Contest Versus Ike?
Ira Jones (WB6LNH)
on
September 16, 2008
View comments about this article!
I had two shifts this weekend for my participation on the Maritime Mobile Service Net.
As many know this net has been active for many many years and supports both maritime mobiles and US Military deployed.
It is also a venue for disaster communications.
Friday evening schedule 1900est to 2000est no problems, ran many requests for various reasons out of affected area of Texas.
Saturday was quite different. One gent actually called CQ contest while I was arranging a phone patch for a man that had lost his house and had family injuries. When I requested the CQ calling station to please QSY and that I was actually conducting emergency communications the station said, he could hear me, but not the other station and since he could not hear the other station he was going to pursue his contest endeavors.
Is this the amateur radio we want?
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by K4MC on September 16, 2008
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Contesters acting like that are just another example of the "me first" attitude that pervades the country. Service to others should be the first priority in the Amateur community, fun and games, second. The coordinating bodies for these contests should step up to the plate and institute contest rules that prohibit interference on emergency nets. The right thing to do would be to cancel the event or postpone it during a declared disaster. We tout our service, and then shoot ourselves in the foot with such childish actions during a disaster. Its time we clean up our act, and use some of that common sense we used to pass the exam.
Contesters, when someone's well being in on the line, just step aside and let the contest go, you'll be a better person for it. Even better, roll up your sleeves and help out.
Wendell
K4MC
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by NV2A on September 16, 2008
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One instance does not a degenerative hobby make.
99.9% of the Hams out there would go out of their way to help you get traffic through.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KB9CRY on September 16, 2008
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"One gent actually called CQ contest"
"Contesters acting like that are just another example"
OK, let me get this straight...
You have a problem with one individual and now that's representative of the entire population of contesters?
With that logic, I'd say that all the other amateur folks are just a bunch of whining me, me, me's who have no clue how to deal with a challenge. Right?
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by W8JI on September 16, 2008
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Who was the guy and what is his side of the story?
Why not contact the person heading that contest and get him involved?
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 16, 2008
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Wow, judging a whole bunch of folks on the action of one. Thats sad.
I wonder if a ragchewer, or DXer has ever fired up accidentally on freq while conducting a phone patch??
There were several emails sent on the contesting reflectors alerting us to net freqs, and requests to stay away from them. Other than one guy who screwed up, sounds like everything went well.
Did you get the guys call? Did you contact him? Did you let him know what was going on? Most important, did he leave?
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by WN9HJW on September 16, 2008
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>> One gent actually called CQ contest while I was arranging a phone patch for a man that had lost his house and had family injuries. When I requested the CQ calling station to please QSY and that I was actually conducting emergency communications <<
May be a nit-pick, but a phone patch? That sounds more like you were arranging a health-and-welfare traffic, not "emergency" communications. There's a difference.
That doesn't excuse intentional interference, of course, IF that's what was happening.
On the other hand, you did not say whether that person was spot on your frequency deliberately QRMing you, or may in fact have been several khz away and you were just annoyed that he wasn't 20 kHz away.
What was the other side of the story?
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by K9CTB on September 16, 2008
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KB9CRY:
"With that logic, I'd say that all the other amateur folks are just a bunch of whining me, me, me's who have no clue how to deal with a challenge. Right?"
----------
Um, call me dull but a guy ... even if he's .0000001% of the ham population, who INTENTIONALLY QRMs an ECOM situation presents more than "a challenge".
If you look closely at Part 97, you'll remember that emergency communications is part of our charter as radio amateurs.
Chasing wallpaper is fine for those who like that stuff, but intentional interference with our primary mission is ridiculous. People who try to defend such behavior probably shouldn't be hams.
73 de K9CTB
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by AJ4CU on September 16, 2008
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Hi All,
All I can say is that was very rude and I would have gotten his call and made a formal complaint to fccham@fcc.gov be sure to sign it so as not to waste time.
Part 97 is in place for a reason, health and welfare or emergency no matter, only hearing one side of that qso should not be an issue just about all ham's know what 14.300 is used for and should be cognizant of just that.
Maybe that rude ham will have to get traffic through one day and have the same experience, perhaps that will open his eyes.
73 ES CU DN THE LOG DE AJ4CU
Hari
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by K0EWS on September 16, 2008
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Most contesters are good operators, so I won't blame the contest. Some individual operators, however, aren't that smart, or aware of what goes on with 20 meters during the day. 14.300 is somewhere that most folks just steer clear of. They know what's there, and just tune around it.
Sounds like you just ran into a LID. Don't get mad at all contesters for it.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KB2DHG on September 16, 2008
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Being into Amateur Radio for over 30 years, this is not an uncommon delema...
Unfortunately in ALL venues, there are always bad apples.
I only wish there would be more mentoring out there and people could just learn to be courtious.
For the most part and as the numbers go I still think the majority of HAM OPEARTORS are very good operators and people.
So Please before you call CQ, PLEASE, PLEASE ask first, if the frequency is in use... Take your time and listen first...
We are not going anywhere we will answer your call...
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by WA3SKN on September 16, 2008
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This is not an article.
it is...
1. A complaint.
2. An opinion.
Since both International Law and FCC regulations are quite specific about "Priority" communications and "Harmful interference", you should report it.
I hope you documented it.
It does not reflect on all of ham radio.
73s.
-Mike.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W5GNB on September 16, 2008
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The very SAME thing happened during the Katrina disaster a few years ago. I complained to the contest organizers and as usual NOTHTING was ever done.
Yes, this IS ham radio taday, just a bunch of self serving CB operators if you ask me!!
73's
Gary - W5GNB
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by WB4AEJ on September 16, 2008
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Imagine the heat that operator would've taken if we knew his identity.
Isn't interfering with emergency communications a nono with the FCC? Why don't you report him?
Some years ago, we were running a net to support a Red Cross fundraising event. Apparently the frequency we were using was used some regular net but it wasn't their net time.
Nevertheless, one of the members of that net was transmitting harrassing messages interfering with our operation.
At the next meeting, I proposed we had a tape recorder ready for the next net operation just in case. If we had a tape of it, we could submit an operating complaint against him.
And I do agree that this 'me first' attitude is counterproductive to the health and well being of amateur radio.
Fred, WB4AEJ
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by NI0C on September 16, 2008
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Isn't eHam great? Anybody can be a published author of an article here in this space. Got a gripe against a fellow ham, but don't have the guts to confront the person directly? No problem-- just shoot off an article, send it in. The robot editor will pass it through. You too can be famous!
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W9OY on September 16, 2008
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This whole thread is so silly. A good op would just QSY and not write huffy eham articles. Probably 3 khz would have done it. With cell phones and TV camera trucks on every corner peering at yet another pile of boards and the internet agog with a blog, the notion that there is some great emergency need for a friggin phone patch to let uncle Joe know you got hit by a hurricane is pretentious. If you waited ten minutes Gerraldo will probably come by and interview you, as he stands out in 120mph winds blabbing about how it's really windy while we all pray the fool finally gets impaled by a flying 2x4.... -DUH
Ohhhh the Drama
We are living in our glory days boys. You know the days when men were men and the sheep ran scared. The days when single handedly using a mere strait key made out of a hack saw blade, a trusty MOPA and a hastily constructed Windom, health and welfare traffic filled the low end of 80M for as long as the B battery lasted....BK send lawyers guns and money BK....All Perry Como records destroyed in storm BK...We've been without air conditioning for nearly 16 hours!!!! BK.....Give me a BK
73 W9OY
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KG6WLS on September 16, 2008
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Although there is a moral to this story, this article (attempt) should have been posted in the EmComm or Contest forum.
Is this the headline amateur article we want on eHam? We need more technical articles instead of the climbing up on the soapbox types with “I don’t like this and I don’t like that so, I’m going to vent”.
Good gravy!!
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KC2RGW on September 16, 2008
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I'm glad it was mentioned, there was all too much intentional interference by the contesters on the hurricane net frequencies this weekend. I give the control ops a lot of credit for staying with it.
1 kHz on either side of an emergency traffic net does not constitute adequate courtesy.
Quite frankly, it was disgusting.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by K1DA on September 16, 2008
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Two points. One: Contest station owners may be good operators but the screaming 15 year old "neva had a radio THIS big before" types they stack their multi ops with can be real beauties.
Two: Only the grossly uninformed, never turn it on but at contest time types don't know what 14.300 is used for ALL THE TIME. DOn't like that concept??? well, just consider all the stations on '300 who ARE NOT operating somewhere else.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by K9MHZ on September 16, 2008
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One guy...no biggie. Not an indictment on society today.
Sounds like many of you were helping during Ike.....I think that alone says much more about ham radio. Thanks for your service.
Best,
Brad
K9MHZ
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KC5AV on September 16, 2008
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Bob,
You'll find that the Internet is a lot like ham radio. If you don't like the stuff you're hearing (reading), feel free to spin the VFO.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WN9HJW on September 16, 2008
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>> Isn't interfering with emergency communications a nono with the FCC? Why don't you report him?
Some years ago, we were running a net to support a Red Cross fundraising event. Apparently the frequency we were using was used some regular net but it wasn't their net time. <<
So now *fundraising* is considered "emergency communications". Sheesh.
And as in the other alleged incident, what is the other side of the story. Did your Red Cross Emergency Fundraiser net stomp on another net that was already in progress?
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by K7PEH on September 16, 2008
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I think I heard that guy calling CQ TEST on 14300 KHz. I was surprised because at the time I was also casually listening to the emergency traffic help due to Hurricane Ike and ships or boats in the Gulf. And, I was mobile in my pickup truck near Seattle, Washington. So, if I could hear the emergency traffic, I would expect that the CQ'er could hear it too.
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by W4VR on September 16, 2008
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He should have moved. Just poor operating practice on his part. You can always file a complaint with the FCC...but with Hollingsworth gone I'm not sure what kind of attention you would get from them.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WB2WIK on September 16, 2008
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Sounds like the "contester" in this example was being a jerk, however one problem I have heard with net operators is their reluctance to be flexible and simply QSY to conduct traffic. Take it off .300 or wherever you are, and find a clear spot, and be done with it.
A great operator can handle that task in five seconds, including finding the clear spot, asking if it's in use, coming back down to the first frequency and notifying the other station where to QSY.
Contesters actually pretty rarely venture above .300 on twenty meters, it's just not common contest territory except for possibly Field Day or the November Sweepstakes, and this weekend was neither.
I tend to QSY even before complaining, because complaining burns valuable time; an efficient QSY doesn't.
WB2WIK/6
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE5DLZ on September 16, 2008
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I have been an NCS for the Texas Emergency Net since Ike came ashore. For those that have written negative remarks about this thread, You might notice I said EMERGENCY NET. There has not been a night that we have not gotten severe intentional QRM. Ranging from constant key down to rude comments to just making noises. I even had one guy calling BREAK BREAK.I am not saying the whole Ham community is involved. It is a fact though that this nonsense happens too often. Oh and by the way, these guys don't give their call signs. WE are handling Emergency traffic, and yet have people acting this way.
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by W6CAW on September 16, 2008
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The contest people should be given their own area to operate in. A very narrow area! Can you guess I am not a contester? I noticed during the last 2 hurricanes a number of people tuning up over the nets. I can't understand why someone would spend all that money on equipment and do nothing with it but interfere with any communications let alone emergency communication.
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Abuse, if any, dones not rule out proper use.
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by AI2IA on September 16, 2008
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Who benefits by plastering this one-sided anecdotal account on eHam.net? Isn't it obvious that it provides an opportunity for all the contest haters to vent their pent up hostilities? Where are the details? Was this alleged interrupter a foreign station that did not know what was going on? Did it really happen exactly this way? Who knows?
What kind of lopsided posts are you going to see when a simple lament, lacking details, is put up without a comment from the opposing party?
Whatever the intentions, this article promotes division, gives opportunity to unreasonable detractors of contests, and does not promote the amateur service and all the good that really is accomplished by it including contests and emcomm.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KB9CRY on September 16, 2008
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WE are handling Emergency traffic, and yet have people acting this way.
So what exactly do you want US to do about it?
What can we do about it?
Seems that all of us are courteous operators who understood that there was an emergency in progress and we all stayed away from the net traffic.
Do you feel better complaining to us?
What would you do about future interferers?
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W1ITT on September 16, 2008
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FCC rules and regs tell us that we must only use the minimum amount of power to carry out the desired communication. Common sense would tell us however, that stations anticipating carrying priority or emergency communications should put out the best signal possible. This serves two objectives, to establish a presence on the frequency that discourages people from landing there, and allowing the net to communicate when someone, for whatever reason, does manage to interfere. We can't all run California Kilowatts and Rhombics, but net controls shouldn't expect miracles with QRP and a trap vertical, regardless of the social value of their work.
Having improved both my antenna and power situation a couple years ago, I'm rarely bothered by contesters. Put enough RF into the ether and even the dumb ones will find other places to play.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE5DLZ on September 16, 2008
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"So what exactly do you want US to do about it?
What can we do about it?
Seems that all of us are courteous operators who understood that there was an emergency in progress and we all stayed away from the net traffic.
Do you feel better complaining to us? "
Actually, I was simply stating the facts. I reread my post and don't recalling asking for your help. I don't recall saying YOU were interfering with me.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by AA8X on September 16, 2008
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Contesters are inconsiderate and think they own the airwaves. Its time to put an end to worthless contests taking up all the frequencies with operators that have no respect for non-contesters.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W6ZPC on September 16, 2008
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At the risk of being laughed at or flamed at, does anyone ask "Is this frequency in use any more". That's what I was taught to do, even if you don't hear another signal on your frequency. Of course if I was aware of an emergency net on a certain frequency, I would definitely give it a wide berth.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by AA5JG on September 16, 2008
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"Contesters are inconsiderate and think they own the airwaves"
Same for nets and for emergency communicators. No one owns the airwaves, and unless the FCC specifically designates a frequency as reserved for emergency communications, it can be used by whoever gets there first. If I get on 14.300 before the Maritime Mobile net does in the morning, then it is technically my frequency and they should have to move.
73s John AA5JG
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by W1CTN on September 16, 2008
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One bad op cannot be used to judge all the others who participate in this section of our hobby.
Was this op a stateside op or a European? The only major contest I knew of this past weekend was the Worked All Europe SSB.
The rules of that contest DOES NOT allow participation above 14.3 Mhz.
I find it hard to believe that any op, US or EU would not QSY if it was announced that emergency traffic was being handled on frequency.
Shouldn't net control stations have enough aluminum and RF to hold onto a frequency. at times, 20 meters is a rough neighborhood.
The NCS should file a formal complaint with the FCC (if the offending op was a US station) that this station was disrupting emergency traffic. If a DX station, well good luck.
73
Dave W1CTN
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by AA4OQ on September 16, 2008
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Back a week or so ago I was participating in the Tennessee QSO party. I had been working an open frequency for about thirty min or more when two ragchewers came on the freq and was talking about all these %#@*&!^ contesters and how I was on THEIR frequenccy... I never said a word to them on the air... I simply turned the dial.
Now, should I say how "Ragchewers are so inconsiderate and try to interfear with contest and they all think they own a freq. because thats where they allways QSO?"
No... But I do feel thats how those two individuals are, but just a couple of bad apples in the group. Looking back now, yes I could have gotten their calls and reported them for intentional interferance, but it really didn't bother me that much because it was so much easier for me to just QSY.
I do not consider myself a contester, a paper chaser, a ragchewer nor anything else but a HAM because I enjoy all aspects of ham radio.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by AB7E on September 16, 2008
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Come on, how does tripe like this keep getting published here on eHam? I realize it is eHam's way of generating page hits via the responses, but this is ridiculous. If anything, it could have been a Speakout ... certainly not an Article.
Besides, for every instance of a LID who interferes with a traffic net there is an instance of a net that stomps on a QSO because they think they have some right to that frequency. How many nets have you heard move or wait until a pre-existing QSO is over? Probably about the same quantity as the number of contesters who won't stay off the net frequencies. Bad behavior is bad behavior no matter what side of the fence you're on, and my own experience is that it occurs in roughly equal measure.
I still believe that emergency communications is an important part of the ham radio charter, but it is becoming less and less relevant in real life. The most useful information I heard passed on any of the nets I monitored during Ike were the cell phone numbers of various local official emergency groups and the URLs of web sites that had web cameras or on-the-scene reports. Almost all of the questions I heard fed into the nets from hams outside the region (how bad is the flooding in such-and-such county, does such-and-such city have electrical power, etc) were met with "we don't know". I personally wouldn't even think of operating close enough to an emergency net to potentially disrupt important traffic, but in reality I'm probably just being politically correct.
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by K1CJS on September 16, 2008
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This is not an uncommon occurance, but contesters have a right to the ham radio frequencies--IF they are not occupied by emergency traffic. So it was a phone patch--the guy was still helping out someone in the disaster area, someone who probably needed the help ASAP. The contesters should have given ground and left the frequency. If one of them couldn't hear the welfare traffic the other should have told him.
____________
On another note, this article certainly doesn't belong here--it belongs in an e-mail to the enforcement division of the FCC, along with proper licensee identifications. It has always been done here, in line with the 'openness' of this site, but lately quite a few of these 'articles' belong in the 'news' section or the 'speakout' section. To put it in a rather outlandish way--this site needs an enema.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N6AJR on September 16, 2008
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two points,
#1 14.300 is a frequency I am entitled to use and does not "belong to the maritime ne any more than 14.230 " belongs to the TV folks.
#2 an FCC declaration can will clear a frequency for emergency use. The Maritime Net is not the FCC
That said, If folks are using a frequency for an established net , we should try to accomadate them. But the net can also move up or dowan a few KC's to fine clear air also.
So who was technically correct here and who had a "moral" obligation to move.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KC2RGW on September 16, 2008
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>>Was this op a stateside op or a European? The only major contest I knew of this past weekend was the Worked All Europe SSB.
The rules of that contest DOES NOT allow participation above 14.3 Mhz. >>>
Now that is interesting because there were a pile of EU stations well above 300 working the contest. A 4O5x station for sure was on 305 for quite some time and there were several more above that interfering with .325 and the hurricane net traffic there.
As for those who think that 14.300 is worth keying over, I feel sorry for you. 14.300 to me is what the foundation of this hobby is about. The maritime mobile net is a public service and many times deals in the safety of the boaters who participate. It isn't the talk about my gall bladder hour, it is a public service to the boating community.
Most contesters don't seem to ever be on the bands otherwise so it shouldn't surprise me that they aren't aware of this.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KF4HR on September 16, 2008
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This subject is as good any article I've seen on eham, better than some, and addresses a real problem.
Of course the contester's will champion their "contesting, yep... do or die" position, and non-contesters will see the other side on this, but what the author and W5GNB speak of, is a serious issue.
Contesting (in general) does have the potential to interfere with emergency communications traffic. I don't dismiss this issue as a "single bad operator". Why? Because if it wasn't one contester, it would be another; perhaps someone not initially hearing the emergency traffic, maybe a new operator, and of course there's always the contest splatter to contend with. Initially you might clear the frequency for emergency traffic, but not for long. Trying to hold an emergency QSO during a contest is akin to trying to hold a whole row of theater seats in a busy New York theater, as it starts to fill up. These seats are taken! Taken! TAKEN!
The two examples have been pointed out (and quickly dismissed by some), and I'd be willing to bet this happen more often than we'd like to think. For those trying to pass emergency traffic during a contest, my hat is definitely off to you.
Doesn't it seem a bit ironic that amateur radio's main purpose is to provide back-up emergency communications, but contests have (at least the potential) to negatively affect emergency communications?
Granted, the frequency of these occurrences are probably small, but put the shoe on the other foot. If that emergency traffic directly effected you or your family, particularly if it was a life or death situation, I'm guessing you might think it's a tad more important than someone trying to rack up their contest score.
I find it interesting that we can set aside frequencies for "Gentlemen's DX Window's, but we can't seem to set aside a bit of frequency exclusively for real emergency traffic.
Generally I see nothing wrong with contesting. It's a fact of the hobby. But the contest rules need to change a bit to provide a bit of space should emergency traffic need to get through.
If you agree, write the ARRL. It's a start and there is power in numbers. Let the sparks fly.
KF4HR
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KB9CRY on September 16, 2008
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But the net can also move up or dowan a few KC's to fine clear air also.
I've never ever seen/heard a net operator move; I challenge that they don't know how to do that.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by TI2KI on September 16, 2008
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I heard around 14.258 at abotu 2230 UTC on saturday a stateside station calling repeatedly for anyone requireing assitance related to Ike, and had no response. He called for about half an hour and no reply, also, he wasn't pushed by contesters.
I think that perhaps you are generalizing.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by K4RAF on September 16, 2008
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Yea, whatever...
While I am not pro-contest at all, I am no longer drinking the "When ALL Else Fails" Koolaid either.
You have to wonder how the charade continues unabated when you read through lengthy articles like this: http://tinyurl.com/66376l
The 'meat' of W-A-E-F's is running way thin when compared to realities in the field.
Then consider the ever expanding IRLP/VoIP use (NOT Radio IMHO), email utilization at ARRL HQ (Giving up the "W-A-E-F's" spirit) & the numerous "adult" alternatives that EOCs are actually using in this article. People without licenses at all now stream audio {without IRLP} from scanners in affected areas. I found several for IKE, an increasing trend. That can offer informal field reports, without the antique hand holding, net controls & traffic forms model. The Red Cross takes H&W inquiries on the web? Hello, Wake up people! LMAO
Besides, you can quote all the FCC law you want to, when (if EVER) can you cite ANYONE being cited for QRM'ing ANY "Emergency Nets" intentionally? Afterall, we're "self-policing". Even the FCC ignores the "problems", contesters, "intruders" or otherwise... LMAOA
Raf
wifidx@gmail.com
[NO Traffic - NO 'Cycles'?]
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KA2UUP on September 16, 2008
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Regardless if it was one ham or one hundred, it gives a bad impression about the ham community. Some seem to have forgotten that the letter S in the acronym "ARS" is for Service.
The poster said that he was running a phone patch for someone who had lost his house in the hurricane strike area. That sounds like an emergency to me and not a MWR call.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by WA6L on September 16, 2008
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Wow -- you ran into a bad operator. What are the odds of that?
So now, because this bad operator was in a contest, all contesters are at fault.
Because all contesters are at fault, it shows that there is a pervasive "me first" attitude in the country.
I don't know which is worse. Someone posting this nonsense or me reading it.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by G0GQK on September 16, 2008
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A sorry state of affairs. You call this radio amateur a gentleman. No,he wasn't a gentleman. I see this on TV all the time. A cop comes on the TV and talks about a man who has committed an horrendous crime, and then calls this low life, a gentleman !!
G0GQK
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W9PMZ on September 16, 2008
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First in the trashing of contesters, don't forget Part 97!
"(c) Encouragement and improvement
of the amateur service through rules
which provide for advancing skills in
both the communication and technical
phases of the art."
Contesting certainly improves communication skills. It trains the operator to copy both CW and SSB under difficult band conditions.
I generally do not operate contests, but believe that they are OK. I just avoid the contesters.
With regard to the "situation", there are two sides to the story. I have heard annoying contesters and self rightous net control behaviour. Does this disqualify both activities? I don't think so.
This article was a troll because the author had an axe to grind. This really wasn't the forum to take this to. What ever happened to killing the other with kindness to foster cooperation?
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W7CNA on September 16, 2008
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Carl,
You hit it right on. The door swings both ways.
The authors was just blowing off steam.
Mike
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by ZENKI on September 16, 2008
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He must of been a bad net operator with a crystal controlled transmitter who owns 14.300
I am sure if it was a legitimate emergency the contester would have cleared off frequency.
The problem is that 14.300 has becoming a parking frequency. People seem to sit there 24/7 "guarding" this frequency. I have been even run off coming close to this frequency by people telling me that I "might" be interfering with emergency maritime communications.
There is no need for maritime comfort nets, and since nobody has been licensed to one particular frequency, 14.150 is just as good as 14.300. A good operator would have asked the operator to qsy 20 times if getting the message through was the first priority. However if you want to protect the castle frequency while it burns i suppose you have to live with the consequences of your poor operating practice decisions.
Another issue is that most of these net controllers want to behave as if they are a professional maritime operator. Unfortunately they dont have a signal to match the duties that they would like to perform. Nobody can hear station with a G5RV on the back of the beam, just because they hear the contester does not mean the contester is hearing them.
I am sure if it was a legitimate emergency other hams would have assisted the net controller to take control of the frequency. Taking a boring roll call of stations does not constitute emergency traffic. Its hobby traffic no different to any other amateur traffic +- QRM +- 100khz!
Zenki
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 16, 2008
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Now wait a minute...
A guy had lost his house, and family had injuries? Bad news, yes. but, seems a bit FISHY to me!
- This guy lost his house, and had hrt folks by him, but, had a phone to complete a patch??? What the heck? Why didn't he just USE HIS PHONE TO CALL FOR HELP?
Again, sounds like a BS story to me.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W7CNA on September 16, 2008
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I've listened to that Frequency on and off for years and they have always had interference issues and 99% were not from contesters. Just wait until cycle 24 gets hot and the battle will heat up again. Let us just move on!!
Mike
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by NK5G on September 16, 2008
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Granted the contester was rude to say the least, but I would think that 17 meters would be a better venue than 20 meters mainly due to the contesters and CBers.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by N4KAM on September 16, 2008
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To continue transmitting when advised that the frequency (whatever frequency)is in use for emergency traffic is inexcusable. The interferring station's excuse to continue transmitting was that he could not hear the other station. Invalid justification!
The original post mentions one LID. As far as the health and future of the amateur radio community is concerned, I am more disturbed by the number of unsympathetic responses I have read here.
Most of us know that Maritime is on 14.300, SATERN (Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio Net) is on 14.265. Why not respect that?
During the 2004 hurricanes here in Florida, when all other communications were unavailable, I was able to get a message to my wife in Houston undergoing cancer treatment, via SATERN, that our family and dwelling were OK. Emergency? Maybe not. But it sure was nice.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KT0DD on September 16, 2008
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Anyone who doesn't have enough common sense to know which type of communications are more important and therefore should be given the "right of way" shouldn't be allowed to hold an amateur license. Emcomms are ALWAYS more important than contesting, ragchewing etc. PERIOD! If Emcomms are taking place on your favorite frequency and it upsets you, you can always go back to 27.505 where you started from and call for "Skipland"! 73.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by K5MO on September 16, 2008
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"I'm glad it was mentioned, there was all too much intentional interference by the contesters"
You know it was intentional?
How?
I know of NO contester who would waste time trying to QRM someone, while in the heat of a contest, to say nothing of not wanting to QRM another ham.
John K5MO
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KU4UV on September 16, 2008
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Did you get the callsign of the offending station and maybe record the fact that he was QRM'ing emergency or health and welfare traffic? I think I recall that the FCC regulations state that emergency comms take precedence over "CQ Contest."
KU4UV
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 16, 2008
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I still smell a skunk here. Or, sour grapes from some net guy, wanting a clear freq 5kc up and down..
Violating the pt 97 rules is inexcusable to say the least, and just plain ignorant to say the most.
but, again, its ONE guy. How about the dozens of hicks on 75 SSB, that cuss, and what ever you can imagine nastyness, every eveing? They are also in violation of PT 97, but, alas, nobody ever posts about these vermin. BUT, ONE contester screws up, and all of the sudden, they want his head on a stick. Sorry boys, that doesn't work.
What he did is worng. YES. But judging tens of thousands of contesters on one guy? Nonesense. Thats like me judging tens of thousands of ragchewers via the lowlifes found on 75 SSB every night!
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WB2WIK on September 16, 2008
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>Contest Versus Ike? Reply
by WA6L on September 16, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Wow -- you ran into a bad operator. What are the odds of that?
So now, because this bad operator was in a contest, all contesters are at fault.
Because all contesters are at fault, it shows that there is a pervasive "me first" attitude in the country.
I don't know which is worse. Someone posting this nonsense or me reading it.<
::You reading it wins. A prize is in the mail. Check your mailbox and the arrival of Ed McMahon, he's not busy anyway.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WN9HJW on September 16, 2008
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>> I still smell a skunk here. Or, sour grapes from some net guy, wanting a clear freq 5kc up and down.. <<
Or maybe even 10 kHz on either side, like a recent post in QRZ.com demanded.
If there was anything at all legitimate about the complaint, it seems to me that it would be more appropriate and useful to file a complaint with the FCC with callsigns, dates and times, and supporting statements from witnesses. Get it on record.
Posting a nonspecific whiney contester-bash in eHam isn't really a very effective enforcement approach. It's just another troll. In my opinion.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 16, 2008
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"Posting a nonspecific whiney contester-bash in eHam isn't really a very effective enforcement approach. It's just another troll. In my opinion"
I agree...And I am a contester. I'd at least talk to the guy, and if he was ignorant, he'd be tar and feathered in the contest community.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by N0AH on September 16, 2008
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I find your story hard to believe and worse yet you choose a disaster to push forth your obvious position to support dinosour nets. Dork.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by NB3O on September 16, 2008
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Hey, it might not have been a contester after all...just one of the 14.275 guys being chased up the band from all the other activity...
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WA4DOU on September 16, 2008
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I'm really pleased to see that so many level heads prevailed in this thread. This is hardly a matter for FCC notification. That should be reserved for really serious infractions.
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RE: Abuse, if any, dones not rule out proper use.
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by PLANKEYE on September 16, 2008
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AI2A RAY:
Who benefits by plastering this one-sided anecdotal account on eHam.net? Isn't it obvious that it provides an opportunity for all the contest haters to vent their pent up hostilities? Where are the details? Was this alleged interrupter a foreign station that did not know what was going on? Did it really happen exactly this way? Who knows?
What kind of lopsided posts are you going to see when a simple lament, lacking details, is put up without a comment from the opposing party?
Whatever the intentions, this article promotes division, gives opportunity to unreasonable detractors of contests, and does not promote the amateur service and all the good that really is accomplished by it including contests and emcomm.
________________________________________
PLANKEYE:
OK check this out. I'll use my boy Ray here as an example.
THIS IS RAY MULLINS:
Who benefits by plastering this BLAH BLAH BLAH.
THIS IS RAY MULLINS:
Isn't it obvious that it provides an opportunity for the contest haters BLAH BLAH BLAH.
THIS IS RAY MULLINS:
What kind of lopsided posts are you going to see BLAH BLAH BLAH.
_______
Contesters have no respect for goodness sake. How long does it take you people to figure that out?
Look at Uncle Ray above. Heck he is like a Ferris Wheel with no respect either. WIK's tellin him stuff but it's mostly Ray I think.
OK, Here's a contest for ya.
My boy uncle Ray, WIK, and whoever, compete for who can say some thing nice on this website the most times. Without talking down to people and making things up!!!!
GO!!!!
PLANKEYE
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RE: Abuse, if any, dones not rule out proper use.
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by PLANKEYE on September 16, 2008
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For those who really don't know, those very few:
Eham.net is a favorite corner hangout for those mentally deranged hams and pseudo-hams with handles who are of the gloom and doom, self-hating ham, ARRL basher types. You see them them here quite often. They try to put a chill on any positive article. They gather to commiserate among fellow nuts likewise looking for an audience. They don't like the light of day shining on their activity. If you read my frequent posts you know that I am a cheerful, positive, forward looking ham that is confident in the future of ham radio, and recognizes the fine accomplishments of the ARRL.
Everytime I see one of these silly gloom and doom posts, I like to remind those who go to eHam.net that this place is not the exclusive hangout of these whackos. Oh, they can try to depict my views as extreme, and I enjoy the joke, because nothing could be more extreme than their always negative comments.
No one can argue about my position that AMATEUR RADIO IS AND REMAINS WHAT YOU MAKE IT FOR YOURSELF.
So, if you don't like what I post, and you like what they post, skip over what I write here, and read and enjoy what your pals put here. Ham radio has a great past, a great present, and a great future.
Ray Mullin
AI2IA
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RE: Abuse, if any, dones not rule out proper use.
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by K6CRC on September 16, 2008
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Every time someone starts a controversial thread, people get fired up, and dive in with their opinions. eHam gets more page views, and the site is more valuable to advertisers. Why would anyone edit out this stuff?
An just maybe, there is a user click through on one of the ads, and eHam gets another dime.
It is like the Supermarket tabloids. The weirder the better chance that little old lady buys the paper. The better chance your ad on page 3 will be seen. Guess what the most profitable newspaper in the country is?
OK, so let's see, what hot button haven't we pushed in a while, Hmm, no-code? CBers? contests? Those should generate a bunch of money...
I have no problems with this, as eHam is a good resource for the hobby and deserves to make a buck. But, this isn't QST, it is the wild west of the Internet.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE7UXE on September 16, 2008
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OK. As countless others have said here this is a no brainer.
Maybe some of the old-timers should stop obsessing about code and look at a few questions on the CURRENT rechnician exam.
T1A10 (B) [97.3(A)(23)]
What is a transmission called that disturbs other communications?
A. Interrupted CW
B. Harmful interference
C. Transponder signals
D. Unidentified transmissions
~~
T3A01 (B)
Which of the following should you do when selecting a frequency on which to transmit?
A. Call CQ to see if anyone is listening
B. Listen to determine if the frequency is busy
C. Transmit on a frequency that allows your signals to be heard
D. Check for maximum power output
T3D04 (B)
What is the proper course of action if you unintentionally interfere with another station?
A. Rotate your antenna slightly
B. Properly identify your station and move to a different
frequency
C. Increase power
D. Change antenna polarization
T3D05(C) [97.101(d)]
When may you deliberately interfere with another station's communications?
A. Only if the station is operating illegally
B. Only if the station begins transmitting on a frequency you are
using
C. Never
D. You may cause deliberate interference because it can't be
helped during crowded band conditions
A litle review never hurt anyone. The real deal is that the guy interrupting the Maritime net should have politely moved. Contest or not. He should have done it because:
The rules say he should.
He was only calling CQ. This was not an important communication.
There was something important going on on the frequency.
Spare me the barracks lawyers. He was fooling around and the original poster was doing an important service on the tiny little portion of a big band that he wanted to use.
The guy that interrupted him is a jerk. No other term for it. He gives us all a bad name.
News flash. If we want to maintain our bandwidth for the future the fact that we want to have a contest will not carry much weight. The fact that we can help people contact their families in a time of emergency....Will.
So shame on the contester who made such a fool of himself. He obviously doesn't care much about the amateur service. And. He would probably flunk the technician exam. No matter how fast his code speed is.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N0MUD on September 16, 2008
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Yup I listened to 20 meters over the whole weekend as I was running a Special Event Station with a special call K0a and there was a couple of times that I know I spoke with one of the operaters on 14.300. He put out a call for any maritime stations and got no response so I called him and we spoke for quite a few minutes and then I told him it was time to QSY so I left him to his job and went on to mine. Myself and other operators all went up and down the band, mostly we stayed away from 14.300 but looking at the log I did see others spoke with the Maritime operators but we kept the QSO short and with breaks between keying up in case someone needed the freq. It was a long and fun weekend even with rain in Colorado. We made good contacts including Austria and Germany. I tried to contact Mexico but he was more interested in contacting the state of IL. than Colorado, oh well. We all had fun and thats what ham radio is all about, having fun.
73s Mike, N0mud
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by W4LGH on September 17, 2008
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You know, there is ALWAYS one in every crowd! I actually heard this, as I monitor 14.300 all the time. I think the MMN is a super service and does many good things.
What this guy did was wrong, no doubt about it, but you can NOT judge an entire service over one idiot. You know they kept saying we (the amateur service) needed more numbers. Yes we needed more people in the hobby, but we needed good people. Just adding shear numbers did NOT help us at all, in fact it could go the other way.
However, I think Amateur Radio is still a Great Hobby, and offers some good services. What that guy did was very wrong, and self centered, but that does not reflect everyone out there. Best to probably just forget about it and move on. It may have been your first bad experience, but I bet it won't be the last! However , how many GOOD experiences have you had?
73 de W4LGH - ALan
http://www.w4lgh.com
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WN9HJW on September 17, 2008
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>> I actually heard this, as I monitor 14.300 all the time. <<
Good. An independent witness.
So you must have at least written down the callsign of the egregious offender and will be filing a complaint to the FCC? We certainly can't let someone do that and get away with, can we?
At least tell us what country the offender was from and if from the USA, what was his license class?
If you don't post this information or file a complaint, then can you explain why you are protecting a malicious interferer?
And since the original poster never answered the question about whether the QRM was on frequency or some kHz off, you can tell us?
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by NO6L on September 17, 2008
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Ok, I'm not saying the author is being disingenuous for a fact, but:
1. If someone QRMs during priority traffic it's your duty to report if a callsign can be acquired. Did you report?
2. In order for him to contest, he had to transmit a call. What is it? What's his name?
3. Were there witnesses? What are their call/s?
4. If you are an emcomm net manager, would it not be wise to run a tape during all emcomm traffic? This gives you a backup source if you loose contact with the station sending traffic and you need info resent. It can also be used as proof of intentional interference to build a case upon. Is there a tape? Was it or a copy sent to the authorities?
None of these questions were answered to the affirmative in the "article" or in the authors comments. If they were, this article should never have been submitted. Until they are, I'm sorry, but I'd say it sounds like a hoax event to stir up condescension towards contesters. And if it's a true event, "Two wrongs don't make a right". And if it's a hoax, what of the "Little boy who cried wolf".
As for me, I'm not interested in contesting. Someday maybe, but not now. All I ask is that you're considerate in the process and we'll get along fine.
73, Good Signals and "Good Luck" if you enjoy contesting.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KF4HR on September 17, 2008
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Ok, I'm not saying the author is being disingenuous for a fact, but:
1. If someone QRMs during priority traffic it's your duty to report if a callsign can be acquired. Did you report?
2. In order for him to contest, he had to transmit a call. What is it? What's his name?
3. Were there witnesses? What are their call/s?
I would imagine anyone trying to pass or receive emergency traffic during a contest is more than plenty busy enough. They probably wouldn't have time to change their priorities, stop and start logging call sign(s) that may be causing interference. But even if they did, and they had witnesses, would anything happen? Get real.
Ignore this issue if you want folks, but it's still a potentially dangerous issue. I believe a small emergency frequency window (for each band), is the answer. I'm writing the ARRL and FCC with my suggestions. I encourage others to do the same.
KF4HR
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WA2DTW on September 17, 2008
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Any "emergency frequency window" could be a channel that would be activated only in the case of an emergency, and would otherwise be available for "normal amateur use". That would be fine.
If it were always reserved for emergency traffic, then it would subtract from frequencies available. I would be opposed to that.
Another possibility would have frequencies outside of the amateur band (similar to Mars) for emergency use only.
73
Steve WA2dtw
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE4ZHN on September 17, 2008
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I seldom work 20 meters but this is not unusual. Im not anti contest, just anti rude contest operator. Some hams get pleasure from repeating their call sign and 5-9 a thousand times in a weekend. More power to them. It just seems like every time theres a major contest many rude ones just trample the bands like a stampede of buffalo with no regard for others. Thats not a rant its a fact. Yes, on the other side of the coin you have nets who think they own their frequency of choice and go out of their way to qrm the contesters as well. Two wrongs dont make a right.
Besides, isnt the 60 meter band supposed to be for emergency use? Why are so many old timers so anal about using this band? Yes, its limited but the propagation is great and with a decent radio and a good antenna you could work all the EMCOM traffic you want unmolested by contesters. Also, was the NCO's vfo broken? Was his mode selector switch broken? Worst case how hard would it have been to go to LSB to get the message through? Im not knocking the Maritime net because they do their thing and bother nobody but they dont own 14.300 either. Too many amateurs are afraid to use their vfo or move around a bit to work around qrm these days. Its as if some are crystal controlled and feel they would die if they dared to move the dial a fraction of a khz. Hello! Its not 1935 anymore. Every rig made in the past 20 years has a real stable PLL type vfo built in it that wont drift half the band in one transmission.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by AI2IA on September 17, 2008
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AMATEUR RADIO WORKS JUST FINE AS IT IS. LETS KEEP IT AS SIMPLE AND FREE OF RESTRICTIONS AS POSSIBLE. ATTEMPTS TO ELIMINATE ALL ABUSE ARE FUTILE AT BEST, AND DESTRUCTIVE AT WORST.
DON'T RISE TO THE BAIT OF PROVOCATIONS. DON'T BE DIVISIVE. CONTEST HAMS, RAG CHEWERS, ETC., WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. IGNORE THE TROLLS, THE BASHERS, THE SNOBS, THE NAYSAYERS, THE GLOOM AND DOOM HAMS.
I WILL SAY IT YET AGAIN: AMATEUR RADIO IS WHAT EACH OF US MAKES IT FOR HIMSELF. NO ONE HAS AN EXCUSE.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KC2RGW on September 17, 2008
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""I'm glad it was mentioned, there was all too much intentional interference by the contesters"
You know it was intentional?
How?
"
Because all active hams would have received at least one of the pile of notices that I got announcing the coordinated hurricane emergency net frequencies. 14.325 being one of a handful.
If contesters are the amazing operators people are suggesting, setting up 1kHz on either side of that frequency with a bunch of open space above and below it at the time would distill down to intentional QRM in my book. Any skilled op would know that 1kHz is not enough space.
As to the guys who say a net should move when a contester encroaches on them....that's just demented.
It's one thing to start a net on top of people...that is rude and shouldn't happen, but moving a net just because a contester fires up on top of them...no way, not on my watch.
We're talking about established nets handling important and potentially critical traffic that were well published and/or well established and still being intentionally encroached upon for someone's wall plaque.
If these nets sit all day taking roll call to answer a single distress call in six months, they still serve a far more important purpose than someone's DXCC plaque fulfillment.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE4ZHN on September 17, 2008
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Chris, in principle your right. However, standing your ground and butting heads with an idiot wont get the message through. The biggest problem seems to be that when theres a major contest, the FCC and the league turn a blind eye to the rules and anything goes. Why is it fine to break every rule in part 97 when its a contest weekend, but not ok any other time?
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KZ1A on September 17, 2008
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Wow.....As a "contester" I am embarassed to hear of such a bone headed thing. If true, why didn't you let us know his callsign, so I can avoid working him during a contest.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N4JTE on September 17, 2008
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Another NON ARTICLE that should have been directed to the SPEAK OUT forum.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WB2WIK on September 17, 2008
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>RE: Contest Versus Ike? Reply
by KE4ZHN on September 17, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Chris, in principle your right. However, standing your ground and butting heads with an idiot wont get the message through. The biggest problem seems to be that when theres a major contest, the FCC and the league turn a blind eye to the rules and anything goes. Why is it fine to break every rule in part 97 when its a contest weekend, but not ok any other time?<
::If you're really active on the bands, you know the ARS is very self-policing and very rarely does the FCC intervene in routine conflicts. The best thing to do if a contester QRMs a net is move the net. It's the quick and efficient solution, and good practice for net control and all participants. If Mohammad won't come to the mountain, take the mountain to Mohammad.
Much easier and certainly more productive than wasting precious time arguing with a jerk on the air or off.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N8NSN on September 17, 2008
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KB2DHG says: "Please before you call CQ, PLEASE, PLEASE ask first, if the frequency is in use... Take your time and listen first..."
That is the whole thing in a nut shell. That is where a LOT (not all, as to not speak in generalizations) of operators (new and seasoned) fail. That is where a LOT of operators, in any mode, just fail...
BACK TO THE BACK OF THE CLASSROOM FOR YOU!
NEXT TIME YOU DO THAT IT WILL BE THE RULER ON THE KNUCKLES ! ! !
It's the, "wait several seconds and go as far as to ask again, "is the frequency in use"... You get the point & you know who you are... muuuuahhhahahaha
On the Article. Seems to me that speaking in "generalizations" or "lumping the whole lot into one statement" can cause a LOT of feelings to get trifled with.
Just like asking if the frequency is in use... Same goes for the adage, "Think before you speak".
Reread what you have come up with, before you hit the proverbial "send" key. Take the perspective of the possible "lumped individuals" you are centering in your cross hairs and ask your self; "If the shoe were on the other foot..." Would you take offense if someone was on here griping about "nets"... Ha, that's funny; Do I recall a "net lamb basting" on here just a few short days ago.
For my own perspective on this situation at hand; I think the "OP" you encountered, on your scheduled time, was a real LID in the true sense of the term. If he/she really did "argue" that their station had the right to use the frequency, in the given situation you have portrayed; One may be tempted to go as far as beckoning him/her with several choice expletives instead of his/her given name or call. Chances are, if he/she indeed conducts him/her self, regularly, in the manner you described; He/She is probably quite used to others hailing them with the use of expletives.
SHARING THE LOVE,
jimmie
Now if I could only practice what I preach...
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N8NSN on September 17, 2008
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OK OK remove all the "/she" terms I used
That little tid bit (the original article) just sort of sounded like a generalized poke at the contest 'ers.
Now, off to find something fun to do...
:D :D :D
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You have to be joking; Right?
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by N8NSN on September 17, 2008
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From our good nature fellow, bored, e-ham forum following and surely every ones friend..."PLANKEYE"
PLANKEYE SAYS,
"If you read my frequent posts you know that I am a cheerful, positive, forward looking ham that is confident in the future of ham radio, and recognizes the fine accomplishments of the ARRL"
My reply to that would be...
You were just saying all that in some sort of tongue in cheek fashion... Right?
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by K1DA on September 17, 2008
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1. If workable contest sub -bands were to be established I would stay out of them during contests
and take my chances elsewhere. I don't have a problem with their needing a place to contest. I would expect the contesters to stay INSIDE the sub bands.
2. The maritime net, for example, creates more good will for amateur radio in half an hour than these "it's MINE if I get there first" examples of spoiled brattism do IN THEIR ENTIRE AMATEUR CAREER.
Without that good will we'd be gone. That's what irks me about the "me first" creeps. They all think they are "entitled" to the harvest but didn't plant the crop. Perish the thought they would ever DO any public service.. after all THEY are entitled.
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RE: Abuse, if any, dones not rule out proper use.
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by PLANKEYE on September 17, 2008
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For those who really don't know, those very few:
Eham.net is a favorite corner hangout for those mentally deranged hams and pseudo-hams with handles who are of the gloom and doom, self-hating ham, ARRL basher types. You see them them here quite often. They try to put a chill on any positive article. They gather to commiserate among fellow nuts likewise looking for an audience. They don't like the light of day shining on their activity. If you read my frequent posts you know that I am a cheerful, positive, forward looking ham that is confident in the future of ham radio, and recognizes the fine accomplishments of the ARRL.
Everytime I see one of these silly gloom and doom posts, I like to remind those who go to eHam.net that this place is not the exclusive hangout of these whackos. Oh, they can try to depict my views as extreme, and I enjoy the joke, because nothing could be more extreme than their always negative comments.
No one can argue about my position that AMATEUR RADIO IS AND REMAINS WHAT YOU MAKE IT FOR YOURSELF.
So, if you don't like what I post, and you like what they post, skip over what I write here, and read and enjoy what your pals put here. Ham radio has a great past, a great present, and a great future.
PLANKEYE
___________________________________________________
PLANKEYE:
I did say GO!!! right?
Quit tearing out the pages in that book Uncle Ray.
And Steven, you need to just GET IN THAT HUG LINE RIGHT NOW!!
PLANKEYE
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N6HPX on September 17, 2008
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Since I usually carry a tape recorder in the shack when I work my dx or chat or maritime or whatever then if I hear a person doing this I would forward the tape to the FCC and let them sort it out with this guy. Since he did interfere with you. Even if its a net or some other item it was a health and welfare or priority program.
73's from Hawaii
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 17, 2008
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"I WILL SAY IT YET AGAIN: AMATEUR RADIO IS WHAT EACH OF US MAKES IT FOR HIMSELF. NO ONE HAS AN EXCUSE"
Amen, Ray! Well said, my friend!
BTW, thanks for the QSL!
73-Chuck KI9A
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by SCUBA on September 17, 2008
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Thanks, Ira.
Why can't a contest manager postpone or cancel a contest during periods of emergency?
Why should I dare suggest this?
During Hurricane Gustav, I was working in BTR, vic, Florida Ave and 15th St before, during and after the hurricane. We had to come inside and move away from the entrances when wind went up to 100 mph. Damage was severe and widespread, no power (but fortunately we were on generators), impaired phones, cell service continued but relied on generators. Power outtages were prolonged. BTR citizens were ill prepared.
It would seem that priority of communications resources should be made available to the millions affected.
So, why can't or why won't contest managers, given the day and time of anticipated hurricane landfall, cancel or postpone the contest?
73,
Jack
[reaching for flame-retardant PPE]
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by AB7E on September 17, 2008
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SCUBA/Jack,
I don't see the point of that. Emergency communications are already supposed to take precedence over non-emergency activities, and I saw several reflector postings (from contest sponsors) prior to last weekend urging contesters to stay away from the normal emergency net frequencies. Anyone who interfered with a net was either clueless or an outlaw, and I'll bet there were extremely few instances of it (I personally didn't hear any at all). How many did you hear? There was plenty of room for everyone on the bands last weekend. The nets I monitored for quite some time suffered from QRN and erratic propagation, but not QRM.
Canceling any activity on the chance that someone will be a jerk would pretty much rule out any scheduled event.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KB7RHI on September 17, 2008
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Hi,
I also was listening this last weekend and was surprised that people were contesting during a disaster. I hope the contest crowd will talk about this and revisit contesting during disasters.
Mark
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE4ZHN on September 17, 2008
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by WB2WIK on September 17, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>RE: Contest Versus Ike? Reply
by KE4ZHN on September 17, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Chris, in principle your right. However, standing your ground and butting heads with an idiot wont get the message through. The biggest problem seems to be that when theres a major contest, the FCC and the league turn a blind eye to the rules and anything goes. Why is it fine to break every rule in part 97 when its a contest weekend, but not ok any other time?<
::If you're really active on the bands, you know the ARS is very self-policing and very rarely does the FCC intervene in routine conflicts. The best thing to do if a contester QRMs a net is move the net. It's the quick and efficient solution, and good practice for net control and all participants. If Mohammad won't come to the mountain, take the mountain to Mohammad.
Much easier and certainly more productive than wasting precious time arguing with a jerk on the air or off.
WB2WIK/6
There must be an echo on this web site. I could have sworn I posted the same thing a couple up the ladder. One could also suggest that it would be good practice for the contester not to qrm the net in the first place no?
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 18, 2008
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So, you guys want to cancel a contest because ONE ( 1 ) guy decided to fire up over a net, that, BTW, wasn't really passing EMERGANCY traffic, just normal H & W traffic??
Lets take this one step further. Lets cancel ALL Ham radio activities during disasters, none-emergancy nets, ragchewing, DXing...makes sense, right?
OK?
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WN9HJW on September 18, 2008
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Yes. Cancel everything during emergencies just on the chance that one guy might call "CQ Test" within 10 kHz of a net where people are ragchewing about hurricanes.
And since there's bound to be a disaster going on somewhere at any given time, and because of skip phenomena not everyone can hear everyone else, it would be best to cancel all of ham radio all of the time to avoid even the remotest possibility of HF not being full-quieting.
Low-down dirty contesters and ragchewers and DXers. How dare they destroy the hobby.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N2KFC on September 18, 2008
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Hello,
Give to us Callsign of this "contest jerk" ...
73!
SP2GGZ,N2KFC,YB1AQV,
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by N4FOZ on September 18, 2008
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I am a big Maritime Mobile Service Net listener, and try for everyday.
I heard the disruptions and the contesters. It was appalling considering people's lives were at stake.
For all persons who do not boat in the ocean:
"At the water's edge, all civilization ends. Beyond that point, we become part of the food chain, and not always at the top."
The people who do rely on the MMSN already know.
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by WB8YYY on September 18, 2008
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Definitely we should acknowledge the problem. Contests do not readily share spectrum with other uses, and coexistence with emergency communications deserves a responsible examination.
Given that amateur radio must fulfill its emergency communications role, I conclude that contesting cannot use 100% of the available spectrum in bands that are needed for emergency communications. We have band plans for 'normal operation' - I believe that a small amount of SSB spectrum should be clear of contesting operation. On 20m this could be as little as 25 kHz and satisfy the need in all but the largest of disaster events.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N6HPX on September 18, 2008
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For many out here its much more than a Hobby its also there connection in realife emergencies where cellphones and other stuff wont work. I am in Hawaii and we lose the signals to cellphone 25 miles off the coast.
The problem is the interference and that was uncalled for in this case. As I mentioned elsewhere I would have recorded it and sent it to the FCC to sort it out.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N2KFC on September 18, 2008
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Everybody with the proper permit has the right to operate Ham Bands in Contest or out of Contest.
Main problem is that most of contesters do not respect basic law of Radiocommunication-FREQUENCY in USE!!!
73!
SP2GGZ,N2KFC,YB1AQV,
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by AB7E on September 18, 2008
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N2KFC: "Main problem is that most of contesters do not respect basic law of Radiocommunication-FREQUENCY in USE!!! "
"Most contesters" is a ridiculous generalization. Contests by far generate the most activity while they are going on, often with literally thousands of participants. I'd bet that the percentage of contesters who don't first check the frequency or respect the rights of somebody already there is no worse for contesters than it is for DXers or even nets themselves. What percentage of DXers jump to the split frequency of a pileup without checking it before transmitting there? What percentage of nets begin on time on frequency without any consideration of who might be there first?
Contesters also generally use narrow filters and are used to maintaining effective communication in close proximity to other stations. Perceived interference in the mind of a net operator using a 3KHz filter might be totally different than for a contester who thinks he has left an adequate buffer.
Personally, I think it would be healthy if the majority of the hams participating in the emergency and health/welfare nets were also decent contesters. I repeatedly heard some horrible communications skills on the Ike nets ... inability to speak crisply, overlapping transmissions, inability to mentally capture more than one piece of data per transmission resulting in constant repeats. Some of it was just awful.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by K4LVR on September 18, 2008
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Agreed, there are contesters that are poor ops. But there are bad ops everywhere as well, not just in the ranks of contesters.
I try to be aware of what is around me, however, one of the keys to good contest performance is receiver selectivity and sensitivity. In the heat of battle, my receiver is rather narrow by necessity...
An example: While calling CQ Contest on 7.190.5 on 40 meters (after asking multiple times if the Frequency is in use) with my 2.1kHz wide 100w signal during the Florida QSO Party last year, I got a call from a gent with an S-7 signal who tells me that I have my amplifier misadjusted as I am splattering all over the Century Club "Worked All States" net below me.
On my 2.1kHz filter, I did not hear a thing below me from this net, and I DID ask if the Freq was in use multiple times.
After explaining to him that I was running 100w and didnt have an amp on line, I happened to ask what bandwidth of filter he had inline. He didnt know what I was talking about.
So, to help him figure it out, I asked what kind of rig he was using. Well, he was using "a brand new IC-718 with a MFJ G5RV antenna".
I had the audacity to suggest the problem might be on his end... I then got a rather obsecenity laced dressing down about my "intentional interference" to this net.
He didnt know where the front end filter selector was for his rig, and to this day I dont know if he even had a narrow filter or knew how to use one.
After complaining to the net manager, I did get an email appologizing for his member's indiscretion.
The gate swings both ways. :)
-lu-
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Contest Versus Ike? They did it again!
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by AI2IA on September 18, 2008
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If you have read down this long and absurd thread, do you see now what this was all about? Do you see what the purpose really was?
Ressurect the old, old arguments. Lure in the opposing parties. Generate long threads. Boost participation.
Looks good for buyers of ad space.
When are we going to have one on the need to bring back Morse Code testing?
Or, how about one on the need to put tough technology questions back on the exams to prevent "out of the box" hams?
Contention generates sales. Peace and harmony is boring. Sales drop, too!
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RE: Contest Versus Ike? They did it again!
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by AA5JG on September 18, 2008
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"When are we going to have one on the need to bring back Morse Code testing?"
Great idea! I think we should bring back Morse Code testing.
73s John AA5JG
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by NN3W on September 19, 2008
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Again, how about the callsign of the "offender"? Its been requested numerous times, and no one is fessing up...
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by WI7B on September 19, 2008
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"I was actually conducting emergency communications the station said, he could hear me..."
eHam is not the forum for this, FCC enforcement is the forum for violaiton of Part 97.101:
97.3
(22) Harmful interference. Interference
which endangers the functioning of a
radionavigation service or of other
safety services or seriously degrades,
obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a
radiocommunication service operating
in accordance with the Radio Regulations.
97.101
(d) No amateur operator shall willfully
or maliciously interfere with or
cause interference to any radio communication
or signal.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 19, 2008
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"RAY
SETTLE DOWN!! "
Well, at least some of us have the nuts to use our calls & names....
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by 5R8GQ on September 19, 2008
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AB7E Said:
"Personally, I think it would be healthy if the majority of the hams participating in the emergency and health/welfare nets were also decent contesters."
I agree. It might help them improve their communications skills. Anyone can pass traffic on an uncrowded frequency.
Some folks here have whined that "The contesters think they own the frequencies! blah, blah, blah."
Far, far more often it is the NETS who think THEY own a frequency. When I have been running a freq for 45 minutes and the "Geriatric Colon Heath Net" comes up and tells me I have to move, why should I? THEY should move, as per the rules. Have you ever, EVER heard of a Net moving? Have you ever even heard a Net controller come up and call QRL? before he fires up the Net? That'll be the day.
Oh yeah.....The "phone patch" bit in this "article" DOES smell fishy! If the local land lines are up, why does this guy need a phone patch to get help for his so called "injured family members"? An ambulance from another state?
Even the title of this article is a troll; "Contest Versus Ike?". Jeesh.....
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by N5JFJ on September 20, 2008
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QUOTE:
Oh yeah.....The "phone patch" bit in this "article" DOES smell fishy! If the local land lines are up, why does this guy need a phone patch to get help for his so called "injured family members"? An ambulance from another state?
Even the title of this article is a troll; "Contest Versus Ike?". Jeesh.....
I can "attempt" to explain that one for you if you can take a moment to imagine what things were like down here, at Ground ZERO!!
Imagine (if you will kindly try) that Hurricane Ike has come ashore, as it did (totally in the Dark of night) with a 10Ft to 15 Ft Tidal surge WALL OF WATER, and it has wasted most everything around you, washing it right off the face of the earth! Driven by about 100+ MPH winds! Truly - you witness the sounds of things cracking, popping, and exploding and the winds make a noise UNLIKE anything you have ever heard before, in your innocent life!
Now --- imagine that one of your Children, or your wife, was cut by a peice of something falling and truly needs Medical attention! There are NO land lines, the Cell towers are either GONE or dead or OVERLOADED!
BUT WAIT...My automobile has an HF Rig out there in it, and I CAN use this to ASK someone-anyone, for HELP!
You make contact with someone, who uses their own PHONE PATCH - who has a land line, and they connect you to someone in your area that can help YOU, GET HELP!
You make your own choice honestly, silently...to yourself. Is it at that very moment he has connected you to help, that someone comes over your signal calling CQ CONTEST OR A NET - OR A RAGCHEW - is that what you - would appreciate happening, at that moment???
I am located... about 90 Miles from this GROUND ZERO!
see the link below to understand what happened this community
http://www.weatherbonk.com/weather/camDetail.jsp?id=cam_1221407268442
Honestly...It doesn't matter if it is a Tornado, a Hurricane, or a Family out sailing on the sea, that needs someone to help them if they have experienced a life threatening situation. I will continue to believe that each of us in our heart will come to our neighbor and HELP - ANY WAY - WE CAN!
We (at 90 Miles away) were BLESSED that even though we lost some power, phones, our Trees, we were still spared our Lives!
We could sit our here and bicker all day about a Contest OR net or a Ragchew. BUT when it comes right down to the TRUTH neighbor and you called me for HELP I am still going to TRY - TO HELP YOU.
I PRAY, as a nation that far and wide...WE ALL - COME TOGETHER to do whatever we can, as simple as it may be...To help all of these folks, many who lost their roof over their head, and experienced death!
In an EMERGENCY???????????
THAT is TOP PRIORITY.
And thank you to those who give so many hours of their time to stand-by and listen...to help others.
God Bless "ALL"...In JESUS name.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by K5WMH on September 20, 2008
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The first comment I have is, just when did the FCC start doing world enforcement? Everyone keeps bring up Part 97. Come on let’s get real here. This was a WAE contest and chances that it may have been a station outside of the US, is pretty darn good.
During the earthquakes in China, it was put out what frequencies they where using for emergency commutations, and over and over again on DX summit, it was posted to keep them free for this use. They weren’t, countless times I heard stations calling on them. Funny thing is this was all going on during the week, no contest going on. So what does that tell you!
I do think that emergency commutations is very important during any type of disaster and as Hams we should help in anyway we can.
Mark
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KQ6YV on September 20, 2008
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Maybe if it took a little more than a cereal box top and 12 bucks to get on HF, things might be different.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by PLANKEYE on September 20, 2008
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PLANKEYE:
RAY
SETTLE DOWN!!
_______________________________________________
KI9A POSTED HIS.
Well, at least some of us have the nuts to use our calls & names....
___________
PLANKEYE:
Good for you Sir.
Tell Uncle Ray he owes me breakfast, "he's buyin though".
Your right about the nuts part! Alot of these guys are nuts.
Want some examples?
PLANKEYE
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 20, 2008
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Like I said, some of us are men, and some are kids ( or little old ladies). The men tend not hide behind a keyboard.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE5DFR on September 20, 2008
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I posted a comment about the contesters (more than one) operating too close to a hurricane net and also on a hurricane frequency. I was roasted for bad mouthing the contesters. I have not gone back to that thread.
We had evacuated my elderly in-laws to near Austin and returned home on Sunday. On the previous thread I was told if I wanted news of the storm to watch CNN. I wanted highway information and I could not get anything from the state DPS as it was a weekend and the phone system was not taking calls except through 911. It was not an emergency of the 911 nature and they had plenty of other calls.
Remember that ONE BAD APPLE can ruin the whole barrel unless you get it out of there.
These few operators were in the "contest mode" and it was contacts at all cost.
I wish that I would have written down the offenders call signs now. Next time I will.
Just show a little consideration for not only your fellow hams, but for any of the people they are trying to help.
Ken
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by 5R8GQ on September 20, 2008
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N5JFJ Said:
"I can "attempt" to explain that one for you if you can take a moment to imagine what things were like down here, at Ground ZERO!!"
"Imagine (if you will kindly try) that Hurricane Ike has come ashore, as it did (totally in the Dark of night) with a 10Ft to 15 Ft Tidal surge WALL OF WATER, and it has wasted most everything around you, washing it right off the face of the earth! Driven by about 100+ MPH winds! Truly - you witness the sounds of things cracking, popping, and exploding and the winds make a noise UNLIKE anything you have ever heard before, in your innocent life!"
>> My innocent life, sir? What do you know of my life?
"Now --- imagine that one of your Children, or your wife, was cut by a peice of something falling and truly needs Medical attention! There are NO land lines, the Cell towers are either GONE or dead or OVERLOADED!"
IMAGINE! IMAGINE! NOW you have hit the "weasel word"
and revealed the fallacy or your diatribe! Definition
of "imagine": To form a mental image of something that is not present or that is NOT THE CASE. (My caps, sorry). The article supposedly described something that actually happened, and you bounce back with a hypothetical scenario.
Oh, I can imagine your imaginary scenario just fine. But what the HELL were you and your CHILDREN and FAMILY doing at "GROUND ZERO" when you had FOUR DAYS NOTICE that the hurricane was coming? Over a MILLION PEOPLE with more than one brain cell evacuated AS THEY WERE TOLD TO DO! By staying you were putting rescue workers in danger because, imagine, (if you will kindly try),that they had better things to do than locate and drag able bodied redneck, inbred, tobacky chawin', UFO spottin', "I ain't leavin' MY home!" IGNORAMUSES out of their double wides!
But alas! In this tale, according to you, the TRUE RETARD is one (1) contester , whose callsign the writer failed to note, (even though he was allegedly, repeatedly calling "CQ Contest").
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N5JFJ on September 21, 2008
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Ken,
"I'LL IMAGINE AGAIN!"
I imagine - that if you make an appointment and kindly go ask your family Doctor for help, carefully explaining to him that you are prone to very Childish fits of RAGE?
I'll imagine that he can and will, most probably perscribe you something to assist you with your condition, and I will also magine that you will "LIVE LONGER" with a much lower blood pressure.
We reside 100 Miles away from where Ike came ashore Ken, but that storm was so large that it affected many good hard working families as it traveled from Texas on upwards to New York.
There sadly was also loss of Life Ken, all across the US because of hurricane Ike! Do you somehow believe (and how did you put it - in your remarks) that these folks probably all lived in "Double Wides" and Chew tobacco Ken??? Do you somehow believe that any of the folks from Florida to Texas on up to New York, somehow deserved... what happened Ken?
If you do believe any of that Ken, then I also "ADVISE YOU" to openly admit those remarks to your family doctor, when you make that all important appointment to get yourself... some "HELP."
The post you submitted, suggested that you did not understand how a "Phone Patch" was being utilized to help that person who needed Emergency assistance.
For all I know you've never even owned a Phone Patch, nor even seen one used. My reply was simply a way to describe a situation, HOW AND WHY the emergency operator would then use it, to help someone even in another state by linking them... TO GET HELP.
I stated (if you go back and re-read) that it does not matter whether it was a Contester, RagChewer, or even a DXer Ken, that in an EMERGENCY that communication needs to be considered -- TOP PRIORITY!--
There are certain times Ken... when things happen that we just can't JUDGE other folks for why they are doing what they choose to do! Such as the fires in California, and folks staying attempting to save what they have, Ken.
There is a couple of things you can decide to do, Ken?
You can get Elected and enact laws, that as you put it, if some folks live in double wide Mobil homes or maybe they chew Tobacco, or maybe they live in the South or California - in fires, Gangs, and Earth Quakes --- YOUR LAWS according to your posted RANT out here - would say they are IGNORANT and don't deserve HELP!
OR
Your can stretch out your hand, and HELP ANYONE that asks you, or calls you without placing some CRITERIA for your own self imposed JUDGEMENT upon them - BEFORE you - would help them!
I find this CHAT with you, very distasteful!
But none the less...Here Ken,
"Here is the other Cheek"
God Bless you, and your Family and Good Luck.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N5JFJ on September 21, 2008
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Mail this to a friend!
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PS Ken:
Sorry - I forgot - to mention it!
Just so you have all the FACTS?
My Wife and I live in a County, that was NOT ISSUED a "MANDATORY EVACUATION ORDER" by the authorities.
None the less - that does not mean that many folks still did not experience damages that were...unforseen!
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 21, 2008
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"But what the HELL were you and your CHILDREN and FAMILY doing at "GROUND ZERO" when you had FOUR DAYS NOTICE that the hurricane was coming? Over a MILLION PEOPLE with more than one brain cell evacuated AS THEY WERE TOLD TO DO! By staying you were putting rescue workers in danger because, imagine, (if you will kindly try),that they had better things to do than locate and drag able bodied redneck, inbred, tobacky chawin', UFO spottin', "I ain't leavin' MY home!" IGNORAMUSES out of their double wides!"
BEAUTIFUL! This what I have been thinking, and I'm sure glad I am not the only one!!!
Bravo!
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KE5DLZ on September 21, 2008
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What a bunch of hypocrites. So many of you are up in arms. You are upset saying the original poster is saying all Contesters are bad because of this one. However, it is OK to call ALL of us TEXANS
"able bodied redneck, inbred, tobacky chawin', UFO spottin', "I ain't leavin' MY home!" IGNORAMUSES out of their double wides!" ......
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 21, 2008
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Oh, God, we dissed a texan! I 'm pretty sure it was meant to relate to ANY goat roper, be it N.O., Texas, or even here near St. Louis, during the big floods. We have these rednecks on TV all the time here...." I ain't leavin' my trailer". Its all of them, not just a texas...why so defensive???
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by N5JFJ on September 21, 2008
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Yeah CHUCK...there's 2 of you... now
Go on...Go take your Meds - too.
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI9A on September 21, 2008
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"Go on...Go take your Meds - too"
Jerry, by looking at your eham profile, I see you a Christian, man of God. Since when does a "good" Christian judge others? Just wondering...
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RE: Contest Versus Ike? They did it again!
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by WB2WIK on September 21, 2008
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>RE: Contest Versus Ike? They did it again! Reply
by AA5JG on September 18, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"When are we going to have one on the need to bring back Morse Code testing?"
Great idea! I think we should bring back Morse Code testing.<
::Me, too. It won't happen, though.
Then again, one never knows for certain. Here in California, it has been possible to get a driver learning permit at 15-1/2 years of age, and a license at 16.
The Legislature is now considering raising those, possibly all the way to 18 years old like it's been in New York all along.
Talk about a huge step in the right direction! "They" said it would never happen, but it looks like it might.
WB2WIK/6
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by KI4MF on September 21, 2008
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Just can't leave this alone. The guy CQing was wrong, period. But, please explain how and when Maritime supports the military? If you mean calling the Coast Guard by telephone and relaying a message from a boat, OK. Health and welfare traffic, OK, but not earth stopping.
Further substantiates the premise that no side of a story is ever 100% correct. You have a net - fine and good, and the boaters get some use out of it.
Hank WB4ROA
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Contest Versus Ike?
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by WS2E on September 26, 2008
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This is Ham Radio today! I seems to me there was less of a problem 20 years ago, although we still had LIDs around, it seems to be a much wider spread problem today. Good operating practices and procedures are not really taught, and it seems neither are manners and etiquette. I remember the Andaman and Nicobar Dxpedition that ceased operating as a dxpedition and went straight to emergency communications after the Tsunami. I'm sure many of you people posting on here feel that they should have kept operating the DXpedition even though many poeple were in need of help. I love the part 97 quotes and interpretations. As one poster mentioned there are "gentlemans agreements" as to dx widows, and calling frequencies. So when we have so much spectrum available to us why do some people feel it's there right to use those frequencies? Ham Radio is a privledge not a right! Grow Up, respect net operations, calling frequencies, SSTV frequencies etc. My advice to stations expierencing the problems, record it. Then you can send along with complaints or post it on the net. My favorite is to use it in presentations as example of poor operating practices.
my last 2 cents: I would rather have 1/2 the spectrum to operate in with more skilled/knowledgable operators over the present conditions. But then radios would be more expensive, and fewer available. heck we might even have to build our own! Wouldn't want that so lets start giving out all licenses so we can save our spectrum, have cheaper radios. Hey lets add 11m that will increase spectrum as well. Wouldn't be much different than 75m, or 2m today. After reading this thread it gives me great pride to be an American amateur radio operator. 73's
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RE: Contest Versus Ike?
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by PLANKEYE on September 27, 2008
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RE: Contest Versus Ike? Reply
by KI9A on September 21, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Go on...Go take your Meds - too"
Jerry, by looking at your eham profile, I see you a Christian, man of God. Since when does a "good" Christian judge others? Just wondering...
K9IA
_________________________________________________
PLANKEYE:
Here is one example of the "nuts" part.
Nice job K9AI.
It's simply about RESPECT fella's.
You all are about as tight as a Brake Spring!!
Relax for God's Sake!!
IT'S JUST A HOBBY!!
PLANKEYE
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