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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?

Don Keith (N4KC) on February 28, 2007
View comments about this article!


If Nobody Transmits…Is the Band Dead?

Well, of course not! At least not necessarily. As we suffer through the doldrums of the rock bottom of the sunspot cycle, we cannot really expect the prime DX bands to be hopping 24 hours a day, or for even the occasional openings to last long enough for many of us to discover them. We have all sat and twisted the dial and heard nothing but sizzle on 20, 17, 15, 12 and 10 meters. And we are all quick to give up and assume there is no propagation there as we switch bands and contemplate lots of wire in the sky for 160 and 75 meters for the next several years.

It has been my opinion, though, that those bands actually offer some possibilities at times we least suspect. Since we make the assumption that our RF is shooting right out into space, never to be detected and heard by human ears, we allow those opportunities to go right on by. I know from experience that it is frustrating to call CQ for hours with no reply. Or to tune to a favorite beacon station and hear nothing but “swish!” No answer, no beacon, no propagation! What's on TV tonight?

Then, along comes a contest, and the bands magically open up. Do CQ Magazine or the ARRL have the ability to turn on and off the actions of the ionosphere? Do they somehow have influence over the sun gods? The point was brought home once again during the ARRL CW DX contest. When I flipped on the rig on Saturday morning, the DX packet cluster was buzzing with 15-meter spots yelling about all kinds of exotic call signs. And when I listened across the CW portion of the band, I was stunned. Europe, Africa, the Caribbean, Central and South America…even Hawaii! And most with solid signals. And they heard me, too, often on the first call with my 100 watts and a skywire horizontal loop.

But how? I had listened on 15 meters several times the week leading up to the contest, hoping we might see the first signs of improving conditions. Nothing! Absolutely nothing! And none of the bulletins mentioned any kind of unusual solar event that might explain the band suddenly coming to life, just because the contest had started.

About the same time, I discovered a wonderful piece of software written by Julian Moss, G4ILO. And to make it even more wonderful, Julian makes the program available free to radio amateurs. It seems Julian had the same needs most of us have—not a lot of time to tune across the ten HF bands to see what is open for DXing or ragchewing at any given time, and also a yearning to see if there really could be propagation if somebody just hit the key or microphone button.

Called VOAProp, the system features a very simple and impressive user interface to allow us to easily access the VOACAP propagation model, developed by the U.S. Navy Research Laboratory and the Institute of Telecommunication Sciences under the sponsorship of the Voice of America (thus the “VOA” in VOACAP). It can be set up to automatically check for sunspot data (solar indexes, smoothed sunspot numbers) and propagation updates from WWV. In the spirit of full disclosure, Julian points out in his documentation that his system (and the data on which it relies) is highly accurate for historical data but it can only make a best-guess prediction about current and future propagation paths. And it obviously cannot predict short-term events like solar storms. But VOAProp does the best job of about anything there is when it comes to making its prophecy. And it can be interesting to go back to previous years, maybe when you were first licensed, and see what kind of DX you missed out on way back when!

The system gives you the capability of setting your QTH by latitude and longitude (I picked a pre-set for Montgomery, Alabama, 60 miles away, instead of my actual lat/long because I was too lazy to look it up). Then you can pick the timeframe you want to study (including the current month), and instruct the software to track your computer clock, converting to GMT, so it will update as the earth rotates. You can also choose from three different levels of station setups—QRO with a beam, 100 watts with a wire antenna, and QRP. The primary display is a map of the world that clearly shows the gray line and propagation paths in real time. You can see approximate estimated signal strengths that might be encountered to and from parts of the globe at the time the user selected. You can also choose to have the map display actual call areas that it might be possible for you to reach, based on the VOACAP model and the latest available solar data. That option made the map a bit busy for my taste so I left it off.

0x01 graphic

But there is more. You can also click on a spot on the map, defining a path from your QTH to a desired part of the world. (See the yellow line in the screen shot showing the path from my shack to Italy). You can make it long path, too, simply by checking a box. Then you can call up a chart that shows expected propagation from your location to that spot in the world by frequency and time of the day. Interested in trying to work one of the J20s after work next Monday? Set the time you want and then click once and choose the “Show Chart” button to see what your best options might be. The chart below is for the model propagation from my QTH to Nicaragua for February 2007, based on my station setup. I have a decent chance of maintaining a schedule with a YN friend on 40 meters most anytime in the evening but it would likely be a rough go on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

0x01 graphic

And finally, VOAProp allows the user to see the location and status of recognized IARU beacon stations on every HF band from 20 meters up, including beam headings from your QTH and a neat little S-meter that predicts how well you should be able to hear the station based on propagation predictions.

Of course, anything close to current time or into the future is subject to modeling and estimates since much of the information is based on the smoothed sunspot number. But in the short time I have been using the program, I've found it works impressively on those bands where there is activity that I can hear. All bets are off if we have a solar storm or other propagation buster.

Not only is this a valuable tool for finding DX on “dead” bands, but I also see this software as a fantastic way to learn more about HF propagation. And if enough of us use it, we might actually begin getting answers to our CQs on 15 and 12! At the very least, it is fun to play with, and, with its attractive interface, it might even get some interest from others in the household if you show it to them.

To learn more about the software or to download the system, go to:

You can also simply Google “G4ILO” and see more about VOAProp. There are other systems available. KU5S has a software system that also uses VOACAP, and offers a free-ware version at http://www.taborsoft.com/. I have not had an opportunity to review it but maybe someone can and report to us.

Now, VOAProp says we should have decent propagation to Europe on 30, and I think I'll run take a look.

73,

Don Keith N4KC

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by ONAIR on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the program! This looks like a great way to predict what DX might be available using computer data.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KB2UBH on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
This looks like a very nice program to have. Thank you. As a newly upgraded ham I look forward to using this. Spent all morning twisting the knobs on my 847 without much luck.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by N5JFJ on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"WONDERFUL" and "THANK YOU" to ALL the Hams and persons, that put such hard work and efforts into great programs that assist the operator. God Bless, Good DX, 73
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W4KTX on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Good article. I agree, it is frustrating when the bands appear dead, but during a contest, the bands appear to come alive. The bands are not as dead as we think, just nobody using them. I will try out this program and give it s shot

Mike, N9VG
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by VA3DXV on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I used this when it was called "HFProp". It's probably much better now that they're using some better data from VOA.

I am also thankful for the great ham radio software such as this being made freely available by other hams. There are some great tools out there, and it's amazing some of them are free. UI-View and Ham Radio Deluxe also spring to mind.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AA4LR on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
In that same ARRL DX contest on 10m, from NQ4I's station, we were hearing NOTHING on 10m late Sunday morning. The propagation prediction programs said we should have strong propagation into South America, at least. Nada.

In the early afternoon, I spent over an hour calling CQ into a dead band. I was even spotted by a ham in florida who indicated that mine was the only signal on the band.

About mid-afternoon, the band finally opened. And the opening was weird. In order to hear stations south of us, we had to beam slightly north of west. Eventually, propagation slid around to the southwest. We ended up tripling our contacts from the first day (ie from a dozen to almost three dozen).

Bottom line: propagation prediction programs can help, but they aren't perfect.

 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.
Dead bands? Here is the proof that ham radio is a hobby, caused by dx and contests.

Great hobby for kids and old retired men, but does not keep "em" from using computers.

VOACAP is fun and always welcomed in my shack; although not perfect, yet a great source of information. Thanks for a great write-up.
.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KG6WLS on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Neat!! Another program to slow down my computer even more. HI! I'll look into this one.

BTW, the bands are dead if we don't use them. I don't care what age we are.

73
Mike
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by K0IZ on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Check out QST, Oct 2006, for my review of nine propagation programs, most based on VOACAP (the analysis program behind the scenes of most of the software). JOhn.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by N4KZ on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for some very interesting information, Don. I will try this software.

I use the voice-keyer feature of my computer logging program to call a pre-recorded CQ. I enjoy going to 10, 12 and 15 meters when they sound dead. I keep punching the F1 key on the keyboard to call CQ until I get an answer -- and very often I do. The bands aren't as dead as they sound.

It just takes someone to make some noise.

You know the old saying about, "If everyone is listening......"

But information from this software would really improve my chances instead of just blindly calling CQ.

73, Dave, N4KZ
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W4LGH on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
20 meters is NEVER DEAD for our Spanish speaking friends! You can find them on the upper end of 20meters just about any evening. I been thinking about brushing up on my Spanish so I could work 20m too!

But seriously, VOCAP is good software, and I have been using it for sometime. As said its not perfect, but what is, but it will give you a fairly good idea of whats going on out there.

I also thing that we have gotten used to the fact that 20 usually goes dead around sunset, so we give up trying, and move on down to 80/160m.

Another good Barometer to use for 20 meters is the Maritime Mobile Net on 14.300. This is will you a good idea of whats happning as well. You can listen to them off of their website and comapir to your off air signal. (http://www.mmsn.org/)

Get you a copy of VOACAP ,if you do not have it, and tune in the MMSN. You might be surprised who's out there.

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WA7NCL on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
VOACAP is used to predict long term averages and only uses monthly sunspot numbers. This is great if you want to predict what will happen on average in any given month.

However, most hams who are more casual operators would benefit from viewing this web site:

http://www.sec.noaa.gov/rpc/costello/index.html

This gives you a very short term measurement of the K index and a predictor based on the solar wind. It also gives you the "lead time" on the prediction.

I have found it to be very good to see what conditions will be like today and a few hours from now. It's really great stuff.

In general look for low K index = good propagation. Just add some predicted solar flux numbers to give you an idea of the MUF e voila an instant idea of how the band are and "will be" now.

Beware of looking at the A index (widely reported on WWV and many web sites). It is an average of the K index and lags real time by quite a bit. It's a great rear view mirror if you are interested in just how bad the bands were a few days ago or how big the last solar storm was. But its useless for how things are now.

I would also recommend the beacon feature of VOAprop. The beacons circle the globe every few minutes and have known powers and antenna gains. You can quickly determine how good the prop program is working by listening for a few minutes.

Great stuff for ham radio in the 21st century!
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WB2WIK on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
This is neat, but I usually just find out if there's propagation or not by pinging the ionosphere, using my own station. It doesn't work on the lower bands as I can't generate enough e.r.p. to overcome noise. But on 20 meters and above, it works reliably.

Unfortunately this guideline doesn't indicate nor predict sporadic-E propagation, which is pretty useful on 10m when the m.u.f. is actually quite low.

And as far as I'm concerned, Yes: If nobody transmits, the band is indeed dead. The noise of 1000 receivers isn't very deafening.

WB2WIK/6
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W4VR on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
The version of VOACAP I used back in the early 90's was not very user friendly. It looks like the interface is much better than what it used to be. It seems to me that even when there is propagation I don't hear much on the bands lately. The only time I hear wall-to-wall band occupancy is during a contest. If it were not for the contests the FCC would probably reallocate what we don't use.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AA4LR on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
N4KZ wrote:
"The bands aren't as dead as they sound."

A big AMEN to that.

I think this is one of the big differences between ham radio today and ham radio of a few decades ago.

There have been sunspot lows before, but there certainly seemed to be a lot more DX on 10 and 15m in the evening than in the last couple of years.

A few decades ago, we didn't have worldwide DX spotting networks, or propagation programs in the hands of most hams. Hams weren't so well educated about the intimiate vagarities of the sunspot cycle. We didn't have helioseismological models so we could see sunspots on the opposite side of the sun. If you wanted to find out if a band was open, you had to turn on the radio, tune around, and maybe spend some time sending some CQs.

Today, we check the cluster and if we don't see anything interesting, or if we run propagation programs and the band doesn't look promising, we don't even turn on the radio.

And we are also more knowledgeable about sunspots, so we expect 10m to be dead, 20m to die at sunset, etc -- so we don't even try on those bands.

The bands are certainly a lot more open than people think. But, if we don't turn our radios on, tune around and call CQ, then we won't know.

We definitely don't call CQ as much as in the old days.



 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KE4ZHN on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make a sound? :-)
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.
This past weekend as I scanned the bands with my two Icom 718s in sync I noticed on 40 meters at 7002 and 7010 big pile-ups working dx. Further up on 7018 were two stations in qso for a good 45 minutes on cw. The rest of the band was unused.

Ham radio is no longer ham radio, but dx and contesters. I recommend changing the name of ham radio and Amateur Radio to "Certificate Hunters Club of America".

Isn't this what it all revolves about. To recur in cycles or at periodic intervals.

W6TH.
.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by N4KC on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
AA4LR: you make a good point. If we all rely solely on DX spots and modeled propagation forecasts, we are probably allowing the tail to wag the dog.

I still think VOAProp is an interesting and fun program to use. And gosh knows, I click over to the DX packet cluster most times when I fire up the rig. With limited operating time, I want to see if the predictions are decent or if anything is going on. But I also listen for myself and give some calls, too, when I have the opportunity.

Oh, well, another couple of years and it'll be a moot point for a precious little while. I've heard whispers of 15 being open worldwide 24 hours a day! 10-10 nets wiped out by the Europeans starting their day! Bring it on!

73,

Don N4KC
www.donkeith.com

 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W9OY on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Just put up a 40M vertical and have at it.

73 W9OY
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KV6O on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"but I usually just find out if there's propagation or not by pinging the ionosphere, using my own station."

I don't have enough ERP (yet) to do this, but used to when I would operate at the Stanford station in Palo Alto - W6YX. Monobanders, legal limit, 80M 4 square, beverages - what a station!! It's pretty cool swinging a beam towards Africa, sending a few dits at 1500W and hearing your echo, sometimes along with a long path dit! That was confirmation that it was open!

Propagation prediction software? We don’t need no stinkin’ propagation predication software!

KV6O
Steve
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by N0AH on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I often have been impressed with computer software for propagation. Cool graphics and it is getting more reliable. But as we know..............

I want to take this moment and express and real live, true, 100% real event I monitored on 20 meters PSK31 today. A brand new extra, KI4PMA at 19:15Z, whose upgrade went through today, was working a DX station. The station asked him if he could QSL via the buro and he typed back he didn't what that meant.

Now it is nothing against this new ham. But to all of you that complained code was unfair and kept many qualified op's out of the extra class catagory, hope you enjoy all the QRM. How could anyone not know what QSL via the buro mean? You can get on PSK31 but you can't understand the most basics of ham lingo-

Just one sample of an important missing building block to maintain our hobby.

Band's not dead, it's just getting watered downed some more.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by ST2NH on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
keep the fun , put pc away
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KE6I on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>But to all of you that complained code was unfair and
>kept many qualified op's out of the extra class
>catagory, hope you enjoy all the QRM.

I wouldn't mind more people to talk to on HF. In can be just dead sometimes on the west coast and would be nice to have more CQ's being called and faster answers to CQ's.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KG6WLS on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Next horse please!
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KC5CQD on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I have always loved ten meters. Although this may be a subjective opinion; I've always thought that the audio quality of ten meters was awesome. Being primarily a CW operator, ten meters has always been the band in which I preferred SSB.

I have made many DX contacts via ten meters but I always enjoyed the late evenings when the band quieted down. Then the locals(within 100 miles) would take over and we would chew the fat until the wee hours.

I miss those days.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by ONAIR on February 28, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
It was the same on CB in the late '60s and '70s. You'd have a bunch of regular locals chewing the fat into the wee hours nightly! (at least in the NYC area). Of course you'd have your CB clowns and space cadets, but even on that band there were some interesting QSOs. Many of them eventually upgraded to the HAM bands, as a great number of us HAMS were former CBers.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AD5FD on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
how cool...

now we need a version to predict conds for 6 meters and es!

also can it be extrapolated to google earth in kml files? i know i know beggars cant be choosers!
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AB3CX on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I'm working nice DX every day here at the bottom of the sunspot cycle on 40, 30, 20, 17M using an R7 vertical and 200 watts. There are no days when the bands are "dead". QSOs in the evenings and mornings into the Australia and Oceana are still routine. Europe every day. What gives? Contest weekends bring out the big guns with beams, 1.5 KW+++, and even with poor conditions, 15M will be usable for many hours. Put on the earphones, guys. Rechek those antennas and feedlines.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by K8YZK on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
From what little time I played with it after installing it, looks ok. I will still get on and call cq even if the bands are dead especially 10/6 meters as you never know when they will open.

Now to go off subject, why is it that those the cry about no cw testing anymore, always have to make comments about how it is the downfall of ham radio etc.

It is done and over, so get a life and get over it. CW is not dead, it is just not a requirement for a license in the US or anywhere. If you have a complaint then write your congressmen and see how far you get with it. As far as CW I hear as much now if not more, since 2/23/07.

Things change

Kurt
K8YZK
20wpm Extra
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KE6I on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>QSOs in the evenings and mornings into the Australia and
>Oceana are still routine. Europe every day. What gives?

Not all of the USA is like the east or southeast on HF. If you work for a living turn on radios in the evening there's not a lot going on. Getting back to the topic, run voaprop and set to San Francisco, and then set Antenna to Medium and UTC to about 3AM or 4AM -- 7-8PM local time.

The new rules have already put in some more bodies on 40meter psk31 -- which I see as a good thing. QRM? Bring it on. Heh.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WA5LOU on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Thank for the GREAT report. And, yes! We need to get on and transmit more on these bands. We cannot give up so easy. Many times they are open and we hear no one, because no one is transmitting. Thanks again for the report on this system. 73
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WA1RNE on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

Don;

Nice article, thanks for sharing a very useful tool.

FYI, exact station coordinates are listed on QRZ.com's call sign look-up, just hit the "details" link.



Steve, just curious:

Can you explain exactly how you check propagation by "pinging the ionosphere, using my own station."?


....WA1RNE
 
Why don't upper HF bands have calling frequencies?  
by AG4DG on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
At least the VHF/UHF bands have calling frequencies. If the band is empty, you call CQ at the calling frequency. This also means you can just listen at the calling frequency and not wonder if you need to QSY within the band.

Why don't we have calling frequencies on 10m, 15m, 20m, etc?
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WB2WIK on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead? Reply
by WA1RNE on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Steve, just curious:
Can you explain exactly how you check propagation by "pinging the ionosphere, using my own station."?
....WA1RNE<

::Sure. All it takes, usually, is power, a beam and a fairly quiet band. If you use no AGC and fast QSK, find a clear frequency, and send a high-powered "dit." Wait about anywhere from 30 to 200 milliseconds or so to see if you hear it come back. A very short returned ping is usually backscatter; a long delayed returned ping imples a much longer trip, like all the way around the world. This is easiest to make happen and to hear during gray line: Aim your beam along the gray line when it's directly overhead; not unusual for the signal to make the 25,000 mi+ trip (+ because it has to bounce off the ionosphere, the earth, the ionosphere, the earth, etc, and the F-layer height can be a few hundred miles) along the line. 100W and a dipole usually won't cut it, but 1500W and a decent beam often does.

If you have very fast QSK and no AGC (and good ears), you can figure out where the ionosphere is most reflective for you at any given moment by trying different beam headings and noting the strength of the ping.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Why don't upper HF bands have calling frequenc  
by KE6I on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Isn't 28.400 is sort of the unofficial 10 meter ssb calling frequency? I'm not sure what the calling frequency for 20 and 15 meters would be, but I kind of like the idea -- for example with calls from California to Hawaii where the software shows propagation but when I don't hear anything.
 
RE: Why don't upper HF bands have calling frequenc  
by WB2WIK on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Calling frequencies for CW or SSB on HF have been tried many times and always "failed" because global propagation, all of which is constantly changing, simply doesn't lend itself well to this. Any frequency, including the 2000 frequencies where you currently don't hear anyone at all, is in use at any given time.

This is why, when I call, "Is this frequency in use?" almost anywhere on a band like 20 meters -- after listening a while and not hearing anybody on that frequency -- the answer is nearly always, "Yes! It is, thanks." Just because I didn't hear any activity when I listened doesn't mean there wasn't any.

A 10m calling frequency for when the band is absolutely guaranteed to not be open, so it might be useful for tropo contacts, seems like it should work okay. But as soon as the band opens, that would all go out the window, and the QRM problem would surface once again.

WB2WIK/6
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by G0GQK on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
The software looks impressive but the problem will still remain. You might see that there is, or could be a propagation path to Europe but if there aren't any contacts at the other end, what makes the situation any different ?

I regularly call CQ on what appears to be a dead band, but it isn't dead, its just that sometimes there isn't anybody there, even listening. If they were listening they would hear me wouldn't they ? Very often a band which sounds dead can reveal a contact 6,000 miles away, but the QSO's have to be quick because the band will be suffering bad QSB and the contact can vanish into the ether and be gone for ever after two minutes.

Perhaps this phenomena of nobody calling CQ and everybody listening is an American thing because in Europe there are people always calling CQ. But I did notice years ago that most US amateurs didn't call CQ they just responded to European CQ calls.

During the last few days despite the por conditions I made a contact on PSK with Siberia, followed 2 minutes later by a contact in WV and that was followed by another contact into northern Japan. Although he wasn't audible in the UK I saw a Russian station in contact with a VK4, and no fancy antenna in my shack, just an R5 and 30 watts.

So, its nice to have some software that will tell you where to point but that's no substitute for just sitting in front of the rig and doing what real radio amateurs do, put out some CQ calls and find out who's about !

And something else, if you've been around for any length of time you ought to be able to tell from the sound of the band whether its dead or not. That's a radio amateur skill you learn when you've been a short wave listener for a few years.

Mel G0GQK
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by N6AJR on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
as a modest contester I know the true answer.



the bands start closed, then all of the thousands of contesters get on calling cq contest, and all the rf heats up the ionosphere which makes it very reflective and the the band opens.....:)

it is not the assumed fact that the band is open, and no one is on, that would be silly...


( spoken with tongue firmly in cheek)
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WA1RNE on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Sure. All it takes, usually, is power, a beam and a fairly quiet band. If you use no AGC and fast QSK, find a clear frequency, and send a high-powered "dit."


>> ....and this Amateur OTH works "?" percentage of the time? You're pulling my leg, right?


..WA1RNE
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.
Chris,

Yes WIK, Steve, is joshing you Chris as you need a lot of power and one helluva fast recovery time on the receiver.

W6TH.
.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

When I worked low frequency radar called backscatter, we ran one megawatt power output to Rhombic antennas and used Racal receivers modified for the fast recovery time. The pulse rate was 10 and we could see by scope and recording on film the salient echo when a missile was launched in Keil Russia.

Also to scan and use the MUF. It took money to see and hear that ping that was mentioned.
.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KX8N on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make a sound? :-) "

Exactly. It depends on your definition of "dead". If by "dead" you mean that there is no propagation, then looks can be deceiving. If by "dead" you mean that you flip the radio on and don't hear any signals as you tune around, then yeah, many bands are dead quite often.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AB7JK on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I downloaded the software and it doesn't do anything. Another piece of worthless crap - I know it's free but my time is worth something.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by N5LX on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
AB7JK

"I downloaded the software and it doesn't do anything. Another piece of worthless crap - I know it's free but my time is worth something. "


Wow -- you're 1000% right -- it works fine for EVERYONE else but you so therefore, it can't be YOUR fault but has to be that the software sucks!!!



 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?

No, all hams and CB'ers are tuned to the DX cluster.

.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WB2WIK on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead? Reply
by WA1RNE on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

"Sure. All it takes, usually, is power, a beam and a fairly quiet band. If you use no AGC and fast QSK, find a clear frequency, and send a high-powered "dit."

>> ....and this Amateur OTH works "?" percentage of the time? You're pulling my leg, right?
..WA1RNE<

::Yes, it works. Near sunspot cycle peaks, on the bands 20m and above (to the m.u.f.), it works reliably and thousands of hams all over the world do this, and have for many years. Right now, I can make it work on 20m and 17m pretty often. Anyone who says this *doesn't* work probably never ran high power to beam antennas, or just never thought to try it. From "big" stations (like the big M/M contest stations I've operated from often, where we have stacked beams on each bands), we can hear the "ping" even without sending a dit on CW...all it takes is clicking the PTT on the mike *CLICK* and then the "click" echo. You need to have the AGC *off* unless the echo is a long one.

I've heard Tom W8JI say he can do this even on the lower frequency bands, but then he can create a lot more e.r.p. down there than I can.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by PLANKEYE on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I believe this is a rather simple matter made hugely complex. Get on the air and call CQ!! If you hear someone calling CQ answer them. We don't need computers, we need US!! Anyone get this? God Bless!!

PLANKEYE
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

all it takes is clicking the PTT on the mike *CLICK* and then the "click" echo. You need to have the AGC *off* unless the echo is a long one.
................................................

On single sideband suppressed carrier?

Clicking the PTT on the mike?

.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

What is being heard is not an echo, but your own signal going around the world and returning to you in one case. In another case it could be your signal returning to you from up above your ham location and not from around the world. Happens quite often on 20 meters even with 100 watts.

I have had this happen many times through my ham days especially using a nvis, (Near Vertical Incidence Skywave Antenna).

.:
 
Call CQ  
by KF6IIU on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I'm an IT professional and it's just easier to call CQ than install all that stuff. That's what I do all week for a living and the last thing I want to do in my shack is fiddle with software.

APRS is about as fiddly as I can stand, occasionally some digital modes pn HF if there's no one within 5 Khz with their compression on and audio gain turned up to 11, or bitching about how I'm 17 Hz off frequqnecy. Don't look for me on LoTW either.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WB2WIK on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead? Reply
by W6TH on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

all it takes is clicking the PTT on the mike *CLICK* and then the "click" echo. You need to have the AGC *off* unless the echo is a long one.
................................................

On single sideband suppressed carrier?

Clicking the PTT on the mike?<

::Yep, clicking the PTT on the mike. Under normal operating condx, the mike gain is up high enough that the noise generated by the PTT switch makes a "click" that modulates the rig at full power for a brief moment; that's all it takes. For stations who are not using VOX or footswitches, but are using hand mikes or desk mikes, you will hear this on about 99% of all SSB signals when they begin a transmission.

-WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Call CQ  
by KF6IIU on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Sheesh, I'm turning into a crabby old hack. I'll have to put up a monobander for 75m phone.

I didn't mean to detract from G4ILO's accomplishment. But it's based on VOACAP, and the last time I tried fiddling with VOACAP - well I'm a ham not a computer operator.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WB2WIK on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
And Vito, it is really an echo, by the definition of the word.

It is indeed your own signal, either bounced back by the ionosphere and producing a very short delay (backscatter), or bouncing off the ionosphere and the earth several times to make a trip around the world, which can take >150 mS. However it's propagated, it creates an "echo" because it's a reproduction of the original signal, occurring a bit later so the audible result is an echo.

I can hear my own backscatter signal very often, but not with 100W.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Call CQ  
by W6TH on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

Steve WB2WIK/6
Echo:

In Electronics. A reflected wave received by a radio or radar.

Repetition of a sound by reflection of sound waves from a surface.
......................................................

What you have been talking about is not a reflective wave, but a return of your primary transmitted RF signal detected and received on your own receiver after a limited time.

Again I mention "echo" and read carefully:

In Electronics. "A reflected wave" received by a radio or radar. (A Single Reflected Wave Steve).

.:
 
RE: Call CQ  
by WB2WIK on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
It's still an echo:

"Def. An echo can be explained as a wave that has been reflected by a discontinuity in the propagation medium, and returns with sufficient magnitude and delay to be perceived." -Reference Data for Radio Engineers, 7th Ed.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

Ok, thanks. Now I know where you get all your electronic information from. Not what you yourself have learned from the past. Called show and tell.

.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by NB3O on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"Def. An echo can be explained as a wave that has been reflected by a discontinuity in the propagation medium, and returns with sufficient magnitude and delay to be perceived."
Sounds good to me. At least this is what I thought was happening when I was testing some chirp sounders a few years back.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by N0XMZ on March 2, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Cool software. I just downloaded it tonight and I like it. Thanks! I'll be thanking G4ILO as well.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KC8VWM on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
If Nobody Transmits…Is the Band Dead?


No, it just means you are frantically turning your VFO without turning the power switch on.

(...I gotta replace that bulb someday)

 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W2EV on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
It would be cool if the software could grab information from known TX/RX stations and overlay the "real" conditions with the "calculated" conditions, too.

The building-blocks are already in place. See:
http://www.PropNET.org
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

NB3O

"Def. An echo can be explained as a wave that has been reflected by a discontinuity in the propagation medium, and returns with sufficient magnitude and delay to be perceived.

(reflected by a discontinuity in the propagation medium,)


This is saying the same as: In Electronics. A reflected wave received by a radio or radar. ((A Single Reflected Wave)).

................not multi hops....................
.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.

NB30

Breaking it down for you to understand.

((returns with sufficient magnitude and delay to be perceived)).

Which means to be seen with the eye or being heard.

.:A single reflection:.

.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W6TH on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.
NB3O, Now read from the beginning.

RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead? Reply
by WB2WIK on March 1, 2007
>If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead? Reply
by WA1RNE on March 1, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Steve, just curious:
Can you explain exactly how you check propagation by "pinging the ionosphere, using my own station."?
....WA1RNE<

::Sure. All it takes, usually, is power, a beam and a fairly quiet band. If you use no AGC and fast QSK, find a clear frequency, and send a high-powered "dit." Wait about anywhere from 30 to 200 milliseconds or so to see if you hear it come back. A very short returned ping is usually backscatter; a long delayed returned ping imples a much longer trip, like all the way around the world. This is easiest to make happen and to hear during gray line: Aim your beam along the gray line when it's directly overhead; not unusual for the signal to make the 25,000 mi+ trip (+ because it has to bounce off the ionosphere, the earth, the ionosphere, the earth, etc, and the F-layer height can be a few hundred miles) along the line. 100W and a dipole usually won't cut it, but 1500W and a decent beam often does.

If you have very fast QSK and no AGC (and good ears), you can figure out where the ionosphere is most reflective for you at any given moment by trying different beam headings and noting the strength of the ping.

WB2WIK/6

You noticed he changed the subject to a echo and not propagation as originally stated.

.:
 
RE: No Need For VOACAP  
by W6TH on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
.The proper way to propagate:

To check for a propagation path do the following:.......Take your transmitter even a 100 watt transmitter and run it at the maximum usable frequency and the use a pulse repetition rate (prr) of 10 pulses per second which means 10 pulses in one second or 0.1 seconds or one tenth of a second. Your receiver will be hooked directly to the transmitting antenna by a T/R switch, whereby the receiver is fully on. A scope hooked into the "IF" stage of the receiver to see the multi-hops. Use the calibrated scope for the multi-hops to show the propagation path.

Physics. The act or process of propagating, especially the process by which a disturbance, such as the motion of electromagnetic or sound waves, is transmitted through a medium such as air or water.

W6TH
.:
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by WC4R on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
WOW! Very nice. Great job. I'm impressed. Very user friendly and down right useful.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KD6TVH on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
VOACap and HamCap are nice pieces of software and are fun to play "what if I had..." with. Also you can set the condx to solar max and drool over the S/N ratios to far-off lands.

As for the bands being dead, I would tend to disagree. With my low dipole, 40 meters is open to much of the United States, and I can hear Europe and South America just about every night.

A few weeks back, I was listening to the Caribbean big guns running stations on 15 meters until 0100z. 20m didn't fall apart until 0230z. All this with 20 feet of wire on my hotel balcony.

I just made a 400 mile QSO today on 40m with the same 20 feet of wire and received a 569 running 5 watts. I just called CQ until somebody answered.

At my club station, I worked a mid-week, 2k mile QSO on 20 meters with 100 watts and an R7 around 1700z. The other guy was mobile with a screwdriver. I called CQ and he answered. I got a 5NN from him.

So I don't know what people are talking about.

I really wish more people would use 30 meters. I need to start CQn there.
 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KF6HCD on March 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Good one! Thanks for that. Now I know when to try for DX on 10M and when to just rag chew with the locals. New to HF, I see this as a great tool. Nice interface, and speedy response. A real winner. Cheers and 73.
Ken.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AH6RR on March 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Well by working the ARRL DX Phone contest this weekend the bands were alive with many signals from around the world. So the bands are not dead just nobody is talking on them. My friend KH7DX and myself have been working DX for the last 2 months on 20 during grayline almost everyday. I have been using VOAProp for 4 months and find it most a most excellent
tool. Come on and quit gripping about the bands being dead get on and do some calling you'll be stunned at the DX you work. I did work the East Coast of the Mainland via Long Path during the contest that's around 20k miles who said the bands are dead. This is the bottom of the cycle?

73 and Good DX
Roland AH6RR
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AG4DG on March 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
How can 10m open up if the spacew.com real-time MUF map shows the MUF to be 15-25 MHz? There must be something other than the F2 layer at work.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by KE6I on March 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe the MUF has to be high enough at the point where the reflection occurs -- not where you transmit from.

I've kind of wondered this myself also, and this is what I guess, though I'm not sure. I am interested in stirring up a little bit of discussion about this if anyone has a better answer.
 
RE: If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by W4LGH on March 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Well they certainly weren't DEAD this past Contest Weekend!! Have always found it funny that the bands always seem to be open on Contest weekends!

20 meters was wide open...
15 meters was doing fairly well
10 meters was even open to the north and south.

40 was pretty bad.


73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

 
If Nobody Transmits...Is the Band Dead?  
by AB7JK on March 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Has anyone been able to get this software to work. All I get is a map of the world part day part night but none of the buttons work. When I try to close the program I get a message "program not responding"??
 
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