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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD

Tom Phillips (AB5ZJ) on March 2, 2008
View comments about this article!

Sunspot Cycle 24 is beginning!

Is your radio up to the challenge?

By: Tom Phillips - AB5ZJ 2/28/08

____________________________________________________________________________________

Some scientists believe sunspot cycle 24 began January 2008, and will peak in late 2011 or 2012. They say it is up to a year later than had been expected. Moreover, they have issued an unprecedented forecast for this new cycle, predicting it will be 30% to 50% stronger than 23 was!

If those scientists are correct, things are REALLY going to liven up on the HF ham bands when cycle 24 reaches its peak years.

Let's face it; we've been in this low cycle 23 drought for so long now, I am sure most of us just can't wait for 24's higher signal levels to begin! I'll wager even those with high gain antennas wish for this, too. No one has been immune to cycle 23's low band conditions.

So now's the time to start thinking about what effect the approaching cycle 24 will have on our day to day ham radio activities, especially as it applies to our own radios, or the ones we might purchase in the future.

As band conditions improve, I see us spending more time in the ham shack. That means QRM will greatly increase with numerous, more closely spaced S9 signals, including those at +20, 30, or even 40 over S9.

It is a certainty that these strong signals will produce more IMD** problems both inside the receiver, and also from the transmitter you are listening to, which is another huge problem in today's Ham Radio design. (Note: there are many good articles on the internet that talk about Transmitter IMD issues you need to familiarize yourself with that's outside the scope of this article.) If you are one of those fortunate enough to own a well designed receiver having high IMD and BDR (specs, it will likely do a much better job eliminating or substantially reducing those internally generated receiver interferences. However, receivers with low IMD** specifications will not fare as well when the bands begin to fill up with lots of strong signals.

Right now you may be asking yourself…. “Is my current receiver, or the one I'm about to purchase, one of those that will not fare well, when the band really opens up, due to a low IMD** spec?”

Well, if you purchased you're radio within the past few years during cycle 23's low levels, you can't really tell how it will do in cycle 24's highs unless you discover what the receiver's IMD** specs are, or have run into problems already. If you are about to purchase a new radio, then it's doubly important to find out what its IMD** spec is. (More about this later)

Having said that, if you are a casual everyday operator, and with a preference for SSB - the IMD** interference we are talking about might not matter. You can choose the times to get on the air, or simply wait till the band dies down a little. On the other hand, if you are seriously into DX, contesting, digital modes, or weak signal work, you don't choose the time, it chooses you. Any IMD** interference produced within your receiver as a result of these very high signal levels on the band could prove to be a show stopper. In that case, you'll definitely want to know how well your receiver is designed, and if it is not that good, maybe there is a mod out there that can help improve it or maybe there's a new radio in your future.

The first thing you should do is familiarize yourself with the technical aspects of receiver IMD** and BDR.** Then look up your radios test scores published by several key independent test labs such as the ARRL, Sherwood Engineering, or technically qualified Hams who have published their own independent tests.

While receiver specs are a significant indicator of good or bad receiver design, there are two important tests to look for; the 2 kHz, 2-tone, third order dynamic range, and the 2 kHz, third order intercept. These highly regarded tests, done in CW mode, indicate how well your radio can reduce multiple strong interfering signals that produce internal IMD** interference, (similar to what is sure to happen during cycle 24) while still permitting you to effectively listen to your target signal.

In the past, the ARRL tested the IMD** with test signals (tones) spaced 5 kHz apart, a broader, less stringent test than the current test which uses signals spaced 2 kHz apart. The more stringent test is used now because many technically competent hams began seeking tighter filtering from third party vendors, or they made their own modifications to obtain better IMD** results. Eventually some radio manufactures began offering better receiver designs, thus raising the IMD** bar.

It is a credit to the technical hams among us who demanded better performance from their receivers that undoubtedly contributed to an Amateur Radio industry wide manufacturing trend toward a more robust receiver design. I suspect this type of entrepreneurial spirit will one day give us receiver performance far above what we now have, and do it for less money. Still, not all receivers are made equal, and most manufactures today do not publish the IMD** specs that would reveal just how well, or how poorly, their receiver is designed.

As your own research will show, the higher these IMD** numbers are, the better your receiver IMD** interference fighting capabilities should be. Once you look at the various receiver data, it will become clear that radios with very low IMD** test scores for a 2 kHz, 2-tone, 3rd order dynamic range of 64 dB for example, will likely become more problematic when dealing with multiple high energy signals during the peaks of sunspot cycle 24. Radios with higher test results, graduating towards 80, should do much better. Radios with very high test results moving towards 90 or higher, should fair the best. (Note: regardless of where we are in a sunspot cycle, poorly designed, tuned and maintained transmitters on the band will also degrade reception.)

Why many manufactures don't publish IMD** specs for their radios is not clear. One possible reason is to cover up a poor or marginal receiver design, which the manufacturer feels safe launching during the low sunspot years, when band conditions won't demand much of the radio's IMD** performance. They also know that most Hams lack the sophisticated test equipment and know-how required to reveal inferior receiver design. As a result, the facts remain hidden.

Since IMD** data is not published, manufacturers often rely heavily on their multi-colored brochures, beautiful pictures and catch phrases such as, “Ultra Strong receiver front end,” or ”High performance receiver design,” in hopes you'll ignore the data's absence and buy the radio for reasons other than performance. To me, there is nothing wrong with doing a little “chest pounding” as long as it is based on fact.

A good trend developing in the ham radio market is that some new radios being introduced have actually added IMD** specs to their performance data! As cycle 24 develops, these radios, in particular, will be worth taking a good hard look at.

If you are one of those who don't usually concern themselves with specifications other than sensitivity, beware. The arrival of strong signals and heavily loaded bands will push receivers to their limits and it will be these conditions that separate the men from the boys as far as receivers are concerned. If you recently purchased your radio but wait unit cycle 24 really gets going to educate yourself about IMD**, you might find yourself owning a possible out of warranty radio that falls far short of the claims made in the manufacturer's outstanding color brochure.

We should all start insisting that manufactures publish a complete set of test data that includes all the important IMD** specs (including transmitter IMD) in their marketing literature, so we can make a better, more informed decision when purchasing.

It's worth noting, however, that lab numbers do not tell the whole story about a radios performance. Depending on your point of view and operating practices, the radio should be easy to use, sound great, and work reliably. As mentioned earlier, if you are a casual operator, like to do mostly SSB rag chew, then a radio with lower IMD numbers could do just fine. For the more intense among us, well……

I'm not usually prone to nightmares but I have a recurring one these days. In that horrible dream I see a strange menacing symbol drift slowly across my vision looking suspiciously like the number…….24.

73

AB5ZJ

**IMD = Inter-Modulation Distortion, and includes IMD DR3 and others for brevity of writing.

References:

1. If you are a member of the ARRL, visit: http://www.arrl.org/ andvisit Reviews.

2. Sherwood Engineering: http://www.sherweng.com/table.html/

3. Latest Sherwood Engineering presentation on "Roofing filters, Transmitted IMD and Receiver Performance" http://www.sherweng.com/documents/Barc2008.pdf

4. On the internet, search for; "ham radio IMD specs," or ham radio spatter"

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KL7AJ on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It's nice to live in a place where IMD is not even a problem during the sunspot peaks. When conditions in the lower 48 are such that there is wall-to-wall QRM, it means we may actually hear SOMETHING up here. Another thing we never worry about is front-to-back ratio of antennas. Forward gain is the only thing that matters. We're at the end of the road and there's nothing behind us. :)

Eric
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by ZENKI on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
What good is owning the worlds best transceiver with high IMD blocking dynamic range when the current batch of modern radios have transmitters whose IMD performance is deteriorating as fast as their receivers are getting better?

The K3 is a case in point, the worlds best receiver yet according to the ARRL it has transmitter IMD performance problems. Is this how you deal with an overcrowded band, your QRM your neighbors off the air and then brag you have the best receiver?

If the current trend continues with radios that have IMD specs that are averaging close to -20dbc you might as well use a crystal set and not shelve out your hard earned cash out on a great receiver!

While the current standards for transmitter performance continues to deterioate we are fast moving towards the ham bands sounding like the CB band. Imagine what it will sound like with 20 meters packed full of stations at the peak of the sunspot cycle with all the bad IMD radios that most of us currently use. There is not one top range radio from any manufacturer that would even meet NTIA/ETSI/ITU/FCC standards for a 100 watt transmitter thats used on HF commercial radio.

Its time for the ham radio service to adopt occupied bandwidth laws much like the marine and NTIA HF services. We would then have set of standards that would define exactly how well the transmitters should perform, that everyone could understand. Likewise its time for the ARRL to update its testing procedures and test transmitters under same testing standards and regime that most commercial transmitters must pass for FCC type acceptance and for HF commercial use. No it does not mean ESSB would be banned, but it would mean that your IMD will have to be suppressed within certain limits as % of your nominal bandwidth to meet the standard even if you are 12khz wide.

There are radios coming that have no IMD problems, and that uses DSP to cancel IMD. You wont even have to use Class A. Adaptive distortion canceling is common in the commercial radio service

http://www.adat.ch/index_e.html

A future ham transceiver!

 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by TANAKASAN on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Europeans may be ahead of the USA here because of the challenge of 40M operation in Europe. We share the band with many high power broadcast stations and that makes operation on 40M after dark an interesting problem to be overcome. If you want to examine a well designed transceiver designed to beat the IMD/IP3 challenge then I can suggest nothing better than the Hilberling PT-8000 series. This rig uses a massive toroid inductor in the preselector which should be impossible to overload. I await the figures from Sherwood Engineering on this rig with interest.

A good transmitted signal is also required and this problem highlights some very strange decisions made by the transceiver manufacturers. Many of them insist on routing the CW transmit signal through the SSB filters when a much better and cleaner signal can be obtained by sending CW through the 500 Hz (or better) CW filter. The only people I know of who do this correctly are Cumbria Designs in their T-1 kit although I am sure that I will be corrected on this point by those who have the schematics of their rigs to hand (and know how to read them).

As my particular area of research is receiver front end design I am looking forward to sunspot cycle 24 and I have three high-IP3 designs ready for testing.

Tanakasan

 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by TUBEGUY on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
My Drake TR7 is up the task,just as it was in cylces 21 & 22 & 23.
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by TUBEGUY on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Excuse me.. "CYCLES" sorry abt that

Best 73 all
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by NI0C on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not sure I agree that the coming sunspot cycle is going to be much of a factor.

Actually, IMD performance is generally much more important on the 160m and 80m bands than on the higher bands, even as sunspot activity increases.

The people who have been demanding better dynamic range and narrower roofing filters in HF transceivers have been the lowband DX enthusiasts. This is because DX signals are almost always very weak, while local QRM is very strong.

When ten meters is open, DX signals will be very strong, while 95% of the people calling them will be inaudible because their signals will skip over you.

73,
Chuck NI0C
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by WW5AA on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The other side of the coin is that conditions on 160/80 meters will be the best ever for the next two years. This morning HI3C was 10 over here and strong DX stations all over the Band! We don't need no stinking sun spots (:-)

73 de Lindy
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W2BLC on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Wonderful - a great forecast. Possibly just as accurate as the annual hurricane forecasts. I am sure gonna base my life on forecasts - NOT!
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by VE3TMT on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Just to be safe Elecraft should donate shiny new K3's to the first ten respondents.

I don't expect to encounter any problems with my TS850. I would rather deal with 30 over signals any day than stations down in the noise.

Max
VE3TMT
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K0BG on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with the comments about transmitter IMD. Perhaps they are marginal out of the box. However, when LIDs insist on using way too much mic gain, 24/7 compression, and all of the add-on audio processing, it isn't going to matter much what the manufacturers do.

I also agree we need some sort of band width limitations. Yet, the ARRL and others still support the use of AM and other wide-band modes.

Amateur radio is, after all, a communications service, not a broadcast service, and appropriate band width limitations should apply.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W8JI on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I don't think the increasing problem relates entirely to the sunspot cycle. It has been going on some time now. The problem shows up with close signal spacing or crowded bands, especially when the bands are quiet.

I can't speak for Europe, but in the USA the problem isn't front ends. They have been cured long ago.

Many receivers have fantastic specs outside the passband of the roofing filter and have had great specs for years. The real problem is after the first mixer, often very late in the IF system. For example Yaesu, year after year after year, kept making a mistake by allowing the first amplifier of the noise blanker to run wide open whether the NB was being used or not. This deteriorated everything inside the passband of the roofing filter.

Had the ARRL changed to a requirement to test INSIDE the BW of the roofing filter that problem would have been caught years ago.

A second issue is DSP system that are used to determine the main selectivity. Typical amateur equipment systems lack the ability to compete with crystal or mechanical filters when dealing with close spaced performance.

Then we get into computer radios, which have great close spaced performance but lack the extreme dynamic ranges at wide spacings because they lack filters.

The question is how much all of this matters when no one pays attention to transmitters or amplifiers. It won't do any good to have a good radio when some fool is using an RM Italy amplifier or some other solid state 12 V amplifier or using a radio with horrible transmitter performance, or brings the CB mentality of bumping up the power by dicking around with power controls inside the radio. Transmitters and amplifiers are already a major limitation.

73 Tom







 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N3JBH on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Tom you’re starting to make some of us nervous here. You seem to have genitalia on the mind Male genitalia at that. I mean come on first it was goat testicles. And now dicking around? Ok Just Kidding sorry . N3JBH
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W4VR on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Yes indeed! And, as more and more hams buy solid state amplifiers, an inevitable solution to hard-to-find tube amplfiers in the future, you will find many more broad signals on the bands. Notwithstanding the fact that the IMD on SS amps is greater than with tube amps, when they are slightly overdriven they go hog-wild, even with properly connected ALC circuits. Put these SS amps into the hands of appliance operators and you're going to hear these guys +/-5 kHz. Forget the good old days of being able to operate 3 kHz away from an existing QSO.

A note on Sunspot activity. I ran across an interesting article in the January 12 edition of Canada's Financial Post, that we may not see very many sunspots during this solar cycle. The article correlates this with a possible period of global cooling. Stay tuned!
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N2KFC on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Tom,W8JI wrote:
"Then we get into computer radios, which have great close spaced performance but lack the extreme dynamic ranges at wide spacings because they lack filters. "

Tom,what is your definition of " extreme dynamic ranges at wide spacings " ???

73!
John
N2KFC,SP2GGZ,YB1AQ,
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K1DA on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Did the "Big Three" (or four or five) PAY to have this piece written or is it a case of "the radio sky is falling"?
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N0AH on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
2 years ago, they predicted the meanest hurricane season on record- flopped.


 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W5ESE on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> As band conditions improve, I see us spending
> more time in the ham shack. That means QRM
> will greatly increase with numerous, more
> closely spaced S9 signals, including those at
> +20, 30, or even 40 over S9.

I disagree with the entire premise of this article.

As it is now, during major contests, everyone piles
into 20 meters during the daytime, because of poor
conditions on 15m and 10m.

In the future, conditions will improve on 15m and
10m, and amateurs will be able to spend more time
productively on those wavelengths.

So the level of QRM will decrease, as everyone will
be more spread out.

73
Scott
W5ESE
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AA4PB on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
When signals on the band are very strong just turn down the RF gain or switch in an attenuator (that's why they put them there). Of course that assumes you aren't trying to pull out an S1 signal from among the 40dB/9 signals. Still, its better than waiting for the sun spots to deteriorate again :)

The bottom line is that the average ham isn't going to have much difficulty with Cycle 24 if he knows how to operate his receiver. For most it will be a non-issue.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KF4HR on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Receiver IMD issues during cycle 24? As MUF increases there's typically plenty enough room for everyone. Many of us that have been around for awhile have been through several cycles, long before current IMD technology existed - and we've somehow managed to survive sun spot cycle peaks. I think we'll be fine on cycle 24 too.

Heck, more importantly, how can we educate a few bad operators not to fire up their SSB rigs one khz away from an on-going QSO or NET? Or operators that run split and sweep their transmit VFO up and down the band without first listening to see if they're about to cause interference. Or idiotic LIDS that cause interference on purpose. A receiver with the best IMD specs on the planet aren't going to fix these problems.

KF4HR
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W7ETA on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Well done Tom.

Thanks for a useful article.

73
Bob
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AE6RO on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think Cycle 24 will be one of the worst on record. From the ham's point of view of course.
In any event it probably won't peak until 2011 and receivers can change quite a bit by then.
Also, I was reading "Low Band DX-ing" and it said that modern receivers aren't as good as some of the older ones for 80 and 160. Of course he didn't mean ARC-5s but more modern solid state jobs.
By the way, does anyone know what Barry Goldwater's callsign was? Or if Mr. John McCain is a ham (radio operator?) After all, it's Mr. Goldwater's seat in the Senate that he currently holds. 73 all, John
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AE6RO on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Never mind. I Yahoo'd it and found out Barry Goldwater's callsigns were K3UIG and K7UGA. Also he was active in MARS and interested in extraterrestrials.
I'll bet that this sunspot cycle will have the lowest SSN since the Maunder Minimum. 73 John
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N3JBH on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Yes John McCain is a ham..

http://www.qrz.com/callsign/KH6GY
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by G0GQK on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The facts of the matter are that the scientists have no more idea than the mutt you take out for a walk every day what the propagation will be like in three years time. Half say it will huge, the other half say lousy. Some folks buy HD televions, the latest must have, but no HD transmissions are being made, won't be long now before they're persuading you to throw out that old FT940 because we've got the best tranceiver for the new super duper best ever cycle that's coming to your neighbourhood.

G0GQK
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W4VR on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To add more fuel to the fire about the potential for a lousy cycle 24, below is an abstract of an article written by a couple of British scientists employed by the University of Southhampton and the Natural Environmental Research Council. NOAA scientists are also split concerning the sunspot maximums for cycle 24 and beyond.

"We use a model for sunspot number using low-frequency solar oscillations, with periods 22, 53, 88, 106, 213, and 420 years modulating the 11-year Schwabe cycle, to predict the peak sunspot number of cycle 24 and for future cycles, including the period around 2100 A.D. We extend the earlier work of Damon and Jirikowic (1992) by adding a further long-period component of 420 years. Typically, the standard deviation between the model and the peak sunspot number in each solar cycle from 1750 to 1970 is ±34. The peak sunspot prediction for cycles 21, 22, and 23 agree with the observed sunspot activity levels within the error estimate. Our peak sunspot prediction for cycle 24 is significantly smaller than cycle 23, with peak sunspot numbers predicted to be 42 ± 34. These predictions suggest that a period of quiet solar activity is expected, lasting until 2030, with less disruption to satellite orbits, satellite lifetimes, and power distribution grids and lower risk of spacecraft failures and radiation dose to astronauts. Our model also predicts a recovery during the middle of the century to more typical solar activity cycles with peak sunspot numbers around 120. Eventually, the superposition of the minimum phase of the 105- and 420-year cycles just after 2100 leads to another period of significantly quieter solar conditions. This lends some support to the prediction of low solar activity in 2100 made by Clilverd et al. (2003)."
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AE6RO on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I guess I should have said, Mr. John S. McCain, presumptive Republican Presidential nominee. The other gentleman, John C. McCain is indeed a ham.
73 and tnx, John
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AE6RO on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The only difference I can see is a low sunspot count doesn't equate to a quiet Sun.
Good propagation mainly depends on sunspots but no sunspots doesn't guarantee freedom from coronal mass ejections and other interesting effects that might wreak havoc on satellites and terrestrial communication.
If the Sun isn't making sunspots then there is more energy available for other stuff. Like coronal mass ejections, coronal holes etc. Heh, heh. 73, John
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by WB2WIK on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Cycle 19 was a huge peak, most hams were using AM with 50+ year-old technology for receivers. My older ham buddies tell me using 40's vintage Super Skyriders was the in thing. Signals were strong, and cross modulation was a common problem. I understand it was still more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

I look forward to the higher bands being so open that strong signal overloading becomes a problem!

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AB5ZJ on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I can assure you this article was written by me, myself, and I. The words are my own thoughts based on research, study, contemplation, experimentation, and the love for my hobby. And I enjoy sharing the outcome of these efforts with others to comment on, even those who dissagree.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K6AER on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The large dynamic range numbers being presented in the latest crop of radios such as the Orian II, Flex 5000 and the latest king of the hill, the K3 at 101 dB at 2 KHz spacing, will be just fine at the peak or bottom of the sunspot cycle. For that matter most of the older radios will be just fine also.

The problem is with these wide dynamic ranges we see in the lab is they don’t translate into real world conditions. A good noise floor on 20 meters is -110 dBm. When you have over 100 dB of dynamic range in the lab with a test noise floor of -130 dBm this is unrealistic. As soon as you connect the transceiver to the antenna 20 dB of you bottom dynamic range has gone out the window for the typical atmospheric noise level is at least -110 dBm on a good day. In the summer with thunderstorms it can be much worse.

When the band is bad all the signals are down. When the band is good all the signals are way up. On any given band, the typical day has the range of signals covering about 40 dB of dynamic range. This range just slides up or down the scale depending on conditions.

Far more important is the receiver ability to handle noise bursts and the action of the AGC and its reaction to strong adjacent signals. Today on 20 meters, due to the contest, the noise floor was at best -85 dBm. Their were signals every 1.5 KHz. The ability of the receiver to handle front end overload and its ability to recover from front end bashing of 10,000 watt EIRP signals was of much more use.

Far more important is your antenna. With a good beam your front to back ratio and front to side ratio will help far more than the receiver you spent the extra $3000-5000 for the 10 dB of dynamic range that only can be scene in the lab.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N2KFC on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K6AER wrote:
"The large dynamic range numbers being presented in the latest crop of radios such as the Orian II, Flex 5000 and the latest king of the hill, the K3 at 101 dB at 2 KHz spacing, will be just fine at the peak or bottom of the sunspot cycle. For that matter most of the older radios will be just fine also"

TEN-TEC ORION II and FLEX RADIO 5000 will outperform K3 at close spacing "hands down" !!!
ELECRAFT K3 is very seriously phase noise limited at 2kHz and smaller spacing...101 dB at 2kHz was taken with 200Hz FILTER !!!
ORION and FLEX 5000 were tested at 500Hz !!!
This is like to compare apples and oranges!!!Just magic!!!He!He!He!

73!
John,N2KFC,SP2GGZ,YB1AQV,
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W8JI on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
That's not true K6AER for a number of reasons.

First, the noise floor gets lower with narrower selectivity while signal power does not. It also is reduced by directional antennas, and it varies from location to location.

My FT1000's barely get into the noise floor at my QTH on 20 meters on CW selectivity, let alone on higher bands. The Orion as shipped didn't even come close to reaching noise floor here, but that is just an AGC adjustment. Still it barely had any headroom over noise floor. It takes full gain of the FT1000's to hear the noise come up on an antenna at my QTH on 20 and higher, and even on 40 during the daytime on CW.

A 80-85dB CLOSE spaced dynamic range is marginal here. OK on SSB, but not on CW.

Another thing you are missing is the lab test is a two-tone test. The dynamic range of more signals is worse and worse as more signals are added to the mix. This is why a receiver with constant dynamic range over narrow and wide bandwidths is so poor. The wider the bandwidth the more unwanted signals creep into the passband prior to the selectivity, and the more TWO TONE dynamic range is required.

The power of each unwanted signal adds and robs each stage in the receiver of the available power. The two-tone test only considers two signals and no other signals on the band anywhere. We cannot directly translate a two-tone test into a real band because the real band almost always has more than two signals.

Imagine how many signals there are if the front end is untuned, or if there is no roofing filter!

73 Tom
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N7YA on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You know what? Even if the coming cycle is 30 to 50% WORSE, it will still be better than it is right now and i will be happy with it....because the atmosphere doesnt read all of our lamenting on these message boards. And it may seem bad, but i went back through my logs over the last 4-5 years, and ive worked some great DX with minimal antenna and an out of date rig...i have nothing to complain about, yes im ready! Were all ready, we all just tend to overthink things on here.

And the K3 is a fine rig...but every rig has its downside, there is no perfect anything, all you can hope for is getting as close to perfect for your personal tastes as you can, and the K3 is just fine. Great rx, but i dont think a 100 watt K3 is going to blow out anyone elses qso, otherwise, the guys on VP6DX couldnt operate 2 different modes on the same band. Yes, im still impressed by this.

Im absolutely looking forward to the next cycle, the last one was killer! And even if you have a crude tuna-tin qrp rig, you will get results from ANY cycle peak...but i wont lie, im not buying it but i sure hope this prediction is correct, boy that would be a party!

73...Adam, N7YA
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K5UJ on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It must be nice to lead a life in which you have to come up with things that have not and may not happen, in order to have something to worry about. Maybe some day I'll get to this promised land.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K6AER on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Tom,

You are right about the noise floor being much lower in the CW mode. I should have referenced that for my observations are in the SSB mode for that is where I spend most of my operating time. I know you are a huge proponent of a three tone test and I agree with your position but you and I will be very old men by the time the ARRL comes to that method of testing.

You are correct that the mix possibilities are a function of the number of signals that get past the first mixer filtering. It is correct that with each doubling of signals in the pass band the IMD numbers will be reduced by three dB. This is true for all active amplifier stages and I guess for comparison purposes the folks who do testing have to embrace some conscious method. Imperfect as two tone testing is I guess as long if the same method is applied to each receiver we have some comparison number.

Many hams need to pay attention to their antenna system and how much rejection the antenna is providing of out of band signals. In a multi band environment the LPA can present a lot of out of desired band energy on a receiver front end. The LC band pass filtering being offered in many high end transceivers is just not enough. Mono band antennas have always been desired as the best performance antenna in a high signal environment followed by additional front end LC filters.

As another posting had stated that the K3 dynamic range test taken at 200 Hz and that is an apples and oranges comparison. The ARRL test was taken with a 400 Hz filter and the Sherwood test was taken with a 200 Hz filter but given that we are looking at a signal a 2 KHz away not much is gained with the much narrower filter. The 2 KHz signal is still much removed from the K3 filter pass band. As a result both test were within 1 dB of each other and at these levels extrapolation of the signal levels can vary more than a dB.

The Flex 5000 does not have any roofing filters for the signal IF is presented directly to the A/D converters and processed by the host computer. The Flex 5000 reading was taken with the DSP set to 500 Hz but that is not the same as a 500 Hz roofing filter.

Yes the K3 test was phase noise limited but when you get to two tone IMD 101-102 dB (2KHz spacing) of dynamic range the phase noise of the LO oscillator will be the limiting factor. That is just a fact of life. If the IMD numbers were much lower due to IF distortions or poor filtering, the LO phase noise would not be a factor as the reduction of dynamic range would be a factor of some other limiting design or component flaw.

It will be a rare day when we are not making contacts due to the phase noise contributions in today’s high end radios.

 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W1EBR on March 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think that the FT-950 fixed this problem, if it is the problem where the NB was not turned off completely due to the transistor configuration - I looked and the problem that was in the FT-2000 does not appear to be in the FT-950. Is this what you are referring to, or is there something else I should check?

Thanks!
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W4LGH on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
IMD is IMD, and a lot of people make a big deal out of it. If someone (a a lot of people do) runs a dirty
station, there isn't a receiver in the world that will clean it up. Garbage out, garbage in! So there is not much one can do with this problem.

More important is knowing how to operate, both in transmit and receive modes. Your skills in hearing the signal you want, knowing what to do with your radio, etc., far out weight what your IMD specs are.
Anyone can sit back and talk to 9+ signals all day long...the fun is going to be working those signals that are no way strong, but are sitting next to someone with a 9+ signal.

Like someone said earlier, the Drake TR7 is 30+ years old and worked well in the previous hi sunspot cycles,
so why shouldn't anything made in the past 5 years be up to the challenge as well?

IMD and 3dr are way over rated, and really can't be detected by the human ear. It looks good on hitech test equipment, and there comes a point when you ear will NOT know the difference.

Bring #24 on...I have been waiting for it!!!!

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com

 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N3OX on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"IMD and 3dr are way over rated, and really can't be detected by the human ear. It looks good on hitech test equipment, and there comes a point when you ear will NOT know the difference.
"

The people +/-10kHz from the center of your passband that can still HEAR you even with good receivers know the difference ;-)
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AK2B on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Yes, we’re in the arm pit of cycle 23. Days without sunspots, days without DX and days without hearing hardly anyone – that is, until a contest weekend or a DXpedition! All of a sudden it is wall to wall signals. All of a sudden 15 meters is open – even 10 sometimes. I think my radio has been thoroughly tested - even now. While cycle 24 will no doubt open the higher bands for longer periods and produce more signals and tend to spread everyone out over the upper frequencies, there has been ample opportunities in recent weeks to test the metal of your present rig.

Regarding the K3. As far as I’m concerned, Elecraft did a very clever thing by marketing the K3 as a modular, no-solder kit. For $1400 you can buy an excellent bare bones transceiver with a 2.8 KHz roofing filter. At a price $100 more than an IC-7000, you have a top rated radio with one of the best receivers around. In my case, I ordered the radio early on expecting a June delivery, then August, then December. A normal person would have gotten mad and pulled their deposit. Not me. As the months went by I kept ordering little doodads (and paying while I ordered) figuring I wasn’t laying out all that cash at once. By the time the K3 arrived, it was fully loaded - or at least, loaded with what I wanted.

Tom, AK2B
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W8JI on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

I'm afraid you much not understand the meaning of IM3 DR.

IM3DR is the point where two strong signals generate a third spurious product that IS strong enough to mask the weakest signal. The ratio between the two strong signals to the weak on is the dynamic range. So by definition you MUST be able to hear the IM or it does not count.

Even more important that is a best case test. It is only two signals and it is the threshold. As the signals get stronger the IM increases at an ever more rapidly increasing rate, so very rapidly the interference gets worse. It also gets worse with more signals in the passband before the overloaded stage.

It is a very real effect that is easily heard.

The same is true for transmitter odd-order IMD. I can hear IM from a typical IC706 or FT100 compact radio being operated normally about 10kHz away from the radio when the signal is S9 plus 20dB. It is strong enough to disturb weak signals.

Some solid state amplifiers, like the cheap 12V types, have garbage 20kHz or more away that causes interference.

Any claim we can't hear the IM or that IMDR is unimportant is totally false.

73 Tom


 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KL7AJ on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Tom:

This is one area where a WELL DESIGNED direct conversion receiver can show EXCELLENT performance. We built an array of direct conversion receivers for ionospheric research at HIPAS Observatory. We were looking for SEE...Stimulated Elecromagnetic Emission...an auroral phenomonenon where very weak sidebands are naturally generated just a few hertz from a high powered R.F. (multi-megawatt) CW carrier. There isn't much in Amateur radio operations that would put anything like this kind of demand on a receiver.

Both Harris and Rokwell/Collins make scientific grade DC receivers now, just for this sort of thing, and I'm sure some other manufacturers will be following suit as the wonders of DC receivers come to light.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by G3RZP on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It is no use having superb IMD performance in the receiver if the phase noise performance doesn't match it. A 10dB NF rx with an SSB bandwidth has a noise floor of about -130dBm. If it has a +20dBm Third Order Intercept Point, the instantaneous intermodulation limited dynamic range is 100dB. To use this, the phase noise needs to be 100dB plus 10log the IF bandwidth dBc down, or about -134dBc/Hz.

For measurements taken at sunspot maximum and sunspot minimum, see the March/April edition of NCJ. These measurments suggest that at least in Europe, the AVERAGE station needs about 95 to 100 dB of dynamic range, and an antenna attenuator can be very useful.

Blocking Dynamic Range can be misleading, since it can sometimes mean gain compression, and sometimes reciprocal mixing limitations. 'Dynamic Range' as a term has about as many different meanings as a politicians promise!
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KL7AJ on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
ZP:

This is, of course, an excellent point. Just as an interesting sidelight, when we were doing the SEE experiments, we were very conscious of phase noise. One way we got around it (aside from using VERY high quality, low phase-noise H.P. signal generators to start with) was that we used the same generator for our transmitter oscillator as for our DC receiver local oscillator. This way, any possible phase noise was cancelled out...or at least made irrelevant.

The real beauty of a DC receiver is that you only have to worry about ONE oscillator. You can concentrate on making that one oscillator superb...rather than trying to do it to four or five!

Eric
 
SEE  
by KL7AJ on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Some SEE stuff. You can see why you need good dynamic range!


http://www.physics.irfu.se/SEE/


Eric
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K8AC on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
After many years of operating, I got my intro to what real IMD generated in the receiver sounds like in last fall's CW SS. When I returned from an extended vacation, my IC-781 wouldn't power up, so I picked up a new IC-756 Pro III, knowing that IMD could be a problem. It showed up in spades on both 80 and 20 CW when the bands were the most crowded with strong signals. If I listened to a weak signal using a CW bandwidth (350 or 500 Hz for me), I could also hear a lot of what I can only describe as "garbage". It was random portions of dots and dashes, not related to the signal I was listening to, or others in the passband. I can best describe it as the sound you hear if you slowly pour a bit of broken windshield glass into a garbage can - lots of brief tinkles and very random.

Contrary to what most think, it wasn't the end of the world, and cranking in 12 dB of attenuation on 80 or 20 ended the extraneous sounds. I don't believe having the attenuator in cost me a contact on either band. If I had been trying to hear 3Y0X on 160 or 80 with a huge pileup of constant callers, that added attenuation may have made the difference between copy and no copy. It's nice to have such a precise measurement for comparing various receivers, but the fact is that the bigger difference lies in the skill of the operator.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by NC0B on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Splatter on SSB during the ARRL SSB DX contest was an obvious problem on 15 meters. The signal density was not nearly as high as on 20, where the splatter would often be buried by adjacent signals. I could work 3 kHz from some very strong stations 15 meters, while others were so dirty I had to keep at least 10 kHz away. Operational error was likely involved with these really wide signals.

The specs today of most 12-volt PAs are much worse than tube finals in the past, but ALC-induced splatter is a real problem, too. My 706MkIIG splatters if I more than “tickle” the ALC. For some reason the League chooses not make dynamic tests for splatter using voice, only steady-state two-tone tests. The two-tone information is useful, but not the whole story.

My newest Power Point post at www.nc0b.com shows the IMD of a Collins 32S-3, and then compares it to the ARRL data for the FT-450. Last weekend I tweaked the bias a bit on the S-Line, and the IMD improved even more over what is in the spectrum analyzer screen shot. The high-order products from the 6146s are much better than most solid-state rigs by as much as 20 dB. An even cleaner transmitter is the FT-1000 Mk V in class A. It is cleaner than the Collins in the important 5th – 9th order products.

The dynamic range of a radio is a constant that can be moved around with the attenuator. If band noise is really -110 dBm, and the noise floor of the radio is -130 dBm, you do not necessarily give up 20 dB of dynamic range. Simply turn on the attenuator to reduce the external noise and signals to place them more optimally within the dynamic-range “window” of the radio.

If band noise goes up significantly when the antenna is connected, the radio noise floor is not the limit. During the recent 160 meter CQ SSB contest, my noise level was S7 with no attenuator (or preamp), and S2 with 10 dB of attenuation. There was a bit less “crud” between signals with the attenuator enabled, and I gave up nothing in weak-signal detection. On the other hand, I cannot imagine wanting to run an attenuator on 15 meters.

As another post clearly described, CW IMD overload produces random blips of signals that go on and off in no meaningful way. A 6, 10 or 12 dB attenuator would have been useful in this case.

My web site lists the IMD DR3 of the K3 as 101 dB @ 2 kHz with the 200-Hz 5-pole roofing filter. With the 500-Hz, 5-pole it measured 95 dB. I have not yet measured the radio with the 400 or 250-Hz 8-pole roofing filters. As mentioned above, the League’s reading with the 400-Hz 8-pole was within 1 dB of my 200-Hz 5-pole data. At some point, however, we are splitting hairs. Radios with an IMD DR3 @ 2 kHz of 95 dB or greater will not be a limiting factor very often.

There are other limitations to the ability to copy next to a very strong signal. As mentioned above, on SSB IMD products on the adjacent signal are definitely an issue, even without ALC-induced splatter. On CW we are much better off, but a CW “dit” or “dah” has a bandwidth. The rise/fall time of the “dit” is an issue, as well as the keying speed. With a conservative rise time of 10 msec, a CW signal at 70 dB below the carrier has a bandwidth of around +/- 700 Hz as measured on a K3 with an Omni-VII as the transmitter. So if you get close enough to a very clean, very strong signal, the eventual limit will be the sidebands of the signal, even on CW.

The top few transceivers now perform so well on receive , from a dynamic-range standpoint, that other factors will likely tip the balance as to which model one wishes to choose.

73, Rob Sherwood, NC0B
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KC7OTG on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I see the TenTec was measured with a 300Hz filter on the Sherwood page. Also the 400Hz filter was used in the ARRL report and it was stated that there is only a 1dB difference between use of the 400Hz 8 pole filter and the 500Hz 5-pole filter.

I still think the K3 is going to win here but honestly all three radios are beyond the capabilities needed for current conditions. Granted using loop based antennas using H field receive is going to help cut the noise floor a bit but with dynamic ranges where these radios are the dynamic range is going to put the signal that could "could" hear below the band noise floor anyway.

This is why once you own one of these radios you don't have to own another radio no matter how much they beat their specs by as it doesn't really matter.

As far as TX IMD I'm a bit concerned about the numbers on the K3 but in truth the rig does 30dB if you use the internal 2 tone reference. It only falls off a bit more when you use an externally generated 2-tone. Wayne has stated that this is indicative of a problem in the firmware and he's certain that he'll be able to make a correction to help improve this. I find it impressive that they are on the problem and have promised to look into and improvement. Not only are they saying it can be fixed but by the comments made by Wayne in the areas of voice output for punch and the IMD type stuff he seems literally excited to dig in and see where improvements can be made there.

I see Elecraft as my generations Heathkit and I thank my lucky stars that they are working as hard as they are to help me learn and enjoy the hobby. I can assure you that the TX in the K3 was not built as it is to introduce more QRM and sell more K3's.

Could amateur radio deal with tighter requirements on TX purity sure. But I think that amateur radio is losing a lot more with the loss of the requirement of CW for licensing than it is with TX purity problems. The K3 wasn't 20dB in that regard either it was 27 and thats at ABSOLUTE worst case! Granted thats not that wonderful and no I'm not proud of that part of it but its not that bad in comparison to the rest of the radios on the market. I can assure you that I'll be keeping my K3 once I take shipment for quite some time! I LOVE my K1!!!!! I'll probably be getting a K2 as well just to keep the family together (and cause I want to build one).
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KC7OTG on March 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Many radios could have two on the same band at the same time with the band pass filters they were using. Granted the K3 is a phenomenal rig but its not going to defy the laws of physics.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N2KFC on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Rob Sherwood, NC0B wrote:
"My web site lists the IMD DR3 of the K3 as 101 dB @ 2 kHz with the 200-Hz 5-pole roofing filter. With the 500-Hz, 5-pole it measured 95 dB. "

Rob...thank you for info...now we know that ELECRAFT K3 has 95dB @2kHz with the 500Hz filter.Now,maybe you can correct your list???

73!
John,N2KFC,SP2GGZ,YB1AQV,
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by G3RZP on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
NC0B said:
"My web site lists the IMD DR3 of the K3 as 101 dB @ 2 kHz with the 200-Hz 5-pole roofing filter. With the 500-Hz, 5-pole it measured 95 dB. "

To use that, the rx phase noise at 2kHz needs to be better than -124dBc/Hz. Preferably about -130dBc/Hz.

The NC0B comments on dynamic range align very closely with my measurements, which is more than somewhat pleasing.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N2KFC on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Peter G3RZP wrote:

"The NC0B comments on dynamic range align very closely with my measurements, which is more than somewhat pleasing. "

Peter...thank you for the info...now we are back to the REALITY !!!

73!
John,N2KFC,SP2GGZ,YB1AQV,
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W7VP on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Tom
Thanks for the very informative article and the technically competent responses it has produced.

Whether or not you are right regarding Cycle 24, the implications associated with equipment development are significant. Even more significant, though, is hte misunderstanding and, in some cases, intentional misinformation regarding equipment limitations.

In the FT-2000, forum, for example, the limitations of the FT-2000 IMD numbers were initially rejected by a large group of members with virtually no significant expertise. Later, when the numbers were solidly established, the tone changed to "well it really doesn't make any difference," thus confirming the paltry findings regarding the FT-2000.

To make matters worse, this same limited expertise group continues to promote the very thing that some here on this site have condemned, that is, the creation of adverse transmitted IMD. In the case of the limited expertise crowd that continues to be accomplished by promoting ESSB. Bragadocio and mutual balckslapping are also the hallmark of this unfortunate forum where even Rob Sherwood was demeaned and slandered and anyone having a qualified technical opinion can expect a particularly unquallified group to go on a vicious attack.

It is interesting to compare the quality of the comments on the IC-756 Pro III forum where the bitterness of the FT-2000 forum is absent and the technical quality of the participants is significantly better.

73
Bill
W7VP



 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AA1IK on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I am eager as the next guy for the sunspot number to rise and bring good operating conditions with it.

Crowded bands will be a welcomed problem to have after this very, very long drought of signals.

The problem with crowded bands is not so much IMD but poor operating practice.

Please, please, P-L-E-A-S-E, take the time to zero beat the called station!!

Zero beating the called station makes a big difference. Here is an example!
I received an answer to my CQ and replied with a 229 RST, but after the first round I tuned him in and, wow, a 589 RST signal was being sent.

The problem, he did not zero beat my CQ signal when he answered me.

Unfortunately this happens a lot.

Here are a few ways to insure you are zero beat.
1. If you have a rig that has a CW rev key, tune the signal using normal CW, hit the CW rev, if the sound does not change pitch, you are dead on.
2. Some rigs have a key that activates a tone that can be used to match the pitch of the transmitted signal. It is called by different names by various manufacturers. Learn how it works.
3. Mix W has a scope that you can use to zero beat the received signal and be dead on.
4. Train your ear to listen to the pitch of your transmitted CW signal, and match it to the received signal.
If I am not using Mix W for logging, I like the REV CW key method best.

I get close as I can to the incoming signal by listening, then fine tune it using the CW REV key.

Zero beating an incoming signal eliminates trying to copy down in the mud signals that should be much stronger.

Let’s try to revive this lost art!

De AA1IK
Alpha, Alpha, One, India, Kilo, Not Lima Kilo, due to lousy fonts.

Ernie Gregoire
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AK2B on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
AA1IK
Since you are already using MixW, you can put a marker(Configure/Markers) at whatever offset you're using (600Hz?). Using the spectrum display, you can instantly see someone calling off freq and zero him with RIT. Zero beating on a lot of rigs is not all that easy for some people.

Tom, AK2B
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W5VIN on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Bill, W7VP:
The FT-2 Kaput yahoo forum taught me an important lesson in life. Sometime it's best to kick your own can down the street and do testing for ones self. Share zero knowledge as responses can run the gamot from sane to ridiculous. Sell the radio and find a forum for some rig where operators exchange information on a friendly informative basis as you propose.
Tom, W8JI is also very correct in his comments about multiple signals being amplified in a receiver along with the signal of interest. This dithering out of power has a profound effect on this desired signal. Perhaps from this multitude one can pick the signal of interest and label the gadget a translator. I did some experimental work on a VHF translator once. 73
Charlie W5VIN
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W9OY on March 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
<The top few transceivers now perform so well on receive , from a dynamic-range standpoint, that other factors will likely tip the balance as to which model one wishes to choose.

73, Rob Sherwood, NC0B >

This is the most insightful comment I read in this series.

73 W9OY
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by RFEXPERT on March 5, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Now all we need from Elecraft is a new PA design for the K3 that delivers excellent IMD performance.

I would be very happy to throw my current PA in the bin if Elecraft designed something new. Maybe a 50 or 100 volt FET amp. I would also be even more happy if it was an external AMP with 200 watts of output power. Low drive AMPS are now allowed under the new FCC rules.

How did the FT-950 achieve such excellent 2 tone IMD numbers from 12 volt devices? Maybe the figures were incorrect in the QST review.?

Since everything about the K3 is firmware driven maybe Elecraft can offer a Class A option. The Flexradio has class A bias for their radios. I could easily drive my tetrode in passive grid with 20 watts of Class A power.

If Elecraft had the best transmitter specs as well as its current chart topping best receiver, I would order 8 more of them today. This radio is just so marvelous on receive, its a shame the transmitter is so close to being marginal. I just wanted to brag and say to my fellow Icom 7800 zealot buddies that I have the best receiver and transmitter in the world, i am 50% there!
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W8JI on March 5, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Whether you notice or not will always vary with the application, the test only shows the limits and how things actually compare.

If you have small antennas, a noisy location, only operate at times of low activity, work wide modes like SSB, and only work strong stations or weak stations clear of strong stations, nothing really matters except how the radio makes you feel.

If you work weak signals, use narrow modes, operate on crowded bands, and have a quiet location then the tests (including transmitter purity of the OTHER station) matter a great deal.

Some people could use FM and a super regen and not care much, while others can easily notice problems. It's all about the way the user operates.

73 Tom
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W7VP on March 5, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
When Rob says "The top few perform so well on receive..." note that he lists only four rigs with more than 90 dbs of Dynamic Range with the next jump to 85. There are some very notable newer rigs that cannot be classed in that category, including the FT-2000 which is clear down at 63. Even the Pro III, which is an incredibley good rig, is only listed at 75. Nevertheless some manufacturers (Elecraft, Flex, Omni) are achieving some very good results so there is hope for the future as long as efforts to widen SSB further and failure to deal with transmitted IMD are dealt with properly.

73
]Bill
W7VP
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by STRAIGHTKEY on March 5, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
How soon until we see "Cycle 24 Capable Transceivers" being marketed? :-)
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K0ZL on March 5, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Not much word about TRANSMITTER IMD, other than a mention of bias adjustment on the Collins.

I service ham gear for a living and almost every transceiver I get in my shop needs adjustment to the driver and PA bias. Most are not far off; some are obviously "part of the problem" as far as bandwidth issues are concerned.

Note, this procedure does NOT apply to FET finals; see your service manual if you have FETS in the PA or driver stages.

To set your rig's transmitter stage bias, get a copy of the service manual. Get access to and identify the bias adjustment(s) in your rig's PA stage. Use a good digital ammeter (0-10.00 amps range). Put it in series with the (+) lead of your rig; hook up to dummy load, SSB, mic gain at zero. Check your rig's resting TX current and write it down.

Carefully turn one of the bias pots so that the current read by your digimeter goes DOWN. Careful; some pots want to go clockwise, some want to go CCW. Turn that stage all the way down. Now note the new current; subtract from the original and that will give you what you WERE running for the driver or PA stage idle current. Do the same for the other stage.

Now, slowly increase the bias current for each stage, in turn, until the meter indicates an INCREASE as listed in your service manual (for the TS-850 for example, it's +200mA and +200mA above the minimum).

Let the setting stabilize for a few seconds and re-tweak as needed, so that the transistor bias is set for a WARM device, not a cold one.

Guaranteed that you will note an improvement on your TX IMD after you reset your PA and driver bias.

How to check IMD easily? Next post!

73, K0ZL
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K0ZL on March 5, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
So how do we check our transmitter IMD without expensive analyzers and such?

Here is a "poor man's" IMD checker! It's only relative but can be used for before and after comparison of adjustments, amplifier issues, etc.

Get a friend a few miles away that can hear you on a fairly decent HF rig, near enough so that propagation is not an issue. All they need to do is be able to hear your signal at about S9. They also need to shut off their noise blanker.

Transmit in upper or lower sideband, processor off, just tickling the ALC meter; have your friend check you on frequency; now have him or her switch to the opposite sideband. Provided that they are running a rig newer than the Yaesu 101 or 901 series, they will be receiving your third order distortion products, if you are running normal SSB bandwidth on TX (not wideband SSB).

There should be a pretty good ratio between your desired sideband, and the "unwanted" sideband. I usually see something better than S9 to S3 ratio after bias adjustments. Then you can kick on your amp; have then crank in their attenuator(s) and give you another reading. If it's about the same, your amp is not contributing too much to your transmit IMD.

They can also tune up and down away from your signal; if you are S9 "on channel", you should be nearly gone 5 khz either way.

Using a controlled test like this will help you sort the "wheat from the chaff" when getting on-air reports from other hams, solicited or not!

73, K0ZL
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KL7AJ on March 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K8AC:

My first (and worst) taste of this sort of IMD was when I was visiting a shack in Connecticut. My host had a Kenwood TS850, which was REALLY an expensive rig in around 1988. This guy was really proud of the thing, but it was the worst piece of excrement I ever operated, at least on the receive end. EVERY CW station on the band generated what sounded like bad key clicks all up and down the dial. I don't think I could have intentionally created a worse IMD generating device. I can only imagine what the TRANSMITTER was like.

We weren't even under heavy QRM. Anyway, the experience totally turned me off to any Kenwood radios. My Yaesu FT-901 DM is wonderful in this regard.

eric
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by K6AER on March 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You can not check your IMD quality by listening to your lower sidebands. Transmitter IMD is a function of the amplifier chain distortion and has nothing to do with your lower sideband filtering. Upper to lower sideband ratio is a function of your IF pass band filtering.

You can not also get a feel of you IMD by listening to the on frequency audio. Audio can sound fine but you can have distortion products 40 dB down for carrier peak and when running an amplifier with a big beam you sideband IMD products can place markers at S8 up and down the band.

You also cannot check IMD with a trapezoid pattern on a RF scope. The Oscilloscope pattern can look very linear but your IMD can be as poor as 23 dB and you still have a nice straight trapezoid.

The only way to view transmitter audio SSB IMD is with a two tone source (such as a 700 and 1900 Hz) and a spectrum analyzer.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by KL7AJ on March 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
AER:

Lacking a spectrum analyzer, you can, with a bit of experience, see IMD with an oscilloscope with a 2 tone test. (You can also see carrier leakage and such too.)

 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by ZENKI on March 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Well in most cases 2 tone IMD numbers mean very little when you are using a transmitter under voice peak conditions.

It is far better just to plug your transmitter into a directional coupler and then connect it to a good receiver. You then can hear and measure how good or bad your transmitter is at 5,10,15 and 20khz signal spacings.

The average radio like a Icom 706 probably measures about 50 to 60db down at 20khz, which is very poor. If I was going to use 2 tone IMD figures I would use the 11th order products as a indicator for stellar transmitter performance. A good commercial SSB transmitter would have its 11th order products down at least 70 to 80db.

A very good transmitter should have its IMD products suppressed under voice conditions to at least 100 db at 20khz spacing.

Most spectrum analyzers dont have sufficient dynamic range or sweep speed to detect IMD under voice conditions. Not the ones that most hams can buy anyhow. A Flexradio 5000 would make an excellent spectrum analyzer for IMD checks. Thats what I use and it compares very well with my very expensive HP/Agilent analyzer at work with a 100db of on screen dynamic range.



Zenki
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by WA0LYK on March 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>K6AER on March 6, 2008
>You can not check your IMD quality by listening to your
>lower sidebands. Transmitter IMD is a function of the
>amplifier chain distortion and has nothing to do with
>your lower sideband filtering. Upper to lower sideband
>ratio is a function of your IF pass band filtering.

This isn't exactly true. You can listen for the "splatter" caused by IMD by listening on the opposite sideband for a rudimentary test. You need to make sure the IMD is from the transmitter however and not your receiver. Keep in mind this is only a gross check and your IMD would be very bad if splatter is detectable.

If when you switch to the opposite sideband, you can still demodulate the voice, then you might also have a filter problem in the transmitter.

Jim
WA0LYK
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AB9PZ on March 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>>>>by KL7AJ: It's nice to live in a place where IMD is not even a problem during the sunspot peaks. When conditions in the lower 48 are such that there is wall-to-wall QRM, it means we may actually hear SOMETHING up here. Another thing we never worry about is front-to-back ratio of antennas. Forward gain is the only thing that matters. We're at the end of the road and there's nothing behind us. :) Eric>>>>


Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit, guys....but I've been wondering if Eric or other guys up there have some information to share about working with the Aurora. I think it would be a very interesting post to read. OK, back to sunspots and IMD.

Best,

Brad
AB9PZ

 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by W4ZV on March 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Sunspot Cycle 24 is beginning!
Is your radio up to the challenge?"

Interesting comments but IMD requirements don't have much to do with solar cycles. IMD has to do with the difference between the strongest signals and weakest signals presented to your receiver by your antenna system. I've experienced IMD at the peak of the last cycle on 10 meters and also at the cycle low on 160 meters. On 10m some European signals were S9+50 into a 3-stack of 6 element Yagis during the cycle peak. On 160m US signals one hop away or locals within a few miles can also produce such signals into large TX antennas or even RX antennas (during any stage of the solar cycle).

If your antenna system is marginal, IMD will probably never be an issue for you.
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by AB5ZJ on March 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You all are correct in mentioning marginal antennas. There are lots of them out there. And you all are correct to say that high gain antennas do pick up very high level signals during even the low cycle periods.

But a large number of Hams only have dipoles, verticals, or smaller yagis with little gain to work with. I would venture to say that this is the norm if a poll was taken today.

At my QTH I have a multi band vertical that has almost no gain, yet does a decent job picking up signals even as far away as Russia during the past low periods.

However, during the low cycle periods past, the average signal strenghts across the band almost never gets larger than S3, with an ocasional S9+10, even on 160, 80 and 40m. The noise on those bands is usually at S7 and S9. Almost never, is three, let alone two, stations at that same strenght appearing simultainiously and close together such that it would reveal any IMD in my receiver. When we are in the peak cyle periods, I know I will hear many more consistantly high level signals close together that will exceed S9+20 or 30db, (as was the case in high cycle periods past). This is the area where receiver IMD issues will be revealed to the rest of us during the peak years, especially if we have low IMD numbers as I describe in the article. My article focuses mainly on receiver IMD issues, and breifly points out transmitter IMD issues, giving references to that at the end of the article. Transmitter IMD issues, of course, deserve an article all by iteself, and Rob Sherwood created a presentation about this which I placed a link to in the reference section at the end of the article.

I want to thank everyone who commented on my article. If found the comments comprised of many diverse views both informative, and thought provoking.

Be sure to check out the references I listed, especially Robs presentation.

73
Tom - AB5ZJ
 
Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N7WS on March 21, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I actually discovered this thread by reading the Elecraft reflector a few minutes ago and I haven't waded through all of the comments in detail, but I do have some thoughts. Furthermore, this is certainly no reflection (no pun intended) on the K3, since I will buy one as soon as I can get one in a week or two after ordering. (That may never happen).

Coincidentally, I read the K3 review in QST yesterday before going to our local DX club. The program was by some friends from up the road who are members of the Voodoo DX group. They all happen to use, and are delighted with, K2s. I asked whether they would consider K3s and they said no, they're too big.

Nevertheless, after the presentation some discussion about radios came up and I was discussing the abysmal transmit IMD reported in the QST review with a fellow club member and I mentioned to him that I had been thinking of a test method that would provide a real figure of merit re: IMD performance. A "composite" test as it were.

Rather than using two signal generators that are pure as the driven snow for two-tone receiver IMD testing, my method would use the transmitters of two more of whatever is under test as the two tones.

What could be fairer than this? Now if a manufacturer wants to claim 100 dB two-tone dynamic range, they'll have to insure that their transmitters are clean enough to make this possible.

(Offered only slightly tongue-in-cheek)
 
RE: Sunspot Cycle 24 and IMD  
by N2KFC on March 21, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N7WS wrote:
"What could be fairer than this? Now if a manufacturer wants to claim 100 dB two-tone dynamic range, they'll have to insure that their transmitters are clean enough to make this possible. "

Wesley...you got this so right,very interesting idea !!!

73!
John,N2KFC,SP2GGZ,YB1AQV,
 
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