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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Army MARS Challenged by Gustav

Bill Sexton (N1IN) on September 6, 2008
View comments about this article!

NETCOM's Ham Radio Operators Tackle Gustav

Ft Huachuca—Hurricane Gustav didn't just pose a critical final exam for the crisis managers of FEMA and levee builders in the Corps of Engineers. To the volunteer radio operators in Army MARS, too, it was the first real flexing under fire of new communications muscle developed after Hurricane Katrina.

And the system worked.

--At several evacuation centers in Mississippi and Louisiana and National Guard refueling points in Texas, a handful of deployment teams from the Army Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) provided backup voice and digital communications as Gustav raged past.

--The Army MARS e-mail over HF radio system—WinLink—networked emergency operations centers across the affected zone. The Transportation Security Administration and Southern Baptist Disaster Relief were key partners on the country-wide WinLink net.

--Augmented net schedules kept communications open throughout the region until Gustav blew itself out at midweek. MARS stations countrywide had monitored for any emergency transmission. The Army MARS gateway station at Ft Huachuca, AAA9USA, which is manned by contract personnel, served as central coordinating point.

--Throughout the emergency, some 850 Army MARS volunteers in FEMA regions four and six were on standby to relay critical message traffic from their home stations, a goodly number of them ready to respond with portable Emergency Communications rigs if needed. Fellow hams from the Air Force and Navy-Marine Corps branches of MARS shared net operations during the emergency in a carefully-prepared demonstration of interoperability.

“This kind of turnout wasn't really anything new,” said Stuart S. Carter, the retired Air Force lieutenant colonel who is the Army MARS Chief. “MARS has been working hurricanes since the 1920s.

“What was new is the carefully tailored, almost seamless fit between our operators and the agencies we support,” he said. “That's what was missing when Hurricane Katrina happened.”

Gustav was no Katrina, Carter went on, “but it exercised just about every aspect of disaster response.

“I was particularly impressed by the meticulous preparation from Army MARS region leadership, through Army MARS state leadership on down, and by the really remarkable skills shown by the deployment teams out there on their own,” he said. “I think `awesome' truly applies to their performance.”

This is written before any final conclusions and statistics could be gathered on stations activated and messages handled. Nevertheless the experience was already being put to work in the preparing for Tropical Storm Hannah and as operations orders were being drawn up for Ike.

Army MARS capacity for deployment had been put to the test, now it would be staying power.

Geography more or less thrust the mantle of tactical leadership on Jim Hamilton, (AAA9RD/K4QDF), of Orlando, FL, the director of Army MARS Region Four which covers the southeast from North Carolina to Mississippi. He's a retired U.S. Army aviator and commercial airline pilot, now a Florida civil servant.

Hamilton's partner in organizing operations is Army MARS Region Six Director Ken Winkler (KA5ARU/AAA6RD)of Tomball TX, whose coastal territory runs from Louisiana to the Mexico border. Together they coordinated with Navy-Marine Corps and Air Force MARS region leadership in sorting out frequency assignments and net operation times.

One evidence of interoperability, or what Chief Carter calls jointness: Region 4's Emergency Response Team 1, four members led by former region director Paul Drothler (WO4U/AAV4DJ from Rossville TN, staged to Alexandria LA in neighboring Region 6 supporting the Southern Baptist Disaster Relief evacuee operation.

Region 6 meanwhile dispatched four teams with Texas National Guard units that set up refueling stations for the fleets of buses carrying evacuees to inland Texas points (that was a Katrina lesson learned.) A fifth team operated within the state mobile command center at Bryan, outside the Texas capital of Austin.

There was jointness, too, with the regular ham radio community. Cliff Segar KD4GT, a member of the Amateur Radio Emergency Service, joined Drothler's team 1 headed for Alexandria.

In an extraordinary demonstration of WinLink's versatility, Segar's MARS membership application was transmitted on the run by mobile radio to Ft Huachuca, AZ. Army MARS administrator Martha Smith AAA9M promptly WinLinked back his training call letters AAR4IB/T. “He is gaining skills by the minute,” Team 1 responded. “He will likely have most of his basic training done by the time he gets home.”

(Segar's home, by the way, overlooks I-40 near Rockwood TN and is widely known for hosting a big billboard that proclaims: “Amateur Radio Works. www.emergency-radio.org.”)

After a long day of severe storms and heavy rain en route, Paul Drothler's Team 1 carried off another deployment feat on arrival in Alexandria. He reported in to Operations Chief Hays at Ft Huachuca via a phone patch established by Pat Lane AAA9EC in Memphis.

Since the inception of MARS in radio's early days, its mission has been preparing and providing backup communication for military and civil agencies when natural or manmade calamity knocks out normal channels. Licensed radio amateurs provide their time and equipment at no cost to government. The Defense Department oversees their rigorous training and allocates special military frequencies.

Army MARS, a unit of the Army's Network Enterprise Technology Command/9th SC (A) at Ft Huachuca, counts some 2,800 members currently. The other two branches swell the total membership to roughly 5,000 amateurs spread across the country, available virtually anywhere if needed. Active-duty service members are eligible, too, and a number operate these days from Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Europe and the Pacific.

From the Korean War to Desert Storm MARS was mostly known for the tens of thousands of free “MARSgrams” and phone patches it provided between service members in combat and their families back home. E-mail and cell phones are ascendant now, but the free MARSgram service is still available at www.mymars.org.

Two things are new to the MARS of 2008. One is the belated awareness among newly-reorganized federal agencies just how well-prepared Army MARS was to assist them. Chief Carter's determined public awareness campaign took care of that after he volunteered for the MARS command in late 2006. The other is the WinLink digital messaging system, which makes short-wave radio communication as accessible as conventional e-mail.

WinLink, a non-commercial software application developed by hams, came to MARS three years ago under the leadership of MARS Operations Chief Grant Hays (WB6OTS/AAA9O) and Steve Waterman (K4CJX/AAA9AC), one of the developers and now Army MARS automation coordinator on the Chief's special staff.

Early on the Transportation Security Administration turned to the Army MARS system for backing up communications at major airports. And when Hurricane Dolly blustered toward shore last month, key airports in Florida, Georgia and Alabama had WinLink stations up and running with operators trained by Army MARS. Other emergency agencies are in the process of following TSA's lead.

Another lesson put to good use was region director Hamilton's decision spinning off actual command of net operations. He delegated that responsibility to Georgia state director Larry Lowe AAA4GA and his crew of experienced net controllers. That freed Hamilton and the region 4 staff to concentrate on overall coordination and long-range planning. The latter was quickly becoming urgent as tropical storm activity ballooned in mid-week, with Florida a likely target. Again.

In sprawling, storm-prone Region 6—Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico—Texas state director Dave Martin (AAA6TX/K5YFO) answered the call from the Texas Military Forces to support the pre-landfall evacuation effort, then oversaw the unified MARS response as Gustav's dying gasps drenched northern Louisiana, Louisiana and Arkansas .

At Ft Polk in western Louisiana two MARS trainees—the father-son team of Robert (AAR6DP-T / WB5JZP) and Terry (AAR6DQ-T / W5MTP) Partigianoni--deployed to the Bayne-Jones Army Community Hospital which was expected to be in the hurricane's eye. A third Partigianoni, Robert's wife Joan (AAR6DO-T / KA2BRS), took over the permanently-installed MARS station in the Ft Polk Joint Readiness Training Center HQ, AAR6UAB.

The Partigianonis at the hospital established two stations, one inside handy to the hospital EOC with VHF Telpac connectivity, the other outside in an RV complete with HF antennas, emergency power and access to the WinLink system as well as MARS HF nets. Their innovative intranet getup processed 27 messages in addition to linking the hospital with the Vernon Parish (county) EOC.

At the JRTC HQ EOC, Joan reported processing 15 messages. “The command was very pleased with the operation and said to pass on their thanks,” she said. “MARS net controls did an excellent job on the nets to keep traffic rolling smoothly.”

Robert Partigianoni said the outside station easily weathered 50 mph gusts at Gustav's height but did lose commercial power at one point. Fortunately, a late course change sent the storm's center to the east.

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by WA1RNE on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

"Throughout the emergency, some 850 Army MARS volunteers in FEMA regions four and six were on standby to relay critical message traffic from their home stations, a goodly number of them ready to respond with portable Emergency Communications rigs if needed."


"Early on the Transportation Security Administration turned to the Army MARS system for backing up communications at major airports."


"And when Hurricane Dolly blustered toward shore last month, key airports in Florida, Georgia and Alabama had WinLink stations up and running with operators trained by Army MARS. Other emergency agencies are in the process of following TSA's lead."



>>> This is a great plug for amateur radio and we know "amateur radio works", etc., but the article seems to missing some pertinent details, such as:


> What types of "critical message traffic" were being handled?

> Which airports were being backed-up?

> What types of communications was ARMY MARS providing in their role as back-up?


Army MARS and WinLink backing up communications for the TSA and any major airports doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.


....and just an observation about the end of the article:



"The Partigianonis at the hospital established two stations, one inside handy to the hospital EOC with VHF Telpac connectivity, the other outside in an RV complete with HF antennas, emergency power and access to the WinLink system as well as MARS HF nets. Their innovative intranet getup processed 27 messages in addition to linking the hospital with the Vernon Parish (county) EOC."

"At the JRTC HQ EOC, Joan reported processing 15 messages. “The command was very pleased with the operation and said to pass on their thanks,” she said. “MARS net controls did an excellent job on the nets to keep traffic rolling smoothly."

--->>> Robert Partigianoni said the outside station easily weathered 50 mph gusts at Gustav's height --- >> but did lose commercial power at one point. Fortunately, a late course change sent the storm's center to the east. "


>>> The first paragraph says the RV was equipped with emergency power. So why did the station go down when the mains went off line? More importantly, why are these guys set up in an RV in the midst of a storm with the potential for damaging winds? Saying they were fortunate might be considered an understatement, as they could have lost a heck of a lot more than emergency power.....Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.


>>> WA1RNE
 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by K1CJS on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Not second guessing--but this is more of a 'news' item than an article. However you want to paint it, it is good that the new protocols worked!
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by K0BG on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not a naysayer, but based solely on the text, it would appear as another fed-sponsored, poorly implemented program.

The idea of emergency communications, is a lot more than just preplanning, having a go-set, a few portable antennas, etc. It also requires a well-planned implementation of said equipment. Far too often, this is the part that fails miserably. Thankfully this time, no one lost their life as a result.

Based on this, I wasn't surprised to see on CNN, a report showing the New Orleans police communications van parked along side one of the levees with waves crashing 8 to 12 inches over its top. Begs the question what would have happened to the van had the levee failed?

The bottom line is, you don't put your most valuable resources in the line of fire.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by N6JSX on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
As a get-ready to get-ready - it looks like HAMdom was their, again.

Little of any significant traffic was passed (nor can it) so the FEMA PR machine can add the MARS numbers into their report to impress ignorant America.

Cellphone comm's never went down, Gov't radios never went down, SAT comm's were never disrupted. So what is the real MARS mission especially with HIPAA privacy laws virtually blocking any critical traffic over the open air ways without some special encryption systems that MARS HAMs will not have/afford?
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by WMCO on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Just another *WIN LINK* is great article that is shoved down everyones throat. If it would not be for that little snippet this article would never have made it onto e-ham. Fact is, Gustav was a flop there was nothing to it and nothing to do for hams and all the positive PR means nothing once the big one hit. Kathrina was big but not the real big one..it is still to come. Look to Asia and the devestation that is common there and ask yourself, when will one of these hit the US. Gustav has proven only that communications work...when there is no emergency. But we all knew that anyways now didn't we.

J.C.
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by KE4XJ on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To all the naysayers:

Please note from the article above:
" 'Gustav was no Katrina', Carter went on, 'but it exercised just about every aspect of disaster response.' "

The key point is that the parts fit together well. Gustav was, in effect, an exercise with a substantially good outcome. Since human beings are imperfect, there will always be room for improvement. But the effort was a very good first approximation. Bravo!

More severe emergencies will stress the "system" more and will turn up more problems that will need to be addressed, it is true. But Gustav was much more than a SET and much less than a disaster that Katrina was. What better way to get sharper?
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by KI4BUN on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Actually, a significant amount of traffic was passed, both to the JOC and SOC.

My 2 man MARS team was able to errect 3 antennas and get our station on the air within 30 minutes of arrival on-site.

The only comms ability the command staff had at our location was cell phone and local tactical comms. They had no internet and therefore no ability to recieve weather info maps and specific Hurricane forcast reports.

We provided weather dispatches form the National Hurricane Center as well as weather faxes to the command staff in addition to passing sitreps, support requests, EEI reports and other traffic to the JOC via winlink.

We were the command staff's only email capability until an Air Force ISIS unit arrived to provide sat-link internet access...more than 24 hours after our sation had been on the air.

Within 24 hours, the AF ISIS team was re-deployed to another location, once again making our station the only source for maps and e-mail dispatches other than voice over cell phone.

We passed numerous pieces of traffic via winlink, one a sitrep with a very large Powerpoint attachment. No problem.

Apparently, some folks here are not privledge to the facts that over a quarter million people were evacuated from the predicted strike zone including thousands of 'critical needs' patients from affected hospitals and nursing homes, using hundreds of buses, hundreds of ambulances, numerous helicopters and numerous C-130 cargo planes. They were relocated to numerous locations accross Texas and other states.

Thank God that Gustav came ashore with less intensity than was originally thought. Shortly after crossing Cuba if was a strong Cat 4 storm. I, for one, feel that if one life was saved by the massive mobilization this storm generated, it was worth all the effort.

It sure seems this tread is filled with misinformation and second-guessing, which apparently originates from people who didn't participate and are basing their conclusions on one article.

We are all HAMs...shouldn't we all support one another rather than try to find fault and try to appear superior to others?

73'

KI4BUN/AAV6TP TX

 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by WB2WIK on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
As they say in the advertising industry and also in Hollywood, any press is good press and this story was mostly a happy ending.

I'm glad nobody got hurt and it all worked out.

Would love to see stuff like this compressed to a sound bite like, "Ham radio operators were ready and able to serve...and they did!"

Simple as that, all the public needs to know.

:-)

WB2WIK/6
 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by NA4IT on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
And just as a reminder, the WL2K used by MARS << IS NOT >> on amateur radio frequencies, but is used on MARS military frequencies. It doesn't interfere with amateur radio, so the "WL2K" gripe isn't valid.

de NA4IT

A Proud TN Army MARS Member...
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by NA4IT on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG...
"I'm not a naysayer, but based solely on the text, it would appear as another fed-sponsored, poorly implemented program.

The idea of emergency communications, is a lot more than just preplanning, having a go-set, a few portable antennas, etc. It also requires a well-planned implementation of said equipment. Far too often, this is the part that fails miserably."

Really. Two 3-4 man comms units with two HF rigs and all needed equipment such as TNC's, antennas, tuners, masts, interfaces, computers, resulting in one station on voice and one station on digital, in two different locations miles apart, all deployed in about 30 minutes time from arrival.

Poorly implemented? I think not....

For those not informed, MARS specialty is long haul HF done well.

de NA4IT
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by PLANKEYE on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
We are all HAMs...shouldn't we all support one another rather than try to find fault and try to appear superior to others?

73'

KI4BUN/AAV6TP TX

 
Army MARS - good fellow hams !  
by AI2IA on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To all those in Army Mars, congratulations for putting your best into it. Your reward is the experience itself, the accomplishment, and experience that will help you in the future - all a fine achievement and worthy of admiration and respect.

To all those outside of Army Mars, if you could have participated but were unable or really not up to it for your own good reasons, then you missed a special experience. If you can talk to these guys, maybe they will motivate you to join them and go with it the next time, if this is your kind of thing. Otherwise, if you are a ham, be glad that they are also part of us, and we part of them, and say "Job well done" even if we can't comprehend it, or appreciate it fully because all we can do is read articles about it however accurate or inaccurate, since we weren't there.
 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by N0AH on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
There is a reason I live 1,800 miles from the nearest ocean and most known earth quake zones............I don't have to deal with this.

I am glad Army MARS is taken a hand in this. Very FB and a much preferred organization versus locals who split as they should from storms or weekend heros who drive 2,000 miles with their RV's expecting a hook up at the local Red Cross, then blowing the fuses of the building when they were asked not to plug in- ........seriously, I saw this after Katrina. What a mess.

Go MARS!!!!!
 
You have to deal with yourself.  
by AI2IA on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"There is a reason I live 1,800 miles from the nearest ocean and most known earth quake zones............I don't have to deal with this."

N0AH, you may very well live 1,800 miles from these, but you cannot escape living very close to your own worst threat - your own mind. You help yourself most when you are helping others.

What good do you accomplish by describing bungled attempts? Do you think that you will discourage those who want to give a hand? Don't be just one more emcomm hater. Rise above that. If you get involved you will soon understand why emcomms train, train, train. You write nonsense and it is forgotten. If you go and see for your self you will understand, and that would be progress for you. If you participate, you will experience, and then you will know. Don't stand on the sidelines and put out empty criticism. Be bigger than what you seem!
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by WB2WIK on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

>Army MARS Challenged by Gustav Reply
by N0AH on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
There is a reason I live 1,800 miles from the nearest ocean and most known earth quake zones...<

::Typo? There isn't anyplace in America that's 1800 miles from the nearest ocean...
 
I want to be politically correct here.  
by NV2A on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Not sure what to say. Is it better to bash the efforts of these people least they start to develop some pride and dedication to purpose?

If you're damn house is laying on you would it be better if there was absolutely no one willing to make an effort on your behalf?

If you were charged with being the commander of these people would it be better for you to bash them?

If you really knew anything about this topic you would know that practice and familiarization are of paramount importance in this public service. You can't wait until Armageddon gets here and expect it all to work flawlessly!

Is it just your jealousy taking in that you are not part of the glory?

Being a retired TV news photographer I don't have a lot of use for those elitist who describe themselves as "hero's" but I haven't read that here at all.

And to the guys who do this stuff, don't worry about the nay-sayers. There will always be those who view the glass or virtually any situation as half full. Maybe in this case it's half fool.
 
RE: I want to be politically correct here.  
by K9MHZ on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>>>>by NV2A on September 7, 2008
If you were charged with being the commander of these people would it be better for you to bash them?<<<<


I'm glad you brought this up. Make no mistake, ARES/MARS, etc are very worthwhile, and do wonders for all of us when it comes time for WARC bandwidth allocations.

While there will always be contrarians who'll bash anything and everything, there are balanced and reasonable folks who get a little squeemish when they read the chest-pounding that goes on after something like Gustav. Having spent 23 years in the military, I saw it all the time. While sacrifice and service, especially for one's fellow man, are the noblest of pursuits, the indulgence and claims of credit for outcomes tend to go overboard. In the military, it's because there are so many people competing for so few levels of higher rank and command, and in something like Gustav, the League (I'm a life member, BTW) tends to portray hams/MARS operators as vital to saving the day......again, it's all about bandwidth protection.

Again, ARES/MARS and especially amateur search and rescue people are excellent....God bless 'em all. I wouldn't hesitate to help whe disaster hits here, but please be dignified and don't overdo it in the aftermath. Thanks, MARS guys, for your servive in Gustav.

Cheers,
Brad
K9MHZ

 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by WA1RNE on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
by KI4BUN on September 6, 2008

"Actually, a significant amount of traffic was passed, both to the JOC and SOC."

"The only comms ability the command staff had at our location was cell phone and local tactical comms. They had no internet and therefore no ability to recieve weather info maps and specific Hurricane forcast reports."

"We provided weather dispatches form the National Hurricane Center as well as weather faxes to the command staff in addition to passing sitreps, support requests, EEI reports and other traffic to the JOC via winlink."

"We were the command staff's only email capability until an Air Force ISIS unit arrived to provide sat-link internet access...more than 24 hours after our sation had been on the air."



>>> "Significant" doesn't describe the type and priority nature of any communications provided.

What exactly was the nature of this "traffic" and how did it relate to emergency operations?

What was the nature of the communications for backing-up airports??


Weather dispatches? Anyone with a shortwave receiver can obtain detailed weather reports, including color charts using the world wide NWS Radiofax service.


http://weather.noaa.gov/fax/gulf.shtml


National Weather Service marine text forecasts are also broadcast by the U.S. Coast Guard using HF SITOR.


You can even obtain reports via WAP capable cell phones, of course as long as cell service is still available:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutwap.shtml


Life goes on without email, even during times of emergency.


....WA1RNE
 
Ordinary good willed hams, and abnormal hams  
by AI2IA on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Not every ham is suited for emcomm or MARS service. Some adapt quickly, while others take longer. On the other hand, some give up too soon, and some can't bring themselves to give it an honest try. Many good hams have other commitments or infirmities that keep them away. We all understand this.

And then there is the other bunch - the emcomm bashers, career critics who will never acknowledge any good from ham volunteer emergency assistance, who avail themselves of every opportunity to mock and ridicule. These misfits are easily recognized from their sideline positions by their senseless consistency. It is obvious to everyone that these frequent contributing wacko types have personal problems. They are self-compelled to exhibit their personal frustrations with the generous volunteerism of uninhibited hams whenever they can.
 
RE: Ordinary good willed hams, and abnormal hams  
by N1EY on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
:their senseless consistency. It is obvious to everyone :that these frequent contributing wacko types have

I guess consistency must have something going against it. The ability to be consistent repeatedly over many years suggests something.

I've seen the MARS guys around here. I've seen ARES. I have been involved in RACES.

I've seen an extreme amount of pettiness and a desire by the ARES guys to be in charge. However, they do not have any clients.

One of the local EMA's has MURS for local communication. Other EMA's have their own licensed tactical frequencies. Every community has 800 mhz handhelds and fixed stations for communication with the state HQ and regional bunkers.

The State Guard has a communications squadron, which is ready to deploy. The EOPS and MEMA have a very elaborate setup with mobile repeaters.

Quite frankly, as my former governor said, "we do not need hams."

I know one that put the kibosh to any ham activity at my local town's EMA. We have a ham that still talks about '78. However, no one in my town wants to even bother with hams.

bill
 
RE: You have to deal with yourself.  
by PLANKEYE on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You have to deal with yourself. Reply
by AI2IA on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"There is a reason I live 1,800 miles from the nearest ocean and most known earth quake zones............I don't have to deal with this."

N0AH, you may very well live 1,800 miles from these, but you cannot escape living very close to your own worst threat - your own mind. You help yourself most when you are helping others.

What good do you accomplish by describing bungled attempts? Do you think that you will discourage those who want to give a hand? Don't be just one more emcomm hater. Rise above that. If you get involved you will soon understand why emcomms train, train, train. You write nonsense and it is forgotten. If you go and see for your self you will understand, and that would be progress for you. If you participate, you will experience, and then you will know. Don't stand on the sidelines and put out empty criticism. Be bigger than what you seem!

______________________________________________________

THIS IS PLANKEYE:

I'm just curious what in the world AI2IA smoked for lunch?

Did you re-read this by chance Sir?

Your post was like cooking a green tomatoe.

If you participate, then you will know, and then you.

Say what now?

OK, if you participate the participation, then you will know, and THEN.

Say what now?

And of course, be bigger than you seem!!

Bungle your whole post with WIK and you might have something here.

You owe me one big hug Mullins.

Maybe a big cake too. With toothpicks sticking out and everything!!

You write nonsense!




PLANKEYE
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by PLANKEYE on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>Army MARS Challenged by Gustav Reply
by N0AH on September 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
There is a reason I live 1,800 miles from the nearest ocean and most known earth quake zones...<

::Typo? There isn't anyplace in America that's 1800 miles from the nearest ocean...

WB2WIK

___________________________________________________

PLANKEYE:

Steven, you give Dr. Mullins and N0AH big hug RIGHT NOW!!

You don't participate in the participation that is expected in this participation.

You be good STEVEN!!






PLANKEYE!







 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by K0RGR on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I'm very glad to hear that MARS was active and contributing in the disaster recovery efforts.

I've been thinking about joining MARS myself. There are places where their EMCOMM capabilities would be a great complement to what ARES and RACES provide, particularly with their emphasis on email.

We also have a desire here to communicate with the regional Civil Air Patrol groups. CAP is no longer allowed to use ham gear on their frequencies, and that rule has somehow extended to licensed hams who are CAP members carrying HT's (the right way, the wrong way, the military way, I guess). But, CAP shares VHF frequencies with AF MARS, and I believe they should be able to communicate with us on the MARS repeaters.
 
RE: Ordinary good willed hams, and abnormal hams  
by PLANKEYE on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Ordinary good willed hams, and abnormal hams Reply
by AI2IA on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

AI2IA SPEAKS:

Not every ham is suited for emcomm or MARS service. Some adapt quickly, while others take longer. On the other hand, some give up too soon, and some can't bring themselves to give it an honest try. Many good hams have other commitments or infirmities that keep them away. We all understand this.

And then there is the other bunch - the emcomm bashers, career critics who will never acknowledge any good from ham volunteer emergency assistance, who avail themselves of every opportunity to mock and ridicule. These misfits are easily recognized from their sideline positions by their senseless consistency. It is obvious to everyone that these frequent contributing wacko types have personal problems. They are self-compelled to exhibit their personal frustrations with the generous volunteerism of uninhibited hams whenever they can.

________________________________________________

PLANKEYE:

You are silly and ignorant Ray.

You speak about the Wacko's that have personal problems.

It's obvious to everyone right?

WHO IS EVERYONE?

WHO ARE THEY?

Time to get the clowns out!!

Participate in the participation of the parcipitiveness under this participation.


You and WIK don't fool me one bit!!






PLANKEYE


 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by K9CTB on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG wrote:

"I'm not a naysayer, but based solely on the text, it would appear as another fed-sponsored, poorly implemented program.

Really? In looking back through the history of your commments, that's sort of hard to believe.

Great article and it shows that those who can, do ... and those who can't, well, bellyache. MARS' changing mission had growing pains which the members have dealt with admirably! FEMA, DHS and the volunteer organizations have integrated quite well these past few years. It's easy to cut down the achievers when you probably aren't fit enough to place yourself in harm's way in order to help others. It's even easier when you probably aren't getting the attention you think you deserve. Try serving others and see if you like it. It's contagious, and you might find that you have much more to learn than you have to teach. Given the huge number of quarterbacks available, relatively few actually play the game. From the history of your comments once again, it's easy to see where you fit.

73 de K9CTB
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by PLANKEYE on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG wrote:

"I'm not a naysayer, but based solely on the text, it would appear as another fed-sponsored, poorly implemented program.

Really? In looking back through the history of your commments, that's sort of hard to believe.

Great article and it shows that those who can, do ... and those who can't, well, bellyache. MARS' changing mission had growing pains which the members have dealt with admirably! FEMA, DHS and the volunteer organizations have integrated quite well these past few years. It's easy to cut down the achievers when you probably aren't fit enough to place yourself in harm's way in order to help others. It's even easier when you probably aren't getting the attention you think you deserve. Try serving others and see if you like it. It's contagious, and you might find that you have much more to learn than you have to teach. Given the huge number of quarterbacks available, relatively few actually play the game. From the history of your comments once again, it's easy to see where you fit.

73 de K9CTB

____________________________________________

PLANKEYE SPEAKS THIS:

NICE POST!!

I hope folks take the time to actually read it!!

REALLY NICE!!



PLANKEYE
 
No substitute for MARS or emcomm experience  
by AI2IA on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Gutless posters like Plankeye as he calls himself on a ham website help to demonstrate a pretty good picture of sideline critics. This fellow loves attention but fears taking personal credit for drawing it to his anonymous self.

There is no substitute for MARS or any encomm experience. Get it? NO SUBSITUTE. Your types don't have it. So deep down in their insides, for those that have any insides, all the freak posters know it as well as all the rest of us.

I hear and I forget.

I see and I remember.

I do and I understand.
-- Confucius

The anonymous Plankeyes don't "do." They just post. They are on the sidelines and we pass them by.
 
RE: No substitute for MARS or emcomm experience  
by W6JAK on September 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Constructive criticism can be helpful and contribute to improvement, especially when done in a polite and considerate manner. However, this is rare on Internet sites, including eHam. Below are a few quotes from my favorite president apropos to this discussion.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

(1910)

"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."

(1891)

"Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger."

(1894)

Theodore Roosevelt
 
RE: No substitute for MARS or emcomm experience  
by N9AOP on September 8, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
PLANKEYE and his ilk do have a useful purpose but we have not gotten there yet. They made a movie about it.
The flick was called SOYLENT GREEN.
 
RE: No substitute for MARS or emcomm experience  
by PLANKEYE on September 8, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I am very sorry Ray.

Please accept my apology.

PLANKEYE
 
RE: No substitute for MARS or emcomm experience  
by KG4ZVA on September 8, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I would like to say GREAT JOB to MOST(sorry) of the guys, whether MARS,RACES,ARES or whatever for bring there when they were needed and doing what they could to get through Gustav.

To the nay-sayers who live in MA,OH,NM,etc. You must not have a clue what its like during and after something like a hurricane. Gustav was a flop?? Maybe by the time it reached where you guys are, but those of us who live in this area know that it doesn't have to be a cat 5 to be dangerous.

And about the MOST comment let me explain, for those who were there, not only GREAT JOB, but also THANK YOU for being there! BUT I must add that I was really dissapointed in the response in my area. Granted we were not directly hit in the panhandle of Fl, but we were hit with the tornadoes and torrential downpours of rain from Gustav. There was VERY little response from ANY of the groups(ARES,RACES,etc) in the panhandle. They have nets and practices all the time around here but when they were needed they weren't there. The only ham activity was one ham at the EOC and one ham at one shelter giving the one at the EOC hourly head counts. NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM THESE GUYS AND WHAT THEY DID DO. But if it had not been for me being able to reach into the Mobile,Al. repeater, I would not have been able to keep up with all the warnings and watches for our area. There was no one relaying traffic, there was no one relaying ANY weather alerts, and there was no one taking any weather/damage reports. Needless to say, the operators on the net on the Mobile repeater were glad to take my report and were glad someone in my area was there! They were also relaying ALL the tornado warnings even for my area. And YES we DID have at least four touch down just in my area. I was also listening to the weather frequencies,but warnings were coming and going faster than their recorded loops could keep up with. Maybe the groups here in this area didnt think it was serious enough,but I bet the people with damage to their homes from tornadoes would SURELY dis-agree! THANKFULLY, only moderate damage was done.

Again...GREAT JOB GUYS and THANK YOU for being there!
 
Apology, Plankeye, MARS, emcomm  
by AI2IA on September 8, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
This is so far down the thread that few will probably read it, but I would like to state this:

I can critique Plankeye's views, but I won't object to him putting them on eHam.net. He can call me what he likes on here. I don't object to that either. It is not for me to censor this website. It is better for anyone to put their views on here, out in the open, and take the ups and downs for them. That is the purpose of this site.

My only suggestion is that anyone who posts here, if they want their words given due consideration, should post their call sign, or lacking that, their name.

I have no objection to anything said about my view or me on this website, so genuine or tongue in cheek, apology does not apply here.

As for MARS and emcomm, just like ham radio in general, they are what you make them for yourself. They are assets in your hands. What you do or don't do with them is not a judgment on them, it is a judgment on you. Appreciate them or mock them. The judgment falls on you.
 
RE: Apology, Plankeye, MARS, emcomm  
by WA1RNE on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

by AI2IA on September 8, 2008


"My only suggestion is that anyone who posts here, if they want their words given due consideration, should post their call sign, or lacking that, their name."


>>> Agreed...



"As for MARS and emcomm, just like ham radio in general, they are what you make them for yourself. They are assets in your hands. What you do or don't do with them is not a judgment on them, it is a judgment on you. Appreciate them or mock them. The judgment falls on you."


>>> Going by your past and present views, the ARRL, MARS or anything else the ARRL supports is completely infallible and always m-a-r-v-e-l-o-u-s, and you better love it or leave it. That's your opinion, not necessarily everyone else's.

You might consider for a moment whether a dose of COMMON SENSE and ACCOUNTABILITY should be factored into your thinking when all the EmComm "claims to fame and glory" are being handed out via press release. Do you believe EVERYTHING you hear or read? Maybe you check-up on some of these claims from time to time, or quite possibly you have some years of experience in this area to help you sort out fact from fiction??

Not everyone mocks the ARRL or MARS as you suggest. I asked a couple of honest questions based upon 30 years experience in Emergency Management communications and have yet to see a single tangible response. (maybe I won't, that's how it goes sometimes)

Whether you like it or not, there is what's known as an "opposing point of view" which others will express from time to time - some of which coming from some very informed people - whether it's here on eHam or out on the street.


....WA1RNE
 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by KE4ZHN on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Even though EMCOMM isnt my bag I applaud the efforts of those wishing to lend a hand in time of need. Especially those affiliated with our military. Politics aside, all Americans should support the military because these are the people defending the freedom we enjoy and all too often take for granted. It sure beats proclaiming how great you are in your own mind like some do on a regular basis here.
 
A real Ham and a Straw Ham  
by AI2IA on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Remarkable! I see that the MARS and emcomm bashers are still breathing life into this thread!

WA1RNE - Chris Harris has created a Straw Ham called AI2IA which he finds easier to refute as opposed to the real Ham AI2IA, Ray Mullin. For example:

"Going by your past and present views, the ARRL, MARS or anything else the ARRL supports is completely infallible and always m-a-r-v-e-l-o-u-s, and you better love it or leave it. That's your opinion" but sorry, Chris, that is not and never was "my opinion." It is an old fallacy called the argumentum ad extremum, or trying to depict your opponent as offering an extremely absurd position. It doesn't work, Chris.

How about this: "Not everyone mocks the ARRL or MARS as you suggest." - but the fact is that I don't "suggest" this. MARS and emcomm bashers do this, not everyone. What do you do?

"Whether you like it or not, there is what's known as an "opposing point of view" which others will express from time to time - some of which coming from some very informed people." The fact is that I have stated even in my previous comment to this one that eHam.net is the place for opinions, even wild ones, but comments from chronic MARS and emcomm bashers are not "coming from very informed people."

These views are expressed by AI2IA, Ray Mullin, the real AI2IA, not the straw AI2IA constructed by WA1RNE.

MARS and emcomm will serve the public well long after you and I are both forgotten. You are just a sideliner.
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by K4RAF on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Clearly this article highlights the "Symobolism over Substance" presented by the ARRL, EMCOMM & WinLink proponents who have drank too much Newington KoolAid...

The only "challenge" I see would be looking at the 1927lbs of equipment involved in handling just 27 messages & not laughing out loud.

ARRL - "We can't do that"

Raf


 
Welcome back to therapy, CJ!  
by AI2IA on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Where have you been, CJ? It has taken you a long time to joing the party on this thread! Why you are way down at the bottom! Not much action for you down this far, only your fellow party poopers and naysayers for the most part.

Oh well! Better late than never. Can you gin up something positive to say about MARS, emcomm, and the ARRL? What the heck! Just for something new and refreshing from you, how about it?
 
RE: Just Call Me Straw Man  
by WA1RNE on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
by AI2IA on September 9, 2008

Remarkable! A Straw Man called AI2IA finds it much easier to rubber stamp than to have an opposing point of view, just like that Straw Ham AI2IA, Ray Mullin.


Sounds like the same guy, the same one who avoids direct questions and comes up empty with nothing but fluff - I mean "straw".


"MARS and emcomm will serve the public well long after you and I are both forgotten. You are just a sideliner."


>>> No, not quite. Me and many other hams who have had an original thought or 2 and aren't afraid to speak up when the need arises will continue to keep some balance in the picture, as opposed to leaving it to guys like you who mobilize the professional cheerleading squads yielding rubber stamp approvals with an "EmComm Bashing" complex.


Last I checked, Cheerleaders occupy the sidelines....


...WA1RNE
 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by KE4ZHN on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It never ceases to amaze me how sickening some of these league cheerleaders can be. To hear some of these guys talk, the league is the be all and end all of the world....get real.
 
They cannot see themselves for what they are.  
by AI2IA on September 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"No, not quite. Me and many other hams who have had an original thought or 2 and aren't afraid to speak up when the need arises will continue to keep some balance in the picture, as opposed to leaving it to guys like you who mobilize the professional cheerleading squads yielding rubber stamp approvals with an "EmComm Bashing" complex." - WA1RNE

What is this "..when the need arises ...? Where are these "original" thoughts?

MARS and emcomm bashing does not demonstrate original thinking. It demonstrates bizarre thinking. It's not that you aren't afraid to speak up. It's that you don't have the good sense to keep it to yourself. You don't put "balance" in the picture. You put your unbalance in the picture for all to see. Serving the community is a fundamental part of amateur radio. It is one of the chief reasons why there is amateur radio in the first place, but you bashers know that. Some eccentrics on here can get away with a lot, but you bashers are marked as if you were wearing orange jump suits. It's always the same old negativities from your type. You just can't help yourself, can you?

Ah, this is an old thread and quite stale. Nothing new here. It's time for you to look ahead for the next opportunity to purge.
 
RE: They cannot see themselves for what they are.  
by WA1RNE on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Where are these "original" thoughts?

MARS and emcomm bashing does not demonstrate original thinking. It demonstrates bizarre thinking."


>>> Herein lies the problem. IMO, either you don't absorb what you read or you are in total denial, except when the ARRL gives you the go-ahead.


When someone or some organization makes a claim, it's not "bizarre" to ask reasonable questions and in turn expect reasonable answers.


In my first post, I asked some pretty reasonable questions:


> What types of "critical message traffic" were being handled?

> Which airports were being backed-up?

> What types of communications was ARMY MARS providing in their role as back-up?


Since you seem to be a self-proclaimed expert on "All that's Great" in ham radio, maybe you can provide some answers -as opposed to the usual EmComm rant and rave?


.....WA1RNE
 
RE: They cannot see themselves for what they are.  
by K4RAF on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Since "we" are supposedly standing alone in our opinions about EMCOMM/etc., it is my opinion that we are thinking for ourselves unlike you Ray. You are wearing an ARRL strobe that never needs batteries with your "all smiley faces, all the time" mentality toward the same old 1970's thinking.

I got news for you, the world of communications changes everyday. Your constant denial that anyone might have a differing opinion or worse yet, a departing idea has actually become quite amusing. I have worked in commercial wireless for over 25 years but I can't think for myself? Heh...

We have even talked about you on 75M because some of my group asked why I would even bother debating a myopic disciple of Newington...

Raf
 
eHam.net & 75 meters safe havens for bashers  
by AI2IA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"We have even talked about you on 75M because some of my group asked why I would even bother debating a myopic disciple of Newington..." - Raf

Now that we are down in the depths CJ, I can direct this observation to you without distracting others who might want to concentrate on the accomplishments of MARS.

MARS, emcomm, and ARRL bashers like yourself have few forums from which to drone their continuous negativities. eHam.net is one of the hangouts, but it is noteworthy that you hang around 75 meters, too. 75 meters has acquired a rather unflattering reputation over the years as a hang out for the vulgar, the obscene, the CB throwbacks, and now the MARS emcomm and ARRL bashers, too? There must be something that lures all the kooks to this band. It can't be the quality audio they hear there. You don't debate, CJ, all you do is mouth negatives. You are a basher, not a debater.
 
What's your purpose, Chris?  
by AI2IA on September 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
We are as I said, at the bottom now, so it's okay to state your agenda, Chris. What is the purpose of your comments on MARS here? Is your intent to ask constructive questions in order to improve MARS operations? Is that your purpose? Is it?

Or are you simply trying your hardest to expose faults, shortcomings, or flaws in MARS just for the sake of knocking the successes of the MARS volunteers?

What is your intended goal in all your criticisms?

What message are you trying to give?

Would you like to see MARS and emcomm made off limits to all amateur radio operators?

How would you improve things?

Here is your chance to show your true colors if you are not really a basher at heart. What say you?

 
RE: What's your purpose, Chris?  
by WA1RNE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

Ray, as I said before, you need to READ what people post before jumping to conclusions.

Go back to the beginning and read the very first reply to this article. As you will see, I asked some very constructive questions right from the get-go.


For example, from the original article:

"Early on the Transportation Security Administration turned to the Army MARS system for backing up communications at major airports. And when Hurricane Dolly blustered toward shore last month, key airports in Florida, Georgia and Alabama had WinLink stations up and running with operators trained by Army MARS. Other emergency agencies are in the process of following TSA's lead."


Are you not the slightest bit concerned that NETCOM and MARS claims to be backing up communications for airports and the TSA but doesn't provide any of the details? I've never heard of amateur radio performing this function, and quite frankly, don't see how we could be qualified to do so.


"Question" is not a synonym for "criticism", and questions are what I asked.


I believe amateur radio has it's place in EmComm, but also believe we need to be more focused about what exactly we do as well as being more truthful about what we say and what we ACTUALLY accomplish. That doesn't apply to all amateurs, since many already represent themselves as they should and are very focused in areas where they can really do the most good.

I've stated this many times in the past: Providing an extension to common carrier broadband services like email is, IMO not where we should be concentrating our resources. I am especially concerned that the proponents of WinLink have refused to revise their HF transmission protocol to insure there busy channel detection is included. Since is isn't, WinLink can QRM other stations "at will". IMO, that's poor operating practice, irresponsible and against FCC rules. I'm less concerned about this on VHF or UHF frequencies which is where WinLink should be used.


I also pointed out that using ham radio for weather reports is another unnecessary use of our resources, considering that the NWS Radiofax service is available to anyone WORLDWIDE who wants to use it - including local, state and federal agencies.


These are some of the strategic reasons I disagree with the ARRL and NETCOM. Quite simply, the ARRL needs to partner with Emergency Management officials, examine the gaps and suggest some innovative ways to improve their overall capabilities. Providing slow-email via a proprietary and expensive interface via 1.5% of the licensed amateur population and ticking-off the other 98.5% in the process isn't the way to go.


....WA1RNE
 
Useful and Useless  
by AI2IA on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
MARS is a good thing. Emcomm is a good thing. The ARRL is a good thing. The records of all three establish this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Constructive criticism is a good thing.

As long as posts show constructive criticism they reflect sound thinking.

Consistent posting of negative criticism, Refusal to acknowledge the selfless work of volunteers who do their best to help their community,

Stubborn refusal to recognize the value of amateur related service to the public "particularly with respect to providing emergency communications" [Section 97.1(a)] - all these are bad things.

Where you relate to these points determines whether you are engaged in useless bashing or useful criticism for the improvement of these endeavors. You figure out where you stand.
 
RE: Useful and Useless  
by WA1RNE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Consistent posting of negative criticism, Refusal to acknowledge the selfless work of volunteers who do their best to help their community,

Stubborn refusal to recognize the value of amateur related service to the public "particularly with respect to providing emergency communications" [Section 97.1(a)] - all these are bad things.

Where you relate to these points determines whether you are engaged in useless bashing or useful criticism for the improvement of these endeavors. You figure out where you stand.


>>> Ray, are you for real?? Can't you figure out by now where I stand? Gosh man, I've literally explained my butt off, and all you can come up with is this?

Try this for starters: GO OUT ON A LIMB - Do some of the leg work for once, do some research and then come back and answer the direct questions I asked since your first post on September 6th. If you don't know where to start, maybe you can call the ARRL and ask them for some assistance.

They're reasonable questions, Ray, or is this your "stubborn refusal to recognize" that?


...WA1RNE
 
RE: Useful and Useless  
by PLANKEYE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
AI2A:

MARS is a good thing. Emcomm is a good thing. The ARRL is a good thing. The records of all three establish this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Constructive criticism is a good thing.

As long as posts show constructive criticism they reflect sound thinking.

Consistent posting of negative criticism, Refusal to acknowledge the selfless work of volunteers who do their best to help their community,

Stubborn refusal to recognize the value of amateur related service to the public "particularly with respect to providing emergency communications" [Section 97.1(a)] - all these are bad things.

Where you relate to these points determines whether you are engaged in useless bashing or useful criticism for the improvement of these endeavors. You figure out where you stand.

__________________________________________________


PLANKEYE

Just answer the questions Ray.

Where you relate to these points determines whether you are engaged in useless bashing or useful criticism.

You figure out where you stand.




PLANKEYE

 
Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by AI2IA on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"To the volunteer radio operators in Army MARS, too, it was the first real flexing under fire of new communications muscle developed after Hurricane Katrina.
And the system worked."

Congratulations - MARS!


Virtue is not left to stand alone. He who practices it will have it.
-- Confucius


Ray Mullin, AI2IA






 
RE: Army MARS Challenged by Gustav  
by PLANKEYE on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Ray Mullins:

Lets meet for breakfast!!

Your buying though, you son-of-a-gun!!



PLANKEYE
 
The last chance to stand and be counted.  
by AI2IA on September 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
To the timid soul who hides behind his handle "Plankeye":

Until you muster up the guts to put some flesh in the game like a first name, a last name, and a call sign, you remain the very least and trivial of the bashers. As you are you have the power to summon up nothing at all. You have no soul in your type font.

The other bashers at least are bold, even if irrational. You have nothing, and from nothing, nothing is produced. Go get you a first name, a last name, and a call sign, and begin anew. We hardly know you!
 
RE: The last chance to stand and be counted.  
by PLANKEYE on September 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Ray Mullins AI2A:

You need one big hug.

You get in that hug line right now!!

Gee whiz man, get ahold of yourself.

Lighten up, it's a hobby.



PLANKEYE



 
Reality of EMCOMM  
by K4RAF on September 17, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
http://tinyurl.com/66376l

Read the entire article?

Any questions?
 
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