Contesting in Ham Radio
Calvin P. Darula (K0DXC)
on
May 12, 2008
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In the 3 years I’ve been a ham the thing I find the most joy in is operating in a contest.
I am not the only one, MANY hams run contests. It would be a safe assumption that most hams have either participated in a contest, or thought about it. I know some hams who only participate in contests.
Contests can provide many things to hams. They can help with awards, test your equipment to its fullest, and help with your operating skills. Operating in a contest can be a very easy way to complete awards, the North American QSO Party or NAQP is a fine way to help with your Worked All States award (W.A.S.). The NAQP is a very popular contest and normally all the states are on the air during the contest. The CQ World Wide DX contest or ARRL DX contest can help with your DXCC, unless you are a top notch DXer with over 300 countries worked it is hard to operate in a contest and not pick up a few new countries. There are many contests out there, it would be hard not to find one you are interested in.
It is very easy to get into a contest. It doesn’t matter what your station consists of, I simply run an IC-706 and a 6BTV and I have scored nicely in some contests. Some people think that you have to operate the full contest period to do well. That is not true, I live with my parents (I’m 13 years old) and I have trouble finding time, you can operate as much or as little as you want. Family and work (school work in my case) comes before the radio. The main key to doing well is the want to do well. Where there's a will, there's a way. Another thing to keep in mind is to have fun; some contests only come around once a year and it is important to enjoy them.
There are a few key things to consider when entering a contest….
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Know your propagation - The week before the contest check out the bands you plan on operating on to help with your operating strategy. Noticing when the band is open to Europe and Africa could be vital in a DX contest.
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Know your equipment- If you are running a modest station and know that you won't be able to hold a "run" frequency near the bottom of the band where all the big guns hang out, don't try to. You will simply waste your time and decrease your Q rate. Unfortunately, some hams don't always abide by the "always be courteous" rule.
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Know the contest - If you are going to put out a serious effort a nice way to help yourself out is by looking at the results of previous years for the contest you are going to be entering. By doing this you can pick a category that maybe there either weren’t as many entries in, or that you feel capable of winning. This provides an easier way of possibly winning an award or certificate. It is also nice to check the rules over a few extra times just to make sure you don’t forget them.
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Be Courteous! - It is no fun to operate in a contest if you have a lid waiting for you whenever you call CQ. Always make sure the frequency is not in use before you call CQ TEST.
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Have fun- There is no joy in contests unless you enjoy them, make sure to have a good time.
There is a serious side to contesting, and a fun side. I find great joy in working hams that I already know in contests. It is fun to hear a familiar call in the pileups, and it is also fun to meet or hear new people. There are some people that you can always count on hearing in contests; some people are in my log 20+ times just from contests!
Another nice thing is you don’t have to worry about not finding a contest that you like. There are some contests with categories in any mode or power level, and you can even enter using a single band in some of them. Don’t want to operate in anything huge? Some people enjoy entering in stateside QSO parties which are very fun, but not wall to wall like some of the DX contests. Want something with a high activity level? Try a DX contest like the ARRL DX or one of the North American QSO parties. There is a contest out there to suit your style.
That's about it. Thanks for taking the time for reading this and I hope to hear you in one of the upcoming "tests".
73,
-Cal, K0DXC, 13 years old
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W4BQF on May 12, 2008
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Great post Cal! I think you have found the right attitude about contest also...make sure it is FUN! I've been hamming for over 50 yrs and contesting is one of the FUN things to do in this hobby, that has kept me in it. I don't think I have ever won a contest but every one I've gotten into, I've done so with the intent of winning!
A lot of hams would rather sit back and complain about contesting, but thats OK also, simply because there sure is no rule that everyone has to have at least a little competative spirit in them. Plus contesting is just ONE of the fun things we can do in this hobby.
Good luck Cal and keep up that spirit!
Tom - W4BQF
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KB2DHG on May 12, 2008
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Contesting can be fun and surly a way to get a lot of ground covered... I have tried many contest in my time as a HAM but to tell you the truth, making a contact and giving a signal report is not as much fun as having a nice long QSO and conversation...
I do enjoy some contest mostly in the CW modes...
But the bottom line is this hobby affords us many different avenues of fun so keep doing what makes YOU happy... I am just happy that this hobby is thriving...
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K5BZH on May 12, 2008
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I have been a ham since the summer of 1955, was first licensed as KN5BZH. Was 11 years of age.
There are many paths one can take in our hobby. I agree, contesting is a lot of fun, and as you point out, one can make some decent scores without the gold plated radios and super beams.
My contesting interest developed about 4 years ago when I entered a contest for a few hours to see how well my new GAP Eagle DX vertical worked. During the event I worked something like 34 countries. Man, I was hooked!!
Like you, I work a lot of the same folks throughout the year in the various events. I have found most contesters to be pretty nice people.
Best of DX to you in the future months, may the sunspots be good to you.
73,
Jim, K5BZH
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KC8CXZ on May 12, 2008
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Excellent post Cal! Thanks for sharing!
I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding contesting. I think it's a lot of fun, first and foremost. I don't operate to win (casual op here), since i'm only running 100 watts and a vertical, but I am able to make lots of good, solid contacts and be heard. That to me, is priceless! I have more of a chance to work many DX stations, or new grid squares (6 meters), during contests than in many other instances or scenarios. Contests 'level the playing field' for the majority of us 'little guns' running lower powered, basic setups. It is just one of the many different aspects of Ham Radio that make this incredible hobby/service what it is!!!
73, Jim
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KF4HR on May 12, 2008
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Contesting is certainly one aspect of the hobby, and I agree many enjoy the activity. And contests seem to bring people out of the woodwork that would perhaps not be on the air otherwise, which is great if you're looking for a 5 second qso exchange.
But of the approximately 3/4 of a million US amateurs, what percentage do you think actually participates in contesting? Assuming the contest paperwork submissions are any indicator (yes, obviously some do not submit their documentation and/or only partially participate), it would seem that only the minority of the US amateur population are participating. Perhaps 10, to maybe 20%?
On the other side of the coin, there's a percentage of amateur's out (perhaps equally as large) that hear that a contest in progress and just turn their radio back off; with the thought that many of the bands will be pretty much useless for normal qso'ing, general traffic, nets, experimentation, SSTV, DSSTV, etc, at least until the contest is over.
I'm all for amateurs enjoying whatever facet of the hobby they find interesting. My only gripe with contesting is, it occupies so much of the amateur spectrum, in some cases for many hours or days, basically leaving only the WARC bands free.
Personally I'd like to see contest organizers limit contesting frequencies so some portion of each band (or sub-band) are left open so everyone can enjoy the bands, every weekend.
KF4HR
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W4VR on May 12, 2008
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Yes indeed, if it were not for contests young people would not take up ham radio.
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by k5tr on May 12, 2008
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Cal,
Great to hear you are enjoying amateur radio and contests. I have been operating in contests throughout my years as a ham. I started in amateur radio when I was a teenager, like you, and while I have experienced many different aspects of the hobby over the years and continue to do more than just straight contesting the major thread through the years has been contest operating.
I will be looking forward to our next contest contact.
--
George Fremin III
K5TR
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by WB2WIK on May 12, 2008
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Excellent, Cal.
Contesting is "radio sporting" and a definite draw for younger hams who might not otherwise justify getting a license at all.
Spread the word!
73
Steve WB2WIK/6
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by G3RZP on May 12, 2008
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It is said that in the CQWW SSB contest, there are around 35,000 callsigns active worldwide. Now assume that all those 35,000 came on to ragchew or DX or experiment - it would be case of the bands having just as much QRM as in a contest.
The problem ends up as being ACTIVITY! Contests promote activity - usefully, too for the VHF/UHF/microwave bands, where its very much a case of 'use or lose'. But the available (especially at this stage of the sunspot cycle)HF bands are somewhat narrow for the level of activity a big contest attracts.
Contesting is an attraction for many of the younger amateurs, and seems quite important for getting new entrants. If I don't want to work a contest (and I often give away a few points), there's CW when there's an SSB contest and SSB when there's a CW contest, and there's the WARC bands. Additionally, contests can give a good chance to increase your DXCC score, especially on the low bands.
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3YZ on May 12, 2008
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Contest log data are about the only means that organizations, such as the ARRL, have to show band usage in spectrum defense.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by AE6RF on May 12, 2008
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> But of the approximately 3/4 of a million US amateurs, > what percentage do you think actually participates?
The more important question.
Of the 3/4 million, how many are actually on the air?
Of those, how many are only on the air for contests?
It seems a given that there is MUCH more activity on the bands during contests than non-contests.
That would seem to indicate that the folks involved in the contests are more "active" than those who aren't...
Those who 'just turn their radio off' would probably do so if non-contest activity were the same level...
Futhermore, I wonder about the flexibility of those who 'just turn their radio off.'
WARC bands = no contest activity.
The "other" mode (CW v Phone or Phone v CW) = no contest activity
"Novice" sub-bands = no contest activity
Upper part of the bands = no contest activity
Something to ponder.
73 de Donald
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KF4HR on May 12, 2008
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"It is said that in the CQWW SSB contest, there are around 35,000 callsigns active worldwide."
That's incredible! Only 35,000 participated in the CQWW SSB world-wide? Obviously my 10 to 20% US contesting participation percentage estimate was seriously exaggerated.
As far as promoting contesting on the higher frequencies and less used bands, that definitely makes sense. But contesting on bands that can sometimes be difficult to find a clear frequency to operate on; under normal circumstances?
Assuming contests are not designed purely as a game to see who can get the highest score, but rather (as some like to claim) a function of increasing station/operator operational emergency efficiency, I find in interesting that contest promoter's can't figure out a way to utilize some sort of simulated traffic exchange and follow-up coordination, instead of the typical auto-sequencing, one-size-fits-all "59 or 599", and recorded transmissions that most contest exchanges typically employ. But I suppose that wouldn't be nearly as fun.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for any activity that creates on-the-air activity; be it for the young or old, but I fail to see why one activity (whatever it is), should take a priority over another.
I really do think someone needs to take a hard look at contest activity participation versus the bandwidth involved.
KF4HR
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KL7AJ on May 12, 2008
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Cal,
Proud o' you, son!
Never forget that COMPETENCE and COMPETITION come from the same word. Don't let the old geezers on the gout and gallstones discusssion nets get you down.
Eric
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 12, 2008
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>> But of the approximately 3/4 of a million US amateurs, what percentage do you think actually participates?
>The more important question.
>
>Of the 3/4 million, how many are actually on the
>air? Of those, how many are only on the air for
>ontests?
Lets use 20 meter SSB as our reference band.
The licensed ham population is about 650,000. 335,000 cannot get on the most popular HF band - 20 meter SSB - so the theoretical population for HF is more like 325,000.
Even then, the 325,000 includes licenses that are expired but not beyond the two year cancellation period, hams that are SK but have not had a license expire, hams that are completely dormant, hams that have given up on radio, etc.
The consensus from various sources is that no more than 35 to 40 percent of the US amateur population is active. So, assuming straight line numbers for the license classes, there are probably not more than 110,000 - 125,000 active 20 meter SSB capable hams.
Those HF capable hams have 96.92 percent of the hours in a calendar year to be free of the major contests - events like CQWW, Sweeps, Worked All Europe, or Russia DX. For mid-sized contests like NAQP, Sprint, CQP IOTA and the like, there is little difficulty in finding a band opening. It may not be 14.200; it may not be 14.250, but there will be openings. For events like the "Run for the Bacon QSO Party" or the "Montana QSO party", there will be NO difficulty in finding a band opening or clear frequency.
>It seems a given that there is MUCH more activity on
>the bands during contests than non-contests.
Ive noticed that too. Last weekend I tuned across 20 SSB and there were entire swaths of spectrum that was unused. Not quite the case during a contest.
>WARC bands = no contest activity.
>The "other" mode (CW v Phone or Phone v CW) = no
>contest activity
>"Novice" sub-bands = no contest activity
>Upper part of the bands = no contest activity
Agee 100%....
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KC0RBX on May 12, 2008
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I don't know a whole lot about contests. I have one question. When I come across a contester and i'm not in the contest myself, i don't know what they mean by, "your number is" or something to that effect. I know they seem a little frustrated when I try to ask what they mean. I understand that because they want to make as many QSOs as possible, and don't want to take the time to explain. I'm happy to make a QSO with a contester but i'm a little confused by the process and nomenclature. Any explanations would help and I bet the contesters would make even more QSOs if more new hams knew the answers to these questions as well.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by AB7E on May 12, 2008
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KF4HR: "I'm all for any activity that creates on-the-air activity; be it for the young or old, but I fail to see why one activity (whatever it is), should take a priority over another."
AB7E: I have yet to see any on-the-air activity where the sponsor, or anyone else, was able to force people to participate. For sure no aspect of ham radio inherently has priority over any other, but contests pretty clearly draw more interest than many other activities and sheer numbers create a sort of priority-by-quantity. I'm not saying it's fair, but it is probably equitable.
KF4HR: "I really do think someone needs to take a hard look at contest activity participation versus the bandwidth involved."
AB7E: That seems like a very weird comment to me. Listen to any major contest and you'll find the participants packed so tightly that very few frequencies don't have at least two layers of simultaneous QSOs going on. I'll bet the bandwidth utilization during a contest is, on average, at least three times that which would exist even if the band were full of ragchewers. That's the problem ... during a contest other rightful users can't find the room to do their thing. It certainly isn't a utilization problem, though. If priority were granted on the basis of bandwidth utilization, contests would trump everything else combined.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N6AJR on May 12, 2008
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I have been a ham since 1978 and in the last few years have started contesting. I enjoy it a lot and reccommend you hook up with a local area contest club.
I am a member of the Northern California Contest Club and this is a great bunch of folks. they have helped me improve my station, my techniques and my butt in chair time. I find it a great joy to be a memebr of this active group of hams.
See you in the California QSO party.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W5GA on May 12, 2008
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"When I come across a contester and i'm not in the contest myself, i don't know what they mean by, "your number is" or something to that effect."
Each contest has its own unique rule set, so what he means would depend on which contest it is. If you go to contesting.com you can find a calendar of upcoming events. Once you have the calendar, find the contest website and take a look at the rules regarding the "exchange" and it will become clear.
In the early part of a contest, expecting a serious contester to slow down to educate you is probably unreasonable. On a slow Sunday afternoon, they'd probably be glad to have anyone to talk to at this point in the sunspot cycle, and wouldn't mind at all.
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by VE3TMT on May 12, 2008
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I've been licensed since 1990 and only in the past two years or so have I really got into contesting. Not to say that I didn't listen before then, but I always thought without a beam and amplifier it's useless. Boy was I wrong. Although I participate in more digital mode contests than SSB, I still manage to work quite a few stations and continue to increase the country total. It is a great feeling when the op on the other end gives you a personal hello during the exchange, and I can think of a few that I always seem to work in every contest. My contest station is nothing more than a TS850S and Cushcraft R7. I just picked up a mint TR-751A 2m all mode at my first hamfest of the year so I am dying to try 2m SSB and CW contesting, although I think an amp may be in need! Bottom line...contesting is fun! (My wife might think otherwise!)
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W5ESE on May 12, 2008
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Good points from Donald.
> WARC bands = no contest activity.
> The "other" mode (CW v Phone or Phone v CW) = no
> contest activity
> "Novice" sub-bands = no contest activity
> Upper part of the bands = no contest activity
To those, I would add,
80 and 40 meters during daylight = no contest activity
(I used to make Novice band 80m and 40m contacts
in BROAD DAYLIGHT, morning and afternoon, during
the winter, 30 years ago).
Use your imagination, folks; instead of whining
about not being able to find a spot on 20m SSB
during contests!
73
Scott
W5ESE
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KC9MAV on May 12, 2008
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K0DXC DE KC9MAV
Hello from another youth operator!
First off everything you have said is correct!
Earlier K5TR posted, I was on youtube and saw his videos on CQ WPX 2008 he got around 5 million points as for me I am an idiot and forgot to turn in my log! I AM SORRY FOR ALL I HAVE WORKED MY BAD!
In the wpx contest I scored around 20,000 points pretty good.
73
From Youth Op
Dave KC9MAV
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 12, 2008
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"When I come across a contester and i'm not in the contest myself, i don't know what they mean by, "your number is" or something to that effect. I know they seem a little frustrated when I try to ask what they mean. "
There's always *some* additional piece of information that is exchanged between stations in a contest outside of signal report (which is almost always a meaningless 599 ;-) ) . This additional piece of info is, handily, called the "exchange". Some contests have very complicated ones, but most are pretty simple. Just a serial number which you get from counting your QSOs, the 17th QSO you make gets a "You're Five by Nine Number Seventeen" on phone. Or maybe "Five Nine One Seven" if condx are rough ;-)
The best way to avoid this problem all around is, when you hear a contest on, go to a contest calendar like this one:
http://www.hornucopia.com/contestcal/
Figure out what contest is likely to be on (the big ones are pretty obvious... little country-specific ones you'll notice because half the stations calling are from one country ;-) )
Then look for the "exchange" which is conveniently listed on the 8 day calendar.
So for example, you're on this weekend and you hear a bunch of Spanish stations .. you go click on the 8 day calendar and see:
His Maj. King of Spain Contest, CW: 1200Z, May 17 to 1200Z, May 18
and under that heading, you see that the exchange is :
EA: RST + province
non-EA: RST + Serial No
So if you're an EA (Spain) station, you send a signal report and your province and if you're not, you send a signal report and the serial number...
Many contests use the serial number, so when in doubt, if someone asks you for your "number" assume it's the serial number. They'll probably ask "what's your zone?" if you need to give CQ zone or "what's your state" if that's what you need to tell them.
But the sure-fire way to have fun sniping at contest contacts is to find the website for the contest or a calendar and just look up the exchange before you start making Q's.
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by AK2B on May 12, 2008
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Nice article, Cal.
If you do any CW you might want to try one of the QRP contests. They are usually pretty low key but still a lot of fun. A QRP contest sounds like a party where everyone whispers. That is, everyone except N4BP who even at 5 watts puts out a tremendous signal. By comparison, during QRO contests he rattles the dishes in my cupboard. There are others who also have excellent signals that most people would be surprised to find are QRP. More often though, these kinds of contests will definitely test your skills in pulling out weak signals and drive your receiver to its limits.
Anyway, I also keep a bookmark on WA7BNM 8-Day Contest Calendar which gives me all the information needed to compete if I happen to stumble across a contest one weekend where I don’t know the rules.
http://www.hornucopia.com/contestcal/weeklycont.php
73, Tom, ak2b
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 12, 2008
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"I am an idiot and forgot to turn in my log! I AM SORRY FOR ALL I HAVE WORKED MY BAD!"
It's only bad for you. If you worked a bunch of stations you gave them useful contacts. Not every contest contact must be cross-checked to count!
Sometimes unique calls get cut from logs because they're assumed to be busted. That is, KC9MAU only worked ONE station in the WHOLE contest, but KC9MAV worked 424 contacts.
Someone who only worked KC9MAU and not KC9MAV will probably have KC9MAU marked as a "busted call" ...
But that's ONLY since KC9MAU didn't make many QSOs. Contest organizers recognize that people will get on and work one station, maybe two if they're just sniping at DX. Those contacts still generally count.
If KC9MAU makes five or ten contacts, and six or seven of those were with stations that also worked KC9MAV, well KC9MAU was CLEARLY participating and not just a corruption of KC9MAV's call!
Neither of them have to send in their logs to count. I'm sure the overall scoring is very complicated and there are probably a lot of rules as to what gets counted and what doesnt.
For example, it would be ridiculous to scrap all of VP6DX's uniques from the contests they participated in because they're clearly a desirable target for people who have NO interest in the contest... and yet are passing out contest points to VP6DX just to get in the log. That's a good side effect of operating a contest from a rare DX location, and I'm sure it gives rise to a fair number of uniques. There were a ton of people calling them on 160m SSB who probably didn't make any other contest contacts.
However, if VP6PP from Pitcairn was also on, say, 160m with an equivalent signal for equivalent time periods and none of VP6DX's uniques showed up in VP6PP's log ... well, that's probably suspicious and would garner further scrutiny. Why would only *one* of them pick up interested 160m DXers?
So I'm sure the procedure for dealing with uniques varies from contest to contest, but at any rate, if you make at least five or ten contacts in the contest, you're SURE to count, log or no.
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W6TH on May 12, 2008
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.
W4VR on May 12, 2008
Yes indeed, if it were not for contests young people would not take up ham radio.
W6TH on May 12, 2008
Yes indeed, if it were not for contests young people would be at home studying todays home work, preparing for a high school diploma.
.:
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KC9MAV on May 12, 2008
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N3OX DE KC9MAV
I know that and I apologize.
I think I recognize what I did, I have been a ham for a year and a half now.
A terrible thing I did but I know how contesting works, I know what the causalities will be at the end.
Please don't tell me stuff I already know and have apologized for!
It's been a heck of a time over here at my qth.
73
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N4FOZ on May 12, 2008
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Very nice and well written article!
N4FOZ - NOFARS.org New Ham Advisor
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K0DXC on May 12, 2008
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I would like to thank everyone for the very nice comments so far on this article. I submitted it about 2 months ago and it is nice to see it finally published.
Since then I have made quite a few changes to the article (there were many grammar mistakes as you probably saw and I even added quite a few parts)
Thanks for all the feedback.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 12, 2008
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"N3OX DE KC9MAV
I know that and I apologize.
I think I recognize what I did, I have been a ham for a year and a half now."
What are you talking about? You *DO NOT HAVE TO SUBMIT A LOG* for others to count contacts with you. That's what I said. They don't check logs against each other like that.
"Please don't tell me stuff I already know and have apologized for!"
I think you're apologizing for something that didn't hurt anyone at all, except you yourself if you wanted a score.
Go back and read what I wrote again. The only time you would ever *not count* is if you made *one* or *two* contacts AND had a call similar to someone who made a lot.
Chill out, you didn't do anything wrong and I didn't say you did ;-)
73
Dan
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Contesting isn't all that the bands are used for.
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by K1CJS on May 12, 2008
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There are some who take up ham radio for the experimentation and also for the relaxation of talking to someone on the bands who share that aspect of the hobby. Contesting is not relaxing--it is just the opposite. However, if someone enjoys the constant searching for another contact and scrambling to get everything logged in and submitted just to get recognition, all the more power to them.
Its a shame that there is so much activity that takes up whole bands during those contests, the other people who are looking for a casual and relaxing contact have to contend with lids (however small the percentage of them is) who have no regard for other hams and who just want to get that one more contact down in their log. These lids come on right on top of other QSOs already in progress--and ruin them. And please, I'm NOT implying all contesters are like that.
Contests have their places, I'm sure, but they should be restricted more than they are. With the operation of contests and other uses of the bands, it is sometimes hard to find a frequency that is usable for a short time for a casual QSO on some weekends. Please, have your contests, but leave some room for others on the bands too.
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RE: Contesting isn't all that the bands are used f
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by G3RZP on May 13, 2008
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>These lids come on right on top of other QSOs already in progress--and ruin them. And please, I'm NOT implying all contesters are like that.<
Not only in contests - K1MAN comes to mind!
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RE: Contesting isn't all that the bands are used f
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by KA3JLW on May 13, 2008
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>>> Contests should be restricted more than they already are?
Contests are already the ONLY restricted activity, other than CW vs SSB portions of the bands. They are restricted in time.
I would offer that things would be worse if you set aside areas for contesting. If you did, the contests would go longer - as they simply wouldn't fit in whatever space was designated. Contests would be a week long and would effectively be nonstop in that band.
Contest ops are used to being crowded but the rest aren't. So now, your own proposal has everyone else bunched together and not able to handle it.
Point is, you already have your freedom from contests for something like 97% of the year. Restrict it into a band of frequencies and I suspect you'll be far worse off.
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W8KQE on May 13, 2008
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Good post! Glad you enjoy contesting.
I also totally agree with KC8CXZ above. I'm not a serious contester, but I do take advantage of the glut of DX stations on the air during some of the major contests to work some new ones across several bands, or to work new grid squares on the 6 meter band. Running a simple station with 100 watts and a vertical, wires, or 'junior' beam (TA-32JR.), mainly due to physical space constraints, contesting gives Hams like me a better chance to work lots of DX and to be heard. Long ragchews often end up in lost contacts due to QSB, QRM, etc. Keeping it short sometimes has it's advantages for 'little guns' like me. Moreover, it's FUN, pure and simple.
Long live Amateur Radio 'contesting'!!!
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K6CRC on May 13, 2008
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Great article. Note to old timers, few of us could write this well when we were 13. On the aggregate, today's young people are significantly more aware and articulate than we can imagine.
As an old timer (55) and a new ham (1 year as a general), I enjoy working contests. If not for contests, there would be few hams on the air, in my opinion. In checking my log, roughly 70% of domestic and 90% of DX were during contests. Granted, the SS cycle is part of it.
You want to see the hobby fall off the face of the earth? Stop contests.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by WA2DTW on May 13, 2008
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Something I never understood:
Why DON'T contesters give honest and accurate signal reports?
73
Steve WA2DTW
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 13, 2008
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What is an honest report? Where is the objective (not subjective) criteria?
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by WB2WIK on May 13, 2008
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>RE: Contesting in Ham Radio Reply
by WA2DTW on May 13, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Something I never understood:
Why DON'T contesters give honest and accurate signal reports?
73
Steve WA2DTW<
::Answer: To save time, and make as many contacts as possible. Contesters all most all use logging software (programs) which automatically default to providing a "59" report for "phone" and a "599" report for CW. You have to manually override that in order to plug in a "real" report, and almost nobody bothers because it just isn't important. In fact, the "report" part of the exchange is silly. It would be far better to always use some other piece of data.
This is the case (another piece of data, and NOT a "signal report") in several very good operating events. In those, signal report isn't even part of the exchange, but "something else" is, such as a serial number, year first licensed, State, County, ARRL Section, grid square, or even first name! Those are really fun contests, and not as boring as hearing "59" a thousand times.
I like contests, and I'm all for (as most contesters are) eliminating the "signal report" exchange altogether -- it's meaningless. If we need to exchange more "data," make it something meaningful as it already is in some contests.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Contesting isn't all that the bands are used f
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by K1CJS on May 13, 2008
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"Contests are already the ONLY restricted activity, other than CW vs SSB portions of the bands. They are restricted in time."
Exactly, but they're restricted to times when most people get on the bands--weekends. And the only time for a lot of hams to operate is--weekends! The final point is that there are contests scheduled for about 90 per cent of the weekends during the year.
Without starting a war of words here, there is no easy answer to the problem. But there is still a problem, and the only people who don't feel there is one are.....contesters.
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RE: Contesting isn't all that the bands are used f
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by NN3W on May 13, 2008
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There are "contests" on most weekends, but most contests do not impact the bands.
Do you really think that the "Run for the Bacon QRP Contest" which is held this coming weekend is going to obliterate the CW portion of the bands? How about the "His Majesy King of Spain Contest"? How about the "ARCI Hootowl Sprint"?
I'll answer the question for you. They have no more impact on the bands than does an activation from Mantiwonk Light House, or the IOTA expedition from Rockall or the Old-Timers Prostate and Kidney net. In other words - essentially none.
Yet, you complain like there are no viable operating frequencies on any of the 52 weekends of the year.
The fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of the HF bands go unaffected during the year; 96.92 percent of the calendar year is free of the big contests. The weeknds are equally contest free. Counting weekend hours only, the major contests occupy about 10% of the weekend hours in a year. You've got 90% of the year to talk about the weather, your latest colonoscopy, your XYL's bad cooking, or whatever pleases you.
Contests occur every weekend. But so too do nets, light house activiations, DXpeditions, SSTV operations, etc. Perhaps we should allow only 10% of the operating time for those methods of operation....
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KF4HR on May 13, 2008
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"Point is, you already have your freedom from contests for something like 97% of the year. Restrict it into a band of frequencies and I suspect you'll be far worse off."
Far worse off? Well, at least thank you for acknowledging that non-contester's are, at least in part, "worse off" because of contesting. But it begs the question... Why does "anyone" need to be "worse off" because of a particular amateur activity? Every other activity and/or mode; EME, digital modes, SSB, SSTV, CW, FM, has its frequency limits or a set aside frequencies ranges; what's wrong with doing the same for contesting? And with less frequencies available, wouldn't that increase the contesting challenge?
Here's an interesting analogy to consider. Instead of the contest weekends, lets say SSTV'ers were on the air, with the same numbers as contesters and monopolized the bands the same way contests do. Now picture SSTV signals, back-to-back, on several weekends of the year, and of course using the majority of the active bands... and the majority of hours of the weekend. And to find a clear frequency, to do anything else, was seriously difficult or next to impossible. How well that would go over with the general ham population, particularly those that weren't interested in SSTV?
"You want to see the hobby fall off the face of the earth? Stop contests."
I suppose this type of statement should be expected from a newly licensed amateur. Unfortunately it discards all the other activities that occurs the other 97% of year. What about all the other amateurs involved with; various nets (service, religious, equipment, military orientated, etc), the people who enjoy pure experimentation, the rag chewers, the SSTV'ers, the QRP'ers looking for a real qso, etc, and of course let's not forget the thousands of amateurs who just get on the air occasionally for a relaxing qso. Do you not think these activities would like to take place on a contest weekend?
It's time to get real folks. There's nothing wrong with contesting in general. If it makes you happy to rack up your score, by all means knock yourself out. But like it or not, contests really are only carried out by only a small percentage of the overall amateur population - and they do negatively amateurs that are not contester's. No other amateur operation except contesting removes operational freedom, even for 3% of the time. It's high time frequency limitations are considered for contests.
KF4HR
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 13, 2008
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>>"Point is, you already have your freedom from >>contests for something like 97% of the year. >>Restrict it into a band of frequencies and I >>suspect you'll be far worse off."
>Far worse off? Well, at least thank you for
>acknowledging that non-contester's are, at least in
>art, "worse off" because of contesting. But it begs
>the question... Why does "anyone" need to be "worse
>off" because of a particular amateur activity? Every
>other activity and/or mode; EME, digital modes, SSB,
>SSTV, CW, FM, has its frequency limits or a set
>aside frequencies ranges; what's wrong with doing
>the same for contesting? And with less frequencies
>available, wouldn't that increase the contesting
>challenge?
Ummm....Do you really want to go down this path? Nets on one side of the band, IOTA on another, contests on another, prostate/colon round tables on another, DXpeditions on another?
Your analogy that other activites/modes are already segregated or limited is an overstatement. Only modes are limited. PSK is kept separate from SSB. CW is kept separate from SSB. FM is kept separate from SSB and CW. Rag chewers on CW are not kept separate from DXpeditioners on CW. Nor are nets; nor are contests. Because to attempt to do 1) would not only be inefficient, but 2) would never be accomplished. How many KHz do you allocate to DXpeditions? How many do you allocate to nets? Needs and demand are constantly in flux and to attempt to interpose artificial distinctions is not only inefficient, unenforceable, but also quite stupid.
>Here's an interesting analogy to consider. Instead
>of the contest weekends, lets say SSTV'ers were on
>the air, with the same numbers as contesters and
>monopolized the bands the same way contests do. Now
>picture SSTV signals, back-to-back, on several
>weekends of the year, and of course using the
>majority of the active bands... and the majority of
>hours of the weekend. And to find a clear frequency,
>to do anything else, was seriously difficult or next
>to impossible. How well that would go over with the
>general ham population, particularly those that
>weren't interested in SSTV?
Well your hypothetical is skewed to begin with. First the claim that there is "monoli{zation}" on the
majority of the hours of the weekend" is farcical. The contests that have any material effect on the bands are limited in duration and time. You're analogizing SSTV to a geomag storm, not to contests.
But I'll bite. If SSTV occupied 14.150 to 14.350 on a particular weekend, I'd go down and work stations on 14.025 or 18.155. Was that so difficult?
>I suppose this type of statement should be expected
>from a newly licensed amateur. Unfortunately it
>discards all the other activities that occurs the
>other 97% of year. What about all the other amateurs
>involved with; various nets (service, religious,
>equipment, military orientated, etc), the people who
>enjoy pure experimentation, the rag chewers, the
>SSTV'ers, the QRP'ers looking for a real qso, etc,
>and of course let's not forget the thousands of
>amateurs who just get on the air occasionally for a
>relaxing qso. Do you not think these activities
>would like to take place on a contest weekend?
There is spectrum throughout the bands to operate. Thats why there are 9 HF bands. And on top of those 9 HF bands, there are subbands that are unmollested as I noted above.
And to answer your rhetorical question, to an extent, NO, these activities do not take place on the weekends. I took a spin of 40 and 20 meters last Sunday, and the amount of unused spectrum on those two bands alone was jawdropping. I could turn the knob for 10 KHz on 40 and not hear a signal. Essentially the same on 20. I'll assume that the same was true of 30, 15, and 17. I won't even mention 10 meters that goes unused even though there are indeed openings - the contests prove that point.
>It's time to get real folks. There's nothing wrong
>with contesting in general. If it makes you happy to
>rack up your score, by all means knock yourself out.
Thank you, I will.
>But like it or not, contests really are only carried
>out by only a small percentage of the overall
>amateur population - and they do negatively amateurs >that are not contester's.
Oh, I'd argue that nets can be equally detrimental. Riley Hollingsworth made that point clear at Dayton last year.
>No other amateur operation except contesting removes
>operational freedom, even for 3% of the time. It's
>high time frequency limitations are considered for
>contests.
Oh, Id say that DXing often removes swaths of band. In any event, you're arguing for a wholesale change of the bands because of what happens in three percent of the calendar year? Talk about inefficiency and removal of operating freedom. You're proposing just that. For three percent.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NQ3X on May 13, 2008
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"It's high time frequency limitations are considered for contests."
Ooooo-kay.
[rolls eyes]
I admit I come at this from the radiosport perspective. I enjoy contests, as I find them a great deal of fun. They are a way for me to engage my competitive nature without further abusing my already-complaining body (ten-plus years of hockey and rugby will do that to a guy).
I just want to wonder about one thing - if you're not a contester, are you a DXer? What about the nets and ragchews that get obliterated by 100kc of splatter from the pileup generated by a bunch of guys on some rocks in the middle of the ocean? Hm? Should we restrict DXpeditions to narrow chunks of spectrum? How about we restrict them to narrow chunks of the calendar? How about the net ops who fire up their 'leenyars' to talk to their buddies in the next county, regardless of activity on the frequency under dispute? Are they faultless?
No matter how you slice it, there's always going to be competition amongst amateurs for our limited spectrum. We can either deal with it and make the best of it, or we can endlessly quibble on the Internet about how many Silent Keys can dance on the head of a pin.
Me, I'm going to go troll 30m and maybe have some ham radio fun (don't tell anyone, but it's really practice for CQWPX CW!).
Cheers,
Bob NQ3X
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KF4HR on May 13, 2008
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The ability for our collective ranks to pull together, see situations from all sides of the coin and come up with workable solutions for all is totally amazing. I am so proud. :^)
KF4HR
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 13, 2008
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"I just want to wonder about one thing - if you're not a contester, are you a DXer?"
Well, speaking for myself, I'm neither. I just enjoy a QSO once in a while--a nice, casual talk with someone who just wants to have a nice casual talk. Again, I know it is a small number, but there are contesters trying to break in to those conversations to just get another contact. The rude exception to the generally courteous rule? Very possibly. But its still there, and still damn annoying.
______________
Nets and other short term contacts last just a little while--certainly not more than an hour--and yes, I'll admit there are some nets that run longer. But they don't run a full weekend, or even a full day.
At this time, while the bands are in sad shape because of the solar minimum, there are just some bands that are unusable at certain times. So, there aren't really 9 HF bands to choose from--at certain times there are only two or three.
Yes, we've all got to share the bands--but why don't some contesters understand that fact??
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RE: Contesting isn't all that the bands are used f
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by WA4DOU on May 13, 2008
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"Contests have their places, I'm sure, but they should be restricted more than they are. With the operation of contests and other uses of the bands, it is sometimes hard to find a frequency that is usable for a short time for a casual QSO on some weekends. Please, have your contests, but leave some room for others on the bands too."
There remains plenty of room for those willing to avail themselves. Other modes on the same band, other bands, etc.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 13, 2008
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Actually nets like MidCars, WestCars, the Maritime nets, and the DX nets run for many hours.
According to its website, MidCars runs from 7:30 am ET until 2:00 pm ET - 6.5 hours (every day).
The maritime nets on 14.300 run for about 15 hours (every day)
Nets on 14.313 take up most of the day as well.
As to bands being open, what is your intended opening path? You can work up to 1000 miles on 40 meters during the middle of the day, a few thousand miles on 30 meters at the same time, intercontinental range on 20 and 17 meters, and a few thousand miles on 15 meters. Thats up to 5 bands where communications is possible. And don't forget that when 20 meter SSB is full of stations in the contest (which happens about 6 times a year for the major contests), 20 meter CW is usually untouched.
The only exceptions are for Russia DX which runs 24 hours and IARU HF which runs for 24 hours.
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K2XC on May 13, 2008
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Outstanding piece of technical writing. I am sure the Air Force would be interested in paying for your college degree and having you as a electronics officer in about 4 years. Think about it. I have only been a ham since july 2007. I found your writing quite informative compared to other magazine stories about contesting. I retired from the Air Force 20 years electronic technician. You have talent..the right stuff. Keep writing and aim for the stars.
73's Jim K2XC
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 13, 2008
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>>>The ability for our collective ranks to pull together, see situations from all sides of the coin and come up with workable solutions for all is totally amazing. I am so proud. :^)<<<
OK, fine, lets work a deal. Lets use next weekend's CQ WPX CW contest as the first workable solution. CQ WPX is a major test and runs 48 hours.
The contesters can have:
1.800 - 1.875 MHz
3.500 - 3.600 MHz
7.000 - 7.100 MHz
14.000 - 14.125 MHz
21.000 - 21.100 MHz
28.000 - 28.100 MHz
Thats a total of 575 KHz of spectrum for the contest.
The non-contesters can have:
1.875 - 2.000 MHz
3.600 - 4.000 MHz
7.100 - 7.300 MHz
10.100 - 10.150 MHz
14.125 - 14.350 MHz
18.068 - 18.168 MHz
21.100 - 21.450 MHz
24.890 - 24.990 MHz
28.100 - 29.700 MHz
Thats a total of 3.150 MHz of spectrum for the "non-contest".
Oh wait....Thats the way it is anyhow!!!! Is there really a problem here?
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by WA4DOU on May 13, 2008
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"Oh wait....Thats the way it is anyhow!!!! Is there really a problem here?"
The real problem is that some of the non contesters aren't in an accomodating mood. They want to go where they please and when they want to do it. The real problem in their minds is that the contesters are there, pursuing their "stupid" contest.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W9WHE-II on May 13, 2008
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"Yes indeed, if it were not for contests young people would not take up ham radio".
Huh?
I wonder how many people are turned off by the callous rudeness of contests and wonder why anyone would want to be part of ham radio.
Lord knows I do.
W9WHE
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 13, 2008
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Actually, many young hams that I know have gotten into ham radio because of contesting. They like the competitive nature of the activity and the ability to challenge themselves.
They could care less about "round tables" where you speak once every 15 minutes, prostate exam nets, and traffic nets....
Sorry if that doesn't meet with your approval, but its true.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 13, 2008
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KF4HR says: "But like it or not, contests really are only carried out by only a small percentage of the overall amateur population"
Look, neither of us can deny that the band gets full when there's a contest going. Like really, legitimately, overlappingly full. But those participating in that activity have a right to be there operating, right?
I recognize that it's hard to find a frequency on certain bands when one of the major contests is going on, but that's because the band is *in use* by *licensed amateurs* You can give anecdotal evidence of a contester that plopped right down on top of a net and pretended not to hear them, and that's wrong, but the bigger picture is that the whole band ends up "frequency in use" and that could happen even if bad egg contesters never "chased" anyone off the air. When we talk about wanting to restrict contesters to a certain segment of the band, we have to keep this in mind: If *every* contester was always a nice guy who would never call CQ over an existing contact, you would be restricting licensed amateurs to the use of a fraction of their operating privileges on that band just because you don't like how they're using it.
I just can't see how you can claim that contesters are a small percentage of operators and also recognize that they make the band full. The band becomes useless for non-contest activity because licensed amateurs are occupying the whole band more densely than the guys who are on other times of the weekend. Now, it's not usually that your ordinary amateur occupies the bands 24/7... but then the contesters are not really a problem in the middle of the night, eh?
So let's just stick with Saturday evening from 5pm to 10pm EST. And let's pick a big contest, say CQWW DX SSB. Are there, on average, more individual amateurs active in total in this potentially popular time slot during your ordinary weekend or during CQWW SSB? That's the way we have to measure this! Not, for example, the number of logs received by the CQWW organizers divided by the total number of amateurs worldwide ;-)
I don't think either of us know the answer to how many contesters are on 5pm to 10pm EST the Saturday of CQWW SSB vs. the average number on in that slot any other Saturday... but that's what we need to look at if we're going to make claims like "contesters are a small fraction of the ham population" because the ham population that isn't being "displaced" because they're not going to be on the air anyway shouldn't count if we're going to be fair about this! This mysterious phantom "ham population" that's being so onerously displaced somehow doesn't seem to fill up the bands 24/7 on other weekends ;-) But they *should*
There are 650,000-ish hams in the license database I think. Huge numbers of them are not allowed on HF. Huge numbers of those remaining never get on HF. How do I know? I think someone said about half the licensed amateurs are Techs. If this is true, and we have 330,000 or so HF-licensed hams (let's pretend that they're all Extras which they aren't)
I calculate we have something like 3.5MHz of contest-allowed HF spectrum: 200kHz 160m, 500kHz 80m, 300kHz 40m, 350kHz 20m, 450kHz 15m, 1.7MHz 10m.
If we stacked CW QSOs 100Hz apart (better have good filters) across 3.5MHz worth of spectrum, which we are, in principle, allowed to do, we can fit about 35,000 simultaneous CW QSOs on the "contest bands" That's 70,000 people, a little over 20% of the HF licensed, I guess. So each of the 330,000 HF licensed amateurs is entitled to 4.8 hours of CW operating per day (TX AND RX). Everyone gets 20% of a day to operate, just to be fair. the other 80% of a day, you gotta clear out of the 160m, 80m, 40m, 20m, 15m, and 10m bands and make room for the other 80% of the "ham population"
If we were allowed to do SSB across the whole swath, which we *aren't*, you're taking up 3kHz per QSO, 30x a 100Hz CQ QSO. That means we're all allowed 30 times *less* time if we want to share nice with the "ham poplulation"
That's 9.6 minutes. So everyone enjoy your 10 minutes of SSB operating each day, and remember, if you talk longer than that, you're robbing someone else in the ham population of their time*bandwidth!!! On the plus side, you only have to ID once. On the minus side, if you're a DXer you only get FIVE minutes (2.5 minutes transmitting?) because you're not sharing it with another U.S. ham ;-)It's obvious that the actual HF-active U.S. ham population operating on any given day is a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall license numbers. Otherwise, the bands would have to be full wall to wall, round the clock to even make a dent in demand.
I'm not making excuses for the bad behavior of certain contesters, but I want the claims of "small fraction of the population" to line up with reality. I suspect that the bands get full on contest weekends because more people want to use them then than otherwise, period.
73
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NQ3X on May 14, 2008
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Oh, Dan, Dan, Dan.
You're not seriously trying to counter knee-jerk reaction with reason?
Here's a broomstick and a donkey; I'll give you a map to the windmill.
Bob NQ3X
=D
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 14, 2008
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"You're not seriously trying to counter knee-jerk reaction with reason?
Here's a broomstick and a donkey; I'll give you a map to the windmill. "
- - - - - -
Hey Bob, I'm glad you like my argument, but we should keep in mind that there can be a STRONG case made for the *other* problem, that is, contesters who intentionally stomp on ragchews to get a CQ frequency; from KH2D.net, regarding contesters in the IARU 'test who called CQ on KH2D's ragchew frequency:
"A couple times, the visitor simply tucked his tail between his legs and QSY'ed. One time, after I told a loud California station, "Gee, that's not nice to call CQ without listening first" I got a polite apology, an explanation of how he was popping back and forth between two VFO's, and a request for zone 64, so I gave him a report and put him in my CT log.
But what happened the overwhelming majority of times that our ragchew frequency was suddenly visited by one of my fellow contesters left me even MORE amazed....... The majority of the time my requests to realize the frequency was being used were responded to with another CQ CONTEST !!
Since I've been operating on HF for more than 3 weeks, I have methods to deal with most situations. I realize that in a contest, problems arise - lots of QRM, people can't hear each other, etc. So when my request to please QSY was met with another CQ CONTEST, I'd apply the old 'Let's see if he can REALLY hear me trick' and yell 'KH2D'.
And then I was even MORE amazed when almost EVERY time I did that I'd get "KH2D 59 xx". You can't hear KH2D when he's ragchewing, you can't hear KH2D when he politely asks you to QSY because the frequency is in use, but when you key KH2D into CT and you see you need Zone 64 for a new multiplier, well, that's another story - you damn sure can hear KH2D then......"
- - - - - -
I personally think these guys are a minority of contesters.
But the guy who will call CQ on a frequency after being told that it's in use, and will only "hear" you when you're willing to pass them a mult and leave them "their new frequency" is the reason that people have such a negative view of contesters, even if there are only a few of them. So we shouldn't paint it like it's totally unjustified and ridiculous to get upset. Even if a small percentage of contesters are frequency-stealing %(#&*%#%, they cause a LOT of public relations problems.
While I don't buy that contesters are a "tiny minority" of hams, nor do I buy that "most contesters are jerks," I also can't *really* say that the negativity toward contesters is "knee-jerk." It's based on what I think (and hope) is a small minority of contesters who can do a huge amount of damage by trying to secure a clear frequency by taking it from a couple guys with G5RVs.
They are out there, they *ARE* a problem. Contesters shouldn't all get stuffed into subbands because of them, but I think we should all be sensitive to the other side of the argument: that a few frequency-stealing jerks with total contempt for regular hams do exist out there, and they really only come out during contests.
So it's not at ALL unjustified to get upset with these guys, but I think it is unjustified to blame contests and contesters as a whole when you should be blaming (and probably disqualifying!) the Lids.
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 14, 2008
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"The real problem is that some of the non contesters aren't in an accomodating mood. They want to go where they please and when they want to do it."
Oh, I suppose you mean somthing like this:
Someone is on a particular frequency having a QSO when a contester breaks in during the exchange. No sooner than that one 'finishes' there is another, and another, and the frequency gets taken over so the ham who just wants to have a quiet peaceful QSO finds himself outside looking in. So, he finds another frequency that is quiet and gets word to his friend to go there. They're no sooner there when the contesters are right back on top of them.
Is that what you mean by going wherever they want to go? Because that is what happens more times than not.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NQ3X on May 14, 2008
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Gotcha, Dan. You make good points on both sides, and your arguments - from either perspective - make perfect sense.
What I was trying to say was that trying to convince anyone with closely-held convictions - on either side - with reason is damn near impossible.
To be clear: I have no patience for lids, whether they transmit "59 5" or "My lumbago is acting up really bad today, Jim." Frequency wars are just plain wrong. I know I've never - not once - failed to QSY when asked. I always QRL? before I start calling CQ TEST; if I can hear you respond, I go away, even if that means operating S&P for another hour when I really need to run. Does that make me an angel? Nope.[1] But it *does* allow me, ethically, to get *my* knickers in a twist when *I*, with my 100w, get knocked off a productive run freq so that Jim can (without asking if the frequency is in use) call Ron across town, using their legal-limit amplifiers, and tell each other that their lumbago hurts just as much as it did twenty hours ago.
You dig? There are lids on both sides, and both sides have their maniacal adherents. None of those lids will listen to reason. Hence my descent into Quixotic references. ;-)
Cheerfully,
Bob NQ3X
[1] If anyone needs a supporting reference to say I'm a lid, remind me to tell you how I screwed up my VFOs on 40m phone once and transmitted like I was in Zone 1 for the better part of a half-hour! I *still* wait with a nameless dread for the Rile-o-gram.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 14, 2008
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"You dig? There are lids on both sides, and both sides have their maniacal adherents. None of those lids will listen to reason."
True, true ;-)
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 14, 2008
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"But it *does* allow me, ethically, to get *my* knickers in a twist when *I*, with my 100w, get knocked off a productive run freq so that Jim can (without asking if the frequency is in use) call Ron across town"
Also true!
"remind me to tell you how I screwed up my VFOs on 40m phone once and transmitted like I was in Zone 1 for the better part of a half-hour!"
Heh, at least it was accidental. I've heard a fair number of U.S. guys calling DX simplex on 40m and completing QSO's ;-)
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 14, 2008
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"Someone is on a particular frequency having a QSO when a contester breaks in during the exchange. No sooner than that one 'finishes' there is another, and another, and the frequency gets taken over so the ham who just wants to have a quiet peaceful QSO finds himself outside looking in."
Chris, this behavior is self-selecting.
That is, a contester that actually respects the ragchewers will just pass 'em on by and leave 'em alone.
So you'll never, ever run across the respectful contesters by sitting on your usual frequency and having your usual ragchew. You'll only run across the ones who are willing to try to sneak your frequency out from under you because they have a contempt for those "darn ragchewers who don't realize a contest is going on" ;-) The only exception to this is if you happen to be in a rare mult state or DXCC or something, in which case a nice guy might stop by, break in, and ask you nicely for a Q.
The ethical guys looking for a place to CQ will tune past you. So will the search-and-pouncers because they realize you're not in the contest.
And I know it seems like an awful lot of people are doing annoying stuff to you if someone breaks in every 20 minutes to try and wrest a contact from you (and maybe your frequency). But is it really that many, percentage wise?
Lets say the band is populated every 2kHz with a guy calling CQ on SSB (a very full contest time)... on 20m, that's perhaps a hundred guys calling CQ. Let's imagine the average rate at which search-and-pounce guys make contacts is, I dunno, a third of the rate (I think that's realistic) that the guys calling CQ can achieve. So there need to be more search and pouncers on than run guys (which is generally the case, I think). So for every 1 CQer there are 3 guys on search-and-pouncing. We have 100 CQers and 300 search-and-pouncers, some of whom are heading up the band working stations and some of whom are imports who just got on the band... but overall, there are about 400 people on 20m in any given hour participating in the contest.
If you get broken in on every 15 minutes that means 4 of those hams active in that hour decided to bother you /steal your frequency. That's just 1% of the hams on the band during that hour.
If you're interrupted every five minutes, that's 3%.
So it doesn't take very many bad guys to ruin your day, right?
On a band that's full wall to wall with contesters, your little ragchew frequency will *seem* hopelessly besieged by $(#&%#)(* lid contesters if just 3% of them are jerks. You won't even get started ragchewing, even with 97% of the hams on the band being courteous to you and leaving your ragchew alone.
So I think there's a certain case to be made for expecting trouble if you decide to ragchew on 20m during one of, say, the major worldwide contests.
If I put $10,000 in a cage with a single orangutan, gave you the keys, and told you that 1% of orangutans will attack you unprovoked, what would you do? (they're very strong.) How might your answer change if the cage contained 400 orangutans?
I'm not going to say point blank that non-contesters should be staying off the "contest" bands when the major contests are going on. That's not how the rules work. But if it's important to you to get on 20m for a quiet ragchew in the middle of a major contest, I think it's not ridiculous that you have to defend yourself from a handful of dumb angry primates.
17m, 30m, 60m, the other-mode half of most bands during most contests... they're all outside the cage and you really can choose to go in or not. I don't think it's fair to make the cage smaller on those weekends where it contains a lot more of us silly radio monkeys ;-)
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W7ETA on May 14, 2008
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As soon as the new bands came into being, the I hate contesters and contests lost the last sliver of sanity they had hoped they had.
Bob
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KF4HR on May 15, 2008
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"... they're all outside the cage and you really can choose to go in or not."
"Cage" - That's the best single word summary of contesting I've ever seen.
KF4HR
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N5JFJ on May 15, 2008
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Quoted:
"Ummm....Do you really want to go down this path? Nets on one side of the band, IOTA on another, contests on another, prostate/colon round tables on another, DXpeditions on another?"
Yes... lets do go down this path!
Because the most valid part of these remarks which attempt to DEGRADE "DXer's" "Rag-Chewing" or Net operations, or Round table discussions is FAILURE to realize that they all are taking place "most only at" a certain frequency.
The Net, Rag Chews or The prostrate/colon Round Table discussions (as you put it) ARE mainly a group of individuals gathered around a frequency and "TAKING TURNS" in any discussion, EXCEPT they are doing so, in somewhat of an "ORDERLY" fashion!"
They are NOT taking up the entire Band, to converse together about what you called the Prostrate/Colon round table!
As far as chasing DX and IOTA?
Yes - there are some times, when some major DXpeditions decides to work SPLIT and takes out possibly 10Khz of a Band Segment. That mainly takes place because there are litterally thousands of Ham Radio Operators around the world "ALL" also desiring to make that CONTACT! But surprisingly you won't hear that taking place IF you don't frequent that SECTION of that Band. Amazing isn't it, that they can do this within 10 to possibly 20 Khz (which being that wide at 20Khz is frowned upon, or complained about!)
Most all of the comments made here are from folks who love or enjoy Contesting and that is certainly just fine. BUT when you begin to speak about the OLDEST CONTEST IN HAM RADIO (CHASING DX) and I mean long before anyone Ran For Pork, or decided that States needed a QSO Party, or a YL Party, or I work at AT&T do you Party, that really does not seem very Fair either.
Many of the Senior Ham operators with 20-50 Years under there belts, who have already been there and done that, worked DXCC and WAS and so on, are involved daily in their Round-Tables or their gathering of friends, that meet every day at the same time.
They meet, they discuss, and then most within an hour, are GONE and not out there scattered across the entire Band, screaming Prostrate/Colon Contest, for 48 Hours!
Sure I also "PARTICIPATE" in some of these contests.
Personally I've enjoyed ham radio enough that I have invested about $15,000.00 in my station, because I enjoy this Hobby that much, I also feel I have right to be able to enjoy DXing and chasing that IOTA that no one seems to hear or recognize was using the frequency first and it also bothers my heart to hear many of our far DX brothers not being recognized when they are using the frequency -Especially, when CQ-CONTEST right on top of them just covers them right on up!
Sure...Darn right, Contests can be held in "Band Segments" and lets not forget that this is also about "THE MONEY!"
What money? Whaaaaaaaat???????
The money the ARRL wants, and needs, on subscriptions that pay Salaries, and the money that Magazine Subcription Sales must have and need to survive.
So if I can find something that increases "SALES" nothing else truly matters (PERIOD)
Please, Let us not forget, that Ham Radio has been around for many many years, and so have many operators who do not CQ CONTEST, but that does not mean that they deserve any less RESPECT or should be told to leave the bands, or turn your radio off, mow the grass, or go to a dead WARC Band, in the name of: CONTEST!
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KB9WQJ on May 15, 2008
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Here's a clue:
A Prostate is a bodily organ.
Prostrate is an adjective describing the state of laying on the ground.
If you're going to bash anyone, at least use the correct terminology. If you can't use the right word, then the correct terminology for you is: MORON.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 15, 2008
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"That is, a contester that actually respects the ragchewers will just pass 'em on by and leave 'em alone."
Dan, you're right. The majority of contesters who hear a QSO will pass it by--but as you said, some may try to get a contact if they hear a hard to get locale mentioned--such as, say, Rhode Island. But the real problem I'm speaking of is those contesters that don't care one bit that you're minding your own business and aren't participating in the contest. Yes, I know I'm just repeating both you and myself, but bear with me a moment, and lets take it one step further.
Once the lids start their calling, some more courteous contesters will hear that call. (Your 'search and pouncers'.) Most take the time to see what they've tuning into before they're also calling and trying break into your QSO--but some will not. They hear a contest call, and they're right on top of it without taking the time to see what they're getting into--because they're trying hard to get their points--and they heard a contest call. Then, once there are a few contesters calling, even the most courteous contester may think the frequency is a contesting pileup and will park there and fight to get into the pileup.
Now, I know that this doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. I also agree with your statement it is wishful thinking to believe you'll not be interrupted. But at the same time I think you'll agree that it only takes one lid to start a possible chain reaction that causes a pileup right on top of your QSO.
The last part of the big picture is the proliferation of contests--there are only around a half dozen free weekends during the year. With the way our lifestyles are today and the length of time that has to be taken to get our daily tasks done, the only time a lot of us have the time to work the bands is the weekend.
Although there are bands that are available to use--for certain contacts, depending on the time of day and the distance your contact is from you, sometimes there is only one band that will suit your need--especially during the present solar minimum. It also does no good to 'schedule' a QSO because the contests usually last all weekend.
It ends up being a knotty problem for some hams--probably not too many, but a problem is still a problem even if it affects just a few because we're all constantly reminded we all have to share the bands.
Please understand I'm not condemning contests or contesters, I'm just speaking out about the contesters who refuse courtesy as a contesting rule--and I think you'll agree it should be. Because of them there is a need for a fair middle ground, and right now, it appears there isn't any. Hopefully, as the bands open up, there will be.
73!
Chris, K1CJS
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KD5RGJ on May 15, 2008
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I DON'T MIND CONTESTING, BUT WHAT BOTHERS ME IS 10 METERS WILL BE BUZZING LIKE 75 METERS FOR 2 DAYS AND THEN NOT A PEEP UNTIL THE NEXT CONTEST.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 15, 2008
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>a problem is still a problem even if it affects just a >few because we're all constantly reminded we all have to >share the bands.
Chris, I understand where you're coming from, I agree that many hams only have the weekends to operate and so forth, but if you share the opinion that it's a small percentage of contesters who are the problem then this is what you're saying if you try to limit contests in number or within the bands:
1) Most contesters are good guys who will leave your QSO alone.
2) A small percentage are ruthless %$$*%)** who would shoot their grandmother in the back for a frequency if they can't find one.
3) When the bands are packed full of hundreds and hundreds of licensed hams who enjoy contesting as their primary ham radio activity, frequencies become scarce.
4) When frequencies become scarce, you're more likely to encounter a ruthless %$$*%)*.
5) So let's get cut back the contests
which is an understandable impulse if you *associate the %$$*%)* just with contests* , but if you cut back contests then you're messing with the enjoyable operating time of those 97% of good contest operators... who can't actually get on every weekend if what they enjoy doing is operating the MAJOR contests (Yeah, I know there's a contest on every weekend, but like NN3W sez, you'll barely notice *most* of them)
If one admits that most of the contesters are good guys, then there's no problem with CONTESTS at ALL, not in number or frequency or duration; rather the problem is this:
1) the bands are simply *full.* yeah, you never hear that outside of a contest, but maybe it just means that more people like contesting than they like other ham radio activities. But the point is, the bands are being heavily used by people you've admitted are possibly 97% good guys.
2) whenever you are in a situation where you depend on at least 99.99% of the population involved to behave themselves, you are just going to have troublemakers ruining the situation. More than 0.01% of human beings are sociopaths.
From the Wikipedia article on Antisocial Personality disorder at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder
"According to DSM-IV (in a 1994 publication by the APA), Antisocial Personality disorder is diagnosed in approximately 3% of all males "
So you say this:
"Please understand I'm not condemning contests or contesters, I'm just speaking out about the contesters who refuse courtesy as a contesting rule--and I think you'll agree it should be."
But when it comes down to it, you can't ever seperate out the contesters that refuse courtesy. They're probably just a a few percent of the population, *no matter what the activity*. If you filled the band with ragchewing you would have ***EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEM***. In fact, I bet you can find it on 75m. In fact, I bet if you went to stamp collecting conventions you'd have a few percent trying to sneak your rarest stamps away from you. But for some reason, most bands never fills wall-to-wall with ragchewers or county hunters. If it did, we would have *EXACTLY* the same problem.
The fact is, we do need to share the bands, but I think we need to recognize that on every given weekend each and every one of the 330,000 HF-licensed hams in this country is well within their rights to claim a chunk of HF spectrum and use it.
And I know I'm repeating myself here, but run some numbers and think about what this actually means. If you divide that out (3.85 MHz/ 330,000) you get 11.67 Hz per licensed amateur. So in a frequency-division multiplexing sense, you have a right to 11.67Hz somewhere in the HF spectrum at any given time. You get about 23Hz if you pair off with a QSO partner. There's a PSK10 out there I think...
If you add in some time-division multiplexing, and everyone runs SSB at no more than 2300Hz bandwidth, every QSO pair gets 14.4 minutes a day. This is the reality of how much time we'd get to operate if just U.S. amateurs all had to share equally. (Also, CW ops would get more time) Isn't the situation we're in (where we all get to be band hogs, in a relative sense) much better?
I'm not suggesting we should change anything. In fact, all my posts aim at one thing:
Contesters, stop being mad at people who think contests suck, because they do, just like a traffic jam or any other human activity where you depend on 99.99% of the population to act unselfishly. Only 97% of the male population is capable of doing so. So for anyone who's not contesting, contests suck. Ragchewers want to get on a little bit each and every weekend and have a nice chat, and the sociopaths keep them from being able to do that.
Ragchewers, stop being mad at contesters and contests because it's not their fault, and it's not the fault of the contests. A few percent of the male population is incapable of even considering others' needs. It's not the fault of the 97% of good contesters, who are hams just like you. They want to get on during their scarce weekend time and enjoy a hobby, just like you do. But they have to save their scarce weekend time up for a few 48 hour blocks that they're *most* interested in. The rest of the time they're quietly working on their stations leaving the band free for you. Don't blame the contesters or the contests for the fact that a few percent of hams are bound to be sociopaths.
And finally, if we *all* actually had to *share equally,* and we only had to count U.S. hams, each and every one of us is entitled to about 14 minutes SSB per day... and rather less than that when the upper HF bands aren't open. And no, you *don't* get to save that up for the weekend, because everyone else is too.
I'd love to see the "are there too many contests" debate to end, because I think everyone has to agree that the current situation is much preferable to the "everyone-actually-shares-equally" situation. The average Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning has a fairly small fraction of the activity of a contest, and that's how casual hams like it. Yeah, there might be a Florida QSO party or a CW sprint going on, but it's not a CQWW DX contest all but six weekends.
What you're asking for if you ask to cut back contests without increasing ragchewing band activity to stupid levels is to secure more exclusive operating time with the bands at much, much less than theoretical capacity in a country where there are enough HF-licensed hams to fill the HF bands to theoretical capacity ten times over 24/7
And in that vein, can someone remind me why we're trying to increase license numbers? ;-)
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 15, 2008
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>>>>The last part of the big picture is the proliferation of contests--there are only around a half dozen free weekends during the year. With the way our lifestyles are today and the length of time that has to be taken to get our daily tasks done, the only time a lot of us have the time to work the bands is the weekend. <<<<
See, this is the part that is simply misleading.
Let me make it clear. Taking our reference band - 20 meter SSB, lets analyze.
There are SIX major contests where you can expect that there will be wall to wall stations participating in the contest.
ARRL DX (48 hours)
Russia DX (24 hours)
CQ WPX (48 hours)
IARU (24 hours)
Worked all Europe (48 hours)
CQWW (48 hours)
November Sweeps (30 hours)
Other than those weekend contests, every other weekend of the year as the vast majority of the weekend free of a contest. The NAQP does operate on two weekends, but it operates 12 hours (out of a 48 hour weekend) and does NOT occupy the entire band. You might hear stations from 14.150 to 14.250, but rarely above that. The NCJ sprints do operate on two weekends, but they operate for a grand total of 4 hours. So, 44 hours are contest free. And, like the NAQP, you will rarely hear stations above 14.250.
Other contests the 7th area QSO party or the CQP will take up intermittent frequencies here or there but I have NEVER had any problem making a QSO while the contest was in progress.
Lets take other examples. The ARRL 10 meter contest is a 48 hour contest. But does it affect you on 20 meter SSB? No. Same is true with the ARRL 16; same is true with the CQ 160 tests.
The claim that that there are contests every weekend infers that whenever a contest is active, all of the HF spectum (or even most of it) is unavailable for non-contest use. That is patently false.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NN3W on May 15, 2008
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Correction to the above post. That six should be a seven.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N7YA on May 15, 2008
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Think about it, if you look in a contest schedule it will look like theres 20 contests for everything under the sun every single weekend. But in fact, most of these contests are so small that you hardly ever hear any of the participants. Many of these are nothing more than promotion for activity of a particular mode or club and have little to no impact on anything.
And of course there are the big contests, but i love those. I never enter officially, but i use them to find new DX or states and zones that i need. You can say its easy pickings, but with all the traffic and not having an amp or big antenna, im slugging it out in the trenches to get them...its a lot of fun. Granted, there will always be rude contesters who take THAT aspect of ham radio too seriously, but I can sure think of a lot of other things in this world to get uptight about. a few weekends out of the year, ham radio becomes inconvenient for a certain percentage of hams...i would have to be ashamed if i caught myself complaining about something so trivial when men are fighting and dying thousands of miles from their homes and children. And we complain about too many people on the radio...im wondering what would truly bring happiness to a life like this. First theres not enough hams using the air, then theres too many. find a happy medium for crying out loud. Seriously, there are rude contesters, true, but tell me that there are no rude ragchewers as well...its not a particular title that is more rude than another, there are simply rude and arrogant people and nice respectful people....contesters and ragchewers alike have a healthy dose of both.
Enjoy the hobby, if you have to move around the band a little bit to find room to do that, then do it. Or just turn it off, find another mode, etc...Its still ham radio. if you can wait (for never more than 48 hours), trust me it will return to vast open swaths of empty static after its over and you can have it all to yourself then because contesting big guns usually shut it all off at 0001z.
Right after a big contest, i basically hear about 3 or 4 qso's going on...usually old ragchewers complaining about the contest. but minutes before, 1000's of stations from all over the world within reach...you do the math...which one would appeal to potential new hams more? Either way, i still find joy in playing with radios, the day that i become disenchanted about it, i will find a new hobby...im surely not imprisoned by my personal view of what a hobby should be in order to make me happy. it doesnt make a person a failure or weak to say "screw it, this isnt enjoyable anymore"...nor is it hard to explore the hobby a bit more and find new avenues that just might respark your interest all over again. Contesting, nets, ragchewing, DXing, etc...its just not that big a deal, certainly not enough to take prideful and arrogant stances on everything that one doesnt approve of. relax guys.
73...Adam, N7YA
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N5JFJ on May 15, 2008
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Thanks for correcting me Mr. Cornhole, I sometimes misspell things... but you get the idea.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K0DXC on May 15, 2008
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K1CJS States;
Once the lids start their calling, some more courteous contesters will hear that call. (Your 'search and pouncers'.) Most take the time to see what they've tuning into before they're also calling and trying break into your QSO--but some will not. They hear a contest call, and they're right on top of it without taking the time to see what they're getting into--because they're trying hard to get their points--and they heard a contest call. Then, once there are a few contesters calling, even the most courteous contester may think the frequency is a contesting pileup and will park there and fight to get into the pileup.
*********************************************
Chris,
If there are lids out there in contesting (there are lids in every part of amateur radio unfortunately) and if those lids start calling CQ on top of a QSO do you know what will happen? The "search and pouncers" will then skip over the CQer because if they came back they would be interfering with another station which is against the FCC rules. There are far more courteous ops out there then there are lids.
By the way everyone, I am working on another article right now called "problems in ham radio?"
I plan to send it in to either CQ or QST when it is finished. I also have a couple other ones coming out in magazines in the near future.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KF4HR on May 15, 2008
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Let me make it clear. Taking our reference band - 20 meter SSB, lets analyze.
There are SIX major contests where you can expect that there will be wall to wall stations participating in the contest.
ARRL DX (48 hours)
Russia DX (24 hours)
CQ WPX (48 hours)
IARU (24 hours)
Worked all Europe (48 hours)
CQWW (48 hours)
November Sweeps (30 hours)
Hummm, for the fun of it, let's put a little twist on this analysis and see if something else becomes clear.
Note the slight change to the Contest List:
ARRL SSTV Contest (48 hours)
Russia SSTV Contest (24 hours)
CQ WPX SSTV (48 hours)
IARU SSTV Contest (24 hours)
Worked all Europe SSTV Contest (48 hours)
CQWW SSTV Contest (48 hours)
November SSTV Contest (30 hours)
And no, the SSTV signals won't just be on 14.230khz, and let's forget the "20 meter reference band"... let's assume the SSTV signals will be occurring on every popular contest band and on every frequency of each of those bands; 160 meters, through say... 10 meters (no WARC bands of course).
Ok, the stage is set. All the thousands of SSTV'ers are ready to go! The linear amps are hummin'. Computers are loaded up with a SSTV transmit frame that proudly displays, "CQ SSTV Contest!" (and some standard signal report). Thousands of SSTV'ers are dreaming about seeing their callsign and high score posted in next month's QST magazine and every SSTV'er is ready to dedicate all weekend to that goal! It's time! Gooooo! Suddenly it's wall-to-wall SSTV chaos! Signals everywhere you look! Pictures are flying everywhere, it's fantastic! Nothing but SSTV signals for hours and hours and hours on end! Heck, it's a SSTV lover's heaven! Oh, and on both in the SSB and in the digital sub-band portions of the bands (don't forget about the new 500hz narrow band SSTV).
But wait. This shouldn't pose a problem with the rest of the amateur community, right? I mean non-SSTV'ers can probably find some WARC band to use, right? Well..., unless the WARC bands are closed for the night... then maybe not, but hey... if it turns out the WARC bands are dead, or WARC band conditions don't particularly favor the non-SSTV'ers needs, or there are people interested in scheduled nets, and they don't want to use CW, and God forbid non-SSTV'ers don't realize SSTV Contests are FUN for us... well - that's kinda tough, ain't it? Yep, unless you like SSTV and want to rack up a big SSTV Contest score you can pretty much forget other operations during our SSTV contest weekends because us SSTV'ers are having FUN! Besides, these contests are only certain weekends here and there, right?
Uh, the rest of you non-SSTV'ers wouldn't mind..., would you?
KF4HR
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KB9WQJ on May 16, 2008
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"Thanks for correcting me Mr. Cornhole, I sometimes misspell things... but you get the idea."
Anytime, junior.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 16, 2008
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"Uh, the rest of you non-SSTV'ers wouldn't mind..., would you? "
Not at all. If you can drum up enough interest to pack all the bands full of SSTV enthusiasts, why not?
I might just fire up and sling a few pictures.
See, your entire argument hinges on people having a distaste for SSTV. Maybe you don't like it and thought it would be a good example for a "look at how UTTERLY STUPID this behavior is" but I can tell you this:
If the most popular contests were SSTV contests, many of the same guys would be doing it.
It's clear to me you think contesting is stupid. You claim earlier that it's engaged in by a minority of the ham population, but if that's true... why don't we ever see the bands so full otherwise? Why *don't* we have an SSTV contest/activity weekend that uses every last scrap of spectrum on any open band and even opens up a few dead ones? Judging by the ferocity and diligence with which some SSTV dudes guard the frequencies around 14.230, it's not because the SSTV enthusiasts are too meek and retiring to take up a whole bunch of spectrum ;-)
So I'll ask you again: given that there's such a huge displaced ham population when a contest is going on, where are they the rest of the time?
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 16, 2008
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K0DXC: I still haven't forgotten your comments on QST--and I still hold to what I said. I refuse to reinterate here, but you know what I consider you to be.
I speak from my experiences over the years I have been on the bands--as both a guest of my elmer who is now a SK and then on my own. Can you say the same?
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 16, 2008
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Oh, and by the way, I met my elmer a couple of years after I finished high school, while I was taking electronics training.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by WA4DOU on May 16, 2008
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"Uh, the rest of you non-SSTV'ers wouldn't mind..., would you?"
Wouldn't bother me one bit.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by KF4HR on May 16, 2008
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"It's clear to me you think contesting is stupid."
No Dan, that's not what I meant at all. Contesting is certainly not stupid, but I feel there should be some limitations applied to the activity so others not interested in contesting can operate on every band as well. Actually I'm all for contests, especially those that promote activity on the higher frequency/less used bands, and specialized modes (EME, etc).
My only gripe with contesting is, (and I know I speak for many others), the people that set up and manage these contests need to figure out a way to provide the contest activities, with less disruption to other activities. Unlike a DX pile-ups, nets here and there, or general rag chewing, contesting is the only activity that pretty much creates wall-to-wall operations on the bands they occupy, in some cases during the majority of some weekends. No other amateur activity creates this level of operational disruption to others.
With a little thought by contest managers, I think it would be easy to create contest conditions that would help better accommodate everyone; contesters and non-contesters alike.
KF4HR
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K0DXC on May 17, 2008
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K1CJS States.
K0DXC: I still haven't forgotten your comments on QST--and I still hold to what I said. I refuse to reinterate here, but you know what I consider you to be.
*********************************************
Chris you are one of the biggest stalkers I have seen. I am a 13 year old KID! and you went and STALKED ME ON QRZ.COM! You called me a bad radio operator, poor excuse for a ham, and a lid among many other things. IF you think it is a fun thing to do to pick on kids and the youth in ham radio, keep up all the crud you've been giving me for the past couple of months. I do remember that the last time you were mean to me a bunch of people on the zed got rid of you, maybe it will happen again. I have no idea why you are so snobby to me. I had never even talked or posted anything to you in my entire live and then one day you started quoting my posts on the zed and making fun of them. Then after that you started calling me names, a lid was the first thing you called me. Then you called me a sorry excuse for a radio operator. If anyone wants I can dig back and find links to the threads in which he stalked me.
After a while a few members on qrz.com ganged up on him and since then he has been leaving me alone. Hopefully it stays that way.
Chris, I suggest you stay away from me on the internet.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N3OX on May 17, 2008
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"No other amateur activity creates this level of operational disruption to others. "
Butch, my contention is that there is one and only one reason why contesting creates this level of operational disruption.
Popularity.
It just doesn't take that many hams to fill up a band, if ragchewing were as popular as contesting we'd hear packed bands all the time, even considering the time compression of contests.
We would be in big trouble frequency-space wise if all 330,000 HF-licensed hams were *actually* vying for band space each weekend. Even if each of them gets on *one weekend a year*, that's still 6300 guys a weekend. Each band can support a few hundred SSB QSOs. Imagine how packed it would be if we actually heard activity from all of our licensed hams. Really, take a second with a pencil and the back of an envelope and figure out where to put 330,000 people in the HF spectrum during "normal" operating hours. You can do it, but you need all the bands to be open or you need to limit each person to a very small amout of operating time. I understand that some contesters are on 24 or 48 hours straight, but many just do 4 hours among the chores.
In this context, I have to conclude that contesting is one of the more popular ham activities. The bands get this way because a few thousand people want to get on the radio that weekend and don't want to get on other weekends. If you limit contesting to subbands, you're simply telling a good chunk of the HF-active ham population: "sorry, the bands get too full so you have to pack in tighter in less frequency space than your regular ham license normally allows"
I know it's disruptive, and I've been there, wishing that there wasn't a darn 160m SSB contest to mess up my DXing, for example. But I just figure, well, most of the time there isn't a 160m SSB contest... let me go find something else to do and let these guys use the band.
Every other night there are maybe 10 QSOs going on at any given time.
This is how I see it:
There's no exclusive band space yet for any particular activity outside of phone and CW/digi mode segregation (and possibly a strong band-plan suggestion for modes like AM and VHF weak signal). If you're going to change this, you need to have a solid justification.
Casual weekend QSOs on non-contest weekends enjoy freedom from QRM simply because *overall ham activity is low.* It's simply because of our hundreds of thousands of licencees, only a small fraction of them get on the air. You get 5kHz either side of your center frequency merely because no one is actually on the air!!!
All of the negative effects of contesting are merely due to its popularity and overall human nature.
If I'm right, I just can't see how you would fairly reallocate band space based on these facts. Yes, you could allocate subbands where contests were allowed, but it seems to me that the justification is to take a band that's being fully used that weekend and turning it into two bands, one which is being heavily used and one which is barely being used at all.
Contesting subbands would create exclusive band space for a TRUE minority in ham radio... the every-weekend-active ham. When I put it that way, it almost sounds like a good idea. After all, I might think, who has the real rights to ham radio frequencies, the guys who rarely get on or the guys that get on all the time?!??!
But the actual answer is that all licensed amateurs have *equal* rights to our frequencies, to be used, at will, whenever and wherever they can find a clear frequency. That's the core principle of amateur radio frequency allocations.
Any proposal that would change that rule should have a very solid and fair justification, and I don't think "contesting involves too many people" meets that criterion!
73,
Dan
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by W7ETA on May 17, 2008
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Charlie Chan said, to number one son, "A wise 13 year old does not get into a pissing match with grown up dogs."
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K0DXC on May 18, 2008
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I'm not. I'm telling him to stay away from me on the internet.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 20, 2008
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My suggestion to you Calvin, is that you watch your accusations. I purposely didn't expand on my last post here--but I will if I feel it necessary. There is no 'stalking' being done here--or on QRZ. My comments here and on QRZ were NOT directed to you--you chose to respond as if they were. Here and on QRZ, even though you originate threads you don't 'own' them. If anyone chooses to respond, that is their right--just as it is your right to start the thread. That is the meaning of an 'open forum'.
You chose to get into these site and participate in the discussions on these sites as if you were an 'authority' on some subjects--and way older than a thirteen year old. Then, if someone disagreed with you and attacked your position, you run and hide behind the 'I'm just a kid' excuse--and accuse those people of stalking. If you choose to believe comments are directed at you even though they aren't, that is your problem--but don't make accusations you cannot back up.
My posts here were commenting on some of the things I had come across. I didn't invite your comments, and I didn't expect you to comment. You replied anyway. My prior post to you was just a warning that I remembered your antics on QRZ.
When I was a kid, if I acted toward my elders like you act here and on QRZ, I would have been punished severely. The world certainly is different today, that seldom happens anymore. I welcome discussion with anybody--but if you want to argue with adults and attack their views, you better expect to get some of that flak you put out back. That is not stalking--it is simply how these internet forums work.
If you can't accept that as part of being here on these sites, I would suggest to you that you go back to your own ham site which you say you have and discuss things with your peers, and avoid coming on here and on QRZ--until you're older and can take the heat of the replies.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 20, 2008
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My apologies to the others here for yanking this thread way off course. However, accusations like that beg a responce. As far as I'm concerned, my last post is the end of the matter.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K0DXC on May 21, 2008
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K1CJS;
I didn't want to waste my life doing this, but I just went and looked up the threads (some of them, I didn't have the time to find all the names you've called me) and here are the links for them. Please read through the threads everyone (he will probably edit his posts so you'll have to find it quoted by someone else) and find out the story of what he has done to me. I have no idea why, I even said that I would have no problem being friends with Chris if he stopped calling me names. He decided to refuse me offer I guess.
http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=157044&highlight=k0dxc
http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=158610&highlight=k0dxc
http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=153452&highlight=k0dxc&page=8 - Chris's original post in a thread, (post number 36) suggesting I have way to time on my hands. I will get a few more of his statements...
http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=153452&highlight=k0dxc&page=7 - look at post number 46. He says that his earlier comment about people spending too much time on the internet WAS DIRECTED AT THE ORIGINATOR OF THE THREAD -- THAT WAS ME. I was not "trolling" for replies. It was an interesting topic. There was a lot of talk on the K3, I wanted to see everyones opinion on the radio.
There are also other times when he has hijacked my threads and called me other things which include LID (ticked me off because I always use good operating practices) which was another good example. I didn't have time to go did up that thread.
I hated him calling me a "lifeless loser" I am playing on 3 different baseball teams right now, 2 of them traveling teams. I barely have enough time to eat these days and then he comes in saying I have way to much time on my hands. I am also an "A" student in school. I do tons of homework to keep my grades up. When he makes fun of me I have to watch my back which just makes my life more busy and stressful. If you read more into those threads I linked, you will see others telling Chris to leave me alone and that he shouldn't be picking on Kids. Chris, why did you hijack this article as well? I posted a reply to your statement that "most contesters were lids" that was a very nice reply with nothing hateful in it and then you came and went all paranoid and said how I knew what you "though I was" and you remember my earlier comments and how you disliked me. Keep it in your head. I haven't stated my opinion on you yet.
Chris,
I will offer one last time. I will willingly be your friend and forgive you for what you have said to me in the past if you are willing to quit hijacking my internet threads. I hate to see a good topic ruined like this one. Do you accept my offer?
to eham members:
I am just as sorry to see this topic ruined as you are. I can only hope that Chris comes around and at least becomes neutral with me. I would like to thank one and all for the nice replies to this article. I hope to write more for eham in the future.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 21, 2008
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As I should have done in the beginning, my reply to K0DXC is off list, through e-mail. Apologies.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 22, 2008
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Apologies for my first post to K0DXC--I had already asked him not to post to me on the other site, I suppose he figured this site was different or that I would forget his call. I will not respond to him again, and I ask him to do the same. I will NOT, however stop posting on any thread because a particular person wrote it, however.
I still hold my views on contesting and contesters. If the same thing would happen as will happen here between myself and K0DXC, it would help matters considerably. Please, contesters, if you hear a QSO in progress, don't interrupt it. I know many of you do not, this is directed at those who do.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by NA7CS on May 22, 2008
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I personally do not care for contests or certificates. I, like everyone else has a VFO knob and a power switch if I do not like what I hear.
With that being said, if I do work stations during a contest I will do my best to upload those log contacts for the contesters. Without the log, my contact is a bust for the person(s) I worked. It is something called courtesy.
We are all here for the fun and fellowship this hobby gives us. More often than not we tend to forget this simple fact.
73's
Curt
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Contesting in Ham Radio
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by N2WN on May 22, 2008
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Bravo Cal!
Well written and a fun read. Don't forget the State QSO parties, always a lot of fun and a good way to pick up CW speed, counties and get your call out there.
GL in the contests and hope to see more writing from you in the future!
...and now for a shameless plug:
2008 Tennessee QSO Party: http://www.tnqp.org/
Hope to catch you on the air,
73,
Julius
n2wn
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K0DXC on May 22, 2008
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Chris,
I will apologize for assuming you were a stalker. However, you DID NOT ask me to not post to you. It was me he told you to keep away. Because I am 13 there could be easy harassment issues and I am sure the ARRL wouldn't want one of their employees picking on the youth in ham radio.
anyways, apologies for the stalker comment, I should have held my tongue.
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 23, 2008
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Cal, I will also apologise for getting down on your statements and views so much. You got a little vocal--and I got too crotchety. Maybe we can both step back a little and try starting up fresh.
Your statement about the people breaking the FCC rules is somewhat valid, but I think you'll find more people doing so during contests--because most of them inadvertantly do it. Think about a pile-up--if that isn't interference between stations, what is?? During the pile-ups, the people who sometimes intentionally ignore the 'no interference' regulation will do so with impunity because they know there is little chance of them being caught doing it.
Granted, there may be only a few 'bad apple' contesters, but as with an actual apple barrel, if those bad apples aren't gotten rid of they'll spread their 'rottenness' to the entire barrel eventually.
73, Chris
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K1CJS on May 23, 2008
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BTW, Cal, I am an ARRL volunteer, not an employee--I don't collect any salary for what I do. I do it for the love of the ham radio hobby. 73!
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RE: Contesting in Ham Radio
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by K0DXC on May 23, 2008
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You have a good point Chris;
logically thinking, I don't think that people (and the FCC) actually define a pileup as intensional interference. I guess you could think of it that way if you wanted to though.
Will the bad apples spread? Maybe a little bit. The thing that I am more worried about in contesting is people getting jealous and mad if they get beat after every contest, if that kept happening they might try to cheat. That is the thing that could bring contesting to the ground. If a few people cheated (and got away with it, it isn't to likely that they could get away with cheating these days because of all the log checks contest sponsors do) then others would also get jealous and also try to cheat. But, that probably wouldn't ever happen. There are 95% good hams out there in amateur radio. The other 5% either don't have a clue to what ham radio really is or they enjoy being LIDS and like to cause trouble with people. Can those 5% spread? maybe a little. It would take many generations for them to take over the hobby though, hopefully that never happens.
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