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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Defining a DX or Contest Contact

Duane Grotophorst (N9DG) on May 28, 2008
View comments about this article!

What really is required for a ham radio contact to be considered "a contact”?

One of the things that can generate considerable debate is the question of what exactly is a ham radio contact? And what role do supporting technologies play, or should play, in the making of a contact? And are there now technologies that violate the spirit of what a “contact” actually is and has always been? Probably the most contentious supporting technology is the personal computer, and by extension the Internet. Does that really need to be so? Or does this question itself really have nothing to do with computing technology, but instead has everything to do with the “how” we operate our stations?

There are some that feel computers should never be mixed with radio in any form at all. Then there are others on the completely opposite end of spectrum who consider a contact made mostly over a voice over IP mechanism on the Internet just another ham “radio” contact. And then in contesting circles there is the frequent debate as to what constitutes “assistance”. The anti computer crowd consider the use of computers themselves, in any form, “assistance”. And even some of the anti computer crowd consider PC based waterfalls and panadapters “inappropriate assistance” as well. However most of those same highly vocal opponents of mixing PC's with radios have no qualms about using radios with embedded microprocessors or even DSP. And oddly enough many of them are even OK with SDR, but only as long as it only emulates a traditional radio, and uses only knobs and buttons.

On the other end of the spectrum there are those who consider that the “making of contact itself”, no matter what the set up is prior, or if outside assistance is used, is all that matters. So the pre-scheduling of contacts, including the use real-time chat pages while making the contact is completely fine and appropriate to them. And also the use of DX spotting networks whether radio based or Internet based is as well. In fact much of todays DXing is driven from DX spotting networks. Have to wonder how less DXing there would be if there were no spotting networks of any kind?

And then in between these two extremes are those who are more pragmatic about the role of intermixing PC technology with radio. They tend to view computers and related technologies as simply a technological evolution of radio. However many of them still tend to think of it as only incrementally enhancing the traditional tried and true methods of doing things. However increasingly there are more who are now beginning to see its real potential for powerful signal processing, and some new, not before possible ways to have total band situational awareness. And along with that awareness some new highly efficient methods to act upon what they can now discover more efficiently . Often it is these more forward looking ops that tend get these debates fired up. There is currently one going on with the recent release of Alex, VE3NEA's “CWSkimmer” SDR program.

So back to the original question posed at the beginning of this article: What exactly should be considered a “contact” for DX or contest purposes? And should the use of certain technologies be “disallowed”? If so, which ones?

I have pondered these questions for some time and think that I have come up with a fairly simple answer. To me a “contact” for either contesting or DX purposes simply needs to have met these three key criteria:

1.“Was the contact made using equipment and technology that is wholly contained within my station's defined location”?

2.“Do I find or discover the stations that I work using equipment and technology that is wholly contained within my station's defined location”?

3.“Do I make the contacts using the single, direct via RF propagation paths to and from the other station”.

Notice that I put no restrictions at all on what the technology makeup is that is contained within my defined station to locate, demodulate, or decipher the signals that I find. So if I can build it, and it is wholly contained within my station, then it is fair game to use. After all isn't one of ham radio's very earliest foundations built on “advancing the radio art” technologically to improve ones own ability to directly contact another amateur?

And also note that I do not include the use of external, or parallel channels of communications such as spotting networks to pre-arrange, or to locate the stations to work. I think that it is fundamental that is it me, and also my skills at using all the capabilities of the station that I have put together which is key. Having a collective community of others pointing me towards the stations to work diminishes what has always been central to simply getting on the bands and making DX or contest contacts for oneself. It doesn't really matter to me that the collective community is passing the information along over a VHF DX cluster, the telephone, or the Internet. There really isn't any difference between them.

As for rag chewing none of this really matters all that much. In that case is there is no “claim” to making the contact, its sole purpose is to gab with someone.

The only modifier that I would allow for is the complete remote control of the station as along as all of the 3 criteria listed above are met for how I learn about the stations to work, and to work them. And the claims for contacts made be only for the location of the “RF terminal”. The remote station control point simply represents a radio with very long speaker, mic, and control panel connections.

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K9ZF on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think the biggest issue involved is simply "resistance to change".

Resistance to change is part of human nature. And, I've found that it seems to increase as we grow older. Even in myself.

Is it fair that someone can work DXCC using spotting networks and a $10,000 rig that does everything but send the QSL, while another op had to do it finding every contact on his own with an HW101? No, but that's life.


73
Dan
--
K9ZF /R no budget Rover ***QRP-l #1269
Check out the Rover Resource Page at: <http://www.qsl.net/n9rla>
List Administrator for: InHam+grid-loc+ham-books
Ask me how to join the Indiana Ham Mailing list!

 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by N7YA on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think what it comes down to is what the individual operator considers to be the goal in their own shack.

If the goal is bragging rights, then perhaps they would be better served using methods that have long since been surpassed by technology, regardless of how effective the old technology is. For some hams, youre not a real ham unless you used a Collins S line and 1800's hand pump to make the contact. Still others consider the goal to be enjoyment, regardless of the means they used to log the contact...one still needs to be heard on the other end, and they have to make sure the DX doesnt bust the call. In that case, no spotting network or computerized rig will save the qso.

I think you can see the direction im going in here. What you consider to be important to a degree of near desperation may be absolutely unimportant to the next guy...and who among us has the right to tell him differently? And again, who has the right to tell you how to enjoy the hobby as well?

I love DXing, and i also like contesting....but primarily because i can nail down a few new DX contacts. On occasion, i use spots to see who is out there reporting what from where. But by no means does DX summit do my DXing for me...i have a ticket because i like to do things myself. But really now, who am i to make an assessment on a fellow hams character based on the methods he uses to enjoy himself in a legal manner on the radio.

Now i know that the argument is that, regardless of if these methods are bothering me directly or not, is on a steady path to undermining the fabric of tradition in ham radio....but the tradition of ham radio is explorative in nature. It always was.

Weve all hashed this argument out for many years now in various forums and still technology and convenience have continued to merge and move forward with little regard to what is considered tradition among the ranks. The reason for this is because the ranks are the ones initiating these changes....fellow hams. This will most likely break out into debate and lines will be drawn, and arguments of "they hand out tickets in cracker jack boxes now" vs "why dont we just go back to horse drawn carriages again" will flow freely through this upcoming thread. Basically all the stuff weve heard before...and it never changed anything more than cementing an aging population of hams further into their own opinions of the hobby they are supposed to be enjoying.

My personal take on the question originally asked...a contact is good if he got your call correctly, and this requires the most important tool of all, your ears and patience. During a contest, i have long been an opponent of signal reports where its not specifically important. Most big gun stations would agree...most also just try to get it out of the way at 90 wpm before giving the far more pertinent information (zone, grid, number, etc...). In a contest or a dx pileup, the call and official exchange is the most important part, a signal report is pointless for these types of contacts. He already has your call, hes in a hurry, who cares if you are s6 or s7 ??

But a signal report is very important in a ragchew or any casual gear check operating session...you want to know how your signal is holding up! I know i always log the signal report, everytime. And an honest signal report can give you information that you could use. It really all depends on what you want to get out of ham radio, dont worry so much about what the next guy is doing....be honest, you would be offended if he was trying to dictate how YOU enjoyed the hobby, right? Think about how that must sound going the other way...and if you dont care, then why should he be considerate of your opinions. see how it starts?

Everyone relax, get what you can from the hobby and try to enjoy it.....and yes, THAT has been said a million times before too, but precious few actually heed the advice.

73...Adam, N7YA

 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by KB9CRY on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To me a “contact” for either contesting or DX purposes simply needs to have met these three key criteria:
I think that it is fundamental that is it me, and also my skills at using all the capabilities of the station that I have put together which is key.


This is nothing but another Trolling Article.

You have your own personal convictions which do not have any bearing on anyone else's.
 
World's most anal hobby?  
by K0RS on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
At first I didn’t think this post was for real. But I hit the “Refresh” button and here it came back, like a bad penny. So I checked the calendar and it wasn’t April first, not even in GMT, so I guess it must be for real.

That being the case, I do my level best to give an answer to what is a “good contact.”

In my opinion there are only two cases when you can legitimately claim “good contact.”

1. Net control proclaims “Good contact!” Here’s how that works:

You’re polishing your G W Bush commemorative medal replica with the ‘PHO family hour playing in the background. You like to hang out on the DX nets ‘cuz you’ve heard they really help the little pistol. Your new (to you) TS-520 and G5RV at 30’ solidly qualify you in this category. Suddenly you hear Brazil is gonna be up. Holy F2 Layer Batman! You’ve never heard Brazil before, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. You grab your mic and drop in the last two, repeatedly. Wow, the pileup sounds like Bouvet. Finally the net head gets your last two.

The PY shows up, but drat, wouldn’t you know it, you can’t hear him! Dang, and you were gonna raise that G5RV to 35’ too. Don’t panic, there’s still and excellent chance for a “good contact.” Remember, all it takes is for the net control to proclaim the contact as “good.” You got three chances to guess, er, copy your report with only minimal coaching from net control.

At last it’s your turn. Be confidant. “PY7XXX, your 59!” And wait a bit. You’ll know it’s time to acknowledge the PY’s report, ‘cuz the net control will subtly prompt you with a not-to-patient “OVER!” Go for the gusto: “ Ten-Fo…er..roger, roger Raul. Thanks for the 59!” Now here’s where you gotta be cool. If it’s not 59, then the net control will let you know. “Nope, Grote, think a small caliber bullet.” You can really show your operating savvy if you keep composed. You know that there’s only three reports allowed, 59, 55, and 22. Well, you already tried 59, and even if you’re not the brightest bulb on the string, you know 55 isn’t small caliber, it’s a really worn out .50 cal! Save a little face and show some panache. “Oh yeah, guess I got some bleed over from them dang contesters up the band. Thanks for the 22!”

“GOOD CONTACT!!”

2. ARRL proclaims “Good contact!”

This can be a bit more frustrating. Here’s an example. A few years back I worked Yemen on CW. I got his call. He got mine. I got his report, he got mine. He was really there, in Yemen. But the ARRL didn’t proclaim “Good contact!” Dang, I guess I didn’t really work ‘em. See what I mean?

“NO CONTACT!”
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by KY6R on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think DX-ing before the cluster was much easier - you could spin the dial and jump into a small pileup - or NO pileup and work a new one. I was a very casual DX-er in the 70's.

It took a lot of time and patience.

Now, I can find the DX quicker, but have to wait longer to get through the pileups. With the very large, well run DX-peditions, I know in advance when they will be there.

It still takes a lot of time and patience. Its the same - only different . . . In fact - I think it takes a lot more skill to get through these massive pileups - especially when you aren't running an amp.

It still is just as much fun working DX where there are no or small pileups - so there is actually more variety - and modes than ever. Its better than ever!

The contact counts when I was operating the station and I ended up in the DX stations log and got either a card or LOTW confirm.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by KF4HR on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
From just a purely 'contact definition' standpoint; exchanging callsigns and signal reports equals a contact. Defining a 'contest contact' might add other data criteria (a sequential number, grid square, etc). Whether the contact takes place via a; key, mic, or PC, it counts - and when the above data gets exchanged... congrats... you've got your "contact".

More and more of the contesting and DX'ing efforts are becoming computerized. Spots are posted for us, with a click or two of the mouse rigs and amplifiers auto-QSY, the proper antenna is selected for the band, directional antennas automatically turn to the station, antenna tuners automatically tune, and by selecting a spot we've already started partially filling out our log, even before we make the contact. So what's next?

What will be interesting is when PC's and radio equipment become so intelligent that you'll be able to turn them on, select the award(s) and/or contest(s) you're looking to enter, then go fishing or turn on the game, and come back a few hours or a few days later to see your score! Imagine the thrill! Your PC will monitor all the bands, search for the best multipliers, or needed DX, change bands as necessary, check for dups in a fraction of second, and make contacts much faster and with a higher score than any human could, and when you return your score will be flashing on your PC screen like a pin-ball game!

Of course there's always the possibility that the hobby could use more QSO's and less contacts. Naaaaaaaa

KF4HR



 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by KD5SFK on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
This seems silly....It seems like a "contact" occurs when both stations can copy and acknowledge each other over the air without aid of another station. By "over the air" I mean no VOIP involved.

I have no problem with packet or Internet DX spotting services because you still have to make the contact over the air for it to count. Just because the DX cluster says Pitcarin Island is on 28.450 doesn't mean you can hear the guy! Also, if you're going to discount contacts that you made because you found out about them on a DX cluster, then you also have to discount all the contacts you made because your buddies on the local 2m repeater made an announcement that a certain DX station was on a certain frequency.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by W4LGH on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You see here's a good example, I don't care about contesting, but that doesn't make me, or the contestor
a bad person. To each their own, and this is just one of the many facits of this hobby.

As far as DX contacts go, since I do NOT participate in any FORMAL rules/regs, or LBoTW rules, my contacts are mine, and I can define them as as I wish. I try to log them into my logging system, but sometimes they
get missed. Oh well.

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

Contest away...I'll be listening!
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WB2WIK on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Technology assists are legitimate, otherwise might as well debate whether using 2008 vintage equipment counts for making contacts.

However, one thing I hear quite a bit during DXpeditions and also contests is thousands of contacts that really are not legitimate because nothing was actually "exchanged." There's often the presumption of an exchange when in reality, there wasn't any.

Example:

"TO0T contest"
"WB2WIK"
"WIK 59 KW"
"5905"
"QRZ contest?

WTF?

That's the way many contest exchanges go, but there was never really an exchange. I'm not even sure he got my prefix, since I didn't hear him say it. I'm not sure he got my report, since he didn't actually acknowledge it. He shouldn't be sure I got his report, since I really didn't acknowledge that, either.

To make matters worse, let's continue that string, with TO0T's last transmission:

"QRZ contest":
"K1AR"
"K1AR 59 KW"
"5903"
"Thanks QRZ contest?"

In this case, it wasn't clear who K1AR was even calling, since the transmission preceding his call was only a "QRZ?" with no callsign sent.

That's not a legitimate contact, either.

But thousands of such "contacts" are made all the time.

DXpeditions who do not identify at least once per QSO are also guilty. "QRZ?" is not a callsign. I've heard some DXpedition ops run a string of 50 contacts in a row without identifying. To me, the last 49 all wouldn't count.

WB2WIK/6

 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by KB9CRY on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
That's not a legitimate contact, either.


I disagree. If I am able to pull a QSL card from that QSO, then the QSO is legit since the QSL card is a receipt or confirmation of the contact.


Actually no QSOs are "legit" until you exchange QSLs.
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by AB9NZ on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
As an avid birdwatcher, I would never put a bird on my list that I saw in the zoo. Although my "fair chase" life list of birds is very important to me, it doesn't mean doodly squat to anybody else.
73 Men, de Tom, AB9NZ
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WX4O on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
RF sent from my station to another station and acknowledged, without 'help', or intervention. No direct RF = no contact.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WV4L on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
DXpeditions who do not identify at least once per QSO are also guilty. "QRZ?" is not a callsign. I've heard some DXpedition ops run a string of 50 contacts in a row without identifying. To me, the last 49 all wouldn't count.

WB2WIK/6

I'm rather new to this sort of thing, but I will agree with WB2WIK/6. One of my pet peeves is coming across a DX pileup and monitoring for several minutes to find out what station is actually calling when they finally identify themselves. The exchange of one anothers acknowledged calls gives each station confirmation that each was actually copied by the other. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think this is and should be best practice and proper protocol. Of course, I'm also finding out that "best practice" isn't always practiced.
Ok, back to turning the knobs at my little station and making a few contacts here and there which sometimes turn into to some really nice friendly QSO's.

73
Wayne C.
WV4L
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K4LVR on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
A "valid" contact, at minimum, is "he copies your call and you copy his". Signal reports would be nice, but mostly everyone says 59 so they are irrelevant. If I hear you, and understand you, then youre 59, right?

But KB9CRY says:

>Actually no QSOs are "legit" until you exchange QSLs.

So is my 100% all LoTW DXCC award in less than a year OK by your reasoning? Even if I have never received one single physical QSL card for any of the QSO's?

Digitali Iligitematus QSLrundum!

P.S. I enjoyed the one gents' ranting about DX and WAS nets. I find it incredible that these nets exist! You can, with very humble stations, work all states in a weekend like during SS or NAQP. I did it as a Novice in the 70's with wires and a HW16 at 75w, and continue to do so yearly in SS, FD and NAQP in both SSB and CW.

Now, if someone would just MOVE to NWT in Canada with a big signal!

And, BTW, Yes, Virginia, FD *IS* a contest. If it wansnt, why, then, do they keep score and rankings?

-lu-
 
RE: World's most anal hobby?  
by K4QE on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K0RS,

Thanks for the good laugh!

That was great!

Rifle-shot, rifle-shot! Bang-bang!
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WC4V on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
DXpeditions who do not identify at least once per QSO are also guilty. "QRZ?" is not a callsign. I've heard some DXpedition ops run a string of 50 contacts in a row without identifying. To me, the last 49 all wouldn't count.

WB2WIK/6

I'm not sure the regulations of ham radio in other countries, but they may not be required to id after every transmission. If I have been listening to the DX and/or contester for abit, I really don't need him to identify after the contact I make with him. At that point, I already know it!

WC4V
Steve
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by G0GQK on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
In removing all the ancillary bits and pieces, what defines a DX contact can vary, and does vary with each band. If most of the contacts at the moment on 10 metres are about a 1000 miles maximum distance, if you make a contact that is 3,000 miles away, that is DX.

Last week on most bands, the contacts have been around Europe, as they have been for some time, however, for a short time on 30 metres I saw a station in Vladivostock, never seen one from the Russian Far East before, that is DX.

G0GQK
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by N5EAT on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Back in 1984 - my early CW days...I might not have a clue who I was chatting with until I spent many moments scrutinizing the chicken scratching I'd done during the qso. Days later i'd be able to say that I worked callsign x who was in city y and he gave me z signal report.

Ah...those were the days.
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K6CRC on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
If it were not for contests or the QSL nets parodied here, most newer hams would have empty log books. Too many old timers are on eHam writing bad comedy instead of on the air making good contacts.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by W7ETA on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Great Prose.

If I submit a card for DXCC, then the ARRL specifies what a good QSO is.

If I'm in a contest, then the contest sponsor specifies what a good Q is.

When I used to hunt DX in DX nets, I would mark in my log book if it was a net DX Q. When no new DX would be on the bands, I would go back and work DX that wasn't in a net, if my only Q with that country was in a DX net.

The only person who knows how I worked DXCC countries The League has given me credit for, is me.

I don't worry about how other people work DX.
I don't worry about other ham using the internet to make Qs.

However, I do hope other hams will have as many years enjoying ham radio as I have.

73
Bob

 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WA1RNE on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

by KF4HR on May 28, 2008

From just a purely 'contact definition' standpoint; exchanging call signs and signal reports equals a contact.


>>> Exactly - and I completely agree with WB2WIK as well.

If I had a buck for every station worked by DX'ers that continually failed to complete the exchange by indicating their call sign, I'd just as well have hit the lottery.


Here's another way of looking at it:

When I was first licensed and until the late 70's, FCC reg's required that EVERY TRANSMISSION be logged, including experiments. That meant that if you made contact with another amateur you were required to keep a log of that contact.

To log a contact, there had to be a confirmation of call signs on both sides - - yes, you had to actually hear the station say (or send) their call sign.

Other information required for the log was the start/end time, frequency, mode and power level at your station.

If the station you worked DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE YOU BY YOUR CALL SIGN AND CONFIRM THEIRS - OVER THE AIR - THERE WAS TECHNICALLY NO CONTACT - *** and no QSL card either.


If the old rules for maintaining a log of all transmissions were in force today, most exchanges between U.S. amateurs and DX stations during pile-ups and contests would not be so cavalier and incomplete.


....WA1RNE
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact - Troll article  
by AI2IA on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
All you suckers rise to the bait, and it's old bait, too!

IT MATTERS NOT WHETHER YOU WIN OR LOSE. IT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME.

Set high standards for yourself and stick to them. Forget awards from others, unless they acknowledge your own high standards, then accept them.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact - Troll artic  
by NB3O on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Actually no QSOs are "legit" until you exchange QSLs."

I remember a guy a few years back that would sell you some pretty rare ones with a canceled postmark and the callsign field left intentionally blank......
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact - Troll artic  
by N6NKN on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Who cares.....have fun.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K3EY on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
If you read WB2WIK/6's comments here is a guy who takes this hobby IMO way to serious. I don't care and in fact couldn't care any less about such silly little things. I have major ongoing life issues I deal with daily--- disabled wife to worry about, drive to the moon daily to get to work, and way more---to me this is a great hobby for an escape. I do just that by running a bunch of DX stations on CW with not much exchange or actually have a real rag chew, whatever I feel like at the time. I have enough to worry about dealing with life let alone frivolous flack to ponder further upsetting my nervous system, and for no good reason. Lighten Up Guys--- here today gone tomorrow. The ultimate contact will be when you past into eternity.
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K1CJS on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Are we talking 'official' or 'casual' contacts here? In my opinion, since this is supposed to be a hobby anybody you talk to over the airwaves is a contact. If you need it confirmed for whatever reason, go for it--but it isn't necessary to do so!

The way some hams just have to confirm this and verify that takes the pleasure out of the hobby, as far as I'm concerned. An entry in my logbook is a contact for me, whether or not we exchange QSL cards or not. I'm in this hobby for relaxation and fun, not to burn myself out trying to beat hundreds of other hams scores after a contest.

Oh, and as far as electronic QSLs--forget it. AFAIC, those are just more 'additions' to the hobby that help to take the enjoyment of it away.
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WM2P on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You forgot the DX networks used by those chasing awards and QSL cards. With network controllers announcing the call signs of both stations and lists of stations to call handy, it becomes very easy to make a contact because you already know what the call is. Take away the foreknowledge of the other station's call sign and that static you hear becomes more difficult to understand. The same is true in any situation when you do not understand what you hear. Once someone tells you what is being said, all of a sudden the words become crystal clear through whatever speach impediment which prevented you from hearing it before. Is this a real contact? Sometimes from what I hear I have to believe that some of these contacts are only confirmed due to the prompting by the network controller and repeated announcements of what each station is saying.

My personal standards are that I have to hear my call sign being repeated by the contact and I have to have the contact verify that I have the correct call sign. I have often fallen into the trap of using a DX Cluster and then finding out later that someone else was using that frequency and I was not contacting the station that was listed in the DX Cluster. That is why I will now wait until I clearly hear the other station's call before I even attempt the contact. Then I will enter it into QRZ to see if it is valid; not all foreign stations are in that database but it helps.

I am so hard on myself that I made a 5 watt QRP contact with the Ducie Island DXpedition a few months ago. I heard them come back to my call with a signal report. I responded with their signal report but did not hear them confirm that they got it as they quickly moved on to the next ham in the pile up. I did not log that contact but the next day it appeared in their log. I may make a mistake or two during the year but I know that my contacts have been verified by my standards and I really do not need any outside agency to confirm them for me. Heck, a contact that you think you made will bring you the same amount of pleasure as a real one and having fun is what it is all about; or is it???? :)
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by N6NKN on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Two...two...two...two...twenty-two....twenty-two...minimum minimum minimum!!!
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K2DC on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The general convention has been that a "good contact" consists of the two-way exchange of two pieces of previously unknown information - like callsigns and reports, or callsigns and names or locations. Contests all specify their own requirements for information exchange for a valid contact in their contest.

However, DXCC rules do not specify what constitutes a "good contact". That means that if both parties agree that a contact has been made, and if the contact has been confirmed in writing or via LOTW between operations approved for DXCC credit, it's a "good contact" - end of story.

I have no quams about the use of DX clusters used for spotting for DXCC. Some contests do not allow their use, and they shouldn't be used in those cases. I also have no quams about DX Nets, although most of what shows up on them are typically easy pickings anyway.

Some of those who believe that use of internet spotting services for DXCC is "cheating" must have been asleep for a long time. DX spotting predates the internet by quite some time, in packet clusters and VHF/UHF local spotting nets. I congratulate those who achieved their awards without assistance, and I appreciate how difficult and demanding it must have been. But to consider use of spotting for DXCC credits as "cheating" sounds a little like "I used to walk six miles to school barefoot in the winter everyday". Yes you're tough and you did it and I acknowledge that. Yes, there advantages today that didn't previously exist. But they exist and they are available to and legitimate for all of us to use.

Spot 'em, work 'em, log 'em, confirm 'em, and enjoy the award that you EARNED. You worked 'em.

Okay, off the soapbox.

73 All,

Don, K2DC
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by N4UM on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Who cares?
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by HAMMERTIME on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K3EY SAID "If you read WB2WIK/6's comments here is a guy who takes this hobby IMO way to serious. I don't care and in fact couldn't care any less about such silly little things. I have major ongoing life issues I deal with daily--- disabled wife to worry about, drive to the moon daily to get to work, and way more---to me this is a great hobby for an escape. I do just that by running a bunch of DX stations on CW with not much exchange or actually have a real rag chew, whatever I feel like at the time. I have enough to worry about dealing with life let alone frivolous flack to ponder further upsetting my nervous system, and for no good reason. Lighten Up Guys--- here today gone tomorrow. The ultimate contact will be when you past into eternity."

At what point do you take the hobby seriously? When someone kerchunks your local repeater all the time and it gets on your nerves? When someone tunes up or starts calling CQ on or near your ongoing QSO?
When it comes down down to it and you need those last few contacts to make your award that you are shooting for, you will want the contact(s) to be valid regardless of what your non award related QSO's modus operandi (spelling?) is/are!
If you do not care about such silly little things, then why did you post?
When was the last time you wrote a good article or answered a question on here in a non blaming, non judgemental manner?


 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WA2JJH on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The DX station bearly hears you over the others.
He repeats your call sign.(somewhat correct)
Gives you a 5N9 signal report. 73----NEXT!!!!!!!
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WA1RNE on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
by K2DC on May 29, 2008

The general convention has been that a "good contact" consists of the two-way exchange of two pieces of previously unknown information - like callsigns and reports, or callsigns and names or locations. Contests all specify their own requirements for information exchange for a valid contact in their contest.

However, DXCC rules do not specify what constitutes a "good contact". That means that if both parties agree that a contact has been made, and if the contact has been confirmed in writing or via LOTW between operations approved for DXCC credit, it's a "good contact" - end of story.



>>> Considering that to even get on the air you must have a valid call sign, one would think an exchange of call signs to identify exactly who each party is should be the *minimum* to establish "contact", yes??


The logic doesn't get any simpler, regardless of what the rules are for the latest and greatest contest.

Maybe DXCC rules are a bit flawed, especially with the advent of DX Clusters. According to Section I, paragraph 4 of the DXCC rules:

"Confirmation *data* for two-way communications must include the call signs of both stations, the entity name as shown in the DXCC List, mode, date, time and band....."


The "data" has to be there, but the rules don't specify how you must obtain it. Back maybe 15-20 years ago I would bet most stations exchanged call signs at the time of contact.

But the way pileups are run these days, many stations simply blurt out their call sign without ever addressing the other station - and then merely listen for a while afterwards until the DX station ID's - which could be after QSB subsides and he can actually hear the DX station - or someone else calls the DX station and they pick up the call sign - or they look it up on a DX Cluster..... that could be 15 minutes later. This type of operating isn't in the true spirit of really working DX and sometimes allows the station to get in first ahead of others without actually hearing the other station.


Maybe it's time DXCC rules were revised.....


....WA1RNE
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by KE6AEE on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think the harder you work for something the more its worth. I always admire those who can do more with less. For example someone who has a jillion dollars for equipment and antennas, as opposed to some ole timer who has his basic shack, a wire antenna running 100 watts and can make the same contact. Sure its rare that he might get the contact, but its worth a whole lot more because it was worked for. I guess it's the attitude of the day fast and easy with little work.

Richard
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by KC5CQD on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
If I get his callsign, RST, QTH, rig, power and antenna type.......he goes in the trusty ole' Yaesu Logbook. It's a contact as far as I'm concerned. But then again, I'm not a contester or paper-chaser and so I don't have to qualify my contacts by anyone else's set of rules.
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K6YE on May 29, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Bob - W7ETA,

Your comments, below, are tops, IMHO:

>by W7ETA on May 28, 2008
>Great Prose.

>If I submit a card for DXCC, then the ARRL specifies >what a good QSO is.

>If I'm in a contest, then the contest sponsor >specifies what a good Q is.

>When I used to hunt DX in DX nets, I would mark in >my log book if it was a net DX Q. When no new DX >would be on the bands, I would go back and work DX >that wasn't in a net, if my only Q with that country >was in a DX net.

>The only person who knows how I worked DXCC >countries The League has given me credit for, is me.

>I don't worry about how other people work DX.
>I don't worry about other ham using the internet to >make Qs.

>However, I do hope other hams will have as many >years enjoying ham radio as I have.

To which I add:

Your true character is revealed by the clarity of your convictions, the choices you make and the promises you keep. Hold strongly to your principles and refuse to follow the currents of convenience.
What you say and do defines who you are, and you are forever.

Semper Fi,

Tommy - K6YE
DX IS
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by K3EY on May 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
When it comes down down to it and you need those last few contacts to make your award that you are shooting for, you will want the contact(s) to be valid regardless of what your non award related QSO's modus operandi (spelling?) is/are!
If you do not care about such silly little things, then why did you post?
When was the last time you wrote a good article or answered a question on here in a non blaming, non judgemental manner?-------------------------------------------------------



You need to take a pill--pray or talk to somebody.

I have written an article/s and most were never posted.

As for worrying about getting that award...what does it REALLLY matter?

I also feel the same way about sports and I am from Pittsburgh where they are insane over sports.
Get a pretty girl and football jersey and you can sell a new car---it’s insane.

It pisses you off because I don’t have that asinine passion over silly frivolous things, and that is exactly what this is about, issues that just don‘t matter.…that’s it in a nut shell.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WB2WIK on May 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact Reply
by WC4V on May 28, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
DXpeditions who do not identify at least once per QSO are also guilty. "QRZ?" is not a callsign. I've heard some DXpedition ops run a string of 50 contacts in a row without identifying. To me, the last 49 all wouldn't count.

WB2WIK/6

I'm not sure the regulations of ham radio in other countries, but they may not be required to id after every transmission. If I have been listening to the DX and/or contester for abit, I really don't need him to identify after the contact I make with him. At that point, I already know it!<

::I didn't mean to imply anything about "legality" or FCC regulations. You're right, of course: I don't even know what the regulations are in most other countries, only ours in the U.S.

What I was implying is that in reality a lot of us cannot know for sure if we ever even made a contact with the intended station because of the way they're handled. If a DXpedition ID's once every 50 transmissions and makes 49 contacts in between, everybody who "worked" that station when he did *not* identify can't really be sure who the hell he worked. Just a "WC4V 59" transmission from the DXpedition does not confirm that you hear that report from the DX station. You may have been hearing a guy down the block, or a bootlegger, or anybody -- because the guy who made that transmission didn't identify to let us know who he is.

He may have identified 5 minutes ago, and you recognize his voice-? What if it's on CW, and there's no voice to recognize? Or RTTY? Or PSK?

Anyway, this is my gripe. I certainly don't lose any sleep over it, and I've made hundreds, maybe thousands of "contacts" this way. I just consider them illegitimate and silly, when the "right" was is really no extra work and takes no extra time.

I can work 300 stations an hour, if I identify my station with every single contact. I cannot work "more than that" if I don't.

WB2WIK/6



 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by W3WN on May 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Dan K9ZF said (in part):
"Resistance to change is part of human nature. And, I've found that it seems to increase as we grow older."

But... I thought

Resistance is Futile?

Or was it Reistance is Volts divided by Amps?
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WB2WIK on May 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Nah. Resistance is something your teenage girlfriend pretends to offer when you're in high school.

:-)

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WA2JJH on May 31, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Just wanted to say that Steve(WIK) is a real good person. A real salt of the earth, as well as a consumate operator.

Despite people calling him a CW elitist, I did work Steve on 20M SSB. Yes,SSB!
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by 5R8GQ on May 31, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"DXpeditions who do not identify at least once per QSO are also guilty. "QRZ?" is not a callsign. I've heard some DXpedition ops run a string of 50 contacts in a row without identifying. To me, the last 49 all wouldn't count"

I agree that it is EXTREMELY frustrating for a DX station you are trying to work not to ID, but I would not discount the QSO's made.
1) Not all DX stations can afford voice keyers.
2) Have you ever tried sittings in front of a rig and working a pileup for several hours (hundreds and hundreds of QSO's) and giving your callsign after each contact......without a voice keyer?
I have and it's very tiring. Hell, working a pileup is tiring period, even though it's fun. Fifty QSO's with just "QRZ" is absolutely unacceptable. Three or four is not. Especially when it's 3 AM your time, and the middle of the day for all the stations caling you.
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WA1RNE on May 31, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I agree that it is EXTREMELY frustrating for a DX station you are trying to work not to ID, but I would not discount the QSO's made.

1) Not all DX stations can afford voice keyers.
2) Have you ever tried sittings in front of a rig and working a pileup for several hours (hundreds and hundreds of QSO's) and giving your callsign after each contact......without a voice keyer?


>>> Are you kidding? This is your attempt at some dry Ham-Humor, right? I hope so....if not, the current mindset for amateur DXing is in a sad state of affairs.

Yes, I have sat in front of a rig for several hours on end exchanging call signs - as well as the rest of the exchange. That's what we do.

But for the operators who are so lazy that they find it necessary to abuse their digital voice playback feature, why not just go all the way and let the computer do the receiving and transmitting?

You may has well put away the mic and operate data mode instead.....


....WA1RNE
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by W4DLH on May 31, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Heard on local 2M FM. "Hey Joe Cayman Islands on 50.125.....darn spoting, now my contact is invalid...
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by WA9SVD on June 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
What's a "DX Cluster?"
Am I missing out on something?
 
Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by N9DG on June 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Many of the comments to this article drifted off into the ID'ing (or lack thereof) behavior of stations during Q runs, that really wasn't the subject being discussed. Perhaps I can distill the crux of the intended subject of the article into the form of a question instead.

Which would bother you more?

1. A highly computer/SDR based station that locates all of its workable DX using equipment and means that are *wholly* contained within confines of its location, i.e. a 500M circle. In other does *not* use the internet, or packet radio etc. for DX spotting assistance?

Or?

2. A station that gets much of its information for workable DX via Internet based DX spotting networks, 2M DX alerting repeaters, etc. Or in other words the station is linked to other stations (often non-amateur) means to learn about DX on the bands?

And which station configuration would you believe is closer to the original spirit of amateur radio?

And Why?
 
RE: World's most anal hobby?  
by KI9A on June 5, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K0RS: That might be FUNNIEST reply I have read in any post here...ever!

How true!!!

73- Chuck KI9A
 
RE: Defining a DX or Contest Contact  
by NI0C on June 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I just returned from vacation and read your nice article, Duane. You obviously put a lot of thought into it. The comments concerning "trolling," and "resistance to change," etc. were off the mark.

73,
Chuck NI0C
 
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