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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
Steve Katz (WB2WIK)
on
June 4, 2007
View comments about this article!
Okay, Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten Meters!
Everybody knows, but here it is
Early this year (2007), a large number of “no code Tech” licensees were granted privileges on the ten meter band, using the frequency allocations and restrictions previously granted to Novices and Tech+ licensees; also, since the elimination of the Element 1 code test requirement for amateurs in the U.S., a lot of General class licenses have been issued, both as upgrades for previous Techs and also to new hams.
This is pretty much what everyone figured would happen, and it did!
I'll call all the new hams, as well as all the recent upgrades, “Newbies.” Now, some have been licensed 20+ years and just upgraded because the code element was dropped. So, they're not really “newbies” as hams, but they do have new privileges and may be operating bands they never used before. So, they're sorta new.
Put this together with the fact that the ten meter amateur band is experiencing almost daily Sporadic-E ionospheric propagation, so many “newbies” are experiencing their first real opportunity to work “skip” on the ham bands, and it's pretty exciting stuff. The E season peaks around the Summer Solstice (June 21), with a smaller peak around the Winter Solstice (December 22), and the summer E season is often quite long, from early May through late July. It's already happening.
As I write this on May 22, 2007, the ten meter band was quite “open” last evening. In fact, I understand it was open all day long, I just wasn't home to hear it. But around 2330 UTC, I listened on ten meters, found a lot of E-skip signals, and called CQ on 28.400. I got a lot of answers.
Without mentioning the callsigns or operator names, I can tell you that it was very apparent that the first few stations who responded to my CQ were “Newbies.” The first caller didn't use my callsign when calling me, and included his name (“Joe”) along with his call. As such, I couldn't really tell if he was calling me or somebody else - maybe someone I couldn't hear. Obviously, this confusion could be easily avoided by using proper protocol, but none was used.
When I determined “Joe” was calling me, I made my usual brief first transmission which included my name, location and a comment about how I was hearing his station, and turned it over to him. No answer. “Joe, are you still there?” “Oh, yeah…” He was there, he just didn't realize it was his turn to transmit, since I signed it over to him with full callsigns.
He told me I was “59,” and then went silent. “Joe, where are you located?” “Oh, I'm in…” and then he gave me the information.
My feeling is, if you really don't want to talk to someone, why get on the air and answer a CQ? This guy probably had zero previous experience in ham radio, at least on ten meter SSB, but even listening to a few contacts reveals what the norms are. This contact was going nowhere, so I signed with the station and said, “Anybody else? WB2WIK.”
The next answer was from someone who gave me his “personal.” Arrgh. I strongly recommend using “name” instead. If you meet someone in a business conference, do you say, “My personal is Ralph?”
Amongst the callers yesterday late afternoon were a few seasoned hams, and I had 30-minute long rag chews with each of them. A pleasure. But I really wanted to work more “Newbies,” figuring this was a great opportunity to put it out there, as it were.
The “working Newbies” experience wasn't so great. During my dozen-plus contacts, both coinciding with my contact's transmissions and also in between transmissions I heard announcements of “whew,” and “geesh” and all sorts of stuff. The ham radio equivalent of catcalls. No place for this in amateur radio.
Now, I'll admit there are old-time, very experienced hams who are guilty of bad operating. No doubt about it. But those aren't the guys I normally call, and if they call me, I dispose of the contact quickly.
With the “Newbies,” I can tell a very distinct difference between a ham who's never used a transmitter before and one who comes from the CB ranks. It's obvious. And it's not pretty. Despite what they might think, and a lot of rhetoric I've read on the web, CB operators, by and large, are lousy operators. They've acquired some very bad habits, sometimes over several years, and are very used to breaking - and completely ignoring - rules.
Leave that baggage at the door, guys. Right now, ten meters is only “open” for Sporadic-E “skip” and the m.u.f. is too low for real long-haul F2-layer propagation. But the sunspots will return, and by 2011 it's likely that ten meters will once again demonstrate the kind of conditions we had 1999-2002 (the Cycle 23 peak), where the band might be “open” 18 hours a day, to the whole world. When that happens, using CB operating techniques will get you absolutely nowhere.
This is the perfect time to practice improved operating techniques, and to not resent practical advice. We were all “Newbies,” once.
Everybody thinks they can operate. But good operators have a lot of things in common that separates them from the rest of the pack. It pays to be good, if you're going to bother doing it. This all assumes “phone” operation, primarily SSB.
Speak clearly and distinctly. When you call a station, use his callsign, then your callsign, and maybe your location - briefly. “F6ABC, KE7XYZ in Nevada calling” is pretty good. Provides needed data in an efficient manner.
Speak directly into the microphone, “close talking” the mike, which allows you to use the minimum possible mike gain and still have lots of “punch.” This isn't just what works sometimes, this is what always works. Minimum gain minimizes background noise and improves your transmitted signal-to-noise ratio. Close talking maximizes “punch” and, generally, clarity.
Keep your “calling” transmission brief, but once engaged in a QSO, follow the other operator's lead and keep the QSO going. Make comments, ask questions, get to know the other operator. “How's the weather there?” may be kind of trite, but it gets things rolling, and will hopefully open the door to a real conversation. If you've ever been to where the other operator is from, talk about that. If you've never been there, ask about it. Rigs, antennas, family activities, job, school - whatever. Make a conversation!
Don't break into an ongoing QSO unless you really have something to contribute, which means you already know what the parties are discussing.
If you don't find someone calling CQ, call one yourself. Always include your complete callsign and location as part of the CQ. “This is KG6ZYX near Santa Barbara calling CQ…” isn't a bad format. There's no “rules,” but good enunciation and including relevant information like your location help a lot.
Always remember the other station - the one you're trying to contact, or are in contact with - hears different stuff than you do. They may hear a neighbor of yours much stronger than they hear you, and you may not hear that neighbor at all. Propagation can cause confusion.
Be aware that really good, experienced operators are able to “hear” stuff better than you will. You'll be able to, one day. A lot of this has nothing to do with equipment and everything to do with “good ears,” developed by years of operating, and pulling weak signals out of the noise and static. I work stations who are about “33” in readability and signal strength all the time. I might even tell them they're “59” if it makes them feel better. The point is: Make the contact, and even better, enjoy making the contact.
When working E-skip, which will be the predominant ionospheric mode on 10m (as well as 6m, and sometimes 12m) for the next couple of years, remember propagation “changes direction” pretty often. It can go away altogether, and then come back. When it does return, propagation may favor an entirely different region than it just did ten minutes ago. Also be aware of the rarer double and triple-hop Sporadic-E, which allows propagation of double and triple the normal distances of single-hop E. Last evening, amongst several “single hop” callers on 28.400, I received a call from Don, WV4X in Virginia, via double-hop E. Each “hop” gets a bit weaker, so when we have single and double hop (or even triple hop) occurring at the same time, you may have to listen more carefully for the longer-haul DX - but it's often there.
Beams work. Yes, A99s and G5RVs and all sorts of antennas work, too - but if you haven't tried a beam, you're in for a big surprise when you finally do try one.
CW works. If you're a die-hard no-coder, you probably don't know code anyway, so ignore this. But hams of every license class (at least in the U.S.) are entitled to use CW and there's interesting stuff, including a lot of DX, on ten meters (and also on 6m and 12m) that can be worked via Sporadic-E, some of which almost never shows up on “phone.” Understanding code also helps a great deal in interpreting beacons which are all over 10m (and 6m), and all sending their data using CW. A quick spin of the dial usually reveals a lot of beacons if there's any propagation, and if you can decipher code, you'll know where those beacons are, and what directions the band's open to. It's cool.
Techs don't have privileges on 12m, but Generals do - the whole band. 12m hasn't had much F2-layer propagation in a long time, but does experience E-skip and can be open when 10m is. It's a cool band with little QRM and a lot of DX activity (outside North America). Techs always had 6m privileges, but many never used the band (yet). Try it! 6m is often open when 10m is, and I find signals come from the same places with about the same signal strength, generally speaking. Last evening when I was working 10m as described, I was also using 6m (separate rig), and made several contacts “in between” my 10m QSOs.
I often ask my 10m contacts (via Sporadic-E), “Do you have six meters?” and if they say, “Yes,” I ask them to give it a quick try on 50.150 or wherever (pick a clear spot). Sometimes we make it, sometimes we don't -- but if we do, it's another good contact on another band; could even be a new “grid,” or county, or something! It only takes ten seconds to try.
If you have a rig that covers HF and 6m all in one box (no separate 6m rig), become familiar with how to change bands quickly and efficiently. Maybe store a few 6m SSB frequencies in memories you can punch up in a second or two to change bands fast. E-skip is fun, but can be very brief. Sometimes the band's open to a particular location for all of two minutes, and then closes or shifts to somewhere else. If it takes you the whole two minutes to “QSY,” you've lost an opportunity.
Get on, and now's the time. 10m may well be quite “dead” from August 1 to December 1, and then may be quite “dead” again from February 1 to May 1, as these are quiet times in between E seasons. If you want to have some fun, do it right now.
But leave the CB habits at the door. Listen to what good operators are doing, and do the same thing. It's efficient, and you'll be “welcomed” with open arms.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by SSB on June 4, 2007
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The average ham proves everyday just how anal they are.
Alex.....
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N9FE on June 4, 2007
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steve: I have not had one problem with any new op's. In fact most say they have been listening for years, amd there finally able to talk, and kind of proud of it. Thats 75 80 and 160. As far as ten meters, I have not heard one tech class op, Not one, last night the band was wide open, All i heard were general or higher.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W4LGH on June 4, 2007
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SSB-Alex says..."The average ham proves everyday just how anal they are."
-----------------------
Actually that is not necessarly true. I personally would like to see it get back to being a little more proper. I was in qso with a "newbie" the other evening when he asked me if I was running heat? Heat I said, I'm in Florida and have had the AC on for the past 6 months. no, no he said...what size is your pill box? Again confused, I asked him if he was trying to aske me how much power I was running and thats when he replied..10-4! And of course every sentence ended with a "there". I nicely explained to him that we didn't use 10-code, didn't have pill boxes, that it was OK to refer to your linear amplifier, and openly admit that your power could be up to 1500watts.
So it was easy to see where he was coming from, and that too is OK, but you'd think would listen a while and get a handle on how qso's usually go. He was nice, appologized, and said he would try a little harder to break the "old" habits.
So I know where Steve is coming from with this article. I personally don't think these "new" generals will stick around. That it is more a passing fad for them. Shame too, but as they say... Easy come, Easy go!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by AF4KK on June 4, 2007
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While you make some excellent points, cut 'em some slack! Sure, if there's a seasoned HAM using bad on-the-air habits, that's one thing. However, if there's a person who is new to HF, don't nitpick on the protocol or the "proper" thing to say. They're NEWbies and they need to feel welcomed on HF. We always hear stories about how new HAMs (either on HF or higher) have felt alienated because they were recognized as new and "green". We were ALL beginners at one point. Remember how nervous and naive WE were??
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K0EWS on June 4, 2007
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Steve, nice post. These are good tips for the newcomers, and I don't find anything condescending at all. Elmers sometimes have a catch 22. They try to give tips, and they are condescending. They don't say anything, and they are unwilling to help.
Anyway, as an experienced ham, I enjoyed your article, and you've inspired me to give sporadic E a try on 10 and 12 meters. That's something I hardly tried, but now I think I will.
Nice article, Steve, and thanks!
Eric
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WS4Y on June 4, 2007
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I think my newbie experience was totally different
being all rock bound cw.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007
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The average ham proves everyday just how anal they are.
Alex, Alex, Alex, you've got a lot to learn and obviously do not see the bigger picture here.
if there's a person who is new to HF, don't nitpick on the protocol or the "proper" thing to say.
Scott, Scott, Scott, you also don't see the bigger picture.
Let me explain why Steve's posting is right on target.
I do know that personally, even when I was a newbie back a few years ago, I didn't make the gaffs that Steve has been hearing of the newbies. Why didn't I? It's because I did a lot of listening and learning and knew beforehand exactly how a QSO was to be conducted and what "lingo" was appropriate.
Now, you may ask why is this important?
Well, it' important for everyone to be using the same "language" so that maximum information is exchanged in an efficient manner. As Steve has mentioned, with the E scatter, you may be in perfect 59 copy and suddenly have the propagation change just like that and suddenly virtually no copy. If you're having a tough time getting information exchanged, you may not obtain enough info to make that QSO valid. It's not as important if you're talking to Billy Bob across town, but it can be in you're talking to a new one, be it domestic or DX. I know, I've been there.
OK, now for the bigger picture.
In the VHF/UHF world, the following is not a concern and therefore using cute lingo isn't as important.
On HF, your signals can/will be travelling across the globe to foreign countries. You are therefore transmitting to the world. You are representing yourself and more importantly your country. One good reason for the CW testing requirement, besides learning CW, was it indirectly taught people how to conduct a QSO since that was part of the testing requirement. Since your HF signals will be received by foreign countries, it's important diplomatically that you conduct yourself in a proper and professional manner. Please take the time to learn the proper lingo and manner of operating and please represent yourself and your country in a positive light.
You should be able to learn these things just by listening and not being told on the air. Take the time and you'll be openly welcomed. It really is very important.
Phil KB9CRY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KX8N on June 4, 2007
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Good article as always, Steve. My first DX contact was greyline to South America on 10 meters. If these guys can have some patience, they are going to have a really good time on 10.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K8MHZ on June 4, 2007
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Nice write up as usual, Steve.
So far all my experiences with new hams have been great. They tend to hit the 2 meter repeaters before they try HF and that is where I encounter most of them. Around here is is considered an honor to be a 'first contact' so anytime a new call comes up they almost always have someone to talk to.
Each person handles criticism and correction differently. Some are very willing to learn on the air while others are a bit more shy. Sometimes it is best to try to get an e-mail address from a new ham that needs a lot of correction and work with them off the air.
I do feel the assessment that all jargon is not acceptable on the air is incorrect and insincere, in fact we hams are very hypocritical about it. We use plain English most of the time but we also use 73, QTH, fire bottles, RST numbers, machine (for repeater), etc. Not only do we do it on the air (like we claim we don't) we do it on the Internet as well. I think we need to be honest with the new folks and admit that we have our own lexicon and we don't like certain others on the air. Most people aren't stupid enough to believe the 'only plain English' tripe as soon as they hear '73 Old Man, I'll catch you on down the log'.
I have informed my students to listen first and then do their best to assimilate. If someone acts rude or gets on their case over some supposed mistake they have made they are to key up, say their call, un-key and spin it leaving the other op hanging. I told them I will go over what ever the issue was with them and that most of the rude ops don't have a clue about law and operation on ham radio, they are just mean and grumpy people and it is best not to engage them at all.
This chip we have on our shoulder about 'plain English' on the air may not be such a good one to tout.
I have been involved in radio for over 40 years in one form or another. My family had CBs when it was only legal to talk to a person with the same license you had, using unit numbers to differentiate stations. As a kid, no radio was safe in my hands as I knew I could make them work better by modifying them. Many such radios died on the operating table. I lived through the CB craze of the late 70s.
I never heard the term 'first personal' until I got on a 2 meter repeater in the mid 90's when I got my first license. I thought it was a ham thing until I used the term and was 'corrected' on the air one day.
We always use the litmus test of comparing the way we speak on the air to the way we speak in person. To that effect, do we tell people we don't like the way they talk in person and then go on to tell them how they should be talking?
Of course not. Why should we on the radio? Unless the person on the other end is genuinely interested in total ham assimilation we should either just tolerate it or address the issue in a more private setting.
The other approach is not to talk to people that you don't want to hear. If they are all that bad they will realize that and either change or bail out of the hobby.
Sincerely yours,
Mark Derby
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB1GMX on June 4, 2007
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As a seasoned VHF (6&2M) op I found the transistion to HF was not abrupt for me. There were differences most by listening were easy to get the hang of. The biggest is new accents are more common! It didn't hurt there were some very welcoming nets to talk on as well.
I started HF with a homebrewed 10M rig and enjoyed the locals and a few short hops. Then I was thoughly hooked as I was always fond of 10. Then I decided to revamp a HW101 and put that on the air and since with a PAR EF10/20/40. I've been trying 10/20/40M bands and find them interesting as well. Next come the WARC
bands starting with 17M, soon as I finish yet another SSB tranceiver.
I've found that former CBers tend to run the gamut some are very good ops and some are not so. All I've encountered certainly want to be good ops and after a few contacts seems to have started well along the transistion to being excellent ops. Hey people were patient with me, and I shall be patient as well.
The comments on close talking are certainly valid as most likely a sock hand mike is being used aand they were designed to be used up close.
As to the new generals leaving 10. Well some will as they discover other bands. Then a few will return and even be regulars. I suspect the abundance of cheap 10M radios (HTX10s, HTX100, 2910s and others) will insure plenty of opportunities for 10M ops.
On the CW front, even if you not a CW op or even learned it on 10M. 6M and 2M there are beacons. They transmit a simple format and it's repeats so with a cheat sheet and a few minuts you should beable to get the call and grid location. Monitoring beacons is one of the great ways to see if the band is open and to where. If all else it's a good way to check if the reciever and antenna is working at all. ;)
Allison
Kb1GMX
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N4KZ on June 4, 2007
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Working 10 meter SSB lately has been lots of fun. I enjoy talking with new hams too -- or recent upgrades. Most have been good operators and I really enjoy their enthusiasm.
But Steve makes some excellent points. For instance, drop the Citizens Band lingo. Most of its is just plain ridiculous. Using "personal" for name fits into this category. If you want to work someone, use his callsign and then say yours. Don't blurt out, "Contact." We use our callsigns and "contact" isn't a callsign.
Also, please listen carefully. I call CQ often and often have more than one station respond. Like most, I usually respond to the strongest signal. And on the higher bands, skip zones often prevent three-way contacts so it's not practical to acknowledge two callers.
But on several occasions I've had one of the stations I didn't acknowledge continue transmitting as if I had answered him. So, I have the guy I did answer transmitting and the guy I didn't answer transmitting at the same time. Several such people have continued on for several transmissions despite the fact I am not using their callsign or name! One guy even chastised for getting his callsign and name wrong! The reason they were "wrong" is that I answered another caller!
If he was copying me so poorly, he probably shouldn't have called and once he called, listening more closely would have been in order. More common sense than operator skill, I think.
But I don't mean to sound harsh or critical. We need all the active hams we can get but please spend a little time listening to other QSOs -- listen to good operators -- and pattern your own operating after theirs. No one expects new hams to get everything right immediately but a little research will go a long way.
And please, read, read and read some more about ham radio and propagation. Way too many 10 meter ops have been commenting lately, "Gee, I'm surprised to hear 10 meters open. I thought the band was dead at the bottom of the sunspot cycle. Please read up on sporadic-E and how it occurs annually and is not tied to the 11-year sunspot cycle. I worked a half-dozen Europeans on 10 meter CW via multi-hop sporadic-E during the recent CQWW WPX contact.
73 and have fun,
N4KZ
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6YE on June 4, 2007
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Steve,
What a great and well written article for newbies AND oldies.
Another item some can learn is how to participate in a round table. I have been on some with DX stations that consisted of ten (10) participants. Everything ran smoothly and everyone had a chance to speak at least twice.
OTOH, I was mobile on 2 meters with six (6) participants and there was at least one ass that will either get into a monologue or banter with only one participant for five or ten minutes non-stop. BTW, Mr. Donkey was not a newbie.
Another example: You are conversing with someone (DX or local) and having a meaningful chat. Mr. Donkey requests a break and after being welcomed in immediately expounds on his hemmoroids or some other non-pertinent subject. The original station you started with signs off and it is just you and Mr. Donkey.
Nobody is born knowing everything hence everyone was once a newbie. I echo your comments on learning the lingo. Ham radio is a wonderful and interesting hobby. Enjoy and have fun.
Semper Fi,
Tommy - K6YE
DX IS
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WY3X on June 4, 2007
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I think I see where Steve is coming from. Pretend, for a moment, that you're in your car and sharing the road with a new driver. You see that the fellow failed to use his turn signal when switching lanes or making a turn. Wouldn't you have preferred that he did? It's only a minor point of driving, but just think- what if failing to use his turn signal caused an accident?
We OT's tend to think of ourselves as the "driver's ed" teachers for amateur radio. And there's nothing wrong with that. After all, we desire new ops to keep and maintain the rules of the road (radio) just as we have for years and years. In the past, many of us had Elmers who would show us the way to proper radio protocol. The next contact you make may not have had that benefit!
What I'm saying is that the next time you hear one of these newbies on the air doing something which you perceive to be poor protocol, why not help them out a bit by offering some constructive advice? Don't go overboard by lashing out and chastising them, just coax them along nicely to help them understand just what you think they may be doing wrong. A little nice goes a long way.
I think it's a good time for someone (ARRL?) to write a concise leaflet handout of CB-to-Ham translations for the CBers joining our ranks. i.e. pill=transistor, footwarmer=amplifier, etc. and it should include a list of terms you should never use on amateur radio (i.e. "local yokel", double-nickel, etc.) If they aren't familiar with proper terms, surely you can't blame them, can you?
73 all, -KR4WM
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K0BG on June 4, 2007
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Steve, once again you have proven to be an Elmer's Elmer.
One of the problems restructuring has caused is a general lack of propriety. If we want amateur radio to become the vast wasteland exemplified by 11 meters, all we have to do is sit back and let nature take is course. Or, we can, as Steve has suggested, gently and courteously correct the "Newbies". In other words, be an Elmer by setting the example, not being one.
Alan, KŘBG
www.k0bg.com
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K8XF on June 4, 2007
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I have heard the same thing on all bands regarding poor operating habits. Either new or older ops. I still do not understand some guy calling cq and signing his call once. Call cq 3 times or six times and give ur call once? Thats dumb. As for poor fone procedures that tells me a lot about the type of ops we have nowadays. Proper operating procedures either cw or ssb can be found in the ARRL Operating Handbook. I suggest reading them newbies.....
73
Mike, K8XF
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB1OCC on June 4, 2007
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I'm a "newbie" (licensed 10/2006) who is (or was) planning to exercise my privileges outside of 2m and 70cm once I purchase/build the necessary equipment.
However, after reading the article, I get the feeling that "newbies" are not wanted anywhere on the air. I am fearful of making a "newbie mistake" and causing irreparable harm to the planetary alignment in our solar system or to the space/time continuum.
I'm being facetious or course, but please give us "newbies" a break while we learn the ropes. Also please remember that you were once a "newbie" too.
If you hear one of us "newbies" making a mistake, please share your pearls of wisdom accompanied with a side dish of compassion.
73’s
Brian
KB1OCC
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007
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Brian, chill out. You're very welcomed and don't worry about making a mistake. But do your homework and on the air is not the place to be doing the basic learning.
As stated, there are plenty of resources out there to read up and learn the ropes.
And as I've stated and hopefully is taken to heart by all, is on HF now and most definately in the future when the cycle improves, virtually all of your HF transmissions will be copyable by radio ops in foreign countries.
Again, chill out but do understand the importance of what we're trying to convey. You won't be talking cross town; you'll be playing in the big boys arena.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K1CJS on June 4, 2007
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Steve, you're very good with words--gently making it plain and simple that newer ham operators have got to realize that fancy terminology, lingo, slang--whatever you would call it--has no place on the ham bands and that there is a long time followed way of communicating on them.
Just, however, as there are those newbies who either refuse or find it hard to leave their old habits behind, there are those in our ranks that have no tolerance whatever for any deviation from their set and established norms--not even for those newbies who genuinely want to learn the 'ham radio' way of communicating.
I would just hope that those new hams and those newly upgraded ones would come to realize that there is a universally accepted way of communicating on the bands and that they should learn it, leaving their old habits behind. I also hope, however, that those long time hams that know that way would realize that newbies need gentle correction and help to learn and accept that way.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K1CJS on June 4, 2007
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Steve, you're very good with words--gently making it plain and simple that newer ham operators have got to realize that fancy terminology, lingo, slang--whatever you would call it--has no place on the ham bands and that there is a long time followed way of communicating on them.
Just, however, as there are those newbies who either refuse or find it hard to leave their old habits behind, there are those in our ranks that have no tolerance whatever for any deviation from their set and established norms--not even for those newbies who genuinely want to learn the 'ham radio' way of communicating.
I would just hope that those new hams and those newly upgraded ones would come to realize that there is a universally accepted way of communicating on the bands and that they should learn it, leaving their old habits behind. I also hope, however, that those long time hams that know that way would realize that newbies need gentle correction and help to learn and accept that way.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K1CJS on June 4, 2007
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Steve, you're very good with words--gently making it plain and simple that newer ham operators have got to realize that fancy terminology, lingo, slang--whatever you would call it--has no place on the ham bands and that there is a long time followed way of communicating on them.
Just, however, as there are those newbies who either refuse or find it hard to leave their old habits behind, there are those in our ranks that have no tolerance whatever for any deviation from their set and established norms--not even for those newbies who genuinely want to learn the 'ham radio' way of communicating.
I would just hope that those new hams and those newly upgraded ones would come to realize that there is a universally accepted way of communicating on the bands and that they should learn it, leaving their old habits behind. I also hope, however, that those long time hams that know that way would realize that newbies need gentle correction and help to learn and accept that way.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K1CJS on June 4, 2007
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Seems like I found a new bug--the first two posts were rejected, and I kept on trying till it was accepted. Looks like they were all accepted!
Sorry people! 73!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N4CDB on June 4, 2007
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I guess I'm a little confused by the OPs comments. For someone claiming to want to help the newbies, I don't see it in the QSOs that were discussed.
WB2WIK wrote:
My feeling is, if you really don't want to talk to someone, why get on the air and answer a CQ? This guy probably had zero previous experience in ham radio, at least on ten meter SSB, but even listening to a few contacts reveals what the norms are. This contact was going nowhere, so I signed with the station and said, “Anybody else? WB2WIK.”
<snip>
The next answer was from someone who gave me his “personal.” Arrgh. I strongly recommend using “name” instead. If you meet someone in a business conference, do you say, “My personal is Ralph?”
...I really wanted to work more “Newbies,”...
The “working Newbies” experience wasn't so great...I heard announcements of “whew,” and “geesh” and all sorts of stuff...No place for this in amateur radio.
So the first QSO wasn't going well and rather than trying to help the newbie out Steve just signs and bails completely? Does that send the right signal to somebody that probably doesn't have any experience? I think it might do more to make them less likely to key the mic at all.
The other comments seem to fall along the same lines. If you want to work the newbies (and that's a good thing) than I think you have to expect some inexperienced operating procedures. But rather than getting frustrated and bailing on the QSO give some advice along the way. Maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anywhere that he said he tried to help these contacts.
The advice following the QSO recap is fine for those that are reading this site but a little help on the air goes a long way. I've heard too many OTs going ballistic on newbies and it's sad. If you're a new General and you're not pushing 1500W you're apparently less of an operator. Phhht.
If you really want to work the newbies, then help them out when they're struggling instead of looking for someone else that's a little more polished.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KX8N on June 4, 2007
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"It's only a minor point of driving, but just think- what if failing to use his turn signal caused an accident? "
See, there's the point... some people (and I'm not talking about this poster) act as though some new guy's poor operating practice is going to get someone hurt or killed, when in fact it's not much more than an annoyance to those who know better.
Just slow down, stay calm, try to use some tact, and try to help them along.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007
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there is a universally accepted way of communicating on the bands and that they should learn it,
You're so right Chris. And to expand, one reason for this "standardized" methods of communicating is that if you work DX, the op on the other end usually is very educated but many times, English is not their strongest suit and they may only know "Radio English". If you start deviating from the format that they understand, your QSO may go nowhere.
long time hams that know that way would realize that newbies need gentle correction and help to learn and accept that way.
Yes again Chris the newbies have to understand that they are new and have to be open to polite tactful constructive criticism.
Cary above doesn't seem to share this understanding that learning is a two way street; both the pupil and the teacher must have a vested interest and that the onus is on the pupil.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N4CDB on June 4, 2007
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KB9CRY wrote:
Yes again Chris the newbies have to understand that they are new and have to be open to polite tactful constructive criticism.
Cary above doesn't seem to share this understanding that learning is a two way street; both the pupil and the teacher must have a vested interest and that the onus is on the pupil.
*****************************
I'm not quite sure how you inferred that from my post, Philip, but you're quite wrong. However, where did Steve say he provided "tactful constructive criticism"? I'm not saying he didn't but I don't see that anywhere in the discussion about the QSOs in question. He says he bailed. He got frustrated. Did he give contact #1 the chance to ask for help before bailing? It doesn't sound like it to me.
I'm really not trying to stir anything up so I'll leave it alone after this. It just came off to me as "Come on out newbies and get on the air...but if you don't operate like a 30-year-pro I'm dumping you like a wet noodle."
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 4, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by N4CDB on June 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I guess I'm a little confused by the OPs comments. For someone claiming to want to help the newbies, I don't see it in the QSOs that were discussed.
So the first QSO wasn't going well and rather than trying to help the newbie out Steve just signs and bails completely? Does that send the right signal to somebody that probably doesn't have any experience? I think it might do more to make them less likely to key the mic at all.<
::Maybe true. And that would probably be a very good thing, until they learn what to do after keying the mike. In the particular example cited, I didn't cut and run on the QSO; I tried to make a conversation, the other station just wouldn't allow it. I did say, "It would work better, when you're calling someone, to use his call letters, then your call letters, and say 'over' to indicate when you're finished calling." That recommendation obviously went right over his head, he never said another word on the subject. I tried to make a conversation by asking him more about his location, how long he'd been on the air, and other stuff. He didn't answer any of this. Either he really didn't hear me, or was otherwise occupied, or a bad listener, or something. I can't pull a QSO out of a brick wall.
Yes, we were all newbies once. Maybe it matters that when I was a newbie, I was 13 years old and in 8th grade, listening to teachers every day advising us how to do everything. When I made contacts on the air, I listened very carefully for suggestions and implemented them along the way. I recall the first time I made a contact on "phone," it was 2m AM. I worked a local old-timer and spoke very fast. He said, "Hold on there, squirt, I can tell you're a kid, but slow down. I can't even understand what you're saying!"
Boy, did I take heed of that. Cut it down several notches from that point forward and was very thankful for the lesson from the old timer, as well as hundreds more that followed.
WB2WIK/6
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by AB2MH on June 4, 2007
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This thread just proves...
You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make them drink!
Steve, you did your best. Some people just cannot take constructive advice. They know everything!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI6EAA on June 4, 2007
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I am a "newbie", abeit an old one. I revisted Ham Radio in my semi-retirement. I got my General ticket in March. I have had a Tech for a year previously, but didn't get on the air very much.
First, I need to say that the VAST majority of hams I have talked to on HF are very nice, and have given me good advice when asked, even in a contest situation.
I appreciate those helping me in my stage of the hobby. OK, I forget to give my name up front sometimes, or I don't give a signal report in the second sentence. I still am fiddling with audio settings, so help there is always needed.
The few bad operators I have connected with in my short time on the air seemed to be OTs (many with extra call signs). A few bad apples are to be found everywhere, so I do not worry about it. OTs, please don't get high blood pressure over a few rude new hams you run into.
For OTs talking to new hams? Many of us have been successful in other areas of our lives and have picked up the hobby now because job/family/life/other hobbies sucked up our time (as it should) when we were younger. Not being licensed for 40 years has nothing to do with our smarts, abilities, desire to learn code, work habits, or social skills. Please do not talk down to us, either on-line or on-the-air.
I have not heard any "CB" type talk that others have complained about. I have heard OTs with 1x2 and 2x1 calls drone on and on in conversations, ignoring others looking for a quick signal check, or shout "GO" after they have finished talking, then cut me off after 15 seconds of my reply. I have listened to hams call over DX pileups, hit the tune button, and call again, kick the amp up, and call again. I don't even try to get into it, with my 100w and a low vertical. Given the call signs, many were Extras and probably were OTs.
I am constantly amazed that non-US/Canada hams even want to talk to anyone on this continent, given the DX pileup etiquette I have seen.
How about a ARRL on-line award for bad human communications skills for selected hams? Similar to the A1 Ops award, but they need to be an Extra class and be recommended by two Newbies?
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI6EAA on June 4, 2007
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I am a "newbie", abeit an old one. I revisted Ham Radio in my semi-retirement. I got my General ticket in March. I have had a Tech for a year previously, but didn't get on the air very much.
I had my first contact on 10 meters last Saturday, after 1 year of hearing literally nothing on that band. It was 1000 mile path, and the guy sounded like he was next door. The next 10 meter contact was 100 miles away and I we could not even exchange call signs. I guess that is one of the exciting parts of the hobby -things can change quickly.
To some of the follow-on posts.... I need to say that the VAST majority of hams I have talked to on HF are very nice, and have given me good advice when asked, even in a contest situation.
I appreciate those helping me in my stage of the hobby. OK, I forget to give my name up front sometimes, or I don't give a signal report in the second sentence. I still am fiddling with audio settings, so help there is always needed.
The few bad or rude operators I have connected with in my short time on the air seemed to be OTs (many with extra call signs).
For OTs talking to new hams? Many of us have been successful in other areas of our lives and have picked up the hobby now because job/family/life/other hobbies sucked up our time (as it should) when we were younger. Not being licensed for 40 years has nothing to do with our smarts, abilities, desire to learn code, work habits, or social skills. Please do not talk down to us, either on-line or on-the-air.
I have not heard any "CB" type talk that others have complained about. I have heard OTs with 1x2 and 2x1 calls drone on and on in conversations, ignoring others looking for a quick signal check, or shout "GO" after they have finished talking, then cut me off after 15 seconds of my reply. I have listened to hams call over DX pileups, hit the tune button, and call again, kick the amp up, and call again. I don't even try to get into it, with my 100w and a low vertical. Given the call signs, many were Extras and probably were OTs.
How about a ARRL award for bad human communications skills for selected hams? Similar to the A1 Ops award, but they need to be an Extra class op and be recommended by two Newbies?
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007
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given the DX pileup etiquette I have seen.
Heck go over to Europe if you want to hear DX pileup etiquette.
Then once having done that, go to Japan.
Both are at the far extremes of the spectrum. There's bad apples everywhere but most folks are very polite and professional.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6AER on June 4, 2007
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I have been on ten meters every day for the last week and out of 20-30 QSO’s a day about two thirds are what you described. Being in the Western half or the US almost every QSO with a newbie on the East coast is a rare DX for him. Many are running a bare essential station and have not had many contacts with station more than a few states away. I understand their excitement but you cannot have a free for all on the air.
Propagation is important to understand and on ten and six meters, very often stations are working folks other operators can not hear. For the newbie wanting to get into an ongoing QSO please do not call if you hear no transmission but wait until the station is has turned over the exchange or until the station calls QRZ. When you call him the middle of a QSO you interrupt and many times the station to having to have the other party repeat its self. If you can not hear both sides of the conversation do not join the QSO for it leads to a lot of dead time for the other parties who cannot copy your exchange.
In a rapid fire DX situation where the owner of the frequency is working DX do not call until they call QRZ. This slows down the exchange rate due to interference. Give your call in plain English and only use phonetics when necessary. It is much faster and if phonetics are necessary use proper phonetics such as Alpha, Bravo, Charley, Delta, etc., Whisky Before 6 Creates Happy Individuals (WB6CHI) may sound cute but adds confusion and is hard to understand.
As Steve has said; give your name, location (State) and report (59) right up front. Many times the contact quality can be improved if I know where to turn the beam antenna. Hams move a lot. Many times I have ask for the location even after the third exchange and have lost the contact when the conditions changed and never knew what state to point the antenna to.
For those operators who think Steve is being anal you have not been in the hobby long. If you want to be accepted by the established operator you must learn the procedures. Whether you a private pilot, boating, hunting or whatever you have to learn the proper methods if you want to be accepted into the fraternity. This hobby has been around for 90 years and proper behavior and decorum has been the hall mark of the ranks.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6AER on June 4, 2007
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I have been on ten meters every day for the last week and out of 20-30 QSO’s a day about two thirds are what you described. Being in the Western half or the US almost every QSO with a newbie on the East coast is a rare DX for him. Many are running a bare essential station and have not had many contacts with station more than a few states away. I understand their excitement but you cannot have a free for all on the air.
Propagation is important to understand and on ten and six meters, very often stations are working folks other operators can not hear. For the newbie wanting to get into an ongoing QSO please do not call if you hear no transmission but wait until the station is has turned over the exchange or until the station calls QRZ. When you call him the middle of a QSO you interrupt and many times the station to having to have the other party repeat its self. If you can not hear both sides of the conversation do not join the QSO for it leads to a lot of dead time for the other parties who cannot copy your exchange.
In a rapid fire DX situation where the owner of the frequency is working DX do not call until they call QRZ. This slows down the exchange rate due to interference. Give your call in plain English and only use phonetics when necessary. It is much faster and if phonetics are necessary use proper phonetics such as Alpha, Bravo, Charley, Delta, etc., Whisky Before 6 Creates Happy Individuals (WB6CHI) may sound cute but adds confusion and is hard to understand.
As Steve has said; give your name, location (State) and report (59) right up front. Many times the contact quality can be improved if I know where to turn the beam antenna. Hams move a lot. Many times I have ask for the location even after the third exchange and have lost the contact when the conditions changed and never knew what state to point the antenna to.
For those operators who think Steve is being anal you have not been in the hobby long. If you want to be accepted by the established operator you must learn the procedures. Whether you a private pilot, boating, hunting or whatever you have to learn the proper methods if you want to be accepted into the fraternity. This hobby has been around for 90 years and proper behavior and decorum has been the hall mark of the ranks.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 4, 2007
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"This chip we have on our shoulder about 'plain English' on the air may not be such a good one to tout."
True. Fact is, "plain English" has NEVER been used on the ham bands. Never. Like every other avocation, we have our own language, idioms, abbreviations, etc. If we are new, we should learn it. It very much speeds up the conversation, and helps the other person to understand.
(And a "fire bottle" is a tube, usually referring to a large transmitting tube. Wow, haven't heard that term in decades!)
And the original article was excellent. Thanks, we all needed that!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N7RAC on June 4, 2007
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I can understand the need for Call ID, RST, and QTH, then bail IF there is a huge pileup, or contest...But if it is just DXing, take the time to school them/us. As my Dad use to say, "When you stop learning, you are dead"...NONE of us are perfect, dont care if you are a new HAM, or a seasoned one.
E-L-M-E-R
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007
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For the newbie wanting to get into an ongoing QSO please do not call if you hear no transmission but wait until the station is has turned over the exchange or until the station calls QRZ.
Here's another example of how having everyone use a standard QSO format can help. There are many times you can not hear the other side of a QSO but the station talking with the other op can. By listening for the "right" time to put your call in, as stated, can help quicken the time you'll get to talk to the op.
By jumping to gun, you're just sending QRM, although maybe not intentional.
Yes is takes some time to get the hang of it and don't worry if you make mistakes; this really isn't rocket science.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WA1RNE on June 4, 2007
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by KB1OCC on June 4, 2007
"I'm a "newbie" (licensed 10/2006) who is (or was) planning to exercise my privileges outside of 2m and 70cm once I purchase/build the necessary equipment.
However, after reading the article, I get the feeling that "newbies" are not wanted anywhere on the air. I am fearful of making a "newbie mistake" and causing irreparable harm to the planetary alignment in our solar system or to the space/time continuum."
Brian;
I wouldn't translate this article to infer that you are not welcome. I've been a ham 34 years and have seen and heard it all. In my opinion, the tone of this article is proper and does not read in a way that should insult a new ham or a new HF operator. The advice provided is very good and can be expanded upon, which the ARRL did some time ago when they published the ARRL Operating Manual which I highly recommend.
Probably better than any one book is lots of listening. It's like driving a car; you don't just hop behind the wheel and push the peddle (microphone) and go. The ones that do sometimes learn the hard way.
....WA1RNE
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W7ETA on June 4, 2007
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Thanks for another well thought out, helpful article, aimed at new to HF ops.
warm 73, 100F+ here now
Bob
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC0YVW on June 4, 2007
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As a “Newbie” who is working mostly CW (even though I wasn’t required to take the test) this is all good information to be sure. I agree with the underlying premise of, “Listen, listen, and listen some more” and learn from the “correct” procedures as well as the “mistakes” of poor operators. Again, (as a Newbie) my biggest complaint in trying to learn proper phone operations is Old-Timers, (or Newbies trying to “sound old”), giving calls way-too-fast and using cute little alpha-phonetics.
My theory is pretty simple; Stick with what was in the study materials for the Exams and use the standard conventions and protocols for operation. We’re entering a brave-new-era in Ham radio, please be patient with us Newbies so we learn correctly and don’t develop or continue bad habits and poor skills.
73
Tom
kcŘyvw
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W8KQE on June 4, 2007
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Steve, excellent article! Back in the 70's, when I first got licensed, even newbies seemed to know the basics of what to say on the air, and how to conduct a simple QSO. Before I actually transmitted on SSB with my newly acquired 'General' class license, I *LISTENED* carefully to several contacts (and took mental notes), and got the jist of what to say. This does not seem to be the case these days, in many instances. To me, this is just one of a myriad of many examples of 'the dumbing down of America', and general 'lowering of standards'. To quote Tony Soprano, "WHADDAYAGONNADO, UH?"
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by NU0R on June 4, 2007
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Steve, Great article and very timely. You said nothing that should offend anyone. You simply told it the way it is. I applaude you for taking your valuable time to mentor the new ops. As always you hit the nail on the head. Bruce
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KE4MOB on June 4, 2007
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"I personally don't think these "new" generals will stick around. That it is more a passing fad for them. Shame too, but as they say... Easy come, Easy go!"
I just wonder what "incentive" we will give them as a reason to stay the next time.
At some point, every horse will leave the dilapidated barn no matter how sweet the hay.
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by AA4YU on June 4, 2007
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Solid protocols make communication much easier. The initial exchange is important for a number of reasons and learning to do it right makes life easier for everyone involved. Making sure the call is right helps with logging and knowing who you are talking with. Location helps with things like beam alignment. Signal reports tell us that we may or may not want to try for an extended session.
Once you get to know someone the protocols can be relaxed and everyone can sit back and have a good time. But the best way to make lots of friends on the air is to be a good communicator.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007
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I just wonder what "incentive" we will give them as a reason to stay the next time.
At some point, every horse will leave the dilapidated barn no matter how sweet the hay.
Well said Steve, but the incentive has to come from within. Everyone is a freshman and they must understand that you're not going to be welcomed with open arms into the new fraternity until you've proven your mettle; it's just the way it is.
And as the poster you quoted was trying to say, some of the new ops may not want to conform and they will drop out of the fraternity and that's OK. Again, the incentive to belong has to come from within the individual wanting to join, not the other way around.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI6EAA on June 4, 2007
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"To me, this is just one of a myriad of many examples of 'the dumbing down of America', and general 'lowering of standards'. To quote Tony Soprano, "WHADDAYAGONNADO, UH?""
Want to kill the hobby? This attitude will do it.
I remember a lot of hams talking like this to me when I was a teenager in the early 1970s. Imagine, getting a ticket (novice) with only 5wpm of code? Shamefull! They are dumbing down the hobby!!
Needless to say, I then blew off interest in the hobby as did my friends at the time. Since then, the average age of a ham seems to be going from 35 then towards 70 now.
Many of you have not spent any time with today's young people. They are generally smarter that you can possibly imagine. Pick up a High School Biology or Math textbook. You will be amazed.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K2RNY on June 4, 2007
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I've been on the air for one year now. I use a script. I have it written down right in front of me. General QSO exchange information and topics, DX exchanges, etc. I have participated in 2 contests and, yes, I script the exchange for those as well. This has helped me a lot. I find myself having to look at the script less and less as I operate more and more. This makes me feel good and hopefully, I am being seen as a good op.
But, there is just the one thing I did for many months before I began to use the script. That was listen and listen some more.
My listening has taught me a lot. How to respond, when to respond, etc.
There is no substitution for good operating skills in my book. So, to all my fellow newcomers to this great hobby, please listen to the exchanges happening on the air. Don't worry about getting the contact. Worry about getting the contact done well. You'll get more of them and be respected as a quality operator by listening first, and then pressing the button later.
73 to all.
Carey
K2RNY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KG6WLS on June 4, 2007
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Nice article and well put, Steve. However there are those who are seasoned ops that still have the CB mentality, profanity and bad manners. I actually witnessed it for the first time on 40 the other evening.
I'll just keep spinning that VFO (big fat knob in the front) away from the garbage.
Riley H. had some simular comments about this at Dayton I think. Well, maybe...
73
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K1CJS on June 4, 2007
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"Many of you have not spent any time with today's young people. They are generally smarter that you can possibly imagine. Pick up a High School Biology or Math textbook. You will be amazed."
So VERY true. Stuff that was being taught in high school back when I attended is now being taught in sixth grade. Today's kids are no dummies--but on the other hand, todays kids seek and get instant gratification, something we seldom got when I was in school.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K1CJS on June 4, 2007
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One nice thing is that the hams with the lousy attitude seem to hang out here instead of on the bands.
___________
A point that has been mentioned in this article is to listen before pushing that button--pay attention to how some of the ops on HF do their thing just like the 'Now You're Talking' book advises the new tech class licensees to do on 2 mtrs. when they get their ticket.
This is the one point that should be stressed above everything else--just don't grab that mike and start talking. LISTEN FOR A WHILE FIRST!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W2DIP on June 4, 2007
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I will agree that you should wait for QRZ before transmitting your call in a pileup BUT I take my cue from the DX operator. If he is picking up stations that are calling during the pauses of a QSO, I will call during a pause. If the DX operator is only picking up stations that call after he says QRZ, I will only call then. I quickly learned to adapt my style to that of the situation when working DX during pileups or else got left in the dust by more aggressive operators.
I am a newbie General and have to agree with a previous poster that it is somewhat hypocritical to make fun of CB lingo, tell newbies to learn how to properly speak on SSB and then refer to reading a book on Ham operations which states that you should not use Q codes on phone.
Statements about using Universally accepted procedures are all well and good but things change with time or else we would all be dressing and talking like they did in the old days. Even the public services are going to plain english and I think that is what we hams should do. No CB lingo and no Q code lingo. Just plain old english that is understood by new and old alike. The name of the game is communications and whatever makes that easier is the way to go and using natural english rather than learning CW Q codes and a ham lexicon is not natural but a vestage of the way things used to be.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KD6HUC on June 4, 2007
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WOW! Well, that's usually my response to anything thought provoking here on Eham. Back around the beginning of March we started a net here in Modesto California that practically caters to the so-called newbies! So far we have only had opportunity to work E-skip during one net, but it was rapid fire and all who could hear the "DX" got to work 'em! How did that work out for everybody? Quite well thank you, and all the "newbies" are now trolling the bands daily here locally now. Perhaps some people who are annoyed by the unpolished operators should get on there with the intention of setting an example for others to follow. Remember that all of us were once "newbies", and it will help you to have a little more understanding.
With my soapbox about to collapse I better move on and let all the "newbies" know that there is a place we will welcome you with open arms. 28.470 at 22:00UTC every sunday afternoon. If you are in Central California(San Jaoquin valley) you may even pick us up on groundwave so check us out! Congratulations on the new privileges and let's get on ten meters!
'73 DE,
K6BSR
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by DUALGATEMOSFET on June 4, 2007
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According to W2DIP, "Statements about using Universally accepted procedures are all well and good but things change with time or else we would all be dressing and talking like they did in the old days. Even the public services are going to plain english and I think that is what we hams should do. No CB lingo and no Q code lingo. Just plain old english that is understood by new and old alike. The name of the game is communications and whatever makes that easier is the way to go and using natural english rather than learning CW Q codes and a ham lexicon is not natural but a vestage of the way things used to be."
DIP, you have been a ham for a little over half a year. You have a lot to learn. It is you who need to learn our ways. We shouldn't have to change for you. Just what kind of "plain English" would you use? Your Noo Yawk and Noo Joizey style of English and dialect?
As long as newbies like you continue with the attitude that ham radio must change for you, you will continue to experience the wrath of established hams who learned to do ham radio the right way. Either you assimilate and conform or you will never be accepted. CW Q codes and a ham lexicon is not a vestage of the way things used to be. It is the way things are, period. Comprende?
73 from DUALGATEMOSFET
aka
The "Epitaxial One"
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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"Perhaps some people who are annoyed by the unpolished operators should get on there with the intention of setting an example for others to follow. Remember that all of us were once "newbies", and it will help you to have a little more understanding. "
There are few people out there setting a better example on the air than WB2WIK is. I just listened to him for an hour last month sometime while I was doing other things in the shack... he basically had a pileup of people who wanted to ragchew with him.
Steve's really a first class op and I think this article is a nice, gentle way for people to learn that they're operating incorrectly and should maybe try to pick up more of the ham radio protocol.
I wouldn't classify anything in this article as "anal". There's a set of correct operating procedures and a set of incorrect operating procedures.
There's a lot of variation allowed within the set of correct operating procedures, but if you really want to be successful at operating short and variable sporadic E openings and other DX activities, you're going to have to do things pretty much by the book.
It's good advice from an A1 op who has the good of the newbies in mind.
73,
Dan
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WA8MEA on June 4, 2007
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Steve said: But leave the CB habits at the door. Listen to what good operators are doing, and do the same thing. It's efficient, and you'll be “welcomed” with open arms.
------------------------------------
On behalf of Steve, I want to apologize for his assumption that you "newbies" have poor operating habits. Or that you all are former CB'ers In fact, what's wrong with CB radio anyway? It's a radio service with some poor operators JUST LIKE AMATEUR RADIO! (You need to listen to Riley Hollingsworth's "Dayton sermon" entitled: "Lighten Up".) Riley makes a good point about most of his "problem children" being Advanced and Extra class hams....
73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 4, 2007
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In my years of listening (only been talking for a year) I have found that there are no standards. Each operator or group of operators has their own protocol. Some are formal, some are not, yet most of them seem to be decent folk.
One particular group I have become involved with on 10 meters ids every 10 minutes but uses first names as far as directing questions or answers. It is about as plain English as you can get.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by 2ARADIO on June 4, 2007
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I agree strongly with the author's point that newbies should respect and learn courteous and sensible operating practices that make operating more pleasant for everyone.
I'm also certainly in favor of their losing any carryover "CBisms" they may have... i.e. "the first personal here is Ralph", "10-4", "yeah, QSL on that", etc. that they may have picked up from the trucker crowd.
By the same token, I'm in also in favor of most of us getting away from some of the corny "hamisms" that tend to make the listening public (or the rest of the family!) think we're a little dated and nerdy at best. Stuff such as "The handle here is Ralph", "What's your QTH, old man?", "Hi-Hi" (used on voice - save it for CW!!!)
The newbies I've heard and respect (and there are plenty of them) are the ones that are simply professional and courteous in their communication, and are open to learn...
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KF4A on June 4, 2007
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Alan, W4LGH said it nicely... Easy come ...Easy Go.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WR8D on June 4, 2007
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His posting is perfectly on target... As are those comments from some here talking about all the cb slang coming at them from many of the new folk.
There's not very many brave enough to correct a newbie. You get the catcalls and the rest of the garbage described above from the long time cber who now feels bigger than life with their new amateur radio license.
We need to handle this in a nice way but it does need to be taken care of. If we let these folks talk on the hambands "uncorrected", in just a short time one will not be able to tell the differance in 11 meters and the hambands...from the stupid terms they use right down to the operating practices they use.
I have zero tolerance for you and your cb talk. You studied just like i did and passed the tests just like the rest of us have. There's no excuse for someone to use cb talk on the hambands. In my area they do it to only piss the older hams off. They become outcasts and hang on certain frequencies on differant bands. All of them sound exactly the same too...nothing but a dumbass freebanding cber, only now most have extra class licenses.
Become an amateur operator or leave the hambands and go back to cb where you belong.
John WR8D
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 4, 2007
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Mike K6AER gave a really good synopsis of the "issues," above.
All protocol has developed for good reasons, no matter the subject. There's a reason that Roberts Rules of Order are still used for meetings...they work, they're efficient, and nobody figured out a better way. There's a reason that our Constitution still stands with very little revision after 225 years.
And there are reasons for the protocol used in ham radio. As hobbyists, we have the flexibility to do what we wish, but results will improve by simply following established format. Results in this case means more contacts, and completed contacts.
As Mike said, there's very good reason to give your name and location immediately in any contact -- as part of the very first transmission, and early on in that transmission. The reasons are simply (i) the data allows the other operator to turn his antenna in the correct direction, which will improve the chances for a complete contact; and (ii) due to changes in propagation, interference or anything else, any contact could end abruptly -- maybe within seconds. If that occurs, at least you've exchanged the required data for a real "contact," and can confirm it via QSL, or use the contact for contest points, or any number of things.
We do things the way we do them because it's what works.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007
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We do things the way we do them because it's what works.
You new guys may eventually learn to understand that the reason the "standard" protocols work is that they are time proven and have been universally adopted.
You'll find this clearly once, if you choose, start DXing. It's one thing to talk radio domestically but quite another once you start DXing with foreign stations (or contesting also).
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 4, 2007
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WR8D
-”They become outcasts and hang on certain frequencies on differant bands.”-
That is legal and within their right to do so.
I have never been a fan of CB slang, don't even know what most of the words mean, but the amateur bands will be changing. Amateur radio is a personal hobby with many different directions to take.
These folks have every right to be there and we have every right to tune somewhere else.
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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"(ii) due to changes in propagation, interference or anything else, any contact could end abruptly -- maybe within seconds. If that occurs, at least you've exchanged the required data for a real "contact," and can confirm it via QSL"
This happened to me just this weekend; a 6m contact with WB0DMA in Missouri.
I dropped my call in after his QRZ, he came back to me with his information, I got his report for me and grid square as he was fading pretty far down. I gave him his report, my grid and name, but when I turned it back over, he was *G O N E* ... he didn't even get it.
So, when he came back up out of the noise, finished working the other guy he had picked up in the interim, I dumped in a "this is N3OX you're 57 in Fox Mike One Eight" and he gave me a report again and we made a real contact... we even got to exchange names before he faded again ;-)
Matter of SECONDS makes or breaks Sporadic E sometime.
No sense in wasting time on this:
Me: "CQ CQ 6 Meters this is N3OX"
KZ0ZZZ: "KZ0ZZZ"
Me: "KZ0ZZZ you're five and nine in Fox Mike One Eight, name is Dan, go ahead"
KZ0ZZZ: "This is KZ0ZZZ KZ0ZZZ My personal is John"
---this silence makes me wonder if he's faded into oblivion or just waiting to say more, I realize it's neither, he's actually turned it back over----
Me: "OK John, can I have a signal report and a grid square or your state, over?"
KZ0ZZZ: "Well, you're real loud into Kansas"
---more silence... oh, that's an OVER again---
Well... OK, it's a quasi-contact, but at this point, I'm gonna go "OK John, thanks for calling in, 73 from N3OX, QRZed?"
Operating without actually turning it over or without actually saying the other guy's call or a signal report or acknowledging some information passed to you is all fine and good if it's just a bunch of you sitting around chatting locally on 10m.
It's no good for making contacts out of the local area on any band.
I think it's worth laying it bare for people to read and think about. I want newbies to call me... it's fun! I also want to be able to really consider it a full ham contact if they want a QSL card, so I don't have to make a judgement call... in the case above, I would know at least that he got my call and we had a little back and forth... so he was actually talking to me. That's good enough for me.
If he'd faded out without the "you're real loud into Kansas" though, I wouldn't have logged him. He EASILY could have been talking to someone else on the frequency at that point. It's the way that sort of propagation works. All of a sudden, guys will be stacked three deep on a frequency in three different places and very few of them can hear each other.
Protocol can allow a bunch of contacts to come out of that... not following it might just lead to confusion and Not-In-Log responses.
Dan
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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"These folks have every right to be there and we have every right to tune somewhere else. "
And we have every right to say, "hey, you should try some of the tried-and-true ham tradition which really helps you make contacts with other countries and when conditions are bad"
I don't have a big problem with CB slang. It bothers me a little but I half-agree with people who say ham slang is practically just as silly.
I do have a big problem with ignoring the well-established flow of a QSO, with ignoring proper ham signal reports, with ignoring the exchange of the important bits of information.
Dan
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 4, 2007
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"In fact, what's wrong with CB radio anyway?"
With 80% of it illegal, and 95% of the ops clueless as to electronics and "the way radio works", I would say "quite a lot"!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 4, 2007
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""Hi-Hi" (used on voice - save it for CW!!!) "
I agree. That one really sounds stoopid. But there's nothing wrong with saying QSY on voice. (Just as a note, however, "what's your QTH?" is redundant. QTH means "What is your location?" Kinda like the plural of "Best wishes".)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W7AIT on June 4, 2007
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HF IS WHERE IT'S AT!
More comment - concern for Newbies to get on HF!
TO THE "HT NEWBIE CROWD": GET AN HF RADIO!
Get a HF rig and get on the HF bands where real ham radio takes place.
Its more than plugging in the rubber ducky, turning on the radio, setting the squelch and talking.
Also remember, the modern HF ham radios are not simple to use. They are no longer “tune it in with the big knob” and “set the volume control” and sit back and listen to someone talk & ragchew like I did back in 1964; today’s radio, you have to worry about setting 10 to 20 controls, computer menus, computer settings properly or it won’t work, especially for exotic modes like PSK and MT63. The run of the mill SSB and CW or FM is tricky enough these days, but when you’re doing digital, a lot of little things can kill the signals. One setting can kill the whole thing.
Sorry, welcome to the 21st century.
However, the use of HT’s has done a great dis-service to ham radio; truly, most new guys only know how to screw in the rubber ducky, turn on the volume control, click the channel and push the PTT.
There’s MUCH MORE to ham radio than that.
The “HT Crowd” has a LOT to learn!"
HF takes a bit more work than a channelized VHF HT / repeater. You need to explore by tuning the radio frequencies, listening to different bands, paying attention to propagation etc - it isn't cut and dried like pushing the ptt on the HT and always getting a guy on the repeater channel or making a call on the telephone..... (don’t EVEN get me going about Echolink, I’ll throw up! Echolink users = polite CB’er to me).
BUT HF IS MUCH MORE FUN!
You have HF privileges, use them! Don’t stay stuck with a darn HT or VHF “base”, get on HF!
PS: Don't worry about basic mistakes, us OF's will cut you some slack, but learn from them ok?
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N5KBP on June 4, 2007
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Steve, Excellent article. I have experienced most of the same on all the hf bands. Overall most of the newbies I have worked have been trying hard to do right and are making a very good contribution to the ham radio. One bad operating habit I have noticed on 40 meters at night is just ending a transmission without saying over to you or equivalent. I'm sure this comes from VHF repeater experience. On a band as noisy as 40 you can't tell when someone unkeys, unless they're 20 over s9. I have just waited a little longer to come back to the ones I could tell unkeyed and ask them if they had turned it over to me. I'm sure eventually with experience they will get it figured out. All us OF's had to do it once.
Marty
N5KBP
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 4, 2007
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W7AIT.
I like your call sign.
-"...most new guys only know how to screw in the rubber ducky, turn on the volume control, click the channel and push the PTT."-
If they are on amateur radio frequencies they should know a lot more than that. They had to have passed at the least the tech exam.
A 2 meter hand held is a great way to break into amateur radio. Sure it's easy but there are plenty of experienced people on 2 meters (and 70 cm) who can answer the new person's questions they will have when setting up an HF station. There is a lot of that going on on our local repeaters.
I still use my 2 meter/70 cm hand held for experimenting with antennas and I keep it with me for emergencies.
Last week I was working on my car and was able to participate in a net without interrupting either activity.
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 4, 2007
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KB1OCC wrote:
...........................................
I'm a "newbie" (licensed 10/2006) who is (or was) planning to exercise my privileges outside of 2m and 70cm once I purchase/build the necessary equipment.
However, after reading the article, I get the feeling that "newbies" are not wanted anywhere on the air. I am fearful of making a "newbie mistake" and causing irreparable harm to the planetary alignment in our solar system or to the space/time continuum.
...........................................
Brian, "I feel your pain." :-) I was first licensed in US amateur radio 7 Mar 07...just a few days short of 51 years since being granted a First 'Phone commercial op license in 1956. :-)
A few I know personally (off-air) are happy for me, a few others are not. I deal with it with a shrug.
...........................................
KB1OCC: "I'm being facetious or course, but please give us "newbies" a break while we learn the ropes. Also please remember that you were once a "newbie" too."
Brian, to hear some of those "big boys" talk, they were NEVER "newbies." They were all smart as they are now when they got their first license during (or even before!) high school. :-) [take that sentence both ways...hi hi]
KB1OCC: "If you hear one of us "newbies" making a mistake, please share your pearls of wisdom accompanied with a side dish of compassion."
In my opinion, LISTENING to what the "big boys" say on the air is the best clue on How It Is Done...and who they say it to (what they say in semi-private nets is not always the same as when making casual QSOs with a CQ). One must emulate Their manner or risk "ex-communication." :-) Often those "big boys" will NOT use their "professional manner" protocol in an amateur radio environment! [amazing, but true] [tsk, what are newbies supposed to do then? :-) ]
I just shine off some of these self-professed "big boys." Being always older than the FCC, I can. :-) Having QSYed my first KW HF rig in 1953, I'm not afraid of them or their Terrific [amateur] Radio Experience and "Tenure". Now, several DO have some excellent ideas on equipment and theory other than derived from old ARRL books and are, in my opinion, very worth listening to. In general, the others are just flashing their radio cop badges and playing ossifer, saying Their Way is the Only Right Way. Pay them little mind and go ahead and ENJOY the hobby. Amateur radio is supposed to be FRIENDLY, not a competitive, contentious and a rigidly-structured pecking-order kind of thing. Sigh.
Not to worry. Stay in amateur radio and you younger folk will become the old timers. There's lots of fun ahead. Do your thing and evolve amateur radio the way you folks want it. Today's "big boys" will, as I, be gone in that later era. Such is life. :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI6LO on June 4, 2007
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Steve has written a well versed article and I think the tone of it is civil and helpful, providing someone wants to take and use it. In the comments, there are also many excellent suggestions. My pet peeve is cute silly phonetics. I hear OT and newbies alike and it just doesn't belong on ham radio. Learn and use the standard phonetics. You'll get more mile out of them than the cute stuff.
I would highly recommend for anyone who has not, newbie or OT, read through the ARRL Operators Handbook (or Manual), to give it a good read. As one gent stated, ham radio has been around nigh on 90 years and in those decades, methods have been tried and proven, traditions have been born and good operator skills have been refined and passed from generation to generation.
Nothing says that the new 'crop' of hams cannot add to those methods, traditions and skills but to blatently ignore what has been accepted over the years to decidely do it 'your own way' goes entirely against the fraternity of ham radio. Read, listen, learn by following accepted examples and even add your own flair, but most of all, participate and enjoy your privledges.
And mentioned, let's try and leave the excess CB baggage at the station when your board the ham radio train. Learn the ham radio jargon and drop the silly CB lingo as much as you can. I have a very good friend who is as country as they come and grew up in the backwoods. He earned a BSEE and retired after many years of service in both industry and Gov't. He's a new Extra (last 5 years - did 5 wpm code) and he tends to use 10-4 a lot when talking on the radio. But he's polite, listens to constructive critisms and I overlook it but have mentioned it to him on several occasions. Problem is it's just ingrained and a hard habit to shake after many years of CB usage. So there are exceptions to every norm.
Again, excellent article Steve. Thanks
Gene KI6LO
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 4, 2007
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N5KBP.
-”One bad operating habit I have noticed on 40 meters at night is just ending a transmission without saying over to you or equivalent.”-
I have noticed that a lot on 80 meters also, and even on 2 meter SSB. It almost seems to be the rule rather than the exception although it usually happens in nets.
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 4, 2007
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KB9CRY posted this in reply to KB1OCC:
..............................
Brian, chill out. You're very welcomed and don't worry about making a mistake. But do your homework and on the air is not the place to be doing the basic learning.
As stated, there are plenty of resources out there to read up and learn the ropes.
And as I've stated and hopefully is taken to heart by all, is on HF now and most definately in the future when the cycle improves, virtually all of your HF transmissions will be copyable by radio ops in foreign countries.
...............................
Geez...what happens if one isn't "professional" in amateur radio? The license is revoked? [no] "They'll never get a QSO in that band again?!?" [again, no] Does Part 97 say that "my transmissions MUST be copyable by foreign radio ops?" No, the regulations state English for IDs and any in between is up to the control operator...I'm not multi-lingual.
KB9CRY: "Again, chill out but do understand the importance of what we're trying to convey. You won't be talking cross town; you'll be playing in the big boys arena."
Oh, dear, sounds like one of the "big boys in da 'hood" making hisself known. :-(
Ahem...some of the "big boys" were the pros on HF a half century ago keeping radio circuits running 24/7 on DX paths regardless of ionospheric conditions, MUFs, and everything but a massive solar flare. Well before commsats and under-ocean fiber-optic cable. I can't claim to be a "big boy" on amateur HF but I've been in and on other radio services for over a half century, getting paid for it. I have NEVER seen such "we are the big boys kind of talk" and general admonishments there as are on computer forums such as this.
Ever been to a social event where there are lots of strangers? Especially in very different lines of work? [my "town" is Los Angeles and the center of movies and TV...a lot different from electronics engineering that I retired from] After the opening introductions, what do you talk about with strangers? Can you keep a conversation going with small talk after that? Amateur radio casual QSOs are a lot like that, after the intial callsign exchange, "signal report", location, and weather, most ("big boys" included) don't seem to have a clue on how to continue. The conversation drifts off and dies rather quickly if one doesn't learn to chit-chat, ask questions instead of launching into some pet diatribe, be sociable instead of one of the (self-described) "big boys." :-( I learned to do that decades ago...by listening to what the other person was saying, getting on their "wavelength" (so to speak), and trying to be conscious of NOT offending the other person, being friendly. It should work the same in amateur radio, on ALL the bands, not just HF.
According to what I read in here and other forums, it does NOT work the same. The self-professed "big boys" seem to OWN the place and have a need to enforce Their Way on everyone. That includes some of the denizens of this "town" on VHF and UHF. They too have this human Territorial Imperative busy at work; it isn't confined to HF.
Now, I'd known all the above before I decided to go-for-broke on a ham license a couple weeks before 23 February 2007 (did it on Sunday, the 25th). Having always been older than the FCC, I just shine off the "big boys of ham HF" when they get all important-like and flashing their badges, issuing stern warnings to us newbies. Replacements for the "big boys" are coming. Ham protocol WILL change over time. If it doesn't sound like it was "supposed to be" as standard a half century ago, well TS. I've had a radio cop tell me that "roger that" isn't what 'we' say in amateur radio...yeah, big infraction...am I supposed to say "fine business old man" a la CW or do a flat-tone "hi hi hi" instead of laughing on voice? Some of that strict protocol is ridiculous. It is NOT "professional" except in "big boys" imaginations.
I say "chill out" yourself. Amateur radio is supposed to be FRIENDLY. It isn't all about competition or ultra-strict "professional" protocol. Many have forgotten that in these forums.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB1LKR on June 4, 2007
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Too, lets teach proper technique by avoid excess ham slang/lingo as we correct the CB slang/lingo:
Use international standard phonetics: Kilo Romeo Alpha, not: "Kilowatt Radio America", "King Radio Adam" etc.
QTH [when using Morse Code] is your current location (or query as to the other's current location) which may not be your primary residence!
As others have already pointed out: .... .. .... .. is to Morse Code as "Ha!" or "Ha ha!" is to spoken English.
Last, be patient if they need a little prompting, with luck the propagation will last, if not, so it goes.
Remember we were all new once.
Thanks Steve, I always enjoy your posts.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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Now that I've listened to Steve for a while on the air, I think it's hilarious when people make comments like this:
"...am I supposed to say "fine business old man" a la CW or do a flat-tone "hi hi hi" instead of laughing on voice? Some of that strict protocol is ridiculous. It is NOT "professional" except in "big boys" imaginations. "
There's a difference between (somewhat goofy) tradition and effective information passing on the air. Steve, more than many I've heard, knows the difference. Len, I'm sure you know the difference too. Some newbies who don't have a fifty year radio career don't, in fact, know the difference.
Whatever you do, you have to exchange some info over the airwaves... doesn't matter if it's signal reports and grids or just what's going on in your life... there are effective ways to talk to people over the radio and ineffective ones.
It's just stupid to say "hi hi" on phone. I agree, it's voice, I laugh. I've said "hi hi" before, it's because I got caught up in other people doing it. I stopped. I didn't stop giving name, QTH, signal report first, though. I like to get through!
You have to find the line between dumb ham jargon and useful ham protocol if you're going to successfully communicate with many hams over the years.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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I should say goofy jargon not goofy tradition.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by AG4RQ on June 4, 2007
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Steve, thanks for another constructive and informative article. There's a lot of very good information and advice here.
73 de Mark
AG4RQ
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N7KRT on June 4, 2007
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What happened to doing a little research when starting a new endeavour, be it a hobby or whatever? It seems to me that the ARRL Operating manual is still published, and basic operating procedures for all aspects of ham radio are in the Handbook, and on dozens of internet sites. I am 100% in favor of guiding new folks in proper operating etiquette, but I feel that they should show at least a minimum amount of interest by doing a little self-study.
Jeff
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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"but I feel that they should show at least a minimum amount of interest by doing a little self-study. "
Which they do on the internet by doing things like reading eHam articles.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N0EGS on June 4, 2007
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You have to walk before you can run,Please have a little patience as i am sure someone had to have some with you nuff-sed!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 4, 2007
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N7KRT.
-”What happened to doing a little research when starting a new endeavour...”-
How did they get their license?
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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Getting a license prepares you very little for actually being on the air. That's been true ever since there were licenses.
Unless we had a ham equivalent of a driving test, testing wouldn't do anything, really, for preparing you for a contact.
Dan
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by STRAIGHTKEY on June 4, 2007
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I must live in some magical HF paradise wonderland because I've never had anyone give me a "personal"...or I need to get on 10 meter phone more :-)
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC0KJF on June 4, 2007
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Hi
I guess I would be referred to as one of the newbies,
I haven't made a contact on ten meters as of yet, I have been getting all my station and equipment in place, have been listening for a while though. I can remember my first 2 meter contact and was as nervous as a demon in church, forgot my call sign and other mistakes but the fella I contacted was patient and helped me through it .
What I'm trying to say is please be patient all us newbies believe it or not are trying and learning.
thanks.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI6EAA on June 4, 2007
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"I just wonder what "incentive" we will give them as a reason to stay the next time.
At some point, every horse will leave the dilapidated barn no matter how sweet the hay.
Well said Steve, but the incentive has to come from within. Everyone is a freshman and they must understand that you're not going to be welcomed with open arms into the new fraternity until you've proven your mettle; it's just the way it is."
===========
The way WHAT is? WHAT Fraternity? Is 75m at night a form of hazing?
This isn't the Moose Lodge, it is a hobby of diverse people licensed by their government to utilize specific public airwaves within a set of guidelines.
No one has to "accept" me or even talk to me.
Unless, just maybe, there IS a secret ham society lurking out somewhere -- people with weird hats and odd handshakes that only the OT Hams know about. Hmm, I did see a few strange, unkept folks at that last Ham swap meet... was that a group of them?
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 4, 2007
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Had a feeling the comments on Pill boxes and heaters meant amplifier but again wondered if thats what he mean't by the comment.
I thought linears were not allowed on 10 or is that just the sell of them.
Anyways the new hams should be elmered on the proper procedure of ops on the airwaves and to leave the CB world behind if thats what they're planning here.
As for the comment on overseas Hams I been living in the Fareast for over 22 years and the hams I have met on the airwaves are pretty good, I do get some pile ups at times on 6 meters. Mostly about 25 at a time and many from Japan,Korea,and Hong Kong.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 4, 2007
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I personally agree with Alan on his comments,I for one wasnt too trilled with the codeless license and still not happy. I just Hope the new Hams learn not only the good ops but also the code as its a great mode to be on.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K0KJL on June 4, 2007
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You should hear some of the stuff on 28.385 in the evenings, quite funny.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KX8N on June 4, 2007
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"Today's kids are no dummies--but on the other hand, todays kids seek and get instant gratification, something we seldom got when I was in school. "
That's just a matter of perspective, though. My grandmother didn't have a television growing up. My mother had a black and white television whe she was growing up. We had a color television when I was growing up. That didn't mean I was gifted, upper class, or had anything given to me. That's just the way it was. Sure, kids have cellphones and computers. So do their parents. They are just growing up in their surroundings with what's available.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KE3WD on June 4, 2007
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Well, the old "canned" CW tests were always QSOs in which the signal report exchange, QTH, name, temperature if not the wx report, rig and antenna were usually part and parcel of the copy -- and the answers to the test questions.
Remembering back (okay, WAY back... ) these CW practice QSOs, which back then were records or tapes, gave me my first inkling of what to say and how to say it. Matter of fact, the dance we do on phone is merely derived from the CW exchange anyway.
Can't blame the no-code general if the test had very little in the way of getting that across in it.
Perhaps what is needed today is a revamp of part of the test question pool into a more complete way of getting that kind of information and its importance to ham radio operation across?
Hmm. An aural part of the test consisting of recorded information from the other party plus a recording into a PTT mike of the response in which they are required to get in the "required" traditional exchange?
Times change and any living language will change with the times.
I suspect that some of the CB jargon will creep in and become part of tomorrow's tradition for a new generation.
In some cases, it did long time ago. I've heard plenty on the Sideband nets on 40 and 75 over the years.
If the other op says he wants to "put the fire in the wire" or use "personal" instead of "name" in a domestic QSO, I personally don't have much problem with it.
If they start up with the idiotic keydown contests, time to get Riley Hollingsworth to head up a posse.
Welcome the new guys and gals.
Help them.
If you can't help them, and there will always be those kinds, new or old, that's life.
.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KG6VQC on June 4, 2007
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While I agree somewhat with article it sounded a bit elitist to me. I wonder by mistake were you on 27.555 mhz :) It saddens me that I continually read the same snide remarks from the peanut gallery aimed at people who are green and know no better instead of encouraging new operators you are discouraging them. Everyone most rember the lump in your throat as you made your very first call and how awkward it all felt give us a break and we soon will become good Ham operators we are the future of Amateur radio and we all need to do whats best for amateur radio!
73s or keep on truckin
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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"No one has to "accept" me or even talk to me. "
If no one talks to you, it's going to be a very boring hobby for you...
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 4, 2007
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"I thought linears were not allowed on 10 or is that just the sell of them."
Linears have always been allowed on 10m, within certain limits. The sale was restricted because of so many being converted to 11m, but most manufacturers would sell you a kit to add 10m back in IF you had a ham license. That was perfectly legal.
My own Kenwood TL-922A has had 10m added back, and the front panel changed to indicate that.
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by K4JF on June 4, 2007
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"They are no longer “tune it in with the big knob” and “set the volume control” and sit back and listen to someone talk & ragchew like I did back in 1964;"
They didn't do that back in '64, or even '74. You had to adjust your preselector on the receiver. Then you had to tune and load your transmitter by dipping the meter, then do it again with your amp if you were using one. And do it again if you changed frequency over a certain amount in any band or when changing bands. And the frequency change required was different for different rigs, even of the same brand. And, no autotuner those days, you had to adjust your tuner manually.
Some things are trickier today - especially in the digital modes, but basic HF rigs on CW or SSB are much easier now. That's one reason I got rid of all my bottle equipment (but I do miss the sound of a Collins receiver).
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 4, 2007
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"Geez...what happens if one isn't "professional" in amateur radio?"
Then you are legal. "Professional" isn't allowed in "Amateur" radio. By law.
(That's another difference between ham and CB.)
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by KB3BYW on June 4, 2007
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This was a great article and some great posts too. I was sick of seeing the fights between the "no coders" and the "coders" after any article or comment about CW, it is pointless. I am also encouraged to see so many long time hams are saying we want and are will to help the new hams. I am a no code general now, after almost 10 years in the hobby. I have only worked HF during a field day years ago and after reading some of the other posts on this site I was frightened to every work HF again, it is nice to see that there are some friendly operators out there. I have my ten meter station almost complete so I will have to give the old college try. And I think KE3WD is correct, the test should have more information in them it would bother me. If the tests were harder I myself would know more of what I need to know, especially when it comes down to proper operation. also if we (new to HF hams) are not operating correctly please tell us, I at least would like to know.
Just my two cents
KB3BYW, Ross
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by W1CTN on June 4, 2007
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Steve this was another fine article, keep up the good work. I would also like to invite all the "newbies' to get on the air and try out their new privileges.
Have lots of fun and fill up your log with new contacts and friends. But, and there is always a but, do it in the manner that is consistent with good amateur operating practices.
I think Steve's article left out one important item that all of us old ex-novices (that's what us 50's/60's newbies were known as!) read in QST on a regular basis.
It was an article that was captioned "Your Novice Accent". It was repeated every couple of years and gave a clear and concise outline of how you should properly operate on the air.
It centered around CW operation, as most of us were newly minted Novice CW ops, but what the article really spoke of was HOW TO OPERATE CORRECTLY. It was easily adapted to phone operation.
Newbies, and some of us old ops, can go to this link
http://www.vanityhq.com/articles/novaccnt.html to see what I'm writing about.
The ARRL or maybe Steve can write a 21st century version of it !!
One post on this thread mentioned leaving the CB baggage at the door...
Yes, please do that !!! We have our own ham lingo that separates us from 11 meters and you should use it. It's our accepted WORLDWIDE language.
If any of you "newbies" have an operating question when you are on the air, just ask for help. One of the greatest aspects of this hobby is the help one op will give another.
I been operating the last few weeks on 10 meters and have had a blast working the ops with the new privileges. I have politely instructed some ops how to use the correct procedures and I hope I have helped and not hindered anyones fun on the air.
Use common sense, listen to the good ops and emulate what they do and it will only enhance your operating experience.
Steve, WB2WIK, is a real fine op and a great on the air Elmer. He only wants to help. Thanks again Steve for a fun and informative article.
Just my .02 cents
Dave W1CTN, age 51
(my Elmer's/Uncle's call...hear around the world since 1921 as 1CTN)
ex WN1LRV, WN1UUD and WA1UUD
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by W7ETA on June 4, 2007
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Hams are even allowed to use non-linears.
Is it ture that they call it class C after CW?
Steve's article has reminded me that when I was Novice, I answered a CQ with the other ops call. Guess I got outa the habit by working tooo much DX. Imagine that. A ham posting he might have worked too much DX!
73
Bob
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by MIC205 on June 4, 2007
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I THINK IT MEANS AN OLD TUBE, ENGLISH CALL THE VALVES
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI6EAA on June 4, 2007
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"No one has to "accept" me or even talk to me. "
If no one talks to you, it's going to be a very boring hobby for you...
========
True.
My point was claiming a new ham needs to be "accepted" into an unknown and undefined "fraternity" within a group as big and diverse as ham radio is a high form of snobbery, not consistent with the ideals of ham radio as I understand them. I do not know why someone would say this and others would defend the position.
Of course, hams form nets with others like them. I have listened to some nets, it is clear I would not fit in, and have not tried. I can respect their desire to continue friendships and contacts they have had for years. I move on and make other contacts.
As I said earlier, the hams I met on the air have generally been very nice and have helped me when asked.
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by MIC205 on June 4, 2007
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I think (fire bottle)means o'l vacume-tube,and the
folks from UK,Brits, call them Valves. I hope this
explains it
73,to all!
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by AE6YB on June 4, 2007
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Just my 2 cents, but, I think some of the problem may lie with this...there is a fellow in my area who runs classes and test sessions (I'm sure there are probably others who do this too). For a fee, he holds a 5 or 6 hour class, where he feeds the students the right answers to the tests. Then they take the test and usually pass. (By the way, he has been doing a banner business since the code requirement was dropped). I heard he has a 98% passing rate. The only problem is that the students haven't learned anything. If they took the time to read the General Class Manual, they would be familiar with the proper operating procedures and the many more important pieces of information they should know before operating their radios. There is a certain amount of responsibility that goes along with having an Amateur radio license. There is probably nothing that can be done about it. I would assume that it is legal - you just have to pass the test, but I think he is doing the Amateur radio community a great disservice. Like I said, just my 2 cents.
Will, AE6YB
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by N0AH on June 4, 2007
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All the newbiews had been on 10M for a number of years...............is this an April 1st post?
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 4, 2007
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N3OX wrote:
................................
Now that I've listened to Steve for a while on the air, I think it's hilarious when people make comments like this:
"...am I supposed to say "fine business old man" a la CW or do a flat-tone "hi hi hi" instead of laughing on voice? Some of that strict protocol is ridiculous. It is NOT "professional" except in "big boys" imaginations. "
................................
I am happy you are amused.
...............................
N3OX: "There's a difference between (somewhat goofy) tradition and effective information passing on the air. Steve, more than many I've heard, knows the difference. Len, I'm sure you know the difference too."
..................................
Not necessarily. I've already been called names on the ham bands. <shrug> Goes with the territory.
...................................
N3OX: "Whatever you do, you have to exchange some info over the airwaves... doesn't matter if it's signal reports and grids or just what's going on in your life... there are effective ways to talk to people over the radio and ineffective ones."
..................................
Yes, I do believe you are correct on "effective ways." Each radio service has their own. Including the US military. Been those places, done those things, used those radios. I've already been told, in no uncertain terms, well before getting my own ham license, that ham radio protocol is the ONLY one...that said by old-timers who've never communicated over any other radio service but ham radio. :-(
..................................
N3OX: "You have to find the line between dumb ham jargon and useful ham protocol if you're going to successfully communicate with many hams over the years."
..................................
LIFE will teach you how to get along with people effectively. NO license needed for that. No Dave Sumner editorials in QST are needed for that. Not even an autographed first-edition copy of "Now You're Talking."
Everyone should enunciate clearly, crisply, concisely when making first contact. That's a truism in every radio service, about the ONLY common one. From first contact on, if you can't handle small-talk in trying to get to know a stranger, it's best to use the ham radio only for contests or the impersonal mode of an old on-off keying mode which shall remain nameless. There's NO real approved, "official" protocol for whatever goes on after the first contact and the initial exchange in amateur radio. Should there be? I don't think so but all these old-timers are so adamant about using approved, official protocol that it's surprising it isn't said out loud in the 1928 Amateur's Code.
You may think I'm way too harsh on all these old-timers, the gurus of hamland haunting this particular enclave. No. My point of view is different. I've seen just about all the different "do-it-my-way-its-the-only-right-way" pusher-around types there are in life. Ham radio seems to have more than its share. At least on these 'discussion' venues. They can't really influence my opinions or desires. <shrug>
Okay, I'll have to rummage around the recesses of my garage and retrieve an old 8-foot whip antenna left over from a CB in a '61 Impala convertible, mount that on a metal pole and fire it up on 10m. As a newbie I guess I'm only 'supposed' to operate on that band. Good band. Wide, plenty of room. Keeps the newbies off of the "big boys" territory on lower-frequency bands. Yes, sir! <pop-to, salute>
73, Len AF6AY (my first very-personal ham call)
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by K6LHA on June 4, 2007
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N3OX: "I should say goofy jargon not goofy tradition."
There's a difference? :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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by WG7G on June 4, 2007
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N3OX.
-”Getting a license prepares you very little for actually being on the air.”-
But studying the rules and regulations in preparation for the exam tells you all you need to know to make a proper contact.
Amateur radio is a personal hobby. There are many different kinds of contacts and the way people use amateur radio. A husband calling his wife on the radio would be done differently than someone who is contest-DXing.
73 Mike
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by K6LHA on June 4, 2007
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K4JF wrote:
..................................
"Geez...what happens if one isn't "professional" in amateur radio?"
Then you are legal. "Professional" isn't allowed in "Amateur" radio. By law.
.................................
Sorry, but that's not quite correct. If you peruse Part 97 closely you will find that, under certain defined circumstances, one CAN accept money (definition of being professional) for service involving US amateur radio. It IS the law. It was also on a couple of test questions I had on 25 February 2007.
................................
N4JF: "(That's another difference between ham and CB.)"
Citizens Band Radio Service is LEGALLY defined in Part 95, Title 47 CFR. US Amateur Radio Service is legally defined in Part 97, Title 47 CFR. THAT is the only difference.
CB never had any test associated with getting a pro forma license beginning in 1958. That 'license' was eventually dropped from CB regulations. For 49 years I've heard some hams bitching and moaning about CB as if it was evil incarnate. BFD. FORTY-NINE years of existance is bound to have a singular radio service develop its OWN jargon. What was "lost" to CB was a little sliver of a band that once was allocated to US radio amateurs...and barely used by them. By 1979, the international amateur radio community got MORE bands on HF with MORE bandspace there.
73, Len AF6AY (my first ham callsign and very personal)
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by WG7G on June 4, 2007
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AE6YB.
-”For a fee, he holds a 5 or 6 hour class, where he feeds the students the right answers to the tests. Then they take the test and usually pass.”-
Many clubs in my area do that but the classes are usually several days long. Fees can be charged for study materials. Are you sure this isn't being done by a club.
A test session must have at least 3 VEs present. It can't be done by just one person.
73 Mike
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by N6AJR on June 4, 2007
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nice article, except for the lack of even one instance of mention of Fan Dipole, but I'll let you slide.
I got on 10 the other night and work 10 or 12 new folks at 28.400 in about 15 minutes. Same way, thank for the QSO, any one else?? and again..
but remember there is always the california QSO party. the only time when you actually want to talk to yet another 6 station.
keep up the good work Steve and I'll see you in the next contest
73 and gud dx
tom
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 4, 2007
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KE7HFQ says:
"Amateur radio is a personal hobby. There are many different kinds of contacts and the way people use amateur radio. A husband calling his wife on the radio would be done differently than someone who is contest-DXing."
I'm not saying different, and I wouldn't say Steve's article is either. The original article brings up a situation where callers can't actually tell the difference. If you're on the radio with people you talk to every day, you can let a lot go unsaid... but when you make a random HF contact, you're not going to have much success unless you do what's expected...
An example is turning the conversation over to the other person. I don't care if you say "over" or "back to you" or "what do *you* think about cast iron cookware, Dan?" when you give it back to me, but it's often useful to say *something*. Not always required, but important for the first part of a random HF contact.
AF6AY says:
"Everyone should enunciate clearly, crisply, concisely when making first contact. That's a truism in every radio service, about the ONLY common one."
That's a key ingredient, but I think the structure of QSLing and ham awards and so forth makes it worthwhile to add the requirement that you exchange signal reports. Not everyone cares about those things, often it's a stupid formality (you're 5 and 9 what's your call again, please repeat three times) but unless you feel the need to actively remove yourself from someone's Worked All States or VUCC award, give 'em a report, and do it sooner rather than later.
Name and location are just nice ways to start a conversation... couple basic pieces of info in a ham contact.
I find DXing to be a very worthwhile pursuit, even though it's just pinging different spots on the globe most of the time. Sometimes you really hit it off with someone and can have a real conversation, but other times, you're just looking for an acknowledgement of reception of your signal after you've spent time working on your station so that you can contact far-flung places.
A strict protocol is useful there. You send identifying information, some info about signal quality, get some acknowledgement packets... complete contact.
But Len, I agree with you about actual conversation... it is a person on the other end... talk to 'em like people. Totally scripted "protocol" bound contacts between two fluent speakers of English with very strong signals to each other are just ... weird.
AF6AY says: "There's NO real approved, "official" protocol for whatever goes on after the first contact and the initial exchange in amateur radio. Should there be? I don't think so but all these old-timers are so adamant about using approved, official protocol that it's surprising it isn't said out loud in the 1928 Amateur's Code"
I haven't really run afoul of these guys... I feel like they hang out on 75m and 160m and the low end of the 20m phone band, think they're broadcasters and mostly like to hear their own voices as they take themselves too seriously.
I don't bother with them.
I also would just walk right past a room of guys sitting up real straight in their chairs hemming and hawing and saying "you there, young man, you don't know the first thing about cast iron cookware... ehhmmm *splutter*"
Their protocol is not what I'm thinking about... I'm thinking about a sensible passing of a few bits of information that are considered to be standard ham-contact fare just in case the band takes a dive.
Ham radio isn't all about making conversation... some of it is just about making *contact* and there's a mutually agreed upon minimum requirement for that that not everyone understands.
73,
Dan
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W8LGZ on June 5, 2007
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I love the way that when someone who has been in the hobby for a good while gives good, constructive criticism; a lot of, NOT ALL, but a lot of "newbies" instantly go on the defensive. Even those who may have worked in another communications venue for years need to learn the proper protocol for Amateur Radio.
Just because you "did it this way" where you came from, doesn't mean it's "the right way" here. Learn the rules (procedures), lose the "I know what I'm doing but I've only been in the hobby a few months" attitude. You had to "learn the rules" in other areas of life...same thing goes here!!
Jim - W8LGZ
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KA2DDX on June 5, 2007
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hmmmmmmmm.......newbies? or bootleggers? After all, this is ten meters we are talking about.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB1OOO on June 5, 2007
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As a newbie, I really appreciate articles like this one. WB2WIK always takes the time to respond in the cw forum and repeats himself--without complaining--when people post the same questions over and over.
W1CTN: Thanks for the great article http://www.vanityhq.com/articles/novaccnt.html. It seems that the "basic operating" section under "new to ham radio?" doesn't have 100% correct operating procedures for cw (perhaps also for voice)? It would be great to update and make that section more accurate. It's also worthy of a direct link rather than having to go through "New to Ham Radio?"
Tnx,
Marc
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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""Professional" isn't allowed in "Amateur" radio. By law.
.................................
Sorry, but that's not quite correct. If you peruse Part 97 closely you will find that, under certain defined circumstances, one CAN accept money (definition of being professional) for service involving US amateur radio. It IS the law. It was also on a couple of test questions I had on 25 February 2007. "
That there are certain exceptions, such as a teacher engaging in ham radio on the job, none of those exceptions make a ham radio operator professional.
My statement stands. With certain non-professional exceptions, ham radio is AMATEUR.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 5, 2007
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K4JF Thanks for the reply on the amps. I do recall something about those amps but on my side of the world I seldom use them. Most of the years past I usually get by without em, As they usually cause TVI in my area and have to keep the peace there.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KD8FXM on June 5, 2007
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Okay, being a long time Network Engineer and Internet user, this reminds me of when AOL opened their network to IRC and all of the AOLers were basically newbies to IRC. They were using their AOL slang and basically all of the Internet Veterans complained about them. But, eventually, the signal to noise ratio balanced out and the "AOLers" were either assimilated or went back to their "chatrooms" on AOL.
If you just give us Newbs a chance, I promise we'll make you OTs proud...eventually. Especially if you give us sound advice and gentle guidance.
73
Mike
KD8FXM
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 5, 2007
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I promise we'll make you OTs proud...eventually. Especially if you give us sound advice and gentle guidance.
Mike I'm sure you all will do us proud; we are all together in this.
One gripe though, is that whenever an article like this is written, there will always be those who complain about being patient, etc etc.
Some of what Steve has mentioned in his article, IMHO, is very basic stuff that should have been taken care prior to keying a mike. Remember, we all are on a global stage on HF so please take to time to try to get the basics right the first time. And yes, the solar system will not stop if one flubs up, but crassness has no place on the global scale. You are representing your country and if you value that then you will take the time.
Finally, the learning process has to be two way. Yes we have to be patient with the newbies but the onus is on the newbies to be receptive to the corrections and ask if they got it right rather than waiting for someone to correct them.
Your Amateur license is a priviledge, not a right.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W8LGZ on June 5, 2007
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If you just give us Newbs a chance, I promise we'll make you OTs proud...eventually. Especially if you give us sound advice and gentle guidance.
**********************
I couldn't agree more, Mike. I think that's exactly what the original poster was doing. Unfortuneately, some "Newbs" see ANY constructive criticism as being slammed or bashed when that's simply NOT the case. Listen, Learn & Enjoy! Welcome aboard!
Jim - W8LGZ
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB1OOO on June 5, 2007
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Just a clarification on my previous post:
> It seems that the "basic operating" section under "new to ham radio?"
> doesn't have 100% correct operating procedures for cw (perhaps also
> for voice)? It would be great to update and make that section more
> accurate. It's also worthy of a direct link rather than having to go
> through "New to Ham Radio?"
I was referring to the link here at eham in the left panel.
Marc
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"K4JF Thanks for the reply on the amps. I do recall something about those amps but on my side of the world I seldom use them. Most of the years past I usually get by without em, As they usually cause TVI in my area and have to keep the peace there."
You're welcome. I have one, too, but also rarely use it. My usual use is to "bust a pileup" and get on out of the way. To reduce QRM, in other words. For most of casual operating, even DX, it simply isn't necessary.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"If you just give us Newbs a chance, I promise we'll make you OTs proud...eventually. Especially if you give us sound advice and gentle guidance.
73
Mike
KD8FXM "
Mike, that is EXACTLY the right attitude. Welcome to the bands!
73
Jim
K4JF
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"It seems that the "basic operating" section under "new to ham radio?" doesn't have 100% correct operating procedures for cw (perhaps also for voice)?"
The only errors I saw were in stating that a code test was required for HF operation. That's just outdated.
The CW procedures shown are correct, as far as they go, which is beginner level. Same for the voice section, except that the calling CQ portion isn't quite correct (not 3x3). But the procedure shown won't get anyone upset.
Some good advice for a newcomer there.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KF4HR on June 5, 2007
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Even if Newbee's verbiage or terms aren't perfect, I always enjoy hearing newly licensed amateurs on the air.
Perhaps it's hard to remember, but all of us were... at one time or another, "newbees"! Argh!!! Yep, it's hard to believe, but we weren't born "amateur smart!" Sorry folks, 'tis true! We all went through the same basic learning curves. Our licenses were (are) just a license to learn; with ham "lingo and qso standardization" are just a couple of things we pick up along the way.
No need to slam the newbees folks, they will catch on; just like we all did. Actually, sometimes I find newbee qso's more interesting since they sometimes don't follow the same ol' boiler plate conversions (refreshing). And sometimes it's interesting to see our hobby from a newbee's perspective.
Reference Alex's comment (Mr. SSB - nocall). Your post, certainly proves your own point! I'm sure if you keep up the good work; someone, somewhere, will admire your great intelligence and savy. Be brave. Use your call. (It helps people create their blacklist's.)
KF4HR
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC9EOT on June 5, 2007
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What do you mean? This guy is 100% right! Look we all make mistakes and we can all learn from each other. He is not ripping anyone he is just pointing out a fact and is doing so in a proper manner. If your want to be an Amateur Radio Operator then do it 100% and the best you can. That means you use your call sign and name not "this is JackRabbit joe bob" or some other cb type call sign. This is the big league. Nothing wrong with CB if thats what your like to do but do on the CB frequencies.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB1OOO on June 5, 2007
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> The only errors I saw were in stating that a code test was required for
> HF operation. That's just outdated.
>
> The CW procedures shown are correct, as far as they go, which is
> beginner level. Same for the voice section, except that the calling CQ
> portion isn't quite correct (not 3x3). But the procedure shown won't get
> anyone upset.
shouldn't QTH be given before op's name? (see refs 1 & 2 below)
shouldn't SK be given before final identification not after? (see refs 1 & 3 below)
references:
1. http://www.vanityhq.com/articles/novaccnt.html
2. http://www.eham.net/articles/15919
3. http://www.eham.net/forums/cw/5426
So maybe it's nitpicking but people will stray from official rules; if the rules are incorrectly documented, that will take them even further away.
What do you mean by beginner level? What would expert level be other than learning abbreviations/Q codes and emergency protocol?
Marc
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N0AH on June 5, 2007
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I always thought tht on CB, we refer to them as channels unles of course, gasp, you are talking about Freebanders hanging out on the Alpha Tango call frequency of 27.555 USB........you know, there was nothing wrong in leaving them all down there.......
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W5TD on June 5, 2007
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"Many of you have not spent any time with today's young people. They are generally smarter that you can possibly imagine. Pick up a High School Biology or Math textbook. You will be amazed."
Not at the college where I teach. We recently had to add a remedial remedial remedial math class, because too many students were failing the remedial remedial math.
One problem today is that people are waaaayyy to sensitive. Trying to teach someone proper operating techniques or offering some constructive criticism is seen as a bad thing, like we are trying to run new operators off, etc.
73s John W5TD
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N0ZLD on June 5, 2007
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What strikes me as odd is Amateur Radio ops get a little agitated with CB lingo but fail to realize that "we" have lingo all our own as well...
Heard on SSB and seen all over the internet:
73 = Goodbye
QTH = home/location
QRM = static noise
Handle = name
Machine = repeater
QRO = high power
QSL = I heard you/Acknowledgement
Ticket = license
What your really saying is, "This isn't CB, don't bring your CB lingo. Your not in amateur radio, use amateur radio lingo"
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N0ZLD on June 5, 2007
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Correction:
"...Your in amateur radio, use amateur radio lingo"
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by AE6YB on June 5, 2007
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KE7HFQ,
It's not a club, the fellow I spoke of holds these classes in other cities around Northern Ca. too. I believe he does have other VEs with him at least for the test and possibly for the class. I know two Techs who took the class for the General class license. One passed and the other didn't. Both very nice guys, but, the one who passed, doesn't seem to know any more than he did before he took the test. I don't mind helping them out with questions and such, but, I have noticed this lack of knowlege of procedures and theory. Just an observation.
Will, AE6YB
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by 2ARADIO on June 5, 2007
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This is one of the most encouraging threads I've read on eHam, when I see that a few others think that stuff like "hi-hi", "handle here is Ed", and "fine business old man" on voice is just as cornball as "My personal is Ed", "10-4" and "We gone!". (When signing off.) I'll admit to a fondness for "73", as a friendly ham tradition, best wishes sort of thing that doesn't make us appear too nerdy.
I might have been the first to use the word professional, to describe how we ought to sound, and by that I meant that we ought to sound as efficient, courteous and...well professional, as any professional communicator. It certainly doesn't violate any law of ham radio to sound "professional"!
I've heard colleagues with advanced degrees put on a Southern twang and adopt a bunch of corny CB'isms when they use the CB radio they put in their car for a road trip - and that just isn't how the amateur service, or any service that prides itself on good operating habits and, yup, professionalism, should sound....
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N7RAC on June 5, 2007
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In the imortal words of "Pogo", comic strip...."I have met the enemy, and he is us"
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 5, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by N0ZLD on June 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
What strikes me as odd is Amateur Radio ops get a little agitated with CB lingo but fail to realize that "we" have lingo all our own as well...
Heard on SSB and seen all over the internet:
73 = Goodbye
QTH = home/location
QRM = static noise
Handle = name
Machine = repeater
QRO = high power
QSL = I heard you/Acknowledgement
Ticket = license<
::Just because you've heard this on SSB and seen it all over the internet doesn't make it correct. I see drivers making turns without using signals every day; doesn't make them right, either. You won't hear me using any of these things on voice modes, with the exception of "ticket," since "ticket" = "license" almost worldwide, irrespective of hobby or application. A pilot's license is also a ticket and this is common use. The others you list, especially the CW abbreviations like QTH, QRM, QRO, QSL, are for CW use. That some old time hams pulled them over into voice usage is curious, but doesn't make it proper. I don't use them on voice modes and wouldn't encourage anyone else to.
>What your really saying is, "This isn't CB, don't bring your CB lingo. Your not in amateur radio, use amateur radio lingo"<
::Not really. What I'm really saying is, "you've stepped up into the big league of licensed radio operation, now act like it."
-WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N4SL on June 5, 2007
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The best part about having more licensees on 10m is when the sunspots come back and 10m is wide open, we'll have more licensed hams to crowd out the freebanders.
I got into ham radio when the novices were still limited to narrow subbands of CW-only and 75W crystal controlled transmitters and look back on it very fondly but it does make me laugh a little, too.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"1. shouldn't QTH be given before op's name?
2. shouldn't SK be given before final identification not after?"
1. It doesn't matter whether QTH or name is first. I usually give the name first, unless the QTH is significant to the other op (as in when he is hunting states or counties). It seems friendlier that way.
2. Absolutely not. "K" means "go ahead"; it is inviting the other op to transmit. You shouldn't send anything after that. "SK" is the equivalent, except it is ending the QSO. Nothing should be sent after it either. When I hear SK from the other op in a QSO, I am immediately free to move away from the frequency, call someone else, or call CQ. Immediately.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"What do you mean by beginner level? What would expert level be other than learning abbreviations/Q codes and emergency protocol?"
By beginner, I mean the basics you should know BEFORE going on the air. There is lots more, including what you mentioned and much more. But they can all (except emergency procedures) be absorbed by simply getting on the air, operating and listening.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"Correction:
"...Your in amateur radio, use amateur radio lingo""
Correction to the correction:
"You're in amateur radio, use amateur radio lingo." :o)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"What strikes me as odd is Amateur Radio ops get a little agitated with CB lingo but fail to realize that "we" have lingo all our own as well...
Heard on SSB and seen all over the internet:
73 = Goodbye
QTH = home/location
QRM = static noise
Handle = name
Machine = repeater
QRO = high power
QSL = I heard you/Acknowledgement
Ticket = license "
Of course we have our own lingo. EVERY hobby/avocation and vocation has. Nothing wrong with ANY of the above.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC2IJI on June 5, 2007
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Can't complain here. I've also been "on the side" (couldn't resist !) for a few years, and now that I have a General, I've been treated with courtesy by all.
Of course, if one listens before one speaks, it works really well in ham radio and life as well.
For those who have residual CB lingo issues, a POLITE suggestion would work wonders. I had conversations in the NYC area on 2m simplex with guys who were "formerly of eleven meters" and my polite suggestions were normally accepted.
I'm still amazed at what I can do with 20m and 17m...and isn't that what this hobby is all about ?
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by 2ARADIO on June 5, 2007
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I think "ticket" for license, or "machine" for repeater isn't weird ham lingo, it's pretty universal... Likewise, some use of Q signals for things like describing a rig as a "QRP rig" or saying "I like QRP operation." is Ok, in my opinion. It's the guys who start every transmission with "QSL" that drive me up the wall... somehow the CB'er's picked up this habit - I don't think it started out in the ham world, used in quite this (annoying) way.
I guess we all have things that annoy us.. bottom line is that I agree with the author - newbies should try to learn what the "best practices" are, that come with their new license, and we veterans should do our best to welcome them while also mentoring them. Nuff said!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KX8N on June 5, 2007
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"What strikes me as odd is Amateur Radio ops get a little agitated with CB lingo but fail to realize that "we" have lingo all our own as well..."
Yeah, we do, but get on 11 meters and use terms such as "QTH", "QSO", or give someone a 59 signal report, and see how long they tolerate that.
Everyone has their own lingo for each service, but that lingo should stay in the service it's intended for. Law enforcement uses different phonetics than we do, but that doesn't make it proper for us to use it.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 5, 2007
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AE6YB.
-"I don't mind helping them out with questions and such, but, I have noticed this lack of knowlege of procedures and theory."-
I don't know what the percentage is but some people come into amateur radio already knowing theory and some come in having had to learn just enough theory to pass the exams. Those who already know theory will be ok but I think clubs should take a larger responsibility in continuing education for those who are weak on theory. Clubs could also help educate everyone on different operating protocols.
It also wouldn't hurt to have formal educational nets dealing with various subjects. I have heard these subjects discussed now and then on nets and have heard of educational nets but there doesn't seem to be too many of them.
73 Mike
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K5UJ on June 5, 2007
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Why do I feel like I'm watching the Church Lady on Saturday Night Live when I read this article? Someone is having an issue with control apparently. This is what new hams need--to be insulted with the "newbie" label and pedantically lectured to right off the bat like they're all in Sister Mary's class in grade school.
I guess from now on when I operate I'm going to put on a suit and tightly knotted neck tie and say things like, "Good evening Old Man. The weather here is fine. We have been richly rewarded with a most excellent and splendid sunset at the twilight of the day. I am hearing you quite well, and do hope that our current propagation condition continues long enough for us to have an enjoyable chat. Ah, Rodgers has just entered my 'shack' if you will, and given me a tray with an evening sherry. Please afford me a pause whilst I ask him to dust off the rhinoceros head on the wall in my den...."
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by KB9CRY on June 5, 2007
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It also wouldn't hurt to have formal educational nets dealing with various subjects. I have heard these subjects discussed now and then on nets and have heard of educational nets but there doesn't seem to be too many of them.
I do know of a written educational net. It's called the ARRL Operating Manual. How many newbies have read this?
I know I did many times before I first started transmitting.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by EXWA2SWA on June 5, 2007
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"What your really saying is, "This isn't CB, don't bring your CB lingo. Your not in amateur radio, use amateur radio lingo" "
Uh oh! Grammar cop reporting massive violation of non-radio English!
"Your" is the 2d person possessive pronoun.
"You're" is a contraction for "You are"
10-4? ;-)
Cu on CW,
Jim NS5M
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KF4HR on June 5, 2007
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"Please afford me a pause whilst I ask him to dust off the rhinoceros head on the wall in my den...."
I thought I was the only one with a Rhino Head in my shack! :^))
KF4HR
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KG6R on June 5, 2007
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Hi Brian,
Relax, I am frankly honored to be someone's first contact. Ham radio like many other hobbies has it's conventions. They are easy to learn. I believe that the arrl license manuals discuss on the air "formats" for calling cq, answering calls etc.
If you spend some time listening, you will pick it all up very quickly. Some of the miscues on the air are no big deal, others are a akin to eating a sandwich at the opera, it's just not good form.
That being said, get on the air everyday and before long you will be a pro.
I made the mistake when I first got on vhf to call CQ on a repeater, no one answered my call. Finally on old timer took pity on me and explained how it is done.
When I first got on HF someone told me that my audio was poor. I got all kinds of advice like "try another microphone (didn't help), change the capacitors in your rig (thank God I didn't do that). I took it to a great radio tech and he checked out my rig (nothing wrong there). I joined a yahoo group for my model of radio and someone suggested that I probably have rf in the shack and explained how to make a coax choke, that solved the problem.
More than anything, ham radio is a terrific learning experience. Try to find an elmer and don't be shy about asking for help.
Barring that you can always ask me. I don't know all the answers, but I can point you in the right direction.
73 de KG6R, formerly KG6QHP
Jim
Brian wrote:
However, after reading the article, I get the feeling that "newbies" are not wanted anywhere on the air. I am fearful of making a "newbie mistake" and causing irreparable harm to the planetary alignment in our solar system or to the space/time continuum.
I'm being facetious or course, but please give us "newbies" a break while we learn the ropes. Also please remember that you were once a "newbie" too.
If you hear one of us "newbies" making a mistake, please share your pearls of wisdom accompanied with a side dish of compassion.
73’s
Brian
KB1OCC
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by AG4RQ on June 5, 2007
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To Mike, KD8FXM who said:
"If you just give us Newbs a chance, I promise we'll make you OTs proud...eventually. Especially if you give us sound advice and gentle guidance."
Mike, you are to be commended for your attitude. Newbies like you who want to learn proper protocol, want to do what's right and are coachable will make good hams and will always be welcome on the ham bands.
73 de Mark
AG4RQ
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 5, 2007
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>Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by K5UJ on June 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I guess from now on when I operate I'm going to put on a suit and tightly knotted neck tie and say things like, "Good evening Old Man. The weather here is fine. We have been richly rewarded with a most excellent and splendid sunset at the twilight of the day. I am hearing you quite well, and do hope that our current propagation condition continues long enough for us to have an enjoyable chat. Ah, Rodgers has just entered my 'shack' if you will, and given me a tray with an evening sherry. Please afford me a pause whilst I ask him to dust off the rhinoceros head on the wall in my den...."<
::What a coincidence! My butler's name is Rodgers, also! We must meet for a sherry or two and discuss rhino hunting. I bagged my last one at the L.A. Zoo; they were certainly upset.
WB2WIK/6
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KD5KJD on June 5, 2007
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I was on the air the night that Techs were allowed to get on 10m. And have been since, just listening and trying to talk to any of the new folks out there recently allowed to get on 10m. For all the belly aching about dropping the code and Techs being allowed on 10m SSB, I was surprised to hear so few ops out there! Where are these guys? Why are you NOT on the air? You're finally GIVEN the oppotunity to use some new spectrum and you're not out there! What I DO hear is freebanders and CBers who tell me, and I quote, ".... I bought this _ _ _ damned radio and I'll talk wherever I want. _ _ _ _ you and the FCC and you pansyassed hams. My radio, my channel."
Sadly enough, it is the lack of ham's use of the frequencies given that allows CBers to use OUR spectrum as though their own. If we don't use it, they will and have no issues with telling you that since no one was talking there, they can talk there.
Ok.... so now.... learn some proper radio etiquette, get yourself on the air! 10m rigs are cheap at hamfests! I know! I see them almost once a month for $125 or less! A CB antenna can be shortened to 10m use with very little effort! A dipole for the center of the SSB portion (28.400 mHz) is roughly about 16 and half feet long!
Soooo... The very best of 73, name here is Luis and my call is KD5KJD.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 5, 2007
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KB9CRY.
-"I do know of a written educational net. It's called the ARRL Operating Manual. How many newbies have read this?"-
Although I am a member of ARRL, I am not fond of the idea of replacing Elmers with commercial publications.
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W8KQE on June 5, 2007
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KI6EAA says:
<<<Want to kill the hobby? This attitude will do it.>>>
Utter nonsense! It's a matter of some of these newbies taking the time out to actually *LISTEN* a bit to on-the-air conversations, and *READING* a paragraph or two in numerous Ham Radio operating manuals that exist, before they get on-the-air and make asses of themselves sounding like drunk CB'ers on 10 meters (nothing against CB- it has its place and usefulness)! We did it. Why can't they? When as a newbie you first get on a motorcycle, you learn about the clutch, gearshift lever and shift pattern, brakes, etc. BEFORE you mount and start the bike. This is COMMON SENSE. Amateur Radio is not going the way of the dodo bird just because there are still some hams that CARE about basic operating procedures. We all share a commonality in this hobby/service through traditions and basic protocol. It's one of the things that makes Ham Radio work effectively.
<<<I remember a lot of hams talking like this to me when I was a teenager in the early 1970s. Imagine, getting a ticket (novice) with only 5wpm of code? Shamefull! They are dumbing down the hobby!!
Needless to say, I then blew off interest in the hobby as did my friends at the time. Since then, the average age of a ham seems to be going from 35 then towards 70 now.>>>
We're not talking code here. We're talking simple SSB operating procedures that have been in use on the Ham bands for decades. Operating procedures that you and I learned and adopted by listening to others on-the-air. In all my 30 years as a licensed Ham, it's only in the last year or so I myself have heard a good amount of Hams say things like "whats your 20?", or "how am I hitting you on the meter good buddy?", especially on 6 and 10 meters! If you got temporarily disinterested in Ham Radio back then based on one or two others telling you 5wpm is laughable for a Novice class licensee, maybe you are just the type who is easily discouraged. This is a completely different subject than what you are saying. Yes, the average age of the general Ham population has gone up, but this is more a reflection of other technologies, like multi-tasking cell phones, computers, and the internet.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WA2JJH on June 5, 2007
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Good artical Steve.
My experience with 10M, ranged from hours of Rcvr noise to absolute DX Bliss.
I worked Japan on SSB and CW with 100W and a vertical.
10M can be a clean gateway to much DX. It is a little like fishing. Catch a few tires or take home enough fish for the whole town.
Most suprising DX contact was working hams in 6,7,0 call prefixes in one hour or so.
A few weeks ago I worked Ca. On FM he was dead full quit. We chewed the rag a bit, before he faded out.
Then I must have had 15 hams call me!
I never created a 20M like pile up like this one on 10M FM!
So lets say you do not strike gold. Nothing wrong with a group of locals having a nice round table.
Before you know it some DX may check in, only after hearing all the activity.
No,it is not shooting fish in a barrel like 20M, however a newbie can bone up on proper operating.
When you upgrade, you will sound like a seasoned pro.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K0FL on June 5, 2007
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I agree that CB lingo has no place in ham radio. That being said be careful who you label a CBer. Being a LEO I have let a 10-4 slip more than once. Thats what I use 40+ hours a week on duty. I do grit my teeth when it happens though. I've been on HF since 1978 so I'm not new to the game.
Cutting slack is where it's at.
Tim KŘFL
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W0FM on June 5, 2007
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Good point, Tim. I feel for my son. He is a police officer, a boater and a pilot. The other day he mentioned he might get a ham ticket. I told him that I didn't think he could keep all the lingo straight! :o)
Terry, WŘFM
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 5, 2007
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WA2JJH.
-”So lets say you do not strike gold. Nothing wrong with a group of locals having a nice round table.
Before you know it some DX may check in, only after hearing all the activity.”-
We have an in formal net that meets Monday, Wednesday and Friday on 10 meters (28.38 MHz) in the evening. Last time I was on they had a couple of calls from California. One was a ham, the other was a CBer who wasn't sure what frequency he was on. The CBer was told to stay off amateur frequencies and we didn't hear from him again.
This particular net has no protocol other than to id every 10 minutes and at the end of the net. First names are used the rest of the time.
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WD9T on June 5, 2007
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Great article for the Newcomers! I also enjoyed working many of the "Newbies" and even though I did notice some of their CB jargon, I had some very nice contacts.
I did have one very disappointing QSO from a newly licensed General (3 yr technician recently upgraded the week prior) that was trying to work some SSTV with his audio cranked so high that I thought it was another CB'er trying to use their same methods to try to work the "skip".
He could not figure out why the other party could not copy his SSTV picture and when I entered their QSO and gave a friendly tip about the "VERY HOT AUDIO" may be the cause of his problem, he reduced the audio dramatically and began to get some success with his SSTV pics! However, when I said my 73's and let them continue their QSO, HE CRANKED THE AUDIO BACK UP AGAIN to it's almost unintelligible level!
Their old habits may die hard. I would hate to think that the CB band just had an enormous band expansion for all of their "users" as opposed to us getting new "Ham Operators" for our band. I'll be patient to see which direction it goes.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 5, 2007
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WD9T, good comments and I've heard the same thing.
Some newbies believe more mike gain makes them "stronger," somehow -- and obviously have a lot to learn. Some will accept advice, some won't.
Last night on 14.220 MHz I heard a new "interim AG" (/AG) operator calling CQ. He was 5 kHz out of his band, and being a recent upgrade should have known where the band edge was.
Everybody makes mistakes, but the good ops learn from each one and don't make them repeatedly.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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I'm still amazed at what I can do with 20m and 17m...and isn't that what this hobby is all about ?
yes, Yes, YES!! That's what it is all about! And having fun!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"I made the mistake when I first got on vhf to call CQ on a repeater, no one answered my call."
You did nothing wrong. I do that all the time. And if they don't want to talk to me, that's their loss. I have a wide range of interests and can be interesting to talk to!! :o)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N4SL on June 5, 2007
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"...Please afford me a pause whilst I ask him to dust off the rhinoceros head on the wall in my den..."
OM, the MAID does the dusting, not the butler and if you have to ASK, they should be fired!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by HAMMERTIME on June 5, 2007
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::What a coincidence! My butler's name is Rodgers, also! We must meet for a sherry or two and discuss rhino hunting. I bagged my last one at the L.A. Zoo; they were certainly upset.
WB2WIK/6
ROTF LMAO!!!!
Great Article!
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KA2DDX on June 5, 2007
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This does deserve a more serious response than the one I gave earlier. So......
Newbies, listen up. I was a newbie once. And, when I was a newbie, I greatly appreciated anyone taking the time to qso with me on the air. In return, I owe you the same courtesy. I don't care if you were licensed yesterday or 50 years ago, good operating habits come with the practice of qso'ing other hams and listening, listening and more listening.
Welcome aboard newbies, we need you here. Man, do we ever. So, take over. It's all yours. And, don't feel bad if you screw up now and then. We all did and most of us still do on occasion. Enjoy, have fun.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K8YZK on June 5, 2007
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Steve good article, like you said with 10 meters now opening up some, it is a chance for the newbies to work some dx or even a lot of new states. I would recommend they listen some and see if they can find their way to operate. We all have our own individual style, but it does not mean it's not correct, as I don't like to give a signal report on the first transmission. I want to be able to listen to the signal to give as accurate report as possible. I also say my location to the nearest big city I am near while mobile to give those listening an idea where I am at, instead of grid square because I don't keep track of the grids while moving, at the home station I do give it out. They will develop their own way to operate.
Terry W0FM, I know how your son is going to feel. I am a ham, retired army, and a police dispatcher. Sometimes the phonics from one make it into the other.
Kurt
K8YZK
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9YZL on June 5, 2007
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I’ve gotten to the point where I visit this site MAYBE once every six months: …..That’s because nothing ever changes!
This thread is a great example: ….Regardless of the intention of the OP, there are endless people who take advantage of the opportunity to pontificate on the subject of “Correct Jargon and Phrases”.
Give me a break! ……I just wish some of you had the ability to truly “step back”, and view the discussion from the point of view of an “outsider”: ….I promise you that you would be embarrassed.
Personally, I’m glad I decided to stop aspiring to be a “Ham”, and instead elected to simply be an ARS Licensee.
See you in another six months!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC8VWM on June 5, 2007
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by KC9EOT on June 5, 2007:
"What do you mean? This guy is 100% right! Look we all make mistakes and we can all learn from each other. He is not ripping anyone he is just pointing out a fact and is doing so in a proper manner."
--------------
What one person "feels" is "proper" another ham will rip you apart for as "improper"
So the heck with it, apparently there is no "one right way."
Don't beat yourself up over "protocals" Just get on the air and enjoy it. There is no shortage of people who are coming along to tell you "thier way" of doing things.
Good article though. I felt it was well intended, well written, thoughtful and contains a good deal of constructive information.
73 de Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9CRY on June 5, 2007
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So the heck with it, apparently there is no "one right way."
Good article though. I felt it was well intended, well written, thoughtful and contains a good deal of constructive information.
Charles, I'm sure you'll agree that once one gets the ability to operate on HF, the whole world will be watching?!
There is not one right way but when DXing, there is a certain convention that is followed and newbies will either tag along or have trouble.
I think that was the premise of the article and that holds true, basically, today.
And except for some studying of the few available resources, listening and emulating the good ops is the best way to succeed. Agree?
Phil
Phil
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC9JNX on June 5, 2007
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Guys, May I put in a few comments here.
Although I grew up in a HAM house, my dad was K1TBD and got his license in 1958 or so but I didn't get bitten by the "bug" until last year. In April, 2006 I got my technician license and in May bought my first transceiver, a Yeasu VX-170. For days I tried to contact ANYONE and finally a ham who heard me gave me the local repeater tone frequency and I could get on. My first contact was to K9IE who heard me calling "CQ" in the same sing-song voice I heard my dad use (I use that same technique today on HF). She was VERY nice and informed me that we don't say "CQ" on the repeater. She still holds a very special place in my heart as my first QSO of any kind.
Other hams have given me good advice, usually after hearing me make a mistake on the air (and remember, I had an entire childhood to hear good ham technique). I am forever indebted to K1TBD, W0TPO, K9UH, K9IUQ, W9OW, and a plethora of other hams who have been good Elmers to me as I moved from technician to extra. I expect that I will continue to find these kinds of coaches as I become the ham I want to become.
I think this is the key here. I want to become a good ham. I want to be instructed and helped, and I want to improve my skills. This is the way any "newbie" needs to feel. To realize that they are joining an elite group, and to want to associate with that group by accepting and using its norms.
The second key to my experience is that good hams want to help other hams improve. It is up to them to be helpful with a minimum of friction. This is just like teaching, I can't really teach anyone, I can only provide the atmosphere for learning and be a coach for those who want to improve.
So I guess I am saying that this is a two way street and it will take patience and work on all of our parts to make and keep amateur radio a place that people can enjoy, can be allowed to make mistakes, so they can learn, and by so doing, make it the showplace of what communications can be.
73
Rob K1JXN
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 5, 2007
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W8LGZ: "I love the way that when someone who has been in the hobby for a good while gives good, constructive criticism; a lot of, NOT ALL, but a lot of "newbies" instantly go on the defensive. Even those who may have worked in another communications venue for years need to learn the proper protocol for Amateur Radio."
Roger that, 10-4, affirmative. Personal aggravation noted.
W8LGZ: "Just because you "did it this way" where you came from, doesn't mean it's "the right way" here. Learn the rules (procedures), lose the "I know what I'm doing but I've only been in the hobby a few months" attitude."
Good grief, somebody did something bad in your corn flakes? Or are you just having a Bad Hair Day?
W8LGZ: "You had to "learn the rules" in other areas of life...same thing goes here!!"
Yes, I've learned some things in Life. My first 'radio operating' took place in the US Army...where we learned FIRST how to "destroy the enemy." Being Signalmen was secondary. I haven't taken much s#it from many since then. I don't think anyone else should, either.
All along, I thought US Amateur Radio was going to be a 'fun' hobby, something for personal pleasure in my retirement. Yes, I'd spent 54 years operating radios in lots of various radio services...had a commercial operator license for 51 years. Yes, I've had actual electronic design engineering responsibility at work since 1961. I've never been fired from that for any reason. Yet, here I feel like all newbies are to be treated as Scotsman William Wallace: to be drawn and quartered for defying Your Majesties' Sacred On-Air Long-Standing Protocols. Or, at least "Reported to Riley!"
Not to worry. I'm not painting my face blue or signalling bowmen to loose the grey goose flock. Know this, however: US amateur radio is basically a hobby, something done for personal pleasure, by human beings NOT in any sort of 'command' structure where you old-timers think you are boss. As more and more newbies enter amateur radio and as more and more old-timers expire, amateur radio itself WILL undergo change. It WILL evolve. Neither you nor I can stop it or stem the tide.
Know also THIS: Learning is a two-way street. YOU must learn to put up with newbies every bit as much as I've had to put up with the self-defined 'superiority' of a few radio amateurs for half a century.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 5, 2007
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K4JF wrote: "My statement stands. With certain non-professional exceptions, ham radio is AMATEUR."
The FCC already defined AMATEUR Radio Service in its regulations beginning in 1934. Hasn't changed insofar as the word AMATEUR is concerned.
Just the same, many many hams refer to "correct procedure" as being PROFESSIONAL.
Are those 'amateur professionals' or are they 'professional amateurs?' :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC8VWM on June 5, 2007
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Agree 110%.
As an avid SWL going on 33 years, I have always preferred listening to HF. Perhaps much in the same way the rest of the world may be listening to HF.
Phil, you have me on one point and I have to openly admit that I have indeed always learned something from listening to more experienced hams operating on HF.
Learning and improving your operating skill is an important and ongoing activity in Amateur Radio. I intend to continue with that activity myself. Trust me, I have no intention of following any example I might hear on 14.275 lately. :)
My Best.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 5, 2007
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K5UJ wrote:
"Why do I feel like I'm watching the Church Lady on Saturday Night Live when I read this article? Someone is having an issue with control apparently. This is what new hams need--to be insulted with the "newbie" label and pedantically lectured to right off the bat like they're all in Sister Mary's class in grade school."
Because we ARE being lectured by imitation Church Ladies. :-( Humorless Church Ladies.
There's a tremendous amount of self-importance attached to a Federal License, well over and above the reasonable. Even more so with the class distinction thing in licenses. [note that most in here are Amateur Extras, supposedly the top of the ham food chain] However, to a few licensees, it becomes a 'Trophy' to prove the licensee is a Somebody...and those Somebodies then become 'Instant Authorities' (and sometimes ultimate 'Judges') on anything they talk about. :-(
The supposition of the original article is that all newbies are implied as ignorant, wet-behind-the-ears nobodies who have little knowledge of "radio." The kindly, experienced, filled-to-the-brim-with-knowledge Extras should all be gracious and mentor them...by herding all the newbies onto the 10m band ("to show them the ropes") so that they don't bother the "big boys" on their lower-frequency DX playgrounds. It also presumes that all newbies are from CB experience or Technician experience (some old-timers don't separate the two). The 'Church Lady' gets dressed in her Sunday finest and flails away at newbies under that basic premise. [she isn't a Nun but has borrowed a Nun's ruler for knuckle-spanking]
Which is usually a bunch of #$%^&!!!! but the control-freak mentality MUST have its say and what better (i.e., defenseless) group to pick on but the newbie? They have a NEED to lecture. Sheesh.
Regardless of not being stated as such in Part 97, Title 47 CFR, US amateur radio is basically a hobby.
It is supposedly 'fun' involving a fascinating branch of technology (electronics). No, the newbies are TOLD that they MUST be under strict rules, even strict supervision. All on-air protocols MUST be observed (or dire unmentionable things happen)...to the Letter of the Law (the 'law' laid down by said Church Ladies). Good grief, these Church Ladies should at least buy a new dress...one without the Radio Cop badge worn on the bodice in place of jewelry. Ham radio is a HOBBY.
...........................
K5UJ: "I guess from now on when I operate I'm going to put on a suit and tightly knotted neck tie and say things like, "Good evening Old Man. The weather here is fine. We have been richly rewarded with a most excellent and splendid sunset at the twilight of the day. I am hearing you quite well, and do hope that our current propagation condition continues long enough for us to have an enjoyable chat. Ah, Rodgers has just entered my 'shack' if you will, and given me a tray with an evening sherry. Please afford me a pause whilst I ask him to dust off the rhinoceros head on the wall in my den...."
The next time your Rolls pulls up to my Rolls, I'll offer you some Grey Poupon. Bon apetit. :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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by K6LHA on June 5, 2007
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KG6QHP (who is really KG6R) wrote: "That being said, get on the air everyday and before long you will be a pro."
Oh, oh, look out, the Forrester will be out with his message axe about using "pro!" :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC8VWM on June 5, 2007
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Because we ARE being lectured by imitation Church Ladies. :-( Humorless Church Ladies.
-----
So I guess this means asking anyone of them out on a date is completely out of the question huh?
Good comments Len. :)
73 de Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by PLANKEYE on June 5, 2007
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I think you made some good points Steve. I hope those that read your post, can understand what it is you were trying to get across to all of us.
I don't really want to take the stance of "it's too late man", but?
It just may be.
I really liked the tips on operating, and enjoyed some of the posts regarding operating and licensing in the 1960's, 70's and, well you know, the old days.
You can put a 16 year old kid today, in an old 1973 orange Camero with a spoiler, for example. This is just an example, put in whatever car or experience from the past you want.
You can put that kid in that car today, but you won't put that car in the kid today. I realize, most kids will be like, WOW NEAT CAR, they will never know what it was like when it was THE CAR.
I know this comparison to Ham Radio is probably silly to most people. I'm not most people.
Take away all the requirements to become a Ham, in addition to what society is teaching us to teach our kids. I mean the "give me everything attitude", this is what you get.
Sorry if that rubs some the wrong way. This is what you get, a fellow trying to teach others things they should already know. Why don't they know it? Well, it kinda goes back to what I spoke about the old Camero. You can put a kid in Ham Radio, but you can't put Ham Radio into the kid. You can try, but I think you may just get the "WOW NEAT RADIO".
I use the term "Kid" loosely. Either you get it or you don't!
If it's not a big thing, I wonder why Steve took the time to post something like this. If you define it as "ELMERING" please see above!!
This is it, you get what you get!!
PLANKEYE
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB1OOO on June 5, 2007
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K4JF, I'm going by the 1956 QST article by Keith Williams W6DTY (call no longer exists) titled "Your Novice Accent and what to do about it" that W1CTN posted a link to (http://www.vanityhq.com/articles/novaccnt.html) in this thread. Also found a recently updated version here (http://kb6nu.com/your-novice-accent/). Please see quotations from this article in line with your comments below:
> 1. It doesn't matter whether QTH or name is first. I usually give the
> name first, unless the QTH is significant to the other op (as in when he
> is hunting states or counties). It seems friendlier that way.
"When you have established contact there are certain preliminaries
you should get squared away before you begin discussing the
weather. At the beginning of a QSO, on the first transmission from
the other station, each operator is interested in two pieces of
information first. He wants to know how his signals are being
received and where the other station is located, in that order.
Most operators, for some odd reason, want to know the other
fellow's name, but that is third in importance. "
> 2. Absolutely not. "K" means "go ahead"; it is inviting the other op to
> transmit. You shouldn't send anything after that. "SK" is the
> equivalent,
> except it is ending the QSO. Nothing should be sent after it either.
> When I hear SK from the other op in a QSO, I am immediately free to
> move away from the frequency, call someone else, or call CQ.
> Immediately.
"when ending a QSO use the signal, [SK] . This is easy. [SK] is never the last signal sent. The last item is either your call or the letter K. If you have made your last transmission but will stand by for the other station's closing remarks you send, " ... 73 ES CUL GN [SK] WN4YYY DE KN6ZZZ K. The [SK] indicates that you have made your last transmission. If you have completely finished the QSO and wish to remain open for business you just naturally don't put anything at all after your call. If you intend to "close station" and hit the sack you should indicate this fact by adding the signal "CL" immediately after your call. Listening operators are thus informed that you will not be in the market for another QSO. It saves them needless calls."
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N4RLL on June 5, 2007
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Once again, responses to a great post turn into a pissing contest.
Yes, many people who started out in CB, Public Service, watching too many reruns of CHiPs or BJ and the Bear or whoever came to amateur radio for what it has to offer.
All of these posts scare the newcomers off the ham frequencies. Most appreciate the help in learning to fit in. No one is trying to "move our cheese" - they're just coming here to find better.
To the newly upgraded I say "Welcome."
First licensed over 20 years ago, Novices were stuck with code and had to learn it well enough to upgrade to use voice on HF. I liken that to learning to drive a bulldozer before getting a license to drive a car. Good experience, but not for the activities allowed.
While learning to operate, I certainly didn't have a full grasp of the ham lexicon and protocol, neither on voice or CW. I learned by getting in there, taking a little ribbing and laughing at myself along the way, and by responding to the multitude of positive encouragement that went along with it.
Instead of bitching, get off here, get on the air, and contribute something positive, or STFU and keep posting. The more you stay here, the less you're on the air.
Steve - kick butt article. Keep them coming.
-- Jason N6EY (formerly N4RLL.)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"I was a newbie once. And, when I was a newbie, I greatly appreciated anyone taking the time to qso with me on the air. In return, I owe you the same courtesy. I don't care if you were licensed yesterday or 50 years ago, good operating habits come with the practice of qso'ing other hams and listening, listening and more listening.
Welcome aboard newbies, we need you here. Man, do we ever. So, take over. It's all yours. And, don't feel bad if you screw up now and then. We all did and most of us still do on occasion. Enjoy, have fun. "
I agree 100%!! Amen and welcome aboard!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"Are those 'amateur professionals' or are they 'professional amateurs?' :-)
73, Len AF6AY "
That's funny, Len. Darned if'n I know!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"K4JF, I'm going by the 1956 QST article by Keith Williams W6DTY ..."
Thanks for the info. That is interesting. However, I started in 1974 (a few years later) and have never ended a QSO with other than SK, and have never heard another end with anything other than SK. And that was through enough KN contacts to earn me a WAS. Most often it is "didididahdidah dit dit". (No, I don't know why the two dits, but it is very common.)
To end with just your call leaves everything hanging in the air, with no indication as to the status of that QSO. You wouldn't use "K" as that is "go ahead". SK signifies "the end". It seems just more courteous to the other op, to me.
Of course, this is amateur, and wide variations are normal. We are not professionals, Len! :o) *chuckle*
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 5, 2007
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"KG6QHP (who is really KG6R) wrote: "That being said, get on the air everyday and before long you will be a pro."
Oh, oh, look out, the Forrester will be out with his message axe about using "pro!" :-)
73, Len AF6AY"
Len (and others) let me explain why I object so strongly to the term "professional" (which means "paid for it").
I had a very demanding career - occupational safety in chemical manufacturing. Lives literally depended on my profession. Now that I'm retired (and before) when I'm on ham radio, I don't want professional. That's just too bloody stressful.
I want fun, not professional.
I want individual preferences to come to the surface, not professional precision.
I want relaxed conversation, not professional.
I want interesting people, not clipped professional communications.
I want to get to know the other person, not the impersonal professional way.
I want newcomers to feel welcome at whatever stage of expertise, not the professional demanding of one way only.
I want my QSOs to be relaxed, and it doesn't matter in what order the details are said.
That's why I emphasize the fact that ham radio is amateur. CB is professional (at least legally).
I say relax! Enjoy! This is ham radio, not a profession!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 5, 2007
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K4JF.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 5, 2007
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AF6AY says: "The supposition of the original article is that all newbies are implied as ignorant, wet-behind-the-ears nobodies who have little knowledge of "radio." "
Uhh... ALL newbies?
You can appreciate that just up and deciding to go get your Extra after a what, fifty year radio career makes you a somewhat different breed of newbie than a new Tech who came through CB and spent a couple months on 2m FM. In fact, one might make the case that *you're not a newbie at all*. Apparently someone told you you were.. I don't know where you find these guys.
"The kindly, experienced, filled-to-the-brim-with-knowledge Extras should all be gracious and mentor them..."
Yes.
"by herding all the newbies onto the 10m band ("to show them the ropes") so that they don't bother the "big boys" on their lower-frequency DX playgrounds""
There are lots of techs. Many don't know CW. They can either do CW or talk on 10m SSB. If anyone herded them anywhere, it was the FCC. But really, it's just a fact of the current license structure. Most of the newbies are going to be techs and they're going to try out what they're allowed to before they go and upgrade.
Nothing wrong with long-time hams spending some time where the techs can exercise their new privileges. It gives everyone more people to talk to on the radio.
I'm sure the techs out here in this neck of the woods appreciate guys like Steve getting on with their big log periodics and a kilowatt... hey, I'm hearing all these stations in Missouri, and wow, California is coming in!
And speaking of DX playgrounds, do you think there are many newbie-to-newbie DX exchanges? I don't.
Low-G5RV to low-G5RV doesn't work very well at this point in the sunspot cycle. And no, I don't think all newbies are stupid and running bad antennas... I just think that MOST newbies are running something inferior than the antenna they'll be running when they become more experienced.
Len, you're not a newbie. Don't be offended by this article because you're in the 0.1% or whatever of brand spaking new hams who know everything about effectively communicating on HF.
That goes for everyone else who read this and was thinking "hey, what the hell?! that's not me!!! I know how to effectively make ham contacts!!! Aaaarrrrrghghh!"
It's not about you.
Dan
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC2WI on June 5, 2007
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I don't think Steve is in any way "anti-newbie."
The fact is that there are certain traditions and conventions used in amateur radio HF QSOs.
While traditions change over time, that is not the same as a having a sudden influx of new people who either have not been informed or have not taken the time to learn the basics of on-air procedure, and then resent being told about it.
In years past, most new hams were 'elmered' into the hobby/service and were taught the proper procedures on a one-to-one basis by their mentor. Sadly that is all too frequently no longer the case.
Hams new to HF are certainly welcome but should learn the "right" way to operate. That way is not at all like CB and not quite the same as VHF-FM.
Signal reports are generally meaningless when working through a FM repeater but are standard practice on HF. And there are standard ways of giving a HF signal report.
There are certain conventions for any ham radio contact like saying "(the station you are calling's callsign) this is (your callsign)" and not the other way around.
Another tradition is the use of common Q signals like "QTH", etc., as slang. This is a carry-over from CW and actually is a nice way to preserve a little ham radio heritage from the 'old days' even if you don't do CW.
In my opinion is OK to say "QTH here is ____" or "What is your QTH?" because QTH can be used for giving or asking for location. On CW you would send "QTH Anytown NY", or ask for location by sending "QTH?" But on phone we don't need to conserve characters so adding the words "my" (QTH) "is" or something like that just makes a proper sentance, and saying "QTH question mark" makes no sense. We say "What is your QTH?" So "QTH" is just ham slang for "location" just like on CB "20" is slang for location.
If you are a boater you can say "front" and "back" or you can say "forward" and "aft"; you can say "left" and "right" or you can say "port" and "starboard." Using the nautical terms is a nice tradition and shows you know something about boating, even though the terms are not absolutely necessary.
So what's wrong with having some ham radio lingo?
I don't resent any "newbies" and in fact am pleased to talk to any new ham or ham new to HF.
But it is like most any other activity. The newcommers should learn the conventions, traditions, and lingo, and be open to constructive suggestions.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC8VWM on June 5, 2007
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Hams new to HF are certainly welcome but should learn the "right" way to operate. That way is not at all like CB and not quite the same as VHF-FM.
------
This seems to be suggesting CB is in the same catagory as VHF FM? :)
The problem as I see things is that what is often considered as proper protocol on VHF frequencies is often carried over to HF frequencies by the "newbies" (I will spare labels or exact definition of what that might be exactly.)
So now let's go back to my original point for consideration on that point.
"What one person "feels" is "proper" another ham will rip you apart for as "improper"
Some people just don't get that point and while many "newbies" are willing to learn the "right way" the communication protocols we use should probably be universal and exactly the same regardless if you are operating VHF or HF.
Basically, if you are going to give any "newbie" a license to operate, the communication protocols should be identical on VHF, HF or anywhere else for that matter and these protocals should not be separate.
However as Dan mentioned, It's not about you. I feel it's about the newbies, how they perceive things and how they know and don't know the respective differences.
Basically these differences in operating protocal results in the newbies participation on 10m meters but with the perception along the lines of what is considered as "right" on by one person on VHF is later interpreted as the "wrong" way to operate on HF.
Basically, the final result ends up to be "confused" newbies making contacts with seasoned HF operators on 10m HF but using incorrect communication protocols when doing so because they automatically assume operating VHF and 10m HF have the same operating and communication protocols.
This seems to have been the case when Steve ran into Joe Newbie on the air during his contact on 10 meters.
I applaude the author for shedding some light on the subject because there seems to be a lack of awareness and this apparent division between how things are done on VHF when compared to 10m HF frequencies.
Perhaps operating protocols should be equally applied on VHF as well as HF frequencies in the first place?
I agree with Dan. This is not about "you." It's about the bigger picture of things.
73 de Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 5, 2007
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KC8VWM wrote:
"Because we ARE being lectured by imitation Church Ladies. :-( Humorless Church Ladies."
-----
So I guess this means asking anyone of them out on a date is completely out of the question huh?
..............................
Depends on what your preference is. :-) <ba-dum-bump, rimshot>
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W7ETA on June 5, 2007
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While much of what is posted in this section is simply static and nothing more than noise, it is not QRM.
ON 75 and 80, there is constant noise that we call QRN.
Many times on 75, I'll have to ask for a repeat on most of the last transmission because of QRM. Rather than say someone just fired up below you, so I missed most of what you said because of intererfferfance, I say that I missed most of that because of QRM.
If it bothers people, I tell them to get a handle on their life! QSL? :-o
Guess I'm a horrable CW op. RST 5nn op Bob es Tucson hw? bk
73
Bob deat deat
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 5, 2007
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N3OX wrote:
....................................
AF6AY says: "The supposition of the original article is that all newbies are implied as ignorant, wet-
behind-the-ears nobodies who have little knowledge of "radio." "
Uhh... ALL newbies?
You can appreciate that just up and deciding to go get your Extra after a what, fifty year radio career
makes you a somewhat different breed of newbie than a new Tech who came through CB and spent a couple months on 2m FM. In fact, one might make the case that *you're not a newbie at all*. Apparently someone told you you were.. I don't know where you find these guys.
...................................
It's not about me. But, at a mere 3 months after first appearing in the FCC amateur radio database, I
think I 'qualify' as a newbie. :-) Of course, the last time I operated CB was a couple years ago or so,
just to see if my ancient Johnson tube-type CB still worked...got that in 1959. Still works.
Oh, and you can "find those guys" on almost any computer venue for hams. NOT a problem. Some are on here, in fact. Most of them are old-time Extras. :-)
Yes, I meant 'ALL' newbies. If I wanted to say 'some' newbies I would have written that. :-(
...................................
AF6AY: "The kindly, experienced, filled-to-the-brim-with-knowledge Extras should all be gracious and
mentor them..."
N3OX: "Yes."
....................................
Oh my, I was trying to be sarcastic. Must be losing my touch...[make note to self: pay more attention to
writing and pay all syntax]
...................................
N3OX: "There are lots of techs. Many don't know CW. They can either do CW or talk on 10m SSB. If anyone herded them anywhere, it was the FCC. But really, it's just a fact of the current license structure.
Most of the newbies are going to be techs and they're going to try out what they're allowed to before they
go and upgrade."
Hmmm...there's a bit over 300 thousand Technician licensees as of 4 June. According to www.hamdata.com, the newcomers are just beginning to outpace the expirees in US license totals. Three hundred thousand of anyone is a lot of people. You KNOW their motivations and what they are going to do? I really don't think so. I know only a handfull of Techs, acquaintences rather than friends.
I can give you the unexpurgated version of who herded the "lesser classes" away from HF. It's the one that the ARRL won't write...and it IS public. But, you won't like it and I've done it so many times
elsewhere that I don't care to repeat it. No ROI in it attempting to tell an 'old-time' Extra harsh reality.
....................................
N3OX: "And speaking of DX playgrounds, do you think there are many newbie-to-newbie DX exchanges? I
don't."
I wasn't speaking of that. Kindly do not put words in my posts that I did not write.
.....................................
N3OX: "I just think that MOST newbies are running something inferior than the antenna they'll be running
when they become more experienced."
Around here in this corner of Los Angeles, newcomers are Techs and use "shack-on-the-belt" HTs with
rubber ducky antennas. For some its the ONLY ham rig they have. Yes, your statement is correct,
although there appear to be other motivations at work on why you wrote what you did...
Whatever an "experienced" amateur runs for an antenna depends on their monetary income and how much of that can be spent on their hobby. That has no bearing on the hobby or this discussion.
....................................
N3OX: "Len, you're not a newbie. Don't be offended by this article because you're in the 0.1% or whatever
of brand spaking new hams who know everything about effectively communicating on HF."
Sorry, but I AM a newbie. 'Three months,' remember? Oh, and I do NOT "know everything about effectively communicating on HF." Never said that. Never implied that. What I did say was that I've communicated in lots of radio services. I began such communicating under a harsher taskmaster than most any amateur ever had. I learned early to enunciate clearly and "Get The Message Through."
..................................
N3OX: "It's not about you."
True. I never said it was. You implied that it is. Think of some of what I write as being a distillation of things and opinions of both the "lesser" classes in US amateur radio and some of the "higher" classes, a
sampling from what I've received in private mail plus what is in public view. Some of it is my opinions after observation of US amateur radio over the last half century. Your task is to try to figure out which is which. Not being able to, you simply say it is "me." No problem. You have to answer based on your own opinion, in defense of that opinion. That's the way it works on computer venues, has since the
ARPANET connected all the university and business computers.
What's on tomorrow's show, Dr. Phil?
73, Len AF6AY
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by VE3TMT on June 6, 2007
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No no no guys you're getting it all wrong. Steve says do it this way and we'll all do okay. Whether or not the "new operators" are bringing some of the CB traits with them, gosh Steve cut them some slack. Keep in mind this is probably their first time on HF and it is an entirely new world for them. Stop critisizing and start encouraging. We all can't be as smart as you, 10-4?
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4FX on June 6, 2007
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I agree with Steve, and think a lot of the problem falls on the shoulders of the Elmers, and the op for not listening long before any ticket comes in the mail.
I got a Tempo One 30 years ago, and listened for 6 months till I got a voice ticket, so like Phil, I knew the lingo by heart.
I too have been enjoying the 10 meter openings and some of the behavoir is disturbing. On one big opening I couldn't complete a QSO because people were constantly asking where I was, if I could hear them, and them throwing carriers or calling CQ on my freq to see if I would complain, now that's not how it's done. That is pure 11 meter operation, just because someone doesn't go back to you doesn't mean they can't hear you. Be patient, wait, you'll get a shot, if you can't wait, just move up or down the band and look for someone else, if no one else is calling CQ, find and EMPTY freq and call CQ, you may be surprised.
I tried to break a couple of Newbies to say hello and let then know they were getting out into NC, and was chastised for saying "BREAK" One said "What was all THAT about?" The other sed, "musta been a CBer good buddy" I QSYed rather than try to have a ham radio 101 lesson on the air, Well boys, for the past 30 years that I have been a ham, we have been using break, just because the CBer says break (er) doesn't mean you invented it! HI HI and BTW break break means emergency so please use break correctly.
73
K4FX
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by VE3TMT on June 6, 2007
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Hopefully some of the new operators are reading and take advice well. They have to understand, if they get on the bands and talk like CB'ers then they will be treated like CB'ers. You can lead a horse to water....
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 6, 2007
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AF6AY says: "Think of some of what I write as being a distillation of things and opinions of both the "lesser" classes in US amateur radio and some of the "higher" classes, a
sampling from what I've received in private mail plus what is in public view."
OK, I will. This article, though, isn't an average over the opinion of the "higher classes" ... it's an observation by a good ham op of what some of the newer ops are doing. I understand where you're coming from.
None of us should generalize ham behavior based on a few anecdotes here and there, but hell, if we didn't do it there wouldn't be any new material for eHam ;-)
"Some of it is my opinions after observation of US amateur radio over the last half century." "
If all of the newbies had observed ham radio for fifty years before keying the mic, Steve wouldn't have felt compelled to write this article ;-)
You mention that I don't know what all of the 300,000 newbies are thinking/doing, which is true, but I can guarantee you on a statistical basis that they haven't been in contact with amateur radio for fifty years.
Dan
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 6, 2007
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By the way: my comments above of why ham radio is (or should be) amateur and not professional, DO NOT APPLY when working in emergency communications. The comments were intended for casual hamming. Emergency operations are completely different, and require extensive training with served agencies to be done correctly.
I hope some of the newcomers will get involved there, but first, learn to have fun with ham radio. THEN go on to community service if you like. If you don't like, that's fine, too. Just do not put down those who do want to serve.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 6, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by AF6AY on June 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
What's on tomorrow's show, Dr. Phil?
73, Len AF6AY<
::You sure have some strong opinions about amateur radio for someone who's been licensed just over 3 months and obviously hasn't made many contacts on the air, yet (198 QRZ.com lookups likely indicates about that many contacts on HF, maybe less).
-WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 6, 2007
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WB2WIK.
I've been licensed for a little over a year and I only have 163 lookups on QRZ.com, none of them are from HF, most of them are from here. : )
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 6, 2007
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Ah ha!!! 164 lookups. Someone must have just read this. : )
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 6, 2007
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We might have to look at it differently, we can only teach to those that are willing to listen, its like a new employee on a job site. You teach them if there willing.
I had a friend who was a new timer in the group and he was willing to listen and learn not only to me but to our 2 clubs. But again there are those who dont want to led by the hand.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 6, 2007
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Hams new to HF are certainly welcome but should learn the "right" way to operate. That way is not at all like CB and not quite the same as VHF-FM.
------
This seems to be suggesting CB is in the same catagory as VHF FM? :) "
Uh, no, I beleive he said it as completely different. Not at all like one, and not quite like another.
I, for one, do not see any reason for different operating procedures on VHF than HF. It's all ham radio! If "CQ" (for example) means "calling any station" on HF, why should it not mean the same on VHF, or UHF? Same with "QRZ", which means "who is calling me?". I have heard that used on VHF when they really mean "CQ". One should NEVER respond to QRZ unless you have called that station already, no matter which band.
Of course, operational differences should be taken into account. On a repeater, a 3x3 CQ call is unnecessary, once is enough. But there is nothing wrong with "calling any station" on VHF or a repeater.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WG7G on June 6, 2007
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One of my favorites I hear occasionally (on local repeaters) is “Anyone want to talk about something?” Can't get much more effective than that.
73 Mike
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WR8D on June 6, 2007
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K4FX....exactly what has happened to me. They'll hear you...there will be a pileup and then when you can't answer them all at one time they start throwing carriers and qrming, i've even been qrmed with music. The freebander knows it all already. In my part of the country many have done that for over 25 years. We tried to be nice to those types and elmer and actually got cussed for our efforts. Now don't get me wrong on this, all of them are'nt dumber than a tree stump...the outlaws though are the ones coming to the front and the nice ones turn the vfo.
If we all started turning the vfo and looking the other way when we hear what we describe above in the thread....pretty soon there won't be anywhere to turn the vfo to. We all better think about this. Be nice to them in every way...but we must correct them.
Everyone just needs to turn their general coverage xceivers to 11 meters some day when the band is open and you'll understand why we can't let this go unchecked.
73 John WR8D
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 6, 2007
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One repeater I was listening to the person who was calling CQ was told not to use it, and the next time no body would chat with him. There are those's who want to learn and there are those who don't. Not saying the CQ thing was good or bad but the party was told how they felt on that repeater.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4FX on June 6, 2007
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You are right John, I was being kinda tame since a few people were jumping on Steve like he was being too rough, when he was actually being too light on some of these guys. It was pretty bad down here, and they just would not stop, I would comment the freq was in use and please stand by, and it's like that was what they wanted, that kind of a reponse was like a QSL to them, they only called CQ and QRMed more. I guess the best thing besides turning the VFO is act like you don't hear them, ignore them..
K4FX
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KE7AKS on June 6, 2007
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WELL!, at age 71 this year,it is rather nice to be called a NEWBIE! I did get my General Class before they dropped the code requirement, maybe that makes me an O.T., or maybe it is that old geezer that looks back at me from the mirror...
I consider it a great benefit for using 10 meters, that I come from being a CB user in the past. For the last few years as a CB user, I used SSB, and talked mostly to a group of locals. We used first names, (NO HANDLES or DX NUMBERS)and did not consider it proper to mix DX or SKIP talking with local talk. We for the most part used much better protocol than I noticed in listening to ham radio. The conversations were usually about various subjects, not just radios, antennas, the weather, my location, and your signal strength, like you will no doubt hear mostly on HAM RADIO. We talked about what the fish are biting, how to set the points on a chevy, what the latest GPS unit will do, hints on barbeque, road conditions, motorcycle maintenance, you name it, we had very intresting conversations.
I find the old ANTRON 99 and a tunner works very well for 10,12, and 15 meters. I am thinking of resurecting my ASTRO-BEAM, bet it will be useful as well.
I learned when SKIP is in, to forget local chat until
later in the evening... same as 10 Meters.
I spent some time on 10 Meters before the code requirement changed, and I find it much better now that the band is likely to be active, and you can now usually find someone to chat with, not always the case before.
I am very glad for the new changes. Ham radio is just CB radio (all) grown up... radios that work, enough power to actually legally talk real DX, all that most CBers dreamed of... nice thing maturity, some hams should try it.
Thanks for the NICE ARTICLE....
I hope to hear more NEWBIES to chat with....maybe learn some nice tips on things to make life even more fun.
Later,
Harv KE7AKS
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by K4JF on June 6, 2007
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"One of my favorites I hear occasionally (on local repeaters) is “Anyone want to talk about something?” Can't get much more effective than that.
73 Mike"
Not bad, Mike, not bad. I would answer that one if I heard it!
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI4RJE on June 6, 2007
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Good point WB2WIK.
With the change in rules there will be a larger cross section of individuals..good and bad.
I come from the ranks of civil aviation and they taught us in regards to radio ettiquette: "Being polite and courteous is the mark of a professional"
So remember that children and play nice!
^.^
73's
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by K4JF on June 6, 2007
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"If you are a boater you can say "front" and "back" or you can say "forward" and "aft"; you can say "left" and "right" or you can say "port" and "starboard." Using the nautical terms is a nice tradition and shows you know something about boating, even though the terms are not absolutely necessary."
Not to pick a nit, "front" and "forward" are interchangable, but "left" is one thing; "Port" is another. "Starboard" is not the same as
"right".
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 6, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by KE7HFQ on June 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
WB2WIK.
I've been licensed for a little over a year and I only have 163 lookups on QRZ.com, none of them are from HF, most of them are from here. : )
73 Mike<
::It's not a sure-fire indication of anything, of course; however when actively working HF as I do, I note that probably five out of ten of my contacts actually say on the air, "Hey, I just looked you up on QRZ.com, nice picture you have there!" or something like this. The *majority* of DX stations seem to be very well dialed in to this, and almost all of them know my name before I even tell them, because they've already done the lookup. So, it is an indication of activity.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 6, 2007
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>Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by KE7AKS on June 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
WELL!, at age 71 this year,it is rather nice to be called a NEWBIE!<
::Welcome to the ranks, "kid!"
>I find the old ANTRON 99 and a tunner works very well for 10,12, and 15 meters.<
::Here's a tip even a 71 year young ham can learn: The Antron doesn't "work very well on 10, 12 and 15 meters." That's easy to prove; however, what I'm guessing you mean is it loads up very well with a nice, low SWR on those bands, and I believe that. I've had the same antenna, and ditto: Loads up great all over the place. That doesn't mean it "works well." What, exactly, have you been working with it on 12m andd 15m? My guess is "not much." If and when you get the chance to put up a real 15m antenna, you're going to be astounded!
73 and welcome to the bands! Hope to find you for a chat.
Steve WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 6, 2007
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>Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by N0AH on June 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
All the newbiews had been on 10M for a number of years...............is this an April 1st post?<
::No, they haven't. "Tech+" and "Novice" licensees have had 10m for many years, but this isn't about them. This is about the new flood of "NCTs" ("no code Techs) who now suddenly do have 10m privileges after never having them before, due to the recent rules change. Now that the code requirement's dropped, a lot of "NCTs" have also upgraded to General class licensees by taking only a written element, and now have privileges for the first time on any HF band, including 10m.
WB2WIK/6
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KN4LF on June 6, 2007
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by KB9CRY on June 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
What's a fire bottle?
I think it's a Molotov Cocktail!
73,
Thomas Giella, KN4LF
Lakeland, FL
http://www.kn4lf.com
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by K6LHA on June 6, 2007
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WB2WIK wrote:
........................................................
What's on tomorrow's show, Dr. Phil?
73, Len AF6AY<
::You sure have some strong opinions about amateur radio for someone who's been licensed just over 3 months and obviously hasn't made many contacts on the air, yet (198 QRZ.com lookups likely indicates about that many contacts on HF, maybe less).
.......................................................
Gosh, a simply query on the next day's TV broadcast lineup sure gets some folks upset. :-)
Yes, I do have personal opinions and don't hesitate to express them via computer; done that for 23 years. No 'license' needed for that. But, a correction: I've been licensed as a radio operator for 51 years, not just 3 months...this last license (AF6AY) was my first amateur radio license. Not only that, my first HF transmitter QSY was done in February, 1953, without any license whatsoever! [1 KW RTTY Tokyo to Okinawa, one of 35 other HF transmitters between 1 and 15 KW]
Yes, I haven't made but a couple HF contacts on ham bands since my Amateur Extra license grant. Neither have I had any HF transmitting equipment before the third week of March 2007. I'll be another month before I can get a better antenna installed at my residence. Do you wish me ex-communicated till then? Shall I tear down my Icom IC-R70 long-wire? De-mast my discone? Send my IC-746Pro back to AES because I am considered 'unfit' due to "lack of QRZ lookups?"
Sorry, but I can't possibly hope to collect 14,973 QRZ look-ups. [is this a 'WAQ' contest?] But, I didn't know that was important. I'm a relative newbie to e-ham as well. Now, e-ham product reviews were an aid in a great information hunt from many sources on what amateur transceiver to purchase after my Amateur Extra license grant was official. Enough so that I subscribed with some actual money. Even paid my frist dues to the ARRL!
Oh, horrors, I've even made Comments to the FCC in regards to 98-143 that resulted in Restructuring (via R&O 99-412 taking place in 2000), Peititions on code versus no-code testing that resulted in FCC 06-178, all without having an amateur radio license! [those are all on public view at the FCC website] Worse yet, I've been a contributor to, later an Associate Editor at the old Ham Radio magazine without a single ham call on my byline! [there's more personal stuff but N3OX said "it's not about me"]
Am I carrying any old habits over to ham radio operating? Only one, saying "roger that" instead of just "roger" or "okay," something I picked up as a civilian working on DoD contracts, military radio jargon that evolved well after my Honorable Discharge in 1960. My 1960 Johnson Viking CB rig is still gathering dust in the workshop, last fired-up a couple years ago...without saying any of the CB lingo that is supposed to be so terribly wrong in ham radio. I haven't "shot skip" with that, never intended to.
Now, with the end of code testing coming (it was announced on 15 Dec 06) I thought it might be fun to get an amateur radio license for my retirement years. Okay, so, at age 74 I took all three tests on a Sunday afternoon and passed them. I don't need the title to prove myself to anyone. I've had a good career as an electronics design engineer. I don't need a certificate just to have wallpaper. I'm not out hunting for DX and 'radio sport' contesting is not my thing. I don't want my residence to look like a radio station (I've already lived IN a 2 square mile antenna field). Amateur radio is not a driving force in my life. But, some younger guys keep lecturing me about it, what to do, how to do it, yaddadadda, like it's "always been done that way and by darn you better do the same!" :-)
Yeah, like wow, for a FUN hobby you guys really run a regimented life on HF ham bands. Strict proper Procedure (with a capital P). Us "newbies" best tremble for fear of being sent to the radio stockade! Yes Sir, I will consider myself lectured to...<pop-to, salute>
AF6AY
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by K6LHA on June 6, 2007
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N3OX wrote:
........................................
AF6AY says: "Think of some of what I write as being a distillation of things and opinions of both the "lesser" classes in US amateur radio and some of the "higher" classes, a
sampling from what I've received in private mail plus what is in public view."
OK, I will. This article, though, isn't an average over the opinion of the "higher classes" ... it's an observation by a good ham op of what some of the newer ops are doing. I understand where you're coming from.
..........................................
No, you can't possibly understand "where I am coming from." "It's not about me" according to you.
My speculation is that Steve Katz wrote mainly about his personal observation...on a strong overlay of what has already been written in other places and the (apparent) 'group think' of US ham radio operations as practiced for years.
..........................................
N3OX: "None of us should generalize ham behavior based on a few anecdotes here and there, but hell, if we didn't do it there wouldn't be any new material for eHam ;-)"
..........................................
These articles are MORE than "based on a few anecdotes." They are OPINIONS of individuals laid bare in words from those that are "in da 'hood" and claim "turf." [Territorial Imperative, common to all human endeavors] Most of them go much farther than 'advice' and some are neo-commands from those who wish to be in charge. See the "lead the newbies by the hand" remarks. <shrug> It goes with the territory. [I just roll with that and shine them off if they are too obstreperous]
...........................................
N3OX: "If all of the newbies had observed ham radio for fifty years before keying the mic, Steve wouldn't have felt compelled to write this article ;-)"
I have NO idea WHY Steve Katz wrote what he did or how much he was 'compelled.' WE can only surmise and speculate. I speculate he is one of the 'old-timers' (at least mentally) who wishes for some kind of 'purity' and continuation of the old ways in amateur radio operating...of the "this is the way WE do it in amateur radio" school. It is just another lecture to me. Since that lecture is telling lots of others what they want to hear, he gets praise for his writing. FB OM
..........................................
N3OX: "You mention that I don't know what all of the 300,000 newbies are thinking/doing, which is true, but I can guarantee you on a statistical basis that they haven't been in contact with amateur radio for fifty years."
Statistically, I can guarantee you that most newbies haven't existed for fifty years. So?
Statistically, I can also guarantee you that NOT all Technicians (and the few Tech-Plusses still around) are all jumping on HF or even on 10m after some recent FCC regulatory change. What so many 'HF Extras' in here don't want to realize is that the larger urban centers in the USA have developed their own enclaves of VHF-UHF-only activity and many are quite content with that. Those few who have 'upgraded' seem to have done so for the Title-Rank-Status thing, NOT necessarily just to operate HF. As a relative outsider I can understand them even if so many 'HF Extras' don't. Years of being talked-down to and treatment as second-class licensees will do that to certain groups, including "newbies." it's not about me, it is about them.
Consider the more vocal respondents in these e-ham forums. The vast majority are Amateur Extras, far from being "newbies." They are seldom objective, preferring the subjectivity of their own experiences. Of course they want operating to be in their style, everything that is a comfort to them. It's not about me, it is about them.
You show some resentment that I've been "in contact" with amateur radio for fifty years. Actually, I've known OF it for about sixty years. Is that a detriment? Some younger than I express that feeling, but then those 'want to be in charge' and resent most with 'other' radio experience. Replace 'radio' with other activites/hobbies and it is no different in human endeavors. I'm not going to apologize for my longevity or life experience. I should not have to. Life is what we individuals make of it as we can.
AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 6, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by AF6AY on June 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Yes, I haven't made but a couple HF contacts on ham bands since my Amateur Extra license grant. Neither have I had any HF transmitting equipment before the third week of March 2007.<
::Exactly as expected. You've taken exception to some suggestions I've made, none of which sound even remotely like dictates to anyone but you, without knowing anything about actually operating an HF rig. Fifty years experience in military, broadcast, commercial, aviation or any other kind of communications is *nothing* like ham radio, and won't help much other than by coincidence.
For one, hams can draft our own procedures as we go along, and we all do. We needn't use 10-codes, or "roger that" talk, or any standardized phonetics or really anything else unless we choose to. In my article, I didn't even propose following any such procedures.
I touched on protocol, suggesting ways to improve operational efficiency for marginal circuits where signals are fading and time might be very limited. I've never met a lifelong military comms guy who could make one single meteor scatter voice contact, even if his life depended on it. They were never trained for this, and wouldn't know where to start. But thousands of hams do it all the time. It takes experience, and the protocol which developed over time -- and developed exclusively for and by hams -- works perfectly. Deviating from it doesn't.
Let me know what you think after you've filled your first ten log books with contacts. There's 1200 contacts per book (ARRL standard spiral-bound).
Although I use computers a lot and have full station automation available, I still use spiral bound "hard copy" log books for the fun of it -- and for the memories. I can look back to Log #1 and see what my handwriting looked like in 1965, or to Log #5 where I can still see where I spilled half a can of Coke on it. Very hard to do this with computer logging.
Anyway, I'm on logbook #331 right now and learn something new with each book.
73
WB2WIK/6
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by W1GFH on June 6, 2007
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Good article Steve.
I don't much mind hearing "CB-isms"... i.e. "the first personal here is Ralph", or Ham-isms"...i.e. "QSL on that", etc. as long as there is an effort to carry on a two way conversation. About the biggest difference between ham and CB operating is that CB is mostly all about transmitting.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 6, 2007
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AF6AY says: "You show some resentment that I've been "in contact" with amateur radio for fifty years. Actually, I've known OF it for about sixty years. Is that a detriment? Some younger than I express that feeling, but then those 'want to be in charge' and resent most with 'other' radio experience"
Len, I think you've got a few letters wrong. I respect, not resent your radio experience. I do think that your radio experience puts you on a different footing than newbies with no radio experience at all, or radio experience that comes with working through 2m repeaters where signals are always either perfectly clear or totally unusable or on AM CB with loud local signals.
Maybe we're all control freaks here, but cross-country or worldwide HF SSB operation is fundamentally different from local AM or FM operation in the way you need to operate to effectively make contact.
I think it's important that new hams learn how to effectively make contact. Many of them don't know how.
I don't think it's our job to just ignore that problem.
I like radio. I like having a world in which there are a number of radio hobbyists who are effective at getting information through in adverse conditions, because I like working DX; that 0.5% reliable path to somewhere or other.
I guess we can just say "to each his own, ignore the newbies who aren't any good at HF SSB" but if everyone does that all the time, it will be bad for the average state of operator competency in ham radio.
And remember, I end up implicitly defining operator competency as the ability to complete a contact with weak signals over a fading, fluttery path with low S/N ratio, not as some tradition of "fine business, old manning" everyone you come across.
Of course, I doubt that anything we do on the internet affects this one way or another.. people just copy what they hear on the radio... so I'm out... I'm gonna go make a few contacts.
73,
Dan
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by KB1OOO on June 6, 2007
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K4JF: Thanks for the info. Good to know that protocol has evolved somewhat.
73,
Marc
KB1OOO
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KI6JUW on June 6, 2007
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As a new licensee after reading this thread I wonder why I would want to hop on 10 meter?
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by PLANKEYE on June 6, 2007
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Hey Steve:
Man, why would you post replies to replies to your article? Let it stand on it's own!
Now you are doing exactly what everyone else does. You only have 120 lookups, obviously this obviously that, I have 500 logbooks and each has so many pages, and those pages have lines that are spaced 1/2 inch apart.
Steve, read my post above. You can't get it back Man! Those days are over! Call it what it is, get over it, and move on. Or, do what you are doing.
You can tell everyone how much you have achieved, and tell everyone how much they haven't. Or, well that is up to you!
Good Luck Steve
PLANKEYE
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3OX on June 6, 2007
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"As a new licensee after reading this thread I wonder why I would want to hop on 10 meter?"
My uncle, N3QCQ, helped me buy my first HF rig in 1996 (bottom of the sunspot cycle) after I'd been a ham for about a year. I was a Tech+ at the time, so just like techs now I had 28.300-28.500 as my only SSB HF privileges. I had learned the 5WPM code for the exam but I wasn't any good at it.
It was late spring when I hooked up the rig. I threw a 20' wire out the window, tuned it up with my tuner and tuned across 10m. There was pretty much nothing but static, but I kept listening... for a couple hours... I wanted to find SOMETHING out there.
All of a sudden, the band popped open! There was a station in OKLAHOMA on... wow!
I worked a few guys there and the band closed down again. Well, I was hooked anyway... I knew I'd be able to find something if I looked hard enough...
The next day or two I would come home home from school and tune across looking for something... nothing doing...
Then out of the noise, really faint: "CQ CQ CQ this is G3---" (it's on paper somewhere... don't have it in front of me to know the call).
G3?! That's not the U.S.A. !! I gave him a call and made the contact... wow!
Just one reason...
Dan
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by KI4UBD on June 6, 2007
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"As a new licensee after reading this thread I wonder why I would want to hop on 10 meter?"
Don't let some of the negative posts get to you. There is alot of good information here intertwined with the other stuff. Glean thru it, listen on the band and make use of the freq.s that are allowed to you. We all make a mistake every once in awhile, even the veterans, but we learn and gain experience from them and move on for the better. I'm new at this as well, If I only went by what has been posted in this thread and some others I would probably be a little aprehensive as well. The water in the pool would seem to be way to cold to enjoy. I went ahead and jumped in anyway and to date my experience has been a enjoyable one. The water really wasn't cold after all. Summer is here and the DX will get better and I look forward making more contacts and getting to know some you via the airwaves. Jump in the pool, the waters fine!! ;) Just don't pee in it. :D
73's
Wayne C.
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by KX8N on June 6, 2007
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"Jump in the pool, the waters fine!! ;) Just don't pee in it."
It's already yellow from all the p*ssing and moaning from the nay-sayers.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC5CQD on June 6, 2007
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I'd love to hear ANYONE on ten meters! I realize that we're at the sunspot minimum but even so, ten meters is superb for local ragchewing. Even at the SS minimum.
Why has everyone opted for 2m/70Cm for local talking? FM stinks. IMHO, that is!
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by KE6OUD on June 7, 2007
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Well, my 2 cents worth:
After my upgrade I made my first HF contact with my Elmer in Hawaii on 20 meters. Nervous? Yep but was VERY exciting!
2nd contact was JA1CG on 20, no biggie to most but I received a a SUPER QSL card from him. Now, I started wondering what I had been missing all these years.
3rd contact last week was from OX3UR at Thule Air Base in Greenland on 20 meters. WOW! All this with just a lousy wire strung between 2 Oak Trees & 100 watts! Now I'm getting the "BUG?"
This last Monday while scanning the bands, I heard a nice female Ham chatting away with friends on the east coast from her & her husbands boat. I waited patiently until she was signing off & called her. She came right back & held the coversation for 10 minutes. When I found out they were anchored off an Atoll in French Polynesia & making their way to New Zealand, I was flabergasted. That was a S9 contact on 17 meters I'll never forget!
So, I've been bitten by the bug & well on my way to get that monster KLM KT-34XA up on my new 60' tower.
This is one "Newbie" that won't fade away.....
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W8LGZ on June 7, 2007
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AF6AY: Roger that, 10-4, affirmative. Personal aggravation noted.
Wisecrack.
AF6AY: Good grief, somebody did something bad in your corn flakes? Or are you just having a Bad Hair Day?
No.
AF6AY: Yes, I've learned some things in Life. My first 'radio operating' took place in the US Army...where we learned FIRST how to "destroy the enemy." Being Signalmen was secondary. I haven't taken much s#it from many since then. I don't think anyone else should, either.
My genuine Thanks to you for being a military person guarding our freedom! But, NO-ONE is asking you or anyone else to take s#it from anyone here.
AF6AY: All along, I thought US Amateur Radio was going to be a 'fun' hobby, something for personal pleasure in my retirement. Yes, I'd spent 54 years operating radios in lots of various radio services...had a commercial operator license for 51 years. Yes, I've had actual electronic design engineering responsibility at work since 1961. I've never been fired from that for any reason. Yet, here I feel like all newbies are to be treated as Scotsman William Wallace: to be drawn and quartered for defying Your Majesties' Sacred On-Air Long-Standing Protocols. Or, at least "Reported to Riley!"
Amateur Radio IS a fun hobby. "We" (the Old Farts, as we're called) want to preserve the "fun" of Amateur Radio by getting the "newbies" trained in correct procedure. Otherwise, it WILL get out of control in time. (No, we're not the Ghestopo or something. Look at CB when the rules were not followed or enforced) However, as I stated earlier, a lot of, NOT ALL "newbies" instantly go on the defensive like someone is bashing or belittling them when constructive criticism is given. There are too many "newbies" coming on-board with the attitude of, "I don't care about the "right" way to do it." "I'm gonna do it however I want and don't care what anyone thinks!" Hear THIS, THAT is what we're trying to curb. NOT the fact that "newbies" are coming into the hobby. "Newbies" are welcome in my book, just be open to "coaching" so you can do it right. Amateur Radio IS "self policing" which means "we" (Experienced ops) are to lead the "newbies" in the right direction when we hear them doing something incorrectly.
AF6AY: Not to worry. I'm not painting my face blue or signalling bowmen to loose the grey goose flock. Know this, however: US amateur radio is basically a hobby, something done for personal pleasure, by human beings NOT in any sort of 'command' structure where you old-timers think you are boss. As more and more newbies enter amateur radio and as more and more old-timers expire, amateur radio itself WILL undergo change. It WILL evolve. Neither you nor I can stop it or stem the tide.
Amateur Radio IS a hobby (not basically). But, whether we like it or not, there are rules and procedures to be followed for the good of ALL operators. Yes, Amateur Radio is changing but we need to temper that change or we will get total loss of control and civility. (Again, look at CB)
AF6AY: Know also THIS: Learning is a two-way street. YOU must learn to put up with newbies every bit as much as I've had to put up with the self-defined 'superiority' of a few radio amateurs for half a century.
Yes, learning is a two way street. I've been in this hobby 25+ years...do I know it all? Absolutely not!! Don't profess to. But, I do know that there is a certain way of doing things in Amateur Radio. I was coached (Elmered), I didn't take it as a personal attack. Neither should you or any other "newbie".
Honestly Len, from what I'm reading so far from you, you're sounding like you're falling into the camp of "I don't care about the "right" way to do it." "I'm gonna do it however I want and don't care what anyone thinks!". I sincerely hope that's NOT the case. Be open to constructive criticism. I agree, don't take s#it from people, but don't take every criticism as an attack either.
73 & Welcome aboard!
Jim - W8LGZ
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 7, 2007
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Mail this to a friend!
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by PLANKEYE on June 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Hey Steve:
Man, why would you post replies to replies to your article? Let it stand on it's own!<
::No callsign, no credibility. Why would anyone read what you have to write? I stopped after the first sentence.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 7, 2007
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>Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by KC5CQD on June 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I'd love to hear ANYONE on ten meters! I realize that we're at the sunspot minimum but even so, ten meters is superb for local ragchewing. Even at the SS minimum.<
::I agree with you. But remember a lot of the 2m/70cm FM activity is repeater-based, with well-known "channels" for people to congregate, so in that way it's much like CB. 10m is quite different. Only a few repeater frequencies available, not many active repeaters on them, and Tech licensees are not allowed up in that part of them 10m band, anyway. So, Techs are relegated to SSB and CW use, and most of them don't know code, so it's pretty much SSB only. There aren't any "channels," and you must tune around to find people. It's different.
Also, 10m requires much larger antennas than 2m or 70cm for the same tropo range (non-ionospheric local work). While a simple 2m omni might only be 39" tall, an equivalent 10m omni would be almost seventeen feet tall to create an equivalent signal level for local tropo work, and such is needed on both ends of the circuit. So, there could be antenna constraints.
Still, 10m has lots of merit. Using a beam and some power, I make "tropo" contacts out to about 150 miles, easily -- when the band's completely closed. Of course, that's also possible on 6m and 2m, so 10m is just one more band for this.
The point of the article was to invite people onto the band, not to scare them away from it: Hence the title.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 7, 2007
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"Still, 10m has lots of merit. Using a beam and some power, I make "tropo" contacts out to about 150 miles, easily -- when the band's completely closed. Of course, that's also possible on 6m and 2m, so 10m is just one more band for this.
The point of the article was to invite people onto the band, not to scare them away from it: Hence the title.
WB2WIK/6 "
Another "invitation" point is that if you already have an 11m antenna, all you have to do is trim it a little and you're on 10. I've even worked Australia and New Zealand on 10m with an unmodified 11m antenna and no amp. (Of course, that was a tube final rig; if you're using all solid state you would have to use a tuner or trim the antenna.)
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KG4RRN on June 7, 2007
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I entered the hobby five years ago. I am now trying to upgrade, taking a test for General or Extra this Saturday.
I also remember what 11 meters was like back in the late 70's. I was also a licensed 11 meter operator.
I have had a run in with a minority of old timers and some new timers who wanted to prove to me how smart they were, and telling me off in emails.
One even tried to send me a virus and a trojan worm, because I had dared dissed him on a website.
Freedom of speech carries a price now during these days of war and emotion.
If the mobile units would ease up on the mic clicking to see if their rig worked, if everyone IDed every 10 minutes and not every 60 seconds, if people would not step on each other on repeaters and purposely interfere with stations they do not like, and if everyone including the wallflowers-- wanted to come out of their closet-- and help play with antennas-- and get some antennas up in the air, this would be a more enjoyable hobby.
I hope I can pass the extra test, because the same people are always on the 2 meter repeaters and I am tired of saying " whats' new" and hearing about drs. appointments, and how the new gun collection is this week, etc...
We have many very interesting characters on the repeaters, but I thought I heard it all when I saw the post by K6AER and I quote:"owner of the frequency" --
really now? Gee, let me apply for one....
You dont need 20 callsigns and echolink nodes and a digipeater to be a ham, just a interest in operating, and room in your head to learn....
Bob KG4RRN
Extra Class Technician, & "Potentate" of the airwaves...
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WR8D on June 7, 2007
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KE6OUD, that my friend is what it's all about. Add to all you mentioned commercial aircraft with amateurs as the captian on auto pilot out over the oceans making contacts...Several Russians on the MIR just passing over head and giving us a call... " that happened several times years ago " hi hi. I could write a book as could most others right here on this subject.
The point is...you have the right idea.
Low power is fine too but man it's really nice to be 40 over S-9 in Ireland when you want to. Predictions are saying we should see a little increase in this new solar cycle by next spring. Yeah, i'm gonna be right in the middle of it all too.
73 Welcome to the bands!!
John WR8D
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WR8D on June 7, 2007
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Bob, you'll upgrade. You'll make more "hf" friends and maybe hang around together on certain hf freqs. If you're a regular to a group "you'll" talk about the guns, fishing boats, motor cycles. The new baby one of your friends has had...it's human nature. You'll send flowers to an old friends funeral that lived thousands of miles away...just because you've talked on the air for years... We all do it from time to time before some of us go wild and chase dx.
Many older hams attach a stigma to some 11meter ops. This being the result of you reap what you have sown. Some immediately go on the defensive at the mention that others have been on 11meters.
I have some of the worse examples from both the amateur and the 11meter side living and operating in my part of the country. I can honestly say i see it from both sides. I know a "few" newbies that have made really nice amateurs. Most just want to turn our hambands into a glorified version of their bootleg cb activities here in my part of the country. I've also seen amateurs honestly eat up with dumbass too and acting worse than any freebander ever thought of...right here in East Ky and Southern Wv. I personally know two that Riley has put off the air for a while. One a long time amateur of many many years the other a newbie from the freeband ranks with over 20 years of time there on cb.
Amateur radio is what we make of it. Come into the hobby with an open mind and a desire to make new friends and to learn about it. Don't come into amateur radio from cb with a know it all attitude like so many others do.
If one has a chip on their shoulder there's plenty of good amateurs all over the world that will certainly knock it off for them.
Just some good advice!
Upgrade, get on hf and give the repeaters a break. You'll see what i'm talking about in my above comments then.
73 John WR8D
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 7, 2007
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>Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by KG4RRN on June 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
We have many very interesting characters on the repeaters, but I thought I heard it all when I saw the post by K6AER and I quote:"owner of the frequency" --
really now? Gee, let me apply for one....<
::Mike said it just about right. While nobody actually "owns" a frequency (yet), owners of coordinated repeaters are allowed frequency ownership rights in most ways. This is to say, it's already been added to Part 97 as well as hundreds of interpretations of Part 97 by the FCC's chief enforcement counsel (lots of examples posted everywhere) that if the owner of a coordinated repeater and any other amateur choosing to use the repeater's frequency are involved in a conflict, 100% of the time, the owner of the coordinated repeater wins if the FCC is involved in the decision.
This is true regarding co-channel interference disputes and also in that the FCC has "backed up" repeater owner's "DO NOT USE MY FREQUENCY" demands -- all the time. If the owner of a coordinated repeater wishes to prohibit a duly licensed amateur from using his repeater or interfering with his repeater by using its input or output frequency, FCC has backed this up in every single case.
Not quite "ownership," but pretty close!
I'm sure that's what Mike meant.
73
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4GUN on June 7, 2007
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Why is all of this so difficult? I'm a newbie. I've had some frustrations and some confusion, but nothing terribly difficult. I've been corrected exactly once and that was on a 2 meter repeater before I realized the concept of "order" when there are more than 2 people in a conversation. I heard a question asked of me and answered it. I was politely told that next time, I should wait for my turn and go back and answer the question. No problem. Now I know.
Other than the fact that its frustrating to not be heard sometimes, do you know what has been the most difficult part of being a newbie? Its figuring out what the OTs are talking about in code. I made a statement about how difficult it was to install an antenna in my attic and the response was "QSL... QSL" I made a joke and was told "Hi Hi". It took me a while to figure out what an XYL was. I have a cheat sheet next to my rig to figure out what I'm being told.
Its not terribly difficult to be a good operator. Its also not terribly difficult to be polite to the newbies. I have yet to talk to a jerk on the air. I've met a couple of jerks and corresponded to a few on the Internet, but as far as on-air experiences, they have been universally good. I think that's because its pretty easy to pick out the jerks and just not talk to them.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by 2ARADIO on June 7, 2007
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Can't believe we haven't heard from 10-10 International on this. Newbies probably need to know what's up the first time somebody asks if they have a 10-10 number. Kinda sounds like a 10-4, but not really.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 7, 2007
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W8LGZ wrote: "My genuine Thanks to you for being a military person guarding our freedom! But, NO-ONE is asking you or anyone else to take s#it from anyone here."
My military service was over a long time ago, before you were licensed. However, on your second sentence I cannot agree with you:
Take a look around at those who post in these operating articles. The vast majority are long-time
Amateur Extras (yourself being Advanced) who've had over a decade in ham radio...predating the
restructuring of 2000...most seem to have entered well before the first no-code-test Technician class
creation of 1991. The majority work "The Bands" meaning, of course, HF ham bands. In general these
folks don't consider ham bands above 30 MHz as worth much, nor the users of it as actually 'operating.'
A very few old-timers do, but they've learned to de-emphasize it due to offending the majority who've never strayed from their HF home.
The major grouping of those who post are, by photo or stated fact, middle-aged (above 40) or older. It is a
typical syndrome of middle-aged males to take on the mantle of Lecturer, a Person of Authority...whatever the subject or activity...whether or not they have real qualifications in the subject/activity beyond
their own personal experiences. Some are not aware they are Lecturing...but they are...and taking their
subject very seriously at that. [I'm not being specific about anyone, those syndromes are all found in any first-year psychology course and by prolonged life experience exposure to such]
W8LGZ: "Amateur Radio IS a fun hobby. "We" (the Old Farts, as we're called) want to preserve the "fun"
of Amateur Radio by getting the "newbies" trained in correct procedure."
Whoa. Take a good look at what you wrote, go into analytical study mode and attempt to see it as others may see it.
"Trained in correct procedure." Use proper ID and required initial information exchange, some required by law? I thought that would be a no-brainer...at least something that can be understood after a half hour's listening on a Band (HF of course). Okay, how do you "train" somebody on the air? Act superior and
use phrases like "'WE' don't say that [on ham radio]?" Actually berate them? Make fun of them? Use salesman tactics? How?
CW is almost BUILT on "correct procedure" with all its abbreviations although I'm told that very good ops
can deviate from that between themselves. Data is more flexible; with either paper (teleprinter) or screen (computer) output, the eye can see before and after as a cohesive whole as in trying to read some poorly written computer-modem messages. Voice has much more flexibility in communication with tone,
phrasing, emphasis on certain words conveying much information beyond just words...pitch indicating
gender (which would be hidden using CW or Data). Idioms ("slang") is different. Idioms pertain to
chronological age groups, common phrasings to when a speaker grew up. To younger people, idioms
from a a more recent time or allied activity ARE 'correct procedure' to them. Older people tend to forget that...and also, when they were young, their idioms weren't perceived as 'correct procedure' to even older people.
What was "fun" to even older people was not necessarily "fun" to those who are now middle-aged (or
older). There is "organized fun" with all groups of humans. Sometimes very formal fun, sometimes very
organized fun with rules and regulations for competition as in sports or model airplane contests. At some parties there can be (what I term) 'totalitarian fun' according to what the host or hostess perceives is fun which is not necessarily fun for invitees (mostly in large urban areas and among certain occupations). Hosts or hostesses don't always have the sensitivity to observe their guests' wishes since they are the 'leaders' and define everything relative to themselves. There can be "free-form fun" as at general social gatherings where there is little organization and people can mingle as they choose,
converse at length with those they feel comfortable with, be polite to those uncomfortable to be with.
There is even "fake fun" of expressing great delight in something when the expresser will privately state
they had some difficulty and with little personal fun...but it has become so conventional to state the great delight despite the hypocrisy of doing so. It's almost the Hollywoodian oxymoron of "close, personal
friend." [film and TV industry does fake fun to excess, living on making wish-fulfillment entertainment]
"Good operator." What actually defines "good?" Isn't it really what the middle-aged (and older) hams
prefer...for themselves? Now, its fairly obvious that a certain minimum of information must be exchanged
on initial contact, but what is "good" after that? Perhaps it would be best to just come out and say
directly that "all you newbies should do as WE do, then you will be 'good' [enough] to associate with us." From my chronological vantage point that is what I boil it all down to after a long observation period.
W8LGZ: "Otherwise, it WILL get out of control in time. (No, we're not the Ghestopo or something. Look
at CB when the rules were not followed or enforced)"
"11m" CB was first authorized in 1958. That's 49 years ago. WHERE were the moaners and groaners
about [evil] CB then. You couldn't do anything about it for FORTY-NINE YEARS?!? NOW you all start
complaining about certain CB phraseology that developed separately from ham radio for nearly half a
century? Sorry, I don't buy the Big Complaints over CB phraseology leaking over in some newbies' radio
use. Hams who complained bitterly about CB have simply developed a bigotry against a majority radio-
user group...complete with myths that all CB-ers run illegal power and all are freebanders. [truckers
using CB already outnumbered all licensed hams in 1977 and that continues to 2007...do some real long cross-country traveling on interstates using a CB or scanner and it will be apparent]
W8LGZ: "However, as I stated earlier, a lot of, NOT ALL "newbies" instantly go on the defensive like
someone is bashing or belittling them when constructive criticism is given. There are too many "newbies" coming on-board with the attitude of, "I don't care about the "right" way to do it." "I'm gonna do it however I want and don't care what anyone thinks!"
What I just quoted IS your being defensive (in extremis). If you wish to be "in-charge" of ethic purity on the ham bands, then you should examine your own methods of ethic purity enforcement. Not every
newbie is from CB, most are from VHF-land and have already been licensed in amateur radio.
W8LGZ: "Hear THIS, THAT is what we're trying to curb. NOT the fact that "newbies" are coming into the
hobby. "Newbies" are welcome in my book, just be open to "coaching" so you can do it right."
Yes, understood...as long as you long-timers Rule, everyone entering must do as you say. :-)
Yes, us newbies are all under your (Experienced ops) "leadership." Go ahead and LEAD.
W8LGZ: "Amateur Radio IS "self policing" which means "we" (Experienced ops) are to lead the
"newbies" in the right direction when we hear them doing something incorrectly."
As a federally-granted Amateur Extra, I'm exercising some "self-policing" about amateur radio in discussion forums by pointing out some obvious attitudes of certain long-time licensees. If you want to come unglued at negative criticsm of certain opinions of your group, that is your right...just as it is my
right to voice my opinion of you "newbie's leaders" in here or to the ARRL (I am a member) or anywhere else. [do you think Amateur Extra 'ranks' an Advanced? :-) ]
I'm not "reacting to criticsm" by "refusing to take it." Rather I'm trying to show the "newbie's leadership" how they appear to many, not just "newbies." What little amateur radio operating I've done HAS been done with what I perceive as "correct procedure" (beyond that which is lawfully necessary by regulations), just as I've tried to observe "correct procedure" in every other radio service I've operated in. I'm aware enough of current idioms to be able to understand what much younger folk are communicating...even though I seldom use such idioms with my contemporaries. I AM open to constructive criticsm, but the critic had damn well get his construct correct, understandable, viable, have some ROI for me before I will take it.
Now THIS forum isn't really the place to lecture about "correct procedure" to newbies, is it? It is highly populated with NON-newbies. Most of what goes on in these forums is simply blowing-off steam, bitching and moaning about pet peeves, some personal posturing, and a lot of high-fiving about "we ought to do something about that!" [but nobody really does]
I don't care if you take this reply as an attack or what. :-) If you really feel your personal spot in the EM spectrum of yours and your hobby radio contemporaries is in some kind of "danger," there are plenty of other places where real action can be taken. I would like to mention Special Counsel Riley
Hollingsworth's remarks at the Dayton convention this year...it can be seen at www.arrl.org. Don't take everything so seriously. Lighten up.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 7, 2007
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Mail this to a friend!
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by AF6AY on June 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Take a look around at those who post in these operating articles. The vast majority are long-time
Amateur Extras (yourself being Advanced) who've had over a decade in ham radio...predating the
restructuring of 2000...most seem to have entered well before the first no-code-test Technician class
creation of 1991. The majority work "The Bands" meaning, of course, HF ham bands. In general these
folks don't consider ham bands above 30 MHz as worth much, nor the users of it as actually 'operating.'
A very few old-timers do, but they've learned to de-emphasize it due to offending the majority who've never strayed from their HF home.<
::Nah, that's not true. Of course, it applies to some, as almost any statement applies to some. But the majority? No, not my observation. At age 55, I'm an "OT" mostly because I've been a ham more than three-fourths of my life. I've been very active on VHF-UHF-SUF-EHF and I'll bet I've worked more stuff "up there" than you will if you spend the rest of your life doing it. Put my first 2m repeater on the air in 1973. Had active VHF repeaters on both coasts at the same time for more than 20 years. Worked all states, all continents and 111 countries on 50 MHz CW-SSB. And another 43 states on 144 MHz CW-SSB. I was the "VHF" column writer/editor for CQ magazine for four years, starting with this cover shot, showing my completing my 6m 1500W amplifier: http://hamcall.net/cqcgi/?res=l&yr=1985&mo=02&pg=001&nam=DEMO&pw=47570http://hamcall.net/cqcgi/?res=l&yr=1985&mo=02&pg=001&nam=DEMO&pw=47570
>The major grouping of those who post are, by photo or stated fact, middle-aged (above 40) or older. It is a
typical syndrome of middle-aged males to take on the mantle of Lecturer, a Person of Authority...whatever the subject or activity...whether or not they have real qualifications in the subject/activity beyond
their own personal experiences. Some are not aware they are Lecturing...but they are...and taking their
subject very seriously at that. [I'm not being specific about anyone, those syndromes are all found in any first-year psychology course and by prolonged life experience exposure to such]<
::I see you have your own fan club, too, Len:
http://mailgate.dada.net/rec/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg73575.html
There's lots more where that came from, obviously. Doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to find this stuff.
Len, I'm proud of you for becoming licensed in your 70s, and I see more and more folks doing that, which is great. But of course what we really is is more young blood if the hobby is to sustain itself. I taught code classes to youngsters for more than 17 years here in the Valley and about 200 young folks, mostly in their teens, went on to become licensed at the SFVARC test sessions -- all with "code" licenses. Now that element's been eliminated as a requirement, and I'm genuinely sad about that because it was a great pre-screen. Oh well, time marches on.
The article was still an invitation, "Let's hear you on ten!" and not a set of operating instructions. If you read something into it that simply isn't there, I suspect you do a lot of response-letter writing.
Oh yes, actually, I see you have done that. It's all over the web.
73
Steve WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 7, 2007
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"The majority work "The Bands" meaning, of course, HF ham bands. In general these folks don't consider ham bands above 30 MHz as worth much, nor the users of it as actually 'operating.' A very few old-timers do, but they've learned to de-emphasize it due to offending the majority who've never strayed from their HF home. "
Not the case, Len. Not the case. EVERY ham I know personally who is active on HF is also active (to some degree or another) on VHF. Many are also on UHF. I have never heard anyone say 2m isn't "operating". It's not the same operating, the procedures are different due to the nature of the medium, but they are all ham bands.
The major difference is that 75/80m and VHF and up are to keep up with your local friends, while the others are to keep up with those a bit farther away. I can't count the number of times I have heard 40m CW in the background while chatting with friends on 2m FM.
The people you mention are the rare exception, definitely not the majority.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 7, 2007
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"do you think Amateur Extra 'ranks' an Advanced? :-) "
Nope. There are no "ranks". All are hams, just with a different set of privileges, usually related to their own interests.
I'm an Extra. I passed a slow 20 wpm code test to get it. (So what?) But I do NOT "outrank" the guy down the street who got his Tech yesterday, or my brother-in-law who still holds a Novice license. We're all just hams. If I can help the new guy set up a 10m station, great. He might be able to help me get that laptop going. :o)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by PLANKEYE on June 7, 2007
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WB2WIK STATED THIS:
>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by PLANKEYE on June 6, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Hey Steve:
Man, why would you post replies to replies to your article? Let it stand on it's own!<
::No callsign, no credibility. Why would anyone read what you have to write? I stopped after the first sentence.
--------------------------------------
PLANKEYE:
Steve:
Sorry you feel that way Steve. I'm not sure why people on this site read what I have to say. I have no Call that I post, that is enough to discredit me right away I see.
One thing Steve I find funny. You ask "why would anyone read what you have to write"? "I stopped after the first sentence".
You don't take the time to read my post, yet take the time to reply to it.
I think you read it and I left you with nothing to say, but what you said.
Good Luck Steve
PLANKEYE
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by PLANKEYE on June 7, 2007
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Hey Steve:
Man, why would you post replies to replies to your article? Let it stand on it's own!
Now you are doing exactly what everyone else does. You only have 120 lookups, obviously this obviously that, I have 500 logbooks and each has so many pages, and those pages have lines that are spaced 1/2 inch apart.
Steve, read my post above. You can't get it back Man! Those days are over! Call it what it is, get over it, and move on. Or, do what you are doing.
You can tell everyone how much you have achieved, and tell everyone how much they haven't. Or, well that is up to you!
Good Luck Steve
PLANKEYE
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 7, 2007
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"[truckers using CB already outnumbered all licensed hams in 1977 and that continues to 2007...do some real long cross-country traveling on interstates using a CB or scanner and it will be apparent] "
Irrelevant, but yeah that is true. Just don't turn the radio on if your wife or mother is with you!! :o/
The language will curl your toes!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 7, 2007
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PLANKEYE wrote:
............................................
Steve:
Sorry you feel that way Steve. I'm not sure why people on this site read what I have to say. I have no Call that I post, that is enough to discredit me right away I see.
One thing Steve I find funny. You ask "why would anyone read what you have to write"? "I stopped after
the first sentence".
You don't take the time to read my post, yet take the time to reply to it.
I think you read it and I left you with nothing to say, but what you said.
Good Luck Steve
..............................................
Well, I have no complaint on someone using a nom de plume (a pen name) but some want to go warpath against such things and imply it is a nom de guerre. :-)
What we've got is the usual Anguished Author syndrome that is oh, so common in publishing. Author writes a Very Important piece of work (to them) and gets it published. Not everyone agrees with Author's
Important Work so Author gets angry. Author begins attacking negative criticsm, implying he/she is so
very important/experienced/gifted/whatever that how could they possibly disagree? :-)
As one who has done computer-modem communications for 23 years, been co-sysop on two BBSs, I'm quite familiar with the behaviors observed in here.. There are many sides to every subject discussed but some say only their's are right. :-) Human nature remains predictable regardless of the subject.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 7, 2007
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WB2WIK wrote: "... At age 55, I'm an "OT" mostly because I've been a ham more than three-fourths of my life. I've been very active on VHF-UHF-SUF-EHF and I'll bet I've worked more stuff "up there" than you will if you spend the rest of your life doing it."
I'm sure you have. I haven't transmitted RF any higher in frequency than 25 GHz. [monopulse radar, for work, 1960s] I once "worked" a station ON the moon [1970s, before Shuttle or MIR or the space station] But, that was all involved in work things and is - from your lecturing - of no importance by a nobody.
WB2WIK: "Put my first 2m repeater on the air in 1973. Had active VHF repeaters on both coasts at the same time for more than 20 years."
That didn't violate Control Operator duties at the time? :-)
WB2WIK: "Worked all states, all continents and 111 countries on 50 MHz CW-SSB. And another 43 states on 144 MHz CW-SSB. I was the "VHF" column writer/editor for CQ magazine for four years, starting with this cover shot, showing my completing my 6m 1500W amplifier: http://hamcall.net/cqcgi/?"
Can't possibly compete with that. Not in my lifetime. I have yet to be IN all the contiguous 48 states of the USA. :-)
Since I speak Swedish, I could coach you on your acceptance speech for your Nobel Prize in Stockholm.
WB2WIK: "I see you have your own fan club, too, Len:
http://mailgate.dada.net/rec/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg73575.html"
No problem to me. Getting hate mail on controversial subjects is common. Look also on (older) newsgroups rec.radio.amateur.misc and rec.radio.amateur.homebrew besides RRAP. Since 1998. Look also at FCC Comment databases on WT Docket 98-143, BPL, the many Proposals prior to the R&O of 06-178 that eliminated the licensing code test.
Anyone looking for love, respect, or honor for posting anything on the Internet is a naive fool.
WB2WIK: "There's lots more where that came from, obviously."
Actually, not that much in regards to amateur radio. However, your pitch here is that you wish me discredited as some kind of Bad Boy because I'm not PC nor do I heap gratuitous praise upon those who list their Mighty Accomplishments in amateurism. Now all watch the immediate segue to your next quote in-line:
WB2WIK: "Len, I'm proud of you for becoming licensed in your 70s, and I see more and more folks doing that, which is great. But of course what we really is is more young blood if the hobby is to sustain itself."
Oh, wow, man, like I could give a snit whether or not YOU are "proud of me?" Foxtrot uniform to you, sweetums. :-( You've just tried to discredit me and now you say something about YOUR pride? Just what kind of god-like being do you think you are?
I made a decision with two weeks to go before 23 Feb 07, applied myself, had the confidence to pass all three amateur tests, and did it. I got handshakes from all four of my ARRL VEC examiners...they handn't had an "extra out of the box" at their sessions in a long while. I did all of that for ME, nobody else. My
quick decision to get a First 'Phone license in 1956 was done the same way, passed on the first session in Chicago. That one was harder since the train took over an hour and a half to get there whereas my ham test took place just a mile and a half down my closest major street. Do you think that test was the ONLY test I've ever taken in my life that "meant anything?" I'll bet you do.
WB2WIK: "I taught code classes to youngsters for more than 17 years here in the Valley and about 200 young folks, mostly in their teens, went on to become licensed at the SFVARC test sessions -- all with "code" licenses. Now that element's been eliminated as a requirement, and I'm genuinely sad about that because it was a great pre-screen. Oh well, time marches on."
Tsk, if I had to be "pre-screened" by a bunch of full-of-themselves Extras, I never would have thought about getting an amateur radio license.
WB2WIK: "The article was still an invitation, "Let's hear you on ten!" and not a set of operating instructions. If you read something into it that simply isn't there, I suspect you do a lot of response-letter writing."
Oh, my, more attempts to discredit critics. Anguished Author fails to get universal praise for his Mighty Work and immediately gets angry. SOP. Nothing unusual about that. Happens all the time.
WB2WIK: "Oh yes, actually, I see you have done that. It's all over the web."
Thanks for the publicity but my agent has been busy with PR for years. When do you judge my trial in Nuremburg? [must I wear an SS uniform? I'll have to get one from Western Costume}
*
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 7, 2007
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"[truckers using CB already outnumbered all licensed hams in 1977 and that continues to 2007...do some real long cross-country traveling on interstates using a CB or scanner and it will be apparent] "
Irrelevant, but yeah that is true. Just don't turn the radio on if your wife or mother is with you!! :o/
The language will curl your toes!!
....................
Mine don't. My late first wife would have corrected grammar and added some choice explitives. My wife is a retired social worker and has heard much worse than the blabberings of some non-trucking CBers.
In driving cross-country CA to IL/WI and back between 1977 and 2005 (roughly 2000 miles one-way) I've never heard anything objectionable on the interstates during any trip. I'm not boosting CB or condemning it, but the behavior of truckers on highways using CB sounded quite ordinary and civil.
AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 7, 2007
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K4JF wrote:
..................................
"do you think Amateur Extra 'ranks' an Advanced? :-) "
Nope. There are no "ranks". All are hams, just with a different set of privileges, usually related to their own interests.
I'm an Extra. I passed a slow 20 wpm code test to get it. (So what?) But I do NOT "outrank" the guy down the street who got his Tech yesterday, or my brother-in-law who still holds a Novice license. We're all just hams.
...................................
Good grief, Jim, what a Pollyanna-ish crock you wrote. It would be a good topic for Sunday's sermon in Newington, perhaps, but it is SO in the clouds and out of nitty-gritty real world that it isn't worth belaboring. So I won't. :-(
K4JF: "If I can help the new guy set up a 10m station, great."
It is considered noble to say such things. Very commendable. Have you ever done it? I've never done anything similar since 1962, helping a friend put up a 6m antenna.
K4JF: "He might be able to help me get that laptop going."
You haven't figured out how to get a personal computer going? Tsk, tsk.
AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 7, 2007
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K4JF wrote: "The people you mention are the rare exception, definitely not the majority."
Perhaps in your circle but not what I've observed. There are over 700 thousand amateur radio licensees in the USA and its possession. None of us can know them all. Yet you claim rightness and say I am wrong. Don't belabor the point. I could argue my side for hours, with documentary proof to show I was correct, but the computer jury would not be in full agreement.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by 2ARADIO on June 8, 2007
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I love it when posters write constant mult-page diatribes and then end their post with "Don't take everything so seriously. Lighten up." !!!
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KG4FET on June 8, 2007
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I agree for the most part. I have had a fairly positive experience with the newbies on 10 M.I will say that it has not been the flood of folks on 10 that we had hoped for locally. Most of the hams I have spoken to on 10M during the recent band openings have been generals and extras. These folks have been locked into FM on VHF to long and it's time they pulled those old radios out of the closets and put up a dipole or trimed a 11M antenna for 10 m and have a blast.
I even brought back a net that had taken a respite for a while on 28.390 called the Wacky Wingding net. We run on Monday Nights rom 7-8 EST. This is a chance for techs to get in with the experienced hams and ask questions and learn. So please join us there and exercise the new HF priledges you have, because it will only get better on 10 M as the sunspot cycle increases.
73
de KG4FEt Sandor Jacksonville FL EM90dh
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 8, 2007
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"In driving cross-country CA to IL/WI and back between 1977 and 2005 (roughly 2000 miles one-way) I've never heard anything objectionable on the interstates during any trip."
I have traveled the same or more, 43 states, actually.
All I can say is: your standard of "objectional" and mine are evidently quite different.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 8, 2007
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KG4FET, good observations. I've actually worked quite a number of "newbies" (new licenses, or new upgrades) on 10m recently -- past few weeks. Not many have been local, they've mostly been via sporadic-E.
You're in JAX: Is the night club, "57 Heaven" on Atlantic Boulevard still there? Used to go there almost every Friday night with the XYL when we were dating, long ago. I miss it.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 8, 2007
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""I'm an Extra. I passed a slow 20 wpm code test to get it. (So what?) But I do NOT "outrank" the guy down the street who got his Tech yesterday, or my brother-in-law who still holds a Novice license. We're all just hams."
Good grief, Jim, what a Pollyanna-ish crock you wrote. It would be a good topic for Sunday's sermon in Newington, perhaps, but it is SO in the clouds and out of nitty-gritty real world that it isn't worth belaboring. So I won't. :-( "
Then don't, because you are completely wrong. I base MY observation on 32+ years of operating, thousands of QSOs with 50 states and 200 countries, from 8 different station locations. All well documented. The REAL world that exists outside of someone's imagination. Your documented basis?
K4JF: "If I can help the new guy set up a 10m station, great."
It is considered noble to say such things. Very commendable. Have you ever done it? I've never done anything similar since 1962, helping a friend put up a 6m antenna."
Yes, many times. I have also been on the receiving end of such help, many times (I moved a lot in my career). That is NORMAL among hams, always has been. When you have been on the bands a bit longer you will find out the truth, IF you open up and allow help (and be available for return).
Example: I mentioned on the repeater that I'll be moving my station in a few weeks. Already 2 hams have volunteered to help with antenna and tower move, WITHOUT being asked. That is typical, and I've seen it all over. THAT is the real world of ham radio.
So I repeat: I do NOT "outrank" the guy down the street who got his Tech yesterday, or my brother-in-law who still holds a Novice license. We're all just hams.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 8, 2007
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"K4JF wrote: "The people you mention are the rare exception, definitely not the majority."
Perhaps in your circle but not what I've observed."
Then my opinion is that you need to open your eyes and look around you, without the negative expectations. There are a whole lot of great people out there. I know - I've talked to a lot of them! All over the US and 200 countries. I wouldn't call that "my circle".
If you look for bad intently enough, you can always find it. Look for the good in people, it's there, in greater abundance!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 8, 2007
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K4JF: "So I repeat: I do NOT "outrank" the guy down the street who got his Tech yesterday, or my brother-in-law who still holds a Novice license. We're all just hams."
Then why are there three classes of amateur radio licenses now, with three more classes still on the books (but not granted new) after Restructuring of 2000? Aren't we all "just hams?"
Why were there FIVE classes of licenses before 1991, expanded to SIX classes with the creation of the no-code-test Technician? Aren't we all "just hams?"
In 1912, with the first US radio regulating agency, there was just one class of license, not even called a "class." Everyone licensed then were "all hams." [the term ham was just beginning to become widespread then, even though it was originally a pejorative] 1912 was 95 years ago.
It would be logical to have a "conditional" class of license around the WWII period. Radio operator tests were done only at FCC Field Offices and personal transport wasn't readily available to all. It was conditional only due to geographic location and there were quasi-equivalent volunteer examiners around then.
Ah, but one has to "upgrade" to "earn more privileges" is the excuse. Why are there privileges for some classes but not for others if "all are just hams?" Oh, that's because of the government! is the rationalization, it's all their fault! :-) Nobody lobbied the FCC for amateur radio? The ARRL did in 1918. Did Maxim go to Washington or not? The ARRL has had both a legal firm on retainer AND a professional lobbying group in DC for years. Of course there has been lobbying by/for amateur radio by various groups since the year dot.
Can you blame the ITU for creating all those classes? Not really. The original Radio Regulations of predecessor organization CCITT simply required all administrations to test for morse code to get an amateur radio license. No class of license involved. Non-USA administrations pressured the ITU to differentiate operating privileges above and below 30 MHz so they could create the "T-Ham" (one of several terms foreign to our shores) with reduced code rate testing or none at all. The USA was a late-comer with Docket 90-43 to create the first USA no-code-test-required amateur license...amidst much outcry among the already-licensed who were "all just hams."
Have you read ANY of the Comments made to the FCC about the many Petitions about the code test retention-elimination and the NPRM on it? I have. All that were ever posted for public view. Fills three CDs. Those represent a WIDE view of "all who are just hams." Indeed, some of those who "were just hams" spoke bitterly against those already licensed (and were all just hams). Some had years and years of experience and were dead-set against younger hams trying to change their world. All were just hams, right?
You have NEVER seen or heard anyone remark about license class level in any communication?!? If so, then you have been blinded and deafened by delusion in a Pollyanna world of ham boosterism. The Lectures on rank go on and on...especially those by hams having reached the top of the amateur food chain. Yes, we are all just hams - provided all follow the sayings of those already at the top. :-)
Caution: Avoid watching morning TV kiddie shows featuring a purple dinosaur. Not mentally healthy for adults; wishful thinking isn't reality.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4FX on June 8, 2007
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AF6AY
Well in NC you sure wouldn't want any small children or females in your family listening to ch 19, it's a shame the kind of language they use, I once heard a fellow mention that others were listening and he was cussed for everything you could imagine, every curse word in the book was throw at him and he was told they didn't give a *&^% who was listening. They have no business at all with any type of radio at their disposal.
I used to listen to CH 19 for traffic info on my 857D but nowadays it's only X-rated language and really nothing of any benefit to be heard, now you let someone talk like that in front of THEIR kids and they'd be really shoot someone..... perfect examples of the redneck species.
If the FCC wants to levy about a half mil in fines just spend an afternoon in south central NC
RUFF
K4FX
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 8, 2007
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"Ah, but one has to "upgrade" to "earn more privileges" is the excuse. Why are there privileges for some classes but not for others if "all are just hams?"
The privileges are earned by passing the various tests. But there are no ranks. I have absolutely no authority over any other ham. Nor do you. Get it out of your head that there are ranks, there are none. If you try to tell a Technician, or a Novice, even, what to do they will rightly tell you to "shove it" or worse!!
There are no ranks. There are levels of license that convey certain privileges commisurate with the license. They are not ranks, and no one has any authority based on their license.
In 32 years, I have never heard of any ham being anything but a ham. Of course that was only a few thousands of QSOs, with 50 states and 200 countries. When you have 32+ years, and that broad an experience, you are free to disagree (if you want to then). Until then, don't try to pull rank on anybody. You don't have any. Neither do I.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 8, 2007
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"If the FCC wants to levy about a half mil in fines just spend an afternoon in south central NC
RUFF
K4FX"
Agreed. It's even worse in Jawja, Ruff!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W9ZXT on June 8, 2007
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Steve:
I liked your post and your insight, however, the sky might be falling a bit. Don't you think?
Best 73 Steve
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 8, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by W9ZXT on June 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Steve:
I liked your post and your insight, however, the sky might be falling a bit. Don't you think?
Best 73 Steve<
::Doesn't matter. I have insurance.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 8, 2007
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K4FG If my Captain heard me state Left and right on this vessel when it comes to navigation he would take me off the bridge. As in shipping there is a right way and wrong way. Port is Left and Starboad is Right.
If in a conversation,and I have had a few where some one asked a question like the Heater or Pillbox I would probably ask him/her to speak in Ham terms more than a new language no one but him understands.
The new guys as mentioned need to listen to the old timers when it comes to voice ops.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W8LGZ on June 9, 2007
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AF6AY: My military service was over a long time ago, before you were licensed.
WWII or Iraq, makes no difference. Thanks anyway.
AF6AY: Take a look around at those who post in these operating articles. The vast majority are long-time
Amateur Extras (yourself being Advanced) who've had over a decade in ham radio...predating the restructuring of 2000...most seem to have entered well before the first no-code-test Technician class
creation of 1991. The majority work "The Bands" meaning, of course, HF ham bands. In general these
folks don't consider ham bands above 30 MHz as worth much, nor the users of it as actually 'operating.'
A very few old-timers do, but they've learned to de-emphasize it due to offending the majority who've never strayed from their HF home.
Why are you assuming that I don't consider the world above 30 MHz as worth much? I consider it all valuable, DC to Daylight.
AF6AY: Whoa. Take a good look at what you wrote, go into analytical study mode and attempt to see it as others may see it.
"Trained in correct procedure." Use proper ID and required initial information exchange, some required by law? I thought that would be a no-brainer...at least something that can be understood after a half hour's listening on a Band (HF of course). Okay, how do you "train" somebody on the air? Act superior and
use phrases like "'WE' don't say that [on ham radio]?" Actually berate them? Make fun of them? Use salesman tactics? How?
No. Although saying, "We don't say this or that or do this or that on Amateur Radio." is pretty much the only way to get it done. Berate or make fun of them or salesman tactics? No. Try to explain to them that is not the way it's done and show (tell) them (Dare I say it?)the "correct" way do it. (Sorry Len, I know you don't like when I use the term "correct") As for things being a "no brainer", listen long enough and you'll see that the apparent "no brainer" to some is not to others even after several months.
AF6AY: -rambling- What was "fun" to even older people was not necessarily "fun" to those who are now middle-aged (or older). There is "organized fun" with all groups of humans. Sometimes very formal fun,sometimes very organized fun with rules and regulations for competition as in sports or model airplane contests. At some parties there can be (what I term) 'totalitarian fun' according to what the host or hostess perceives is fun which is not necessarily fun for invitees (mostly in large urban areas and among certain occupations). Hosts or hostesses don't always have the sensitivity to observe their guests' wishes since they are the 'leaders' and define everything relative to themselves. There can be "free-form fun" as at general social gatherings where there is little organization and people can mingle as they choose, converse at length with those they feel comfortable with, be polite to those uncomfortable to be with. There is even "fake fun" of expressing great delight in something when the expresser will privately state they had some difficulty and with little personal fun...but it has become so conventional to state the great delight despite the hypocrisy of doing so. It's almost the Hollywoodian oxymoron of "close, personal friend." [film and TV industry does fake fun to excess, living on making wish-fulfillment entertainment]
I'm not saying that newbies or anyone else for that matter has to "follow a written script" so to speak as to how or what to say on the air. But, I am saying that learning things like...oh, I don't know...LISTEN before you transmit so as not to interrupt a conversation already underway or lose the CB lingo or use minimum power required to maintain contact (not full power all the time), etc. I have heard "newbies" doing all of the things I listed and many more. Why? Because they either don't know or don't care to know.
AF6AY: "Good operator." What actually defines "good?" Isn't it really what the middle-aged (and older) hams
prefer...for themselves? Now, its fairly obvious that a certain minimum of information must be exchanged
on initial contact, but what is "good" after that? Perhaps it would be best to just come out and say
directly that "all you newbies should do as WE do, then you will be 'good' [enough] to associate with us." From my chronological vantage point that is what I boil it all down to after a long observation period.
No. A "good" operator is one who follows the rules (There I go again, another phrase you don't seem to like me to use.), makes sure their equipment is operating properly (not having the modulation cranked to maximum,etc) and is curitous on the air. I know, there are a lot of "old heads" that don't fit that criteria. I'll give you that.
AF6AY: "11m" CB was first authorized in 1958. That's 49 years ago. WHERE were the moaners and groaners
about [evil] CB then.
CB wasn't out of control 49 years ago. It is today.
AF6AY: [truckers using CB already outnumbered all licensed hams in 1977 and that continues to 2007...do some real long cross-country traveling on interstates using a CB or scanner and it will be apparent]
Useless statistics. Statistics can be skewed nearly any way a person wants. Maybe they do outnumber licensed hams, maybe they don't. Unimportant.
AF6AY: What I just quoted IS your being defensive (in extremis). If you wish to be "in-charge" of ethic purity on the ham bands, then you should examine your own methods of ethic purity enforcement. Not every
newbie is from CB, most are from VHF-land and have already been licensed in amateur radio.
If you consider not wanting Amateur Radio to go the way of CB "defensive", you're absolutely right! No, every "newbie" isn't from CB and those that are just coming into HF operation SHOULD have basic operation under control by now. A lot don't. VHF and HF aren't THAT different basically. Although HF does have unique "tricks" of its own.
AF6AY: Yes, understood...as long as you long-timers Rule, everyone entering must do as you say. :-)
Sarcasm
AF6AY: Yes, us newbies are all under your (Experienced ops) "leadership." Go ahead and LEAD.
We can't lead. You refuse to follow.
AF6AY: As a federally-granted Amateur Extra, I'm exercising some "self-policing" about amateur radio in discussion forums by pointing out some obvious attitudes of certain long-time licensees. If you want to come unglued at negative criticsm of certain opinions of your group, that is your right...just as it is my right to voice my opinion of you "newbie's leaders" in here or to the ARRL (I am a member) or anywhere else. [do you think Amateur Extra 'ranks' an Advanced? :-) ]
Only in word. Not deed (experience). I don't see what "class" (For lack of a better word)of license one holds as "rank". After all, this isn't the military.
AF6AY: I'm not "reacting to criticsm" by "refusing to take it." Rather I'm trying to show the "newbie's leadership" how they appear to many, not just "newbies." What little amateur radio operating I've done HAS been done with what I perceive as "correct procedure" (beyond that which is lawfully necessary by regulations), just as I've tried to observe "correct procedure" in every other radio service I've operated in. I'm aware enough of current idioms to be able to understand what much younger folk are communicating...even though I seldom use such idioms with my contemporaries. I AM open to constructive criticsm, but the critic had damn well get his construct correct, understandable, viable, have some ROI for me before I will take it.
There is "perceived" correct procedure and then there is correct procedure. They are not one in the same. I can give someone the "perception" that I'm doing something when in fact I'm just wasting time. Like trying to get through to some "newbies".
AF6AY: Now THIS forum isn't really the place to lecture about "correct procedure" to newbies, is it? It is highly populated with NON-newbies. Most of what goes on in these forums is simply blowing-off steam, bitching and moaning about pet peeves, some personal posturing, and a lot of high-fiving about "we ought to do something about that!" [but nobody really does]
Yes, this place is full of Non-newbies. However, there are many newbies here as well. As for the blowing-off steam, etc... I agree.
AF6AY: I don't care if you take this reply as an attack or what. :-) If you really feel your personal spot in the EM spectrum of yours and your hobby radio contemporaries is in some kind of "danger," there are plenty of other places where real action can be taken. I would like to mention Special Counsel Riley
Hollingsworth's remarks at the Dayton convention this year...it can be seen at www.arrl.org. Don't take everything so seriously. Lighten up.
I don't take it as an attack or otherwise, I'm not thin-skinned. Amateur Radio will be in danger if it's allowed to "run-amuck", that's what the "old heads" are trying to prevent. This newbie croud needs to relax, and allow the experienced ops to help them along. Quit thinking you now everything about the hobby the day you get your license. Believe it or not Len, IF you will allow yourself, you MAY just learn a new trick from the "old heads" in Amateur Radio. Granted, if you're as experienced as you say, and at this point I take your word for it, technologically you know your stuff. Share it. But don't think you know all there is to know about Amateur Radio after 3 +/- months. You don't! I don't know everything after 25+ years, won't try to blow smoke up anyone's behind about it either.
Long and short, I think you're misunderstanding most of the "old head's" stance. We're not trying to discourage newbies but, we don't want newbies coming into the hobby and turn it into a free-for-all either. Preserve the past to ensure the future.
"Newbies" need to LEARN the basics not just memorize the answers from the study(?) manual, a lot of them don't comprehend most of what they "studied." I have read posts on here from new Techs asking if they were allowed to operate on 6 mtrs with a Tech license. If memory serves, that's one of the first things covered in the study manual! Rookie mistakes are one thing, down right not grasping the clearly spelled out information in your hand is another.
From what I've read of your responces to me and others Len, you are definately on the defensive. It's attitudes such as yours (The "I don't need your help") that is causing many "old heads" to throw up their hands and not want to Elmer any more. Why waste our time? You already know it all!
73, Jim - W8LGZ
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K3UD on June 9, 2007
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Len,
Congratulations on the Extra. Hope to hear you on the air sometime. I always enjoyed our exchanges on the usenet a number of years ago.
73
George
K3UD (ex WA3DNC - W3GEO)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 9, 2007
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"Have you read ANY of the Comments made to the FCC about the many Petitions about the code test retention-elimination and the NPRM on it? I have. All that were ever posted for public view. Fills three CDs. Those represent a WIDE view of "all who are just hams." Indeed, some of those who "were just hams" spoke bitterly against those already licensed (and were all just hams). Some had years and years of experience and were dead-set against younger hams trying to change their world. All were just hams, right? "
Very good, Len *chuckle* You are exactly right. They ALL had their say, right or wrong (in your OR my opinion) and every one had exactly the same authority to speak and make their wishes known. They are all "just hams". No rank. Thanks for helping prove my point.
Yes, some people THINK they have rank, but the FCC makes it abundantly clear that they are wrong. And the comment procedure is one of those ways.
(And, btw, the stoopid purple dinosaur was never allowed in my house, especially when my kids were young.)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 9, 2007
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"If my Captain heard me state Left and right on this vessel when it comes to navigation he would take me off the bridge. As in shipping there is a right way and wrong way. Port is Left and Starboad is Right. "
Chuckle. Correct! But port is left and starboard is right ONLY if you are facing forward. If you are facing aft, port is right and starboard is left. That is the reason those terms are used instead of "left" and "right". Clarity.
73
Cap'n Jim, s/v Dreamcatcher
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC5CQD on June 9, 2007
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"The point of the article was to invite people onto the band, not to scare them away from it: Hence the title.
WB2WIK/6"
And that's precisely what I'm doing! hihi! I invite anyone within range of the Monterey Peninsula to give me a shout on ten meters. Regardless of license class! As long as you're legal, that is. I'd genuinely love to hear more activity on that band. It's hard to beat for audio quality.
73'3
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC5CQD on June 9, 2007
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"The point of the article was to invite people onto the band, not to scare them away from it: Hence the title.
WB2WIK/6"
And that's precisely what I'm doing! hihi! I invite anyone within range of the Monterey Peninsula to give me a shout on ten meters. Regardless of license class! As long as you're legal, that is. I'd genuinely love to hear more activity on that band. It's hard to beat for audio quality.
73'3
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 9, 2007
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K4JF: "Yes, some people THINK they have rank, but the FCC makes it abundantly clear that they are wrong. And the comment procedure is one of those ways."
Ah, the crux of the matter...what people THINK they have! :-) We do agree on that. Youbetcha.
Doesn't faze some folks, though, what they THINK they have becomes their own reality regardless of what the 'real reality' is. :-)
K4JF: "(And, btw, the stoopid purple dinosaur was never allowed in my house, especially when my kids were young.)"
Welp, as a 'great-grand' I totally agree with you there. But that burple creature won AWARDS for the human creatures that created it! Makes all the difference to some, those awards. "Proof" of greatness or something. See any parallels in the activities of US amateur radio? :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 9, 2007
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K3UD: "Congratulations on the Extra. Hope to hear you on the air sometime. I always enjoyed our exchanges on the usenet a number of years ago."
Hay George! Thank you. Didn't recognize your new call...(a unique surname like McCouch sticks in the memory though). Good to see you (so to speak). :-)
Yah, I decided in the last two weeks (before the sky fell on coders) to go for broke (as KH6 natives say) and did it. Brand new station, too, but didn't break my bank account either...haven't had an amateur radio station before. But, I'm still in "denied territory" over here on e-ham as you've no doubt noticed. :-)
RRAP of usenet fell to pieces with some anony-mousies blabbering about sex and homosexuality and no one in the usenet ruling council did anything about it except create a new moderated newsgroup which went ultra-pure and thus sees little activity except notices from organizations. <shrug>
Can only work NVIS-mode for most of the rest of the contiguous 48 from here, but that's for the very near future. Hang in there, George, goodtaseeya!
73, Len AF6AY [ af6ay@arrl.org LenAnderson@ieee.org ]
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 9, 2007
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"Doesn't faze some folks, though, what they THINK they have becomes their own reality regardless of what the 'real reality' is. :-) "
heh, heh, heh.... very true. But just let me try to "pull rank" on some of the Generals around here, who have been there 20 years longer than I, and I would get my liticiples handed to me on a platter!! :o)
And they would be exactly RIGHT!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N4LI on June 9, 2007
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I have heard many (obvious) Newbies over the past few weeks on 10 meters. Sure, they can and do sound a little rough at times, but, when we first got on, didn't we?
I can't speak for all on this site, but I can tell you, I am sure that I did a few things that made me sound like a lunkhead when I was first licensed. But, after some operating time, I got it down. So, I will gladly cut these guys some slack. In fact, when I hear one, I make a point to call him. Dude needs the practice.
One thing was mentioned in the principle article that jumped out at me. The author wrote, "The first caller didn't use my callsign when calling me...." OK. I work a lot of 6m. A LOT. Often, especially during contests and bigger band openings, one can get a bit of a pile when calling CQ -- big fun, really. Frankly, I don't want the callers using my call sign when returning a CQ. Heck, I KNOW WHO I AM. It's their call I want. Calling, "N4LI, N4LI, from KI4xxx" just wastes time. In piles, callsign only, please.
Peter, N4LI
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 9, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by AF6AY on June 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Can only work NVIS-mode for most of the rest of the contiguous 48 from here, but that's for the very near future.<
::A perfect "newbie-ism." I love it.
Quick reality check: Unless you're operating only below 5 MHz, you won't be working NVIS at all. And when you do work NVIS, it sure won't be to many of the 48 states, using legal limit amateur power levels. I'd guess, from southern California, probably four or five states maximum.
Perfect example of what 50 years of credentials won't get you: Practical experience with HF propagation.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by W8LGZ on June 9, 2007
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Careful Steve, Len might think you're trying to tell him how to do something.
Jim -W8LGZ
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 10, 2007
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Since I very seldom ever listen to US on 10 meters due to my side of the world location. I hope that the new gang get involved and listen to the advice of the old timers. Most 10 meters I do occassionally hear ain't in America but in the South east asia area. I spenmd most of my time on 40m<7085 khz>,20m<14305 khz> and occassionally on 15m all of 21100-21350>. Where I chat with the kids from China and Taiwan.
Larry,n6hpx/du1
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 10, 2007
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WB2WIK: [on my short reply to George McCouch, K3UD] "...Can only work NVIS-mode for most of the rest of the contiguous 48 from here, but that's for the very near future."
WB2WIK::"A perfect "newbie-ism." I love it."
I am glad you are entertained.
WB2WIK: "Quick reality check: Unless you're operating only below 5 MHz, you won't be working NVIS at all. And when you do work NVIS, it sure won't be to many of the 48 states, using legal limit amateur power levels. I'd guess, from southern California, probably four or five states maximum."
I've never stated that I expect to work the world on amateur radio bands from my residence. I live IN the Verdugo Hills and am limited by those hills to the north to the east (roughly 20 degrees from horizontal to the ridge lines). From the southwest corner of the USA every direction north to east takes in most of the contiguous 48 states I've lived here for the last 44 years, do not intend to move in the near future, certainly not to compete with self-defined masters of HF radio. [how could I, a mere mortal?] Neither can I possibly hope to accumulate 300+ logbooks of amateur radio operations in my lifetime.
Nevis mode has been doctrine in US military land forces HF-VHF radio operation for over 20 years. It is NOT "limited only below 5 MHz." US military land forces operate mainly in the 30 to 88 MHz region; while they do have 3 to 30 MHz field radios, those are not the main for tactical operations. Nevis propagation (that's the pronunciation form of the acronym NVIS) is used mainly for under-300 statute mile ranges in military field operations and is quite useful in terrain that limits direct line of sight or to-the-horizon-line radio paths such as in hills, mountains, dense jungle, etc. There is more on NVIS at NIST, even a document on NVIS at NTIS.
For those who refuse to believe radio propagation modes other than those published by authorized amateur radio organizations, I direct attention to the following PowerPoint at the ARRL:
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/ead/materials/NVIS.ppt
That was prepared by Norm Fusaro, W3IZ, and dated 6/9/07. It's a good PowerPoint. It has a few historical notes such as the first apparent use of near vertical incidence skywave propagation used by General Rommel's Africa Korps during WWII in North Africa. It also shows modern HMMVs with their long whip antennas tied down to maximize radiation at a high angle, specifically for nevis mode operation. There are several amateur radio operator authored sources of various NVIS antennas and "cloud-burner" use, even several mentions by L.B.Cebik on his website and on Antennex.
There is even an article on e-ham here on NVIS, circa 2002. In the responses is one from WB2WIK where he describes his own personal mobile installation which is claimed better than the article's author.
A simple Search will also turn up several DoD documents on NVIS cleared for public dissemination. One such is TM-11-5985-379-14&P on Antenna AS-2259/GR dated 14 February 1986. That one was used with the now-obsolete AN/PRC-47 HF transceiver, replaced by the newer IHFR AN/PRC-104 (smaller, better, lighter and includes its own whip and automatic antenna tuner). I have my own copies of TMs and FMs, obtained as a civilian and also cleared for public dissemination; others can get them also although it is a chore since the layers and limitations imposed post-September-11-2001 on most government websites.
WB2WIK: "Perfect example of what 50 years of credentials won't get you: Practical experience with HF propagation."
I don't claim "credentials on HF propagation." I have none, save for a copy of an assignment posting to a large Army HF communications station in 1953...where I continued until 1956. As for "practical experience with HF operation," I had to make my own document of that rare experience, vetted by N2JTV who served with me there at the same time and a retired civilian engineer working there, both getting copies long before uploading at:
http://sujan.hallikainen.org/BroadcastHistory/uploads/My3Years.pdf
That isn't "practical experience with amateur radio" of course since it involved 24/7 HF communications for the military linking Japan across the Pacific to the USA, Okinawa, Phillippines, Vietnam in the 1950s.
However, HF is still HF and the physics of electromagnetic waves and their propagation doesn't change between human-defined radio services. Most of my "practical experience in HF" has been involved with a very few experiments to improve BC reception on HF at my residence or a quick throw-together CB antenna in the early 1960s. I can't claim or list dozens of antennas at my 'QTH' since the 1/3-acre site won't support many, nor do I want to live IN any sort of radio station. You apparently sneer at book learning? I've gone over dozens and dozens of texts on RF propagation, some out of personal interest, some a necessity for work or college. My "practical experience" in RF propagation has been for work in the EM spectrum above 30 MHz, the sole exception (while involved in metrology) being WWV HF reception when those transmitters were in the east. I've studied a lot of theory on EM propagation, but that isn't enough for many...although a reasoned proposal based solely on theory is considered adequate for multi-million dollar contract awards. I have to ask, am I expected to DENY all that accumulation of information on entering any amateur radio band? Choose ONLY that which has appeared in ARRL official documents? I am well aware that all I have learned is inadequate for your judgement of myself but the ARRL VEC tested me and the FCC granted me my amateur radio license. I cannot serve TWO masters. I choose the FCC. QRT.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 10, 2007
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K4JF the ship here is USNS and the crew is civilian, were merchant seaman on a navy vessel. But our captain is strictly by the book. When he say port he means port no matter what way you look...
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 10, 2007
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Your captain is right. Port is port no matter which way you look. That was my point. Port and "left" are not the same thing, because if you are facing aft, starboard is on your left. THAT is why you use port and starboard - they are always the same no matter which way you are looking.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 11, 2007
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I have to laughed tonite as one of my fellow shipmates made comment that Radio is an outdated communications and is no longer important. So I asked what is your replacement. TV. Says its the new modern technology. I told him to read the book on TV and how far back it was invented. Maybe thats where todays youth is going.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 11, 2007
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That's funny. Tell him the first TV was transmitted from a ham radio station in 1932. That will mess with his mind!! TV is OLD stuff! (Plus, TV is just another form of radio. It takes radio signals to carry TV.)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 11, 2007
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And tell your shipmate that a heckuvva lot of cellphone users will tell you they are modern and not outdated. Cellphones are just one more form of 2-way radio. They even go by the name of "wireless" which is what radios were called when first invented, before the word "radio" became popular.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 11, 2007
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Thats true we were off Guam twice in 24 hours and the first approach was at 25 miles out, no connection with the cell sites. The 2nd approach I was able to text my wife in Manila and phone later, but had to secure early when our Helo's were landing, I could hear the police frequencies on 800 mhz at more than 50 to 60 miles out.
Also I mentioned to him to check out the internet comments on TV as I recall it was invented in 1923. But the person who invented it refuse to own one in the home.
TV in my home is ok but my shack isn't connected to one except for use on my TV cameras.
Larry,n6hpx/du1
marine mobile on the Kiska
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 11, 2007
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Depends on how you define "invented." The elements of television cameras, transmitters and receivers were invented over a period of several years by several parties but a real working demonstration of transmitting a television signal over a distance, and receiving it to produce a picture occurred in 1927:
>1927
Bell Telephone and the U.S. Department of Commerce conduct the first long distance use of television that took place between Washington D.C. and New York City on April 9th. Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover commented, “Today we have, in a sense, the transmission of sight for the first time in the world’s history. Human genius has now destroyed the impediment of distance in a new respect, and in a manner hitherto unknown.”
Philo Farnsworth, files for a patent on the first complete electronic television system, which he called the Image Dissector.<
-WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K6LHA on June 11, 2007
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K4JF: "And tell your shipmate that a heckuvva lot of cellphone users will tell you they are modern and not outdated. Cellphones are just one more form of 2-way radio. They even go by the name of "wireless" which is what radios were called when first invented, before the word "radio" became popular."
Ahem..."wireless" is popularly used in the UK in reference to 'radio.' In North America 'radio' became commonplace before WWII. "Wireless" came into vogue again after the PC explosion and use in business, plus several Personal Radio Service expansions (most using unlicensed, short-range, low-power devices now exemplified by the Bluetooth headsets stuck in so many 'civilian' ears). When business users boosted PC sales the LAN was the thing, the Local Area Network. One problem was that LANs were hard-wired at first, not just a cost factor but a nuisance in many places such as big warehouses. Thus was born the WLAN or WIRELESS LAN. No wires, no nuisance, good enough to reach large warehouses or multiple floors of a business. A big thing in business applications and "wireless" was the new buzzword found in all the industry trade magazines.
As the W of WLAN became popular, "wireless" was applied to just about any form of communications not involving wired connections, one-way or two-way. Again, the business trades continued the buzzword use of "wireless." [business trade magazines FAR outnumber amateur radio periodicals] Mention "wireless" today to anyone and - generally - the first thing to come to the civilian mind is the Thing that bites so many ears named after a legendary Scandinavian king named Harald. :-)
Personally, I think too many get too hung up on PROPER words and phrases...almost to the point that some kind of felony is charged with improper word/phrase use!
Not having served in the USN or USCG, I could care less if one side of a ship/boat is called "port" or the other one "starboard." I know of it but don't expect to be keelhauled for improper use (keel-hauling was a severe punishment for sailors in sailing days). If I go up a ladderway (stairs) to above-decks (the floor above) or check the deck (floor) to see if it needs chipping (remove paint by chisel or scraper). If a toilet session is needed I wouldn't go to the poop deck but rather to the head (toilet). Our residence has no yardarm and the land in the back is simply the back yard. Do mariners have special terminology for trees or sidewalks or streets? :-)
In my bachelor days driving a '53 Austin-Healey sports car, I would use it to "knock up a girlfriend" (visit her, first knocking on the door of her flat (apartment)). [car was not egonomically configured for that sort of thing] Some English colloquialisms just don't make it across the Pond (Atlantic Ocean). That fine, fun UK automobile had a boot (trunk) and a bonnet (hood) and a windscreen (windshield) and accumulators (batteries). Not to mention tyres instead of tires. :-) I got along just fine with Brit terms but some rodders (fast car afficionados) hated such foreign words. <shrug>
In radio (wireless) some Brits get their knickers in a knot (underwear bunched, meaning disturbed or irritated) over using 'antennas' instead of the "proper" word aerial. :-) Radio amateurs seldom realize that 'ham' was once a nasty term used by professional telegraphers to apply to amateurs (for their non-professional keying and procedure) and radio amateurs have tried desperately ever since to become as professional as possible. :-) The word 'ham' is still a pejorative in show business...such as "ham actor" (bad acting or chewing the scenery in over-acting). Astronauts assigned to get a Technician amateur radio license to do PR from space for NASA are always reported by the ARRL as "ham astronauts" with the implication that ham radio was somehow responsible for them becoming astronauts, something always missing from astronauts' biographies at NASA. The late Marlon Brando has been reported to have had an amateur radio license but no one in the movie business (in their right artistic or financial mind) would call him a "ham actor." :-)
It's nice that John Logie Baird, a talented inventor Scotsman, made several innovative, successful television systems, all involving mechanical works. However, neither his, nor the Nipkow scanner nor the photocell-pickup, neon-bulb-pixel screen showing Felix the Cat, ever became practical television components for the consumer market then or today. Observed on last week's shopping trips, a handheld portable all-channel (analog format only) full-color TV receiver, lower in price than a selection of cell phones featuring image capture and transmission. All cell phones operate in low L-Band, the start of microwave frequencies in the EM spectrum. A mere half century ago, GE and others would require at least a half rack cabinet of vacuum tube circuitry to house the same functions (but without the image camera), all in the same general frequency range. While technically (in the broadest sense of the term) a cell phone can be called a "two-way radio" there is no real comparison to identical technologic functioning, especially the RF portion. In automobile terms it would be like calling a modern Ford Mustang the "same" as a Ford Model T. There's a great gulf of technology between the two. Hi hi. :-)
I think we should all pay more attention to WHAT is being said or communicated, much less on the Strict Obediance to Proper Phrases, Protocol, Pronunciation.
Also the "firsts" in radio from the practical uses. Does it really separate the "newbies" from the "old pros" of ham radio? Or isn't that a mind-set thing among some "oldies?" :-) Just wondering...
73, Len AF6AY
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by K4JF on June 11, 2007
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"Depends on how you define "invented.""
I didn't say "invented". The first video signals were in 1923, but were analog, mechanical based and not practical for transmission. I believe the 1927 signal was on wires. The Federal Radio Commission issued the first television station license (W3XK) to Charles Jenkins in 1928. I have read earlier that the first on air transmission in the U.S. was by a ham station, in Chicago, I believe, in 1932. (Correction: it was 1930.)
Anyway, TV is almost as old as the other forms of radio. That was the entire point.
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by K4JF on June 11, 2007
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And still, as far as I know, the only on-air 2-way TV communications are on the ham bands. There may be rare others, but certainly not commercial and common.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KB9YGD on June 11, 2007
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Its simply ashamed just how laxed for lack of a better word...how many hams are in this area Steve!But of course this is true for most of the population in general on most subjects.Ah... the cbers, well it seems we are headed to the ham cb band as there isnt any requirements any more to obtain a ticket kinda makes me glad im old and will soon die!73 all ``The Real Ham``
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 11, 2007
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"Mention "wireless" today to anyone and - generally - the first thing to come to the civilian mind is the Thing that bites so many ears named after a legendary Scandinavian king named Harald."
No, mention "wireless" today and 99.9% of people think cell phone. That's the term the celery phone purveyors use. I even had one person tell me (on a car forum) that "wireless" meant "no wires, not even an antenna wire". He learned better.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 11, 2007
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"Our residence has no yardarm and the land in the back is simply the back yard. Do mariners have special terminology for trees or sidewalks or streets? :-) "
Of course not, Len. There are correct terms for parts of boats and ships that mariners use. They are for clarity and brevity. I've already explained why there is port and starboard on a boat or ship. As a sailor and son-of-a-sailor (Dad was USN WW II), I never use nautical terms for landlubber items. That would be just as incorrect as saying the "left" sude of my sailboat. Or imagining verbally that there was a "rope" aboard! :o)
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 11, 2007
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Well according to Yahoo and google they mentioned the person whom invented TV was in 1923 which was over 80 years ago. I do recall in Popular electronics or electronics illustrated that the BBC was transmitting TV back in the early 1930's.
But again the wireless use of the cellphone for us on the ship, has had its limits.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 12, 2007
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Actually there is a term for street lights and trees as in our case its called the Beach. And our Master <captain> is very picky on terms.
Our wireless in the term of cellphones is only as good if you have a connection but in my case when I sailed off Guam was limited to 15 to 20 miles at max distance. In my case just standing on the main deck as in most cases out here many of the shipmates were walking in circles trying to connect to the sites.
But again as mentioned you learn from others who are old timers at this and if not they just look at you with a sort of wonder.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by MW0KEV on June 13, 2007
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Speaking as a UK Ham I think Steve makes an excellent case.
Here in the UK we have "newbies" in the form of Foundation and Intermediate licensees. Many come from a CB background and find it difficult to refrain from using CB slang on the amateur bands.
I came from a CB background and I'm not ashamed to admit this. But I did a lot of shortwave listening before I got my ham license, and did the 12wpm morse test too.
UK "newbies" also congregate on the 2m repeaters and talk in the main to other "newbies" and so the bad habbits are maintained and propagated within their circle. When an unfamilier UK call appears on the frequency they go silent, they seemingly have nothing to say.
They are rearly heard on the 80m and 160m local nets which is a great shame. When they do call in and are corrected on their procedure they disappear from the net and are never heard again. Sadly they can then invariably be heard on 20, 15 and 10m operating with the same bad habits as you mention in your post.
Amature radio is a privilege we have earned. We do indeed represent ourselves as individuals and our country as a nation. It is important that we work together to maintain international operating standards so that the hobby will be seen as a positive pursuit capable of transcending race, culture and religion, and not a debarcle where semantic confusion reigns because we have failed to promote good operating practices in the form of plain language and correct procedure within our hobby.
Is that a big ten four good buddy!
Kev
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC9GUZ on June 13, 2007
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The generalised hatred and bitterness that a lot of older hams have towards CBers and no code ops makes me bristle. I have only been a ham for 2 years and i never have judged anyone about their abilities and past. Heck i was a CBer for 15 years and i heard the name calling from both sides and i thought it was idiotic and very childish. I once had an older ham tell me that when he was a young ham back in the early 1960s he was tought to hate 2 things; CB ops and Communists.. Now thats sad...
73
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 13, 2007
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The bitterness towards CB'ers I believe goes back along ways and its mostly <i believe> been because of the FCC decision I believe at the time of giving away the 11 meter band to the CB community. It once belong to Ham radio I believe back in the 50's or before and that might be part of that problem.
I still have my mixed feeling about the doing away with the code requirements but have no judgement directly towards the no-coder's. Just wish they would have kept it in place and at the 5 wpm. I found it wasnt that hard to pass at 5 wpm and was fun and worth the extra effort.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WB2WIK on June 14, 2007
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>RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten! Reply
by KC9GUZ on June 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
The generalised hatred and bitterness that a lot of older hams have towards CBers and no code ops makes me bristle. I have only been a ham for 2 years and i never have judged anyone about their abilities and past. Heck i was a CBer for 15 years and i heard the name calling from both sides and i thought it was idiotic and very childish. I once had an older ham tell me that when he was a young ham back in the early 1960s he was tought to hate 2 things; CB ops and Communists.. Now thats sad...<
::Ridiculous! No reason to hate Communists! Joe McCarthy was wrong.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 14, 2007
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I use to listen in on CB years ago but not recently as the only good part for me was checking out dx on my side of the world, if CB was open so was 10. But the last time I listen on 10 one of the repeaters some where else was being triggered but not sure where as it was not strong.
I never met any communists but in my line of work I was told that there was at one time 47 known KGB agents in the Bay area. But that was in the mid 70's.
The years in the past when CB went with all the CW McCall stuff was another reason as I recall why some hams hated CB back in the late 60's in my area and I met many then who didnt even wanna talk about it.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by KC9GUZ on June 14, 2007
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I had to take the CW test just like everyone else at 5 WPM and had no real problems. I dont understand what the big hubub was about the 5 WPM test being too hard. I wish the FCC would have retained the CW test, but whats done is done i guess.
Over the past few weeks that 10 has been opne ive had some GREAT QSOs with several hams and i believe only one of them was a Tech. I enjoy the other bands as well, but when 10 is open im there!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 14, 2007
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"No reason to hate Communists! "
You're kidding, right?
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 14, 2007
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Well I too wished it had stayed and very disappointed in the changes, I found it fun at both 5 and 13 and when I get home plan to do more operating.
Larry,n6hpx/mm
passing the equator
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WA2JJH on June 16, 2007
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Hmmmm, a good feature for new rigs. A seperate RX that would tell you 10M is wide open.
One could be on 20M, lets say. A scanning RX would check out 10M. An indicator would tell the Ham 10m is hot.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K4JF on June 17, 2007
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"Hmmmm, a good feature for new rigs. A seperate RX that would tell you 10M is wide open"
Actually, that is the only GOOD use for an old CB radio (other than converting to 10m, of course). 11 meters behaves like 10, and I have used the old Motorola to listen for 10m openings more than once.
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by K7DLB on June 17, 2007
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Actually, it is because of a "Newbie" in my area that I have discovered 10 meter.....
I have had many very nice QSO's with several new Techs both locally and when the band is open. I have also discovered a couple of seasoned ops here in the area that are dedicated 10m operators. They are a wealth of information and it is interesting to hear them coach the new tech's on HF. So now I find myself checking 10 each afternoon when I get up(I work nights) and sometimes don't even tune in 20m like I used to!!!!!!
Now,if I could just fill up a 1010 qualifier sheet!!!!!!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N6HPX on June 18, 2007
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In my side of the world 20 meters is open most of the time, but gets more intense at night around 10 utc. Thats when I can work the Eastern US but 10 meters is seldom active except for Contests here. 10 beacons out of australia,japan and HK are usually periodic at times.
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by AC0FA on June 19, 2007
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Steve,
As always great article. Which brings up some very good points. The one that sticks out in my mind is that the newbies ARE listening to how qso's are supposed to go.
We must all be more aware of OUR operating habits.
Even in casual rag chews with our long time friends.
Lead by example.
John
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Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by WA6BFH on June 19, 2007
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Yes indeed, even many older Ham's think that 10 Meters will only work during the peak of the 11 year sunspot cycle for F-layer skip alone! E-layer skip on both 10 and 6 Meters can be great fun even at the bottom of the 11 year cycle!
All Hams too should have a good "Radio Handbook" such as the one written by William I. Orr, it will answer all questions of radio signal propagation, and even operating techniques!
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RE: Newbies, Let's Hear You on Ten!
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by N3SSL on June 21, 2007
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There is a group of new hams in the williamsport Pa area using 28.365 usb and have a range extending 30-40 miles groundwave. I have to agree that you should listen before you talk and get a feel for what is going on.
Also on the other hand i have talked a few hams that don't understand how to get on frequency there display says they are on 28.xxx but don't understand that there radio can drift as noted in the ranger and some of the older radios out there.
The key here is listen before you talk. And you we become a great operator.
Ryan n3ssl
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