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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!

Alan Applegate (K0BG) on November 30, 2008
View comments about this article!

Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!

So they have to be magical, right?

There is nothing magical about antennas. There is nothing magical about ground planes. There is nothing magical about adjusting an antenna tuner. In fact, there is nothing magical about any part of amateur radio! If there is anything magical, it is in the eyes of the beholder! However, you'd think some things were magical reading the threads herein. My word, where's all of this misinformation come from? Here's a few examples.

What's with all of these references to OFC (off-center fed) dipoles being the epitome of antennas? Every single one of them, no matter how they are fed, result in a mismatch, their use of baluns (no matter their configuration) notwithstanding. This mismatch is so pervasive, no matter the balun type in use, that common mode currents on the fed line are a feature! In fact, in most cases the feed line is the major radiating element! Yet, on-line references about OCF dipoles would have you believe they are the ultimate, magical radiator! They're not!

A G5RV is a decent HF antenna if you except the fact that it was designed to be a three band antenna (20, 40, and 80). What it is not, is an all-band antenna. However, you'd think so by reading some of the threads about them. Just because you can use an antenna tuner to load up some object, thing, chunk of wire, or an G5RV, does not mean, in itself, that it is an efficient all-band, magical antenna!

Grounds! Grounds! Grounds! How many times have you read or heard this? 'I added a ground strap to the antenna (mount?), but the SWR is still to high!' Geez, you think a ground strap was the answer for every single antenna problem ever encountered! I'll agree it is important to DC ground antennas and coaxial lines, for lightning and static protection. However, a ground strap is not a replacement for a ground plane! Unless of course, it's long enough to be a radial, and it isn't the only one. Please note I said ground plane. Perhaps you'd prefer the term image plane, but that's even harder to explain to a neophyte. What it isn't, is a counterpoise! That's a different animal altogether, regardless of the mystifying misuse of the term.

Quarter wave verticals are wonderful antennas (and inexpensive) when properly implemented. Every single one of them requires a decent ground plane. A ground rod, a piece of pipe, a chain link fence, a metal roof, or rain gutter, isn't an adequate ground plane. It is important to remember, a vertical is one half of a dipole, hence the (uncommon) name monopole. The missing half must be a ground plane typically made up of radial wires. The ground plane must be adequate enough to prevent, or limit, common mode currents flowing on the feed line. Not following this rule, will often result in RFI problems, regardless of the SWR reading. Speaking of which...

Viswaritis! I don't know who coined the term, but you'd think about 75% of the amateur population suffered from it! While standing waves are an important consideration in a lot of cases, SWR alone has nothing to do with efficiency, angle of radiation, RFI levels, common mode currents, suitability of purpose, or bandwidth. This isn't magic, it's fact!

Speaking of bandwidth. There is a formula floating around the Internet that goes like this. An antenna's Q (assumedly an antenna system, but that's not given) is equal to 360 times the operating frequency in MHz, divided by the 2:1 VSWR bandwidth in kHz. Again, an antenna's bandwidth is not in any way directly related to the SWR (nor its -3 dB points). It might be an indication perhaps, but one is in no way dependent on the other. That's not magical, that's fact!

Nowadays, almost every manual antenna tuner is a "T" type network. That is, there are two series capacitors. Between them is a shunt inductor. If your antenna tuner falls into this category, then the tuning procedure is always the same. That is to say, the one where the capacitors are at their greatest reactance consistent with a minimum SWR. What's more, depending on the antenna system in use, the lowest SWR indication isn't necessarily the best tune. With that in mind, there is an upcoming article to appear in the February, 2009 issue of QST, written by Eric Nichols. He suggests that an RF ammeter should be used (instead of an SWR indication) to adjust a "T" type network tuner, and he just might be right. I for one am looking forward to it. Let's hope it's not magical!

Here's one magical thought brought home just recently. Resonant antennas are nice to have, because they can be fed with coax (if for no other reason). However, if you want to operate the whole 75/80 meter band, chances are you'll still need a tuner. Some will argue that what should be done is to feed the antenna with ladder line through a good tuner. Good idea most of the time, although in some installations (like mine) that isn't a practical solution. The distracters will argue about the loss differences between coax fed, resonant antennas, with no tuner, versus ladder line fed, non-resonant antennas and requisite tuner. Well, here's a fact that's sure to rankle feathers. The overall loss in an average amateur's installation which uses coax to feed a resonant dipole antenna, versus the exact antenna fed with ladder line and a properly adjusted tuner, is in favor of the latter. While small, it is still a fact. Move off resonance, or increase the distance from the shack to the antenna by two or three times, and the difference really gets astounding. And, I didn't pull this out of a magic hat!

There are a few points to reiterate.

Antennas, feed lines, and networks all follow well-defined parameters. They possess no magical properties, regardless of the faux-pundit palaver to the contrary. When all else fails, pundits always argue that experimentation is good. Well, it isn't if you don't learn anything in the process! For example, you can't make (or assume) one measurement, and apply it to something you didn't measure. The aforementioned Q formula is a typical example.

No matter what antenna you use, or how you feed it, or how you tune it, it is what it is. But when you justify your on-air successes, signal reports, or low SWR readings, to some magic property your antenna possesses, you're fooling only yourself.

 

Alan, KØBG

www.k0bg.com

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KB9RQZ on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
well magic is the cutting edge of science (to parphase Dr Clark)
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N9WB on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan:
A very good article! The more people learn about antenna science, the more informed they would be when they have to make a choice between an antenna that is practical in a given situation and the most efficient antenna design.

Vy 73, Walt N9WB
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N9WB on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan:
A very good article! The more people learn about antenna science, the more informed they would be when they have to make a choice between an antenna that is practical in a given situation and the most efficient antenna design.

Vy 73, Walt N9WB
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by G8UBJ on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Whether you buy or build your antennas I categorise hams into one of four groups -
1 - Put up and shut up
2 - Put up and bitch
3 - Put up and tinker
4 - Builders and testers

Obviously there are no hard and fast rules as some hams drift between these.. I'm think i'm more of a 3 but aspire to 4 which requires a bit more grey matter than I possess. Maybe its only some of the number fours who can explain it all. Unfortunately we mostly hear from the twos.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by G8UBJ on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
And speaking of ladder line this made me think - http://www.athensarc.org/ladder.asp
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K2WH on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Terrible article. Can't even be called an article, just the spewing of myths and heresay by an individual without a clue of how radio works.

IT'S ALL MAGIC, and how dare you suggest it isn't.

Next you'll be telling everyone Santa, and the Easter bunny aren't real. Stop this spreading of false information, lies and innuendo. Think of the kids. Goodness, to think ham radio has come down to this.

K2WH
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WA8MEA on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Amen, Alan!!

'Bout time someone laid it on the line!

Another way of adding length to your dipoles/inverted vees is to use jumper wires. Just clip to the end of the dipole and often times it will give a good enough SWR to work the bottom bands of 40 and 80.

There are still some things that are "magical." I'm always amazed out how antennas react to:

Ice on them or when on the ground....
Wet snow on them or when on the ground....
After a rainstorm soaks the ground....

While we're at it, can someone explain to me how this nonsense got started that you can't run full legal power through thinner wire antennas? (In other words, it is claimed that the wire will disintegrate like a fuse!)

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
wa8mea@hotmail.com
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K6SGH on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Everyone knows that radio waves bounce around the world because they are made of rubber!

73, K6SGH
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KB2DHG on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
MY OH MY...
EVERYTHING IS MAGIC... LIFE AND THE FORCES AROUND US...
My fellow Amateur Radio Operators and particapants of this web site... The author of this article only was displaying his views less us critisize a person who has a right to post his comments...

Antennas, Antennas, ANTENNAS! Our holy grail of topics of Amateur Radio...

Our quest for the IDEAL antenna will never end. So you people keep experamenting and writing your notes. What works for one may not work for another. I happen to live in a restricted Condo so I am using a G5RV with great rsults I can tune it up on most any band and have worked a lot of DX. Bottom line, just keep trying untill you find that antenna that best works for you. HOME BREWING IS THE BEST.
If you can't have a tower and beam, get wire in the air and HAVE FUN!
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WB1FPA on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
__Virtually all things can be explained, but many are difficult to understand.
__All you dipole, must be 'resonant' to 50 ohm types, did you ever think about the fact that a dipole is a 'standing wave' class antenna? In space you'd be joining it at the center and it would measure about 70 ohms (a whopping 1.4 to 1 SWR). If your feedline was exactly perpendicular, the antenna currents would balance out and cancel. Then some would say that there were no currents on the feedline. Since the currents canceled, this would be true.
__On the planet where it 'hears' echoes from energy reflections, the impedance goes up or down depending on the echo. How much of a 'standing wave' antenna is a dipole? Well lets say the bandwidth is 5% (a bit high), then its Q is 20. So the first exciting waveform would take 20 oscillations to drop to about 36% of its initial value. Since it takes this many oscillations to be converted to RF radiation (or heat depending on wire type and ground conditions), its a standing wave antenna. An example of a traveling wave antenna would be a terminated Rhombic. In this antenna, the RF is excited onto the antenna, heads away from the feedpoint never to return. Its 'Q' is about 1. It's not 50 ohms at the feedpoint, and its never resonant. But it can pack a lot of gain in a specific direction. There are a number of matching techniques, but none are magical as far as I know. I'd use an AC Node Analysis program, and then look at my proposed matching networks losses, and choose the best for my application.
Tom Howey WB1FPA
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by AE6QF on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It's magic when I don't have a better explanation..




73, Quiet-Finger, AE6QF
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N9AOP on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It has gotta be magic, otherwise how could I have worked world with homebrew OCF antenna.

Wire antenna merchants are selling you the sizzle not the physics otherwise you wouldn't pay near as much for the product.

Example: A good used car salesman sells the sizzle. That way the customer driving off in a beater they just bought for too much $ is a happy camper.
Art
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K9ZF on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Good job Allen.

For the most part, you are right as usual. Although I feel obligated to point out that six meters is in fact, and will remain, "the magic band"!

I fear most of us are like the rest of society in general. We don't have time to be bothered with facts.


73
Dan
--
K9ZF /R no budget Rover ***QRP-l #1269 Check out the Rover Resource Page at:
<http://www.qsl.net/n9rla> List Administrator for: InHam+grid-loc+ham-books
Ask me how to join the Indiana Ham Mailing list!

 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K3AN on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Want to know how good your antenna really is? See how well you can bust through the pileup on that rare DX station. Oh, you can't even hear the rare DX?

On 75, give a listen to the stations as they check in from around the country on the Geratol net (3668 kHz, after 0100Z every night). If you're an east coaster, for example, and you can't clearly hear the stations on the far side of the Rockies, then your antenna ain't as good as you think it is.

Try to make contacts in a phone contest. You can do fairly well in a CW test with a relatively poor antenna. But on phone, do the big overseas guns come back to you on your first call, correctly repeating your callsign, or do they come back with a partial or ask QRZed? Or worse, do they always come back to someone else or just call CQ again?

Everything works. Not everything works well.
 
Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KD5SFK on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Allan,

If you want intelligent, logical, scientific discourse about amateur radio, you're hanging out on the wrong website!

 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W9OY on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K3AN makes the best point I've read all month.

I especially got a kick out of common mode being a "feature". I think the idea of using maximum feed point current to tune up the magic has merit.

73 W9OY
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WA8MEA on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
How many of you started out as novices using SEVENTY FIVE OHM coaxial cable for your dipoles and inverted vees which were connected to your Heathkit, Viking, Eico 720, Ameco AC-1 or Knight T-60 transmitter(s)???

My dad and I put up dipoles using baluns (since center insulators weren't invented yet and the SO-239 just made for an easier and better conductive connection....) and tons of RG-9U.

Does anybody even sell RG-9U any longer???

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
wa8mea@hotmail.com
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K9WJL on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Nice rant Alan,
It's a Very good thing that Elmers like you and WB2WIK and W8JI (and others) are around this site all the time. I've learned alot from you guys and I appreciate it alot.
I guess alot of the problem for me is that it's pretty hard to learn this stuff, especially when you lack the troubleshooting tools and skills to make an accurate assessment of the situation. It's important when learning that you have the fundamentals down first, and good teachers to help you along and the proper tools to (properly) diagnose the situation.
I really like some of the articles that have appeared here that break things into the basics. I can then understand those basics and then apply them to other situations.
It really does seem like Magic when you can get something to work, but cant explain why. There are alot of factors in radio communication that are involved in getting a signal from point "A" to "B". I am still somewhat facinated when I can hear a station on the other side of the planet somewhere, and even more so when I can work them.
Thanks Again for the schoolhousing Alan.
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WA2DTW on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Many thanks for this article. Maybe I can learn something here.
From this and from W8JI's comments on a previous article, it appears that "reflected power" merely sets up voltage and current peaks and nulls along the transmission line, and does NOT actually go back into the transmitter. Is this correct?

Also- what EXACTLY are common mode currents?

Thanks again and 73
Steve WA2DTW
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by 5R8GQ on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I enjoy these antenna articles and debates, and I always learn something new. At a certain point, the theory and physics do go over my head. Not to worry. I still think of it as somewhat "magical" that I can hear and communicate with someone thousands of miles away with just some wires up in the air. I thought it was magic when I first heard Radio Moscow on my grandfather's old Philco SW radio when I was 9 years old. I still do, and I hope that feeling never goes away.

73, Ken
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K0BG on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Steve, WA2DTW, to answer your question, here's an over-simplified explanation. In an ideal world, RF flows down the surface of the outer conductor of the coax cable cable, and returns on inter surface of the coax shield. When there is an imbalance in the antenna (for what ever reason), current will flow on the outside of the coax shield. The current which flows on the outer surface of the shield is called common mode current. In other words, it is the unbalanced current not returned within the coaxial cable.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5ROY on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
HI YO SILVER AWAAAAYYY!!!! I do believe in magic. It is called hard work and perseverance. I personally get a lot of satisfaction most of the time building and working with antenna designs. Some work and others do not. I have an (OCF dipole UGH) that is of a rather odd length, and it seems to work just fine on my 30" portable tower fed with 100' of coax. as they say ,I have worked a bunch of them on this setup. Don't know why, just have. I seem to be in a very good spot here in Clovis,NM. being in the highest part of town, and have a 60' tower up with a tribander, a vertical and an inverted V. Have a transformer on a pole in my back yard, and no line noise. The radio Gods have blessed me. Thanks Alan for a great article, and also a great web site. Keep up the good work, as a few of us do appreciate the help. 73 de W5ROY ex Perterbilt mobile that worked DX.
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W1YB on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
W1ICP...

He was "magical"...
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I like to print out some of the comments from folks like Tom, Cecil, Steve, Dan and others including, yourself Alan, and save them for reference. However..........would everyone hang on a bit!!

After the article "The Truth About HF Tuners" I have run out of printer paper. I need to make a quick trip to Wal-Mart for more.

Nice article Alan.......and yea, I'm one of those G5RV users and I've always said it is only a tri band antenna (80-40-20) and it fits the limited space I have. The "magic " of the G5RV is, use 300 ohm line, not 450 ohm. The magic is better. I'm sure some of you know why.

John
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K9MHZ on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>>>>>by G8UBJ
Whether you buy or build your antennas I categorise hams into one of four groups -
1 - Put up and shut up
2 - Put up and bitch
3 - Put up and tinker
4 - Builders and testers<<<<<


I'm a #2.

Cheers,
K9MHZ



 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by AA4PB on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Much of the misinformation is the result of someone observing a valid phenomenon but failing to account for all the variables and attributing the observation to the wrong parameters. For example, I talked with a person who observed that when he connected only the center conductor of the coax he was still able to receive fairly well but couldn't transmit. He then concluded that receive signals flow on the center conductor and transmit signals flow on the shield. He hadn't considered SWR, transmitter fold-back circuits, or the impact of signal to noise ratio on receive.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5WSS on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan um....did you mean in an abnormal cycle rf travels from the transmitter towards the antenna along the outside of the inner center conductor and skin effect then back on the inner side of the outer conductor not sure what you are saying. your description seemed to omit the center conductor totally. in an unwanted cycle rf uses a third conductor path for common mode travel... the outside of the sheilding maybe I just have jet lag today lol.
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by G0GQK on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Any piece of wire when fed RF will radiate it, whether it radiates it efficiently is another matter. There are people who just for the hell of it send RF into folding garden chairs, aluminium greenhouses, walking sticks ! They radiate, but not well.

And the testing of a good antenna to pull in DX is a fallacy. For a start its not possible to make a good 20 metre dipole which will pull in signals as good as a 20 metre three element Yagi, so that's not true is it ?

And the ubiquitous G5RV has made another appearance. The G5RV was designed in 1946, sixty two years ago, for use on 20 metres, it was fed with 600 ohm open wire feeder, and intended for use with a valve transmitter. What firms manufacture today and people call a G5RV, isn't one ! When it was re-designed a few years later the only thing which remained of the original design was that the wire was 102 feet long.
The reason why it became popular in the US was because it was cheap and available in a plastic bag at hamfests !

And another mystery ! What the hell is an end fed dipole ? A dipole is two wires of equal length fed in the middle !

Finally, real amachoors use open wire feeders which radiate more power, cheaper to make and buy than coax. They don't use the ATU in a tranceiver because, as has been proved, the 100 watts is cut to 80 watts and in one test, made at a club station, an un-named modern tranceiver was only able to radiate 65 watts maximum into a dipole.!

G0GQK
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WA3YAY on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Or forget all this nonsense, put up a Par Endz end-fed dipole and go back to watching TV like I did.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K0BG on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Mel, G0GQK, I don't know where the information about losses through a internal antenna "tuner" came from, but 20 watts of loss is on the extreme edge.

Most of the built in couplers are designed for mismatches up to about 3:1, but most of them will do a little better as long as the phase angle is not extreme. Under these conditions, the throughput loss is typically under .5 dB. They do better with higher impedances than they do low ones, but that too depends on the configuration.

Nonetheless, external tuners aren't any better, and in most cases worse because most of them are not tuned correctly. Under the right circumstances, you can make a match without any antenna connected. It is this sort of mistuning that makes the upcoming referenced article interesting, at least in context.

Lastly, it's hard enough to measure the throughput loss of an external tuner, even with the right laboratory equipment. Measuring an internal one would seem an even more daunting task.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N1ERF on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think it both science and magic!

They are both over my head... Heh...Heh...Heh... *8^)


 
This Thing Can Be Explained!  
by AI2IA on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Always remember when reading threads on eHam.net that any reliable information contained herein, whether living or dead, is purely coincidental. The names of the characters are sometimes changed to protect the identity of the innocent and sometimes of the guilty.
The purpose of these threads is to support the advertisements on eHam.net by PROVIDING ENTERTAINMENT AND NOT INFORMATION.

As long as you do not take this site seriously, you can have a great deal of fun and entertainment. If you want information, get yourself a reliable book by a good technical author.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K6AER on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

Nice article. I am amazed the hear hams call out some special name for an antenna only to find out it is a commercial dipole. I guess if you spend $350 for a dipole it is supposed to outperform a home made dipole.

I take one exception to your statement on verticals. The 40 by 60 foot metal roof on my horse barn makes a pretty nice ground plane for the SteppIR vertical. I tried a ground mounted SteppIR vertical with 120 radials and a second vertical on the metal roof and in each case the metal roof installation outperformed the ground mounted vertical. Being elevated I also noticed it was less susceptible to noise.

Where you really start to hear the antenna myth is on ten meters. If the antenna name has super, cobra or master in the title it must have an extra 10 db of gain.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K0IZ on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, good comments. I'll just quibble at bit about your OCF.

Moving the feed point out from the center (ie from a center fed dipole), the impedance gradually increases, until it reaches a high point at the end (probably several thousand ohms). If the antenna is resonant, ANY feedpoint will be resistive. So attaching a 400 ohm ladder line, for example, at the 400 ohm point will result in a 1:1 SWR with no reactance.

Of course if the antenna is not resonant (any other freq), there will be reactance at any point, just like with a center dipole. And baluns would rather not see reactance.

The common mode radiation from an OCF feedline is due only to the fact that the antenna is unbalanced in reference to the feedline. IE, there is more wire on one side of the feedline, which can induce more signal in the feedline, thus common mode radiation.

That problem is inherent in the OCF. Some (Carolina Window types) feature the common mode radiation as a plus.

John.
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by AD7WN on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Nicely written, Alan. If people would only take any ARRL handbook from 1950 on (probably earlier ones too), and study the transmission lines and basic antenna theory sections carefully, there would be a lot fewer heated arguments in this forum. Have been a long time proponent of center fed antennas using open wire line.

73 de John, AD7WN
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WA8MEA on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K6AER said:

Nice article. I'm amazed to hear hams call out some special name for an antenna only to find out it is a commercial dipole. I guess if you spend $350 for a dipole it is supposed to outperform a home made dipole.
------------------------------------------------------
I think I know the antenna you are eluding too. The thing is, these $350 "dipoles" aren't really dipoles! OK, maybe we can stretch it a bit and call them "shortened dipoles" or "electronically shortened via inductance dipole". However, "a versatile system for launching your signal"???? Come on....

I prefer to call them "mobile whips" used in a dipole configuration.

If you want portable dipoles, go full size!

73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
"Home of the Full Size Portable Dipole"
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N6AJR on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
It is still magic!!

think about it, you tickle the aluminum here and half way areound the world it tickles alumium in his antenna, and it truly is magic.

I will never get over the magic of being able to talk around the world with some bits and parts and some wire and aluminum.

( and a good ground helps :) )
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KF4LVC on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

THANK YOU!

I, too, am so completely frustrated with the tremendous amount of misinformation that can be found on the web today. It seems to range from slight miscalculations to pure idiotic crap.

I agree that there are some very interesting real theories and real mathematic principals that we can experiment with. However, these are well documented. Understandably, not every ham will have the background in RF & physics, but this is no excuse for folks who fill the internet with downright wrong information.

No matter how "exotic" an antenna project may be, it must still follow the laws of physics as we know them to be. Even if you challenge some of Maxwell's equations, you must still work within the known world of math and science.

However, I must respectfully disagree with you that radio is not magic. Since the first time I heard a radio broadcast over the shortwave bands, I have always been captivated by the magic of radio. The magic is in the eye of the beholder... the math and science only makes the magic work!

Great article.

Vince, KF4LVC
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K2ID on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
As a former Magician I know that many magic tricks are built around scientific principles whether it be pyschology, physics or chemistry. The reason that my audience thought it was magic is simply because they did not know the scientific principles behind the trick. That is why Magicians never tell how it is done. Once the viewer knows the mechancis behind the trick, it ceases to be magic. It also ceases to cause wonderment, fun and entertainment. Perhaps we all need a little magic in everything we do if for no other reason than to bring some sense of awe into our lives.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on November 30, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Magic, according to Wikipedia....

"Magic is a performing art that entertains an audience by creating illusions of seemingly impossible or supernatural feats, using purely natural means. These feats are called magic tricks, effects or illusions."

I think effects and illusions pretty well sums it up for some of the antennas on the market.

John
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1CJS on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Just a question here--and not in hostility, but in simple curiosity:

Does the statement "Some Things Just Can't Be Explained" include the opinion that the only way to insure an antenna system works is by careful scientific anaylsis and by discarding any ideas that go against such anaylsis?

I ask because antenna systems put up by hams who know just the basics of such systems and incorporate their own ideas into their antenna systems without knowing how to do the scientific analyses seem to work--and work well. And please don't try to sell the idea that all those hams--of years ago and of today--just 'lucked' out. Once or twice is luck--more than that involves something else.

I know that there are others out here who really would like to know. Could you please explain?
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KD5NVC on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering"

73
Glenn
kd5nvc
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5JAO on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I fall into the #3 catagory & I don't believe in magic, I depend on it.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K0BG on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Chris, K1CJS. Obviously, there's a little tongue in cheek here, and perhaps a little sarcasm.

Far too many don't even know enough to build a dipole, let alone erect and tune it (this is why so many buy pre-assembled wire antennas). In their eyes, if it works, it works. The problem is, they don't know how it works, or how well it works (efficiency wise). As long as the SWR is low, and they can work a few DX stations, that seemingly is all that matters. And if that's all that matters, great. However, when they use these references to justify a review for example, they're only fooling themselves, and others of similar ilk.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KF7CG on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
For those that have transmitters and amps that will reliably tolerate &% ohm feedlines a low power replace for the old 75 ohm coax is the RG6 satellite feed line. It is a low loss 75 ohm coax. So is much of the cable system jumper line, but I often find it to be of inferior quality.

These are just the unscientific observations of a confirmed scrounge.

By the way an old manual tuner with the appropriate (I hesitate to say "correct" here) settings marked will allow many inefficient off band antennas to work rapidly with the ATU of modern rigs. Use the marked settings on the manual tuner to "chip" the antenna into range and then let the ATU do it.


KF7CG

"All science, sufficiently arcane, can be seen as magic" - Larry Niven
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I guess I come under the heading of "hams of years ago"...

Most of us became interested in ham radio because of the "magic" of radio. There was no computers, no TV, just plain old radio. We all had a desire to tinker with stuff that we knew nothing about. All we knew was what we read and most of the stuff about antennas was in simple formulas. Such as the length of a 1/2 wave dipole being 468/fMc (it was cycles back then) Coax was available after WW2 and became the feed line of choice.

Wire dipoles were not available on the market, so we cut some wire, used a glass insulator at the center and ends, hooked a length of RG-58, braid on one side and center on the other side. Brought the other end into the shack and attached it to the PI network of the transmitter. Did a little "load and dip" and the magic came to life.

There were no baluns, no common mode currents (they were there, we just hadn't read about them) and all the stuff that we worry about today. It just worked. If we followed those simple directions and common sense like "higher is better" it worked well.

Only later because of the internet and places like eham it became easy to personally connect with hams that had the knowledge to teach the rest of us the finer details of the magic.

Yea, you might say we lucked out, but it sure was fun.

John

 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WW5AA on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Wait a minute Alan!

I can work anyone I hear. (:-)

Thanks

73 de Lindy
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W4LGH on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG says..."What's with all of these references to OFC (off-center fed) dipoles being the epitome of antennas? Every single one of them, no matter how they are fed, result in a mismatch, their use of baluns (no matter their configuration) notwithstanding. This mismatch is so pervasive, no matter the balun type in use, that common mode currents on the fed line are a feature! In fact, in most cases the feed line is the major radiating element!"

Since 95% of my coax feedline is buried underground, I have a hard time believing it is the MAJOR radiating element. For that matter, all of my COAX is buried underground on all of my antennas. It has to be, to get to the next property, where my antennas are installed, do to CC&R's. Of course my 135"OCF is NOT used as a multiband antenna, but makes a GREAT BROADBAND 75/80M antenna. I have taken Field Strength readings and power reading at the antenna, both FORWARD and REVERSE, so I feel pretty confident that the power is getting to the antennas. My signal reports also confirm this, and several of the nets I frequent, the reports are, "you are always one of the strongest signals out there, even when band conditions are bad, they can usually hear me ok.

73 de W4LGH - Alan
NO EXTERNAL TUNER REQUIRED, BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1CJS on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan--K0BG,

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't trying to be funny or sarcastic, I'm really trying to understand the why of your statements and to learn about antenna systems, that is why I asked if it could be explained--or not. You see, I'm still wondering about the impossibility of an 'ideal' installation that antenna designs are made to and scientific analysis would lead to--even though that wasn't mentioned.

There are reflections and blocking by structures and land contours that change the characteristics of almost any antenna installation, and therefore would act to change the effectiveness of an antenna installation. How does your methods take those items into account? It seems that outside of using computer programs and analysis methods beyond the reach of the casual ham, the only way those things can be taken into account is by trial and error, and an antenna that is, for instance, off center fed may just work as well or better than a center fed one?

I do know what you're saying about the so called 'miracle' antennas, and after trial and thought I have to agree with you about their effectiveness. I have to, however, think that there is a lot more to this subject than just a simple, by the book analysis and then construction from that analysis.

I look forward to your reply, and thanks again!

Chris, K1CJS
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KE7FD on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I believe Alan has hit the nail on the head. We are all glad to see the amateur ranks increase or at least sustained, but at what cost? In the years that the FCC has published the answers to the exams, many have simply memorized these to pass the test. Others have taken the time to learn the principles behind the question and enjoy the knowledge they have gained. However, if Allan's comments are an accurate reflection of what is being posted here at eHam at least, there truly is a boat load of ignorance out there.

Perhaps it is time to go back to the older format of learning the principles like we did years ago with no memorization required except for things like band allocations. There are materials easily available that teach the student about radio, yet you will not see the prevalence of S.W.R. in those materials as one would read or hear about day in and day out when it comes to antennas, feedlines, etc.

Some pretty good comments in this thread and some good raspberries too.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N9NFB on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
One easy method to measure loss in an external tuner:

Place tuner with its two cables, a dummy load with
its cable, and a remote reading thermometer in an
insulated styrofoam cooler. Insulate the heck out
of it.

How to use this is so simple it almost doesn't need
to be described, but dump raw DC at various voltages
for a fixed time into the dummy load and then let it
sit for a couple minutes and record the temperature
increase. Measure your voltage and DL resistance with
an accurate meter. Use Ohms law to make a table of
"loss" vs delta-T. Now, transmit thru your tuner
for a like duration, record the delta-t, figure out
your loss.
As a dB figure it will probably be much lower than you expect.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N9NFB on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Was attempting to reply to K0BG's response to G0GQK regarding it being very difficult to measure the loss of an external antenna tuner even in a lab. Not so if you run a homemade calorimeter setup like this. No idea why it displays as a response here.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N1LO on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I still think the way radio works is magic. The engergy goes up a wire and into the air. I can't sense it happening at all (unless I touch the antenna of course).

And a voice comes back to me from another country!

Saturday, I was testing an OCF 80m dipole at a portable location. It worked great, and my first contact was with South Africa.

The fact that I could ragchew with someone across the world, in real time, without any physical connection, without internet, phone company, etc, *is* magic.

It's even more magical when you do something that many people say can't or won't work.

A lot of the magic was the way I felt after the experience. Sure there was a fair amount of science in the planning, building, tuning, erecting. But I still think the net result of voices coming and going in thin air *is* magic.


--...MARK_N1LO...--
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K0AUE on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Many years ago during the cold winter nights in Iowa and Minnesota, our informal gathering on 160, 80 or 40 meters, depending on band conditions, would address the beauty of the Northern Lights that we could see in the northern sky. How beautiful this manifestation of nature was as a result of sunlight reflecting off the Arctic ice cap. More magic for sure.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BQT on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, say it ain’t so!

>Every single one of them, no matter how they are fed, result in a mismatch, their use of baluns (no matter their configuration) notwithstanding.<

Not true. If you locate a common tap point on the element where the even-harmonic driving resistances are near-equal for each band of interest, you’ve identified a workable driving resistance for the antenna. Then, if you design a line transformer to match that in-common driving resistance down to Zo = 50, where’s the mismatch issue? The problem comes when builders use a 4:1 or 9:1 transformer (for convenience) without ever bothering to determine what the actual driving resistances are.

>This mismatch is so pervasive, no matter the balun type in use, that common mode currents on the fed line are a feature!<

False again – and I think you may be confusing the common-mode current blocking function of a choke balun with the matching function of a transmission line transformer. But, let’s back up a step. Tell me more about how a mismatch between a generator and load causes the formation of common-mode currents along the differential feedline interconnecting the two? I hadn’t heard that one before.

>In fact, in most cases the feed line is the major radiating element!<

Rarely so. In fact, many designers (myself included) build OCFDs that are carefully isolated from the feedline so that the element functions as a true dipole (off-center fed or otherwise). When the feedline’s outer shield is decoupled from the element, the antenna will perform predictably regardless of coax length or routing to your shack. The Cushcraft MA5V and the “No Compromise OCFD” (p-32 June ‘08 QST) are two examples of OCFDs employing effective decoupling.

On the other hand, when the feedline shield is not isolated and is available to conduct antenna-mode currents, then repositioning it or changing it’s length can perturb the antenna’s operating parameters quite a bit with respect to resonant frequency, SWR, and pattern. However, even at that, the common-mode path along the feed is still only one of three active current paths available for RF at the feed point -- and that path will only draw the majority of the current under fairly specific circumstances.

Having said all that, here’s where we do agree.

It is true that what many vendors sell as OCFDs are not well decoupled from the feed and are really “tripoles”. The performance of a “tripole” can vary a lot because its third leg (being the feedline shield) is undefined both for positioning and length. Everyone's installation is different. Some designers have attempted to stabilize this vulnerability by running a pre-determined length of feedline to an in-line feedline choke installed at a fixed distance from the feed point. While these antennas may perform more predictablly, they are still “tripoles” and not OCFDs.

So, before jumping all ugly and nasty at the OCFD as a “bad antenna”, first make sure how carefully it is matched and how well the feed is isolated. It may be that what you’re really talking about is someone’s shade-tree concoction that's been mislabeled as an OCFD!
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KE7FD on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I suppose until technology provides an instrument that allows the human eye to "see" the energy along feedlines and radiators (note I did not say antenna) the controversies will not let up. Even with x-rays and MRI's medical professionals come up with conflicting opinions, but not usually. In fact, it is the medical professional who knows what he sees and can say with certainty what is and what is not. No two OCF dipoles are exactly the same with their respective installation is taken into consideration, and that in itself can dictate great differences in performance.

I am told and have read that loops, aka "cloud burners" are only good out to a few hundred miles at best. Still, I've worked stations from Europe, South America and Asia all on low power using only my 80M loop. How? It's bent all to heck and on the side of a hill, surrounded by trees and is not very pretty (there are counter-weighted pulleys on it to account for wind and ice, but heck it works). Given time, I will fine tune this antenna to be a perfect 50 ohm match at the feedpoint and find an acceptable way to run ladder-line to it. Right now it's a compromise like most antennas are. I have no idea what the S.W.R. on any given band I use it for (I use a tuner to cheat and make the radio happy). I am more concerned with the antenna as a radiator and collector of R.F., which according to signal reports is pretty good. There's no magic in play, just good radio principles put to use; some requisite compromises, sure, but I cannot just say it's got a 1:1 and leave it at that. I've used dipoles and OCF's that read 1:1 that were deaf and mute. I've always operated on the idea that one should get as much energy out to the antenna as possible.

But then again like some others have said, it's still cool to think we're talking to folks half a world away without any physical link other than free-wheeling electro-magnetic energy.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KE7FD on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hey, here's a thought and perhaps where folks are not on the same page: Where does the radio end and the antenna begin? If the feed-line is part of the antenna, as with OCF antennas up to a point, and not with dipoles, then any discussion of baluns/transformers/"isolators" will have to take that into consideration. What then if there is a perfect match from the back of the radio to the far end of the feed-line (50 ohm unbalanced line or some Z of ladder-line all the way out to the antenna feed point)? If we could all have multiple resonant antennas for every segment of every band we used then much of the antenna "magic" confusion would go away (not to mention our real estate values).

If you consider the feed-line as part of the radio (and the "far end" of the feed-line looks exactly like the back of the radio) and you use frequencies beyond what the antenna is cut for, put your tuner there. If your rely on your feed-line radiating as part of the antenna then put your tuner where the feed-line ends and where the antenna begins. There will be frequencies where a tuner will not be needed and sometimes only a balun/transformer/"isolator". Remember in the ARRL handbook all those diagrams that show a generator at the feed-point of an antenna? If it weren't so unhealthy (and impractical), putting the antenna right off the back of the radio, eliminating any feed-line, would be the best way to get energy to the antenna, provided it's resonant. (Please don't anyone do that: lots of bad mojo!).

Radio, feed-line, antenna (I'm lumping ground effects as part of the antenna) is all there is to it. Take feed-line out of the picture for a moment and you see that as much energy needs to reach and be radiated by the antenna. Now, how do you use feed-line to help and not hinder that process? If we can make our feed-lines look like the back of the radio, in all instances, you basically have put the antenna at the radio (OK, ideal world does not worry about feed-line losses...). I know operators that swear by OCF dipoles, loops (ahem) and others verticals. If we play by the rules (aka, the laws of physics) and not hearsay, the antennas we use will work better. Don't be afraid to read the handbook or antenna book (those who haven't done so). Experiment and talk to others, but by all means stick with the facts. Don't even listen to what I've said. Read the book.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K0BG on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry to disappoint, Rick, but it is so.

A lot of the commercial OCF dipoles use a 4:1 voltage balun, that does little more than saturate under power because of the unbalanced load it sees. When this happens, it's isn't much more than a resistor.

You might find one spot where things are fairly balanced, and perhaps a proper choke will stop most of the common mode currents.

Most commercial units are advertised as multiband. As I said, just because you can load some chunk of conducting material with a tuner, and make it radiate, doesn't mean much.

Don't take my word for it, write Owen, VK1OD, an e-mail and ask him what he thinks of OCF dipoles.

ALan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com

PS: You mentioned a tri-pole. Well, back in the late 60s, you could actually buy one. There was even a penta-pole version. Wonder why you don't see any of them nowadays?
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5DXP on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Amateur radio is a lot like society in general. The ignorant uninitiated have to settle for a lot less than the knowledgeable initiated. Sorry, but that's reality.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WI7B on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!

From Wikipedia on SWR:

"Many amateur radio operators believe any impedance mismatch is a serious matter. However, this is not the case.

Assuming the mismatch is within the operating limits of the transmitter, the radio operator needs only be concerned with the power loss in the transmission line. Power loss will increase as the SWR increases, however the increases are often less than radio amateurs assume.

For example, a dipole antenna tuned to operate at 3.75MHz—the center of the 80 meter amateur radio band—will exhibit an SWR of about 6:1 at the edges of the band. However, if the antenna is fed with 250 feet of RG-8A coax, the loss due to standing waves is only 2.2dB.

Feed line loss typically increases with frequency, so VHF and above antennas must be matched closely to the feedline. The same 6:1 mismatch to 250 feet of RG-8A coax would incur 10.8dB of loss at 146MHz."

73,

---* Ken
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N0AH on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
In 1998, I went to Lord Howe (VK9LZ) and operated an Yaesu FT-900 with 100 watts and a Cushcraft AP8A vertical. They stopped making this antenna but it is a typical ground mount vertical 10-80M.

With very low SF=68-70, and very high solar index's (K=5-7 and A=60+), I worked the USA's grayline on 30, 40 and 80 meters every evening. I could almost tell what time it was by listening to call signs.

That had little explanation with my antenna restriction being so light weight to travel. The way I see it, to make a circuit between point A and B, you need a certain amount of gain to add up between them.

Daytime bands to JA was a piece of cake But Only got into the USA once for about 3 hours.

My theory is what I was lacking, they were over-compensated and making the QSO's with my QTH at no problem.

Big antennas explain things fb for me- take 6/6/6 on 20M and you'll be busy 24hrs a day somewhere-
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5DXP on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> WI7B wrote: "Many amateur radio operators believe any impedance mismatch is a serious matter. However, this is not the case."

In fact, when a complex load impedance is involved, a conjugate MATCH ensures an impedance MISMATCH, i.e. maximum power transfer to a complex load can only occur when an impedance mismatch exists - strange but true.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KN4LF on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
The only real magic that I've ever seen is God!

73,
Thomas F. Giella, KN4LF
Lakeland, FL, USA
http://www.kn4lf.com
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5DXP on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> KN4LF wrote: The only real magic that I've ever seen is God! <

Could you send me a photograph?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
"Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!"

How true for me.......someone explain to me.

If the tuner creates a proper match for the transmitter and creates a conjugate match between the tuner and antenna (the load) for maximum transfer of RF (energy). Then what does any reflected wave see at the antenna looking back toward the tuner? Does it see the same conjugate match as the forward wave, or a different match, or no match at all. Just as if the tuner were not there.

I would think it would see some sort of a load at the tuner that would allow a maximum amount of the wave to be sent back down the line toward the tuner. A load it would not see without the tuner. All this happening back and forth at close to light speed millions of times a second.

How close am I to the reality of all this?

John

 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Perhaps I should have changed the word "load" to read "a match".
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BQT on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hello John and Cecil! Been a long time, but when I saw Alan beating up on one of my favorite antennas, I had to jump in. Besides, I'm home sick today, uglier than usual, and looking for a fight.

Actually, Tom , W8JI, has written some interesting stuff on the OCFD on his site -- as did L.B. Cebik just prior to becoming an SK.

John, I tend to think of "load" as some entity with a specific value attached to it (Z=R+/-J). A 50-Ohm load has finite value. A match occurs when two entities are of equal value.

A pant-load, on the other hand, is rarely equally distributed.

-- Rick
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Rick....

"A pant-load, on the other hand, is rarely equally distributed."

Only after you sit and think about it for awhile.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WA8MEA on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
WAIT A MINUTE!

I found MAGIC!

A flashy banner ad is appearing above me right now!

It says ONE ANTENNA! 10 through 160 meters!

Now here's the kicker. It also states:

Rated #1!

Who the hell rated it number one? Or is that the eHam review average?

;-)

73, Bill
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by HAM101 on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
You are probably qualified to answer a lot of issues on RF.

There are things in electronics that is still theory not fact and some things not fully understood.

One thing I recall from years back that was not fully understood is that as the freq. changed on a radar system you could get a return signal on some objects but not other objects. It may have been figured out by now that why different freq. react that way.

It is amazing what humans have done with electronics since the 1850's and telegraph being the first practical use of electricty.

If I have some ideas wrong here, then correct me.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BQT on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not sure I'd take my "match" definition to the bank, John, it seems...lacking.

Wait, I have the whole Communications Quarterly archive right here on CD! Surely there's something in there that might shed some light on this "conjugate match" business!

Oh oh, look at all those index hits!

Guess it's true that SOME THINGS really can't ever be explained!
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1DA on December 1, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I use a field strength meter to adjust my "T" match.
Looks like the buzz words for '09 are going to be "common mode" and "OCF".
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KW4N on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Sure they can! Consider explanations of "the magic" in answers to the following questions: "Is it possible for a perfect insulator to radiate?" "The ground around a transmitting antenna radiates?" Check out the following prize winning article by K. Macleish, W7TX.

http://www2.arrl.org/tis/info/whyantradiates.html

 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5DXP on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> K1BQT wrote: A match occurs when two entities are of equal value. <

Hi Rick, to be technically correct, we need to talk about the different kinds of "matches".

An impedance match occurs when two entities are of equal value. An impedance match does not guarantee maximum transfer of available power.

A conjugate match occurs when two entities are conjugates of each other. A conjugate match guarantees maximum transfer of available power.

When complex loads exist (e.g. non-resonant antennas) a conjugate match at the antenna guarantees an impedance mismatch at the antenna.

In the special case of a pure resistance (resonance) R+j0 = R-j0, an impedance match is the same as a conjugate match.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K9COX on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Is a conjugate match something like when my wife visits me in prison?
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BQT on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
First, I would rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log with Sarah Palin's dog than restart that whole epic multi-year conversation about the conjugate match. I guess it would be more accurate to say that some things have more than one explanation. Unfortunately, at some point, the tone turns religious and the factions start showing up with weapons.

Okay, having said that, is it not true that for simple non-reactive loads like R1+j0 = R2+j0, we're not talking about an impedance match at all, but rather a resistive match?



 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WA8MEA on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
My wife and I are a conjugate match.

What?

Oh....I see....

The word is conjugal???

(Never mind.....)

Bill
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KF7CG on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
More MAGIC -- You are talking about both! There is no rule that an impedance must have a reactive element. The resitive match is what would be termed a degenerate case (let the puns and wisecracks begin).

KF7CG
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W5DXP on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> K1BQT wrote: Okay, having said that, is it not true that for simple non-reactive loads like R1+j0 = R2+j0, we're not talking about an impedance match at all, but rather a resistive match? <

"Impedance match" is a generic term that applies equally well to purely resistive impedance matches. I don't hear the term, "resistance match", very often.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BQT on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I see your point. Guess I'm thinking of describing an antenna element's driving resistance at resonance -- with resonance being defined as R+0j.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K6LHA on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
W5DXP posted on December 2, 2008:

> K1BQT wrote: A match occurs when two entities are of equal value. <

"Hi Rick, to be technically correct, we need to talk about the different kinds of "matches".

An impedance match occurs when two entities are of equal value. An impedance match does not guarantee maximum transfer of available power.

A conjugate match occurs when two entities are conjugates of each other. A conjugate match guarantees maximum transfer of available power.

When complex loads exist (e.g. non-resonant antennas) a conjugate match at the antenna guarantees an impedance mismatch at the antenna.

In the special case of a pure resistance (resonance) R+j0 = R-j0, an impedance match is the same as a conjugate match."
.........
Cecil, I agree with the above. I think I can see where some others might have a problem in understanding the concept of complex quantity conjugation (without resorting to bad jokes about other 'conjugation' etc.). I'm just following with some comments for other readers of this article.

In simple explanations of simple resonance, the magnitude of reactance of the L component is equal to the reactance magnitude of the C component. But, their phase angles are opposite, leaving only the R of component losses in the circuit. For the simple L-C circuit, the L and C values are CONJUGATE at their resonance frequency, i.e., equal reactive magnitude but of opposite phase.

Generally, most amateurs' eyes glaze over at mention of "complex quantities" of magnitude and phase so the vast majority of licensed amateurs start resorting to "magic" terms when confronted with such "advanced theory." :-)

Complex number quantities have only two components in each form, rectangular or polar. The term "complex" is a mathematical one and relates to a combination of magnitude and phase angle. In familiar English terms, just two quantities are not complex as such. The same is true in expression of the rectangular form of complex quantities...the "imaginary" part term comes from mathematics but it exists in familiar English-useage terms.

We could think of "complex" in another sense: Equivalent circuits (in simple circuit theory form). At ONE frequency, and only ONE frequency, a complex impedance can be REPRESENTED by either a parallel of an R and an X -OR- a series R and X. [that's common in narrowband circuit component matching, has been so for decades] One representative equivalent will have very different component values than its other representative...yet both are identical at that same SINGLE frequency. One might say we are at some "magic" zone borderline when doing that. :-)

Representative forms of impedance show up in an infinite variety on any Smith Chart. "Phil Smith's Wonderful Diagram" (as one instructor termed it many many moons ago) is a polar-form chart allowing plotting of complex quantities...but with the ability to CHANGE PHASE ANGLE of that complex quantity. This is a fantastic tool for anyone working with transmission lines. Phase can be changed by simply moving along a transmission line (by wavelength, thus the phase angle) and noting the impedance at this NEW plot point. The representative impdeance there can be expressed in R and X values which will BOTH be different than those at the first point...but it must be done at the same frequency for first and second plot points.

That is very, very close to "magic" in its concept, emotional terms in individual minds due to its representative equivalent circuits. Ain't no "magic" at all, just a different way to 'look' at complex quantity impedances.

Smith Chart plots can be done at many frequencies. At each different frequency the circular movement of phase change has to be done with new phase changes (phase is dependent on percentage wavelength and wavelength changes with frequency). Datasheets from manufacturers often show a whole line of impedance representations over a specified bandwidth. By just moving the Phase/Wavelength circularly along the chart, one can get several things: A point where X is very close to zero leaving only the R part; A point where the R part is at a specified value desired but the X also has a finite value. What some term "magic" is that a CONJUGATE reactance can be introduced there (same magnitude, opposite phase) leaving ONLY the desired R value at a source end. A "resistive match" had been achieved at that frequency without adding any physical transformer. Just one C or L added for that one frequency and maximum power transfer is enabled at that frequency.

Sections of transmission line have been used for decades in narrowband applications to REPLACE physical inductors and capacitors. That's a very strange concept to many but can be seen on any Smith Chart by rotation from the zero R point (for a shorted-end line) or an infinite R point (for an open-end line). A quarter-wavelength long length of transmission line that is shorted at one end will appear as an OPEN at the other end at that frequency...very useful when there is a need to ground the transmission line at low frequencies and down to DC. No "magic" involved, just a very different application of simple circuit theory.

What I personally find interesting and some consider 'black magic' is the simple two-component Ell-section matching network, just one capacitor and one inductor, one shunt and one series in any two combinations of the four possible arrangements. An Ell-section is common to the automatic antenna tuners of today. Only two arramgements of L and C will match almost any antenna impedance very close to 50 or 75 Ohms resistive source impedance common to HF transmitters.

As a civilian engineer I've "worn" a low-power HF transceiver, the AN/PRC-104 that covers the whole HF spectrum. ONE whip antenna, very electrically short at any HF frequency, absolutely not "resonant" in the dipole sense. Operational in 1984, it has a small, separate-box automatic antenna tuner alongside the transceiver itself. That tuner is an Ell-network type with microprocessor controller. No action needed by the radioman in use. Obviously not "efficient" for radiating/receiving at HF considering the counterpoise is the main box and wearer, the whip antenna length small. The matching unit makes the most out of getting RF into/out-of the whip antenna over any terrain in any environment.

Both myself and Cecil have used the term "distributed constants" as opposed to simple circuit theory. Distributed constant systems use the FULL field and wave theory, all the way from James Clerk Maxwell's full set of equations to more common blocks of transmission lines, waveguides, and other mysterious microwave stuff. "Lumped constant" circuits at VLF to UHF is a SUBSET of FULL theory, the stuff of individual L, C, and R components. Simple circuit theory is a LOT easier to work with...distributed constant circuits are math-intensive by several orders of magnitude.

If there be any "magic" in RF then I would put my own magic borderline at broadband Isolators and Circulators that pass nearly all RF in ONE DIRECTION, solely by passive component means, no bilateral flow direction common to all other forms of RF.

73, Len AF6AY
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by DIPOLE on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>> KN4LF wrote: The only real magic that I've ever seen is God! <
>
>Could you send me a photograph?
>--
>73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

That could probably be done. But unless one has eyes that can see what can't be seen, and ears that can hear what can't be heard, then any such photograph will probably be invisible as well. Faith is the substance of all hope, and evidence of the unseen (Heb 11:1). Kinda like audio is evidence of RF.

73, Barry (N5EBS)
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KL7AJ on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I'm glad you brought this point up....it's a good one!

I was privileged to have done some work on KFAR's old transmitter, built in the 1930's (the first broadcast station in Interior Alaska) before it was abandoned, and replaced by a "Modern" system.

KFAR had an ancient link-coupled RCA transmitter. A slant-wire feedline attached to the free-standing, grounded tower attached DIRECTLY to the output network of the transmitter....no coax. Coax hadn't been invented yet. No way of measuring SWR, even if SWR had a meaning at the time...which it didn't. The tower was about 1/6 of a wavelength tall on 660 KHz....not even REMOTELY self resonant.

The loading was performed by a movable link. The power indication was a thermocouple ammeter between the cold end of the link and ground. (As I recall the impedance at that point was around 20 ohms. The link itself also served as a loading coil, so the reactance at the cold end, where the meter was, was pretty close to zero...though it didn't have to be at that particular point in the circuit. KFAR operated with this arrangement for well over 60 years.

In this case, anyway...the antenna began right where the feed cable emerged from the transmitter cabinet. (By the way, this station was in NO way unique....everything about it was standard practice, state of the art...for 1936).

Was it perfect? No....there was enough R.F. on the cabinet to singe your knuckles. Did it work? Yes....put out a killer signal througout the interior for 60 years.

Draw your own conclusions.

Eric
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by KL7AJ on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Alan:

Thanks for the good words. I'm sure you won't be disappointed in the upcoming article. It's actually a collaboration 'twixt John Stanley, K1RO and me. (John has served many years as one of HCJB's engineers).
I do want to add a comment about the minimum capacitance approach to tuning a T-network. Though you will almost always find a match using this method, you could also end up with a very "touchy" tuning situation. (There's a whole subject of "sensitivity analysis" that most broadcast engineers deal with (especially with directional arrays) that isn't mentioned much in Amateur literature). As it turns out, the tuning situation that gives you as close to a 90 degree phase shift as possible will require the least amount of retuning for a given change in load impedance. (This is one reason a lot of directional A.M. stations seem to have a lot more tuning components than necessary. A small sacrifice in efficiency can sometimes result in a HUGE increase in STABILITY. Since riding herd on a directional array can be a full time job when everything's WORKING, there's no point in making it worse by having everything DRIFT as well).

For this reason alone, you will often find a T network inserted in a broadcast facility when you already have a perfect match! (These are often incorporated inside the "Phasor" cabinet IN ADDITION to the normal relative phase shift network). These "unnecessary" tuning units are there STRICTLY to create a 90 degree "desensitizing" phase shift.

As for my own use, I have a couple of T networks using TWO series inductors, and one shunt capacitor. This arrangement is less likely to degenerate into a high-pass filter, even under the worst of states. It's an expensive way to go, but I always had access to "spare" broadcast parts...HI!

eric
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Alan and Eric....

A little off topic, but My QST subscription was to expire Nov 30 since I was not planing to renew. When you mentioned that Eric was going to have that article on T tuners in the February issue I changed my mind and at 11:04 PM November 30 I renewed on line. At 11:11PM, 6 minutes later, it was confirmed.

So now, with a whole more years worth for me, are you planing on any more articles Eric? I like your style of writing.

John
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K1BXI on December 2, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Make that 7 minutes later....math was never my best subject!!
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by N2EY on December 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG writes: "A G5RV is a decent HF antenna if you except the fact that it was designed to be a three band antenna (20, 40, and 80)."

No, that's not true.

I have scans of the original articles by G5RV himself, from the RSGB Bulletins of July, 1958, November, 1966, and July 1984.

From the very beginning, the G5RV was designed for use on 160, 80/75, 40, 20, 15, and 10 meters. Since its design predates the allocation of the WARC bands to amateurs by a couple of decades, it wasn't designed for 30, 17 or 12 meters.

HOWEVER, several facts about the G5RV should be remembered:

1) It was designed at a time when the 80/75 meter band outside Region 2 was 3.5 to 3.8 MHz or thereabouts, not 3.5 to 4.0 MHz. Similarly, the 40 meter band outside Region 2 was 7.0 to 7.1 MHz or thereabouts, not 7.0 to 7.3 MHz.

2) It was designed for use with 72 ohm twin-lead (yes, there was such a thing) or coax, not 50 ohm, and that part wasn't supposed to exceed about 80-100 feet.

3) It was designed for use with rigs that could efficiently match loads that gave an SWR of 3:1 or worse, without a lot of fuss. IOW, when G5RV talked about "low SWR", he meant less than about 4:1 or so, not 1.1:1.

4) The antenna was designed with the idea that it would be put up at least 35 or 40 feet, in a straight line, with the ladder line part going straight down at right angles to the antenna.

5) It can be used on 160 by tying the feeders together and working it as a top-loaded vertical.

----

Where a lot of hams run into grief with the G5RV is that they put one up, feed it with 50 ohm coax and expect to get 1:1 SWR on all parts of every HF band. That's a very unreasonable expectation.

73 de Jim, N2EY
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by KF7CG on December 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Eric,

Doesn't the degenerate case of an inductive tee tuner become a low pass filter?

KF7CG
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by W5DXP on December 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> N2EY wrote: Where a lot of hams run into grief with the G5RV is that they put one up, feed it with 50 ohm coax and expect to get 1:1 SWR on all parts of every HF band. That's a very unreasonable expectation. <

Here are a few good references:

http://www.w8ji.com/g5rv_facts.htm

http://www.vk1od.net/G5RV/

http://www.cebik.com/content/a10/wire/g5rv.html
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by DIPOLE on December 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
>> N2EY: ...That's a very unreasonable expectation. <<

I have to agree. In fact, I have often fallen prey to "unreasonable expectations" myself, and much to my chagrin. In our hobby we now have more bands, more bandwidth, more modes, and more magical gizmos than we ever had back in the day. A self assembled HW-101 with a straight key and a wire for 80m was very typical for a new ham in the 1970s.

My other great (i.e. time consuming) hobby is photography. I once believed that if I went through enough cameras, I would eventually come across the one "magical camera" that would perform equally well in the studio, in the field, and at sporting venues. Each successive camera was really no better than the last, and always fell short of perfection in one aspect or another. I have become more wise as a photographer, and have long since abandoned the quest for the holy grail of cameras. Instead, I now have various cameras that are each optimized for a relatively narrow band of photographic interest.

In the same way, the pursuit (and expectations) of a "one size fits all" antenna, amplifier, rig, tuner, etc. is, at best, going to leave one feeling only partially satisfied with the results. My setup can cover 20 & 40 meters reasonably well and, considering my site limitations, is reasonably optimized from end-to-end. At present, I don't even try for anything else in HF. To do so would add more compromise than I'm willing to extend.

No mater how much *magic* exists in our hobby, the simple fact is that you can't get something for nothing (or even very cheaply.) And very often we can't even have two somethings simultaneously no matter how hard we try or how much we deceive ourselves.

73, Barry (N5EBS)
 
Nothing dispells myths like experience  
by N8EKT on December 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
In my more than 30 years in electronics repair, I have always found that ANYTHING created by man can be REPAIRED by man.
And anything man made can be explained.
Another observation was that although there are many proclaimed "new" antenna designs, they are usually just a 50 year old design twisted to a different shape.
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by K6LHA on December 3, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
KF7CG questioned on December 3, 2008:

"Doesn't the degenerate case of an inductive tee tuner become a low pass filter?"

I would question only your terminology. "Inductive tee" does not fully describe a network. A conventional Pi-Network is, most of the time, a lowpass filter and could be briefly stated as a "C-L-C" arrangement. But, a Pi-Network described as an "L-C-L" arrangement which can sometimes effect a match but would be (mostly) a high-pass filter. Simplistic terminology use has (unfortunately) found its way into other things electronic, such as ads and articles talking about "magnetic" balun (transfromers) versus "voltage" or "electric" baluns...just very inaccurate descriptions of those devices.

Simple networks are (almost always) described in frequency response AS IF they were all terminated in ideal, resistive-only loads. In the case of antennas, their very wideband impedances are FAR from ideal. Everyone seems to just characterize the entire source-tuner-line-antenna as the sum of individual parts, each one working under ideal terminations. Not good. As far as a ham STATION works they are all together.

It is possible to have an antenna, especially a wire type intended for HF to interact with a conventional Pi-Network such that transmitter harmonics have a HIGHER radiated power than in the ideal case of a lowpass) Pi-Net terminated in a purely-resistive load. I'm not saying this "always happens" but the possibility exists. One has to see the ENTIRE path...source through tuner network through feedline through antenna...to understand it.

Unfortunately, everyone seems to be concerned solely with ONE frequency, the fundamental of a set of many harmonics and not bothering with anything else. The antenna's RADIATING part (that which takes the RF power fed into it and transforms that into electrostatic-electromagnetic wavefronts) might even
FAVOR harmonics over the fundamental.

73, Len AF6AY

 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by W5DXP on December 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
> AF6AY Unfortunately, everyone seems to be concerned solely with ONE frequency, the fundamental of a set of many harmonics and not bothering with anything else. <

I would venture a guess that, for most solid-state commercial transceivers with fixed pi-net filtering on the output, the harmonics are mostly attenuated before they reach the tuner. That looks to be the case for my IC-706.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by KL7AJ on December 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
That's certainly true for 99% of all modern rigs...especially if they're type accepted. However, there's something still aesthetically disturbing about having a high-pass filter in my antenna system. :) It's like washing your feet with your socks on. It may work fine, but it still feels funny!


There's another subtle reason I prefer the L-C-L Tee over the C-L-C, despite the cost. With the former, you can get more tuning range for a given amount of total reactance. You can make either one of the L's essentially zero...which means you can make either a high to low, or a low to high L network, when conditions permit. No variable capacitor can go to zero reactance, so you can never really configure the second type to look like a true L network.

An interesting note is that at high power levels, such as in broadcasting, even high quality roller inductors are FAR cheaper than vacuum variable capacitors. That's why standard practice is to "fake" a variable capacitor by using a fixed capacitor and a series tuneable inductance in the shunt leg of a tee.

Eric
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained - Yet.  
by K6LHA on December 4, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
W5DXP posted on 4 Dec 08:

> AF6AY Unfortunately, everyone seems to be concerned solely with ONE frequency, the fundamental of a set of many harmonics and not bothering with anything else. <

"I would venture a guess that, for most solid-state commercial transceivers with fixed pi-net filtering on the output, the harmonics are mostly attenuated before they reach the tuner. That looks to be the case for my IC-706."

I would agree looking at the innards of my IC-746Pro. IMHO, The biggest advantage is NOT any L-C network but in the Class B final with modulation (including on-off keying) being done at lower RF levels, thus more easily handled internally. A linear final doesn't produce as much in the way of extra harmonics compared to the old Class C biased finals.

73, Len AF6AY
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N7WY on December 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
I think we should all consider -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_clerk_maxwell

to be one of the most insightful magicians of the last two hundred years. Think about how basic our lives would be if his four partial differential equations had somehow been wrong. With no electrodynamic power we'd be living with candles and steam engines. We might have copper linked telephony and telegraphy, but we'd have no radio, TV, cellular telephony, or satellite navigation. Thank God he pulled the rabbit out of the hat. If you have technical ability to appreciate his equations, they are far more attractive than his gorgeous stage hand could ever be.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K6LHA on December 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
On the appreciation of James Clerk Maxwell I will be there with much loud cheering and clapping. What an astounding genius-level insight he had to connect a number of different laws of physics into a unified whole and then ADD to that and do more with those!

Maxwell managed to compute the speed of light and "ether waves" purely by theoretical means. No test instruments involved yet he came so CLOSE to the real value it is astounding to me. Pure Insight is the highest form of "magic" to me. All the rest are just practical manifestations to get what others term "magic."

73, Len AF6AY
 
RE: Somethings Just Can't Be Explained!  
by WB8ROL on December 6, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Its ALL either Magic or Theory - and both are not based in fact. Theory is about best guesses since we don't REALLY know how things work. And Magic is when it works and we readily admit that we really don't know how things work.
Even most things we consider facts are based on other theories that we think could be true because they seem to fit most case scenarios.


 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained - yet!  
by N2EY on December 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N7WY writes: "I think we should all consider -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_clerk_maxwell

to be one of the most insightful magicians of the last two hundred years."

I disagree!

Maxwell wasn't a magician - he was the exact opposite. Magicians create illusions we cannot explain easily; Maxwell explained things previously not understood, showing connections that simplified rather than complicated.

N7WY: "Think about how basic our lives would be if his four partial differential equations had somehow been wrong."

But they're not.

And Maxwell did make mistakes. For example, he thought that the medium of the 'ether' carried EM waves, and that there was a single frame of reference. But even these mistakes were of critical importance, because they inspired Einstein and others to prove that they *were* mistakes, and those proofs led to the theory of relativity.

Maxwell also did important work in things like optics, control theory, and photography. He produced the first true colour photograph, for example.

N7WY: "With no electrodynamic power we'd be living with candles and steam engines. We might have copper linked telephony and telegraphy, but we'd have no radio, TV, cellular telephony, or satellite navigation."

Maybe.

However, it should be remembered that Maxwell only produced the theoretical basis for those things, not working systems. It was the work of others, decades later, who turned the theory into reality. Marconi, Fessenden, Steinmetz, Tesla, Armstrong, Farnsworth and many others should be remembered as well.

This sort of thing is pretty common in science and engineering. First a theoretical foundation is laid, and only later is it translated into useful devices and systems.

For example, mathematicians like Boole described the theoretical basis of computer logic long before the 20th century. Babbage laid out all the necessary theory in the design of his "Analytic Engine". What is often described as the 'von Neumann architecture' of computers should really be called the Babbage architecture.

But it took the insights and dedicated work of J. Presper Eckert and John Mauchly, and their team, to build the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer, ENIAC, which was made public in 1946. All modern computers trace their ancestry to ENIAC.

Yes, other machines are sometimes claimed to be the "first computer". But they all lack something that ENIAC had.

Some were not fully electronic, using relays, motors and such for computation. Some were not high-speed, being orders of magnitude slower than ENIAC. Many were never fully operational, being abandoned before being complete. Many were not general-purpose, instead being designed to do a specific task and nothing else.

Some fail to meet the criteria several ways.

73 de Jim, N2EY

 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained - yet!  
by K6LHA on December 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY posted on December 7, 2008:

"N7WY writes: "I think we should all consider -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_clerk_maxwell

to be one of the most insightful magicians of the last two hundred years."

I disagree!

Maxwell wasn't a magician - he was the exact opposite. Magicians create illusions we cannot explain easily; Maxwell explained things previously not understood, showing connections that simplified rather than complicated."
--------------

Incorrect. Had you followed the link on the Wikipedia site you would have seen that Maxwell took ALREADY KNOWN laws (four: Gauss' Law, Gauss' Law for Magnetism, Faraday's Law of Induction, Ampere's Law with correction to include another part) plus the Lorentz Force Law derived by Maxwell in order to get what we now know as "Maxwell's Equations."

The REAL "magic" was Maxwell being able to see, to deduce the realtionship between those four basic laws of physics, plus the Lorentz Force Law and weld them together. No one else had done that. There were plenty of great minds that might have done it at the time, but Maxwell was the first.
.............

N2EY: "And Maxwell did make mistakes. For example, he thought that the medium of the 'ether' carried EM waves, and that there was a single frame of reference. But even these mistakes were of critical importance, because they inspired Einstein and others to prove that they *were* mistakes, and those proofs led to the theory of relativity."

There doesn't seem to be any proof that Albert Einstein "derived anything" from Maxwell's Laws. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity did get some justification by the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887 to establish the first known constant of the speed of light. Just search "Speed of Light" to find more on that constant, now accepted as 299,792,458 metres per second...and don't forget to include little things like the international acceptance of the length of the metre (1957 and 1983). James Clerk Maxwell lived from 1831 to 1879. Michelson and Morley did their interferometer experiment well after Maxwell's death. Heinrich Hertz (another short-liver) also did his experiments after Maxwell.
.............

N2EY: "For example, mathematicians like Boole described the theoretical basis of computer logic long before the 20th century. Babbage laid out all the necessary theory in the design of his "Analytic Engine". What is often described as the 'von Neumann architecture' of computers should really be called the Babbage architecture."

That last sentence is nonsense. You would be laughed out of the ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) saying that. Babbage didn't finish his all-mechanical calculator. While one of the high-level programming languages is named "Ada" after the "first programmer" (who didn't have a machine to program), that is the best you can hope for. :-)

If you would look around into other areas of electronics, you would find that AT&T did more practical work with 'Boolean Logic' just for their semi-automatic telephone exchanges...and the three electro-mechanical, programmable calculators in NYC during the WWII years.
............

N2EY: "But it took the insights and dedicated work of J. Presper Eckert and John Mauchly, and their team, to build the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer, ENIAC, which was made public in 1946. All modern computers trace their ancestry to ENIAC."

More nonsense and your claim was invalidated by a United States District Court in 1973, a lengthy trial over Eckert-Mauchley patents of a decade earlier. You tried this ploy over on rec.radio.amateur.policy some time ago and were shown wrong there. For others who want to see more of the "ABC" or Atanasoff-Berry Computer of 1937-1942, go to:

http://www.cs.iastate.edu/jva/jva-archive.shtml

http://www.sci.ameslab.gov/abc/trial.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Atanasoff

The only thing going for your validity is having graduated from the University of Pennsylvania. It should also be noted that Eckert and Mauchley's company went bust two decades before you went to U. of P. and rights to ENIAC had to be bought by a larger company in order to survive up to 1973 and the United States District Court case. That trial brought out the facts that the ENIAC designers (Mauchly and another) already knew about the ABC and had been to Iowa State to see it before 1942.

Consider that I'm not trying to insult you or embarass you, but simply trying to teach you a few things and correct a few mistakes.

36.5, Len AF6AY

 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained - yet!  
by N2EY on December 7, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY:"Maxwell wasn't a magician - he was the exact opposite. Magicians create illusions we cannot explain easily; Maxwell explained things previously not understood, showing connections that simplified rather than complicated."
--------------

AF6AY: "Incorrect."

No, Len. What I described is exactly what Maxwell's equations did.

AF6AY: "Had you followed the link on the Wikipedia site you would have seen that Maxwell took ALREADY KNOWN laws (four: Gauss' Law, Gauss' Law for Magnetism, Faraday's Law of Induction, Ampere's Law with correction to include another part) plus the Lorentz Force Law derived by Maxwell in order to get what we now know as "Maxwell's Equations.""

That's what I wrote, Len. Maxwell described the connections between those laws.

AF6AY: "The REAL "magic" was Maxwell being able to see, to deduce the realtionship between those four basic laws of physics, plus the Lorentz Force Law and weld them together."

That wasn't magic. It was the genius of Maxwell.

.............

N2EY: "And Maxwell did make mistakes. For example, he thought that the medium of the 'ether' carried EM waves, and that there was a single frame of reference. But even these mistakes were of critical importance, because they inspired Einstein and others to prove that they *were* mistakes, and those proofs led to the theory of relativity."

AF6AY: "There doesn't seem to be any proof that Albert Einstein "derived anything" from Maxwell's Laws."

I didn't say that at all.

AF6AY: "Einstein's General Theory of Relativity did get some justification by the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887 to establish the first known constant of the speed of light."

The MM experiment was done in an attempt to detect the "ether", which, according to Maxwell, was the medium that carries EM waves. Except the MM experiment could not detect any such "ether", which meant that for scientific purposes it did not exist, and EM waves require no medium. It also demonstrated that the speed of light in a vacuum appears to be the same for all observers, which became the basis of relativity theory.


N2EY: "For example, mathematicians like Boole described the theoretical basis of computer logic long before the 20th century. Babbage laid out all the necessary theory in the design of his "Analytic Engine". What is often described as the 'von Neumann architecture' of computers should really be called the Babbage architecture."

AF6AY: "That last sentence is nonsense."

No, it isn't. Babbage's "Analytical Engine" has all the elements of the classic von Neumann architecture. Babbage simply called the components by different names.

AF6AY: "Babbage didn't finish his all-mechanical calculator."

That's my point. His theory was correct but his Engine required technologies that were not available at the time.

AF6AY: "If you would look around into other areas of electronics, you would find that AT&T did more practical work with 'Boolean Logic' just for their semi-automatic telephone exchanges...and the three electro-mechanical, programmable calculators in NYC during the WWII years."

Calculators - not computers.

............

N2EY: "But it took the insights and dedicated work of J. Presper Eckert and John Mauchly, and their team, to build the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer, ENIAC, which was made public in 1946. All modern computers trace their ancestry to ENIAC."

AF6AY: "More nonsense and your claim was invalidated by a United States District Court in 1973, a lengthy trial over Eckert-Mauchley patents of a decade earlier."

It's not nonsense. It's historical fact. The 1973 trial was over patent rights, not over the first
fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer.

AF6AY: "You tried this ploy over on rec.radio.amateur.policy some time ago and were shown wrong there."

I'm not wrong. You are.

AF6AY: "For others who want to see more of the "ABC" or Atanasoff-Berry Computer of 1937-1942, go to:

http://www.cs.iastate.edu/jva/jva-archive.shtml

http://www.sci.ameslab.gov/abc/trial.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Atanasoff"

Consider the following facts about the "ABC" machine:

1) ABC was not high-speed. Its mechanical and electrical components limited its computational speed to a tiny fraction of the speed of all-electronic ENIAC. OTOH, ENIAC raised the speed of calculations by several orders of magnitude in a single leap.

2) ABC was not general-purpose. It could do only one thing: solve systems of up to 29 linear equations. It could do NOTHING else. ABC was not programmable, had no conditional-jump instruction, and was not Turing-complete. ENIAC was general purpose, programmable, had conditional jump and was Turing-complete. A team of programmers, originally all women, wrote software for ENIAC, in what was essentially machine language.

3) ABC used a mixture of electronic, electrical and mechanical components. ENIAC was electronic.

4) ABC was not fully operational until a replica was built. It never did any extensive practical calculations. ENIAC was announced in 1946, at which time it was fully operational. ENIAC was moved to the US Army's Aberdeen Proving Grounds, and used by the Army for a wide variety of computational tasks for almost a decade. It was shut down in 1955, still fully operational but eclipsed by newer machines that were direct descendants of ENIAC.

Look up ENIAC in wikipedia, which you cited, and it is described as the world's first general-purpose computer. The patents do not change that fact.

Heck, the ABC didn't even have a CPU! It was a single-purpose machine - a one-trick pony. There's no way it was a "computer" in the modern sense of the word.

AF6AY: "The only thing going for your validity is having graduated from the University of Pennsylvania."

And Drexel University. Two universities, two degrees.

But that is not "the only thing going" for my validity. What makes my statements valid are the facts.

What university did you graduate from, Len? What are your degrees?

AF6AY: "Consider that I'm not trying to insult you or embarass you, but simply trying to teach you a few things and correct a few mistakes."

The problem is that you are the one who needs to learn about the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer. It is your mistakes, not mine, that need correcting.

73 de Jim, N2EY
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by XU7ADQ on December 8, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Seeing what can't be seen and hearing what can't be heard?
Sounds like an LSD trip to me!
 
ABC vs. ENIAC  
by N2EY on December 8, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
AF6AY writes: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Atanasoff"

Let's see what else Wikipedia has to say on the issue:

From"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_Computer

"The Atanasoff–Berry Computer (ABC) was the first electronic digital computing device."

Not a computer - a computing device.

Wikipedia: "Conceived in 1937, the machine was not programmable, being designed only to solve systems of linear equations. It was successfully tested in 1942. However, its intermediate result storage mechanism, a paper card writer/reader, was unreliable, and when Atanasoff left Iowa State University for World War II assignments, work on the machine was discontinued. The ABC pioneered important elements of modern computing, including binary arithmetic and electronic switching elements, but its special-purpose nature and lack of a changeable, stored program distinguish it from modern computers."

Compare that to what Wikipedia says about ENIAC in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC

"ENIAC, short for Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer, was the first general-purpose electronic computer."

Not a "computing device" - a general-purpose electronic computer.

Wikipedia: "It was the first Turing-complete, digital computer capable of being reprogrammed to solve a full range of computing problems, although earlier machines had been built with some of these properties."

ABC wasn't a computer in the modern sense.

Wikipedia: "It [ENIAC] boasted speeds one thousand times faster than electro-mechanical machines, a leap in computing power that since then has typically taken fifteen years rather than just three."

"The completed machine was unveiled on February 14, 1946 at the University of Pennsylvania, having cost almost $500,000. ENIAC was shut down on November 9, 1946 for a refurbishment and a memory upgrade, and was transferred to Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland in 1947. There, on July 29, 1947, it was turned on and would be in continuous operation until 11:45 p.m. on October 2, 1955."

ENIAC was the world's first fully operational, high speed, general purpose, electronic digital computer.

As proven by the facts.

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware

for comparisons to other early machines.

73 de Jim, N2EY
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained - yet!  
by K6LHA on December 8, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY posted on December 7, 2008:

"... What I described is exactly what Maxwell's equations did."

AF6AY: "Had you followed the link on the Wikipedia site you would have seen that Maxwell took ALREADY KNOWN laws (four: Gauss' Law, Gauss' Law for Magnetism, Faraday's Law of Induction, Ampere's Law with correction to include another part) plus the Lorentz Force Law derived by Maxwell in order to get what we now know as "Maxwell's Equations.""

N2EY: "That's what I wrote, Len. Maxwell described the connections between those laws."

Please go back to your earlier message and read your own words. You did not write exactly what you claim you wrote. Remember that none of us are telepathic.
...........
N2EY: "And Maxwell did make mistakes. For example, he thought that the medium of the 'ether' carried EM waves, and that there was a single frame of reference. But even these mistakes were of critical importance, because they inspired Einstein and others to prove that they *were* mistakes, and those proofs led to the theory of relativity."

AF6AY: "There doesn't seem to be any proof that Albert Einstein "derived anything" from Maxwell's Laws."

N2EY: "I didn't say that at all."

Okay, how can you prove "inspiration?" :-) Doesn't "inspiration" lead to derivation?

A note to all mathematicians: Don't drink and derive... :-)
............
N2EY: "For example, mathematicians like Boole described the theoretical basis of computer logic long before the 20th century.

Incorrect on the history. Boole attempted to formulate ALL logic with his new symbolism. Early computers adopted some (not all) of Boole's symbolism to represent binary bit operations. Such symbolism persisted in universities long after the designers-builders of computers changed to their own symbolism of their 'computer logic.' Boole's symbolism was referred to as "Boolean algebra."

Some bad sentence structure would have others believe that Boole somehow 'invented computer logic' (i.e., the gate structures) with his symbolism.

Boolean Algebra is a convenient space-saving notation format (on paper) so it has long been used in university computer classes. In the industry it is simply a mixture of AND symbolism (the little dot commonly used in mathematics for a multiplication symbol or its alternate, the * commonly called colloquially a 'splat') and a + sign to denote an OR function. 'Parens' (parentheses) are used in conventional mathematics form to denote a term group that is acted upon as a whole by symbols outside the parens. I have yet to see any 'computer logic' use the remaining symbols that Boole adopted for his Logic symbolism.
............
N2EY: "Babbage laid out all the necessary theory in the design of his "Analytic Engine"."

That isn't recognized as such by the rest of the computer industry. Babbage conceived TWO calculators or 'engines' (most all contraptions were called that back then). He failed to finish both. His friend, the Countess of Lovelace, wrote up a brief description of how to program the latter 'engine' even though there was NO hardware to test it. The Countess of Lovelace' middle name was Ada and some later computer programmers managed to change an existing high-level program name to 'ADA.' [would Pascal have liked that?) :-)
..............
N2EY: "What is often described as the 'von Neumann architecture' of computers should really be called the Babbage architecture."

The 'architecture' nomenclature of most computers of today refer to the memory addressing scheme in relation to their programming instruction set. There are only two basic types, 'Harvard' and 'von Neuman.' One has the data addressing in one separate block of memory with program instructions in another block of memory. The other has both data and program instructions using a common block of memory. I suggest educating yourself on which is whick.

It doesn't really matter to modern electronic computer structuring but it makes a large difference in programming instructions. In most computing SOC ICs (Systems on a Chip) there is a derivative structure which subdivides memory addressing and includes on-board automatic instruction and data storage that isn't used in the exterior (to IC) memory. See detailed descriptions of Microchip's PIC series of microcontrollers or Intel's 8n86 IC family. Plessey in the UK had an airborne digital computer with separate data and instruction memory blocks.
.............
AF6AY: "If you would look around into other areas of electronics, you would find that AT&T did more practical work with 'Boolean Logic' just for their semi-automatic telephone exchanges...and the three electro-mechanical, programmable calculators in NYC during the WWII years."

N2EY: "Calculators - not computers."

Feel free to argue that point with the Bell System and their electronic central office equipment. :-)

A problem with too narrow a field of view is failing to note the relationship with older electromagnetic devices and their transition into all-electronic switching now used in telephone infrastructure central office systems. A relationship to communications is the DIGITAL trunk line exchanges between central offices. Try the "T1" structure for the first wide-use digital trunking at 1.544 MHz. T1 is described in detail in many texts and on websites.

Telephone infrastructure companies are not 'into' computing machinery per se but they have used Boolean Algebra to organize their automatic central offices. In a high school field trip I was in to the Rosenwald Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, IL, around 1949, one section of this large museum had a big exhibit of telephone equipment. One working exhibit was a working Tic-Tac-Toe 'machine' with its all-relay 'logic' visible under a clear cover. Just an exhibit for fun but it shows that 'logic' circuits can do a lot of complex things.
............
N2EY: "But it took the insights and dedicated work of J. Presper Eckert and John Mauchly, and their team, to build the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer, ENIAC, which was made public in 1946. All modern computers trace their ancestry to ENIAC."

ENIAC was funded by a contract with the US Army at roughly a half million dollars (1943 dollars) for one purpose: To compute 'firing tables' for field artillery. Such 'firing tables' had normally been calculated by hundreds of mechanical desk calculators (and hundreds of individual operators) prior to the USA entry into WWII. Several computer-calculators of the electronic-mechanical kind were rapidly built and used shortly after entry into WWII to assist in that task. In a different example, COLOSSUS in the UK was built earlier than ENIAC for the principle task of cryptanalysis (code breaking). Konrad Zuse' 1941 Z3 is considerd 'Turing capable' and I doubt anyone funded it except himself and possibly his parents.

In the 1973 trial over patent claims, testimony brought out the fact that John Mauchly (and an associate, Isaac Auerbach) had visited John Atansoff at Iowa State and seen the description of the 'ABC' or Atanasoff-Berry Computer that Atanasoff had written for internal university use. On the basis of that and other testimony, the U.S. District Court Judge ruled that Machly and Eckert did NOT invent the 'first electronic computer.' In modern terms, he "ripped off Atanasoff's ideas and tried to use them as his own."

The claim that ENIAC is "all electronic" is not exactly true. Its input-output system (vital) was conventional equipment and electromechanical. Its 'programming' system was a human-installed patch cords not unlike the IBM business machine punch card collating models also using patch cords (but on an interchangeable removeable patch panel. Later descriptions of ENIAC state that "changing a program could take weeks." ENIAC could only operate on one program at a time.

ENIAC's numerical storage is reported to be DECADE, not binary. It had no mass memory per se according to later descriptions.

The ABC had a drum memory for mass storage, but a very different kind: 1600 capacitors on the drum holding binary bit charges. This is almost exactly the same 'regenerative memory' that is used in all DRAMs or Dynamic Random Access Memory ICs. All of its operations were done directly in binary. For output it had a special circuit section for binary to decade conversion. Like ENIAC, the ABC used dual-triodes, principally the bistable kind then termed the Eccles-Jordan multivibrator (one of three distinct types of multis). It was dubbed 'flip-flop' in the industry well before such rubber sandals were on the clothing market.

The ABC began in 1939 as a RESEARCH project, was funded solely by university funds. The first demonstration unit was simple, intended only to prove the basic principles. Iowa State funded the final version on the basis of that first demo unit. Like ENIAC, input-output of ABC used conventional machinery that was available at the time. The final ABC version was about the size of a desk, weighed about 700 pounds (was not designed for miniaturization), used 280 dual triodes and 31 thyratrons. Work at Iowa State stopped the ABC development in 1942 due to other WWII needs: John Atanasoff took a leave and worked for the government on other things; co-developer graduate student Clifford Berry would soon pass away. No further work on the ABC was done and most of it was scrapped, the lab rebuilt for classrooms. Project notes were kept and Atanasoff's and others' memories were still active in 1973. A working duplicate of ABC was done in 1997 for a cost of $350,000 (in 1997 dollars).
............
N2EY: "The 1973 trial was over patent rights, not over the first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer."

Yes, the civil trial was over patent rights, but the TESTIMONY given by many during that trial rather proved that Mauchly (and by association, Eckert) were NOT the 'first.' Neither Mauchly nor Atanasoff were litigants in that trial, just testifiers. Details of the trial are given at several websites. Include the Judge's final decision wording as especially noteworthy.
............
AF6AY: "You tried this ploy over on rec.radio.amateur.policy some time ago and were shown wrong there."

N2EY: "I'm not wrong. You are."

A childish reply. Between 12 Nov 99 and 29 Oct 06 there were at least five separate threads of 'ENIAC being first' on newsgroup rec.radio.amateur.policy and you were not able to prove anything other than you are an ardent (overly so) alumnus of the University of Pennsylvania. Anyone can go to that newsgroup and use Google's own Search feature to find postings containing 'ENIAC.' I've given links to REAL history there and here. In no way could I alter any of those web links.
..........
N2EY: "1) ABC was not high-speed. Its mechanical and electrical components limited its computational speed to a tiny fraction of the speed of all-electronic ENIAC. OTOH, ENIAC raised the speed of calculations by several orders of magnitude in a single leap."

You need some quantification rather than generalizations. "High-speed" is a very relative term in computing machinery between the 1930s and now. :-)

As an example, my ancient Apple ][+ (circa 1980) with a 'slow-speed' clock of 1 MHz, running the Applesoft BASIC interpreter with only 32K bytes of RAM can probably zoom the pants off the first and last ENIAC in calculation rate. :-)

My circa-1992 PC with a clock rate of 20 MHz running MS FORTRAN 5.1 can make that Apple ][+ look like it is sitting still. Its replacement, a 32-bit eMachines PC has a clock rate that is 90 times faster than that early PC and the RAM fetch/store rate is over 100 MHz per word.

The BEST dual-triode flip-flop operating speed before 1955 was about 200 KHz. The HP-424 frequency counter first decade used two pentodes plus extra diodes per flip-flop to manage a reliable 10 MHz maximum counting rate. Without even looking at a schematic, I'd guess the ABC flip-flops were probably on the order of 50 KHz for 1939 circuitry; Atanasoff and Berry were not into research on 'fast' flip-flops nor any of the gating used, were concerned with lots of OTHER new things, such as the 'capacitor drum' that functioned as a DRAM.
...............
N2EY: "2) ABC was not general-purpose. It could do only one thing: solve systems of up to 29 linear equations. It could do NOTHING else. ABC was not programmable, had no conditional-jump instruction, and was not Turing-complete."

Well, I don't know the exact details of ABC programming, nor of ENIAC programming, only gross generalities of both as they are described by others. What is written is that Atanasoff wanted ABC to solve equations with UP TO 29 unknowns; as one was solved the process was repeated among the rest until all unknowns were solved. What is written is that ABC was programmed by some kind of patch cords...and so was ENIAC. <shrug>

Can you say that ABC "had no conditional-jump" capability? I wouldn't go THAT far. Conditional-jumps are common in instructions NOW, were so in 1967, and probably existed well before then, possibly by different names. Also, that ABC "could do NOTHING else" is egregious considering that general details of ABC program have been described.
..............
N2EY: "ENIAC was general purpose, programmable, had conditional jump and was Turing-complete. A team of programmers, originally all women, wrote software for ENIAC, in what was essentially machine language."

Whatever...:-) I wouldn't say a two-week program instruction entry was very "high speed." :-) Why is it 'significant' to note that the first progamming team of ENIAC was 'all women?' IBM punch card collating program boards could be programmed in minutes by any gender; those exsited before ENIAC.
..............
N2EY: "3) ABC used a mixture of electronic, electrical and mechanical components. ENIAC was electronic."

In the general description (from a link I posted) of ABC, it is described as to what it was in general terms. The DRAM equivalent of ABC was a drum of 1600 capacitors rotated by a motor. That same motor shaft also drove what is described as a 'base-2 to base-10 converter,' exact method of 'converting' not described. Magnetic drum memories were a fact of life in very early computers. As far as I know the capacitive DRAM of ABC is the first to employ regenerative methods of memory storage. A similarity is the ('Williams tube?') of electrostatic storage on the faceplate of a vacuum CRT.

Magnetic core memories don't fall into either SRAM or DRAM categories as we now know them. These follow-on memories had a 'read-modify-write' cycle for every memory address. Reading a data word would destroy its storage so a temporary flip-flop storage would hold that data so the Write cycle could put it back. For a data word modification the Modify cycle would do the new storage. Semiconductor DRAMs do not destroy the data on a Read but they must be 'refreshed' by internal Writes (part of the IC inside) to hold the data.
Semiconductor SRAMs will hold data as long as DC power is on. 'Flash' RAM will hold data at least 10 years (average) after power is removed.

The general description of ABC has the statement of "all numerical calculations were done electronically." Considering it had 280 tubes and 31 thyratrons (for output), plus the 60-variable DRAM words, that seems to be good for handling up to 30 50-bit data words and then grinding on 29 unknowns. :-)
............
N2EY: "4) ABC was not fully operational until a replica was built."

Error, Will Robinson, you can't make that claim with any validity UNLESS you know much more about ABC. Given the 3-year development time, this RESEARCH computation device wasn't intended to be "fully operational" unless Atanasoff and Berry were satisfed with its intended purpose. 'JV' and Berry are long gone and nobody has yet posted any of their research notes. A little thing called World War Two rather shifted many a civilian research project direction. <shrug>

N2EY: "It never did any extensive practical calculations."

Again you don't know that. After the initial concept prototype built in 1939 satisfied more funding at Iowa State, Atanasoff and Berry had at least two years to work on the final ABC. Iowa State must have had all of their notes and documents since the 1997 replica was fully 'operationsl.'
..............
N2EY: "ENIAC was announced in 1946, at which time it was fully operational. ENIAC was moved to the US Army's Aberdeen Proving Grounds, and used by the Army for a wide variety of computational tasks for almost a decade. It was shut down in 1955, still fully operational but eclipsed by newer machines that were direct descendants of ENIAC."

Those general terms sound awfully good, one reason why only generalities are used in PR puff pieces. :-)

ENIAC used base-10 numerics. Maybe there's other early computers designed that way although I don't recall seeing any. BASE-2 numerics have been standard in all other electronic methods of computation, i.e., BINARY.

As to "direct descendants of ENIAC," that is pure PR phrasing. You would have a hard time explaining that to the boys at Armonk, NY (IBM)...among others such as Sperry (which became Sperry-Rand which became Unisys)...or Honeywell...or a few of the early pioneers in compuation.

N2EY: "Look up ENIAC in wikipedia, which you cited, and it is described as the world's first general-purpose computer. The patents do not change that fact."

Wikipedia isn't - despite its appearance - a full authoritative source since the authors aren't divulged as an example. The ABC was a relative unknown until about 1954 when IBM wanted to litigate Sperry on patent rights. IBM interviewed Atanasoff in that year and astounded Atanasoff himself on being compared to the (then) much-publicized ENIAC and its creators.
............
N2EY: "Heck, the ABC didn't even have a CPU!"

The acronym 'CPU' (for Central Processing Unit) arrived after 1946 and may not have been in-use until a decade later. That's irrelevant.

N2EY: "There's no way it was a "computer" in the modern sense of the word."

Ahem...there's "no way" to say that ENIAC is any computer "in the modern sense of the word." My still working Apple ][+ or any Commodore C64 is more of a computer (in the modern sense of the word) than ENIAC ever was.

I would suppose that there still exist some IBM punch card collators in various companies, with their patch-cord programming frames. I daresay that any IT professional in the business would have a large chuckle on saying that patch-cord program instruction entry is 'modern.' Or even using 60 WPM Teletype machines for output (let alone input). Managers would have a great guffaw to consider mainframes that needed a whole room taking 160 KW of AC power to run 17,468 vacuum tubes, the whole thing weighing 30 tons...not to mention an up-time of only a few hours before someone has to go into it to change a tube.

ENIAC could do 5000 additions per second, 357 multiplies per second, 38 divisions per second. My 9-year-old HP-32S II (handheld) programmable calculator can do things faster than that. BTW, its three-cell battery supplied with it is still operating just dandy. My old Apple ][+ could do things faster than any ENIAC. The HP-9100 desktop programmable calculator could do numeric operations faster than that in 1968 when I first joined RCA EASD...and be programmed from the keyboard OR little magnetic card. The Hughes Aircraft digital computer designed for the F-106 fire control system in 1955 used vacuum tubes, had a magnetic drum DRAM equivanlent, could be programmed on the ground and would compute air data, missle arming-firing, trajectory plotting, display info for the pilot, yet withstood the full rigors of environmental conditions for supersonic fighters of its time. I only helped environmentally test that MA-1 fire-control system, don't remember its full specifications.
...........
N2EY: "The problem is that you are the one who needs to learn about the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer."

Yawn. Why should I have to learn about a failed computer company whose only product was shut down in 1955? In 1968 the RCA Corporation was debuting its Spectra-70 mainframe that would try to be a competitor to the IBM 360 mainframe in the computer market. [instruction sets were compatible, but it only got 12% of the mainframe market] My two PCs are faster than the IBM 370 by at least two orders of magnitude, have far more directly-available mass memory storage (260 GB). While those old IBM cake pan hard disk latter carriers were very large, they held less data than my first PC with only a 40 MB HD. <shrug>
............
N2EY: "It is your mistakes, not mine, that need correcting."

So, we are back to the kiddy playground with that remark? I can write more just off the top of my head...but many others have written up the REAL history of computing machines. Little organizations such as the ACM (a professional association, the world's first for computing devices) or the IEEE Computer Society are, I think, the better sources for REAL truth. Not only that, the U.S.District Court has already ruled on who was 'first.' :-)

Pardon me while I go off and do some program trials of a PIC microcontroller to be used in a REAL RADIO. 'Radio.' 'Memba that?' :-)

Consider that I'm not trying to insult you or embarass you, but simply trying to teach you a few things and correct a few mistakes.

73, Len AF6AY (not a graduate of Pennsylvania or Iowa schools)
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained - yet!  
by KL7IPV on December 9, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Good stuff Alan. Since I can't build radios for the cost that they can be bought, I "fool" with antennas instead. I build them, then I test them, try them and if they work leave them. But I continue to "fool" with them because it is fun and every now and then I get one that works really well. That is the fun in trying. I don't know all the finer things about all that goes into the antennas. I do know the basics and that isn't magic. Once I get the basics in the antenna the rest of it is having fum seeing what happens when small changes are made. Sometimes I get one that works, most times it wont. But again, trying and doing is the fun of it all. I learn from you, Steve, Len and others and then I try to apply that to building. All that does put some "magic" into the antenna and the radio. That is why I am still a ham after all these years. The fun is in the "magic"! Thanks again.
Frank
 
A Few Facts  
by N2EY on December 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Rather than try to correct the numerous mistakes in AF6AY's wordy posting, I'm going to do just a small sample.

N2EY: "Babbage laid out all the necessary theory in the design of his "Analytic Engine"."

AF6AY: "That isn't recognized as such by the rest of the computer industry."

You are not "the rest of the computer industry", Len.

AF6AY: "ENIAC was funded by a contract with the US Army at roughly a half million dollars (1943 dollars) for one purpose: To compute 'firing tables' for field artillery."

That was the source of the funding. But ENIAC could and did far more than compute firing tables in its nearly-a-decade operational lifetime. It was a general-purpose computer, not a one-trick pony. The Army used it for many purposes.

AF6AY: "In a different example, COLOSSUS in the UK was built earlier than ENIAC for the principle task of cryptanalysis (code breaking)."

And that's all it ever did. COLOSSUS could not even add two numbers. It was not Turing-complete, either.

AF6AY: "Konrad Zuse' 1941 Z3 is considerd 'Turing capable' and I doubt anyone funded it except himself and possibly his parents."

It was not electronic - it was electro-mechanical, which limited its speed.

AF6AY: "The claim that ENIAC is "all electronic" is not exactly true."

No such claim was made. The point is that its computing part was electronic.

AF6AY: "Its input-output system (vital) was conventional equipment and electromechanical."

So are a keyboard and a printer today.

AF6AY: "Later descriptions of ENIAC state that "changing a program could take weeks.""

Sure, because it was written in machine language. What was meant is the process of writing new software for ENIAC.

The very fact that programming could be changed means that ENIAC was general-purpose. The ABC machine was not, nor was COLOSSUS.

AF6AY: "ENIAC could only operate on one program at a time."

True of all machines of that era, and for years thereafter.

AF6AY: "ENIAC's numerical storage is reported to be DECADE, not binary."

Decimal, not decade. Makes no difference, in any case. Using binary does not make something a computer.

AF6AY: "It had no mass memory per se according to later descriptions."

Nor did any other machines of the time.

AF6AY: "The ABC had a drum memory for mass storage, but a very different kind: 1600 capacitors on the drum holding binary bit charges. This is almost exactly the same 'regenerative memory' that is used in all DRAMs or Dynamic Random Access Memory ICs."

It's not "almost exactly the same", nor is it "mass storage". The "drum memory" of the ABC was mechanically switched and very slow. Intermediate results were stored on paper(!) which turned out to be unreliable.

AF6AY: "All of its operations were done directly in binary."

Immaterial.

N2EY: "The 1973 trial was over patent rights, not over the first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer."

AF6AY: "Yes, the civil trial was over patent rights, but the TESTIMONY given by many during that trial rather proved that Mauchly (and by association, Eckert) were NOT the 'first.'"

ENIAC was the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer. Whether the specific patents were valid or not does not change that fact.

Atanasoff himself did not think he had built such a machine. He was surprised that anyone would compare ABC to ENIAC.

AF6AY: "You tried this ploy over on rec.radio.amateur.policy some time ago and were shown wrong there."

N2EY: "I'm not wrong. You are."

AF6AY: "A childish reply."

No, it's the plain and simple truth.

AF6AY: "I've given links to REAL history there and here. In no way could I alter any of those web links."

I've given links to REAL history too. Including a history by the US Army. Are you saying the ARMY is lying?

N2EY: "2) ABC was not general-purpose. It could do only one thing: solve systems of up to 29 linear equations. It could do NOTHING else. ABC was not programmable, had no conditional-jump instruction, and was not Turing-complete."

AF6AY: "Well, I don't know the exact details of ABC programming, nor of ENIAC programming, only gross generalities of both as they are described by others."

I've read some of the original papers on ENIAC. Seen and handled the original hardware. What I wrote are the facts.

AF6AY: "What is written is that Atanasoff wanted ABC to solve equations with UP TO 29 unknowns; as one was solved the process was repeated among the rest until all unknowns were solved."

Up to 29 equations with 29 unknowns. ABC could do nothing else. It was not Turing-complete in any sense.

AF6AY: "Can you say that ABC "had no conditional-jump" capability? I wouldn't go THAT far. Conditional-jumps are common in instructions NOW, were so in 1967, and probably existed well before then, possibly by different names."

ABC could not perform the conditional-jump function. ENIAC could.

N2EY: "ENIAC was announced in 1946, at which time it was fully operational. ENIAC was moved to the US Army's Aberdeen Proving Grounds, and used by the Army for a wide variety of computational tasks for almost a decade. It was shut down in 1955, still fully operational but eclipsed by newer machines that were direct descendants of ENIAC."

AF6AY: "Those general terms sound awfully good, one reason why only generalities are used in PR puff pieces. :-)"

Not a puff-piece. The actual history.

AF6AY: "ENIAC used base-10 numerics. Maybe there's other early computers designed that way although I don't recall seeing any. BASE-2 numerics have been standard in all other electronic methods of computation, i.e., BINARY."

Harvard Mark 1 was decimal. But that doesn't really matter; being binary doesn't make a machine a computer.

AF6AY: "As to "direct descendants of ENIAC," that is pure PR phrasing. You would have a hard time explaining that to the boys at Armonk, NY (IBM)...among others such as Sperry (which became Sperry-Rand which became Unisys)...or Honeywell...or a few of the early pioneers in compuation."

You're not one of them, Len.

AF6AY: "Wikipedia isn't - despite its appearance - a full authoritative source since the authors aren't divulged as an example."

Yet you used it as a source to "prove" your claims about the ABC machine. If it's good enough for you to use, why isn't it good enough for me to use?

AF6AY: "The ABC was a relative unknown until about 1954 when IBM wanted to litigate Sperry on patent rights. IBM interviewed Atanasoff in that year and astounded Atanasoff himself on being compared to the (then) much-publicized ENIAC and its creators."

Which means Atanasoff HIMSELF didn't think he'd built a computer!

Thanks, Len, you just proved what I've been saying all along. If the INVENTOR didn't think he'd built a computer, why should anyone else, unless they have a specific ax to grind?

AF6AY: "ENIAC could do 5000 additions per second, 357 multiplies per second, 38 divisions per second."

ABC could do 50 additions per second. There's high-speed for ya - 100 times the speed in just a few years.

AF6AY: "My 9-year-old HP-32S II (handheld) programmable calculator can do things faster than that."

More than half a century of development does speed things up a bit.

N2EY: "The problem is that you are the one who needs to learn about the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer."

AF6AY: "Yawn. Why should I have to learn about a failed computer company whose only product was shut down in 1955?"

ENIAC wasn't the only product Eckert and Mauchly produced.

You don't have to learn about anything unless you're interested in the truth. I don't think you are, though.

N2EY: "It is your mistakes, not mine, that need correcting."

AF6AY: "So, we are back to the kiddy playground with that remark?"

You're the one acting childishly, Len. Not me. Sorry if it bothers you that you've been proven wrong, but you have been.

AF6AY: "I can write more just off the top of my head...but many others have written up the REAL history of computing machines."

You can write whatever you want. Its connection to reality is another issue.

"73, Len AF6AY (not a graduate of Pennsylvania or Iowa schools)"

I don't think you graduated from any college or university, Len.

73 de Jim, N2EY
 
RE: A Few Facts  
by K6LHA on December 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY got very agitated over 'his' ENIAC not being first and posted on 10 Dec 08:

"Rather than try to correct the numerous mistakes in AF6AY's wordy posting, I'm going to do just a small sample."

Ahem...there's a NEW "magic" abounding in this article. I'd call it something like "Alma Mater Brainwashing" whether it is self-inflicted or thinking conditioned by some local group attended by the washee. Some examples are the ARRL or the Moore School of Engineering at the University of Pennsylvania. :-) <shrug>
...........
N2EY: "Babbage laid out all the necessary theory in the design of his "Analytic Engine"."

AF6AY: "That isn't recognized as such by the rest of the computer industry."

N2EY: "You are not "the rest of the computer industry", Len."

True, but the "rest of the computer industry" (not directly involved with 'radio' per se even though clock speeds and memory access rates are up there around 2 GHz) and some examples can be found as:

1. The ACM, or Association for Computing Machinery, a professional association made up of the IT industry's members, the first such in the world. I was merely a voting member of the ACM for two years. Many different Transactions are published on a wide variety of Information Technology interests by the ACM.

2. The IEEE, or Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, a worldwide professional association representing members of the entire electronics industry who began their Computer Society special interest group in the 1960s and publishes their own Transactions on IT. I am a Life Member of the IEEE.

3. Many different electronic industry associations which have worked out standards ranging from programming languages through hardware of many kinds as well as interconnection standards which couple hardware to enable programming to work. Too many to list here. Just don't forget the telephone infrastructure with its computer-based electronic central office switching (and cell site routing capabilities) and call recording. One can begin with the EIA or Electronic Industry Association and continue...

4. Information Technology equipment-language designer-manufacturers ranging from big daddy IBM through Hewlett-Packard (both the Agilent spin-off and the main company) through Digital Equipment Corporation through Control Data Corporation through all sorts of other mainframe and minicomputer companies.

5. Many different private websites-museums who have traced the technological connections from an ancient Arabic mechanical 'computer' of around 1900 BC on through modern electronic hand-held scientific calculators. Hewlett-Packard (the original) came out with the first scientific calculator in completely portable hand-held size, complete with all common transcendental functions and floating-point range for 12-decimal accuracy with decimal exponent multipliers from -99 to +99. The HP-35 started it. The HP-35 came out of consultant Tom Osborne's solo work at home using available digital devices housed in a wooden box. [Osborne was never a full-time employee of HP, always a consultant, was originally not accepted by HP but was later invited back for a presentation...see Michael Malone's "Bill and Dave" history of HP published a few years ago for a reference]

Babbage's TWO devices were never made by Babbage, nor was there any formal description of 'programming' for either. One can almost do the same for "Napier's Bones" or even the Jaquard Loom (for rug-making, taking its 'programming' from punched cards...the metal kind). Mechanical calculators have a LONG history of technological development from before Babbage's time to well after it. Babbage was NOT the 'first' to TRY to make a mechanical calculator. Many had succeeded before and after him.

A modern 'computer' is basically an arithmetic quantity calculator which can do both arithmetic and logical operations on binary quantities or 'words.' Note: In common PC use and some in the industry use 'byte' quantities of 8-bit binary words. That it has nice graphical displays and keyboard or mouse input is courtesy of PARC, the Palo Alto Research division of Xerox Corporation which originated both the GUI or Graphical User Interface and the common mouse; Xerox headquarters rejected both things as 'unimportant' to the corporation, a rather gross miscalculation on their part. To handle any large quantity of data at a reasonable rate, a form of mass memory storage is necessary. IBM developed the first magnetic hard disk which had its roots in magnetic 'floppy' (flexible recording media) disks, the first of those being the 8-inch size. Advances in integrated circuit memory went from the static and dynamic random access memory or RAM on through the fixed or 'blown' read-only memory, the ultra-violet light eraseable ROM to currently the 'flash' memory that can be both RAM and ROM and hold its contents with power off. All of that has been a steady connected growth that has connections with the early (working) mechanical calculators. That growth pattern has spanned centuries. Plural, not limited to just the 1900s.
..............
N2EY: "ENIAC was the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer."

Tsk, tsk, anyone can put a lot of selected, very-general unquantifiable adjectives before and after the word computer to claim something. :-)

N2EY really should have rewritten his sentence to be the following: ENIAC was the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose electronic digital computer MADE IN EAST PENNSYLVANIA. I would have NO problems with that full descriptive sentence.

N2EY: "Whether the specific patents were valid or not does not change that fact."

A Federal District Court (12th District, Minnesota) ruled in favor of the ABC as being the first. Sperry-Rand (which owned rights to ENIAC in 1973) did not appeal that ruling. The ACM has recognized the Atanasoff-Berry Computer as being first. The IEEE Computer Society has recognized that. The electronics industry (with possible exception of Unisys - which bought Sperry-Rand which had been Sperry who bought out Eckert and Mauchly) recognizes that. Even President George Herbert Walker Bush recognized that when he awarded John Vincent Atanasoff with the nation's highest technological achievement medal.

When Sperry bought out Eckert and Mauchly, they did a great deal of Public Relations work in promoting ENIAC, then its follow-on UNIVAC. Here was this HUGE electronic machine weighing 30 tons, needing a whole LARGE room to hold its assemblage of 17,468 tubes that needed 160 KW of electric power. When Sperry merged and became Sperry-Rand, they NEEDED publicity if only to compete with Big Daddy up in Armonk, NY. They had the money and they wanted to make more money (the purpose of businesses). IBM ruled the computer mainframe market for decades, was the clear market leader from the day they first rolled out their electronic computer.

By contrast, the ABC was done as a RESEARCH task before WWII (for the USA), wasn't designed to be a 'money maker' much less a product. Its only funding came from Iowa State funds and it received little publicity. Using only 268 vacuum tubes and 31 thyratrons, weighing only 700 pounds in a size about that of a desk, it wasn't impressive physically. The journalism community, not always cognizant of the value of numeric calculations, tended to disregard it. It didn't have a fancy name like "Mark I Whirlwind" or "Colossus" or anything like that. :-)
.............
N2EY: "Are you saying the ARMY is lying?"

This isn't a childish game of "you LIE!" John Vincent Atanasoff has been regarded as an early innovator and leader in digital computing...by the ACM, the IEEE, by the computer industry, by many books about the man and the true FIRST electronic computer, by many historians of IT growth. Further, after about 6 months of U.S. District Court testimony in 1973, the presiding Judge ruled that the Atanasoff-Berry Computer was the FIRST electronic computer. Sperry-Rand did not appeal that ruling.

I wouldn't say N2EY is "lying," just that he is so brainwashed by his affection for the University of Pennsylvania that he will not let go of cherished dreams 35 years after the books were closed on who really did make the first electronic computer.
..........
AF6AY: "As to "direct descendants of ENIAC," that is pure PR phrasing. You would have a hard time explaining that to the boys at Armonk, NY (IBM)...among others such as Sperry (which became Sperry-Rand which became Unisys)...or Honeywell...or a few of the early pioneers in compuation."

N2EY: "You're not one of them, Len."

Never said I was. :-)

However, just being in the Moore School and touching remnants of ENIAC doesn't make N2EY the world's foremost authority on Information Technology. :-)

For that matter, in the last three years of my US Army service I not only touched but operated no less than 52 HF transmitters, all having RF power outputs greater than 1 KW...all without ANY license from any radio regulating agency! 'Operating' includes both turn-on (cold start) as well as tuning and controlling modulation and carrier frequency. I doubt if the average radio amateur has ever operated that many in their lifetime. :-)

I've never claimed to be any world's foremost authority on anything. All I can go by for history before my time or done in other disciplines of electronics during my time is recorded in textbooks of fact...or in the Patent records of the Government Patent Office, some old law casebooks of the 1940s through the 1970s, tens of thousands of transactions of the ACM and IEEE and scientific periodicals and societies, even the USA Presidential papers.
..............
N2EY: "I don't think you graduated from any college or university, Len."

Is that really relevant or is N2EY trying some one-upmanship again? :-)

The United States Army did not require me to be a college graduate in order to operate ALL the equipment in a large military HF radio station. They never even required any 'license' to do that. The whole of my 'regular hours' of electronics work, including actual design-from-scratch engineering and responsibility (including drawing sign-offs and report writing) did not require any formal degree from a college or university. I don't recall signing any papers for my 1956 radio license test before the FCC nor the one in 2007 for my amateur radio license about my 'graduation' level, ANY level. :-)

I've freely given where and for whom I've worked in the electronics industry some time ago. You are free to contact any of those to ascertain if I did my job correctly. The FBI has, several times. I'm not, nor have I ever been up for any indictment with federal authorities even though I was born in Illinois. :-)

Speaking of the state of Illinois, their high school standards were rather strict and their mathematics classes were once considered being very good. At no time did Illinois high schools teach The Calculus, nor did they teach anything about (James Clerk) Maxwell's famous Equations. I learned those IN a college (or university...which is a group of colleges). You are free to search and find out which college (or university) I attended. Anywhere. :-)

I'm retired according to the Social Security Administration. I still do some work in electronics if it pleases me. My military records are stored at the big NARA records administration in St. Louis. Since N2EY refused to say who his employer was/is, I decided that it wasn't worth saying it. N2EY (as James Miccolis) has his employer (and patent assignee) noted on one patent grant (as co-inventor, not sole inventor) as 'Consolidated Railway Corporation' of Philadelphis, PA, commonly known as 'Conrail.' That patent is on a railway switching apparatus.
.................
N2EY: "You're the one acting childishly, Len. Not me. Sorry if it bothers you that you've been proven wrong, but you have been. You can write whatever you want. Its connection to reality is another issue."

Nothing bothers me personally that much...even those who do not want their imaginary universe troubled by the REAL thing. We real humans don't exist in any imaginary space-time continuum devised by any one person or the exaggerated claims of some PR marketeers...or some fantasy claims made by some in amateur radio websites. To use a catch-phrase of a once-popular TV show, "The Truth Is Out There." :-)

Truth, real truth as recorded and verified by many, IS "out there" on any current to past electronics technology. There's a LOT of it and I find most of it fascinating still. Too much for one individual's lifespan to learn in its entirety. I simply defer to the experts and specialists in the electronics industry, academia, law, and governments for the real "truth."

If one 'believes' advertising or marketing phrases as the truth, then one is stuck with multiple conundrums ('conundri?') and oxymorons (the phrasing, not the marketeers) all of whom say their product is 'best.' Obviously all of them cannot be the best. Only one is truly the best. Prior to October 1973, the ENIAC marketeering had convinced many that it was 'first.' As more and more IT professionals and academics learned from federal court trial records as who really was first, especially the testimony of witnesses, they became convinced that John V. Atanasoff was the 'first inventor' of the first electronic computer, the ABC. The industry and academia and government recognize the ABC as first. That leaves some U. of P. graduates who still believe that 'their' computer was 'first' because they were TOLD that.
.............
As far as "magic" is concerned, I think it just short of magic that all of the 17,468 vacuum tubes of ENIAC could work more than several hours before one of them failed, shutting down the whole thing. Back in 1946 times it would have been a wonder if any electronic system having over (maybe) 2000 tubes would work failure-free for a whole 8-hour day. Research the initial trials and tribulations of the BMEWS system that followed ENIAC for some examples...or the trans-continental frequency-diversity FM microwave radio relay of the Bell System...or the early IBM vacuum tube electronic computers, just to name three examples.

For more "magic" I would consider the invention of the transistor as just short of magic. It came about as an originally simple research project to investigate certain photo-electric properties of semiconductor junctions. Jack Kilby's first integrated circuit came about through his insight as a new hire at Texas Instruments having nothing to do during a plant-wide TI vacation period. It would be unfair to say a simple phase-shift oscillator circuit built entirely on one small chip is profound, but the fact that ALL components could be done there was profund-squared or even profound-many-times since the integrated circuit has become a basic building block for circuits and systems. The first PLL or Phase Locked Loop was patented in France in 1932 but it took the IC to make it practical as a sub-system for frequency control at integral multiples of its quartz-controlled reference frequency. The DDS that followed the PLL would be highly impractical without that IC technology.

One might say that ALL technology is a matter of "connections" as shown on Burke's PBS TV series of the same name. One thing leads to another which leads to still others. The matter of "who was first" could be those who climbed the walls of the ever-higher technological plateaus just on insight: J. C. Maxwell and his unifying equations; Hertz for proving the radio waves do propagate; Marconi and Popov demonstrating that 'radio' does work as a communications medium; deForest who added a grid to a Fleming valve diode to make current amplification from the voltage change on that grid; John Carson for formulating the three basic types of modulation; Armstrong for regeneration to multiply sensitivity, the superheterodyne, and FM broadcasting. All of those were had to do with radio. In computers there was Herman Hollerith who came up with non-magnetic punched card for data input, Atanasoff who put together the basic sub-systems of digital gating logic and the 'flying capacitor' dynamic random access memory for an electronic computer 1939 to 1942. Bardeen, Brattain, and Shockley brought everyone the transistor to replace the vacuum tube in nearly everything electronic. TI and Intel gave us the first ICs.

But, sort of like the 'importance' of OOK CW in communications, some believe in the "magic" that was only possible in their own 'hood. That stubborn belief is its own "magic." QED

Len Anderson, AF6AY
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by IRABREN on December 10, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
An fine article about "truth" in ham radio by a very knowledgeable and very helpful fellow with an excellent website on mobile radio.
Thanks !
Ira, KE5STP
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K2JF on December 11, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Don't tar and feather me for saying that the vertical I put up on my roof that has an impedance transformer at the base and no radials is outperforming my G5RV on all bands except 40.
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N2EY on December 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
AF6AY: "I'd call it something like "Alma Mater Brainwashing" whether it is self-inflicted or thinking conditioned by some local group attended by the washee. Some examples are the ARRL or the Moore School of Engineering at the University of Pennsylvania. :-) <shrug>"

No brainwashing, Len, just the facts. That you refuse to see them doesn't change them.

N2EY: "ENIAC was the world's first fully operational high-speed, general-purpose, electronic digital computer."

AF6AY: "Tsk, tsk, anyone can put a lot of selected, very-general unquantifiable adjectives before and after the word computer to claim something. :-)"

You should know, you do that sort of thing frequently.

What pre-ENIAC machine fills the description?

- Many machines described as the "first" were never fully operational.

- None were as fast as ENIAC, which was not only the fastest machine of its time, but 100 times faster than anything else for at least a couple of years.

- Most of the predecessors, including the ABC machine, were special-purpose and could only solve a few kinds of problems. Many could only solve one kind of problem.

- The few general-purpose computers that predated ENIAC used relay and mechanical processing, not electronic.

ENIAC was the first to combine all the above elements in a single machine. Even your vaunted ACM's magazine acknowledges that fact.

N2EY: "Are you saying the ARMY is lying?"

AF6AY: "This isn't a childish game of "you LIE!""

The Army history of computers says ENIAC was the first general purpose, high-speed, electronic digital computer. Is the Army right or wrong?

AF6AY: "John Vincent Atanasoff has been regarded as an early innovator and leader in digital computing...by the ACM, the IEEE, by the computer industry, by many books about the man and the true FIRST electronic computer, by many historians of IT growth. Further, after about 6 months of U.S. District Court testimony in 1973, the presiding Judge ruled that the Atanasoff-Berry Computer was the FIRST electronic computer. Sperry-Rand did not appeal that ruling."

So what? The ABC machine wasn't high-speed, nor was it general purpose. ENIAC was.

AF6AY: "For that matter, in the last three years of my US Army service I not only touched but operated no less than 52 HF transmitters, all having RF power outputs greater than 1 KW...all without ANY license from any radio regulating agency!"

Built by others, installed by others, paid for by others, and decisions made by others. You were part of a large team, Len, not the sole operator.

AF6AY: "I've never claimed to be any world's foremost authority on anything."

Nor have I. However, you sure do have a difficult time dealing with facts that don't fit your preconceived ideas.

N2EY: "I don't think you graduated from any college or university, Len."

AF6AY: "Is that really relevant or is N2EY trying some one-upmanship again? :-)"

If it's not relevant, why do you get so defensive about it?

AF6AY: "The United States Army did not require me to be a college graduate in order to operate ALL the equipment in a large military HF radio station. They never even required any 'license' to do that."

So what? I was operating an amateur radio station at the age of 13, before I even entered high school. You couldn't do that (not legally, anyway) until you were in your mid-seventies.

AF6AY: "The whole of my 'regular hours' of electronics work, including actual design-from-scratch engineering and responsibility (including drawing sign-offs and report writing) did not require any formal degree from a college or university. I don't recall signing any papers for my 1956 radio license test before the FCC nor the one in 2007 for my amateur radio license about my 'graduation' level, ANY level. :-)"

In other words, you never graduated from any college or university.

AF6AY: "At no time did Illinois high schools teach The Calculus, nor did they teach anything about (James Clerk) Maxwell's famous Equations."

Illinois high schools had low standards, then, because calculus (both differential and integral) are taught in Pennsylvania high schools. I had Calculus in high school, and it's taught in the local high schools here today. Got college credit for it, too.

AF6AY: "I learned those IN a college (or university...which is a group of colleges). You are free to search and find out which college (or university) I attended. Anywhere. :-)"

In other words, you never graduated from any college or university.

AF6AY: "Since N2EY refused to say who his employer was/is, I decided that it wasn't worth saying it."

You decided wrong, Len.

I don't tell you my employers or other personal info because it's not relevant to the discussion. And because you have a proven track record of using personal info as a way to insult someone.

Shall I post links to some examples of you doing that?

AF6AY: "That patent is on a railway switching apparatus."

Len, if you read that patent and think it's for "a railway switching apparatus", you really have reading-comprehension problems.

AF6AY: "Nothing bothers me personally that much"

Your angry, insulting reactions in your posts show that's not the truth.

73 de Jim, N2EY

 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K6LHA on December 12, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY posted on 12 Dec 08:

"No brainwashing, Len, just the facts. That you refuse to see them doesn't change them."

Historical fact of the ABC as first is acknowledged by the computer industry, the ACM, the IEEE, the U.S. District Court, the U.S. Patent Office, academia, textbooks, even video documentaries. I just go by the sum total of that history for reference as to who was first in electronic computers...as it exists NOW, not in some press releases of one university or the Sperry company in the 1940s. The historical facts are what they are, accepted by many, but disputed only by a few who have some imaginary agenda or belief system other than what has been recorded.

The only thing I "accept" is that some folks have some strange ideas and belief systems that just can't be changed when confronted with real, recorded unalterable historical data. :-)
.............
.............
AF6AY: "Nothing bothers me personally that much"

N2EY: "Your angry, insulting reactions in your posts show that's not the truth."

:-)
-----------------
The kick-off article was about RADIO, a good challenge to many emotional opinions regarding 'magic' about that. Now, having made a good living and career IN radio-electronics, I simply followed a good definition (made by another) that "Electrons, fields and waves operate by their own laws of physics, unaffected by human laws, desires, or emotions."

In other words, one has to know enough about those laws of physics to make electrons, fields and waves do the bidding of humans. In many (if not all) cases, the exact laws of physics are so complicated and inmeshed with each other that it is a very difficult task for one human to use them. That is why there are simplifications and special cases of those laws of physics to reduce the amount of information needed to make something.

Computers - by themselves - are not in the "radio" category. But, calculating machines/devices/gadgets/'engines' can and have greatly reduced the amount of numerical calculation required to handle physical laws of electrons, fields and waves for electronics. As far as I know, IBM's ECAP (Electronic Circuit Analysis Program) was the first program of its kind that could analyze a whole circuit or circuits from DC to any frequency. That spawned a whole heap of similar circuit analysis programs, each with its own advances to suit advancing technology of available computation hardware...culminating in the industry standard of SPICE. Antenna pattern calculations were largely approximations until the completion of NEC (Numerical Electromagnetic Code) by the Naval Postgraduate School in the 1980s. NEC was free for anyone to use; U.S. Copyright laws do not allow the government to copyright anything. The University of California at Berkeley made the SPICE core free from copyright on their own; the 'core' code is free but other companies that add 'wrappers' for input-output can copyright their whole program software packages.

To anyone in the electronics industry prior to about 1950, a whole computer program that could analyze an entire circuit or antenna could be described as "magic." It wasn't any magic, just an application of KNOWN laws of physics with a true high-speed computer...which had yet to be developed then. The "method of moments" center of NEC requires a large amount of temporary data storage, as did the calculation matrix of ECAP. At around 1950 the state of the hardware art in computation prevented wide use except for local mainframe installations that required punched-card input with chain-printer 'tab run' printouts needed with the first ECAP. NEC still wasn't being worked on or (perhaps) thought of until about the 1970s (conjecture). The point being that in this new millennium anyone with could purchase a whole personal computer for less than $4000 that had MUCH higher speed of operation, MUCH more memory storage, MUCH easier hardcopy, MANY more refinements (scanning, image processing, etc.) than was ever possible in the best mainframe computers of the 1950s to the 1970s.

"Magic" is a quick and easy term to apply to things not yet understood. It is an emotional label, a sort of dismissal of knowledge because the laws of physics are too complex and large to easily describe some things. "Magic" is a catch-all term that can even border on the paranormal, almost a belief system or a cult or even a 'religious' order. It can be wish-fulfillment as with the "magic" of a Harry Potter wand that can be simply waved to get things done; it certainly made J. K. Rowling a lot of money, enough to make her the second-highest income maker in the UK. :-)

We don't know but a few fragmentary ideas about how the human brain works. Just the same, a number of human beings in recorded history have made rather astounding discoveries, related known laws to a more unified whole, or come up with very new theories about all the sciences. Some kind of "insight" that each one had but no one else had at the time. I would described that insight as a kind of "magic"...at least until humankind finds out a LOT more about how human thinking works (if ever). All the rest is just application of physical laws as we know them now.

Humankind has competition somehow stamped into its genes. Competition is part of the most basic human motivation: Survival. One problem with competition is too much adherence to old 'firsts' as expounded by a few groups in any activity or endeavor. To some that adherence takes on mystical quasi-religious cult status and its worshippers can't abide any real-world proof beyond their belief statements. They will brand their opposition as being "insulting" or "angry" if confronted with reality and/or recorded history. :-)

Happy Holidays to all, Len AF6AY

 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N2EY on December 13, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY: "No brainwashing, Len, just the facts. That you refuse to see them doesn't change them."

AF6AY: "Historical fact of the ABC as first is acknowledged by the computer industry, the ACM, the IEEE, the U.S. District Court, the U.S. Patent Office, academia, textbooks, even video documentaries. I just go by the sum total of that history for reference as to who was first in electronic computers"

I think I see the problem.

I've never claimed that ENIAC was the first "computer", Len. Nor did I claim it was the first "electronic computer".

What I have written is that ENIAC was the first fully operational, general purpose, high speed electronic digital computer. That statement is true.

But that concept appears to be beyond you, Len, so you oversimplify it to "first computer" and then declare me to be in error. When, in fact, you're the one making the mistake.

What you're doing is to twist what I write into something completely different. IOW you're misquoting me, then arguing with the misquote. That's why you're wrong.

The ABC "computer" wasn't general purpose, nor was it high speed. It was a special purpose machine that did not even have a conditional-jump instruction and used line frequency as the clock. Its inventor did not even consider it a "computer" until approached for patent-war reasons more than a decade after work on the ABC machine was stopped.

What REALLY happened is this:

The "ENIAC patents" were pretty dubious at best, because of delays in filing and other legal technicalities. Sperry-Rand/Univac bought them, and for a decade or so used them to advantage in the infant computer industry. The market for computers was so small in the 1950s and into the 1960s that it was easier for competitors to simply pay royalties than to fight in court.

Where the owners of the patents went wrong is that they tried to make those patents cover practically every computer made, long after the technology had moved on. That was stretching things too far, and eventually Honeywell decided to mount a challenge.

They'd discovered the legal technicalities, the ABC machine and its inventor, and thought they could win. The computer market was growing and they wanted a bigger piece of the pie. So they lawyered up and won.

The patents didn't have that much longer to go, anyway, so there wasn't much sense in appealing.

At the time, the ACM and other folks weren't about to tell a judge that he was dead wrong. Nor were they going to contradict the majority of a growing industry, which employed a lot of them. Judges and employers don't like that sort of thing. So they made some nice noises about "the first computer" and the whole thing went away.

The history of patent litigation is full of such things. Just look at some classic cases in RADIO patents:

- Even though Lee DeForest couldn't even explain how his device or the disputed patent worked, the courts nullified Armstrong's regeneration patent.

- RCA, under the morals-free guidance of history-rewriter Sarnoff, stole patents from true geniuses like Farnsworth and Armstrong, then battled for years until either defeated (by which time the patents were often only of academic interest) or the true inventors' resources were depleted.

As for "the sum total of that history", it's not as clean-cut as you present it.

You mention a whole bunch of organizations as saying the ABC was the "first computer", but except for one court case you don't give any specifics of when, what or who.

You cited wikipedia about John Atanasoff, but then dismissed wikipedia because it didn't agree with you.

So I looked a little farther into the subject and discovered some interesting facts that prove you to be wrong.

For example, consider an article in the January 2008 issue of "Communications", the journal of the ACM:

In that article, ENIAC is mentioned on page 18 as "the prototype for most modern computers". A report from Johns Hopkins University is quoted which describes ENIAC as "the first modern computer".

For another example, consider an article listed on the ACM website under "ACM Tech News" for Feb 15 2006. That article, about an interview with J. Presper Eckert, begins with this description: "The watershed computing event of the 20th century--the unveiling of the ENIAC computer..."

Or consider this fact, also from the ACM website: In February 1996, the Princeton ACM/IEEE Computer Society chapters held a joint meeting. Here's a direct quote from the ACM website about that meeting:

"Women of the ENIAC

February 1996 marks the 50th Anniversary of the ENIAC computer at the Moore School of the University of Pennsylvania. The Association for Computing Machinery has marked this month as the birthday of modern computing, and the start of its own 50th Anniversary year."

Now, if the ACM and IEEE and "academia" are so sure about "the first electronic computer", why are all these things on the ACM website, or linked to from that website?

Why did both ACM and IEEE consider Feb 1946 and the unveiling of the ENIAC to be the birthday of modern computing?

If ACM and IEEE really consider the ABC machine to be "the first electronic computer", why isn't "the birthday of modern computing" when ABC became operational?

AF6AY: "...as it exists NOW, not in some press releases of one university or the Sperry company in the 1940s. The historical facts are what they are, accepted by many, but disputed only by a few who have some imaginary agenda or belief system other than what has been recorded."

Go to the the ACM website NOW and search on "ENIAC". You'll find many the things I quoted, and much more, which prove you to be wrong. These are recent articles, not "press releases of the 1940s".

You don't even have to be an ACM member....

AF6AY: "The only thing I "accept" is that some folks have some strange ideas and belief systems that just can't be changed when confronted with real, recorded unalterable historical data. :-)"

Well, Len, you described yourself pretty well there. "Real, recorded historical data" isn't exactly your strong suit...

AF6AY: "The kick-off article was about RADIO, a good challenge to many emotional opinions regarding 'magic' about that. Now, having made a good living and career IN radio-electronics, I simply followed a good definition (made by another) that "Electrons, fields and waves operate by their own laws of physics, unaffected by human laws, desires, or emotions."
Interesting, Len.

You mention your "having made a good living and career IN radio-electronics". What bearing does that have on the discussion? By YOUR value system, if someone else makes a better living in electrical engineering, their opinion is worth more than yours.

You also fail to mention that you've been a ham for less than two years.

And considering your recent difficulties in another eham thread, solving a simple transmission-line problem, perhaps it's a good thing we have all these computer software packages....

As for angry and insulting responses, here are links to a few of your classics:

http://tinyurl.com/yxq3rr

(jackboots?)

http://tinyurl.com/2k5mb5

(accusing a VEC of fraud? Say, wasn't it also an ARRL VEC that conducted YOUR license test? How would you feel if someone accused THEM of "fraud", the way you accused another?)

http://tinyurl.com/3ygllb

(feldwebel?)

There's lots more, much of it here on eham.net

73 de Jim, N2EY
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K6LHA on December 13, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY, once again trying to be a Contract Law Wording Barrister, posted on 13 Dec 08:

"I think I see the problem."

So does everyone else...which is, namely, "N2EY must be RIGHT regardless of what he wrote originally." :-)
...........
N2EY: "What REALLY happened is this:"

What 'really happened' is written up and documented almost as it happened. No "amateur supreme court justice" interpretation by any Univ. of Penn. alumnus is needed long after the fact.

I would suggest that N2EY simply drop this whole thing and try to concentrate on the original article subject. Or even approach the subject, not trying to "settle old scores" on old arguments attempted elsewhere in other venues.

9.125, Len AF2AY
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N2EY on December 14, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY: "I think I see the problem."

AF6AY: "So does everyone else"

Delusions of grandeur on your part. You're not "everyone else", Len. You're just one person.

AF6AY: "...which is, namely, "N2EY must be RIGHT regardless of what he wrote originally." :-)"

You're describing yourself, Len. Not me.

You see, it's not about me at all. It's about the facts. The problem is, you don't like inconvenient facts.

What I "wrote originally" is still true. You just can't handle the truth...

...........
N2EY: "What REALLY happened is this:"

AF6AY: "What 'really happened' is written up and documented almost as it happened."

But Len...first you said you look at the historical record NOW, and now you're saying you look at the documentation of decades ago.

I think you just select that which agrees with you and deny all the rest. Even the writings of the ACM and IEEE are ignored by you if they don't support your position.

AF6AY: "No "amateur supreme court justice" interpretation...is needed long after the fact."

Then why are you trying to play that role, Len? Looking at your many, many online postings in a variety of venues, as well as your enormous verbosity to FCC (all written before you were a licensed radio amateur), it's clear you see yourself as The Supreme Judge of How Amateur Radio Should Be. Anyone who disagrees is simply denounced by you, declared to be old fashioned or simply 'nuts'.

Shall I post some examples?

AF6AY: "I would suggest that N2EY simply drop this whole thing and try to concentrate on the original article subject."

I see. IOW, you want me to shut up, rather than admit that you've once again been proven wrong.

AF6AY: "Or even approach the subject, not trying to "settle old scores" on old arguments attempted elsewhere in other venues."

That's not what I've been doing, Len. It's what YOU do, whenever challenged.

Wandering away from the original subject is something you do all the time. But somehow it's OK when you do it, but not when others do it.

My original point was this: Whether it was Maxwell's equations or any of many other examples, there is often a considerable gap in time between the theoretical foundation and the practical application. Maxwell's equations can be seen, in hindsight, to predict the possiblity of "radio", yet it was decades before practical "wireless" communication became a reality.

That time-gap doesn't always exist, though.


"9.125, Len AF2AY"

The amateur radio callsign AF2AY is not currently assigned by the FCC, Len.

I think you are showing an unconscious wish to move to New York or New Jersey.

73 de Jim, N2EY
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by N2EY on December 14, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY: "I think I see the problem."

AF6AY: "So does everyone else"

Delusions of grandeur on your part. You're not "everyone else", Len. You're just one person.

AF6AY: "...which is, namely, "N2EY must be RIGHT regardless of what he wrote originally." :-)"

You're describing yourself, Len. Not me.

You see, it's not about me at all. It's about the facts. The problem is, you don't like inconvenient facts.

What I "wrote originally" is still true. You just can't handle the truth...

...........
N2EY: "What REALLY happened is this:"

AF6AY: "What 'really happened' is written up and documented almost as it happened."

But Len...first you said you look at the historical record NOW, and now you're saying you look at the documentation of decades ago.

I think you just select that which agrees with you and deny all the rest. Even the writings of the ACM and IEEE are ignored by you if they don't support your position.

AF6AY: "No "amateur supreme court justice" interpretation...is needed long after the fact."

Then why are you trying to play that role, Len? Looking at your many, many online postings in a variety of venues, as well as your enormous verbosity to FCC (all written before you were a licensed radio amateur), it's clear you see yourself as The Supreme Judge of How Amateur Radio Should Be. Anyone who disagrees is simply denounced by you, declared to be old fashioned or simply 'nuts'.

Shall I post some examples?

AF6AY: "I would suggest that N2EY simply drop this whole thing and try to concentrate on the original article subject."

I see. IOW, you want me to shut up, rather than admit that you've once again been proven wrong.

AF6AY: "Or even approach the subject, not trying to "settle old scores" on old arguments attempted elsewhere in other venues."

That's not what I've been doing, Len. It's what YOU do, whenever challenged.

Wandering away from the original subject is something you do all the time. But somehow it's OK when you do it, but not when others do it.

My original point was this: Whether it was Maxwell's equations or any of many other examples, there is often a considerable gap in time between the theoretical foundation and the practical application. Maxwell's equations can be seen, in hindsight, to predict the possiblity of "radio", yet it was decades before practical "wireless" communication became a reality.

That time-gap doesn't always exist, though.


"9.125, Len AF2AY"

The amateur radio callsign AF2AY is not currently assigned by the FCC, Len.

I think you are showing an unconscious wish to move to New York or New Jersey.

73 de Jim, N2EY
 
RE: Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by K6LHA on December 14, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
N2EY sailed up de river denial on 14 Dec 08:

N2EY: "I think I see the problem."

AF6AY: "So does everyone else"

N2EY: "Delusions of grandeur on your part. You're not "everyone else", Len. You're just one person."

Oh, my, all the members of the ACM, the IEEE, the Information Technology specialists, the computer designers and manufacturers, academics at every university except Univ. of Penn. (especially Dr. John Gustafson of Ames Laboratory) are each "one persons," each with "delusions of grandeur?" :-) [no clone left unturned]

Well, some of all those "one persons" really are grand. I've never claimed to be grand. Not even a piano, although I was a baby a long time ago. I'm worth much more than a 'grand' now. :-)

AF6AY: "...which is, namely, "N2EY must be RIGHT regardless of what he wrote originally." :-)"

N2EY: "You're describing yourself, Len. Not me."

Tsk, tsk, the old 'mirror ploy' again, ey? :-)
.............
N2EY: "You see, it's not about me at all."

'Ho ho ho' laughed the Jolly Green Giant and Santa Claus together... :-)

[one froze his assets off, the other made a notation of naughty, not nice]
.............
N2EY: "I see. IOW, you want me to shut up, rather than admit that you've once again been proven wrong."

Mais non, mon frere, im-poss-ib-le! Nobody, but NO BODY can tell the grate Jimmy to shut up! It's been tried. But he's been convicting hisself so long...nobody needs to try him anymore...:-)
.............
AF6AY: "9.125, Len AF2AY"

N2EY: "The amateur radio callsign AF2AY is not currently assigned by the FCC, Len."

GOTCHA! :-) EMINENTLY PREDICTABLE!

Jimmy he look and look and look and ruler-spank anyone he no like for a typo! Tsk, tsk, lots of folks on all articles make typos all the time. Jimmy he no make smartash remarks about them. Only a few us get the 'Sister Nun of the Above' treatment type treatment from Boy Wonder! :-)

By the way, "9.125" is 1/8 of 73. That's how much 'regard' I have for Boy Wonder. <shrug>
............
N2EY: "I think you are showing an unconscious wish to move to New York or New Jersey."

What?!? And leave Show Business?!? :-)

<up tagline of CBS Radio's audio docudrama>

"What day was it? A day like all days, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times...and you...were there!"

<segue for 6 bars of theme music, up voice-over>

"This has been another episode in the Len and Jim Show, brought to you by the good folks at e-ham.net and sponsored by the makers of fine amateur radio equipment and supplies for the ham radio world of 2008. Tune in tomorrow for another episode where Jim sails farther down denial hoping beyond hope that the world will finally cede him the ultimate authority of judgement he feels he richly deserves..."

<cut, take network feed>
 
Some Things Just Can't Be Explained!  
by W0NRK on December 18, 2008 Mail this to a friend!
Or, as Arthur C. Clarke famously said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (A. C. Clarke's third law of prediction.)


 
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