Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
Bill Lauterbach (WA8MEA)
on
February 6, 2007
View comments about this article!
The December 1st ice storm took down the 75-meter antenna...and ALMOST the tower. But the garage broke the tree's fall.
This past week, we were nailed again here in southern Michigan. But I have NEVER had ice caked onto antennas like this before. Not even the March storm of eight years ago.
This storm took down ALL of my HF wire antennas. -- From 160 to 20 meters. They were easy enough to put back up. Some required just a little solder splice. Others just needed a new bungee cord to replace their stretched-to-the-breaking-point predecessors.
But what I didn't expect was the "dead short SWR" of 3 to 1 once I put the critters back in the air. What happened? I was using insulated wire. Perhaps the wire stretched to the breaking point underneath the plastic insulation? A continuity test proved that theory wrong.
Upon further review, I noted each and every center insulator was INCASED in a block of ice! No wonder we're showing a "dead short"!
With the forecast looking as if we wouldn't thaw until April, I began to panic that I'd be stuck on two meters or Echolink for the remainder of Winter, '07!
Then I did a little searching on the net...No, not Google…Can't stand 'em. I use "Clusty.com," it's a great group of regular guys and gals located in blue-collar Pittsburgh. Anyway, I looked for defrosting ideas for satellite dishes. Somebody mentions windshield washer fluid. GREAT idea! I've used that "hurry up" concept on my frozen car windows on many a cold Michigan morning!
Now for the delivery method for defrosting my antennas... I talked it over with some ham friends. Al suggested getting one of those tree pruners with the telescopic pole. He mentioned something about duct taping a cup to one of the blades so the cup would pour when the rope was pulled. -- Nah, too much work and not very much fun.
Then it hit me. The kids "Super Soakers!" But alas, like most of their toys...they were busted.
So off to the toy stores. It is VERY hard to find a "Super Soaker" in the middle of winter! But the local "Toy House" in Jackson, MI had a dandy! -- A GUARNTEED stream of 35 feet! Yeh!
That morning we were showing 7 degrees above. That kind of temp might even freeze windshield washer solvent. So I warmed a batch on the stove. Poured it into the "Super Soaker" and proceeded to soak each insulator. Boy, what a blast! And the added steam from the single digit air made the experience even more fun!
One word of warning: DO NOT heat the fluid too much. No, I didn't burn myself. But the fluid was warm enough to melt the glue around some of the seams of the "Super Soaker". Easily repaired with a little "Super Glue." But it's still better to avoid that problem in the first place. So just heat your fluid to lukewarm. It will be enough to do the trick.
One other situation we did discover: Our resonant frequencies moved. Why? Because the ice pulled on the antennas enough to make them S T R E T C H. So a little pruning was in order. (One of the hazards of using stranded copper wire. But I can't stand steel-clad copper! Just too hard to work with...)
73, Bill Lauterbach -- WA8MEA -- http://HamRadioFun.com
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by N4DBC on February 6, 2007
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Good idea. As cold as it is (especially where you are), I wonder how low the temp. would have to get for the fluid to freeze?
I know that some of that stuff claims -40F degrees, but has anyone noticed when it really freezes?
Just curious.
73,
Dave N4DBC
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by AE1Y on February 6, 2007
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I've had it freeze here in New England at 0 degrees F!!
When the fluid hits its target it dilutes with the ice and then freezes. I've never had the fluid it self freeze, only after dilution.
I found that when it gets that cold all you can do is wait for Spring!!
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WG8Z on February 6, 2007
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In areas where icing is a problem having a loop is a nice wire to have up. I have a 75meter loop down at my fishin shack in Kentucky. Although it's a cloud burner at 75m it works out well on 40m and have managed some good dx on 10 thru 20 meters. On a visit after an ice storm last year I found it was coated with about 1/2"
of ice. Anxious to play radio I got to thinking.
Took a so-239 and wired it in series with a 120V male plug and a recepticle. I then connected the pl-259 from the loop and plugged in a 1250w milkhouse heater.
The current of the heater thru the 270'of #14 wire created enough heat that ice began to melt. After about 5 minutes the ice began to slide off. Within 15 minutes the wire was completely clear of ice and I was back on the air!
73 Greg
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K0BG on February 6, 2007
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I'd like you to further explain the "dead short" phrase. 3:1 isn't a dead short. If you measured across the coax with a ohmmeter and got a dead short, and you were using a voltage style balun, I wouldn't be surprised. So curiosity has got the best of me.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K1XT on February 6, 2007
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Many years ago on a cold winter morning I was at the house of good ham friend of mine during a contest. A small ice storm had passed through during the night and the antennas had refused to turn. "Jim. The Yagi is frozen," I said. "We'll get it turning," he said calmly. "Come on." I followed him to the door and before stepping out, he grabbed a 410 shotgun that had been standing by the door. We walked out into the back yard, and I watched him as he proceeded to fire several rounds of bird shot at the yagi and rotor. It was humorous to say the least as I watched the ice explode from the elements at each shot. In short, that took care of it. And when up working on the antennas that spring, I never noticed any damage to them. "Over the years I have perfected the load," he told me one day. "I load about dozen shells in the fall in anticipation." Funny to see, but it sure worked.
Bill K1XT
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by W9OY on February 6, 2007
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I don't know what washer fluid has in it these days, but if its at all volatile I would be careful about heating it on a stove.
Alcohol vapor on a scale of 1-10 regarding explosivity is a 10.
Ether is an 11
73 W9OY
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K8MHZ on February 6, 2007
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"I'd like you to further explain the "dead short" phrase. 3:1 isn't a dead short. If you measured across the coax with a ohmmeter and got a dead short, and you were using a voltage style balun, I wouldn't be surprised. So curiosity has got the best of me."
Wouldn't the SWR of a dead short vary with the length of the feedline? For example, wouldn't their be a difference if the short were 1/4 wave down the line vs. 1/2 wave?
I know the impedance can change from all the way from an open to a short as the distance along the feedline changes but I have never looked to see what effect that has on the SWR.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K3GM on February 6, 2007
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It sounded like a good idea right up to where the washer fluid was heated on the stove! A quick check of a MSDS for typical washer fluid reveals 32% methanol. Please!....don't heat the washer fluid unless you'd like to be a candidate for the 2007 Darwin Awards.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KE6VG on February 6, 2007
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Get rid of the balun and just put a handful of RF choke beads at the feedline with some heat shrink tubing. Problem solved.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K8MHZ on February 6, 2007
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K3GM is correct.
When a mixture of water and methanol is heated the methanol evaporates first and rises out of the container. When it hits the cooler air on the outside of the container it cools and when it does it falls down alongside the container and comes in contact with the heating element (or worse yet flame) of the stove. The methanol, now purified by the process of distillation, will ignite at it's flash point, which is much lower than the temperature of the heating element. No flame or spark is needed.
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K8AG on February 6, 2007
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My antenna survived quite nicely. I am using copper clad steel with bungee cord strain relief on each end. The trees drooped really low but as the trees returned to their normal position, my antenna went back up.
It was a really bad ice storm. So far, so good.
73, JP, K8AG
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by AA4LR on February 6, 2007
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K8MHZ responds:
"I'd like you to further explain the "dead short" phrase. 3:1 isn't a dead short. If you measured across the coax with a ohmmeter and got a dead short, and you were using a voltage style balun, I wouldn't be surprised. So curiosity has got the best of me."
Wouldn't the SWR of a dead short vary with the length of the feedline? For example, wouldn't their be a difference if the short were 1/4 wave down the line vs. 1/2 wave?
--
Good question. With a perfect feedline, the SWR of a dead short would not change. The actual impedance would change of course, as it would go from a dead short to dead open in 1/4 wave, and back down to a dead short at 1/2 wave. But the SWR would always be the same - infinity : 1.
Of course, we don't have perfect feedlines (or, for that matter, perfect shorts). As the reflections pass through a lossy feedline, they lose energy, so the SWR tends to decrease as the impedance spirals toward the Zo of the feedline.
This is why a long length of coax makes a pretty good dummy load at UHF and microwave frequencies.
So, you are correct in pointing out that the impedance will change through the feedline, from both the electrical length and the losses. However, the SWR does not change with electrical length, only through losses.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by AA4LR on February 6, 2007
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KE6VG writes:
"Get rid of the balun and just put a handful of RF choke beads at the feedline with some heat shrink tubing. Problem solved."
Well, a "handful" of beads may not be enough, depending on the material of the beads. For Type 43 beads, you may need a few FEET of beads to get sufficient choking impedance for 80m and below.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K4JF on February 6, 2007
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My heart goes out to you guys! I once lived in Maryland, then the Tennessee mountains. Too cold for me!
This just makes me appreciate living in northwestern South Carolina all the more. None of that sub-zero stuff, and 1,000 ft above MSL so it doesn't get too hot or humid in the summer either.
Then there's my philosophy that one shouldn't be where the temp goes below your age. It's well below that here for me, but those 20-something whippersnappers are doing fine!!.. :o) .. I need to be in the islands, Mon!
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KE6VG on February 6, 2007
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The choke balun with the beads has always done the job for me and it's cheap.
http://www.palomar-engineers.com/Balun_Kits/balun_kits.html
And it only needs about 8" of beads, not a couple of feet.
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA1RNE on February 6, 2007
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Take care squirting this stuff in the air. I doubt it will be fun getting methanol in your eyes.
As K3GM pointed out, I wouldn't heat this fluid on the stove either. The ham radio antennas certainly aren't worth the risk of being severely burned.
Try wrapping your insulators with a few layers of Teflon tape, like the stuff used for plumbing threads or another type that's a bit heavier. The ice may just slide off or not stick at all.
....WA1RNE
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by W8KQE on February 6, 2007
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Interesting article. I sometimes have problems with my 'GAP Eagle DX' vertical in severe winter weather where ice forms. The SWR (usually 1.5 and under) climbs to insane levels on some bands, and even the rig's antenna tuner has problems with it. Unfortunately, it's too cold and treacherous to climb up onto the roof to do anything about it. I am realizing the best solution would be a 'tilt-over' ground mount install, so that I may access the antenna better.
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 6, 2007
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The article is NOT meant to be technical. The term "dead short" was ONLY used to spruce up the lingo of the article.
Since my lil' SWR meter only shows a max number of three and then the "red zone"...I often refer to a "short" in the system as anything being 3 to 1. Bad habit.
But...if you would like...I can wait for the next ice storm and break out the old "Knight-Kit" SWR meter. That puppy goes all the way to 30 to 1!
But an interesting point has been raised. A short doesn't have to be a "dead"...or show max continuity...in order to be a short.
The VOM did show a swing, but only 3/4 of the meter. Had I touched the two probes together, the meter would have indicated a "dead short" by swinging all the way over to the right.
In my life, I have had just one strand of shield touch the center pin of the coax connector....and not register a full swing in continuity. So you can have direct contact between two electrical sources...and still not register a "dead short".
BTW, there is a SLIGHT amount of methanol in the traditional BLUE wiper fluid. But you can't set the stuff on fire. I think they just warn folks as a legal C.Y.A. thing. (And to make sure you put it away where the pets can't get it and accidently drink it!)
73, Bill - WA8MEA
HamRadioFun.com
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by NB3O on February 6, 2007
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Don't know about you guys, but I'm going to keep this blue liquid away from the stove.
PRODUCT NAME
Austin Windshield Washer Fluid (pre-mixed) -20
SECTION 2 -- COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
HAZARDOUS EXPOSURE LIMITS
COMPONENT CAS No. % by wt. OSHA PEL ACGIH TLV NIOSH REL
Methanol
67-56-1
29.47
200 ppm
200 ppm
None
SECTION 5 -- FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
FLASH POINT / METHOD
112 deg F
FLAMMABLE LIMITS
LEL: 6.7%
UEL: 36.5%
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA
Use of dry chemical, carbon dioxide, water spray, alcohol foam
SPECIAL FIRE FIGHTING
PROCEDURES
Use fog or spray to prevent flooding. Be prepared to use MSHA-NIOSH self-contained breathing apparatus and protective clothing.
FIRE AND EXPLOSION
HAZARDS
Treat as a flammable liquid. There is the chance of a moderate explosion and/or dangerous fire hazard.
SECTION 9 -- PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
APPEARANCE
Clear blue liquid
BOILING POINT
148 deg F
ODOR
Slight alcohol aroma
FREEZING POINT
-20 deg F
pH
8.0 – 9.0
VAPOR PRESSURE
97
SPECIFIC GRAVITY
0.960
VAPOR DENSITY
1.11
SOLUBILITY IN WATER
100%
EVAPORATION RATE
5.9
SECTION 10 -- STABILITY AND REACTIVITY
CHEMICAL STABILITY
STABLE
X
UNSTABLE
CONDITIONS TO AVOID
Heat, sparks, flames. No smoking when using.
INCOMPATIBILITY
Strong oxidizing agents such as nitrates or sulfuric acid.
HAZARDOUS PRODUCTS
OF DECOMPOSITION
Burning may produce carbon monoxide and formaldehyde.
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KE4ZHN on February 6, 2007
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Heating methanol on a stove can be extremely hazardous to ones health....lol
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by W0FM on February 6, 2007
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Years ago, I had an elderly ham buddy who swore by the application of automobile wax to the elements of his wire antennas. Each fall he would drop the wires, run them through a sponge treated generously with Turtle Wax, then pull them back up for the winter. He claimed that water fell off the wires before it could freeze.
I never had the opportunity (or desire) to test his theory, but his antennas stayed up all winter, every winter. And the only thing he heated on the stove was hot buttered rum.
There were a lot of those types of stories told sitting around the shack on a cold February night.
YMMV.
Terry, WØFM
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KE4ZHN on February 6, 2007
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Try some of this http://www.heatersplus.com/roofs.htm
If someone cared to take the time why couldn't you fish some wire like this inside the elements of a yagi or vertical to keep it deiced? This resistance wire comes in different sizes and watt ratings. It could be run inside of aluminum tubing and shouldn't affect the tuning of the antenna too severely. For wire dipoles you would have to pair this up with your antenna wire and of course this will change the resonant frequency. But with some patience and retuning I don't see why you couldn't make this work. The only catch to this may be RF getting back into your house wiring. You'd have to choke it off somewhere before it reaches the wiring. Some large ferrites should take care of that. When icing conditions exist simply plug in your deicer and stay on the air. Just like the commercial broadcasters do. Its also a lot safer than risking blowing up your house heating methanol on the stove!
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KC0SHZ on February 6, 2007
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OK, so another benefit of Ham Radio.
1. "Its not junk, honey, its for my radio"
2. "Honest, honey, the slingshot is for putting up my antennas"
3. "The extra Turtlewax is for the antenna wire, really"
4. "The Supersoaker is for the radio, honey, honest!"
I will avoid the warming of the fluid on the stove. I might think about using one of those handwarmer packs along the storage tank on the Supersoaker to get the fluid above freezing...
Great story, glad we didn't find you SK after a methanol fire.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KE4DRN on February 6, 2007
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'Turtle Wax for that Hard Shell Finish, TURTLE WAX' !
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KG6WLV on February 6, 2007
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Jeeze, someone else remembers that old Turtle Wax jingle. I wish I could use those brain cells for USEFUL information! HI HI
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KT4WO on February 6, 2007
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I won't be using the stove(hee hee),,, but I think the
Wax idea is good as well as the Washer Fluid.
Ice is not a big problem in Western NC (well, my QTH)
but, this would be good for those "Wet" snows
we get from time to time.
Tnx for the good ideas!!
KT4WO
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by AI4NS on February 6, 2007
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A friend of mine has a simple rule I happen to agree with: If you see a sign on a bridge that says "Bridge may Ice in cold weather", you are too far north. I live near Pensacola, FL, and it gets cold enough here for me.
Mike
AI4NS
A neat idea, except for the heating part. If I ever have to be in that climate again, I will keep it in mind.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KB3MDT on February 6, 2007
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Hi,
I can't resist replying to this post. A safer way to heat Windshield Washer Solution is to fill a bucket up about 1/2 way with warm or hot water from the facuet. Then stick the whole gallon jug of washer solution in the bucket after loosening the cap on the jug. No flame, no chance of overheating the fluid (unless your water heater needs adusting).
Another possible option. Fasten an old hair dryer to a long pole. Run lots of extension cords. See if you can hold the pole still when the hair dryer at the far end acts like a mini jet engine.
Luckily, I live in Pennsylvania and have never had icy antennas. Enjoy.
Ken
73
KB3MDT
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 6, 2007
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If windshield washer solvent was THAT VOLITILE, don't you think car mfg's would find a different way of distributing it to your little window ejaculators??? I mean, come on.... If one of those little "high quality" rubber washer hoses should spring a leak under that hood, we could see the entire car engulfed in massive, explosive flames from all of that methanol hitting the exhaust system and manifolds!
I just took half a cup full and dumped it inside my wood stove. Just as I thought, the water "outperforms" the methanol and the little fire in that corner of the wood stove quickly extinguished.
Go ahead! Put a little bit into a jar lid and attempt to light the stuff. If you ignite it, I want to know what brand it is so I can use it in my radiator instead of that expensive Prestone coolant/anti-freeze.
We just tried the experiment with my wife and youngest son present. I used up a half a pack o' matches before I gave up and concluded we weren't gonna light the juice in the jar lid on fire. I even stacked the old matches in a pile, soaking up all of the massive quantities of methanol. (Like a wick...) STILL wouldn't light!
And this is fresh blue moonshine! Just bought it!
Should I ask for my money back since I can't get 'er to ignite??
;-)
73, Bill - WA8MEA
HamRadioFun.com
P.S. I do like the Turtle Wax idea....
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 6, 2007
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OK. I did a little checking on the net.
For those rich hams who prefer to go for the $5 a jug "explosive" stuff, I will concede that you probably shouldn't warm your "blue juice" on any stove. Your concentration of alcohol to water will be higher.
However, for us "blue collar" hams, my cheap 99 cent jug says 90% water/10% methanol.
I'd have better luck setting my laundry detergent on fire....
73, Bill - WA8MEA
HamRadioFun.com
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KD4LLA on February 6, 2007
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You cannot get that washer fluid to burn or ignite if you wanted too. We just live in mamby-pamby times and everyone is ready to call their lawyers. My mother died in her sleep, does that mean I am not sleeping the rest of my life?
And for the really chilly folks, there is washer fluid sold in the far north that will go to minus 60 or more. For at least two weeks in February 2000 the average Fairbanks, AK outside temp was 55 below. My vehicles stayed outside, the washer fluid worked, my Yaesu FT-8100 radio worked flawlessly.
I do agree with the person who says "you should not be somewhere the temp goes below your age." My Alaska adventure was years ago, I would not trade it for anything, but I am not visiting Alaska in the winter anymore either!
Mike
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by N9CYS on February 6, 2007
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HEAT THE WASHER FLUID ON THE STOVE?!?!?!
KABOOM!!!!
SHOOT AT MY ARRAY WITH A SHOTGUN?!?!?!
BOOM?!?! Reload. BOOM?!?!?!
I'll be operating next Field Day 1D, thank you.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by NC2W on February 6, 2007
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Not quite sure why one would want to heat the solution. All you want is melting point depression. The sensible heat is rather small.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA0SAP on February 6, 2007
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Waxing the antenna wires keeps the ice off the wires and makes the RF just slide off, COOL. Antenna Wax patient pending.
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KB5DOH on February 6, 2007
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Now that I have stopped LMAO and my jaw is hurting from Lso Much, I have really enjoyed this "forum on
"Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?" but have to admit some good idea's here lol.
"Ouch my cheeks hurt to"
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K9KJM on February 6, 2007
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Just what do they use at the big airports to de-ice the big jet aircraft????
I hope those who live further south dont get too smug.
Ice storms DO happen as far south as down into Florida! Just not as frequent as up here in the northland.
A .410 shotgun to knock off ice???? I would be more than a little concerned about little holes in my coax............ I have used shotguns for lots of "Jobs"--- tree trimming, stump removal, etc. But I dont think I will add antenna de icing to that list anytime soon..........
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KF6HCD on February 7, 2007
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Said by K1XT:
"Many years ago on a cold winter morning I was at the house of good ham friend of mine during a contest. A small ice storm had passed through during the night and the antennas had refused to turn. "Jim. The Yagi is frozen," I said. "We'll get it turning," he said calmly. "Come on." I followed him to the door and before stepping out, he grabbed a 410 shotgun that had been standing by the door. We walked out into the back yard, and I watched him as he proceeded to fire several rounds of bird shot at the yagi and rotor. It was humorous to say the least as I watched the ice explode from the elements at each shot. In short, that took care of it. And when up working on the antennas that spring, I never noticed any damage to them. "Over the years I have perfected the load," he told me one day. "I load about dozen shells in the fall in anticipation." Funny to see, but it sure worked.
Bill K1XT"
====================================================
Brilliant! The "Shatter Effect"!
I love it! I don't live in an ice storm area, but I will keep it in mind, if ever I move out of SoCal to an environment such as that. Could be fun. My XYL doesn't allow even BB guns in the house. Might be a hard sell. Just as well; My kids are able to open just about anything.
Wonderful anecdote. Thanks for that.
Ken KF6HCD
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KC8VWM on February 7, 2007
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"There is simply nothing in Storm Team Plus that can hurt any living thing and it is less corrosive then water."
(snip)
"Storm Team Plus Liquid features our slow down evaporation so it lasts longer. For use as pre-treatment or deicing on concrete, **metal** or any non-porous surface.
Long lasting and works for extended periods of time.
http://www.interstateproducts.com/ice_melt_products.htm?gclid=CKev0_2znIoCFQ6kWAoddmxjmw#liquid
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RE: Add Washer Fluid, Non needed.
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by W6TH on February 7, 2007
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.
It is minus 3 F (-3 F) today and no problems with my antennas with 2 foot icicles hanging from them.
Guess I was lucky to install my antennas.
.:
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 7, 2007
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All sarcasm aside, I did learn something here.
I grew up thinking all vehicle solvents were the same since they had to meet ASA requirements as well as other specs. I honestly did not realize that there were different mixtures of alcohol and water in washer fluid. I thought there was a "standard".
I figured the price differential was due to "brand naming". For instance, I bought this generic crap from K-Mart. But had I bought Prestone brand washer solvent, I thought I was paying for the name, NOT for extra alcohol.
But now I know why the wiper pump will sometimes freeze up on these cold Michigan mornings. Not all solvents are created equal.
So...when I'm in the big city today, I'm gonna buy a jug of "the good stuff" and put it in all of my vehicles.
But this also goes back to the subject at hand. Instead of the cheap stuff in the super soaker, next time I will get the Prestone. Then I probably won't have to do so many repeat soakings of the insulators.
But then again, those repeat soakings gave me a good excuse for having a little boyhood type fun!
73, Bill - WA8MEA
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KX8N on February 7, 2007
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Maybe I'm missing something, but if you're talking about exposed connections being iced up and changing your SWR, wouldn't it be easier to weatherproof the connections BEFORE the cold weather actually hits? It seems if you do that once, during installation, that ice would never be an issue again - at least not ice on the connection. I realize you can't ice-proof the entire antenna.
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by NG9D on February 7, 2007
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wa0SAP HAD an idea with his antenna wax!
Here's what's worked for me.
500' spools of the wire they sell for buried dog fences. It is covered in a tough, UV resistant HDPE insulation.
The high density polyethelene has a sufficiently low coefficient of friction that ice and snow have a hard time adhering to it.
Also, the 20 solid conductor is strong enough for say 60- 70 ft spans, at least (although i did use it for a 300 ft loop once that stretched a bit). Plus, you can simply "knot" the insulated wire and attach it to a nylon cord which avoids the weight and surface area of an insulator.
The tough HDPE allows direct support via tree branches, I use old baseballs with a nylon leader line to launch the antenna over the trees.
My 160m end fed quarter wave has survived a winter, so far... and small diameter wire doesn't aggrevate the neighbors, since they generally don't notice it.
73 NG9D
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by W6TH on February 7, 2007
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.
This may be new to you new hams, but to the old timers, before ww2 we used wooden insulaters and boiled them in paraffin (wax), let them cool off and then a hot dip into the paraffin. This put a heavy coating of wax and prevented any fluids to contaminate our spreaders. Back then as normal, we built most of our home brew devices.
My wooden spreaders and insulators are made with Teak wood, but today any kind of wood would be useable.
Remember to drill your holes prior to waxing and make the length about 4 inches, the lighter the better.
W6TH.
.:
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KC0RBX on February 7, 2007
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Another "delivery method" could be to use one of those fire extinguishers that you can refill yourself then pressurize with an air compressor. Made great fun when we were kids sneaking up on each other in our cars on a hot Saturday night!
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 7, 2007
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KX8N wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but if you're talking about exposed connections being iced up and changing your SWR, wouldn't it be easier to weatherproof the connections BEFORE the cold weather actually hits? It seems if you do that once, during installation, that ice would never be an issue again - at least not ice on the connection. I realize you can't ice-proof the entire antenna.
---------------------------------
From the article:
Upon further review, I noted each and every center insulator was INCASED in a block of ice!
---------------------------------
I am using both Van Gordon and Budwig center insulators. Connections are weatherproofed. BUT...the big, fat, stiff prongs that poke out of the Budwigs aren't completely covered. Neither are the "eye hooks" on the Van Gordon.
Not only that, but END INSULATERS were completely covered, causing the antennas to electronically lengthen.
This ice was THICK...I am a tellin' ya...
73, Bill - WA8MEA
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KC8VWM on February 7, 2007
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Maybe I'm missing something, but if you're talking about exposed connections being iced up and changing your SWR, wouldn't it be easier to weatherproof the connections BEFORE the cold weather actually hits?
-------------
I think we are more concerned about 2 foot icicles hanging from longwire antenna's and various measures we can take to prevent that from happening.
73
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KX8N on February 7, 2007
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"I think we are more concerned about 2 foot icicles hanging from longwire antenna's and various measures we can take to prevent that from happening. "
Well, that's why I asked. I couldn't see someone out there hosing down 100' of antenna wire with 2 foot icicles, using windshield fluid. I didn't realize it was THAT effective.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KC8VWM on February 7, 2007
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Yeah, I am a little skeptical of trying that idea too. I was thinking that wire might be cheaper to replace than the idea of buying a case of washer fluid as a prevention.
73
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by N1XBP on February 7, 2007
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I have the ends of my G5RV jr. support lines going through pulleys and then down to some old window sash weights because in a good wind the nearby trees sometimes sway quite a bit. I wound a current balun of RG-58 on a plastic folgers coffe tub, snapped the lid on and forgot about it. The other day my tuning was a bit off, so I went out and looked at the antenna.. The part in the air didn't seem abnormal, but then I noticed the feed point of the ladder section was nearly touching the ground, and the tub already was.
Water had gotten into the tub, frozen, and accumulated until it weighted the whole antenna.. the pulleys did just what they were supposed to, the feed point got caught up in the way I tied it so it all pulled like a sling shot. I drilled a hole in the tub, knocked out the ice plug, and let gravity pull it back up for me!
73
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KA8VIT on February 7, 2007
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Here in Cleveland, Ohio, winters can be pretty rough.
I use coax seal on my center insulators just for this very reason.
Wrapped securely around the wires and insulator, there is no way water or ice will bridge and short the wires.
When the wires are loaded with snow or ice the impedance may change a little... but the tuner fixes that.
I also loosen the support lines a little to give them some slack.
73
Bill KA8VIT
ka8vit@ka8vit.com
http://ka8vit.com
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KF5ZW on February 7, 2007
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MFJ Antenna Wax coming to a store near you.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 7, 2007
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>>MFJ Antenna Wax coming to a store near you.
-----------------------------------
Now THAT'S funny! I don't care who ya'r...that's just dam funny!
Bill
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K8MHZ on February 7, 2007
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If you have a loop antenna simply put a few volts of power into the antenna.
Here is how to figure out how much. Measure the DC resistance. Using that info you now know how much current will flow for each volt applied. Now look at the temp rating of the insulation on the wire for the antenna. Let's use #12 AWG for example. THHN/2 is rated for 90 deg. centigrade. A quick look at the books show that I can push 30 amperes through it before I exceed 90 deg. centigrade, plenty of heat to melt ice, don't you think?
Now for those that are ohmically illiterate, Let's say you saw 1.2 ohms of DC resistance. 36 volts should get the wire to 190 deg. F or so. I would start with 24 and see what happens.
If your insulated wire catches fire you can put it out with windshield washer fluid.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 7, 2007
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Wrapped securely around the wires and insulator, there is no way water or ice will bridge and short the wires.
-------------------------------
Ya know, I use to think that stuff too. Until I opened up a fully sealed antenna connection one time and found condensation and tons of corrosion.
When we first bought this ole house, I had a puddle down in this basement shack every time it rained. But I couldn't for the life of me find the source!
Then one day I stopped at the puddle and watched the slow....but steady....drip, drip, drip. (Insert Cheech & Chong joke here....)
It was coming from the breaker box! A closer look showed it was coming from the INSIDE of the insulated cable from the meter!
Water was slipping through the top of the meter box, and then found an outlet INSIDE the cable at the bottom of the box!
Water is very fluid ya know. ;-) It can find ways of getting into things it ain't suppose to. Ears. Basements. Keyboards. (OK, water in the form of coffee on that one....)
73, Bill
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by ARRLBOOSTER on February 8, 2007
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This would work better if you first heated up the washer fluid. The fastest way to do this is to hold a pan over the open flame of an outdoor gas grill. Gaze closely at the bubbles, as it approaches a boil-and quickly pour into the soaker. Good Luck!
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K8UPA on February 9, 2007
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I just lower my ropes so the antenna's are near the ground, let out the dogs and presto instant de-icing :)
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K1DA on February 9, 2007
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SAAB for years had an option that consisted of a little heat exchanger which heated the washer fluid by contact with the hot radiator water.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by WA8MEA on February 10, 2007
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by K1DA
SAAB for years had an option that consisted of a little heat exchanger which heated the washer fluid by contact with the hot radiator water.
--------------------------------------------------
But wouldn't that cause the wiper fluid to EXPLODE/BURST INTO FLAMES???
Just a lil sarcasm. I did look at some Prestone washer fluid yesterday. The price wasn't that bad. $3/gallon. Alcohol content was higher and they guaranteed that it would not freeze up on the coldest mornings. I didn't buy any cuz I bought a case of this cheap, blue stuff and have four jugs left.
I guess it's OK to cook the weak/cheap stuff. But I think it might be a better idea (as someone suggested) of putting the more potent fluid inside a pot of water....and heat the pot of water.
BTW, I got this idea from an old girlfriend: She would NEVER buy Windex! She would buy the cheapo blue washer fluid and a sprayer, and then wash her windows, mirror, TV screen, etc. with the washer fluid.
I have done the same since learning from her.
73, Bill - WA8MEA
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by AA4LR on February 13, 2007
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K9KJM asks:
"Just what do they use at the big airports to de-ice the big jet aircraft????"
Ethylene Glycol. The same stuff you put in your radiator. You definitely don't want to be putting that stuff on the stove, or spraying it in the air with a supersoaker.
Aiports de-ice on certain concrete pads and collect the runoff back through special drains for re-use. Ethylene Glycol does nasty stuff to living organisms.
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by N2JDQ on February 14, 2007
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Ide like to revert back to the ole 410 method. I have a bunch of friends back where I grew up that are into VHF contesting... 100' + towers and in the january contest its almost a givin that the yagis will ice up. Can I get the specs for that 410 load? Has any one loaded rocksalt in a 410 shell with sucuess? Yes im serious. :)
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KD2E on February 15, 2007
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Lucky in NJ this year...no snow, no ice!!
Anyway, a good idea is to have any wire antenna on a pulley setup. If it breaks (or freezes)..just lower it with the pulley rope. Fix or thaw it, and pull it back up. Now, the beam up on the tower is another problem!!!
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RE: Why not hot WATER?
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by N6HBJ on February 15, 2007
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I'm not going to reall those prior posts but what's wrong with using hot water? What does wiper fluid do differently?
~Mike N6HBJ
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who needs washer fluid
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by KI4PGS on February 15, 2007
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just use aerisol. all you have to do is spray, light, and presto, instant flame-thrower!
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by KD6NEM on February 16, 2007
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If you choose radiator type antifreeze for deicing antennas the propylene glycol based stuff is much safer for critters, etc. Ethylene based has a bad habit of killing kidney function in even small amounts, plus is illegal to dump into the environment.
Methanol's greatest danger is not necessarily fire (although it can be a very real issue if concentrated enough)- enough skin or eye contact for long enough and it will have near immediate significant health consequences too. I seem to recall it can be slightly corrosive, too. So what is the alternative???
I bet many of you will wince at this one.....
Got any good aged 80+ proof in your liquor cabinet?
I can just see it making the TV news: "Local HAM Operator Gets Sloshed as He Sloshes away Slush on Antennas- story at six..." :-D
Stu KD6NEM
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RE: Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by W4LGH on February 20, 2007
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Hmmmm... hasn't bee a real issue here in Florida.
Guess if we were to get ice here, we'd have bigger problems to worry about. (grin)
However I do come from an area where ice was a problem. On commercial installed we had commercial de-icers installed on the antennas, especially on satellite up/downlinks.
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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Add Washer Fluid to Your Antenna Sir?
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by K0RGR on February 21, 2007
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I think I can give you the answers on different brands of washer fluid.
Cheap Blue Stuff freezes at or above zero. I found this out on Donner Pass in California one cold winter night coming home from Reno. It's no fun having to pull over in traffic and deep snow, and scrape your windshield with a credit card because that's all you have with you. I had to drive with my head out the window for many miles.
The 'pink stuff' is much better. It works below zero.
But the "yellow stuff" from Prestone is the best. We really got to try it one day, 11 years ago. It was my in-laws' 50th wedding anniversary and we had to drive from eastern Minnesota to southwest Iowa. The temp here was an all-time record : -40F, windchills of about -100. The "yellow stuff" did a great job on the outside of the windows. Sadly, it was so cold that we had to stop and buy small ice scrapers for the INSIDES of the windows.
I want to know what they use to de-ice the planes in Fairbanks. They let them fly down to -60F there.
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