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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

HF Antenna Installation Hints

Don Tyrrell (W8AD) on November 12, 2006
View comments about this article!

This article is for those who are new (and not so new) to HF and need good HF wire antenna installation information, for best performance and lowest SWR across the HF bands.

Problem Solvers for Wire Antenna Installations

Of the many questions we get concerning HF wire dipoles and slopers, many deal with the same common issues of antenna installations and performance problems. Indeed, many of the problems turn out not to be problems at all when we are provided with additional information about the situation, SWR "runs" across each band and the installation "site" itself. Additional information from the customer provides useful clues in helping to solve the problems.

The questions we get seem to follow a fairly consistent pattern from those new (and not so new) to HF. Proper installation and operation of VHF/UHF antennas can beVERY different from proper HF antenna installation and that's where the "rub" can come in for those new to HF.

Due to the wavelengths of the VHF/UHF bands, coupling to surrounding objects is usually minimized by placing these antennas only a few feet or so from things in theclose-in environment (roof tops, attics, gutters, other antenna, etc.). Now, here's where things greatly change when installing HF wire antennas.

The wavelengths of the HF bands are MUCH longer than those of the VHF/UHF bands, and coupling (and therefore antenna de-tuning) to surrounding objects can and does occur when HF antennas are placed close to surrounding objects that would not have affected VHF/UHF antennas. As an example, consider a 40 meter dipole (about 66 ft. Long) installed close to aluminum gutters (40-80 ft. long) along the side of your house and you'll see what we mean. Or consider this same dipole placed close to a roof top and within a few feet of attic wiring and HVAC ducting which can be "part" of the wavelength on HF. Installation SITE factors, therefore, are where most of the problems seem to lie with HF antennas, compared to VHF/UHF antennas, unless proper installation guidelines are followed.

Using fundamental antenna theory, and installation experience we have gained over many, many years of dealing with HF antennas may provide the answers you are seeking. No engineering formulas and complex theory here, just practical information gained from customers themselves, in addition to our own test results and operator knowledge as hams.

You're looking for the "how, why and what to do"! Some of the following points will be very basic for some of you, but in talking to many hams of all levels of experience, we hope you will find these points and suggestions useful and time saving.

A. Slopers (quarter wave) have a unique set of installation requirements compared to the typical half wave dipole. Basically, they require operation on a support/tower (35 feet or higher) with an HF size beam on top to act as a "capacity hat", sort of like an upside down vertical where the beam elements are like the radials of a ground mounted vertical. Also, there needs to be a good ground return path down the tower, and the sloper needs to be "in the clear". Metal guy wires that are not "broken-up" with insulators, and other wire antennas on or near the tower can cause serious problems (SWR and tuning). SWRs are most likely going to be a problem if these precautions are not considered. Sometimes, an external wide range tuner can help. It has been written that it's a lucky thing for a sloper to work correctly at all, since the support tower, guy wires and other attached antennas are a part of the sloper circuit. And, that can be true. However, with proper installation, a quarter wave sloper can be a very effective low band 160/80 meter DX antenna for those with limited space and lower height capabilities. We have many reports of multiple DXCC awards on these bands with quarter wave slopers.

B. Dipoles are a relatively simple design and usually easy to install and tune with good SWR, but they too require some thought for proper operation. Dipoles operating on 20 through 10 meters should be at 30 feet, or more, in the air. Dipoles operating on 160/80/40 meters should be at least 40 feet in the air for good SWR and at least average performance. Of course, there are exceptions to these numbers based on the customer "site". Higher heights on the low bands significantly improve performance. We have many customer reports of good operation at lower heights, but that depends on how high the "site" is electrically above ground at what's under the antenna. We can't predict that. Even at decent heights, both slopers and dipoles need to be in a clear "site", electrically uncluttered. See " Location" below.

C. Site Location. These antennas need to be as far as possible from any surrounding metal objects. Our tests, and those of customers, show that any antenna wire should be at least 15-20 feet from gutters and metal house siding or fascia. Metal guy wires should be "broken-up" with insulators at non-resonant lengths. Odd as it may seem, attics have a certain capacity characteristic (attic wiring and HVAC ducting) and antenna wires should be no closer than 10-15 feet from any roof top, even if it's a nonconductive roof material. Antenna wires should be at least 20 feet from other similar frequency HF antennas, even verticals.

Power lines must be avoided at all costs, and any antenna that may fall as a result of a storm or support failure must be positioned to NEVER fall across a power line. To reduce power line noise pick up, the antenna must be as far as possible from a line run. 30 feet, or more, is preferable.

A low frequency dipole (80/40 meters) can be put up to within 10 feet or so under a higher frequency (20/15/10 meters) beam with little if any problems. In an inverted-V configuration, the end of the wires should be about 8-10 feet, or higher, from the ground. The center feed point of an inverted-V should be offset from a metal support or tower leg by about 18 inches, on a nonconductive arm, to minimize couplingand thus higher minimum SWR. It is also IMPORTANT to note that antenna wires should not touch, or come closer than about 4-6 feet from any tree branch/limb or leaves. This may not be readily known but they can really upset resonant frequency or SWR.

If a dipole is fed with balanced line, the balanced line itself should be at least 6 feet from any metal objects, throughout the length of its run. It should never touch any metal, like window or door frames, as it enters the property. Of course there are exceptions, but this is generally the case. Close coupling of any metal to balanced line can significantly upset the system. Also, balanced line running down along side a metal tower leg or mast can cause serious coupling problems. If the balanced line is feeding a tower mounted dipole, it should come away from the tower at about a 45 degree angle and not near any guy wires or other wire antennas.

D. Attic installations. We have many successful customer reports of attic installations. HOWEVER--and this is a BIGGIE! Attic installations and performances (SWR) are unpredictable due to the fact that HF antennas in attics can be upset by attic wiring and heat/air ducting being nearby. Also, metal gutters and roof/wall material can be a factor. The height above ground (single story, multistory) is also an important consideration as with any "site" conditions.

Depending upon your residence, RFI coupling into stereos, TVs, burglar alarms and even garage door openers can also be a problem, particularly with high power. Due to the coupling effect of attic installations, an external wide range tuner is usually required for proper SWR tuning and operation.

These ideas are passed along to answer some of the questions we get concerning HF wire antenna installations. It is not meant to get into antenna theory and design as there are volumes and volumes of antenna books available from a variety of sources. However, it is interesting to note that in all those volumes, there is very little about antenna installation "site" information. There is information about antenna height Vs angle of radiation and patterns, but that's about it. It's probably because all the theory assumes antennas that are theoretically "in the clear" and in free space (called isotropic). The problem is, that's usually not too practical!

(There is NO commercial content here. These thoughts apply to ANYONE's HF wire antennas (good info for beams too). Pick whichever one is best for you.)

Welcome to HF, and have fun!

Don, W8AD, Alpha Delta Communications, inc.

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by NS6Y_ on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Great article and helpful to new hams getting into HF!
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by W8AD on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

I must hasten to say this article contains ideas that are just GUIDELINES. There are MANY exceptions, like good performance from low heights, antennas in odd configurations, strung thru metal things in attics, balanced lines going under metal window frames, antennas being strung along or thru other antennas on a tower or support and stuff like that. However, all installation sites are unique and generally unpredictable. Anything is worth a try as long as the "site" and antenna is generally in the clear.

And, as has been posted here before, any antenna is better than no antenna at all. Also, wide range internal or external antenna tuners can help, as long as the SWR at the antenna feedpoint is not TOO high (that's another subject). You still don't to lose it all in coax cable losses.

These GUIDLINES, though, are the result of a number of years of testing and talking to thousands of customers. Just wanted to pass them along to help with installaions for those who are not too familiar with HF antennas.

Have fun!

Don, W8AD
 
HF Antennas and Compromise  
by AI2IA on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
W8AD is describing HF anennas under ideal conditions. For most hams, given current popular and common lot sizes, and the proximity of utility poles and wires, and the number of trees and metal structures, his suggestions represent ideals, and not real life situations.
Additional facts are that you can bend a wire dipole up like a pretzel if you have to do so to make it fit where you need it. You are not out of the game if you cannot achieve 1.5:1 VSWR. If you can tune it, you can use it, and many more. So, although this article can help you very much, don't let the fact that you cannot match the suggestions of this article stop you from putting up wire as high as you can and as much as you can. Most things in life are a compromise, and antennas are no different.
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by PD0LDC on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Very interesting and informative article. Especially for the vast amount of Dutch Novice licencees that are on the brink of "storming" (limited parts of) HF. This is expected to happen before the end of this month (November 2006).
73, Dominic, PD 0 LDC
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KX8N on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"I must hasten to say this article contains ideas that are just GUIDELINES. "

Of course. That's why there are so many BOOKS on this subject. But there's no harm in a starter guide.
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by K0BG on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
There is an additional point to be made about dipoles. Lot size has a lot to do with how a dipole is strung. It may indeed need to be closer to rain gutters, trees, and other objects than we would like. This can cause a current imbalance in the antenna, which in turn can cause RFI and matching problems. A balun may help, but it is not the complete answer.

A lot of amateurs believe the two legs of a resonant dipole MUST be the same length, and this is not true except in free space. It may be necessary to change the length of just one side to get the SWR to an acceptable level. An antenna tuner can obviously be used, but not all of us have that luxury.

The bottom line is this; while dipoles are inexpensive, comparatively easy to erect, but as Don's article points out, there are a few things you must be aware of, if you're going to tune up your antenna correctly.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AA4PB on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
These are a very good set of guidlines. You will have very few problems with an antenna that follows them. Of course everyone can't always follow all of them but if you do the best you can you will minimize problems. Sometimes when you don't follow them you will be lucky and the thing will work anyway. Other times you won't be so lucky - but at least you will know the reason it doesn't work so well and can look for other solutions.
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by N0AH on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Don,

Nice write up. Excellent easy to understand tips, fb!

Personally, I have never had enough space for a proper suburban install of a dipole or sloper. But in Wyoming at my contest station, I had plenty of space. Compared to my vertical arrays, my 1/2 wave dipole arrays were not up to par compared to vertical array's. But that said, they were a lot cheaper and a lot less of a problem to maintain. And they worked plenty of DX.

All that said, I'm still a vertical fan for the backyard. I've never been able to get much miliage out of any lowband dipole or sloper in a metro area due to the lack of supporting structures.

Thank you for the very nice article and I for one am glad to see any manufactuer on a Eham thread.

73 Paul
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KA8OCN on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I found quite a bit in this article helpfull.
I have a installation I am wanting to get done but I have been waiting for a cold dry time in the winter to do it.
With me its the Power Lines that are my big problem, I have owned this house now for almost 20 years. My only tree is next tot he house and is now about 50 feet. I have never been able to get an antenna up over 25 feet and just clearing the roof of the house.
I have purchased a MFJ 160 meter G5RV and it has insulated wire, I would love to have that up at the 50 foot mark at least in the center, but it will have to be over the power line that comes into my home. It would be 20+ feet above them and the tree is next to where the power coming into the house.
I know that this is not an ideal installation but I am wondering if anyone else has used something like this?

I am not so much worried about noise as I am safety.
73's and thanks for any input people can pass along
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by SSB on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Balanced line should be kept 6 feet away from metal...." ???? 6 feet, you got to be kidding.

Alex....
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AI4NS on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
You absolutely CAN NOT run antennas over powerlines. Not only is it unsafe, it is probably illegal. You need to find another way. You could use the tree as the center, and orient the legs at something less than 180 degrees from each other to clear the power line. You could also attach one end to the tree, and the other end somewhere else, and make it a sloper.

Mike
AI4NS
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by K0BG on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
To SSB.

If would appear that 6 feet is excessive, and in most cases it is. However, if you have an antenna fed with ladder line, and an MFJ 259B with its associated balun, you just might be surprised just how much interaction there is even at 6 feet.

I use a doublet, fed with an SGC235 coupler. Between the coupler and the antenna is about 25 feet of ladder line. 80 and 40 worked well, but not 160. Moving the feed point of the doublet about 2 feet out from the tower, and rerouting the ladder line that much further away from the tower (now 3 feet), the combination easily tunes 160 with out any problem, and my RFI went away.

Part of the problem is what I eluded to previously. You can't always clear every structure and piece of flora in your yard. Any imbalance caused there in, is exacerbated by placing the feed line too close to other support structures. In other words, Don's advice is well placed if you excuse the pun.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by VE2EQL on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Don,
Thank you, i've been a ham since 1974, a youngest compared to the manu elmers on the net / air. Your notes are the foundation, no mater how basic. With winter right around the corner, I will be putting up some additional wire antennas. Your notes came at the right time.
John VE2EQL
 
RE: Attic HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by W4CNG on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have used AD Antennas plus two fullsized wire dipoles on 75/60 Meters in my Attic and outside at my 5-Land QTH. All work well. You do need to keep the wires away from Pre-Existing aluminum HVAC to/from plemum installed devices just a couple of feet.
Good Luck
Using both at my Alpharetta Ga Home at 1KW. No issues into home appliances.

Steve W4CNG
 
RE: Attic HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by N6AJR on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!




these also apply to " FAN DIPOLES" too




 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by W6TH on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
In an inverted-V configuration, the end of the wires should be about 8-10 feet, or higher, from the ground.

You did not say why, so I will add the information: The closer the ends of a inverted "V" are to ground, the shorter the antenna wires will be. (capacitive reatance). The ends can be six inches above ground level, or less.
........................
If a dipole is fed with balanced line, the balanced line itself should be at least 6 feet from any metal objects, throughout the length of its run.
.......................
My books read 3 inches minimum.

However, a great artical and to be followed.

.:
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Great full page ad for Alpha Delta.

Now....if you are short on space, need portability, need a light load to carry in your back-pack, want a FULL SIZE dipole instead of a lossy coil/trap antenna or just like to set your SWR in the snap of a finger, check out just one of Alpha Delta's competitors. (And their Eham reviews are posted at their website, too.)

Oh....and they make great "stocking stuffers"!

Http://HamRadioFun.com

73, Bill - WA8MEA
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WY3X on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I bought one of the "original" yo-yo-tenna kits at the Shelby hamfest several years ago because of the neat design of the yo-yos, obviously scavenged from some Japanese toy plastic fishing rod maker. I was never able to get it to tune properly, in spite of careful building and the experience of two decades of successful antenna building, including verticals, dipoles, Yagis, quads, wire beams, etc. My suspicion is that the wires inside the spools create unwanted inductance at the feedpoint, rendering it impossible to tune the old yo-yo-tennas properly. I notice that current designs move the yo-yos to the ends of the dipole instead of placing them at the center, which is a lot better for reasons I'll leave to other self-professed experts to explain. Some day I'll re-engineer the one I have. The basic idea is sound, however the implementation of the original antennas was faulty. -KR4WM

(For those who think my problem was somewhere else, install two large inductors in series with the elements at the feedpoint of your dipole, one on each side of the feedpoint, and try to tune it to ANY frequency!!! Then move them out to around halfway or beyond and see how much easier your dipole will tune!)
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
We don't do hamfests, so it must've been a knock-off version. (And we don't do kits....)

Try this experiment: Take a dipole with insulated wire and cut it for 75/80 meters. (130 feet.) Now.....run the wire through the end insulators and run it back parallel towards the center insulator....but do NOT connect to the center insulator's solder points. Do that to both sides. This gives you a total length of 65 feet....while using 130 feet of wire.

Now using your theory about excess wire, this should be resonant on 75/80 meters because of the total length of wire used....right? But....it is actually resonate on 40 meters. Why? Because the run of wire stopped at 65 feet(32.5 fee per side). Even though the conductor continued on for another 65 feet, the "element" ceased at 32.5 feet....each side. Same principal with the excess wire in the "Yo-Yo's". The antenna element stops at the point where the Yo-Yo ends.

I suspect what really happened in your "knock-off" version is that some cheap wire was used, and you had a busted wire/open connection somewhere underneath the insulation.

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
BTW, I was also a skeptic about the excess wire on the ends. That's why I marketed the antenna for SWL'ing ONLY for many years. That was until one of my Elmers took me aside and asked me why I didn't sell these for amateur transmitting use. I explained to Jim my "theory" regarding the excess wire forming a "coil" at the end. He almost knocked me for a loop! (Antenna pun intended....) He said; "Boy! Haven't you learned nothin' from me??!!" (Jim had been a ham twice as long as I had been alive.)

So it was Jim who explained the "antenna birds and the bees" to me. He convinced me that the excess wire creating a coil was just an urban legend. In fact, I attempted the ultimate challenge and tested one of the Yo-Yo-Deluxe models on two meters. That meant almost ALL of the wire would remain inside the reel....except for one foot.

The antenna resonated near the 1/2 foot mark (each side) and worked rather well dangling 25 feet in the air. I poured several hundred watts into it, with no adverse effects. Even though Jim had explained all of this to me, I was from Missouri (Really!) and I had to be shown!

Yep! Jim was right. Thanks, Jim....wherever you might be....

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KB2FBI on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
One. Pay attention to the known application hints and theories.
Two. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Installing my first sloping type of antenna in a postage-stamp backyard, fed on the top of a three story house. The bottom end was a might longer than yard length. Asked my Elmer. "So? Let it droop a few feet or just hang straight down. Come on! Be a 'Marconi!'" Advice I have never forgotten. I tried it and it worked. Since then, close or 'just about' was worth a try. I have had a few disappointments but usually I got a skyhook to carry my chatter skyward.

I say, start with the right or best theory. A deviation as necessary (not laziness) should at least be tried.

Also, we still read, about the ham and the ladder and the power line. It just makes me very sad to see it happen. It may seem redundant but let us keep warning each other and let us never grow tired of being reminded. I also keep one hand in my pocket when working or examine anything on my workbench. I then double check the wall socket. I then insert those plastic kid-proof inserts so no one walks in and does me a favor by plugging something in and I use a piece of duck tape on the power connector just to be sure. I then use the meter to look for a hot line. Also, 12 v. DC in the auto is a bit nasty as well. especially at 80 amps or so.

So, my Elmer told me, and I'm sharing with you guys: "Be a Marconi!" Sometimes, this radio stuff actually works! (grins)

-.-
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
KB2FB: So, my Elmer told me, and I'm sharing with you guys: "Be a Marconi!" Sometimes, this radio stuff actually works! (grins)
--------------------------
Amen! In fact, on most of my instructions I have printed in bold type:

EXPERIMENT!

That's why they call it antenna T H E O R Y.

But I like your phrase better. (Be a Marconi!) Is it trademarked yet??? Hi.

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AH6FC on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Good common sense article, thanks!
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by W8AD on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the nice comments. Nice to hear from friends like Alan and Paul and others that I've known, e-mailed or worked on the air over the years.

However, I need to clarify an important point about the article itself. I tried to indicate that these ideas are just meant to help out, and that you should buy whatever product you like, from whomever you like. It was NOT meant to be a "commercial".

Any of us in the business talk to many, many people over the course of the years and gain a LOT of insight about applications, more from customers than from ourselves. As a result, those of us in the business tend pick up a lot of tips and hints, whether it's about antennas, equipment or whatever. I believe we should share these ideas with others.

Instead of being given the "shot" that it's just a "full page ad", I would encourage anyone else to do an article and share their hints and tips. It's a shame to get these kind of comments when we're just trying to share. I hope anyone else in the business would come forth with their knowledge. I don't care what you make.

Don, W8AD
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by W6TH on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
I want to make two corrections to my previous post:

should read reactance and the second is article.

Watched the football on tv last night and went to bed later, much later.

I think I am now awake.
.:
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by EXWA2SWA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
My attic installation of an Alpha-Delta DX4020 was my only antenna for about 18 months, and with it, I qualified for WAS (I've GOTTA get those cards checked!), WAC (same story) and about 70% of DXCC.

I know Don's remarks about such installations are spot on: I do get some coupling on 40m, as well as some near-field RF in the shack. 20m works much better, but still, certainly not as well as if the wire were up in the air and clear.

The other side of the coin, though, is that my water heater, electrical service lines, gas line, 'phone & internet lines and HVAC ducting might just be my best antennas without me knowing it. 'Course, an MFJ-259B doesn't have a water-heater connection ...

To my mind, Don's article bridges the gap between the most desirable and the most practical, and I appreciate his willingness to give us, for-nothin'-free, the benefit of his many years and dollars of
experimentation.

73,
Jim KE5CXX
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by W9WHE-II on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
For the antenna restricted, just remember this:

"everything works, its just a question of how well".

You CAN work lots of domestic and DX stations with efficent wire antennas. I have confirmed 256 using a fan dipole laying flat on my roof. YOU can do the same. Restrictions or no restrictions, there are low profile dipole antennas that work.
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WY3X on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>We don't do hamfests, so it must've been a knock-off >version. (And we don't do kits....)

Must be a so-called "knock-off".

>Try this experiment: Take a dipole with insulated wire >and cut it for 75/80 meters. (130 feet.) Now.....run >the wire through the end insulators and run it back >parallel towards the center insulator....but do NOT >connect to the center insulator's solder points. Do >that to both sides. This gives you a total length of >65 feet....while using 130 feet of wire.
>
>Now using your theory about excess wire, this should >be resonant on 75/80 meters because of the total >length of wire used....right? But....it is actually >resonate on 40 meters. Why? Because the run of wire >stopped at 65 feet(32.5 fee per side). Even though the >conductor continued on for another 65 feet, the >"element" ceased at 32.5 feet....each side. Same >principal with the excess wire in the "Yo-Yo's". The >antenna element stops at the point where the Yo-Yo >ends.

The yo-yos in the version I purchased were mounted at the center insulator, not the ends. If they had been at the ends, I would have not had any problems. I think that's what you're saying, and you and I are in perfect agreement on that.

>I suspect what really happened in your "knock-off" >version is that some cheap wire was used, and you had >a busted wire/open connection somewhere underneath the >insulation.

No, the wire actually was very high quality silver-plated stuff. Not sure who the knock-off maker is. I bought mine around 6 years ago. The yo-yos were of nice quality too. The wire was uninsulated. The instructions stated to unroll what was needed until you find a colored piece of heat-shrink tubing, and wrap the wire at that point around a screw and hold in place with a wing nut. Pull out the wire on the other yo-yo until you find the matching color heat shrink tubing. This effectively places the coils at the feedpoint, not at the ends of the antenna (as in your design?). Coils at end = good. Coils at feedpoint = bad. (Leftover wire = coils)

>73, Bill - WA8MEA
>http://HamRadioFun.com

I don't remember the website of the company I purchased from, but they had detailed photographic assembly instructions. The item was well-constructed, just "backwards" from your design (what it needed to be).

Oh, and the wire folded back on itself but not re-attached at the feedpoint? Should provide linear loading and lower the frequency of the antenna.

If you want photos of the one I have, let me know.

73, -Web (KR4WM)
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by N6AJR on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>>>For the antenna restricted, just remember this:

"everything works, its just a question of how well".

You CAN work lots of domestic and DX stations with efficent wire antennas. I have confirmed 256 using a fan dipole laying flat on my roof. YOU can do the same. Restrictions or no restrictions, there are low profile dipole antennas that work. <<<
===============================================================================
my first ever antenna in 1978 was a 10-80 5 band fan dipole made of magnet wire and laid on 2 inch square kiddy alphabet blocks on a wood shingle roof with nails in to the roof to hols the ends, and a set of 1/4 wave counterpoises off the back of the ft 101 ee and I worked dx ans us quite well, this was on the roof of a 5 unit appartment building, with out permission. I just did it.

any antenna will work some better than others..
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
73, -Web (KR4WM)
-------------------
OK!!!!! Yep. I know exactly who you are speaking about now.

Yep. He mounted them "bass ackwards". And so in this particular case, it would act like an inductor.

It was a very professional looking product, but again....it was built backwards. I never did understand that. I do believe he was interested in doing the mechanics so professionally, that he plum forgot about the electrical principals involved.

Thanks for clarifying....

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WB2WIK on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints Reply
by AI4NS on November 12, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
You absolutely CAN NOT run antennas over powerlines. Not only is it unsafe, it is probably illegal.<

::Can you site the law this violates? Or, even what is unsafe about it?

Here in L.A. where I live, the utility companies themselves routinely run telephone and cable television drops over power lines. Sometimes paralleled and higher, sometimes just crossing them. It's not a violation of any statute we have here.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AA4PB on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What is unsafe about it is that if your antenna wire breaks it could fall over the power line and if it cuts thru the power line insulation, bring power into the shack on the antenna feed line.

I don't have the NEC handy, but as I recall there are requirements about placing antennas in the vicinity of power lines.
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by W6TH on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
.
Many do not need a high performance antenna to be heard today with all of these big spenders of antenna gear including the towers of 200 plus feet.

Years ago we had no problem with working dx with the exception there wasn't that many around compared to this day and age.

Today all that is needed is a half wave antenna with 20 to 25 watts and the big boys will hear you and you will get that 59/599 report to keep you happy.

I believe the fun is gone today when along comes tv, computers, etc., when back in the old days all we had was bcst band and ham radio plus our movies for 15 cents and get a dish if you went on a Wednesday.

Years gone by, I could leave my door open to any brother ham operator, but today I keep my doors locked and use a post office address to live in discreet, the warmth and discreet elegance of a civilized home.

Give me the good old days, where men were men and women loved them that way.
73 my friends, W6th.
.:
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WB2WIK on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints Reply
by AA4PB on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What is unsafe about it is that if your antenna wire breaks it could fall over the power line and if it cuts thru the power line insulation, bring power into the shack on the antenna feed line.

I don't have the NEC handy, but as I recall there are requirements about placing antennas in the vicinity of power lines.<

::I don't have it handy, either, but it's easy to look up. However, NEC isn't a law, it's closer to a list of suggestions drafted over many years by a fire prevention agency. Los Angeles had adopted parts of it into local enforceable code, and has not adopted other parts at all. When I read NEC, and I have, it sounds to me like it was written by insurance actuaries, and maybe it was, since much of it has no apparent foundation in any engineering pricinples.

::In any case, it is very common here that telephone and cable lines are run directly above, directly below, and parallel to or crossing over power lines in all residential neighborhoods. More so in industrial zones.

::I might also say that life's too short to worry about this kind of thing. If my antenna falls across the power drop, and the power drop (which is insulated to about 20 kV) happens to be stripped bare of insulation at that specific point, and my rig's not grounded, and I'm on the air and holding a metal microphone, and if...and if...as my Dad used to say, "If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus." If I couldn't run wire antennas over power drops, I wouldn't have any wire antennas at all, because there's no place else to run them. But, I do have wire antennas. I use insulated antenna wire rated ~1200V DWV, but frankly that shouldn't matter since my power drop has about one inch thick insulation on each wire, and those are spiral wrapped around an uninsulated ground conductor which is also the messenger cable for the two phase lines.

::I'd hate to think not running an antenna wire over a power drop is keeping any hams off the air, but maybe it is. If so, they don't know what they're missing.

::Just a counterpoint!

Steve WB2WIK/6



 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by QSYING on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WA8MEA:

<<Great full page ad for Alpha Delta.

Now....if you are short on space, need portability, need a light load to carry in your back-pack, want a FULL SIZE dipole instead of a lossy coil/trap antenna or just like to set your SWR in the snap of a finger, check out just one of Alpha Delta's competitors. (And their Eham reviews are posted at their website, too.)

Oh....and they make great "stocking stuffers"!

Http://HamRadioFun.com

73, Bill - WA8MEA >>

This is a good article, full of useful information. It does not appear to be a sales presentation.

However, your comments are neither helpful nor germane. Bad-mouthing competitors' products is unprofessional. Why not point out features that you feel make your product better? Ultimately, the user will decide.

73,

Bob - KC9JUB
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Bob - KC9JUB: Bad-mouthing competitors' products is unprofessional.
--------------------------
Wow! Some of the folks at Eham.net have formed really super thin skin! If those three words are construed as "bad mouthing", I think I understand why some nut cases come out of the stands and beat up the opposing team's Little League Coach.

Using the term "full page ad" is bad mouthing?? Tongue in cheek...maybe...at the most....

Unprofessional? Better talk to Coke, Pepsi, Progressive, Budweiser and a few other advertisers before the next Super Bowl! The "bad mouthing" they make towards their competitors just might cost them millions in sales. (NOT!)

In fact, we just watched some wonderful evidence that bad mouthing DOES work. (It happened one week ago tomorrow.)

But I digress. And for the record once again, it was hardly "bad mouthing".



73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by QSYING on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
<<But I digress. And for the record once again, it was hardly "bad mouthing".



73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com>>


Opinions do differ. I don't buy anything from smart-mouthed people.

KC9JUB
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 13, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Gee, Bob.....

"Sounds like somebody has got a case of the Mondays!"

**I will give a FREE 40 meter QRP transmitter to the first person who e-mails me the name of the movie the above famous line originates from! -- ars_wa8mea@netzero.com

Have a cold beer Bob, and then call it a night. You'll feel better in the mornin'.....

Take care and 73.

Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WA8MEA on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Dan - AB0RE -- come on down! You are our winner on the second annual HamRadioFun give-away!

(Applause from the crowd! A wreath is brought to the stage and handed off to Dan. The crowd goes wild with cheers! The crowd is now yelling; "Dan's the man! Dan's the man!")

Yes, Dan...you are the first to answer correctly about "a case of the Mondays." That line came from the 1999 flick and cult favorite: OFFICE SPACE.

Now for my next trivia question, how did Samir Nagheenanajar refer to our fine, national penitentiary system? (JUST KIDDING!!)

I will get your 40 meter QRP transmitter off to you by the weekend, Dan.

This was fun. I've done this in the past....and it has always been fun and unique. I pop into a discussion...have a little fun...and then find an opportunity to hand out a little "door prize".

Thanks to all who participated. I will contact all participants by e-mail individually. I even received a DX reply...that was correct...from jolly old England!

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by QSYING on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
WA8MEA:

<<Now for my next trivia question, how did Samir Nagheenanajar refer to our fine, national penitentiary system? (JUST KIDDING!!)>>

I believe it was Michael Bolton who referred to the prison:

<<Michael Bolton: We get caught laundering money, we're not going to white-collar resort prison. No, no, no. We're going to federal POUND ME IN THE (deleted) prison. Samir: I don't want to go to ANY prison.>>

I don't have a case of the Tuesdays.

73,

Bob - KC9JUB
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KT8K on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
My new 80/40 (fan) dipole with the 80m ends hanging down about 20+ feet due to lot size limitations works Great. I probably give up a little bandwidth, but ... the proof is in the pudding. If your lot is too small, don't despair, just get it as high as you can and don't be afraid to let the ends hang down.
best rx & 73 de kt8k - Tim
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KT8K on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I didn't see anyone mention ridge vents in roof peaks. These vents often have a metal screen to keep the bats etc. out, and that screen may run continuously for the length of the peak. If you put in an attic antenna or one close to the roof, you may want to get up in there and cut the screen into non-resonant pieces.

I did once consider cutting the ridge vent screen in the middle and feeding it with some twin lead from an automatic tuner, either in the attic or in the shack. When you've got lemons ...

73 & best rx de kt8k - Tim
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by K1DA on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I have seen twin lead run on the ground and over tent frames and other sundry metal objects with causing tuning troubles for field day antennas. The metal proximinity
effect warnings may stem from when twin lead was used for uhf tv. Thought it was true myself until I saw
how well our antennas worked in spite of the routing.
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AE6RO on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I would NEVER run a wire antenna across a powerline or or service drop.
You never know if some helpful squirrel or some other nightcrawling vermin might gnaw through the insulation. Another night it might cut the wire so it drops on your 220 volt line--when you're asleep or on vacation.
At best you'll pick up powerline noise lots better. At worst you'll be waiting for the next life to be a smarter ham. AE6RO
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KE6KSK on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
What effect would a 1/4 wave ground plane VHF antenna mounted 5 feet above an allbander dipole, have on the dipole?

Will
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by N3OX on November 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"What effect would a 1/4 wave ground plane VHF antenna mounted 5 feet above an allbander dipole, have on the dipole? "

None.
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WB2WIK on November 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints Reply
by AE6RO on November 14, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
I would NEVER run a wire antenna across a powerline or or service drop.
You never know if some helpful squirrel or some other nightcrawling vermin might gnaw through the insulation. Another night it might cut the wire so it drops on your 220 volt line--when you're asleep or on vacation.
At best you'll pick up powerline noise lots better. At worst you'll be waiting for the next life to be a smarter ham. AE6RO<

::Show me a picture of a 240v service drop that isn't insulated -- with 20kV minimum withstanding voltage insulation. This is ridiculous. 240v overhead service drops are normally wrapped around an uninsulated neutral (ground) cable that is also the messenger cable for the drop. If there were any insulation breaks, the service would be discontinued because the fuse at the transformer would open. What you're suggesting might happen is essentially impossible.
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AF0H on November 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
The absolute best wire antennas that i've ever used were a pair of Cage Dipoles. 4-wires with an 8" spread on 40-meters (1.3-1) at both band edges. And the 80-meter version had 4-wires with a 12" spread giving a 1.4:1 at the top (4.0) and a 1.8:1 at the bottom (3.5).

However - having recently moved and having no convenient dipole supports, i've purchased a Hy-Tower.

I'll see how it goes - might end up using it as a dipole support for more Cage's.

73 de
af0h - Rob
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AE6RO on November 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Well "essentially impossible" means it isn't impossible. I was in a situation where I could run one leg of a wire antenna over the service drop. Considering the risk the small benefit isn't worth it.
AE6RO
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by AI4NS on November 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
For clarification, I was referring to the uninsulated HV wire, not the service drop. My dad and I had a friend that was a CB'er that had a vertical antenna of some sort, and the mast broke, and the antenna hit the HV powerline. Blew the radio off the desk, and in to the wall. He had just been sitting in front of it, and would have got it in the face. Interesting sight to see a blackened radio and the imprint of one in the wallboard.

Mike
AI4NS
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by N3OX on November 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
"Well "essentially impossible" means it isn't impossible."

Steve's got a good point here, and those who are suffering from trying to squash too much antenna into too little space because they won't get near their power drop should consider his point carefully and think about the real risk vs. benefit in their particular situation.

Probably not productive to base decisions on infintesimal risks, unless the benefit is also truly infintesimal. If you can put up a full size 80m dipole with one end at 50 feet and the other at 35 feet if you cross your power drop but can only put a half size, heavily loaded antenna with one end at 35 feet and the other at 6 feet, you might REALLY want to think about Steve's comments.

Of course, as another poster indicated, stay the hell away from the uninsulated medium voltage lines, but that *should* be common sense, at least in the ham community... we know stuff about voltage and current and insulation, right?

73,
Dan
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WB2WIK on November 16, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints Reply
by AI4NS on November 15, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
For clarification, I was referring to the uninsulated HV wire, not the service drop. My dad and I had a friend that was a CB'er that had a vertical antenna of some sort, and the mast broke, and the antenna hit the HV powerline. Blew the radio off the desk, and in to the wall. He had just been sitting in front of it, and would have got it in the face. Interesting sight to see a blackened radio and the imprint of one in the wallboard.<

::Indeed a distribution line is not a service drop. My medium tension lines that distribute power to the pole transformers here operates at 7200Vrms. If a fuse blows, it sounds like a grenade went off. Those lines are often not insulated at all; I guess the feeling is that the taps, splices and transformer attachments would be so difficult to properly insulate, why bother insulating the wiring? You don't want to run antennas close to those lines. I was referring only to the standard 240V service drop, which are always very well insulated and pretty easy to inspect for faults, visually. If the insulation starts to crack, which might happen after about 40 years, you can call the utility company and they'll replace the drop for free: They own it.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KC8VWM on November 16, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
My dad and I had a friend that was a CB'er that had a vertical antenna of some sort, and the mast broke, and the antenna hit the HV powerline. Blew the radio off the desk, and in to the wall. He had just been sitting in front of it, and would have got it in the face. Interesting sight to see a blackened radio and the imprint of one in the wallboard.

-------

Ahhh.. the memories. :)

I can assure you from personal experience that an antenna coming into contact with a 44,000 volts overhead line will do the following:

1) The antenna will weld itself together. IOncluding any support structure it's attached.
2) It will weld the PL259 to the back of the radio equipment and melt the equipment like a marshmellow.
3) It will not stop there.
4) The feedline going into your home will become a conduit to any aluminum siding on your house and you will observe what appears as black weld tack marks along all the joints of aluminum siding, rain gutters and anything else that's metal.
5) It will damage your house wiring when the energy travels beyond your radio equipment and through the power supply (Or what you thought was a power supply) You will observe the wall outlet will start smoldering behind the wall. That's exactly when you will call the fire department and when they will come into your home with large axes and start tearing out the wall in your shack.

So you still wan't to risk it?

Been there... Done that.

73 Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by WB2WIK on November 17, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints Reply
by KC8VWM on November 16, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
So you still wan't to risk it?<

::Charles, nobody here even suggested anything like this.

I said it's perfectly safe to run an antenna wire over a residential service drop, which is 240V, not 44kV! And not only is it perfectly safe, our major service providers including the telephone and cable companies do
it all the time. Doesn't even violate any code.

WB2WIK/6
 
HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by K5NR on November 22, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Good report ! In my 40+ years of ham radio, I have found myself still looking for the "perfect antenna" or maybe near perfect.. these are Good solid guidelines and principles. But bottom line... don't get too hung up on finding the ideal installation. Just do your best and get the wire up as high a you can !
Thanks for taking the time to write on this topic !
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by N4NSS on November 23, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Parts for that Yo-Yo antenna can be found at Wal Mart for a $1.50 each. Make your own for cheap.....
 
RE: HF Antenna Installation Hints  
by KD7EAI on November 24, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
>I don't have the NEC handy, but as I recall there are requirements about placing antennas in the vicinity of power lines.<

Article 810.13 (NEC 205) states, "... antennas and lead-in conductors shall not cross over open conductors of electric light or power circuits and shall be kept well away from all such circuits so as to avoid the possibility of accidental contact."


> However, NEC isn't a law, it's closer to a list of suggestions drafted over many years by a fire prevention agency.<

Actually, the NEC is the law where it is adopted.


> When I read NEC, and I have, it sounds to me like it was written by insurance actuaries, and maybe it was, since much of it has no apparent foundation in any engineering pricinples.<

It is written by committee with input from the industry. The comittees and its members are listed right after the table of contents.

Article 90.1(B) (NEC 2005) states the purpose of the code is safety. Installations are to be essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

>::In any case, it is very common here that telephone and cable lines are run directly above, directly below, and parallel to or crossing over power lines in all residential neighborhoods. More so in industrial zones. <

Article 90.2(B) (NEC 2005) states that electric utilities and comunication utilities are not covered by the NEC.






 
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