Flagpole Antenna or Something Else?
(KF6IKC)
on
December 8, 2007
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Well...where should I start? I have been off the air for a few years now. I went through a separation and moved from a house to apartment. Now I am in a condo with a small backyard and of all things...a flagpole in the front yard! This instantly got me to thinking... And now the radio bug has bitten me again. I already have a list of equipment I want and will be buying to get back on the air.
Back to the issue at hand… I am looking for input from anyone who has used or is using a "flagpole" antenna. The one here is about 15' or so. It is mounted in a 3'+ section of PVC pipe.
My plan/idea is to raise the flagpole 8" in the PVC and run a bolt through it for my feedpoint. Then I will add as many radials as I can, but the length will be limited to 15' or so on three sides but maybe longer (30-40' maybe) on the 4th side.
I was also thinking or making a 10-15 turn coil out of 1/4" copper tubing and use this to help on 40-meters and then short it out for 20-10 meters. Should I use a balun or line isolator at the feedpoint? Is my coil the right size for use on 40-meters? (I will be feeding this with a LDG 1kw tuner.)
My only other option I have been looking at is the Outbacker Outreach 500 and a tripod system or maybe the Traveler TW-2010, but that wont get me on 40-meters.
Well...that's about it. Please share what you feel is needed.
Take care, Stan
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Flagpole Antenna or Something Else?
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by K8FV on December 8, 2007
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How motivated are you? A super installation would be to bury, at the flagpole, a weatherproof automatic tuning unit like used in the marine or land mobile service. Use as many underground radials as you can. SGC,Icom and others make such a tuner.
Insulate the flagpole and you are good to go on all bands.
Fred K8FV
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Flagpole Antenna or Something Else?
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by AA4ZZ on December 8, 2007
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QST ran an article about intalling a 4BTV trapped verical inside a flagpole. It's posted on the DX Engineering website:
http://www.dxengineering.com/pdf/flagpole_antenna.pdf
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by K0BG on December 8, 2007
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It is possible to shunt feed a flag pole and it will work fairly well. You could even use the couple to load it up.
At my pervious QTH, I shunt fed a 45 foot flag pole, about 5 feet from the base. I don't remember the actual inductance (I'd guess about 20 uH), and the motor driven cap was a 2,500 pF Jennings. It worked rather well on 40 and 80.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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by KB2DHG on December 8, 2007
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My friend I was in the same boat as you Got seperated last year and nw going through a divorce. I had to move to a restricted apartment.
I am an avaid HF ham radio opeartor and could not imagine not being on the air. I toyed with all kinds of ideas as to what antenna to put up and still to this day am thinking of other options. BUT let me tell you what I did.
First of all is the problem of a good earth ground. So I purchased the MFJ 931 Artificial ground. Then I was able to string a G5RV up on the roof. Now I was used to a Mosley TS-33 3 elemant beam up on a 55 foot tower and several wire antennas. also a great location from my home QTH but that was then and this is now. The G5RV is working quite well, NO not as good as my previous set up BUT I am on the air and working the ocaisional DX.
I would reccomend you trying the G5RV first. it is a very cheap antenna I am using the Radio Werks G5RV JR. With my antenna tuner I am working 10,15,20,30,40 and 80 meters. I do mostly CW but do get on SSB. Bottom line where there is a will there certinaly a way. if all else fails a long wire drapped around the apartment. But before you go to the expence of trying a vertical. try the G5RV or the Cobra antenna if you want to spend money. The Cobra is a great multi band antenna!
Good luck and let me know how it works out. 73 DE: KB2DHG
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by N9TA on December 8, 2007
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I'd think about using a good quality screwdriver antenna with a long whip and a few ground radials. You won't loose much on antenna height....and you will gain all band tuning ability. And, if you move....or think of something else to try....you can always stick the screwdriver on the car and do a little mobile HF!!
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by N9TA on December 8, 2007
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Hi Stan
Congrats on getting back into radio!! I had a similar sucky situation at the last QTH. I tried a very low inverted V with a SGC autotuner (received well, but TX was mostly straight up). Then I tried a Hustler 6BTV vertical on a 20 foot push-up pole with a couple of raised radials (it worked, but I received every bit of noise in the neighborhood, and transmitted into every TV and stereo in the neighborhood). I always thought of trying the screwdriver idea....but I never did. Here are the reviews for the high sierra el dorado setup which sounds like what I'd try after my past mistakes.
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/3067
What I ended up doing was MOVING...HI HI. We now have a house in the boonies with 4 acres and VERY tall trees......which are now bedecked with lots of full size wire antennas!!
73....and Good Luck.....de...Fred N9TA
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by DIPOLE on December 8, 2007
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Several questions?
1) Where in the condo is your shack relative to the front/back yard?
2) Can you bury coax?
3) Do you have any space for radials?
4) How much $$ are you willing to invest?
Unlike balanced wire dipoles, and their multi-element parasitic cousins, all verticals begin their lives at a distinct disadvantage. In terms of ERP gain/loss, verticals are a losing game from the get-go. Being that it's a monopole and must depend on a ground. Ultimately, there is no "free lunch" and the same money you would have otherwise invested in a tower, rotor, and beam, must likewise go into a vertical in the form of radials, expensive low-loss coax, and amplifiers. Verticals are like a bucket with db-losses leaking all over the place. So be prepared to do it right.
Some verticals on the market now claim to be radial-less. I haven't tried any of these, but they all seem to be a compromise for the sake of space. More traditional verticals can be ground mounted but require some buried radials. The Hustler 4BTV is ground mounted and has trap cans small enough to be encased in a PVC "flag pole".
I personally have the 6BTV over an extensive radial system (3000' total wire). All the traps have been carefully tuned and the feed point impedance ranges from 27-ohms to 73-ohms over 10-40 meters (I don't work 80) therefore I never need use a tuner. With additional protection of current chokes, I have virtually no RF in the shack and no RFI problems even with the amp cranked up to 1000 watts. Since I'm in a CC&R environment, I've painted it in camo colors match the surrounding foliage.
Just do your homework and I'm sure you'll find something that will work for you. Plan on investing in an MFJ antenna analyzer. If you go with the guys at DX Engineering, you won't be disappointed. They are extremely helpful and have all the parts necessary.
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by KG4RUL on December 8, 2007
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I have a Force 12, 23' Flagpole Antenna with 12 radials of random length and an MFJ manual tuner in the shack. I primarily operate digital modes with rarely more than 20 watts power. I am able to make contacts in Europe and South America on a fairly regular basis on 40M, 30M and 20M.
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Flagpole Antenna or Something Else?
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by KA9VHG on December 8, 2007
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I also have a Force 12 flagpole antenna. I ordered it with an extra section of tubing to make it 20' tall. I installed it with a DX Engineering radial plate and 60 radials and feed it with coax through an SGC auto coupler mounted at the base of the flagpole. Works FB - a compromise antenna to be sure but I've been very pleased with it.
73, Jim KA9VHG
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Flagpole Antenna or Something Else?
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by VE4AE on December 8, 2007
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I also had the same problem. Sold my home with a tri band beam and HT18 vertical. The condo police were against anything that even looked like an antenna. I found salvation on page 69 of November 1995 QST. Mark Weaver, WB3BJF also had the same problem. The article is entitled " A Four Band Tree Vertical". I was skeptical but put it together but eliminated the 40 meter wire. I was amazed. It worked and no one was the wiser.I pretended that I was planting flowers around the tree and I buried the cable under the sod. My first contact was into OH land. Its not a beam-its not a great vertical but I have worked some DX and every continent.
I am now a firm believer in that old poem-" I think that I shall never see a poem as lovely as a tree."
After about 10 years it still functions well. I used a # 26 brown wire for the radiators along the trunk of the tree and brown staples. No one has spotted it and it and no TVI. The radials were cut for the middle of each band and I used insulated # 14 wire.
Good luck
and 73
Jack
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by N3DOK on December 8, 2007
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Hi, I purchased the Force 12 Flag Pole. For the purpose of a flag pole. It comes with a US Flag,rope. Here is part of Force 12's info about the Flag Pole that can be used as a vertical antenna. This is no cheap metal pole!
The standard flag pole antenna has four (4) sections of 2" diameter 6061-t6 aircraft grade aluminum tubing that neatly drop into place for an overall height of 15 1/2'. There is a rotating top cap with a welded top and ear for the rope. The cleat to tie off the rope is another welded piece on the bottom section that attaches to the base insulator section. The base is simple to install using a PVC sleeve and one sack of cement - that's all there is to it. This makes the flag pole antenna non-permanent to conform to as many codes (i.e. CC&R's) as possible. Installation is about an hour using fast-drying cement (see install info below) - and you are on the air!
The Force 12 flag pole antenna comes complete with: four (4) swaged tubing sections; top rotating welded cap; rope slide; rope; flag clips; solid pultruded fiberglass base insulator and an optional installation kit. The kit includes four (4) radials already with lugs for simple attachment and a feed point pigtail. With the kit, all you need is your coax feed line.
The Force 12 aluminum flag pole antenna weighs only 12 pounds and ships in a 4' long carton. For more efficient coverage on the low bands, additional sections are available.
Check out eHams product Review of this antenna. Almost a 5/5.
Fly Old Glory and do some HF operating.
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by KB9CRY on December 8, 2007
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You can get radial length by zig zagging them back and forth away from the antenna. Also you can lay them next to the sidewalk and the grass and follow that for quite aways. You can also bend them around the condo, etc. The more wire you get down the better.
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Flagpole Antenna or Something Else?
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by W8KQE on December 8, 2007
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I think there's a company called 'Tak-Tenna' (reviews here) that has a unique design for a small 40m stealth antenna. You may want to check that out. A small horizontal loop will get you on 6m, and I believe Cushcraft makes a small, light, multiband vertical (MA5V?) with small radials that condo owners have been known to use. You simply fill a small bucket with cement, and sink a small 5 foot mast in there to mount the vertical onto. Then place it on your small patio or balcony. PAR also makes end-fed wire antennas that can be hung from nearby tree branches or higher storied buildings.
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by AF9J on December 8, 2007
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A flagpole antenna can work decently well, if you follow what has been suggested by others in this thread. Me, I live on the 2nd story of an apartment. I originally tried a mini antenna farm on my balcony (results were mixed). Then I went back to a solution I hadn't used in years - the rain gutter. I have direct access to the rain gutter on my side of the building. It's up 3 stories, and is 125 to 150 feet long. I feed it with a single wire (that I weather sealed at the feedpoint to prevent corrosion). Using this, and a 50 foot counterpoise (hidden along the basboards) with an MFJ Artificial Ground (which is basically a counterpoise tuner), I've had OK results. I occasionally work into Europe and South America. I typically run QRP (since I contest QRP), but I'll occasionally run the rigs at 100W. I also have current chokes at the feed points to my radios, to help eliminate RF feedback (which can be an issue with random wire antennas). I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that if you're creative, you can get on the air, even from a restrictive location.
73,
Ellen - AF9J
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by KC8WUC on December 8, 2007
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Although not subject to CC&R, I have decided that something with less obtrusive and having a smaller footprint is more desirable (i.e., less is more), staying true to my minimalist roots. I have a High Sierra HS-1800 Pro with a high hat and 40' radials buried in my yard. This is in addition to my Ventenna VT-27 (2m and 70cm) antenna mounted over my vent pipe on my roof. I also have a GAP Super C in my upstairs attic (eaves), which I bought used on eBay (for practically nothing!) and have connected to my Elecraft K2, which I can finally use now that I have upgraded my license. I ended up fishing the cable from the SPGP in the basement (where my radios are)up alongside the chimney and out the roof to the Ventenna. My set up works quite well for me and could probably work just as well with someone in a condo if they had a patio and maybe some grass or a flower bed where they could hide the radials and antenna.
I have considered installing a flag pole (which seems to be a good solution), however I wanted to go with something that was also low profile, not become another obstruction when I mow, and not likely to be vandalized by the jubilant delinquents in my neighborhood.
As I am planning to get married in the next year, the flag pole solution may bode better with my fiancee when I move into her home, as she is very patriotic and less likely to accept my cutting a hole in the roof or wall to access an antenna on the roof, digging up her flower bed, putting a tower up.
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by K5CQB on December 8, 2007
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Mount your ATU inside the ugliest yard troll you can find. Hihi.
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by N0RIE on December 8, 2007
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try an underground ant.
long wire. i use it as ccr here +side is 35ft.then bent
90 deg. for 25 ft. then back 30 ft. ,, shild is grouned to waterpipe all underground 12 in.
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by WL7BPY on December 8, 2007
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I don't want to add to the "rag on"
writting here but when I have tried to get
a DX station during a pile up,
the only thing that reaaly bugs me is,
as one post puts it : The op who will not
wait for the DX station to end the current qso and give his QRZ'd for another station to be worked.
I don't undersatand that one. I guess it wouldn't be so bad but they seem to keep doing over and over again.
Pile ups can be tough and there are times I want to
give in to the band conditions or the " Big Guns"
but most of the time I stick it out and I wind up
with a good contact. That makes it all worth it.
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by WL7BPY on December 8, 2007
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oooops sorry wrong comment to wrong post.
op error sorry
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by N7KFD on December 8, 2007
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About five years ago when I was in your situation I was lucky enough to have a tree about twenty feet away from my bedroom window. I ran a random wire out the window to the tree and since I was on the third floor let it drop to about ten feet off the ground. I used 22 gauge hookup wire and no one ever saw it. Was it a three element beam? Not even close, but it worked.
Good luck,
Jim
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by W7ETA on December 8, 2007
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No problem with a comment in the wrong topic.
This article should have been posted in the Elmer section.
73
Bob
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by ONAIR on December 8, 2007
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Recently saw an antenna disguised as a clinging vine and installed in a "trellis" make of wooden lattice! The guy had it mounted on the side of his home in his "garden", which was comprised of an interesting mixture of real and artificial plants and flowers. It looked like evergreen ivy, and no one would have guessed it was an antenna.
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by N0AH on December 8, 2007
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Call Force 12...............they sell plenty of them. Look under eham reviews
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by N5ARA on December 8, 2007
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Tom of ZeroFive antennas can offer you some alternatives as well.. 73 booker
http://www.zerofive-antennas.com/
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by W4VR on December 8, 2007
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Everyone associates a flagpole with a vertical. Why don't you replace your flagpole with PVC pipe and run open-wire line inside the pole and install a dipole inverted vee at the top made of the smallest wire you can find. Place a remotely tuned tuner at the base with coax to the shack. If you want details on how to do this, send an email to K8KAS...he uses something similar on his small lot and it works great!
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by W5FYI on December 8, 2007
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I think your loading coil will be a little too small for a 16-foot 40-meter flagpole. You'll need something around 8 uH of so at the base to cancel reactance. Thirty turns on a 2" diameter by 10" long form should be sufficient for the loading coil. Even so, you should have around 5 ohms of radiation resistance from the 16' pole.
Stew
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by WD6GLA on December 8, 2007
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My vote goes for the recomendation for putting up a Hustler vertical in stealth mode if you cant string up some wire for an antenna .
I doubt if you can adapt one to fit that front flagpole unless you are lucky enough thats its PVC or some nonconductive pipe that happens to be the right diameter , but I see no reason you cant put another flagpole in the back yard ( hey , you're very Patriotic , right ? ) . Or maybe a bird feeder on a pole ? Be creative . For $120 bucks + some Home Depot PVC pipe a 4BTV is hard to beat . You cant buy a decent tuner or remote tuner for that kind of money . Its not the ultimate setup , but you're in a bind , and I think the Hustler is the best solution to your problem .
Everybody has their own opinion , but I think the 4BTV is the best bang for the buck . The 5BTV has such a narrow bandwidth on 80 its not worth the extra money . Ditto the 6BTV , and actually 30 meters is very easy to add to the 4BTV with a short piece of wire .
Good luck , remember where there is a will ... there is a way . See you on the bands !
73, Bob WD6GLA
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by WM2P on December 9, 2007
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I have had great results with a 65' random wire into a tree next to my house connected to a Current 4:1 balun. For a ground I used several wires cut to one quarter lenghts of the bands from 80 and up. Works very well from 40 to 10m. Not so great on 80 as it is only a quarter wave there. Worked 48 states and 102 countries in 9 months with very good signal reports (when true ones are given). Recently added a 600w AL-811 amp and am now working Africa and Japan with my little random wire. I rarely wait long in pileups unless it is truly a rare DX station with a huge amount of hams waiting.
No one can see the antenna and my neighbors have no idea I am a ham. Since adding the amp I have installed a RF choke balun before my amp and after it. No RFI in the shack. No TVI. No complaints from anyone and I work the same stations as the local hams with wire antennas do. I used #14 wire which exits my house from the attic. The counterpoises are in the attic and spread out in a cirucular pattern as much as possible. My biggest cost was the balun and tuner so that I can work all bands. If you take care with the counterpoises you may not even need a tuner. My antenna will have less than 1.5:1 SWR from 50 to 10 meters without a tuner. I used to run it barefoot without a tuner but bought one when I bought the amp.
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by VA3MRJ on December 9, 2007
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I bought a 25 foot flagpole on ebay for about $ 80.00 and made my own insulator, installed it on my front lawn with 10 or 12 ground radials, laid on top on the grass. Radial vary in length from 10 feet to 20 feet in a rough circle around the base. I ran the coax directly from my Icom IC 746II to the base of the flagpole. Connected the center conducter to the pole and the ground to a junction box with all the radials in it. It tunes perfectly on all ham bands with no balun and no long wire tuner. Performance on 40 meters is amazing, 20 is ok but 80 meters is not much use locally because of the take off angle. It also tunes all the marine bands except 6 megs.
I live in Kitchener Ontario Canada (70 mi west of Toronto) and i talk to Florida on 40 meters all the time. I have two dipoles in the attic and a triband beam in the attic pointed south. The flagpole outperforms all of these by several s units on receive and is much quieter. I have made contacts from Europe and get 54 signal reports. Really miss my TH 6 but in my new house no towers allowed. Neighbors have no idea the pole is an antennae. I also tried loading the eves trough and a seperate long wire around the house above the roofline, di not work very well. Really happy to be back on the air with the flagpole. The amazing things it tunes up on all freq without a 4:1 balun, whci I also tried but found no difference.
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by K5MDM on December 9, 2007
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Howdy from west Texas. My experience with verticals is limited but not that limited..youll have to lay out a great ground cause thats the key to verticals...And that on is pretty short as well...you really need 33 feet min to get decent on 40 but you are a lot closer to good ground so it may not be too bad. 4@ 33' wires buried in your grass with an edger or the like should do well, but you add tow 67' wires to it if you can. I think I would bury a 4:1 balun at the poles and go into the shack with rg213 or good buryable coax should do ok...Still for most days of the year, if you can slip an OCF BUckmast dipole under you eaves (total 135' or so, Id think it better...73 Murray K5MDM
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by KD0DE on December 14, 2007
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Use the flagpole you have, add an SGC-230 coupler and radials. Done. Dirt simple and effective. I've been very happy with mine. If you could lengthen the flagpole a little more (5 feet or so) it would work even better.
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by WB4TJH on December 15, 2007
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I also agree that the easiest thing to do is put down as many and as long a set of buried radials as you can, and hide a remote auto tuning device at the bottom of the antenna. I have a friend who used an AH-4 Icom remote tuner at the base of his flagpole and worked the world for many years with it. And the Nazi HO association never even suspected it.
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by KE4D on December 16, 2007
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Used a flagpole back in the mid 90s when I lived in an antenna restricted subdivision. I bought a 20 foot commercial brushed aluminum flagpole. I fed it with coax through an SGC tuner buried next to the pole. Flew my flag, lit the pole, made the HOA happy and got to stay on the air.
It wasn't the best antenna I've had by far, but at least it worked.
John KE4D
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by KC8YHW on December 18, 2007
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I know about CCRs and such but have you thought about an inverted Vee that you put up and take down as needed? I found some five conducter wire intended for direct burial sprinker systems, I then cut a piece for the low end of the band and then cut one of the conductors to the high end, then the remaning three got cut to make up the difference in lengths much like a multi-band fan antenna. I then threaded it into ski-tow rope and fastened the end with a wire tie, braided in a loop at the other end for a tent stake and instant portable Inverted Vee.
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by KD8AZO on December 20, 2007
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Stan, I currently use a flagpole with excellent results. Something you may want to consider is what I used before the flagpole. I took a 3 ft. square aluminum street sign (acquired at a local metal scrap yard) drilled a hole in the center big enough to accomodate a connector (like you see on a mobile mount), put the connector through the hole, screwed coax to the bottom, a hamstick to the top, and set it out in the yard when I wanted to operate, and put it away when done. (That kept peace with the XYL, the landlady, the neighbors, etc). It worked well, with CW contacts coast to coast on 100 watts, and PSK31 contacts from Moscow to Buenos Aires on 20 watts. Something to consider.
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by W6PEA on December 21, 2007
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I live in a condo, How well would the 3ft. Sq. sheet of metal work on a wooden balconey?
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by KA3DPW on December 22, 2007
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Well I started out in a similar situation. I got to a place where I could add a flagpole. I got a force 12 and an extra section and added some radials.
I found I liked 40 meters more and the bands were fading into the sunspot cycle. This antenna is good 20 meters and up but lacks gump 30 and down.
Loading coil was more efficient but not enough. A piece of wire strung off the antenna helped some and allowed me to operate lower. That had to do until I came up with a better design.
I got out of the front yard and into the backyard. There I dug a hole 4 feet deep with a post hole digger W? a digging bar and into it I placed a 5 foot cast iron pipe cemented.
Next I got a ground radial plate. I attached some 60 radials 33 feet in length. This took up an area of 66 feet around. I had at least 17 feet to spare on any given side to any property line.
Next I got hold of a piece of 50 ohm hardline with one n-connector on it. I placed it at the station end.
The vertical was made of 33 feet of tubing of various sizes slittled at each end allowing each smaller size to fit into the previous and used hose clamps to tighen the fit.
This is mounted on a hinge with a base fitting into the pipe from the ground. It can hinge in any direction and tell me where any radial ends. It also gets around nearby objects.
It holds up in the heaviest winds, it has an oil filled insulator at the base. It'll take any amount of power I can legally throw and it has minimal loss.
The thing tha tmakes it invisible? It's painted flat black. It vanishes to the trees behind it.
Another ham liked my idea and built one similar in some trees as a wire on a wooden pole. He has 35 radials.
I have a flat SWR on 40 and use a tuner everywhere else. 1.3 at the edges of 40.
I can tune 80 without a problem and 160 at 3 to 1.
It took 3 years to design and build and its portable and will easily meet my local CC&R regulations.
The neighbors know its here but never hear it and its not an eyesore.
You just about have to be on the radials to see it.
The cost wss gradually paid over time. about $700 total. That includes the transmission line and the radials. The antenna is 110 feet from the station.
No I don't use a ground rod forthe antenna except for bleeders. The radials are sufficient for the ground.
I do use a ground for the station end thats got about 7 feet of 3 inch copper to the 8 foot rod. Of course I do use a linear so I defintely want a good ground thats non inductive.
I use common mode filters and harmonic filters. The transmission line is buried so are the radials.
Nobody sees it nobody hears it. No wind to knock it down. When I take it down I place a birdbath over the mount. Hows that for stealth?
How close are the neighbors? well I can look out the window at the station and see into the kitchen of one and from the door I can see into the back room of another. How close is that? Yet I don't get into thier clock radio, the telephone, the TV the stereo, nothin. I run high power. I even have a telephone patch
Wow guess I'm just one of a few Hams who just doesn't have a problem. Or did I learn something over the years?
Yeah planning is alot toward your next ham shack and your antenna.
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Flagpole Antenna or Something Else?
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by N1BHH on December 26, 2007
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Mail this to a friend!
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I happen to think your idea of using the flagpole is very good. Don't go out and buy any pre-made antennas. One you build on your own is best. You get to experiment. Plenty of radials will do, as many as you can. I would bury the radials to give you more ground conductivity and efficiency. There are a number of articles on eham that you can find on feeding verticals. There are many more on other sites that you can use. When I get an idea of what I want for an antenna, I use Google search and look over as many articles as I can and get the idea worked up into a usable form and get it together and try it out.
Experimenting can be fun, I hope you will be able to get a good signal with that, there have been many who were able to do it with much shorter antennas. Lot's of luck.
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