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ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brief over BPL:

from The ARRL Letter, Vol 26, No 31 on August 3, 2007
Website: http://www.arrl.org/
View comments about this article!

ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brief over BPL:

On July 31, the ARRL filed its reply brief at the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. This brief follows the FCC's brief that attempted to rebut the ARRL's challenge to the FCC's Broadband over Power Line (BPL) rules enacted in late 2004 and affirmed by the agency in 2006. According to ARRL General Counsel Chris Imlay, W3KD, "The FCC's brief does not accurately describe ARRL's arguments concerning harmful interference." The ARRL, in its reply brief, accuses the FCC of, "engaging in misdirection -- rebutting hyperbolic arguments ARRL never made, refusing to address the precedents ARRL cited and attempting to rewrite the Orders as if they made factual rather than legal determinations."

The League's reply brief, according to Imlay, "focuses largely on the FCC's unprecedented failure to protect mobile stations from interference if the BPL operator reduces its radiated emissions by 20 dB below the Part 15 maxima, even if harmful interference persists thereafter. The reply brief also addresses the inapplicability of the 40 dB per decade of distance extrapolation factor applied to BPL system measurements in the high frequency bands."

The ARRL's reply brief looked at four main points:
* The FCC's failure to reconcile the Orders with the FCC's decades-old interpretation of Section 301.
* The FCC's failure to justify its nondisclosures of portions of the studies on which the Orders were expressly based.
* The FCC's failure to justify its refusal to consider contrary evidence, as well as a proposed alternative to its extrapolation factor for measuring interference.
* The FCC's failure to justify its summary dismissal of an alternative that could have accommodated BPL without causing the same harmful interference.

The ARRL's brief states that this case "is about an unlicensed operator's legal duty to cease harmful interference once it arises, not the standard for authorizing unlicensed transmissions."

For decades, the FCC has interpreted Section 301 to mandate two restrictions on unlicensed operators: The proposed operations will not have a significant potential for causing harmful interference, and; if harmful interference does occur, the unlicensed operations are to cease immediately. For the first time ever, the FCC excluded mobile operators from the second part of the mandate.

The FCC suggests in its brief that BPL emissions (that are reduced by the 10 or 20 dB that are the minimum notching requirements in the rules) will "never cause harmful interference to licensed mobile users, but there is no evidence to support this," the ARRL's brief states. The ARRL contends the FCC's brief "ignore[s] the express acknowledgement in the Reconsideration Order that 'harmful interference...may occur' even when BPL systems meet the FCC's technical standards and that when it occurs 'we will not provide further protection to mobile operations.'"

The FCC goes on to say, according to the ARRL's brief, that licensed mobile users "do not need the protection of the cease-operations rule because mobile users suffering from interference can move elsewhere." The ARRL contends that the FCC "has never before put the burden on the license-holder to move away from an unlicensed interferor, to the contrary, its rules require the interferor to cease interfering immediately. A BPL system deploys radiation-emitting devices ubiquitously throughout a service area, making it difficult to avoid harmful interference and impossible to conclude that harmful interference will 'never' occur."

The ARRL's brief states that "the FCC cites nothing to defend the Reconsideration Order's ruling that Section 301 is inapplicable to 'unintentional radiators.'" The ARRL's brief points out that the FCC's brief "fails to defend the Reconsideration Order's holding that unintentional radiators like BPL devices 'as such' are outside the scope of Section 301's license requirement. The brief actually admits the contrary -- that unintentional radiators are within Section 301." The FCC's brief mentions "but fails to acknowledge Section 302, which extended the FCC's authority to cover the manufacture and sale of interfering devices, is irrelevant to the scope of Section 301."

In its brief, the FCC failed to justify its "nondisclosure of significant portions of the technical studies on which the Orders rely." Instead, the ARRL said the FCC "attacks a straw man, suggesting that ARRL is after 'every internal document in its entirety that the agency's staff prepares in relating to a rule making proceeding."

The ARRL's brief states that the League only sought the full texts of the studies that the FCC "identified and cited as the basis for its conclusions. An agency may not cherry-pick the pages of the studies on which it relies, disclosing the ones that support its conclusions and redacting the others."

The FCC's brief requests that the Court defer to its "technical judgment in adopting an extrapolation factor to measure interference." The ARRL contends that the FCC "is not entitled to deference where it refuses to consider substantial evidence submitted to it -- in this instance, at the agency's invitation -- and fails to consider a responsible alternative proposal."

The ARRL points out three studies conducted by OFCOM, the UK-equivalent to the FCC. Each study reached a conclusion opposite that of the FCC and "plainly were significant to warrant consideration," the League's brief said. "ARRL's proposed sliding-scale extrapolation factor was an alternative entitled to consideration and a reasoned explanation for its rejection."

The ARRL makes the argument in its brief that it proposed a "win-win" solution: Authorize BPL, but "confine it to a generous frequency band that does not present these interference problems." It makes note of the fact that the largest BPL operator has designed its systems this way, and suggests that other operators could follow suit.

Yet the FCC in its brief brushed off these suggestions with a terse, two word sentence: "The other proposed 'solution' -- complete avoidance of all HF frequencies -- would needlessly restrict BPL design and reduce system capacity, without regard to whether there are amateurs that need protection from a particular BPL installation. This would result in a grossly inefficient utilization of Access BPL capacity, reducing the potential benefits of BPL and increasing its costs to the public, without a corresponding benefit or need."

ARRL, therefore, asked the Court in its brief "to enforce the FCC's 'duty to consider responsible alternatives to its chosen policy and to give a reasoned explanation for its rejection of such alternatives.'"

Pointing out the "multiple legal errors in the Orders," the ARRL stated in the brief that the FCC "require[d] a remand. When the Court remands the Orders, it should direct the FCC to give this alternative the careful consideration required by law."

The ARRL's reply brief can be read in its entirety on the ARRL Web site http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/Court_Appeal_ReplyBrief2007july31.pdf.

Source:

The ARRL Letter Vol. 26, No. 31 August 3, 2007

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brief ov  
by W6EM on August 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
An excellent rebuttal!! Congratulations to the staff and the League's Counsel.

Perhaps someone could identify links to any submittals from the pro-BPL crowd for our reading entertainment.

73,

Lee
W6EM
 
Calling all ARRL bashers  
by AI2IA on August 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Here are the main points that you ARRL bashers need to address to justify yourselves, gratify your egos, and pamper yourselves with the thought that eHam.net readers are soaking up your wisdom:
The ARRL's reply brief looked at four main points:
* The FCC's failure to reconcile the Orders with the FCC's decades-old interpretation of Section 301.
* The FCC's failure to justify its nondisclosures of portions of the studies on which the Orders were expressly based.
* The FCC's failure to justify its refusal to consider contrary evidence, as well as a proposed alternative to its extrapolation factor for measuring interference.
* The FCC's failure to justify its summary dismissal of an alternative that could have accommodated BPL without causing the same harmful interference.
We await your pseudo-intelligent responses with some degree of anxiety? Yes? No, not really.
 
RE: ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brie  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 3, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>An excellent rebuttal!! Congratulations to the staff and the League's Counsel.

An excellent rebuttal indeed. Even if bpl is nearly dead, the League is doing the right thing with this. What the FCC has done with bpl and the precedence they are setting threatens all licensed services and the future of this country's communications infrastructure (and I'm not talking about amateur radio or just services that are affected by bpl). Whether ARRL is successful remains to be seen, but no one can argue that they didn't do what was right and in the spirit of the morals and values in which this country was founded.
 
RE: ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brie  
by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Amen. The threat to all licensed services from the likes of RFID is significant. Why? Because its being touted as a means to even identify people. Taking that further, imagine RFID sensors in every home instead of keys for the locks. An implanted chip responds and opens the garage door and the front door lock.

Or, at the checkstand. We already are seeing them at Exxon gas pumps via cards waved past the sensor.

Spreading unlicensed RFID sources willy-nilly will compromise licensed uses. No question about it.

The unlawful, corporatist-leaning behavior of the Commission, as exemplified by its BPL cheerleading, must be corrected.

73,

Lee
W6EM
 
RE: Calling all ARRL bashers  
by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
AI2IA said: "We await your pseudo-intelligent responses with some degree of anxiety? Yes? No, not really."

Ray, the least you could do is email W1YW to let him know about this.

 
RE: ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brie  
by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
One thing I would like to know with respect to the Brief is whether ARRL has asked the Court to order disclosure of the test results referred to as only partially released. Apparently, not in the Brief, but rules of disclosure and evidence would give them that authority at this point, I do believe.

The earlier partial release, apparently using the Freedom of Information Act to demand same, was very typical of Federal agency response to a FOIA request. They're at liberty to redact what they want to without much scrutiny.

So, if ARRL hasn't yet, why haven't they? Using the redacted example would have more weight if they had again, under the Court's authority, asked for them and the FCC redacted the same things.

73,

Lee
W6EM
 
Where's the beef?  
by NN4RH on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Nothing new here. Just more variations of the same strange mix of chest-thumping and bush-beating, without actually clarifying anything.
 
RE: Calling all ARRL bashers  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"Here are the main points that you ARRL bashers need to address to justify yourselves, gratify your egos, and pamper yourselves with the thought that eHam.net readers are soaking up your wisdom"

Something the bashers just don't get is that:

1) Regardless of the threat of bpl, perceived, real, or exaggerated, what the FCC has done has a detrimental impact far outside of amateur radio or even all of hf.

2) The FCC has acted in an inconsistent and unfair manner that is not within the interests of the general public.

These two facts many cannot grasp. It amazes me that some people are content with allowing a government agency to do wrong just because of their hate for ARRL.
 
RE: Where's the beef? Ask Wendy  
by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
NN4RH says: "Nothing new here. Just more variations of the same ........bush-beating.....

Strange, Ron. No one's mentioned Dumbyah yet. Although his BPL cheerleading is probably the reason for the FCC's irrational actions with respect to an unlicensed radiator.

 
RE: Where's the beef?  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>Nothing new here. Just more variations of the same strange mix of chest-thumping and bush-beating, without actually clarifying anything.

Read the article and brief again (or for the first time). What is left to clarify? The FCC made several straw man attacks, failed to justify its redaction of documents, and hasn't defended its new language in Part 15 which is in direct conflict with Section 301.

On page 17 they make an excellent point about the new Part 15 language and what impact it would have if applied to mobile phone services.

ARRL in several places even illustrates how the FCC's own reply language and various citations support ARRL's position. This is probably the best ARRL filing to date.

The brief is 35 pages long. It outlines quite completely why the FCC is wrong. Anyone who reads this brief and can't understand that can't comprehend the English langauge, or just choses to ignore the facts.
 
RE: Where's the beef?  
by WA1RNE on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!

The ARRL is hinging their argument solely upon THEIR interpretation of the Communications Act - and failing to recognize or admit that sections 301 and 302 are essentially "joined at the hip", giving the FCC considerable latitude in it's ruling.


As I stated in a previous post about 4 weeks ago, these are, IMO the reasons this appeal will not be successful:


" .....or (f) upon any other mobile stations within the jurisdiction of the United States, *** except under and in accordance with this Act and with a license in that behalf granted under the provisions of this Act.


>>> Notice the last sentence: "except under and in accordance with this Act and with a license in that behalf granted under the provisions of this Act."

>>> This last sentence, along with Section 302a probably make the ARRL's argument a tough one to win:

SEC. 302. [47 U.S.C. 302] DEVICES WHICH INTERFERE WITH RADIO RECEPTION.

(a) The Commission may, consistent with the public interest, convenience, and necessity, make reasonable regulations (1) governing the interference potential of devices which in their operation are capable of emitting radio frequency energy by radiation, conduction, or other means in sufficient degree to cause harmful interference to radio communications;


>>> These words are key: "consistent with the public interest, convenience, and necessity".........

In our case, and IMO, this could very well be interpreted to mean "what's more important, protection of amateur mobile operation or providing billions of dollars worth of broadband service to citizens in rural areas or where other services don't have coverage.



>>>> W6EM said: "Strange, Ron. No one's mentioned Dumbyah yet. Although his BPL cheerleading is probably the reason for the FCC's irrational actions with respect to an unlicensed radiator."


Cigar time: The Bush administration is very definitely the underlying key to the push for BPL expansion - once again, "consistent with the public interest, convenience, and necessity". They are on a mission to extend broadband access to areas that don't have cable or fiber services and if it means inconveniencing a few hundred amateur radio operators, then so be it.

I'm not a cheer leader for the Bush administration, heck I've been a ham for 34 years and appreciate the spectrum privileges we have. But it just blows my mind that very few hams are unwilling to accept the reality that we are complacent about the spectrum we occupy
and simply think that we have "squatter's rights" forever - meanwhile technology has in some ways gone against us and reduced the demand for our services.

Someone like Dubya comes along, slaps on the blinders and says, "get it done, make it happen, my legacy needs all the miracles I can muster". How do you expect to win?


....WA1RNE
 
ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brief ov  
by W5HLH on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I've never understood the hysteria over BPL, mainly because it is a technology that's doomed to fail.

There are very few places in the United States where broadband service of some sort---whether cable, DSL, satellite, WiFi "clouds," EVDO, etc.---isn't already available. I now live in the sticks and have satellite broadband through WildBlue, and like it better than the DSL I had in the city. There is also a local company that has created an area WiFi cloud using cell phone towers, and that was another option I looked into. You can even get wireless broadband service in your car (see http://www.autonetmobile.com/wp/service for details) in most of the country. Add to that emerging technologies like 802.16e mobile WiMax and 802.22 wireless regional area networks, and it's clear there will be no shortage of broadband choices, even in rural areas, by the time BPL is ready for deployment.

It's also funny how BPL tests have mainly been conducted in suburban areas (like Briarcliff Manor, NY, or Manassas, VA) which already have broadband options available. That's because I think the "BPL will serve rural America" argument is a red herring; there just aren't enough people in truly rural areas to justify the investment for BPL. I think urban and suburban areas have always been the main targets for BPL. . . . but who will be interested if they already have broadband service, especially if it's wireless?

I can't figure out the thinking behind BPL. The cynic in me says it's just a ruse to spike the stock prices of power companies ("Look, we're getting into high tech!"). But it may also be that power company executives are accustomed to operating in a regulated, slow moving environment where you can tell customers "take it or leave it," and they genuinely don't understand how late they're getting into the game and how strong and entrenched their competition is. Power companies backing BPL don't realize the train has already left the station and they're not on board.

I strongly suspect you'll eventually see BPL modems on the shelf between the quadraphonic stereo systems and the RCA "PictureDisc" players in the Museum of Technological Failures!
 
RE: ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brie  
by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"I can't figure out the thinking behind BPL. ....... But it may also be that power company executives are accustomed to operating in a regulated, slow moving environment where you can tell customers "take it or leave it," and they genuinely don't understand how late they're getting into the game and how strong and entrenched their competition is.

Power companies backing BPL don't realize the train has already left the station and they're not on board."

Power companies wanted to get their PUCs to have their customers foot the bill for BPL so that they can have a cheaper way (keep in mind, no cost to them if the customer pays) to read meters and do turn on/turn off at the meter box.

They used cr*p like "we need better control of our system to help restore service" in front of the FCC and others. They've already got fiber optic and point to point radio modems to key switching points on their systems to restore power quickly through reconfiguration.

As far as rural vs. suburban, you got that right. Rural facilities don't produce as much power revenue per mile as do cities and residential/industral areas.
That's why the USDA formed the REAs eons ago as the investor owned utilities wouldn't invest the capital to extend their systems across rural America.

Times haven't changed in rural America, except that Presidents now land helos and make outlandish promises that they can't keep to country folks. Faulty promises aren't new, just the helo barnstorming.

As you've said, there are technologies such as satellite and WiMax that will make it affordable since the coverage areas are large for a single point investment. Not so with wires and modems galore.....



 
RE: ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brie  
by WA1RNE on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"It's also funny how BPL tests have mainly been conducted in suburban areas (like Briarcliff Manor, NY, or Manassas, VA) which already have broadband options available."


>>> Think about that for a moment. In order to measure performance against other proven methods, does it make sense to test and compare it with existing infrastructure and over progressively longer distances before deploying to a remote area??

I would think this would be the motivation before a large scale deployment.


....WA1RNE
 
RE: Where's the beef? Ask Wendy  
by NN4RH on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: Where's the beef? Ask Wendy Reply
>by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>
>NN4RH says: "Nothing new here. Just more variations of the >same ........bush-beating.....
>
>Strange, Ron. No one's mentioned Dumbyah yet. Although his BPL >cheerleading is probably the reason for the FCC's irrational actions with >respect to an unlicensed radiator.

Lee, sometimes I can't tell whether you're being coy, or dense.

In case it's the latter - that was "bush-beating" as in "beating around the bush" ... not "Bush bashing".
 
RE: Where's the beef? Ask Wendy  
by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Well, Ron, just couldn't pass up the opportunity, even if it was a play on words.

As for the rest, well, I do believe Wendy's stresses their beef content....... as opposed to partial vegetable constituency at Macky D's.

Your buddy must be dozing. I'm amazed he hasn't dropped in yet.
 
RE: ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brie  
by W5HLH on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"Power companies wanted to get their PUCs to have their customers foot the bill for BPL so that they can have a cheaper way (keep in mind, no cost to them if the customer pays) to read meters and do turn on/turn off at the meter box."

Very good point and thanks for reminding me about it; that's probably the biggest reason power companies back BPL.


"Think about that for a moment. In order to measure performance against other proven methods, does it make sense to test and compare it with existing infrastructure and over progressively longer distances before deploying to a remote area??"

Yes, but when will such rural tests be conducted? It's not like this technology is only a couple of years old. . . .
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6EM on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
WA1RNE says:"In order to measure performance against other proven methods, does it make sense to test and compare it with existing infrastructure and over progressively longer distances before deploying to a remote area??

I would think this would be the motivation before a large scale deployment."

If this were in the cards, don't you think by now that the "showplace" City of Manassass system would have been held up as a superior performer to DSL and Cable approaches? Funny, that didn't happen and it won't because it isn't.

Cheney or Bush probably have some money in their "blind trusts" (blind to us, not to them) invested in a successful BPL rollout. Michael Powell sure was cheerleading really loudly and Kevin Martin took up the cause after he left.

BPL sucks just about as much as a thirsty elephant.
A white elephant at that.



 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by WA1RNE on August 4, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
If this were in the cards, don't you think by now that the "showplace" City of Manassass system would have been held up as a superior performer to DSL and Cable approaches? Funny, that didn't happen and it won't because it isn't


>>> Depends.....as the saying goes, the Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease - and if it means a couple extra percentage points on the polls, Dubya will be handing out the grease by the bucket full - even if it fails long term. By that time he'll be off writing his memoirs and designing his library.


Personally, I don't believe BPL is superior to any of the alternatives. I'd much rather see an expanded Fiber-WiMax solution than this Kluge over Power Lines any day of the week.


....WA1RNE
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by K4RAF on August 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
I am still so dismayed that even after 5 years, no support from the ham related "wireless community" has risen to the level of effectively eclipsing the hysteria over the boogyman AKA BPL.

There is plenty of conjecture, accusations & pure hyperbole BUT:

WHY has "wireless" in all its' forms, not been offered by anyone as a SOLUTION...???

Plenty of finger pointing, many up their own noses, just picking around but absolutely NO SOLUTIONS offered by "amateurs"!!!

The hobby has changed for good in my mind. We are no longer tinkering for solutions but rather bitching for "bans"...

A sad day when opportunists have more to say than educated, thinking folks...

K4RAF
wifidx@gmail.com


 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by KE4MOB on August 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"WHY has "wireless" in all its' forms, not been offered by anyone as a SOLUTION...???

Plenty of finger pointing, many up their own noses, just picking around but absolutely NO SOLUTIONS offered by "amateurs"!!! "

>>>I think if you'll read some of the responses above, you'll find the reason. Ham radio by and large is stuck in about 1950.

We love our HF...where is everyone else by the way??? Oh, they moved to satellite a decade ago.

Conspiracies abound. The commie BPL companies are everywhere.

New technology such as RFID bad, bad, bad. New uses of existing spectrum bad, bad, bad.

And last but not least, let's put all our faith in the great organization that walks to the drumbeat of the amateur army, the ARRL.

See, it is 1950 all over again.

I just wonder if the ARRL's efforts are turned away by the courts, how are they going to spin it? Will the officers be held responsible? What will be the plan then?

And the bigger question: what's the next technology to be targeted by us...the obstructionists we have become...
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by NN4RH on August 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>> And the bigger question: what's the next technology to be targeted by us...the obstructionists we have become... <<

Hybrid/electric cars of course. Big RFI sources.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>WHY has "wireless" in all its' forms, not been offered by anyone as a SOLUTION...???

>Plenty of finger pointing, many up their own noses, just picking around but absolutely NO SOLUTIONS offered by "amateurs"!!!

Why don't you offer the solution? You're in the wireless business and actually can profit from it. Amateurs giving their own time to find a solution would just be lining the pockets of others, the ones who came up with the stupid idea of bpl in the first place. You talk about solutions all the time but only offer up complaints, but you're not any better than the amateurs you whine about....you're actually in a position to do something.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by K1CJS on August 7, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
No solutions offered by amateurs? I suppose you say the ARRL staff are not representing amateurs? I think you better look again.

The ARRL has offered solutions to the BPL debacle--as was stated, it had "an alternative that could have accommodated BPL without causing the same harmful interference" but the alternative was summarily dismissed.


 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by K4RAF on August 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"And the bigger question: what's the next technology to be targeted by us..."

Well no one even realized when DHS forced RFID right in the middle of 70cm. Never got a chance to "bitch it up"

Let's just say that "refarming" will take amateur radio by storm... Our 3GHz allocation will be next, which would have been a prime band for exclusive amateur wireless connectivity. Now that the FCC has all but released 3.65-3.7GHz to quasi-licensed service, our 3.3-3.5GHz allocation is in peril. No one uses it but I am going to be using it very soon. I am looking at my "boxes" right now :)

"the obstructionists we have become..."

Amen brother but count me as one of them. I have tried to foster interest but have met with complacency from the amateur community [as clearly illustrated by CrookedFork, the coward]. I do use the shared bands to build interest in wireless, wi-fi or antenna principles BUT the people who are really interested, are simply not interested in becoming licensed. I can no longer justify the "push" to others on getting a license when you can actually have more freedom (content) without one. Sad, very sad but it is true...

K4RAF
wifidx@gmail.com
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 8, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>I have tried to foster interest but have met with complacency from the amateur community [as clearly illustrated by CrookedFork, the coward]. I do use the shared bands to build interest in wireless, wi-fi or antenna principles BUT the people who are really interested, are simply not interested in becoming licensed. I can no longer justify the "push" to others on getting a license when you can actually have more freedom (content) without one. Sad, very sad but it is true...

This makes no sense. You should be talking to the people doing bpl, not amateurs. Amateurs are doing wireless, just not your wifi wireless. Who really cares if hams are doing wifi? The utilities need to be doing wireless, not bpl. This has nothing to do with wifi in ham radio or licensing hams. You're way out in left field as usual, with a totally wrong focus, name calling, and hypocritically complaining.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by KE4MOB on August 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"The utilities need to be doing wireless, not bpl."

Why would they? Utilities have miles and miles of EXISTING powerline to utilize. That's one of the great selling points of BPL...it uses EXISTING infrastructure...one that accesses all customers. In the business world, it's called "maximizing your return on investment" and "synergy".

If utilities went to wireless, it would be like an airline buying a railroad.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>We love our HF...where is everyone else by the way??? Oh, they moved to satellite a decade ago.

What's your point? You own HF rigs, so you should know the value HF provides over satellite in various instances.

>I just wonder if the ARRL's efforts are turned away by the courts, how are they going to spin it? Will the officers be held responsible?

Even those who are in favor of the ARRL's efforts, myself included, admit that it's very likely the lawsuit will fail. The deck is stacked against ARRL because this is largely a legal argument, not a technical one.

How do you intend to hold the officers responsible? In the real world, efforts and initiatives often fail. I think they've made a valiant effort. They've hired a respectable legal firm and their filings have been spot on. Sumner occasionally says the wrong thing in an editorial once in awhile, but basically they've done a good job.

>What will be the plan then?

Does there really need to be another plan? ARRL should continue to report non-compliant systems and let the broadband market continue killing bpl. That's the plan I think.

>And last but not least, let's put all our faith in the great organization that walks to the drumbeat of the amateur army, the ARRL.

Please tell me what other organization does as much for amateur radio as ARRL, and I'll get behind them.

>And the bigger question: what's the next technology to be targeted by us...the obstructionists we have become...

It's a sad day when ham radio operators and American citizens can't do what's right. Anyone who cares to read and understand the issues knows that the FCC has done wrong. But to some we should just bend over and let the FCC and private interests do what they want even if it makes no technical or economic sense. But it's the direction this country is heading - sit down, shut up, and let leaders with their heads up their arses do the thinking for us while benefiting their interests, and if you don't support the leadership and whatever misguided things they do for "our own good", you're labelled an obstructionist or hit with "if you're not with us you're against us" attitudes. We need to make intelligent technology decisions, not automatically accept any piece of garbage tech just because its proponents claim it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. A group that applies critical thinking and basic technical standards and tests on technology are only obstructionists in the eyes of those with an agenda.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6EM on August 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
KE4MOB says:"Why would they? (Go wireless) Utilities have miles and miles of EXISTING powerline to utilize. That's one of the great selling points of BPL...it uses EXISTING infrastructure...one that accesses all customers. In the business world, it's called "maximizing your return on investment" and "synergy".

If utilities went to wireless, it would be like an airline buying a railroad"

You've read too many issues of Fortune magazine. What you need instead is to have read texts on transmission line theory and to have developed an understanding of Maxwell's equations, the skin effect, etc.

On top of that, power utlities are today mostly headed by accountants and lawyers who think 'maximize ROI' but have not one iota of scientific or engineering sense. And, buy-off a slick sales pitch.

Many here and elsewhere have already explained why trying to use a power system's distribution lines to transmit HF signals is a very poor concept from many aspects including even impeding the utility's ability to maintain, control and operate its system in times of crisis.

High-powered wireless offers the least investment cost and offers the greatest flexibility in terms of its intended customer base. Whether that audience is a sea of fixed PCs or laptops free to roam wherever. In addition to that, fiber optic telecomm infrastructure is already virtually at the curb, even in many rural locations. Why waste time with bandaids that create headaches for the utilities themselves and are slow when compared to the throughput of WiMax or fibre optic alternatives. And, of course, there are multiple satellite providers out there as well.

ROI is a good thing to keep in mind. Increasing maintenance and operation costs on a utility system because some widget boxes have been added that will themselves cause power outages when they fail and possibly interfere with voltage control and overcurrent protective devices on distribution systems won't increase ROI. Increased M&O will reduce ROI.

However, utility structures can be used to place WiFi cells. How so? Transmission line towers of significant elevation offer a way for electric utilities to increase ROI through leaseing tower space above transmission conductors. Its already being done with cell phone arrays and could be done similarly for WiMax antennas. Actually, even wood pole distribution lines or street light poles in underground areas could be used as well, if a vertical antenna structure could be added to the top of the pole that would not interfere with line maintenance and operation. Ah, more opportunities to collect rent and raise ROI.

73,

Lee
W6EM/4
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>Why would they? Utilities have miles and miles of EXISTING powerline to utilize. That's one of the great selling points of BPL...it uses EXISTING infrastructure...one that accesses all customers. In the business world, it's called "maximizing your return on investment" and "synergy".

Using existing infrastructure is a great idea, but you have to use it in the correct manner. What good is this reuse if it ruins wireless communications and in the long run is the wrong solution?

>If utilities went to wireless, it would be like an airline buying a railroad.

Two of the existing bpl systems are using wireless as part of the system already and powers cos have been using wireless for control and monitoring purposes for years, so it's not some stupid idea that they would use wireless. If you want to talk about airlines buying a railroad, look at Directv's interest in bpl.

K4RAF is the wireless over bpl cheerleader, not me. My point was his misguided efforts when I mentioned "utilities should be doing wireless" which you quoted above. He shouldn't be complaining about hams not using wifi, he should be talking with utilities about doing wireless if he feels so strongly about it. Instead, every bpl article here he gets his pom poms in a bunch and whines about how hams are a bunch of idiots for not doing wifi.

I think the power companies should be doing fiber (some are doing fiber backbones). Power utilities could be doing FIOS-like installations right now if they wanted to. Bpl is a joke when it comes to capacity and growth. Verizon is loving this bpl thing because it's pulled power companies away from what they should be doing. It's fooled the FCC and apparently several bpl apologists we regularly hear from here.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6RJC on August 9, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
The Chipster and/or Jonathan don't weigh in and an intelligent discussion breaks out. Luv it. Hope everyone has a great weekend.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6EM on August 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Straightman said:"look at Directv's interest in bpl."

Ah ha! Now that could explain why Dumbyah's been pushing BPL. His bud Rupert Murdoch has an investment in it.

Although its probably "shotgun" afterall, and his energy industry secret clique.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by KE4MOB on August 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
In the end, the only thing limiting human endeavors are the constraints we place on ourselves.

If the society at large decides that BPL is more important than HF communications below 30 Mhz, then BPL immediately becomes more attractive, regardless of what the scientists and engineers say. S9+10 db of interference is unacceptable to the average ham...however, the other hundreds of people getting that internet feed in the same community could really care less.

That is what we are up against. The FCC has pretty much decided that the needs of the many really do outweigh the needs of the few....all it takes is to accept a little different perspective than what has been the "standard practice."
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"Ah ha! Now that could explain why Dumbyah's been pushing BPL. His bud Rupert Murdoch has an investment in it."

Funny observation, though I think Dubya just parroted whatever his advisers from the FCC told him, and after all it involves energy companies so it must be good.

When most everyone is abandoning bpl, Directtv expressed an interest but I don't think they actually did anything yet. I can't figure out why they're interested other than they figured out satellite technology sucks for internet access and discovered bpl sucks just slightly less. Or perhaps they're looking at an IPTV play? If so, they're in for a big disappointment and not due to interference issues.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6EM on August 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Would love to see the octogenerian sensationalist extraordinaire embarassed. Of course, his chilling affect on his journalist employees re anything anti-China is well known.

I do believe that ownership of both the NY Post and the WS Journal may raise some hackles over excessive print media control in NY.

Then again, I can't wait to read my first issue of the F*xed-up "No Spin Journal."



 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 10, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>In the end, the only thing limiting human endeavors are the constraints we place on ourselves.

Those words may look good on a Successories poster, but in the end physics and economics are often the constraints that take precedence.

>If the society at large decides that BPL is more important than HF communications below 30 Mhz, then BPL immediately becomes more attractive, regardless of what the scientists and engineers say. S9+10 db of interference is unacceptable to the average ham...however, the other hundreds of people getting that internet feed in the same community could really care less.

And that somehow makes it right or should discourage anyone from doing what's right?

>That is what we are up against. The fcc has pretty much decided that the needs of the many really do outweigh the needs of the few....all it takes is to accept a little different perspective than what has been the "standard practice."

It depends what one defines as "the few". The fcc and bpl companies want to define it as ham radio operators. If you look at all the other users of hf and if you consider this administration's homeland security needs, the real value of hf is much more than hams and the definition of "the few" is actually every United States citizen. While the fcc may not get it, we do and we have an obligation to do the right thing.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W9WHE-II on August 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
K1CJS writes:

"The ARRL has offered solutions to the BPL debacle--as was stated, it had "an alternative that could have accommodated BPL without causing the same harmful interference".

arrl's initial approach was to try to kill BPL.
Only AFTER it was clear that arrl could not kill BPL, did arrl become interested in BPL "standards". But by then, arrl's shrill rhetoric exposed it as unreliable and unprofessional. arrl simply lacks the potency to make a significant difference. See for yourself at:



http://www.eham.net/survey/720


Part of the reason is arrl management's penchant for making unprofessional comments, such as personally insulting FCC commissioners. Part is due to its "sky is falling" rhetoric concerning BPL. Still another part is the fact that it can't seem to muster more then 20 some percent of licensed hams as members.


W9WHE
Proud to have CANCELLED my arrl membership!
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Looks like our reprieve from ARRL bashing is over. Back to fighting trolling, half truths, wrong statistics, revisionist history, unfounded accusations, and unprovable claims....
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6EM on August 13, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Well, at least its just one and not both of them. :-(
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W9WHE-II on August 14, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"Back to fighting trolling, half truths, wrong statistics, revisionist history, unfounded accusations, and unprovable claims...."


Unfortunately, that is what we get from some posters that hide their identity.
On the other hand, those of us that reveal ourselves, use FACTS, verifiable statistics and the truth. Pity more posters don't do the same.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6EM on August 14, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Isn't it refreshing to know that we don't get any inyaendo from Jonathan? Just the hole trOOth and nutin but the trOOth.....

Lee
W6EM/4
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W9WHE-II on August 14, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Well, Lee, given the number of times you have made incorrect assumptions and posted them...I'm certainly glad you recognize the importance of facts!
 
ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brief ov  
by WA7SCH on August 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Sometimes you have to fight just to prove you can.

Even if we lose this battle over BPL we have at least said to the FCC and other agencies that are interested in things that we have enough fortitude to stand up and make our point.

Why do we as Amateur Radio Operators assume that we don't need a lobbying force behind our "cause"?

Almost every hobby has an association run by people that are either paid or by volunteers that are elected by the membership.

Having spent the last 30 years listening to ham radio operators bash the ARRL and bash everybody in this hobby that isn't like them, I'm still asking myself -

"If it is so bad, why are you still in it?"

Let's get behind the ARRL, after reading these posts at least there would be a single voice that represents us. I can imagine a group of hams getting together without some sort of organization to "protect our hobby". Boy can I imagine it, it looks something like a nightmare.

 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>On the other hand, those of us that reveal ourselves, use FACTS, verifiable statistics and the truth. Pity more posters don't do the same.

Yes, I wish you did use some facts and used statistics correctly. The thing to understand about the ARRL isn't that they are able to muster ONLY 20% of amateurs as members, it's that they are the ONLY ORGANIZATION worth talking about that has mustered 20% of amateurs as members. Considering how many licensees are dead, inactive, cheap, or indifferent, 20% is quite an accomplishment. But, you continue to misuse this statistic to support your bashing of ARRL.

It's getting old; we all know how you feel about ARRL. Essentially everything is ARRL's fault. As someone else mentioned, a discussion actually broke out during your absence.

As you would say, we now have a consensus....when it comes to ARRL bashing, WHO CARES!??!
 
RE: ARRL Files Federal Court of Appeals Reply Brie  
by W9WHE-II on August 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
WA7SCH writes:

"Having spent the last 30 years listening to ham radio operators bash the ARRL...... I'm still asking myself - "If it is so bad, why are you still in it?"

Valid point.
After MORE then 30 years in radio, I put my money where my mouth is. I CANCELLED my arrl membership and I encourage others to do the same.

W9WHE
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W9WHE-II on August 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Some poster writes:

"Yes, I wish you did use some facts....Considering how many licensees are dead, inactive, cheap, or indifferent, 20% is quite an accomplishment. But, you continue to misuse this statistic to support your bashing of ARRL".


SHEER NONSENSE.
I LIKE FACTS. Let's hear some FACTS from you:
HOW MANY licensees do you claim are dead?
HOW MANY licensees do you claim are inactive?
HOW MANY licensees do you claim are cheap?
HOW MANY licensees do you claim are indifferent?

YOU have no RELIABLE stats. YOU have no verifiable or reliable ststistics. Just blind support for blind arrl arrogance. I, on the other hand, cite the almighty arrl's OWN stats to illustrate my points.

FACT, arrl can't muster more then 20 some percent of licensed US hams as members. The reasons are OBVIOUS to 70 some percent. As Enviornmental Al Gore says:

"We now have a consensus, the issue is no longer debateable" If you deny the facts, you are just an arrl arrogance denier!
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by W6RJC on August 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Um, 20 and 70 equals 90.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>I LIKE FACTS. Let's hear some FACTS from you:
>HOW MANY licensees do you claim are dead?
>HOW MANY licensees do you claim are inactive?
>HOW MANY licensees do you claim are cheap?
>HOW MANY licensees do you claim are indifferent?

The burden of proof is on you as you have claimed again and again that the 80% have made a CONSCIOUS decision not to join ARRL. Lack of membership is something that occurs by default and not necessarily through an active, conscious decision. An analogy would be you asking me to prove that people who don't have Dodge trucks didn't make a conscious effort not to get one. Much like having a ham ticket doesn't mean someone is active, being a human doesn't mean you will by default have the opportunity to make a decision or will want to get a Dodge truck.

Regardless, empirical evidence would lead any reasonable person to believe there are a large number of inactive hams. Browsing randomly selected callsigns in qrz.com will show you a large number of unconfigured profiles and low hit count profiles indicating likely inactive hams. Of all the hams I've met in professional circles in the last decade, at least 50% have been inactive.

Also, your claim of a lack of support of ARRL fails the straight face test when you consider that there's no dues-charging ham radio organization that I know of that can claim 20% US ham membership.

I imagine if there would have been more ham exam questions on logic circuits, you probably would have had difficulty getting your ticket. For once I'm actually believing your "dumbing dumb" claims. Congratulations on winning me over on at least one point you've made.
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 15, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
That should have read "dumbing down".
 
RE: ARRL Files Reply and Diminishes FCC's Response  
by KC9JUB on August 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Actually, "dumbing dumb" read just fine. I ain't no oxymoron! :-)

Bob - KC9JUB

Straghtkey:

<<That should have read "dumbing down".>>
 
RE: 70 some percent of hams refuse to join arrl  
by W9WHE-II on August 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
"The burden of proof is on you as you have claimed.....that the 80% have made a CONSCIOUS decision not to join ARRL"

FACTS are stubborn things.
The FACT is about EVERY licensed US ham gets a letter directly from arrl asking him/her to join. Heck, arrl even offers freebies to join! HOWEVER, the FACT is that 70 some percent DECLINE arrl's offer and arrl's freebie. That's a CONSCIOUS decision.

TIME TO GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT. 70 some percent of licensed US hams REFUSE to join arrl.

THOSE ARE THE FACTS.
 
RE: 70 some percent of hams refuse to join arrl  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>TIME TO GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT. 70 some percent of licensed US hams REFUSE to join arrl.

>THOSE ARE THE FACTS.

You can't even get the math straight. You've said 20% of hams are members. 100 - 20 = 80%

It's gotten so bad that I need to help you out with your own arguments.

Perhaps you should spend that $40 you saved by cancelling your ARRL membership to buy a calculator.
 
RE: 70 some percent of hams refuse to join arrl  
by W9WHE-II on August 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Read up. You have your facts WRONG - AGAIN!
 
RE: 70 some percent of hams refuse to join arrl  
by STRAIGHTKEY on August 16, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
>Read up. You have your facts WRONG - AGAIN!

So, 100 minus 80 doesn't equal 20? I'll have to call my college math professor and get my money back.

You're a real piece of work.
 
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