Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

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Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

Larry Bailey (K7LRB) on January 30, 2007
View comments about this article!

It is with great trepidation that I submit this post. First, it is NOT an attempt to start a flame war nor to criticize anyone's preconceived notions or cherished opinions. It is a serious attempt to answer a question about digital modes and what constitutes one. More specifically, is CW (or, more correctly, Morse Code) a digital mode? I am not proposing a position either way. I simply have some nagging questions to which I cannot postulate a compelling answer. Many are emphatic about a position, one way or the other. There are those who insist that CW, henceforth referred to as “Morse”, IS, in fact, a digital mode. Some are highly respected and, presumably, reliable sources, i.e.: the ARRL at the following link, http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/digital.html . Click on A four part introduction to digital communication . Many emphatically insist on just the opposite, that Morse is NOT a digital mode. Here are some of my own “preconceived” notions and observations. Please keep in mind folks, I am sincerely looking for help, not flames.

I have been under the impression that “digital”, as used in technology, refers to the process of converting data into information that a computer can use and manipulate and that currently “digitizing” data is accomplished using a “binary” system, that is, only two possible states, ones and zeroes. Apparently this is the easiest system for computer processors. Each state of one or zero, on or off, represents a “bit” and a specified number of bits, typically 8, equals one “byte” of information, for example, a letter of the alphabet. Here is but one link which describes this, http://computer.howstuffworks.com/bytes.htm . Clearly, ASCII fits the truest form of “digital” and, in fact, the actual “digitized” information can be sent, as digitized information, over the air. I read somewhere that ASCII has been around since about 1939.

Can information that is NOT digital BECOME digitized? Obviously yes! Photography has been around for well over a hundred years. If I were to take a picture on a film camera, then take the same picture on a digital camera and print it out on quality paper, could you tell the difference? If done well, probably not. If I sent you the digital picture via email, you would be REQUIRED to have a computer convert it back to a picture you can see. Is the film picture digital? I presume “no” because I do NOT need a computer, a digital capable device, to view the picture. Can voice become digital” Obviously yes, digital AM broadcasts are in the works if not already being transmitted. There are proponents of “digital SSB” on the ham bands. Would that be a “digital” mode? Well, the name says it, “digital SSB”. In fact, if you hear it on the air you cannot “copy” it without the aid of a computer to “un-digitize” it. Does that make my voice a digital mode? Of course not, you do NOT need a computer to understand what I am saying to you face to face OR via the airwaves using AM, FM or SSB. Now…. if I speak a LANGUAGE you don't understand, then no transfer of information will take place, not because you can't hear me, but because you don't speak the language. Bear with me, more on that later.

I recently read a comment that said, “CW is the only digital mode that can be translated by a computer or human brain”. The author subsequently acquiesced to a correction that what he really meant was Morse. Well, the same can be said about the human voice. It can be understood without the aid of a computer, OR it can be “translated” by a computer. For example, when I write a letter I simply speak into a microphone and the computer prints what I say onto the screen, later to be printed on paper. ASCII, Amtor, Pactor, etc. MUST be “translated” by the computer, no way I can do that just by listening to it. Now to Morse!

It appears that the position FOR Morse being a digital mode is that it has also has two states. On and off, as in, “key down, key up” or “carrier going out, carrier not going out”. Using that logic, I have a digital horn in my car, “horn sounding, horn silent”. Also, I have digital lights in my kitchen, “lights on, lights off”. In fact, I can send information, data, using each of those. IN FACT, I can “speak” Morse, right? Didahdit ! Does all that make my car horn, my kitchen lights or even my voice a digital mode? Hmmm, I don't see the bits and bytes. Now here's a “kicker” If you are unable to “copy” Morse Code, you will not understand what I am honking or blinking OR “didahing”. It's the same as if I were speaking to you in Chinese. Assuming you are unable to “copy”, that is, understand the LANGUAGE of Chinese, you will still not be able to “read” what I am saying. From that, I have no trouble at all accepting that Morse is a “language”. Here's a stretch for you. Good old Paul Revere used lanterns in a tower to “transmit” information, “one if by land, two if by sea” (WOW! Two states, one lantern or two…. DIGITAL!) Does that make lanterns a digital mode?

But Larry, a computer can copy Morse. Well, maybe so, maybe not! Here's the setup; I connect two computers together, each set up to operate RTTY. Now, the reason I hooked them up directly is simply to cut out the RF part, no fading or other “atmospherics”. I can type away and the receiving computer will not miss a letter because the data is being sent digitally using a specific combination of bits and bytes. Now I will do the same thing “over the air”. Nothing has changed except that atmospheric conditions can “booger up” the data on its way to the other computer. Also, no matter how hard I try, I cannot “read” the data I hear on my receiver just by listening. The computer MUST “translate” it for me. Let's try CW, that is, Morse. If I hook the computers together, remove the atmospherics, and each computer is set up with a Morse program, I can type away and the text will be “perfect”. HOWEVER, if I hook up a key to one of them and start keying away, the receiving computer MAY be able to copy my Morse IF I am sending nearly perfectly. I can put my own “flavor” or “swing”, as some long time CW ops call it, to my sending and the receiving computer may not copy at all! It would appear to me that the reason no data is being received is because the transmitted signal was not “digitized”, it is NOT being sent in a digital mode. Also, when Morse is sent over the air, it again is not digitized, I can copy it all day long, no matter if the sender and receiver are both using Morse programs. Again, this assumes I understand the “language” of Morse.

It would also appear to me that some of the soundcard modes may not actually be “digital” but simply various methods of modulating a carrier, even “pulsing” a carrier (Hellschreiber). It is also noteworthy that the current amateur radio band plans distinguish between CW and “data” modes. If CW (Morse) is a digital mode, why the need to distinguish it from, say, RTTY or Pactor?

So there you have it. I hope I have successfully conveyed my confusion as to whether or not Morse is a digital mode. I welcome opinions, but am more interested in facts and sources for those facts, and further information. I truly respect that there are many, highly qualified and intelligent people who visit this website and I am sincerely interested in your assistance. Sadly, I have no doubt there are those who's only interest is to start a fight, name call, disparage others and otherwise reduce ANY post to a flame war. Please don't do that.

Thanks and 73,

de Larry

Member Comments:

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Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KF4OMY on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Larry, the answer is Yes....and No. You were correct when saying that being digital means a computer has to convert the information from '1s' & '0s' into a format WE can understand. At that point any information is digital. This CAN also be done with Morse code using software to send and recieve because the software is converting the 'dits' & 'dahs' into '1s' & '0s', however if you cut out the computer factor, then there is no more conversion from '1s' & '0s' so we can understand it (now it is simply a sound), hence it is no longer a digital mode.

I'll use a photograph as an example like you did. If I take a photograph with a 35mm camera that develops only from film, then I simply have a 'photograph'....no computers involved. Now, if I take that photograph I just developed and 'scan' it into a computer, the computer will turn it into a bunch of '1s' & '0s' that can only be decoded again by the apropriate pictre viewing software. Now this photograph has become digital because without the software to decode the '1s' & '0s' we can no longer see the picture in it's present format.

73's and keep pondering,
ERIC

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W8JI on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

CW over our transmitters is actually 100% amplitude modulation or AM.

It has a carrier and upper and lower sidebands. The sidebands are present ONLY when the carrier is changing level (turning off and on) and the BANDWIDTH of the sidebands is determined by the shape of the rise and fall when the sidebands are being generated.

So a CW system is actually a digital mode at the key, 100% modulated AM at the antenna, an off and on tone modulation after the BFO mixing, and words or letters after the operator hears it.

The odd thing about all this is after almost 100 years of CW transmitters many books and many people including engineers at radio manufacturers still don't get the idea that CW is 100% modulated AM, and the bandwidth is determined entirely by the rise and fall shape and time (assuming the transmitter has a stable oscillator and no gross defects causing spurious signals).

73 Tom

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KB9CRY on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Larry, I agree with Eric in the it's both. But first why do you ask the following?

attempt to answer a question about digital modes and what constitutes one. More specifically, is CW (or, more correctly, Morse Code) a digital mode?

I didn't know that there was this grand debate.

Larry, you're not a real young guy so you should know the answers. One has to go back to the beginning of computers to find the "answer" (if there is one real answer). In the beginning, operators used a convention of dit and dahs to send coded sounds over the airwaves. In our brains, we humans had the unique opportunity to translate these sounds into meaningful conversation. Then the inventors of computers started thinking about how they could make a machine that could mimic the human brain. Early on using relays and then later semiconductors to establish an On and Off state, they could "program" the computer to interpret what different on and off state combnations meant and output that as information we humans could understand.

So I think your real dilemma is what is the definition of digital. If digital is defined as combinations of on and off states to produce meaningful information, then yes CW is digital (the human brain is the computer here). If digital means having to do with circuits, etc., then no CW is not because it's sound based.

I don't lose any sleep over the differences.

Phil

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"It appears that the position FOR Morse being a digital mode is that it has also has two states."

Hmm... what about three state logic?

Dan

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KB9CRY on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Oh, and another historical fact. What hobby do you think the inventors of computers had? Amateur Radio.

Let's take that further. What hobby did the inventors of the Internet (based on Packet Radio) have? Amateur Radio

What hobby do the inventors of the cell phone or the cable system have (I know these guys.)? Amateur Radio

So does it make sense that Morse Code or Packet technology were used elsewhere?

Phil

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS !

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

CW Morse code is now obsolete, apart from amateur recreational use and other purposes, including navigational radio beacons, land mobile transmitter identification.Once widely used for flashing light communication between naval ships,it has fallen into disuse by the U.S. Navy.

CW Morse code can be transmitted in a number of ways: originally as electrical pulses along a telegraph wire, but also as an audio tone, as a radio signal with short and long pulses or tones, or as a mechanical or visual signal (e.g. a flashing light) using devices like an Aldis lamp or a heliograph.

CW Morse code is transmitted using just two states — on and off — it was an early form of a digital code (however, it is technically not binary, as the pause lengths are also required to decode the information).

International CW Morse code is composed of 7 elements:

1.short mark, dot or 'dit' (·)
2.longer mark, dash or 'dah' (-)
3.intra-character gap (between the dots and dashes 4.within a character)
5.short gap (between letters)
6.medium gap (between words)
7.long gap (between sentences)

Morse code is the only digital modulation mode designed to be easily read by humans without a computer, making it appropriate for sending automated digital data in voice channels, as well as making it ideal for emergency signaling, such as by way of improvised energy sources that can be easily "keyed" such as by supplying and removing electric power (e.g. by switching a breaker on and off). However, the variable length of the Morse characters made it hard to adapt to automated communication, so it has been largely replaced by more regular formats, including the Baudot code and ASCII.

What is called CW Morse code today actually differs somewhat from what was originally developed by Alfred Vail in collaboration with Morse. In 1848 a refinement of the code sequences, including changes to eleven of the letters, was developed in Germany and eventually adopted as the worldwide standard as "International Morse Code".

Morse's original code specification, largely limited to use in the United States, became known as Railroad or American Morse code, and is now very rarely used.

A digital system is one that uses discrete values (often electrical voltages), especially those representable as binary numbers, or non-numeric symbols such as letters or icons, for input, processing, transmission, storage, or display, rather than a continuous spectrum of values (ie, as in an analog system).

The distinction of "digital" versus "analog" can refer to method of input, data storage and transfer, or the internal working of a device. The word comes from the same source as the word digit and digitus: the Latin word for finger (counting on the fingers) as these are used for discrete counting.

The word digital is most commonly used in computing and electronics, especially where real-world information is converted to binary numeric form as in digital audio and digital photography. Such data-carrying signals carry one of two electronic or optical pulses, logic 1 (pulse present) or 0 (pulse absent). The term is often meant by the prefix "e-", as in e-mail and ebook, even though not all electronic systems are digital.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KX8N on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Yes, 100% digital.

Dots are zeros.
Dashes are ones.
The way the zeros and ones are interepreted is totally irrelevant. And where a computer takes a string of ones and zeros and converts that into an ascii value that we can understand as a letter, number, or prosign, the human brain converts the morse code ones and zeros directly to those characters.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W9PMZ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"CW over our transmitters is actually 100% amplitude modulation or AM. "

An AM signal, in time domain,

y(t) = C*sin(wct) + M*(cos(p+(wm-wc)*t)))/2 - M*(cos(p+(wm+wc)*t)))/2

where wc is the radian carrier frequency
where wm is the radian modulating frequency
C is the carrier amplitude constant
M is the modulating amplitude constant

If the scheme is an RF genertor, turned off and on, then M is 0. I don't see how you arrive at 100% modulation if there is no M (modulating signal).

I will also refer you to this web site where a 100% AM modulated signal is display:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplitude_modulation

What they show really doesn't look like a CW signal (to me anyway) and would probably earn you a citation from the FCC if operated in the CW subbands.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by NI0C on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG:
When you quote someone else's words, you need to acknowledge that fact by using quotation marks and citing your source-- in this case Wikipedia.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by HA6SST on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

No

Morse code has three states, dot, dash and space. Digital modes only have two states (for example RTTY with a mark and a space tone).

HA6SST

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>Digital modes only have two states (for example RTTY with a mark and a space tone).

What about QAM? It's digital and has four states. 256QAM has 256 states, also digital.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KT8K on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Morse code is digital, IMHO. It is a variable length code, and is not foreign to computers at all.

An example:
Back in the early '80's I worked for a genius-programmer who got his ham license, not only because he was interested in radio, but also because he had a ham friend hundreds of miles away on the East Coast with whom he wanted to trade computer files. At the time, 300 baud ASCII dial-up was still pretty standard (1200 baud was Hot Stuff!) and moving files via the internet always hit that bottleneck. The IBM PC was new, and included a tape storage interface with a relay and 8-bit D/A-A/D circuitry, however. So my friend (who shall remain nameless for reasons that may become obvious) wrote software to use the tape control relay in a PC to key an HF transceiver. Subsequently, he and his buddy used it to move files at the top end of the 40m novice band at (they claimed) about 500 WPM. (Don't try this at home -- A mental estimate makes me think they probably broke bandwidth-related rules by a significant margin.) If that doesn't sound like CW is digital, though, I don't know what does.

Another example: As a computer tech back in the '70's, I found I could read a little (very little) ASCII at 110 baud, which was the highest dial-up data speed available at the time, and used by most terminals (including teletypes) in the computer industry. Incidentally, earlier teletypes had used the Baudot 5-level code at 110 baud (bits per second, a term changed to commemorate the work of Mr. Baudot himself), but 5 bits only allow a limited character set, while ASCII's 8 bits allow a much larger one - a big advantage. Also, early teletype operation did not involve computers (which weren't available in a form usable for digital communications yet) and generally only communicated with each other.

Although some of the computer gear I worked on in the late '70's still had Baudot capability, that was dropped pretty quickly as ASCII became king and computer timesharing networks became the vogue. The point is that they could have used Morse, though it would have been more painful for the engineers and programmers. Today, however, using object oriented programming and a myriad of other advancements, it would be pretty easy to handle data in Morse code (until you got to the pictures and graphics ... but I'm sure clever programmers could fix that pretty quickly if there was a good reason to do so).

So ... yes, Morse CW is digital, and, yes, I can read it, and that makes it all the more "cool" and fun, to me anyway.
Hope to catch you all on the CW bands sometime soon.
Best rx & 73 de kt8k - Tim

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>It has a carrier and upper and lower sidebands. The sidebands are present ONLY when the carrier is changing level (turning off and on) and the BANDWIDTH of the sidebands is determined by the shape of the rise and fall when the sidebands are being generated.

>So a CW system is actually a digital mode at the key, 100% modulated AM at the antenna, an off and on tone modulation after the BFO mixing, and words or letters after the operator hears it.

If CW is AM, then all of our other digital modes are AM. If you look at the spectra of PSK or RTTY signals, you'll see sidebands as well. Anything that is switched on and off has sidebands at some moment. PSK signals have two major components and then sidebands on each side created by non-linearities in the transmitter and receiver.

I don't know if you're implying that CW isn't digital because it has sidebands, but if that was the case, no digital mode could be considered digital. I don't think digital ever meant an emission with no sidebands, it's referring to a signal with a finite number of distinct states as opposed to an analog signal which has an infinite number of states.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N00B on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Morse code has three states, dot, dash and space. Digital modes only have two states (for example RTTY with a mark and a space tone). "

The states are the signal levels. Dots and dashes are the same state, a "1". Binary data streams can also have some 1 or 0 states longer than the rest for synchronization, etc.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KF4HR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

This is a fun question! It seems there are arguments on both sides. Perhaps a bigger question is, why does anyone care? The FCC specifies where CW can be run within the spectrum and by which class license class. Argue as you may... that's about it! On to the next question... let's see now..., Black Holes! Personally, I'm not for them, or against them. :^))

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K8MHZ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Morse code has three states, dot, dash and space. Digital modes only have two states (for example RTTY with a mark and a space tone)."

You are confusing 'digital' with 'binary'.

All digital means is that there are discrete states. The number of states can be two or more. Two state digital is binary digital.

If a person does not know what a discrete state is they do not really know what digital means.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W9OY on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

In the 60's I had a friend who was a hi speed CW op. He taught himself to copy RTTY in his head.

Is RTTY a digital mode?

He used the same head, and the same RX to copy both modes.

73 W9OY

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by SM0AOM on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Morse code is very much a digital mode.

The characters are composed of two states or symbols;
"Mark" (key down) and "Space" (key up).

"Dots" are one time unit of mark, and "Dashes" are
three time units of mark.

Intersymbol spaces are one space unit long,
and intercharacter spaces are three space units.
Finally the word spaces are seven space units.

All the timing relationships can be derived from the unit mark/space symbol or signalling element.

What makes Morse special, is that the character length
is variable, and that there is a three mark combination that has has been given a special name; "Dash".

Regarding the modulation, "on/off telegraphy" can be considered as 100% AM with a square wave as the modulating waveform. (Quote from a compendium in a pre-war Swedish radio course: "Telegraphy is effectively square-wave modulated AM;, which makes it our toughest modulation problem")

The spectrum from such a modulation would in theory
extend infinitely out from the center frequency, unless the keying waveform is suitably shaped.

A CCIR Recommendation quotes a suitable rise and fall time shaping for on/off telegraphy as 10% of the shortest signalling element length, which would mean
about 2.5 ms rise or fall times for reasonable keying speeds (40 Baud or 50 WPM in this example).

Preferred shapes in the time domain would be the Gauss error-function or a raised-cosine. This recommendation formed the requirements background for international type-acceptance criteria for i.a. marine radio equipment.

The occupied bandwidth in this case would be composed of the fundamental and harmonics of the keying waveform (40 baud or 20 Hz) spaced symmetrically around the carrier or center frequency;

2 x (20 * N) Hz

where N is the required number of harmonics of the keying waveform, which is considered as 3 for non-fading circuits ("soft keying") and 5 for fading circuits ("hard keying").

A properly shaped on/off telegraphy transmission of 40 Baud would then occupy 120 Hz in the first case and 200 Hz in the second.

73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"If the scheme is an RF genertor, turned off and on, then M is 0. I don't see how you arrive at 100% modulation if there is no M (modulating signal). "

No, M and the wm's have to be determined from the keying envelope.

You wrote down the equation for a single frequency sinusoidal amplitude modulation. The proper sum of the terms that you gave will give a CW waveform.

Think about the waveform you get when you modulate your AM transmitter with a 400Hz square wave at 100% modulation. What's it look like?

Then modulate your AM transmitter with, say, a 5Hz square wave at 100% modulation and only leave it on for four cycles. Looks like an H.

You don't detect it like you detect AM phone though. I don't know if that matters for the definition.

- - - - - -

A sensible, working definition in my mind is that digital modes are those sent and decoded requiring computer intervention and non-digital modes are those that aren't.

After all, for things we'd consider digital modes for SURE, like PSK31, it's all **analog** in between the D/A converter in the transmitting station's soundcard and the A/D converter at the RX station... the physical layer in all cases is analog.

You can make arguments, of course, based on the fact that CW has discrete states when sent, but that's misleading when applied to human copy.

Beginner CW ops hear dashes and dots and eventually letters, more experienced CW operators hear words and simple phrases. Conversational CW copied by a human is NOT decoded by detecting the individual bits and processing them that way, except at the very beginning.

It's an argument of definition, anyway, and we won't hash it out here, but maybe it's fun to try.

Dan

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by RADIOPATEL on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Hello everybody

I love CW and love it the way it it is. Do not want to even think in any other directions. why worry whether it seems digital or not? Any way I would like to know the voting in favour and against in this forum.

TNX & 73's

Dinesh

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"All digital means is that there are discrete states."

This is the crux. Does Morse over OOK CW, copied by a human, involve breaking anything down into discrete states? I don't think it necessarily does.

Honestly, head copying RTTY that's being whistled by your (admittedly very talented) friend isn't something I'd consider digital.

There may be discrete states involved in the sense that the brain, as a system that contains a finite number of cells, must have a finite number (it's a big one, I know) of possible states.

Now, Morse CODE is a DIGITAL CODE.

Morse over CW is not a DIGITAL MODE.

Dan

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KB1SF on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Of course it's a digital mode! We use our "digits" (fingers) to send it, don't we?

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W9PMZ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"If the scheme is an RF genertor, turned off and on, then M is 0. I don't see how you arrive at 100% modulation if there is no M (modulating signal). "

I was thinking about a quartz crystal being operated on 40M.

Even if you are driving the crystal hard to obtain a square wave to filter one of the harmonics there is still no moduation term.

I do agree that frequency mixing is a form of and that many transcievers qualify.

But I think I disagree to say "CW over our transmitters is actually 100% amplitude modulation or AM." is not always the case.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ

Morese Code is Morse Code.

by AI2IA on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

This issue a a fallacy. It is a non-issue.
Who really cares how you define things? It does not change the reality or the functionality of what you define.
Example: "In biology, the study of taxonomy is one of the most conventionally hierarchical kinds of knowledge, placing all living beings in a nested structure of divisions related to their probable evolutionary descent. Most evolutionary biologists assert a hierarchy extending from the level of the specimen (an individual living organism -- say, a single newt), to the species of which it is a member (perhaps the Eastern Newt), outward to further successive levels of genus, family, order, class, phylum, and kingdom."
The fallacy of the evolutionists is to define living things into a hierarchy. After that, they point to the hierarchy as proof that the living things are related.
This proves nothing.
Morse code is Morse Code. Define it as part of anything you please. It won't change anything, and it won't make any difference.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K8MHZ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Now, Morse CODE is a DIGITAL CODE.

Morse over CW is not a DIGITAL MODE."

That is some pretty grey area.

First, we need to address that fact that CW and Morse Code are two entirely different animals.

CW is a means of radio transmission. Continuous Wave pretty much means 'perfect' or 'sinusoidal' wave, as opposed to damped wave. Damped wave is the signal generated by a spark gap transmitter.

Morse is a code that can be sent via AM, CW, DW, DC, FM or any other mode that can relay time variable discrete states.

So, if Morse is sent using FM, does that make FM a digital mode?

The title is very confusing as it makes it appear that CW and Morse Code are one in the same, thus, I am not sure if the author is asking of CW is a digital mode or if Morse Code is a digital mode.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W6TH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

.
CW is not AM.

Amplitude modulation (AM) is a method of impressing data onto an alternating-current "Carrier". The highest frequency of the modulating data is normally less than 10 percent of the carrier frequency. The instantanous amplitude (overall signal power) varies depending on the instantaneous amplitude of the modulating data.

In AM, the carrier itself does not fluctuate in amplitude. Instead, the modulating data appears in the form of signal components at frequencies slightly higher and lower than that of the carrier. These components are called sidebands. The lower sideband appears at frequencies below the carrier frequency; the upper sideband appears at frequencies above the carrier frequency. The lower sideband and upper sideband are essentially "mirror images" of each other. The sideband power accounts for the variations in the overall amplitude of the signal.

RE: Morese Code is Morse Code.

by W4LGH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Quote~"“CW is the only digital mode that can be translated by a computer or human brain”~

This is true at Human speeds! However the computer is able to send and receive CW at speeds that the human mind could not copy. I did this experiment many years ago, back in 1985, when digital interfaces were getting popular with hams. We lived about a 1/4mile apart and experimented with RTTY/AMTOR and several others. We also tried CW, starting off @ 35wpm and slowly increased the speed to we had reached speed well over 100wpm, and the computer copied it fine. At this point, I do not think the human mind was able to decode CW. So at this point it could be considered a digital mode.

Actually all digital modes transmitted by hams are AM using FSK (frequency shift keying) which is a form of FM to transmit the itelligence. Digital in its purest form can NOT be transmitted. It must ride on a carrier of some form to be carried to the other end.
So the real question here is .. Is digital really digital? Personally I say it is just another form of modulating a carrier. And since a carrier has NO modulaion, it is neither AM or FM, that is determined on how it is modulated. Interesting discussion....

Maybe CW is the purest of Digital... since it is an act of the carrier being cut on and off @ a given rate and doesn't require any addition info to be carried with it?? Something to think about!!

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by SM0AOM on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I have to disagree.

If we look at modulation theory basics, the AM
waveform in the time domain is basically:

e(t) = [A + s(t)] cos(wt)

where A is the amplitude of the unmodulated carrier
and s(t) is the time domain representaion of the modulating signal.
s(t) can have any shape; nothing prevents it from being i.a. the sign function or the rectangular (unit pulse) function.

If we introduce a new term M which is the modulation index; M = |s(t)|/A and M <= 1 (this is required to avoid envelope distorsion), we can through algebraic and trigonometric manipulations end up in the
previous expression

e(t) = C*sin(wct) + M*(cos(p+(wm-wc)*t)))/2 - M*(cos(p+(wm+wc)*t)))/2

which is the familiar time domain representation of the carrier and sidebands.

We must however be aware that the M and wm terms in this equation have to be be replaced with all the amplitude and frequency coefficients respectively of the Fourier transform of the modulating signal, which for a zero rise and fall time square wave extend with a sin(x)/x envelope out to +/- infinity.

73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM

RE: Morese Code is Morse Code.

by W6TH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

.

Yes, "Morse Code is Morse Code". When sent with a hand key or bug, it is cw, but when sent with a computer, it then becomes digital.

What could be more simpler?

.:

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W9PMZ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

With regards to the keying envelope, interesting thought that I hadn't thought of, although it is I believe more difficult to think of. To account for the keying envelope I would think of an exponential signal as the coefficient, but of course an exponential signal can be thought of in terms of sine / cosine. But is it 100% modulation.......

73,

Carl - W9PMZ

Minds trapped in definitions.

by AI2IA on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Most of you just don't get it either with Morse Code or in life. You are snared by the tyranny of other people's definitions.

A definition is not a being. The "intellectuals" trap themselves and you with their myopic defintions. Go live life and forget their little hierarchies of words. Be a thinker, not an "intellectual." Go use Morse Code. Your transceiver knows where to put it. Don't define it. Do it! This issue is pure crap.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AA4LR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

The answer is an emphatic YES! As we typically use CW on the amatuer bands, there are actually two digital techniques used similtaneously.

First, there's the Morse Code itself. The method of encoding letters and numbers as a series of long and short pulses is known as base-band coding. Morse is no different than that Huffman, Reed-Solomon, ASCII or Baudot codes in this repect -- it's just a technique for encoding information.

Second, there's the method of modulating the transmitter. The term CW actually comes from ICW, or interrupted continuous wave. We typically modulate the transnmitter by taking the base-band Morse signal and use it to turn the transmitter on and off. This is also known as OOK or On-Off-Keying.

Early RTTY operators used OOK (they called it make-break) because FSK was not legal. You can also send CW using other techniques, such as FSK, PSK, or use a CW-modulated audio signal into an FM or AM transmitter. These are not typical, however.

While the bottom line is that CW is, indeed, a digital mode, the FCC regulates it differently. While other digital modes are limited to specific subbands on HF frequencies, CW is permitted everywhere (except 60m).

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE3HO on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I think that what Tom is saying regarding CW being an AM mode is this. In a theoretically ideal CW transmitter, when the key closes a pure un-modulated (constant amplitude and constant frequency) carrier is transmitted. When the key is open, no carrier is transmitted. In the real world, though, the carrier is not simply "there" or "not there". When the key closes there is some finite rise time for the carrier amplitude - its amplitude changes from zero to its full un-modulated value over a short period of time. When the key opens, the carrier amplitude decays over some finite time. Its amplitude goes from its full un-modulated value to zero over a short period of time. The amplitude of the carrier, therefor, has a time varying component, which by necessity generates upper and lower sidebands. It is interesting to note that as your keying speed increases, your occupied bandwidth increases also, both temporally (increased duty cycle) and in frequency domain as well (because the rise and fall of the carrier become a more significant portion of your total "on time" so the generated sidebands become a more significant portion of your total transmitted power).

73 - Jim

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KI0QM on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Very interesting question. First, I think we can dismiss all of the AM, PSK, QAM, 256AM etc talks because those all deal with modulation types instead of dealing with the issue of if something is digital or not. Morse code has three states; off, short and long. To my knowledge, everything we have that is stored "digitally" uses a two state system. This mostly comes from how computers were first designed and the limitation of a piece of core only being able to have the two states of energized and off.

If we say that a three-state or multi-state format is valid and thus say that Morse is in fact a digital mode, then what about a 26 state code. Would our letters be considered a digital mode then? Letters written on a piece of paper are not digital yet they can obviously be digitized.

My first reaction is that since you cannot store Morse code digitally (today anyway) then it is not digital. You can store a digital representation of it, but I am not aware of any system to store a three-state code. If you saved it on a computer today would be (ultimately) saving a binary code that had to be translated to Morse. Again back to the difference between digital and digitized.

But lets ask this question about TCP/IP. Is that digital? I think most of us would say yes. But that has so many states I can't even count them. Maybe binary is the only thing that is digital and everything else is just digitized.

Interesting topic!
73
Bob

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KB3LSR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I think CW is an analog mode. Reason being is while a computer could translate the "1's and 0's" of morse code into something we can understand, we can translate it ourselves, making the translation unnecessary. Of course, if you ask a computer guy, he'll give you this answer, if you ask a radio guy, he'll tell you it's digital.

And to the earlier post, my grandfather worked with Mauchley on designing the UNIVAC systems (Eckert and Mauchley designed the ENIAC at U Penn., the first "computer"). My grandfather is, nor ever was, a ham, and I still can't get him interested in it to this day.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE3HO on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Don't confuse "digital" with "binary". The two are separate. The computer that you are using right now is a binary digital computer. It stores and handles data coded in binary.

Many of our digital codes use binary coding - switching between two states, such as two audio frequencies. It could, however, switch between 3 or more states. It would still be digital, it just wouldn't be binary.

73 - Jim

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K7PEH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

<Quote>
Yes, "Morse Code is Morse Code". When sent with a hand key or bug, it is cw, but when sent with a computer, it then becomes digital.

What could be more simpler?
</Quote>

Simpler would be to say that using CW or Morse Code is DIGITAL because you use your fingers (aka digits) to send the message. ANALOG is the way that most people hear CW or Morse and BINARY is the quality of this dialog (it is simple or it is not simple).

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by WI7B on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

“So there you have it. I hope I have successfully conveyed my confusion as to whether or not Morse is a digital mode.” - Larry K7LRB

Yes, you have conveyed your confusion extremely well. And your confusion stems right from your first premise:

“I have been under the impression that “digital”, as used in technology, refers to the process of converting data into information that a computer can use and manipulate…”

NO. Analog systems represent signals continuously, while digital systems represent signals in the timing of pulses. Traditionally, many human-designed circuits operate exclusively in analog or in digital modes. Computers, for example, can use either analog or digital data. Because it is a computational device doesn’t mean it uses a digital mode exclusively, or at all.

Your confusion deepens in the premise/argument beginning:

“Can information that is NOT digital BECOME digitized?”

Once it becomes digital it is in a digital mode. Once it becomes analog, it is in an analog mode. Your argument following this direct resolution appears to be just....confusing.

And your confusion borders on ignorance in the following premises:

“It appears that the position FOR Morse being a digital mode is that it has also has two states.”

YES. This defines a digital mode...a two-state digital mode.

Interesting enough, the human brain was once thought to work purely in a digital mode, but recent research seems to indicate otherwise. Contrary to popular belief, brain cells use a mix of analog and digital coding at the same time to communicate efficiently, according to a study by Yale School of Medicine researchers published in Nature (April, 2006).
This finding partially overturns a longstanding belief that each of the brain’s 100 billion neurons communicate strictly by a digital code.

“This study reveals that the brain is very sophisticated in its operation, using a code that is more efficient than previously appreciated,” said David McCormick, professor in the Department of Neurobiology. “It’s as if everyone thought communication in the brain was like a telegraph, but actually it turned out to be more similar to a telephone.”

73,

---* Ken

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3XL on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Larry,
Morse code is digital because you have to count (either in your head or with a computer) to understand it. The answer I saw about the word digital being derived from men counting with their fingers (digits) was the right answer.

How it is encoded, keyed, sent, received or translated doesn't matter. It is the simple fact that it is based on mathematical relationships. Music is another digital language that requires counting to understand. It is even more interesting than Morse Code because we have 2 octaves, measures, volume, and more to deal with to understand it.

Really good question!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W9OY on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Dan

My point was this question is kind of like does a falling tree make a sound in the forest if no one is there to listen? i.e. is perception phenomonlogical or is it objective. The arguments are largely digital things are objective if machines decode them, while human decoding is phenomenological.

To me the answer is

yes the tree makes a sound because its inherent potential energy is dissipated in sound energy (as well as other energy) that is released into the universe

yes CW is digital since it obeys a set of pre-defined rules for encoding and decoding. Its digital-ness is defined by its inherent encoding and decoding and is independent of the wetware/hardware that is doing the en/decoding.

73 W9OY

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KB9TMP on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Morse is binary digital in that there are only two states on or off, BUT the length of the on and off states are different. That makes it PULSE WIDTH due to the difference being the on and off TIMES.

WW Warren - KB9TMP

"Quote me as saying I was misquoted."
-Groucho Marx

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by KF4HR" On to the next question... let's see now..., Black Holes! Personally, I'm not for them, or against them. :^))"

HA HA HA !

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KT8K on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

A friend (many years ago) doing brain-to-machine interface research told me that he thought the neurons in the human nervous system communicate by electrical signals in which many different characteristics are used. He suspected that signal amplitude, pulse length, rise and fall times, and more complex relationships between pulses, are all used, making the communications in our neural pathways far more complex and sophisticated than we can (even today) totally understand. Fortunately, the mammalian nervous system is extremely adaptable, and can learn to use more limited signaling schemes so that using implanted microprocessors to control prosthetic limbs, for example, is possible.

We have a lot to learn about ourselves, and I think FAR too little research is being done in these areas.
73 de kt8k - Tim

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>Morse is binary digital in that there are only two states on or off, BUT the length of the on and off states are different. That makes it PULSE WIDTH due to the difference being the on and off TIMES.

Or you can consider a dah three bits, and a dit one:

111010111010000001110111010111

(CQ)

Each "pulse" or the basic timing element (clock) is consistent.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KI4PGS on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

CW is sent out as a tone, not some digital hash that you can't understand with out a computer telling you what it's saying, but I don't really care. I'll leave you guys to your battle and I'll get on the CW bands and have some fun.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KX0R on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

After reading through some of the above, it's pretty clear to me that the question of whether we call CW digital or something else is a small matter. Trying to put CW into a box of definitions doesn't get us anywhere.

Using CW isn't a digital process at all. It requires practice, experience, listening skills, and a lot of brain processing to get the most out of the signals from our reciver. A real CW QSO is a lot more than a series of digital data exchanges. The pleasure that comes from using CW is very subtle and may take years to develop.

CW can be sent without shaping, with square leading and falling edges, but then it would produce clicks and occupy an excessive bandwidth. W8JI and others here are correct that good CW is AM, at least when sent with appropriate shaping. I've built several key shaping circuits for my rigs, and I've adjusted them by watching a scope while tweaking the R's and C's. Keyshaping is amplitude modulation, and it is not trivial to do well. Most of us use circuits and shaping that represent a compromise from what would be mathematically ideal, but that's OK.

What really matters from now on is how often and how well we use CW on the air. CW technology is at its peak and is still evolving.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AG4RQ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

When transmitting CW, a transmitter is in either of 2 distinct states. It is on, and it is off. Going between these 2 states in varying intervals, forming various patterns to convey information is digital in my book.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? N3OX

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by N3OX" Morse over CW is not a DIGITAL MODE."

Dan N3OX you are wrong! Here is why you are wrong.

Morse code CW is the only digital modulation mode designed to be read by humans without a computer, making it appropriate for sending automated digital data in voice channels, as well as making it ideal for emergency signaling, such as by way of improvised energy sources that can be easily keyed such as by supplying and removing electric power by switching a breaker on and off.

However, the variable length of the Morse characters made it hard to adapt to automated communication, so it has been largely replaced by more regular formats, including the Baudot code and ASCII.

CW Morse code can be transmitted in a number of ways: originally as electrical pulses along a telegraph wire, but also as an audio tone, as a radio signal with short and long pulses or tones, or as a mechanical or visual signal a flashing light using devices like an Aldis lamp or a heliograph.

CW Morse code is transmitted using just two states on and off it was an early form of a digital code however, it is technically not binary, as the pause lengths are also required to decode the information.

A digital system is one that uses discrete values often electrical voltages, especially those representable as binary numbers, or non-numeric symbols such as letters or icons, for input, processing, transmission, storage, or display, rather than a continuous spectrum of values as in an analog system.

The distinction of "digital" versus "analog" can refer to method of input, data storage and transfer, or the internal working of a device.

The word comes from the same source as the word digit and digitus: the Latin word for finger counting on the fingers as these are used for discrete counting.

The word digital is most commonly used in computing and electronics, especially where real world information is converted to binary numeric form as in digital audio and digital photography.

Such data carrying signals carry one of two electronic or optical pulses, logic 1 pulse present or 0 pulse absent. The term is often meant by the prefix "e-", even though not all electronic systems are digital.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W6TH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

.
With all the knowledge passed on this post, I can't understand why the Morse code has been deleted.

To me, cw means; the changes are ongoing and the development is constant.

Now this is what cw really is.

.:

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? N3OX

by NI0C on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I wonder if K4UUG actually understands the text he so freely plagiarizes from other sources such as Wikipedia.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AE6RF on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

In Shannon's seminal work, "A Mathematical Theory of Communcations" (Bell System Technical Journal, Vol 27 pp 379-423, 623-656, July & October 1948) the first example of a discrete (rather than "digital") system is that of the telegraph.

Shannon postulated four states: dash, dot, letter space and word space.

So it seems clear that Morse Code, is at minumum a "discrete" mode. If the sender wishes to use less than perfect technique for reasons of their own, that's their issue.

If I use computer keying at QRQ speeds and software decoding at the other end, that looks a lot like a digital mode to me.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, floats like a duck...

... it's probably a duck.

The more important question is... who cares?

Donald

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N0AH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Great, a thread with the MFJ Guru and K4UUG.

This is going to be informative.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N0AH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

NI0C.....nice job on K4UUG.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by NI0C on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

N0AH:
Google is a great tool for catching plagiarism.

73,
Chuck NI0C

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? KX0R

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by KX0R
"Using CW isn't a digital process at all."
YOU ARE WRONG George it is !

by KX0R
"A real CW QSO is a lot more than a series of digital data exchanges."
YOU ARE WRONG George !

George a so called "REAL CW QSO" is transmitted using just two states on and off it was an early form of a digital code however,it is technically not binary, as the pause lengths are also required to decode the information.

George KXOR HERE IS WHY YOU ARE WRONG!

George Morse code CW is the only digital modulation mode designed to be read by humans without a computer, making it appropriate for sending automated digital data in voice channels, as well as making it ideal for emergency signaling, such as by way of improvised energy sources that can be easily keyed such as by supplying and removing electric power by switching a breaker on and off.

George CW Morse code can be transmitted in a number of ways originally as electrical pulses along a telegraph wire, but also as an audio tone, as a radio signal with short and long pulses or tones, or as a mechanical or visual signal a flashing light using devices like an Aldis lamp or a heliograph.

George CW Morse code is transmitted using just two states on and off it was an early form of a digital code however, it is technically not binary, as the pause lengths are also required to decode the information.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by W6TH

"With all the knowledge passed on this post, I can't understand why the Morse code has been deleted."

THE ANSWER IN ONE WORD: OBSOLETE !

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? KX0R

by NI0C on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

He's practicing copying and pasting.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by WA1RNE on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

In today's ham radio, whether Morse is considered a digital mode or not is curious, but is also immaterial. No matter what it's considered - digital or otherwise - it will remain a separate distinct mode.

Regarding CW being considered as actually being 100% amplitude modulation, in the pure context, I disagree.

Modulation requires some form of * data * to be transferred via a carrier. As Vito pointed out, the highest frequency of that data must be a very small percentage of the carrier frequency.

The data must *vary* some "characteristic" of the carrier:

> Amplitude

> Frequency

> Phase

Unintentional variations in the carrier due to anomalies in keying waveforms is not in the context of "modulation" as it is meant to be used in the application.

WA1RNE

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KXOR "CW technology is at its peak and is still evolving."

PEAKED ITSELF OUT !

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AA1TC on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Nothing about cw is digital. Is flashing light digital? CW is anaolg. Just because it has a long and short does not make the mode digital. CW is analog, always has been and always will be. When I first read the question I thought everyone would come back and say the same thing that I did. Wow who would of thought there would be a debate about this. Nice thing about this thread it provokes thought. Nice Job.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC0VEB on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Continuous wave can be either digital or analog. When it is no longer readable by man or computer it becomes SSB.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W8ZNX on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? KX0R

by W4LGH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Well after reading all the posts, there is some interesting knowledge being passed. This is actually refreshing, and very enjoyable. We've actually got people thinking...this is GREAT!!

I have also come to my own conclusion that a lot of people have CW & Morse Code confused, or at least the deffinations of them confused. This is easy to do as hams have always reffered to sending Morse Code as CW.
So one has to look at the post and determine how the word CW is being used. CW is CW a constant sine wave of RF energy being radiated. It is NOT AM nor FM, it is CW, as there is NO amplitude or frequency change happening. CW is the most common way of sending Morse code, as it requires NO amplitude or frequency change.
However morse code can be sent using FM or AM by means of AFSK or FSK.

I still say in my opinion that morse code was some of the earliest of digital modes, as it is a series of ons/offs (0's/1's). They knew of no other way to transfer intelligence until analog voice communications was invented. Funny as with most everything else in history, history usually repeats itself, and doing so now as we learn how to convert more and more A to D, and D to A. Analog pictures, voice, sounds and other things are finding there way into the world of digital. And one must remember that there is nothing new under the sun! Its all been here all along, just in different states.

So my opinion is the CW is NOT DIGITAL, it is 100% analog, Morse Code however is the 1st of the DIGITAL MODES, by today's deffinations, invented some 150 years ago. Just because it is understood directly by humans, doesn't mean its not DIGITAL. All AIGITAL info could be decoded by humans if sent slow enough, as one would just count the on's and off's, and know the algorythums to re-assemble the infomation.(intelligence) One doesn't realize that when earning Morse Code that they were also learning the algorythum to re-assemble it. (ie: 1 dot & 1 dash = A)

Really neat discussions here...

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? KX0R

by WI7B on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Alan W4LGH,

Absolutely correct. CW is an analog carrier, while Morse Code is a digital mode of communication. Interestingly, spark gap is a digital carrier as the dampended wave is periodically "on" and "off", but discontinuous.

73,

--* Ken

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K0RGR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Let me throw in a 3rd confusion.

CW is CW and Morse is Morse. What is type A1 emission?

Well, if you read FCC's rules carefully enough, you will find out that their definition of type A1 emission includes the use of Morse Code. So, A1 means 'on - off' keying using Morse Code.

Hellscreiber is also CW - it is just on-off keying. When displayed on a CRT, Hell mode produces readable text.

So, could Techs be using Hell mode instead of Morse on HF? No - the rules say they can use A1 there - not CW.
A1 is Morse Code only.

But yes, CW can be treated as a digital mode if you consider each element to be made of equal-sized 'bits'.

A dit would be one bit. A dash would be three bits in a row set to '1'. A space is a bit set to '0', a character space is three spaces set to '0' in a row.

This doesn't look that much different than NRZI encoding, but in CW, the character equivalent codes are not all of the same bit length. The letter 'a' has three bits, the number '0' takes 20 bits.

Morse is a bit like the NCR computer alphabet. That's the series of odd-looking numbers and letters at the bottom of your checks. It is reliably machine-readable, but also human-readable. Similarly, machines can read machine-sent code pretty well. NCR machines can't read NCR symbols that are written by hand, either.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Digital doesn't have anything to do with sidebands, bandwidth, speed, computers, computer versus mental copy, hash-sounding signals, binary, or modulation. You can have an amplitude modulated signal that is digital. Read about QAM. Digital means discrete states. Too many folks are confusing modulation. RTTY, an undeniably digital mode, uses two analog signals turned on and off. I can send morse code on a wire using two distinct states. It doesn't matter if I use +5V and 0V, a 600 Hz tone and no tone, or if I push and pull the wire -- it's distinct states. I can store morse code data directly into a binary register without any conversion.

If one looks at any "level" of any communications system, at some point it is analog. Digital is about how the information is conveyed in the analog medium.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KASSY on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

The only correct answer is:

It doesn't matter.

But, to be scientifically accurate:
A digitized signal is one which is defined by having quantized states. The simplest form is binary, a signal which can take on one of two states. The next more complicated digital signal would be a quaternary signal, such as in QPSK; this signal can take on one of four defined, quantized states. While we do not have mechanisms for making a three-state digital signal, such would still be digital.

An analog signal is one in which the information content is carried by means of some continuously varying quantity, such as phase, amplitude or frequency.

Scientifically speaking then, Morse Code is digital. Not because it is on or off, but because the information content is carried in four quantized elements: dot, dash, short space, long space.

The fact that it can be interpreted by the human mind is irrelevant to whether or not it is a digital signal.

-k

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N9AOP on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

It is digital if you want it to be. The beauty of CW these days is that during contests it is almost always machine generated in one way or another. It can be computer or in the head copied. The nice thing about computer copying is that it can be computer answered also leading to automatic contesting. The Burro at the League should like that.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W6DPS on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

My vote is digital--I send Morse code with two digits of my left hand, and receive with a writing implement grasped in the digits of my left hand. Much like a piano being "digital"...

Seriously, I think the definition is mostly irrelevent. I would say digital due to the on and off states, with intelligence coded in the pulse lengths--similar to the coding on music CDs.

If our two choices are digital and analog, I don't see anyway to consider Morse code an analog modulation. There is no analog variation--just off and on in coded durations.

The digital nature is what makes it so useful in marginal conditions--the quality of the signal can be very poor and you still tell if it is off or on. Poor quality analog signals lose data at s/n ratios far above a purely digital signal.

Dave_W6DPS

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KB1FZA on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

According to question G8B09 in the exam pool for General Class, CW is a digital mode. So here you have it ;-)

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by SM0AOM on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"CW is CW and Morse is Morse. What is type A1 emission?"

There is a lot of confusion going on here.

First, "CW" is a term that was coined in the 1910's
to distinguish between spark transmissions, "damped waves", or emission class B, and undamped or "continous" waves.

"CW" describes the nature and generation of the carrier that is used to transfer information, and has nothing to do with any telegraph alphabet or coding used.

"A1" is an old emission classifier, that was obsoleted by the WARC-1979 emission designator system.

The current proper usage of the post WARC-1979 emission designators for "on/off telegraphy for aural reception" is A1A, where A means "amplitude modulation", 1 "a single channel containing quantized or digital information without the use of a modulating subcarrier" and finally A "telegraphy for aural reception".

If the emission is intended for automatic reception it is A1B and if the emission is "data" it is A1D.

Admittedly, the difference between A1B and A1D is diffuse, but it usually is tacitly assumed that B makes use of the ITA 1 or 2 (Morse or Baudot) codes, and D uses "other" codes.

Finally, it can be shown that all information transfer, regardless of coding and modulation formats, is made in the sidebands. The carrier in AM and related modulation formats only serves as a frequency and level reference for the demodulation process.

This can be experimentally proven by listening to fast keyed telegraphy through a very narrow filter that is able to suppress the sidebands, and only let the carrier through. The output of the filter is a steady tone without any remnants of the original keying waveform.

73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by WI7B on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Karl-Arne SM0AOM,

You are correct. I would only add that N0N emission may be the closest designator to the concept of "CW" as an emission class.

73,

---* Ken

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by COOWALLSKY on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Computers, for example, can use either analog or digital data."

No, computers can only use digital. Analog has to go through an A-to-D conversion for the data to be meaningful to the computer. Computers don't inherently know a 4 from a 5 or a 7. To a computer, it's all 1's and 0's. Programming languages allow us to store & fetch the 1's & o's in a manner meaningful to us.

RE: How Many Angels Can Dance On A Pin?

by W3WN on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"How Many Angels Can Dance On A Pin?"

Not sure what the question has to do with the subject, but there is insufficient data to answer it.

Answer depends on the size of the pin, and which members of the California Angels, er, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim that you've selected to try and dance on it!

RE: How Many Angels Can Dance On A Pin?

by N3OX on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

W9OY says: "Its digital-ness is defined by its inherent encoding and decoding and is independent of the wetware/hardware that is doing the en/decoding."

Agreed, but I would specifically say (in the light of later comments) that it's MORSE CODE that is a digital encoding and it doesn't count as a "digital mode" unless it's being used to communicate using computers as intermediaries.

If you're sending it and receiving it by brain, it's not a digital *mode* even if it does use a digital encoding.

Hmm... sending and receiving by brain... what's the emissions designator for Morse over Telepathy?

RE: How Many Angels Can Dance On A Pin?

by W4LGH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Quote~"How Many Angels Can Dance On A Pin?"
Not sure what the question has to do with the subject, but there is insufficient data to answer it.
Answer depends on the size of the pin, and which members of the California Angels, er, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim that you've selected to try and dance on it!"

That is a great answer! Who says one can not logically answer a SmartA$s question!

73

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>While we do not have mechanisms for making a three-state digital signal, such would still be digital.

Actually we do. A T1 line configured for AMI (Alternate Mark Inversion) is a three state digital signal with high, low, and 0V levels. Granted this is just for error detection and the resulting decoded signal is binary, it is three state at the physical level.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE3HO on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

<<< No, computers can only use digital. >>>

Never heard of an analog computer? I know a gentleman who spent his career working with analog computers. They use variable gain amplifiers for multiplication and division, analog adders for addition and subtraction, etc. Their plus side is that they give nearly instantaneous answers. Their down side is that the answer is only as good as a voltmeter reading at the end. I don't know if anyone still works with them. Digital computers have become so fast that there is no longer any significant speed advantage to an analog computer. But 20 years ago.....

73 - Jim

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by WI7B on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"No, computers can only use digital." - COOLWALLSKY

Dear "COOLWAALSKY", get off the WALL and please inform yourself...

=> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer

Not only are their analog computers, there are combinations of both analog and digital computation devices. To quote part of this fine article:

"There is an intermediate device, a hybrid computer, in which a digital computer is combined with an analog computer. Hybrid computers are used to obtain a very accurate but imprecise 'seed' value, using an analog computer front-end, which is then fed into a digital computer iterative process to achieve the final desired degree of precision...It is useful for real-time applications requiring such a combination (e.g., a high frequency phased-array radar or a weather system computation)."

Some examples of analog computers:

The slide rule is a hand-operated analog computer

Heathkit EC-1 An educational analog computer made by the Heath Company , USA c 1960.

73,

---* Ken

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AB7JK on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

No. Morse code is a language. Digital communications are not listened to like a language so are different.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N6AJR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

yes

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4JSR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KOOL IT FOLKS!!
THE KEY KLIX KLAN IS LOOKING TO BURN A BUG IN SOMEONE'S ANTENNA FARM TONIGHT!!!

By the way, is everyone aware that George Washington
was the first radio ham?

When as a lad he was asked by his father, "Who chopped down my Cherry tree?" George honestly said,
"I didit, Dahdah!".

Also, Tom, W8JI, is correct about code being the severest form of 100% amplitude modulation.
1. Modulation is the imposition of intelligence on a carrier. The imposition is accomplished by on-off keying in the case of Morse Code. If the modulation was less than 100% the transmitter would be transmitting a slight carrier when the key was up. This is called "Back Wave".
2. There are sidebands generated by the keying of the
transmitter. The keying wave shape is the main determining factor causing the sidebands. The steeper the rise and fall time of each character, the more sidebands generated. If the keying rise time is too steep you get the unwanted addition of key clicks, which can actually splatter up and down the band and is a form of over modulaion.
Also remember that the more like a square wave the keying waveform appears the more towards infinity the
number of sine waves making that square wave. More sine waves equals more sidebands. This why QST, CQ,et al, show the keying waveshapes in their reviews of transceivers.
There are other factors that enter into this whole affair, but the above should cover the major transgressors.

Now back to my inane asylum and rocking chair!
73, Cal K4JSR

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4JSR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Further reading on the subject:

http://www.w8ji.com/keyclicks.htm

NI0C

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

http://charles%20j%20.guenther%20jr.youaremighty.com/

RE: NI0C

by KV6O on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Speaking of Analog computers....

http://web.mit.edu/STS.035/www/PDFs/Newell.pdf

Fascinating! My dad worked on a missile tracking ship in the early 60's that used an electrical analog resolver chain computer for missile tracking. They also had digital computer (IBM 7090?) that constantly failed. He’s got lots of stories about loosing up the servos (for better tracking response of high speed targets) and dampening the system with duct tape to keep it from oscillating, which, when it happened, would shake the whole ship, and peeling the tape off when the missile passed overhead to allow it to track the fast moving object. The servos directly controlled large tracking servos on the C band dishes (which were on a gyro-stabilized platform), so if it oscillated several tons of steel would begin to vibrate!

Steve
KV6O

RE: NI0C

by K7PEH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

And, again with analog computers....

We had an analog computer to "play" with in school, I remember solving second-order differential equations using this analog computer at Oregon State University in the 1960s.

Also, the electric utility industry used to use analog computers quite a bit for several different applications. I remember one application was "automatic generation control" which was a closed control loop problem now done using digital computers. When our company replaced an energy management system at a large Texas utility back in the early 1980s, we were replacing a system that used analog computers!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N0JL on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Where lies the question on synco vs. async?

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by NY7Q on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Most of the comments are stupid. Most of the comments are by new version hams who don't have a clue about electronics.
Cw is not digital. get it right stupid.
It is proven fact of life, it is a form of AM
Go back and read the facts in any "Basic" electronics manual published before the New mind set computer jocks.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by WI7B on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

NY7Q bio-notes on eHam:

"My favorite thing to do in ham radio is... Because?
I am retired from ham radio

My equipment consists of...
none now"

No comment necessary.

73,

---* Ken

RE: K7PEH

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Beginning in 1946 two major purely electronic digital computers had been built, the ENIAC in the U.S.A. and the Colossus in the U.K.

In addition there were a number of electro mechanical machines in existence, notably the "Harvard Mark I", built at Harvard University under Howard H. Aiken, completed in 1943.

The first Colossus was designed and built at the Post Office Research Laboratories at Dollis Hill in North London in 1943, under Dr Tommy Flowers, for the code breaking centre at Bletchley Park, to help in breaking the German Lorenz codes.

In all 10 were built and they were extensively used in the last 16 months of the war in Europe.

The Colossus operation at Bletchley Park was directed by M.H.A.Max Newman.

ENIAC was built at the Moore School of Electrical Engineering, at the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, for the US Army's Ballistics Research Lab.

It was first working in secret in 1945, and was unveiled to the public in February 1946.

It was built under John W. Mauchly and J. Presper Eckert, and the team was joined in 1945 by John von Neumann.

Colossus was a highly specific machine, programmed rather than programmable.

ENIAC was programmable, but a complete change of program could take days no great problem given its original intended use.

Neither machine had an effective random access memory that could work at electronic speeds, and therefore neither machine used the stored-program principle.

The term digital signal is used to refer to more than one concept.

It can refer to discrete-time signals that are digitized, or to the waveform signals in a digital system.

An analog or analogue signal is any variable signal continuous in both time and amplitude.

It differs from a digital signal in that small fluctuations in the signal are meaningful.

Analog is usually thought of in an electrical context, however mechanical, pneumatic, hydraulic, and other systems may also convey analog signals.

Binary basically means composed of two parts or two pieces.

The term binary code can mean several different things.

There are a variety of different methods of coding numbers or symbols into strings of , including fixed length binary numbers, prefix codes such as Huffman code,and other arithmetic coding.

Made up of only zeros and ones, and used in modern computers to stand for letters and digits.

Uncited copying of text

by N3OX on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG, what part of "Don't Copy And Paste From Other Websites Without Citing The Source" don't you understand.

About time for N2MG to drop in here, I think.

RE: N0AH

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by N0AH "Great, a thread with the MFJ Guru and K4UUG"

AW Bryon so much for the Fraternal Brotherhood of Hams !

AW Byron I am just not feeling the love here.

By the way Byron nice photo of YOU on the QRZ profile yellow teeth and all.

RE: Uncited copying of text N3OX

by K4UUG on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

N3OX "I started with that CB thing in 8th grade."

We can see it ! Time to move on to the 9th Grade.

RE: Uncited copying of text N3OX

by WI7B on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Just one example of citing the reference:

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
-- Thomas Jefferson, "Liberty"

RE: Is CW digital?

by K7LRB on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

WOW! First of all, I wish to thank ALL of you. I have read every post thus far and they are all sincerely appreciated. It sounds like the answer to my question may be determined by how we define the very word 'digital'. Perhaps I put too much stock on the premise that all digital is 'binary'. If one accepts THAT premise then CW, or, as some aptly pointed out, 'Morse', would NOT be digital in that only two states could exist, 1s and 0s of the EXACT same length. Obviously Morse can have 1s and 0s of an infinite number of lengths. This is what prevents Morse programs from being able to interpret, um, 'unusual' fists.

I suppose the bottom line can be summed up in the following responses:

KB1FZA: 'According to question G8B09 in the exam pool for General Class, CW is a digital mode. So here you have it ;-)'

(Hard to argue with 'city hall'. The FCC says so!)

KASSY: 'The only correct answer is: It doesn't matter.'

AE6RF: 'The more important question is... who cares?'

(Good points, both. My main reason for making the post is that over the past several years I have seen people take a 'hard line' either way. I was just interested in some informative feedback.)

I also appreciate the 'light hearted' responses.

KC0VEB: 'Continuous wave can be either digital or analog. When it is no longer readable by man or computer it becomes SSB.'

Again, I thank you all for taking your time to respond. Y'all are great!

73,
de Larry

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4VR on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

At this point in the regulatory scheme of things..WHO CARES!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by PLANKEYE on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG:

Man dude, use your own words, but please choose them wisely.

PLANKEYE

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AB1GA on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Wow! What a thread! Might as well jump in...

A signal is a controlled variation in a physical parameter which conveys information. A digital signal is a signal for which the physical parameter is defined to assume one of a finite number of distinct (non-overlapping) states at a given time. A binary signal is a digital signal with only two states. An analog signal is not limited to specific values, although it may be limited in range. There is absolutely nothing about the definition of a digital signal which requires a computer; we only need a definition of the states and a means to distinguish them. There can be any number of states greater than or equal to two. Just imagine a wire which can have a voltage applied. You can specify state N as being a voltage of N volts on the wire.

We start with a string of text. Even if we never explicitly write it down, we still wind up transmitting a text message when we use CW on the air. Text is a digital encoding (note I did not say signal)because it has a finite number of distinct symbols (alphabet, word space, punctuation/prosigns), but obviously is is not a binary encoding.

You can encode a message multiple times. First we encoded our thoughts into text, now we encode our text using ITA-1, otherwise known as International Morse Code. For each character we substitute a sequence of one or more symbols, called elements, familiarly known as dit and dah, and insert the symbol "character space" between character symbols. Our message now has four distinct symbols: "dit", "dah", "character space", and "word space". This is a digital encoding, but not a binary encoding. It still isn't a signal, because we aren't changing a physical parameter.

Time for another encoding step, and a challenge to the conventional wisdom on my part. At this point people say that a dit is a tone one unit long and a dah a tone three units long. My question: if that's the case, what do three consecutive dits sound like? They sound like a dah unless you add an "interelement space" between any two elements. But if this space is inseparable from the dit or the dah, why keep it separate? This of this trailing space as the "stop bit" for Morse code.

We can redefine our symbols as follows:

UTI = unit time interval
dit = 1 UTI on, 1 UTI off
dah = 3 UTI on, 1 UTI off
character space = 2 UTI off
word space = 6 UTI off

In this revised mapping, a dah is twice as long as a dit, not three times.

Using this substitution, we can encode four symbols into two symbols (off/on, mark/space, whatever). Now we have a digital code which is also a binary code with all the same characteristics as ASCII, Baudot, and Varicode.

The last step is modulation, where we use our encoded message to vary a physical parameter, changing its state. Since our input stream can only assume a finite number of values, so the physical parameter we're modifying and later measuring can only assume two states. The value of the physical parameter may be outside the defined range of the defined states during transitions, but for the system to work the receiver has to be able to recognize when to sample the state of the signal. Most digital signals use some form of timing encoded with the data stream like a stop bit or restrictions on phase transitions; CW uses a comparison of relative duration between dits and dahs. After all, if you hear only one tone, you can't tell if it's a fast dah or a slow dit!

That's why computer programs have a tougher time decoding CW than other digital modes. CW does not carry enough timing information to allow reliable synchronization by computer under weak signal or hard QRM conditions, but the processing power of the brain is usually up to the task.

So yes, based on what I learned in school and this primitive analysis of the encoding and modulation process, I would call CW a digital, and even a binary mode. As a thought exercise it's quite stimulating, but I don't think the definition is that important. CW wasn't lumped in with other digital modes because historically it almost predates the word "digital" and operationally it is different from other digital modes, not requiring the use of a supporting encoding/decoding device.

Oh hell, I've rambled again. Sorry everybody, and 73,

.dale.

Definition entertainment.

by AI2IA on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

What an absolute waste of what otherwise could have been good operating time. Defining is not being.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N2NXZ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Well,my theory is simple.When the first CW signal was sent,was it called digital??I guess it would be digital if one uses a computer to decode the CW for sending or receiving.Otherwise,ANALOG comes to mind.The first radios were of tubes and such.Certainly far from digital.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by NS6Y_ on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

It's on/off therefore it's digital.

K4UUG's little brain...Mr. Cut and Paste

by N0AH on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I like my picture on QRZ.COM. So does my wife and girl friend. So I don't care what you say-

But you know what, I like my picture on the front cover of the National Contest Journal March/April 2006 edition even better. I wouldn't bring it up but you started it.

So other than your police mug shots, where else is your picture posted?

See, it's like this. If your going to walk the walk, you need to talk the talk. There are some idiots like you in this hobby that I actually respect, even if they threatened an assault on me over the radio and make crap for MFJ.

But so far, the only talking you are doing on this thread comes from others. You pretend to put on the face of an intelligent engineer, but the reality is you know nothing on your own about amateur radio.

Copy and Paste...........I like that nick name for you-

As for CW being a digital mode, I think W8JI has explained it very well. He should be writing books.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by VE3VID on January 30, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Easy answer.....No. The hand that operates the morse key, and the ear that hears the CW tones are completely analog (mechanical) instruments, aka anatomy.

The hardware between hand and ear do not digitize the signal....imho

David

RE: K4UUG's little brain...Mr. Cut and Paste

by K4UUG on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by N0AH
K4UUG's little brain...Mr. Cut and Paste

1."I like my picture on QRZ.COM. So does my wife and girl friend. So I don't care what you say."

2."But you know what, I like my picture on the front cover of the National Contest Journal March/April 2006 edition even better. I wouldn't bring it up but you started it."

3."So other than your police mug shots, where else is your picture posted?"

4."There are some idiots like you in this hobby that I actually respect, even if they threatened an assault on me over the radio and make crap for MFJ."

Aw there you go again I just do not feel the love here how about a group hug.

1.Yea YELLOW TEETH and all! She have yellow teeth also or no teeth or one tooth.

2.Just a little Narcissistic and Histrionic are we.

3.My drivers license.

4.Birds of a feather flock togeather,MFJ is not crap its mighty fine junk,what have you made besides a good case of hemorrhoids? I have never threatened you !Try rubbing some hemorrhoidal cream on that bald head it Shrinks swollen hemorrhoidal tissue!

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N9LYA on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

YES DUH...

And you do not need a computer to process digital data..
OR have you all for got how you passed Digital 101...

I never used a computer to handle, binary, boolean, or other data.. I used a pencil and paper..

CODE is digital....

73 Jerry n9lya

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AB2MH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Morse code is a digital mode. That is an established fact.

Why is this even up for discussion?

The difference between morse and other digital modes is that it is mostly decoded by ear and sent by hand.

But it is still a digital mode.

Digital modes don't have to involve computers at all.

Morse is a digital mode. End of story.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3XL on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I agree that Morse Code was not originally conceived as a digital mode. Digital communications did not exist back then. So maybe that is why this is a little confusing. Morse code was only recognized as a digital mode after digital computing came into existence.

After hearing some of the fists out there that are only intelligible via the human ear because they do not adhere to defined timing principles, I have to concede that Morse code can still be an analog mode. Actually, you have to admire some of the stuff you hear that your computer can't read. Once you really listen to it, it is readable. Its like a strange accent. The words are there, but they sound like a foreign language until you figure out how they are saying stuff. I doubt that the algoritm will ever be developed that can read any fist.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Well I have really enjoyed the technical discussions in this thread. Its good to see fellow hams making such technical comments. Glad to know there are other technical hams out there. This is NOT a negitive statement to non-technical hams, thats ok too, but I really enjoy technical discussions.

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

Keep the technical side Alive!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC2QOW on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

It's very simple. It's digital since the signal states are discrete. It is not, however, technically binary.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4KTX on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I agree with Dan. Morse has actually three states, not just on or off. It has on-short, on-long, and off. Is that really digital? Maybe, then maybe not

Mike, W4KTX

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K7PEH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

<Quote>
I agree with Dan. Morse has actually three states, not just on or off. It has on-short, on-long, and off. Is that really digital? Maybe, then maybe not.
</Quote>

There does seem to be a lot of confusion on digital, analog, binary, and so on. Not that it is a very clear subject to begin with. Simplistic answers such as "obviously digital" or "obviously analog" only give one's perspective. Not that they are wrong but rather they are incomplete.

For example, I have a Comcast digital phone. I speak into this phone and that is considered by most to be analog. The analog signal is converted to digital information. Note that that I say "digital information" because the actual signal itself in the wires is still analog. This encoded voice information is sent over the Internet which most would call a digital medium but engineers who build modems know that they are dealing with analog signals that convey digital information.

As for the quoted text above. Digital can have any number of discrete values but the reason it is called digital is that it is discrete. Analog of course is continuous with the possibility of having some non-linear discontinuous behavior here and there.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KD5PSH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

CW could be 'digital mode' or not; it would be dependant upon how you want to define same. Which makes this whole discussion at least moot.
To me, CW (Morse) is not a digital mode, but I don't have time to argue the differences.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W9OY on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

actually it was "originally conceived" by Morse as more of a digital mode than anything else. In its original conception it was long and short marks on a paper tape. The original code was numbers denoted by these marks. The numbers were looked up in a corresponing dictionary which held the meaning of the number. It was later that letters and "ear copy" was added, since it was easier to decode in the head than to do the look-up. How "digital" is that?

73 W9OY

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KG4RUL on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Digital has discrete states - Analog has no discrete states.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

<Quote>
I agree with Dan. Morse has actually three states, not just on or off. It has on-short, on-long, and off. Is that really digital? Maybe, then maybe not.
</Quote>

I have to disagree with this. There are only 2 real states, on and off. The length of time it is on or off does not represent an additional state. To justify this statement, one would have to add the time it is off as well, off short/off long, or off permenately, and this would completely silly to even consider. So my opinion is only 2, on/off.

I also liked the statement that it is Digital Information encoded onto an analog signal. Something I said in an earlier post. You can not transmit digital signals, but you can transmit digital encoded signals on an analog carrier such as CW. Now morse code is encoded info consisting of on's/off's, transmitted on a CW carrier. Sounds like Digital to me. Old Sam Morse was way ahead of his time, and never knew it!

The FCC does not consider it a digital signal because its been around since the inception of the FCC, and was considered the mainstream of communications, so it has always been handled differently.

Morse code has never been my choice ,but its easy to see why so many love it, looking back into history with it, etc. Morse code probably helped us to win WWII, and many other important decisions that have affected our lives over the years. As I get more and more into the Vintage side of the hobby, I may become more interested in using Morse code, not as a main form of communications, but as somthing different now and them.

As I ssid I never liked it, but hated to see it go, not because "I had to learn it", not because it "Kept out un-wanteds", but because of the pure History of it. I would have certainly voted in favor of a no-code general but would have liked to see it stay a part of Amateur History. I have alsway heard the statement..."Those who don't learn and know our History, are certainly doomed to repeat it"! So we'll see...time will certainly tell all!

--... ...-- -.. . .-- ...- .-.. --. ....

http://www.w4lgh.com

K4UUG's total melt-down

by N0AH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG:

You remind me of one of those guys who goes into a store to buy a medal. Is this hitting a nerve?

A Plagiarist will never earn the respect of those who actually know what they ae doing and/or talking about.

And most of us could tell this about you from day one.

You might as well bag your call and get a fresh start.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N9AOP on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

This venue seems to be 50%serious and 50%entertainment.
When I am looking for serious information on ham radio topics I usually go elsewhere. Comments from the likes of K4UUG and some others add the crap that makes this somewhat entertaining and also difficult to sift through.
Art

Cute Discussion

by K2IY on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

If we were a bunch of lawyers trying to decide a court case this would be an important thing to decide.

I think think the pedestrian understanding of a digital mode is any communications which absolutely requires some type of processing by hardware which contains circuitry made with modern digital integrated circuits; i.e amtor, packet etc. Even RTTY would not be digital since it was orignally processed by mechanical teleprinter equipment.

One could say that cw is sent as timing or dot's and dashes interpreted by the human brain, but technically it can also be described as a form of human language. Afterall some cw ops have to translate cw into english or their native tongue while others do not.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by OK1RR on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Definitely NOT. Morse is meant for human ear reception, not for the machine processing. There is NO reliable decoder which can replace a well trained operator.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N8XD on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

It's clearly a digital Length Encoded Binary Frequency Shift Keying with one frequency of zero Hz, and the other of an arbitrary value. *smile*

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W6TH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

.

Some years back a group of old timers had many new hams confused and said that our bunch, all in a round table, all on the same frequency were not very good at sending as they could not copy us very well.

Well, the problem they had was because they, the new ham operators did not know how to copy land morse.
What we old timers did, was to mix continental morse with land morse, that is send a word or two with continental morse and then a word or two with land morse.

CW will be around for a few more years and eventually will fade away and be for a small group, just like when the land morse was used 100 percent on the early ham bands.

I don't use morse any longer as the newer hams say I have a lousy fist, or is it they cannot copy morse?

W6TH.

.:

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KF4HR on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Wait a minute here...

If they called in Continuous Wave (CW), shouldn't it be one long dahhhhhhhhhhh?

(Come on people... keep this crazy thread going! :^))

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KX8N on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Morse has actually three states, not just on or off. It has on-short, on-long, and off. Is that really digital?"

Yes, because it has three discrete, absolute values. You have off, short, and long. There is nothing else in between.

Just because something is digital does not mean it only has two states. It just means there is no variable information between the states.

RE: Cute Discussion

by W4LGH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K2IY said.."Even RTTY would not be digital since it was orignally processed by mechanical teleprinter equipment."~~

The only problem with this statement is that the teleprinter used for this was a very soficated electro-mechanical computer! Had a series of mechanical cams that actually decoded the info as 0's and 1's. All of the early computers were mechanical, but binary computers none the less. Had a Model 30 ,as best I can remember the number now. It was BIG, NOISY, and a very complicated piece of equipment. The 5-bit baudot code it used was very limited, but very hi-tech in its day!

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by NI0C on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KF4HR wrote:
"If they called in Continuous Wave (CW), shouldn't it be one long dahhhhhhhhhhh? "

That's A0 emission, which theoretically occupies zero bandwidth. In the discussion above, SM0AOM provided a very good explanation of the bandwidth occupied by a keyed CW waveform.

73,
Chuck NI0C

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by PLANKEYE on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG:

Rick, I tried to tell ya. Use those words wisely. At least your posts now, are your own. No doubt about that.

PLANKEYE

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W6TH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

.

I believe it would be a good time for eHAM to list another post, You know, something in the line of ham radio, or what have you.

I did not learn much from this post, the talk was in circles.

The internet has more information for those that are interested in knowing the facts as you won't get it here.

.:

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by PLANKEYE on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

W6TH:

It may be the internet, impersonal as it may be, but the hands that type these posts are real. You may have more facts in front of you than you might think. If you take the time to look.

PLANKEYE

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KI4MEK on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

All digital means is that the information can be expressed in terms od a "digit". What a digit means is is determined by the base of the numerical system used. Binary is base 2 digital system. Decimal is a base 10 digital system. Octadecimal and hexidecimal systems are base 8 and base 16 digital systems. In each of these systems they convey information in terms of the number of digits contained in the base numerical system.

In the case of Morse code, It can be argued that in it's purest form (as it would be represented as a code on paper) it is a digital system base 3. Containing 3 separate digits 1=dit,2=dah,0=space(null). Therefore as written, you can digitally represent CQ CQ CQ as: 21210221200212102221200212102212. The minimum number of elements in a data stream using Morse code is 3.

Just my 11222 cents worth.

212011011112022010212
KI4MEK

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W7ETA on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I think the problem you are having is that you haven't defined digital, you do not have a "working definition, an exemplar, of digital.

As a result, you have many people commenting about what digital means to them, along with their interpretations of CW.

Without the definition, you might wind up asking a grammatically correct question, that is none sensical, such as "Is the musical note C dissolvable in water?"

A hallmark of digital might be a "stream" of zeros and ones, the numbers zero and one. But, one is a number while zero is simply a place holder. Ever run into the problem that division by zero is not possible?

Plus, I believe, a set that is restricted to zeros and ones is called binary?

If you define digital as restricted to a binary code of zeros and ones, then you can compare whatever you like to it to see if it meets your definition of digital.

If digital simply means a stream if numbers, including zero, then one can ask does one send a stream of zeros and numbers when using CW? Is "nothing" isomorphic with "zero"? Is generating a tone fungible with a one?

Define what you want to measure, how measuring can be done, measure, and then compare to what you have defined.

73
Bob

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KI4MEK on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

The definition is simple. "digital" information is information in the form of digits (discrete or quantized information are also synonomous). That is to be contrasted to analog which the information is continuously variable. Analog can be converted to digital using approximations of various complexity.

Binary is only a form of Base 2 Digital. In the same way our own Decimal system is Base 10 Digital. Morse is a Base 3 Digital, relating three pieces of information in order to communicate (dit, dah, space). With these three units all Morse communications may be represented and transmitted. No more or less than these three are required and thus the system can be considered digital.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Is the musical note C dissolvable in water?"

You have to stir very vigorously.

A Morse Code C is *completely* insoluble in water, whereas Q goes into solution like nobody's business. So if you ever hear a "C C C de XY3ABC" from overseas, you can be sure that the Q's just dissolved on the multiple ocean hops.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N5EAT on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Is cw a digital mode? I've always said it was in most discussions. Technically - a digital mode is something which started out conceptually as a class of "things" represented by the arrangements of bits in a computer. Once you made the standard, you would determine the encoding and decoding methods. RTTY would not technically be a digital mode. It is easily digitally processed however.

CW is also not based upon any number system. It would be easy to represent cw in a binary number system similar to the numeric types originated for the COBOL computer language.

All that being said, CW is close enough in concept to be considered a digital type system which involves state changes and duration of state changes. State and state durations are grouped together to form unique characters of information which are decoded using the rules used in encoding.

Since CW was not originally based upon a number system, it's not a digital mode. But it's implementation is conceptually identical to that which is used in digital encoding.

I refer to it as a digital mode because it's the same type of encoding/decoding used in a digital mode. The term digital is kind of meaningless as literally anything can be encoded into digital form, processed, then decoded. Whether a system was originally designed using a number system or not is now a very slim distinction.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K1LDS on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Of course it is.

It's a very SLOW digital mode, compared to such things as Packet, but it is certainly digital. It operates on a time standard, specific duration divided solely by 1 (tone) and 0 (no tone).

Keith K1LDS

RE: K4UUG's total melt-down

by K4UUG on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by N0AH
"K4UUG's total melt-down"

1."K4UUG:You remind me of one of those guys who goes into a store to buy a medal."

2."Is this hitting a nerve?"

3."You might as well bag your call and get a fresh start."

Byron you amuse me.Aw Byron there YOU go again ! I am just not feeling the love here, hows about holding hands with me and singing Kumbaya lyrics by Peter, Paul & Mary.

1.Byron no need for me to buy a medal, I have a chest full awarded by the US ARMY. I wish you would buy them from me so you can feel like a real man and not such a geek with a 4 pack a day habbit.

Byron I am not one of those troll charlatans that hangs out on the military sites that pose as another useing their names or photos they amuse me also.

2.No Byron I takes alot to hit my nerve,I am thick skinned!I only do unto others as they have did unto me.

3.NO WAY BYRON YOU WILL BAG YOUR CALL <sk> BEFORE I BAG MY CALL <sk>.

The Ocean Wireless Boys and the Naval Code

by N0AH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I own a book titled:

"The Ocean Wireless Boys and the Navel Code" by Capt. Wilber Lawton, Hurst & Company, Copyright 1915.

The Capt wrote this as a fictional work but it was based on his navel experience with telegraph rooms both on and off shore. The book is a mystery novel.

Anyway.........

I was wondering....is code sent by a wired telegraph system the digital smoking gun we are looking for? I understand the ship was using a transmitter (wireless.....so not digital). But what did we use to use on land before wireless telegraphs.

The front cover of this book is awesome. It has two radio ops with one writing down code and the other standing by the door looking in. Behind him on the wall is a port-hole with a steamer in the background.

The radio has two large glass tubes sitting upside down with dials all attached on the radio box the size of a safe.

The cover is four colors.......red, brown,black and white.

The binder is intack but it is fragile. I think this book is priceless.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N0AH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Looks like I hit a nerve...........

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? KX8N

by K4UUG on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KX8N I think many here are confused as to what a Digital Signal,Analog Signal,and Binary is.

The term digital signal is used to refer to more than one concept.It can refer to discrete time signals that are digitized or to the waveform signals in a digital system.

An analog signal is any variable signal continuous in both time and amplitude.It differs from a digital signal in that small fluctuations in the signal are meaningful.Analog is usually thought of in an electrical context, however mechanical,neumatic, hydraulic, and other systems may also convey analog signals.

Binary basically means composed of two parts or two pieces.The term binary code can mean several different things. There are a bunch of different methods of coding numbers or symbols into strings including fixed length binary numbers, prefix codes such as Huffman code,and other arithmetic coding.
Made up of only zeros and ones, and used in modern computers to stand for letters and digits.

RE: The Ocean Wireless Boys and the Naval Code

by K4UUG on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

N0AH I own a book titled General Class License Manual by the ARRL,If you refer to G8B09 in the exam pool CW is a digital mode.Case closed I am done here beating a dead horse!Byron see ya next time you have snide remarks for me.

RE: The Ocean Wireless Boys and the Naval Code

by K7PEH on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

<Quote>
...such as "Is the musical note C dissolvable in water?
</Quote>

Yes, the result is called seawater, we have oceans of it.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K8MHZ on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Definition of digital:

"A digital system is one that uses discrete values (often electrical voltages), especially those representable as binary numbers, or non-numeric symbols such as letters or icons, for input, processing, transmission, storage, or display, rather than a continuous spectrum of values (ie, as in an analog system)."

As I said before, if you don't know what discrete values are you cannot understand the definition of 'digital'.

Morse code has discrete values, therefore it is indeed digital.

I fail to see why some people just cannot understand this simple concept.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K8MHZ on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

And Morse Code and CW are NOT the same thing!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG barfs Wikipedia's content onto eHam one more time!

Nice!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K8MHZ on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"K4UUG barfs Wikipedia's content onto eHam one more time!"

No, that would be me.

And it is accurate.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

No, I wasn't talking about you Mark... you use quotation marks at least.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N2LQP on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Over the years, I have seen a lot of confusion about what a digital signal really is. In fact, most people do not understand this concept. Digital is not about ones and zeros, it's not about discrete values, it's not about computers. It has nothing to do with any of this. What makes a signaling scheme digital, is that the transmitter of the signal and the receiver of the signal have agreed to certain rules, beforehand, about the signals to be sent. Because of these pre-arranged agreements about how information will be sent, there is a distinct advantage to the communication scheme: The signals are no longer random. There is no ambiguity whatsoever about morse code: It IS a digital coding scheme, because the sender and the receiver both know all the possible letters transmitted.

Analog signals such as FM or AM are totally random, meaning the receiver must amplify and reproduce the received signal without any interpretation, because it has no idea whatsoever about the voice information to be received. Morse code is different. With morse code, we know that only one of 26 ï¿½symbolsï¿½ can be transmitted at anytime (yes, we all know that morse code defines more characters than just the alphabet, but for this discussion, let's just stick to the 26 letters of the alphabet). Because there are only 26 possible symbols being transmitted at any instant, the receiver actually has some information about what can be expected. This is critical: the receiver has ï¿½a posteriori knowledgeï¿½ of the signals to be received. Meaning, I know what to expect to hear in my headphones, one of 26 possibilities. With AM or FM, I cannot make this interpretation. When I hear the letter ï¿½aï¿½ transmitted in morse code, I write a letter ï¿½aï¿½ on my paper. I interpret that an ï¿½aï¿½ was sent, then I write a letter ï¿½aï¿½ on the page. I have RECONSTRUCTED the symbol being transmitted in my scription as letter ï¿½aï¿½. So, the received symbol, ï¿½aï¿½, has not be amplified and re-transmitted, it has been totally reconstructed. This is the very essence of what it means to be digital: symbols can be reconstructed and re-transmitted without the cascaded noise of all the intermediary amplifiers/transmitters. I'm taking a noisy morse ï¿½aï¿½ and writing in my notebook a totally new letter ï¿½aï¿½, noise-free!

All this is possible because the sender of the information and the receiver have agreed to a symbol scheme before any communication has taken place. With morse code, we have 26 possible symbols, so each symbol contains log 26/log2= 4.7 bits of information.

So, one can see that morse code is irrefutably a digital coding scheme because the sender and the receiver of information have a pre-arranged agreement about what symbols are allowed in the coding system. The receiver will chose the closest match between the agreed-to symbols and the received symbol+noise he hears in the headphones.

Digital signals don't always have to be associated with computer data and binary ones and zeros. In fact, all REAL signals, even within a computer are analog signals! Digital signaling schemes are engineering creations, and are ALWAYS represented by analog waveforms. I hope this clears things up and definitively answers the question about digital v. analog. 73s!

Is everybody happy now?

by AI2IA on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Now that you have all participated in the silly game of defining concepts and calling them reality are you any more informed than you were before? Do you have the objective truth now? Have you all seen clearly who was right and who was wrong?

You should be content to let the mass media define this reality for you. They define everything else for you, and they even censor your speech (and your thoughts), so why not let them settle this matter for you?

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W7ETA on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Looks like a working definition, a great exemplar for digital.
73
Bob

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AB5GU on January 31, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Sure it is digital. Remember, when Morse Code was first sent over the WIRES, it was received by a machine that cut the dots and dashes into a strip of paper. This strip was later decoded visually. That some of the employees learned to copy by ear was a surprise to Mr. Morse and the telegraph company.

Machine sent/machine received... first digital communication.

BTW: I'd say it is not a 2 base system, but a 4 base. Dot, Dash, Short space (between letters), Long space (between words).
AB5GU

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by IZ1DSJ on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I agree with the posts of AE6RF and N2LQP, morse code (doesnt'matter if used in RF as "CW" or baseband) helped to formalize Shannon's theory of communications, the code is perfectly described by its mathematics and it means that it belongs to the so called digital communications.
What is interesting is that the ideal "optimun receiver" in such case is the human hear that is perfectly implementing the Viterbi algotithm, reaching an optimum decoding even in the worst conditions. Engineers can project a "rake receiver" or a decoding algorithm, but it's nice to "be" the receiver....
Ciao de IZ1DSJ Jack.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by ZL1UXB on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Greetings all,
May I offer a third choice, as postulated by Murray Greenman (ZL1BPU), and that is that morse/cw is a fuzzy mode.

He states in his RSGB book "Digital Modes for all occaisions" that a fuzzy mode is described by three parameters.

How: The transmission is essentially digital.

When: Reception involves no timing decisions in the receiving equipment.

What: Reception involves no data decision in the receiving equipment.

He also defines a digital mode as one where we use a computer or computer terminal in the process of transmitting or receiving.

I hope that this keeps both sides happy.

Murray (ZL1PBU) has a respectable website on digital modes and is worth a look to any one interested in more info.

Regards

Brian
VK3UXB ex ZL1UXB

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K7FD on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Webster defines the word digit as "any of the divisions in which the limbs of most vertebrates terminate, which are typically five in number but may be reduced (as in the horse), and which typically have a series of phalanges bearing a nail, claw, or hoof at the tip -- compare FINGER 1, TOE"

Since I use my fingers to send cw, I'd say, yes, it's a digital mode.

73 John K7FD

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>The minimum number of elements in a data stream using Morse code is 3.

The minimum can be two. 1 = key down, 0 = key up

111010111010001110111010111

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W9OY on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

If you look at the signals going on inside a computer, they are not really "digital" either. There are no nice little square on and off 1's and 0's, but basically distorted sine waves with behavior that is interpreted in a digital way. Often the 0 is not zero at all but just some voltage below what a 1 is. So from that perspective even the holy grail of "digital" aka the computer is not truly digital except in concept. Timing is also important in the "digital" world just ask anyone who deals with I/O at a machine level. What is schematized in the books is not what you see on an oscilloscope

One problem with this discussion is that "binary" is not precisely equivalent with "digital" Code is not at all equivalent with analogue.

73 W9OY

RE: Is everybody happy now?

by K3NG on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>Now that you have all participated in the silly game of defining concepts and calling them reality are you any more informed than you were before? Do you have the objective truth now? Have you all seen clearly who was right and who was wrong?

It is a pointless debate, however I would rather see folks arguing about this rather than who is a real ham based on what test they took :-) I'd welcome more articles like this if it would keep the code debates out of our forums.

Future topics:

Megahertz or megacycle, which is better?

Siemens, with ohms around, who needs it?

Which way is the correct way to call CQ?

American Morse Code, the real Morse Code?

A primer on UTC versus GMT....and what's this Zulu stuff?

RE: Is everybody happy now?

by K8MHZ on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Megahertz or megacycle, which is better?"

Hey now!!

My Point

by K2IY on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

My point is that the term "digital mode" was a term coined back in the 1980's when the new modes like packet, pactor and amtor came on the scene and they required decoding with external hardware which was made with "digital" logic integrated circuits. Therefore the "digital modes" could only be enabled by a station which had these digital devices, hence they were designated "digital modes".

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W5DXP on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

> K3NG wrote: The minimum can be two. 1 = key down, 0 = key up 111010111010001110111010111 <

Exactly, and that's a digital binary code consisting of fixed length binary bits of either a logic 'one' or a logic 'zero'. The WPM is set by adjusting the duration of a single 'dit' bit. Machine generated Morse code is certainly digital and binary. The baud rate for Morse code is one divided by the length of a 'dit'. If a 'dit' is 100 mS, then the baud rate is 10 bits per second. In the past, I have programmed a microcontroller to covert a PC keyboard to Morse code on/off keying to key a transmitter's straight key input.

ASCII is certainly digital. Including a logic 'one' for a start bit and a logic 'zero' for a stop bit, here's a digital binary hexadecimal number stream in ASCII: D7h, 17h, 1Ch

0111010111010001011101000111000

If you run that ASCII bit stream into a Morse code oscillator, you will get CRT. If one used a UART to strip off the start and stop bits (normal operation for a UART), one could send Morse code as ASCII characters and convert them to audio with a simple on/off audio oscillator.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

How many angels fit on the head of a pin?

by AI2IA on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"It is a pointless debate, however I would rather see folks arguing about this rather than who is a real ham based on what test they took :-) I'd welcome more articles like this if it would keep the code debates out of our forums.
Future topics:
Megahertz or megacycle, which is better?
Siemens, with ohms around, who needs it?
Which way is the correct way to call CQ?
American Morse Code, the real Morse Code?
A primer on UTC versus GMT....and what's this Zulu stuff?"
Yes, keep all these "scholars" busy with absolute trivia. This way they will stay off the air waves and ham radio will surely be doomed.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>In the past, I have programmed a microcontroller to covert a PC keyboard to Morse code on/off keying to key a transmitter's straight key input.

Me, too, kinda sorta. I programmed a PIC Keyer http://www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/pic/pic_keyer_2.html . I learned a lot about Morse Code timing with this project. One I/O line keys the transmitter...on or off...hey, that's digital! :-)

On a somewhat related topic, do you know of any PIC code that will take a Morse code input (i.e. from a paddle) and convert it to a keyboard signal to go into a PC?

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3XL on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

So Morse code was originally digital, became analog for awhile in practice, and now it is a mix. I didn't know that Samuel Morse actually was expecting the code to be sent by the numbers and that it was originally intended to be machine readable. In view of this fact, I guess I can say that those who do not send their code using the appropriate mathematical relationships in forming their characters are throwbacks to the interim period when Morse code took on some analog characteristics. So it is clear that the code itself (the use of the word code in it's name is a big clue) is digital, but an element of analog "skills" has become a part of its heritage.

IMHO, it is important to try to learn something every day. Thanks!

Also, I watch the Geico ads, so don't feel bad if you are called a throwback. I respect throwbacks.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by PLANKEYE on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Sometimes we all get knocked off our little square. Something hits a nerve and we get knocked off our square. Our little square in life. You guys know what I mean. CW is what it is.

PLANKEYE

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by RX1 on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

This is interesting. One of the questions in the General exam pool, is whether CW and a few other modes are digital or analog in nature. If the topic is up for this much debate, what does that say about the validity of the question in the pool?

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by RX1 on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

By the way,

The correct answer, according to the pool, is digital.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N1XBP on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I really never understood the debate about this.

Analog - Capable of existing in an infinite number of states with theoretical infinate precision over a given time period.

Digital - Capable of existing in a given number of finite states with finite precision over a given time period.

Binary - Capable of existing in only two finite states over a given time period. (high and low)

Analog can be sampled to digital, but only by averaging all the values the signal occupied over a time period to one value with finite precision. The smaller the time period, the more accurately you can sample the analog waveform.

The new digital signal is not digital because it is limited to two states. It could have quite a few.

We can use binary to represent the digital values we have after sampling the analog waveform. In practice, the amount of availble states and their precision would be determined by the largest binary number we can store. Decent sampling of the full audio spectrum is about 16 bits at 44 Khz sampling rate.

There are two components of CW.. a tone that is on or off, and a time reference. We standardize the time reference with proper spacing. It serves to syncronize the transmission. If CW is being sent perfectly, a sample occuring at a regular rate would encounter only tone or no tone, high or low, 1 or 0, and the tone would be consistant over that entire time period. To represent it, we need only two values, 1 or 0.. there is no in between.

So, it appears to me, that it is most accurate to say CW is a binary digital mode.

Is RTTY an analog mode when computers aren't used? It requires a syncronization (time domain) and then a state (mark or space) that does not change in the sampled chunk of time. Yet no one is arguing this should be an analog mode. What's the difference? The fact that I can't copy it in my head?

With CW, it's just a simple enough encoding that our brains can demodulate it for us. When you are good at it, your brain even demodulates the entire character at once without any counting of dots or dashes, just the way an ASCII character is decoded by machinery.

In my opinion, case closed.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N5GLR on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Simple answer ....

When computer generated (e.g. electonic keyer) - YES

When "hand" generated (i.e. straight key) - NO

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N1XBP on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Just wanted to add.. things don't have to be binary to be digital. We could represent the English alphabet in a base 26 system, and then encode each letter as some voltage between 1 and 26 volts. G would convert to 7 volts. That's digital but not binary. Binary is just easier to engineer switches with two states instead of 26. For instance, what is 7.5 volts going to be? It's just easier to say, if there is any voltage at all, it's high, if not, low.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by PLANKEYE on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG:

Rick, don't worry about it, not all my posts are about you. scroll down brother!

PLANKEYE

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N4DSP on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Who cares! This is like debating how many angels can fit on a pinhead. Go operate, use cw, enjoy the mode, and have fun instead of sitting behind this dumb keyboard filibustering.

73
john-n4dsp

Have fun with CW.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K8MHZ on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Well, I happen to know for sure that 4 angels can fit on a panhead. It's crowded, and they can't be fat, but it is done at Sturgis all the time.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4JF on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Simpler answer: yes.

Always. Doesn't matter what device is used to send it, it is 2 states. Wave shaping (which is necessary) does add some analog characteristics to what is essentially a binary signal. But that does not change the fact that it is two states. The simplist digital.

Basic.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KD8DNR on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4UUG, K4UUG, K4UUG!!!!

Seriously, if you want to plagiarize, K4UUG, you might as well discontinue writing in the forum. Not only is it bad etiquette, it's illegal.

Thank you,
A lowly NCT

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AI4IT on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Plagiarism is the practice of claiming, or implying, original authorship, or incorporating material from someone else's written or creative work in whole or in part, into ones own, without adequate acknowledgment. The written or creative work which is plagiarized may be a book, article, musical score, film script, or other work. Unlike cases of forgery, in which the authenticity of the writing, document, or some other kind of object, itself is in question, plagiarism is concerned with the issue of false attribution.

Within academia, plagiarism by students, professors, or researchers is considered academic dishonesty or academic fraud and offenders are subject to academic censure. In journalism, plagiarism is considered a breach of journalistic ethics, and reporters caught plagiarizing typically face disciplinary measures ranging from suspension to termination. Some individuals caught plagiarizing in academic or journalistic contexts claim that they plagiarized unintentionally, by failing to include quotations or give the appropriate citation. While plagiarism in scholarship and journalism has a centuries-old history, the development of the Internet, where articles appear as electronic text, has made the physical act of copying the work of others much easier." -Wikepedia

Man, I wish I had penned the above. But I can right more better than you guys who thank you are the most bestest.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N6AJR on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Boolean??

I can count in boolean on my fingers to 256. it is digital and also using digits, which also makes it digital...:)

and why is it the same half dozen guys stir the same pot with the same stick.

it seems some folks only play ham radio on eham, and only like to irritate others, and have no other purpose.. such a waste of energy

I got an Idea, if any one posts a stupid post, lets all ignore it.. just skip over them like they don't exist, perhaps they will stop , eventually.

I think that is what I will do, we are coming up on an interesting time in Ham Radio, and I for one am curious as to how Life on the air will change..

I really don't count Eham and QRZ as ham radio. I class them as internet about ham radio, there is a difference..eh

Don't you just love all the white space I put in my post.. :)

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by K4UUG on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KD8DNC "at 11 years old, CB was boring me"
So at 29 you live at home with mom and dad and now you have the world wide web good buddy.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by K4UUG on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KD8DNR "at 11 years old, CB was boring me"
Mike So at 29 you live at home with mom and dad and now you have the world wide web to play good buddy on.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KD8DNR on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Excellent comeback. If I could only be as witty as you.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KR4WM on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Someone has obviously stolen the real K4UUG's identity here on eHam. I can't believe someone who portrays themselves to be an adult would post such puerile nonsense, and I further find it hard to understand why the moderators would allow such juvenile behavior to continue to be displayed here. Perhaps it's one of K4UUG's children using his computer? Someone should call this child's father and let him in on what he's doing! If it's truly an adult, I feel sorry for him. He must have no life whatsoever. -KR4WM

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N6TZ on February 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Of course it is, and you can use it anywhere on the HF bands. What is the question again? and Why?

Hal, N6TZ

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W8JI on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Carl W9PMZ,

Read and lok before you leap, or think before you type.

During the transition from zero to fulllevel CW is EXACTLY the same as AM, and like AM it has periods of sustained no-modulation output.

On the up or downwing it has both upper and lower sidebands that extend outwards to a frequency determined exclusively by the slope and duration of the rise or fall, and this is EXACTLY equal to AM modulation because for any of us who understand the meaning of AM it is amplitude modulation.

Neither the blank carrier when the key is held nor the off period when the key is released occupy any bandwidth, only the periods of modulation when the level is changing do.

CW has an upper sideband and a lower sideband during modulation transitions, just like AM does.

And just like AM it doesn't matter how fast or slow you talk, the bandwidth is still the same. Only the rise and fall times and shape of the rise and fall times, which relate to the applied modulation of the envelope, determine bandwidth.

CW, just like AM or other amplitude modulation schemes, has to process through linear stages or the envelope shape will distort during modulation and bandwidth will increase. There will be higher frequency and stronger level upper and lower sidebands during modulation if a clean CW signal is run through a non-linear amplifier.

So CW is EXACTLY like AM, except the modulation is always 100%. The modulation duration and slope (the rise and fall time periods) sets the bandwidth.

73 Tom

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W8JI on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Carl W9PMZ,

Read and look before you leap, or think before you type.

During the transition from zero to full level CW is EXACTLY the same as AM, and like AM it has periods of sustained no-modulation output.

On the up or down swing it has both upper and lower sidebands that extend outwards to a frequency determined exclusively by the slope and duration of the rise or fall, and this is EXACTLY equal to AM modulation. For any of us who understand the meaning of AM it is amplitude modulation.

Neither the blank carrier when the key is held nor the off period when the key is released occupy any bandwidth, only the periods of modulation when the level is changing do.

CW has an upper sideband and a lower sideband during modulation transitions, just like AM does.

And just like AM it doesn't matter how fast or slow you talk, the bandwidth is still the same. Only the rise and fall times and shape of the rise and fall times, which relate to the applied modulation of the envelope, determine bandwidth.

CW, just like AM or other amplitude modulation schemes, has to process through linear stages or the envelope shape will distort during modulation and bandwidth will increase. There will be higher frequency and stronger level upper and lower sidebands during modulation if a clean CW signal is run through a non-linear amplifier.

So CW is EXACTLY like AM, except the modulation is always 100%. The modulation duration and slope (the rise and fall time periods) sets the bandwidth.

My Globe Scout works this way, as does my FT1000MK V and Orion. It is how and what it is and cannot be changed.

73 Tom

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by AB3CX on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Don't you guys have a project to work on or an antenna to fix instead of a silly question like this?

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W7LV on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Occasionally, toes , as well. But then, Toes are Digits, too...right?

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KX8N on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"So CW is EXACTLY like AM, except the modulation is always 100%."

There's no argument about what the signal itself is. In computers the 1's and 0's aren't always a full +5 volts or an absolute 0 volts, either. Four volts is considered a "1", also. The argument for CW being digital is the fact that it uses discrete dits and dahs as opposed to the continuously variable voice of SSB, AM, and FM.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K3NG on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

>CW, just like AM or other amplitude modulation schemes, has to process through linear stages or the envelope shape will distort during modulation and bandwidth will increase. There will be higher frequency and stronger level upper and lower sidebands during modulation if a clean CW signal is run through a non-linear amplifier.

Many CW QRP rigs have a couple non-linear class C stages with a low pass filter at the end and they don't increase the bandwidth or have "hard" keying.

>Carl W9PMZ, Read and look before you leap, or think before you type

I don't think Carl's posts are off base, and they are actually some of the best thought out ones here. He's right in that there is no modulating signal. While transmitters may treat CW as an AM signal in its generation and subsequent amplification, that doesn't necessarily mean it's an AM signal.

>So CW is EXACTLY like AM, except the modulation is always 100%. The modulation duration and slope (the rise and fall time periods) sets the bandwidth

An AM signal that is 100% modulated has a waveform whereby the amplitude increases to the maximum power and decreases to nearly zero carrier, at the frequency of the modulating signal. To create an AM signal that is "100% modulated" in the way you are saying, the modulating signal would have to be DC. By the definition of AM, can a modulating signal be DC?

If I were to take a different tact and say that the keying line is essentially the modulating signal, in order to be "true AM", the transmitter would have to put out **50% power during key up times**. Clearly CW transmitters do not do this, nor is it consistent with the definition of CW.

While a CW signal may be "AM-like" during key up and key down, the presence of sidebands doesn't mean its AM. The sidebands do not carry any intelligent information and are merely a product of carrier rise time and fall time.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K7PEH on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

From K3NG -- By the definition of AM, can a modulating signal be DC?

If you consider the mathematical representation of a AM signal and the modulating function then the answer is 'yes'. The modulating function could be represented as a square wave where you have two DC levels: 0 volts and X volts whatever X needs to be. But, absolute square waves are discontinuous and therefore are best represented by a Fourier series expansion.

Now, mathematically you have all kinds of features to make this as perfect as you need, features like infinity used in various forms.

I bring up the example of a square wave merely to have a connection with the keying action of a telegraph key. However, mathematically it is still the same math (technically) even if it were not a square wave and instead just a constant DC voltage.

I think we need another article where we discuss the extent we can all go with the definition of AM -- I am only talking about the math side of this definition but there are indeed many other views one can take.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by SM0AOM on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

It is quite obivous that there is a lack of understanding of exactly what modulation is,
as more than 100 year old misunderstandings still are propagated.

In the early years of "radio" the concept of modulation was not well understood, and heated debates whether or not sidebands existed raged through the "learned journals". The whole "knot" was solved by the brilliant matematical physicist John R. Carson in 1915. He filed a concise patent application;
"Method of and Means for Transmitting Signals" which contained the essentials of modulation theory as we know it today.

However, as early as 1878, Lord Rayleigh had described the concept of modulation and sidebands using acoustical analogies, and appears to have understood that modulation can involve mixing processes.

It is well proven, both theoretically and in practice, that all the intelligence transmitted is in the sidebands. A steady unmodulated carrier conveys no information except that it exists, and actually this information is in the sidebands that the turn-on and turn-off transient creates. The information content in the sidebands is further independent of how slow or fast the modulating function varies (at least below the Nyquist frequency, above it you need to take aliasing and convolution into account).

This is a consequence of the boundary conditions necessary to satisfy the differential equations that describe the variation of the signal over time. To solve these exactly, the "window of observation" will have to extend in time from minus infinity to plus infinity. This is completly acceptable to matematicians and physicists, but we engineers seldom have the patience to wait that long.

Thus we have to accept some counter-intuitive behaviour of modulated waveforms, such as when the envelope of the AM waveform as seen on the oscilloscope screen appears to go down to zero, even if we know that the carrier is constant.

Any amplifier that has a non-linear behaviour will change the characteristics of a keyed carrier fed through it. A very malignant form of non-linearity is the "discontinuity", which is exhibited by especially Class C amplifiers. These are characterised by the behaviour that they have an "input threshold" that has to be exceeded to provide any output. In the time domain this is equivalent to a considerable shortening of the rise and fall times of the keying envelope, and to "key clicks" in the frequency domain.

The practice of "pre-shaping" the keying envelope before passing it through a Class C amplifier or multiplier stage was quite common when CW transmitters consisted of long multiplier chains feeding a Class C final amplifier.

If the transmitter was multi-band, different keying shaping could be applied depending on the output frequency in use.

The reason that you "get away" with passing the keyed carrier of a QRP transmitter through a Class C stage, is primarily that the key clicks from QRP transmitters are proportionally weaker, or that the envelope is "pre-shaped" somewhere in the signal chain.

73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W8JI on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

by K3NG on February 2, 2007 wrote:

Many CW QRP rigs have a couple non-linear class C stages with a low pass filter at the end and they don't increase the bandwidth or have "hard" keying.>>

That's an impossible statement to be accurate.

1.) The bandwidth of a CW directly relates to the envelope shape of the rise and fall, and the time of the rise and fall.

2.) If we run ANY CW signal through a true class C amplifier it increases the slope of rise and fall, and that always generates more and wider sidebands.

You may not *think* it changes the bandwidth and adds more clicks because the signal is so weak to start with you can't hear hear the clicks, but it absolutely does make it wider and to the exact same extent it would bother any other amplitude varying signal.

I don't think Carl's posts are off base, and they are actually some of the best thought out ones here.>>

They are actually some of the most incorrect, regardless of what we might think or guess.

>>He's right in that there is no modulating signal.>>

Nonsense. If there is no modulating signal then there is no information that can be conveyed. It is AMPLITUDE modulation. It looks like AM on a spectrum analyzer (frequency domain), and it looks like AM on a scope (time domain).

<<While transmitters may treat CW as an AM signal in its generation and subsequent amplification, that doesn't necessarily mean it's an AM signal.>>

So it isn't amplitude modulated? Then how does it convey information if the amplitude does not change? Is it frequency modulation? Phase modulation? Or does the level vary from nothing to full? If you correctly agree the level varies, then please explain how that is done without generating both upper and lower sidebands along with the carrier.

<<An AM signal that is 100% modulated has a waveform whereby the amplitude increases to the maximum power and decreases to nearly zero carrier, at the frequency of the modulating signal.>>

Bingo. You just described CW.

<<To create an AM signal that is "100% modulated" in the way you are saying, the modulating signal would have to be DC. By the definition of AM, can a modulating signal be DC?>>

No, because DC never varies. CW is a slow square wave at the key. If applied directly to the transmitter bandwidth would be infinite, the rig would "click" terribly. What happens in a good rig is the square wave from the key is filtered through a low pass filter so it has a raised sine shape. this sine shape modulates the envelope, and contains no harmonics. The sidebands appear spaced above and below the carrier by the inverse of the period of the complete sinewave of rise and fall, each rise and each fall being 1/2 of a cycle.

<If I were to take a different tact and say that the keying line is essentially the modulating signal, in order to be "true AM", the transmitter would have to put out **50% power during key up times**. Clearly CW transmitters do not do this, nor is it consistent with the definition of CW.>>

Sorry, there is NO rule that says a transmitter can't start on the negative modulation peak. That's exactly what the CW transmitter does. It starts at the negative peak, which is raised to zero output level. Hence we call it a "raised sine wave" in a perfect CW transmitter with minimum bandwidth.

<<While a CW signal may be "AM-like" during key up and key down, the presence of sidebands doesn't mean its AM. The sidebands do not carry any intelligent information and are merely a product of carrier rise time>>

So if we eliminate them, then we cannot hear the start or stop of a tone. If we cannot hear the start or stop of a tone, no information is conveyed.

This stuff has been around for well over 100 years, and it is at the very root of problems faced with long telegraph lines!! People in the 1800's solved it (and standing waves distorting the waveform), and here we are Hams who apparently haven't a clue how the most basic form of modulation works!

I guess this is because we don't think, and just repeat what is really gross misinformation if it agrees with our distorted views.

At least engineering texts understand the mode, even if people who use the mode don't.

73 Tom

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W8JI on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Actually I don't want to sound so "rough" about this, but it is a pretty simple basic mode.

Even engineers at major manufacturers seem to not understand CW generation, and the ARRL Handbook had the ideal waveform and the cause of excessive bandwidth wrong for years. It is corrected now.

It's just very ironic now that CW is no longer required in a test, our technical references are finally getting it right!

Commercial and engineering books always have had it correct, but apparently it never filtered through the system into amateur books until recently.

I have had an Internet reference up for several years at:

http://www.w8ji.com/keyclicks.htm

with links to other pages that also explain CW modulation. I think Doug Smith has a page up also now.

Accurate information is spreading, and manufacturers are finally starting to do better also.

73 Tom

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4CX on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

This is the most idiotic post I've seen in a loooong time. Who the heck cares? No wonder hams are ridiculed as cavemen that are no longer contributing to the state of the communications art.

We're too busy examining our aging navels!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by PLANKEYE on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Ya know fellas, I see so many people posting so much on these posts that is absoulutely insulting to this hobby. Unfortunately it does not stop on E-ham. It's on the air also. If you can't see that you are blind. I have a chest full of medals, I made the cover of whatever contest mag three straight months. I can build anything. I can copy 30 WPM when I am sleeping. It seems to me it's all about you! What you can do and what other people should be doing. Rick says things that are completely disfunctional. Some here are actual teachers of our children, and spew hatred toward other people. I simply can't understand that. Why can't people treat other people with RESPECT? Can anyone answer this?

PLANKEYE

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KN4LF on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Yes it's not, no it is.

73,
Thomas Giella, KN4LF
http://www.kn4lf.com

Entertainment-

by N0AH on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I want to take the time to thank those of you who have made this an entertaining (fictional) experience. From the CB jocks, to the copyright protection hounds, to the know it alls, to the "I believe everything thing I'm reading" types, and to the bragerts (glad I'm not one), we have seen it all. And

I hope the next set of articles are:

1. Marlin Fishing with my Dipole
2. Builiding my Death Ray Beam for EME Contesting
3. My First UA/BA Submarine QSO on 160M
4. Setting the Record Straight on Legal Penguin Kills on VK0M Islands
5. Why Do Power Meters on Amplifiers go up to 2.5KW?

xxx ooo
Paul.....N0AH

p.s. Just got done putting up my new 70 foot self supporting tower with 4/4 fluid driven things made by envy recreation.

RE: Entertainment-

by N3OX on February 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Re CW Sidebands:

"So if we eliminate them, then we cannot hear the start or stop of a tone. If we cannot hear the start or stop of a tone, no information is conveyed."

I think in this context it's better to state it in the reverse order. In order to convey information, you have to turn the CW tone on and off, and the transitions generate sidebands.

It's actually be the presence or absence of the carrier for some duration that carries information here. You could ignore the sidebands on every transition and still decode some CW (I'm thinking, for example, VLF QRSS CW where you're using FFT software to decode the signal. ) In cases like this, the existence of sidebands during the transition is immaterial as long as you can, on average, tell the difference between "carrier exists" and "carrier doesn't exist". You can miss the transition with its extra spectral content and still notice that the state has changed.

It doesn't really matter that the transitions have sidebands if you're looking at a little white line on an FFT screen and reading it like a strip recorder.

It's a different story if you're copying by ear, for sure, but it's not the spectral content of the transitions, per se, that carry the information.

Dan

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by VE6DRW on February 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Clearly, Morse Code is a digital mode - as the concept that a series of binary states arranged in a specific combination can convey data - is the essence of "digital". Also, consider that the purpose of the binary states is to convey data, and not merely a by-product of them.

Thus, is your car horn a digital device? - YES, it has two states. Is sounding the car horn a digital mode? - NO, unless you are trying to convey a message with it - beyond a warning to "get out of my way".

Morse Code is an older digital mode that pre-dates machine generated and readable devices; years ago it was the ONLY way to communicate over long distances in real time. Thus, the human element creeps in with all the associated folklore and history - and it tends to morph into something beyond its original intent. I think this is what has polarized the debate over the "code-free" license.

If we all used computers to send and receive Morse Code - just like PSK31 or RTTY - I wonder how long the "love affair" would last? The march of technology has relegated Morse Code from the "must know" to the "nice to know". I learned math the "hard way", by adding and subtracting using a pencil and paper; my son uses a calculator. By all accounts, he's more knowledgeable than me because he can use his time more efficiently by leveraging the tools available to him.

CW Generation

by W8JI on February 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Hi Dan,

It doesn't matter how we look at the problem, or how we break it down and draw lines. ANY transition in level of a signal generates sidebands.

If we consider a 60Hz power line and slowly raise the level, we are amplitude modulating that 60Hz carrier. The rate of increase or decrease in level has to generate sidebands, and they will be upper and lower sidebands just like AM. The lower sideband is limited in the real world at zero Hz.

If we do the level change in a switch the sidebands can be so wide we hear a click in a receiver tuned high above 60 Hz. If we change it slower the signal is narrower. If we change it in a square wave envelope shape it has mostly odd harmonics of the slope.

This is because every waveform other than a steady level sine wave or dc is a mixture of different frequencies.

It doesn't matter how we break the problem down, the unbendable fact is if you are copying information the transmitter is generating sidebands. Without generating sidebands the level could never change, so we would have nothing to copy.

It is during the level transitions that sidebands are generated, and the spacing and amplitude of the sidebands (assuming the transmitter is a modulating pure carrier without noise or FM) depends 100% on the wave shape of the rise and fall.

If we put that through a non-linear amplifier it will change the shape of the rise and fall, and if we initially started with a highly filtered square wave to produce a raised sine (where the negative peak starts at zero amplitude) on the rise and fall the two sidebands will be half the reciprocal of the rise or fall period away from the carrier. With a 5ms rise it would be (1/.005)/2 = 100Hz above and below the carrier. That would be true regardless of CW speed and regardless if you could pick out the sidebands from noise or not. The signal would be 200Hz wide.

If we distort that raised sine waveform by running it into a non-linear amplifier some portion of the wave will change shape. It will no longer be a pure sine function without harmonics, so the signal will have some modulation at higher frequencies. This is true whether you can hear the sidebands through your noise or not.

Even if we don't like it or don't want it to be this way, there is no way to change this. It is what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_analysis

The key is off and on and generates a raised square wave; open is normally off (high on the terminals) and closed is normally on (low on the terminals). When we pull the transmitter input low the carrier goes high. It is inverted by the transmitter.

This is AM starting at full negative envelope (zero carrier) and rising to full envelope at a key input low (low on the raised square wave input).

The job of the transmitter is to filter the square waves and make them as close to a raised sine wave shape as possible. If it is non-linear anywhere after the filtering it will add distortion to the envelope and increase bandwidth. This is why ALC in many modern radios hoses up the bandwidth on CW (and SSB).

It really is important we understand this basic concept.

By the way, telegraphers faced this very problem on long telegraph lines. Standing waves on the lines would enhance and oppose different frequencies of sidebands generated when sending, and this would distort the envelope. The result was a limit to how fast the code could be sent over long distance lines. It was envelope distortion, and it mutilated the code being sent.

73 Tom

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W5DXP on February 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

> VE6DRW wrote: Morse Code is an older digital mode that pre-dates machine generated and readable devices; <

Actually, the original Morse Code was *read by a machine*. Here's a reference from the web.

"Morse and Vail's initial telegraph system, which first went into operation in 1844, marked a paper tape — when an electrical current was transmitted, the receiver's electromagnet rotated an armature, so that it began to scratch a moving tape, and when the current was removed the receiver retracted the armature, so that portion of the tape was left unmarked. The Morse code was developed so that operators could translate the indentions marked on the paper tape into text messages."

It was only *after* machine readable Morse code was invented that operators discovered that they could copy by ear.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

RE: Entertainment-

by PLANKEYE on February 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I want to take the time to thank all the people that may have read, or read in the future, my posts. I hope in my heart it makes you think. If just for a moment. It's about respect for others!! Period. Either you have it or you don't!!

PLANKEYE

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I seriously think that we need to submit ,to whom ever the Historian Officals are, that Samual Morse be reconignized as "The Father of Digital Communications"

Whether you feel morse code is digital or not, it does exhibit the basic principles of digital communications, a series of on's/off's (0's & 1's) being carried over a CW (continous wave) carrier. The exact same thing that is being done today, only at much higher speeds.

Marconi stoled the title of the Father of Radio from Fessenden, as Marconi ran with the money and had the press. So lets give this title to the right guy!

~"Samual Morse...
The Father of Digital Communications"~

73 de W4LGH - ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by WB7AVF on February 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

No!--according to Ken (my coworker and database manager here at www.rilm.org ): "Digital not only involves discrete states but discrete Packets within which that state is defined". "A clock pulse defines those packets".

Therefore, my Norcal keyer's PROM buffer sends digital morse. My straight key doesn't.

Intervals between sent signals can vary with great subtlety when sending with a straight key. Hence the term "fist". Not unlike a musician's "feel". A machine cannot possibly "quantize" all of these subtle intervals, though they're getting closer all the time. There is a program MAX/isp that is used in music performance that DOES respond to variations. No longer is a clock-steady MIDI signal required.

From a musician

73...
WB7AVF/2

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W7ETA on February 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Who knew this question would become a ticking time bomb?

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4JF on February 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I don't know why there is even a question. It is two states, on and off. (The fact that there is a transition in RF is irrelevant - morse doesn't have to be radio, it can be sound, light, direct wire, etc.)

The data are conveyed by the operation of those two states. No other. It cannot be analog by that definition. Therefore it is digital. Period!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W5DXP on February 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

> WB7AVF wrote: Therefore, my Norcal keyer's PROM buffer sends digital morse. My straight key doesn't. Intervals between sent signals can vary with great subtlety when sending with a straight key. <

Yep, they can vary with so much subtlety that I can't copy them. :-) My straight key sends digital Morse with as close an accuracy to the Morse code specifications as I can muster. Now we need an article titled, "Is Farnsworth real Morse code since it violates the Morse code specification?" :-)
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I still say "SAMUAL MORSE...The FATHER of DIGITAL"
Now a title for Farnsworth...as he did humanize it further.

Less not forget that CW alone can NOT convey any intellegence, without Morse code or any other modulation schemes (AM/FM/DIGITAL PACKET ETC) SSB is the only mode that does NOT contain CW as its host.

73 Alan

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE7AKS on February 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I think that I was somewhere misinformed to think that CW stood for Continuous Wave -- transmit on with carrier only -- for short dration for a dot, and transmit on for a long duration for a dash. Amplitude determined by the ammount of power used. The signal received required a tone modulation on the recieving end for human ears to hear it using a BFO = BEAT FREQUENCY OCILATOR. Turn the BFO off and all you hear is a sound like popcorn popping... This could be heavy duty switching, so one could actually use AMPLITUDE MODULATION by turning the power all the way up, then all the way down, or put a tone on the continuous wave, for short duration for a dot, long duration for a dash, but leaving the transmitter carrier on at the desaired power output.
As far as emission type I have no clue.
I seem to remember NOVICE transmitters that had no modulation but the transmitter was on, or off! that sounds like digital to me, but they used morse code to send information. Im sure someone can enlighten me .

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W5DXP on February 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

CW is a misnomer. It is obviously not literally a "continuous wave". But it is relatively "continuous" compared to a spark gap, the early versions of which were not continuous.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on February 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

W8JI says: "It doesn't matter how we break the problem down, the unbendable fact is if you are copying information the transmitter is generating sidebands. Without generating sidebands the level could never change, so we would have nothing to copy. "

Yes, for sure, the transmitter must generate sidebands in order to transmit information.

However, I don't *necessarily* have to copy any of those sidebands to copy the Morse. This is quite distinct from phone.

Transmitting information always occupies some bandwidth but copying those transmissions doesn't require the reception of all the signal in that bandwidth. With Morse you can make the RX bandwidth nearly zero and still copy, if not by ear, then by some other means. Do the same thing with a phone signal and it doesn't take long before it becomes unintelligible.

So, your points about keying are important and well taken, but I'm sticking with "the sidebands don't carry the information" for Morse over CW. You *must generate them* to transmit information but you don't necessarily have to receive any of them in order to copy the information.

Dan

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K7PEH on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

OK, everybody is wrong. Even me on my previous posts. All are wrong, none are right.

CW is both digital and analog.

I realized this while sleeping last night (when I do my best thinking as I dream) and noticed that CW is BOTH digital and analog.

The letter C is obviously continuous (that is, mathematically continuous). And, since good analog signals are continuous, C is analog.

The letter W is discontinous. I mean, it has three points of discontinuity in its interval. Most good digital signals are discontinuous so W is digital.

Therefore, CW is both analog and digital.

End of story!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by NI0C on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Quotes from N3OX:

"However, I don't *necessarily* have to copy any of those sidebands to copy the Morse. This is quite distinct from phone."

This is wrong. You do have to "copy" some of the sidebands.

"Transmitting information always occupies some bandwidth but copying those transmissions doesn't require the reception of all the signal in that bandwidth."

Your operative word here is "all."

"With Morse you can make the RX bandwidth nearly zero and still copy, if not by ear, then by some other means."

Your operative word here is "nearly."

"Do the same thing with a phone signal and it doesn't take long before it becomes unintelligible."

That's only because AM phone (as well as FM) signals occupy so much more bandwidth.

"So, your points about keying are important and well taken, but I'm sticking with "the sidebands don't carry the information" for Morse over CW. You *must generate them* to transmit information but you don't necessarily have to receive any of them in order to copy the information. "

Wrong-- again you need at least some of the sidebands to copy Morse CW signals. Here's an experiment that will empirically prove what W8JI and SM0AOM have been saying:

Find an early morning QSO on 80 meters between W4BQF and W9FCX (3524 Khz, circa 1100 UTC). These guys regularly use speeds upwards of 60 wpm. Now apply a very narrow linear-phase DSP audio bandpass filter to their signals. I use an MFJ784B DSP unit that can go down to 30 Hz in bandwidth. Notice the difference in your ability to distinguish words at a 30 Hz bandwidth versus, say 100 Hz. I've done this myself several times. The difference is striking.

73,
Chuck NI0C

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC7QDO on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Hmm CW being a digital mode.

I don't think it is. It is on and off yes but it was designed to be used for analog machines.

The insertion of a tone gives it a analog means of transferring. The old machines that sent and receive it where mechanical. Not digital through a microprocessor. Then the newer machine that was all solid state you still are generating a analog tone.

A true digital mode would not be capable with a CW transceiver and a digital transceiver is not capable with a CW receiver.

Mechanical means of some sort to create the tone for the on off. Digital is a electronic signal all they way through period. That is like calling a relay digital and all CW is a manual manipulation of a rely.

Communications between components do not have a CW scheme allot of them now are using pulsed modulation or some other means. I have never seen CW between digital stages.

So in a nutshell no it is not digital it was never designed to be and will never be. It works great but it is not digital.

As far as the dits and the dahs go. Dit would = 1 and dah would =1 and the space would be zero. The problem would be a message like this if it was digital using A as an example.

In binay with dit and a dah how would you get 1101 or 0110 or 1001 and so so on when all you can send is 10101 101010 101010.

That would confuse a computer and me for that matter. Psk would print gibberish because it's alphabet is binary. Not 1010 that means nothing. Not all IC's can use 10101010 what if you need 100101 makes you think. Not all states are 101010101 that limits what we can do electronically.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE7AKS on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

OK, now it comes back to me!
<FROM WIKIPEDIA
"An unmodulated carrier has no bandwidth and conveys no information; the act of keying the carrier on and off produces a finite bandwidth relating to the transmission rate. Strictly speaking, a keyed carrier may be referred to as "ICW" for "Interrupted continuous wave" but the necessity of keying is usually understood.
Early radio transmitters were incapable of handling the complexity of actual audio and therefore CW was the only form of communication available. CW still remained a viable form of radio communication for many years after voice transmission was perfected, because simple transmitters could be used. The low bandwidth of the code signal, due in part to low information transmission rate, allowed very selective filters to be used in the receiver which blocked out much of the atmospheric noise that would otherwise reduce the intelligibility of the signal.">

Before AM radio was CW Radio NO MODULATION to the carrier WAVE... You had to have a Beat Frequency Oscillator which mixed a signal with the incomming signal to give an audible tone. This was referred to as, CW the Morse Code was used to make sense out of transmitted bursts of RF from a transmitter. Thus Morse Code was necessary to use CW, It had only interupted carrier NO MODULATION, you can't hear RF carriers, untill you beat a frequency with that signal. If you tune a radio to a frequency and hear tones sent by AM or FM using MORSE CODE, then it is not Ccntinuous Wave but modulated morse code, using AM, SSB, FM, or some other type emission.

I don't claim to be a RADIO GURU or EXPERT. I only have had military training from back in the 1950's
ATA school in Memphis Tennessee.

My conclusion is that If it is CW then it is digital.
So all CW is digital, but not all Morse Code is sent using CW, but it can be sent by other means even light.
the old life raft kits had mirrors and had morse code on the back, and a small hole in the center of the mirror for aming. You could flash code to aircraft or ships to rescue you. Some flashlights had morse code made in them, and a button thet you could use to flash code to someone -- digital communication using morse code --- We radio folks like to use CW to mean MORSE CODE.
73 Harv KE7AKS

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

NI0C says: "Wrong-- again you need at least some of the sidebands to copy Morse CW signals." and describes the experiment.

The experiment you propose certainly outlines the importance of sidebands during the transition for copy of fast CW by ear. You, Tom, and SM0AOM are 100% completely correct that significant sideband energy is necessary for copy under these conditions.

However, let's take an extreme example of what I'm thinking about:

You're copying a decently strong 160kHz QRSS signal by looking at an FFT waterfall of the signal. You're unfortunate enough to have frequent QRM that obliterates the beginning and end of every dot or dash, but the dots are *two seconds* long and the dashes are *six seconds* long. The rise and fall times are still some tens of milliseconds. The QRM duration is, say, 50ms and just happens to unluckily fall on every single on/off transition.

The message can still be copied easily. A dot is obviously different than a dash which is obviously different than the lack of both. In fact, if you've got a good memory and a good sense of timing and can actually hear this signal, you could copy by ear. You could use what would be considered a vanishingly narrow filter and still copy at this slow speed.

I retract what I said before. It's misleading of me to say "you can slice off the sidebands and still have copyable CW" because the spectrum of a CW pulse is continuous in frequency.

If we look at the plots at

http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/articles/click/index.html

for reference

and consider the two cases:

Fast CW: lots of information in the spectral content of the broad center peak, maybe it even helps to hear out beyond some secondary peaks.

Extremely slow CW: the central peak will become VERY high and VERY narrow. It will never be quite a delta function, but you could filter well within the two adjacent secondary peaks and still copy. You could not use a filter with *zero* bandwidth. You could use a filter with tiny bandwidth, though, much smaller than 30 Hz.

We should stop talking about the "sidebands" and probably start talking about the "sideband energy density" as W9CF's page lays out. That's part of the issue here.

I don't intend to be particularly misleading or argumentative, but I think that to say "the sidebands" suggests that you need to keep the secondary sin^2(x) peaks, which you don't. You just have to get enough of the central peak and be able to assign an absolute signal level that constitutes "on" and one that constitutes "off". You could potentially use a filter a few millihertz wide and still manage this for extreme QRSS situations.

You can't use a zero bandwidth filter to listen to CW, but you can lop off a huge amount of the transmitted spectral content for slow CW and still copy it.

In the QRSS, extremely narrow bandwidth case, it's misleading to claim that "If we cannot hear the start or stop of a tone, no information is conveyed. "

And it's certainly just plain wrong for me to say:

"You *must generate them* to transmit information but you don't necessarily have to receive any of them in order to copy the information. "

I wasn't appropriately picturing the true spectrum of a CW signal. There's no appropriate discrete-spectrum analogy to any of this.

My original problem came from the use of the term "sidebands" in this sort of discussion. I like "sideband energy". Saying "sidebands" makes me (and maybe some who still gives a rat's you-know-what about this discussion) think of the ***secondary peaks*** in the pictures on W9CF's page. That's why I said what I said.

For the QRSS signal, the central peak will be completely dominant, and you can practically use an arbitrarily narrow filter of some description. For the 60WPM signal you have to keep a lot more of the spectral content to get an intelligible signal.

And we're at the point where we'd actually have to put mathematical limits on what we considered intelligible and detectable, and we have to start thinking about types of filters and their responses.

In plain English, however, I think it's possible to "cut off the sidebands" and copy a QRSS signal but not a 60WPM one sent from the same transmitter.

Plain English discussions on the subject are a problem in and of themselves, but I don't want to get into that.

Dan

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Our brains are digital.
Our hearing and operating the key/keyboard are analog.
Our brains do A/D and D/A conversions.
Code must be converted to analog to be heard.
Since code is hand made, it is analog.
So "digital" must be converted to analog for us to send/receive it via our senses which are analog.
Therefore I feel that code is analog, unless it is converted to digital, then back to analog - in a computer or microchip device. What is a MODEM? It is an A/D, D/A converter.
CW is the result of code sent and heard via analog senses of a human being.
If code was digital, we could have a direct hookup into our brains without the ear and touch of the hand. Our brains do the conversion just like a computer CPU that may drive a speaker, switching, or other analog device after it changes the digital into analog. If code was digital, we would not worry about 5wpm, 13 wpm, 20 wpm and so on, it would be lightening fast - billions of words per minute!
I vote that CW is analog.

Even cell phones, pix, text, sound and all are analog when it comes to the mic and speaker. Even their signal is digital converted to analog via a MODEM. Sending digitally pulsed signals via wire, light, or RF are extreemly high freqs, and a cell phone must have a MODEM to convert the digital signals back to analog. Maybe I have over simplified this, but that's how I understand it. Our senses are analog, and our brains are digital.

I would think that analog is something variable that is measurable sort of like ohm's law, voltage, current, and resistance. Digital is simply pulses, sort of like combinations of yeses and noes.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think my ears convert air vibrations into digital pulses in my brain that are interpreted as whatever.

Cheerz, Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N2WEC on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

1 or 0.....ON or OFF. The answer here is clear. CW is digital. Its that easy. All have a great day.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Without speakers we cannot "hear" code,
speakers are analog, our ears are analog.
In a way, code can be considered as digital, as binary code is considered as digital.
But without AD/DA conversion, we cannot see digital, we cannot hear digital, etc. and we cannot copy digital code since it would be too fast for our analog comprehension. Code as digital would be extreemly fast if it weren't CONVERTED to analog.

Microprocessors are truely digital. But some IC's (microchips) are analog. I think the key differance would be that analog measures a variable (as in Ohm's law), whereas digital is simply on/off pulses. If code was simply on/off pulses, we would not be able to see it, hear it, or feel it. Our eyes, ears, and touch are analog receptors, and then our brain converts these sensors signals into binary or whatever our brains use.

Whether you use light, sound, or vibration to receive code, it is some form of analog signal being perceived my our senses. Light, sound and vibration are all CPS upon matter. Our sensors use analog freqs., in the sound spectrum, or light spectrum, in order to copy code. Our senses cannot perceive a simple on or off pulse unless it is converted to a much longer frequency duration of millions of pulses that react on matter. What is the duration of a "pulse" or bit? Perhaps a billionth of a second? In digital that is very s-l-o-w, but we cannot perceive that. A 1/10th of a second dit could take millions of on/off pulses for us to hear it as 500cps for 1/10th of a second. A DIT IS NOT THE SAME AS A BIT! A DIT is made up of many millions of bits vibrating air via a speaker through a MODEM and amp. So freqs of megabits cannot drive a loudspeaker in a digital state. A frequency of bits is still not what we see, hear, or feel as code until it is changed from digital to analog into light, sound, or vibration.

We can feel let's say a vibration of 100 cps. We can hear let's say 500 cps. We can see a red flashing light (whatever freq that is). So the digital pulses would have to be converted by a filament, voice coil, or vibrater via an AD/DA device for us to be able to interpret it via our senses. Bottum line, even if code was digital, it must be analog if we know what it is spelling out to us. I feel that time is what makes the DA/AD conversions necessary for us to use code. Our senses are too slow to copy purely digital code.

Yes code can be considered as digital somewhere along the way, but the code we hear must be analog.

Asking if code is digital is like asking if music is digital. Each note has a duration, a freq, a rest, and a pattern. Musical notation can be considered as digital. But without the analog vibrations of the instrument, (or loudspeaker) we cannot hear it. And hearing it is what makes it music to our ears! For music to be considered as digital, it must be converted as such. We cannot hear music when it is converted to a true digital state, then it would be more like a music program. But we can store it on a disk, send it over wires, fiber optics, and via RF, and we can do many things to the music (program) in the digital state. But until we PLAY it over the loudspeaker, it is not really music. You can also store music on a tape or record, and send an analog signal over the airwaves. It is not music because of how it was stored, it is music because of what we hear. XM digital broadcast has to go through a special receiver and be converted from digital to analog to become music through speakers. So this is why I feel that code has to be finally converted to analog for us to copy it. What would you hear if you played a real digital signal through a speaker? NOTHING! It would be too high a freq for the speaker to reproduce for one. And IF you heard it, it would be NOISE instead of music.

Don - so there!!!

73 Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K7PEH on February 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

The whole universe and everything in it is analog. You, me, and the sand on the seashore is analog.

Only because of our rudimentary intelligence do we perceive some things in this world as digital. In reality, everything that is physical and made of the dust of the earth is analog.

I am currently listening to two guys converse at around 25 wpm. I can get about every other word, maybe every third word and a number here and there. Although this is CW, ye olde Morse Code, it is music to my ears. Music is analog, therefore CW/Morse is analog.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KC8QFP on February 7, 2007 wrote..."What is a MODEM? It is an A/D, D/A converter."~

Actually a modem is a MODulator/DEModulator hence its name.. MOD-DEM Since pure digital can NOT be modulated or demodulated, there can be no such thing as a digital modem, as most refer to. The name was coined when an AD/DA converter was placed in a standard modem for DSL use. Then the new born Digital Modem became a standard, but incorrect phrase.

Oh well...CW is analog 100% Morse code is 100% digital...very very SLOW digital, but digital non the less.

Enjoy...73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8TCQ on February 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

It's really simple, Digital is on/off or 1 ans 0 respectively

What is CW? on and off

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE7AKS on February 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Ok! One more time ....
Set a radio to a FREQUENGY, Put a switch in the push to talk switch (that is a code key), DO NOT TALK, WHISTLE, or add a DTMF or other TONE, NO MODULATION,
just DEAD CARRIER, that is C W. LONG TIME on with the key, and you are throwing a dead carrier, short time with the key a dot, longer time on the key a dash. Morse code with dead carriers ==== that is CW morse code DIGITAL. ---- You don't hear much until you beat a frequency with those dead carriers to make them have tones in your receiver. EXAMPLE: If I send 3.8500 signal and you mix with it 3.4100 signal, you hear 440 hz difference AN "A" note for as long as I hold down the key. THAT SOUNDS LIKE DIGITAL TO ME !
Now when you turn to 3.8000 and hear MORSE CODE TONES comming at you, they already have a note modulated (MIXED) with the signal that they are sending wnen they hold down the key.

Maybe the reason I didn't hear the morse code was that I had no SIDEBURNS.....

.... .- .-. ...- . -.-- THIS IS MORSE CODE N O T CW,
IT IS D I G I T A L spells Harvey by the combination of digits ---- periods for dots and dash for dashes ....

73 Harv KE7AKS hope this helps... but some one will no doubt say I'm all WRONG.

P.S.
-... -.-- . (digital) not all digital is CW !!! all CW is digital.... not all morse code is digital...

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE7AKS on February 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Correction to the end of my last post "(not all morse code is digital)" that is incorrect! SHOULD READ ___
"NOT ALL MORSE CODE IS CW" ____ SOME MORSE CODE IS SENT AS INTERUPTED TONE, AM, FM, USB, LSB, OR FM USING DTMF even.
SORRY I kinda got the jump on you guys to correct my post...
73 KE7AKS

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W5DXP on February 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

> KE7AKS wrote: .... .- .-. ...- . -.-- THIS IS MORSE CODE N O T CW, <

Yep, and Morse Code appears in the subject line. So Morse Code is a digital mode, maybe the first one, and invented before CW.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4JF on February 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"The whole universe and everything in it is analog. You, me, and the sand on the seashore is analog."

Almost, but not quite. Our vision is digital. We have specific pinpoint sized receptors in the back of the eye which fire when excited. Hearing is analog.

Interestingly, TV was the same until recently - digital video and analog audio (FM to be precise). So "digital TV" is actually TV with the sound made digital also. "High definition" TV is something else, but the popular culture says "digital TV" when they mean "HD TV".

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by SM0AOM on February 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"The whole universe and everything in it is analog. You, me, and the sand on the seashore is analog."

It can be argued about the nature of matter, but
as all "digital" signals can be resolved into Fourier
coefficients of "analog" sine-waves. These in turn have to obey the Heisenberg uncertainity principle which deals with energy quanta,so a Salomonic solution may be to say that everything is both "analog" and "digital".

Regarding the possibility of "slicing off" the sidebands of a QRSS signal and still be able to copy the signals, it is one of the "counter-intutive" properties of signals when viewed in the time domain.

In order to copy the signal, the time window of observation must be very much longer than the duration of the signalling element, as it is the transitions between "no signal" and "signal" that convey the information about the existence of the signalling element. If the time window is too short, transitions can be missed, and the information content destroyed.

Looking at the limiting case when the length of the signalling element approaches infinity, the time window
will have to extend further than infinity, which is impossible.

The reasoning behind the QRSS example also has a flaw as described, as it actually presumes some prior knowledge of the characteristics of the keyed waveform. This is the same as reducing the amount of sideband energy necessary to deduce the information content, which in turn is equivalent to reducing the bandwidth.

A limiting case here is that all the information in the message is known in beforehand, which makes any information transfer unnecessary.

In this case it is not necessary to transmit or receive any sidebands.

73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I still think people are confusing CW with Morse Code.
CW is NOT Morse code. CW is a continoius wave carrier and is analog by nature. Morse code is the way to turn CW on/OFF (0's/1's). Funny, I was doing some research on LASER's and found these defs:

Continuous Wave (CW) Constant, steady-state delivery of laser power. This would also apply to your transmitter and its RF energy.

CO2 Laser A widely used laser in which the primary lasing medium is carbon dioxide gas. The output wavelength is 10.6 µm (10600 nm) in the far infrared spectrum. It can be operated in either CW or pulsed.
This one says it can be on constant (CW), or pulsed(such as morse code)

Found interesting stuff on LASER's!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N3OX on February 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"The reasoning behind the QRSS example also has a flaw as described, as it actually presumes some prior knowledge of the characteristics of the keyed waveform. This is the same as reducing the amount of sideband energy necessary to deduce the information content, which in turn is equivalent to reducing the bandwidth."

Good point...

Dan

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Code in it's AUDIO state is analog, it must be anaolg for us to hear it. CW RF is also analog.

If code is in its digital state, thousands of senders would be able to do it simultainously at millions of words per minute. It would require a CPU and computer program to do it, and it would have to be changed to analog audio sound waves for us to hear it. We cannot ""hear"" code in its digital state, it would be garbled (over a MODEM) if audible at all.

A lot of things can be converted to digital, but was is it when it is usable in its final analisis? If you feel that dits and dah's are the same as binary digital code, you'd actually have to deal with ONLY dits, not dits and dahs. Since code must be dits and dahs as well as spaces, it is a computer program or computer language that takes combinations of binary bits and makes them into computer codes or bytes that have assigned purposes. Purely digital would be only dits and spaces in some combinations, just as ASCII, pix, and most anything else you use your confuser for. If you feel all your computer programming is digital, I guess you could say that code is digital too, when it is a computer program and used through a computer micro processor, i.e. a dit would be the same as a bit. But code as we know it, like ASCII, is a combination of bits that become bytes. ASCII code are bytes, morse code are bytes, pictures are bytes, etc. i.e. combinations of bytes are computer programs to be anything that is intelligible. But bytes have to be converted into sound waves for us to use it as code in our ears. So if code is in its digital state, it is not sensable until converted into its audible analog or visual state. Code can be BOTH DIGITAL AND ANALOG, but keep in mind that code would be bytes not quite the same as merely bits (dahs are bytes). I suppose that you'd have to convert morse code to ASCII bytes on a confuser to use it with most code software since it is not included as part of 8 bit ACSII. Then it would have to be converted for display for us to see it. (I used ""morse code"" to make it clear that I am not talking about confuser code/programming language, I know that ham radio code is not the same as ""morse"" code).

???
Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Arguably, even a computer BIT is analog since it would be an electrical pulse that is a voltage, and current through a resistance at some predetermined time for it to be passed through a circuit, i.e. without Ohm's law we could not have what we call digital. A bit is not really one pulse, either 0 or 1, a bit must have a duration, which would make it analog. How long is a ""1""? Even if it lasted a few trillion-trillionth's of a second, a ""1"" is actually the movement of many electrons! But when you have to combine many bits to make bytes and computer code, you are dealing with computer programming. Electronic flow is analog, and without it we don't have ""digital"" as we call it, i.e. bits and bytes.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KM5WV on February 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Replying to K4UUG comment, CW is Obsolete?? In the US, government requirements have disappeared. There are other governments that still require a certain degree of CW knowledge and use outside the Ham Radio world. At least one country (Bolivia) requires all pilots flying over their air space to be licensed and use CW for certain communications, and, this includes commercial airlines in certain traffic areas. So first, CW is not yet obsolete!

Back to forum question:

I disagree however that CW by current "Technology" definition is a "Digital Mode". On the other hand, receint definitions of "Technology" is also related to software.

Bottom line, "Digital", before computers came around was defined as "done with the fingers" CW qualifies under this definition. It was here before our current computer technology was around. Additionally, the word "Technology" was around in the 1800's. The earliest I have found was in a Russian dictionary (Òåõíè÷åñêèé) was defined as the continuing process development of a product where the requirement continually changes before the project is completed. For the software marketers, this is is an understatement.

dig·i·tal (dj-tl)
adj.

2. Operated or done with the fingers.
4. Expressed in numerical form, especially for use by a computer.

Just because we have added new lines in the dictionary doesn't mean the old definitions have disappeared or are obsolete.

73's
KM5WV

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by W4LGH on February 11, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Everything that is transmitted, thru wires, the atmosphere, or even fiberoptic, is conveyed as analog.
Digital is a method of encoding the "intelligence"(the message being sent) on the analog signal. You can NOT transfer a pure digital singal without an analog carrier.

CW is NOT Morse Code, and Morse Code is NOT CW. MOrse Code is transfered via CW, and analog carrier. Morse code is a very simple digital algorythum , a method of encoding the message to be transmitted via CW a constant wave (RF) that is turned on/off forming digital intelligence. It is VERY SLOW DIGITAL, hence humans can decode it. Of course the human needs to know and understand the algorythum (know morse code) to translate it.

Digital information is more immune to QSB, QRM, QRN and other types of noise, because it has only 2 states, on/off, and not a varying sine wave.

This make Morse Code a DIGITAL Signal, and it has been Digital from the very begining and when sent over telegraph wires in the begining, the CW was the DC current that was turned on/off.

CW is ANALOG CARRIER!
Morse Code is DIGITAL ENCODING!

~"Samual Morse...
The Father of Digital Communications"~

73 de W4LGH - ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by K4JF on February 12, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Back to the title of this thread: the answer is:

Yes.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KE5FRF on February 12, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I did not bother to read all the replies in this thread, so my apologies if what I say has been said before.

Yes, Morse Code most certainly IS digital. the word digital has absolutely ZERO to do with computers, and predates computers as we know them today. A good example of non computer digital circuits is in ladder logic. Years gone by, and even today, mechanical proccesses were controlled by various relays and switches. An assembly line might have several stop switches and limits on a conveyor, and when any combination of those switches occured, some mechanical action would take place. This is classic logic gating with various AND.OR,NOR,XOR etc combinations. Perhaps a circuit is set up that when limit switch A AND limit switch B are actuated, then a NC (normally closed) relay coil is energized, opening the circuit to the conveyor motor and shutting down the conveyor. This is one classic example of an AND gate. In this scenario, two switches in series, both having two logic states (on/off), both perform a logic function. THIS IS DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY in one of its simplest forms. yet digital does NOT require only two states. A digital system could be designed to operate at three states, full on, full off, and some itermediate voltage. As long as those three levels indicate some LOGIC, they would be considered a digital system.

Conversely, analog systems are fluid (variable) and usually proportional changes in a voltage or current that represent or reproduce a nonstatic system. We see analog technology in the many transducers that we still use in electronics even today. There will be no replacement (that I can imagine) for stereo speakers, as an example. As the human voice is a fluctuating system, the most effective way to reproduce it for our ears to make sense of is with an analog speaker. as variable alternating currents in the audio frequency range are applied to the coil of the speaker, it drives the cone proportionally. temperature and pressure sensors are more examples of analog transducers, as they produces varying voltage or current levels that linearly follow changes in the measure variable.

So, as we can see, Morse code definately does not fit with the analog definition. An analog system can be dissected to have infinite degrees or levels within a fixed range. Since Morse code has a limited recognized number of states (on, off, and a few time domain states), it falls squarely in the digital camp.

However, as a CW op, I must confess that CW is MORE. It has a musical quality to it, which crosses over into the realm of analog. In practical terms, manually sent Morse with a bug or a straight key is not perfect and precise states, evenly measured and spaced. It is those subtle differences that each op has that makes Morse Code special. As a language, Morse code is as beautiful as sign language in its own way.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KC8QFP on February 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Alan said it above in a nutshell.

"Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS"
Is "CW" a Digital Mode?
Is ""(Morse Code)"" a Digital Mode?
These are two different things posted in this query, so the YES ""IT"" IS, could be changed to IMO, YES THEY ARE, or YES CODE IS or perhaps remove the "CW".

Let's try an anology...
A basic circuit: a battery, wire, light, and toggle switch connected in series. Turn ON the switch, the current flows via wire, the light radiates and thus would be a ""CW"" signal. Next replace the toggle switch with a code key - ala a coded CW signal, badda-bing-badda-boom! Now replace the switch with a reostat to make the signal variable - ala a modulated signal. The signal is analog. Would you call its switch (or key operator) ""digital"" because it encodes the signal?

Another analogy...
An old fasioned typewriter: You tap a key, and you type a character onto paper via a mechanical process. ONE KEYSTROKE = A CHARACTER! Would you argue that this mechanical process is a digital mode? Perhaps so since the typist could be "digital".

Another analogy...
A drumkit: the snare drum is a dit, and a cymbal is a dah. Would this signal produced via sound waves be digital? I suppose the drummer would be digital, but the drums are analog.

We can have a lot of fun with this, but my point is that the signal MODE that we see or hear is in the analog state for us to use it, i.e. oscillated light or oscillated sound AKA CPS or freq. in Hertzezezezez! So the CW and the CODE are both analog, but the operator is digital if you consider our brains as digital. But I also feel that this is not an either/or query, i.e. either analog or digital. Either/or, both, neither, and separate issues to consider - take your pick!

IMO - In my opinion by Don

PS: Our bodies are analog mechanical devices operated by a digital super computer brain!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode? YES IT IS

by KC8QFP on February 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KE5FRF used a mechanical system as an example of digital. But there were analog robotics that used a determined step-by-step proceedure to process functions. Heck, I had a toy car as a kid, when it bumped into a wall, it changed directions and went on its way, and if it came to the edge of a table, it also changed direction and would not fall to the floor. This was purely mechanical - NO CPU, no bits or bytes (programming), and NO SWITCHES OR RELAYS. My grandson has a Robosapian toy. It is RC, it has a microprocessor, it does all kinds of nifty things as if it has a mind all its own. But it has motors and plastic joints that makes it move about. So I suppose that it would be both analog and digital. Its digital MODE would be on its circuit boards. Its analog robot modes would be the mechanical man, its motors and such that the board controls. Even the factory line that KE5FRF used as an example was programmed by human minds. I kind of think of digital as mind over matter so to speak. And materials are analog in nature. Perhaps we need to DEFINE analog and digital, but how can you define infinity?

Dazed and confused - Don

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

You know what people, we are simply playing around with words on here, many of them being oxy-morons.

Such as "define infinity"?
define - definite, know finality
infinity - infinite, NO finality

What the heck is digital? Ask one hundred people, and get one hundred different answers. To some that would be like asking, "what is god"? Ham radio can be soooo much like religion, full of ideas and opinions, i.e. full of BS and judgemental know-it-alls (we're right and you're wrong)! The taboo shoulds and shouldn'ts, the holy scriptures that govern the ARS (would that be FCC R&R's or ARRL doctrine)? We are not supposed to talk about religion, politics and sex - so we get into stuff like CW and code and CB and rigs and antennaes, and towers and linnikers, and contests and DX and proceedure and lids and and and and and the weather. btw, it's cold out there and snowing as I digital here.

My idea (opinion) of digital MODE would be microprocessor and programming. So when code is in a digital MODE, it most likely would be in a digital state as in a computer or ""electronic brain"". "YES IT IS" (see subject line) would be too broad a statement for my religion. Just remember that, "my dog is better than your dog..." because...!

Don = full of BS like the rest of us
(I'm a poet and I know-it)!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by N6AF on February 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I've been trying to copy 256 QAM in my head for the longest time but I just can't seem to do it. Any suggestions? It doesn't even help when the C/N ratio is high. What's wrong with me?

73 N6AF Chas

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

This says it all, and for those who can figure it out, it should end this discussion:

111011100111011101110010111010010101001000101001010100011101010010100111011101001010011100

101110010111010100010111010111010111

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 14, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

~"I've been trying to copy 256 QAM in my head for the longest time but I just can't seem to do it. Any suggestions? It doesn't even help when the C/N ratio is high. What's wrong with me? 73 N6AF Chas"~

Try slowing it down to morse code speed, and you need to learn the algorythum 100%, then you can copy it in your head without any problems!

Digital can be mechanical. There have been many digital computers that derived its processing from mechanical on/off states. CPU's can be mechanical too!

CW is ANALOG CARRIER!
Morse Code is DIGITAL ENCODING!

~"Samual Morse...
The Father of Digital Communications"~

73 de W4LGH - ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K4JF on February 14, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"CW is ANALOG CARRIER! "

Nope. A carrier, in and of itself, cannot be analog. Since it is carrying no data and is not being modified to carry data, it is neither digital nor analog. It just is.

Vary its frequency, amplitude or phase, in a continuously varying manner and you have an analog signal. Convey information by switching between two or more specific states, and you have digital, whether is it morse code or any other encoding.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K4JF: >Nope. A carrier, in and of itself, cannot be analog. Since it is carrying no data and is not being modified to carry data, it is neither digital nor analog. It just is.<

I think I am...
Therefore I am...
I Think?

Sounds like something Bill Clinton would understand, "define is"!

Are all the lights in my house "digital", they can be turned on and off and are either in the on or off state. Let's see: 117VAC, 14ga wire, 60Hz, 60w balbs, switches, is this a digital circuit? Is this analog? Is it "just is"? Howz about the lights that are X-10 remote controlled?

CW carriers, let's see, some are on 80m, some 60m, some 40m, some 30m, some 20m, etc. and then you can tune them to a variable freq on each band with the VFO, last I knew - few are rock bound on a set freq. Yeppirs it is a CW at a set freq, but the freq can be easily changed by a switch and twist of a knob. My house lights are also at a set freq (60hz), seems like CW too. Put a CW code key in place of the light switch, and you can bleep bleep bleep all day. Is that digital?

There was an example of using relays, switch stops, and a motorized system in a factory assembly line, is that really "digital"? What about a hydraulic circuit such is a turbo-hydromatic transmission, it is automated, it uses valves (the first computers had tubes, aka valves), pumps, and such in a circuit. Does that mean a Trubo-400 is digital? It uses a step by step predetermined HYDRAULIC process to do its job. What if a car transmission has some kind of computerized control, as they recently are?

As I said, there are ANALOG ROBOTS and even what are considered as ANALOG computers. An old mechanical adding machine or cash register are examples of what are considered as analog computers (usually gear driven).

Any thing can be ""digital"" if you define it as switching a circuit on and off. Would an old typewriter be digital? You touch a key with your digit finger, and you got a printed character on your paper. Digital can be a very broad catagory, but I think in ham radio, "digital mode" would be narrowed down to using computers, in that it is implicit of CPU and programming. So if code is in the digital state, it is considered as a computer program. CW is simply considered as an RF carrier to us hams. But a lamp is also "CW". Heck, put a 150w light balb onto the transmitter antenna jack of your HF rig, and watch the CW light up when you transmit (aka an old fasioned dummy load). When we hams talk digital, we assume computers - goes without explanation. When hams talk "CW", we associate that with code.

I guess we can argue anything is either digital or analog. That's opinions rather than definitions and playing with words rather than our reality. Makes me think of the tower of Babbal!

I guess you could say that code is BOTH digital and analog, but my point is >>> that depends on which state is it in, i.e. that it boils down to ham radio jargon. Trying to say it is NEITHER by saying "it just is" is pretty freaky. Everything "just is", dare we argue a Creator vs evolution here? We love to mince words - ham radio op's are great BSer's.

Cheerz, Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KC8QFP asked...***Are all the lights in my house "digital", they can be turned on and off and are either in the on or off state. Let's see: 117VAC, 14ga wire, 60Hz, 60w balbs, switches, is this a digital circuit? Is this analog? Is it "just is"? Howz about the lights that are X-10 remote controlled? ***

Yes, your lights would be considered digital if you cared to converse with your family by turning them on and off. As long as you are adding LOGIC to the act of turning your lights on and off, it becomes a DIGITAL language. But to simply have them in an off or on state with no intelligence added, they remain just "lights"...If you have a dimmer switch, and turn the lights up and down at variuous stages of brightness, in a manner that represents someTHING, then it would be analog. For instance, if you figured out a way to wire your lights to "modulate" with the sound of your voice, this would be an analog system.

But again, if the lights are simply on or off, with no value added, they are neither analog nor digital..They just "are". Both analog and digital systems add some kind of intelligence, data, logic, or functionallity that is dependant on changes in state. It is the DIFFERENCE in how this is done that defines either digital or analog.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

CW is ANALOG CARRIER! A Carrier is ANALOG, as it is a pure sine wave, CW is pure analog!
Morse Code is DIGITAL ENCODING! MC is a simple method of digital encoding, it has an algorythum and is a series of on/off's. These on/off's will form a square wave, or possibly a sawtooth wave, but not a sine wave.

The lights in your house are analog, the AC, very much like RF is making a pure sine wave. Now if you want to hook your key to your lights and send morse code, ok, you have now encoded the analog AC signal with a simple method of digital encoding.

~"Samual Morse...
The Father of Digital Communications"~

73 de W4LGH - ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

And furthermore, more word games...

We are playing around with the meanings of words. If we all have our own definitions of words, there would be mass confusion and arguments (as on the internet everyday). Do WE hams agree what CW is? What analog is? What digital is? The adjectives describe something (nouns) that are relevant to us hams. What is CB? What is considered as good? As a lid? Ask ten hams and get ten different answers???

Let's try something like a word we all pretty much know its meaning. ""BLIND"" Is blind digital or analog? (just kidding)! There are many types of blindness. Some are totally blind, and some are legally blind, and some are color blind, and some are snow blinded (we had a foot of it this week, burrrrrr) and so on. Turn off all the lights, and we ALL are blind! Blind people are considered as handicapped (a broad term). So I guess it depends on how you ""look"" at it (purception). I guess that the "art" of ham radio is subject to one's interpretation and individual personal opinion, but we need some kind of understanding that we can agree on in order to communicate with each others as hams.

We all pretty much know what CW is (at least we should, it is defined in the FCC R&R's). And we all should know what code is, code is a very broad word, and can mean a hundred different things to a hundred people - but to us hams it is the dits and dahs. Digital and analog are also very broad catagories, but how are they relevant to radio and code as queried in this SIG? Do some here believe that >>>>>>>""ALL""<<<<<<< code is digital? I feel that some code is digital. And some is analog. My point is that >>> this is not an all or nothing querie, it is not an either/or senario, it is actually asking specifically if CW (adjective) code (dits and dahs), i.e. a specific type of code that is transmitted via RF carrier, is this considered as digital by us hams? No computers mentioned or implied there! Is old fasioned CW type ""morse"" code digital? I guess it depends what "is digital" to us hams in ham radio jargon folks. You guess is as good as mine, but there is an understanding amongst us of this group that use either a key, keyer, or computer generated code. Regardless as to how it is generated, when it is in the CW state being sent via RF, it would be analog, simular to turning a light switch on and off, the light signal is in an analog state. Oh oh, here it comes, switching an LED on and off in a computerised circuit??? This was about CW code, not LED's! Get my point?

What am I? I bet I get all kinds of opinions? God only knows! Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

***The lights in your house are analog, the AC, very much like RF is making a pure sine wave. Now if you want to hook your key to your lights and send morse code, ok, you have now encoded the analog AC signal with a simple method of digital encoding. ****

You guys, I think you are thinking too hard. No, the carrier IS NOT analog. It is a carrier. An unmodulated carrier is like a blank piece of paper. It is not changing, more or less STATIC. Well, I guess if you want to really split hairs, any alternating current is not static by a loose definition...but, an umodulated carrier is truly neither analog nor digital because there is no INTELLIGENCE. No value is added to the carrier in its simplest form. It only becomes analog or digital when intelligence is added to it. If the nature of that intelligence is VOICE, as represented by shifting frequency through a range as with FM or through varying amplitude as AM, and it is by design LINEARLY REPRODUCING that audio signal, then it is analog. If the intelligence is conveyed by switching between a limited number of states, usually two, then it is considered digital.

Wow, it is amazing that something so simple can be made so erroneous and complicated!

Think of a blank sheet of paper. Think of the paper as the carrier. This paper is neither analog nor digital because it has no information and performs no logic. It just EXISTS. Now, sketch a likeness of your mother on that picture. Hopefully you are a good artist. Hopefully you will do your best to reproduce a likeness of your mother that is "linearly" close to what she really looks like, following the pattern of her face. Use various amounts of shading by turning your pencil sideays and "blend" the pencil lead on the paper. This would be much like an analog signal. There is information about your mother in that picture, and someone looking at it will have an idea what she looks like. OK, now, take a pencil, and another blank sheet of paper. Draw a picture of your mother, only this time, use the pencil point to make "pixels"...in the shaded areas, crowd more pixels to denote dark spots, and in lighter areas, make the pixels more sparce. Draw the lines in her face with a string of pixels, but be sure to lift your pencil each time you place a new dot. This picture approzimates what your mother looks like. the finer your lead, and the more skilled you are at placing each pixel, the better the "resolution" will be.

This is exactly how digital and analog works. The pencil is neither digital nor analog, the paper is neither digital or analog. It is our METHOD of adding intelligence that defines it.
IS this CLEAR for everyone? Defining digital and analog is very simple. It isn't a matter of opinion at all. It is a matter of fact, just like the sky is blue or the sun is hot.

I fail to understand how this is so confusing.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

OK...according to Webster.......

ANALOG: of a circuit or device having an output that is proportional to the input; "analogue device"; "linear amplifier".

DIGITAL: A description of data which is stored or transmitted as a sequence of discrete symbols from a finite set, most commonly this means binary data represented using electronic or electromagnetic signals. The opposite is analogue.

Continuous wave (CW): the first method of radio transmission, consists of an unmodulated carrier wave; unlike modulated modes, it has no information (in the communications sense) embedded within the signal. It was called radiotelegraphy because like the telegraph, it worked by simple on/off means to transmit Morse code. In common modern usage, CW and Morse code are almost synonymous, despite the real distinction between the two (Morse code may be sent using sound and light, for example).

Morse code: A coding system invented by Samuel A. Morse, for use in sending character data over extremely low-quality pathways -- such as telegraphs and low-quality radio. Morse code expresses characters as pulses of different durations. Short signals are called "dots" and long signals are calles "dashes". The coding assigns shorter sequences to the most frequently used characters. "A two-condition" telegraph code in which characters are represented by groups of dots and dashes.

OK...now let's all play by the same rules. Above are WEBSTERS deffinations of: Analog, DIGITAL, CW, and MORSE CODE.

Not going to get into it all over again, but using the info above one can clearly see that CW is confused with Morse Code , and CW is an ANALOG signal when produced by an RF transmitter as it is linear.
Morse code is 2 states (on/off) and has a finite number of characters, it is a method of encoding.

So I stand by what I have been saying all along.

CW is ANALOG and is NOT Morse Code!
Morse Code is DIGITAL, and is NOT CW!

Sam Morse..The Father of Digital Communication!

One other interesting note, the dictionary said the the word DIGITAL was used in the english language back before the 1870's. Hmmmm...maybe old Sam knew what he was doing??

73 de W4LGH Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

***Not going to get into it all over again, but using the info above one can clearly see that CW is confused with Morse Code , and CW is an ANALOG signal when produced by an RF transmitter as it is linear.
Morse code is 2 states (on/off) and has a finite number of characters, it is a method of encoding. ***

I'm not at all arguing with you Alan, because you certainly have the Morse Code is digital part correct.

But I would be interested in hearing how you would describe a continuous carrier as having linearity? Linearity in reference to what? What linear curve does a single frequency bandwidth carrier follow?

I won't debate that a RADIO uses analogue technology to CREATE such a waveform, because the amplifier and oscillator stages uses linear circuitry to create the carrier...but the means do not define the product. I can use an analog device to build a computer, which is a digital device...but just because the computer was built with an analog device, this does not make it analog.

Now, if you say that AC is somewhat analog, I guess I can buy that. But just because something changes states or oscillates doesn't mean it is analog. Now, if it is being DRIVEN to change states/oscillate as a representation of something else that is changing states, I guess it might fit, but that is really stretching the definition a bit. An amplifier might be called analog because it reproduces an input in another form that is linear...but the input has a value and the proportionality by which it is amplifed is well defined and understood. The output is representative of the input, so we are conveying an intelligence from one state to the other. Even this is a very loose definition of analogue, and I would question it. Anyhow, I would be interested to know how you define a CW waveform that isn't being modulated by on off keying a LINEAR analogue signal. Seems like a flatline to me...Well, I guess a flat line could be analog. I dunno.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

//////////////
Neither analog nor digital

///__/__///__/______///__///__/__///
(CQ) Digital

-------*----*--------*------------**-------*
------**----**------***----------****-----***
--*--****--****--*-*****-------**************----*-
-**--********************----****************--**
**************************-*********************
(Meaningless representation of a voice modulated waveform)
ANALOG

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Ok...I see where you are going with this. I guess if you want to take it to the truest level, the product (carrier), I define as analogue as it is produced with analogue devices, and these devices produce a perfect linear sine wave. Since at this stage of development, we only have analogue and digital. Since the carrier is producing a sine wave, which digital can not do, the carrier would have to fall under the analogue category as it is clearly NOT digital. Not sure I am typing what is going thru my head, but hopefully you can see where I am coming from. A sine wave is linear, as it's peaks above 0 are identical to the peaks below 0 (0 being the base line).

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I guess if you REALLY want to spli hairs, Alan, I can kind of agree with that...but my understanding of analog and linearity is that the linearity REPRESENTS something...something measurable and that has values and that has highs and lows and everything inbetween. While a free running oscillator producing an RF frequency certainly has his and lows, those hi's and lows are alternating in precise 180 degree angles to one another in a perfect timed relationship. They are meaningless, 100% predictable, and convey no information of any value. But you could also say an AC waveform has two states...increasing voltage or decreasing voltage, up or down, his and lows. So which analysis REALLY fits the bill? And what of an oscillating square wave? A square wave in an oscillation is only different from a sine wave in that it isn't trigonometric in its shape. But it occurs as an alternating frequency. Is AC analogue because it's peaks are rounded off? Is that all that it takes to make it analog?

In the very LOOSEST way, I can accept that an AC sinewave is analog, but I think where we go awry is in thinking that everything has to be categorized one or the other. i.e....OK, its not digital, so it must be analog, or its not analog, so it must be digital. Someone in this thread said that everything is analog. No, I don't believe that is true. Is a TREE analog? No, a tree is a tree. Trees do not represent anything. they just are. They exist. Analog systems are systems that produce an aproximation (usually linear) of something else. An amplifier takes a small signal and makes it bigger. It changes it but it remains an approximation of the thing it amplifies. An amplifier is analog. A wattmeter with a coil movement reacts magnetically to slight variations in current through the coil. It produces an approximation of the power output against a meter display that is marked with gradients. This is an analog device. In both cases, the end product resembles the variable that is being measured or reproduced. In one case, it is changed to be a bigger value, and in the other case it is changed to be a visable value. But in both cases a linear translation is occuring. And in both cases, the analog aspect has some kind of usefulness.

So, maybe this is just my opinion, but I'd like to think I am correct...CW carriers are just basically unmoulded clay, sitting there ready to be moulded into something useful. I won't try to design an analogy for how clay would be digitalized, but I think you can see what I mean.

Thanks for the discussion.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

One more thing. Computer microproccesors operate at high speeds because they are clocked by an oscillator. The fastest chips run at speeds in the GIGAhertz range. This defines the bit sampling rate as the CPU reads the data. Is a computer CPU an analog device because it operates at RF frequencies?

I think the most important thing here is to realize that a lot of this is nitpicking and useless in reality. The original poster asked..."Is Morse Code (CW) digital or analog?". Many of the reponses in this thread seemed to indicate that some think that only computers define digital. This is sadly erroneoud thinking. Some would think that none of our digital modes are actually digital because they are conveyed via RF carrier. This is also sadly erroneous logic. I think there is an almost distaste for the word digital in the ham community, for whatever reason. It is a shame, too, because at one time hams led the way in technology. Now we are becoming scared of the technology our community helped create! To the extent that we are denying the venerable contributions that the most early digital pioneers made! Why is this? I have some answers in my mind, but they will surely cause me to get flamed, so I'll keep them to myself.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I wanted to add one more thing to what I've said. I thought about it a while, and I think I made an error in saying that a CW carrier is somehow less than truly analog. I think I still have a valid point, but I was oversimplifying. Here is my "improved" reasoning. AC is very much a simple analog system because it approximates a mechanical movement. A gas generator spins a magnet inside a coil at 60 cycles a second, and the voltage is induced into the coil. This voltage is a linear approximation of the mechanical movement. Similarly, radio frequency AC is (sometimes) an electronic reproduction of the mechanical vibration of a crystal when DC is applied to it. So, indeed, an RF carrier CAN be considered analog. So, again in a loose sense, a continuous carrier might be considered analog. I apologize for my err in reasoning.

However, I still think it is important to MOVE AWAY from that trivial consideration. I also got to thinking about what CW is. When we define CW as a modulation scheme or a mode, an important definition invariably includes "on/off keying". So, while a continuous carrier is surely simple analog, it is useless to us until we modulate it. CW DOES NOT require Morse Code to be the modulation language. I could come up with my own code, call it "KE5FRF code", and modulate a continuous wave with it. But in order for me to modulate it, I need an on/off keying empliment...a "key" or keyer. The language is no longer important...it is the two state modulation that makes EVEN CW when considered as a MODE PURELY DIGITAL. Sure, the radio frequency carrier is analog, but so is the radio frequency carrier for RTTY, PSK-31, Packet radio, and Pactor. Those are all digital modes, and they are defined by their method of keying. CW is defined as a mode involving the on/off keying of a carrier. The ON/OFF part is what is IMPORTANT when defining what CW is. Morse Code is the language we use to add the intelligence, but any language could be invented to do the same.

One last thought. To define CW and Morse Code by the analog carrier is much like defining the book "War and Peace" by the paper it is written on. We propogate erroneous logic when we analyze the book by the type of pulp that was used to print it.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"unmodulated carrier is like a blank piece of paper. It is not changing, more or less STATIC."

A "blank" piece of paper would be some color emitting a frequency. White is a freq, red is another freq. and so on. A carrier is some freq. whenther it is a light at 60hz or RF at some MHz. Hmm, interesting point that computer microprocessors operate at some freq xtal controlled. Does a freq. have to be AC? DC? Digital (square wave or pulsations)? Now we are getting into linear - good show Alan! A tree grows in time, could its freq be like a foot per year? I will stick to my guns - code and CW are actually BOTH! But in ham radio jargon, i.e. how most hams see it, digital implies using a confuser. I kind of relate to ohm's law when it comes to analog. This discussion kind of reminds me of compairring things that are radiant, conductive, and convective. A heater can be all three. I know that CW and code can be both A & D. But usually most hams assume CW is analog, and code is digital when done with a confuser. Mincing words can be a riot, now let's get into the roots and origination (etymology) of these words so we can come to an edict on linear, analog, digital, CW and code. Does anyone have the FCC rule book (mine is old and buried somewhere). How would the FCC god call this one, they are the athority!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

<<But usually most hams assume CW is analog, and code is digital when done with a confuser. Mincing words can be a riot, >>

I doubt that "most hams" would assume CW (as defined as a modulation scheme/mode utilizing on/off keying) is analog. And I think you are the one who is turning the discussion into an act of mincing words.

OK, lets bring this down into the simplest of simple terms. When discussing what CW is, we know that C stands for continuous and W stands for wave. Continuous Wave. We also recognize that ITU mode A1A is a MODULATION scheme. To modulate something you must manipulate it to add meaningful intelligence. The way thus is done with a CW carrier is on/off keying. Thus, when discussing CW as a mode, it is inseperable from the fact that it is keyed on/off from one state to another. When we talk about ANALOG SIGNALING, we talk about a communications technique that is VARIABLE. (continuous does not equal variable) I can concede that a continuous AC waveform is a simple form of analog, as I described earlier, because it is usually formed by converting a mechanical energy into an electrical energy that follows the mechanical energy's linear pattern.

However, we are trying to establish if continuos wave modulation(CW) is analog or digital. Remembering that on/off keying is the only established way to add intelligence to a continuos carrier, we must conclude that CW, the MODE, is digital.

Is a continuos waveform digital? No, it is analog. Radio waves for all modes are analog. But we don't care about what radio is. We all know what radio is. We are talking about how we USE radio.

Another way to consider this. Phone modes have three aspects to consider....The language in which we speak, the method of modulating that language, and the nature of the transmission. The nature of the transmission with ham radio is RADIO Frequency. We know that is analog. The method of modulation we might discuss could be Single Sideband supressed carrier amplitude modulation. The language in which we speak to be modulated might be English.

language: English, an analog language
modulation type (mode):SSBSCAM (analog)
nature of transmission:RADIO, RF (analog)

now, lets look at CW in the same terms.
language: Morse, a digital language, the PREFERED language because of its universality
modulatuion type (mode):CW modulation (digital, always involves on/off keying of a carrier)
nature of transmission:Radio, RF (analog)

As you can see, Morse is NOT the mode. It is the language. Morse is a language specifically designed for digital applications. CW, the on off keying of a continuous carrier, is the perfect fit because it is a digital modulation scheme. Any other language could be designed INCLUDING ASCII BINARY, but since Morse is established, and since it utilizes the most efficient character scheme, it is the defacto standard.

In all radio transmissions, the carrier is analog. But radio having a carrier does not have anything to do with the method of modulation. If I layed a paperweight on my straight key and let the booger transmit until my finals fried, YES, I would be putting an analog waveform into the ether. But CW is a designation for a modulation scheme, not another word for RF or carrier. We already have words for RF carrier. They are RF and carrier. We don't need another word. Continuos wave is misleading because it makes you think of an unmodulated RF carrier. But it isn't. CW is a modulation scheme. CW means on off keying of a carrier. It isn't an unmodulated carrier. It is a modulated carrier. Modulated by on/off keying.

How many more times can I say this? It is all established. The ITU, FCC, and the world of science all have it figured out and well defined for us. Sitting around smoking a joint and "philosophizing" doesn't change established and known facts.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

A piece of paper emitting reflected light freqs does not actually generate the freq. The source of light may be composed of a large freq range, but the piece of paper would be more like an antenna or filter in that it reacts to a certain channel of freqs. So what ""is"" a piece of paper? If you draw on it with lines or dots, even that is a reflection of some light freq range. CW must have some freq that it is operating as. What is a frequency? An oscillation? Specific vibrations? CPS? AC? DC waves? Pulsating bits? The way you seem to describe CW would make it like straight DC. For it to have a line, there would have to be a voltage and current flow through a circuit - else it would be zero, no line (on a scope). CW = continuous WAVE, RF waves, what is a wave? Stagnant water does not move, it has no wave, that would be NW instead of CW. The waves per minute are what you see at the beach of the ocean, that is more akin to CW! No waves means zero movement, in order to generate and radiate as CW (move code via RF) you must produce waves at some freq.

A computer's "digital" CPU microchip is composed of what inside? Millions of transistors? Millions of electronic switches? Thus it opens and closes circuits. Does this make the CPU analog?

A tree's growth is linear, at a rate of so many inches per year. A tree somehow converts dirt into "a tree" by a process using capillary action and photosynthesis. But since its growth is do to splitting cells, one by one, could it be digital too.

I am not trying to make you guys out as wrong, I can see both sides, and feel it is BOTH in a way. As for most hams, when code is sound or blinking lights, this is not usually thought of as digital since digital is associated with computers. Are you saying that something that has been encoded using dits and dahs makes it digital? I'm saying that it can be considered as both analog and digital, so whats the buzz about that? What is SOUND? What is light? I guess you can say they are capable of being both analog and digital. But now it seems that turning something on and off makes it ""digital"" if I get your drift???

Go figure??? I'm trying! Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Now you are saying that CW is a modulated carrier, and this is so. A modulated carrier would be a simple CW - modulated signal, perhaps a sine wave at let's say 7.1MHz. No AM, SSB, FM, or even some DIGITAL MODEM signal attached to the modulated CW freq. It is kind of misleading to say continuous "wave", waves would be more accurate. But we hams use WAVE as a measurment of freq, aka a wave length. A wave length at 7.1MHz would be around 40 meters! So the CW at 7.1MHz would be about 40 meters, and this can be (switched, keyed) turned on and off to create a code of some sort. If you add some audio freq signals to ride the wave as a surfer rides the waves, you got your idea of a modulation aka AM mode. You can filter the RF, you can filter the AF AM that rides the CW RF. You can vari the AF freq within the RF, this is FM. Looks to me as though you're confusing AF and RF here. A CW in AF would be like a continuous single note on a keyboard being played. AM and FM at 20-15KHz being played with variable sounds (as in chords on a keygoard) are AF, not RF, modulated signals. So the RF carrier is set at some freq, as in 7.1MHz, and the AF rides the ""CW"" (as in 20-15KHz). Whether you tap a key on an electric piano, or a Navy key, very simular, but one your turn an AF sound on and off, the other a modulated CW RF carrier. You said it yourself that code is a modulated CW carrier! So is that analog and/or digital?

I'm learning (I guess) I'm not an extra!!! ;)
Please explain it to me oh great ham radio guru!
Maybe I will get it sooner or later, but I am still dazed and confused. Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by K7PEH on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

K7LRB, the initiator of this topic, should get some kind of award or recognition for creating such a lively yet discordant discussion.

Every possible interpretion has been described with contributors who seem to hold deeply to their convictions that analog is this, digital is that, and nothing will change their minds.

Given that there is so much difference of opinion, why not revert to the official ITU emissions standards. I speak of A1A which means the following (to those who flunked this part of your test):

A (the first A) -- means double-sideband amplitude modulation.

1 -- means a single channel of digital information with the use of a modulating sub-carrier.

A (the second A) -- Telegraphy for aural (ears) reception.

So, A1A is what most people refer to as CW or Morse Code or whatever using the loosely defined interpretations.

Therefore, as said so many times here on this topic, the loosely referred to CW (Morse Code) is BOTH analog and digital.

Isn't it nice when you can say that the answer is neither one thing or another thing but both things simultaneously. Our politicians learned this a long time ago.

Does this topic stream ever end or does it go onto infinity. Does that make it analog or is it digital?

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

One more analogy from our water waves. If you wanted to make some kind of code using water, you might toss stones in the water at some assigned internals. Let's say one small rock in a minute would mean a dit. Then a huge boulder in a minute would be a dah!
Each minute would be a space. The letter A would be a small rock, a minute, then a huge boulder. You would read the CW by watching the waves generated. The rock and boulder would not make only one wave each, there would be ""harmonics"" or many smaller waves as it dissipates. I guess that throwing rocks in the water is a digital mode!

Now lets put a note in a bottle to ride the wave across the pond. That note in a bottle would be like AF riding the CW RF so to speak. This makes more sense to me than a piece of paper.

UG, ME TOSS ROCK IN WATER - YOU GET MESSAGE - DAT IS DIGITAL CAVE MAN STYLE! "I'll sock it to ya daddy" Don the trogladite code guy

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Dan,

where you go wrong is in thinking that for something to be digital, it has to be associated with computers (or confusers as you say)

The travesty in this thread is that it strays so far off the beaten path into conjecture, when we are talking about science and technology. Two people can look at a painting, and one person can say "that is hideous" and the other can say "that is beautiful". These are subjective opinions because beauty is not a definable thing. It is "in the eyes of the beholder" as they say.

I have read your arguments, and while you are an obviously intelligent man, you are basing your concept of what DIGITAL is vs what ANALOG is on a lot of "romantic" or preconceived (but erroneous) notions. Defining something as digital or analog is very mathematical. Some of the arguments in this thread try to bring emotion into the conversation. The disservice is for anyone who honestly doesn't understand ANYTHING to read this thread, they will be more confused than when they started.

I am a young ham, but I have spent the last ten years of my professional life in the instrumentation and control technology business. My profession involves being an expert in understanding various methods of measuring variables with analog devices and aquiring the data either through analog or digital means. It also involves understanding linear circuits used to make proportional adjustments to out of control variables.

When I am training a new guy, if he were to get into a long and meaningless discussion iof contradiction to established terms and concepts instead of accepting the facts, he would probably not last long in the job. We as hams, technology hobbyists, should strive to accept the engineering definitions of terms rather than inventing our own. It just makes things confusing.

Several posts back Iread where you said CW is analog because the speaker turns it into audio frequency which is analog. Well, no doubt the human interface (teh speaker) turns the digital pulses into sounds, but that is only to make our brains understand it. But that doesn't change what the code and the modulation scheme do. The audio amplifer stages, speaker, and hearing part are AFTER THE FACT. An example...a computer monitor turns the bits and bytes of ASCII into visible light frequencies so that our brains can understand them when we read eHAm. Does this mean therefor that our computers are analog? Does this mean that the packets our computer sends the internet are anlog because the human interface that displays them converts them into analog form? Hell NO. Do you see how your logic goes all over the place but dances around the truth?

Again, it is very simple. CW is on/off keying of a AM carrier. I read a perfect explanation for the misunderstanding several posts up. The FULL term for CW is really INTERRUPTED CONTINUOUS WAVE. Us hams have shortened it to CW, but it is UNDERSTOOD that it is interrupted to add intelligence, which makes it digital. Any further analysis to convince otherwise borders on irrational, and it is really disturbing to see people who should be knowledgeable and Elmering the novices out there posting missinformation.

And furthermore, the term digital predates computers, but if you want to get silly with it, the human mind is very much like a computer when it is copying Morse code. Our minds are attached to our internal biological clock. Have you ever seen a professional golfer make a perfect swing? His brain depends on his biological sense of timing to keep his movements precise and efficient. When we copy Morse code as sent by CW, our brains are able to measure the ratio of dits and dahs, and though unpercievable on a concious level, we know that a dah is THREE BITS long and a dit is ONE BIT long, hince the standard 3:1 ratio. We know our brain can do this because when we send, we do it in reverse order. So, a dah looks like "111" and a dit looks like "1" my call would look like "111010111001001010101010010101110100101110100101011101"

KE5FRF...111010111[k]00[space]1[e]00[space]101010101[5]00[space]101011101[f]00[space]1011101[r]00[space]101011101[f]

Its so simple, its mind boggling. But just because we need an (analog) human interface like a speaker, a computer monitor, or whatever, that doesn't mean that the language and method of conveyance in essence aren't digital. Oh contraire.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I've said it is BOTH! It depends on which state the code is in along the way. Since A1A is talking about code in a state of sound or audio (AF), in that state code is analog. We can zero beat it because it is an analog signal? But it can be considered as digital when it is generated electronically. Code is converted through various states along its way to our ears (or eyes). It seems that many believe that switching something makes is digital, but it can be either or both. That's simple to me.

And I bet MOST ham's associate or relate "digital" to computer modes of operation. If you tell a ham you're working digital mode, they will assume you're using a computer for code, rtty, PSK31, packet, etc., so if you say you're using a keyer, keyboard, or computer to send/receive CW, they consider that all as digital mode of doing code. I stand my ground that IF you tell the other ham that you are using CW mode, using a Navy key or bug connected directly to the back of your rig, that you are indeed code, but "digital mode" is not the adjective that comes to mind. If raw code via a key is specified, in that state it is usually not called digital code. I would not get on the air and say I am working digital code by merely using a key - it sounds like I am an idiot! When I tell the other ham I am doing digital code, he thinks I am using some kind of computer or electronic keyer. I feel that it is safe to say that raw CW is not considered as ""digital code"" by most hams. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and many hams think CW is beautiful.

Then there are the no coders that don't like it. But this was not about the know code vs no code people! I do feel that I ""know code"" is both analog and digital. But I guess that turning my lights on or off would be digital too.

Go figure??? (as my XYL sez, "whatever")! Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

WOW...
This thread has certainly provoked a lot of thought and it certainly has been refreshing to see that there are other technical hams out there! As I had posted earlier, Webster's says the word DIGITAL was first used back in the 1870's. I have not found how it was used, but it would be interesting to see how it was used then.

I also realize that its hard for a lot of people to give in to that fact that their beloved Morse Code is a Digital mode, but things change over time. I have a old ARRL handbook that says frequencies over 30Mhz are totally un-useable and worthless. Well, we ALL know thats totally wrong, as we all have personal communication devices that are operating at almost 2Ghz, and we can communicate with just about anyone in the world at any time. I realize this takes a lot of additional equip. to do this, but they did it!

I certainly don't think Sam Morse woke up one morning and said...damn, I just invented the first digital communications, but what he did do, was as equally important. It opened the doors to instant communications and affected every life on this planet in one way or the other.

People tend to confuse CW with Morse Code as being the same, and I guess over the years its been generally accepted to do so, since Morse code has been the main form of encoding the intelligence onto a CW. However there are 100's of digital encoding schemes that could be used on CW today.

CW is Analogue, Morse code is Digital, extremely SLOW digital, but digital none the less. -.-

Enjoyed it! 73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Alan...

One quick question. I will quit posting in this thread after this because I feel it could go on forever, lol. But one question. You still post "CW is analog"...Let me ask you this...Can you tell me another communications scheme that could be transmitted with CW that is analog? If CW is analog, it seems that we should be able to transmit analog signals with it. It seems that if CW is analog, that we should be able to modulate it with our voice, with music, or with some linear or variable signaling scheme. As far as I know, the only languages that can be used to modulate a continuous wave are digital languages. The only way to add intelligence to a continuous carrier is to key it on and off. It seems to me that CW is limited to digital uses, so it must be a digital mode.

Another thing, can we even consider the fact that CW is transmitted by an AM carrier a reason to call it analog? I'll give an example...We would call FM radio analog when voice or music information is transmitted with it. However, when we send pulsed tones via FM, as packet radio or tone modulated CW, we would say that FM is being used digitally. I could devise a radio scheme where one frequency equals dah or dit, and another frequency equals space intervals. I could send Morse Code via this method, shifting between two frequencies with an FM radio. Would we still consider it analog? I would thik in the case of packet radio or some other digital language scheme, that FM can be either digital or analog depending on the type of mosulating action. The same would go for sideband or pure AM, if a modulating scheme that uses set states to represent a binary code is driving the transmission.

Since CW CAN ONLY be keyed with an on/off device, it seems to me that CW is digital regardless of the language we choose to modulate it with. The only way CW would be analog would be if we could modulate it with our voice or music. But when we modulate it with one of those other methods, it no longer becomes a CONTINUOUS WAVE! The waves change in amplitude, duration, or frequency, so they no longer are continuous! They fall under some other scheme that would be called analog when that happens.

Again, I don't argue that radio waves are analog by nature, but again, I don't think we define Morse Code or CW by the fact that it is radio, because that is a GIVEN. I think we define it by the language and keying method that is used. And since CW is always on/off keyed, and since the language we use is Morse, which is a digital language, then I would insist that CW, the MODE, is digital...and Morse, the language is digital. This would be my argument in a court of law if I was putting it on trial. I guess the rest is unimportant.

Thanks for playing.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Well you pose some interesting questions, but CW is a analog carrier, it is NOT AM or FM or Digital. AM/FM or Digital is way to encode intelligence onto the carrier so it can be demodulated back into a useful message.

CW is just a carrier, if you modulate it with FM ,then you frequency shift the center of the carrier, AM you change the amplitude to encode it. Digital can be done several ways, either as on/offs of the carrier, or FSK (frequency shift keying) which would be FM modulation. I guess for AM you could use AFSK (audio frequency shift keying) all of these can be applied to a CW carrier. Again I still think people are confusing CW as a mode, and not a method.

CW is a method.
AM is a Mode.
FM is a Mode.
Digital is a Mode.
Morse Code is a Mode.
All of these MODES need CW as the METHOD to transfer them.
SSB is a MODE but has a suspressed carrier.

Hope this helps. 73
de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Here is a link, hope it helps:
http://www.dxing.com/modesand.htm

CW is a mode. I am renegging on my promise to not post again. LOL
I think you are hung up on thinking that CW is just a general term for an unmodulated carrier. I think it is accepted within engineering terminology that that the term CW refers to more than just the carrier, but the MODE of on/off keying the carrier. I think if you are going to insist that CW is another word for unmodulated carrier, then you are correct and incorrect at the same time. Yes, you are correct that an unmodulated carrier is analog. But I think the accepted idea of "CW" is that it IS modulated by on/off keying. So, I think you are incorrect in your usage of the term "CW" and are assigning too simplistic a definition. As I said before...we already have a word for unmodulated carrier. It is called an unmodulated carrier. CW is the word for on/off keying of a carrier, just like AM is the term for amplitude modulating a carrier and FM is the term for frequency modulating a carrier. I have a mode switch on my radio. It selects between FM, AM, USB, LSB, and CW. ALL create carriers when I initiate a transmission, and all require that I add intelligence by some form of modulation. Yes, if I key down in CW, a continuos carrier will be transmitted, just as if I key in FM. If my mike elemement is disabled, there will be no modulation. If my CW key is stuck, there will be a carrier without modulation. We would call one an unmodulated FM carrier, and we would call the other an unmodulated CW carrier. If I fix my mike element and begin speaking into it, I start modulating FM with the METHOD of analog phone. If I start keying my straight key, I am modulating the CW carrier with on/off keying. But either way, the term FM denotes a mode and the term CW denotes a mode. And both modes are defined by their method of modulation. Since CW is modulated by on/off keying, the MODE CW is digital. Since FM is usually modulated by analog voice, the mode FM is usually considered analog. CW is MORE digital than FM is analog because CW is ALWAYS considered an on/off mode...while FM can be considered a digital mode when the frequency variation is done between defined points to denoted 1s and 0s.

I am sorry, Alan, but I am concluding that you are convinced that you have the term CW defined as another word for a carrier. And the term is misleading, admittedly, because nothing in the term describes how it is modulated. But since the beginning of radio, the term CW has been used for on/off keying of Morse code. You can go back and look in old books, you'll never see the word "continuous wave" associated with any form of analog modulation. You'll never see that word replaced to mean unmodulated carrier. It has always been understood that a CW signal will be modulated by on off keying, even in the Spark Gap days. You can't have one without the other. If that was the case, all the No-Code Technicians could fire up their rigs, throw carriers on the CW subbands, and tell everyone they are working CW. Wouldn't they be correct? No, I think you are working CW when you work a key up and down. When you are modulating a carrier, it becomes CW. Without the modulation, it is just RF carrier.

UUUGH!

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

KE5FRF writes...
"But I think the accepted idea of "CW" is that it IS modulated by on/off keying. So, I think you are incorrect in your usage of the term "CW" and are assigning too simplistic a definition."

Ok...here are 2 deffinations of CW/Continious Wave, as related to electronics....
1...contin'uous wave' Telecommunications.
an electromagnetic wave of constant amplitude and frequency: used to carry information by being modulated, as in radio or television, or by being interrupted as in radiotelegraphy. Abbr.: CW
(So this one supports my theory that CW is the carrier..don't ever remember seeing a morse code key at any of the radio/tv stations I worked at)

2...continuous wave also con·tin·u·ous-wave (kən-tĭn'yû-əs-wâv') adj. (Abbr. CW)
Emitting or capable of emitting continuously; not pulsed: continuous carrier either modulated or un-modulated.
(ok this one says NOT pulsed, so once you start working you KEY you are pulsing it, its NOT CW its Morse Code)

I have been a broadcast engineer for the past 30 years. These are NOT my words, but straight out of the dictionary. So I stand by what I said earlier...
CW is a METHOD
Morse Code is a MODE
FM is a MODE
AM is a MODE
DIGITAL is a MODE.
SSB is a MODE with suspressed CW.
All of the modes above can be used to encode intelligence onto CW.

Now I agree that the term CW has been used for years meaning one was going to operate Morse Code, but it was NOT correctly used. It may be accepted, and I am NOT trying to change that. Just giving an honest an answer as I can.

73 de W4LGH Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KE5FRF on February 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

continuous wave
For the amateur radio mode called "continuous wave" (CW) see morse code
A continuous wave or continuous waveform (CW) is an electromagnetic wave of constant amplitude and frequency; and in mathematical analysis, of infinite duration. ***Continuous wave is also the name given to an early method of radio transmission, in which a carrier wave is switched on and off.*** Information is carried in the varying duration of the on and off periods of the signal. In radio transmission, CW waves are also known as "undamped waves", to distinguish this method from damped wave transmission.

***Continuous wave is also the name given to an early method of radio transmission, in which a carrier wave is switched on and off.***

I guess it depends on the context you are using it in. Since this is an amateur radio website, and this thread was about Morse Code and the mode (CW) was the context, I have been framing my argument within that context. If we want to talk about electromagnetics in a broader scope, I guess CW can be considered something else. I'll still maintain that when we are discussin the MODE of CW, as it pertains to amateur radio, we are discussing a digital technique in which a carrier is keyed on and off. If we are discussing the broader field of electromagnetics, then the word continuos wave can be used as you quoted.

What were we talking about again? :)

Agree to disagree.

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W4LGH on February 17, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

I will agree that the term "CW" has been associated with the use of Morse Code in ham radio for many years. That Hams when saying there were using CW that they were really using Morse code, but in fact before the days of SSB they WERE using CW when they were talking AM PHONE, FM PHONE or Morse Code. SSB came along and the carrier is suspressed until a word is spoken and the carrier is sent with the work and suspressed at other times so that mode is NOT CW. I will also say that because of this association or all these years just about every ham out there hears CW they think Morse Code. This does not change the pure physics of what CW really is. Being one of those engineer types, I have to look at the entire picture and not just one facit of it. I hope this explains where I am coming from, and from the pure logics and nature of the beast, this is why I stand behind what I have said. Once you start turning the carrier on/off with a key, it is not a continious wave any longer, because you are stopping and starting it all over again.

Anyway, this is it for me on this subject. I think we have beat a dead horse. Looking at it purely from the ham radio side, I see where you are coming from, but looking at it from the entire telecommunications side, CW is the method.

73 de W4LGH ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com

(See folks, you can have a friendly debate on here without flying off the lose end and calling each other names. Not to mention I feel that a lot has been learned out of this friendly debate.)

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KC8QFP on February 18, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

CW to me, would be akin to switching the transmitter on and off to send a message, yeppirs, whatever method used, it would be intellectual. If intellectual code menas digital, Okedokey!

I guess what I am saying here is that when I listen for some QRS code on my radidio to practice and learn the ""art"", all I hear these days is >>perfect sounding CW at 20+wpm<<. Mostly there are guys that READ code on a monitor, and send it on an IBM AT style keyboard if you know what I mean. So it doesn't surprize me here that most would think of code as digital since they cannot "key" it at let's say 50wpm! It would be an easy assumption to consider code as digital when so many use confusers to do it! It is very simular to the other so called digital modes (rtty, packet, psk31 etc). Take away their MFJ code device, and they are probably less proficiant than I am with code, extra or whatever. I call that FAKED cw, rather than digital.

I know guys that can go fast on a Bencher and keyer, they KNOW their code, and I look up to them as mentors. But even many of those guys have gone the way of the digital screen and keyboard, they can only go so fast with the paddle. Faster Faster Faster, as though it were such a big deal. They bitch about the FCC doing away with the code requirement, but when it was so, if a tech wanted to practice, or even a gen that wanted to get his extra, they could find some other slow code dudes doing likewise and there were far more doing CW at less than 13wpm. I knew novices that could do 20+wpm after a while, it can take less than a few months to get that profienciantcy. But they had many more ops to practice with to get there, then code was through the speaker and a real KEY, I wonder how many extraes now even know what sidetone is for?

Now that Uncle Charlie has removed the "code barrier", there will be far less working on imporving their code for advancement on HF. It will be left to the CW lovers. And most of them are speed freaks, it is very hard to find someone willing to go slow for us ""retards"". I know my code, but I need to get used to the Q stuff, the abbreviations, and the code jargon. You begin with charactors, the ABC's, numbers, punctuation, then the Q stuff and so on. But I've found that many have their little perrsonal things that seem like the chat rooms lingo. LOL! hihi! That's the real differance of digital and analog mode of CW code, the LOL and hihi! Listening to W1AW QST articles is not real world CW. I was thinking about recording off the air, then slowing down the tape, but that is not natural timing. It is really getting rare to find slow code on the air, and it seems they don/t want to bother with new general slow coders that simply want to enjoy CW.

This is side stepping the point about digital code mode, but I feel it explains why so many feel code is digital, they cannot do code (or won't) using a key. I like the old fasioned key, or perhaps a paddle. I've used both, but actually I prefer the old Navy key, and I really don't care about being fast. I'm the old fart that drive at 10MPH on the freeway with my left turn signal on all the way, whilst the hot rods zoom by and flip me off!!!

Cheerz, Don

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by COOWALLSKY on February 19, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Wi7B curtsied and then whelped...
"ear "COOLWAALSKY", get off the WALL and please inform yourself... "

I was answeing in the context of today's computers much like the others were. Funny you had to go back in the past to find an evxample odf a computer no longer in use to make your point.

Love to get corrected (incorrectly) by a skirt wearing ham!!

WI7B picture on eHam:
No comment necessary

RE: Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by KS5D on February 19, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

As with most things, I'd say that it's in the eye of the beholder as to whether it's digital or not. However, I can offer up this similarity. In computer science we have something called a Huffman code; these codes form the basis for a number of data compression techniques. The basic idea is to build a code whose character lengths are inversely proportional to the frequence of occurrence of the characters in question. The algorithm is on the Internet, but for the example alphabet {A,B,C,D} and the phrase "A BAD CAB", one possible Huffman coding would be {A=0, B=01, C=000, D=001} -- this leads to the compressed code for the phrase as 0010001000001, or 13 bits as opposed to just giving each letter a 2-bit code (which would make the phrase 14 bits). My belief is that Morse code qualifies as a Huffman code, which is itself a digital code. We simply substitute 0 for dot and 1 for dash or vice-versa.

Is CW (Morse Code) a Digital Mode?

by W3USN on February 19, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Hey old friend, IMHO, CW is absolutely a digital mode. It has two states, on and off. Length of each state is the coding applied to the digital mode.

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary: Those who do and those who don't.

73, Ken

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