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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?

Claudio (IT9JCB) on May 22, 2008
View comments about this article!

The Ham Radio future: Software Defined Radio?

This short memory will address a very actual debate: Which is better, a classic full analog receiver, a fully DSP receiver, or a right mixture of them?

From a pure theoretical point of view, my own experience (I'm an engineer and SDR is a daily issue for me) suggest me that full digital must be better because this should be the ideal receiver, the perfect one, but now, let turn on my new FT-950 (which is almost a full DSP receiver), my old TS-930S and an old Telefunken single conversion military receiver designed in the 60s.

Let switch the antenna from A-B-C in a crowded 40m band SSB during the night and carefully listen to they all: who is better, or I should say, who is sounding better and smoothed and quiet?

Very strangely the old Telefunken with its mechanical filters (do you remember the Collins?) is the more pleasant to listen to...why?

Now we'll enter in a very mysterious field, the subjective response: is that receiver really better in terms of noise floor, IMD, dynamic range etc etc. The answer is clearly NO.

FT-950 has 95dB of dynamic range, the TS-930S has a ridiculous 75 dB and the Telefunken has about the same figure. So, why from a subjective point of view many others and me prefer the old Telefunken?

Remember that in SDR like radio as the 950, the key receiver functions are done via a floating point DSP, i.e. in an almost perfect way.

For example the digital filters used in the 950 have an incredible selectivity and shape factor, none crystal filter as good it could be, can surpass the powerful digital filters employed in the DSP. So, where is the bug? Why old analog receivers seem to go better?

The answer can be found going back in the past. In the 80s the first CD players entered in the scene: their sound, compared with analog sources as good tape and turntables where horrible. It was metallic and very disturbing. At that time many audio amateurs claimed that the digital sound would never surpass the beauty of the analog sound.

They where wrong: NOW, be care, just NOW and in the past few years, the digital sound has surpassed the analog one, after decades and decades of technology developments in achieving better and better performances from digital audio sources as DVD and others.

So the answer to the question WHICH IS BETTER: the fully digital receiver (SDR) will be better, for sure, but not NOW.

The radio engineers have to spend lot of their time investigating on why an old 60s receiver sounds so good and probably they will find the right answer, but not NOW: SDR is still too young.

Member Comments:
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SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WA2JJH on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Not yet. Problem seems to be with the programers in JA.
Not many adaptive alogorythms are used.
Result: On the lower end DSP radio's like Yeasu's 950 is that many little tweaks are needed by the op.

Read W4LGH's experiences. He is top notch in operating and developed a few of his custom tweaks for different band conditions. He has also gets the latest programming patches from Yeasue.

The so called xtal roofing filters, just plain suck in the 950.

To a new ham, the 950 will over plenty of bang for the buck.
To hams like myself and others, we think an all DSP radio at a low cost is a tall order.

Some of the older Hybrid DSP/conventional radio's like the Kenwood TS-950SDX was an example of not putting DSP all in one basket.

Just my buck $3.80 of opinion.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by NV2A on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I'm just a "lunch-bucket" type ham here, no special technological skills here for sure.

I had a Kenwood TS 940s and then an Icom 746 and loved the receiver in the 746 better. I ended up selling the 746.

Fast forward about 8 years and I'm getting back into ham radio and bought an Icom 756 Pro III. I think I might buy another 746 (non-pro) as I liked the receiver better? Not sure if it is band conditions/solar flux only or maybe the 746 actually did sound better to me. It was certainly easier for me to operate mobile.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W8ZNX on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
maybe for others but not for me

would rather run old analog tube radios
and solid state qrp jobs

future
maybe

but sdr has no sole, no mystery, no romance

give me a 6AG7 in to a 6L6
and a Drake 2B
any day over so called modern digital/ computer lash ups

yours truly
Mac dit dit
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KY6R on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I agree - I have been a computer programmer since 1981, and SDR feels like the earliest of the early as far as "versions" go. Almost like Beta or Version 1, and you know the joke about Version 1 - "Never Buy Version 1" . . . .

However, I have had an Orion and Orion II, and I can tell you that within a few years Ten Tec has done an amazing job at rapidly improving their software.

I think every one of these radios driven by code takes a couple of years to tweak - and I do think the hams in the field and on the user news groups / Yahoo are the best Beta testers the radio companies could ever hope for. Imagine that - enthusiastic, smart and fully engaged testers. I wish testers of my business software were this "passionate".

The hams in these user groups are WAY better than paid Beta testers, and my hats are off to the hams that "put up with" being a guinea pig - and have to pay for it to boot.

But it is also a fun part of ham radio for many - because the Beta tester does get to see and feel the improvement along the way.

And its a lot like digital cameras a few years back. While sensor size is the issue now - I'll never forget how much better a 4 megapixel camera seemed over my first 1 megapixel camera. 8x10 prints looked good for the first time at 4 MP and beyond.

I think the SDR radios will follow this sort of product improvement cycle. If the hardware is decent, the SDR radio's should improve rapidly in the next few years.
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KZ1X on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Wonder why the top two receivers on Rob Sherwood's reports are US-made SDRs?

#1: Elecraft K3
#2: Ten-Tec Orion II

 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by N9DG on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

For the record the Sherwood ranking order is:

1. K3
2. Flex-5000A
3. Orion II

And I would not use the FT-950 as a basis of comparison or a benchmark for assessing the state of amateur radio SDR today. The Flex-5000A is much more advanced technologically and does a better job of capturing the essence of what SDR is really all about.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KD2KU on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think the major problem is to be found in poorly designed audio stages. Everyone’s hearing ability is different and that is where bass and treble controls come into play. Few rigs have that ability.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W4LGH on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
KZ1X said on May 22, 2008..."Wonder why the top two receivers on Rob Sherwood's reports are US-made SDRs?

#1: Elecraft K3
#2: Ten-Tec Orion II "

Maybe, just maybe he's (Sherwood) is a little biased?
And I am certainly not picking on any brand of radios, for that matter, I am giving some serious thought to the new TenTec Omni VII. I love my Yaesu FT-2000 and it has the right mix of Analog and SDR built into the same box. I have watched, listened and tested each version update, and geniune forward progress has been made, and I see a lot more are coming.

However the audio out of either my Drake 4B line, or my Drake TR-7A, is very easy to listen to, using crystal filters, and totally analog..

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4kgh.com


 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WT4T on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think one should step back and look at the term SDR, software defined radio means a open every changing software, up gradeable control system ever changing ,to meed the demands placed upon it for what ever the radio operator wants the rig to do. The ft-2000,proII or any other rig that comes pre packaged ie the DSP are a "live with what you have ", no changes or up grades likely to happen ...ever. Untill another model comes along. These rigs should be called software controlled radios. The only true full function SDR RADIO is the flex rigs such as the 5000a. Every day the rig can change to meet the demands required of it and major changes will be made as required. the other SCR radios have to be what they are and in most cases can not be upgraded.
just a thought.
dale wt4t
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by K6CRC on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I have been involved with audio since college (in the mid 1970s) and this argument is VERY familiar. The 'purists' refused to yield first from vacuum tubes, then from discrete FETs. This refusal was based on purchasing decisions driven by advertising and magazine articles in the 'audiofool' magazines. Hey, I spent all that money, it MUST sound better.

I have a $50 TriPath-chip digital amp in a cheap plastic case, powered by a wall-wart. Driving a pair of old Klipsch cornerhorns, it smokes my EL-84 boutique amp and my Marantz 8B, the classic tube amp of the 1960s. No comparison. The audio mags cannot make any money on advertising from these cheap amps, so you will see few articles on them.

I am new to ham radio, but I see similar issues. The receiver in my modern programmable DSP Yaesu is clearly superior to a similar rig of a few years ago. Technology does march on. The real question is not about specs, but is about what SOUNDS better to YOUR ears? My tube amps sound 'warm' to my ears, and I enjoy that sometimes. But by any objective or subjective measure, my $50 digital amp is better. It is fun to see the tubes light up, but I have no illusions that the HQ180 can even come close to a modern receiver.

As pointed out, modern SDR will always get better, but old radios are what they are. Use and enjoy.
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W2RLB on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hello all , The 950 is not a sdr it is an analog radio with dsp as all the dsp radios are . Understand the sdr 1000 and sdr 5000 radios take an analog signal convert it to digital then back to analog thru the sound card and in doing this processes the signal unlike dsp . If you listen to a sdr radio and compare it to your analog radios you will hear quite a difference . The sdr is much more pleasent to listen to . I own and operate an orion , ts 2000 , ft 1000mp , ft 847 , ft 100d , flex 5000 , and have owned sdr 1000 , ft 920 , ft 1000d , 756 pro , collins 75a4 , and many other radios and i can tell you the sdr is unlike any other analog radios i have owned . Many of the flex owners after a short operating time have sold all there analog radios and only have a flex period . I have never found a dsp radio to perform head and shoulders above a non dsp analog radio and dsp radios only display a very slight advantage in certain band conditions never copy and no copy condition . I have found in ab comparisions the sdr 1000 , sdr 5000 , and orion will 100% copy q5 while the analog dsp radios will be 50% or q3 . Dont believe " i can hear everything thats there " unless you have compared the better radios out there when the band is loaded with strong signals . Rich
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WB2WIK on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future? Reply
by W4LGH on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
However the audio out of either my Drake 4B line, or my Drake TR-7A, is very easy to listen to, using crystal filters, and totally analog..
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4kgh.com<

::I notice that, too. Regardless of lab tests, when the rubber meets the road (antennas connected, band noise, hundreds of strong signals across the spectrum not just at two frequencies, etc), a lot of analog stuff sounds just terrific and very easy to listen to. After hours of operating my DSP stuff, if I go back to the TR-7 and tune around, my ears go "ahhhhhhhhh...." Ditto tuning around with my now 51 year-old 75A4.

I love DSP flexibility, edge-of-cliff filter response, dial-in modulation response and the amazing stability (virtually 0 ppm from cold) of modern gear but it never *sounds* as nice as the older stuff.

Maybe one of these days.

WB2WIK/6

 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AB7E on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

This is a very misguided article. It seems silly to broadly criticize SDR radios (which the FT-950 is not) because the audio in the FT-950 was engineered for intelligibility and not for tonality.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W4LGH on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
WT4T on May 22, 2008 said.."I think one should step back and look at the term SDR, software defined radio means a open every changing software, up gradeable control system ever changing ,to meed the demands placed upon it for what ever the radio operator wants the rig to do. The ft-2000,proII or any other rig that comes pre packaged ie the DSP are a "live with what you have ", no changes or up grades likely to happen ...ever. Untill another model comes along. These rigs should be called software controlled radios. The only true full function SDR RADIO is the flex rigs such as the 5000a. Every day the rig can change to meet the demands required of it and major changes will be made as required. the other SCR radios have to be what they are and in most cases can not be upgraded."

I will have to argue this as I think the FT-2000 and the newer TenTecs are SDR, as much as the Flex1000 & 5000's. Anytime the radio is driven by software, it is a SDR. The difference being that the Flex is open source software, and uses an out-board computer to operate it, the FT-2000 has its own processor and the software, at this point is propriatary, but this it will become open source before it is all over.

My hat's off to Flex, as it is a super radio, but I am not ready to have to slave a PC to a box box to operate. Over the past year, and 5 or so software upgrades to my FT-2000, many new features and controls have been added, so by its truest deffination. it is SDR.

I still say DSP has a long way to go in Ham radio. It will come into it own at some point down the line. Its getting better, but!

73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com



 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KB2HSH on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I have to agree with the sentiment of the one gentleman that prefers tube gear...just not to that degree.

When in the market for a new rig last year, I had contemplated getting a new Argonaut. Being a life-long QRPer, as well as having owned a Ten-Tec Argonaut 505, the thought of having another one was delightful, to say the very least. That is, until I learned that it was a SDR. I eliminated the Argonaut from my list of possibilities.

Professionally I am a PBX Technician. And every day, I deal with the troubles caused by computers, their lousy software, or their horrid drivers. I don't find the idea of software lockups on my RADIO appealing.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WA2DTW on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
KB2HSH wrote: "When in the market for a new rig last year, I had contemplated getting a new Argonaut. Being a life-long QRPer, as well as having owned a Ten-Tec Argonaut 505, the thought of having another one was delightful, to say the very least. That is, until I learned that it was a SDR. I eliminated the Argonaut from my list of possibilities. "

OM- You're missing out on one great rig. Although the Argonaut V is a DSP rig (and has downloadable firmware), it has the feel of an analogue rig. It has some shortcomings (no RF gain, no downward bandswitching, etc) but is a real pleasure to operate.

73
Steve WA2DTW
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WA2DTW on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
KB2HSH wrote: "When in the market for a new rig last year, I had contemplated getting a new Argonaut. Being a life-long QRPer, as well as having owned a Ten-Tec Argonaut 505, the thought of having another one was delightful, to say the very least. That is, until I learned that it was a SDR. I eliminated the Argonaut from my list of possibilities. "

OM- You're missing out on one great rig. Although the Argonaut V is a DSP rig (and has downloadable firmware), it has the feel of an analogue rig. It has some shortcomings (no RF gain, no downward bandswitching, etc) but is a real pleasure to operate.

73
Steve WA2DTW
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by N8KOM on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think that this point has been touched on but not articulated fully in this discussion:

The Sherwood list is measuring and ranking based on technical parameters, which in many, but not all cases, should translate to end user perception of "performance".

But "performance" or end user perception is not driven by technical specifications alone. There are subjective characteristics that a radio has that play directly into the overall feeling of perception of quality and performance by an end user.

So SDR is here, SDR is coming, SDR continues to develop and mature. Like the audio recording analogy, at some point, it may be possible for the SDR to capture and exceed the "subjective" performance of NON-SDR rig characteristics - And this will not be achieved by reaching and then exceeding the technical parameter benchmarks over and over, whithout also taking into consideration the end users ability to translate those (or missing, or yet to be considered) technical parameters into "perception" of performance and quality. It is quite possible to over-design something, but not many people think in those terms.

Steve N8KOM
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W9OY on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
With respect to Rob Sherwood I'm not sure Alan knows his patootie from a hole in the ground. If you look at Sherwood's business its about improving friggin DRAKE RADIO'S so to say he has some kind of SDR bias is disingenuous or just shows a lack of knowledge. If anyone is biased its Alan and his constant bilge about how wonderful old radios are. I owned a bunch of Drakes and they were noisy especially in the audio chain their front ends were lousy and the AGC stunk, and nothing had change but the date regarding that. W8JI likes his Drakes however he basically gutted them and rebuilt all the innards. A pretty poor advertisement if you have to gut a radio to make it into something acceptable. I did this to a TS-820 once and I learned a lot about how not to build a receiver in the process.

My experience with Rob is that he is spot on in trying to be objective, especially in his technical analysis and in his advancement of the state of the art.

With respect to SDR it is a multiply defined a constantly moving target. My K-1 has some sort of "DSP" in it. I have used external DSP's and I have used a Pegasus and an Orion, and in my mind none of these save the Pegasus are really SDR in the modern sense. These radio's including the Orion in terms of their SDR capability are pretty much toys. The processor in the Orion is basically similar to a palm pilot or a cell phone, hardly breath takingly inspiring

I presently use the Flex Radio lineup and I think this lineup more than any other in my mind represents a true SDR. The DSP in the Flex line resides on the computer in other words the radio is somewhat analogous to a dual conversion receiver. The first conversion resides in hardware the second in software on the computer. The signal hits the antenna and is direct converted to a baseband which is fed through something called a QSD then to an analogue to digital converter. You can think of this as if the signal is presented to this QSD/ADC and the signal is sliced up into a bunch of snapshots and then fed into the computer memory for further processing.

This is the first conversion is analogue to digital. The second conversion is a digital representation of the signal manipulated in software and then again made analogue and presented to the audio chain for your listening pleasure. The band width of the signal at its presentation to the second conversion is what ever the bandwidth of the ADC is, for example 48K, 96K or 192 khz. This means you have a 192 khz slice of the band and all of the signals contained within to analyze. This is a bonanza. It means if you present the signal to a pan adapter, you can see every signal contained in a 192 khz swath of spectrum. You can point your mouse on any signal of interest and click and bingo you are listening to THAT signal. That means you spend NO time listening to noise, and you know every second where the signals are in that 192khz swath.

Once you choose a signal to listen to, the software builds a filter around that signal of a specified and software definable nature, and it then detects the signal according to the mode you desire, whether LSB or FM or AM or DSB or CW or digital etc etc. As new modes show up, its merely a task of writing new code to decode the mode (ahh the alliteration). The signal is then sent to the audio path. How good is the audio? How good is a 24bit stereo signal? It beats the snot out of ANYTHING else in ham radio period. You want to tailor the audio? Easy there is a graphic equalizer in software just for your desire. You want the signal routed to the headphones? Good, there is a mixer in software to route the audio. You want it to speakers? The mixer can send it there. You want it to both speakers and headphones and that old fashioned reel to reel tape deck over in the rack? Easy the mixer can do that simultaneously. You want to tailor your mic audio? The equalizer can do that too. You too can sound like you live in a cave. You can have 3 antennas connected at once to the radio as well as a separate RX antenna for the beverages, or you can have outboard transverters. If you set up a transverter you can tell the program what the offset is, and which direction the transverter tunes and the readout in the radio will take into account all that data and give you a true readout of the exact frequency you are listening to, and it can do this for every transverter you connect based on the band you choose. It will also precisely limit the power out so if one transverter needs 5 watts and one needs one watt the radio will not over drive. Since the radio is full duplex you can listen to your transmitted signal in the bandwidth of a satellite transponder without a second receiver.

There are built in keyers and both paddle and keyboard and memory keyer and built in and speech processing and audio keyer features for contesting. If you want a 4khz wide ESSB signal you can do that or if you want a 2 khz wide ssb signal you can do that. If you want to control other programs like PSK31 you can use a couple of pieces of software that simulate control cables and audio cables. This means you can hook up your contesting program and have it call CQ and key the transmitter as well as control frequency, or have the DX cluster control the frequency at the click of a mouse with no additional wiring, all done in software.

The way the Flex 5000 works, with the addition of the second receiver, is you can actually run 2 radio single op (SO2R) from the single Flex 5K The reason is the Flex 5K runs 3 simultaneous processes which are on all the time. The radio is not half duplex like most transceivers it is full triplex so you can listen on 2 separate bands and even transmit on a third band all at once. Try that with your Yaesu or Kenmore. The radio without the second receiver is full duplex and it has built in the software presently 2 receivers so you can work split. This can be expanded to up to 16 receivers those one wonders how you would listen to 16 receivers. IN other words if you can think and you can write the code you can do it. It is NOT hardware limited except in the grossest of senses. In fact at the present time it is our imagination that limits the radio, not the radios capability.

We are largely bound by the notion of KNOB and serial one dimensional processes. That is our experience. The radio can be made to do multi dimensional data presentation and it can be made to respond to parallel inputs. This presentation of the software does not presently exist, but it could in the near future. There is nothing that precludes this from being implemented. For example lets say you are in VHF contest. You could have the radio displaying half a dozen bands on half a dozen pan adapters, with audio spaced around various points in the shack, and have the audio of the pan adapter in focus presented to the speaker set in front of you all based on where you point your mouse or perhaps some kind of midi surface controller or a game controller. Instead of making the interface to look like a radio. You may want it to look like a fighter jet where signals are presented like bogie's to be picked off in a contest You could program your antennas to respond automatically and have the radio sequence preamps etc as you squeeze the PTT. All done in a million lines of software, all done in a software defined radio, and all extremely plastic and amenable to change. If you don't like the way it works and you have the first clue about coding, you can rewrite the code and make the radio do what YOU want it to do. The company does not hold you hostage to what they think a radio should be. There are several independent threads of coding going on for the flex line, written by people what have particular interest and as good ideas are developed these are included in the main trunk. The software is updated almost daily on something called the SVN and you can down the most bleeding edge version, or you can use the release version, or you can have a dozen different version all residing on your computer available for you use at the click of your mouse. If you have both a SDR-1K and a Flex 5K you can run 2 totally separate SDR radios at once. I commonly use one radio for rag chewing on SSB while using the other to zip around working DX on CW on various bands. I use an Acom amp and my antennas are auto switching so I can ragchew with the boys on 75 while breaking some pileup on 40 or 160 CW. It satisfies my ADD.

There is a program called CW skimmer that the raw 192 khz baseband signal can be fed to and that program will define and decode every CW signal on the bandwidth fed to it. Click on the station you want to work and the radio comes up on freq ready to have a QSO. If you knew the callsign of every signal on the band imagine sitting in the cockpit of your radio fighter jet picking off the multipliers while the jokers with their KNOBS are getting their clocks cleaned. If you knew the callsign of every signal on 2 or 3 bands you could use some kind of neural net software to order those callsigns in a way that would give you the greatest advantage of working them according to some statistical modeling. If you think it you can do it.

So to answer the question: "SDR ham radio of the future?", the answer is no. It is the ham radio of the present. All that other crap is dead and dying ham radio of the past. If that's too in your face go play with your KNOB.

73 W9OY
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KY6R on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
After sitting in front of a computer all day programming, the last thing I want is a computer front-ending a radio. I also don't want a ton of cables between a computer and my radio.

For DX-ing, the ability to separate the noise from the signal and separate close in signals is where its at for me. Many rigs do this very well these days - and a few in the "under $2000.00" class. The Ten Tec Jupiter is one example.

Its funny that someone mentioned the Ten Tec Argonaut V. Now there is one little radio that I swear sounds as good as some of the best tube radios I have used in the past. It may not have all of the QRM and QRN filtering controls, but it does have one heck of a great sound.

In fact, just for "fidelity", I like the Argonaut V's sound better than the Orion II, but for DX-ing in the nasty pileups - its the Orion II.

The FT-2000D also has a very nice sound - even though it might not be ranked as high as some of the other rigs by the technical testing labs.

In the end - you have to be able to use the right hammer for the job - and the radio that has your required feature set and good sound is the radio that is right for you.

Since our ears vary, I expect the "best rig" will vary person to person.
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by N5EG on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Phil Harmon, VK6APH gave an exceptionally good paper about SDR at Dayton this year. He looked at how close to the antenna could the ADC be placed? His conclusion is if you have about $55,000, you can put it right there. If you have $100, then not so close.

He showed how to achieve about 121 dB of dynamic range using the $100 dollar device, switchable analog RF bandpass filters between the antenna and the ADC, and an FPGA to digitally down-convert / decimate / CIC filter the samples. That's not half bad.

Also, he showed how 3rd-order intercept is not a meaningful measurement when using an ADC. Because of how ADC's work, the number is worse at low input signal levels, and much better at high input signal levels. He also discusses dithering the ADC to improve the spurious-free dynamic range.

If you have a technical interest, I highly recomend reading through Phil's slides. TAPR was supposed to have a link to the presentations, but it's not there right now. If I can find it, I'll post the link.

-- Tom, N5EG


 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by IT9JCB on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To all and N9DG...

Don't be surprised about the K3 (yes I agree it's the best) but it's not a true SDR radio: if you look to its diagram you will find a superb crystal filters set (8.215 MHz) just after the first conversion. So it's more like an analog one.....

73s Claudio
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by IT9JCB on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
AB7E wrote: "This is a very misguided article. It seems silly to broadly criticize SDR radios (which the FT-950 is not) because the audio in the FT-950 was engineered for intelligibility and not for tonality.".........

I used the FT-950 as example but I've also tried many other modern radios (as the FT-9000..IC7800 etc). My intention was not to criticize SDR radios...on the contrary I love them....a lot (I'm just designing one for my company).
The main issue of the article concerned about the listening pleasure, so I strongly encourage US and Japanese engineers to use users feedback to improve their products in such a way that one day we all could state: digital is better for sure !!

73s Claudio
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WB2WIK on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Problem is, just because it bench tests well, will it really fly?

SDR or not, "performance" measurements don't always tell the story.

Here's an example: I had a Flex SDR1000 for six weeks. It was fun to use, although it did require my purchase of a $300+ sound card I did not already have.

Now, for "performance." The SDR1000, like many other rigs I've tried at home, couldn't deal with the 1.5 MW e.r.p. signal from KVOH, a SW BC station very close to me (and also aimed at my location). No matter what I tried, the BC signal created images or artifacts in the amateur bands (it transmits on 9.975 MHz and 17.775 MHz, just below 30m and 18m). I did contact the factory and tried some stuff, nothing worked. It's a hardware issue.

Under identical conditions (same antenna, same everything else), my 30 year-old TR-7 handles the BC signal just fine: No artifacts, no images, no evidence the BC station's even on the air, until I tune across it, or within a few kHz of it.

Admittedly, this is a *really* strong signal, probably about equivalent to an amateur station operating just outside the ham bands with 1500W carrier about a city block away. But it's really there, and the station's been on the air many years, and because it's just outside two major HF bands it's not so easy to eliminate. (Coaxial stub type traps aren't nearly good enough, the Q's not there, even with hardline. I haven't tried a very high-Q L-C circuit trap, feeling, "Why should I have to?" when my older gear has no issues with this condition.)

I'd like to try to SDR5000 to see if it does better in this regard.

To me, a rig can be the greatest thing in the world but if it doesn't work at my location it doesn't do me much good. The problem is completely transparent to the old TR-7.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W4UUC on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Sherwood ranks the receivers by "Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced". If you read the reviews by Rob and his articles relating to analog vs digital. You will discover that he is yet to find the perfect digital radio. My K2 had a great receiver, but I found ssb to be quite rough on the ears after listening a while. My 1990 Icom Pro 765 is ranked #8 and is much more pleasurable to listen to. It is too bad that we can no longer purchase a new radio that has such a combination of sensitivity and mellow sound. I hope a digital radio with such capabilities arrives on the market. I only have two 765 and parts availability are almost nil.
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by G3SEA on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
YES !

It's an inevitable technological progression.

KH6/G3SEA
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AA4PB on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
When we get to the point where the antenna connects to an analog to digital converter and everything from there on is done with ones and zeros they we'll have a true Software Defined Radio. Right now every "SDR" has an analog front end and only gets converted to digital at some lower IF (or audio) frequency. The fact that even the Flex units plug into a sound card should tell you that the digital processing is being done at a pretty low frequency.

 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by N5EG on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Here's the link the SDR presentations given at Dayton this year (thanks to Scotty Cowling, WA2DFI).

http://www.hamsdr.com/StartHere.htm

-- Tom, N5EG


 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by N4RLL on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
YEAH!!! What W9OY said.

-- N6EY
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KG6YV on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
OK, its probably a given that new technology evolves to being superb after iterations of development. I liked the CD analogy but I have one closer to home for most hams.

I owned several of the fist HF rigs with "synthesizers".

I still own and love my Kenwood TS 940SAT, but the phase noise that I hear as white noise really sucks compared to my new Yeasu FT-2000 OR even my FT-1000D which was a "mature" synthesized rig.

If man evolved to where he is today, maybe SDR's are about at the stage of maturity that man was when he discovered metal, no, wait maybe SDRs are evolving faster. Ok, maybe they are about where man was when Newton wrote his laws of physics.

I guess we won't be launching an SDR to the moon for a while. it took 400 years from Newton's work to Apollo.


Greg
KG6YV
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AF6IT on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Will the PERFECT radio EVER arrive? Won't our expectations continue to climb as the level of technology increases? Wouldn't we find a reason to gripe now matter what they offered us?

The current state of radio performance is excellent! Sure there is room for nostalgia, but the IF DSP rigs do perform quite well indeed- no comparison at all. And they will continue to be refined.

The REAL issue to me for the new breed of rig is not audio quality at all; ERGONOMICS and LONGEVITY are my concerns. Blasted nested menus and lack of quite sufficient detail, particularly on the part of the import manufacturers leave me a little disappointed. That and how the mean life expectation of most of the newest rigs is less than ten years (ultimately affecting resale value even if you do plan on upgrading frequently).

But I like much of what I see in Ten Tec's approach, and also in the amazingly low prices of some of the newest entry level rigs (an omen of what is to come as a result of modern manufacturing efficiency I hope!). So I still find reason to be encouraged. I could overlook a lot indeed when entry level IF DSP HF-6m rigs cost in the low $600's! I hope and suspect we will soon witness this trend break into the mid level rigs. What was once an $1800 dollar rig is now below $1500 and hopefully on the way to $1000 or slightly under as new rigs with fewer but more capable components get rolled out. That will render a bigger & better bang for the buck than EVER before.

And while the old classics may be getting harder to find parts for, they will continue to be admired & enjoyed much as the muscle cars of the 60's do, quite unlike our more recent cars & ham radios. At least they CAN live on! Each has its place, but each plays a different role which simply cannot be equaled by its counterpart of opposite generation. I for one am not willing to sacrifice the advantages of an IF DSP rig, (or of my 4 cyl Acura) at least not for my everyday rig.

AF6IT
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AB7E on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

AA4PB: "Right now every "SDR" has an analog front end and only gets converted to digital at some lower IF (or audio) frequency."

For ham radio, that is certainly true, but SDR radios already exist at least in the government arena that directly sample almost to a GHz, possibly even above.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W7ETA on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for an interesting article.

Many years ago, I heard a song "Que Sera Sera".

Fortunately, there is a place in ham radio for one tube 6L6 xmitters and SDR rigs.

73
Bob
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by DIPOLE on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
My money is always on my Drake R7A. The other rig in the shack is a Yaesu with lots and lots of DSP, fancy LCD graphs, diversity receive, etc. and cost $$,$$$. But I'm always drawn back to the Drake for just pure listening pleasure.
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KA0W on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I much prefer what comes out of my TS-850S and FT-1000D when compared to my Orion II. I can listen to the non-SDR rigs much longer, they have a more natural sounding receiver. As for the ultimate receiver specs, most ops will not appreciate the "best" specs, especially the ops on phone where wider IF bandwidths are needed. I have a preference for the pre IF DSP rigs, just a better feel and better "listenability" for my ears.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KQ9J on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You mean if I get an Flex-5000 I can't sit here and play with my knob anymore?
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by K6YE on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Claudio,

Nice stimulating article.

Lee, W9OY, made some very nice comments.

I was conversing with K6AER, Mike Higgins, about the newer radios and he mentioned great things about the Flex, K3, and Orion but not the FT-2000D or the 950.

As someone said previously, "each user has an opinion."

I still have a Yaesu FT-1000D, and Icoms IC-756 and IC-775DSP. My favorites are the 775 for SSB and the 1000 for CW. IMHO, SDR sets are great, with tons of features, totally upgradeable, and are a lot less expensive than the FT-9000 or IC-7800 but after 47 years as a ham, I still like knobs (and Drakes).

I enjoy surfing the bands with a tuning knob. I was an engineer for 36 years, did Tier-3 tech support, and wrote application programs for a Telcom. When I got home after 10 hour days and flipped on the radios, I found that I did not have a desire for lots of menus or keyboard communication work. It is and was iambic paddles and/or a microphone and manually turning the tuner.

I think ham radio is great in that there is at least one interesting aspect, out of many, for nearly anybody with an interest. The same can be said for rigs, antennas, amplifiers, etc.

Have fun and enjoy!!!

Semper Fi,

Tommy - K6YE
DX IS

 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by VE6CNU on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
A few months ago I saw a TV show that asked the question, "Are digital recording studios as good or better than the old analog studios that recorded everything to analog tape?" They used a "double-blind" scientific approach to find out. First, it appears that there is only one truly analog "world class" recording studio left in the U.S. (in L.A.) and it went head to head against a "state-of-the-art" digital recording studio. They used a number of "experts" in the recording field (I can't recall the exact number, but each one has wonderful credentials). A live band was recorded and played back with alternating sound bytes, known only to the engineers as to the origin (analog or digital). The bottom line clearly was that it was impossible for these experts to tell the difference. With all the arguments pro/con SDR for amateur use, why not do a similar experiment? I would suggest it could be done using both "on-air" signal sources and carefully controlled laboratory conditions (synthesized signals). In this way the human ear could decide which equipment works better. To make the test fair, one person would have to control the radio and the other would only be allowed to listen with a blindfold on. Ultimately, I believe the best of today's technology would win out (SDR).

Jerry, VE6CNU
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KB4QAA on May 22, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
<<I guess we won't be launching an SDR to the moon for a while. it took 400 years from Newton's work to Apollo. :>>>

Good news: you are wrong! The HPSDR group is developing an SDR system for use in future Suit-Sat launches from the International Space Station. They are planning to have it operational around the end of 2008.

FWIW, radios with DSP are NOT Software Defined Radios. Having a prefilters does not change the fact that the Flex Radios ARE fully software defined.


B.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W4LGH on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
W9OY said..."With respect to Rob Sherwood I'm not sure Alan knows his patootie from a hole in the ground. If you look at Sherwood's business its about improving friggin DRAKE RADIO'S so to say he has some kind of SDR bias is disingenuous or just shows a lack of knowledge. If anyone is biased its Alan and his constant bilge about how wonderful old radios are. I owned a bunch of Drakes and they were noisy especially in the audio chain their front ends were lousy and the AGC stunk, and nothing had change but the date regarding that."

Oh yes, I know the difference, and I didn't say Sherwood WAS biased, I said maybe he was biased? Also if you are such a lover of Rob, then you'd know that he thinks the AGC in the old Drakes are GREAT!

I own both NEW and OLD, and I truly enjoy my Yaesu FT-2000. What I have said about the old is I enjoy the AUDIO quality from them. I have never said that I would give up the NEW completely for the OLD. However I could be very happy , if I had to give up all of my radios, to keep the Drake TR-7A.

I have said that ,in my opinion, DSP in Ham radios have a long way to go, before being truly astounding. Some of the features in DSP work very well, while others fall off quickly. Being a data engineer, I certainly believe in digital format. Once in digital those 0's and 1's can be completely edited, anyway one sees fit, but in order to interface back to the HUMAN world, everything MUST come back to analog.

I like what one writter said, that performance is one thing, but it is how the end user relates to the overall operation of the radio, as to whether it is a great radio or not. I have no need or desire to DIG out the 1x1 signal in the noise and work him. It won't change my life at all. I'll catch him when the band is better.


73 de W4LGH - ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com

 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by ZENKI on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
While many appear to be impressed by SDR receiver design, the other side of the SDR coin is the transmitter performance.

Many SDR transmitters have high levels of spurious products around their transmit signals. While it is nice bragging about all the high levels of receiver performance being achieved, its disappointing seeing so little attention being focussed on the transmitters performance. After all today its the poor state of transmitter design that is limiting most of us from exploiting such high receiver performance numbers.

The state of SDR transmitter design is poor and most SDR transceivers are not exploiting advanced adaptive methods for IMD and spurious cancellation that we see in many advanced military and commercial SDR designs. The ADAT transceiver might be first ham design to use these advanced design techniques.

While the current state of poor transmitter IMD and occupied continues, trying to squeeze more performance out of receivers is becoming a exercise of peeing into the wind and it might be even be an exercise in futility. Lets get the ball rolling in trying to convince ham radio manufacturers to start producing excellent transmitters. Its sad to see that the 3 top radios on Sherwoods list all have transmitters with poor IMD and ALC performance.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KD8K on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> FWIW, radios with DSP are NOT Software defined
> radios.Having a prefilters does not change the fact
> that the Flex Radios ARE fully software defined.

That is a interesting question to me, how do you define what is a "software defined radio"? Radio's such as the K3 and the Orion do have a analog to digital converter to convert the signal to a digital format, a processor which provides for filtering, detection and AGC, and a Digital to Analog converter which converts it back to a analog format. To me, this has at least some elements of being "software defined". The main difference I can see is that the Flex does the processing on a external Windows XP computer rather then internally with a processor inside the radio, and the use of roofing filters inside the Orion and K3, which improves wide spaced dynamic range numbers, because of the limited dynamic range of current analog to digital converters.

73,

John, KD8K
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AD3G on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I must agree with Alan, W4LGH. Working a weak signal squeezed in between two huge BC signals is not the most important factor for me.
Rob Sherwood rates his receiver performance by dynamic range,narrow spaced,in which mostly new but some older rigs are at the top of the list.
He also writes about the "ticks ,clicks & pops" in DSP based radios,which are AGC issues you won't find in older non-dsp radios.
Personally, I love my Icom 775DSP and Yaesu FT2000,but I find the audio from my TR7 to be more pleasant if I'm going to be listening a long time,it's less "fatiguing" to my ears,no to mention the clicks and pops DSP introduces to the audio that is absent in the TR7.
To get back to topic,SDR is certainly the wave of the future I'm sure,but it's going to be few years before it gets to it's full potential,which it currently isn't even close to yet.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AB2KT on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It's amusing that these analog-vs-digital arguments always compare the highest-end systems. Comparisons like that completely miss what is ultimately a much more important test: the one at the *low* end.

A $100 digital playback system is vastly superior to any $100 analog system. I would happily take bets on an A-B comparison between a $20 MP3 player and a $20 cassette player.

Similarly, for its purpose, a $30 SoftRock TRX will outperform radios costing 10 times more.

Part of what makes digital technology important is the level of performance it makes available to *all* users, not just the ones in a position to chase after the best possible performance.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AB0WR on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
ab2kt:
<<<<<<<<<<It's amusing that these analog-vs-digital arguments always compare the highest-end systems. Comparisons like that completely miss what is ultimately a much more important test: the one at the *low* end.

A $100 digital playback system is vastly superior to any $100 analog system. I would happily take bets on an A-B comparison between a $20 MP3 player and a $20 cassette player.

Similarly, for its purpose, a $30 SoftRock TRX will outperform radios costing 10 times more.

Part of what makes digital technology important is the level of performance it makes available to *all* users, not just the ones in a position to chase after the best possible performance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Very good observation!

tim ab0wr
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by N3EVL on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
<<I guess we won't be launching an SDR to the moon for a while. it took 400 years from Newton's work to Apollo. :>>>

Implying that it will take another 400 years to do this? Not even close! Progress in technology is *exponential* so you won't have long to wait.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by K4PDM on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"If you don't like the way it works and you have the first clue about coding, you can rewrite the code and make the radio do what YOU want it to do. The company does not hold you hostage to what they think a radio should be."

I beg to differ. The SDR user is indeed being held hostage in this manner. He is held hostage to a box that is operated by mouse, keyboard, and interfaced with a computer monitor.

That's my idea of what a computer should be. A radio is something different. And my hobby just happens to be radio. [wink]
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W2WO on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Like most of us, I have had both. My current rig is an Orion.

I agree that the audio from the older rigs was easier on the ears. (My favorite was an HQ-170.) In all technical measurements the new digital rigs are ahead, but there are subjective factors that do not appear in the measurements. Perhaps the audio is too good today, and some us prefer older circuits/components that lost some of the faster transients. (Bass and treble controls do not accomplish quite the same thing.) I wonder how much design attention goes into "comfortable" audio, as a separate design topic?

Bill - W2WO
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W9JCM on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Ok how is a FT 950 related to a SDR radio??? Software Defined Radio......... Flex Radio, K3 maybe a Ten Tec can go in the mix but in no way has the big 3 made anything that resembles or is close to any software definition.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W9JCM on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Yes "Sherwood" had it out for Flex Radio thats nothing new. And man they are having some issues with that K3.
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by N3QE on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
A couple of points here:

1. Many SDR's with technically excellent specs really suck rocks when it comes to user interface. Maybe younger guys than me think that menu buttons and LCD screens are the best way to tune through a band. But I don't think so, give me knobs any day!

2. There is a certain appeal to really really simple receivers. Some love direct conversion receivers. Others (me) love single-conversion receivers. All the processing and filtering in a 3-conversion + DSP radio add a certain level of audio "mush" to the output that is not well represented by specsmanship.

Note that my points don't really say anything about SDR vs other radios... it has to do with simplicity and directness of user interface and conversions vs specsmanships. Same things apply to lots of other things in radio, electronics, life!

The user interface issues certainly apply to a large number of non-SDR radios. When I read a QST review and in the first couple of paragraphs the reviewer is talking about mode setting page 78 option 3 and how it interacts with mode setting page 44 option 7, I'm pretty sure that it's not the radio for me :-).
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AC7CW on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think we "imprint" on whatever type of radio we start off with. I started hamming doing CW with a regenerative pre-WW2 navy receiver and voice was all AM in those days. I've never 100% liked the sound of radios since then, especially SSB!! I have to use a graphic equalizer and am constantly playing with it to adjust the audio.

I bought one of the old regenerative radios I had originally a couple of years ago and I want to put it on the air now just to see if it sounds "better"!
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AC7CW on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Another "imprint" thingy, I enjoyed hamming more with my Heathkit radios than any others. Looking at the specs, there is no reason to believe that those radios were going to be the best by far but I remember operating with them as being fun. I have an SB-102 with all of the available accessories, waiting for a refurb, we are relocating and I'm going to do that work when things settle down. I was trying to figure out what the appeal of an SB102 was to me and finally I realized that 99% of radios are butt ugly!! That 102 is visually maybe the most pleasant to look at and operate as an operater. I worked as a tech for decades and one thing I learned, the engineers don't know ugly from beautiful and they don't care, maybe that's why so much electronics stuff is ugly. I'm a photographer and seeking "beautiful" all the time. I'm going to get another 102 and build a SDR radio into it and see if that doesn't "sound" better...
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WA0ZZG on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Those of you that have kept up with the current crop of software radios, would you suggest it may be time to upgrade? I have an early 90's FT-1000D that I have cleaned, aligned and installed the Inrad roofing filter. It has every filter position filled in both receivers. It is also the last radio that I may be able to maintain on my own.
Dave
WA0ZZG
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W4IA on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Personally I prefer a rig with a rf gain control and some attenuation. Then I can shut off the AGC and ride the RF gain if a strong adjacent station attempts to pump the AGC and desense everything. A lot of people don't know how to use the RF gain, IF shift/PBT, AGC, and expect crystal filters and/or DSP to do everything. The operator still has the ultimate control. If the radio is analog, you have a series of knobs. If true SDR, there is the mouse.

The manufacturers assume you know how the RF gain, shift, etc., works and there is no longer a nice explanation of what you can do with each function.

Oops, excuse me, my rig just EMailed me that it worked 9A2ZH and Z38C on 50 mhz while carrying on a conversation on Southcars, printed the QSL cards, mailed them, and posted the QSOs to Log Book of the World.

Boy, is this fun! Wish I had more time to ham.

 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by IT9JCB on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To K6EY et all...
I'm really impressed on how many comments I've got back writing this short article, it's really a challenge to read and analyze all the opinions but summarizing I've realized as follows:

- there are white and black...and some gray ones. Analog lovers, fully digital lovers and midway.

- the guy with the strong BCL problem on SDR-1000 is an evidence that a fully SDR radio with an analog to digital converter attached directly to the antenna is not still possible with the todays technology.

- Many hams still prefer the sound of their old style radios but there are also many SDR-5000 fanatics.

My personal opinion about the sound is that many rigs are not well designed in the audio stages, if you look to the diagram of a $10000 rig you'll see that the budget for the final audio PA is about $1...!!!

For which concern the perfect SDR which should be a true SDR with the pleasant sound of an old tube type receiver hereafter is reported the "magic" combination that I'm addressing for my own project:

* An ultra-narrow passive pre-selector "pin diode" tuned over 1.8-30 MHz.

* A 14-bits high speed ADC sampling >80 MHz.

* A digital signal processor based on FPGA and DSP

* An old-style, audio, digital to analog converter and associated filtering, as the ones used in high-end audio.

* A tube based audio power amplifier, at least 10W out.

* A complete set of adaptive DSP algorithms "hears based".

Science Fiction...???

73s Claudio
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by KI4WGI on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I also considered AC7CW's approach....I have 2 "junker" HW-101's and have considered placing a softrock RX/TX in place of the IF & exciter of one of them. However, to start I'm going to add an IF jack out on my "good" one and and work out the bugs on the receive end first.

Although I love old boatanchors...a Navy TCS receiver is one of my next restoration projects, I also enjoy the other extreme too!

As long as you can get on the air and make contacts (without trashing anyone with QRM!) than who cares how you do it!

73's
Steve
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by AK2B on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It seems to me that there is some confusion as to what really is an SDR. My idea of an SDR was the original Flex SDR-1000. I think I was wrong. It appears that an SDR is any radio that has substituted functions that were once done in hardware with functions that are now done in software. Most notably, things like modulation/demodulation and various forms of filtering fall into that category. Because the software/firmware to do this lies inside the radio instead of an external computer makes no difference in what constitutes an SDR. Also, at what stage in the radio the DSP is located makes no difference. The Flex radios take I and Q information (using a Quadrature Sampling Detector (Tayloe Detector)) right from a direct conversion receiver and passes the audio information along to a computer for processing. The K3 uses a standard 8Mhz IF and a 15KHz second IF straight into a DSP instead of a computer. There are other radios on the market that pretty much work the same way. You may already own an SDR and just don’t know it. Arguing the merits of one method over another is kind of pointless. You can have it either way. Personally, I like having a box that doesn’t need anything more than an antenna, power supply and paddles. Sometimes though, it’s fun to play with those little SoftRock radios.
As far as Elecraft not caring about the audio quality of the K3, that is definitely not the case. The radio sounds great - as good or better than anything I have ever heard, including my R4B. And, recent changes to the transmit firmware, from what I understand, have put it up there with the best ever. I think the designers of the K3 intend to keep it at the top of the list.
Isn’t it nice to see three American manufactures at the top of Rob Sherwood’s list? I suspect that the big three Japanese companies are not going to sit on their thumbs and let this pass unnoticed. Things could get interesting.

Tom, AK2B
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WB2WIK on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Claudio, I like your idea.

Of course if we really wanted the rig to be bullet proof and more user serviceable, we could use 6146s in the transmitter P.A.

No kidding. Cheaper than solid state, more robust, more forgiving, will survive lightning storms better...could power from HV DC:DC converter that would only cost about $50.

SDR typically implies modern solid-state stuff doing the work, but it doesn't have to be that way.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W4VR on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Some hams with SDRs tell me it's a "work in progress." So, perhaps there is a future for these radios.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by WD0CT on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Just to nitpick a bit, someone mentioned that the ft950 audio was designed for intelligibility and not fidelity. If you check out the -6db receive audio response on ssb and am you will see it designed for neither. Think lifeless, mind numbingly narrow.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W7LV on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It only took 55 years to go from U.S. Patent 1,103,503 (Robert Goddard's adaptation of the LaVal nozzle) to landing at Tranquility base...mostly with slide rules. And Goddard and von Braun's lifespans and working careers overlapped.
 
SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by K0RGR on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Yeah, in many ways, I don't think they've built the equal of the Collins 75A-4 yet. But in a contest, there are a lot of other rigs I'd prefer to use. Sherwood rates the Drake R-4C right up there with the best of today, and I've used those, too - they are great radios.

But I've never seen anything like the Flex demo I saw here a couple years back. One of our locals is deeply involved with Flex development, and he gave our club a very nice demo, using the Flex SDR-1000 for moonbounce. Not only did he make an inaudible moonbounce signal sound like it was S9, he uncovered another much weaker one that you'd never have heard with an analog radio.

I think that serious weak-signal folks will flock to the SDR's. Those of us who are more casual users may not.

Indeed, the closest receiver audio I've ever heard to the old Collins was a Yaesu FT-902DM I owned many years ago. It just had that same warm sound to it. It's resemblance to a KWM-2 was probably not an accident. But the receiver was much less selective than the older Collins - due to some poor design issues in the IF.
 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by W6RMK on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
KG6YV wrote: I guess we won't be launching an SDR to the moon for a while. it took 400 years from Newton's work to Apollo.

Sooner than you think, if not already. There's an SDR orbiting Mars (Electra on MRO) that we built at JPL, and it's been reprogrammed in flight to filter out an inband interfering signal from a science instrument. Come Sunday, when Phoenix lands on the surface, it will be communicating through that SDR.


 
RE: SDR: Ham Radio of the Future?  
by K9TEN on May 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I won't go into the science of "SDR" radios vs "Others" but if we make comments about things at least get the facts correct! I have a Flex 5000A and so far it is the Best "Audio to my ears" sounding radio I have ever used! Some of my rigs I have owned:
JRC JST-245 (Rare radio-Most Hams have never seen one much less owned one-Awesome Audio!),FT-1000D, FT-990,FT-980,FT-897D,FT-857D,FTR-101,FT102,TS-950,TS-940,TS-930,TS-480HX,IC-765,IC-761,IC-756ProII,IC-756Pro,IC-756,IC-751A,IC-706MKIIG,Ten Tec Pegasus, Omni 6 OPt 3, and many many more! I have 1ea cable between my Flex 5000A and the computer! Thats not allot, most modern Hams have a good computer in there shack for other things so most would not have to run out and buy a new one! And as far as not having knobs to turn, if the main thing we want is an excellent receiver to pull out weak signals, would you really care if the radio has a blue display,crome knobs,back-lite buttons or NO KNOBS at all! If that is the case , don't read the specs, just look at the pictures and buy the prettiest radio you see! I like it when there is a 20 over station next to me on the band and I still can copy the week ones and the QRM does not bother me! Remember when some folks bought the Mustange LX with the same engine and suspention as the GT so they could get the performance but not have to pay the High Insurance cost for the "GT" model. Did not look as kool but would do the jo