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The Case for PEP
Eric P. Nichols (KL7AJ)
on
February 26, 2009
View comments about this article!
This article will probably be of little interest to two classes of radio amateurs: the die-hard QRP operator who sees no need for ever running high power, and the ham who thinks he must run 1.5 KW at all times, “just because he can.”
Instead, I'd like to provoke some thought about the right reasons for using high power, and the best way of going about it. This discussion will mainly on SSB, but with a few references to CW.
Let's start the discussion off with a question. What is better: a 100 watt SSB transmitter running 10dB of compression, or a 1KW SSB transmitter running super clean?
This question has been ruminated on since the earliest days of phone, sometimes with good empirical data, sometimes not. When does it help to have pep in your P.E.P.?
To make any progress in this discussion, we need to address a fundamental law of physics:
Power equals energy over time. It's a law of the universe to which any meaningful discussion is inextricably shackled.
All other things being equal, we can talk for ten minutes with 100 watts for the same cost as talking a minute with 1000 watts.
What are we really doing when we run speech compression? We're really compressing more USEFUL TIME into a given amount of available time. Or, perhaps better stated, we're increasing the amount of time at which a voice signal is at a certain amount of power. In reality, we can't really compress time. But we CAN eliminate useless chunks of time.
Since the human voice is highly variable over a period of time, we have a lot of time during which any “chunk” of speech (most generally a syllable) that doesn't do us a whole lot of good. The concept of speech compression then, is to bring every part of our signal (in time) up to the maximum available power. What we are doing, actually is increasing the ENERGY without increasing the power.
Assuming equal efficiency, over a substantial period of time, a 100 watt amplifier with 10 dB of compression will “cost” as much as a 1 KW amplifier with no compression. A highly compressed signal, for a given P.E.P., somehow “feels” like it is doing more. It's certainly burning up more energy.
But is it really doing us any good?
Let's look at some pros and cons. Again, let's look at two different power amplifiers, but with equal EFFICIENCY, to keep things on the same footing.
Compression definitely does a few things for us. It eliminates overshoot that could drive our amplifier into non-linearity, causing splatter, intermodulation distortion, and other ills. Paradoxically, putting up with a little intermodulation distortion (which any compression scheme creates) at a low-level, reduces a LOT of intermodulation distortion at HIGH levels. So a little bit of peak clipping is definitely useful.
It's definitely easier to build a 100 watt R.F. amplifier than a 1 KW amplifier. We can do a lot of aggressive compression, as well, with a normal 100W rig without any outboard accessories. 100W is just SMALLER than a kilowatt. A well-compressed 100W signal is more than ADEQUATE for most H.F. communications.
Aggressive speech compression just sounds “louder” at the other end. Is it any more intelligible? This is the big question. As we will investigate later, we might find that lots of compression is more noticeable than useful.
Now some pros about high power. A clean, high power linear amplifier, adjusted properly, can be run with lots of headroom. It can safely handle large voice peaks without saturation, splatter, and other untoward effects.
Very high peak powers can be achieved with very low AVERAGE power levels. You can make an effective 1 KW power amplifier, running an uncompressed signal, with no more “heavy iron” than a 100W transmitter running lots of compression. In fact, in RADAR, it's no problem to build a 1 Megawatt peak power transmitter with a 100 watt klystron! It's all a matter of our original equation. Keep the time down, and the power can go up! It's ENERGY that eats up transmitters, not power. (Within limits).
Now, an uncompressed SSB signal is not likely to have a 10,000:1 peak-to-average ratio as a radar might...but a 10:1 peak to average ratio is not unusual at all for the human voice...especially the MALE human voice. (Female voices actually have a lot higher energy density, on the average.)
Averaged over many cycles, a 1KW amplifier may be no more expensive than a 100 watt amplifier with lots of compression, ignoring the initial investment, of course.
Now, here's an interesting rub. By clipping the peaks of most SSB signals, we greatly increase the average to peak power. Theoretically, this should give us a real edge in communications effectiveness.
HOWEVER...as it turns out, the first peaks to get lopped off by clipping (the lower branches of the Christmas Tree, if you're looking at a typical monitor scope), have the greatest amount of USEFUL intelligence!
The bottom line of all this is that FREQUENCY equalization is of FAR greater importance than compression in increasing distant intelligibility. Chip Margelli of Heil Sound gave a graphic demonstration of this at the Alaska Hamfest last fall. It also means that, since you AREN'T going to be using a lot of compression, you'd best have some headroom available! Chip's optimum system used LOTS of equalization and minimal compression.
Now, someone is always quick to mention something like, “How about those infinite clipping tests that Bell Labs did in the late 1950s? Didn't they PROVE that just outputting the zero crossings of any audio signal has the MOST increase in intelligibility?”
The infinite clipping tests were done with NON-BANDWIDTH LIMITED SYSTEMS. This is the crucial point. The greater your bandwidth, the more clipping and compression will do for you. In a narrowband system, such as amateur SSB, the infinite clipping model is greatly compromised.
So, do you need that 1.5 KW?
Probably not. But it can't hurt to have some pep in your P.E.P. when you really need it.
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The Case for PEP
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by K9MHZ on February 26, 2009
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Nice article, Eric. Hopefully without digressing too much....I remember in the 70's, the rage in audio gear was owning a really, really big amplifier. I think Pioneer was making some monsters. Anyway...."headroom" was the word everyone tossed around, rather than how much big sound you could get out of one of those beauties.....two channels, of course.
FWIW,
Brad,
K9MHZ
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The Case for PEP
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by KQ9J on February 26, 2009
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Good article. It never ceases to amaze me that I run into amateurs on the air that avoid using their processor like it is something bad. Anything can be overdone, but a little compression can go a long way in improving the intelligibility of your signal. Guess they never worked at a broadcast station.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KF4HR on February 26, 2009
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Eric, you forgot about the over-the-top contester that feels the need to run 1500 watts AND compression, to compensate for their poor operating skills, or to get the competitive edge. Or the DX'er trying to bust through a big pile up. And of course, like you mentioned, there's the ego 'because I can' thing.
You touched on what difference higher power levels mean at the receiving end. Bottom line, the difference between 100 watts, and 1000 or 1500 watts, via the S-meter and reception wise, is disappointing small compared to cost and energy involved. Given the choice between an HF Amp and a better HF antenna, I'd opt for the better antenna.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KF7CG on February 26, 2009
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Another factor in favor of some compression, it keeps the S meter reading up. The amount it helps depends on the receivers agc time constant.
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The Case for PEP
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by KB2DHG on February 26, 2009
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Thank you so much for this good article... I got some good advice from it. just to add a foot note, Having power is an advantage for some unfortunately some of us can't afford an amp or have no room in our shacks. To me the better option is to put up the very best antenna possable to acheive better results.
Most of my 23 years on the air I only used 100 watts. I have worked the world with 100 watts I contribute my good signal reports to my antenna system. Even when I fired up the amp the few times I did, the signal reports did not improve that much where it mattered!
So not to dishonor your good article, I would put more into an antenna than an amp!
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The Case for PEP
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by WB4LFC on February 26, 2009
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Good article.I would like to have a few more watts and a beam myself.I can't afford the hardware.
It is hard for us with just 100 watts and a dipole to work DX against the "Big Guns" and most of them don't mind walking on you.I have noticed over the years the more power the operator has the more impolite he is.
They are not smarter than me just richer.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W4VR on February 26, 2009
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I've been using speech processing for the past few decades with 1 kilowatt peak power output. The key is to not crank things in the audio department up to high to sound good, reduce splatter, and have a pleasant, intelligible signal to listen to.
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The Case for PEP
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by KH6VP on February 26, 2009
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First of all 100 watts plus 10db compression is not 1000 watts. 10dB compression gets you closer to the 100watts maximum envelope power, not closer to 1000Watts.
Secondly, measuring power with db is just not real enough. Radios are not proportional devices. In my experience, it is not just the 10dB diference between stations running 100 and 1000watts. It is the ear that discerns the difference and makes it so much more enjoyable listening to a 1000 watt station than a 100 watt station.
If the band conditions require me to run 1000 watts, I will and do. I am sure my listener will enjoy a signal with a punch much more than a signal that is just S5.
Of course it is better to have a beam antenna than an amplifier, but not everyone has real estate for such a move. Much better to have a good quality dipole or vertical, a 1KW balun and a good linear. The other side of the QSO will thank you.
Peter, KH6VP
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The Case for PEP
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by LU2DFM on February 26, 2009
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Take 40 or 20 meters any contest weekend, and you can easily verify the fact that a HUGE number of powerful stations are putting out lots of splatter and wideband signals; this is sad, because reveals the poor operating practice of these amateurs, which may be ignorant or simply don't care.
I'm not give a dime about QRP vs. QRO. If someone can afford a legal limit linear amp, and can afford running it full blown in every QSO he/she do, it's fine with me as long as the signal out of that amp is clean as it has to be.
Sadly, this is not the case in the vast majority of QRO operators out there. They took away 5kHz or more spectrum to tell is raining in their butt.
Nice article, as usual from you.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W8JI on February 26, 2009
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Not understanding how the system works makes this all an emotional issue.
If someone ran 100 watts from a quiet location, processing or not, it would be an absolute excercise in frustration. A bigger antenna would not even cure it.
Local noise level and antenna directivity, *NOT ANTENNA GAIN OR EFFICIENCY* , determines receive capability.
Effective radiated power determines the transmitting signal level and range.
In an environment with higher noise floor 10 watts can be too much power. In a quiet location, 1500 watts might not be enough. It is all dynamic, depending on what the noise floor is on both ends of the path, so there is no cut and dried rule.
As for processing, it does nt have to add bandwidth. Even severe levels of processing don't have to add bandwidth, and should not add bandwidth if the processing system is a good design. Processing, even high levels of processing, should actually limit bandwidth.
The real problem is PA systems in radios are very marginal for IM performance. Typically we find -25 to -30 dB one tone of two or -30 to -35 dB PEP IM3 in our transistor radios. That's really not very good. Most triode cathode driven amps are -35 to -45 dB one tone of two, or -40 to -50 dB PEP. Tetrode amps are not nearly as good as a general rule and neither are bipolar transistor amps, but generally the radios are a big problem.
What I see some people do, and this includes contesting people, is turn the power limiting pots inside radios up. One contestor kept bringing FT1000MP's down here and I'd set the power pots back to 100 watts, the next time I'd see the same radio the pot would be cranked up to 130-140 watts again.
Those 1000MP's, like many radios, have marginal transmitter splatter performance at 100 watts. Crank them up to 130 watts and they give almost class C bandwidth.
It's always best to understand how the systems actually work if we really want to cure a problem.
73 Tom
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by LU2DFM on February 26, 2009
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I repaired a TS-450 some time ago; the radio was a contester radio for a while, before changed owner two or three times. It was putting nearly 170 watts out...
You have to had view the output of this one.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K1BXI on February 26, 2009
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Nice article Eric, but I can see it turning into a "amp vs no amp" thread. Me?.......lets just say I like to have some head room. Remember, garbage in is garbage out.
John
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K1BXI on February 26, 2009
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Nice article Eric, but I can see it turning into a "amp vs no amp" thread. Me?.......lets just say I like to have some head room. Remember, garbage in is garbage out.
John
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The Case for Common Sense
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by AI2IA on February 26, 2009
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The next day that you use your rig make it a point to try stepping down your power level on every QSO that day.
Start a QSO at any power level you deem appropriate. Reduce you power level during the QSO in five Watt decrements during the QSO until you find the lowest comfortable level to maintain the QSO. Note the results.
You will learn more from this little procedure than all the long-winded discussions and posts on compression, amplifiers, QRP vs. QRO, etc., etc. You will improve your operating skill.
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The Case for PEP
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by WW5AA on February 26, 2009
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I usually run 100 watts and 15 db of compression. If thats not enough to work the DX through the pile up I go to 500 watts. IF I still can't break the pile up, which is rare I go to legal limit.
Life is too short for QRP, although it is fun at times.
73 de Lindy
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by AA4PB on February 26, 2009
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The bottom line is, as Tom indicated, the only thing that matters on the receive end is the signal to noise ratio. If they guy has a high noise level then you are going to have to deliver a lot of signal to be heard. If he has a low noise level then you need to deliver a lot less signal.
If you have a low noise level then on average you will copy stations that don't hear you so well. If you have a high noise level then you'll work anything you can hear - on average.
Yes, running 10dB of compression with 100W will move your average signal closer to 100W, not 1000W. However, the guy running 1000W with no compression might also have an average signal near 100W.
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The Case for PEP
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by KL7AJ on February 26, 2009
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I've had a few people ask me, "What's this infinite clipping business?" I found one of the earlier articles here.
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JASMAN000020000001000042000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes
I think there are some ARRL archives as well. I'll see if I can dredge them up.
There is a lot of psychoacoustic stuff involved here beyond the mere electronics. I think Heil Sound is doing a good job of addressing this.
Eric
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC0RBX on February 26, 2009
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So, this makes me wonder, if you run higher compression, do you then also need to run higher octane? Oh. Wait...wrong website.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by AA5JG on February 26, 2009
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"It is hard for us with just 100 watts and a dipole to work DX against the "Big Guns" and most of them don't mind walking on you"
I just got my 5 band DXCC certificate in yesterday. Earned with 100 watts and a dipole or vertical. I can break most pileups with a similiar setup, you just need operating skills and some luck.
73s John AA5JG
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KT8K on February 26, 2009
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I use a bit of compression sometimes (in phone contests, mostly). I don't like to use much, though, as I fear it will screw up the frequency equalization and actually reduce the intelligibility of my signal. I have heard too many over-compressed signals in my time, and I have no use for distortion. I want a crystal clear signal with the high fidelity that will make it intelligible even when it is barely audible (which probably happens a lot considering my practice of running 5w virtually ALL the time).
Is my caution warranted?
As for Big Power, for me, life's too short for QRO. It's too much like shooting fish in a barrel.
Running QRP all the time, as I do, is a gas. When I operate with 100w at Field Day I feel like a Really Big Gun! That's fun, but so is working JA on 80m with 5w to a dipole and telling my friends I did it with "less power than a night light."
So ... am I too worried about over-compressing? At my usual 5w should I just not worry about it? I suppose the bottom line is to hear my signal on the air via recording, remote receiver, or something.
Nice article, and thanks to all contributors.
73 de kt8k - Tim
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The Case for PEP
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by G6NJR on February 26, 2009
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At last a modicum of sanity .
I have been saying for the longest time there is no need at all for more than 100 to 150 watts the amount of times i have been totally flattened out by the Kilowatt head cases is too big to count there are not many places in the world i have not worked on HF mainly on 15 Mtrs from the mobile with 100 watts home brew mobile antenna i get thru maybe not as quick as the Kilowatt head cases but i am still there .
There is also the case for all this excessive power just creates more noise more adjacent channel rubbish needing bigger seperation between stations making it harder in the first place then we have to other thing this darn stupid ARMCHAIR copy rubbish if you want broadcast quality then get a broadcast license move to the broadcast bands and be happy not needed on Ham Radio sorry and all that but
Pete G6NJR (must refit the radios in the new car in the next month or so)
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by AF3Y on February 26, 2009
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WB4LFC said: "It is hard for us with just 100 watts and a dipole to work DX against the "Big Guns" and most of them don't mind walking on you.I have noticed over the years the more power the operator has the more impolite he is."
First, UNLESS you are one of the little pistols with the "ME FIRST" attitude, you should NOT have trouble working DX. I dont need to go into the basics of DX, like listening, establishing how the DX is working, picking the better time etc. etc. If you dont know them by now, you probably wont ever have much success working DX. Many hams have worked the world with 100 watts and and a wire. Many others have worked the world withk 5 watts and a wire. It is NOT hard to work DX with 100 watts and and a dipole IF you will work at it.
Second your statement about most QRO hams "walking on you" (I assume you mean in a pile-up?) works two ways. Little pistols are doing some walking on others too, we just dont hear you. In a decent pileup, you WILL get walked on, again and again. That is part of hanging in there and breaking the pile. And, your statement that hams with more power are more impolite is a mis-guided generalization of all hams who run QRO, and just NOT true. I have heard obnoxious hams with and without big signals.
If you are bothered by QRO while working DX, I have two suggestions for you:
1. Upgrade and see how it cuts down the size of the pile while working in the Extra portion of the band. Most rare DX stations work much more there, by the way.
2. Sharpen up your CW skills, and I know you will find working DX a lot easier. I never work QRO on CW. It is not needed, in my opinion.
73, Gene
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W5WSS on February 26, 2009
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How many operators could turn down their power When they get a report of 5/9+30? I have listened to this complaint for a looong time. I will not get specific but here is an example..Ok Mr.Smith could you repeat that because the same ole guy over on 3khz up signal is stronger here than yours! and even though he and I have discussed this issue many times it does not change on a daily basis. He blames it on propogation feild strength via skywave and everything else thinkable even though his output is at 1.5kw, and yet he will not budge It stands to reason that lowering the power is the solution since both operators claim their station is perfectly clean stating since it is not my trannsmitter than maybe the problem is your receiver. This is a clever excuse that is selfish period. There is validity to his position plausable deniability...whatever! Amps are nice to have when we are at the bottom of the cycle etc. And we need the power to make a usually dx contact but....run that amp 100% of the time to talk a 5/9+30 daily schedule some people.
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The Case for PEP
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by AA8X on February 26, 2009
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When the Nazis who run homeowner associations restrict your rights to have antennas, then running high power is the only answer.
Bob
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K6AER on February 26, 2009
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Although Eric’s article is well written, I do take so issues with some of his technical assumptions.
A compressed signal does not eliminate power overshoot preventing amplifiers from being overdriven. Proper transceiver design and adjustment prevents overshoot. Many radios with built in speech compressors have as much as 6 dB power variations from their set power. Compression has nothing do with power limiting.
“Paradoxically, putting up with a little intermodulation distortion (which any compression scheme creates) at a low-level, reduces a LOT of intermodulation distortion at HIGH levels. So a little bit of peak clipping is definitely useful.”
The above statement is false. If your transceiver has an IMD of 25 dB at 100 watts with an amplifier that is linear the IMD will still be 25 dB. It is just that your IMD is now 10-13 dB higher up the dB scale.
One of the great traps hams get into is thinking just because no one complained about your signal, running a G5RV at 100 watts, your signal is OK. In most cases your IMD products from compression is below the noise level at the other end. Put on line a 1500 watt amplifier and run a mono band beam at 100 feet and your signal will be 30 dB higher. Now your IMD product are S9 to everyone and you’re heard up and down the band. Time to turn off the Compression.
There are two other sets of dynamics not being mention here with running compression.
First, although running compression fills up you audio envelope to higher than average RF power level, in most cases the audio dynamic range is lost. You bring into your audio much higher noise level and as a result you create if you will your own audio QRM. This includes room acoustics, fan noise, audio breath, room echo and much more. None of this adds to the articulation of the spoken word. It muddles the intelligibility of your audio.
Second, audio compression will not add to your peak power. You peak power is what drives the AGC on the other end (the receiver) to set the listeners receiver IF gain. As a result, the receiving AGC is turned up higher for the AGC only recognizes only the peak power level. Many hams think their power is higher using compression for the S meter is reads higher, responding to RMS envelope power. In most cases the receiver S meter is not a peak reading meter. With a compressed audio it has more time to read higher (time constant issue) but the peak signal is not higher, just fuller from a higher duty cycle. The ham on the other end says his analog meter reads higher so the ham on the transmitting side thinks his peak power is higher.
Several hams yelling at a DX station, all things being equal will all have the same signal level on the DX station receiver. The one station running 1000 watts will be 10 dB higher. He gets picked out of the pileup. His signal to noise floor, the other DX stations all calling, is 10 dB above the ham noise floor.
How many times have you heard the station running lots of compression only to have to repeat his call over and over? Properly applied it can add a few dB of loudness to you audio but over done, compression just make you audio wildly distorted and the DX station only hears more noise.
I run my audio on SSB with over 40 dB of dynamic range, no compression and consistently get picked out of the pileup first or second call. Each time the DX station says it was because the audio is very clear not loud.
Bottom line is there is no free lunch. If broadcast stations could have gotten by with 5 KW instead of 50 KW by running an overly compress signal they would have saved a lot of electricity and done so years ago.
As for calling CQ with the amp on, I do it all the time. If I am 6 dB above the noise floor on the other end and the ham has an amplifier we have a QSO. With out the amplifier, I would have been lost in the noise floor and the QSO is lost. You always turn off an amplifier but first you have to make the contact.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2RGW on February 26, 2009
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Try talking to people for hours at a time listening to a signal that is barely an S-unit above the noise floor. If you enjoy that, good for you. I don't find it enjoyable.
Nothing wrong with an amp, used appropriately. If you want to spend long periods on the air in lengthy QSOs right now, it's an almost necessary tool unless you have the option for a farm of stacked mono band yagis. I certainly don't have that option.
S9+20 is nothing but an everyday o.k. signal most of the time when it comes to 75m and 160m. Strong? Yes. Excessive? No way, not with the noise floor on those bands. S9+20 can still be quite noisy when the noise floor is already S9.
An S6 with an S5 noise level...fine for "59 good luck" but I don't want to hear it for a few hours. I'll have my attenuator and my DSP cranked down and the amp turned on long before then.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W3KM on February 26, 2009
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Nice article Eric. Thanks.
Regardless of 100W or 1000W - I think the compression must be set correctly - and with the mic gain reduced, so we don`t hear the blowers and the dog.
Great comments K6AER.
Dave
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W5WSS on February 26, 2009
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Kc2rgw....I was not talking about 20% of the band allocation your points are received. I was talking about the majority of hf where 5/9+30 is extremely strong. Not 160-75M regards
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The Case for PEP
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by KC2PLJ on February 26, 2009
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I don't use any more than 50-75 watts. The simple reason for this is my living conditions and for respect to others living around me. That being said I would have nothing against anyone that prefers to run at or near the legal limit. It's a matter of choice, budget, QTH.
Back to what I started saying first, I have no problem holding a solid QSO with stations running my current set-up. As everyone here knows (and has probably pointed out at one time or another) the antenna will be the BIGGEST factor, PERIOD. My choice is to not run high power and continue having fun with qrp and antenna design to improve my signal. I personally see no challenge in lighting an amp up at a kilowatt or more pointing and huge array at Europe and working stations 24/7 regardless of propagation. A lot of folks say life is to short for QRP....my opinion is it's a hell of a lot shorter when you're bored of pointing your 1000+ watt laser beam at everyone. When you tell others you worked some distant country with a set-up like that the first thing that comes to mind is "big deal". Go and tell someone you worked Spain with 2.5 watts at solar minimum with something you built yourself, your conversation will last a little longer. *these are only my opinions*
73 de Mike KC2PLJ
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K7JQ on February 26, 2009
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AA8X has a point. Running 100 watts or less into attic dipoles or other compromised stealth antennas can be quite frustrating, and running higher power is the only answer for RELIABLE communications. I know, I know...moving into an antenna restricted community is our own fault, and we're stupid for doing so...we've all heard that before from (narrow minded) hams whose entire life revolves around the HOBBY, even divorcing their wives because of it (might be a good thing :>). But that's fine...everyone is entitled to their own lifestyle choices. What I don't get is criticizing those who don't or can't have the optimum ham QTH for antennas, or those who knowingly bought into an HOA/CC&R situation, and then complain about the restrictions.
However, running high power in a stealth situation raises RFI problems and exposure levels. The key words here are ADAPTABILITY and SAFETY. Do what you can under the conditions you have to work with, and have fun :>) 73, Bob, K7JQ
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The Case for Reality
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by AI2IA on February 26, 2009
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How many hams out there really give a rodent's tail quarter about the reception quality on the other quy's end? Pah! All they really care about is pushing their signal through no matter what. They don't care about the quality of their signal on the receiving end. All they want on the other end is a shout with their call signs so they can say, "Me first! Recognize me first!"
If you want to offer an excuse for operating your way (whatever your way is to you), at least be honest about, because your actual on-the-air behavior will give you away.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K7JQ on February 26, 2009
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K6AER, as usual, has some great points about compression, intelligibility, and when use of an amp is advisable. In 50 years of hamming, I've found that very seldom will you get an answer to your CQ if your signal is marginal with respect to the noise floor, unless you're rare DX, county, grid square, or a state needed for an award.
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RE: The Case for Reality
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by W5WSS on February 26, 2009
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Ai2iA I do. I have excellent ssb audio at 20 watts pep from my indoor rectangle....and if you guys cant hear me then its not a problem right? My last contact was rst 5/9 +10 on 20m phone. Electrovoice 638 and a Kenwood 820s I work dx too.
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RE: The Case for Reality
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by W5WSS on February 26, 2009
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But then how do you know your going to marginal to the noise floor at point B?
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W9OY on February 26, 2009
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(Female voices actually have a lot higher energy density, on the average.)
No kiddin
73 W9OY
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W5WSS on February 26, 2009
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Yeah females can sound somewhat high pitched but not all of them
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The Case for PEP
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by WA3SKN on February 26, 2009
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This is not about power, it is about audio compression.
Do we need 1.5 kwatt of power?... Yes, for EME. No for most other uses.
Discussion begins...
-Mike.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K0BG on February 26, 2009
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Only a couple of folks mentioned that proper setting of the various controls are the key. And isn't that the real issue here?
It is my observation that few amateurs really know how to properly set their microphone gain, or compression gain. Nor do they know how to use their microphones correctly.
Again from my perspective (mostly as a mobile operator), the lack of knowledge about such things is even more evident due to the higher ambient noise levels present in automobiles.
I still think Steve Katz's article needs to be required reading by all: http://www.eham.net/articles/8069
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W9OY on February 26, 2009
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I guess I missed the part about CW and compression
73 W9OY
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KB0NPW on February 26, 2009
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It's like I tell my buddies who are studying for their General upgrades: Propagation is the boss! The problem is, our hobby is no different than all the others. There will always be those who do their Tim the Toolman Taylor grunt as they flip the switch on the KW and just grin. If that's what makes them happy, then fine. Me, I will be over here snickering cause I just worked K5D with my ol' TS-440 with a built-in tuner and a G5RV. And I did it on my first time calling, right in the middle of the pileup ;-)
That's why I love this hobby. We can all find something we love about it. If you love running a lot of power and/or compression, great! If you love QRP, awesome! Regardless, treat other operators with respect, and we will all have a blast.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K9MHZ on February 26, 2009
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>>>>by K7JQ on February 26, 2009
AA8X has a point. Running 100 watts or less into attic dipoles or other compromised stealth antennas can be quite frustrating,<<<<
I'm right with you, Bob. The attic dipole (traps and end stubs) gets to be a real Catch 22, since the only option of higher power will put some serious voltages (and even a corona) at nodes up in your wooden attic.
If you have a high roof pitch, two-story home, you might be able to get some antenna height and a lower takeoff angle, although it's never a great situation.....but, we could go on about antennas and we'd hijack Eric's thread.
Best,
Brad
K9MHZ
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by N6AJR on February 26, 2009
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A copuple of other points... first If I make contact with some one at a kw and then drop to 5 watts thay can usually still hear me, but it took the kw to get their attantion first.
I ahve a alpha 87 a on the orion, a tl 922 on the ts2000, an al 1200 on the ft 990, a asl 600 on the pegasus. and a IC 2KL on the 746 pro. I run the 847 in the truck and the 857 in the car at a barefoot 100 watts.
I usually run my amps at about 1/2 ot 2/3rds power. most are autotune and ful qsk so on ssb or cw there is nop click clack noise when running. I just treat the whols thing like a 800 watt transciever. It works for me.
if I am in a net or rag chew, I may only run a hunderd watts, but for DX or some modest contesting I usually run abou 800 to a thousand watts, and on dx I may actually use the legal limit if necessary. it just depends.
My opinion is that life is too short for QOR anfd GOLF!!
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W7ETA on February 26, 2009
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Audio sounded much better before rigs had compressors.
Equalizers, especially with echos built in, just made things worse.
For me, running a compressor for state side and DX when the sigs are over the noise level on the other end is just plain strange behavior.
When I was a General, I'd get on 40 in the evenings, pound out CQ DX with my SB220 on and get some replies that I couldn't pull out of the QRM. I'd put the amp into stand-by, pound out CQ DX and wouldn't get any replies.
Moral of the story is that there wasn't an internet, so I didn't know I should worry about how other hams thought I should run my station.
I tied to run the cleanest station possible with the best audio possible.
Few hams object when I ask them to please turn off your compressor when we chat.
Fortunately, I have "V" shaped hearing centered upon 1 Kc, so a lot of the crap isn't within my pass band any more--nothin like having a built in SSB filter with >20db roll off. It works pretty good on CW also.
Most of the time, I just assume people don't know how bad their audio sounds--the did the best they could setting up things without being able to hear what their efforts sound like.
Distorted, muffled audio laced with room echo and the sound of a fan blowing in the background isn't a pile-up buster.
Thanks for a good article with great prose.
Maybe more people will wonder how they sound or at least ask if they need to have the compressor on?
73
Bob
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KE7FD on February 26, 2009
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I thought this article hit the nail many of us have been gunning for but with a different hammer. I don’t have a power amplifier and have no plans on getting one. I also admire those QRP operators who manage to develop real operating skills and knowledge of what it means to conduct radio communications. Now before someone jumps down my throat with rhetoric about emergency communications, hear me out. If you have an amp and your island is being blown away as happens from time to time, sure use the amp. But if I may borrow from John Donne for a moment, “No man is an island”, and while some might argue that without their amps, they would be isolated, unheard, or otherwise deprived of enjoying their hobby to the fullest, I say because we are not isolated, many an power station crushes other stations around them for the reasons already provided in previous posts. So you say the guy at the other end of the QSO appreciates the louder signal, to which a hundred other operators tuned in trying to talk to someone else 10 KHz away respond, “So what!”. Our [right] to run 1KW ends when we crush the other guy we’re not talking to. KL7AJ makes some very good points about compression, bandwidth and how we really should be paying closer attention to our signal quality and not the quantity (Po).
Oh and did anyone else notice how quickly the responses focused on Part 97, section 313, paragraph (b)? I quote, “(b) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 1.5 kW PEP”. But what about Part 97, section 313, paragraph (a), the rule that precedes the maximum power an operator [may] use? Again, I quote from 97.313: “(a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications”. Paragraph (b) uses the words “may not” while paragraph (a) uses “must”. Did you get that?
This tells all of us that if we are able to communicate with someone with 100 watts, then don’t use the amp. If we can do it with 10 watts, then don’t use 100, and so forth. One response said to reduce power by turning off the amp once contact is made. That sounds like a prudent course of action in keeping with the rules. How many times though do we hear guys passing signal reports along with 20+ over and still the amp stays on? But perhaps the term “desired communications” means to someone that using 1KW+ is justified under the law because the OM “desires” to have 20+ over signals. Sure, try that argument out in court and see how fast the judge throws the book at you. Are amplifier owners subject to a different set of rules than those of us who run barefoot?
Moreover, any contest that allows overwhelming odds of the use of the legal limit that results in the crushing of other stations, is in no way a contest. The playing field is not level and the real talent is often covered up by the glitz and glamour of those parading around with the shiniest hardware. The best QSO’s are those that have clean robust audio, not those that occupy twice the allowed band with or dominate a frequency with 20+ signal reports from an amp.
As always, IMHO,
KE7FD
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KU2US on February 26, 2009
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I run 350 watts when needed. There is a big difference between 100W and 350W, but above that, I just cant see running a gallon. The cost of the amp, the electricity it uses are just not worth it. Yes-a great "effective" antenna and 100 watts beats all. I got K5D on the second day with 100W, a ParElectonics 20 meter end fed up 30' on 20 meters at 11pm!!! SSB...And a little luck.. :)
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by AB7E on February 26, 2009
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K6AER: "How many times have you heard the station running lots of compression only to have to repeat his call over and over? Properly applied it can add a few dB of loudness to you audio but over done, compression just make you audio wildly distorted and the DX station only hears more noise. "
How very true. During NAQP SSB I was appalled at all the really distorted audio I was hearing. I don't mean the signals weren't studio quality ... I mean they weren't intelligible even though they were S9 plus. I do a fair amount of contesting and prefer signals with punch, but this stuff was just awful, and several of them were from big time contest operations that should know better (including one station in Iowa that sounds horrible in every contest).
One fellow in Colorado was S9 +20 and nobody could understand his callsign. I even turned my yagi to make sure he wasn't just overloading my rig. Guys were making remarks about his crummy signal while he was calling so I finally called him to tell him what he sounded like. He appreciated the feedback (no audio pun intended) and backed off on the mic gain and compression until he sounded crisp. His signal dropped a full 15 db on my S-meter but he went from Q2 to Q5.
73,
Dave AB7E
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by RFEXPERT on February 27, 2009
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And the number one rule for communication effectiveness using low power is DONT use ESSB.
Its amazing how ineffective ESSB is under weak signal conditions. ESSB makes running excessive power mandatory because the audio quality is so lousy you need the power to be understood.
There is nothing worst than listening to these bassy horrible sounding ESSB stations trying to call you on the other end of the pileup with muddy audio.
Nothing beats a good quality RF speech processor and normal communications quality audio. The ESSB craze/stupidity is one of the worst things that has happened to the HF amateur bands.
What is sad is that i hear so many G5RV/vertical low power stations who are new hams who have taken to the ESSB fad. They simply dont know how simply reducing your transmit bandwidth and adding a bit of speech processing can be very effective with such simple antennas. This is preferred rather than splattering the band with shelfish excessive bandwidth.
I yearn for the days past when the ham bands were full of stations running TS830S, KWM2A's, TS930s, Drake TR7s etc etc all with a heavy dose of proper RF clipping, it was music to my ears. Actually in my opinion there was much less splatter around and the bands were packed full of stations. You certainly could understand S1 stations, these days you cant understand a station thats S5 because of the typical bassy IC756PROXX bassy type audio thats so popular.
Over Over!
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by M0AFJ on February 27, 2009
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Now, an uncompressed SSB signal is not likely to have a 10,000:1 peak-to-average ratio as a radar might...but a 10:1 peak to average ratio is not unusual at all for the human voice...especially the MALE human voice. (Female voices actually have a lot higher energy density, on the average.)
Must have met my ex-wife after I got in late from the pub!!!, her voice could kill at 1000 paces lol!
Great article..
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W8JI on February 27, 2009
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Most often the real skill and effort when a QRP station works a long distance is on the end where the person is forced to copy the weak signal, not the guy pushing the key. Every QRP award should be issues in two parts, the second going to the people that had to put up with the weak signal. That's where the real skill is.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K1BQT on February 27, 2009
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As Tom suggests, whether the problem is a neon sign down the street or an over-driven radio connected to a bad antenna, nobody sitting in a pileup likes to hear the word "again" repeated over and over. As far as the FCC is concerned, there's absolutely nothing illegal or immoral about launching a frequency dominating 1500-Watt signal with the best antenna system you can put together as long as it is done within the bounds of good engineering practice. Why try to turn output power into a social issue when it clearly is not?
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W8JI on February 27, 2009
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Actually the whole thing is stupid.
There isn't anything that says average power increases communications without carefully defining the situation.
Also, there are just as many bad operators running low power as there are running high power. This is true despite low power operator's self-delusions about being skilled where the rest of the world is not.
When anyone calls off frequency, or calls where or when the DX station is not listening, he won't get answered. That is the total extent of the skill required on transmitting whether we run 1.5 milliwatts or 1500 watts.
There is a problem caused by people who think skill is tail-ending in a pileup, or that long calls make up for weak signals. It slows things down and causes QRM. The source of this problem is usually, but of course not always, the stations who feel the only way to get through is to call endlessly or call after everyone else stops. Some might think that is "skill".
By far the biggest problems are caused by people calling that cannot hear the DX well enough to know what the DX station is saying or calling without using split when requested. It isn't distortion, it isn't power, it isn't QRP. Lids who call when the DX is transmitting on top of the DX are Lids whether they run 1 watt or 10 kilowatts, and they are the major problem. Them and the long callers on simplex.
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The Case for PEP
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by K6YE on February 27, 2009
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Eric,
I agree with K6AER's comments, 100%.
In addition, I find that a lot of operators do not use the "monitor" function on their transceivers. This should be the first step in listening to one's transmit signal. Second, listen to what others say about your audio characteristics, especially those who know you both on the air and in person and take heed.
It is not true that there was no over driving in the good old days. I heard the term "flattopping" many times referred to some overzealous operators.
QRO or QRP are a matter of personal choice. I usually run 150 watts but Mr. Alpha and Mr. Henry are there when so needed.
Have fun while you are on this side of the dirt.
Semper Fi,
Tommy - K6YE
DX IS
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W9OY on February 27, 2009
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OMG!!!!! You mean the QRPers have no clothes???? They really aren't wild and woolly super hero operators???? You mean its the guy with his ears bleeding out trying to copy this puny weak geek who is the real hero????
Another ARRL myth busted...
73 W9OY
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W8JI on February 27, 2009
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That's right W9OY, odd as it seems it doesn't take the special training, effort, brains, or exceptional skill cliamed here to be weak.
All the effort or real work is on the end that hears the weak signal, not on the end that makes it.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by WB2WIK on February 27, 2009
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I usually run a kW on HF, but for K5D (since I already had Desecheo on 7 band-modes from the last expedition) I committed myself to put on QRP'ers shoes and try to work them with an FT-817ND barefoot.
I did, and made six contacts on 15m through 40m. However I called them a hundred times on 80m and 160m with 4.5-4.9W and putting on my finest operator's face, just couldn't raise them.
I must admit running 4W or so did take more timing, more listening, more trying different split frequencies, etc. than it takes with 1500W. So, QRP can build operating skills.
K5D gave me "59" for all contacts. What a surprise!
:-)
Now, back to running more power again. Whew.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by WI7B on February 27, 2009
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"The bottom line of all this is that FREQUENCY equalization is of FAR greater importance than compression in increasing distant intelligibility. Chip Margelli of Heil Sound gave a graphic demonstration of this at the Alaska Hamfest last fall."
Eric,
I'm surprised more haven't commented on this important take-away lesson. With 7-level equalizer ( or greater) one can actually track the intelligibilty of transmitted signal. Setting the optimum equalization is, of course, individual-specific.
I have tested a few compression and equalization settings with power variation in the range 100W-850W using remote receivers. Extremely intelligible signals can be had at 100-200W with optimal setting of compression and equalization that match or exceed 850W uncompressed and bare-back.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by AK2B on February 27, 2009
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From W8JI
“Most often the real skill and effort when a QRP station works a long distance is on the end where the person is forced to copy the weak signal, not the guy pushing the key. Every QRP award should be issues in two parts, the second going to the people that had to put up with the weak signal. That's where the real skill is.”
It’s amazing to me that statements like this are made from hams that will sit on 160 meters and try and copy signals barely distinguishable from noise. Is the other station weak because they are QRP or do they just happen to be on the other side of the planet under adverse band conditions? Do your DX awards come with an endorsement mentioning the severe suffering you or the other guy went through in order to make these contacts?
Obviously from your own recordings, it’s not weak signals that bother you. If you feel you need a pat on the head because you had to struggle working a QRP station - help yourself.
http://www.w8ji.com/dx_sound_files.htm
Tom, ak2b
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by AB7E on February 27, 2009
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To AK2B:
I think you're missing the point (and displaying some antagonistic envy in the process). How many times here on eHam, in this message thread and in others, have you seen people bragging about how they don't need an amp or have worked the world with QRP? Hundreds at least ... probably in just the last year alone. EVERY station, whether K3LR or the guy with a hamstick on a balcony, is occasionally going to attempt a QSO when his signals are weak on the other end. If while doing so you intentionally throw away 10 db (QRP versus low power or low power versus QRO) you're shifting the burden to the other guy and your pride in making the QSO is mostly unwarranted. It's simple physics.
That's all that W8JI and others having been saying here, and if you don't accept that then you've got some other issues I don't understand.
Dave AB7E
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The Case for PEP
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by G0GQK on February 27, 2009
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Feel sorry for your poor neighbours having a 1.5 Kw killer wasp amplifier on their doorstep, but as the cost of electricity will increase and the value of stocks and shares and interest on saving is now close to zilch, there will be fewer who can afford to buy electric power to waste
G0GQK
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The Case for PEP
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by KL7AJ on February 27, 2009
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Many years ago, I was a maintenance consultant for the Eielson AFB "Giant Talk" SSB system. This was a 30 KW PEP Collins transmitter driving a monstrous steerable Log Periodic array, where they kept comm links to Air Force One.
They were ultraparanoid about overdriving this thing, so generally, they loafed along with about 10 KW PEP. I made some suggestions to the powers that were, that there were very effective compression systems around that would let them safely use most of their 30 KW with little chance of flat-topping.
I was let know in no uncertain terms that Air Force policy strictly forbid the use of any audio processing of any sort.
PERIOD.
I could somewhat understand their thinking. This was a critical application where EXTREME terseness was required...anything that might have possibly required repeats was STRONGLY frowned upon.
So I set up a monitor scope, put a couple of red grease marks on the graticule at the 30 KW level, and they were happy as clams at high tide with that until the site was decommissioned.
So, there are folks at both extremes of the philosophy.
Eric
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by WA1RNE on February 27, 2009
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"What is better: a 100 watt SSB transmitter running 10dB of compression, or a 1KW SSB transmitter running super clean?"
>>> Taken in the context of the article and the authors apparent sentiment for 100 watts with some form of processing and equalization (not a bad thing), the question is a bit out of place.
But to answer the question in of itself, it simply depends upon the operating conditions - most importantly, the band of operation, QRM and QRN levels, and antennas in use by each station.
This also assumes all stations are using best practices.
...WA1RNE
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by NI0C on February 27, 2009
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G0GQK wrote:
"as the cost of electricity will increase and the value of stocks and shares and interest on saving is now close to zilch, there will be fewer who can afford to buy electric power to waste"
It is electrical energy that we purchase, not power. Since energy is the time integral of power, the judicious use of an amplifier to make a given contact may actually save money.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by G3LBS on February 27, 2009
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We should all apply to have our own windmills then also put antennae on the towers. Then no need for economy of power, no need for unsightly power lines and poles, no power outages when the slightest breeze blows.
W2/G3LBS
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W5WSS on February 27, 2009
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OH HAHA W8JI'S POINTS ARE LOUDER AND STRONGER THEREFORE THEY ARE 100% CORRECT.(maybe on 160 AGHHHH I am so tired of these wimpy signals hehe).just kidding..whew back to 100 watts...
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W3LK on February 27, 2009
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G0GQK:
<< Feel sorry for your poor neighbours having a 1.5 Kw killer wasp amplifier on their doorstep,>>
I have no idea what "killer wasp amp" means, but my 1 KW amp causes zero problems for either of my two neighbors, unlike the assault on my ears caused by one neighbor's motorcycles at 6:30 AM all summer.
BTW, my amp isn't on anyone's doorstep. It's in my shack and that's well over 100 feet from my neighbor's doorstep.
73,
Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W7ETA on February 27, 2009
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Some people think that if you need to pat yourself on the head because the other op pulled you out of the noise, then go ahead OB.
But, proclaiming its your skill that the other op pulled you out is sorta strange?
That you are willing to forgo many Qs, by using very low power, is a testament to patience (?), and probably hunting ability, but many times the op on the other end, struggling to copy you, has a large part in your accomplishment.
An old expression is that if you run QRP, don't pee into the wind. : - )
73
Bob
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by N2EY on February 27, 2009
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G0GQK writes: "as the cost of electricity will increase and the value of stocks and shares and interest on saving is now close to zilch, there will be fewer who can afford to buy electric power to waste"
I don't know what electricity costs where you are, but here in EPA I pay about 15 cents per kilowatthour.
Suppose I have a 1.5 kW amp that draws 200 W on standby and 3000 W key-down. And let's say I use it about 1000 hours per year (that's almost 3 hours of operating per day, every single day of the year). And suppose CW and SSB are assumed to have a 50% duty cycle when transmitting, and that I transmit half the time I'm operating.
The result is that I spend the equivalent of 750 hours with the amp drawing 200 W and 250 hours with the amp drawing 3000 W.
So the total energy consumed by the amp is 150 kWh in standby and 750 kWh actually transmitting. 900 kWh total.
At 15 cents per kilowatt hour, that's $135 per year for electricity to run the amp. When you consider what such an amp costs to buy or build, that's not much. Even if the cost per kWh doubles, it's still not that much compared to the cost of the amp.
And note that those numbers are based on very heavy use of the amplifier. How many hams are on the air every single day for almost 3 hours with the amp running?
Look around the average home, and incandescent lights consume far more energy.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W4CNG on February 27, 2009
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When the reports come in for 5/9 for everybody, you gotta wonder what the report is real? Haven't worked them, really don't care if I do. DX is what you make it, just that, DX, work it if you can. I will stand on the side till you can't talk anymore.... Yes 800Watts PEP output into a Dipole in the Attic..
Steve W4CNG
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An Immodest Proposal
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by N2EY on February 28, 2009
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W8JI writes: "Most often the real skill and effort when a QRP station works a long distance is on the end where the person is forced to copy the weak signal, not the guy pushing the key."
I don't know about that. QRP doesn't necessarily mean a weak signal.
I'd rather have a great antenna and location, but be limited to QRP, rather than having a mediocre location and antenna and have high power. Of course a great antenna, location, and full power are the best of all worlds, but not many of us are lucky enough to have that.
W8JI: "Every QRP award should be issues in two parts, the second going to the people that had to put up with the weak signal."
I think there's a great idea waiting to happen there. Why not score contest QSOs by what the *other* station is running?
Take ARRL Field Day for example (yes, it's not a DX test, but it's an example).
On FD, a station running high power gets a power multiplier of 1, a station running low power gets a power multiplier of 2, and a station running QRP and battery power gets a power multiplier of 5. As a result, almost nobody runs high power on FD.
A CW or digital QSO is worth 2 points, while a phone QSO is worth 1. So if I run 100 W and make 100 CW QSOs, I get 400 points, regardless of how much power the other stations run. (100 QSOs x 2 points for CW x power multiplier of 2)
Almost nobody runs high power on FD because of the power multiplier.
But what if the point value of a QSO was also determined by the power the other guy is running? Say, 1 for high power, 2 for low power and 5 for QRP? So if I run 100 W and make 100 CW QSOs, and they are 25 high power, 50 low power and 25 QRP, I get:
25 + (2 x 50) + (25 x 5) = 250 QSO points
250 QSO points x 2 for CW x 2 for low power on my end = 1000 points.
That way, both ops are rewarded for running less power. The QRP folks should support it because it makes them more attractive to others.
Of course, every station would have to send their power level, but that's just one letter in the exchange and one keystroke in the logging computer.
Why not?
One of the really unique things about amateur radio contesting is that it's a competitive activity where the only way to win is to help lots of competitors score points too.
Another idea: QRPsquared awards. Think it's a challenge to work all 50 states with QRP? Do it where the stations on both ends of the QSO are QRP.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K9MHZ on February 28, 2009
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>>>>>by KL7AJ on February 27, 2009 Many years ago, I was a maintenance consultant for the Eielson AFB "Giant Talk" SSB system. This was a 30 KW PEP Collins transmitter driving a monstrous steerable Log Periodic array, where they kept comm links to Air Force One.
They were ultraparanoid about overdriving this thing, so generally, they loafed along with about 10 KW PEP. I made some suggestions to the powers that were, that there were very effective compression systems around that would let them safely use most of their 30 KW with little chance of flat-topping.
I was let know in no uncertain terms that Air Force policy strictly forbid the use of any audio processing of any sort.
PERIOD......<<<<
Hi Eric,
I'm guessing (emphasis: "guessing") that SAC might have been most interested in intelligibility on those Giant Talk transmissions during those years. Having flown other planes that were on the receiving end of Giant Talk message traffic, it was absolutely critical that you heard the characters correctly, so you could go to the correct checklist. SAC was very anal about such things and absolutely set in their ways, so that may explain the resistance you encountered. FWIW.
Cheers,
Brad
K9MHZ
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RE: The Case for Reality
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by G6NJR on February 28, 2009
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Now you see this is what is castrating ham radio the idea of the hobby is to experiment with radio note the word Experiment not run a 1K plus brick to make a contact you could almost certainly make on 20 to 30 watts and no amount of nappy wetting by the big boot brigade will ever change that , It is high time that governments around the world get there collective butts into gear and put a limit on
1 : the maximum power into the antenna
2 : the bandwidth a signal is allowed to ocupy
this should include spatter ect
Then
3 : Removed limits on size and type of antenna installed
at a station (obviously within reason)
Your Milage May vary Mine is Constant and unchanging
Pete G6NJR
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RE: The Case for Reality
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by W3LK on February 28, 2009
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G6NJR:
<<It is high time that governments around the world get there collective butts into gear and put a limit on
1 : the maximum power into the antenna
2 : the bandwidth a signal is allowed to ocupy
this should include spatter ect >>
What vacuum do YOU live in?
As far as I know, every country already does these things, including YOURS! Or do you mean they should set the limits based on what YOU think they should be? Oh, you want everyone to have the SAME limits? Just because you're limited to 400w, everyone else should be?
There's a word for that, but I won't turn this into a political discussion.
73,
Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KL7AJ on February 28, 2009
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"....it was absolutely critical that you heard the characters correctly, so you could go to the correct checklist. SAC was very anal about such things and absolutely set in their ways, so that may explain the resistance you encountered. FWIW."
Brad: I'm sure you're absolutely correct about this. And I didn't really have any heartburn about it either...it WAS a fantastically clean signal we put out. Kind of nice to work on such a CLEAN installation! What a marvelous bunch of equipment to work on...truly the end of an era. Not that one really wants to get nostalgic about the Cold War....but at least then we knew who the bad guys were!
Eric
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RE: An Immodest Proposal
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by W8JI on February 28, 2009
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by N2EY on February 28, 2009 W8JI: "Every QRP award should be issues in two parts, the second going to the people that had to put up with the weak signal."
I think there's a great idea waiting to happen there. Why not score contest QSOs by what the *other* station is running?>>>>>
Jim,
The Stew Perry DISTANCE challenge on 160 meters went into a real funk because they gave power and distance multipliers to stations. It almost killed the contest.
A station running very low power (I think it was under under ten watts) in a populated area could work many short to medium distance stations and by the time they got the QRP multiplier they could easily win. 1500 watt stations had no hope at all.
People quickly learned you could not win from a remote location with medium or high power because someone with really big transmitting antennas with a lot of one or two hop stations to work could clean up.
The result was the DISTANCE contest became a QRP contest with short range. Stations in 4X4 and other more remote but heavily congested areas complained there was no one to work. (I could work 10,000 miles to VK with QRP, but that was always possible with good conditions and big antenna. It was the more difficult but much shorter paths into locations with higher ambient noise, like Europe or Japan, that required high power.)
They modified that contest so the stations working the low power stations shared in the multiplier, even if they were running high power, and it turned things around.
The concept is not new, and it makes great sense. Despite what people might think a QSO is a two-way street. It takes more work and a better location and antennas to be able to hear low power stations then it does to work other people when you have QRP.
The Stew Perry is a good example of how things should be.
73 Tom
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K9MHZ on February 28, 2009
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>>>>Brad: I'm sure you're absolutely correct about this. And I didn't really have any heartburn about it either...it WAS a fantastically clean signal we put out. Kind of nice to work on such a CLEAN installation! What a marvelous bunch of equipment to work on...truly the end of an era. Not that one really wants to get nostalgic about the Cold War....but at least then we knew who the bad guys were!
Eric<<<<
Yeah, pity that you couldn't get some of it surplus, eh? Man, you could warm up the winters up there with that gear! Equinox soon, and solstace is on the way.....hang in there!
Cheers,
Brad
K9MHZ
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K1BQT on February 28, 2009
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Lord have mercy, Gil, are you suggesting that some DXers might break the law by abusing the "headroom" built into their equipment?
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W5WSS on February 28, 2009
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NR5W,K5NA,K0RH,K5WA,WB9Z..to name a few I worked last night on top band with 20 watts pep and an indoor 8ft X 25ft rectangle.(I had to do the fun too er work I meant to say) These fellows just to name a few have done the work...or is it done the fun? I am sorry My definition of play is designing,building,and installing everything that pertains to an amateur station for any band. Too much enjoyment WORKING the stations. If it becomes a chore, work, or what ever try it from another fellows shoes. If top band is the basis of this discussion and an operator that is using an antenna that is high or contains superior s/n ratio(poor baby lol)compared to most then what is his handicap as it relates to competing in a contest.? I do not see any cordinators touching that one in this very small comparativeley speaking hobby. I do agree with the DX savvy,experience (intangeable as it is) that Tom and others have pointed out coupled with a paticular skill set specific to an individual operator.And What one's system is capable of at any moment during the skywave variable thats just it there are too many variables in the science of hf communications to place a standard on whom is doing the most.
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The Case for PEP
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by WA9ZOH on February 28, 2009
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Throughout this whole series of comments, not one person mentioned the idea of monitoring the output of their signals using a scope. That would put to rest any doubts concerning having a clean signal when using compression.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by K1BXI on March 1, 2009
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"Throughout this whole series of comments, not one person mentioned the idea of monitoring the output of their signals using a scope. That would put to rest any doubts concerning having a clean signal when using compression."
I'm not sure about that, I've heard some pretty lousy sounding audio that will look perfect on a monitor scope.
I use an old HO-10 monitor scope here and when I turn the compression way up to 30 dB on the Mark V, it still looks good on the scope, (no flat topping and the trapezoid looks good with the Alpha in line) but you sure don't want to listen to it, or be close by the frequency.
John
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC5CQD on March 1, 2009
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"Of course it is better to have a beam antenna than an amplifier, but not everyone has real estate for such a move."
Thank you, Peter!! A lot of hams forget the importance of E.R.P.(effective radiated power). I've always been a firm believer that the antenna is the gateway of the station. A $12,000.00 rig running into a lousy antenna system will sound like a piece of crap....AND....an $800.00 rig running into a hi-gain antenna system will sound like a $20,000.00 rig!!!
Bottom line? Heighth above ground and boom length make the REAL difference. And of course a good low-loss coaxial.
I realize that this sounds like a really bad proposition for those operators that live in antenna restricted neighborhoods but it is the truth. Yes, you can work wonders with wire strung five feet above the ground and a good Palstar, roller inductor tuner but for consistent, reliable communications.....nothing beats a fifty foot tower and a good multi-element HF beam antenna. That's a scientific fact, my friends.
73's
KC5CQD
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W5WSS on March 1, 2009
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The scientific fact is that everybody who transmits has their measure of effective radiated power. Not everyone who receives has the the same S/n ratio,some have better than others that is either indigenous to the antenna design and or both the quietness of ones location which is an independent situation even though reciprocity states that the equipment of two seporated stations will find a measured level of feild strength.(the skywave variable adds to the difficulty of measuring but does not change the law) A beam and 50 ft of height is good but your leaving out alot of specifics that are required in order to evaluate it's effectiveness. On the low bands an nvis low height antenna for example may be superior based on distance beyond the skip zone where it is presenting better signal strengths because of the antennas high toa.than a beam and 50 ft of height. Lots of things to consider as you learn about our hobby 73
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC5CQD on March 1, 2009
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"The scientific fact is that everybody who transmits has their measure of effective radiated power. Not everyone who receives has the the same S/n ratio,some have better than others that is either indigenous to the antenna design and or both the quietness of ones location which is an independent situation even though reciprocity states that the equipment of two seporated stations will find a measured level of feild strength.(the skywave variable adds to the difficulty of measuring but does not change the law) A beam and 50 ft of height is good but your leaving out alot of specifics that are required in order to evaluate it's effectiveness. On the low bands an nvis low height antenna for example may be superior based on distance beyond the skip zone where it is presenting better signal strengths because of the antennas high toa.than a beam and 50 ft of height. Lots of things to consider as you learn about our hobby 73"
Blah, blah, blah....I hear ya' brother. Antenna vs. power theory can get very tedious. I know this through experience. I've been a ham since '92 and I know how confusing all of this theory can get. Trust me, friend....there is wishful thinking and then there is hard reality. And hard reality is that a beam at 50 feet works better than a full wave loop at 20 feet.
Can a ham, running 1 watt to a wire antenna, 20 feet above ground, communicate with another ham 10,000 miles away? Of course he can! But can he do it consistantly? Probably not.
Hey....however a ham transmits, more power to 'em!!! I love having the conversational potential. LOL!
But don't kid yourself. It's the boys with the towers and beams that dominate this hobby.
And to my credit.....I'm not one of the "big boys". I have a paltry station with a paltry antenna system. And I enjoy every damned minute of operation. I just love RADIO!!! It's friggin' awesome.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2OYZ on March 2, 2009
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1) This whole discussion I find just a bit silly:
antenna... Antenna... ANTENNA!
2) How can you give a 5/9 signal report after asking the guy 5 times to repeat his call sign? Duh...
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W5WSS on March 2, 2009
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Genaralizations Blah blah blah. beams at 50 ft do not dominate squat 50 ft is low dominate nvis hehe
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2PLJ on March 3, 2009
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"Life is too short for QRP, no matter what the PC crowd might think."
A matter of opinion and not fact, maybe your life is to short for QRP but mine is not. I happen to enjoy using low power very much, the fact that I can work stations that are doing the same all the better. I see a lot of arguments on here pointing out that a "big gun" so to speak is the only one station able to work our little .5-5 watt stations, and others saying that the call sign from the QRP station needs to repeated 9-10 times. Both of you are forgetting about CW and digital modes, QRP uses everything from CW to SSB remember this before you post negative comments. With CW I usually do not have to repeat anything and work other stations just fine, including the ones with a nominal antenna setup and running low power (sometimes as little as 200 mw) Again, my opinions are different than yours but the facts will remain the same, Antenna, propagation, operator, practice and skill....and if you really want power. 73 de KC2PLJ
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W9WHE-II on March 3, 2009
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In this new age of Obamanomics, where everybody, everywhere gets government money and people no longer need worry about paying their mortgages or debts, why not just ask the current socialist administration for a 1.5 KW amp? Afterall, aren't you ENTITLED to it?
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2OYZ on March 3, 2009
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W9WHE-II - your idea will not work - nobody is entitled to a 1.5 KW amp. What you need to do is take out a home equity loan to pay for the amp - then when the bank comes to take your house, you will be entitled to a homeowner's bailout...
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W9WHE-II on March 4, 2009
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Damn...you are right! Alpha Products should run an ad...
"Buy an amp and get a Federal bailout"
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KB2FCV on March 4, 2009
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Put more thought into your antenna than your power out. All the power in the world isn't going to help you if your antenna sucks and can't hear squat. A great antenna will make more of a difference than any amp ever could.
That being said, there are a few places where an amp really is needed. Want to work CW off moonbounce? You need an amp AND a good antenna. JT65? With a good antenna you can get away with 100W but you'll work a few of the really big eme stations.
I've done plenty of HF with 5 watts of power. I've easily worked into Africa, Europe and South America on 5 watts, my K2 and a simple dipole antenna.
I do own 2 amps. One is a collectors item, it matches my hallicrafters station (HT-32A/SX-101A.. HT-33A amp). The hallicrafters amp is functional but does not really get used. The other is for EME. W6PO design amp with 8877 final. I won't be using this for anything but EME.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by NV2A on March 4, 2009
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[quote]What are we really doing when we run speech compression? We're really compressing more USEFUL TIME into a given amount of available time. Or, perhaps better stated, we're increasing the amount of time at which a voice signal is at a certain amount of power. In reality, we can't really compress time. But we CAN eliminate useless chunks of time. [/quote]
When we turn on our compression we are compressing the dynamic range of the audio envelope and as you mention, not time. A compressor can do it one of three ways. It can amplify the lows to nearly equal the loud portion. It can reduce the loud portion of the speech to equal the quieter passages. Or, it can do both to some degree at the same time. Because of compression the signal "appears" to be louder but only it's average energy level is actually louder.
On TV, the producers and Directors like wide dynamic range for artistic shock value when people are whispering and then a loud scream blares out. But when we get to the commercials, they compress the hell out of the audio and that's why they seem so much louder. Actually they, the commercials, are run at the same levels as the programming.
As for 100 vs 1500? Give me 3K. I'd like to be able to have more steam when the bands start to sag when I'm chewing the fat with someone. I do not use an amp at present but would when conditions dictate.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W8JI on March 5, 2009
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Where were all the whining crying vocal Republicans for the last 30 years while we exported all our manufacturing jobs, and deregulated everything that is critical to watch?
Where were you when Bush and the Republican controlled Congress deregulated banking, or gave out all the no-bid contracts? Where were you when a Republican former member of Congress from Texas lobbied and pushed to allow insurance companies and Wall Street firms to invest in bundles of sub-prime loans? Where were you hiding the last eight years when Republicans could have stopped the spending or slowed it down?
Now that we have a new president why is this unsolvable mess he inherited from other Republicans and Democrats suddenly all his fault?
The truth is we can only do two things. We can cut off all bailouts and spending and let it all collapse in a hurry, shoot some people, and start over...or we can try to spend our way out of this. There really isn't any easy fixing what we worked on creating since the 70's. Tax cuts for the rich sure won't fix it. We've been doing that. Deregulation won't do it. We've been doing both of those and it has not worked out so well.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2OYZ on March 5, 2009
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If something works for 25 years and then fails,doesn't that mean that it worked? A radio that worked that long would be called a very good radio... all good things must come to an end - that doesn't mean you turn around and blame the people who made it work all that time. Do you blame a guy's mother for doing a bad job if he happens to die? Where would we be now if we hadn't started doing what we did in the 80s? Very hard to say...
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by N2EY on March 5, 2009
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KC2OYZ writes: "If something works for 25 years and then fails,doesn't that mean that it worked?"
Of course - it worked for a while.
KC2OYZ: "A radio that worked that long would be called a very good radio..."
I've had much older radios that worked just fine.
KC2OYZ: "all good things must come to an end - that doesn't mean you turn around and blame the people who made it work all that time."
Depends on the situation.
Some things usually have relatively short useful lives, because they simply wear out. A car that is used the way most people use cars and yet lasts 25 years is a very good car.
Other things are expected to last much longer. A house that fell apart after 25 years of normal use wasn't built right. Skyscrapers and bridges are expected to last for centuries - remember when that 40-year-old bridge collapsed in Minnesota?
KC2OYZ: "Do you blame a guy's mother for doing a bad job if he happens to die?"
Depends on the situation. If the guy's mother didn't take proper care of him, maybe she should be blamed.
KC2OYZ: "Where would we be now if we hadn't started doing what we did in the 80s?"
Probably better off.
For one thing, if we had worked on energy independence seriously instead of supporting dictators like Saddam who happened to have oil, we'd probably have avoided a couple of costly and devastating wars.
If we hadn't deregulated banking (in order to have a housing bubble) to the point that all sorts of bad mortgages were made, we'd not have a crumbling economy and falling house prices. And the Dow would probably be in a lot better shape.
If we'd focused on the creation of good jobs and modernizing our industries, we wouldn't have a decaying middle class and a widening gap between the very rich and everyone else.
If we'd put resources into things like education, transit, and good economy cars, we'd be competitive in the world markets and wouldn't be panicking every time the price of oil spiked. We'd also be keeping more wealth here.
There's lots more we could have done to avoid the messes we're in now. Some of us tried to do them, too. Now a new president gets the blame for the mistakes of others over the past 28 years.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2OYZ on March 5, 2009
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N2EY:
Points well taken. But I don't think any of it is relevant, so I shouldn't have brought it up.
I think the real answer for W8JI is that once you're President, you have to take responsibility. How long do you go on blaming the previous guy? One year? Four years? Eight years? Truman said 'the buck stops here' - that's what it means to be President and that applies from the minute someone takes office - it comes with the territory. I don't pity a guy who is taxing me to death while living like a king on my dime - let him earn his keep. And I don't mean just the current president, I mean any president from the last 100 years.
'If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen'.
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RE: The Case for Reality
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by WX7G on March 5, 2009
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W5WSS asks how can we know if we will be marginal at the other end?
Given the same TX power at both ends of the link, and baring non-reciprocal propagation, the signal strength will be the same at both ends. Say you run a trap vertical and the other guy runs a 6 element Yagi. You both are running 1 kW. He is S-7 at your receiver. How strong are you at his? You too are S-7.
If you run the legal limit you can be assured that you will always be as loud or louder at his QTH as he is at yours. When running QRP one must take into account that he will be 2 S-units below the 100 W station he is calling. If he is S-5 forget it. You are S-3.
Now signal strength alone doesn't tell the whole story on a noisy band. The noise level can be higher or lower at the other end of the link.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC5CQD on March 5, 2009
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"Where were all the whining crying vocal Republicans for the last 30 years while we exported all our manufacturing jobs, and deregulated everything that is critical to watch?
Where were you when Bush and the Republican controlled Congress deregulated banking, or gave out all the no-bid contracts? Where were you when a Republican former member of Congress from Texas lobbied and pushed to allow insurance companies and Wall Street firms to invest in bundles of sub-prime loans? Where were you hiding the last eight years when Republicans could have stopped the spending or slowed it down?
Now that we have a new president why is this unsolvable mess he inherited from other Republicans and Democrats suddenly all his fault?
The truth is we can only do two things. We can cut off all bailouts and spending and let it all collapse in a hurry, shoot some people, and start over...or we can try to spend our way out of this. There really isn't any easy fixing what we worked on creating since the 70's. Tax cuts for the rich sure won't fix it. We've been doing that. Deregulation won't do it. We've been doing both of those and it has not worked out so well."
Obamaniacs; Take the "spreading of the gospel" of your new messiah to another forum. NBC, ABC, CBS, and CNN kiss his royal ass enough. We don't need it here in an amateur radio forum.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by N2EY on March 6, 2009
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KC2OYZ writes:"Points well taken. But I don't think any of it is relevant, so I shouldn't have brought it up."
I think it is relevant to amateur radio, in a way. One of the things that's happened to amateur radio in the USA in the past 28 years is a combination of deregulation and lack of enforcement that have had some very bad effects.
KC2OYZ: "I think the real answer for W8JI is that once you're President, you have to take responsibility."
But what does "take responsibility" really mean?
Does it mean that we suddenly forget the messes the previous president(s) left, and how they happened?
Does it mean that we keep on doing what they did, even though the results are clearly bad?
Does it mean we heap abuse on the current president even though the troubles are not his doing?
Or does it mean the new President has to do some really tough things to get the country going in a better direction?
KC2OYZ: "How long do you go on blaming the previous guy? One year? Four years? Eight years?"
Depends on the situation. Some things can be fixed quickly, some things will take a lot longer and cost a lot more.
KC2OYZ: "Truman said 'the buck stops here' - that's what it means to be President and that applies from the minute someone takes office - it comes with the territory."
What Truman meant was that the president has to make certain hard decisions. Decisions that may not be popular, but couldn't be passed on.
KC2OYZ: "I don't pity a guy who is taxing me to death while living like a king on my dime - let him earn his keep. And I don't mean just the current president, I mean any president from the last 100 years."
Agreed. But it's important to remember the hard facts, unpleasant as they may be.
For example, by 2000 the Federal government was running a slight tax surplus. They were actually taking in more than they were spending, and were beginning to reduce the gigantic mountain of debt acquired over the previous 40 years. (Look up who made the debt grow the worst. Hint: it wasn't Democratic presidents).
But since 2000 we've gone from a slight surplus to an incredible deficit. That's because the previous administration spent money like mad and cut taxes too.
Anybody who has successfully run a business or a household knows you can't keep doing that forever. Now the various bubbles have burst and the lack of long-term focus has become unavoidable. And the fix isn't easy or cheap.
It's like the person who bought a car on credit and kept it cleaned and detailed, but never did things like changing the oil and getting a tuneup. And he made the absolute minimum payments on the car.
Now the motor is shot, the transmission is acting funny, the tires are worn out and the bank wants their money because the car isn't worth what is owed. Whose fault is it?
73 de Jim, N2EY
'If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen'.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W8JI on March 6, 2009
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It just amazes me the experts on how to fix the mess were are in were silent for 40 years while we got into the mess, and now want to use an amateur radio forum to slam a guy who has been on the job 40 days.
People are in a pickle, and we are deep in the pickle jar, need to step back and honestly look at what got us here.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2OYZ on March 6, 2009
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All I mean is that when you take office you're in the hot seat and you don't move forward by blaming your predecessor, which the party in power and their supporters seem to be focusing on. Putting blame on other people just shows weakness and inability to deal with the situation. Neither have they come up with anything that inspires any confidence in their ability to move forward.
I have no dog in this race outside of my own and the country's interest - as far as the parties and their leaders go, I couldn't care less.
I have a very tough boss and get blamed for a lot of things that usually aren't my fault, but it doesn't make any difference and I'm not paid to blame the guy who screwed up. My job is to make things work no matter who was at fault - that's what I get paid for. Public officials are on my payroll - I expect the same from them.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by N2EY on March 6, 2009
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KC2OYZ: "All I mean is that when you take office you're in the hot seat and you don't move forward by blaming your predecessor, which the party in power and their supporters seem to be focusing on."
The first step in solving a problem is understanding what caused it.
I see the current administration doing a lot more than blaming the preceding one. You may not like what they're doing, but they're doing *something*.
KC2OYZ: "Putting blame on other people just shows weakness and inability to deal with the situation."
NO. It's important to understand the causes of a problem to avoid making the same mistake again. Those who made the mess should not get off scot-free.
KC2OYZ: "Neither have they come up with anything that inspires any confidence in their ability to move forward."
What *would* inspire confidence? What *would* fix the problems?
KC2OYZ: "I have no dog in this race outside of my own and the country's interest - as far as the parties and their leaders go, I couldn't care less.
I have a very tough boss and get blamed for a lot of things that usually aren't my fault, but it doesn't make any difference and I'm not paid to blame the guy who screwed up. My job is to make things work no matter who was at fault - that's what I get paid for."
It's not right for you to be blamed for things you didn't do, even if you have to fix them. That your boss imposes illogical rules doesn't make them right. Nor does it mean those illogical rules should be imposed on others.
KC2OYZ: "Public officials are on my payroll - I expect the same from them."
They're on my payroll too. But I haven't been getting my money's worth for a couple of decades now.
Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Too often, we in the USA not only forget history, we tend to rewrite it. The current problems are the direct result of years and years of bad policies and bad decisions.
---
Some may ask what any of this has to do with "the case for PEP". It's very simple:
What good is an amplifier if you don't have a house to put it in, nor a decent antenna to connect it to?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC5CQD on March 6, 2009
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"It just amazes me the experts on how to fix the mess were are in were silent for 40 years while we got into the mess, and now want to use an amateur radio forum to slam a guy who has been on the job 40 days.
People are in a pickle, and we are deep in the pickle jar, need to step back and honestly look at what got us here."
What got us where? For the past eight years, my income and quality of life have drastically improved! Am I better off now than I was eight years ago? Yes, I am.
Now I have this "Good-looking, smooth-talking, half-breed" telling me that my government needs restructuring. He can go screw himself. I refuse to buy into his socialistic bullshit.
Anyone that has the likes of Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden on their team, should be feared. Our country is now run by complete morons.
My president lives in Crawford, Texas. And his father...my alternate president....lives in the Houston area.
Screw Obama! Nothing but a goddamned communist in "cool guy" black skin.
This guy belonged to a black racist church and no one had a problem with it. Poor David Duke got hammered for his racist affiliations but not the messiah.....Barack Hussein Obama!!!!
America has turned into nothing but pop-culture morons.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KB0TXC on March 7, 2009
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G6NJR Wrote:
<<It is high time that governments around the world get there collective butts into gear and put a limit on
1 : the maximum power into the antenna
2 : the bandwidth a signal is allowed to ocupy
this should include spatter ect >>
KB0TXC Responds:
Actually, I think that the FCC should start by allowing 5KW input rigs. That way, the demand for quality iron would go up ('iron' being the hollow state speak for transformers), copper mining industries would boom and the tube manufacturing concerns would be "stimulated".
After a few months of allowing these 5KW stations on the air, the FCC would enact 'phase two', which would allow full 10 KW rigs to be used by amateur radio operators. We would not want to forget the traditional AM guys, and our newly elected messiah and chief will mandate that the transformer companies make available hi quality modulation transformers that could handle that power. After all, he is going to mandate all sorts of things to American businesses...why not the transformer industry. (socialist that he is)
And OF COURSE, we will not leave out the CW ops...except they will have to use direct keying of their final tube(s) with their hand keys... I mean, we will insist that they be perfectly traditional short of using open spark gaps.
And speaking of tubes, this new rule change would allow the development of truly high power tubes for the amateur market, or will encourage some genuine good old fashioned amateur radio 'cutting edge development' in using hundreds of sweep tubes. Frankly, I will most likely take a second mortgage, buy a broadcast tube in the 25 KW range, then simply refuse to pay the note, and get my debt forgiven with a bailout check. I mean, after all, why should I work for my entire life and live a responsible life and pay my debts when others simply get a bailout?
Next, when I build my shiny new QRO with this 25 KW tube, (after getting an upgraded drop from the power company), will will be sure to have an image of our new Messiah placed upon the tube chimney, along with my rotary garden composter. This way, I will know where all the hot air and bullshit is coming from in my environment!
Finally, with this new QRO I will be able to get through these sunspot-less conditions and not have to hear the whining of those politically correct ops that sit on their collectivist ass and proclaim that some one world government-order mandate that we can only run a few hundred watts to our antenna!
Best, and I truly dont give a flying screw what you think or say, P-AI!
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by WX7G on March 7, 2009
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When I need some PEP during a contest I sometimes drink a Red Bull energy drink.
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RE: Democrats are at fault
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by W9WHE-II on March 9, 2009
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W8JI writes:
"Where were you when Bush and the Republican controlled Congress deregulated banking..."
Ever since the Democrat "power grab" in congress, barney Frank and Christopher Dodd have overseen banks & banking, Freddy Mac and Fannny May. while Dodd and frank said everything was fine, all of these entities were running amok and triggered this economic meltdown.
All the while, the Republican minority was clamoring for action.
But hey, let's not let FACTS get in the way of democrat talking points!
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The Case for PEP
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by KB5YLG on March 9, 2009
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Great article, but I still think understanding what is a resonant antenna versus a matched antenna, knowing how grounding effects your signal-to-noise ratio, understanding the processor, compression and transmit equalizers on your rig are far more important than power. People peaking out power are just treating millions of hapless listeners to an unwanted signal, and those QRO guys can't hear us calling them back anyway. Get some skill by getting good at antennas and at verifying the quality of your set up. And if you still need 1.5kw, you are definitely doing something wrong! Hide your incompetence behind your audacity. hihi...
David KB5YLG
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The Case for PEP
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by W5YDM on March 10, 2009
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Any QRP'er will tell you that it doesn't matter how much power you run or what you use for an antenna, you can work anybody, anytime, with anything..it just takes longer.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by W9OY on March 13, 2009
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yea and any one who works those friggin QRPers will tell you the reason it takes longer is because they are so pitiful and weak!!!
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The Case for PEP
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by W5DQ on March 13, 2009
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"Do you need that 1.5 KW? "
Uhhh, yes I do ....
Do I use it all the time .... no
Do I kick it in when needed .... you betcha Red Rider
Life's way too short for fat-free ice cream or QRP!!
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by NI0C on March 13, 2009
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"Any QRP'er will tell you that it doesn't matter how much power you run or what you use for an antenna, you can work anybody, anytime, with anything..it just takes longer."
Dream on! Propagation just doesn't work that way.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by N2CUA on March 14, 2009
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A lot of great info on here ...
I wanted to agree with whats being said about antennas being , probably more important then the compression or the power level .. I believe that I will always do better with 100 watts on a excellent antenna system then anyone will do with a bad antenna system with mismatches, etc.
I use an OCF antenna with 450 ladder line straight to a Palstar AT1KP Tuner. Out of 35 years as a Ham, that has by far been the best antenna system I have ever used.
( I just wished it was longer for 160 Meters )
Randy - N2CUA
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RE: The Case for Common Sense
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by N2CUA on March 14, 2009
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QUOTE : "Start a QSO at any power level you deem appropriate. Reduce you power level during the QSO in five Watt decrements during the QSO until you find the lowest comfortable level to maintain the QSO. Note the results. "
I gigggled a bit when I read this , as it reminded me of something I did during a contest once. But in reverse of what you said ..
I would call stations with my rig turned down to 5 watts and then try a couple times, and if I couldnt make the contact , up the power 5 watts and kept incrementing until I made the contact.. It simply amazed me as to how many QSO's I had with 5 - 15 watts .. In EUROPE !! It cracked me up .. SO ... again .. with the right conditions and a good antenna system .. the world is your playground .. :-) ( though it never hurts to have an amp with you need one. )
Randy - N2CUA
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by KC2PLJ on March 14, 2009
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"Dream on! Propagation just doesn't work that way".
Last time I checked yes it does. Propagation and antenna are the only factors that really matter. It seems to me that some people think the best way to win a argument or debate is make statements that negate the obvious. Opinions are acceptable however the facts are the same no matter what you or I think.
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RE: The Case for PEP
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by NI0C on March 14, 2009
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So, how much time would it take for you to work a P5 on 160m at high noon running 5 watts to a Buddipole?
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The Case for PEP
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by N9AMI on March 15, 2009
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"What is better: a 100 watt SSB transmitter running 10dB of compression, or a 1KW SSB transmitter running super clean?"
MM How about 3 4-1000s grounded grid that works for me. haha.. Nice article.
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