Honda Wiring
Fred Atkinson (WB4AEJ)
on
March 30, 2008
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I am using a cigarette lighter plug to connect my Kenwood TM-V7A to power in my Honda. The reason I insist on doing it that way is that it makes it easy for me to move my radio from vehicle to vehicle as long as the next vehicle has a cigarette lighter plug to get power from. The magnetic mount antenna coupled with this makes it easy.
Lately, I have been getting a lot of complaints about the amount of ignition noise on my signal. A few days ago, I inspected the cigarette lighter plug's wiring. I'm not sure of the exact gauge, but I am sure that it isn't much bigger than doorbell wire. The cigarette lighter plug is labeled as providing ten amps. I think I see an engineering problem here. Don't you?
So I rolled into a new car stereo shop. There were a couple of Korean men there and I asked them about the possibility of running number twelve wire from my battery to the cigarette lighter plug in my dash. Of course, they put a fuse near the battery for this circuit. They used that plastic tubing to protect the wire. And what they charged me wasn't much of anything considering the fine job they did.
I know that many of you will say 'You are a ham so why didn't you run the wire yourself?' Well, I am a very big guy and my crawling under the dashboard in a Honda Civic is not something that would be practical.
Before departing their lot, I made contact with Duane, WB2YAD in Suwannee, GA and asked him to assist me with a test. He monitored my signal and I pulled out onto the street and accelerated to the speed limit of forty-five miles per hour.
Duane reported that the little bit of ignition noise he did hear he would not have noticed if I hadn't told him to look for it. I suspect he turned up the audio gain on his receiver to hear that. A number of other folks in the area who previously heard my ignition noise (which a number of folks said it competed with my voice in volume,) now say that my audio is sounding really good.
So if you are going the cigarette lighter plug route in your car, you might want to find out what gauge of wire your automobile's manufacturer used when they wired your cigarette lighter. I remember when they were fused at twenty amps. The rating on the one Honda put in my Civic is only ten amps.
73, and happy mobiling
Fred, WB4AEJ
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Honda Wiring
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by N1ZLE on March 30, 2008
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Good information. I used much of the information from http://k0bg.com/ to eliminate noise from my 2003 Jeep Wrangler and Yaesu FT857D installation. With my Jeep the rule of thumb was "too many rf / ferrite chokes was just enough"
73
N1ZLE
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Honda Wiring
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by KZ1X on March 30, 2008
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I agree that using this type connector can be convenient. May I suggest a slight modification, which would maintain that convenience benefit and still yield an improvement when operating in your own vehicle?
The cigarette lighter plug and socket were not designed with concern for significant voltage drop. In fact, if you look at it, it's SUPPOSED to have a lot of I^2R drop! Your radio, however, *does* care about that.
For your daily-use car, simply add in a pigtail that appears in a convenient spot, terminated in an Anderson PowerPole connector.
Put the same connector on the radio.
Now, your radio has the ability to plug into the many thousands of other similarly-equipped power connections used by hams everywhere.
Then, make a 'interconnect' plug with a cigarette lighter male fitting on one end of a short wire, and the PowerPole on the other end. Bring this 'adapter' with you when you are portable. You can then plug into any available cigarette lighter, in a pinch, and get the PowerPole you want for the radio.
I've been doing this for several years now. I am always surprised by the comments of others when they see this, words such as 'clever' are voiced, but I don't think it's very clever at all, just common sense. Still others maintain there's a market for such things, but not when you can make your own cheaply. Of course, mine are done with the correct crimp tool, employ a top-grade cigarette lighter plug, use the correct gauge of red/black zip cord, and are finished with 3M heat shrink, so they are durable and look nice.
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Honda Wiring
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by W4VR on March 30, 2008
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I used an accessory 12-Volt jack on a 1999 Suburban for years to power my 100-watt HF radio and never had the problems you describe. I'm surprised they don't put a similar jack in Honda vehicles.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by K0BG on March 30, 2008
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There are a lot of very dangerous practices being used by amateurs, mobile and otherwise. Statements like, "I've been doing this for years and never had a problem", do not justify any poor practice.
The facts are, a vehicle wiring fire is one of the most expensive repairs you can imagine, and it takes weeks, not days to fix. While the circuits in question are designed to handle 10 amps, as pointed out above, the voltage drop is very significant; in the order of 2.5 volts, perhaps more.
The accessory socket wire size used in all Honda products is size 16. the only one I'm aware of that uses a bigger size, is Toyota's power take off in their big trucks, and the connection isn't a cigarette socket either.
What's difficult for me to understand is why there is ignition RFI on the transmitted signal, even if it is powered by the accessory socket. About the only time this occurs is when there is a ground loop. The biggest cause of ground loops in mobile installations, is when the antenna is improperly mounted; such as a mag mount, or trunk lip mount.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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by KD5SFK on March 30, 2008
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Did you run a single, positive wire from the battery to the cigarette lighter plug, using the chassis as the ground, or did you run both positive and ground wires from the battery to the plug?
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Honda Wiring
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by KC8ZEV on March 30, 2008
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I agree with Alan, K0BG, I smell a grounding problem here. Best place to start is the antenna..............mag mounts and lip mounts often are the culprit. Of course, there is no shortcut for hefty wiring to the battery. Improving the antenna ground can never hurt the situation.............unless you have to drill a hole in that big $$$$$ vehicle you are motoring around in!!
Usually it is more emotional trauma than physical trauma. Time and QSOs heal all wounds!!
73
KC8ZEV
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Honda Wiring
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by W4KPA on March 30, 2008
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If I were you, I'd go back to the stereo shop and have those two guys run a number 10 wire from the battery to a convenient location in the passenger compartment. You already know what the cost of that would be. Then, I'd have somebody crimp on a pair of 40 amp Powerpole connectors. I'd put Powerpole connectors on the radio.
For use in other vehicles, I'd make up a pigtail with Powerpoles on one end and a cigarette lighter plug on the other.
I also think you can find somewhere on the Civic to mount a permanent antenna that will be well grounded without doing too much surgery to the vehicle.
Save your mag mount and the cigarette lighter plug for vehicles you don't use much. But, even then, I'd keep the power level on the radio down fairly low. I agree with Alan that even if the rig seems to run off the 10-amp line, you're courting trouble trying to squeeze 50 watts out of the lighter socket.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by KF4KQI on March 30, 2008
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Hmm, so we have a article to read about a ham who went to a car stereo shop to have his cigarette lighter plug beefed up so he can run his 2 meter rig off of it.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by AC7NA on March 30, 2008
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I agree w/ Alan. I cringe when I hear of hams using a lighter plug and mag-mount to pwr a high power mobile xcvr. This arrangemnt should only be considered an "emergency only" option IMHO.
If vehicle to vehicle portability is what you want, it's hard to beat a HT and speaker mike securely mounted in a mobile mount specifically designed for handhelds. With a "filtered" lighter plug adapter to boost pwr to a full 5-6W and the standard rubber duckie, you should be able to hit most, if not all local repeaters...and you'll have your HT wherever you go.
I used this setup for years because the XYL would not allow me to mount a whip on her vehicle. I installed a brick amp and a permanent antenna in my own car and never had want for anything more.
I do commend the author for seeking professional help to beef up his supply...say what you want, but stereo installers know all the tricks in routing cable in todays newer vehicles. Don't dismiss them as a resource for routing cable in difficult situations.
Brian AC7NA
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by K9GLN on March 30, 2008
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Ok I see there are as usual sarcastic replies. I have three Honda's. 2001 Accord, 2006 Ridgeline and 2007 C-RV. They do not have "cigarette lighters". They are power supplies rated 10 amps. In my Ridgeline I use the DC power supply which is in the rear seat area supply powering the FT7800 located along the rear of the cabin. In the Accord I ran a #10 wire back to the trunk, but it was a long hair pulling process.
I challange anyone to try and get a wire through the firewall on the Honda Ridgeline CR-V or Accord. You need to grab power from inside the center console and route it back. They are nightmares.
Previously having a Chevy Tahoe and Silverado I was able to get power w/o any problem, but the Honda is a tighter design.
Here is a usefull site for Honda owners. IT shows detailed diagrams on how to get power primarily for Stereo.
http://www.handa-accessories.com/accord.html
Quite honestly the next time, I will go to Best Buy and pay them to put in a rear power block. They know the tricks and do it all day long. Rather than break some dash component, I'll pay them 30-50 bucks and save the aggravation.
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2002 Honda Accord wiring
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by AB0RE on March 30, 2008
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I own a 2002 Honda Accord. After a little looking around I found the perfect way to bring power inside the vehicle. Just above the gas pedal is a little "trap door" in the rubber-backed carpet. Pop that open and you'll see a plastic knock-out block. Take out the plastic knock-out block and replace it with a firewall bushing from Street Wires.
(See pic at http://www.streetwires.com/products/default.aspx?grp=19 The firewall is too thick to use the middle nut but the grommet works fine without the middle nut in place. These bushings are available at Crutchfield for ~$10 - http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=FB4&i=211FB4)
The 4ga bushing was a perfect fit for the hole in the firewall. I ran the #4 to my trunk where my radios and subwoofer amp are. For the ground I used an existing bolt that goes to the chassis of the vehicle near the trunk. Yes, I know this is unacceptable for the purists who insist on running ground all the way to the battery as well, but I felt it was a fair trade off. If you don't need #4 you could probably pass a pair of #10 or possibly #8 through the hole in the firewall into the passenger compartment.
73,
Dan / ab0re
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by K0BG on March 30, 2008
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Glenn, you're on! If you would have ask, I would have pointed you to the exact spot to bring wires into the cabin of any Honda product. I drive a Ridgeline myself, and I didn't have any problems whatsoever. Or my wife's Civic either.
In fact, the wiring troughs in most Hondas are large enough to pass a pair of #2 welding cables through if that's what you wanted to do.
My 7000, an SG500, and second battery are all located in the trunk of my Ridgeline. It is possible to pull the left bed panel and run wires through an existing spare grommet. The problem aries getting into the trunk. You could pull the bed floor, but there is barely enough room to feed an RG58 through. As a result, I opted to run the wires under the chassis, and through the front part of the trunk.
Lastly, you may think it sarcastic to comment on a very poor wiring practice, but the fact remains, it is not the correct way to wire an amateur transceiver; the fact you've managed to get by with it over the years notwithstanding.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by K6AER on March 30, 2008
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I have read this post several times and I believe you did not ignition noise but what you had was alternator wine. By running a dedicated power wire the biggest capacitor in the vehicle, the battery, you eliminated the alternator wine that is placed on the general vehicle wiring.
Cigarette lighters are generally run from the vehicle fuse block and as a result are part and parcel of the vehicle wiring ground return system and ground loops are the result. If you run the radio ground back to the battery be sure you fuse the ground side so if you lose your engine ground return the starter will not use your radio ground as a high amperage round return.
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Honda Wiring
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by KB9YUR on March 30, 2008
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Here's another consideration. Whenever I take my Yaesu
FT290RII in the wifes car, I bring along a portable
battery pack like the Nomad 300 from www.solarsense.com
and run the radio from it. When I'm done, the Nomad 300
gets charged from the solar panels at home. No ignition
noise, potential problems with car wiring or other
related issues.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by N6AJR on March 30, 2008
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Mfj makes a deal that hangs on the window and you roll it up. it is a mfj-310 I believe. you put your rubber duck on this and hang it over the window and roll it up and the 7 foot cord hooks to your ht ( or radio) it gets the antenna up and much more secure than a mag mount. also try running a ground from the neg battery post to the chassis.
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Honda Wiring
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by KI4ZTP on March 30, 2008
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I have been installing ham and 11 meter radios for a long time, and installing car audio even longer, and I just can't get over how difficult people make wiring out to be. All you have to do is just pull the carpet back somewhere under the dash, drill a hole in the firewall, stick in a grommet, and run your wire through it. Small hole for small wire, large hole for large wire. I have used everything from fingernail polish to primer to keep the hole from rusting. If you ever remove the wire, all you have to do is buy a rubber plug from the hardware store. If you make it look clean, they won't even notice it if you turn in a lease vehicle. Ground the radio off to about anything bolted to the body or screw a ring terminal down somewhere. The lighter socket is a horrible source to power anything other than a GPS or cell phone charger. I just can't get over how people insist on running high current electronics off of it. Just my $0.02.
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Honda Wiring
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by N3JJT on March 31, 2008
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Hi Fred....I believe KZ1X said it best, run power straight from your battery and terminate with power poles. I also have both negative and positive leads fused at the battery. Also placed clamp around style ferrites on both leads as well, and have not had any problems. I have all of my 12 volt rigs wired with power poles, and all my power supplies have a power pole pigtail. Some of my friends do the same. It then makes it a very easy swap from vehicle to vehicle or vehicle to house! Have Fun!
73...Scott...N3JJT
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by WA4SCA on March 31, 2008
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Something else to try is the power seat wiring which almost all cars have today, even if you did not get a power seat. It is typically fuse for 20 amps, and is not switched. Tests on a Honda and two Fords show it is clean power. You can usually find it under the driver's seat, and use one of several types of taps on it. You might not want to transmit at high power while also moving the seat, but but I have never heard any noise generated by it on my TM-V7A.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by AD4U on March 31, 2008
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"You are a HAM, so why didn't you run the wire yourself".
I have been a HAM for 40 years. I am comfortable trouble shooting and building amplifiers with HV up to 6000 volts. I am comfortable installing and climbing 100+ foot towers. I am comfortable working in and around the typical residential 240 volt 200 amp breaker box. I am comfortable working in and around the 480 / 240 volt three phase power in my busniess.
I am NOT comfortable messing in new cars with air bags and the associated sensors and wiring.
If I have learned anything in my 40 years as a HAM, it is to work within my comfort level and to leave it to "others" when I am not within my comfort level. A smart HAM (and a live HAM) is often a HAM who knows the difference.
Dick AD4U
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by QRZDXR2 on March 31, 2008
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Hams are helpless. This guy on ebay is poking fun of the new hams. He must be a older ham. His humor ranks right up their with this article ???
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-VIBROPLEX-CHAMPION-RADIO-TELEGRAPH-KEY-1952-BUG_W0QQitemZ220216170077QQihZ012QQcategoryZ48706QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
goes to show the ARRL has achieved its goals
come on its a wire.
Best watch the ground side too with all the motors making noise. I am still scratching my head at why the author wants to change a existing wire when he can run two of them with less trouble. Leaving the vehicle un-changed.
I know lets re-invent the wheel too.
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RE: Jeep Wiring
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by K4MLB on March 31, 2008
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Would you share some of the details on your wrangler
I never got mine quiet and I've been trying for years.
Chokes and bonding the chassis parts with strap didnt seem to help much, maybe a little below 20M. Maybe you know where the magic choke goes.
Thanks
George
atomant@earthlink.net
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Honda Wiring
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by K1CJS on March 31, 2008
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Quite a few of the 'Japanese' cars have very fine wiring as compared to 'American' cars. I was asked to fix the front parking lights on my neighbors Toyota the other day, and I was surprized to find wiring I wouldn't use for a single bulb running to the lighting sockets. Taking a guess, I would say the wire was the equivalent of 20 gauge wire.
Even though the wiring on 'American' cars is heavier, I still wouldn't run a 2 meter rig off it. Running wires directly to the battery is still the best and safest way to get power for any ham radio--making sure those wires are fused at the battery, of course.
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RE: Jeep Wiring
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by N1ZLE on March 31, 2008
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I copper taped the entire coil pack, put in new resistor plugs, rf/ferrite choked all the injector lead-in wiring, strapped the engine to the frame with 1" copper braid on both sides of the block, grounded the exhaust pipe to the frame in two places, ground braided the bottom of the ATAS 100 directly to the body, frame and exhaust, and used double shielded LMR240 coax. The most difficult part and the culprit on 90% of the noise was rf / ferrite choking the fuel pump wiring at the tank. This has been an ongoing project for the last yr or so. The wiper motor has been choked at the motor case, and did improve the level of wiper motor noise.
I'm happy with the noise reduction I've experienced
Good Luck
n1zle
73
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by W4VR on March 31, 2008
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For those that question the use of a power outlet (not a cigarette lighter outlet) for occasional HF SSB Mobile use, the power outlets in my old 99 Suburban were rated at 20 amps as I recall and I doubt GM would use wire rated at less than 20 amps for these outlets. For someone intending to operate HF SSB mobile every day for hours at a time, a more secure connection to the battery terminals would be suggested. It appears, after reading this thread, that some of the foreign-made vehicles have 12-volt power outlets that are not designed to power much more than a cell phone, and should not be used to power ham radio equipment.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by KF4HR on March 31, 2008
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You are probably nearing or exceeding the current limit of your Honda's cigarette lighter circuit (with rig on high power). If I remember correctly Kenwood states that rigs draws ~11 amps on high power VHF. Also figure the wiring that feeds that cigarette lighter socket is probably bundled with many other unshielded wires that may be routing near your alternator.
You didn't mention if you need to swap your radio between 'your vehicles' or others (rentals, etc).
Assuming the vehicles you wish to swap your radio between are owned by you, I suggest running at least a stranded 12 gage pair of wires from up under the dash, through the firewall and terminate the power cable at your battery terminals (wires should be fused close to the battery). And when routing the cabling around the engine compartment, try and keep it away from your car's wiring harness as much as possible. Particularly try and stay away from the alternator.
Then utilize Power Poles, or some other type of quick disconnect connectors inside your vehicle. Do this with each of your vehicles and you'll find it's easy to swap the radio from car to car.
I've run a lot of FM gear in Honda products and the above power line situation has always resulted in a clean transmit signal for me, but if your noise problem persists, Kenwood sells a power line Noise Filter to can add to your positive lead as well.
KF4HR
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Honda Wiring
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by WA3SKN on April 1, 2008
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As you have discovered, there are different standards for "house wiring" vs "automotive wiring"!
The 15 amp for 14 gauge and 20 amp for 12 gauge wire are based on an increase in temperature of the wire of 30 degrees Celsius in a 60 second period. For automotive wiring it is 100 degrees Celsius increase in a 60 second period!
Of course, you can just use a lower power setting for your radio, but drawing 10+ amps via the cigarette lighter is a bad idea! You DON'T want to overheat the wiring harness in your automobile. They normally use 16-18 gauge wire for the cigarette lighter... and it is designed for intermittent use.
Bottom line, it is best to run both power and ground wire directly to the battery, and large enough so you can feel OK with the planned power draw!
73s.
-Mike.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by WI7B on April 1, 2008
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Anderson PowerPoles(tm) are great and versatile for interconnecting many supplies to many radio, but in my travels, THE universal power connector is the lowly cigarette lighter adapter.
The cigarette lighter adapter is useable in every country in the world, in the most remote regions of the world (Australian outback to Artic tundra), and usually at its rated 12V.
While Anderson PowerPoles(tm) will work wonders in the world of hamdom, the cigarette lighter adapter works in the world at large.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by N5JYK on April 1, 2008
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Good one Fred!
Back in the mid 90's I did something similar in an
80-something civic to run an HT. Then one day a nice
mobile fell into my lap and, without thinking about it
much, powered it from the lighter for a few days. Just
for fun I tried high power a couple of times but the
voltage drop was too much.
After pulling #12 from the battery, my audio had
alternator whine. That's right, my signal was cleaner
running from the lighter socket. But in my case it was
an issue with the mag-mount (Alan mentioned this) and
a ground loop. I switched to a through-the-body antenna
mount and everything was great.
All that said, and remembering the cautions mentioned
by the experienced folks posting here, do whatever
works for you.
73
-Brandon
-N5JYK
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by W1GOR on April 1, 2008
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Hondas are available with several options... An ash-tray AND Lighter, or no ash-tray and a 12 volt accessory power outlet that looks like a lighter socket, but heavier construction. As a benefit, the space that would have been occupied by the ash-tray is replaced by a handy, small cubby hole...
73, Larry - W1GOR
2004 Honda CR-V
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Honda Wiring
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by AI4DG on April 2, 2008
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For stuff where I'm jumping in and out of vehicles that aren't mine, I have a mobile radio power rig that I've used for years. It's a tee connection that puts a 4 amp-hour gel cell battery in parallel with the cigarette lighter plug. On transmit, if there's enough voltage drop on the cigarette lighter plug, the gel cell provides most of the power. Then it recharges while receiving. The gel cell should also help reduce any AC noise on the power. It's sort of like a big, slow, power capacitor.
I really need to get one of those DC power conditioner things that can take a roughly 12v source and output a solid 13.8v, which is also useful when you're running from only battery power.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by K1CJS on April 4, 2008
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"I really need to get one of those DC power conditioner things that can take a roughly 12v source and output a solid 13.8v, which is also useful when you're running from only battery power."
The same cautions would apply when using one of these. One thing not too often realized is that to push the voltage up, those units draw more amperage--the power has to come from somewhere--so you may be 'way overtaxing the cigarette lighter socket and wiring.
Just some food for thought.
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by K1CJS on April 7, 2008
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On the lighter side--I thought, when I first saw this, that the solution was easy--get rid of the Honda! I know, its just my 'buy an American brand car' prejudice showing. ;-)
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by K0KN on April 8, 2008
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Recently, I decided to outfit my 91 Saturn SL1 with a couple of radios, and Anderson Powerpole was the best, most affordable solution I could think of.
I ran two sets of #8 AWG to the passenger compartment to operate my EF Johnson 900 MHz rig, and the second pair can easily accomodate my 706 or any other transceiver I own.
I found that a Powerpole connector will mount nicely to a hardware store L-bracket. It was pretty easy to find a spot that I could attach the bracket, and then secure the two pairs of Powerpoles.
I ran #6 AWG to a car-stereo type power distribution block in the trunk to supply my dual band 2m/440 mobile, and allow for future expansion.
All lines are fused at the battery using an auto-parts store ATO fuse block that will accept up to 6 circuits, and each line has a dedicated ground wire direct to the battery.
I used the 'Cadillac' style side-post bolts and spacers to connect the extra cables to my battery. These bolts are longer than standard side-post bolts , and will accept several additional ring connectors.
I used a 2 AWG cable from the battery positive to fuse block. Keep in mind when making these large battery cables that the cheap, plastic insulated crimp-type wire connectors aren't what you want or need. Ask your auto parts store for the large copper crimp/solder ring terminals. I paid about $1.50 for two. Use a vice to crimp these on your wire, and propane torch to solder.
I haven't measured the voltage drop yet, but I'm sure that it's not worth worrying about!
73,
Kyle
K0KN
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RE: Honda Wiring
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by WB4AEJ on April 12, 2008
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>On the lighter side--I thought, when I first saw
>this, that the solution was easy--get rid of the
>Honda! I know, its just my 'buy an American brand
>car' prejudice showing. ;-)
I don't consider that much of an option. I've had three new American cars (two Ford Mustangs and a Chevy Cavalier) and I had a bunch of heartache with all three of them. The first Mustang was the best of the three after I finally showed the dealer how to fix the problem (he couldn't identify it nor could the factory guy) with my car shutting off while I was driving down the road. And there were a bunch of other problems I managed to finally get fixed just as the warranty expired. After many weeks of taking the car back to the dealer several times per week, we finally got it straightened out. Each of my next two American cars were progressively downhill from the first one.
Lay it on the Big Three. Their poor quality for so many years is the reason everyone started buying foreign cars. Remember that none of them were interested in Juran and Deming's programs until those two taught them to the Japanese which turned their manufacturing around completely and overan us. Only after they started falling behind did they take quality seriously. Even so, I am so put off by my three American cars that I would probably not buy another one manufactured by U.S. car makers.
I've since had two Hondas. I still have the second one. I've been very pleased with both. The only problem I've had with the current one is the ignition noise problem, which I had fixed.
It will probably be another generation or two before they could restore consumer confidence and really start to recover from the damage they did their reputations for weak quality.
Regards,
Fred, WB4AEJ
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