Do You Have a Little More Power?
David L. Rust (W0DLR)
on
August 12, 2008
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I have been active and in and out of radio, probably like we all have, for 45 years now. Only once in my life have I owned an amplifier, an FL2100B.
I probably used it six months and sent it on down the road. It didn't seem like an amplifier on the low bands was necessary to carry on a QSO.
After once again getting interested in HF of an evening, it seems like about the second thing I hear is "If you have some more power turn it on" "We can hardly hear you".
Now I know the bands have been bad, and noisy, but I don't see the need for everyone to run 700 or 800 watts plus. Have we gotten ourselves into a rut that we all need an amplifier? I have listened to many QSOs that almost the entire conversation was devoted to what kind of amplifier I have,and what kind of amplifier you have.
No doubt the cost of amps being more affordable, and hams seem to have more money must be contributing to this amplifier syndrome.
I keep reminding myself there is something in part 97 that says you only need to run the amount of power necessary. If I cana't talk to Johnny lower power tonight, maybe I can talk to him tomorrow night.
73, I guess I got it off my chest. Do you really need an amplifier?
W0DLR
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AC5UP on August 12, 2008
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A few years back I was tuning around the upper end of 75 meters. Paused to listen in on one of the groups that camps out on the same freq every night chewing the same rag when a new call comes up.
Regular in the group, hasn't been on for a week or two. What's the deal? Amp was in the shop. How's the signal?
30 over.
Let me turn the amp off for a minute.
How's the signal now?
20 over.
Looks like it's working.
Yup.
Yup.
Yup.
OM turns the amp back on.
And leaves it on.
Which begs the question... If you're 20 over without an amplifier, what's the point of running it?
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W8ZNX on August 12, 2008
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not agn
just because one night on 75
everybody heard each other 30 over
does not mean
they should give up their amps
i run qrp
i run qro
an amp is neither bad or good
its simply a tool
to be used or not used
depending on time and place
summer nights
75 fone
an amp is a very usefull tool
mac
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W9PMZ on August 12, 2008
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"73, I guess I got it off my chest. Do you really need an amplifier?"
Yes and you probably will need an amp (or a bigger font) to work me because I can't pull your signal (or your article) out of the noise....
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N5JFJ on August 12, 2008
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;-)
Oh No Dave! - "RUN"
I hear them coming -They are just over the hill -Growls - Moans - Snarling - Slobbering!
It's the Langalears (you know, Stephen King) and they are coming, for YOU!
I am poking pure Fun Dave, but your article should draw some interesting comments. I can agree with you that there are always times that one does not need much power, or an amplifier to operate.
But...Then there are those - Armpit Biting - Snarling -Growling - Spitting - Nasty - Rude - INCREDIBLY FUN - DX Pile Ups - in which a fellow would not want to be bringing a pocket knife - TO A GUN FIGHT!
Much like trying to pull your huge fishing boat up a slippery, very steep Boat launch with a small 2 wheel drive pickup and REALIZING!
WOW - I could have had a "V-8"
Too much coffee this morning!!!!! 8-)
God Bless you - Jerry
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KB9CRY on August 12, 2008
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It didn't seem like an amplifier on the low bands was necessary to carry on a QSO.
Obviously not DXing.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K9IUQ on August 12, 2008
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Why is that the Hams that dont own an amp always insist one doesnt *need* an amp.
Try getting in a DX pileup with 30 stations and see if your 100 watts gets heard over the legal limit rock crushers........
Oh I have no doubt you might work the DX in that pileup. You will just have to w a i t until the big signals go away....
Stan K9IUQ
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N3QE on August 12, 2008
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Summer noise on 80M can be atrocious at times, and 40M is sometimes not much better.
But other times in the summer, on a good morning with no storms anywhere in the Eastern US, I can reliably work Australia and New Zealand on 40M with 5W. Of course it's winter there so of course they can hear me! This actually works quite reliably.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W4LGH on August 12, 2008
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Well, I guess the author doesn't like amps, and that's ok. However an amp is just another facet of Ham Radio, and is "Pride" of many shacks. A couple of operators sitting around talking about their amps isn't any different than talking about the weather, they type of radio they are using, or their antenna system.
While I can certainly agree, an amp is not necessary all the time, they can be very useful other times. However I can't agree that amps have become more reasonable in price, with the cost of tubes and copper, where it is today, the cost of a amp is thru the roof and I find it amazing what some hams will pay for these amps, especially some of the older ALPHA models. But I guess its a matter of how bad someone wants it.
The days of a NEW SB-220 are long gone, although they can stall be found used, with plenty of parts, both new and used available to keep them going for years to come. Its not a pretty amp, no bells or whistles, but it is no doubt the most bang for the buck, and will get the job done.
I have 2 amps in my shack. Neither of which are considered "fire breathing dragons", but they will get the job done when necessary. Both are Drakes, to complete my Drake collections, the L4B and the L7.
73 de W4LGH - Alan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KY6R on August 12, 2008
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I worked 291 entities with 200 watts or less before buying an amp.
I try to follow the "use only the power you need". Only occasionally do I need an amp. 90+ % of the time 200 watts is plenty enough.
Sometimes 5 watts is enough, sometimes 1.5 KW is needed.
Putting up the best antenna system you can should be done long before you consider an amp.
To each his or her own.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W2SFD on August 12, 2008
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Again? Man, leave each to his own. I have an amp, and run it often. I sure can talk to a lot more people with it on than with it off.
I have to laugh, maybe if they had an amp they would be talking with someone instead of being here...lol
W2SFD
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KF4HR on August 12, 2008
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Perhaps this same question can be applied to many areas of amateur equipment radio equipment. Do HF transceivers need to have an output of 100, 200, or 400 watts? Why not just make them all 30 watts? Do we need 50 watt VHF radios? Why not just limit them to 15 or 25 watts (like yesteryear)? Do we need yagi or other types of gain antennas? Why don't we all just limit ourselves to dipoles or vertical antennas?
The reason of course is some hams enjoy having the flexibility to improve the performance of their stations, to try and maintain arm-chair copy during a contact.
HF high power amplifiers mean different things to different people. No doubt there's some hams that get a nice ego boost from flipping the "big switch" and watching their watt meters dance around. For others it might just be a way to extend a qso during worsening band conditions. For others owning a HF Amp is a way to compete in pile ups and contests with others using similar power levels. Others may use their HF amp at only partially driven levels to make better use of their exciters duty-cycle, especially for modes such as RTTY, SSTV, etc. Others may view their HF Amp as just a tool to be rarely used. And impatience may be a factor as well. Some may want to jump in, snag that rare one, and jump back out, and not try competing with kilowatt+ stations with their barefoot transceivers. Hams buy HF amps for all these reasons and more.
Anyone that has been around this hobby for awhile knows a HF amplifier only marginally improves signal strength at the other end; less than one S-unit to maybe two. Then again, the next time you're in a HF qso trying lowering your power level from 100 watts to 10 watts. Sometimes 10 watts will work fine, others times with QSB, QRM, QRN, it won't. Same with moving from 100 to 1,000 watts. On occasion higher power is necessary to maintain a qso, other times it's not. Can we just wait for another day with hopefully better band conditions? Compete in contests with a lower power level? Or hope that DX station comes back on the air some other day? Sure! But I think it's safe to say, not everyone may wish to.
I own a HF amp. I equate it to a specialized tool which I use occasionally. If I were to consider its usage-to-cost ratio (compared to my other gear), I'd have to say it is the least used, most expensive box in my shack. Then again, like any other specialized tool, when it's needed, it's sure nice to have.
KF4HR
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AF3Y on August 12, 2008
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W0DLR sez: "I have listened to many QSOs that almost the entire conversation was devoted to what kind of amplifier I have,and what kind of amplifier you have."
Amps are certainly a big help trying to work DX these days. AND - the amp conversation noted above is certainly no worse than a couple of "wannbe commercial radio announcer types"/ragchewers (audiophiles??) raving on for hours about their settings and tweaks for their super duper equalizers, boom box bass boosters, velvet throat sounding thingys, etc. etc.
My amp is here, for when I need it. Which is often these days! 73, Gene
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N9FE on August 12, 2008
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Well the lightning crashes are 20 to 30 over s9 right now. I'm turning on my amplifier and getting on the air so i can get out of my rut..
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N3OX on August 12, 2008
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I think the problem is that there's this binary response to amplifiers.
Some people think "of *course* you need them to work DX or talk on 75m"
Others claim that "it's only a couple of S-units and who really *needs* that?!"
The fact of the matter is that you gain a 12dB increase in your transmitted signal when you fire up your 1.5kW amp instead of running 100W. That's how I will make my decision... on the basis of whether or not I need up to an extra 12dB of transmitted signal strength.
Up until recently, the answer, for me, was almost always just "no." I didn't wait so long in the pileups on the higher bands... I certainly didn't just wait for all the strong signals to go away. It doesn't work that way, actually, because you can *actually hear* a guy calling in 12dB down from a few other simultaneous callers, especially on CW where there's a solid frequency separation even a few dozen Hz apart. On SSB, you have to have better timing, but not necessarily an amplifier.
But, even in my earlier DXing days, I very occasionally ran into a problem. I would come across some DX, almost always over the pole... some HL or HS station calling CQ, and I'd come back to them... and they'd CQ in my face. That'd happened a couple dozen times over the course of thousands and thousands of DX contacts for me.
That is, until I started working 160m DX.
Guys on 160m CQ in my face quite a bit more than they ever did on 15m CW when the band was open and I had a tribander ;-) My antenna could be practically improved just a couple of dB. In the best case, if I had enough land for a full size quarter wave and/or a huge, dense radial field, I could probably pick up something like 6dB. If I just go buy a kilowatt amp, I can hook it up and gain 10dB.
I've got 94 countries worked on 160m with 100W. I'd kind of like to get those last 6 with 100W as well, but make no mistake, if you work 160m DX, it's a lot cheaper to buy an amp than to move to 500 acres of land where you can build a half-million dollar antenna installation to pick up that extra 12dB ;-)
An amp is a tool to make your station a useful amount louder. But a lot of people seem to have either inflated or deflated expectations of what it can do... you squeak that last 200W out and run 1500W instead of 1300W on 75m phone? That's sort of missing the point. So is saying that you have to wait in line for all the kilowatts in a DX pileup if you aren't one yourself... totally ignoring the fact that propagation variations, antenna conditions, timing, and the linearity of SSB and CW mean you don't really *ever* have to be the loudest guy in the pileup to be the first through.
Make your amp decisions wisely, I say, on the basis of whether or not some contacts are failing in a way that some extra transmitted signal strength would cure, and not on the basis of someone else's experience.
73,
Dan
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K5LXP on August 12, 2008
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I think today you need an amp more than ever. With most new hams running all-band wonder wires up 20ft you need all the desktop gain you can get just to overcome the mismatch and ground losses. Conversely, anyone wanting to talk to them needs an amp to make up for the crappy pattern and efficiency of the all-band wonder wire on receive.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KB2DHG on August 12, 2008
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For years I debated the use of AMPS...
I used to live in a house which was up on top a mountan with a 360 degree horizional view. My tower and 3 element beam worked the world no problem with 100 watts... Now I live in an apartment with limited space and only a G5RV dipole. 100 watts can't radiate as well from this location...
Out of desperation I hooked up my Yaesu 600 watt amp and it did indeed make a difference! NOT gang busters but that extra bump had yealded me a few more notches on the meter... BUT I still wonder if it is more band conditions than power?
Either way it is all a matter of what you want to do... Quite honestly making a contact using lower power is more thrilling than a high power QSO...
I rather keep it 100 watts or lower... But that is my personal opinion...
So to answer the question Amp or no amp there are many varyables that must be takin in account... Just a matter of taste and opinion...
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N4LI on August 12, 2008
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OK,
I'm a QRP guy. I have worked the world with 5 Watts -- and often, much less.
That being said, there are times only an amp will do. I work a lot of VHF; on VHF, life is too short for QRP.
Middle of the country, Trans-Atlantic on 6m? Gosh, but the amp helps; those signals are often just above the noise. The 10 dB one gets from going to a kW often makes all the difference.
2m weak signal? Again, you're working just above the noise. 'No such thing as too much power. I'm using 300W, and am looking for more.
HF? I hardly EVER turn the amp on.
Peter, N4LI
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W1XZ on August 12, 2008
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In all my years I found that if I didn't turn my amp on no one could hear my Stratocaster above the room noise.
Why is this an article?
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K3AN on August 12, 2008
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Before spending $$ for an amp, spend $$ to put up the "best" antennas your budget and property can handle. Last weekend I dabbled in the MD/DC QSO Party. All the stations I worked were essentially the same distance and same direction from my QTH here, yet the 40 Meter signal levels of those stations ranged from a strong S7 down to some that were barely readable at the S0 noise level. It wasn't just an amp that made some stations so very much stronger. Oh, and none of the stations I worked were the usual MDC contesting big boys.
But the best reason for investing in antennas first is that if you can't hear them you can't work them.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by WW5AA on August 12, 2008
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I would grant that the first priority is a real antenna system. Second is a great radio, however, as far as i'm concerned "Life is too short for QRP". The guys that I hear complaining about amps and how they would not have an amp in the shack are the one's that smoked several early on. I have also worked QRP, but do not like operating a mode that depends on the other guys receive ability. It makes common sense to operate at reduced power, but it's nice to have the amp when needed.
73 de Lindy
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K5END on August 12, 2008
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With receivers getting better all the time it may help. Or the receiver of the future may just tie for second place.
I think we all agree the antenna and feedline are more critical than the amp.
A linear amp company rep told me that getting your first linear amp is a lot like the point in your life when you got your drivers license, and turned in your bicycle for a car.
My promise to myself is to pass 30 wpm Morse code before I get a linear. Only seems appropriate.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by WA1RNE on August 12, 2008
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by W1XZ on August 12, 2008
Why is this an article?
>>> It's not an article; it's actually a displaced Speak Out piece. But it's in good company.....
...WA1RNE
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It ain't what you have. It's what you do with it!
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by AI2IA on August 12, 2008
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A linear amplifier is a useful instrument.
A good transceiver is a useful instrument.
Well constructed and well placed antennas are useful instruments.
A radio operator who knows when and where and how to thoroughly and patiently use these things is an operator of great achievement and worthy of emulation.
It is all too easy to use a linear amplifier as a means of convenience. Don't like the conditions? Just turn up the power.
It is all too easy to use the big knob on your transceiver. Why bother tweaking in a weak station even though your receiver was built with all sorts of bells and whistles to bring it in? Just turn the big knob or otherwise ignore the weak station.
It is all too easy to blame the type of antenna you are using. Why bother raising it, or changing the location or direction, or reading up on it and improving the matching conditions?
Use all your skills and all your gear to the fullest and you will find these little quibbles like QRO vs. QRP, amps vs. no amps, wires vs. yagis, etc. to be shallow debates among the lazy and the ignorant.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W9OY on August 12, 2008
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W1ZX
I switched to a Parker Fly and when I put it on acoustic mode I don't need the amp
73 W9OY
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W9OY on August 12, 2008
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Here is the real issue in this article
"After once again getting interested in HF of an evening, it seems like about the second thing I hear is "If you have some more power turn it on" "We can hardly hear you"."
Guess what you were a dog gnat 45 years ago and you're a dog gnat today. If they can hardly hear you it is because YOU ARE WEAK, not because ham radio is all goofed up. If you think its a joy to work some joker with a puny weak signal, think again. It's a big PITA.
73 W9OY
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RE: It ain't what you have. It's what you do with
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by W5HTW on August 12, 2008
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I would say yes. Or no. Or maybe. Or once ina while.
I guess, if the main goal is working DX, and for some (many) it is, then yep, an amplifier is very useful. If the main goal is just making contacts, it's probably a waste of money and energy.
I don't begrudge folks their amps. I have had several, most of them homebrew, but a couple of commercially made ones as well, over the years. In my own personal experience I found that when I did not have one, I wanted one. When I had one, I almost never used it. The last one I had I had to remind myself to turn it on once a month or so to keep it in operating condition.
I don't know why that is. Probably because I don't chase DX, and never really did. Maybe because I'm not competitive enough to care how many certificates I hang on my wall. But I don't mind those who think of ham radio in those terms. It's a hobby - enjoy it your way, within the rules.
I neither think amps are good nor bad. Simply a tool, as others have noted. The question is, do we all need - or want - the same tools? Some do, some don't.
My real ham radio fun has been with moderate power. That means 100 watts or less, often 20 watts. Your fun may be with 1500 watts. That's OK with me. I just like to play it my way, and that is with under 100 watts. So I finally got rid of the last amplifier about two years ago, and have had lots of fun. And for the first time, the "when I don't have it I want it" attitude has gone away! I haven't missed it at all. I didn't need it as a phallic symbol, or to boost my ego, and when I realized that, and realized all it really did was sit there and look impressive, I sold it.
Hopefully the guy who bought it will enjoy it more than I did.
Ed
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by WB2WIK on August 12, 2008
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I use amplifiers quite often and find them very useful:
Not as replacement for good antennas, but in addition to them.
Receivers really haven't gotten much better over 3-4-5 decades; dynamics have improved slightly and DSP features make them less fussy to use, but there certainly haven't been any gains in sensitivity -- we couldn't use more sensitive receivers on HF, anyway.
One thing that has happened is this new cycle (#24) is slow to start and the upper HF bands have been in the doldrums a lot. Good antenna + good operator + amplifier = contacts, when often if just one of these elements is missing, the sum is "no contacts."
I use amps a lot on SSB. Not so much on CW, where the mode already provides a nice S/N advantage.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K5END on August 12, 2008
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Steve, you don't think the noise floor and the RX filtering options have improved in the last 3-4-5 decades?
My Yaesu FT-450AT and My FT-100D seem to be a lot easier on the ear than my 2 boat anchors (Yaseu FT-101 and National.)
On the other hand, the QRM seems worse, and my hearing isn't getting any better with age either.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K5UJ on August 12, 2008
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Calling all amp haters* an anti-amp troll piece is up on eHam!
Funny, I have operated HF exclusively since 1972 but I can't recall ever hearing a qso devoted entirely to amps. However, were one to take place it would be perfectly okay, since there's a lot about them worth discussing, as anyone who spends some time studying them will attest.
Oh, I'll save everyone some time by regurgitating the same old stuff:
Don't spend money on power -- instead devote your life to antenna development -- you should not be allowed to own an amp until you have spent $300,000 on a 60 dipole curtain antenna and two phased Franklins for 160 m.
You should only transmit with just enough power to make contact. This means you must spend the first 30 minutes of a qso figuring out how much power to use so that the guy on the other end can barely hear you.
Let's all petition the FCC to make any power over 100 watts illegal (since that's all I can have myself).
Okay. Next article please.
*Anyone who would love to have an amp but will never admit to that because they are A. too cheap to buy one, B. spouse won't let them have one, C. are afraid of angering neighbors, but if I were to show them a shiny new Command HF-2500 and tell them it's theirs free if they want it, would take it in a heart beat.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KE4MOB on August 12, 2008
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"Do you really need an amplifier?"
Well...no. But by the same token I don't really "need" to have air conditioning, either.
But I like to have it, and use it whenever it's appropriate.
The key word being appropriate.
Just like I don't use my A/C when it's 30 outside, I don't use my amp when the band noise is S3 and signals are S9.
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hello AI2IA, Raymond
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by N8NSN on August 12, 2008
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Hi Raymond (AI2IA)
...once again hits the nail on the head with the intelligent reply I have come to expect from my friend Raymond.
Could not have said it any better.
Each piece of a station should be made to perform optimally ...Antenna system, Transmitter/Receiver (Transceiver), Amplifier (if used), Audio equipment...All of "it". Yes, the person running the station should "perform optimally" as well.
Only 13 years of Licensed Amateur work here.
Learned a great deal about antennas (receiving antennas) during SWL years previous to active ARS years.
Never owned an amp (YET).
Some day I will likely have an amp in the set up.
None the less, having a TON of fun with the hobby.
I really enjoy rag chewing with the folks I have met, on 40 and 75 meters, with the "big signals". In the times that conditions could not get my signal comfortable for them to hear... I just wait for another time and sit back and LISTEN. You know the "tricks"... Roll the RF Gain back to just above the static crash level...Roll in the notch and slope to get rid of the other noises... Yep, then the Big Sigs sound as if they are jumping right out of the speaker. I have learned a lot that way. Some of those "BIG SIGNAL" OPs have taught me a great deal about antennas, as well as, where to find reliable information on antennas. I have learned a great deal by listening, period. Usually my small 100 watts or so and the doublet antenna that I have been making some improvements on, for the lower HF bands, are plenty enough to be heard. Some have said that a good "efficient" antenna is the most important piece of a station... I agree 100% on that.
Optimal performance can only be achieved if the operator of the station knows how to use what is at their disposal. Many times a signal "in the mud" can be pulled out if you know what features your receiver has and how to use those features. But ! Sometimes conditions are just too bad. Simple as that.
Very grateful to be part of the hobby,
A small fish in a BIG pond,
jimmie (KC8BYF)
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KB9RQZ on August 12, 2008
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I realy like what n3ox said make your amp decisions carefully
I got one when a number of station I could could not quite seem to hear wll enough to QSO with
no I did not go and buy akilowatts (id be afraid of wrecking the tubes of those things having never dealts with tubes) I aquired ameritron 811 (the final decision beween that and the 811h was which was in stock) picjed it up at peoria hamfest and now the signals I can with my current and evoling anttena system can general hear me if I can hear them and since both are required to make contacts.... and certainly I don't think I was going to the same level of change with that same 600 spent trying to aquire a tower and anntena, likely resulting in my hearing yet more stations that I can hear that can't quite make me out (allthough covering the pople I was having that problem with before)
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AB7E on August 12, 2008
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Why isn't an opinion piece like this posted to the "Speakout" section? It doesn't even remotely qualify as an article, even by eHam's ridiculously low standards.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by M0JHA on August 12, 2008
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Wheres the fun in throwing 1k watts up an antenna? Yes id take your free amp but that would only be to sell it on to the next power hungry amateur.
As stated if one night you cant rag chew with big bob in the next state try another night or do something weird like try and contact another ham you dont know and that can hear you.
i would get no satisfaction of making contact with anyone anywhere in the world with 1000 watts.
billy uk
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K8JHR on August 12, 2008
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A couple of thoughts re: amps:
1) Most operators use amplifies properly and with good effect, namely to get a good signal out. I have no objection to this.
2) Some operators use amplifiers to compete with weaker signals seeking DX contacts in a pileup. I guess that is just a part of the game. But if we all used lower power, then it would be up to our antennas and our skill to make the difference. (Of course, one could argue against using bigger antennas to even the playing field, and I am not suggesting that... a certain amount of inequality is a part of life.)
3) But, for some guys, it is becomes a macho kind of thing, like flexing one's muscles and showing off. I object to this use of amplifiers as it violates the FCC regulation to use only that much power as necessary to make the contact, and a few of these operators use the amplifier to bully weaker signals off the air. So, if you do not have a huge booming signal, and use 3800 Hz band width, then you must be a weenie and don't belong on the air. I feel this use of amplifiers is inappropriate as they are not used as a tool for making contact, but for secondary purposes somewhat unrelated to ham radio.
4) With smaller antennas, and only 100 watts, I was repeatedly hearing, "You are way down in the noise...sorry, call back when band conditions are better..." So, the amp gives me just a bit better signal. (I have never used my TenTec Centurion over 500 watts.) Now I get better signal reports and I do not think I am using too much power.
5) As for the guys playing the Strat and Parker Fly ... I agree, but you MUST USE TUBE Amps for best sound.
Thanks for considering my view. /// James - K8JHR ///
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KU2US on August 12, 2008
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Maybe this has been mentioned before? I agree that the antenna is the most important vehicle for a good signal. It is common knowledge that a directional beam is probably the best antenna on most bands, BUT, what if a station is antenna defficient? Due to certain circumstances (restrictions, budget, space, et.et)? One must conpensate-how? with POWER..I can run rings around a station with 500 watts and a dipole, with my 100 watts and a 3 element beam! But to compete, the dipole needs more power due to the performance of the dipole vs. a beam, lets say in a pile-up. I agree (an amp) if you dont need it-dont use it. The ideal situation, of course is an amp and a efficient directional antenna, but to some of us, this is just a dream. So, an amp has its place as does QRO & QRP. The right sensible combination will get you QSO's and DX.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N5YPJ on August 12, 2008
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There are lots of times I would like to have an amplifier, at least on the low bands. Too many years of running similar antenna set ups to the guys with S-9+20 signals and having to really fight to be heard against the static can only mean you need to go QRO. I really feel it is a necessity at times.
17 mtrs and above, I think that propagation is a great leveler of things and unless condx are really bad or you just have to be the first one to break the pile up then it's not quiet as necessary.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N3QVB on August 12, 2008
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I guess it all comes down to what you want to get out of the hobby. I don't own an amp but have been thinking about getting one. I've decided I'd never need to put out more than 600 watts so that will guide me to the right one (I know, never say never).
It's like owning a boat and getting "3 foot-itis". When you buy that 25 footer thinking it will be the last boat you'll ever need, you start looking at the 28's a few years down the road.
My main interest is chasing DX and have been fortunate with my 100 watts. I upgraded my antenna to the best beam I could afford. I didn't even want to consider an amp until I did this. A few months ago I impulsively bought some audio processing equipment; an 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus by W2IHY. I was hesitant because I didn't want to over-drive my audio and I wanted to sound natural (I really dislike these echo boxes some people put on the air). Once I was assured I could avoid that I went on the air and this has been the BEST upgrade I've ever made. My pileup break-rate is much higher than before and it's with the same 100 watts. I sound louder according to the unsolicited reports.
So, this has satisfied my appetite so far but I know I'll get that "3 foor-itis" again soon, and start re-visiting the amp decision. I just wanted to share my personal experience with something that was only about $ 600.00 and competes very well with amps.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC2RGW on August 12, 2008
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To the O.P.
Try spending five hours rag chewing with a minimum noise floor of S9 and crashes that can peak at 30 over S9 and a group of people with 100W into a 15' high dipole. If you find that pleasant, more power to you. You will lose about every third word from most of those stations.
Add about 500W to that station, now you have a usefully quiet signal to listen to and can enjoy the evening again.
If all you want is "5 9 good luck" you can work with 20W. If you stick around and want to engage in full conversations, you will greatly appreciate anyone running an amp.
I don't often run my amp above 40m, it's mostly for 75m and 160m to deal with the level of QRN and for the simple fact that I don't have the acreage to have a multi-wavelength loop at proper height on those bands. It's a very useful tool.
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Nothing wrong with amps, but many don't need one!
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by W8KQE on August 12, 2008
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Of course an amp has advantages (DUH!), but I am proof that you don't need one, *IF* you have patience, operating skill, and like the extra challenge of TXing with lower power (barefoot to QRP or QRPp). It also generally helps to have good antennas and shorter feed lines/coax runs.
Personally, i've never owned an amp (since licensed in 1977), but recognize their value for many. In my case, as a General Class op all of my 'Ham life' so far (no access to Advanced or Extra band slivers), i've worked 288 countries (281 confirmed) from Ohio (been at this location/state since 1995). I also have over 320 6 meter grids confirmed, as well as all 48 contiguous states confirmed on 6, using only 100w max and a loop antenna. On HF, I only use simple wires, verticals, and a TA-32 Junior (2 element smaller footprint beam) mounted on a chimney at only 27 feet or so. Of course, most of my HF DX was worked during the better years of Cycle 23... much of it on CW. I don't say all this to brag, but to affirm for those new operators that you can do just fine without a kilowatt.
Each to his/her own. That's what makes this hobby/service great!
73 to all,
George W8KQE
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KE4ZHN on August 12, 2008
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Here we go, another anti amplifier whine. I use my amp often because I work 75 phone in the SE US. Try making contacts with 30 over S 9 crash in the summer with your 100 watts. Good luck. All you'll hear is sorry ole man your buried in the crash...cya later. In the winter I often run without my amp or low power but about 8 months out of the year the crash is very heavy here so if you dont own and amp or use one on 75 phone your an SWL.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N6AJR on August 12, 2008
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Well, yes, you do need an Amp.
First spend all you can on building or buying a decent antenna setup, do the best you can on your lot, with your restrictions et al, do the best antenna you can first. Even to the point of putting in a listening only antenna like a k9ay or such.
Next get the very best radio you can buy or build. have one with a second reciever, good filters etc.
A good radio and a good radio are the 2 most important parts of yopur shack.
Next as a final cherry on the top of the Sunday, get the very best amp you can buy or build. A small amp is helpfull ( ie als 600, al 811, 811H etc.)but its better to just to get a legal limit amp and run it at half power as opposed to running a smaller amp at max power all the time. the big amp will be much more linear and also last a lot longer because you are not pushing it to max all day every day.
So do you "need" an amp. probably not, but do they come in handy, yes, there is qrp and there is barefoot, but sometimes its nice to flip on the switch and make it easier for them to hear you.
A qrp station is more effective ino a station with good antennas and a great reciever, but they can work you at less than 5 watts , but a lot of that is your antennas also.
For dx and contesting I liketo have it on stand by for those tough piles I "have" to get in.
So do you "need an amp", probably no, but do you want a Henry 4k or an alpha 87A in the shack , you bet cha.!!!!!!
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N6AJR on August 12, 2008
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Well, yes, you do need an Amp.
First spend all you can on building or buying a decent antenna setup, do the best you can on your lot, with your restrictions et al, do the best antenna you can first. Even to the point of putting in a listening only antenna like a k9ay or such.
Next get the very best radio you can buy or build. have one with a second reciever, good filters etc.
A good radio and a good radio are the 2 most important parts of yopur shack.
Next as a final cherry on the top of the Sunday, get the very best amp you can buy or build. A small amp is helpfull ( ie als 600, al 811, 811H etc.)but its better to just to get a legal limit amp and run it at half power as opposed to running a smaller amp at max power all the time. the big amp will be much more linear and also last a lot longer because you are not pushing it to max all day every day.
So do you "need" an amp. probably not, but do they come in handy, yes, there is qrp and there is barefoot, but sometimes its nice to flip on the switch and make it easier for them to hear you.
A qrp station is more effective ino a station with good antennas and a great reciever, but they can work you at less than 5 watts , but a lot of that is your antennas also.
For dx and contesting I liketo have it on stand by for those tough piles I "have" to get in.
So do you "need an amp", probably no, but do you want a Henry 4k or an alpha 87A in the shack , you bet cha.!!!!!!
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KI4WAF on August 12, 2008
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Dave,
You talked to me last summer and neither of us were using an amplifier. I heard you just fine. Who else do you need to talk to? (hi hi hi)
Hope things are going well for you. Take care!
73,
-JP
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by VE2DC on August 12, 2008
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Sometimes. Especially when you are competing with Mother Nature on a noisy Summer night on 160 or 75. The amp doesn't do a thing for me... but it can make things a lot more comfortable for the person I'm talking to.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N4VNZ on August 12, 2008
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I run my Stratocaster through a Mesa Boogie DC-5 with the EV Black Shadow antenna in it....I have no trouble being heard. I have an extension cab with another antenna like that in it, also, if QRM is a problem. For really nasty QRM, I have a Peavy 4X12 antenna I can throw into the fray along with the above mentioned antenna farm...
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W7ETA on August 12, 2008
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"73, I guess I got it off my chest. Do you really need an amplifier?"
Yes I do.
I also use my compressor.
But, that was part of the FUN of wattage restricted having Novice bands.
I only use the compressor for DX pile-ups. I don't need it for North America.
With the exception of a "new to me" country, I rarely use the 8877 amp. For DX West of me, I don't turn an amp on. For DX East of me I use an instant-ON pair of 3-500Zs when I think I need it. For a new-to-me country, I wind up competing with ops running mono band yagis on 20 and 15 meter, running 8-10K input amps, with taller towers--they usually beat my tribander at 70 feet and 1KW out on CW.
I've found that the 8877 is pretty good for long path-grey line on 75; same for 75 sigs into 4X area of the world. It seems to help long path over VK into the East Coast of Africa and EU and into the UK, especially on 10 meters. If I have to compete to chat with an op near my antipode I use it.
For me, if I hear an op on SSB, I listen to how he sounds and how he conducts himself. Based upon that, I decide if I want to chat with him. I figure, the minimum an op can do is to have good clean audio. IF they don't have clean audio, unless there is a problem in the audio, I just keep turning the VFO or make it a short Q.
On CW, if the other op is sending a canned QSO (from a computer), I usually pass by. I've noticed they don't seem to chat much after the computer is done sending.
One change I have made is that if I hear a chirpy signal, it now seems to indicate that I'll probably have FUN finding out about what is making a chirpy tone?
I never worry if the other op is running an amp, if they took a CW test, or if they took their tests at an FCC field office. I never wonder if they use crimp on connectors, if they have excess cable running to their gear, if they use RG8 jumper cables, if their car is dirty,.....
But there is hope if one cannot get out of worrying if another op is using more than 100 watts or so--30 meters, and the new novice-tech portion of 10 meter phone. Ooops. I keep forgetting about our crystal controlled band.
73
Bob
PS: thanks for the entertaining complaint
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by WZ1P on August 12, 2008
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I operate almost entirely portable from the field at 100W or less. I must admit that I'd love to have a nice little 250W amp available for operating from home using my portable equipment. Just because.
Danny
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by WB2WIK on August 12, 2008
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>RE: Do You Have a Little More Power? Reply
by K5END on August 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Steve, you don't think the noise floor and the RX filtering options have improved in the last 3-4-5 decades?<
::No.
>My Yaesu FT-450AT and My FT-100D seem to be a lot easier on the ear than my 2 boat anchors (Yaseu FT-101 and National.)<
::A bit apples & oranges, but understandable. The "National" could be anything, they made some good stuff and some awful stuff. The FT-101 was available in many varieties and versions but all had a decent SSB crystal filter and they were all analog and actually very sensitive and as selective as the filter would allow. Not bad. But my comparison is more like: New Flex SDR5000 or Elecraft K3, or Ten Tec Orion-II compared with either my 30 year-old Drake TR-7 or my 52 year-old Collins 75A4(A). I've never once been able to pick out a signal with one of those modern miracles that the TR-7 and 75A4(A) could not also pick out just fine, and usually just as well. The TR-7 BTW has no RF preamplifier stage, at all -- the "front end" is a preselector-tuned mixer.
The Sherwood Engineering Inc. laboratory tests on receivers indicates that "to this day" (including the most modern gear), the 30 year-old TR-7 has a noise floor of -134 dBm, which is as good as about anything made since and isn't a very important figure anyway since as soon as I plug in "real" antenna, I'm band noise limited immediately with any kind of reasonably sensitive receiver.
Sherwood also lists the 30-y.o. TR-7 as having a wide spaced dynamic range of 99 dB, which is the highest number recorded for just about anything ever made before or since, except the IC-7800 which measured 102 dB (for a $10,500 2000+ vintage rig); and the TR-7 has a 100kHz blocking figure of 146 dB, which is the highest figure recorded for any piece of amateur equipment made by anyone, of any vintage.
So, I am comparing a 3 decade-old rig to modern stuff.
Now, the modern stuff, especially rigs having selectable narrow roofing filters, can and will do better on narrow spaced (2 kHz) dynamic range, and possibly some other dynamics that may be helpful to some operators under some conditions.
So, technology didn't advance without notice!
I love DSP-generated and demodulated signals in that we can now adjust transmitter and receiver bandwidth and other stuff in two seconds without having to change costly filters or re-optimize circuits. My modern rigs like the Ten Tec have DSP generated AM that is full double sideband, well modulated and low distortion that older "SSB" rigs just could not produce. I like the new features.
But being able to hear a weak signal amongst a band full of strong ones, including powerful BC interference and such, has not really improved -- at least, not for me. Depends on the hardware you're comparing.
73
Steve WB2WIK/6
On the other hand, the QRM seems worse, and my hearing isn't getting any better with age either.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K0RGR on August 12, 2008
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I find that DSP noise reduction helps a lot for me, but I also believe that the general level of background noise has increased drastically. The proliferation of lots of electrical/electronic junk that just spews random RF pollution has taken a real toll.
This increase in noise levels is complicated by the fact that so many people now run less than 100 watts and QRP. You hear less on the bands, because you can't hear what's there. This leads to less people being on the air.
So, for those who can run high power, we salute you. You provide us with signals we can hear on our crummy compromised antennas in noisy neighborhoods.
I used a kilowatt at Field Day for the first time in many years. I'd forgotten how effortless HF contacts can be.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K8JHR on August 12, 2008
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Fine business, friend.
I run a Fender Super Reverb reissue amp 4x10 antenna array, or if QRM is problematic, I use a Peavey Special 130 solid state amp, with Scorpion antenna. Use both with a Guild X-170 Manhattan as the exciter.
== K8JHR ==
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by WI7B on August 12, 2008
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"Do you really need an amplifier?"
Yep, I do for DX.
Nope, I don't for regional rag-chew.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W4KVW on August 12, 2008
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NEED an amp?Maybe not but when my RIG is ON my AMP is in OPERATE mode!LIFE IS TOO SHORT FOR "QRP"!This way if I'm NOT making the trip then it's time to do something else & that's "NOT" happening with the amp in "OPERATE" mode.Standby is just for warm up period with the inrush protection.Do the best you can if you don't have an amp but it's MUCH easier with one & I HATE repeating myself & I PREFER getting an answer on the FIRST call & being HEARD on EVERY returning response the FIRST time. Some folks HATE amps because they can NOT afford one OR they can NOT afford the ELECTRIC BILL from running one either so I hate it for them!If I had a LEGAL LIMIT amp I'd run LEGAL LIMIT but 800 watts has NOT let me down SO FAR!If you like QRP then SCREAM your lungs out & CALL & CALL & CALL & CALL & CALL......& CALL some more but I'm saving my time & energy with a quick connection with the amp in the "OPERATE" position! }:>)
Clayton
W4KVW
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by WA8MEA on August 12, 2008
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I would enjoy an article on what I call: "Pipeline Propagation."
There are instances where it does not matter if you're running 2 watts or 2 kilowatts. It's a pipeline.
Pipeline Prop can be as quick as a Sporadic E opening to a certain corner of a state....a thousand miles away. Or....a regular every day-in/day-out pipeline prop to certain station(s).
On 20 meters, I have a pipeline to a fella in Moose Island, ME. I also hear other 20 meter pipeline stations.
Around sunset, 40 meters brings in several pipeliners where I am received equally as well every night, winter spring, summer or fall...all they have to do is call....
I guess the best advice I ever received was:
"If you want to simply roll the dice and rely on propagation....100 watts is fine.
HOWEVER, if you want to MAKE YOUR OWN propagation, buy an amp!"
I am in the former category. I, like the author, had an amp once and saw very little difference. So I sold it. I now run 100 watts and just roll with the propagation gods....
73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NI0C on August 12, 2008
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In spite of the fact that the original posting does not constitute an "article," the author's question has generated a lot of good discussion.
It ought to be obvious to everyone that amplifiers enable QSO's under conditions where they might not take place at all. I could cite hundreds of examples from my own experience. Are amplifiers sometimes used in situations where they are not needed? Of course they are. Does this bother me? Not really.
Is QRP fun? You bet it is! Again I could cite hundreds of examples from my own experience.
Is having an amplifer at one's disposal worth the expense? That's for each ham to decide.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AA8X on August 12, 2008
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When you live in an area with antenna restrictions, and can’t install a decent antenna, then maximum power output is the only answer.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W0DLR on August 12, 2008
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Well the "article" sure brought on a lot of replies.
You can read some of the replies and see how Detroit still sells Escalades and Expiditions. Attitudes are apparent. If there isn't a hole out there where you can talk, just burn one.
To each his own.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K3EY on August 12, 2008
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I don't know---do you need an amp? Been playing radio almost 27 years mostly CW without towers and mono banders but simple wire antennas. I would call CQ 8 to 10 times and maybe get an answer or two and most the time it's state side a few states away. Then I bought an amplifier a while back. I still operate CW with the same old antennas I always used only with a solid KW out instead of 100 watts. And the difference is? Well I need a good receiver to filter out all the stations calling me, and mostly DX. It's like being on the other side of a pile-up. No you don't need an amp, nor do you need that red sports car---but me, I will never again be without an amp. And to think I have 38 states worked QRP. I bet I never get around to finishing the QRP award since I run my amp every time I turn the radio on, every time.
Oh by the way---I never mention my amp while in QSO and nobody asks, they just say-- you’re the strongest signal out of the states this evening. If this makes me a bad guy, well, we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God…I am just another sinner.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N4FOZ on August 12, 2008
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I, personally, have never run an HF Amp. I just work harder on my antenna. Then again, it becomes frustrating continually trying to make certain contacts, without success, without one.
Back to work on my antenna.
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Guitarists Hijack Another Topic.
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by K5END on August 12, 2008
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I use a Jeff Beck strat with lace pickups and a custom built "LPaul," Super Reverb, Soldano, and then there is the amp I built from scratch, based on the old 5E3 schematic that Fender copied from Western Electric.
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RE: Guitarists Hijack Another Topic.
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by KC2WI on August 12, 2008
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Don't have one. Don't really feel the need.
May get one some day. But only after I have a better antenna system to push the power into. Which probably also means only after (if) I move and don't have neighbors so close. So far, no RFI complaints and I don't want any.
I'm not opposed to amps, but I do think it might be better overall for the hobby if everyone was limited to 100, maybe 250 watts on HF. Still wouldn't totally 'even the playing field' because of antenna differences, but would be a start.
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RE: Guitarists Hijack Another Topic.
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by KC2WI on August 12, 2008
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Oh, yeah ... hijacked topic. Used to have a Fender Princeton Amp & Gibson SG. Sold them, got a Epiphone 12-string... Is that like QRP??
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NM2K on August 12, 2008
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My ham amp is an old Ameritron AL-80A that I bought new many years ago. I only use it when conditions demand. I can't imagine talking on 75 phone without it. At least during the summer months.
Putting up a superior antenna system is nice when you have the space and resources, but not many hams live in such conditions.
My previous home was in the center of a small town with a very small lot. I went through the usual attempts of running a random wire (ouch!), commercial verticals and so on. Then I tried a Van Gordon Shorty All Bander bent and contorted to fit the lot. I was astounded that this poor, $50, wire antenna could whoop the pants off of the much more expensive commercial verticals.
No, this is not the wire antenna that you would choose if you had a huge lot, some big trees and the ability to scale said trees. But for someone living in cramped quarters, but with at least a little lot, it is impossible to beat. At least that has been my experience.
Ed, NM2K
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W9JCM on August 12, 2008
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Nothing Like Running a 10,000 Watt Blow Torch Pal!
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AD4U on August 13, 2008
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Well if you can't hear me with 1500 watts, wait a minute and I will fire up the big amp.
Dick AD4U
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W8KQE on August 13, 2008
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The only amp I run is my Hughes & Kettner 20th Anniversary model, fed by my ESP 'Gus G' model going through a BOSS GT-10 multi-effects pedal. For exotic DX work, I run a 'Zaxarias Bouzouki', while thinking of Monk Apollo at Mt. Athos...
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W2QHH (SK) 352 countries, 20 watts, 264' wire ant.
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by KW4CQ on August 13, 2008
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Can you do that without your big Boss Hogg amplifier? Betcha' can't.
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RE: Guitarists Hijack Another Topic.
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by N8NSN on August 13, 2008
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Well it only stands to reason...
Here us bassists are left standing in the back ground... Again... Like always... The guitar dudes get all the chicks :(
It's a conspiracy !
Still, for every 100 watts that the guitar amp delivers; We bassists must match it with 300 watts.
Low frequency does not "cut through" the air as effortlessly as mid and high frequencies do. (true fact)
Mids and highs move "through the air"
Low frequencies "move THE air" ;)
Loudly amplified guitar make your ears ring.
Loudly amplified bass makes your belly hurt ! :P
Yep, thought I better send in the troops for us bassists in the "hi-jacked" section of the RF linear amplifier topic.
Layin it down in the pocket with several basses, favorite of which is my '79 P bass with EMG split and an EMG J Bass pickup added at the tail. Mmmmmmmm
For the smaller venue arrangement on stage rig ...Bi-amping with 500W into a 2-15 cabinet and 450W into a 4-10 cabinet. AMPEG pre-amplification for that SAH-WEET tube velvet.
I didn't realize that a HI_JACKED topic could be so FUN ! ! ! :P
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AI4WM on August 13, 2008
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Amps have their purpose I guess. I have fun with my 100 to 120 watts and even (yep even now with the poor band conditions) QRP.
What needs to be done is enforcement of the FCC R & R on the phone bands who not only for those that have spurious for hundreds of kHz, but even modulation that is far from within legal limits. Then there is the language...a whole new topic.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K6AER on August 13, 2008
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This posting will generate, in general, two kinds of reply’s:
Those who can afford a legal limit amplifier and use them… and those who can’t afford a legal limit amplifier and rationalize why they don’t need one while lambasting any one who does have an amplifier.
Amplifiers are a tool and I might add if you have a quiet receive location you will find yourself using the amplifier a lot more for most hams listening on HF have a high noise floor and need the additional EIRP in their direction.
The antenna is the best place to start improving you station performance but many hams are restricted in what they can do with antennas at their location. Having the additional ability to provide more signal in their direction makes their communication experience much more satisfying. Most mobile stations will not answer your CQ when you are running 100 watts. Turn on the amplifier and they come out of the wood work.
Doing weak signal work on 6 and 2 meters? With an amplifier the band comes alive with reply’s.
Many times I have struggled hearing a ham due to conditions or QRM only to hear that they have an amplifier but don’t want to turn it on for they are ,”saving it”. Saving it for what? This is like using a rock to pound a nail when you own a nice hammer.
When using an amplifier, the tubes will last for 30 years if you don’t overdrive them. My Alpha 86 had the same 3CX800A7’s for 24 years and still produce 2300 watts into a dummy load with only 50 mills of grid current. Properly used amplifier will last a very long time.
While I am on the subject of properly using an amplifier it greatly helps to have your antenna at 50 ohms resonance. Many legal limit amplifiers will not tolerated high VSWR. This is because the VSWR voltages on the coax are very high at 1500 watts. Bottom line is don’t use a amplifier on your G5RV unless the match is good and the antenna components are able to withstand the higher currents and voltages. All the time I read about hams buying high power amplifiers and they have reliability problems due to their loading into non resonance lines and not realizing they are exceeding the amplifier component ratings while loading into a coax line with 4:1 VSWR.
Yes you can work many countries while QRP but this is antidotal. Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AA5JG on August 13, 2008
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"When you live in an area with antenna restrictions, and can’t install a decent antenna, then maximum power output is the only answer."
No, moving to somewhere without property Nazis is the better solution.
73s John AA5JG
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KG4ZVA on August 13, 2008
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It seems everyone who has an amp has every excuse they need ready for running one.
Its really simple: big amp means you need no skills!
And others saying they dont and/or wont work a weak station? Are you for real? You REALLY think this is in the spirit of ham radio?? No wonder the airwaves are like they are.
It seems the higher you go in license, the EASIER you want it!
Lets make a SIMPLE CW QRP tranceiver!
(of course you dont want to build anything COMPLICATED do we?? Have you built a multi-band, multi-mode rig that might just actually INTEREST people?)
Lets put our call on a computer so we dont even have to open our mouths and talk! The computer does it for you!
Lets get the BIGGEST amp we can!
(Again heaven forbid we might have to WORK at trying to CONTACT that station!)
Lets make sure EVERYONE we care to talk to get the BIGGEST amp,too! (We can't be bothered with someone who isn't recieved at +30 and/or full quieting now can we?? We might actually have to ADJUST something! OMG!!)
I agree with what was stated earlier, an amp is just another tool. Used wisely it can be an assett. Abused it can detract from your station. Its a tool. Its like a hammer vs an air hammer. Both work but one requires more effort. Does the air hammer make things easier? Sure! But then again, some people take GREAT SATISFACTION in using THEIR OWN SKILLS rather than using the "easy way".
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RE: Guitarists Hijack Another Topic.
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by K4LVR on August 13, 2008
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I will let the Guitarists and Bassists fight it out for amplification... My Pearl Forum rig needs no such electronic assistance. My rig features "master time base pulse width synchronized semi serial modulation". All my emmissions are "damped wave", just like in the days of spark.
My rig is more complicated and takes more inteligence to assemble,use effectively, and more time for setup and strike than the others in the pileup.
After all, the aforementioned operators only need to use two appendages (and sometimes your tongue, if youre Chaim Witz) to create their QRM, and I have to coordinate all four sometimes serially, sometimes in parallel, all at the same time, setting the time base for the pileup.
And you will really pay attention to the Paiste Crash effects, too!
-lu-
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W1CTN on August 13, 2008
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Yes I do now.
I find it a pleasure to operate with the additional power available to me.
I've been a ham for 41 years now. I've developed my antenna farm to the extent of my property, wallet and ambition.
So W1CTN has the best antenna system it can have or will for the forseeable future.
160-30 Resonant Dipoles and 1/4 wave wire verticals
20-10 T10 Log Periodic at 53'
20-10 Elements to South America @ 30'
Pretty vanilla station.
During my first 40 years I operated from 2 watts to 200 watts output. It was, and still is fun, but I know the limitations of my station.
After 40 years one should know what works or doesn't work in this hobby. If you don't, you should be stamp or butterfly collecting.
So how do you generate a stronger signal...For me, an amp was the answer to the question.
Using an amplifier, with the present band conditions, has allowed me to do what I like to do the most in the hobby: Get to know the other guy on the other end of the circuit with a good rag chew. Especially on 20 meters, SSB.
On CW I still operate barefoot.
I can now call CQ, find someone to chat with, and hold a frequency. Or in reverse call someone and do the same without the other op saying...you're a little light here, let's do this again under better conditions.
I don't overdrive my amp...a comfortable 800 W to a KW is what I use. My amp is an old gal, but with a healty set of lungs. She still has headroom, but I don't use it.
Use it if you have it...but respect the station next to you.
Don't we all want to make contacts and have fun...Ham radio is the ultimate "Contact Sport".
73
W1CTN
Radio Ansonia
PS: The amp is a 20 yr old LK 500 ZA
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC9EOT on August 13, 2008
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Interesting and expert with a ham license obtained in July 08 with no previous record
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC2RGU on August 13, 2008
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"Interesting and expert with a ham license obtained in July 08 with no previous record"
Interesting. Another ham who doesn't know how to use the ULS.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC9EOT on August 13, 2008
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Interesting and expert with a ham license obtained in July 08 with no previous record
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W1CTN on August 13, 2008
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Check the detailed info on QRZ...2008 is when I received my Extra...
And you point is...
73
Dave W1CTN
ex-WN1LRV
ex-WA1LRV
ex-WA1UUD
and second holder of W1CTN. Which was originally issued to my late Uncle Andrew Ranhosky issued as "1CTN" in 1922. I can never remember not being around ham radio.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W9OY on August 13, 2008
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Who is the one with the skill when you are puny weak, the transmitting station or the receiving station?
DUH
73 W9OY
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by STRAIGHTKEY on August 13, 2008
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>Who is the one with the skill when you are puny weak, the transmitting station or the receiving station?
>DUH
Actually there's no simple duh answer. In a pileup there's clearly more skill required of the transmitting station. In non-pileup situations it could be argued the receiving station needs more skill. In reality the receiving station either hears the puny weak station or it doesn't and there's not much skill involved. Having operated qrp for years, most QRO stations hear you just fine, especially in contests. The whole "it takes more skill to receive a qrp signal" argument in my opinion has been overblown.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W4VR on August 13, 2008
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Some folks run excessive power...more than 3 kW. The FCC does not really care, unless someone complains about interference. If you feel that 100 watts does the job for you, then stay as you are and don't pollute the airwaves. But, it's always nice to have that extra power when needed.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AF3Y on August 13, 2008
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KG4ZVA, who has had his TECHNICIAN ticket for all of FOUR MONTHS now sez:
"It seems everyone who has an amp has every excuse they need ready for running one.
Its really simple: big amp means you need no skills!
And others saying they dont and/or wont work a weak station? Are you for real? You REALLY think this is in the spirit of ham radio?? No wonder the airwaves are like they are.
It seems the higher you go in license, the EASIER you want it!"
Perhaps he should hone HIS skills and see if he can move up where it is "easier"?? Gene AF3Y
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by VE3TMT on August 13, 2008
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In my 18 years as a ham, I've never owned an amp except for the 2m Mirage I recently picked up for SSB work. I've used 100w to verticals, dipoles and longwires. Do I need an amp? Simply put, no. Would I like an amp? Yes. There are many times I would like to have the extra power, especially during the RTTY contests so I don't stress the rig so much. Believe it or not I crack most of the big pile-ups sooner or later. Technique goes a long way. If I had to choose between a beam or an amp, I'd take the beam any day.
Max
VE3TMT
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W3LK on August 13, 2008
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AF3Y:
Gene, you beat me to it. Don't you just love a newbee know-it-all?
73,
Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KASSY on August 13, 2008
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Someone said:
"Having operated qrp for years, most QRO stations hear you just fine, especially in contests. The whole "it takes more skill to receive a qrp signal" argument in my opinion has been overblown."
If that's true, then why is there such a disparity between the QSO counts of high-power stations, even those with wire antennas, and QRP stations, in contests? Perhaps low power also means low ambition?
I've heard this claim many times, that effectively claims QRP has no drawbacks. But the evidence out there says this is unmitigated flatulence. If QRP was not a drawback, then why would QRP organizations sponsor QRP-only sprints, etc? If QRP was not a drawback, then why would QRP operators request an extra "multiplier" in contests for running QRP? Or think they ought to get special credit for WAS if done with QRP? Or brag about miles-per-watt?
I admit it. I bought an amp. I looked at my operating. I operate on 160 through 10 meters. All bands. SSB and CW. There were times that I could hear a station and could not work them. Sometimes DX, sometimes local, but in a location where they had high line noise, etc. I had skeds with friends that didn't work out so well due them having static crashes, etc. SSB or CW.
Sure, I could have improved my antennas. Let's see, to add 10dB on 160 through ten meters by improving the antennas, I'd have to raise the Yagis a good 50 feet, and...oh, my, do you know how much effort is required to add 10dB gain to full-sized dipoles and verticals on 40 and 80 meters? And to any 160 antenna?
I couldn't afford it! But I could readily afford $3000 for a used 160-10 meter Alpha 91b and the $500 for an electrician to run 240VAC to the shack.
I only use it when I can't be heard on 100W. Which I use almost all the time on SSB. If I get into a QSO and someone says "wow you're loud", I do cut back the power. But if I'm ragchewing, the communications objective is to enjoy the QSO with no strain on either end, which IMO means a higher S/N ratio than if I'm just chasing SKCC numbers. On CW, I most often start at 20 watts, and go up or down from there as condx suggest.
And yes, many times, when in QSO, particularly on QRP frequencies, I'm told "hard to copy, can you QRO?" and I know I'm doing THEM a favor by doing so.
- k
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N2OBM on August 13, 2008
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The return of 'Dollar per dB'....
EIRP(effective transmitter power based on that theoretical reference point)=10 log (watts;dBW)-LL (line loss in dB)+ Antenna gain(dBi)
I will put that beam as high as practical...
I will not 'go cheap' on the coax....
I will (when I save enough of my pennies) buy a Commander HF-2500 (by then it will not be made in Ohio)...
OH, the RX side??? Headphones, manipulate the RIT, BPT, ATT/RF gain, DSP skirts, Notch filter and the NB...see there IS still SOME skill required!
With all of the hate in the WORLD, why do we need to bring it into our hobbies?
73,
OBM
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W8JI on August 13, 2008
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This speakout piece mostly shows how we need to help educate people about radio systems.
If you run more power the range where people hear YOU adequately is extended.
If you run a better feedline or more efficient antenna at HF it does exactly the same thing, it extends the transmitting range only.
If you run a higher gain antenna it might not help receiving at all, or it might. It will help the transmitting if the gain is in the right direction and at the right angle, but that does NOT guarantee better receiving than a lower gain system might have.
If you run a more directive antenna or an antenna further away from noise sources, it generally helps the receiving BUT it might not help the transmitter at all.
It is often cheaper to run an amp and a better receiving antenna than it is to run a better transmitting antenna and no amp, *especially* on lower bands.
If people say you are too weak, you probably are actually too weak. Don't blame them for having a good transmitting station or the band being noisy! It isn't their fault you have low ERP.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N8UW on August 13, 2008
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I'm casual CW, and got an amp because I could and because of what I read on the internet. I now understand what I read was about a different type of ham operation than casual CW. I've found 800W does help sometimes with CW, but not enough to justify the amp, in my case. So, I will soon have a lightly used AL-80B for sale. Unless someone teaches me how to work the voice modes.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K2WH on August 13, 2008
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What I find truly astonishing after seeing this question come up from time to time, the people who say they don't like amps or amps aren't necessary, have no idea an amp is being used unless, the user actually says he is using one.
In other words, some hams think that a S9+30db signal is an automatic amp is in use signal. I'll say it again, unless you actually witness a ham using an amp, are told he is using an amp, you have no of knowing the ham is using an amp. Most of the time it's just very good propagation.
K2WH
BTW, I have a 2.5kw amp sitting on my shelf in the basement that I have not used in 5 years simply because its too heavy to carry up the stairs.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KG4ZVA on August 13, 2008
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KG4ZVA, who has had his TECHNICIAN ticket for all of FOUR MONTHS now sez????
ummmm...better check again and get your facts straight moron
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KK9H on August 13, 2008
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Yes, 1 KW+ that's just the push of a button away.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KG4ZVA on August 13, 2008
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AF3Y:
Gene, you beat me to it. Don't you just love a newbee know-it-all?
73,
Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut
and again check your facts. OH WAIT!! THAT MIGHT take EFFORT!....it always seem the ones who act most intelligent are usually the dumbest of the lot
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AB7E on August 13, 2008
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Just because W0DLR is content to limit himself to an occasional domestic ragchew contact doesn't mean that the rest of the world should conform to his one-size-fits-all view of amateur radio. There are many situations where an amplifier makes great sense for more than just the gas guzzler crowd.
1. The guy who is limited to simple antennas but who has a good receiving antenna or a quiet QTH.
2. The DXer trying to snag a rare one in Asia or Africa where QRN levels are often exceptionally high.
3. The ham who prefers to focus on the low bands.
4. The contester who wants to maximize his score to boost his club totals, or simply to keep the rate more interesting.
5. The ham who thinks reliable communication might occasionally mean more than waiting for optimum propagation.
Dave AB7E
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N4JTE on August 13, 2008
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ANYBODY GOT AN ARTICLE OUT THERE ? It's becoming obvious that the "articles editor" is running out of stuff that I, and most of us, would consider an
" ARTICLE", like something you would see in a Magazine about our hobby that is informative, interesting and with any luck; RELEVANT, as opposed to what's been on here lately which could not pass a high school yearbook review. I am not really interested in an "ARTICLE" that asks a question, give me something to read and think about and provide some new information I and others might find informative.
Obviously the pickings are slim in the old eham article submissions. Somebody save us with a real "ARTICLE" and fill the gap; PLEASE!
Bob
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC2FTN on August 13, 2008
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Sequence of events at the KC2FTN compound:
1. Turn on Astron RS-35A power supply.
2. Power-up the 706MKIIG.
3. Power-up the 756PRO.
4. Turn on W2IHY 8-band equalizer.
5. Power-up AL-80B amp.
Now I'm good to go...
QRP thru QRO.
'Nuff said.
Mike KC2FTN
www.hamwave.com
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by G8JNJ on August 14, 2008
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Hi All or should it be (amp on) HI ALL !
I have observed this debate with interest.
Operating conditions in the UK and parts of Europe are quite different from those found in the US (although I see that you are starting to get a taste of it with (CC&R / Homeowners Association regulations)
In the UK and a fair part of Europe the power limit on most bands is typically around 400W PEP (which many folks in the US seem to consider being QRP).
Because of this upper power limit the difference between running 100w or the 400 watt legal limit is hardly noticeable.
Also in the UK most inter G and near Europe communications on 160m are conducted at power levels of around 30w PEP, despite very high levels of QRM & QRN. The consequence of this power limit is that serious operators spend a lot of time and effort getting the best from their antenna systems (frequently using separate antennas for TX & RX) and radios.
In my opinion the 400 watt limit is fairly sensible, as the density of housing in urban areas of the UK means that if you try and run more than this sort of power you are asking for trouble with your neighbours. However when this is coupled with limited amount of space (or cosmetic requirements) for antenna systems in modern housing developments, it is not surprising that European stations seem to have acquired a reputation with US operators for always being weak signals.
I don’t own an amp, and I’m not against the use of them, but I can’t help but feel it’s a lazy way of working, which tends to stifle other forms of development. The analogy I would use is that of the automobile. Where recent requirements to save on fuel consumption and reduce emissions have resulted in a spurt of new developments and technologies. Limitations on the level of transmitted power may actually encourage experimentation with other modes (WSPR springs to mind with a S/N ratio requirement of -30dB) and stimulate more innovation which seems to be lacking in Amateur radio...
Personally I haven’t reached the point (yet) of not being able to improve my antennas and radio system enough yet to consider buying an amp, and the UK power limitations don’t make the 6dB improvement I’d gain, worth the money I’d have to spend.
Regards,
Martin – G8JNJ
www.g8jnj.webs.com
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W9OY on August 14, 2008
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Straitkey
If you think its your nimble transmitter techniques that get your puny weak signal copied your QRP denial system in intact. My proof are the dozens of QRP ops that all of a sudden have to QRT when I turn my power down to puny weak.
You get copied for one reason, because the receiving station is willing to go the extra mile to put up with you.
73 W9OY
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by STRAIGHTKEY on August 14, 2008
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>ANYBODY GOT AN ARTICLE OUT THERE ?
The problem is the real article writers left Eham some time ago due to the garbage that is allowed to continue here day in and day out. Who wants to submit an article when a group of clowns will inevitably turn it into a "who hates the no coders more" contest or an ARRL bashfest. Posters who continually post personal attacks, obvious trolling, and sometimes outright disgusting material aren't banned from the site. Also, when articles with obvious misspellings, poor grammar, or incomplete/pointless material are common, who wants their material to be associated with such a site?
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K5END on August 14, 2008
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quote, "by N4JTE. ANYBODY GOT AN ARTICLE OUT THERE ? It's becoming obvious that the "articles editor" is running out of stuff that I, and most of us, would consider an " ARTICLE", like something you would see in a Magazine about our hobby that is informative, interesting and with any luck; RELEVANT"
Hmmm... wasn't one of the recent artcles written by, uh, you?
:-)
(?)
Are you saying that your own was not a good article?
I thought your article was good.
Some readers liked your article and they liked the two recent articles (power line and lightning safety) I wrote, or at least they said so in their comments.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC9EOT on August 14, 2008
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Yes your right, it takes a little more skill to operate an amplifier, not much but a little
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KI4CRA on August 14, 2008
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I have been licensed for 13 years now, active on the low bands for 6 years. For the last 5 years and 6 months I had no need for an amplifier. One day in June that all changed. Being active on 40 Mtr. phone in the mornings on the treasure coaster net (7.133 8am-9am) I have been having a hell of a time being heard in NY, Ct. Me. etc. Well one morning in June I was going through the ads on another website to remove my ad for my GAP Titan vertical. As I was going thru these ads one in particular caught my eye; will trade a Kenwood TS-680 and an Ameritron AL-811 amp for an FT-897D. Well I had an 897D, that was sitting out back collecting dust, so I thought WHY not! E mailed the guy, we made arrangements, a straight trade 2 for one OK, well got everything about a week later the TS-680 works FB, the amp got new tubes (weather it needed them or not, and a new relay board, and a plate current meter total out lay for the amp was in the neighborhood of $125.
On 40 meter phone I have been using a 102' G5RV, not the best of antennas, but then again not the worst. Once all the repairs had been done on the amp and I fired it the first time on the Treasure Coasters net all I heard was WOW, WHAT A SIGNAL MARK! WHAT DID YOU DO? Well when I told them I had finally got all the repairs done on my AL-811, they all agreed that my signal to those guys in places I mentioned earlier was at minimum 2 S units better, and in some cases 3 S units, I kinda said to myself, why did you wait so long to get an amp?
Now having said that, about the only time and place I use my amp is on40 meter phone in the mornings. I have a Mosley 3 ele TA-33 on top of a 52' crank up tower, haven't really had a chance or need to use the amp on 20 meters yet. As has been said many times on this post an amplifier is a tool, one that can be used at your own discretion. Would I go out and buy a new 1.5 KW amplifier-- probably not, if I found a good second hand one-- maybe, maybe not. Yea the AL-811 is just 600 watts, a no frills linear, but it works for me.
I guess that is what it all boils down to, what works for you, you are the only one who knows what you need at a certain time, on a specific frequency. If an amplifier work for what you need it for the great, but if you bought it just so you could keep up with the crowd, and it sits on or under your desk and you haven't even powered it up in more than 6 months, then maybe you need to sell it off and get something you will use. I'm not saying amps are good or bad, but in my case I wish I had got one sooner. Just as an aside, I had my TS-680 out last week to a community function had the 680 to a 20 meter hamstick dipole and my old Dentron Monitor Jr tuner I worked Austria with that set up, the dipole was up 20-25' it took me a while but I got him and an S-8 signal report to boot. So you don't always need more power. 73 all hope to catch you on the air.
73 de AI4HO
Mark
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W7ETA on August 14, 2008
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If nothing else, the posts pontificating how other ops should run and operate their stations, are fowl, fodder for buoyantly, bemused, bovine, botulism laced BoyScout entertainment--broadcasted, bodacious, baby, boondoggles, boastfully, brayed, by bipolar bragadoons .
KN
Bob
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N2OBM on August 14, 2008
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TO W8JI:
>If you run a better feedline or more efficient antenna at HF it does exactly the same thing, it extends the transmitting range only.
..."the transmitting range only." ?????
Way to many variables to even begin to type such a general comment.
As I typed above, my beam high as pratical...I will model the take off angle from one of the VOACAP models that applies..my intended target is CONUS.
Andrews Cinta with >80dB shielding...it keeps my RF where it should be until launched by my antennae...and don't get me started about my local, smalltown cable company...leaks all over the lower VHF thru UHF spectrum...it is a two way LEAK; but I must keep it civil with my neighbors.
And how could all of those books be wrong when figuring total system 'two-way' performance...??
TX output(dBw/dBm)-(line loss)+ Ant. gain(TX)+ Ant. gain(RX)-(line loss)-Rr(reliability factor)must be > SNL(min) or Tfm.
I am at Fort Gordon as I type this...my homework (done)is to figure 'planning range' of ground to ground and ground to air FM systems. Last week it was profiling HF systems for NVIS and long haul nets.
Next week...try to derive meaningful info from the Redbook.
It's all about attention to detail...noisy switching power supplies, noise on the AC line, good regulated DC power, coax line loss, antenna pattern, intended target, power transfer, radio specs...and of course...what the XYL will tolerate;).
The rigs at the house? Drake TR7A and Icom 746PRO...if one has a hard time on RX...flip the switch...not a TT or a 7800 but IMHO, the best of both worlds on my budget. The amp will happen...someday.
73,
OBM
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by STRAIGHTKEY on August 14, 2008
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>If you think its your nimble transmitter techniques that get your puny weak signal copied your QRP denial system in intact. My proof are the dozens of QRP ops that all of a sudden have to QRT when I turn my power down to puny weak.
I doubt you have "dozens". As long as the receiver sensitivities are close on both sides and there's no QRM involved, it's likely they'll hear you.
There are several contests that are exclusively QRP in which people make lots of contacts. If the issue was as widespread as you would suggest, these contests would yield little if any contacts and would disappear due to lack of interest.
There are certainly times when more power is needed, but with CW I would venture to say we more often than not use much more power than is needed. With CW one can usually copy an S1 signal just as well as a 20 over S9 signal.
>You get copied for one reason, because the receiving station is willing to go the extra mile to put up with you.
In some instances this is true, but not in a pileup. In that scenario it's very much about skill, especially timing. And perseverance. And the "extra mile" you mention in practice is usually just turning up the gain or asking for a report again.
I can't recall anyone ever asking me to QRO when running QRP. You either make the contact or you don't, send the report once, twice, or three times, or if ragchewing it's a long QSO or a short QSO depending on conditions.
I think most of the people complaining about where the skill is in QRP are QRO operators who are upset that someone with an inexpensive QRP rig and five watts can make contacts nearly as well as them with multi-thousand dollar stations with amps, and have just as much fun. You can buy equipment but you can't buy patience and skill.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NI0C on August 14, 2008
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Here are some facts to keep in mind.
The FCC allows the use of up to 1500 watts output power on most amateur bands. There is no requirement for hams to "justify" to others their use of amplifiers within the limits of the law to achieve their operating goals.
More often than not, DX contacts reported by QRP'ers are not two-way QRP-- rather they are asymmetric QSO's (with higher power and superior antenna on the DX end).
More often than not, the hams wielding amplifiers in the dx pileups also have honed their operating skills over the years by doing their time with lower power.
Half-baked articles, submitted for "trolling" purposes rather than providing any real information, generally result in a poorer quality discussion.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC9EOT on August 15, 2008
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NI0C
Well said, To the author of this post, look if you post something like this people are going to have fun with you and thats what we are doing or at least what I am doing. If you dont want and amp I support your choice. I choos to have and amp because I like building and I have built a 3-500Z and will continue to build stuff in the future. Who know what I will build next but thats what HAM radio is all about isn't it. I want and amp you dont, has nothing to do with need except if you like to DX of course. Have a good one and enjoy your radio
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by STRAIGHTKEY on August 15, 2008
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>The FCC allows the use of up to 1500 watts output power on most amateur bands. There is no requirement for hams to "justify" to others their use of amplifiers within the limits of the law to achieve their operating goals.
The 1500 watt rule is Part 97.313(b). Read Part 97.313(a):
"An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications. "
While it's unlikely to be enforced, the language is there for them to have to justify the power to others, with "others" being the FCC. If another station says you're 20 over 9, you could easily reduce transmit power 20 dB and carry out desired communications. Still, you see operators continue to run 1.5kW in situations like this and it's technically a rule violation. I don't recall "operating goals" being defined in the rules or being a valid justification.
>More often than not, DX contacts reported by QRP'ers are not two-way QRP-- rather they are asymmetric QSO's (with higher power and superior antenna on the DX end).
QRP doesn't mean inferior antennas, it only means low power. QRP operators often use superior antennas. Anyone with an understanding of dB and the RF link budget understands why antenna gain is important in QRP operation.
>More often than not, the hams wielding amplifiers in the dx pileups also have honed their operating skills over the years by doing their time with lower power.
Perhaps, though with an amp the need for skill is minimized as brute force (stepping on top of everyone) usually wins out over skill. If they were able to hone their skills over the years with lower power and make contacts, why is an amp necessary later? Maybe the need for instant gratification and less effort?
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AE5I on August 15, 2008
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Well, if the fellow on the other end is telling you "if you have an amp, please turn it on" then I'd say that the answer to your question is pretty well a no-brainer: you do need an amp, at that time. I suspect that the receiving station is in a better position to make a proper determination as to your possible need of an amp than you are. After all, he's the one trying to hear your signal.
Now, if he's hearing you fine at S5 and doesn't need more signal to keep a good copy, then you probably don't need an amp, at that time.
As someone else has already said: there is no standard answer to that question. An amp is a tool, and a good one. Sometimes you need it, sometimes you don't.
And sometimes only a few db can make the difference.
I called a special event station for a half hour or more the other night on 30 meters, running 100 watts, and never got his attention. I fired up the amp and ran it up to just under the legal limit for 30 meters and got him on the first call. Anecdotal, yes....scientific, no. But the same thing has happened to me many times on many bands. And firing up an amp in those circumstances has almost NEVER failed to help me get the QSO.
Amps are like Ted Nugent's "pocket knife, clean handkerchief and pistol".....things you can use, but in the right manner and at the right time.
Having an amp and using it properly has nothing to do with the "roundtable where everybody is hearing everybody else at 40 db above the noise floor". THAT is over-use of ERP. Not necessarily over-use of a PA, but over-use of ERP. If one of the "40 over" crowd is running a three tower phased array at 100 watts to achieve enough ERP to be 40 over the noise floor, then what he is doing is NO different from running an amp with a less efficient antenna system.
Fortunately, it's up to each individual operator to decide how much ERP he needs and how he will choose to achieve it.
73 and have a great weekend!
Tom AE5I
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N0AH on August 15, 2008
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On the low bands, you have to be heard above S-9 noise in many places. Understand conditions, and you'll better understand the need for an amp- Any thing above 20M, and I feel an amp is a waste. Its all about antennas here.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NI0C on August 16, 2008
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Straightkey writes: "Read Part 97.313(a):
"An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications. " "
This portion of the FCC rules is technically unsound and unenforceable. I don't recall a single instance where it has been applied.
The problem with the language lies in the words "desired communications," and how that translates into a specific signal-to-noise ratio, which in turn relates to both the speed and error rate of communications.
Some QRP'ers would have us believe the intent of the rule is to have everyone at the noise level, while some of the 75m crowd interprets the rule to mean broadcast quality communications. Obviously, the different interests of ham radio operators leaves room for both interpretations.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NI0C on August 16, 2008
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Straightkey also wrote:
"QRP doesn't mean inferior antennas, it only means low power. QRP operators often use superior antennas. Anyone with an understanding of dB and the RF link budget understands why antenna gain is important in QRP operation."
We both used qualified our postings with the word "often." Therefore we're both correct.
"Perhaps, though with an amp the need for skill is minimized as brute force (stepping on top of everyone) usually wins out over skill. If they were able to hone their skills over the years with lower power and make contacts, why is an amp necessary later? Maybe the need for instant gratification and less effort?"
If you've ever been in a DX pileup chasing a station over a difficult transient polar path opening, you would realize that many people in such a pileup have literally zero chance of getting though. That's not because of others using amplifiers-- it's just that their signals are too weak regardless of competition.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K8JHR on August 16, 2008
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I applies in my house.
There is no room for interpretation. It says to lower power until
you have just enough to make the contact - and common sense
will tell you what that is - it is enough to hear each other clearly,
but your turned the power down until you found the point where
it was enough, but not more.
Makes sense to me. I turn my power down all the time.
/// K8JHR ///
============================================
Articles@eham.net wrote:
> This portion of the FCC rules is technically unsound and
unenforceable. I don't recall a single instance where it has been applied.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NI0C on August 16, 2008
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"It says to lower power until
you have just enough to make the contact - and common sense
will tell you what that is - it is enough to hear each other clearly,
but your turned the power down until you found the point where
it was enough, but not more."
Your paraphrase is a distortion of what the rule actually says. Again, the reason there is room for interpretation in the actual minimum power rule is that there are tradeoffs among transmitter power and information and error rates. These tradeoffs are merely alluded to in the phrase, "desired communications."
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KG4ZVA on August 16, 2008
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The FCC says to use minimum power needed to make your communications. I didn't see anything in the rules that talks about information and error rates. Common sense goes a long way,folks.
If you are being recieved well by the station you are trying to contact, then you don't NEED to increase power. If you are not, then an amp would help.
But for those who have to run their amp all the time and feel they have to justify it with every reason (excuse?)that has been posted on here, they are no better than the CBer's they always complain about.
If I can't break through a pile up, no problem. Its not the only frequency I can try. I move on and try others. I have had a few amps through the years but I don't have one now because I don't NEED one. It has nothing to do with whether I can AFFORD it or not. I make contacts everyday I'm on my radios without one, and I surely don't need it for any nets that I am involved in.
Two different HAMS have even said that I myself have been a ham for only 4 months so I must not KNOW ANYTHING!!
Well, all they did was prove how ignorant people can be regardless of their license. They must believe in the EASIEST way to do things like so many others on here or they would have gotten off their duffs and actually got the REAL facts. They must also believe that "ham radio" is the only way to learn ANYTHING about radio or they wouldn't make such ignorant statements. No one else uses radio? The military doesn't? Commercial interests don't? Nobody knows ANYTHING about radios or antennas unless they have been a ham for 20 years? That's IGNORANT!!
In fact I haven't been a ham for more than five years. HOWEVER!!!! IN FACT, I have been around two way radios all my adult life. I learned about radio procedures and euipment LONG BEFORE I BECAME A HAM.
And as for why I haven't upgraded? Why? So I can talk on the frequencies that YOU MORONS are on? I am perfectly happy where I am. If I decide to upgrade, it will be because I WANT to. NOT because I have to "fit in" with what others feel is necessary. All I have to do is come to eham.net and read the posts of some of you "better than you" extras,advances,etc. and that will give me every reason to NOT upgrade. Yes I am a tech. I LIKE being a tech. For those of you who feel I MUST upgrade, bite me. I'm happy where I'm at for now.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NK5G on August 16, 2008
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I have learned that any idiot can put 1kw into a hunk of metal or wire and work DX. It takes operating skill to work DX without an amp.
That being said, I conservatively run QRO and I also have a blast with QRP.
I think a real ham knows when to run the amp and when not to.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NI0C on August 16, 2008
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"The FCC says to use minimum power needed to make your communications. I didn't see anything in the rules that talks about information and error rates."
That was exactly the point I made in an earlier posting. Without a clear definition of a tolerable error rate, the rule is ambiguous and unenforceable. The FCC has left it up to the individual ham to decide what "desired communications" means.
Those who wish to specify how much power their fellow hams should be using would be well advised to find other outlets for their need to control others.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by M0PRO on August 16, 2008
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Without question, there is a good share of weak signal HF and VHF DX in my log (N8S on 20m comes to mind) that I simply would not have worked without QRO.
So do I really need an amplifier? Yes, most definately.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W0DLR on August 17, 2008
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Maybe the whole point should have been "Do you have more power or an attitude".
It seems that some with an amplifier (notice I said some before you get your testicles swollen up) have an attitude problem. I got one and bygawd I have the right to use it.
Ham radio is much like driving a car. Flip the switch to on, and who gives a damn if anyone else can enjoy the hobby.
Windbagging has about taken over our hobby, some call it as qso.
I applaud the QRP operator, a person with skills. Most of the time their equipment is either homebrew or kit built.
In the meantime, the radio has a knob that turns off blathering qso's I'm surprised the FCC hasn't completely pulled the plug on our hobby, someday it will, and it may be sooner than later.
The american public can do without our services and never miss it.
So, my last time to write anything for Eham or any other "ham thing". I'll leave that up to the experts, knowing full well the eham will be stuffed full of articles from now on. There are plenty of experts out there, this "article" proves that if nothing more.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AB7E on August 17, 2008
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Childishness in ham radio: trying to masquerade a purposely contentious opinion as an article, and then stalking off in a rambling pout because several peers (not "experts") refute it.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by VE9AAE on August 17, 2008
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"More often than not, the hams wielding amplifiers in the dx pileups also have honed their operating skills over the years by doing their time with lower power" You mean endlessly bellowing out the last half of their C/S over and over? Wow, must have taken years hone THAT skill!
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by W0DLR on August 18, 2008
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To AB7E...
""Do you have more power or an attitude"
Maybe the Arizona sun has been a little too hot for you.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KG6WLV on August 21, 2008
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On HF, I run barefoot into simple wire antennas, with a rotatable dipole for 17. To work DX, I usually have to be patient; I know the big guns will get the contact first -- hey, some guys have GREAT antennas compared to mine, regardless of whether or not they run power. It hones my skills and makes me a better op to run with this apparent handicap.
As far as RELIABLE communications, I know I can cover the western US with my setup. Anything beyond that is cake. Before -- or IF -- I go with power, I'd like to improve my antennas. The ideal combination is that which hears as well as it gets out.
Guys who want to ragchew casually on a regular basis want to be able to hear each other well, regardless of conditions. I don't mind that. All I expect is that they be polite to others, keep their transmissions clean and reasonably NARROW and power down if QRO is unnecessary.
Better antennas DO help with reception in some cases, especially directional ones that help null out interference or QRN. Running power to overcome an inferior antenna is rare, but I've heard it -- a guy in Ohio had a 20-over signal out here in California on 40 one night and never responded to my call -- okay, fair deal -- but he never responded to ANYBODY who called him. Perhaps he needed to hear better.
Also, why must "seasoned" hams look up someone's license history on qrz.com and then condemn them for their "newbie" comments? I have decades of experience with radio, but have been licensed for about four years.
Lastly, it seems that eham should limit the number of comments from one person in each thread; that would reduce the flame wars.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by AB7E on August 21, 2008
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KG6WLV: "Lastly, it seems that eham should limit the number of comments from one person in each thread; that would reduce the flame wars."
Good suggestion, but you don't understand the reality here ... eHam is the Jerry Springer of ham web sites. They WANT flame wars, and anything else that might pump up web site hits. Accuracy is unimportant and relevancy is irrelevant. Controversy, preferably emotional enough to provoke endless retaliation, is eHam's bread and butter.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by MM30 on August 22, 2008
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I dont personally own an amp and have no problem with folks that use them. For me I cant really run one with the situation that I am in (usually portable). I will say that most of the time...not all but most I run around 50 watts out into a small vertical or dipole and get out with no problem. I like to hear the big guns come in with the 20-30 over signal and make DX contacts while my peanut whistle set-up is still a 5/7 to the same station. Makes me happy to know I can still get out and make DX contacts with a very simple set-up. The latest on 20 meters and running 50 watts.....Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Northern Ireland, South Africa, and of course the UK. It can be done! 73 KC2PLJ
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N4VNV on August 23, 2008
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Hi Dave, you've got more guts than I do to write your comment about use of amplifiers. In my 30 years of hamming I had an amp for one year. Never again. When I was a ham in Germany the most awful direction to point the beam was the USA or towards Italy. To wrap up my comment, let me say this; When I call CQ, I ALWAYS answer the weakest signal if more than one replies.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by PLANKEYE on August 23, 2008
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I use amplifiers quite often and find them very useful:
Not as replacement for good antennas, but in addition to them.
Receivers really haven't gotten much better over 3-4-5 decades; dynamics have improved slightly and DSP features make them less fussy to use, but there certainly haven't been any gains in sensitivity -- we couldn't use more sensitive receivers on HF, anyway.
One thing that has happened is this new cycle (#24) is slow to start and the upper HF bands have been in the doldrums a lot. Good antenna + good operator + amplifier = contacts, when often if just one of these elements is missing, the sum is "no contacts."
I use amps a lot on SSB. Not so much on CW, where the mode already provides a nice S/N advantage.
WB2WIK/6
_________________________________________________
PLANKEYE:
NO CONTACTS?
Any of you new Hams reading the above post and my own post please listen!!
You don't need a good antenna, you don't need to be a good operator, nor do you need an amplifier to make CONTACTS!
YOU JUST NEED TO GET ON THE AIR!!
THAT IS HOW YOU MAKE CONTACTS!!
JUST TRY!! NO MATTER WHAT YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH!!
Enjoy this hobby and HAVE FUN!!!
PLANKEYE
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KC2OYZ on August 24, 2008
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No - you don't really need an amplifier. Your signal will be fine without an amp - except that no one will hear it because everyone else has an amp.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KQ9J on August 25, 2008
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:::Do you really need an amplifier?:::
Sounds like you do.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by VE7BDO on August 26, 2008
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You said:
RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
Again? Man, leave each to his own. I have an amp, and run it often. I sure can talk to a lot more people with it on than with it off.
I have to laugh, maybe if they had an amp they would be talking with someone instead of being here...lol
W2SFD
But, you're here too, aren't you?
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K7MH on August 27, 2008
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I sold my Henry 2KD-5 this weekend.
I am keeping my AL-1200 and AL-811 though so LOOK OUT!!
See ya in the pileups!!
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by KG4ZVA on August 28, 2008
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Quoted from another thread:
"And of note to the last article about amps.......I read on a recent internet posting from www.fca/worldradio/34WTR/fr that beginning in 2018, world wide amateur band power output levels will be resricted to 200W"
I would like to know if anyone else has heard about this?
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K9FON on August 29, 2008
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I do run an amp(i dont have one now though I sold my 811H and im waiting on a SWAN MKII) but not all the time. It comes in useful when the lower HF bands are noisy. I have never used QRP because im simply notinterested in it. To each their own. Just have fun!!! Thats wehat matters.
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by N3TNQ on August 29, 2008
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"But...Then there are those - Armpit Biting - Snarling -Growling - Spitting - Nasty - Rude - INCREDIBLY FUN - DX Pile Ups - in which a fellow would not want to be bringing a pocket knife - TO A GUN FIGHT! "
True, but there is a very real and definite feeling of satifaction when that DX station calls on you with your 100 watts over the big dogs : ) I guess I just don't care enough. I like the to make those contacts, but if I can't do it with my 100 watts then I don't really care. : )
Howard
N3TNQ
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by SO8ZH on August 31, 2008
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You are all right about the amps or no amps.
My own experience from way back in autumn 1959
when onboard a tanker near Florida running 150 watts
to Bergen Radio/LGB in Norway with the most wonderful
QSO talking to the family back home. That time no SSB
and no DSP. If conds are just right you will be
satisfied with low power and if conds not so good
ok with some more power. - Anyway - I am looking
foreward to the new season with sunspots and good
dx-ing - really looking foreward to be able to meet
you on the bands. Good luck to you all from/So8zh,
Kjell (Ken) in Garbow - Poland. 73`s.
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Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by NR8TV on August 31, 2008
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Mail this to a friend!
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I use my amp on 80 meters just to make it through.Some could not hear me and I needed relays.I did improve on the antenna.It works great during those noisy nights on 160.And then there is those times you just want to burn rubber in your 60's muscle car.(It's the same feeling.)All my ATV buddies (including myself) strive for the most power with the most antennas....monster hardline,preamps,filters, ect... I suppose we could just be satisfied with video with a little snow.As for the guys going from 20 over to 30 over with their amps on 80.I think it's great.If their not interfering,leave them alone.Just work some overtime and get permission from your wife to join them on test and tune night.Also,if you don't own an HF amp...it can't break down so you can fix it.(part of our hobby) Everybody take care and good luck getting the amp of your dreams,Dave NR8TV
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RE: Do You Have a Little More Power?
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by K8JHR on August 31, 2008
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Mail this to a friend!
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This last post by NR8TV clearly illustrates the ambivalent nature of amplifier usage. On the one hand, he says:
"I use my amp on 80 meters just to make it through.
Some could not hear me and I needed relays."
OK, that echoes the sentiment of several hams who said they use it to get out a workable signal and make the contact under difficult conditions (either poor propagation or compromised antennas, or the like.) A noble cause I can support.
But, he goes further and says:
"And then there is those times you just want to burn rubber
in your 60's muscle car. (It's the same feeling.) All my ATV
buddies (including myself) strive for the most power with the
most antennas... .monster hard-line, preamps, filters, etc..."
And herein lies the rub. This honest and well-intentioned ham first says he uses power for the right reason, i.e., to get through and make the contact without having to use relays. But then he reveals his true intent is to get an adrenaline rush and run with the big dogs - just for the thrill of it - just to feel the power.
Thus, I believe this exemplifies many other hams who use amps merely for the power rush and not because it is a tool to aid communication. According to FCC Rules, we are supposed to throttle down and use only as much power as reasonably necessary to work the contact. So,
I was in his corner at first, cheering him on to complete the ever elusive (maybe DX) "contact," but he lost me when he advocated the adrenaline rush.
I suggest this post exemplifies the dilemma / duality surrounding amplifier usage - one position I strongly support, and another I do not.
Thank you for considering my take. // K8JHR /
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