|
New to Ham Radio?
My Profile
Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Speak Out
Strays
Survey Question
Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation
Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers
Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
from
Southgate Amateur Radio Club
on
March 20, 2007
Website:
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/march2007/bpl_noise_floor.htm
View comments about this article!
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
See the full story here:
LINK
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by KG4RUL on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
An interesting premise. Now, how can I get the lightning to strike just when I want it to???
Dennis KG4RUL
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W8JI on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
There is no question at all BPL will raise the noise floor all over the world if commonly installed in major areas, not just where it is installed.
Noise propagates and adds. So many small sources that seem to die off in a short distance still go on and on forever and eventually add with other noise sources to increase ambient noise all over the world.
That's just the way it works.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W9WHE-II on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
You needen't worry about BPL raising the noise floor.
rrl has determined that BPL is a "flawed technology" that "won't work". So...there is nothing to worry about.
Now, you do believe arrl, now don't you?
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by STRAIGHTKEY on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Gods knows there had to be some way to tie an ARRL hatin' post into this article....
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by WA1RNE on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
This would mean that all mains power devices including BPL equipment would have ceased to operate and therefore ceased to emit any contributory radio frequency noise.
The key conclusion from this report is that the initial impact of BPL emission levels are understated
Unfortunately, the key conclusion will never be entirely accurate as the myriad of computers (and other clock referenced devices) switching power supplies, motors, SCR controlled devices, etc., etc. were also taken out of the picture and their effect on and off the grid isn't quantified versus just BPL on and off the grid.
Owen, VK1OD seems like a pretty competent guy and has done some good work evaluating and sizing the problem. But as I've indicated before on this forum, I wonder if he's taking consumer devices into account like Plasma TV's? Many of these TV's put out horrendous amounts of EMI and as well, many were likely turned off in addition to BPL and other noise sources.
I recently performed a radiated interference test on my neighbor's Samsung 42" EDTV and submitted the results to the FCC OET.
Never mind the 20 over S9 EMI on 80/75 meters measured at 54 meters from the source, this TV obliterates 2 of the strongest Boston area AM broadcast stations when within 30 feet of the TV. The interference from these devices starts from AM broadcast, (probably much lower) and runs at least into the 20 meter band. Given that I'm hearing many other similar noise "signatures" on the band when this TV is off, the problem is growing and in the near future could likely dwarf BPL in terms of interference potential .
...WA1RNE
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by K0RFD on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
OK, we've heard from the anti-ARRL a-holes (well, one of them anyway).
How long before Chippie tells us that BPL doesn't contribute to the noise floor at all and that we're all Luddites for even worrying about it? Or, barring that, finds a way to make this whole thread all about himself?
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W6RJC on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
You/we may not agree, but at least Chip will offer, in his own special way, intelligent input. Others will stuff their credibility with poorly constructed, mispelled, knee jerk responses. Back on topic, an interesting article worthy of consideration.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by N0XMZ on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"Gods knows there had to be some way to tie an ARRL hatin' post into this article...."
It happens every time BPL is mentioned here. The usual suspects come along and sing the praises of BPL and condemn the league for trying to do something about it. Oh well. Life goes on.
Back on topic.
What this group did is the right thing and should be done everywhere BPL is going to be deployed. Our blood-sucking electric company TXU is supposed to be rolling out BPL in my area. I'm currently working on a way to document the noise floor on the bands so I can have a baseline for comparison for when/if the BPL pollution comes along. I only say "if" because there may be ways to deploy BPL without interfering with the ham bands but that simply requires that they use unpopulated freqs (like low VHF). Even still, they're going to pollute some spectrum somewhere.
What continues to amaze me is that certain people (usually politicians) push for BPL but the public generally doesn't even want it. The private sector is already giving us what we want, and that is in the form of cable, DSL, fiber, & wireless. As laptops continue to fall in price, and more and more people access the web via PDAs and cellphones, the carriers will continue to migrate to the portable formats which are *wireless*.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by STRAIGHTKEY on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"You/we may not agree, but at least Chip will offer, in his own special way, intelligent input"
Darn, there goes another keyboard. That will teach me to not drink coffee again while reading eham :-)
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by N7UQA on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Jonathan said:
'You needen't worry about BPL raising the noise floor. rrl has determined that BPL is a "flawed technology" that "won't work". So...there is nothing to worry about.'
Jonathan, why don't you just STFU. Give yourself an education in RF engineering and transmission line technology and give the way beyond tiresome ARRL bashing a rest, I'm not the only one who apparently tires of it. Both you and Chip are the ones kidding yourself, why should one have to wait for 'market forces' to kill off a technology that shouldn't have gotten off the ground in the first place.
There is NOTHING broadband about BPL, BPL is a half-ass engineering attempt to bring Internet access. The best BPL has been able to provide is around 1-2 M/bit performance at best (conditions that will NEVER be realized in real world terms).
Broadband used to mean 45 M/bit synchronous. The telcos later got the FCC to redefine 'broadband' as 200 k/bit asynchronous; or around 225 times slower, since they failed on their '45 M/bit fiber to 80% of US households by 2006' promise (that we are STILL getting charged I mean gouged for by the way). The reason for this was obvious, to falsely claim that the US is making progress on broadband deployment.
We now have BPL because of dim witted FCC commissioners who have no experience in RF design or electronics, and believe any smoke and mirror presentation presented to them. If BPL was deployed in your area Jonathan I'm sure you would be singing a different tune. I have enough electronics and RF engineering knowledge to know just how much interference could be radiated from purposely coupling ODMF signals on power wires.
In the mean time, telcos have done NOTHING but cherry pick their deployments ( the best deployments I have heard to date is 30 M/bit down and 2 M/bit up), BPL will do nothing but offer something faster than dial up. Nothing is said about the interference ingress and egress problems of BPL. I'm sure some of the people who are BPL subscribers would be giving the service 'glowing' reports.
Craig - N7UQA
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W6RJC on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
There was a qualifier .. "in his own special way." :-)
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
That will teach me to not drink coffee again while reading eham :-) ---chicken poster called 'straight'key
-----------------
Methinks it's Irish coffee now yez drinkin', a wee bit afteer Sain Padees. Shurele yez misst it , wat the peerade. I tinkin' I not. Be a fine, fine day it waz! Now movin yerself along!
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by STRAIGHTKEY on March 20, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Chip, I'm now a guitar shredder like you. I rented one of those tree shredders today. Darn thing shreds a guitar in like two seconds. Makes a nice mulch. It gets costly though. We should get together and jam sometime.
|
| |
|
RE: N7UQA's ill-mannered arrogance
|
|
|
by W9WHE-II on March 21, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
N7UQA demonstrates why people look down their noses at hams and why hams have so little influence. Craig writes:
1) "Jonathan, why don't you just STFU"
The mark of a true gentleman, for sure. Anybody that disagrees, must be silenced. And if you point out the fact that arrl is WRONG, you are just an idiot.
2) "There is NOTHING broadband about BPL, BPL is a half-ass engineering attempt to bring Internet access.
Obviously, Craig knows more then ALL of the engineers at Motorola, IBM, Matshusta, and all of the other telecom companies that are involved in BPL. Obviously, everybody but Craig is stupid.
Craig's lll-mannered arrogance aside, and contrary to what arrl falsely asserted, BPL works. AT LEAST 5,000 people now get their internet service over power lines. (BPL). Don't you just hate it when the FACTS get in the way of your opinion Craig?
If you want to know why FCC ignores arrl's "demands" and other blatherings, its improper PERSONAL insults of FCC commissioners, Ed's poorly documented "propiganda" video and continued denial of the reality that BPL works. Add to that ill-mannered arrogance and you have a recipie for ham irrelevence.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W9WHE-II on March 21, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"why should one have to wait for 'market forces' to kill off a technology that shouldn't have gotten off the ground in the first place"
Uhhhh..the law.
This is the USA, not Iran.
Congress gave FCC the authority in 1934, and FCC makes the call. Not you. Not arrl. So, we all hope that BPL will die an economic death.
|
| |
|
RE: N7UQA's ill-mannered arrogance
|
|
|
by KB1HTW on March 21, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
FYI - there's two definitions of broadband.
The original technical definition is for a signal containing energy over a "broad" frequency spectrum range. Just like the definition for High Frequency has changed since the early days of radio, so has what general meaning for broadband.
Then about 30 years or so ago, as telecom began moving in earnest into the modern era - just as the divestiture of AT&T was looming, the term "broadband" in the telecom market meant any digital service at a DS-1 rate (1.536 Mb/s) or better. And to the "consumer", even DS-1 was confused with T-1, and now to the average person, they mean the same thing, even thought T-1 digital span lines essentially no longer exist.
Secondly, I think it's safe to say that BPL so far has been a dismal market failure, and the power companies are looking to the FCC for a little government help. 5000 paying customers? How does that compare to Comcast's millions? The have so many that they are essentially being forced to migrate their OSS network to IPv6 because they're running out of IPv4 addresses.
Personally, I think the power companies missed the boat. The technology wasn't ready during the Internet boom, and now they're trying to convince shareholders that the investment is worth it. Well, it is worth it if they're talking about bringing SCADA into the modern era, but the investment needed to allow them to deploy broadband as a profit-making service to new customers - well, I'd like to see their homework on how they calculate the ROI. I think it will mean a loss for the shareholders. The only possible way they can make money is to lease capacity to companies with the expertise in selling bandwidth to customers. And the ones with the expertise currently have infrastructure - they don't need that of the power companies...
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 21, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Hey hey hey!
Ham radio= instant MBA!
Sign up today! Drive those pesky BPL investors away!
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 21, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
There's career opportunities for those who
M-E-A-S-U-R-E!
Come to The Tazman Foundation for Precision Measurement!
Join us in one of the remotest location on the planet where the effort to SAVE HAM RADIO from the e-v-i-l BPL dust devil has wings!
Next effort: KEEP LORD HOWE ISLAND BPL FREE!
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by STRAIGHTKEY on March 21, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
These hams must have been using MFJ (mighty fine junk) equipment, that's why they didn't hear any noise. But of course, since the power was off, how could they make any measurements anyway????!!!!??? I had a knob come off a MFJ tuner back in 1982 so all their equipment sucks.
The hams shouldn't be complaining about bpl, they should buy huge billboards that say "wifi rocks, bpl sux!!" They should stop whining about bpl and convince the world to use wifi instead. We're a bunch of whiny sissies if we can't handle s9+20 noise on every band.
The ARRL created the lightning strike that took out the power to get more people stirred up. All they want is people to donate more money to their retirement fund and sell more handbooks that aren't written for amateurs anymore.
The ARRL invented the whole bpl threat. They should be working to outlaw vacuum cleaners. That's the real threat to ham radio. Have you ever tried to have a QSO when your wife is vacuuming? You can't even think straight with all that noise. Someone told me ARRL holds stock in Hoover, that's why they don't go after vacuum cleaners.
I'm right because I typed all of this and arrl and mfj are evil. No one else is qualified to speak about this. You may all now bend down and worship me.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by K4JF on March 23, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"contrary to what arrl falsely asserted, BPL works. AT LEAST 5,000 people now get their internet service over power lines. (BPL). "
The ARRL never said BPL didn't work, so there was no false assertion.
And asbestos WORKS as an excellent insulator. Dioxins WORK as a transformer coolant. Petroleum solvents do an excellent job of cleaning machinery, especially when sprayed outside.
BUT - they are pollutants, exactly as BPL is a pollutant. The fact that they work is irrelevant to this discussion. It IS flawed technology. The flaw may not be in the operation, but it is definitely in the side effects.
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 25, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I would personally welcome a BPL installation here in my hometown. Be good to have some competition for those internet dollars!
Best of luck to the BPL folks.
73,
Chip W1YW
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by VK6FVEW on March 26, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Here is a youtube video made by VK7TW
http://www.eham.net/forums/post/Articles/140417
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 26, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Doh!
That's the perfect venue for this propaganda--along with Gumby cartoons, and Hillary Clinton '1984'.
I am not so easily misled OM.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by VK6FVEW on March 26, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
What BPL company are you working for?
Or are you just a VHF and above user?
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 26, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Actually OM, I am an experienced old man with no such affiliations. You just have to accept that not every ham agrees with your quest.
This recent trend of hams being coerced to take sides on technology issues is a new and distasteful one-and, at least in the States--contrary to the mission of the amateur radio service.
I'm sure Grote Reber would have agreed...
73,
Chip W1YW
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by VK6FVEW on March 26, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
It's not a quest. It's black and white, BPL causes interference to the HF bands.
There is overwhelming evidence to support it. How can you not see that?
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W9WHE-II on March 26, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KJ4F writes:
"The ARRL never said BPL didn't work....".
NOT accurate.
arrl spokespeople stated that BPL was a "flawed technology" that "won't work".
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by AE6RO on March 26, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
If people don't want to see or hear something then it isn't there. George Orwell called this remarkable trait "saving stupidity."
I've heard BPL also during a test a few summers ago. The BPL racket traveled 100 miles north from San Diego, CA just so I could hear it.
It's real, alright. I'm hoping that more influential people (read "government HF users") will be annoyed enough to get rid of it once and for all.
If not I can always listen to jazz on satellite radio. Thanks for the Youtube video, it was very informative regarding BPL noise. 73 AE6RO
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 27, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AE6RO--
You've made these assertions about skywave and BPL before.
I am calling you either a liar--or misinformed.
Either provide compelling evidence that microwatts of BPL power were detected by you 100 miles away at HF or shut up.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by AE6RO on March 27, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
W1YW: Yes, I have stated that I heard a BPL test which took place in San Diego area that propagated up here (about 100 miles.)
I was informed by email reflector when the test would take place. I heerd it and reported to the reflector what I heard a few minutes later. Shortly thereafter the noise stopped.
What kind of proof would convert you to the right way of thinking? If the Youtube video didn't convince you then nothing will. Even if you hear it yourself you won't believe it, 'cuz you don't want to.
On top of that, I'll bet you'd rather play a synthesizer than a guitar. Bleehhh! 73 anyway, AE6RO
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by AE6RO on March 27, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Chip, regarding propagation of "microwatts of BPL power" up here it is no big deal.
First off, it's gotta be more than a few microwatts to service the users because the impedance will be very low.
Second, you should read an Absolutely Brilliant article on QRP entitled, "Working the World on 5 Milliwatts." 73 Magazine, November 1990. The gentleman depicted therein used a keyed computer clock oscillator to literally "work the world."
But I fear you will only believe in BPL interference when it comes out of your clock radio.
73 AE6RO
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 28, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AE6RO--
Asserted but not shown. IMO you are either a liar or misinformed.
Put the evidence up on YouTube.
And, BTW, a mW is 1000 microwatts; there is a ---30 db-- difference.
BPL uses many --micro--watts, not many --milli--watts.
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 28, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
..and, BTW AE6RO--
a CW signal is essentially monochromatic, so there is hardly any relevants to comparing milliwatts of CW to microwatts of BPL--which is spread out over a very large bandwidth.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by AE6RO on March 28, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
W1YW: Tell you what. We'll see what will happen in the fullness of time.
BPL has to use lots more than microwatts to propagate down the powerline because the input impedance is very low. Thank you for pointing out that BPL is a wide-spectrum polluter.
But I don't really care. If the technical and financial hurdles don't stop it then maybe you'll hear it coming out of your solid-state Fender guitar amp. Should make some interesting fuzz possibilities.
73 AE6RO
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 28, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
What you SHOULD care about is the integrity of the amateur radio service.
Your failure to back up your proposterous claims does not bode well for the service. My educated opinion.
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 28, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I don't have any Fender amps.
More falsehoods.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by AE6RO on March 28, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Well whatever kind of guitar amp you have it will really SHRED when the BPL racket starts blasting in.
If it gets too loud one can figuratively stick their head in the sand and pretend it's Mozart. Fraternally yours, AE6RO
|
| |
|
VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W1YW on March 28, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Provide us with ANY evidence that BPL has caused a guitar amplifier to become unusable.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by W9WHE-II on March 29, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Come on!
EVERYBODY knows that BPL causes EVERYTHING to become TOTALLY unstable.
Its beyond dispute, just like Al Gore's global warming hoax. Don't you know that BPL is the root of ALL evil, including Al Queda? Why, BPL is responsible for genocide in darfur!
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by AE6RO on March 29, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
It's not that it will make your Amplifier unstable, but the BPL noise will ride in through the amp's power supply and modulate your shredding.
I guess we'll find out if and when it becomes a reality.
Fraternally yours, AE6RO
|
| |
|
RE: N7UQA's ill-mannered arrogance
|
|
|
by K1DA on March 30, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
5000 people. An economic dynamo. Gee, 5000 people in my area get service over one (1) wifi system and
you can actually use it with a laptop in the backyard. Can't WAIT for more BPL progress.
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by K8MHZ on March 30, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"I don't have any Fender amps."
Marshalls? Mesa-Boogies? Peaveys? Vox? (Vox was good enough for the Beatles)
|
| |
|
RE: VK7 BPL Noise Floor Report Released:
|
|
|
by K8MHZ on March 30, 2007
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AE6RO,
My thoughts are that if propagation was such that you could receive a micro watt signal the cable radiating it would easily be able to receive a much larger signal from your radio. At 100 watts an amateur signal should disrupt the BPL signal.
I don't know that to be for sure the case, but it would seem to me that someone would be aware of the possibility.
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to discussions on this article.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Related News & Articles
ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brief over BPL:
Aurora Pulls The Plug on BPL:
IBM Teams Up with BPL Provider to Offer Service in Seven States:
FCC Releases Redacted BPL Case Studies After ARRL FOIA Request:
Might RST be Too Vague?
Other News Articles
New Amateur Radio Web Site Launches:
Announcing Railroad Depots on the Air:
Rowley Shears, G8KW (SK):
Cuba Facilitates Equipment to Amateur Radio Operators:
ARNewsline # 1684 -- Nov. 20 2009:
|
|
|
