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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

How Do You Rate Your Antenna?

Alan Applegate (K0BG) on September 10, 2008
View comments about this article!

How Do You Rate Your Antenna?

I have expressed my pet peeves about how the uninformed rate their antennas, many times over. However, apparently some folks still just don't get it! For example, my recent article about being Suckered generated a fair amount of responses. One of those responses was the epitome of exactly what I was striving to bring forth! That is to say, a total lack of understanding of what constitutes a figure of comparison.

One very logical comparison is one specific antenna's gain (or lack of it), with respect to another. Typically expressed in dB, it doesn't mean much unless there is a descriptive suffix (dBi verses dBd as examples). What's more, I'm not going to banter the differences between dBi and dBd, and for very good reason; it is not an exact, subtractive figure! And, I will say (without reservation), an antenna's gain figure is only part of the story. In fact, sometimes gain can be a bad thing!

Another rabid ratings system it the Standing Wave Ratio (SWR). Here's something to cogitate. An unmatched, HF mobile antenna of decent quality, mounted properly, will exhibit an input impedance of 25 ohms (give or take a few ohms). This relates to an input SWR of 2:1. If yours is 1:1, then where did that extra 25 ohms come from? It sure wasn't an increase in radiation resistance!

Then there's the trite statement, I can work everything I can hear. I bet you can! Actually, the correct verbiage should be, I can work anything I can hear. At which, I'd reply, I bet you can't!

And the biggest misconception? The number of DX contacts made with said antenna. Excuse me, with the aforementioned in mind, how can the number of stations worked, DX or otherwise, constitute a comparative measurement?


Let's get realistic. There are two basic ways to define a measurement of comparison. They are; objective and subjective. Let's take them in order.

An objective measurement requires a definitive comparison between any two (or more) factors which lie in the same plane. This is another way of saying you can't compare apples and oranges. For example, an S meter's reading, although based on changes in signal strength and loosely on the dB, can't reliable be used to compare one antenna to another. When comparisons of this type are made, then we have the subjective case.

The subjective case is based on, or influenced by, personal feelings, tastes, and opinions. I venture to say, most amateurs use the subjective case, even when they're trying to be objective. I'll give you a prime example. There's a well known amateur who frequents these pages, with great, technical repute (my words, not his). He has often compared one antenna with another, by asking his on-air contacts for a comparison. The resulting reviews are mixed. However, when he tells the other stations that one of the antennas is a G5RV, the reports become rather lopsided. Why? Because we've left the realm of objectivity, into the world of subjective opinion! And, you can bet that you will get exactly what you ask for!


One of my close friends (a retired college professor) has often told me, that if you can't be objective, then be subjective by exaggerating your claim beyond reasonable belief! Maybe he's right, which would explain why the aforementioned ratings systems have evolved. However, speaking only for myself, when I see these types of comparisons, I view them with a grain of salt. I'd just wish they'd refrain from rubbing it in to an already bruised and bloody wound!

 

Alan, KØBG

www.k0bg.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W9PMZ on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
rubbish.......

to paraphrase a line from a move,

"show me the data!!!"

73,

carl - w9pmz

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KC5HMC on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I have seen the dDd/dBi thing for commercial radios. They use which ever one looks better numberwise hoping that a tech wouldn't notice or worse yet not know the difference.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by NV2A on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I did some subjective testing with some microphones. Had a stock MC-65 and a Heil DX cartridge. Over many many test I concluded that the one everyone thought most often sounded the best was the one they heard first? So much for subjective comparisons!

Good article, probably draw a lot of flak but good article just the same.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K5END on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Great article.

Thanks for posting it.

73
K5END
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KF4HR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Detailed analysis aside, I'd rate my antenna systems "GE" (good enough)... and move on.

KF4HR
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KB2DHG on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
One of the mysteries of life... Antennas, are truly the major topic in Amateur Radio...
Good article.
I think we miss a very important factor in antenna performance. This being location and surrounding conditions...
I just recently moved from a house in the country to an apartment in a city... At the house I had a 360 degree horizional view and was on top of a mountian. I had a beam antenna and a G5RV dipole for 80,40 meters. The G5RV worked GREAT on 10 - 80 meters. It was up high and in the clear.
Now at the apartment I have the G5RV mounted on top of the roof of the apartment which is 88 feet high and I have that up on a 20 foot mast. The performance now is poor to say the best! I have electrical noise and buildings all around me.
So as far as Rate your antenna goes, you must also figure the location and conditions around you.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WA3LWR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Rating an antenna without proper equipment is indeed a problem, but most hams do not have the proper setup for a detailed, proper comparison. However, they wish to share their findings with others to help them. I appreciate that and take it for what it is worth. My soil will be different, my RF ground will be better or worse, the height, structures around the antenna, etc. However, if someone tells me about a great antenna they use, I can make one and try it for myself.
I just ordered a Taktenna based on all the excellent reports on Eham. Will it work as well for the local ham club that I am donating it to? Time will tell, but I reviewed all their reports before deciding to get it, as unscientific as they may be.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K1CJS on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The antenna is only a part of the entire picture. The installation point (the area) is also a part. If you're down in a valley or in the middle of a city, the best antenna made may be only mediocre for transmitting/receiving, while if you're on top of a hill and have open space all around you, a mediocre (you can think 'compromise' here if you want to) antenna may work well.

That area, if it has an ideal system of radials will make just about any vertical antenna function better. If that radial field isn't installed, the best vertical antenna made may not work worth a darn there.

It amuses me how many people are willing to make their claims and their denouncements about things without taking the whole picture into consideration, including the area the antenna is installed, the methods used to install and maintain it, and its intended uses.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KV9U on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The most important thing to do when testing an antenna's performance is to insure that you have something to compare it to.

It is disconcerting to see the claims from substantial numbers of hams who have erected an antenna in place of their previous antenna and then make claims on the improved performance based on their recollection. This would be very questionable on HF considering the constantly changing conditions we experience.

The differences between two fairly similar antennas may not be that far apart. It is only when you do a number of A/B tests over a period of time, with varying conditions, distances, and directions that you will have enough information.

Also, S meter readings can be very misleading in terms of dB of gain since most rigs are not calibrated. For example, my main rig varies between 2 and 3 dB per S unit, not the 5 or 6 dB that some claim as the standard.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by AA4PB on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
One reason that its important to have at least a basic understanding of accepted antenna theory is that when someone (an individual or a company) makes an unreasonable claim and can't back it up with a reasonable technical explanation you will know to watch out.

It seems like everyone these days is looking for the "magic bullet" (a tiny antenna that fits on an apartment balcony, works 160M thru 10M, and performs like a Yagi on a 65 foot tower), and there are plenty of people who are willing to sell you one if you only believe it.

 
They work for what they are  
by N8NSN on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Someone made the statement,
"show me the data!!!"

I would have to agree here.

Alan, I always respect your writes. However, this particular writing has made several "opinions" made known of but, offers nothing to substantiate any differences in the two products of gain claims. A good poke in the chest to someone that is "wrong" accomplishes nothing if the poke is not followed up with a set of "correct" guidelines to prevent further misrepresentations, in this instance.

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong here.

dbd = decibels of gain over a dipole

dbi = decibels of gain over an isotropic

1) Is an isotropic radiator something that only exists in theory and does not exist in the "real world"?

2) What are the perimeters of the dipole in the reference of dbd? Is that a dipole of resonance at optimal height and in "free space"? (the perfect dipole)

3) If the dipole in dbd references meets the required perimeters to be such; Does that make the dipole the same as the dipole referred to in a dbi statement?

4) I have always noticed that the figures in a dbi statement are somewhat higher that the statement of dbd gain.

Someone please direct EVERYONE to the "truth" in these two terms of dbd vs. dbi.

good points with no followup,

jimmie (KC8BYF)
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by G8UBJ on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Once you have objectively measured your antennas and determined the "one for you" there are then only three things to consider -
1 How high you can position it without appreciable feeder loss
2 How high you can position it without appreciable feeder loss
3 How high you can position it without appreciable feeder loss
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by N3JBH on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
My Palstar DL2K Dummy load must be an awesome antenna.
It has a flat SWR and I would presume it is pretty much a purely resistive 50 ohm’s
Best part is I can and have worked most every thing I have heard on it. :)
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by AA4PB on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The dipole referenced by dBd must be set up with the same parameters as the antenna being measured. On an antenna test range for example, the reference dipole and the antenna under test would be placed at the same location on the same tower.

dBi references an imaginary single point radiator that radiates around a sphere equally in all directions. A dipole has gain (in favored directions) compared to this single point radiator therefore gain numbers look larger when using dBi than they do when using dBd.

There are certain things like gain and front to back ratio that you can measure on a test range BUT the practical performance of any antenna is always very dependent on the installation paramters (height above ground, surrounding objects, local noise levels, etc). That means that practical performance can vary greatly between one person's installation and others.

There are certain general rules that usually apply: A high, clear location will yield better performance (especially for VHF/UHF antennas). Physically larger antennas will have better performance than smaller antennas (more gain, less loss). Be suspicious of claims that ANY small antenna has the performance of a full sized antenna.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WW5AA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Great article as usual Alan,

After moving from a mountain side in California at 4,000 feet and a real Zep antenna for the low bands to a literal hole in the ground, I realized a lot of antenna work was in order. Living on a small lot I started with the usual suspects, G5RV, mystery antenna, loops of all colors, miracle verticals, OCF's, small beams all home brewed. I would leave up the last antenna and compare it to the new one for several months unless it was a real dog. Yup, worked a lot of DX and I could work everything I could hear. Soon I realized however that with low shortened antennas, I wasn't hearing a lot! My first priority was to find a solution too getting the antenna into the air and getting out as much copper as possible (see antenna primer). I retested all the antennas that I built at 40' on a wide area net. Saying nothing about the antenna I was using and never heard a single remark about my signal. Several years ago I stung up my first old fashioned doublet, 177', 450 ohm ladder line and coax balun at 60'. That night I ID'd on the net (75 meters) and was greeted with "Wow, what did you do? You’re booming in today". I was soon relaying weak stations and was asked to be a NCS. Before I bore everyone, get your wire up as high as you can, make it as big as possible. If it's still up in the spring, it wasn't high enough or big enough. (:-)

73 de Lindy
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by W1XZ on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Well said, Alan. Look at the reviews here on eham for antennas. Quite subjective and pretty much useless, all in all. It is however quite hard to do objective analysis of large hf antennas without scaling them down which is doable but still rather hard. Perhaps hitting the books and learning a bit about antennas, ground, and propagation might just be the answer. You don't have to be Bob Shrader just learn enough to speak antenna fluently.
UBJ: Depends on the desired effect...I talk to Northeastern (US) stations on my 75 meter dipole. Do I want that as high as I can get it. What about higher angle HF signals that want to see a lower antenna?
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by K0BG on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Jimmie, no offense meant, but you have pointed out part of the problem.

You see a lot of amateurs compute dBi to dBd, by subtracting some given value, usually 2.3 dB. Well, that isn't the case at all; it may be more, and it may be less.

Adding even more chaff to the subject, real-world dipoles can have several dB of gain over the proverbial "reference" dipole (ground gain, for lack of better words). Unless you have an understanding why this is so, then comparisons can become even more disconnected from reality.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by K3AN on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
What's important is how well YOUR antenna works at YOUR QTH. Can you bust the pileup within a few calls or do you have to wait in line or do you never get through? Do you even hear the DX that's causing the pileup?

If you're not into DXing or contesting, then practically any antenna will work, and your antenna's relative performance doesn't really matter.

 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W1ITT on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I don't believe that many amateurs are in a position to objectively rate an antenna. Few if any can build an antenna in a clear clean area, and erect a standard comparison antenna, such as a half-wave dipole similarly then control reflections on the "range". Perhaps some can do this at UHF and above, but probably not in the MF/HF range bands.
For most of us, the best we can do is erect our new wonder antenna and get, over time, an impression of how long we wait in pileups, or how many times the DX asks us to repeat our call and report. If I can best a few of the other known strong guys in pileups, and do it regularly, my antenna is at least good, and may be better than that of the average bear. But propagation changes, even in the short term, can make that method dangerous, so it must be done over a period of time.
I used to read and wonder at the Gotham antenna ads. "Flash! Switched to 15m and worked..." followed by a long list of exotic calls. To a Novice, it seemed that that 22 foot tall vertical with the coil at the bottom had to have some magic in it. Having spent lots of my employers time and money in the past building and qualifying near- and far-field ranges, I think I know better now.
The best I can do at home is to model an antenna, be cautious about interpreting the results, and put the thing up and see who all I can beat in the pileups. It's a general impression at best, and nothing to take to the bank.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W8JI on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Internet might be getting a bit out of control and hurting what we learn. After the curtain antenna article, I added the warning below to my antenna pages:

http://www.w8ji.com/antennas.htm

I also reworked the curtain antenna page because doing on-line research I found the Internet full of misleading articles on curtains. The articles often get the simple Lazy H antenna, which is just two doublets stacked, wrong!!

http://www.w8ji.com/curtain%20sterba%20USIA%20array.htm


Warning about antenna models!

The dipole is the basic building block of many antennas. A dipole does NOT have 2.2dB gain over an isotropic radiator when the dipole is placed over earth. The dipole has about 8dB gain over an isotropic radiator! Always remember that when you see antenna models over earth given in dBi. If the model over earth shows a "gain" of 8 dBi, the model effectively has the same gain as a dipole.

Here is the pattern of a 145 foot high copper wire dipole over medium real earth on EZNEC.

You can see the gain is 8.5 dBi, and it is a simple dipole just over 1/2 wave high. Any antenna you model should always be compared to a standard like this!

 
Theory gets you close. Practice gets you there.  
by AI2IA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Let's get realistic. There are two basic ways to define a measurement of comparison. They are; objective and subjective."

I disagree.

Let's get really realistic. There are two ways of looking at two or more antennas - theoretical and practical.

I put up and take down my antennas often. Hey, it's fun and good exercise. I measure carefully. I read the books. I run some tests. The best part comes when I have two antennas for the same band in the same location, put one up and use it for a week or so, take it down and use the other one for a week or so. Never mind what I hear or to whom I transmit. Anyone can tell the difference by comparison.

By the way, as you all know, it's not just the antenna, its the transmission line, the matching, the installation, the height, the proximity to objects, the connections themselves, and the tuner or transceiver.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W8JI on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Here's something interesting:

On The Air Testing
One of the only ways to reliably test an HF antenna is a blind A-B comparison against another known good reference antenna. Since I also had a dipole at 100 feet a few hundred feet away from the G5RV (similar height), I had an ideal testing situation.

Blind Test
I checked into various groups on 75 meters and did a blind A B antenna test. I would say "this is antenna one one one, this is antenna two two two" while switching antennas. The results were:

Nearly ALL of the reports indicated NO difference in signals! (58 equal reports)
When a difference in signal was reported, about equally split either the full size dipole or G5RV would win. (7 G5RV better, 9 dipole better)
Announced Tests
I also did tests that called the antennas by name. I would say "This is the the G5RV,G5RV, G5RV. This is the dipole, dipole, dipole". The results were rather revealing.

When I would call each antenna by the correct name, the G5RV was reported "weaker" or with "poorer audio" or some other negative comment more than 80% of the time. The remaining stations reported no difference!
When I would call each antenna by the opposite name, the antenna I was calling the G5RV was still reported in some negative context about 80% of the time. The remaining percentage again reported no real difference.
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by SCUBA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hi KC8BYF,
May I expand a bit on what you posted?

Perhaps the eHam.net staff should consider a more structured evaluation format for antennas. For example,

-- First Impressions Report [subjective narrative]

-- Subjective Report [basis is at least X number of hours of use]

-- Detailed Report, to be derived from quantifiable criteria (such as points you raised), to include how it is installed (height, feedline, watts, etc).

-- Comparative Report, a line by line comparison of findings between the reported antenna and one or more equally installed (same equipment, height, feedline, time of day, conditions) antennas at the same location on the same mast. (derive data from Antenna #1, remove it from the mast, install Antenna #2, derive data).

Additionally, the writer could reveal his/her qualifications to render such a report. For example, I've been using a Ventenna HFPD Dipole which needs to be added to the EHam reviews. I do not consider myself to be anywhere near qualified to render any more than a marginally useful report. If and when I do render such a report, I'll qualify what I write by stating that it's merely a first impression and highly subjective.

I think it's doubtful that the webmaster would take it this far; although just a subjective report and a detailed report might prove more useful than the present reporting format.

73/Jack
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4KC on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You know, the only real antenna comparison most of us can accomplish is, "Does the latest one work as well as the last 'latest' one?"

And "work as well" is necessarily rife with subjectivism. Even a dog antenna may work better under given conditions.

I know that doesn't help if you are trying to pick something expensive out of a catalog. But it does encourage experimenting. It can be disappointing when you spend weeks (and some blood, sweat, tears...and dollars) cobbling together and erecting some new hunk of aluminum or maze of wire and nobody hears you.

Still, if the thing manages to add a few S-units to your signal and you start getting DX on the tenth call instead of not at all, then the self-satisfaction of making it work is worth the sacrifice...even if you can't really quantify it! The fact is, most of us know in our heart-of-hearts if one antenna in the backyard performs better than another.

Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com
www.n4kc.blogspot.com
(A blog dedicated to rapid technological change and
its effect on life, society and ham radio)


 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W6GF on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
My measurement is very simple. If it did not fall down in the biggest storm, the antenna system was not big enough.

George, W6GF
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K6AER on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
In addition to what Alan, Tom and several others have said many of the manufactures just don’t understand antenna gain and I might add a large portion of the ham population has a problem with the subject as well.

I was at Dayton a couple years ago and a popular manufacture of a two element wire beam promptly announced his antenna had 12 dB of gain. I ask how and the owner said he compared his antenna to a dipole and it was 2 units better than the dipole. He went on to say everyone knows a standard S unit is 6 dB.

I ask where the reference signal was coming from and how high were the antennas. He said the dipole was at 30 feet and the beam was at 50 feet. The signals were off the air. I then ask where were the signals on the receiver S meter and he said the readings went from S1 to S3.

Here is the problem:

• Antennas at different heights have different gains. Gain references for comparisons should be in free space only. Even on very high towers at an antenna range the HF readings are always suspect.

• Antennas at different heights have different angles of arrival for peak signals. If you signal is a high angle of arrival it might favor a dipole over a four element beam with a compressed E-Plane (vertical) pattern.

• S meters on radios are terribly inaccurate. In radios I have tested a typical S unit at the bottom of the S meter scale is between S1 and S3 are from 1 to 3 dB.

• Also on any typical day the band will have at least 6-10 dB of QSB (fading). Depending on your attention span your selected readings with bias can be very optimistic.

The general statement that the antenna is great because I work all this DX is junk science at best. Mike Stall of M2 worked over 60 countries on a 100 watt light bulb at the peak of the last sun spot cycle just to show hams that any antenna can work DX when the conditions are right.

This reminds me of the saying, “even a blind squirrel can find an acorn once and awhile.”

One comparison I do take notice in is when the band gets poor, listen to what antennas the last of the stations are using. Now I know they have large towers and are running big amplifiers but if they can’t hear the DX they can’t work the stations.
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by WA8MEA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
WA3LWR:
I just ordered a Taktenna based on all the excellent reports on Eham.
-----------------------------------------------------
That's your first mistake.

First, many people are enticed into making positive reviews about certain products with promises of free equipment or discounts by certain company(s).

Secondly, you have to ask yourself, if a reviewer claims "the product was so easy to put together a twelve year old can do it"....and then in the same breath claim that "their technical support was excellent"....you have to wonder why the oxymoron? If the antenna was so easy to install and operate, why the hell did they need any technical support? That should be a HUGE tip off that these reviews are being scripted by the "little helpers" of certain companies.

Third, many "friends" of particlcuar companies are encouraged to go make bad reviews against a competing product on eHam.

Fouth, many reviews are edited or deleted by eHam.

I had someone e-mail me the other day....completely frustrated with his TAK-Tenna. (He used the term "suckered" in his subject line.) He also knew that if he spent valuable time writing a negative review about the antenna on eHam, it would be edited or deleted as we've seen here in the recent past.

So he wrote to me. He said he would GIVE AWAY his brand new TAK-Tenna to anyone willing to simply pay for the shipping.

I would be happy to pass along any takers via my e-mail address below.

73, Bill - WA8MEA
tinytenna@hotmail.com
http://HamRadioFun.com
 
RE: suckered  
by KU2US on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with most of the posts on this thread. Antenna science is quite complicated based on many different situations. I also got suckered into getting the Tak-Tenna (my fault only). I read all of the hype. I did an A/B comparsion, which is the only thing I could do at the time. I compared it to my ground mounted 6BTV Verticle. The same signal on my vert. which was +/-S7, I could not even hear on the Tak-Tenna!! which was up about 30 ft. on a mast with rotator. The vert. had 100 ft. of rg-8 and the Tak had about 25 ft of same feedline. Both were clear of obstructions and SWR below 2:1... The Tak was a 20m monobander. Ham radio IS a learning $$$ experience.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by NA6DF on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,
Bravo! I have always thought the same thing. Good to hear it from another clear thinking, logical human that is capable of reason.

NA6DF
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by G0OTT on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Its always a good idea to have more than 1 aerial!
Propagation is always my favourite reflector!
Experiment and build/buy different types, I'm sure you'll find one you like.
Most of all have fun and enjoy.
Regards Darren g0ott
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K1CJS on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Only one other thing bothers me, and that is that there are some ham radio hobbiests who insist on making this hobby into something it is not.

A HOBBY is supposed to be about relaxation and enjoyment and in the case of ham radio, experimentation, yet these people insist on turning it into an exacting scientific endeavor AND lambasting anybody who does not see it their way.

So, it follows that if you either design and build, or purchase, an antenna, put it up, use it, and get your enjoyment out of it, who really cares about finding out exactly how good it is over another. The guy that enjoys what he has without worrying about the minutiae wins every time over the guy that must have it exactly as specified and measured to enjoy it.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K4JSR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Keep the faith, fellow hams...

I am still working on my high power, infinite gain, Hi-Q wide bandwidth, omni directional(even more than an isotropic source) antenna based on a beer can pop-top tab. When completed all will be right with the world!

Trust me! I'll cheat ya right!

73,

Cal K4JSR c/o The Famous Forget-Me-Not Rest QTH and
Old Phart's Farm East Jabip, Georgia
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K0BG on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hey Cal? I spent a whole week there one night.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by NI0C on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"And the biggest misconception? The number of DX contacts made with said antenna. Excuse me, with the aforementioned in mind, how can the number of stations worked, DX or otherwise, constitute a comparative measurement?"

This sounds like a straw man argument, Alan. Almost everybody likes to brag about the DX contacts they make with whatever antenna they are using. Such claims are rarely made in a comparative sense. Indeed, as others have pointed out, few hams have the luxury of space for two HF antennas for the same band.

Nonetheless, the DX claims can be useful. For example, if someone tells me they obtained their 80m WAZ with a particular antenna, you can bet that my ears will perk up and I'll want to know more about their antenna.

73,
Chuck NI0C
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KC8ZEV on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
A controlled environment, Electrical engineers, big money test and measurement equipment all are found at a true research and development area for antennas. With that said, homebrew and hobbyist antenna develop is one of the fun aspects of Amateur radio. Every home QTH is a different environment from the next guy's. The same antenna is not the same antenna if it is in a different environment. Go with what works!!! The proof is in the QSO!!! Gain this, db that........it doesn't much matter if it performs poorly. A more expensive antenna doesn't always translate into a better antenna. It depends on the environment it is in. Salt water coastline, high altitude, woodland, desert plains, metropolitan high rise, mountainside, island, etc...........the point being is choose the proper antenna for a particular environment. There is no such thing as a high performance universal antenna that can work every band and every DX entity. Quote me comparisons, A & B, gain, db, blah, blah blah.

Data may look good, but the proof is in the QSO!!!

73
KC8ZEV

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W1ITT on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To Chris, K1CJS
I'd like to respectfully disagree with you. A hobby, and especially Amateur Radio is what one wishes to make of it. Some guys do moonbounce and wonder about Marsbounce, others load up a chaise lounge (kind of a neat trick) and try to work a couple states, and others are happy to ragchew on repeaters. It's a continuum, and we can each pick our place on the path. If you just want to hang a dipole off the apple tree and call it good, then that's fine, but others get their fulfillment by taking it further. I won't live long enough to try all the things I want to, but I'll probably try to take my network analyzer with me to see what I can load up on the other side. I may need some clip leads too. I'm not sure if they use type N connectors....
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K3GAU on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI,

I have a question for you. You state that a dipole can have up to 8 dB gain over an isotropic source when a dipole is placed over ground. Well, yes and no! If you took the isotropic source and place it at the exact same spot the dipole had been wouldn't it have the same ground gain as the dipole and thus have 6 dB gain when compared to itself in free space? So that basically there is only A 2+dB difference between an isotropic source and a dipole under SIMILAR conditions?

Dave K3GAU
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W8JI on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Dave,

By definition it cannot be an isotropic source when it is placed over ground. It cannot radiate in all directions equally.

This is one reason why people get confused when they look at modeling programs. They think all they need to do is subtract 2 point some dB from the dBi gain to get the dBd gain, but that isn't true at all because dBi by definition must be measured where the source can radiate in every direction.

The only option is to mount the real antenna in what for all purposes is freespace, or to compare it to a dipole or some other known standard reference at the same height.

73 Tom

 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N6EY on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan --

Those who get it, already get it. Most here miss the point entirely. Excellent points made - I'm afraid they fall largely on deaf ears.

73,

Jason N6EY
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W7ETA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hi OT
Thanks for another great article, especially for new and newish hams.
Your prose is easy to read and understand.
Thankfully, you didn't try and write a tome covering every tangent to the main concept you highlighted.
May your days be many and the QRN/QRM few.
73
Bob
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N6AJR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Well, Lets see now.....

I have several antennas up for several different bands. For example I have a hustler 5btv, a gap voyager and a 3 ele steppir that all work on 20 m.

which is best?

Well lets see now....

For point to point contats, and generic contesting I like to use the 3 ele steppir. It does a couple of things, it points most of my signal in one direction, it blocks noise from the sides and to some extent the back of the antenna, and it has the apparent effect of gain in the desired direction.

BUT...

Some times I use the hustler 5btv on 20 m because I am working several friends locally and they are all over the map from me so a "poor" verticle really lets me work folks at different compass points with out moving an antenna. Throw in a VOX for phone and I can rag chew all night with out moving a finger.

But....



The voyager also does 20 m but I hardly ever use it as it transmits fair and recieves even worse on 20. It is great on 40. 80, and 160 but not so good on 20.



I have also had up a MA5B and a 4 element tribander and find the Steppir is usually better than those were. But I did like the MA5B because it was instant switching when checking out the bands and made for some really quick "jumps" to work folks in a contest, no tuning needed, for the other bands.

All in all the steppir is best most of the time on its bands but it is not always the best in every case.


So each antenna has its strong points, and weak points. It sorta depends on what you are doing with it too. I am still waiting for the city to approve my request for a tower in the yard, and that will open up several new antenna choices for me.

One problem I have with the Steppir is in a contest if I am running power.

I will point the steppir ay 70 degrees and work the east coast, usually with a KW or so. Some times I get a large bunch of these "ESP" contacts coming back to me. Usually they are folks runn 100 watts into a dipole. They can hear my beam and power pretty good, but I can bearly hear them coming back. In this case I will drop my power to 600 or 800 watts, so those guys can not hear me and I get less of the ESP contacts, which will actually improve my rate and score.


Well , lets see now...

Go figure, the antenna was too good.


So to say an antenna is good is a leap of faith. If the A is 26 and the K is 5 and the SFI is 63, and you can work any where in the country, you got a great antenna system.


If there are a hundred sun spots and you can only work domestic calls, your antennas suck.

So each antenna has to be evaluated on its own merits, and against a known standard, or just say " this works better than my dipole at 50 feet....."


YMMV

Now go put up a fan dipole and work some DX


The other Tom
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N6AJR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Well, Lets see now.....

I have several antennas up for several different bands. For example I have a hustler 5btv, a gap voyager and a 3 ele steppir that all work on 20 m.

which is best?

Well lets see now....

For point to point contats, and generic contesting I like to use the 3 ele steppir. It does a couple of things, it points most of my signal in one direction, it blocks noise from the sides and to some extent the back of the antenna, and it has the apparent effect of gain in the desired direction.

BUT...

Some times I use the hustler 5btv on 20 m because I am working several friends locally and they are all over the map from me so a "poor" verticle really lets me work folks at different compass points with out moving an antenna. Throw in a VOX for phone and I can rag chew all night with out moving a finger.

But....



The voyager also does 20 m but I hardly ever use it as it transmits fair and recieves even worse on 20. It is great on 40. 80, and 160 but not so good on 20.



I have also had up a MA5B and a 4 element tribander and find the Steppir is usually better than those were. But I did like the MA5B because it was instant switching when checking out the bands and made for some really quick "jumps" to work folks in a contest, no tuning needed, for the other bands.

All in all the steppir is best most of the time on its bands but it is not always the best in every case.


So each antenna has its strong points, and weak points. It sorta depends on what you are doing with it too. I am still waiting for the city to approve my request for a tower in the yard, and that will open up several new antenna choices for me.

One problem I have with the Steppir is in a contest if I am running power.

I will point the steppir ay 70 degrees and work the east coast, usually with a KW or so. Some times I get a large bunch of these "ESP" contacts coming back to me. Usually they are folks runn 100 watts into a dipole. They can hear my beam and power pretty good, but I can bearly hear them coming back. In this case I will drop my power to 600 or 800 watts, so those guys can not hear me and I get less of the ESP contacts, which will actually improve my rate and score.


Well , lets see now...

Go figure, the antenna was too good.


So to say an antenna is good is a leap of faith. If the A is 26 and the K is 5 and the SFI is 63, and you can work any where in the country, you got a great antenna system.


If there are a hundred sun spots and you can only work domestic calls, your antennas suck.

So each antenna has to be evaluated on its own merits, and against a known standard, or just say " this works better than my dipole at 50 feet....."


YMMV

Now go put up a fan dipole and work some DX


The other Tom
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by 5R8GQ on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N6AJR Said:
"Some times I get a large bunch of these "ESP" contacts coming back to me."

Can someone please enlighten me as to the
definition of this acronym?

tns ex 73, Ken
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"I don't believe that many amateurs are in a position to objectively rate an antenna. Few if any can build an antenna in a clear clean area, and erect a standard comparison antenna, such as a half-wave dipole similarly then control reflections on the "range". Perhaps some can do this at UHF and above, but probably not in the MF/HF range bands."

Why not *at least* measure some properties of what you've got, in situ, and see how it holds up?

At least try.

There are tools. You can do antenna pattern measurements using G4HFQ's Polar Plot, you just need a sound card and a radio where you can shut off the AGC and tweak the RF gain to a good value:

http://www.g4hfq.co.uk/

Sometimes weird things happen. Here's a plot of my 6m Moxon rotated 360 degrees while N3DB gives me a CW keydown:

http://n3ox.net/files/6m_Moxon_Plot.pdf

F/B is good, better than 20dB, but there's a big "bite" out of the pattern, something is distorting it. (I think it was my other 6m antenna).

Here's a pattern on my flag antenna on a steady AM broadcast signal at 1500kHz:

http://n3ox.net/projects/flag/flagpattern_lg.JPG

Now I can actually *SAY* something about how the antenna works. I can't guarantee all its properties, but for a receiving antenna like a flag, the pattern shape is really the key. I can show people the picture and say, "well, this is how I built my flag and here, look at an actual result on the performance."

Again, sometimes there are odd problems:

http://n3ox.net/projects/flag/160pattern_lg.jpg

That's actually on 160m looking in a different direction. I think I fixed that problem but I don't have a plot handy; I have to go stick a portable "pinger" transmitter out in a field and run the pattern.

I've used PolarPlot for gain comparisons as well. I point directly at some beacon, and switch back and forth between the antennas and compare the level.

The trick with that program is getting a stable signal source, and of course, that means a *local* source, and you're then measuring at low takeoff angles. So there are limitations, but it's *some hard data* and it's relatively easy to get.

On skywave, a step attenuator and many, many repeated trials back and forth between two antennas in rapid succession can be used to get a reasonable estimate of the gain. You can use WWV to test 30m antennas and broadcast stations to test 40m antennas. Yes, you get fading, but if you observe for a long time and switch back and forth quickly, you can at least get within a few dB. Some antennas won't yield a difference, but then you can say "I tried to compare them with a step attenuator over a long time, and I could never definitively tell a difference"

- - - - - - -

Empiricism in ham radio doesn't have to be about antenna-range-grade measurements. Differences on the order of a couple dB don't matter much to a majority of hams out there, and those who find that it matters already figured out that they won't be able to base their station building decisions on things like antenna reviews.

Where this matters is for the guy trying to decide among a full size half wave dipole vs. a Buddipole vs. a Tak-Tenna vs. a hamstick dipole, at relative gains of 0dB, -3dB , -10dB and -20dB on some band.

It matters in the difference between the gain of a $20 mobile whip and the gain of a good screwdriver antenna.

It matters when the manufacturer of some fancy new $500 mini-beam on a 0.07 wavelength boom on the lowest band claims something like "up to 4.5dBd gain and up to 20dB F/B" knowing full well the thing is basically a dipole on 20m but quotes the gain for 10m and the 15m F/B peak at 21305.4kHz to make the thing seem fantastic.

It matters when someone claims to create electromagnetic radiation in a way that "cannot be described by Maxwell's equations or modeled by any current modeling software." Nearly all antennas that make pseudoscientific claims of properties turn out to OBVIOUSLY lose to a dipole in a fair fight.

- - - - - -

I personally think any antenna that equals or exceeds -20dB with respect to a 1/2 wave dipole 1/4 wave up will get good reviews from people who have no comparison antennas. You still radiate 1W + dipole equivalent from a hundred watt rig, and as the backpack QRP community can attest, 1W to a half wave dipole makes for a *lot* of ham radio fun.

If you had a tiny scrap of real information before you bought your compromise antenna, something like:, antenna X is 20dB down from a dipole and antenna Y is 11dB down from a dipole according to some little measurement even *one ham* made, that is useful data if they show some evidence of a controlled, reasonable experiment.

And when it comes to *homebrew* antennas, people like to build 'em and tell you what DX stations they worked, and so you should go spend 13 hours stringing a particular spiderweb in the backyard to do the same. If they'd told you their 13 hour wire mess came in about equal to their dipole, you might spend your time more wisely.

- - - - - -

You shouldn't base your decision among three reputable tribanders for your contest stacks based on three different guys' backyard measurements, but that's not the situation we're actually in.

There's likely more than a factor of 100 range in efficiency of 5/5 eHam rated antennas on the market now. That should be enough to make people want to compare some antennas even on a less-than-ideal antenna range ;-)


73,
Dan
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WB2WIK on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Nice writeup, Alan.

Gain can be a misleading metric unless you can place the gain where it will do the most good, as you alluded.

Great example: I have a 6 dBd omnidirectional gain antenna at at repeater site up high on a mountaintop. It doesn't work any better than a 0 dBd omnidirectional antenna, and in fact often works worse. The difference is the way it's fed and its radiation pattern: The 6 dBd Stationmaster produces all that gain at a very low angle, just above the horizon, where it makes the repeater very strong if you're on another mountaintop 100 miles away. But it doesn't cover where the users are, which is mostly thousands of feet below the antenna: There's no gain there, and almost no signal there.

Meanwhile, the 0 dBd antenna radiates its signal in a broader lobe focused on the horizon, with substantial radiation below the horizon, down where the users are. It can provide 20 dB better coverage down in those valleys, and that's where it's needed. Guess which antenna stayed up at the site?

There are thousands of similar examples.

When I judge an antenna, I only judge it two ways: Directly compared with another antenna on the same frequency at the same location at the same time, or by comparative reports given by distant stations comparing my signal with that of my neighbors who live very close by to me, also on the same frequency, at the same time.

Having no frame for comparison, any report is just another report.

However, the good part of all this is that ham radio is supposed to be fun, and if you're having it, you're doing what needs to be done! I've had a ball running the FT-817 at 2.5W into a whip antenna while camping. It's a terrible setup, just awful. But when I make a contact, I feel good and can say, "Yep, that was fun."

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"A HOBBY is supposed to be about relaxation and enjoyment and in the case of ham radio, experimentation, yet these people insist on turning it into an exacting scientific endeavor AND lambasting anybody who does not see it their way. "

Chris, I think you misunderstand some of our objections.

I think people who just put up antennas and use them for fun can do so without measuring a single thing, ever.

It's people who publish designs, write articles, make recommendations and write antenna reviews who should be more critical.

If you go on a pursuit of better performance, but follow the average advice on some popular ham antenna homebrew webpages and in ham website antenna reviews, you very well may end up wasting a phenomenal amount of time and money on a mediocre station.

People "design" homebrew "beams" using "novel techniques" and they end up with "good gain and it has some F/B", but they don't actually quote numbers, even in S-units, for either of those things.

People give 5/5 reviews to -20dBi antennas.

The only thing a 5/5 review of a 1% efficient home station antenna tells you is that HAM RADIO IS AWESOME.

;-)

Wasting a bunch of time and effort on "improvements" that don't improve anything at all is a path to frustration. I've seen it in discussions on eHam, where someone spends a thousand bucks on several different wonder-antennas to beat their CC&R restrictions and never really end up satisfied and making contacts. What they really should do is ignore the internet, ignore the reviews, and do something like buy an autotuner and some #26 copper clad steel wire, and put up some random hunk 'o' junk longer than a 1/4 wave fed against a few radials, because it'll work better.

You can try whatever you want, and if you like it, that's great, but if you're going to tell someone else to do the same thing you did, you should have some snippet of an objective reason to suggest that, or at least be honest about the total lack of solid comparison.

- - - - - -

Maybe I can sum up the difference like this:

It's perfectly OK to say "I found this new 43' vertical fed with RG-213 and a tuner over 32 radials to be about 2 S-units better into Europe on 80m than my old 5BTV over 16 radials, but I don't really know my S-meter calibration"

It's not really OK to post a 5/5 eHam review claiming that your new 43 foot vertical is 2 S-units * 6dB = 12dB better than a 5BTV.

The first is an honest objective assessment using simple equipment, and reflects the fact that you like your new antenna and it's working better. The second is totally misleading and might induce someone to spend $400 for no net gain, or even a loss, because of factors that have absolutely nothing at all to do with the parts of the system you get when you buy the "antenna" under review.


73,
Dan


 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W7ETA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You are in a DX net; you can barely hear the DX; the DX is giving everyone the same report; the net op summons your forth with your last two; you give the DX op the same report everyone else gives him; a 3X5 and wait; the net op says over; you work your plan--"was that a 3X5?". The net op proclaims "Good Contact!"

You just made an ESP Q.

73
Bob
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Can someone please enlighten me as to the
definition of this acronym? "

ESP = Extra Sensory Perception... like, if you had a sixth sense you could actually copy guys that weak, but all you really hear are ghostly whispers of signals.

 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna hot air?  
by AI2IA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Everlasting hot air!

Ham radio is supposed to be fun. FUN!

You get yourself an antenna book or two, or more.

You gather the parts, the tools, whatever, even if it is an out-of-the-box antenna. You put it up. You try it. If you like it, you keep it for awhile. Otherwise, you take it down. You move it. You put it up. You try it. You make or buy another antenna. You do the same. You satisfy yourself in your own head as to how well it works. Use any method you like. You play with antennas! It's okay. You're supposed to play with them. It's a hobby. Don't take it too seriously. Don't even try to believe all the hot air you read. It could drive you nuts. Have an ugly antenna? Have a cheap antenna? Have a big Wonka antenna? Eh! Better a day spent in the sunshine fooling with antennas than hours spent indoors reading antenna threads of great enlightenment.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"However, the good part of all this is that ham radio is supposed to be fun, and if you're having it, you're doing what needs to be done!"

Absolutely. But if you attributed that particular fun primarily to the crappy whip antenna, it would be kind of like giving the fork and knife credit for how great your steak tastes.


Dan





 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna hot air?  
by N3OX on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Everlasting hot air! "

Please list callsigns of hot-air producers so I know whether or not to take issue.

" You satisfy yourself in your own head as to how well it works. Use any method you like."

That sounds to me like excellent advice to a point. In no way do I expect that every ham go through a totally data-driven station engineering process just to get on the air.

We just need to be careful of going around dropping too many 5/5 reviews and dispensing too much "antenna wisdom" to the new guys if you can't make *any* objective statements that interface with external reality ;-)

In terms of homebrewers, this is not about 1dB perfection and exacting measurements. It's more about just applying a critical eye to your claims of how your antenna works.

The thing that I think is most damaging is the guys who first tell you that their antenna works really well without presenting any data, and then come up with an explanation that's basically smart-sounding nonsense. If they'd spend 20 minutes setting up a signal generator out at 200 feet and spinning their "wonder-beam" design around, though, they'd just find out it only has 3dB F/B and well, isn't a very good beam.

73,
Dan






 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WX4O on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Another thing that matters is: how big is your lot and how much money do you have for antennas. My yard is 65' by 140' with my house in the middle. It's also located in a 'neighborhood valley', not good for propagating my signal. I use a multiband dipole (Cobra Jr.) and a 5BTV with 16 radials, ground mounted. Eventually I'll buy a tower, but for now I rate my antenna(s) perfect. They work OK, and they are paid for. That 'subjective' opinion is mine, based on my ability not to afford something better. 'Nuff said.
 
How Do You Rate Your Participation with antennas?  
by AI2IA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Please list callsigns of hot-air producers so I know whether or not to take issue."

I think everyone sees my point! There is absolutely no list of hot air producers with which to take issue!

Everyone's antenna is his baby, his little child. If you have more than one, then they are your children. You do with them whatever you like (as long as it is not immoral, illegal, or fattening).

The one small caveat is that it is unethical to feed a lot of bull about your antena(s) to your fellow hams. Try to be honest about them, that's all. Don't take them too seriously. Antennas shoud be fun. You can't beat fun!
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N0EGS on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
59 gud luck in the contest!not bad for a dummy load at 50 feet Hi!Hi!
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K1CJS on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Norman, W1ITT--

Thats just the point. A person does as he wants to, if he wants to go further, all the more power to them. But just because some do not want to is no reason to call them down and chastise them just because they didn't do it the proper, scientific way.

73!
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WB2WIK on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>How Do You Rate Your Antenna? Reply
by WX4O on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Another thing that matters is: how big is your lot and how much money do you have for antennas. My yard is 65' by 140' with my house in the middle. It's also located in a 'neighborhood valley', not good for propagating my signal. I use a multiband dipole (Cobra Jr.) and a 5BTV with 16 radials, ground mounted. Eventually I'll buy a tower, but for now I rate my antenna(s) perfect. They work OK, and they are paid for.<

::I can relate to that. I have an XYL and four daughters, three of whom drive and the fourth is about to. So, we have four cars already and one on the way. When anyone asks me about any of the cars, I always say, "You know, the best thing about this car is it's paid for!"

Good for a laugh, but also a reality.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K1CJS on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Dan, N3OX said--

"Chris, I think you misunderstand some of our objections.

I think people who just put up antennas and use them for fun can do so without measuring a single thing, ever.

It's people who publish designs, write articles, make recommendations and write antenna reviews who should be more critical......"

I understand that Dan. But I think it is a fact that those particular people are a small percentage of the total number of hams out there. When I look at reviews and other writings here, I see precision measurements only from a few people, not everybody.

You must admit there is a difference between someone who said 'I got an xxxxxxx antenna and it outpreformed the other antenna I had' and 'I got xxxxxxx antenna and it did better than xx db over the other xxxxxxx antenna I have when I checked it on my xxxx meter/analyzer......'

My point is this--Too many here call down a person making a simple statement made on this forum and say back it up with measurements. The average ham probably just cares about getting an antenna up, tuning it fairly close and using it rather than trying to squeeze and extra half db out of it by going thru extreme measures. If they say that on here, all too often they are called down because their measurement methods don't meet with somebody elses approval.

73!
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by DIPOLE on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Truth? What is truth? -- Pilate
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna hot air?  
by K1CJS on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Ray, AI2IA said:

"Everlasting hot air!

Ham radio is supposed to be fun. FUN! ....."

Exactly my beef, Ray. You understand it--thats what I'm getting at.
 
RE: They work for what they are  
by N6AJR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
yup, th4e ESP contacts are those that would normally get a 122 sig report. You know the ones you have repeat their call 10 times and finally copy it and then say 599 tu.. ESP is Extra Sensory Perception. or like working a PSK 31 signal that does not even show up on the waterfall..:)

I don't need no stinkin dipole!!
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"My point is this--Too many here call down a person making a simple statement made on this forum and say back it up with measurements"

Chris, what I worry about is the publication of totally subjective recommendations of bad antennas on high-traffic ham radio sites. eHam is on the front page of Google search results for *ham radio* without quotes. Some (not all) of the stuff on a different site that's the fourth Google result for *ham radio antennas*, is a total waste of time to build, except possibly for rhetorical reasons.

There's a subclass of "experimental" antenna "designs" out there that have absolutely nothing to recommend them over any other hunk of random wire fed by ladderline and tuner, and there's another subclass that are actually about 10dB worse than something else that could fit in the same space and would take about a quarter of the time to build, but those that recommend them are convinced they have some special properties.

It's not really fair to pick on the *people who write* eHam articles. They're not really the problem. The problem is *publication* of misleading or useless information into an environment that is somewhere where budding antenna homebrewers are trying to learn. I'm not really saying strictly "back it up with measurements," I'm more saying, "it would be better for you to say nothing than to inadvertently say something false by talking about an antenna you haven't actually assessed."

And yeah, I could could write my own articles with some measurements and comparison of those measurements to models instead of sniping certain points in the comments. I have a few in mind, but it turns out that a well written article with real data, figures, and pictures is actually a pretty time consuming thing in a way that tossing off a list of DX contacts one made on one's hamstick dipole isn't. It sounds like a sad excuse, after all, I comment all over here and have probably written several articles worth of comments this year, but mostly that requires me to reason off the cuff, run a few minutes of EZNEC, and I'm a pretty fast typist. Excuses... excuses...

I'm actually not a fan of this particular article right here, no offense meant to Alan... but what I'd like to see is more solid *examples* of where objectivity strongly departs from subjectivity backed up with some real consequences. Alan does mention W8JI's G5RV tests, which I think are mandatory reading for everyone who's ever thrashed around on either side of an epic, stupid G5RV argument.

It's stuff like that that makes for interesting antenna reading.

Alan's website is great reading. W8JI's site is great reading. Cebik's site is great reading. Vague opinion pieces on antennas, one way or another, I'm not so sure I like that. There are a lot of, I dunno, hard-hitting pieces that could be written.

So now that I've said that, I think I'll check out permanently from this one... I should write an article or shut up.

73,
Dan







 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K9CTB on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Nice article, Alan ... thanks for posting.

To answer the question, I can't rate my antennas. If I could, I'd rate them as "suck". Almost all of my station antennas, regardless of location, have been simple dipoles. Only on one occasion, did I have a modest tower and TH3JR at one point and a - hold your breath - an HF5B! (I say that because they are a BEAR to tune properly). Even with the tower and tri-bander,
I saw that other hams were doing better than I according to their log books ... Not always an indicator of antenna performance, but watt-for-watt, and given the same amount of operating time, I'd look at antennas first ... especially mine!

As you said, I've heard "if I can hear them I can work them" more times than I can count. I have no trouble admitting that I have NEVER been in that situation. I often wondered what it would be like to dial up the DX window at will, and work whoever shows up. It must be nice. Actually, I've thought about what it would be like to work from Newington (W1AW) on field day just to see if *they* can work everyone they hear!

I have learned a whole bunch about antennas since coming to eham, and lot of stuff you said here is repeated elsewhere. As my head Pastor says, if it's repeated, it's important. So when I read an article and it has something I haven't tried highlighted, I might try to experiment. Even if I bad-mouth a piece here or there, my hat is off to you folks who offer these ideas. Thanks again.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by PHINEAS on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
If you hook it up to a radio, you can make contacts with it, and it does not blow up your radio, then it is a good antenna. In the end, that is all that REALLY matters! One antenna being better than another is VERY subjective!!!

I am not bashing this find article, just expressing my point of view.

K0KMA
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4JTE on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, this got complicated in a hurry, if the question as stated is how to really evaluate an antenna, than get on the band of choice with your latest experiment, leave the old one in place, hire yourself out as an NCS, be it the maritime mobile net or Omiss, or century club or any other consistant widely spaced geographic group and talk to 30 or 100 stations that you are familiar with from months/years of being on the the air and communicating with, get yourself a little A-B antenna switch as opposed to "modeling" your antenna and you will find out pretty quickly if your idea works. Another idea, if your so inclined, is to just Listen to what's on your receiver and evaluate over time the differances. Bottom line if your looking to improve performance you gotta compare real time to what your changing. As far as "evaluating" your antenna, it's pretty simple, does it work better than the other one ?
Bob

 
RE: They work for what they are  
by WA4DOU on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Back in the late '60's/early '70's time frame, the auto manufacturers began playing games with the horsepower ratings of certain models in order to "hide" the truth from the insurance industry. They would understate the horsepower by deliberately dropping down the curve and stating the horsepower at a lower engine speed RPM, rather than the peak. They weren't lying, just not telling the whole truth. While the insurance industry had no way of knowing what was going on, at least until it became common knowledge, the drag racing sanctioning bodies weren't fooled. They knew that it took X amount of horsepower to propel a vehicle of X weight thru the finish line from a standing start at X speed, in a certain amount of time. They had knowledge and they applied it to the matters at hand.
Antenna principles have been well known for a long time to those that care to make themselves knowledgable, yet some antenna manufacturers have continued to make preposterous gain claims right into modern times. This tendency is slowly dying as knowledge of the truth is becoming more widespread and truthful manufacturers have fought against the lie. The outrageous claims were easier to sell to the uninformed or misinformed thanks to the confusion over the dipole reference standard. By failing to state where the dipole was located, in free space or in the real world near earth, it was possible to use that ambiguity to advantage.
A certain antenna manufacturer made both monoband and triband trapped yagis. Their 3 element monobanders were typically rated at 5-5.7 dbd and you could tell that their reference standard was the real world dipole. The claims were realistic and believable. However, when it came to their triband trapped yagis, the claim was typically 8 dbd, a totally unrealistic and unbelievable claim if their reference standard was that same real world dipole. However, if the standard was the free space dipole, then the claim was believable because it meant that the yagi actually had about 2 dbd average gain over the real world dipole and the other 6 db gain was really the ground reflection gain. The claim was bogus, meant to mislead because the reference standard wasn't clearly defined. That manufacturer wasn't telling outright lies, they were just telling partial truths, aided by ill informed consumers. All ambiguity in antenna gain claims are slowly disappearing as the truth prevails. The gain standard is slowly becoming accepted, expressed in dbi. This is a good thing.
It is also good that some feel compelled to take issue with falsehood wherever it is found, whether involving antennas or any other facet of human existence. Truth should always prevail over falsehood and misinformation, for "what fellowship does light have with darkness?" Those that prefer to remain in the dark may always choose to turn away where it suits them. Amateur radio is a technical avocation, not Romper Room.
A certain "untenna" costs about $125. For that price one could purchase current copies of The Radio Amateurs Handbook and ARRL Antenna Book and have more than enough money left over to construct a real antenna that performs and still suits a clandestine environment.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K4JSR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan said, "Hey Cal? I spent a whole week there one night."

Actually it isn't too bad. We get to "Rock Around The Clock!" ;-D

By the way, thanks for all of the help you have given the ham fraternity. You, Tom and Steve have helped bunches of folks with their ham related problems.

I am going to stop here or KA4KOE will want me to say
something nice about him. We don't want him to get a
bigger head than on those green beers they serve in Savannah on St. Patrick's Day!! :-@

73, Cal K4JSR
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K4JSR on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
By the way, Alan, could you and Tom discuss decimal
antennas? Some of us never quite caught on to fractals in elementary school.

KA4KOE keeps trying to confuse me on binary logic.
He keeps telling me that a BOO LEAN expression is what a skinny ghost says on Halloween!
I guess I should advise him to see an XOR cist!

73 and ROCK ON!!
Cal K4JSR
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KA5ROW on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
One way to fix the Dbi / Dbd problem would be to have a standard by law. All measurements should be made from say a 50 or 70 ft free standing tower with nothing else up. All measurements should be in reference to a dipole.
It doesn't matter how gain Is measured as long as everyone use the same reference point.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WA6WTF on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I would agree with N6EY. The laws of physics will always prevail over hype. Those that don't understand this concept will surely receive many invitations to play poker.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W7ETA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Antennas already follow the laws of physics.

What is needed is buyer knowledge.

73
Bob
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K5YF on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the article Alan!

In an attempt to boil down some other comments/posts in this thread I submit the following...

1)There is no "one antenna for all situations."

2)There is no appeals process for the laws of physics. (not even in New Jersey, Florida, or California)

3)(Greatly Simplified)When it comes to electromagnetic radiation reception or transmission, there is no substitute for aperture. (see #2)

4)No antenna can overcome propagation, it can only take advantage of whatever propagation exists. (see #2)

------------------------------------
On a personal note I often here many stations that cannot hear me call them, and I much prefer it that way. If everyone that I can hear could also hear me, I would question my antenna system and my receiver.

-Brandon
-N5JYK
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KY6R on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Its a multi-dimensional problem to solve - which is why a silly piece of wire or a set of aluminum can be so much fun to experiment with.

Over the last 7 years, I took a "tour" through the ARRL Antenna Book, Lowband DX-ing book, W8JI's web site, LB Cebik's web site, and N6LF's web site.

Armed with a Palstar and MFJ Antenna Analyzer, EZNec, wire and aluminum, I built phased vertical arrays (both wire and aluminum), yagi's (wire and aluminum), and basically anything that would fit on my tower or in my trees.

I have never taken published or modeled gain figures too seriously - except in the "relative" sense. I have learned, given the space I have to erect antennas - what works best and what doesn't. I almost always had a reference half wave dipole up 1/2 wave to do comparisons. But I also understood that propagation was a variable. For example, on a day with high angle noise from a solar flare - I have had days where a simple short hatted vertical dipole worked and my 3 element yagi was nothing but noise. The band, time of day, and time of year / place in the SS cycle all are variables as well. Talk about a multi-dimensional situation!

I learned a few basic things that seem most important (at least in my effort to attain DXCC Honor Roll):

1) Signal to noise ratio might be the most important thing as far as weak signal DX-ing is concerned

2) Directivity and F/B ratio seem to be second to S/N ratio

3) Gain seems to be third in order of importance

And I haven't even thought about man made noise - since I've been able to eliminate most of what I have ever experienced.

The three together is the goal - and in a small lot, its a challenge to attain, but very possible, and easily done on a small budget.

4) Radials for any vertical - and 60 (or more) ground mounted always made a huge difference for me.

5) There are some simple antennas that have always worked best for me (K1WA array, Bruce Array and Phased Vertical arrays which are switchable between broad side and end fire). These are the antennas that have compared almost exactly with a reference 2 element yagi - and on all bands that I use, and have been very consistent during all phases of the SS cycle and time of year. Having both vertical and horizontal arrays has been the best combo for me.

6) The band and propagation characteristics - when taken into consideration when selecting and building an antenna are as important as anything else

So, in the end, most of what I have learned seems anecdotal - but when I first started out, I did take lots of measurements and used EZNec religiously. But I have never had a "serious" piece of test equipment. I even used a Palstar antenna analyzer and dummy load to properly phase 2 verticals using the Christman method - and that was just about the best experience I have ever had.

The only thing I could never figure out (but can only guess) is why my half square and bobtail curtain antennas never seemed to have as dramatic edge over a half wave dipole up a half wave. My only guess is that I believed that they didn't need radials (which the Lowband DX book refutes, and I understand why). I tried voltage and current feeds, and measured everything, but they were never much better than a reference half wave dipole up 1/2 wl.

The phased arrays - where I had tuned the feeders and switched between them were ALWAYS dramatically better than the 1/2 wl dipole up 1/2 wl.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by BHARDIMON on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Lose all of the exclamation points.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K0WA on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Nice article Alan. Interesting comments.

I approach all antennas with quite a bit of subjectivity and a healthy dose of skepticism. Plus, you have to weigh in the laws of physics and nature. No use hiding your head in the sand.

For instance...40 meter inverted Vee and a 40 meter vertical with 32 radials. Which is better? Dunno. I run both antennas on CW, RTTY, and Phone contest (not that the mode matters) and have generated more than a thousand contacts on 40 meters with these two antennas. Sometimes the Vee "seems" better, but then again the vertical works fine. Then, the next hour is will change and higher QSO rates appear on the vertical and not the Vee. Is the increase due to the antenna, propagation change, that last cup of coffee, or did more people come onto 40 meters? Dunno. It is subjective. The antennas work...I make contacts...I have fun...but I do not win. Rats!

What gripes me about antennas is that you can build them so cheaply, but manufactures sell them very high. I have less that 20 dollars in a 40 meter vertical and I see them being sold commercially for $250 to $600. Come on! Building is getting to be a lost art...and antennas are easy to build.

I guess the marketing costs are high.

Good article. Show me the data but don't lie to me with the data. Tell me the theoretical and then tell me the practical.

I rate my antennas as adequate!

Lee - K0WA
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4ZAW on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I am in the process of building another antenna as I type this... I have been werking on it and USING it as much possible for a few weeks now. The reason I am still werking on it, even tho I check into my favorite nets each week, is due to the fact that NO antenna is perfect -- Some of the commercially-available examples are simply not worth the axing price, while others are simply HORRID performers.
I'll probably just keep perfecting it until I'm content enough with it ,to actually PLACE it a few feet of the ground as opposed to a ground-mounted testbed. After that point, I wont want to pull it down,nor drag my 56-year-old-n-overweight frame back up there to tweek it anymore.
My point is this; When I see an article posted about my favorite aspect of the hobby (antennas), I read it. I did not learn very much new from the original post, but the knowledgable replies (for the most part) TO it taught me VOLUMES I did not know!

(If you would like to see my progress to-date on this test bed antenna I am foolin-with, just click on my homepage.)

No disrespect to the originator,(express,or implied) regardless of how much/little I learned from the the article tho. After all, it spurred lots of thought on antenna THEORY,as well as antenna FACT from many bright people. I'm just a spounge for this stuff. A GOOD ARTICLE! Keep 'em comming... I'll keep "reading it up"!

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K4BNC on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Lets not forget how important location is to an antenna. If you are rare enough DX you will gain 20 dB of antenna gain.

Another subjective factor is does the antenna do what it was intended to. I have a very low, shortened dipole for 80M. I don't have an objective comparison means but I have no doubt this would not stack up well against a full size antenna at a reasonable height. However, compared against no antenna, it certainly does a better job. It allows me to make contacts for the relatively near states to complete the Sweep in SS. So for me this does the job. Does this make it a good antenna?
John
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KG6WLS on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You know, it's been awhile since we've seen a post from the great antenna guru Vito/W6TH. He's usually one to chime in and set us straight. I hope he's doing ok. I haven't heard him on the bands either. Anyone here from him?

73
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KG6WLS on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
BTW, nice article as always, Alan.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KE4ZHN on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Well, not all of us have access to an antenna test range. We must deal with real world conditions which in most cases is far from ideal. Guys like Tom W8JI are fortunate enough to have a nice piece of land and a huge antenna farm. But many like myself are stuck with a small residential lot with lousy surroundings to put up towers or good antennas so I have to make due with a simple doublet 35 ft up between two trees. Is this a world beater? Hardly...but I make plenty of contacts on it, I can work my fair share of DX with it and it allows me to use all the HF bands. So in my own case, I rate this a good antenna for my circumstances. Your mileage may vary.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N9FE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I rate my antenna's with the salt lake smeter receive site. Works every time and it don't lie. You can check your audio too.. :}
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W4VR on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
When I model horizontally polarized HF antenna systems I always compare the results with a 1/2-wave dipole at the same height. Many hams don't bother..."hey I'm getting 9 dBi from this beam"...little do they know that the beam is only a dB or two better than a dipole at the same height above ground.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by PLANKEYE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think antenna's are one of the coolest things about this hobby. They make us think, they make us work to get them up, and they get us on the air.

The article is confrontational to begin with. For Goodness sake!!

Why does everyone seem so surprised when folks argue so much on this Site?

You folks are ATTRACTING it.

JUST LOOK!!

One post after another.

I know everything.

no, I know everything.

But wait, I knew everything, way before you knew everything.

I was at a Christina Agularia or whatever concert and I know EVERYTHING you know and some of what I don't even know. But I stil know it.

It's silly!!



PLANKEYE









 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N9IAG on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Gain
Bandwidth
SWR
F/B ratio
power handeling
GROUNDING.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WB2WIK on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna? Reply
by N9FE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I rate my antenna's with the salt lake smeter receive site. Works every time and it don't lie. You can check your audio too.. :}<

::Interesting comment. I've used that many times (and others as well), this one is here:

http://www.smeter.net/slc/slc.php

However, it doesn't tell me which antenna is better. It tells me which antenna produces a stronger signal at that particular site. Most of the time, my *WORST* antenna produces the strongest signal in Salt Lake City, because I'm only about 800 miles from Salt Lake City and this is a high-angle shot. If I optimized antennas based on that report, I'd have a horrible signal in Europe and Asia, and probably no signal in Africa.

I'd want to optimize antennas (usually) for best report from, say, the Indian Ocean region. The antenna that produces the best signal there will be very weak in Salt Lake City.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W5WSS on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Tom is exactly correct! Height is a major player even when two identical antennas are compared. The high antenna will concentrate rf into lower trajectories or toa. making it more compatible more of the time to low toa's required for a specific farther away sky wave dx path whereas the low antenna will concentrate the rf into higher toa's closer to the zenith 90 degrees toa (straight up)for close in sky wave so often times hams do not take these simple basics into account when they are doing instant a/b testing.the differences are dramatic. a pair of well designed doublets one for low toa and one for nvis work is a very effective solution.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W5WSS on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
wb2wik/6 hello...we agree too!
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by PLANKEYE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I LOVE YOU STEVE!!

PLANKEYE
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by VE3WGO on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
If your antenna has an odd impedance. then just match it to the transmission line impedance (which should be the same as the transmitter impedance) at the antenna , or if not possible, then at least match it to the transmitter output impedance at the transmitter. Then, if there are no resistive losses of any significance (due to losses in the ground or surrounding buildings or foliage), the antenna will do a good job of radiating. Get it as high as possible, and in the clear, and enjoy it. On the low bands, (160m - 40m) where the noise level is often a problem, your own listening ability and comfort usually outweigh any other data that an antenna designer might claim, so try a vertical and if the noise level bothers you, try a dipole as high as you can get it. The key to enjoying long hours in front of the radio whether late into the wee hours of the morning or on a weekend afternoon, is that you need to be comfortable with what you have to listen to, in order to hear potential contacts.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4UED on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
THIS ARTICAL IS TRUE WHEN IT COMES TO CQ OR QST REVIEWING A PRODUCT OF ANY KIND.
JUST READ THE REVIEW ON THE PORTABLE ANTENNAS.
YOU WOULD THINK YOU SHOULD TAKE THE TOWER DOWN.
EVERY TRANSCEIVER THAT IS REVIEWED IS JUST EXCELLENT SAYS CQ AND QST.
WHEN I BUY A RIG I READ WHAT REAL HAMS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT HERE AT E-HAM.
IF YOU READ CQ AND QST EVERYTHING IS GREAT.
CHUCK, N4UED
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4UED on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
IF YOU READ ABOUT ANTENNAS THAT ARE REVIEWED IN CQ OR QST YOU WILL BE FOOLED.
ITS SEEMS THEY RATE EVERYTHING THEY ARE GIVEN AS GREAT.
IF YOU WHAT THE TRUTH FROM REAL HAMS READ ABOUT HERE.
HEY DONT FORGET THE RIGS THEY REVIEW.
HOW MANY HAVE THEY EVER GIVEN A BAD REVIEW?
CHUCK,N4UED
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by PLANKEYE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Yeah Chuck, hit her again!!

This time put some STANK ON IT!!



PLANKEYE
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N9FE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Steve: globaltuners.com Will help you for what your doing. But my little simple set-up i don't do alot of DX'ing. So having salt lake at 1500 miles or so does help me for 80-160. :}
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N0AH on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Foo-Bar!!!!!!!

I rate antenna by building it the best way it can be with what I have. Now if I could have just remembered this when setting my rotar.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by AB7E on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To N4UED:

I don't dispute what you say about the gentle treatment given in QST and CQ reviews, but c'mon ... the reviews here on eHam are the worst of the lot, especially for antennas. Hams routinely give 5's and gushing praise to anything that has a usable SWR, and even many that don't, when a simple dipole or vertical would be 10 db louder and 10 db cheaper. Rigs get rave reviews when published comparison tests show terrible performance, especially on receive. Many of the eHam reviews come from first time buyers who have never owned a similar item and are able to offer no credible standard of comparison whatsoever. Anyone who buys anything based upon the bulk of eHam reviews for that item might as well be trying to find their way blindfolded through a dark forest by following the end of a stick they're holding in their own hand.

Think I'm exaggerating? Pick five of the very worst performing products you've ever owned or ever heard of and then check the eHam reviews for those items. I'd be hugely surprised if any of them show an average rating much less than 3.5 or so.

And by the way, the Caps-Lock key is on the left side of your keyboard.
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K4ELO on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I would agree when you speak about comparisons between antennas. But comparisons are one thing and working dx is another.

A lot of folks seem to knock someone who thinks they have a good antenna because they work a lot of dx with it.
And say that is a meaningless measure of performance.

Phooey!

So, what better singular measurement is there?
What are you using the antenna for? To measure it's numbers?
The numbers don't always give you a good indication of performance.
As a BSEE, I don't give a rip about the numbers, if you can work dx with an antenna, IT WORKS. Is there something else that is more important?

Some folks may like to gloat over their measured numbers, but I'll take dx contacts over numbers any day.

73,
Wayne
K4ELO
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by PLANKEYE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!


AB7E

How does this keyboard thing work agani?//

Cap locks are eherew?

Oh by the way!

NICE POST!!

plankeye




 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K5WLR on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Can you hear me now?"

"Yes? Good!"

'nuff said!

Will Rogers
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W4LGH on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
All of my antennas work great!

And...

I stayed @ a Holiday Inn Express last night!

73

de

W4LGH

Alan

http://www.w4lgh.com
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K1CJS on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
By K4ELO:
"......A lot of folks seem to knock someone who thinks they have a good antenna because they work a lot of dx with it. And say that is a meaningless measure of performance.

Phooey!

So, what better singular measurement is there? What are you using the antenna for? To measure it's numbers? The numbers don't always give you a good indication of performance. As a BSEE, I don't give a rip about the numbers, if you can work dx with an antenna, IT WORKS. Is there something else that is more important?

Some folks may like to gloat over their measured numbers, but I'll take dx contacts over numbers any day......"

Bravo, Wayne. Just what I've been trying to get across here.

Some of the 'professors' on this board have to realize that it isn't a bad thing to say "I've used this and it works well for me." As a matter of fact, I'll be willing to bet their so called 'exact numbers' are off because they don't have the ideal testing setup either!

Perfectionists have there place--in trade magazines or in scientific publications, but the person who says the numbers are required on internet sites like this don't realize that the majority of people on here aren't looking for perfection--just subjective reports on the antennas being discussed.

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Some folks may like to gloat over their measured numbers, but I'll take dx contacts over numbers any day......"

Bravo, Wayne. Just what I've been trying to get across here. "

OK. Here's my problem with this.

People routinely work DXCC using QRP 5W. People more rarely work 300 countries QRP, but it can be done. It takes a lot of dedication and is a big accomplishment because you can say "I just ran 5W and look at what I did."

But for the casual DXer, with limited time, just wanting to have some fun after work and the weekends and racking up a nice total, QRP may not be the best choice. The extra 13dB of going to 100W really helps you get through the pileups. 100W and a simple antenna can mean a lot of DX fun.

But then if you go and build some crappy design that has -13dB gain with respect to a dipole and claims a list of DX worked, you're back to running QRP but without the bragging rights. You'll *absolutely* "make DX contacts," just like the originator of the antenna did, I have no doubt of that, but you'll inadvertently have the challenge of running QRP.

I worked LA7THA on **160m** using FIVE WATTS into my estimated -6dBi vertical (which is probably worse than that). That's a whopping 1.25W ERP *at most*. I doubt very much that I'd enjoy DXing on 160m if I was pumping 100W into my antenna and radiating 1W or 5W. It's very hard, most of the time when I call someone with 1.25W ERP on 160m, they CQ in my face.

I'm not trying to get K4ELO or K1CJS to start making antenna-range quality gain measurements for their websites.

I'm more trying to reach the frustrated ham who's running a piece of crap antenna that someone else recommended to them, claiming it has 4dB gain over a dipole when it really has 10dB loss.

I want frustrated hams to take a look at the source of their antenna plans and say "oh, that guy didn't measure anything, maybe I should check this sucker out and see if it's really as good as he said"

And honestly, even if they're not frustrated, I doubt many people would be unhappy or neutral toward a 10dB increase in their signal strength. They'd probably have a BALL, even if they were having fun before.

That's why I encourage people to compare antennas.

73,
Dan





 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
One last thing... remember that there are people who absolutely have to make do with extreme compromise antennas, who can't get on ham radio at all if they don't use a tiny, inefficient antenna in the attic or strapped to their balcony railing, and even if they optimized their system, they might still be down a fair bit. They might be forced into QRP for RFI reasons...

The more people who try to radiate the best signal they can, the better off ham radio is for people who legitimately just can't do better than 15W into -10dBd or whatever.

"Working DX" on a given path involves a certain minimum *total* station capability ... yeah, you can put up some untested, "experimental" design from some website that clocks in at -10dBd and work a hundred Europeans with dipoles and 20 JA's with high tribanders , make DXCC, and have a lot of fun, but you're not necessarily able to work any DX guys with apartment antennas.

It doesn't mean it's not fun for you, but if ham radio decays into a hundred thousand hams with junk antennas "working DX" by getting A DXCC comprised of contacts with 100 kilowatt and 100' high beam stations, the hobby is going to suffer.

Again, I'm not trying to mandate that anyone do anything, that would be stupid, you don't have to listen to me.

I'm just suggesting that a critical eye toward your antenna system, and careful consideration of recommendations to others is a good for the hobby.

73,
Dan



 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by AB7E on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I see that N3OX beat me to it, but I have to agree with him 100%. K1CJS and K4ELO are missing the point. It isn't that everyone needs to run comparison tests on their antenna or know exactly what its gain and pattern figures are, but ham radio is served very badly by ill-informed people recommending bad antennas to others simply because they were able to make some contacts with it. I could be wrong, but I'd bet that 98% of hams looking for ideas for an antenna that would fit their financial and space constraints would prefer to apply their effort toward one that didn't penalize them 2 or 3 S-units. Masking such disparities by encouraging purely anecdotal ratings merely clutters things for those who would prefer to know what they're doing.

"It works for me" is a really, really lame assessment for anyone else to base a decision upon. I'm sure lots of people who drove a Trabant were satisfied with it ... right up until the point they found out that a Volkswagen was a far better car.

Why should anyone get upset about manufacturers making unsupported and technically invalid claims about their antennas if folks like K1CJS and K4ELO think that its fine for everyone else to do so? The time and effort to build one is just as valuable as the money spent to buy one.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W5WSS on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The good thing is that we are able to share our thoughts and advance forward. A subjective perspective for sure. I suppose that the ratio of wrong vs correct information is suspect everywhere we look. I often times get submerged in technical antenna theory, but really my motive is to improve my dx success. Necessity is the mother of invention and I have adapted to my environement with respect to my antenna limitations and as a result I have learned alot, especially since most of my time as a ham was spent using a home made log-yagi at a high height. I loved it, yet I was limiting my understanding of how other antennas respond to skywave etc. I evaluate any antenna over time and compared to the standard dipole at reasonably the same height. While I do it, I have alot of fun working other hams.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K3GAU on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI,

A follow up question to your definition of an isotropic radiator. If a dipole is a dipole whether it is over ground or not, then, if you take an isotropic radiator and place it over a reflector (ground in this case) what do you call it? Does it have any special characteristics?

Dave-K3GAU

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by WB2WIK on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Dave, in case Tom doesn't return, you can't do what you propose because the isotropic radiator is a theoretical model only and doesn't physically exist.

As soon as you place this nonexistent item over a ground plane, it changes in definition to an item that can physically exist and thus is no longer isotropic.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by PLANKEYE on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Dave, in case Steve doesn't answer another question that wasn't asked of him.

Dave, in case Ray Mullins doesn't show up with his case of sunshine in tow. "he owes me breakfast by the way".

Dave, in case you need to know anything, I mean anything at all. These guys will tell you, you don't really need to ASK!!


___


Keep up the good work guys!!





PLANKEYE

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by K1CJS on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
AB7E and N3OX,

I can see your points, and I'll go as far as saying that your arguments make sense--IF someone were to just go, look at a few recommendations and then buy/get/make an antenna selection based solely on that. Anybody who does so while wanting the best antenna for their situation they can get--but who want it 'yesterday', deserves what they get.

I've got a random wire up right now, it's better than the vertical I had up, half whip and half loading coil--which was about as good as the Isotrons I traded for and just got rid of. I'm still experimenting and researching--I find it part of the fun of this hobby--and a valuable learning experience.

Someone who just wants to buy an antenna, put it up and use it without doing the research and the "finding out about it" phase deserve what they get--frustration. All too much people want 'instant gratification', and those who help them aren't really doing anyone a service. Those who seek to define what an ideal antenna is without knowing the specifics of an installation are, whether they realize it or not, not helping that problem--and they may be hurting it even more than helping it.

Now, before you say I don't know what I'm talking about, I posted on an elmer question regarding compromise antennas in general and the Isotron antenna in particular--because I was using one--and promptly had my backside handed to me by some of the 'professors' here. All I was saying was the same thing I'm saying here:

If you're using an antenna either because its the only one you can fit--or afford--at present and its working for you--there is no need for other people to call down your opinions and comments because that antenna 'defies accepted antenna theory', 'goes against scientific proof' --or simply because they may think that because its different it isn't good.

I'm not trying to start a battle, nor am I trying to call down the experienced users here, I'm just trying to keep an open mind--and I ask others to do the same. I'll just back out of this discussion now, with a 73 and good luck to the experimenters out there. And I mean those who like to find out for themselves while listening to people who've been there before, but don't want to be told the only thing they can fit or afford isn't good because 'the numbers' don't say so.

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N7YA on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I do not know everything, so i have to keep learning...and i also can take solace in what i DO know.

I do know my inverted V works, i make DX contacts with it. Im sure there are some things i can do to make it work a LITTLE better, but its as good as i need it to be. I really do have other things to do, i play when i can.

73...Adam, N7YA
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4UED on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
YES THE CAPS KEY IS THEIR.
I CAN SEE BETTER WHEN TYPING IN CAPS.
ID RATHER HAVE A REVIEW FROM A NORMAL HAM THAT USES THE RADIO AND THEN GIVES HIS REVIEW.
I DONT CARE IF HE JUST MADE HIS FIRST CONTACT.
CQ AND QST THAT I READ,ALWAYS GIVE IT A 10.
MOST HERE MAY NOY HAVE ROOM FOR A DIPOLE SO THEY USE A PORTABLE OR AN ATTIC COMPROMISE ANTENNA AND LOVE THE CONTACTS THEIR MAKING.
KEEP READING RAVE REVIEWS AND SPEND THE DOLLARS.
ILL STICK TO E-HAM AND QRZ AS WELL AS OTHER REVIEWS I SEARCH UP ON THE WEB.
CHUCK, N4UED
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4UED on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
OK MY DOUBLE EXTENDED ZEPP BEATS MY 3/8 WAVE INVERTED L ON MOST BANDS.
IM THROUGH WITH MY COMPARISONS.
MAN THAT WAS THOUGH.
I BUILD THEM AND THEY WORK.
I DONT HAVE TO HAVE YOUR PHD,POST HOLE DIGGERS.
JUST A SIMPLE SOUTHERN ANTENNA BUILDER.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by KC8NBG on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
good stuff Alan
Antenna building is fun if you have at least a basic understanding of theory, and if you don't it can still be fun, for years as an swl I built different hf. wire designs and a&b compared the s-meter readings not an exact science but still fun. When the first computer modeling programs were brought out I thought that fun was over. I could never have been more wrong about anything. Keep building bigger and buying better as you keep the competition level high and makes our hobby stronger. 73 Stan
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W9OY on September 13, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Rate my antenna?

its got a good beat, easy to dance to, I'd give it about a 73

W9OY
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W5ROY on September 13, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan; Did you stir the pot this time. I build a lot of antennas, and some work, and some do not. I like rag chewing, and if they hear me we talk, and if they don't hear me well, we try another time. Do the best with what you have , and be happy, I do. 73, and I keep my fire extinguisher near by when reading these posts. 73 de W5ROY Roy in Clovis,NM.
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N3OX on September 15, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"OK MY DOUBLE EXTENDED ZEPP BEATS MY 3/8 WAVE INVERTED L ON MOST BANDS.
IM THROUGH WITH MY COMPARISONS. "

But it seems like you did a comparison. It sounds to me like you cared about which antenna was actually stronger.

A lot of people who say an antenna is good don't check it at all against another type.

Those people don't care about their signal.

Dan
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W5WSS on September 18, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Ok here it is.....My doublet exhibits alot of superiority with respect to my wooden fence now that is how PT Barnum would have liked it!
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by N4UED on September 19, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I AM SOLD ON THE DOUBLE EXTENDED ZEPPS THAT I MAKE.

THEY PERFORM GREAT ON THE BAND THEY ARE CUT FOR, ALONG WITH THE HIGHER ONES.

LADDERLINE AND A PROPER BALUN MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE.

LOOK INTO THE CENTERFED DOUBLE EXTENDED ZEPP.

CHUCK N4UED
 
How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W4UDX on September 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It's hard to say. I have a KLM KT-34A and a G5RV. Seems to work OK QRP. But if all this discussion was on the HF spectrum instead of a website, I would be able to get on-air comments about it's performance..... Yes I am guilty too...

 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W5WSS on September 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I like center fed double extended zepps...any center fed doublet that is long enough is a center fed double extended zepp somewhere. Use good open wire balanced feedline even home brew is good because the losses are minimized use a current 1:1 balun and a short coaxial run to go to a tuner near the rig and voila a multi band doublet that is a double extended zepp to a 1/3 wave doublet somewhere
 
RE: How Do You Rate Your Antenna?  
by W5WSS on September 23, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I like center fed double extended zepps...any center fed doublet that is long enough is a center fed double extended zepp somewhere. Use good open wire balanced feedline even home brew is good because the losses are minimized use a current 1:1 balun and a short coaxial run to go to a tuner near the rig and voila a multi band doublet that is a double extended zepp to a 1/3 wave doublet somewhere
 
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