT are off set.
4)You have a serious problem with your DDS VFO.
5)A person thinks they OWN a frequency! So, its more like....get off my frequency.
6)Your TX chain has an EQ problem.
7)I have noticed people forgot how to use a RIT control.
8)Your using a CB power mic on the rig.
9)Homebrew rig
10)Your using the infamouse EICO-753. If that is the case...you are off frequency!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N1XBP on December 21, 2006
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>>Wonder what they say to operators who are running SPLIT!!! CQ CQ CQ on 14.188 ,listening up 5Kc.
Well, if you really want to confuse them, tune to some non zero-zero freq, run split by ~2.2Khz, and use the opposite side band on one of the VFOs adjusted so that the center frequency remains the same..
I wonder if that counts as a scrambled/coded signal? hihi
Or, better yet.. Tell anyone who says your off frequency that you are just getting doppler shifted by the Earth's rotation.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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"It's not stupidity, it's misinformation, and just poking around the internet and talking to other hams on your local 2m repeater might not clear it up, because misinformation is rampant."
And there I go proving my own point. I go and try to make a blanket statement about a technical aspect of ham radio and I get it all wrong, and believably so. What I said about antennas is ONLY true of transmitting antennas, and not true of antennas that are solely for receiving.
I'll turn in my "real ham" card now, because I didn't know everything about the hobby from day one.
Dan
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4PF on December 21, 2006
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We are NOT a commercial service! The amateur service is not expected to be precise, but it is expected to conform to the rules/regs, meaning we shall operate within the proper bands/subbands. That being said, I agree with whomever said the CB influence is the cause of this idiocy. It goes against all common sense to try to communicate with another station on a frequency on which he is not expecting to hear you. Call it whatever you want, but it makes no sense to call anyone off-frequency; and yes, the originating station is the frequency standard for that QSO.
The best way to counter this problem is to ignore off-frequency responses, (which would naturally be covered up by on-frequency responses).
73,
Mike, N4PF
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W6TH on December 21, 2006
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.
This post and you "Single Side Whiners" have made my day. No wonder I have been on CW for the past 68 years.
W6TH, the non vanity call.
.:
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KB1OAN on December 21, 2006
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Hello all:
As one standing on the sidelines I have to make an observation. I am going to deviate from the thread just a little to make a point. I was granted my Tech ticket on October 19th, 2006, I can't tell you how excited I was. I felt that the test was not that hard, but I learned the answers to the question pool with full understanding instead of just memory of the correct answer. That, I feel is human nature. In the 1970's it was the CB that brought attention to my facination with radio. I think most of us know that (but God forbid disclose) that it was the CB that caught our attention. I became bored with it and moved on.
Here is the deviation: I am a Freemason and Shriner in the State of Rhode Island. As you all may know the numbers of Freemason and Shriners under the age of 60 is droping almost every year. Here is the point: Freemasons for about six years now have been seeking out new members instead of the candidate seeking out the Freemasons. They are afraide that due to lack of interest the younger or new set are not interested in joining. Well, I was made a Master Mason in 2001 and was also vey proud, however, as I went to meetings the topic was alaways at some point or another leading to the older Masons complaining about the New Masons and how we did not work as hard as they did to earn the degree. Do you all see where I am going here?
As I read the previous posts, I find myself upset at the overall tone of the older Hams. Stop blaming the CB crowd. It's silly and you know it. I am also not that eager at this point to advance if this is the overall tone on HF. Check your tone not just your frequency.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AE6RO on December 21, 2006
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N3OX: Huh. I just got done answering your Forum question about an an inverted V dipole in your attic. Now here you seem to know a great deal about antennas, enough to answer your own question.
What's that about? AE6RO
Oh, I've got it. It was your Evil Twin.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AB0WR on December 21, 2006
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KB1OAN:
I am reminded of the old joke: A man says to the doctor -- It hurts when I do this. And the doctor replies -- Well, don't do that!
If the posts on here upset you then I am pretty sure the doctor will tell you: Well, don't read them!
Rather than play at being Mommy-censor, why don't you just move to a different thread that is more suited to your delicate sensibilities?
tim ab0wr
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4PF on December 21, 2006
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W6TH: I have been a CW-only operator since 1969, when I was first licensed. In recent years, I have fooled around with SSB a bit, and although I don't like it as much as CW, I have found I have a pretty good signal and can break through the DX pileups when necessary on SSB.
You don't have to operate ssb to know that if it ain't on frequency, it ain't right. Anyone who thinks differently is illogical.
73, OM! Or should I say " dit dit!"
Mike, N4PF (The OTHER non-vanity call!).
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N2OBY on December 21, 2006
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<<Just trying add clarity where none is need.
73,
---* Ken>>
Clarity, huh? Well thanks for clearing that up for me old man!
I'm pretty sure we agree, but I'm not sure how...
;-)
73,
Ken N2OBY
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KB1OAN on December 21, 2006
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AB0WR
OUCH !!
That Hurt, But.......Thank You, you proved my point !
Bitter are we ?
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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"N3OX: Huh. I just got done answering your Forum question about an an inverted V dipole in your attic. Now here you seem to know a great deal about antennas, enough to answer your own question.
What's that about? AE6RO "
AE6RO, see those little "'s around the above text? Check out their "evil twins" over in that Elmers post you're talking about.
I don't even HAVE an attic. That's OK, VE6 over there didn't seem too keen on my answer to HIS question either. I think I'm going to give up posting on eHam as a new year's resolution. Rarely any good comes of it.
73,
Dan
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N0AH on December 21, 2006
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One of the many skills of a more advanced experienced operator is to use their RIT control. Many stations around the world do not have perfect radios......same here in the USA. Some of us just have a preference for listening higher or lower then where WE are transmitting.
To make this into a new ham vs old ham argument is a waste. Choose your battles better or we are all going to get bored fast- With all of these new changes, we have a lot to argue about besides this-
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W5HTW on December 21, 2006
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Come on guys! These "zero zero" folks are ahead of their time! When "The New Amateur/CB Radio" arrives (very shortly) we OFs will all have to learn channelized wadidio.
Ok, that's satire, sort of. But are we actually heading to channelized HF? I'm listening on my Drake R4B right now on 14300.326 USB. Well, somewhere close, anyway.
Gonna get me another DX100 and SX28 and get on 7203.645 one of these days.
Actually have been told only once in over 50 years that I was off frequency. That was on a net, and I was using the Drakes. But before I could even check, someone else informed that fella that he was off frequency. So I didn't touch anything and went on with the net.
I think, though, that 27.185.000 is even more than a 'zero zero' freq. It is a 'zero zero zero' freq, and it is the "Amateur Radio Training Academy."
Ed
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA9SVD on December 21, 2006
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Exactly. And THAT is because it's a SHARED frequency allocation, and NTIA required channelized operations, or none at all. Amateurs ARE the secondary users, meaning government users are FIRST and FOREMOST the users of the 60 M band, if/or when they choose or desire. Amateurs have been allowed restricted use, but only on a non-interference basis; we MUST ACCEPT interference from the other services, and MUST NOT interfere with the other users on the "band." THAT's why channelized usage was permitted; so that primary users could contact Amateurs and inform them of interference or THEIR necessary use of a "channel." Same reason for USB on frequencies normally used by Amateurs on LSB: compatibility with the services that have primary allocation.
The point is, that 60 Meters, at least in the U.S. isn't meant to be a "Rag chew"/contest Amateur allocation; such use is secondary and not protected in any way from operations from other services which have primary usage rights. And IF abuse were to occur, such as deliberate interference with government services, the entire allocation could be withdrawn from Amateur Radio status in the U.S.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K1AVE on December 21, 2006
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Those 500 and 600 Hz tones are relative to the WWV AM carrier so the 500 and 600 numbers will always be "dead on" or at least as close as they can set them.
Gene
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!' Kenneth is listening..
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by WA2JJH on December 21, 2006
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The few times I get the nerdy....Your off freq., I was using my drake TR-7 or was to lazy to set Harris RF-3200 to the 10hz of hertz readout. The VFO on the Harris will tune in 4 step ratio's of 100khz glogs or down to 10HZ.
Funny, I never had off freq. complaints back in the 1970's with my TS-520.
Several factors are up here.
Todays radio's do display in tens of HZ. I think one major factor is DSP. Better DSP's have the dial up ultra narrow to ultra wide TX/RX widths.
Many of us O.F.'s used rigs that had 2.7-3khz RX IF'. We also had pretty much the same TX BW(TR-7 was wise and used a 2.3kc filter.
My Commercial Harris Does have a VFO as well as a TCXO. I calibrated with a Rubibidium standard. So I can be called "KENNETH"!(Cuase, I do know the frequency!!(:
The Design meets stricter standards. The R.I.T. only covers +/_ 250hz. The always on speech proc. adapts for any voice. I find I do not miss the lack of a PBT control.
Not many of us were "Freemasons", however we did seem more tolorent attitude to our fellow ham brothers.
With the 1.8BW RX filter kicked in on my Drake TR-7, my problem is those that are way off frequency....Are not heard.
It is a split decision with me. I will tolorate a little "Donold Duck". I cannot deal with those "Space Cadets" that do not set their DSP TX properly. Why do you need any low end down to 20HZ!
So yes, I do find....Your off frequency O.M. annoying. Back then we simply worked it out. We did because the rigs of the 60's and 70's were different.
In some ways better!
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by G0GQK on December 21, 2006
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Where on earth do these stupid ideas come from ? America ! No doubt these are the latest recruits to amateur radio who never spent any time learning how to tune in an SSB station during an apprenticeship as short wave listeners.
The only way to solve this problem is to tell them straight when they respond," You're off frequency mate ", and keep telling them until they get on your frequency. If they don't move the VFO to be on frequency just say " I should get that rig seen to ", and sign off. Somebody has to train 'em !
Mel G0GQK
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!' Kenneth is listening..
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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"Better DSP's have the dial up ultra narrow to ultra wide TX/RX widths. "
An interesting point and a good reason to learn to zero beat on CW.
I like a narrow CW filter... in my old TS-440 I had a 500Hz filter. In the new FT-857D I got the 300Hz CW filter, which is good, but then I found that I really liked the 60Hz CW peaking filter on top of that.
And then, I called CQ on CW... talk about needing to have the RIT at the ready... but I'm willing to accomodate. I've got a RIT and I tend to shut off the DSP filter when I call CQ now and then tune YOU in with the RIT and then turn the narrow filter back on.
Of course the '857 has a cheater zero-beat circuit. On CW the RX/TX LED is actually an RX/TX/zero beat indicator.
Green for RX, Red for TX, Flashing Blue in time with the CW if you're within 10-20Hz of zero beat... no equivalent to help people out on sideband though.
Dan
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!' Kenneth is listening..
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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"No doubt these are the latest recruits to amateur radio who never spent any time learning how to tune in an SSB station during an apprenticeship as short wave listeners."
Yes, but it's not stupidity. New hams are done a disservice by having the initial license be, effectively, a VHF/UHF FM license. Of course, there's more to be done above 30MHz than FM, but when you get your ham ticket and are shopping for a rig and the first thing that catches your eye is the $120 2m HT . . .
Thankfully the FCC has seen fit to fix this problem with HF privileges for Technician licensees.
Dan
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!' Kenneth is listening..
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by K4JF on December 21, 2006
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"Your HI-FI-SSB and I am using a 1.8khz filter "
Uh, that would be "your SSB and I ARE using a filter"
...chuckle...
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AA4LR on December 21, 2006
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I once answered a CQ of a guy in a contest to tell him he was on the wrong sideband.
I think it was on 40m and he was using USB instead of LSB.
He thanked me. He wondered why he wasn't getting many callers.
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by W6TH on December 21, 2006
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.
Elmers, elmers and more elmers, seems the elmers are those that are in need of elmers.
W6th, the non vanity call.
.:
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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K4JF: That's really much funnier than it should be... what are you doing with my SSB though?!?! At least you're being ... uh... safe?
Vito, you're right, the elmers need elmers. And the elmers' elmers need elmers and the elmers' elmers' elmers need elmers.
The day I stop learning new things about radio propagation, antennas, and circuits is the day I hang up the mic and key.
Happy holidays everyone. The magic of radio is strong. Make sure you use your filters.
Dan
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My hero, zero zero one!
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by N4QA on December 21, 2006
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My favorite crystal is 7006.667 Kcs. But, that's ok!
I have a Knight-kit T-60 transmitter that magically transforms that frequency to 21020.001 Kcs...and several others! <g>
The magic is that I can work all the way to Jamaica on 7006.667 by night *and* on 21020.001 by day! I didn't realize 'til recently that I've been practicing zero zero plus one while on 15 meters! Man, am I on frequency or what!?
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by K4JF on December 21, 2006
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"K4JF: That's really much funnier than it should be... what are you doing with my SSB though?!?! At least you're being ... uh... safe?"
Yessir! We use a filter always!! <:o)
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 21, 2006
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N8IK wrote:
"KY1V - those are hilarious! 73, Ian"
Thank you Ian, at least one other ham has a sense of humour.
It is no wonder there is so much bickering on eHam!
David ~ KY1V
Merry Christmas to everyone!
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by KL7IPV on December 21, 2006
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I am not going to read all the replies thus far. Here is my take! I have been using and upgrading my radios for 40 years now. In each instance the readouts became more precise. That allowed me to tune more precisely and lets me know pretty much "exactly" what frequency I am on. If I call CQ and someone answers me, I expect that answer to be on MY calling frequency NOT the frequency of the person answering. The exception would be for someone who is still using a radio that is "rockbound". Otherwise the following applies.
I will not use my RIT to tune them in simply because I am the iniatator of the exchange not the responder. I do NOT know who is going to be interfered with if I move but I know, because I checked first; that I am on a clear frequency where I am. I also will not continue a conversation using a RIT because now we would be using more space to talk than if they responder were on the frequency I chose. I will ask the responder to retune to my frequency and explain that the "zero-zero" procedure is NOT a requirement and I have a radio that tunes freely without channelizing the frequencies.
If someone wants to talk to me in response to MY calling CQ, then it is for them to tune to me not the other way around. If I meet someone who will NOT tune to me, then the conversation will not go anywhere. Maybe that seems a little "stiff" but if we start allowing that procedure, what follows next? Will be going back to fixed crystals so we now are closer to being channelized? I prefer NOT to go back to the days of the 60s and before. Nope. If you hear me calling CQ, tune to me and we will do fine. If you cannot control your rig enough to do that, then I suggest you keep tuning by. After all I am the one that has the frequency selected. Please use MY selected frequency to respond.
73,
Frank
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by N3OX on December 21, 2006
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I really don't think anyone is pushing channelization. I don't think anyone is trying to make you move. I just think that people are making the innocent mistake of saying, "huh, that guy's on 14.189.67, that's weird"
Maybe they think there's something wrong with your display. Maybe they think its 330Hz off and you don't know.
It's still appropriate to tune for proper intelligibility, but this isn't the end of ham radio as we know it just because someone makes a mistake and thinks you intend to be on 14.190.00.
So if someone says you're off frequency, just say "I'm on 14.189.67... where do you think I am?"
Dan
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by WA2JJH on December 21, 2006
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<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Where on earth do these stupid ideas come from ? America ! No doubt these are the latest recruits to amateur radio who never spent any time learning how to tune in an SSB station during an apprenticeship as short wave listeners.
The only way to solve this problem is to tell them straight when they respond," You're off frequency mate ", and keep telling them until they get on your frequency. If they don't move the VFO to be on frequency just say " I should>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Been SWLing since the age of 5. The Old Grundig had one wide filter for AM.
When working a crowded 20M, I would rather not tell the O.M. to move. I have My Twin PSB set so I can copy him off freq., while I keep the interfering signals just enough out of the passband.
Of course if someone is a newbie, he should be corrected during a QRM QSO
Seems like some of the FT-1000's are transmitting DSB or vestigial SSB....Mate(Kenneth)
Every situation CANNOT be used as an Elmer experience. I have found that some newbies take offense at being corrected.
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by NB3O on December 21, 2006
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N3OX wrote:
"It's still appropriate to tune for proper intelligibility"
That's why I now stay below 3600,000.000 cycles!
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N0AH on December 21, 2006
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers... Reply
by KL7IPV on December 21, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I will not use my RIT to tune them in simply because I am the iniatator of the exchange not the responder"
You know, this is perhaps the most complicated one liner I have ever read on Eham............this is going to be a very long year.
If I were thinking about getting into amateur radio right now, I'd wait for all the no code dust to settle-
I will say this, as it has not come up......the four 20M audiophiles hanging out on 14.190+- really take the prize for telling each other that they are off frequency. If you have been around long enough (5 minutes), you know who I am talking about.
These hams invest thousands of dollars into their mic's and if your voice sounds funny, then by God, you're off frequency-
We all have our agenda's eh?
True story-
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AE6RO on December 21, 2006
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N3OX: My mistake. I apologize. I flashed on your reply to him and thought you posted the question.
You're quite right about posting here. I can stop, anytime I want to.
As an aside, wouldn't a loading coil right at the center of the antenna waste power?
73 and Happy Holidaze, AE6RO
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But, my Meissner Signal Shifter...
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by N4QA on December 21, 2006
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model 'EX', when using that same 7006.667 Kcs crystal, will operate only on 14013.334 Kcs.
And, it's still *EXactly* on frequency!
Go figure...
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Gee, even my three-year-old...
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by N4QA on December 21, 2006
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Icom 703 can step in quarter-Hz increments, allowing me to dance around *your* old frequency, 90 degrees at a time, if'n I want to...
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA9SVD on December 21, 2006
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y KB9TMP on December 20, 2006
W5CPT said:
"My present rig, an Icom IC-756 (non-Pro) will display the frequency down to the hertz (or cycle if you prefer) and is dead on using Time Signal on 10 & 15 MHz and a sound card program called CW-Get to measure the 500 & 600 Hz tones."
------------
Cycle? No, it's not what we prefer or even accurate. "CYCLE(S) PER SECOND" would be accurate, but it "Hertz" to hava to say all that (or spell it out in CW.)
Simple saying "cycles" alone has NEVER been accurate, and is not simply a recognition of "the old days."
And even "CPS" (Cycles per second) takes longer to send than "Hz" in CW.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K8MHZ on December 21, 2006
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"Simple saying "cycles" alone has NEVER been accurate, and is not simply a recognition of "the old days."
And even "CPS" (Cycles per second) takes longer to send than "Hz" in CW."
No, but...
MC = Megacycles. Before Megahertz was used the term for a million cycles per second used to be megacycles. Granted, it was not technically correct, but that is what they used to say.
So in essence, MC = MHz.
(But K8MC is not the same as K8MHZ)
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA9SVD on December 21, 2006
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by KY1V on December 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend! After reading this article I was laughing so hard my sides hurt. Being a ham for 30+ years, I have never run into anyone that called me and said "You're off frequency" and I it was almost implausible to believe it happened...
then I read this...
K0CBA wrote:
"I guess the only down side to working .3 or .5 or what ever, is that it makes for more splatter to and from the point zero zero stations just above and below you. So if that's the goal, then operating "plop 'n' squawk" will render the most success.
I am a bit confused however as most old timers tend to castigate newer ops for not 'doing as the Romans do' and like it or not, now a days the Romans seem to use point zero."
Now my sides are splitting!!!
Chris (ALLENCB) confirmed there are new guys that don't really know how to tune, but at least he claimed he really didn't know any better! I am glad we have guys like him coming into ham radio as he shows an honest interest in "learning the ropes", but lord knows with the FCC completing the "dumbing down" of Amateur Radio, we are going to have a whole lot more K0CBA's to contend with!!!
David ~ KY1V
"Now, where's my channel? Oh yeah, 14.193.67"
============
Well, THERE"S your problem! You're SUPPOSED to be on 14.193.675 MHz. You WERE off frequency... ;-)
===============
Sheesh. As if we don't have more important things to argue about, such as code/no code... OH you mean...? We can't even argue about THAT any more? What's left to argue about? (I guess it's fan dipoles vs. everything else.)
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 21, 2006
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My bad!
I have warmed up the TCXO and changed the Quick Tuning Set on the main VFO of the IC-7800 and am now correctly reading 14.194.675!
I am now officially "On Frequency"
David ~ KY1V
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 21, 2006
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My bad again!
I have warmed up the TCXO and changed the Quick Tuning Switch on the main VFO of the IC-7800 and am now correctly reading 14.193.675!
I am now officially "On Frequency"
David ~ KY1V
One of these days I might not be such an amateur!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 21, 2006
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My triple bad!
I am so sorry...
The IC-7800 employs an OCXO (Oven Control Crystal Oscillator) which is stable to within plus or minus 0.05ppm. at 0 degrees C to 50 degrees C.
Am I on frequency yet? You sound good to me!
David ~ KY1V
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AA4PB on December 21, 2006
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The fact that a digital radio dial reads out to the nearest 10Hz or 1Hz does not mean that the actual frequency is that close.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W5HTW on December 21, 2006
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CQ 40 CQ 40 CQ FORTY METERS (Just in case I'm really on 20)
Ed
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4QA on December 21, 2006
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Well said, Ed.
It's not so important *where* we are...
just *that* we are!
72.
Bill, N4QA
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W7ETA on December 21, 2006
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I assume this can be attributed to new hams starting out on VHF/UHF on rigs that go from VHF/UHF to HF.
When they get on HF, using the same rig, they employ what they have learned so far on VHF/UHF, incorrectly to HF.
It really isn't their fault they start out that way.
Just remember, many hams think they are absolutely RIGHT--I think, therefor it IS.
73
bob
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KL7IPV on December 21, 2006
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N0AH questioned this "one liner":
"I will not use my RIT to tune them in simply because I am the iniatator of the exchange not the responder"
Why is that complicated? It simply says when you hear me calling "CQ", I expect YOU to get on my frequency to respond. If that makes it complicated I guess I am missing something here. I am not going to try dancing around the dial to tune to you when I fully expect YOU to tune on me. It could get to be a real dance then. Simply respond on the frequency where you hear me. It is really THAT simple.
Frank
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by N6AJR on December 21, 2006
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N6AJR, also a non vanity call
( I don't know what that means to any one but it is true..:)
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K0CBA on December 21, 2006
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...."but lord knows with the FCC completing the "dumbing down" of Amateur Radio, we are going to have a whole lot more K0CBA's to contend with!!!
David ~ KY1V "
David, Thanks for the personal attack on me for my observations made mainly on 40 & 75: mia culpa, mia culpa, mia maxima culpa.
For your consideration, I had my ticket before you were born, well before the "dumbing down" era. [YOUR WORDS not mine]
Not having an out of district "rent a call" I guess I'm just not fit to say anything anywhere such a world famous DX'er may take it wrong.
Have a warm 'n' wonderful holiday season.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N3ETA on December 21, 2006
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Get A LIFE And while your at it pick up a Frequency counter. Find something worth Complaining about.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KE4PJW on December 21, 2006
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A 4 years ago, there was some really good e-skip on 10M one night. I heard two stations talking on 28.4. I waited for a lull in the conversation and transmitted my call. One of the stations acknowledged me and I let them know the band was open. The fellow says to me, "Your off frequency, about 200Hz. You must be using a Uniden HR-2510". I responded "You sound OK to me. My RIT is off and no I am running an IC-725". He asked what frequency was on my display? I told him that I really had not noticed, I just tuned you guys in. It was a couple hundred cycles from being on 28.4 He said I should have my rig checked out. He and his friend took their rigs to a local tech to make sure they were "right on frequency".
Two years later, same situation, same guy, same conversation. So I checked the rig on WWV and also on 10M with my service monitor (Both RX & TX). I could not see that it was much off. I have never had any other reports of being "Off frequency."
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N0AH on December 22, 2006
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Dear Frank-
I have nothing to change in my last statement-
RIT controls are there because not every radio can match the exact frequency of the other during a QSO. Did you just fall off the Nebraska Corn Husker's band wagon?
Paul
University of Colorado
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WX1F on December 22, 2006
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It seems that no matter what the topic, why do some of you feel the need to squeeze in derogatory remarks about citizen band radio operators? There are just as many bad operators in amateur radio. Your comments are not appreciated nor welcome. They are out of tune with the spirit of amateur radio. As a kid, I always thought of hams as highly intelligent, and thoughtful individuals and I looked up to them my younger years. I had always held hams in the highest esteem and looked forward to the day when I could become one. I would spend hours, watching over the shoulder of my old friend Mossy Flint WL1WO and marvel at the equipment that lit up his shack. NOT ONCE did he ever bad mouth anyone. Not CBer's, not even his tipsy ham friend on the other side of town, who peppered his language with explicatives the more beer he consumed as he talked with Mossy. Why do you feel the need to downgrade people who you don't even know, just because they operate on a different frequency than you. I don't see you commenting about the garbage mouths on 75m?
I'm climbing off my soapbox now and asking that we clean up our act on this forum. 73 and Merry Christmas to all.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA2JJH on December 22, 2006
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And to think one of the posters here was granted........"Amatuer of the Year" by the ARRL a few years back.(not me...I shun all awards like that)
Thats like............................
1)Why not most spattered audio of the year.
2)Most average worker of the year.
3)Employee that lost the least amount of Plutonium
at Rocky Flats.
4)Who had the heighest ratio of coax length to DX contacts.
5)Who WAS most on frequency during the year in PPM.
6)wHICH DRIVER "flipped the bird" the least or most.
7)Is it hotter in the summer or the city.
8)Who ate the most pork tartare and blowfish, and did not die.
9)Who owns the most EICO-KIT rigs.
10)Who turned the most posts into CW/Anti-CW threads.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA0LYK on December 22, 2006
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> by KE4PJW
>
> Two years later, same situation, same guy, same
> conversation. So I checked the rig on WWV and also on
> 10M with my service monitor (Both RX & TX). I could not
> see that it was much off. I have never had any other
> reports of being "Off frequency."
Of all the posts on this thread, this is the only one I've seen that got it right. Sometimes the lack of RADIO knowledge among hams astounds me. It is important to know your TRANSMIT frequency. I know it's a hard concept, but just because you're using a transceiver doesn't mean you are receiving and transmitting on the same frequency. Maybe since I grew up with separate units as did many old timers, it isn't as difficult for me to realize that transmit and receive frequencies can be different. This is important for hams to know so that when you're operating near band/segment edges you don't unexpectedly go out of band. I encourage everyone, even those with brand new expensive transcievers to evaluate your circuitry (a service manual will help) to determine if this can happen.
Normally, you can't just set the RECEIVER portion of your tranceiver to WWV or other frequency standard and assume (you know the old adage) that you are also transmitting on the same frequency. Too many rigs use different oscillators for transmit and receive to just assume that setting your receive frequency will suffice to keep you accurate. Even varying voltages and/or different loads on a local oscillator during transmit and receive can result in slightly different frequencies for both.
My old Icom 745 has an "optimized" LO setup (reduced parts count) designed for SSB that just doesn't work correctly. To get USB/LSB to sound the same, i.e. go through the crystal filter properly, requires me to move the LO frequency off of the correct frequency to obtain the right "center" frequency. Otherwise, one ssb sounds low and the other one high. This means my transmit frequency is off by about 150 hertz. My Icom 761 uses a totally different LO for CW/RTTY in transmit than it does for receive and I have to adjust it correctly to match the reciever.
If you want to know if your rig has a difference, you can use WWV and a second receiver if your transmitter will transmit out of band. Just tie your rig to a dummy load and reduce power while transmitting a carrier at the WWV frequency. Use your second receiver to let you know when you have zero beat and see what your dial reads. I also use this method to check my frequency counter. I wrap a coil of wire around the dummy load and hook it to the freq counter. When I'm zero beat, I see how far off the counter is. On SSB, I have an accurate audio generator to generate a psuedo-carrier to use in measuring the difference.
Jim
WA0LYK
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KX8N on December 22, 2006
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"N6AJR, also a non vanity call
( I don't know what that means to any one but it is true..:) "
Supposedly, you aren't a real ham if you have a vanity call, too. Or at least it's important to Vito. Of course, you aren't a real ham if your first car didn't require you to crank it to start it, either.
KX8N, very proud vanity call owner.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by 2ARADIO on December 22, 2006
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To the gentleman who suggests that there are "just as many" good CB'ers as good hams, so don't knock 'em - I would beg to differ. I'm sure there are, in fact, plenty of normal, thinking folks who get into CB radio, and it's likely that the more professional, or technically inclined (or perhaps intelligent) folks gravitate into ham radio - and more power to 'em. (Literally and figuratively!)
Having said that - given that anyone, and I mean anyone, can pick up a CB radio at a Walmart, truck-stop, or wherever, a very few minutes listening to channel 19 will convince you that it's not populated, for the most part, by rocket scientists! And that's because there is not a single hurdle standing in the way of any moron who wants to run his or her mouth on the radio!
In the meantime, those who choose to flee the world of CB should be welcomed as one of us - at least until they begin acting like the folks that populate Channel 19!
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RE: 'You're in need of Elmers...
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by AE6RO on December 22, 2006
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I dunno, would channelization be so bad? Got it on VHF FM and 60 ssb meters already. Wouldn't it help with QRM issues (he asked innocently)? AE6RO
Flame away, my good men!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KY1V on December 22, 2006
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K0CBA...
I apologize if you thought my comment was a personal attack on you. It was not intended as a personal attack. Instead, it was meant to point out the fact that hams that have been around for many years are going to have to contend with these "new ideas" of how ham radio "should be". Quite frankly, I didn't take your comments as "observations", rather as statements of your opinion and I merely used your post as an example. Again, I apologize if you were offended.
Needless to say, my FCC assigned call is NOT a "rent a call", it is a vanity call AND I am from the first call district AND all the good calls in the 4th district are taken...AND if you really want to complain about the redistricting of call signs, the FCC is the place to start.
Quite frankly, I never liked the idea of permitting call signs out of district either, but then again, I am opposed to the VE system and the no code licensing.
I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas.
Now, for WA2JJH's wise crack about my Amateur of the Year award in 2004, I say...do your research. It was the Dayton Hamvention that awarded it this to me, not the ARRL. When you finish your research, kindly take spelling lessons, or better yet, use a spell checker! Then there is this thing about the shift key…oh well, you get my drift.
Merry Christmas to you also!
David ~ KY1V
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N3OX on December 22, 2006
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"As an aside, wouldn't a loading coil right at the center of the antenna waste power?
73 and Happy Holidaze, AE6RO"
Not really... it's not a short or anything. It's a sort of loading coil and autotransformer where the coil loads the antenna to resonance and you tap the coax across a few turns in the middle to get 50 ohms resistive. I'd be happy to say more over email; it's in my profile
73, CUL!
Dan
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KL7IPV on December 22, 2006
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Dear Frank-
I have nothing to change in my last statement-
RIT controls are there because not every radio can match the exact frequency of the other during a QSO. Did you just fall off the Nebraska Corn Husker's band wagon?
Paul
University of Colorado
*************************************
No, I didn't just fall off anything. I already said that if the other was rockbound I would use a RIT. But if you want to answer ME when I call a "CQ" then use the frequency I chose. And it is not during a QSO, it is responding to a call. Why is that tough? If the other can tune a radio they can zero beat too. And showing a name of a school doesn't impress me. Tuning a radio correctly would.
I am done with this subect. It is obviously to difficult for some to comprehend..
Frank
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W7ETA on December 22, 2006
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He simply forgot the point of the article, someone expecting everyone using a frequency that, according to his receiver, ends with "zero-zero". And, if his display doesn't indicate zero-zero, the other op is "OFF-frequency".
73 Merry Christmas Frank
Bob
PS: now someone who is RIGHT, needs to tell us all why RIT in some rigs can also function xmit.
If I use a separate xmitter and separate receiver, which one do I have to set to zero-zero before I xmit? Do I need a receiver with RIT in case someone calls me slightly off where I'm receiving? Do I need a dual receiver to monitor my xmit frequency AND the frequency the other op is operating on?
Guess I'm really lucky since my 950S has dual receive!
Can I still use my TR4C without RIT?
I'm so confused by all of these new requirements!
Can we still use straight keys if the contact points don't align up perfectly?
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W4FWL on December 22, 2006
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Hmmmm .... uh .... did anyone stop to think that your "zero-zero" may be different from my "zero-zero"?
I've run a 2 meter sideband net on 144.208 Mhz That's something like 144...208..."zero-zero", right? WRONG!
It was not uncommon for folks checking into the 2M SSB net to be at least 200 Hz off frequency from **each other**. Frequency error DOES get worse with higher frequencies.
I had the damndest time trying to explain to folks to tune to the net control station ... net control and net control alone is the frequency standard for the net. The digital readout on your expensive Kenwood TS-2000 is NOT the frequency standard! Net control is always on frequency!
[Then there was the struggle to get folks to use a horizontally polarized antenna ... (" ... hey, John and I both has verticals an' we kin hear each other jus' fine, man ...").]
*****
Simple procedures so everything little thing will be alright:
1.) Coarse tuning: use the numbers on your digital readout to get in the ballpark ... especially the numbers on the left ... the last three or so digits on the right are probably not that accurate anyway (this goes for your TS-2000 and my FT-847).
2.) Fine tuning: Put your thumb over the *entire* digital readout, and slowly and carefully turn your VFO knob to a point where you can best hear the station you want to talk to.
3.) Once you've tuned in, stay put! Don't go chasing some other Delta Alpha up and down the band just because he has no common sense.
73
Ivan, W4FWL
Tallahassee
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KU4AB on December 22, 2006
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Think about this...
The manufacturer of your rig has a fantastic lab with stabilized 120 volts AC driving high quality regulated 13.8 volt power supplys in a temperature stabilized room. All to make sure their rigs meet the design specifications.
Now how many of us have the same power supplys and carefully regulated temperatures in our ham shack or mobile ? I have seen power supplys vary from 12.8 volts to 14.1 volts. I've jumped in the mobile when its 130 degrees inside as well as 15 degrees and fired that rig up and talked. So have all of us.
Just because the rig turns on, receives and transmits does NOT mean it still meets the factory specs. All rigs depend upon tiny Quartz crystals to run the microprocessors, filters, TXCOs etc.. These are temperature sensitive , and can be affected by voltage changes. Even some manufacturers will sell you a high stability crystal oscilator. MARS ( the Military Amateur Radio Service ) now requires them. Just because you have one doesn't mean you're perfectly on frequency ,just that you are probably nearer to center than some other people.
Remember also ,the readout on the front of your rig is only a indicator. Very few if any rigs have a true frequency counter as the display.
Get in the habit thinking the VFO display as a starting point. The next time you feel like telling that guy he is off frequency stop to think.. Is it him? , or Me? Once a rig leaves the lab too much can vary for you to brag that yours is still perfect. It doesn't really matter if you are communicating and sound ok to each other.. If you tune on a frequency be courteous and tune to the guys that are already there, no matter what your readout says. Nobody likes a guy that always claims to be right !!! He's usually is wrong some of the time anyhow!!!
73's Tune me in some time.. I may be off frequency ,My rig is already a year or 2 old.. Phil
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KG6TT on December 23, 2006
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I wish this wasn't a topic. Too me it just shows the 'silly' side of some hams needs to feel superior.
Answer is simple and stated before. Whom ever gets there first sets the QSO frequency. The person who comes next should tune on the first regardless of what shows on the digital display... unless you expect you will be out-of-band! :)
If it bothers you to not see "zeros" then stay on 60-meters, 11-meters or always be the first one there.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KC0ROM on December 23, 2006
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I run an old FT-7 analog radio and the idea of you are off frequency on the ham bands is just ludicrous,I was taught to get as close as possible with the vfo and then switch to rit and touch them up,if I am not on a band edge or near another allocated portion,No problem,No foul. Sounds like a bunch of C.B. BAND crap to me.Just my two cents worth. Kc0rom Scott in Southwest Missouri.
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4QA on December 23, 2006
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I tried reaching Sergio via email but mail to the address given at QRZ, wt4wt@bellsouth.net bounces
An open letter to Sergio, Whiskey Tango cuatro Whiskey Tango and friends operating on 7127 KHz Lower Sideband this morning:
Hello, Sergio.
Your signal is Q5 S9+ into southwest Virginia this morning.
But, when you choose to operate on 7127 KHz, LSB, your signal intrudes into
the non-phone spectrum as low as 7124 KHz.
If you must operate so close to the lower phone band edge, please consider
switching to Upper Sideband.
As an alternative, if you continue operating Lower Sideband, please move up
to 7128 KHz.
Thank you.
Bill, N4QA
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KX8N on December 23, 2006
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I repeat, though, what's so hard about EITHER ham reaching out about 2 1/2 feet and turning a knob a little bit. I could see if one of you had to go outside and re-tune the antenna, but turning a knob? What's the point of being stubborn just on principle? Anyone passing buy and hearing two dudes on different frequencies trying to talk to each other won't know which one of you is too simple to tune into the other. It's anyone's guess.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KX8N on December 23, 2006
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" Anyone passing buy"
Sigh... "by", not "buy". Must have been thinking of buying something.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 23, 2006
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"I repeat, though, what's so hard about EITHER ham reaching out about 2 1/2 feet and turning a knob a little bit."
Agree! When I started out, whenever the other station sounded a bit off, I simply tweaked my receiver (without touching the transmitter). No need to say a word. When transcievers came along, the RIT control was there for the same purpose. I would never say "you're off frequency", not would I accept anyone else but a net control saying it.
If anyone tells me I'm "off frequency" and I'm not on a net, I'll check to make sure I'm in the band, and then give the same answer I give when anyone says I'm wrong to call CQ on 2 meters:
"I'm a ham operator, on a ham frequency, operating with good ham practice."
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by LA7QZ on December 23, 2006
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Hi.
I believe the reason debates like this come up is that the courses and requirements to pass the ham radio exam are now so far removed from the practical aspect of operating a ham radio that it is simply ludicrous.
Earlier this summer I crewed a Canadian yacht from St Maarten to Grenada. On the trip I extolled the vertues of having ham HF radio on a cruising yacht. The result was that the skipper and his wife both studied for, and got their ham licences when they went back to Canada.
We have now met up again and I have been asked to install their radio, ground plane, antenna coupler and antenna for them. I was quite surprised to learn that at no time during their course did they even SEE a ham radio set. They were never given ANY hands on tuition on any type of radio. They have no idea how to even switch the thing on, but they do know how a transistor works and how to calculate capacitors in parallell and series.
As for tuning to .00 frequencies, I find that most people do these days. Personally, I find it easier to scan the band looking for an interesting QSO or station calling CQ when I can use the 1kHz steps on my transceiver. Well, I wish ICOM had built the dang thing with 0.5kHz steps as many people, including a MM net I regularly participate in operate on .50 frequencies.
Of course, if I arrive last on the frequency, it is my duty as a good operator to tune to whatever frequency the operators already there are using rather than expect them to change their frequency to accomodate me. It's no hardship for me to hit the TS button and fine tune the frequency.
BTW, it seems to me that more hams operate with "odd" decimals on the lower frequncy bands. Don't know why this would be.
73 de LA7QZ/MM
Owen, Yacht Magic
Prickly Bay, Grenada
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by G3VGR on December 24, 2006
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If I was you, I would refrain from calling CQ on SSB. It would appear that you only seem to attract lids who can't tune a transceiver correctly with this practice.
Merry Christmas!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W4LGH on December 24, 2006
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Well I sure hope Santa isn't off frequency this year.
Last year he was way off. Musta been the cold at the North Pole!
I sent him an email about this, but he assured me that he had replaced the old Swans in the sled with a brand new Yaesu FT-DX-9000! I sent back an email saying he could just leave his sled in my yard and take my SUV! ...Haven't heard back from him on that one. Go figure...
Merry Christmas to all, and may your Christmas wish list be Complete!!
73 de W4LGH - ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KX8N on December 24, 2006
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"They were never given ANY hands on tuition on any type of radio. "
When you installed everything for them, did you just install it, or did you bother to Elmer them by teaching them what you were doing and why you were doing it?
That's the problem. Everybody wants to complain and moan about how little new operators know, but they don't want to take the time and effort to actually teach them anymore. It's easy when its like the old days when little Jimmy would come over after school and ask questions, and watch you operate. But how many hams in this thread have asked a newcomer into their home in the last five years, so you could steer them in the right direction?
I see a whole lot of complaining, but not many hands going up on that one.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W7ETA on December 24, 2006
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Huuuum.
Looks as if people who start off in CB might have an advantage over people who have never used a transceiver?
Bob
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W6WRT on December 24, 2006
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Next year will be my 50th in ham radio. First licensed in 1957 and I know exactly what you're talking about.
But... what would be wrong with channelizing ham radio? On HF it has become almost de facto to transmit on the zero-zero, as you call it, and it works pretty well most of the time. What if we go a step further and channelize the HF bands at intervals of say, 2.5 kHz? Think how much this would help in reducing QRM caused by someone being just a wee bit too close, but not quite on your frequency. With 2.5 kHz spacing and a 2.5 kHz receiver, they are either dead on frequency or you don't hear them at all. Nice, huh?
I'm sure a lot of knees are jerking out tere, but I would ask you to think about it. Channelizing works fine on VHF FM and in fact, hams are abut the only service which does not use it.
Bill, W6WRT
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by LA7QZ on December 24, 2006
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Hi
KX8N wrote:
: When you installed everything for them, did you
: just install it, or did you bother to Elmer them by
: teaching them what you were doing and why you were
: doing it?
I haven't actually done the installation yet. They are here in the same anchorage and I will start it as soon as we get this Christmas nonsense out of the way and as soon as their SG-230 coupler arrives.
I will explain what I am doing and why and once it's all installed, I will help them out with some real hands on practice on making QSO's with their new radio.
I have already gone a long way towards explaining what, why and how by lengthy e-mails while they were in Canada and I was in Trinidad buying my new boat and also by letting them read the manuscript for a book I am writing on MM HF installations. In fact, I believe I have given them all the information they would need to make the installation themselves.
I still think they should have had some hands on tuition. In my opinion, the course should start with good operating practice, perhaps using FRS radios, then go on to explain what the radio is actually transmitting, then talk about antennas and what happens if the antenna system is not matched to the frequency and only then go on to teaching how the signal is generated in the transmitter and decoded in the receiver.
The course should also include some time spent listening to and tuning HF stations on sideband, perhaps using a good shortwave receiver.
My friends had no idea until right at the end of the course why they were learning about resistors and transistors. It is difficult to learn something when you don't understand why you're required to learn it.
73 de LA7QZ/MM
Owen
Yacht Magic
Prickly Bay, Grenada, West Indies
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by LA7QZ on December 24, 2006
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Hi again
Bill, W6WRT wrote:
: What if we go a step further and channelize the HF
: bands at intervals of say, 2.5 kHz?
I am often on the MM net on 14297.5 at 1900z. As many of you will know, the Maritime Mobile Service Network is on 14300. Sometimes there is another net on 14295. My IC-718 then picks up splatter from both above and below and the IF shift is of no help as it can only deal with splatter from above or below, not both at the same time. I'm considering buying the narrow SSB filter for my rig. The built in DSP only has Auto Notch and a Noise Reduction filter.
I suppose what I'm saying is 2.5kHz is probably too narrow. Marine SSB uses 3kHz channel seperation.
I'm not sure I like the idea anyway. Seems there are already more than enough laws governing ham radio. I think what we need is good operating practice, not more laws.
Yes, I know a "better" more expensive radio would work better in this situation. The reasons I chose the IC-718 were:
1. It's cheap and I ain't rich.
2. The speaker is front mounted (good in a MM istallation).
3. The radio is simple enough to operate that I will not get lost in menus and buttons in an emergency.
4. The radio is simple enough to operate that I can teach a non-ham how to transmit a Mayday if I am incapacitated in an emergency.
73 de LA7QZ/MM
Owen
Yacht Magic
Prickly Bay, Grenada, West Indies
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 24, 2006
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" I think what we need is good operating practice, not more laws."
AMEN!!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W7ETA on December 24, 2006
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What a great idea! We channelize HF. Shud be easy to program the new rigs to increase channel spacing by S-meter readings.
As the S-meter increase the rigs could go from 2.5 kcs to 20 kcs with 10 over S-9.
Maybe somebody could program new rigs to decrease xmitted power as the S-meter increases; OR, by default, turn off the processor whenever the rig is turned off.
Just punch in your license class, and the rig can compute the filter one is using, and which sideband, and then refuse to transmit if someone tries to go to close to a band edge, or stays into a sub band where "Your using the WRONG mode!"
Golly! With fast computer and spell check, newer rigs could even shut themselves down if you send the wrong character on CW.
Won't Ham Radio be great with all the new computing power!
What I really need now is a Ft-243 Xtal with a built in digital display and adjustment so that I can be spot on, zero-zero.
Bob
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 24, 2006
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"But... what would be wrong with channelizing ham radio?"
MUCH! Ham radio is not just about talking (whatever mode). It is about experimentation, it is about innovation. Channelization would stifle innovation. Would PSK31 ever have been developed if everything were channelized to the old mode and there was no need? Obviously not (necessity is the mother of invention). As just about the only radio service that is NOT channelized, we need to guard that freedom carefully. Please don't lock us into the present (which will soon be the past) with channelization.
Use it only where it has benefits. And HF is not one of those places.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by AB7Q on December 25, 2006
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Well let's see. Tune to the guys voice. Pretty simple. That is the way I have done it for 30 years. Perhaps if someone tunes off of your frequency, you can either move to his, or tell him yours so he can move to you. It continues to amaze me that Hams are in the communications business, and cant seem to communicate! I will usualy try to tune someone to zero zero, but if they are not there then I twist the knob! When calling CQ, which for me is rare, I look for an even frequency. If there is not one available, and I have to slide some to get between stations, then I do that. It is really not that complicated!
The idea that we need to use every opportunity to bash people is insane. EVERYONE is still learning. Cut your fellow ops some slack! Twist the knobs, use the R.I.T. or whatever it takes!
Dave
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W4PA on December 26, 2006
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---I was made a Master Mason in 2001 and was also very proud, however, as I went to meetings the topic was alaways at some point or another leading to the older Masons complaining about the New Masons and how we did not work as hard as they did to earn the degree. Do you all see where I am going here?---
KB1OAN: As a new ham, you'll be amused to know this has been going on FOREVER in this hobby. I have a QST letter to the editor taped on the wall of my radio room that says (paraphrasing) "License exams are now too easy, the technical side of the hobby is lost, no one operates CW any more, the new guys are ruining ham radio." - the date? 1974. 73 de W4PA.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KC0YUW on December 26, 2006
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All you zero-zero guys are in the stone ages. I never listen or talk on any frequency ending in fewer than four zeros. Listen for me on 14.300.00 and also on...well, I guess listen for me on 14.300.00.
Mark
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by LA7QZ on December 26, 2006
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Hi all
This discussion has me tempted to go to 14200.147 and start calling CQ. I wonder how many guys would tell me I'm off frequency...
Happy new year to everyone!
73 de LA7QZ/MM
Owen
Yacht Magic
Prickly Bay, Grenada
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N4SL on December 27, 2006
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http://www.nataliedee.com/121406/wait-why-are-we-panicking.jpg
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N3VJA on December 28, 2006
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2 words:
Zero Beat
I never have a problem tuning in on someone else's transmission; as previously mentioned, wait till it sounds right and go from there.
However, I will admit to the fact that when I'm calling CQ, I look for a "base" frequency (.00, .05, etc.). Why not? If it's empty, why make more work for someone else to tune to something off the wall like 28.43692? How 'bout 28.435 and we'll go from there.
Unless your transmission can be construed as out-of-band/emission (SSB sub-carriers into CW/digital subbands), make the QSO, give the signal report, and either rag-chew or move on. End of discussion.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 28, 2006
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"However, I will admit to the fact that when I'm calling CQ, I look for a "base" frequency (.00, .05, etc.). Why not? If it's empty, why make more work for someone else to tune to something off the wall like 28.43692?"
There is no more "work" to tune to 28.43692 than there is to 28.4000. Why would you even look at the display when tuning someone in? Use your EARS, not your eyes... it's a spoken QSO.
On second thought, it is actually MORE work to try to tune to x.000. Just tune him/her IN. Then quit.
The only need for the frequency display is a) make sure you are in authorized bandspace or b)tune to a specific preset frequency such as a net or DX calling frequency like 14.195.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 28, 2006
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By the way, that display is just like the speedometer in your car. It is not exactly accurate. It is not even exactly the same as it was last month. Get over it. Tune the other station in, then enjoy the QSO.
(mountain out of molehill...mutter...mutter...mutter....)
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KB3HJK on December 28, 2006
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Answers your CQ, and then says you are off frequency. That is so mind-boggling I almost cannot believe it. I've only been on HF for less than a year, but plain old common sense informed me to tune the SSB signal to where it sounds "right", meaning as close to natural as I can get. Wow, simply amazing.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W3SWL on December 28, 2006
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Now , now, lets take another approach here. In order for operator "A" to tell someone, lets say operator "B", that they are off frequency, then operator "A" must first be on frequency. Once he has determined that he is on frequency, he must be able to tell if operator "B" is off frequency. Once this is determined, operator "B" must tune to operator "A" frequency, which now puts operator "B" off frequency. It is now operator "B" obligation to inform operator "A" that he is now off frequency. This in turn begins the process all over again. One should note that due to the earths rotation, ionospherical absorbtion, the doppler effect, and the GCF of the quadratic equation used to compute the spacial offset of the 2 stations engaging in the QSO. The above mentioned process will be rendered completely useless if band conditions continue to be poor.
73 es HNY - Scott W3SWL
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 28, 2006
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The above is known as frequency chasing. That is why you touch up your receiver, not your transmitter. Or use the RIT if you are using a transciever. See my comments several inches above.
If there are only 2 of you in QSO, there is NEVER an excuse to tell anyone they are "off frequency". Just use your RIT, both of you if necessary.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on December 28, 2006
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KB3HJK - good for you! Only been on a year and you have it exactly right. Keep it up and hope to work you soon on a random frequency within mutually authorized spectrum space!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by N0YAI on December 28, 2006
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Anyone ever have any problems trying to find the sweet spot of an ESSB operator? Man, I get to swinging the dial back and forth pretty far at times trying to tune. And I think my hearing is OK.
73
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K5PEW on December 31, 2006
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The bandwidth of an SSB signal is roughly 2.5Khz, which crosses at least two ".00" frequencies when tuning 1Khz at a time. When tuning to receive another operators signal, it doesn't make sense to me that anyone would stop on either, unless the received voice happened to sound perfect (unlikely) at one of those two points.
That would be kinda like stopping at the nearest intersection to my home and then wondering why my wife and kids are three houses down the block.
Here's how I do it:
1- Tune across the band on ".0" with the VFO set to 1Khz increments until a received signal is found.
2- Switch to .1Khz and tune the other party's voice as natural as possible.
3- If I can't get as close as I want with .1Khz, I just grab the RIT and bring it correct.
Pretty simple.
I won't knock anyone I don't know, and I prefer to believe that almost everyone has good intentions and is acting on the best information they have, however misinformed it may be.
I will however offer a bit of advice for anyone who wants to to consider:
Find yourself a tube-type shortwave radio that is substantially older than you are, and tune in stations from all over the world, at all times of the night and day. Forget what "channel" or "frequency" you are on and listen to the "station" you want to listen to.
I did exactly that at 13 years old in the mid 70's, and it taught me a few things about radio, patience, and how to listen.
1- The station of interest is where it is, and that leaves it up to me to come to the frequency of the station I want to hear.
2- DX stations are not necessarily going to hang around while you figure out that YOU are the one "off frequency", so if you ever want to listen to, much less talk to a DX station, you will need to tune to their frequency, whatever it might be.
3- The DX or CQing station of interest is presenting itself at a fixed point in a linear band spectrum, for me to make contact with, and by doing so becomes the reference to which I must adjust my receiver in order to be rewarded with the contact I desire.
(Note that all three of the above statements amount to the same thing.)
4- Tuning (also known as listening) is an art, not a science.
Not only is it common sense to listen to and call a station on the frequency they hold, but I think it also represents good operating skills and an understanding that it is a priveledge to make contact with CQing stations who have made themselves available to you.
Graham Welch - K5PEW (In memory of Paisley Elizabeth Welch)
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by KG4JSU on January 1, 2007
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>This kind of stupidity comes directly from the
>envrionment the new operators themselves come from:
>CB.
>
>Gary WG7X
>
While I have been a ham for about 6 years, before THAT I don't think I had seen a CB radio - or even heard of anyone who uses one - since 1980!
Does anyone still use CB radios? Truckers maybe?
I can't speak for "new operators" (newer then me?) but if there is a big resurgence in CB radio that I am unaware of, would someone please point me to them so I can get a good laugh?
Because unless there is, I don't see how WG7X can claim that the clueless new operators - who don't understand tuning or frequency and rely on whole numbers - which I agree is ludacris - are doing so because they come from a CB radio culture.
Is that true? I mean, CB is an easy target (CB has always been an easy target) and scapegoat, but is it really relevant?
I don't think so. CB is dead to the masses and is not even on the radar of today's cell phone and blackberry culture. So why do some people keep trotting out the old bogeyman of CB radio when it only shows how clueless they themselves are?
NEWSFLASH: CB radio is dead.
So where do they come from, these new operators learning to reduce complexity of frequencies until their entire universe ends in .00? Beats me. But they are not ex-CB radio phreaks!
Best,
KG4JSU
S/V Queen Jane
Jordan
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on January 2, 2007
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"Does anyone still use CB radios? Truckers maybe?"
Oh, there are a lot of them. Just tune the frequencies sometime, like I do when I want to know if 10m is open. You'll hear a lot of them illegally "shooting skip" and if you can stand the language long enough, you can find out in what direction the band may be open.
See, it can even be useful!
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'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4UUG on January 3, 2007
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"You're off frequency."
THOSE OLD SMOKE SMELLING TUBE FILLED BOAT ANCHOR RADIOS BELONG IN THE TRASH PUT THEM IN THE DUMPSTER AND TRASH THEM.THESE RADIOS SHOULD BAN FROM USE.THEY DRIFT SO BAD.
ANY VHF OR UHF RADIO WITH OUT A PL ENCODE DECODE FEATURE ON IT SHOULD BE PLACED IN THE DUMPSTER ALSO ALSO.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4UUG on January 3, 2007
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KG4JSU "CB radios? "
I think all cb radios should be ban from use in all DOT controled equipment.They should be given a small portion of uhf 5 watts with 14 channels much like the frs radio.Then CB radio could be done away with.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on January 3, 2007
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"THOSE OLD SMOKE SMELLING TUBE FILLED BOAT ANCHOR RADIOS BELONG IN THE TRASH PUT THEM IN THE DUMPSTER AND TRASH THEM.THESE RADIOS SHOULD BAN FROM USE.THEY DRIFT SO BAD.
ANY VHF OR UHF RADIO WITH OUT A PL ENCODE DECODE FEATURE ON IT SHOULD BE PLACED IN THE DUMPSTER ALSO ALSO. "
Wrong on two more points! You really need to read MY pet peeve above. (And very few old radios drift, by the way.)
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by W9WHE-II on January 3, 2007
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"Does anyone still use CB radios?"
Just wait.
Many new HF hams will be using modified CB radios on 20 meters in just a few days!
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on January 3, 2007
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Mail this to a friend!
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""Does anyone still use CB radios?"
Just wait.
Many new HF hams will be using modified CB radios on 20 meters in just a few days! "
I doubt it. To change an 11 meter radio over to 20m will require MAJOR modification and parts replacement. Conversely, to change one to 10 meters is a crystal change and minor tweaking. I suggest you will see some on 10 meters, but I doubt if you will see any on 20 meters, as it would be cheaper to buy a good used multiband rig for 20.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on January 3, 2007
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Mail this to a friend!
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""Does anyone still use CB radios?"
Just wait.
Many new HF hams will be using modified CB radios on 20 meters in just a few days! "
I doubt it. To change an 11 meter radio over to 20m will require MAJOR modification and parts replacement. Conversely, to change one to 10 meters is a crystal change and minor tweaking. I suggest you will see some on 10 meters, but I doubt if you will see any on 20 meters, as it would be cheaper to buy a good used multiband rig for 20.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on January 3, 2007
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Mail this to a friend!
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"ANY VHF OR UHF RADIO WITH OUT A PL ENCODE DECODE FEATURE ON IT SHOULD BE PLACED IN THE DUMPSTER ALSO ALSO."
That's a weird statement, and would require the junking of a lot of very good, still expensive radios out here. (4 out of my 7 two-meter rigs do not have PL and one of them still goes for over $800 on the used market.) There are MANY repeaters without PL (and should be more). Around here you just don't need PL for most repeaters. Plus there is a lot of activity that is not tied into repeaters.
Besides, the "decode" idea is a bunch of crap most of the time. You just aren't that near another station transmitting INTO the repeater all that often.
Pet peeve: Those who demand that if you don't have the latest rig you shouldn't be on the air. Not all of us have unlimited money.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by K4JF on January 3, 2007
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Mail this to a friend!
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"I think all cb radios should be ban from use in all DOT controled equipment.They should be given a small portion of uhf 5 watts with 14 channels much like the frs radio.Then CB radio could be done away with."
Rick, you're wrong about older equipment but you are absolutely RIGHT on this one. I agree. The problem, though, is that all the other ops would still be operating.
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RE: 'You're Off Frequency!'
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by WA2JJH on January 5, 2007
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Hmmmm. Why not ask Kennith. He ALWAYS knew the frequency. You do not have to punch him or mistake him for a TV reporter either. :)
If your that OCD-AR about it, calibrate your TCXO to a Rubidium standard. They can be had for $500 used.
They can output 1,5,10MHZ.
There is one dude in my area that sells them. Try ebay or www.vigilante-electronics.com. Mention my name, and get nothing!
Like I said before, we used to accomidate each other to maintain a QSO.(30 years ago or more).
When I first got my HF phone privs, I had an EICO-753. If you could get yours to work well, the Drifty 753 would drift about 10KC's/hour. I had one rag chew with a kindly O.M. that found it a fun skill to learn.
Think I am making it up? There a few on eham who claimed to have worked me. Wish I had my logs of 30 years ago.
I am not putting down a skill. Just an observation.
VFO's back then read down to the nearst KC. Heith kits 5kc(HW-101). Older rigs 10kc divisions.
The only time a ham got barked at was when an O.O. found you out of your lic. freq. segment.
If you spattered an OO would make sure it mattered! I guess today, if you get splatter simply use PBT or DSP to ignore it.....like a leaky radiator bladder.
Many that had General back then, rarely would drift into the Advanced segment.
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