Aren't We All In This Together?
Terry Deuel (W1TLD)
on
March 8, 2009
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Hello, And thanks for looking at this article. As a fairly new ham (licensed approximately 18 months now) I am disturbed at the less than enthusiastic welcome that I received from many of the "Older Hams." I don't mean anything that has been aimed at me directly... I mean, as a new ham.
I am in that category, and it seems, we (new hams) even though we may have the title of General, are not considered to be "real hams", by many of the "older hams". We are not given the same level of respect that a real General of many years would receive. In fact, it's so bad that many times, I find myself just staring at my radio, instead of using it.
I have considered quitting Ham radio. The only thing that has stopped me is the fact that I do realize this is just coming from a one particular group of hams. Mostly, the older ones, in their senior years, who have been licensed for about a century! Everyone else has been awesome!
So, my point is: As a group (new hams) I wonder how many of them have had the same feelings? In another article on eHam titled "Lets take control of the airways" a few older hams have stated how they feel. Apparently, since the code requirement was taken away, they don't feel as though we have earned our titles of General, etc. And, others have gotten so bothered by all this crap, that they have indeed quit Ham radio. That is sad...
A hobby that could use more members, a hobby that few find interesting. Should we be chasing people away? Okay, so there it is: Please comment on any of the following: If your a new ham that has quit. If you're a new ham that has been made to feel less than welcome. If you're a new ham that has been made to feel as though their title isn't equal to that of an older ham.
To ALL Of you, older and new alike, 73.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N7YA on March 8, 2009
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I play music for a living. On occasion, we get some insecure heckler right up front smirking and scowling...but the last thing im going to do is slump, turn my gear off and forget about music. I enjoy doing what i do and when these wahoos act like that, it means nothing to me because i love playing music too much to let some little scrub bother me because im doing something and he is going home alone. The band and i just do our best and we always end up winning against the occasional little guy.
This is ham radio, you have to ask yourself if you enjoy doing it or if you are too affected by a small group with their own set of personal social dysfunctions. As stated in the other thread, this kind of thing has been going on for years. These kinds of A-holes will always be there, and the majority of hams you will encounter will be the awesome kind you mentioned. Focus on them instead.
I just dont see what would make you even consider quitting ham radio if most of the hams you run across are cool and you enjoy it...ignore the snerts, get on the air and do your thing. If you are enjoying yourself, you win. It really IS simple as that...you worked to get your license, the FCC made these rules and requirements, not you, you just took the test they gave you...you passed, they gave you a callsign. Sounds legit to me, you have nothing to atone for.
Get on the air and the old donkeys can go hang it in their tailpipe. Stand up and take your place, fellow ham. This 20 wpm will be happy to qso with you. Most of us will.
And always remember, this website is NOT the overall opinion that most hams hold.
73...Adam, N7YA
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 8, 2009
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Welcom KE7OSV!
May you make many friends on the airwaves!
I have been an amateur radio op for around 14 years or so, as a no-code tech. There are a few OFs around that will try to denigrate the fact that I did not learn code, but by far most amateur operators that I have run into seem to be very friendly and helpful.
I am into traditional electromechanical RTTY, (i.e. Teletype) and did not know squat about it, but my RTTY Elmer (K0TTY) who has been an amateur for decades has been quite helpful. Set me up with a beautiful ASR 28 and loop supply. I am now in the process of reviving and recapping an old hollow state converter (the demodulator portion of a 'modem'...a TT/L-2, which is around forty some odd years old, I think) so that I can copy RTTY off of the air. Presently, I use a RS-232 to Current loop converter from Black-box to 'copy' RTTY off of the Heavy-metal web portal.
Do not let the few nasty dispositioned OFs out there discourage you. There are many many more ops out there that will be more than happy to talk with you. I am hoping to be on HF this May... but I only will be able to run about 120 Watts with a ground mounted vertical, so aim your beam my way, and we will yak!
Best and 73!
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by G3LBS on March 8, 2009
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Welcome to ham radio. If you ever want a sked email me or join a few of us Mondays 14250 or lower SSB 11am Eastern. 73 Gil W2/G3LBS New York State.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB3HG on March 8, 2009
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Terry Deuel (KE7OSV)
Welcome Terry,
You have entered the Alpha Operator Zone. In other words if you didn't get it like I did, you don't measure up. I guess this describes what you encounter from some? Well, Terry we all experience this to one degree or another. Ham radio mimicking real life I guess. Life is short and you'll find that some of the "gruff" Old Timers can be you better assets, its a hobby, relax. there is too much to do to be intimidated. Jump in with both feet. A couple of things will happen.
1. They will not communicate with you.
2. They will communicate with you and accept you.
3. They even may take to mentoring you.
But best of all, beat them at their own game, as it were treat them with courtesy and kindness. It has a tendency to soften them up.
Enjoy the hobby, it's contagious.
Tom
Kb3hg
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by OE3SGU on March 8, 2009
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I think it is not necessarily only about code vs. no code, it is about how to behave on the bands. If you as a newcomer learn ur lessons, try to have a good operating practice (read the document by ON4WW/ON4UN) and get rid of CB-slang then every oldtimer will accept you. If they don't, well just forget them and enjoy the hobby - you have done your part!
In my former club there used to be more newcomers than oldtimers and some of them were still active in CB and mixed up Ham Radio and CB regularily. That's not the way I want Ham Radio to develop in the future. Even if licence requirements are getting easier we should keep some standards. Quality should be more important than quantity. But I would never let this be a reason for me to quit the hobby.
There is space enough for everyone on the bands, newcomer or oldtimer, and times are too tough to fight.
"Smart people compare their success to their goals, loosers compare themselves to others"
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by OE3SGU on March 8, 2009
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I think it is not necessarily only about code vs. no code, it is about how to behave on the bands. If you as a newcomer learn ur lessons, try to have a good operating practice (read the document by ON4WW/ON4UN) and get rid of CB-slang then every oldtimer will accept you. If they don't, well just forget them and enjoy the hobby - you have done your part!
In my former club there used to be more newcomers than oldtimers and some of them were still active in CB and mixed up Ham Radio and CB regularily. That's not the way I want Ham Radio to develop in the future. Even if licence requirements are getting easier we should keep some standards. Quality should be more important than quantity. But I would never let this be a reason for me to quit the hobby.
There is space enough for everyone on the bands, newcomer or oldtimer, and times are too tough to fight.
"Smart people compare their success to their goals, loosers compare themselves to others"
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KI4OXD on March 8, 2009
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Well, since you're only soliciting negative comments, I got nuttin' to say. I've only had good experiences on the air.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NU4B on March 8, 2009
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"The only thing that has stopped me is the fact that I do realize this is just coming from a one particular group of hams. Mostly, the older ones, in their senior years, who have been licensed for about a century! Everyone else has been awesome!"
If everyone else is awesome, why not hang out with them? Every hobby, sport, workplace, church, and everywhere else has it cliques and snot noses.
If I had worried about about everytime I felt "not accepted" by an older ham I would have missed 30 years of a fascinating hobby and a lot of fun.
Many of these older hams are professional engineers and radio guys, etc.. and many feel their ranks are being diluted by new hams that would have never met the requirements they had to meet to get their license. And some of them are just a$$es. You just have to understand that, accept it, move on, enjoy the hobby. There's plenty to do. (And remember sometimes when you hang around with those guys,even if you feel slighted, you might learn something. There's a lot of knowledge stored up in those old brains.)
So quit whining and get on the air - and have some FUN!!!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N6NKN on March 8, 2009
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Terry,
Have you ever joined a car club? A boat club? A flying club? How about model trains? Every group has it's welcoming members and it's "I'm better then you" members. Don't worry about the others. Which type will you be???
Enjoy the hobby. It really has something for everyone.
Rick N6NKN
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K3YD on March 8, 2009
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First of all, don't expect everyone to like you. The most popular politicians are lucky to have a 70% acceptance rating. That means that the other 30% are unhappy for some reason(s). Get used to it!
To get more out of Ham Radio, put more into it. Join a radio club or two, then serve on a committee, or present a program at a meeting, or write an article for a club newsletter, or work on a public service project, or . . . you get the idea.
Build your credentials. Not ready for Extra? How about getting Skywarn certification, or taking the IS-100 and IS-700 NIMS courses (free, on-line), or some of the ARRL courses.
Try different activities, bands and modes. Take part in Field Day, or VHF contests, or your State QSO party. Don't like CW? Try some of the other digital modes like PSK-31. Or, learn CW . . . because you want to, not because you had to.
As you do these things, you'll become one of the "old hands" of radio in your community. Then it will be your turn to welcome new hams.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 8, 2009
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KE7OSV writes: "I am disturbed at the less than enthusiastic welcome that I received from many of the "Older Hams." I don't mean anything that has been aimed at me directly... I mean, as a new ham."
Welcome to amateur radio! Good to have you aboard!
KE7OSV: "I am in that category, and it seems, we (new hams) even though we may have the title of General, are not considered to be "real hams", by many of the "older hams". We are not given the same level of respect that a real General of many years would receive. In fact, it's so bad that many times, I find myself just staring at my radio, instead of using it."
How is the respect lacking? By that I mean, how are you treated differently?
KE7OSV: "I have considered quitting Ham radio. The only thing that has stopped me is the fact that I do realize this is just coming from a one particular group of hams. Mostly, the older ones, in their senior years, who have been licensed for about a century! Everyone else has been awesome!"
The funny thing is, a considerable number of them may not be licensed as long as you might think.
KE7OSV: "Apparently, since the code requirement was taken away, they don't feel as though we have earned our titles of General, etc. And, others have gotten so bothered by all this crap, that they have indeed quit Ham radio. That is sad..."
There will always be a few who quite because ham radio isn't exactly the way they want it to be. The thing for you to do is to focus on the parts you like.
A bit of history: It's not just about "the code test". For the past couple of decades, the FCC has reduced the requirements (written test as well) for all classes of amateur license. It's happened a little at a time, but over the years the change has been dramatic. But with rare exceptions, the new hams have had nothing to do with those changes! (It's kind of like being mad at someone because they paid $500 for a computer last week, instead of $2000 for one 10 years ago.)
KE7OSV: "A hobby that could use more members, a hobby that few find interesting. Should we be chasing people away?"
NO! (As long as they follow the rules).
73 es welcome de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N4OI on March 8, 2009
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Terry,
I cannot comment on the situation on SSB, but there is an influx of very new hams on CW -- particularly around the SKCC frequencies. I suggest you learn enough code to try some QRS CW QSOs around 7.100 MHz to 7.115 MHz to start -- you will feel very welcomed and accepted!
73 de Ken - N4OI
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W2NSF on March 8, 2009
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Please try and get past your encounters with a few bad apples and start enjoying the hobby. If you're a General, you'll certainly enjoy the reception you get on HF, so ditch those repeaters and find out the magic of 2 way, shortwave radio communications!
73 de Jim, W2NSF
Will look for you on the bands!
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WE4VB on March 8, 2009
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Welcome to the hobby...
Keep in mind: No one is completely worthless, you may always use them as a bad example!
Enjoy being on the air!
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W1ITT on March 8, 2009
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Terry:
You don't explain what you mean by "lack of respect". You don't tell us what sort of reception you expect to receive. If it's a brass band and champagne, I must tell you that none of us "old guys" (I've been licensed for 42 years, so I might just fall into that category) got a parade thrown in our honor when we came on the bands either.
Be cautious of the "entitlement mentality" and mind your manners on the air. When I'm not DX-ing and building stuff, I hang with a group on 75 meters composed mostly of 30-year-plus radio veterans who have a wide variety of interests including moonbounce, homebrewing, SDR, and other high tech stuff. We get quite a few new generals who stop by...and they come in two categories. There are the greenies who shout "radio check!", refer to their name as their "personal" and go "on the side" when they leave. Nothing will remind the "old guys" that someone came in under the licensing fence the easy way, straight out of 27 mhz sooner than that sort of behavior. The other types wait until we identify our callsigns every ten minutes and then dump their calls in. At that point, they are welcomed into the group and given signal reports all around, and most usually some antenna advice to find out why their signals aren't stronger! I have a bunch of qsls from guys for their first hf contact, and yes, I always qsl back!
Again, I don't know what you expect, but listening, learning and minding manners will get you a long way in most parts of the world, including amateur radio. You would no more jump onto a frequency demanding "radio check" than you would walk into a restaurant, sit down at a table with a group of strangers and demand to know what they think of your necktie.
Whether you got a no-code General license or a PhD in electrical engineering, nobody "owes" you any respect. You need to earn it. Those of us who are now the old guys were wet behind the ears once too, and it was exactly the same back then. It's time to get over the pity party and get on the air.
73 de Norm W1ITT
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K9WJL on March 8, 2009
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Hi Terry,
I'm a fairly new ham myself. I really don't see any problem with the "Old timers" that you mention.
Maybe it's a matter of respect.. I know that alot of the older hams (and many of the newer ones as well and maybe you also) know WAY more about radio than I ever will. They used to build their own radios and antennas from scratch and had to learn way more than I did to get their ticket. So, I just go into the situation knowing that, and being respectful, and I haven't had any of the problems that you mentioned.
That isn't to say theres not some people out there that I dont like and that don't like me, but I just do my thing and leave them alone. There's tons of guys out there that will gladly help you, especially on this site. K0BG, W8GI, N3OX, WB2WIK, and even KB9CRY and others have given me tons of knowledge whether I have just read their posts in the Elmers or asked direct questions to them.
Maybe, and I mean this in a nice way, you need to be a little more respectful in your approach. Also, If you have a problem, don't bother them with it until you have tried to read a little on it and learn a bit about it. All the information you need is already out there somewhere in print. You need to find it and learn about it and apply it. When it doesn't make sense, ask them for help. Don't expect them to do it all for you. Alot of these guys have already paved the way for you already.
Do join a club, and do go to field day. Be there early, and help set up. Stay late and log at night. Operate only when you are offered a seat. Make certain that you come back to help tear down. You'll gain alot of respect by helping with the work part of the endeavor.
Also, I know a Ham around here and he's an unsavory sort of guy to say the least. He sweats like a pig and weighs about 400 lbs. If he works a little bit he turns bright red in the face, and he constantly talks about the "repeater". He never shaves, he has a weird point of view and says stupid things trying to be "cool". He is an EE and I know he's a top notch electrician because he and I work together sometimes.
Don't be that guy if you know what I mean.
73 and HAVE FUN!
Bill K9WJL
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K1BXI on March 8, 2009
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Terry.....
Welcome to ham radio 101. Norm, W1ITT said it about right. I have been licensed 52 years, and I came in right after the big change in "52" when the phone bands were opened to general class hams. I had my ego hurt a few times by the older class A hams, mostly because I had one of those new "K" calls. Nothing has changed except the reasons.
The only advice I would give you (from an OF's perspective) is listen, listen and listen some more! find the niche and the group that interests you the most and see how they operate. Learn how the different bands have different groups that talk about different subjects.
Ham radio has a vast subculture of different things, explore them all. Ham radio, as in real life, is made up of people. Some have better people skills than others.
John
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6YE on March 8, 2009
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Terry,
As previously stated, there are bad apples in every organization. However, the good eggs outnumber them 1,000 to 1 so seek them out. In addition, remember that you have a VFO and an On/Off switch.
I have been licensed for more than 45 years and I still learn from both older and younger hams. Getting involved with clubs and pertinent groups is a great way to enhance your experience.
Have fun and enjoy the hobby as much as you can while on this side of the dirt.
Semper Fi,
Tommy - K6YE
DX IS
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AI4WN on March 8, 2009
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Hey Terry,
Welcome to Ham radio!!! Sorry to see your off on the wrong foot.
I got my ticket about 2 years ago, too. It was a long time waiting. School, family, and corporate America delayed my entry for many. many, years. For what 'free' time I had I listened as an SWL. But then the opportunity to leave corporate America provided me with the time to study and get my ticket.
My very first QSO was with an 'old Ham' I had listened to for many years. He has become a real friend and an 'over-the-air' mentor to me. My first DX QSO was with an 'old UK Ham', also a Ham I listened to for many years.
I suggest, just as others have, to become active in your local radio club. I was invited to join our club by an 'old Ham'. I have been the club's Secretary and I am now the club's Treasurer. I was invited by an 'old Ham' to become an ARES and RACES Ham. An 'old Ham' helped me to become a VE.
I guess I really can't share your experience with mine. I have always been greeted kindly in any QSO I've had in my 2 years of Ham radio. That's over 6,000 look-ups by QRZ.com's count.
I will say the lesson I've learned from my SWL years that I find very useful in Ham radio is -- listen, listen, listen. If you listen you should be able to decide if you really want a QSO with the Ham on the other end.
Enjoy this hobby as much or as more than others. Have a good time!!! Have a great QSO!!!
73 Tedd
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N9XCR on March 8, 2009
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Terry,
Welcome to the hobby. Amateur radio is no different than any other venture you get into. It will be what you make of it. The phrase,"the squeaky wheel gets the grease" holds true everywhere. The ass clowns area a minority, so pay no attention to them. Give your final ID and move to another frequency. There are plenty of great people out there that will be more than happy to share a positive on-air experience with you.
Chris
N9XCR
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6TPL on March 8, 2009
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Well I must say that as a old guy on the bands 50 some years...I would not have agreed at all with what you said here.....But one thing I've noticed myself, I was in the first group that took the no code Extra test a few years back. What do you know...My Extra friends said "Its Jer the no code Extra" As for me I welcome and am glad to talk with new operators. However, I do back away when the new operator uses CB language. That shows a kind disrespect for our Tradition. Us old guys sort of believe in that Tradition stuff! But we believe in you new guys to! So stick with it and trust me one of these days you will be the old gays. Life is that way! 73
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC2RGW on March 8, 2009
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Unknowns are
How you introduce yourself to people on the air?
Who you are talking to and on what band and under what conditions?
People are people and there are people and topics and methods of operation for anyone on the bands. You just have to take the time to find a fit for yourself.
If you interrupt an ongoing conversation with a non sequitur as in a conversation about fishing and you come in with "How's my signal", it will annoy people.
Find the locals in your club and ask them where they operate and get some introductions that way. That can help. Otherwise listen more than you talk and take the time to ease in with introductions. It takes time to make friends at the local bar and rag chewing on the bands is no different. You have to get to know people gradually.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KD5NVC on March 8, 2009
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Ignore all that hogwash, As stated earlier in this post, get on the air and avoid those who can make this hobby troublesome at times.... Whatever your license grants you, use it!! I too have a sore spot for some of the supercilious ones out there but we all have to move forward and leave them all behind.
73 and Enjoy!!
Glenn
KD5NVC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WA8MEA on March 8, 2009
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I agree with the person(s) who have echoed the sentiment that we've all gone through "prejudice" in one form or another.
I was one of those Novices that was tested by a General, instead of being a "real ham" and being from the era when there was no Novice ticket and you started off taking a General test in front of the FCC.
Many are also discriminated against because they worked their way from SWL to CB'er and then to amateur radio.
I remember that because I was a kid, many adults really didn't want to talk with me. (I actually have a friend who says he can't stand to talk to kids on ham radio and that he didn't get into ham radio to talk to kids.)
So there is discrimination of all forms....not only in amateur radio....but in LIFE!
73, Bill - WA8MEA
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB9CRY on March 8, 2009
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though we may have the title of General, are not considered to be "real hams", by many of the "older hams". We are not given the same level of respect that a real General of many years would receive.
As you will learn as you progress in your life, Respect is something that is earned.
Maybe your perceived lack of respect from the older hams is in the way you present yourself as a newcomer, maybe the way you ask your questions, maybe the way you strive to learn on your own the basics and not rely on others to coddle you along on every point. Respect is earned, not an entitlement.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W1TLD on March 8, 2009
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To KI40XD: Your right. Looking back on this I see that I should have asked one more question. How many of us have had only good experiences, would have been a good thing to include. My mistake. Thank u 4 your comment.
KE7OSV
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W1TLD on March 8, 2009
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Here is a post from another article by, NY7Q. Just 1 example of what I was trying to say here. Comments?
Most operators are nothing but operator
-no coders nowadays. They know nothing about radio. Most are just internet computer jocks and think they are radio people. Not so.
Too bad.
I am glad I am part of the Real radio era.
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by KC8ZEV on March 8, 2009
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I guess its all about what you want to get out of Amateur Radio. There are new "tubes", old "tubes" that still work, "tubes" that are cranky and work only sometimes, "tubes" that are in bad shape and make only noise, "tubes" that don't work until they are warmed up, "tubes" that glow but don't work, and there are "tubes" that are plain burned out. My point is that you should go to where the "tubes" work for you. If you are being snubbed by the cranky old "tubes", spin the big knob and go looking for better "tubes". Listen. Learn good operating habits. This will help define you as an operator on the air. Soon, you will be a well seasoned, fully functioning, glowing "tube". My experience in Amateur Radio is all about the journey........not so much about the destination to becoming a top notch, well respected, widely recognized on air "tube". Some tubes still have the factory smell to them...........others have a distinct, musty odor to them.
I ask you.......which "tube" do you want in your radio????
73
KC8ZEV
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by W5DFD on March 8, 2009
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Just avoid the CB slang and enjoy! It's a great hobby; don't ditch it because of a few.
73's
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by KA9DTZ on March 8, 2009
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Terry,
Browsing the comments, there is a lot of truth in what people are saying to you. Constructive comments. You, ultimately, have to make the decision.
I grew up in a town where the 2 or 3 hams were too busy to take any time for a kid. Fortunately, there were a couple of people, CB guys, that did take an interest and helped me. There was a whole world of ham radio out there beyond the city limits. Don't give up.
You don't, and never did, have to know everything in order to become licensed. It's always been the learn as you go plan. Sure, the whole ham radio testing thing has been diluted over the years but that doesn't mean new people don't have potential. It's the same all over. Over the years, I've worked with other engineers that I was in awe of and plenty that I knew were good test takers. If you get your license and are content to sit in front of the 2mtr radio for the next couple of decades, I have to question the point of it all. If, on the other hand, you grow to whatever potential you have over the years then you are being a ham.
I understand some of the ill feelings out there among the community but it's not all justified. So many cases of the blind leading the blind due to so many new hams. Poor op skills coupled with poor behavior cause part of problem. The real problem is the blind who don't want to see and those who don't want to help. If we don't accept and try to be a good Elmer or the new hams aren't interested in learning the way hams have over the decades, we'll never get past the problems. Oh... and I'm pro-code but I can look back over the years and see code never did keep out all the bad apples... listen to 75 meters.
Learn all you can and contribute when you're able... be a ham.
73, Greg
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K8QV on March 8, 2009
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I'm sorry you had that experience.
I haven't noticed much of that attitude in my local area. We actively promote the hobby and give classes. We lure new hams with good food to our Field Days (summer and winter) and picnic radio outings. Maybe it works because the people doing the most for new hams aren't in a club, so egos are minimal.
Older members of any group have shared memories, old friends, and "in" jokes that noobs just can't share in. Don't take that comradeship as an insult.
I have seen a couple of hobby snobs, but as I said, it's the exception here. Try to ignore them, don't take sides in their petty power struggles and jealousies, and look for normal people. They may not be on the club repeaters, but on simplex instead.
Good luck!
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W8KQE on March 8, 2009
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Do what I do. Just ignore many of the pompous, 'holier than thou' old farts and work the DX! Thankfully, our signals can span the oceans and continents!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KF4HR on March 8, 2009
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Terry keep in mind the amateur radio community is not unlike any other slice of the population. In any activity you become involved with you can expect the same variety of responses. Some may like you, others may not. Sorry, that's life. Welcome to the world. If you truly enjoy this hobby and you allow a few bad apples to cause you to quit, well perhaps the hobby wasn't for you to start with.
As for looking for the same respect from licensees that worked harder for their ticket than you did - well... I wish you luck with that. It might help if took the time to understand what differences have occurred over the years.
Truth is, many hams did have to work harder than you to obtain their license. Just a few examples..., at one time there was no Internet where someone could access the exact answers to the exact questions of a amateur exam, memorize those answers, answer the questions correctly on the exam, even though that person may not even understand the question. And years ago, even people who hated CW, had to learn it to become licensed. And at one time a ham starting out with a Novice license had to learn enough electronic theory and FCC regulations to pass their next amateur test(s) at the end of their first year, or get off the air.
Yep, licenses and information on how to pass an amateur exams has become easier to obtain now-a-days. People had to work harder for what they earned back then, but that was just the way it was. So addressing specifically the licensing procedures; should an old timer have the same respect for an amateur licensed under easier rules? Would you?
Consider this. Imagine if in 5 years from now, the FCC eliminates all written amateur tests. And from that day forward only two things would be necessary to obtain an Amateur License; a) you must be a US Citizen, and b) the submission of one of three applications and a fee (your choice); Tech ($20), General ($50), or Extra ($100).
Given what you've gone through to obtain your license, would you have the same respect for this newly licensed General licensee?
It's important to realize that, compared to years ago, many old timers (whether they admit it or not), see the current amateur licensing procedures as almost a joke. Each old timer of course has a different view on the newly licensed.
As for me, I have zero respect for someone purely because they passed an amateur exam. Truth is, the tests have just become too easy to pass. On the other hand, I quickly find I develop respect for amateurs, regardless how long they have been licensed, who conducts themselves professionally and intelligently on the air.
Then again, there's the amateur who treats their gear like a toy and is heard rambling-on day after day mindlessly, just because their gear is sitting there.
KF4HR
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 8, 2009
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My reaction to some quotes:
"Most operators are nothing but operator-no coders nowadays. They know nothing about radio."
Yes, there are some hams who are 'nothing-but operator' and who know very little about radio.
However, that's nothing new. And in my experience, that description doesn't fit most hams today.
"Most are just internet computer jocks and think they are radio people. Not so.
Too bad."
Internet, computers and radio aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible - even easy - to be well versed in all of them.
"I am glad I am part of the Real radio era."
Me too! That era started long before I was born, and continues today.
---
It used to be that simply getting a basic amateur radio station on the air and operating it required a certain amount of know-how, plus a considerable amount of time, effort and money.
Over time, however, advances in technology have produced rigs that cost much less (when you adjust for inflation) and require much less knowledge to use (if you don't use the fancy features).
The result is that *some* newer hams have holes in their knowledge of how radio works. That's not their fault; it's just the way things are. Nor does it mean they can't learn; it just means they haven't learned yet.
An Analogy:
There was a time when learning how to drive a car required learning how to use a clutch and manual gearshift, because automatic transmissions didn't exist. Over time, automatic transmissions became more common, but most drivers learned to drive a manual because there were so many cars on the road that had them. (Particularly low-cost cars that new drivers would be the most likely to own.)
But now we've reached the point where automatic transmissions are the rule and manual transmissions are the exception, at least in cars and light trucks. Many models don't even offer a manual transmission as an option. And while the differences in cost, performance and fuel efficiency between transmissions used to be considerable, modern technology has reduced them to minor factors today.
So it shouldn't surprise anyone that some newer drivers haven't learned to drive a manual-transmission car. It's not *their* fault! And it doesn't mean they're not "real drivers".
OTOH, being able to drive a manual transmission is a useful skill for any driver. Worth learning even today.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K8QV on March 8, 2009
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"Yep, licenses and information on how to pass an amateur exams has become easier to obtain now-a-days. People had to work harder for what they earned back then, but that was just the way it was. So addressing specifically the licensing procedures; should an old timer have the same respect for an amateur licensed under easier rules? Would you? "
It's true that it is ridiculously easy to get a license today. A simple multiple choice quiz, no diagrams to draw, no intimidating FCC field office, and no code.
But that isn't the fault of the new licensees. That's just how one gets a license these days. Good hams are good hams, regardless of how they obtained a license.
It doesn't take much work, dedication or interest to obtain a license anymore, and the result is a lot of new people that never get off the repeaters, and often lose interest in radio because their only radio experience is repeater migraines. These people would have never even entered the hobby back in the "old days."
But the "real hams" are still coming into the fold, even though it's easier than it used to be. I've seen completely green Techs advance to Extra in a year, learning code as well, just for fun!
We have no control over government licensing requirements, and neither do the new hams. All of us have just done what was required of us to get here.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K1BXI on March 8, 2009
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Terry....
With that reply you just did with a copy/paste of NY7Q earlier artical leads me to think you maybe going out of your way to find people you think are showing you no respect. Your time would be better spent understanding the reply's to your own article.
By the way, much of what Larry said is true, but that is only because of a continually changing world. Like the arrow of time, we can't go back, today is the day we will only remember about when tomorrow comes.
Your new license is a license to learn, as was mine, 52 years ago........ John
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB9YKP on March 8, 2009
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Terry, for many years I wrote and told stories for a living, so if I’m long winded please accept my apology.
I understand just how you feel. I passed the Tech exam in 2000 at the age of 48. Bought a used 2-meter rig (doesn't every new ham), from a professional acquaintance, built and installed a simple ground plane antenna and awaited my call sign showing up on line.
I monitored the local repeaters and noted the operating habits and practices of the operators I heard. When my license was finally posted on line, I was excited. Since I worked in the media, I had no trouble or fear of talking into a mike. I found that one particular repeater was the busiest, and when traffic allowed I called “KB9YKP listening ‘xx”. A few seconds later, someone responded, but not in the manner I had expected. The other operator asked again for my call sign, and I repeated it using phonetics and listened for a reply. Again, it was not the reply I had expected. The responding operator stated: “You are not KB9YKP, I know him and he’s in Florida this time of year”. I responded by stating my call again and asked if he could be mistaken. “No, you’re not him and we’ll find you and turn you into the FCC”.
So, figuring there was some sort of Federal faux pas, I stayed off the air until my license came in the mail. The document confirmed that I was who I was.
Now with license in hand I returned to the air. I avoided the first repeater I used, and called on another. I had a nice QSO with a gentleman and when we concluded, I noticed 2 cars in my driveway. Apparently my “friends” from the other repeater had “found” me as they had promised. Before going out to the driveway I grabbed my license and my “personal protection device” and walked out to meet my ham “brethren”. Both men were out of their cars when I walked up and one of them took my picture and informed my they had photographed my house, my car and my antenna and were going to send it all to “Riley” in Washington DC. I exposed my “personal protection device” in my waistband and asked if either of them could read. I showed both of these “gentlemen” my license and they seemed profoundly confused. They handed back my license without speaking a word they both left.
My 2-meter rig sits up on a shelf a few feet from where I’m writing this. Neither it, nor I, have ever been on the air since. I found another hobby that satisfies me more. Over the years I can only imagine what kind of “shack” I could have built with the money I’ve since invested in tables saws, routers, clamps and power tools. However I never have to worry about strange people coming to my home and questioning me about being a legally licensed woodworker. I'll probably renew my ticket next year since it took me 40 years to earn it.
Of course, Terry, your experience might turn out to be better than mine.
73.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KA2DDX on March 8, 2009
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Welcome to amateur radio. I hope you enjoy this for many years to come. Please don't be discouraged by some.
I am an older ham, and a cw enthusiast. But, just because I'm an older ham, doesn't mean I have more to offer than you. In fact, I welcome you and others because you will bring something new to this that the "old" ones will not or can not.
I'm glad cw was eliminated. It's great to use, but it is outdated and new hams don't need to know it.
Hope to hear you on the air; cw, ssb, psk, whatever you like.
73's
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W4VR on March 8, 2009
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You did not say which bands you operate. If you get chastised on 75 or 20 meters for being a newbie, I understand...there are lots of alligators on those two bands that have nothing better to do but cast insults. Try 40 and 17, you'll find nicer old folks down there. When you upgrade you can go down lower in frequency on the 75 meter band to get away from the good old boy nets.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K8QV on March 8, 2009
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"Both men were out of their cars when I walked up and one of them took my picture and informed my they had photographed my house, my car and my antenna and were going to send it all to “Riley” in Washington DC."
They should be charged with harassment. You were more reserved than I would have been under the circumstance.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W7ETA on March 8, 2009
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"We are not given the same level of respect that a real General of many years would receive."
Even if that were true, you'd have to have been a General many years ago to know what respect you received, so what?
I can't remember a single time when I've chatted with anyone on HF that the issue of what tests had taken came up, especially when chatting with hams outside of the USA.
My experience was that I got my ticket, I got on HF, had a lot of FUN; got my General, got more band width and could run an amp, and had more FUN on HF.
The problems you are encountering might because you started on VHF/UHF repeaters, and/or joined a club that is not oriented towards bringing in new hams. Typically, volunteer organizations have a few members with poor people to people skills.
During the time it took to build code speed from 5 wpm to 13 wpm, people gained experience and knowledge along with confidence in their operating ability; the certainty of being "ham" crept into one's life from "playing" radio.
73
Bob
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W3HR on March 8, 2009
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W1ITT really said it all. Very well.
Too many people come into this with today's "it's all about me" attitude; expecting to change procedures and TRADITIONS to conform to their whim. Before I ever sent my first dit or dah, I LISTENED and LEARNED, and I STUDIED the license and operating manuals. Note, I said studied, as in "to learn," as opposed to remembering Q&As.
You have to go along to get along.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WY3X on March 8, 2009
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He's running the ball.... he's at the 50, the 40, the 30, OHHH..... and Smith is tackled by #48! He looks like he's injured! Here's comes the medical crew- they're taking him over to the bench to see what's wrong! Let's see if we can catch the action with our field reporter Al at the bench to find out what Smith's problem is! What? What's that Al? It's his FEELINGS!!! His FEELINGS ARE HURT!!!! Somebody hurt Smith's FEELINGS!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist... :-)
Carry on... don't take it personal, it's something I
heard on the internet a few years ago. I wish I could
find it...
73, -KR4WM
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Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by NY7Q on March 8, 2009
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Well, since I was the "one" to be called out, I'll respond.
back about 1953 I became interested in electronics and the morse code. "cw" to you new guys.
Well, I will make this as short as I can, I learned the code, I went to electronic schooling to be a Technicial person, I immersed myself into learning a trade of electronics repair. Along the way I discovered ham radio, and put my body and soul into learning about ham radio. In other words, I worked and studied my tail off to be a great CW OP/ham op.
I found that being a ham person was someone interested in bettering ones self, learning new things, learning how to fix radios, tvs or anything electronic.
It was called pride, workmanship, Honesty, devotion,
desire to learn new things...etc....
I was just a normal young person of the day.
Today, it not the same.
People do not care about pride, workmanship, honesty, devotion, and desire to learn new things.
People want things given to them, with no checks and balances. People of today want things others have worked their butts off to obtain.
Am I an elitist??? I'd bet so. Because I worked and worked and worked to make the grade as a person and as a ham.
Nothing has ever been given to me...I worked for each test of checks and balances....
So don't call me out in a negative manner if you haven't made the grade yet.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by W0ZD on March 8, 2009
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How many pounds am I hitting you, my first personal is, your 5 plus 9 by 9, how bout dat KX4XXX out there ya gota copy on me and one of my favorites "how am I making the trip"? I’ve heard this all on 20 meters over the last year. Where are the mentors ??
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 8, 2009
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NY7Q writes: "It was called pride, workmanship, Honesty, devotion, desire to learn new things...etc....
I was just a normal young person of the day."
All good things.
NY7Q: "Today, it not the same.
People do not care about pride, workmanship, honesty, devotion, and desire to learn new things.
People want things given to them, with no checks and balances. People of today want things others have worked their butts off to obtain."
I disagree!
What you write about is true for SOME people today. People of all ages, too. And it's not a new thing.
Maybe it's more prevalent today, or maybe it gets more publicity. But I know lots of people today, young and old, who care about pride, workmanship, honesty and devotion. People who desire to learn new things, and who are willing to work their butts off to get the things they want.
NY7Q: "Am I an elitist??? I'd bet so."
I don't think so. I think you're someone with standards and values, that's all.
NY7Q: "Nothing has ever been given to me..."
Well, a lot has been given to me. I could make a long list, but it all sums up into this:
Just being born in a country like the USA is a gift. Many people have gone through all kinds of hardship to get here, or to a country like ours, or to escape the places they came from.
We have freedoms and opportunities much of humanity can't even dream of. Simple stuff like education, clean water, and the right to vote are incredible gifts.
-----
And now for a true story...
Way back in 1967, I earned my Novice license at the ripe old age of 13. My Elmers were books, my rigs were whatever I could put together for little or no money. I learned the code by listening to hams on 80 meters on a simple homebrew 2 tube receiver, and sending to myself on a homebrew 1 tube practice oscillator.
In those days one could not remain a Novice; that license was a one-shot thing. Upgrading to General was the goal. In those days Generals and all other license classes except Novice and Tech had full operating privileges; the Advanced and Extra existed but they didn't let you do things different from the General. When I first heard about this, I thought it was odd that there would be four (General, Conditional, Advanced, Extra) license classes with exactly the same operating privileges, but I was a newcomer and didn't make a big deal of it.
However, it wasn't long before I heard stories about changes that were to soon to come. In November of 1968, the HF bands would be carved up into subbands-by-license-class, and it would take an Extra to get full privileges, while Advanceds would have almost all and Generals would retain most.
To me, all that meant was that I'd have to take a few more tests and get an Extra, rather than stopping at General. But how hard could those tests really be?
What amazed me back then was the reaction of some other hams, almost all of them older and more experienced than me, with much more elaborate stations. There were stories told of how you had to practically be a combination EE and commercial telegrapher to pass them, how the changes would make most hams' gear worthless and would kill off growth, and eventually be the end of amateur radio. More than a few hams were angry, thinking that because they'd passed the tests for General or Conditional X or Y years before, they should be guaranteed full amateur privileges forever.
A dark picture, indeed. Should have made me give up hope, right?
Yet by the summer of 1968 (age 14) I had upgraded to Advanced, and by 1970 (age 16) to Extra. Would have done Extra sooner but in those days FCC required 2 years as General or higher just to *try* the Extra. But I had the confidence of youthful ignorance, and just passed the tests.
Did I makee the grade as a "real ham" then? I don't know.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N7YA on March 8, 2009
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Well, there ya go, Terry. Hope this cleared some of that up for you...at least as far as a bunch of internet-frequenting hams go.
Adjust your squelch and tune out the jerky ops who want to make you jump through hoops to make THEM feel better. I had to go through this too, but i was actually completely uninterested in what these old bastards thought of me, i was there to play with radios and talk to folks who wanted to talk to me...not impress some old guys i didnt know or even like. Try doing it that way.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W8MW on March 8, 2009
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Terry, stay around long enough and you will see a recurring pattern with others receiving the same treatment you did. This phenomena of the old eating their young has been around forever in ham radio. Okay I don't know about forever. But I know about 47 years. And that's how long ago it was when I was a shiny new ham receiving my first unexpected bashing from bitter old guys. It hit me like a sucker punch and I sat there heartsick that someone would say I didn't belong in this hobby.
Being both a new ham and a teenager, I didn't have the perspective to see the situation for what it really was. I might have given up except for some buddies who convinced me all hams are not like that. I also learned the benefits of finding your tribe. That is, associating with those sharing the same specialty interests you do. Ham radio is divided up in so many ways that, no, we're not all in this together.
Acceptance is never an issue when you connect with good folks. It shouldn't ever be an issue at all among radio enthusiasts, but there is a certain ilk that derives all sorts of pleasure from setting new hams straight on just how unworthy they are. These days their weapons are no code test and less complicated exams. You might be interested to know the stick they pounded me with back in the 60's was lack of homebrewing skills.
Nobody could possibly contribute to the radio art by simply purchasing store-bought equipment. Real hams scrounge for components, wind their own coils, punch and bend their own aluminum chassis. And if you didn't do that, the grouches would rather see you gone. No, scratch that. They'd rather you never got here in the first place. I'm glad FCC issues the licenses and not the grouches. If they did there would never be another new ham in America.
The judgmental types of today will eventually fade away to be replaced by others sour over something else. You will become an experienced amateur. At some future time you might find yourself trying to be a good guy to that new operator who just got the treatment. Why does that sound familiar?
73, Mike W8MW
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N9XCR on March 8, 2009
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@KB9CRY
"Respect is earned, not an entitlement."
It's a two-way street, Phil. I agree that any operator needs to present themselves in a certain way, though, just as you said. People need to remember that conversations on the radio should closely resemble face-to-face conversations.
Here's an example...
I cringe when I hear people saying,"Over" at the end of their transmissions on the local repeaters. lol
Chris
N9XCR
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N9XCR on March 8, 2009
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@W0ZD
"How many pounds am I hitting you, my first personal is, your 5 plus 9 by 9, how bout dat KX4XXX out there ya gota copy on me and one of my favorites "how am I making the trip"? I’ve heard this all on 20 meters over the last year. Where are the mentors ??"
Bitching at them and running them off the radio instead of offering constructive criticism. That said... to hell with those operators if they're not willing to accept some FRIENDLY advice. Those are the ones who SHOULD go back to CB.
Amateur radio is kind of like work. It would be a much better place if everybody worked to help each other succeed rather than working only to fulfill their own agenda.
Chris
N9XCR
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB2DHG on March 8, 2009
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As a seasond old time ham I have to dissagree with you?
I welcome new Amateurs and always offer my assistance.My Club is dedicated to bringing in new hams and making them feel welcome and a part of this hobby.
To me you ARE the most valued participant of my beloved hobby... YOU are the future and we need you more than anything...
I am sorry if you did encounter some poor responce from any ham for that matter... Don't get discouraged...
Thank you for your article and I certiaanly do WELCOME you and ALL new Amateurs
So get on the air and WELCOME my radio Brother/Sister
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Over!
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by N2EY on March 8, 2009
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N9XCR writes: "People need to remember that conversations on the radio should closely resemble face-to-face conversations."
Well, no and yes.
On the radio, you usually can't interrupt someone, or give feedback by facial expressions or gestures as is done in face-to-face conversation. In addition, depending on the mode used, the audio quality of a voice transmission may make certain words difficult to understand.
Then there's the whole legal business about proper ID, and the good-operating-practice of waiting for breaking stations and such.
N9XCR: "I cringe when I hear people saying,"Over" at the end of their transmissions on the local repeaters."
Some folks do take things to an extreme. And it's not limited to ham radio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJCfUm21BsI
73 de Jim, N2EY
(over)
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by W3TUA on March 8, 2009
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Ham radio is just like any other club or group. Find the people who have similar interests and make friends. I've moved around the country quite a bit in the past 20 years and found plenty of fellow hams. Some were buttheads but others were nice to know.
YMMV.
73,
Korey--W3TUA
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KF4HR on March 8, 2009
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"Both men were out of their cars when I walked up and one of them took my picture and informed my they had photographed my house, my car and my antenna and were going to send it all to “Riley” in Washington DC."
That is without a doubt the worst "newly licensed" story I have heard in my 40+ years in the hobby. It's unfortunate but there are a small percentage of amateur's that feel it's their God given right to take on a combination role of; Dudly-Do-Right, the Pope, the FCC's secret police force, and Superman.
I wish you would have gotten these idiots call signs, snapped a picture of them as you displayed your license, then sent your story and your picture to the ARRL. I would have loved to seen their mugs on the cover of QST, along with your story. (And a harassment charge would have been icing on the cake.)
Rest assured idiots like this are (thankfully) far and few between, but it's easy to see how those circumstances would sour you to the hobby. For every Dudly-Do-Right idiot we have in our ranks, there are thousands of amateurs with plenty of common sense. Come on back.
KF4HR
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by W3HR on March 8, 2009
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A lot of Conditionals felt that way, and consequently never upgraded beyond General because their privileges were diminished.
I experienced a similiar situation - although my hesitancy to upgrade came not from any loss of privileges, but from the diminished entry requirements of the license I would test for!
After a 15-year hiatus, I came back into this hobby to discover that my Advanced class had been eliminated (although my ticket was being grandfathered indefinitely). As soon as I learned that the code requirement for Extra had been lowered to 5 wpm, I decided NOT to upgrade. At least my old dinosaur Advanced would prove that I had at least passed Element 1B (13wpm)!
Now, this probably didn't matter one iota to anyone else... but it did TO ME! In my eyes, CW was the epitome of Ham Radio and earning an Extra ticket had been the acme: a source of pride for the achievement it took to make the grade. Dumbing it down lessened its value. Maybe they would reconsider this code thing at a later time, who could tell? In the mean time, I'd remain a happy, unscathed Advanced.
Well, they reconsidered it alright, but not in the way I'd hoped for! When news came down that the code was going to be eliminated altogether, I had to do some thinking. If I was ever going to upgrade it would definitely HAVE to be now, while it was still under some semblance of the code rules.
And that's what I did. Sometimes, I wish I'd kept my Advanced - it meant more to me. After all, half of the Extra exam was stuff I'd already tested for on my Advanced.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K5MO on March 8, 2009
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Yes but....
I soloed as a new ham. No clubs, no Elmer, just books and a 14 year old kid.
I made a lot of mistakes, blew stuff up, shocked myself, and had a ball. I read and studied anything I could get my hands on (even discovered QRP via Mother Earth News, of all places).
It was work, but in time I made friends, learned more, blew up more expensive stuff and continued to have a ball.
It's not bad that it takes some work. Most things worthwhile do. It's not as easy as buying a handheld PC with a quick start guide, (the efforts of W5YI's ham-license in a cereal-box program notwithstanding) thank goodness. Those who aren't willing to invest some of their own time to learn and understand perhaps aren't all that interested anyway. Those who are, welcome to the greatest hobby on earth.
John K5MO
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by KC2TOO on March 8, 2009
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let me first say that as a new ham (tech for less than one year) I don't typically comment on eham, I usually read read read and learn. Anyhow, I am also involved in another hobby that has a similar mindset at times. I restore antique farm engines and equipment. I have gotten the whole "you don't know anything about that" from old timers before. If the criticism is constructive and I can learn from it, I do. If it is just the good ole boys mentality, it goes in one ear and out the other.
I am the youngest person in my company who does the type of maintenance work that I do. I make sure to learn from the old timers, most of whom are more than willing to teach me what I need to know.
On the radio, I enjoy several of the local club nets on the repeaters and I also enjoy a local roundtable type discussion on the mornings when I am driving home from Erie. At the time of day I am on, i am the only Tech, but I have had nothing but good experiences from the generals and extras who are usually on at that time of day. Before I went on the air, I paid attention to how other hams were operating. I'm sure that when I upgrade to general (hopefully soon, depending on the work schedule) and get on HF I'll run into the occasional problem, but oh well. As many others have said, that's what the big dial is for. As to complaints about me not having the code test, well, I got interested in radio after those tests were gone. If they were still required, I'd learn, as I am planning to anyways.
73's
Paul
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC0RBX on March 8, 2009
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One thing to be positive about is the fact that those older hams are dying off. Gradually they will become SK. Things are looking up! There will become fewer and fewer of them and there will be more band space for us younger hams.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by W9OY on March 8, 2009
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So lemme see
You skimmed a bunch of questions for a couple hours and answered like 50 of them or something. You passed. Whoopee. How does this make you the equal of some guy who has been engaged in the hobby for 40 years?
My impression is that it is YOUR attitude that stinks not the old timer.
I remember my first few Novice contacts. My hands were sweaty, I wasn't sure I would do it right. The guys I talked to led me through it. I just turned 11. It was all at once frightening and exhilarating. I sure as hell didn't come to it with the attitude: HEY BUD YOU AND ME ARE EQUAL CAUSE I PASSED A 20 QUESTION TEST. I didn't know jack, those guys knew jack. in fact they knew jack to the power of 10.
I respected my elders in the hobby (both in experience AND chronology), maybe you should do the same and you just might find the best friend you ever had. Remember BUD the old timer has all the friends he needs YOU'RE THE ONE IN NEED. It's called humility and being honest about just how "equal" you really are.
73 W9OY
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by WZ1P on March 8, 2009
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You will find that most 'senior' hams resent new hams for not having to learn morse cose to get their ticket. "It's not fair, you did'nt pay you dues" and on and on. Most of them are still stuck in the 1950's or what ever their glory years were.
Hang in there. Take comfort in knowing that even if they never accept you as a ham that at least they will all be dead soon.
73, Dan.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB9CRY on March 8, 2009
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I cringe when I hear people saying,"Over" at the end of their transmissions on the local repeaters. lol
Excuse me. I say Over all the time on the low bands. Never on the repeaters but maybe that is all you have experience with. There is a lot of parts of Amateur radio for everyone's interests.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 8, 2009
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W3HR writes: "A lot of Conditionals felt that way, and consequently never upgraded beyond General because their privileges were diminished."
Well, I got my Advanced in 1968, and had full privileges for a couple of weeks, then lost 'em on Nov. 22 of that year. So I lived through it, but somehow it didn't bother me.
I remember one longtime Conditional in our area who made a big deal about incentive licensing. BOY was he sore when I got the Advanced. Then when I got Extra...
At the time, I didn't understand why he didn't just go get one himself. He'd been a ham far longer than me; how hard could it be?
Only much later did I realize that the real issue was that he didn't want to study.
W3HR: "At least my old dinosaur Advanced would prove that I had at least passed Element 1B (13wpm)!"
But it doesn't prove that at all.
In 1990, ten years before the Advanced was closed to new issues, the FCC created medical waivers for the 13 and 20 wpm code tests. Get a note from a doctor and all anyone needed was 5 wpm for any class of license.
So holding an Advanced simply proves that someone passed 5 wpm at one time - same as a Novice.
Now you may say something like 'But I didn't get a medical waiver!' or 'my Advanced is pre-1990!'. But that's additional info beyond the license class. Might as well get a 25 wpm Code Proficiency Certificate from ARRL and point to that (25 wpm is faster than any test FCC or its predecessors ever gave for an amateur license).
W3HR: "After all, half of the Extra exam was stuff I'd already tested for on my Advanced."
The way I figure it, if the FCC or anybody else wants me to retest, I'll just do it. Code, written, old test, new test, whatever, bring 'em on.
What really matters is what one does with the license.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 8, 2009
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"I say Over all the time on the low bands. Never on the repeaters but maybe that is all you have experience with."
I think the point is that there's no reason to say "over" on a repeater, because the timer reset tone signals the end of your transmission anyway.
I used to cringe over "destinated" but then realized there isn't a common word for "I'm mobile, I've arrived at my destination, and I will be leaving the air".
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 8, 2009
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W9OY writes: "You skimmed a bunch of questions for a couple hours and answered like 50 of them or something. You passed. Whoopee."
Neither you nor I know how much he studied to pass the tests.
Of course the current tests look easy to those of us who have been hams for a couple decades. They should look easy to us after all that experience!
But to a newcomer without a technical background, learning enough to pass the tests can be a challenge. Particularly if the person insists on understanding the material, and not just memorizing it. (I've seen both).
W9OY: "How does this make you the equal of some guy who has been engaged in the hobby for 40 years?"
It doesn't!
But I don't see the article's author saying he's the equal of an old-timer. What he wants is basic respect, that's all. AFAIC, everyone deserves basic respect until they prove themselves unworthy of it.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N9SKN on March 8, 2009
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Well Terry,
looks like you have the whole spectrum of guys right here in your thread. Some of their comments supported your stated suspicions, while others congratulated, and encouraged you to just get on the air and have fun.
Some of the Op's earned their tickets under different requirements than others. Later this class or that Op got short changed on privelages due to changing requirements probably leaving a bad taste in alot of mouths. The changes then again repeat themselves every so often. "They're now giving away what I had to work for". I would probably feel the same way if I "Extra'd" in 1949, but the feelings of some out there don't make you any less capable of a ham today.
I work with a couple of supervisors that were helo mechs in Vietnam. No matter what us 'younger' guys accomplish or pull off at work while they are still figuring out where to look in a book. 'We will never be half the mechs they are' ...because we weren't in Vietnam. Same deal and none of that will ever change. Don't let it bother you, its just how some people have to see themselves.
IMO its not really what ticket you're running. The tickets, the requirements, the privelages all change - its what you do decide to do with it to better yourself and have fun with others and the hobby.
Find the good in it and others, Terry.
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by WN9HJW on March 8, 2009
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Whining and trolling is not a solution.
Sure, a few people will coo at you, and maybe that will make you feel all warm and cozy for a few days.
But what does that actually accomplish? It sure doesn't gain you any respect from anyone, if that's what you're looking for.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N9DG on March 8, 2009
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W5MO's experience was fairly close to mine. No elmer, mostly self taught with books. Minimal club involvement. But I didn't blow up much stuff at all either. I simply couldn't afford to! So I was extremely meticulous about making sure that I wouldn't. I think compared to many I've kept most of the smoke of my gear inside of it. Though some certainly has escaped over the years:).
And I surely didn't start out on the bands with an “I just passed my license so now I smart” attitude, or that I'm now a “big shot” because I passed some silly FCC test. After all the FCC test was a *minimum* requirement to get into ham radio. And I knew that it represented just a beginning, not an end. But on the other side of the coin it became apparent quite quickly that some old timers simply weren't nearly as sharp technically as they thought they were. I simply avoided them, I knew they had very little to teach me.
And then some other old timers were so completely stuck in old technology and were really rather clueless about any new technology of the day. They too had little to offer in my learning advancement.
I instead paid my attention to those who had/have continuously been building on their existing knowledge and experiences vs. those who seemed to have picked some arbitrary point in time and froze their desire to learn anything new. Yes there is lots of old timer wisdom out there, but that old time wisdom really isn't worth all that much if it isn't being used in the context of where the world and technology is at today.
As for the old timers (and not so old timers) of today who say that licensing testing is now so easy. To them I ask this: Can you still pass all the license elements for your current license class with little or no study? If so, then great. If not then I really don't want to hear about the “dumbing down” of ham radio from them either. And yes I do apply that same “criteria” to someone who past their license tests just a few months or a year ago as well. After all if someone's willingness to learn anything more or new automatically ends with the successful passing of a test, then they've missed the who point of amateur radio.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N9DG on March 8, 2009
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N2EY: "The way I figure it, if the FCC or anybody else wants me to retest, I'll just do it. Code, written, old test, new test, whatever, bring 'em on."
Yupp I agree, bring 'em on... I sometimes really do think that mandatory retesting is good idea.
N2EY: "What really matters is what one does with the license."
Precisely.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by NB3O on March 8, 2009
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"Here is a post from another article by, xxxx. Just 1 example of what I was trying to say here. Comments? "
My Elmer taught me a couple simple rules a while back. Maybe they could also work for a few more ops on this forum.
Rule number 1: Get on the air. The internet is not a substitute for a good QSO.
Rule number 2: If you can't find a good QSO, spin the dial or check back later when propagation changes.
I've never been disappointed with the results.
73
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NF7D on March 8, 2009
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Here Here Bob W7ETA -
I remember after getting my novice ticket, chasing drifting signals on my swan 350 hands shaking and palms sweating. Id give my self reasons not to reply to MORSE cq's out of fear. I did not want to fail with the big boys listening.... but I did and I would get ataboys from old hams that would slow down for me and give me the experience of practicing on them.
Very few of the new hams will experience that level of dedication and perseverance. Respect was earned and skills were built.
Man the world wants instant everything including respect.
A good many tech's treat me like dirt at hamfests.I have my call on my stick on badge.
Most are the socially ignorant engineer type's.
Id don't care, I move on with my personal memories of growth. This respect issue go's both ways I think there are more people that DEMAND not to be ignored now than 20 years ago.
Rich NF8V
Ex: KA7TZW, N7HMB, KK7PL, NF7D
PS: I started as a SWL with a old Nightkit radio I wish I still had. nobody has ever put me down for starting my radio interest with SWL.
Another thing iv noticed over the years no code tech' and the new generals...... some are primed for a fight before they key the mic on this issue.
enough said.............. I will listen to 40m cw for awhile and go to bed......G'Night
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by KE7KUS on March 8, 2009
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You must be spending too much time on 75m. I've been licensed about the same amount of time as you and have found I really like working 40m. Although others report OF's on 20m, I've had no trouble there either. I've had some great keyboard QSO's via PSK-31 on all bands, and it's rapidly becoming my favorite mode of operation. Bottom line for me is to move past the lids. If someone gives me grief over being a "new generation" ham, I note it in my logbook along with a note that starts with "LID:" and move on to the next contact. (These OF's are often easily identified because they can't ever seem to get the international phonetic alphabet right either and end up spelling out "SSB" as "SUGAR SUGAR BAKER" or "SARAH SALMON BREAKFAST" or some other equally inane thing.)
I've also dedicated myself to picking up code, and staying proficient at it, just to spite the OF's who like to throw around the "no-code" comments. My grandfather had several certificates for 35+ wpm code, so that's my goal. That way I can not only run circles around the OF's, but also let them know I wasn't forced to learn code, I CHOSE to do it.
Don't throw in the towel on amateur radio. There's too much to see and do on the air to let a few OF's get under your skin. Find your niche and run with it. It's a great hobby and too great to let a few OF's take away the fun. 73 and hope to catch you on the air.
Kurt
KE7KUS
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by KA5ROW on March 8, 2009
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Welcome to Ham radio:
At the top of my web page ka5row.com it says I Earn my General 13 WPM.
It was hard to learn the code. It took me 28 days to get to 13 WPM. I would listen to CW tapes going to work and again on the way home, until I was sick of the code. Now I do not work CW. I learned the code for the sole purpose to talk on HF. "I have earned that right." Now that the code is gone. I expect that we will get expanded phone privileges in the next few years. "We will get them from the CW part of the band".
I stayed a Tech. For about 8 years. I did not want to put the effort out to upgrade. I wanted a new HF rig and thought what a waste. Sense I did little CW work, and I could talk on a small part of 10 M why get a new radio. So I just got in gear got my 13 WPM certification.
Now I hold no hard feelings toward you new guys. Code is no longer required so it is not your fault. I just make that statement on my web page as a badge of honor.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 8, 2009
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KE7OSV replied on his Article theme on March 8, 2009:
"Here is a post from another article by, NY7Q. Just 1 example of what I was trying to say here. Comments?"
NY7Q: "Most operators are nothing but operator-no coders nowadays. They know nothing about radio. Most are just internet computer jocks and think they are radio people. Not so. Too bad. I am glad I am part of the Real radio era."
Terry, THANK YOU for starting your Article. I go along with what you say from my direct experience, getting my USA amateur radio license (the only one I have) only 24 months ago. BRAVO! You have DARED to speak the TRUTH...which is difficult these days.
Stokes (NY7Q) says of himself on QRZ that he is "suffering heart problems and dementia." Poor kid, when I was his age (of now) back in 2007 I took my only amateur radio test, ever. Last year I took and passed my regular California DMV written. I even studied for my blood test before getting my annual physical last year. I passed all of them. What is going to happen now is ten kinds of shouting and hollering for SYMPATHY for this ailing male born in 1934. Makes me wonder how many OTHER olde-tymers are also suffering undiagnosed dementia. Those of us that show NO sympathy for NY7Q will be dragged through the streets and stoned? [I can almost guarantee it] There's some kind of totally weird mental viewpoint going on among olde-tymers versus 'newbies' that isn't much different than young toughs organizing 'hood gangs. We are supposed to "owe" our existance to "them."
I'll be fair, though, since I know - personally and from years ago - some licensed radio amateurs who are NOT clique-conscious or belong to "gangs" on radio. Most of them keep silent while the extremely verbose "toughs" want to bring out their "manly men" side of triumph and conquest. I can understand their "real people" silence.
"Computer jocks." Interesting phrase. Out of place since EVERY new HF transceiver, even VHF and UHF handhelds have at least one microcomputer in them today. No exceptions. At least two companies have designed and tried to market transceivers that demanded full-size personal computer equipments as the MAIN PART of their products, Kachina and DZ Engineering. DZ is still in business. I don't know the fate of the Kachina. Somebody's "computer jock strap" is on too tight. Could be it restricts the flow of blood to their brain? :-)
Funny thing on what NY7Q calls "real radio." Way back I was sent to another "real radio" facility while in the US Army. 36 HF transmitters ranging from 1 to 15 KW RF output, four operating teams making sure it was operational 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Not a single transistor in any of that equipment, all vacuum tube. Gollleeee but these here boatanchor types all swear that THEIR stuff is "real radio" and this new radio stuff "isn't as good." Offhand, after spending my career IN electronics for a few years (only 56 of them) I begin to wonder about the technical smarts of today's licensed (officially, by da gubmint) radio amateurs. I do hope they've learned by now that Spark is verboten in USA radio, all radio services, and that 'crystal sets' are cute toys for kiddies to play with, pretending they are "real radiomen." I've met one who cannot shake loose the idea that his two-tube regenerative receiver is 'superior' to something like a Collins military R-390! :-)
Well, I've been treated like dirt or river-bottom slime if not continually harrassed by 'superior' hams who have memorized every single word of QST from 1915 to the present. Some of that was on-air for not using 'official, appropriate' lingo/jargon...mostly it was on-line in 'discussion' forums where these 'superior' beings let all their spite and bitterness hang out in the open, parading around their 'manly' Ids like juveniles. Its getting tiresome to me. Same 'superior' mentalities at work in computerized forums just about anywhere I look, an increasing attitude of olde-fahrts 'taking over' on ham HF bands.
As an old person myself, I can understand their problems. I just don't have much sympathy for them. Don't have but one bad physical problem and I try to keep a youthful outlook, my brain sharp with mental exercise. That's not good enough for some of these 'superior' hams. They were in "real radio" where morse code mode was the epitome of that "real radio." Gollleee, those Gomers must be a LOT older than they say, like 30 or 40 years older to be active BEFORE World War II when that old definition might have been true.
A very long time ago, somewhere between 1947 when I first got curious about this 'radio' and around 1949 when I first got acquainted with she who is my wife now, I developed a fascination for electronics. I learned that 'radio' was only a PART of all electronics and that hams did NOT invent everything in 'radio.' That's never left me. The United States Army solidified that feeling when I lucked out and their assignment of me to a BIG HF communications station when I was 20.
Perhaps the evolution of that military station and HF communications in general is what makes some of these olde-fahrts bitter and claim 'superiority' to rationalize their obsolescence. The HF spectrum has pretty well become VOID of the old means of communications (better than 90 percent by teleprinter even a half century ago). The station I was assigned to was transferred to the USAF in 1963 and the USAF gave it all back to the Japanese government in 1978. Finis. HF as a comms medium has been relegated to minor useage, backup in case of calamitous, extraordinary destruction of the HUGE communications system by satellites and troposcatter and microwave relay and 'wired' fiber-optic lines that handle data at GigaHertz rates. Many of these olde-fahrts are bitter that they aren't 'looked up to' as mighty men of morse (if they ever really were). The ARRL tries very hard to keep their illusions alive with their propaganda but the ARRL cannot change with the times so it is all a constant re-run and their pages are getting more like "ham radio for dummies" style, endlessly repeating basics of electricity. Example: the NTS, always promoted WITHIN but never getting recognition OUTSIDE of amateur radio circles. The Internet far outstrips the speed and accuracy of the old, tired NTS, but participation in that keeps the illusion alive that olde-tymers are 'useful.'
Just some thoughts. I'm not, never have been a clinical psychologist (my wife is much closer to that as a retired Social Worker) but I've got a working mind that sorts through observation of over 6 decades. On all that, I got my Amateur Extra class license two years ago ANYWAY. :-) I gave me some more legality to transmit RF for my own experimentation and could care not one whit for "DXing" or "contesting" (in "radio sport" - hah). I'll talk to REAL PEOPLE and enjoy that more for "rag-chewing." :-)
Maybe I might develop (once again) a desire to pass on electronics knowledge to younger generations. Not to make ME look good, just because I find it fascinating and I've encounterd a few younger folks IN amateur radio who also think so. In these forums, though, any enthusiasm is immediately dampened by these windy 'superior' hams (who claim working in "real radio" of the 1930s) who insist I'm some kind of 'newbie' and 'nerd' and 'know-nothing' who doesn't realize that the ARRL has the monopoly on "all things radio." Hmmm...if the ARRL is so knowledgeable, why does W1AW use commercial (as in ready-built) radio equipment? Couldn't their mighty ARRL LABORATORY toss something together instead? Hmmmm? :-)
Gollleee, those Gomers could just sort through dumpsters to 're-cycle' tossed parts and save the ARRL budget woes, couldn't they? Nah, I'm not going to bother even if I've run some 'upgrade of knowledge programs' in corporate electronics. Too many hecklers who love to tear down anyone who has more experience in REAL radio than them.
No, the bottom line is that these olde-fahrts NEED the recognition and rank, status, privilege they THINK they once 'earned' in a HOBBY radio activity. Anyone who came into the hobby after puberty are considered dreck, merde, if not worse. They (these olde-fahrts) NEED worship of their Royalty status and expect it. I'm not going to give them anything until they prove they've got the chops to REALLY perform...not by the ARRL definition, by the REAL WORLD of 'RADIO.'
I'm trying to enjoy the HOBBY of amateur radio. I've lived my working life and part of my hobby life in REAL ELECTRONICS. I don't have any pretense of glory and conquest, it is just a HOBBY. It was never a religion despite some who worship the Mecca of a suburb of Hartford.
Terry, I don't think WE measure up to these olde-fahrts' definition of how the World SHOULD Be. We will never be welcome in their imaginary fantasyland. Maybe that's a GOOD thing. We have less danger from succumbing to their quasi-religious mental disorders.
73, Len AF6AY
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by W6VPS on March 8, 2009
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It seems to me this has turned into a whine fest. Not a one of us will ever be accepted by everyone in our hobbies, vocations and even our extended families.
Good grief...deal with it....move past the people who are less than nice to you. Listen, learn and behave according to the established policies and traditions of that in which you are involved. You think things are rough getting accepted and treated with respect in ham radio? Try your hand at breaking into law enforcement. I'll give you a hint...don't complain so much, listen, learn and emulate the good ones. Throttle back or hold off entirely on being opinionated. Acceptance will come slowly as you learn a lot more than you knew yesterday. You'll soon realize you have been accepted and your opinions have merit because of what you've learned and what you practice.
Paul/W6VPS
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KY6R on March 8, 2009
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I've made great friends with hams of all ages. I've only run into a few curmudgeons - and I like them - they give me plenty to smile and laugh about.
Kind of like good ol' "Fish" on Barney Miller. (Old TV show).
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AA5JG on March 8, 2009
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"'Computer jocks.' Interesting phrase. Out of place since EVERY new HF transceiver, even VHF and UHF handhelds have at least one microcomputer in them today. No exceptions."
WRONG! Go check out the MFJ 9406, 9402, and their single band HF radios.
73s John AA5JG
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by KB4TPP on March 8, 2009
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Terry,
Welcome to amateur radio. Don't let the OF's drive you away. I am 33 and been a ham since I was 9, and feel your pain. Believe it or not, sometimes the OF's are trying in their own way to encourage you to upgrade- if you are interested in HF, go all the way. I myself am perfectly happy on VHF/UHF, digital (D-Star and P25) and use amateur radio as a tool to serve my community.
Thanks to an some anonymous encouragement, I am going for my General- mainly to serve as a VE, so I can get more folks involved in amateur radio.
I'll say this, amateur radio is a community much like a high school or college. There are plenty of "cliques" and circles of friends, and then there are lots of "loners". We all come together for the same purpose and are all here for the same ride. Ignore the haters and do what you are comfortable doing. If that is just 2M FM, or Echolink, or IRLP- do it and ENJOY it.
There are many people in the world who live in misery (and not just in ham radio) and make it their daily business to bring that to everyone else, as the old adage says "Misery Loves Company", so don't succumb to them, just ignore them and press on. Surround yourself with people who are about business and not whiners, and you will see things through a more positive light.
Don't give up, that would be just giving in to the haters, why fuel their fire? good luck and best wishes for a rewarding lifetime of amateur radio. Pass it on!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by QRZDXR2 on March 8, 2009
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And your point being...
What the old hams are really saying about you is true.. you got your license from the toy box. You really didn't have to go through the "work for it" like they did yet you got the rewards given to you.
But, if your going to whine about it, you might want some cheese to go with it.
What did you expect... you go take a test that most 3-5 year old can memorize now.. and you come into the hobby whining that your not appreciated or respected. Well neither are the old guys who are leaving the hobby to take up something else that is not so cluttered with Commucation Banders and week mindes polluters.
This all being said.. which I am sure you have heard it already, what do you expect ham radio to be? What are you going to make it. What are you going to do for the guy who wants you to help him in toyland?
You write like you want others to rally around your whining and finger pointing to the old ham radio guys.. when in fact it is you that is not up to par nor are contrubuting to the whole.
If you wanted glory, reconigition and phrase for passing a memory test.. go figure... harry did you find that lose nut? You came to the wrong hobby. You will find that to gain respect in any hobby you first have to earn it. Ya the old fashion way works but, if your a whining glory seeker that wants to wear the Orange or yellow .. I'm here to save the world shirt..ahttt wrong. I suggest that if this is what your looking for you need to take up a different hobby because your going to be very disapointed and let down when you relize... that it ain't so....
This the new Commucations Band hobby. Say hello, do a contest, and check into a net is about all your going to get from this hobby. (oh ya some groups run around with orange shirt on getting their egos boosted thinking that they are supermen. But the odds are 1 out of 1000 that you would even last a week in disaster condtions and want to go back home to mom.
You want to learn electronics and commucations.. go to school because your waisting your time here. No one is going to take you by the hand and put you on a throne and potty train you..
Whine away with your .. say it ain't so... but in the end we have seen your kind come and go.
So grow up and get over it.
You make ham radio what you want it to be...
if its not... what you thought it should be .. you know the drill.
Welcome to ham radio...quit whining
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by G3SEA on March 9, 2009
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E Komo Mai ! Welcome to the hobby :)
As in society in general you will find a wide variety of people and attitudes no matter what ethnicity.
Many activities have their cliques etc.It's a human ' tribal ' thing ;)
Associate with those you are comfortable with and politely avoid the others.
Enjoy the hobby no matter what mode or system you use.
A true 'Professional ' Ham knows that they never stop learning especially in our ever changing technology. It's ok to have one foot in the past but the other should be in the future ;)
73 & Aloha ! :)
KH6/G3SEA
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KG4CLD on March 9, 2009
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Remember this day carefully and a little nervously.
Some day, the shoe will be on the other
foot. Today you complain because you are the
receiver. How will you feel when it is you who is
the transmitter?
You don't think you will do that to someone else?
Well, here's a wake up call, you're doing it right
now! Your doing it with this forum!
Everyone gets old, its no secret. One good way to
deal with people that jabber on about you not earning
your previleges is to simply laugh it off, then like
a good conversationalist, change the subject to
something new. Don't give that G.O.B.'ler (Grumpy
Old Ba$#$*&#) a chance to regroup. Some GOB'lers
thrive on the misery of others. Dont let them gobble
you up!!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by DJ0RD on March 9, 2009
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For what it's worth, a General Class license will no longer get you CEPT license in Europe. They are considered not technically sufficient for European license requirements.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WB4AEJ on March 9, 2009
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Well,
I do think that some of the newer hams could show a little more sensitivity to the more experienced hams.
I did the 20 WPM Extra in 1990 and am proud of it. Times have changed and so be it. But I really get turned off when the new hams say things like they never would have gotten into ham radio if they had been required to learn the code. They are basically flaunting it under the nose of those who did accomplish it and it's rather distasteful to them. In fact, it is often taken it as 'haha, I didn't have to do as much to get my license as you did. I didn't have to work as hard. You're an idiot for doing all of that.'
There was a group of hams that were advocating that the code requirement be dropped altogether. They had an online petition and were asking that all that supported this effort contact them. Just by using their online contact form, your name was added to this petition. They made no means available for those who opposed dropping the code requirement to contact them and express an opposing view. It was very insensitive. It took some doing, but I found an alternative way to contact them. And when I did I told them so.
It is best not to say anything about it at all especially on the ham bands. It's purely a matter of tact and respect. In fact, you could learn a lot from those folks. I realize that not all of them will respond to this method, but a lot of them would. Just show them a little respect for their accomplishments and don't flaunt the fact that you didn't have to learn the code. Ask them about their experience with ham radio. You'll be surprised how many of them would come around and be a source of support.
Yes, we *are* all in this together. But when you criticize the older hams, remember that it is a two way street. Many of them feel a little violated.
It's frightening to think about but what if they someday drop the written test requirement? Then the ham bands would turn into another citizens band service. How would you feel after you got into amateur radio for fifteen or twenty years and this happened? You'd hear people on the bands bragging about how they didn't have to take the written tests like all the many thousands of other hams did. How would you feel?
73,
Fred, WB4AEJ
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WB4AEJ on March 9, 2009
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Terry,
I reread your original post. Let me quote something that you said:
'The only thing that has stopped me is the fact that I do realize this is just coming from a one particular group of hams. Mostly, the older ones, in their senior years, who have been licensed for about a century!'.
Maybe you can see what I said about some of the newer hams being insensitive? You refered to them as 'have been licensed for a century'. That isn't taken well. You are implying that they are old and senile folks. Is it any wonder that many of them do not take it well?
When you openly criticize like you did, perhaps you should think about how you are being perceived by these folks in their 'senior years'.
You'll be in your senior years one day yourself.
Fred, WB4AEJ
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K9MHZ on March 9, 2009
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Terry,
Welcome to the real world. With the possible exception of a church, no place on the planet is going to unconditionally welcome you just because you decide to show up. There are friendly folks out there and there are others who aren't. Is this new to you?
As a suggestion......try and network with some newer hams in your area and learn and engage in activities that appeal to you. This will be much more beneficial than castigating an entire group of people as old, mean, etc.
Best,
Brad
K9MHZ
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W8JII on March 9, 2009
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I think you're over reacting a little. It's silly to consider giving up Ham Radio because of some crusty old farts. I'm older than dirt and remember receiving some of the same things you experinced and this was 57 years ago. One particular instance comes to mind. A group was upset over my call because it was a re issue and now some 15 year old punk had it. I didn't even know calls were re-issued. I'm still not sure they were right.
As the new kid someone is going to take pot shots at you. Live with it. Ignore these people. There are many of us that don't care how old you are, how much electronics you know, or if you like CW. Spend more time listening and you'll find many people that you have common interests with. 73 Ron
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NY7Q on March 9, 2009
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No, the bottom line is that these olde-fahrts NEED the recognition and rank, status, privilege they THINK they once 'earned' in a HOBBY radio activity. Anyone who came into the hobby after puberty are considered dreck, merde, if not worse. They (these olde-fahrts) NEED worship of their Royalty status and expect it. I'm not going to give them anything until they prove they've got the chops to REALLY perform...not by the ARRL definition, by the REAL WORLD of 'RADIO.'
Not a true statement Len. You are, by admittance here, a newbie yourself, even tho' you say you are "old"...
You were handed the same newbie tests, no cw. Oh yeah, you were a pro electronics person in your long life time....Not the same old man.
Yes, we earned our rank, status and privilege through hard work and study. Have the chops to really perform??? now, thats a statement!!!
Believe it or not, some of us OFs obtained 1st Tele licenses and worked hard at it, study and work that carried over into our RADIO hobby of amateur radio.
Your haven't earned your due yet Len.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W9CN on March 9, 2009
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Well Terry you can certainly see the cross section of this hobby come out of the woodwork!!
As a Tech then a post code General and then Extra I have seen a fair amount of this too. My suggestion is like that of many others that have been posted here. FInd a group that fits your style and join it. Might be the local 2m repeater club or ARES (they are always looking for new members) or VHF club or whatever you can find. You can use the internet to find local HAM organizations (google HAM radio or repeaters and your city).
Don't let the "I am better than you because I walked 4 miles both ways uphill in a snowstorm to get my ticket" folks discourage you in the least. I had a couple of those too when I got started and they either came around or went away.. In either case there are plenty of folks that will be happy to welcome you into the fold out there, your job is to find them!
And you don't have to be a student of Marconi with a degree from DeForest and Armstrong to contribute. And all of those folks with the "I am better than you because I took the real test" were all LIDS/ Wouff-Hong award winners at one point or another just like all of us were.
And this problem has been going on since the first spark gap transmitters hit the airways in 1917!
http://www.w1ujr.net/rotten_radio_org.htm
This hobby has plenty of room for all of us.
Best of luck and '73
Mike Pappas
W9CN
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by VE3FMC on March 9, 2009
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Hi Terry
Yes we are all in this great hobby together.
Sorry you had some bad experiences, but do not quit the hobby because of a few people who make you feel unwanted.
When I was licensed back in 1992 I can not recall running into any "Old timers" who made me feel unwanted.
Then again I operated VHF for 1 1/2 years before I went to HF. I also had some HF experience as my Father is an Amateur.
Ignore those who think they are better than others. They get out of bed in the morning just like the rest of us do!
Have fun with the hobby, make some new friends. If you want to have some really great QSO's start operating the digital modes, or CW. I have never run into a nasty person on those modes!
73, Rick
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W5ESE on March 9, 2009
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Welcome to amateur radio, and I hope that you
enjoy it as much as I have over the past 33 years.
N2EY hit it right on.
I think it might help you a bit to understand how
the older amateurs feel, and put yourself in their
shoes a little.
Amateur Radio has changed a lot over the last
several decades, and not all long-time amateurs
are able to accept the changes with equal levels
of grace.
It's not easy for some of them to accept that
something that they once worked hard for has
been cheapened.
And make no mistake about it. That has happened.
(to both the Morse and written elements). If
you don't believe it, buy an old license manual
at a swap fest or used bookseller.
Think about it. How would you feel?
As a (fairly) long time amateur myself, I agreed
with the sentiment of the following article that
appeared in a CW net newsletter.
I agree with it.
73
Scott
W5ESE
------------------------------------------------
News we don’t like to hear, but it has happened:
FCC modifies the Amateur Radio Service rules,
eliminating Morse code exam requirements. The
new rules become effective at 12:01 AM Eastern
Time Friday February 23, 2007.
But…see ---’s suggestions below:
Hello Everyone:
As many of us suspected after reviewing the initial
Omnibus Report and Order, the FCC has eliminated
the CW examination requirement for all classes of
Amateur Radio License. This will be a critical time
in the future of CW, but all is not lost.
First, it is important to acknowledge how many
"older" operators feel. There is a temptation to
feel marginalized by these recent regulatory changes.
Those of us who worked hard to learn CW, become
proficient with the mode, and pass examinations
before an FCC examiner at 20-wpm tend to feel as if
the certificate we worked for has been cheapened.
Those that held the First Class Radiotelephone
license and in exchange were given what many
referred to as "a scrap of paper" in the form of
the GROL will likely relate to this. From a
personal perspective, and on a purely emotional
level, I am half tempted to no longer refer to
myself as an "Amateur Radio Operator." After all,
when I went through the various licensing degrees,
one had to spend weeks or months learning CW and
studying theory to obtain a license. Today, it
will be possible to obtain a General Class License
in a day in the same manner as is currently being
done with the Technician License. The value of the
title "Amateur Radio Operator" does somehow seem
less valuable. However, these feelings and
perspectives are ultimately counterproductive.
In the initial period after this latest FCC
decision, the Amateur Service will likely see a
major influx of new voice-only operators. Most
of these individuals will stay on voice, and much
of the demand for new licensing will likely come
from individuals who either refused to learn CW,
or failed to invest the time to engage in the
more rigorous licensing process. Once this demand
is satiated, it is likely that the long-term,
problematic issues of visibility, member
recruitment and retention, and overall relevancy
will remain. Therefore, it is important that
everyone's response to these changes is positive
and constructive. As such, I would like to offer
some thoughts or perspectives for your
consideration:
We will gain nothing by creating a "caste system"
based on telegraph proficiency or any other
standard. Attempts on the part of operators to
belittle, isolate, or otherwise single-out
individuals as "no-code" licensees or by otherwise
implying they are not "real hams" will likely be
very counterproductive. Such an approach was taken
by some misguided individuals after the
implementation of the no-code technician license and
it did much harm to the Amateur Service and CW in
particular. We do not want to take any actions,
which may close off the minds of new Amateurs to
CW. However, this is not to say we shouldn't take
pride in our CW skills and interests. Let's just
make a commitment today to avoid and discourage
divisive behavior amongst our peers.
If CW is to survive, we must do everything we
can to promote it. Ultimately, I have found the
best way to promote any art form is through
one-on-one mentorship. There will likely be many
who will obtain the "easy" ham licenses now
available, but will find something lacking; a
feeling of accomplishment. Over time, the better
class of individuals will come to realize that
there must be something more than just talking
into a microphone or typing on a keyboard. Such
individuals, if exposed to CW through the right
approach, will be likely candidates to become CW
operators. If the quality of conversation and
operating practices does degrade, many individuals
will be looking for an alternative. Let's offer
them the best.
In some respects, the latest Report and Order may
be beneficial. No longer will CW be the scapegoat
for all of Amateur Radio's ills. Many of the
"complainers" in the no-code groups will have to
face the reality that it is not CW that is keeping
young people out of the hobby, but rather issues of
poor visibility in modern society and a perceived
lack of relevancy. Such problems can only be solved
through outreach, education, and public relations.
These later solutions require true effort, planning,
intellectual discipline, and financial investment;
not simplistic solutions such as "get rid of CW."
We have wasted nearly two decades arguing about the
CW exams when the real problems are elsewhere.
Perhaps now, we will get down to business.
------------------------------------------------
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RE: Its arrl's fault.
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by W9WHE-II on March 9, 2009
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New hams should understand that many "old hams" are (rightly or wrongly) angry. They are angry at arrl for pushing to "dumb down" the standards nad bringing ham radio that much closer to CB, all to fill arrl's coffers with more money.
New hams can minimize this by leaving their "CB lingo" on 11 meters and learning about ham radio's technical aspects.
So-called old hams han help by showing the way.
But arrl will just have to take responsibillity for its efforts to "dumb down" the hobby. its perminantly damaged ham radio, created a rift among hams and has generally resulted in a field that has fallen FAR BEHIND the rest of the radio world.
W9WHE
Proud to have CANCELLED my arrl membership!
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC2QEZ on March 9, 2009
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I'm a new General, and fortunately I have not run across any elitists. Stick with it, there are a lot of great folks out there.
And CQ me anytime you hear me!
Mark
KC2QEZ
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W2DAB on March 9, 2009
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I agree will all who have counseled to ignore the cranky pants set who are probably grumpy about many other things as well*
I am in your catagory and was labeled on this forum as "one of those new no code/vanity hams" by some guy who bragged that I didn't do anything to earn my General while he was more genuine because he earned his advanced ticket the real way. The guy went on the say that he would NEVER upgrade to extra because his ticket showed that he "did something" and was bitter because they "took his challenge away".
I think that you do your own challenging of yourself and don't worry about what others think, take the advice to keep on the air and just blow by the "nattering nabobs of negativity"(hi hi Spiro Agnew).
I am using my ticket and new found operating license to build my own QRP rigs and expand my knowledge of radio engineering principals. My self study will never end and in the end it's the fun you have - not what a minority of people in the hobby say.
73 - David - W0DAB
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WB2WIK on March 9, 2009
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>Aren't We All In This Together? Reply
by KC2QEZ on March 9, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
I'm a new General, and fortunately I have not run across any elitists. Stick with it, there are a lot of great folks out there.
And CQ me anytime you hear me!
Mark
KC2QEZ<
"And CQ me anytime you hear me?"
Oops, this is the kind of thing some here were talking about.
;-)
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AF3Y on March 9, 2009
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Mark
KC2QEZ<
"And CQ me anytime you hear me?"
What??? WHAT??? Good Lord...... CQ Me? CQ Me??? You MUST be kidding, right? Please say you are kidding.
If not, please do a little, NO, make that a LOT of, listening before you operate again. Gene
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NARUNAS on March 9, 2009
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KC2TLL here - I can say welcome to Ham radio! even if you might just have your ticket punched a few month before me! Nevertheless - welcome! I must say that my experience starting 2m/70cm mobile has been quite positive. Always "Welcomed to the hobby" when I state my inexperience on the local repeaters in NYC area, especially the Limarc, and everyone to a man, or a woman, have been helpful! Ham radio is not my hobby, I must admit, rag chew is not my cup of tea, and topics rarely peak my interest on the "morning drive" or pre-net evening - NEVERTHELESS - I have found several niche fields, like computer modes, to be absolutely fascinating, and something that would make me stay up half the night... And that is a hobby by any definitions. And my point is - Amateur Ham radio is so many things!! Even if, in my opinion, it lost it's shine because of cell phones and internet, the possibilities of combining the old and the new, spanning the technologies to make a new sum of parts is exactly what Amateur radio is about! And one curious point - after getting more time on the HF, and hearing the ti,ti,ta,ti's of CW come through loud and clear in worst conditions - I feel in awe! Enjoy the hobby!
73,
KC2TLL
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WI7B on March 9, 2009
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Terry,
There are a couple of really nice HF nets (e.g., OMISS, 3905, etc.) that welcome newcomers and can help you work towards your WAS award, among others. Good experience in making QSOs, meeting folks, and having HF radio available to you every night on multiple bands.
73,
---* Ken
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KF7CG on March 9, 2009
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When I was a new Ham, some 37 years ago, there were these groups of OFs that did the same thing to all the newcomers. Just give the part of radio that works for you time and the problems with dissappear naturally.
Man, you got it good. People have to do a little snooping if you operating technique blends well. Back when you stood out immediately when you signed your call. All the Novices were branded with "N" calls. Not, N,(letter), number, suffix but things like wn0lid or the like. Until it was made renewable, that "N" would brand you as a newcomer until you upgraded or your license expired.
Cheer up and have fun, If it is "I tell you, I don't get no Respect!" then just do your best and have fun anyway. (With apologies to Rodney Dangerfield)
KF7CG
(nope it's not a vanity call, just the third call I ever had)
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KL7AJ on March 9, 2009
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My motivation for writing the Opus of Amateur Radio Knowledge and Lore (which looks like it may be eventually published...stay tuned!) was to serve as a virtual elmer. Its intent is to pass along all the arcane "inner circle" information to the new ham BEFORE he or she even gets on the air.
It's impossible to know where we're going without knowing where we've been. The Opus tries to convey a sense of history (and wonder!) about radio that is neglected in most of the current "recruitment" literature.
Why do we teach history in school? Not that we expect kids to wear powdered wigs and waistcoats. But to put our current knowledge inside some kind of context. Amateur radio should be no different. The past sets some kind of TRAJECTORY for the future.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N8EKT on March 9, 2009
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Sorry for your experience.
But welcome to ham radio.
And thank you for calling attention to a problem we must strive to correct.
I feel I'm also guilty of being a cranky old ham.
Even though I havn't been a ham nearly as long as many.
Ham radio is a great HOBBY and should never be regarded as much more.
When it ceases to be fun, it's time to move on.
You will also find that you need to be very thick skinned to post on Eham or QRZ.
The criticism sometimes comes fast and plentiful if you misspeak or make a mistake.
But don't take it personally, many times it's just cranky ole hams like me that forget my manners!
Again, WELCOME!
and 73,
N8EKT
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KL7AJ on March 9, 2009
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A little further comment
I would say that most of the perceived problems with newcomers is not the fault of the newcomers at all, but rather the way we've been recently RECRUITING them. Most of the methods I've seen seem so UNNATURAL for lack of a better word. This happens with any "product" you try to "sell." The organic magnetism that brought most of us into the hobby just isn't there for most new hams. Rather than "growing into" the hobby, they are "dropped" into it, without any context.
At the risk of becoming persona non-grata in my own hobby, I can almost unequivocally say that most former CBers actually have more of an interest in radio for the sake of radio than a lot of the "coerced" techs that we've had come through lately. At least the CBers have some context in which to put radio, and are looking for something different.
I think the numbers emphasis is greatly misplaced. We need to let it sell itself, IMHO.
Eric
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W7NWH on March 9, 2009
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CQ me, CQ me.. de W7NWH... Can I count myself as a contact?
I think one thing lacking in the new generation is respect. I respect my elders in this hobby and in life in general. HR is a culture based on a 100 years of tradition. One thing that keeps it vital is conforming to basic HR operating practice and carefully helping this evolve.
Radio technology changes but the lingo and good operating practice should live on.
So I won't CQ you on the channel anytime soon!
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KJ4IDH on March 9, 2009
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Well, as a recent no-code general I have heard and been targeted by some of the "old timers". Life is full of them. Fortunately my first HF contact was with KS4UN on 80m, we chatted for quit sometime, and he gave me some pointers, congratulated me on my license and sent me a QSL card, which I have framed over my rig and display with pride! The world is full of miserable folks that will try to drag you down, don’t let them! I’m having a blast with radios and hope you do too. Hope to catch you on the air!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WD9FUM on March 9, 2009
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'Why do we teach history in school?'
History teaches how yesterday's mistakes are turned into today's disasters.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by VE3ZXQ on March 9, 2009
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"Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement" Anonymous
Welcome...even north of the 49th parallel, we'd be happy to chat with you...6 meter band looks good, try it!!
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by G7VOT on March 9, 2009
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Amateur radio is not alone at having these sort of people, in fact you will find them in all walks of life and in every hobby.
If you are going to quit a hobby because of a few people with attitude then what are you going to quit next? LIFE?
Stick with it and don't be deflated by the ego's and show them you're better than them.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 9, 2009
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KL7AJ writes: "I would say that most of the perceived problems with newcomers is not the fault of the newcomers at all, but rather the way we've been recently RECRUITING them.
I agree 100%.
KL7AJ: "Most of the methods I've seen seem so UNNATURAL for lack of a better word. This happens with any "product" you try to "sell.""
One of the problems is that amateur radio isn't just one 'product', but a whole bunch of them.
One ham is working weak-signal grayline CW DX on 160 with the latest rig, another is in an old-buzzard roundtable on 75 AM with vintage equipment, a third is trying out QRP PSK31 on 20, a fourth is mobile on 2 meter FM with a handheld, a fifth is getting set up for EME on 1296 with all-homebrew equipment....the list goes on and on. All different, yet all of them, and much much more, are "real" ham radio.
How do you 'sell' something that diverse?
KL7AJ: "The organic magnetism that brought most of us into the hobby just isn't there for most new hams. Rather than "growing into" the hobby, they are "dropped" into it, without any context."
I don't know what you mean by 'organic magnetism', but maybe that's just me.
One thing the old Novice license and the entire structure did was to set up a pretty clear learning path. Newcomers didn't have to follow it, but it was there for them.
KL7AJ: "At the risk of becoming persona non-grata in my own hobby, I can almost unequivocally say that most former CBers actually have more of an interest in radio for the sake of radio than a lot of the "coerced" techs that we've had come through lately. At least the CBers have some context in which to put radio, and are looking for something different."
The term I use is "radio for its own sake". That's the essential part of Amateur Radio; it's the journey, not the destination.
I think *some* cb folks have that idea, but for many others, cb was simply a way to express themselves in the pre-internet days. At least around here, cb has all but disappeared.
KL7AJ: "I think the numbers emphasis is greatly misplaced. We need to let it sell itself, IMHO."
The big problem is lack of publicity. Many people don't know Amateur Radio even exists, or if they do, their image is quite inaccurate. (When someone finds out I'm a ham and then wants to know my "handle" and what channel I'm on, I know I have a lot of explaining to do).
When was the last time you saw Amateur Radio portrayed in a positive way on a TV show, in a movie, major magazine, etc.? Or even portrayed at all?
"Radio for its own sake" isn't something many folks will be interested in, regardless of how it is sold. But we won't get anyone if they don't know about it.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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One big put on.
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by AI2IA on March 9, 2009
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Come on! What buffoons would take this seriously?
Older hams are to be considered the boogey men?
This "article" is just a provocation.
Only fools would take sides on this phoney.
It is deserving of only one comment:
Ham radio is whatever you make it for yourself.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by G0GQK on March 9, 2009
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There are always people who are unsympathetic to bad manners, and the first of the respondents wasn't particularly helpful. Some people like the idea of giving newcomers in lots of activities, a baptism of fire.
Many of the recent radio amateurs in the UK complain of the rudeness shown to them by others who hold a full license, but to me, if they've passed an examination, and have a call sign why should I not show them how radio amateurs should converse with each other whether they be a 2E0 or a G0.
Kind regards Mel G0GQK
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 9, 2009
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NY7Q got angry on March 9, 2009:
[AF6AY wrote previously] "No, the bottom line is that these olde-fahrts NEED the recognition and rank, status, privilege they THINK they once 'earned' in a HOBBY radio activity. Anyone who came into the hobby after puberty are considered dreck, merde, if not worse. They (these olde-fahrts) NEED worship of their Royalty status and expect it. I'm not going to give them anything until they prove they've got the chops to REALLY perform...not by the ARRL definition, by the REAL WORLD of 'RADIO.'"
NY7Q: "Not a true statement Len. You are, by admittance here, a newbie yourself, even tho' you say you are "old"..."
I "say" I am old?!? Chronologically, I am 76 now, got my first-ever amateur radio license at 74. The Department of Defense knows my age, the Department of the Army knew my age, the Social Security Administration still knows my age, plus the IRS, the Franchise Tax Board of California, the state of Illinois did and California DMV still does know, the federal agencies of the FCC, NSA, CIA, and DoE know my true age. Oddly enough, I've got copies of all the documents of those named agencies proving that my chronological age is what it IS. It isn't what I "SAY" it is.
YOU SAY I am a 'newbie.' ONLY for an AMATEUR radio LICENSE. My first FCC Radiotelephone Operator license was granted in March, 1956...which was 53 years ago. The U.S.Army made me a Signal Corps soldier in late March, 1952, assigned me to the third-largest Army radio station ADA in Tokyo, Japan, in early February, 1953. The US Army didn't need any 'license certificate' to have me or any other personnel at ADA operate 36 HF transmitters ranging from 1 to 15 KW RF output (expanded later to 42 transmitters ranging from 1 to 40 KW by end of 1955). Not to mention ALSO being an operator of VHF-UHF radio relay equipment, TTY and
Voice 'carrier' equipment or how our station had to perform in the worldwide ACAN. That was just in my first three years as a professional. Since then, as a CIVILIAN I began work in southern California aerospace electronics in November, 1956, doing everything from Environmental Test, Radar Set testing, Electronic Warfare R&D, Metrology (test equipment calibration, repair), IFF transponder development, circuit and system design for RF-utilizing R&D projects under DoD and DoT contracts of employers, even to having a partnership utilizing a PLMRS VHF two-way radio Commercial-Professional license in which I was the signatory responsible person. That can also include civil aviation radio comm and nav test equipment (VHF on up to L-Band for DME and TACAN) and as a broadcast engineer at four broadcasting stations in Illinois-Wisconsin (in 1956) plus one in California (in 1961).
I am leaving out some contract work for VLF, special HF direction-finding, and field testing of encrypted land forces field radio (USA and USMC) which may still have some security classification (unknown) today. I've left out membership in the Old Crows (a professional association of Electronic Warfare specialists) and Life Membership in the IEEE (another
professional association of Electrical and Electronic Engineers)...and being a contributor to and later Associate Editor at Ham Radio Magazine. Yah, I be a 'noobie' who don' know 'nuttin since I NEVER took any beeping code test...:-)
NY7Q: "You were handed the same newbie tests, no cw."
Hay, like kiss my yes, big-shot. On 25 Feb 07 I was administered the SAME LEGAL tests for, respectively, Technician, General, and Amateur Extra test elements as any other license applicant would be given; I was the only one that day doing ALL THREE in front of an ARRL VEC examination team, composed of N6ZZK, KF6UXT, W6LPJ, and KD6PLU, all Extras. I passed all three tests with a total of 120 questions, missing only 6 wrong. That's a 95% correct score, observed of all four examiners separately checking all three score scheets; examiners do not give out score percentages, only if one passes or fails. The observant folks can determine an approximate score percentage as I did. There were NO "newbie tests," snarky big-shot.
ANYONE, previously licensed or not, were all given the SAME type of test sheets from the prepared ones from each examination team. More importantly, THERE WAS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT TO TAKE ANY MORSE CODE COGNITION TESTS FOR A UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AMATEUR RADIO LICENSE ON OR AFTER 23 FEBRUARY 2007. NONE. It didn't matter if one was chronologically 'old' or young, previously licensed in anything or even be an ex-USN 'hotshot' CW operator.
.............
NY7Q: "Oh yeah, you were a pro electronics person in your long life time....Not the same old man."
WHAT is that supposed to mean? I never started out 'automatically equipped' with all kinds of smarts like some imply. I never had all those 'advantages' (that N2EY kept trying to imply) but had to WORK and STUDY just like anyone else who wanted to advance and learn and try to keep up with the electronics state of the art. I started being a Pro in 1952 and was still a Pro in 2008 (haven't done any Pro contract work in 2009 yet).
..............
NY7Q: "Yes, we earned our rank, status and privilege through hard work and study."
WTF did you think I did, dipswitch? Hah? I wasn't sitting around slugging beer, reflecting on glory days in a Navy radioroom as a 'hotshot CW op' while dress whites kept 'shrinking.'...or playing at being a Professional Amateur with a code key in the latter half of the past century. 'Rank, status, and privilege' were there to 'earn' AFTER they were put there POLITICALLY. That's REAL history, not the simplified-expurgated ARRL 'history' of ham. In the beginning there were NO classes based on testing...by mid-2000 there were SIX...after 88 years and 4 different federal agencies regulating USA radio...ALL civil radio here, not just a bunch of radio hobbyists 'earning' fancy titles of 'importance.'
...............
NY7Q: "Believe it or not, some of us OFs obtained 1st Tele licenses and worked hard at it, study and work that carried over into our RADIO hobby of amateur radio."
Well, goodie for you. As a 'hotshot CW op' in the USN did you enlist ALEADY being capable of near-perfect copy on a manual typewriter at 20 WPM rates? Or did the USN TEACH you while providing three hots and cot...and make you PRACTICE until you were either good enough or tossed into some other seaman rank/specialty? Did you?
In 1955 the Selective Service was DRAFTING into the USA and USMC. Some, to avoid being shot at directly, joined the USN and USAF. That is also history. The Korean War shooting period lasted June 1950 to July 1953. I enlisted voluntarily in March, 1952. I was sent to Fort Monmouth, NJ, to study microwave radio relay. I was then assigned to the Far East Command
and wound up at the Signal Battalion and station I've mentioned before. It would be nearly two years before I was working my MOS. During that period I was REQUIRED to learn, use, operate radio equipment that I was NEVER schooled in; it was LEARN it by study and a brief on-the-job 'training' explanation. We either performed good enough or we got re-assigned.
About two that I recall couldn't cut it and were shipped elsewhere. We didn't sit around 'reading meters' or other easy BS that some other hotshot CW ops have said to me. Those never realize that the Army had the primary mission of "to close with, and destroy the enemy." In short we were "soldiers first, specialists second." Ask anyone who was a soldier
with a non-line-outfit specialty in the early 1950s. Sailors whose specialty is being 'hotshot CW ops' live IN a ship, aren't forced to train to get very up-close-and-personal (that is, face to face) with any enemy...during whatever free time they have AFTER pulling watch in a radio room. Oh, yeah, USA and USMC personnel had to learn to live anywhere IN the field, not in a nice steel shelter of a ship, quaking only when a GQ klaxon sounds off. Don't give me any glorious war stories, sparky.
I won't bother with any description of CIVILIAN work where I HAD to learn new stuff AND use it properly after MY Personal study...or fail to get a regular paycheck. That bothers most other AMATEUR hotshot CW ops whose ONLY professional radio work (if any) was as a civilian.
..............
NY7Q: "Your haven't earned your due yet Len."
Up yours, hotshot CW op, I never HAD to learn 'CW' or use it from 1952 onwards. I've received LEGAL documentation that I passed ALL REQUIRED TESTS to have an Amateur Extra USA amateur radio license. NONE of that REQUIRES me to salute each and every hotshot CW op NOR prohibits me for speaking MY mind to those same hotshots. Got that, sparky? Do you read that loud and clear?
...............
I decided late in life to enter USA amateur radio. Perhaps it was too much enthusiasm left over from seeing 'my side' of a political battle becoming law. I really thought it might be a fun thing to do in my retirement. Okay, I was WRONG in that supposition. I find all the rampant cliquishness alive and in full battle cry to claim They are so spay-shul, to have all regulations in amateur radio frozen to those when and what clique did in its youth and wants all others to do now...Just Like They Did. Enjoy your pseudosuperiority, sparky, it won't last long.
36.5, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 9, 2009
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WB4AEJ tried the 'seniority' ploy on March 9, 2009 in response to Terry Deuel:
"When you openly criticize like you did, perhaps you should think about how you are being perceived by these folks in their 'senior years'. You'll be in your senior years one day yourself."
Here's a clue, hotdog: I was 74 when I took my ONLY amateur radio test. I fully agree with Terry since I've since been 'corrected' on-air by those same not-wonderful 'senior' critics, as well as continuously attacked for my viewpoints off-air on forums AND in FCC documents.
Kindly don't try this "I'm older and know better than you" parental BS attitude. It is just snarky and ego-centric...particularly for a HOBBY activity. Don't forget that I have lived among all of these chronological age types and observed ALL their personal attitude variations for over half a century. It isn't always a pretty sight.
Ever since 1991, USA amateur radio has been (sometimes bitterly) DIVIDED by RANK, especially when the no-code-test Technician class was created. Heck and darn, the DIVISION goes back well before 1991, all the way to when all the rank-status-privilege Class Distinction BEGAN in USA amateur radio. Those who achieved higher Rank sometimes out-do each other with claims of 'superiority.'
At the time of the first USA radio regulating agency starting in 1912, there was NO class distinction other than geographical. Of course the ARRL wouldn't be incorporated until 1914. By 1997 there were 6 classes, very distinct by test, with 3 different code cognition rates of that license test. The ONLY national organization for USA amateur radio was then 83. After 3 previous federal agencies, the FCC, came into existance in 1934. I am two years older than the FCC. :-)
By 1998 it seems that the FCC didn't think SIX different classes were necessary in the PUBLIC interest so docket 98-143 was created and NPRM released for public (note I say PUBLIC, it wasn't amateur-licensee-only) comment. In Memorandum Report and Order 99-612 (released in December 1999), 'restructuring' happened, effective in mid-2000. The number of new license classes were reduced to THREE and ALL code test rates set at 5 WPM. Previous to 1998 there were several Petitions for restructuring and the ARRL actively did their polical lobbying to HALT any possible reduction of the Class Distinction. The ARRL lobbying was only partially effective. Anyone can pay attention to footnote references in R&O 99-612 to see that. It is THERE. For a while the ARRL just didn't bother, but they had to introduce 2 of the 18 Petitions to keep that Class Distinction going as long as possible. The ARRL failed to get their way. Restructuring remained. By 2005 the FCC released docket 05-235, the "end of the world" NPRM (for olde-tymer hotshot CW ops) that would eliminate ALL code testing for ANY USA amateur radio license test. I thought it Was About Time the FCC listened to the PUBLIC instead of some minority special-interest group headquartered in a suburb of Hartford. The FCC of 2006 that released R&O 06-178 on December 19, 2006, was a modern, up-to-date Commission, thinking ahead, and NOT listening solely to or being influenced by a minority special interest group.
What really happened in the USA amateur world of 2007 was that lots of olde-tymers LOST the LAST of their bragging rights...namely the Extras. Now, there's nothing wrong in my eyes of being good at ANY skill, but such skill isn't the driving force that should affect ALL who might want to enter a hobby radio activity via federal licensing. ALL that olde-tymers could brag about now is their TENURE as a licensed amateur...and, of course, fish stories about being hotshot CW operators or high-scoring 'radiosport' winners and the like. Tenure in a hobby is mostly the good fortune of having as few as possible physical defects, not to mention being gifted with an aptitude for abstract things like monotonic on-off patterns...and the ability to pass those 'awsome, rocket-science-level, very hard' TESTS. The way some olde-tymers go about describing Their TESTS is that it was the equivalent of a Nobel Prize. Ptui. It never was that hard.
I can sympathize with the deflation of egos among the braggarts. I pity them, not for their loss of alleged 'rights,' but on their egocentrisity in thinking that their hobby skills were of some National Use...or that the entire radio world had remained as static as special interest groups tried to publicize it for so long.
Me, I'm not having Delusions of Grandeur, I am a realist, a Pro in electronics and communications for over half a century. Yeah, I'm also chronologically old but there are NO signs of dementia in my brain yet. I don't need 'bragging rights.' I am content with what I've done. I am definitely NOT content to be some kind of emotional sustenance to feed the gaping mental maws of I-am-better/holier-than-you chronological contemporaries in a hobby activity. :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N9DG on March 9, 2009
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KL7AJ: “I would say that most of the perceived problems with newcomers is not the fault of the newcomers at all, but rather the way we've been recently RECRUITING them. Most of the methods I've seen seem so UNNATURAL for lack of a better word. This happens with any "product" you try to "sell." The organic magnetism that brought most of us into the hobby just isn't there for most new hams. Rather than "growing into" the hobby, they are "dropped" into it, without any context."
Very well put. I have noticed over the years that things that are heavily “sold” tend to attract only those who continuously need to be “sold” something. When the “selling” stops, they lose interest and move on. And I think that is what usually happens after the 'weekend license cram courses' are completed and the license test(s) are passed. Those new or upgraded licensees soon find themselves having to take some personal initiative to get on and be active somehow, or to pursue any one of the myriad of different things that there is to do in amateur radio. But yet many of them can't find a single thing to do, they probably have never really thought about it before starting. Some others are immediately drawn into the world of “EMCOMM”. That is also a highly “sold” endeavor, so some will indeed stick with that, - for awhile.
In both cases I have observed a very high attrition rate of new licensees. Contrast that with those who more or less “stumbled” into amateur radio and became curious about it, and then one area of curiosity leads to another and so on. Those folks are more typical of those who stick with it for decades, they do it simply for the love of it.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NY7Q on March 9, 2009
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Well Len, I am not mad at anyone. I think I am beginning to like you, respect you.
in person, we might even become good friends.
I did get you riled up tho'
It's a game with me. Sorry Len
So, I'll leave with my head down, tail between my legs, and you having the very last intelligent words of wisdom, with anger.
I apologize for making you so angry.
I truly am sorry.
Thats all I can say on the matter.
NY7Q
DENVER, COLORADO
LAND OF GODS
AND HOTSHOT CW OPS
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N7YA on March 9, 2009
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You didnt rile Len up, he actually gave you a short reply, LOL. I stay out of Lens hair because he makes some valid points, he just makes a lot of them and i cant keep up with the thread as intensely. Ive seen all sorts of good points posted here, its just a very aggressive place for hobbyists to congregate.
I frequent numerous sites, and this one is the most hostile of them all...just think, if ham radio is THIS unnerving, what would this group of folks turn into if we had a REAL emergency or issue!!
On the bright side, i dont believe its personal since every single thread on eHam ends up the same, no matter how well intentioned the original poster was, it always ends up in a fight. I think eHam is a sub-hobby for a certain type of ham who likes their communications a little more edgy, the type of edgy that is ok online, but not on the air...thats why i dont have a problem with all this and have long since stopped posting "hey, come on guys, were all hams here, cant we stop this and get along??" replies...they always fall on deaf ears.
I realize now, THIS is who we are, right here.
73...Adam, N7YA
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K9MHZ on March 9, 2009
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>>>>by N9DG on March 9, 2009
KL7AJ: “I would say that most of the perceived problems with newcomers is not the fault of the newcomers at all, but rather the way we've been recently RECRUITING them. Most of the methods I've seen seem so UNNATURAL for lack of a better word. This happens with any "product" you try to "sell." The organic magnetism that brought most of us into the hobby just isn't there for most new hams. Rather than "growing into" the hobby, they are "dropped" into it, without any context."
Very well put. I have noticed over the years that things that are heavily “sold” tend to attract only those who continuously need to be “sold” something. When the “selling” stops, they lose interest and move on......<<<<
I think you guys have both nailed it. It makes you think how it's a micro example of how we live today. OK, here comes the stretch (get ready to roll your eyes)....if the economies of the planet continue to tank, and personal wealth and consumption plummet, will we all be forced to stop the ADHD way of living that we've morphed into, and be forced to rediscover what's of real value? One can only hope.
Best,
Brad
K9MHZ
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC2SDG on March 9, 2009
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Terry,
I am a newer ham and I have to say that I have not had any you-are-not-welcome-here experiences with ham radio.
Sicne becoming a ham, I have developed a keen interest in digital modes - psk31, RTTY, Olivia, ... A good number of the hams I make contact with are just like me - new to digital or a particular mode, learning, and having a great time - regardless of age. I have had many wonderful chats via digital modes with amateurs that have been haming since the 1930's. These conversations have all been very positive, interesting, encouraging, and inspiring.
If you are looking for a great bunch of hams both old and young, give the digital modes on any of the bands a try. I am confident you will find it an engaging experience.
73
KC2SDG
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W4HIJ on March 9, 2009
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Unfortunately there is always going to be a group of hams, old timers, old farts, whatever you want to call them who think that because you didn't pass the same exams they did that you don't deserve your ticket or that you are somehow lesser of an operator than they are. It's an old argument that has been around at least since the code requirement was lowered to 5 WPM for all classes. "They didn't pass the same test I did so I'm not going to talk to them, I'll just take my toys and go home!" Sounds kind of like a five year old brat doesn't it? Well it is a brat, it's just an older narrow minded brat is all. Ignore em and enjoy the hobby.
Last I knew, the ability to copy morse code didn't automatically make you a great operator or a great person for that matter. One listen to the bands and some of these so called "old timers" is proof of that.
Find yourself a copy of the amateur's code and conduct yourself according to that. You'll be fine and you'll be accepted and respected by most. As for the rest, let em wallow in that poisonous negativity and bitterness. I think they really enjoy it or they would have gotten on with the hobby and continued enjoying it rather than grousing about "how it used to be".
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB5YLG on March 9, 2009
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It's kind of fraternal. Get past the hazing and the grouchy old farts and all will be well.
Regards, and welcome to a terrific hobby.
We have to thin out the johnnie-come-lately types that tend to use us up (and all our generous, free help) and then vanish to pursue basket-weaving or whatever.
Commit to a lifelong friendship, folks will be able to tell, and you'll one day be helping new hams too, while trying to filter out the riff-raff goofballs.
Regards!
David
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AD7WN on March 9, 2009
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Welcome to ham radio, Terry.
If I'm reading your article correctly, it is a small fraction of the ham population that is shunning you. If that is true, I see no reason to stress out over it. I'm a little shy of a century in the hobby (54 years), but when I started out in 1955 I was also shunned by a small fraction of the OTs.
The reason for having been shunned at that time seems laughable today. I had a lowly three-letter call (W7BLH) while most of the OTs had more elegant two-letter calls. Other than the length of the callsign, there was no significant difference. I came into ham radio from a military background in CW. The OTs generally had good fists. I had a good fist. They worked CW traffic nets. I worked CW traffic nets. The only real difference was the length of the callsign.
I pretty much ignored those OTs who would have nothing to do with me. So, I enjoyed ragchews with those OTs (actually this included most of the OTs I encountered) who did not have this superiority complex. There was certainly no situation that would have prompted me to give up the hobby.
I expect there has always been this situation where a newbie is shunned by SOME of the OTs. On the phone bands, it was once a situation where the KW AM OTs were at war with the recently licensed ops using that new-fangled SSB emission. They would make it a practice for one of their own to park his carrier in the middle of the sidebander's passband and attempt to QRM him off the air. Intelligent use of the airwaves? Not really, but that was once the way it was done.
As you have pointed out, today it is a fraction of that bunch of OTs who went through the pain of learning the code who now shun the codeless new ops. Who knows what the reason will be twenty years from now? Maybe it'll be those who use old "thrashing machine" mechanical RTTY gear vs these newbies who use these new-fangled computers.
My advice is to not take it so seriously when an OF will have nothing to do with you. Keep your own operating practices clean and don't try to introduce CB procedures. Yelling "break-break" on a repeater frequency, when there is no emergency, would make my blood boil. And I like to think I'm more tolerant than most:-) Keep your own operating practices clean and you'll have lots of fine QSOs with other hams, young and old alike.
I hope you enjoy many decades of ham radio fun.
73 de John/AD7WN
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NI0C on March 9, 2009
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W4HIJ wrote:
"Last I knew, the ability to copy morse code didn't automatically make you a great operator or a great person for that matter. "
This is true; however it does make one a CW operator.
The common knowledge of morse used to be a common thread that did indeed help ensure that we were "all in this together."
I'm not very sympathetic with the vague complaints described by the author.
Chuck NI0C
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KI4WFM on March 9, 2009
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Well. I have have been licensed for a little more than two years now. Tech for 3 months and then general. On SSB I found a few OTs that were a bit problematic but I just moved on. I listened a lot to get the hang of how things are done, especially on the local VHF repeaters.
The real key was I joined a good local club and became active. Don't be afraid to jump in. My first year I ran Field Day. I had no technical expertise but I am an operations manager by trade so organizing the effort was not a problem. I let the OTs handle the technical stuff (antenna's etc). Interestingly enough, when they saw my commitment, they seemed more willing to bring me into the fold. Now I have several teaching me more than I ever would have guessed I would learn and they are an incredible resource.
There will always be a few that you simply need to ignore but most, once they see the commitment, will jump right up and bring you along. Should it be that way, I don't know, but I have watched many new HAMs follow me into the local club and the ones willing to commit seem to hit it off OK with those OTs.
The hobby, like anything else, is what YOU make it. Enjoy.
73.
Allen. KI4WFM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W4HIJ on March 9, 2009
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NI0C wrote:
This is true; however it does make one a CW operator.
Yes it does, but the fact that you are a CW op doesn't make you any better or any smarter than anyone else. I think most folks object to the "superiority complex" that these guys in question have.
Luckily, I've found that these type of hams are definitely in the minority. Most CW ops I've ever run into are great people who are delighted to help new hams and encourage them to take up the code whether they are the so called no coders or not. This is the way it should be. CW will be a lost art otherwise.
My late father, who was the original W4HIJ, was the best CW op I ever saw but he never forced his love of the code on me. He allowed me to do what I wanted and when I chose not to focus on the code after learning it well enough to get my ticket and pretty much pursue SSB operation only, I had his blessing. He just wanted me to enjoy the hobby. That's all any of us should want for any new ham.
I am sympathetic to the original poster and his concerns because I've seen exactly what he's talking about. Of course I seen it in other hobbies I'm involved in too. A group of grizzled old timers who seem to enjoy nothing better than sitting around grousing about the way things used to be.
Funny how the one thing these hobbies have in common with amateur radio is a constant lament about the lack of new young blood coming in.
Coincidence? Doubt it....
73,
Michael
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RE: One big put on.
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by K6LHA on March 9, 2009
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NI0C vents on 9 Mar 09:
"Go ahead, write your thousand word response."
Okay, send me a contract for a dime a word, 50% advance, the rest on publication. Must be a VALID check on a USA bank, not a phony Paypall thing.
36.5, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 9, 2009
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N7YA observed rightly on 9 Mar 09
"You didnt rile Len up, he actually gave you a short reply, LOL. I stay out of Lens hair because he makes some valid points, he just makes a lot of them and i cant keep up with the thread as intensely."
Thank you...maybe. :-)
One of my part-time jobs (actually made a few bucks in that) is professional writing. I can say that I've never met any editor purchasing my work having any face-to-face talk about it before purchase. The subject and the words sold it. I can write in lots of different styles and none of them really reflect what my deeper personal feelings are. :-)
When I get INTO a subject, I've always been intense about it. I doubt that is any personal detriment. That is one reason I've dropped ARRL membership, knowing their history and work from OTHER sources, not their own somewhat-biased (I'm being kind there) 'history.' :-)
I find it surprising that so few licensed readio amateurs have NOT gone into the history and background of 'radio' OTHER than amateur radio. That OTHER radio is rich and varied and did most of the intial pioneering of HF, the OTHER radio pretty well dominating advances after the 1920s. That offends the religiously-ardent amateurs who know very little else. Those acolytes (more like ick-olytes) get furious when their beloved icons are smutzed, their precious psalms stained. <shrug>
..................
N7YA: "Ive seen all sorts of good points posted here, its just a very aggressive place for hobbyists to congregate."
I find it refreshing that ANYONE dares to challenge the norm that olde-tyme radio fahrts insist be there. :-) One can't be a sissy-boy to push the performance envelope.
...................
N7YA: "I frequent numerous sites, and this one is the most hostile of them all...just think, if ham radio is THIS unnerving, what would this group of folks turn into if we had a REAL emergency or issue!!"
From what I've seen, the REAL Emergency workers will do their job, as they've trained for, practiced for, learned to handle. I've seen that in the immediate aftermath of the Northridge earthquake in northern Los Angeles in January 1994. Didn't see a single amateur radio setup serving the public until two days after...FEMA, for all their recent faults, had their video screen Health and Welfare message relays operating the day after. H&W messages are nice, but nothing beats the recognizeable handwriting of a relative or friend directly. Ham radio H&W message forwarding on 'official' League forms by a stranger may impress the traffic handlers but it doesn't have the same impact as a familiar known message.
I took my (only, ever) amateur radio test in what is called 'Old Firehouse 77' in the San Fernando Valley area of Los Angeles. There's been a new Firehouse less than a quarter mile away. The Old one could possibly still handle a 24/7 fire crew, all the comforts still there and operational. But, the Old firehouse has a one-door engine space, ain't big enough for the four-decade-long buildup around here. Since the Old firehouse was still quake-proof, the LAFD kept it and some others, making them stations in the LAFD Auxilliary Communications system to handle their own H&W messages and other things in case of a real emergency. It isn't some PR-structure for impressing the civilians, it is already equipped, trained, staffed, and ready to roll with an emergency comm vehicle (converted old school bus).
....................
N7YA: "...dont have a problem with all this and have long since stopped posting "hey, come on guys, were all hams here, cant we stop this and get along??" replies...they always fall on deaf ears."
"Why can't we all just get along?" is a direct quote of Rodney King, the spark of one of the Watts riots here in Los Angeles.
While that was popularized, most folks don't know that King was already an alky and juiced by something else when LAPD tried to subdue him after he got belligerant at a police stop. Granted the LAPD wasn't following proceedure and were in the wrong with the beating. That doesn't condone the riots or deaths that followed those riots. Nor did it 'honor' the phrase utterer who was twice arrested for domestic violence plus DUI (at least once) after those riots. NOT a good role-model for anything.
73, Len AF6AY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KE4ZHN on March 9, 2009
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I talk with many new and old hams alike. It always seems to depend on the actions and operating practice of the newbie if they are accepted or not. Some get welcomed with open arms because they try to operate using the right procedures and customs of the hobby, while others get shunned because they act like their on channel 19. Having never worked Terry on the air I cannot say one way or the other.
The bottom line is, if you get on the air with a new call sign and start off by irritating the old timers with senseless radio checks, CB slang and generally poor operating practice you will never be accepted.
This goes for newbies and old timers alike. I dont know many hams who enjoy working a buffoon on the air. Ive worked literally thousands of contacts over the years and you will always have good and bad. Far and away my experiences on the air have been good but this is ham radio, not utopia. Terry, I suggest you grow a thicker hide and move on past the guys giving you grief. Its not worth dwelling on it or ruining your interest in the hobby over what a few disgruntled OF's said.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC2OYZ on March 9, 2009
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Terry, how do know you are being snubbed - perhaps you're just reading into things too much.
If you're a new operator, it's no different than going to a new country for the first time - nobody's really paying that much attention to you, but you feel out of place - it takes a while to get used to the local customs and start to feel at home.
73
Mikey
K2BKT
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0NBE on March 10, 2009
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Ah ha... your not the only one receving the same wrath of the old timers.... Just lately, 2 years after I'm starting to re-build my shack after a devistating fire and lost EVERYTHING except the clothes on my back,and I decided to talk to a GENTLEMAN friend that was a ham
(I could tell by the feild day t-shirts he wore) we met at work and I told him my story, well he told me since code is NOT required anymore, and that I should up-grade (I originally got tired of local people litterly abusing me to up-grade to the point I regretted grabbing the mike to talk to friends on 2 meters) So, I started studying for general and in Feb. of this year took the general test and passed! HOO-RAY for me! When I started studying for the test I decided to start shoping for an entry level rig and located a older (but far from worn out!) Kenwood in fact complete station, tuner, power supply and desk mike for less than just rig only price on E-Bay... anyway,
Since now money is tight and I'm currently on lay off, I've got a rig that I'M DAMN PROUD OF!!! and been working stations in England, Ireland... And just this past weekend FRANCE & HAWAII not to shabby for a 25 year old rig...BUT wait thats not the end of it....
Now the O.M's are PISSY because I cant talk to the nearest town 12 miles away on TEN meters. SO FRIGGIN what,
I talked to Hawaii & France on an old beat up kenwood,
I think there jelous because I didnt pay $1,000.00 on my rig and am having just as much fun if not more fun than they are. I think I got a heck of a good deal, anyway thats why there all pissy at me. In conclusion YES WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!! Now heres maybe an observation by me "ya ever figgure out why they dropped the code - maybe Its cause of people treating others badly and running them off the air" - Just my observation. Here what I say if your having fun, operating within the rules THEN MORE POWER TO YOU! you have earned your license and deserve to operate too!
Keep your chin up and remember what on of my dearest freinds told me (an elmer) "I'de rather give ulcers than get them"
DONT GIVE UP!!!
Van J. Kaiser - KB0NBE
SPECIAL THANKS TO:
Steve - N0ORU
Gene - AA0YQ (SK)
Roger - KD0WY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NI0C on March 10, 2009
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W4HIJ:
I agree with most of what you wrote in your response except the part about a "superiority complex."
Those of us who do "know code" are able to use our radios to communicate in arguably superior ways than those limited to voice and keyboard modes. That's not a "complex," that's a fact. That's why (as you point out) people are drawn to learning the code, even though they weren't required to as part of acquiring a license.
"I am sympathetic to the original poster and his concerns because I've seen exactly what he's talking about."
I am not, simply because the complaint was so vague: "I get no respect," and when pressed for an example, the author cited a rather irrelevant quote from somewhere else on eHam. The author may have a case, but he wasn't convincing.
That's not to say there are no examples of appalling ham behavior. I've probably heard them all in the course of listening hundreds of hours per year on the ham bands over the course of many years.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WA4SCA on March 10, 2009
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There may be a bit of truth to this, when seen from a certain point of view. For instance, someone with a recent Amateur Extra who:
Can't solder a PL-259 without help.
Thinks their antenna is defective when in fact their power supply is not robust enough for their new rig.
Wastes significant amounts of their money and other people's time solving an audio feedback problem because they did not realize that the MON switch was on.
is likely to get the feeling that they may be regarded with less than the highest esteem. People being people, they will blame it on others.
In Ye Goode Oldde Days, whatever you may think of them, people more often than not gained practical experience in the time it took to master both the technical and CW requirements to upgrade. Now, when people can and do go from unlicensed to Amateur Extra in one VE session without ever having been on the air, not so much.
I am more than happy to Elmer people, from the very basics to satellite communications, and in retirement do. However, we are doing good people no favor by rushing them through upgrades. Let me repeat that: Good People. We either need to rethink things a bit, and/or keep in mind the full range of consequences of the changes which some worked so hard to achieve.
Alan
WA4SCA
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W4HIJ on March 10, 2009
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Chuck NI0C
I didn't mean to imply that everyone who knew code had a superiority complex. I was taking about the ones who are the subject of this whole discussion. The ones that have the attitude problem towards new hams in the first place because they didn't pass the code or pass as stringent a test on theory to get a license.
My dad lived to see the advent of the no code tech but not the total no code license structure we have now.
I know that as great a CW op as he was, he never would have held it against a new ham that he didn't have to pass the code to get a license. My late brother got a no code tech license and no one could have been any prouder of him than my father.
BTW, I still do know the code even after years of not using it, I'm just a little rusty is all and as soon as my hectic schedule eases up in the next couple of months, I am going to start brushing up and get back into it. Not because of any pressure from anyone or because I think I need to be good at it to be a "real ham". I just want to do it now.
I actually think the best thing in the world that could have happened to CW is the fact that it was removed as a requirement for getting a license.
People learn things a lot better when they want to do it rather than learning it because they have to. That's just human nature.
73,
Michael
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W0BKR on March 10, 2009
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Newbies?
How would I know that you are a Newbie? Think many are going to "look up" callsigns, etc?
If one acts with a chip on the shoulder or bad mouths pro-code ops, OF's as they like to call them, then yes, you may in fact get some dissing on the air.
If you act like a normal licensed op, I doubt anyone will care how you were licensed. Just act appropriate.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KJ4DLG on March 10, 2009
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I am also newly licensed as of April of last year and upgraded over a period of 6 weeks to Extra. I tell people that now I an Extra, I realize how much I don't know about radio. I agree with the majority opinion that if you listen a lot, talk less and observe the traditions of ham radio and don't act like a CB operator, you will be fine regardless of your license level. All of the older hams in my area have been completely helpful if I had a question or problem I couldn't resolve. Key here is to try to find the answer yourself in reference material, then ask for their expertise if necessary. License level not withstanding, if you ask stupid questions [and I am not saying you did] and act like you don't have sense enough to come in out of a rain storm [ditto] you won't find much of a friendly reception. The only problem I have had was on HF when I inadvertantly interupted a net [Couldn't tell by listening at that point it was a net, sounded like a regular rag chew]. Also in ham radio you will find three types of hams: Those that have much practical knowledge but little book knowledge, and those who have much book knowledge but little practial, and a third group that falls somewhere between the first two. All are needed in our hobby. Stay with it, and in a few years you can be elmering the newbies on the air. And by the way, I am attempting to learn Morse code, not to be accepted, but because I think it is part of the tradition, and because code WILL get through when nothing else can. 73
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KG4YMC on March 10, 2009
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had to laugh, I think you met, old days, not old gays. does to much rf in the shack cause homosexuality .. no not an anti gay post, I am straight and married, but thought you would get a comet on that hi hi kg4ymc i'll stick to qrp to be safe..lol..
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 10, 2009
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K9MHZ wrote:
<With the possible exception of a church, no place on the planet is going to unconditionally welcome you just because you decide to show up.>
KB0TXC (the amused) responds:
CHURCH???!!!
Hell (capital H), for the most part, 'church' is one of the most clique infested, unwelcoming places that humanity has ever invented! My dear holy Goddess Bastet, I have crossed the threshold of too many churches in my lifetime to be convinced otherwise. Sorta reminds me of amateur radio in a way...
You have your "washed in the blood/born in the spirit" OFs that preach sexual morality (or the use and worship of CW above all else). They preach sexual morality now because they are old and are addicted to Viagra, however Bastet only knows, when they were younger, they were doing anything with two legs!
Then you have the "heathen" (like me) that the 'born in the blood' sort of OFs look down their noses at because we do *not* believe the way that they do and do not go to listen to pastor loud mouth and grovel at his feet and give him our money, or God forbid, that we enjoy the company of another without being married (or that we do not use CW using the amateur radio metaphor).
In this nation of 'tolerance', unless you belong to the proper clique, religion, social group, or (in the case of amateur radio) CW usage, there will be those who will berate you until they run out of breath and their spirit goes to the great accountant in the sky.
I know...I belong to many such 'non-traditional' groups...both spiritually and in the amateur radio sense. My religious affiliation is very much in the minority in this nation, and the only places for me to practice my faith with like minded folk is in those larger cities with significant Asian populations. Otherwise I am on my own. Trust me I know. I grew up in a small town in the Midwest U.S... where if you did not belong to the church as a teen, and hang on every word that some hypocrite blathered on Sunday morning after doing someone elses' wife on Saturday night, your life was made hell by those that did. Same with amateur radio...I am a no-coder, and thus, I am a "heathen" in the eyes of many, particularly at the ladies aid society in Newington.
Am I bitter? Not really, that leads to bad Karma. I do truly resent the Newington ladies aid society for bitterly opposing for years the FCC removing the code rite of passage requirement to obtain an amateur radio license. Do I have respect for those who mastered CW? Of course I do, just as I have respect for the true wisdom of Jesus ben Joseph that is rarely if ever preached in 'churches' (basically the churches preach Constantine-anity and Paul-anity). Do I have time or respect for those amateur radio operators that demand my respect because they can copy 40 WPM CW and I am a lowly no-coder? Not no, but HELL no. As far as I am concerned, they can go dry up. Let them give their time and worship to the altar of CW at the Newington ladies aid society. Let them give their unadulterated devotion to the church of CW. I, on the other hand, shall not.
All that said, believe it or not, I have a blast working many many amateur ops that do not act this way. Indeed, I have run into maybe ten or so real nasties in the past fifteen years, where as I have spoken with thousands and thousands both on the air and in person that were truly nice and wonderful people with a spirit that was very inviting and positive.
My philosophy is let the OFs to themselves, feel sorry for them and ignore them...they cannot get with the times because they are so set in their ways and fossilized. Enjoy the fact that you can on the other hand change and go with the flow of progress.
And most importantly, AGE has nothing to do with OF status or being nasty... There are those on the air that are fifteen years younger than I that are real jerks because I refuse to worship their CW proficiency. Then there are those that are twenty years older than I that are well springs of wisdom and are very welcoming to the new or no-code amateur radio operator.
Peace and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KG4YMC on March 10, 2009
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Terry, Hi, from another terry, . I am kinna new to hf also . I have to say most people on 40 have been friendly and knowable. I started out on 6, when had tec liscense. My radio is old ncg tribander that has six, 40 and l5 meters onely. I remember wanting to use the other two bands also , tried to learn code, know characters some , but cannot copy to well. My elmer, was old old operator w4gjm gregg moor, he could never get the code, but electronic wise, frineship and helpful wise , he was a master and good friend. He helped me get set up on six, got an antenna tuner from him . Take the time to listen to older people, they are a weath of information and stories. I prefer rag chewing , but listen, coustesey, admit when make a mistake, most hams I have heard have been really nice and patient . Also, if you hear someone calling cq , try and answer them, it may be there first contact. I still have pete petras card from six meters, my first card was from kd2nl. old operator that gave me the test for tec. on subject of knowage.... I grew up in at photography 76 to 78 dbcc. collage daytona beach, during golden era of slrs... the digital newbys? mabey, but dept of field, can use view camera, also know how to stick shieft.. does that make me better. get on over it , just enjoy , its a hobby 73 kg4ymc have to laught wen an old fart car dealer asked my wife if she could drive a stick , honey what color do you want . she said yes, not onley can I drive a stick , I can write monitoring reports, computer programing ect, needly to say we din't buy a car from that jerk , and he din't last at the dealership either I think .
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KG4YMC on March 10, 2009
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sorry to hear about the harrasment, if that happen in north fla in will kill you county, wakulla co. we would not be fireing " dummy loads " can you say ' read the liscense " gees . it takes all kinds , but enjoy the hobby, with obama, mabey I should rejoin nra and keep our "personal protection devices, anyway , well handled, don't know if I would have the patience, mormons and jw. are just as bad hi hi .. kg4ymc
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RE: We Aren't All In This Together!
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by K6LHA on March 10, 2009
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NY7Q tried spin doctoring on March 9, 2009:
"It's a game with me."
Game? OK...
You raised,
I called,
You lost.
End game.
AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by VE3FMC on March 10, 2009
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by QRZDXR2 on March 8, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
And your point being...
What the old hams are really saying about you is true.. you got your license from the toy box. You really didn't have to go through the "work for it" like they did yet you got the rewards given to you.
But, if your going to whine about it, you might want some cheese to go with it.
OMG, I never had to CRANK START my car either! Does that make me any less of a car driver than the old guys who had to crank a Model T?
Just because I can remote start my car doesn't mean I can't drive as well as the old guy who had to hand crank his.
Of course he did not have to "EARN HIS TICKET THE OLD FASHIONED WAY" because that way is long gone. It will not come back because guys like you, (who will not list their call signs) whine about the fact the code testing has been eliminated.
Get over it, move on.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 10, 2009
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W4HIJ writes: "Unfortunately there is always going to be a group of hams, old timers, old farts, whatever you want to call them who think that because you didn't pass the same exams they did that you don't deserve your ticket or that you are somehow lesser of an operator than they are."
Yup. And there's a group of newcomers who think that because you've been a ham a long time you don't know anything about modern stuff.
W4HIJ: "It's an old argument that has been around at least since the code requirement was lowered to 5 WPM for all classes."
Both attitudes are much, much older than that. There are folks still griping about the "incentive licensing" changes of 40+ years ago. Some of them weren't even hams until decades after those changes took place, yet they gripe about them.
W4HIJ: "Ignore em and enjoy"
AGREED!
W4HIJ: "Last I knew, the ability to copy morse code didn't automatically make you a great operator or a great person for that matter."
Not automatically, but it helps. And there's a lot more to being a CW operator than being able to copy code. Learning Morse Code made me a better operator and a better person.
IMHO, having good CW operating skills helps make someone a great operator and a great person in many ways. But that doesn't mean it's the only way, or that all hams must do it.
Having Morse Code skills can make amateur radio a lot more fun, and greatly expands what you can do in amateur radio.
W4HIJ: "One listen to the bands and some of these so called "old timers" is proof of that."
One listen to the PHONE bands, that is. Look through the FCC enforcement letters, and you'll see very very few involving amateurs using CW for communication, even though the mode is very popular on the HF amateur bands. Most of the enforcement actions for bad operating behavior are for things done with VOICE modes. The difference is much greater than the relative popularity of the modes.
And the violations aren't all from old-timers, either.
No test, particularly a one-time test, is a perfect filter-outer of 'bad apples'. Heck, every violator also passed at least one, and probably several, written exams that contained all sorts of stuff about the rules and regs. Yet some folks intentionally behave badly on the air.
Heck, look at how some folks behave here on eham.
W4HIJ: "Find yourself a copy of the amateur's code and conduct yourself according to that. You'll be fine and you'll be accepted and respected by most."
Excellent advice!
W4HIJ: "As for the rest, let em wallow in that poisonous negativity and bitterness."
Yup.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W4HIJ on March 10, 2009
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QRZDXR2 wrote:
And your point being...
What the old hams are really saying about you is true.. you got your license from the toy box. You really didn't have to go through the "work for it" like they did yet you got the rewards given to you.
But, if your going to whine about it, you might want some cheese to go with it.
What did you expect... you go take a test that most 3-5 year old can memorize now.. and you come into the hobby whining that your not appreciated or respected. Well neither are the old guys who are leaving the hobby to take up something else that is not so cluttered with Commucation Banders and week mindes polluters.
This all being said.. which I am sure you have heard it already, what do you expect ham radio to be? What are you going to make it. What are you going to do for the guy who wants you to help him in toyland?
You write like you want others to rally around your whining and finger pointing to the old ham radio guys.. when in fact it is you that is not up to par nor are contrubuting to the whole.
If you wanted glory, reconigition and phrase for passing a memory test.. go figure... harry did you find that lose nut? You came to the wrong hobby. You will find that to gain respect in any hobby you first have to earn it. Ya the old fashion way works but, if your a whining glory seeker that wants to wear the Orange or yellow .. I'm here to save the world shirt..ahttt wrong. I suggest that if this is what your looking for you need to take up a different hobby because your going to be very disapointed and let down when you relize... that it ain't so....
This the new Commucations Band hobby. Say hello, do a contest, and check into a net is about all your going to get from this hobby. (oh ya some groups run around with orange shirt on getting their egos boosted thinking that they are supermen. But the odds are 1 out of 1000 that you would even last a week in disaster condtions and want to go back home to mom.
You want to learn electronics and commucations.. go to school because your waisting your time here. No one is going to take you by the hand and put you on a throne and potty train you..
Whine away with your .. say it ain't so... but in the end we have seen your kind come and go.
So grow up and get over it.
You make ham radio what you want it to be...
if its not... what you thought it should be .. you know the drill.
Welcome to ham radio...quit whining
And here we have the perfect example of a bitter old diseased narrow minded fool!
Actually I don't know how old this gent( and I use the term loosely) is but he's exactly the type we are talking about here. How nice of him to come here so we would have an example of just the attitude the original poster was talking about.
Don't ya'll get it? Everything that he says is designed to try and incite and provoke and get under your skin. He enjoys it when you pay attention to him and you let him know something he said bothers you.
I'm sure he's enjoying being singled out right now even though it's for ridicule.
The best thing we can do is IGNORE these idiots.
Their bitterness and negativity will eventually be the death of them.
73,
Michael
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KG6WLV on March 10, 2009
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Someone up above made the intelligent comment, "listen, listen, listen!" I agree. Learn the on-air practices of the mode you want to use. It's easy to key-down and create chaos, but when you hear a good op who knows what they are doing, you are learning.
Here's another key to being a better operator, READ, READ, READ!
I find I learn more about my rig -- new ones are very complicated, and it important to know what you're doing with them, before you get on the air -- the more I read about it. I also read about new techiques, new rigs, and anything else I don't know about that I need to know. Ham radio is such a complex field, there's always something new to learn. That's what makes it so interesting. That has nothing to do with how long I've had my ticket; it's just part of what I'm supposed to do to be a good ham, and it's fun to satisfy my own curiosity. That's why I got into this in the first place.
Here's another piece of advice: Stand up and do your part. I help to keep 2-meter sideband activity going here in Northern California. I had been logging in to the nets for months, but one of our local ops had conflicts with his job obligations and I took over his weekly net. I was nervous about it at first, but I take pride in my work with the net. It gave me the incentive to upgrade my station, and I've met GREAT folks who share my interest.
Ham radio is everything I hoped it would be. But I think everyone, no matter what their license class or experience, needs to give back to all the ops who've come before and made it great. I've made friends, learned things and I also have the potential to do public service. For me, that's unbeatable.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N5ACK on March 10, 2009
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I upgraded to General back in August 2007 after being a Tech for 9 years. I have never heard a single negative comment on the air, I have only seen negative posts about "no-coders" here and other forums. I know there will always be OF's that don't like the "no-coders", but I just ignore the posts. Coders can communicate via morse code, that's a great talent, congrats, however is that such an important talent that if someone does not have it, you put them down?
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W4MLO on March 10, 2009
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Hi all,
I was licensed in 1991(I think)as a no-code tech(I also passed the General theory test that same day. I was welcomed and mentored by some of the greatest people I have ever known. At that time a lot of hams were scared to death that Amateur Radio was dying and were willing to to do whatever it took to get more people into the hobby to protect the bands. Any how, for whatever reason I did not follow through with learning "THE CODE". I became bored with my megar privileges and became inactive. The day after the code requirement was dropped I passed my General and was welcomed back by the same great bunch of people. My point is, it is not what some (a very few)of the jackarses say or how they act on the air that matters...don't worry about them, worry about becoming a good operator and more importantly...ENJOY THE HOBBY!!! Get involved in a local club and make REAL FRIENDS!!! Ignore the few that are living in the past and join those who are flexible and look forward to the future and become part of it.
By the way, for what it is worth, most of the rest of the world (including the US government) did away with "THE CODE" years ago)
Just my 1/2 cent,
73 Milo W4MLO
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N7YA on March 10, 2009
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Code requirement is gone...bands still have tons of CW ops on them. SSB didnt kill AM, lots of hams still use that mode.
There are more hams licensed now than ever before...ham radio isnt dead, and hams have never stopped acting like it is. I think this dead horse is a pile of pulp by now.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N7YA on March 10, 2009
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My advice for the folks who come online and scream in all caps about how we should all get along, how we should all be friends and this hobby should be enjoyed...i agree, and you should continue to do these things, ham radio is fine and so is the world of the internet forum ham...its all just fine. This forum business is exactly how the internet ham wants it to be, strong opinions posted here will have absolutely NO affect on the real world of ham radio....this is just where old hams go to graze on mud and step in eachothers waste.
Some egos get bruised, and it appears too rough for some peoples tender bottoms...but in the big picture, everything is ok.
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We Aren't All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 10, 2009
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N7YA tried some boosting on 10 Mar 09:
"There are more hams licensed now than ever before..."
Well, not quite. From www.hamdata.com the peak of all issued USA amateur licenses was set on 2 July 2003 with 737,938 total. That same www.hamdata.com shows all issued USA amateur radio license for the end of 9 March 2009 as 723,236. That's a difference of 14,702 and very close to ALL active licensees (within their 10-year term) of Indiana (14,660) or Oregon (14,555).
What may be more telling is the www.hamdata.com figures for the last 12 months. There were 28,013 NEW licensees but 27,931 EXPIRED licenses. That's a difference of only 82 in favor of NEW licensees! The delta is so small that it could very well be just random statistical noise. There doesn't appear to be much growth but neither is there much decline. It is static.
For what it is worth, here is the percentage of the three new license classes compared to ALL class license totals, plus the other three still on the books but no longer issued:
Technician------333.227---------46.8 %
General---------145,608---------21.9 %
Extra-----------116,174---------9.56 %
Others----------103,544---------14.5 %
Note: By subtracting the so-called 'active' licensees per class as given by the ARRL from ALL per class as given by Hamdata, there is a reasonably good assumption that the delta represents those IN their grace period or 2-year extension beyond the normal 10-year term. In that case, the in-grace percentages (relative to ALL per class) are:
Technician------12,467----------3.74%
General---------10,600----------6.79%
Extra------------3,193----------2.67%
A conclusion, which comes up regularly, is that Technician class is overwhelmingly the largest class in USA amateur radio and shows NO sign of soon petering-out as many warned a few years ago. As the first new-issue license class that had NO code test associated with it, it has continued to grow and grow and grow since 1991 until Technician is over twice as large as General...and General is over twice as large as Extra. But, since Extra class is the most active poster on this forum and most of them try to downplay (if not denigrate) the lesser classes, there is also the conclusion that a distinct minority of the USA 'amateur community' is Trying to Rule. Most of those "ten percenters" (the Extra) express ideas that They should run things based on their (10 percent) ideas and status. Their dead-horse carcass just hasn't been moved out yet. It is beginning to smell like a health hazard to the 'amateur community' in my opinion.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: We Aren't All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 11, 2009
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AF6AY writes: "Technician class is overwhelmingly the largest class in USA amateur radio and shows NO sign of soon petering-out as many warned a few years ago."
The number of Technicians is growing in part because, since April 15, 2000, FCC has renewed all Technician Pluses as Technicians. There were over 128,000 Tech Pluses in April 2000, now there are less than 4000, and in about 13 months there will be no more Tech Pluses at all. In addition, any Novice who upgrades by passing the Tech written gets a Technician.
If you add up the number of Technicians and Technician Pluses back in April 2000 and compare it with the same sum today, the result is a *decline* in both the total and the percentage.
AF6AY: "As the first new-issue license class that had NO code test associated with it, it has continued to grow and grow and grow since 1991 until Technician is over twice as large as General...and General is over twice as large as Extra."
However, some Technicians are code-tested and some aren't, same as General and Extra. Which doesn't matter any more because each class conveys the stated privileges regardless of what tests were passed to earn it.
General and Extra have continued to grow and grow as well.
AF6AY: "But, since Extra class is the most active poster on this forum and most of them try to downplay (if not denigrate) the lesser classes, there is also the conclusion that a distinct minority of the USA 'amateur community' is Trying to Rule. Most of those "ten percenters" (the Extra) express ideas that They should run things based on their (10 percent) ideas and status."
Well, Len, you're an Extra, and what you describe is pretty much the way you've behaved since long before you got your amateur radio license 2 years ago.
btw, Extras comprise over 17% of the total number of US hams, not 10%.
---
Since the last remnant of code testing was removed from Part 97 about 2 years ago, we've seen a small amount of growth in the total number of US amateurs (as measured by unexpired licenses held by individuals). Which proves that code testing wasn't really a "barrier limiting growth" at all.
Now we can get to work on the real problems.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: One big put on.
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by N2EY on March 11, 2009
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AF6AY wrote:
NI0C vents on 9 Mar 09:
"Go ahead, write your thousand word response."
Okay, send me a contract for a dime a word, 50% advance, the rest on publication. Must be a VALID check on a USA bank, not a phony Paypall thing.
36.5, Len AF6AY
----
Len, you responded in the wrong thread.
NI0C is over in "Let's Take Ownership Of The Bands"
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W8QF on March 11, 2009
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I have been a ham for nearly 42 years and I can tell you right now, those guys have been around at least that long. I earned my general at 11 so imagine the whooping I received on a regular basis. I mostly stuck to CW until collage. Hang in there, one day it will improve.
Dave, W8QF
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RE: One big put on.
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by W5ESE on March 11, 2009
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N2EY said:
> Since the last remnant of code testing was removed
> from Part 97 about 2 years ago, we've seen a small
> amount of growth in the total number of US amateurs
> (as measured by unexpired licenses held by
> individuals). Which proves that code testing wasn't
> really a "barrier limiting growth" at all.
> Now we can get to work on the real problems.
Exactly. Well stated.
The principal issues are visibility and the erosion
of interest into the avocations that in earlier
times led people into the hobby, such as Shortwave
Listening and CB radio.
I was both an SWL and had a CB.
73
Scott
W5ESE
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NV2A on March 11, 2009
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Looks like this has been talked out but let me add this so that the OP might find some relief.
Number one, don't volunteer that you just joined the hobby last week, are "only" a General Class or only on 2 meters. There are a lot of folks who feel like their talking to children. Look at it this way, you got 20 battle hardened grunts in an outfit and a new recruit shows up with spiffy uniform and shoes that ain't broken in yet. Are you going to feel you have "as much in common" with him then you do your fellow warriors? It's not much different.
I'm not good at talking with children, I wish I was but fact is I am not. So if a kid comes back to my CQ it will likely be very short QSO as I know nothing about P Diddy except that he exist, I'm not on "MyFace.com". It's just human nature.
When you get into a QSO talk about what you do for a living, the economy, your recent projects or activity on the bands. Leave out the neophyte stuff and chances are you'll do better. Here's another way to put it.
Lets say there is a round table going with a bunch of kids on 40 meters and I jump into the crowd and announce I'm 62 yrs old, how comfortable do you think they would make me feel?
Now I know there is some clown out there who is going to try to take my feelings to mean something else. He'll will read everything I've written to imply that I said rudeness is okay. I never said that, only that "birds of a feather stick together" in very general terms. I have not heard much rudness on the bands where joining in on a QSO is concened except on 80 meters when half the "Amateurs" are liquored up. Being a new or old ham won't matter much there.
It's gets better as you gain more experience. Good luck
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How Many Hams?
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by N2EY on March 11, 2009
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These are the number of current, unexpired FCC-issued amateur radio licenses held by individuals on the stated dates, and the percentage of the total number that class contains. Percentages may not add up to exactly 100.0% due to rounding.
These totals do not include licenses that have expired but are in the grace period, nor do they include club, military and other station-only licenses.
Effective April 15, 2000, FCC no longer issued new Novice, Technician Plus and Advanced class licenses, so the numbers of those license classes have declined steadily since then.
Also since April 15, 2000, FCC has renewed all existing Technician Plus licenses as Technician. So it is informative to consider the totals of the two classes, since the Technician class includes a significant number of Technician Plus licenses renewed as Technician.
On February 23, 2007, the last Morse Code test element, the 5 wpm receiving test, was eliminated as a requirement.
License numbers as of:
May 14, 2000 February 22, 2007 March 09, 2009:
Novice: 49,329(7.3%) 22,896(3.5%) 17,951(2.7%)
Tech: 205,394(30.4%) 293,508(44.8%) 320,716(48.9%)
TechPlus:128,860(19.1%) 30,818(4.7%) 3,514(0.5%)
General: 112,677(16.7%) 130,138(19.9%) 145,582(22.2%)
Advanced: 99,782(14.8%) 69,050(10.5%) 61,663(9.4%)
Extra: 78,750(11.7%) 108,270(16.5%) 116,159(17.7%)
Total Tech/TechPlus:
334,254(49.5%) 324,326(49.5%) 324,230(49.4%)
Total all classes:
674,792 654,680 655,585
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Yes, we are.
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by NO6L on March 11, 2009
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This is going to be short and to the point. I don't want you to worry about these people that have nothing better to do than to cut others down so they feel more significant. All it is, is a misdirected expression of "power", kind of like rape, but on a much, much less violent level. That's right, they practice "mind rape". They're the same type that gave grief to those who dared to go beyond spark transmitters, beyond CW and use AM, then, beyond AM to SSB. Now, there's a new generation of these people that are obsessed with the fact that CW was removed from the amateur exams. I call them the "Militant CW Crowd".
I am now going to formally invite you to a place on the HF bands where you will not get treated like this and be properly welcomed to HF. You may hear an occasional mention of the "good old days", but intolerance of peoples exam dates is not tolerated. Not there, and not in QSOs I'm involved it.
3908, Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sunday nights at 2000 PT/PDT. This is the place and time the WARFA Net meets. You can also find out more at www.warfa.org
de NO6L
WARFA Southern Relay, Tuesdays.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W9DNJ on March 11, 2009
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Very good point! But you are right, it is a small crowd of the "old schoolers" some which are guilty of hurting this hobby as well. I like the old timers, they are the ones who originally got me interested in the hobby. Times have changed, it is simple had all of us been required to do 20 words a minute cw, I'm sure most of us would have, but, we didn't have to and please don't slight us for it, it was not our idea.
We love this hobby and most of us hold professionalism very high on the air! I for one am an EMA member and support ham radio very strongly as an emergency communication media. My original call is KC9DKK which I changed for my vanity call W9DNJ. It is my way of tipping my hat to the hey day of amateur radio and the letters are for my wife and I "Diane N John"
Don't get to frustrated, I think you have already figured that out. For some of the pioneers it is hard to watch standards just cast aside by an FCC that every year does less of it's job and refugee cb'ers coming over with bad habits. We must continue the tradition and educate our fellow new hams and the old timers need to support us!
and make no mistake! Some of those cb'ers have turned into great operators and dx'ers!!
73! and here's to a bright future for ham radio.
John L. W9DNJ Old timer in disguise : )
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 11, 2009
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Ok, I pretty much read through the replies. Some implied Terry was whining, trolling or trying to start a flame fest. Nope, I don't think so. He has simply made observations as to his experience thus far, so lay off.
As for this tragedy:
>KB9YKP on March 8, 2009
>I passed the Tech exam in 2000 at the age of 48.
>Bought a used 2-meter rig...
>...built and installed a simple ground plane antenna...
Which is probably more actual station building than the goons who show up later in the story...
>I monitored the local repeaters and noted the
>operating habits and practices of the operators...
>I had a nice QSO with a gentleman and when we
>concluded, I noticed 2 cars in my driveway.
>Apparently my “friends” from the other repeater had
>“found” me as they had promised...
I bet they didn't have to look far, our addresses are on line with our call signs, what morons. Here's the bad part...
>My 2-meter rig sits up on a shelf a few feet from
>where I’m writing this. Neither it, nor I, have ever
>been on the air since...
You know, this is an example of what sets my teeth on edge. Do you now know what I mean when I say, "These people are so obsessed with keeping the status quo they'll sacrifice the very bands they talk on for lack of activity on them, to keep it? Where was the friggen' apology!? They should have been on their knees begging him to stay in Amateur Radio, but no, they had to skulk off like the little cowards they are. A simple FCC lookup would have kept this from ever happening.
Where's the outrage here? Why aren't you people begging KB9YKP to return to the air? If you won't I will; Doug, KB9YKP, please reconsider. Go get upgraded and I want you to make the first stop on HF to be 3908 on Tues, Thurs, and Sun nights at 2000 CT/CDT and forget 2M, for now. You will hear our sister net, the High Fivers, which is the same thing as the Western Amateur Radio Friendship Association on the same day and same frequency at 2000 PT/PDT. You WILL be warmly welcomed back to Amateur Radio, especially after you tell them how you were treated the first time. You tell them NO6L, the WARFA Net Tuesday Southern relay sent you.
Hope to see you on the air some day.
Chuck
NO6L
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RE: How Many Hams? (more readable)
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by N2EY on March 11, 2009
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License numbers as of:
May 14, 2000
February 22, 2007
March 09, 2009:
Novice:
05/14/2000: 49,329(7.3%)
02/22/2007: 22,896(3.5%)
03/09/2009: 17,951(2.7%)
Tech:
05/14/2000: 205,394(30.4%)
02/22/2007: 293,508(44.8%)
03/09/2009: 320,716(48.9%)
TechPlus:
05/14/2000: 128,860(19.1%)
02/22/2007: 30,818(4.7%)
03/09/2009: 3,514(0.5%)
General:
05/14/2000: 112,677(16.7%)
02/22/2007: 130,138(19.9%)
03/09/2009: 145,582(22.2%)
Advanced:
05/14/2000: 99,782(14.8%)
02/22/2007: 69,050(10.5%)
03/09/2009: 61,663(9.4%)
Extra:
05/14/2000: 78,750(11.7%)
02/22/2007: 108,270(16.5%)
03/09/2009: 116,159(17.7%)
Total Tech/TechPlus:
05/14/2000: 334,254(49.5%)
02/22/2007: 324,326(49.5%)
03/09/2009: 324,230(49.4%)
Total all classes:
05/14/2000: 674,792
02/22/2007: 654,680
03/09/2009: 655,585
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: How Many Hams? (more readable)
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by N7YA on March 11, 2009
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So i stand corrected on the total numbers...we have a "whole lot" of hams, is probably how i should have put it.
One thing is for sure, the amount of licensees in the discontinued classes has dropped, but the remaining classes has risen, so im not all that far off.
The point i was trying to make remains...ham radio is fine, weve been through all this before.
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RE: How Many Hams? (more readable)
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by N2EY on March 11, 2009
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N7YA writes: "So i stand corrected on the total numbers...we have a "whole lot" of hams, is probably how i should have put it."
The main point is that our numbers are not shrinking, they're growing. Not by much, but they *are* growing. And while they're not at the 2003 peak, the difference is not great.
N7YA: "One thing is for sure, the amount of licensees in the discontinued classes has dropped, but the remaining classes has risen, so im not all that far off."
The closed-off classes had to drop, of course.
What's interesting is how differently the different closed-off classes' numbers have declined. Tech Plus is almost gone but Advanced is still at 2/3 of its numbers almost a decade ago. Novice is in between.
Meanwhile the active classes - all of them - just keep growing. It will be interesting to see what happens to Technician when there are no more Tech Pluses to be renewed as Tech.
N7YA: "The point i was trying to make remains...ham radio is fine, weve been through all this before."
Yes, we have.
Way back in the late 1960s, when I was a brand-new ham, there were those who moaned and groaned that amateur radio was dying.
They said the new incentive licensing rules would make it so only EEs who were also professional telegraphers could be hams.
They said new technology like SSB transceivers, RTTY and SSTV would keep all but the rich out of ham radio.
They said that other electronic activities such as cb, hi-fi/stereo, electronic music and the space age were siphoning off the supply of new hams.
They said that young people were interested in new and different things, and that amateur radio was far too 'square' and 'establishment' to interest them anymore.
That was back when there were about 250,000 US hams, the country was bogged down in an unpopular foreign war, and the economy was starting to stagnate after years of growth.
And yet here we are, 40+ years later, with more hams, more bands, more modes, more equipment, and more fun things to do in amateur radio than ever before.
Yes, we've been through all this before.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WR9H on March 11, 2009
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Hello Terry and very welcome to amateur radio. You may wel be correct in how other amateurs have treated you but they are certainly in the minority! I would recommend that you spend some time monitoring the bands and look for those QSOs that are open and non-judgemental. A group you might try is the 7272 Ragchewers on 7.272MHz. This is an open ragchewing group that welcomes ALL amateurs.
Remember Terry, no one can make you fell inadequate unless you let them!!
Vy 73 and if you hear me on the air give me a call.
Yours in radio,
Herb
WR9H
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RE: We Aren't All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 11, 2009
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N2EY flaps his featherless albatross wings and squawks on 11 Mar 09:
"The number of Technicians is growing in part because, since April 15, 2000, FCC has renewed all Technician Pluses as Technicians. There were over 128,000 Tech Pluses in April 2000, now there are less than 4000, and in about 13 months there will be no more Tech Pluses at all. In addition, any Novice who upgrades by passing the Tech written gets a Technician."
Poor Jimmy, tries once again to denigrate (his idea of) lower classes as he has done for years on forums. Does he come to conclusions as a result of concussions?
Gollee, Gomer, what was that about R&O 99-612 said about ADVANCED or NOVICE classes? Will they still be around after May 2012? Give us your old-timer secret info right out of the FCC interior at Washington Street in DC and reveal your Oracle-acious "insider" information.
Now I didn't know this thread would be hijacked into Jimmy's Own Ideas. All I can see are facts of numbers and conclude from those. I know no one at the FCC, not even slightly. Yes, I MUST respond, if only to get rid of this putrid dead bird trying to hang around my amateur radio opinion neck.
............
N2EY: "If you add up the number of Technicians and Technician Pluses back in April 2000 and compare it with the same sum today, the result is a *decline* in both the total and the percentage."
Not having such explicit information, all I can point to is a FEW statitstics pages before April 2007. In that April I started collecting ARRL and Hamdata DAILY postings of stats with an automatic save of their on-line page displays into PDF. Acrobat 8 (the full version, not just the reader) did that. Anyone who was looking at those stats pages on their own computer on the Internet would see the same as I saw and saved. Anyone is welcome to a copy of any date stats I have by e-mail attachment to an e-mail reply to any e-mail request...with the exception of a few certain Extra troublemakers. :-)
The only complete listing for earlier statistics is the December 1990 posting (on Compuserve?) from Richard Hoffbeck, N0LOX, to Fritz Anderson, WT9T [no relation to me] which was taken from the FCC database file for November 1988. Whether or not the FCC had that database file available over the Internet is doubtful (the Internet did not go public until 1991) but it was available in ASCII format (simple text fields) on a monthly interval for full details via surface mail. That 1988 breakdown is:
Novice --------- 95,750 (19.94%)
Technician ----- 109,192 (22.74%) *
General -------- 122,959 (25.61%)
Advanced ------- 104,253 (21.71%)
Extra ---------- 47,997 (9.98%) **
* There was no 'Technician Plus' class and the no-code-test Technician class would not exist until after R&O 90-53 of December 1990. The number of issued classes were only 5 in 1988, and would be only 5 in 1990, the year of that posting.
** Note that percentage which would lead to an inadvertent error I made in my posting.
AF6AY: "As the first new-issue license class that had NO code test associated with it, it has continued to grow and grow and grow since 1991 until Technician is over twice as large as General...and General is over twice as large as Extra."
That was an error on my part. The number of Advanced class license holders on 10 Mar 09 was 68,079 total, 61,675 'active,' and thus were 9.56% of the total individual license classes of 712,346 total. Using the blank back of some old printout as a scratch sheet, I mixed the Advanced class percentage for the 10 Mar 09 Extra percentage of 16.8%. On 10 Mar 09 the total Extra licensees numbered 119,236 with 116,175 still in their 10-year license term.
Note also that the percentage of Extras in the 1988 tabulation by Hoffbeck had 9.98% (which I had recently seen and mind-logged under the mental filing of "ten percenters"...something that another had said to me in private conversation prior to 1990).
N2EY: "General and Extra have continued to grow and grow as well."
Based on PDFs of Hamdata pages of 9 May 04 (my earliest) and 11 Mar 09 (my latest) the class breakdown is as follows:
Technician ----- 284,105 (04) --- 333,321 (09)
Technician Plus - 66,299 (04) ---- 12,679 (09)
Novice ---------- 38,313 (04) ---- 22,681 (09)
General -------- 146,233 (04) --- 156,237 (09)
Advanced -------- 84,318 (04) ---- 68,068 (09)
Extra ---------- 107,595 (04) --- 119,381 (09)
NEW Licensees in Last 12 months --- 19,022 (04) --- 28,031 (09)
Expirations in Last 12 months ----- 19,015 (04) --- 28,039 (09)
An explanation on the two "Last 12 months" columns: Hamdata uses its previous stored FCC database information to present totals of the 12 months PRIOR to the date of their statistics pages. The ARRL does not do that. Hamdata also shows three other past-period activity, primarily administrtive, that does not affect license CLASS numbers. Note also there is a difference between what I posted for 10 Mar 09 previously and the 11 Mar 09 figures on 'Last 12 Months' above. New licensees change was +82 in 12 months before and a day later it was -8 relative to EXPIRATIONS. This would be attributed to "statistical noise" due to its variability and that the delta is a tiny percentage change day-to-day.
Any ACTUAL 'Growth' in all USA amateur radio license numbers, either total or 'active'-only, is miniscule. That is the realistic portrayal. The peak of all USA amateur radio licenses happened on 2 July 03, roughly 4 1/2 years ago, and has since been LESS than the peak. All the rationalization in the world (or number juggling) will not change that inescapable fact.
In these numbers presented on e-ham, I have not tried to 'highlight' any particular class, just show the raw data from referenced sources...at least two of them if possible. My choice of Hamdata and ARRL is that Hamdata has the more complete data and ARRL statistics has only individual licensees within their 10-year license term. From that can be drawn a rather factual inference of those licensees who are IN their 2-year grace period. The ARRL stats are no more 'correct' than Hamdata's since BOTH get their license information from the SAME and ONLY source, the FCC. That FCC database contains each licensee's effective license date and any adminstrative change that might affect the license term; the FCC ULS data contains more data but a complete dataset of each licensee is not present in their huge public access license database. If I draw conclusions based on data and their trends, those are mine alone and do not represent any self-defined Holy Judge of All such as ARRL or N2EY.
..............
N2EY: "Since the last remnant of code testing was removed from Part 97 about 2 years ago, we've seen a small amount of growth in the total number of US amateurs (as measured by unexpired licenses held by individuals). Which proves that code testing wasn't really a "barrier limiting growth" at all."
Error, it "PROVES NOTHING" except that N2EY is such a rabid 'CW' afficionado that he will take the least possible item of (his) useable information and present that as some glowing beacon of "truth" to show He is 'right.' Further, it shows that N2EY will bring in relatively obsolete items of information wherein this 'factoid' of his (whatever it is) is repeated AS IF he could 'win' old forum arguments that he had not 'won' previously.
For example, in the language of the FCC Regulations prior to 'restructuring' of mid-2000, the 'medical waivers' existed only for 9 years in regulations and still required 5 WPM code cognition. The 'medical waivers' could only affect the 13 and 20 WPM rates by getting the rather rare 'doctor waiver.' With R&O 99-612 came the limit of ALL license testing at 5 WPM and thus the 'medical waivers' could not apply.
As to license classes allegedly NOT having any code test after 'restructuring' that was ONLY for the ALREADY no-code-test class of Technician. After 'restructuring' happend, FIVE of the SIX classes still had code-testing. Five out of six is NOT a "small remnant" [of code testing] despite the arrogant knowitall attitude of those who had passed 13 and 20 WPM claiming (as usual) that 5 WPM was a 'nothing' rate.
The so-called reply (squawked by my own un-favorite albatross-on-a-string stalker) tried to change the subject from snotty old-timers berating younger folks to (you guessed it) CODE TESTING. While N2EY has hypocritically claimed "it is over with (R&O 06-178)" he nonetheless cannot Let Go of his old adversaries nor really "not talk about" his opinion of code testing being "the worst thing" that could happen...including to USA amateur radio.
Code testing for all adminstrations was removed as a requirement and made an individual administration option near the end of July 2003 during the World Radio Conference of that year, specifically the rewrite of ITU Special Regulations S25. The FCC held off until 2005 to release NPRM docket 05-235 to allow citizen discussion on that docket. That docket discussion terminated in November 2005. A complete and legal Memorandum Report and Order, FCC 06-178 was released on 19 December 2006, 13 months after official end of all comments.
Meanwhile, the CHANGES in USA amateur radio regulations introduced by R&O 99-612 allowed many already-licensed USA radio amateurs to change class much more freely than before, especially those that wanted to 'upgrade' to General or Extra from 'lower' classes. All that palaver about the 'necessity' of high rates of radiotelegraphy insisted upon by the lofty ARRL and even more lofty olde-tymers (to 'earn' their privileges) was NOT effective, not even in the 18 Petitions to the FCC (the ARRL was denied two of theirs). Had the morseaholics and the ardent arrogant olde-tymers gotten their way, they would have continued to stifle, inhibit, and otherwise discourage all other radio hobbyists. Minority rule, repressive minority rule. That continuing even after the Civil Rights Acts made the country as a whole more democratic in principles.
Now how did those necessary-to-EARN regulations come about? Through POLITICS, nothing more. It certainly wasn't for any 'technical reasons' (at least in my lifetime...and I am two years older than the FCC). The number of USA amateur radio license classes went from the original 1 to 3, then up to 5 until 1991 when it got to the Byazntine Class Distinction of SIX.
'CW' use is STILL brought up as some kind of display that ONLY the olde-fahrts (of mental attitude) consider themselves THE BEST and therefore MUST RULE here and everywhere, even on amateur radio bands...and all 'younger' ones (of mental attitude) SHALL be freely and openly ridiculed forever and ever. Its a rather disgusting display of Minority Rule in a basically white male HOBBY activity to me.
................
N2EY: "Now we can get to work on the real problems."
Oh, my, how patrician a statement. One way to "work on those (unstated) problems" is TO START YOUR OWN ARTICLE ON THOSE 'REAL' PROBLEMS. All that is required is to follow e-ham rules (published, visible by following links on e-ham) and DO IT. Unfortunately, YOU will be subject to e-ham.net administration judgement. If you are rejected, you can start your own BLOG and advertise it any number of ways, speak your mind, insult whoever you want that is considered 'inferior' to your lofty precepts of forever retaining a living museum of old ideas and how you are so much better, so superior over the mundane, the ordinary. Go for it!
[no regards] AF6AY
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Wrong Place I Think it NOT.
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by K6LHA on March 11, 2009
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Jimmy whined on 11 Mar 09:
"Len, you responded in the wrong thread. NI0C is over in "Let's Take Ownership Of The Bands""
Does it matter? NI0C posted three times before your 'correction' and NI0C seems to remark/snark on any forum article that e-ham has.
For that matter, my 'reply' to NI0C's snarky comment had NOTHING to do with either article, only NI0C's attitude. <shrug>
If you wish to 'correct' anyone on anything, then pick and choose from SEVERAL posters that DO make REAL errors in the English language. I don't bother them since I can understand (uauslly) what they are talking about. YOU only 'correct' me...most of the time on nothing that NEEDS correction.
[no regards] AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 11, 2009
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W4HIJ replied to an ANONYMOUS olde-fahrt on March 10, 2009:
"QRZDXR2" wrote: "What the old hams are really saying about you is true.. you got your license from the toy box. You really didn't have to go through the "work for it" like they did yet you got the rewards given to you. [blah blah blah blah blah...]"
W4HIJ: "And here we have the perfect example of a bitter old diseased narrow minded fool! Actually I don't know how old this gent( and I use the term loosely) is but he's exactly the type we are talking about here. How nice of him to come here so we would have an example of just the attitude the original poster was talking about. Don't ya'll get it? Everything that he says is designed to try and incite and provoke and get under your skin. He enjoys it when you pay attention to him and you let him know something he said bothers you."
Michael, you NAILED that one. Trust me, as one who's been through 76 years of existance, I've seen most of His Kind...and had to endure along that way. :-)
I'll put it down to this ANONYMOUS coward that she fits right into that large niche of some who NEEDED amateur radio to find some reward/recognition, even notariety for not having done much outside of amateur radio. The motivation seems to be an Ego looking to be "better than others." At least in something.
There's a Latin phrase that has been used in advertising: "Primus inter pares." It translates to "first among equals," an oxymoron (and logical impossibility). Civil Aviation Systems Division of RCA Corporation used it for about a year to push their civil avionics products...until corporate finally paid attention to one of its lesser divisions and made them cease using it. This anony-mousie, probably ego-moronic from lack of oxygen, is trying to go it one better. :-) The irony at my former employer was that this division had EXCELLENT avionics at the time...comm, nav, and radar.
............
W4HIJ: "I'm sure he's enjoying being singled out right now even though it's for ridicule."
Yes, that's true of His Kind. It is an EGO drive and she probably can't help herself.
............
W4HIJ: "The best thing we can do is IGNORE these idiots."
That can be very difficult. They TRY to get everyone's face as much as possible. A very few get OBSESSIVE about it, becoming foul albatrosses hung on one's neck; N2EY is one of mine, getting putrid after ten years of his incessant 'corrections.' Yuck...
............
W4HIJ: "Their bitterness and negativity will eventually be the death of them."
That's true, but before then I rather like the Grande Sport of sticking needles in their ego balloons. That's a perverse kind of fun even if it litters the landscape with useless, deflated ego balloons. :-) [GO ARMY!] :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W0GTR on March 11, 2009
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KE7OSV has raised a real issue here, new hams face challenges to their legitimacy.
Like someone said, why not just talk to the nice people and ignore the real curmudgeons? Well, that's nice for people who have real estate and towers, who can beam all over the place...
HF being as dead as it is, if you live in an apartment you can pick between the birds or the local repeater. (Maybe I'll be more optimistic by summertime!)
When I was first licensed a couple of years ago I discovered I only got one free QSO from each regular on the chatty local repeater, after that no one would come back to me.
Amateur radio is a great hobby, but it's full of myths about newbies. MOST hams don't perpetuate these myths MOST of the time, but they're out there. KE7OSV is right about one thing, General today doesn't have the same shine, and it's because of these half-truths that go around:
MYTH: Elmers make new hams.
SPEAKING FOR MYSELF: No one ever taught me. I first heard about ham radio it through Skywarn, and from there it was all independent reading, self-study. About 25% of what I know is from ARRL books and the rest from the web pages of hams who were willing to write about their work.
True: Hams are willing to share their knowledge, but you have to Google for it. No one holds your hand. If you don't pull up by your own bootstraps, you can't be a new ham.
Elmering? Come on... The clubs I've seen hold their board meetings on WEEKDAY MORNINGS -- how is a working person supposed to get involved in that?
If you want to be a new ham, you have to be a self-starter.
MYTH: These new hams are just memorizing the test questions.
SPEAKING FOR MYSELF: I never have -- not a darn one! Most of what I learned for Tech, I taught myself while trying to figure out what kind of rig to buy (which by the way, the local ham club didn't write back to me when I asked for advice). Most of what I learned for General, I leaned trying to teach myself enough theory to build good stealth antennas.
I will credit the real old-timers like Cebik, who really shared everything he knew, all his ideas, on his web page, plus a few that are still around. The hams who share their knowledge freely... you know who you are! But they do it on the Web, that's really the only way that's fair and free.
MYTH: New hams have no experimenting skills.
True: I did take a few practice tests online, and I did read some review guides prepared by various hams, but mostly it was hands-on learning: building (and ruining) stuff. Just ask the guys at Radio Shack who see me in there replacing smoked fuses and scrapped coax every other week.
Just ask my wife, who is sick of my piles of discarded antenna experiments stinking up the closet with the smell of soldering flux.
MYTH: Taking code out of the test "dumbed it down."
SPEAKING FOR MYSELF: I took it upon myself to learn Morse code anyway, because I thought it would be useful. I need practice, and know it. I also need practice in ground-to-aircraft hand signals. We all need practice as communicators.
MYTH: New hams lack technical skill.
SPEAKING FOR MYSELF: I once heard someone say, "yeah, these new hams can't fix anything, because they don't have the diagnostic skill." Now, I tremendously respect those among us who can fix transceivers... but I don't awe them. WHEN YOU CAN WRITE SOFTWARE IN JAVA, THEN I WILL AWE YOU!!!
Not much difference in complexity between electronic diagnostics and object-oriented programming. And if you doubt, just try it out.
Maybe all those people who moan about the test being too easy, would be happy if there was a section testing LONG-OVERDUE computer competencies.
Something simple, like an equivalent to COMP-TIA's A+ (R) certification, would show basic proficiency. So we'd know you're good to update a sound card driver to get a digital mode working, or maybe configure a firewall exception to control an HF remote base over IP.
Frankly, that would probably impress our neighbors and emergency managers far more than our ability to check into a phone net.
So come on OM, try to remember when you were new. It was a different world then. Newbies can't live up to the standards of the past.
We'd better not, if we're going to try and keep the hobby alive for another 50 years.
73,
W0GTR
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 11, 2009
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>MYTH: New hams lack technical skill.
Yeah, this one gives me the giggles. I've only had HF privileges for two years and can run rings around most of these people talking head about how we're skilless.
Bring it on.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 11, 2009
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NO6L WROTE:
<MYTH: New hams lack technical skill.
Yeah, this one gives me the giggles. I've only had HF privileges for two years and can run rings around most of these people talking head about how we're skilless.
Bring it on.>
KB0TXC responds:
I could not have stated this better. I will be the first to tell you that I am far from being an 'expert' about amateur radio, no matter what the Plank-AI program accuses me of thinking myself to be. However, that said, during these last two weeks between taking care of my spouse who is recovering from major surgery and writing my thesis, I tuned my B4TV after adding another ten ground radials (it is winter time and the ground is wet and squishy, allowing the wires to easily be pushed into the earth); designed and built an antenna switching system so that when I am listening to the HF bands, I can switch between an active HF antenna, a 'short longwire' and a loop (this is listening, my transmitting antennas are the 4BTV and a trapped dipole in the attic) and I started to recap my very old TT/L-2 RTTY TU that I have come into possession of. (Please, before someone accuses me of not being licensed to use the HF bands as if I were breaking the law, I am NOT transmitting yet. I simply have the gear and the antennas to do so...I hope to be active starting the first of May or there 'bouts.)
Now I know that this is not the same as replacing the SMT caps in my Icoms or designing and building a microprocessor controlled SDR, but still, it does demonstrate that this no-coder can build, repair and understand electronic systems to a degree that more than a few cannot. And to think that I can do this without that most blessed ability to copy CW.
Amazing.
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W7ETA on March 12, 2009
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Myth: Anecdotal experience is truth.
Myth: "New hams lack technical skills" means EVERY new ham.
"Why aren't you people begging KB9YKP to return to the air?"
Myth: There is a group of like minded people calling themselves "You People".
Myth: The group You People has a spokes person to beg KB9YKP to Please! Please! go back on 2 meter repeaters.
Myth: someone other than KB9YKP is better at deciding if KB9YKP should go play on 2 meter repeaters.
Myth: Novice hams are going to straighten out and save ham radio from ops with more than one sunspot cycle of experience.
Myth: Spinoza said "I think therefor it is".
Myth: A ham radio license insures whatever a ham thinks is 100% accurate.
Myth: Technical excellence creates high people to people skills.
Myth: Current 1X3s have as much knowledge as original 1X3s.
Myth: Shortly after WW II the US military stopped sending replacement troops to active units because of the difficulty new hams had being accepted by old hams.
Myth: Morris invented the code tapper.
Myth: Any antenna with low SWR is a good antenna.
Myth: Wayne Green was rational.
Best from warm Tucson
Bob
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AA8X on March 12, 2009
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Reading this post, it’s obvious you newbies enjoy bashing the elder/old fart hams and expect them to kiss your ass just because you are new to amateur radio. For your information, older hams spent many hours learning electronic theory and understand how receivers and transmitters work and can read schematics enabling them to repair and maintain the equipment. They learned the code, traveled many miles to a FCC office to take the code and theory test and wait 6 weeks to get the license in the mail at which time they spent the time setting up a station. Years ago you listened and learned from your elders. Now you memorize a manual, pay a few dollars and presto you are a ham. If you are unhappy with amateur radio and how you are treated, I suggest you give it up and engage in a different hobby. In the mean time listen and learn from the old farts, as I’m sure you will learn a lot and have a good time doing it.
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Numbers
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by N2EY on March 12, 2009
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N2EY: "The number of Technicians is growing in part because, since April 15, 2000, FCC has renewed all Technician Pluses as Technicians. There were over 128,000 Tech Pluses in April 2000, now there are less than 4000, and in about 13 months there will be no more Tech Pluses at all. In addition, any Novice who upgrades by passing the Tech written gets a Technician."
AF6AY: "tries once again to denigrate (his idea of) lower classes as he has done for years on forums."
Len, how does what I wrote denigrate anyone?
AF6AY: "what was that about R&O 99-612 said about ADVANCED or NOVICE classes? Will they still be around after May 2012?"
Probably. A Novice or Advanced who renews gets the same license class. A Technician Plus who renews gets a Technician. While the number of Novices and Advanceds is declining, they still far outnumber Tech Pluses.
Didn't you read 99-612?
AF6AY: "All I can see are facts of numbers and conclude from those. I know no one at the FCC, not even slightly."
Some of your conclusions are in error, and you leave out relevant facts, Len. The picture you paint is often distorted, and a poor illustration of reality.
N2EY: "If you add up the number of Technicians and Technician Pluses back in April 2000 and compare it with the same sum today, the result is a *decline* in both the total and the percentage."
AF6AY: "Not having such explicit information, all I can point to is a FEW statitstics pages before April 2007."
I do have that information. That's why I posted it.
AF6AY: "The only complete listing for earlier statistics is the December 1990 posting (on Compuserve?) from Richard Hoffbeck, N0LOX, to Fritz Anderson, WT9T [no relation to me] which was taken from the FCC database file for November 1988."
One can also look at old Callbooks, which had license totals.
What is the relevance of those 21 year old numbers today, Len?
AF6AY: "In these numbers presented on e-ham, I have not tried to 'highlight' any particular class"
Yes, you have, Len.
You've pointed to the increase in the number of Technicians over and over again, without mentioning some important factors that would cause it to grow, such as the renewal of Tech Pluses as Techs.
AF6AY: "If I draw conclusions based on data and their trends, those are mine alone and do not represent any self-defined Holy Judge of All such as ARRL or N2EY."
It seems, Len, that you do not want any commentary on your conclusions. You want to post your words online and only have people say nice things about them, without pointing out errors of fact and reasoning on your part. Nor should anybody post anything that disagrees with your sacred opinions.
N2EY: "Since the last remnant of code testing was removed from Part 97 about 2 years ago, we've seen a small amount of growth in the total number of US amateurs (as measured by unexpired licenses held by individuals). Which proves that code testing wasn't really a "barrier limiting growth" at all."
AF6AY: "Error, it "PROVES NOTHING" "
It proves exactly what I wrote. If Morse Code testing really was a "barrier" that was "limiting/stopping growth" in amateur radio, its removal would have resulted in a large increase in the number of amateurs. That hasn't happened, as you have noted. So it really wasn't a "barrier" at all.
AF6AY: "For example, in the language of the FCC Regulations prior to 'restructuring' of mid-2000, the 'medical waivers' existed only for 9 years in regulations and still required 5 WPM code cognition. The 'medical waivers' could only affect the 13 and 20 WPM rates by getting the rather rare 'doctor waiver.'"
Medical waivers for 13 and 20 wpm code were available from 1990 to 2000. All that was required was for a letter from a doctor - any M.D. or D.O. could sign it. How "rare" they were is a matter of opinion; FCC database info does not indicate who got a waiver and who didn't.
AF6AY: "With R&O 99-612 came the limit of ALL license testing at 5 WPM and thus the 'medical waivers' could not apply."
Point is, as of 1990 any license class was available with just 5 wpm and a doctor's letter. (And the written exams, of course.)
You could have gotten your Extra almost 20 years ago with just 5 wpm code and a doctor's letter, Len. Or you could have gotten it 9 years ago, as you said you were going to...
AF6AY: "As to license classes allegedly NOT having any code test after 'restructuring' that was ONLY for the ALREADY no-code-test class of Technician. After 'restructuring' happend, FIVE of the SIX classes still had code-testing. Five out of six is NOT a "small remnant" "
Yes, it is, Len, when you consider what it used to be. You weren't a ham then, so you don't really know.
It used to be that the General and Advanced required 13 wpm and Extra required 20 wpm. Sending and receiving, no waivers. No CSCEs, no retests in less than 30 days.
The remaining 5 wpm receiving test was just a remnant of what used to be.
AF6AY: "[of code testing] despite the arrogant knowitall attitude of those who had passed 13 and 20 WPM claiming (as usual) that 5 WPM was a 'nothing' rate."
I've never claimed 5 wpm was 'nothing', Len. You are obviously confusing me with others. What the shrinks call "transference".
AF6AY: "While N2EY has hypocritically claimed "it is over with (R&O 06-178)" "
But Len, it *is* over with. Morse Code testing is gone and it's not coming back. However, the *use* of Morse Code continues.
AF6AY: "he nonetheless cannot Let Go of his old adversaries nor really "not talk about" his opinion of code testing being "the worst thing" that could happen...including to USA amateur radio."
Len, what are you talking about? You're not making any sense. You're misquoting me, too.
AF6AY: "Had the morseaholics and the ardent arrogant olde-tymers gotten their way, they would have continued to stifle, inhibit, and otherwise discourage all other radio hobbyists."
Now you're just ranting, Len.
AF6AY: "Minority rule, repressive minority rule. That continuing even after the Civil Rights Acts made the country as a whole more democratic in principles."
Nonsense.
Let's talk about "minority rule"...
When the comments on the restructuring NPRM of 1998 were tallied, the result was that the majority of those commenting wanted either 2 or 3 code test speeds retained. Only a minority wanted just 5 wpm.
But FCC went with what the minority wanted, and eliminated all but 5 wpm. And in the R&O, FCC made it clear that the ONLY reason they kept 5 wpm was because of the ITU treaty.
When the comments on the restructuring NPRM of 2005 were tallied, the result was that the majority of those commenting wanted at least some code testing to be retained. Only a minority wanted no code testing at all.
But FCC went with what the minority wanted, and eliminated it completely.
Those are the plain and simple facts. In both cases, the MINORITY got what they wanted, and the MAJORITY did not.
AF6AY: "Now how did those necessary-to-EARN regulations come about? Through POLITICS, nothing more. It certainly wasn't for any 'technical reasons' (at least in my lifetime...and I am two years older than the FCC)."
How do you know, Len? You've never worked for FCC.
AF6AY: "The number of USA amateur radio license classes went from the original 1 to 3, then up to 5 until 1991 when it got to the Byazntine Class Distinction of SIX."
No, that's not correct. (The following is about USA amateur radio licenses)
Yes, there was originally just one amateur license class. But even in the 1920s there were two license classes, and by the 1930s there were three (A, B and C).
The 1951 restructuring increased the number of license classes to six: Novice, Technician, General, Conditional, Advanced and Extra. That structure continued for more than 25 years, until, in the 1970s, the FCC phased out the Conditional by renewing all Conditionals as General.
The five-class structure (Novice, Technician, General, Advanced and Extra) existed for about a dozen years until the Technician Plus was added in the early 1990s.
In about a year the last Technician Plus will disappear and we'll be back to 5 classes, same as in the 1980s.
Gee, Len, if you're going to lecture us about history and regulations, you could at least get the facts right.
btw, the word is "Byzantine". Even an amateur writer knows that.
I think I know what you want amateur radio to become:
You'd have just one license class, earned by a simple multiple choice test of 25 questions. Or maybe no test at all. Everyone would have a similar callsign. No vanity calls, no difference in structure. You'd allow no contests or operating awards, no recognitions of operating skills. You'd channelize the amateur bands and allow all modes anywhere.
I think you'd also disband the ARRL, or have it stop all activities other than publishing. You'd do everything possible to discourage the use of modes like CW and AM voice, and to encourage the use of automated modes requiring no operator skill. You'd change the rules so that homebrewing or even using vintage equipment was almost impossible for the average person.
Most of all, you'd require that Amateur Radio be described as a HOBBY whenever it is mentioned, and that public service/emcomm stuff be minimized.
I've come to the above conclusions based on reading many, many of your words.
AF6AY: "'CW' use is STILL brought up as some kind of display that ONLY the olde-fahrts (of mental attitude) consider themselves THE BEST and therefore MUST RULE here and everywhere, even on amateur radio bands...and all 'younger' ones (of mental attitude) SHALL be freely and openly ridiculed forever and ever."
Len, you're describing your own behavior again. What is your purpose in referring to others as "gomer", "olde-fahrts" "morseaholics" or by diminutive nicknames?
Do you think that behavior makes you look smart, brave, funny or young?
Here's a clue: It doesn't.
Show us an example where I have ridiculed anyone for simply being a newcomer, or for not knowing Morse Code. Links to exact quotes, not claims. I don't think you can.
You make a lot of claims about me, but cannot provide anything to back them up.
N2EY: "Now we can get to work on the real problems."
AF6AY: "Oh, my, how patrician a statement."
Why is that a 'patrician statement'?
It is clear that the real causes of lack-of-growth are things like lack of publicity and anti-antenna CC&Rs.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W0GTR on March 12, 2009
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From reading the comments, I can see that of the older hams feel like new hams must want to be kow-towed to, just because they're new hams.
That's not true, at least not for me. I expect to earn my stripes like everyone else. And the fact that you had to spend all that time learning electronics theory, or that it was so inconvenient to write the exam back in those days... is only something to respect and admire.
But what I don't admire is the lack of recognition for the skills that new hams (or old hams, on the cutting edge of new technology) bring to the table.
Don't get me wrong: I love history, and have a tremendous respect for the solutions of the past. Furthermore, I love stuff that still works after 20 or 30 or 40 years. Those approaches were good enough for the people who lived in that world, at that time.
But why is it that none of the people who complain about the skills of new hams are never overheard struggling with *new* technologies? (As in, developed within the last 20 years.)
"Gee, I was trying to build one of those open source, software-defined radio packages, and had trouble with the C libraries -- has anyone taken a look at the header file?"
"Yeah, my router will translate traffic to the repeater controller through port 5000, but I'd like to put in an IPv4 range on the firewall -- what's the format again?"
"Our radio club web page still won't execute that script... what's the recursive switch again on that chmod, is it capital or lowercase r?"
There should be no doubt about it: Computers are moving amateur radio forward. It also took us hours... and hours... and hours to learn those skills. (I spent three days configuring my first RedHat 7.3 distro.) It's up to you if you choose to stay behind, but as least move over, will ya?
All I'm trying to say is that lots of new hams DO have skills, they're just skills that often are not recognized. And that leaves less room in amateur radio for experimentation.
As to the alleged new "Extra" who couldn't solder a PL-259, how is it that the 802.11 wireless crowd -- who aren't even hams -- are experimenting building their own stacked 2.4 GHz collinears? These guys are building passive repeater systems and making RF links over great distances. No lack of hands-on there.
Could it be... What if it's true that amateur radio doesn't know how to attract most of the "best and the brightest" anymore? What if it's true that amateur radio doesn't lead the field in RF experimentation?
Hey OM, we know that you know a lot... you don't need to brag... your skills are respected! But look hard, and you'll see there's a lot more going on that no one could imagine way back when.
Thanks to everyone who put forward their ideas and responses!
73 de W0GTR
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W7AIT on March 12, 2009
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Hey Terry: I’ll gladly help you. I’ve been a ham since 1964 AT AGE 14. During that time I’ve personally elmered and helped license about 20 hams or more. I continue to help new hams all the time. I’m a degreed engineer and even though I’m now retired, I gladly help any new hams or potential hams, yes even CBer’s who want help. I even give away some equipment, accessories to them from time to time.
As far as CW – it needed to go away as a testing requirement. Its time has past as a profession. HOWEVER I use CW in about 90% of my hamming because it has tremendous signal advantage over SSB or any voice mode. So I think CW will always be around, just less of it. It might be good to operate it from time to time because you can quickly and easily work DX on CW – it gets through when SSB does not. I won’t ever put you down because of CW. I like it for these reasons and maybe you will too some day.
Digital modes aren’t all as great as they are cracked up to be, they take a lot of equipment, software etc and not everyone has that nor is everyone wanting to talk on a keyboard; the mic and key are much more fun than a keyboard!
Please, hang in there and hang with the right people; all of us old timers are not bad guys, a lot of us are here to help. Not all hams are old curmudgeon old farts – a lot of us want to help you enjoy the hobby. Just seek out people you like and enjoy the hobby. Its given me years of enjoyment.
Chip W7AIT
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 12, 2009
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AA8X wrote:
Reading this post, it’s obvious you newbies enjoy bashing the elder/old fart hams and expect them to kiss your ass just because you are new to amateur radio. For your information, older hams spent many hours learning electronic theory and understand how receivers and transmitters work and can read schematics enabling them to repair and maintain the equipment. They learned the code, traveled many miles to a FCC office to take the code and theory test and wait 6 weeks to get the license in the mail at which time they spent the time setting up a station. Years ago you listened and learned from your elders. Now you memorize a manual, pay a few dollars and presto you are a ham. If you are unhappy with amateur radio and how you are treated, I suggest you give it up and engage in a different hobby. In the mean time listen and learn from the old farts, as I’m sure you will learn a lot and have a good time doing it.
KB0TXC Responds:
This post demonstrates why many people are put off by the those amateur ops that act like old farts. This is the epitome of the old sour puss who is pissed off because admittance to "his" hobby and "his" airwaves no longer requires the rite of passage that involved the ability to copy the old and outmoded CW.
Thats right OM, continue to be bitter about the "you newbies" as you so un-eloquently call them. They did not have to pass the code test like you did to use the HF frequencies. How terribly unfair! (sarcasm intended) There are still those OF amateurs that continue to bitch that we do not need to be proficient in code to use the VHF and UHF frequencies!
I am sure that you had to walk six miles everyday to school in a driving blizzard up hill both ways <as well as> pass your precious code exam. So? What do you want from me? A medal or a chest to pin it on? Times change, OM. Times really do change, and one can be bitter about it or accept that times do change. It is not my Karma that is damaged by your bitterness.
CW is fine for those who like it. More power to you. It is a great skill that is very difficult to learn, particularly for those of us that are not audio learners. However, (and thank Bastet) it is no longer being used as a gatekeeper to prevent folk from becoming an amateur radio operator. Just like written English proficiency tests are no longer used to keep those folks of minority ethnicities from voting in old Dixie.
The ladies aid society of Newington is still fuming over the FCC dismissing their beatings and protestations of removing the code requirement from the amateur radio license requirement. How charming. The OFs at the Newington knitting club were (and are still) pissed. Tsk tsk.
Life goes on, OM. Either go with it or be left behind. I am sure that there are plenty of CW nets out there to participate in where the no code "you newbies" will not bother you and your ilk with their modern, no-code ways.
Finally, the tone of your post makes me feel that you think that those "you newbies" should genuflect in front of you and grovel at your feet in admiration and worship of your skills and amateur radio prowess. How cute. You probably really feel that way, too. Sorry, I am not a "you newbie" as I have been a licensed amateur op for 14 years (first licensed in 1995). Though I do have respect for those that come before me and their skills, if they have the attitude that I *must* be in awe of their skills or whatever, then sorry, you be outta luck.
Joe KB0TXC
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K2LS on March 12, 2009
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It takes all kinds.
WELCOME!!!
I have been licensed for 53 years and get the most pleasure out of helping new hams.
Please, do not be discourages..
73, Larry
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KILO4UUG on March 12, 2009
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I thought so untill I received this E-MAIL from oldfartextra@yahoo.com STEVE OLD FART 13 WHO CLAIMS TO BE AN EXTRA CLASS HAM BUT NEVER GIVES HIS CALL SIGN.
"Don;t worry Rick, I will always know that I earned a real ham license and did not wait for the FCC to dumb down the requirement so the that losers like K4UUG could get a useless welfare license."
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N4TTS on March 12, 2009
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So the "old farts" won't let you play in any of their reindeer games?
Oh boo friggen hoo junior.
Every night I finally get some time after work,
family time and home chores to speak with my radio
friends of almost 20 years and what happens?
We have to endure an almost constant litany of
"contact", "break", "QRZ" or whatever other CB
colloquialism the ninja newbies can puke into
their microphone to try to garner attention from
the group.
Now, we may be discussing backyard nuclear fission
experiments, long legged women, observations of
older age life experiences or whatever the topic du jour.
The little tiny voices in the background get more desperate
and insistent by the second until one of us has a soft hearted
moment and acknowledge the poorly social graced interrupter
only to have the exact same scenario play itself out ad nauseam:
<crackle, screech, buzzzzzzzz> " This is Newbie 9 No Life Wannabe,
that's N9NLW (now a blazing S1), my first personal is Dick,
I spell P E N I S, I'm running 10 watts into a $200.00 G5VD antenna
on my Swan 3 and I wuz just wondering how many pounds am I puttin'
on ya tonight and where are you guys at"?
Our soft hearted and dumbfounded friend is now required to engage
in yet another 20 minute explanation to poor ol' "Dick" telling him just
because he can hear us with 20 over nine signals doesn't preclude his
signal level and intelligibility from being no where near par.
Normally instead of bringing the realization to "Dick" he may need
to rethink his station lash up, it usually causes the Dickster to become
incredulous or angry and then argumentative over his less than
stellar report.
While all this is taking place it's almost as if a fly spotting network
has published our frequency as the location of a road-kill-ripe opossum
feast because now we have a bevy of "Dicks" queuing up for their own
turn at disappointment. Then all the "Dicks" start talking among themselves,
ignoring the fact the original group was enjoying a little camaraderie
and conversation of our own before they so rudely interrupted the
proceedings with their self-serving, self-centered agendas.
Can you ever imagine, being a complete stranger, walking up and
crowding into the center of a group of friends standing on a public
street and screaming, "can you guys hear me"? It's the same thing boys.
Before getting all teary-eyed about not getting respect, acceptance and
attention with your shiny new license in hand, try to learn the meaning of
a few words such as: elocution, patience, listening, humble, manners
and a few others that deal with social grace.
Another thing, if you don't know how your station sounds BEFORE you
get on the air with it, you need to perform more due diligence with respect
to communications electronics and propagation knowledge.
My best advise would be, don't be a "Dick"...
Don N4TTS
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 12, 2009
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N4TTS wrote:
So the "old farts" won't let you play in any of their reindeer games...
Oh boo friggen hoo junior...
(etc ad nauseam).
KB0TXC (the disgusted) responds:
Another old fart country heard from! (Eating some burnt toast will help that gas problem, OM.) My god, the "ham" community suffers such sever health disorders...geeze, stewed prunes for AI2IA and now, burnt toast for N4TTS!
AHHH HAAHAAHAAHAAHAAA...
Snerk...
Glad that you hold yourself and your skills in such high regard, OM... The fifteen year old that I Elmered and helped get on the air has a nicer attitude and spirit (as well as better on air manners) than you.
Now go walk six miles to school in a blizzard...old fart!
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N4TTS on March 12, 2009
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KB0TXC (the uninformed) dribbled:
Another old fart... blah, blah, blah...
N4TTS succinctly responds:
A prime example of yet another "Dick".
Stay on two meters, it's obviously where you belong.
Don N4TTS
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K4EDG on March 12, 2009
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Wow. The amount of vitriol generated in this thread is really amazing, as is the number of "chips on shoulders" conspicuously displayed. Can't we all just get along since we are all in the same electronic boat together? As a friend of mine once said, "If you are not having fun, you are doing something wrong." Fighting with each other takes the fun out of the room.
Peace.
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The Escher License Class
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by N2EY on March 12, 2009
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I think I have a solution to the problem of old timers, newcomers, tests, etc.
What's needed is a new class of amateur radio license: The Escher Class
In order to earn an Escher Class license, you must already have a valid FCC-issued amateur license. But that's just the beginning.
The test part is the big thing:
If you're an old-timer, you have to pass the current exams for your license class, at a real live VE session. And you have to get as good or better score as the best-scoring person there who isn't going for Escher Class.
If you're a newcomer, you have to pass the old-time exams from, say, 40 or 50 years ago.
The Escher Class license doesn't give you any more operating privileges than you already have, nor a vanity call.
What the Escher Class license does is give you a trump card. Whenever someone starts to gripe about newcomers, oldtimers, or testing, you simply mention that you have an Escher Class license, and they automatically lose the argument.
Waddya think, sirs?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W4HIJ on March 12, 2009
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Before one more old fart decides to post about"newbies" not respecting them I think it should be pointed out that a lot of the post here that decry the attitude and demeanor of the "old farts" are from older long licensed experienced hams.
Age or experience in radio doesn't make you the type of person I'm talking about and writing against, it's the attitude.
The "that guy didn't have to pass what I did to get his license so I'm not going to talk to him or if I do I'm going to treat him like crap" attitude is what all this is about.
I'm 46 now, I have been licensed since I was 15. I passed a written exam as well as a code test to get my ticket. Want to tell me me, I'm some newbie disrespecting you? Nope, I'm an older long experienced ham and I'm disrespecting you sour pussed narrow minded old farts because you don't deserve my respect. You act like nothing more than children.
Funny thing is I'd bet if put on the spot most of you would be hard pressed to pass today's Extra class written exam that you whine constantly is so easy.
This business about being able to work on radios is ridiculous too. Sure you probably can troubleshoot and work on a Drake TR-4 or a Collins or maybe an old Hallicrafters receiver. I can too. But how many of you can troubleshoot and repair a modern day microprocessor controlled rig full of SMD technology like a Kenwood TS-2000 or a Yaesu FT-1000? I'd bet not many of you. I can't either.
Quit acting like you're Gods gift to radio and get on with your lives. GEEEZ!! I've wasted enough of my life on this thread, time for me to move on.
I just couldn't stand to read another post by one of you narrow minded old fools claiming newbies didn't respect you. I'm far from a newbie and I don't respect you.
73,
Michael
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W6PU on March 12, 2009
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Hello Terry, sorry that you're having this problem!
Except for some DX contests, I pretty much have been avoiding using SSB for the last five years, in favor of CW operating, as IMO, SSB has been sounding more and more like the worst examples of the CB band!
In the 70s, my best friend, who I would say has only average intelligence, was a CB operator, and asked me to help him to become a Ham.
He was able to pass his Novice test one month later, and presently holds an Advanced Class Ham ticket.
He is a considerate and excellent Ham Radio operator, who operates mainly on the HF bands, but has also switched over from SSB, to CW, for the same reasons as I have!
I do not find this crass behavior to be occurring on the CW bands, where good manners and civility are still the norm!
I would suggest that you take the time to learn CW, and give it a try. Learning CW really doesn't take all that long, and I taught my XYL in about two weeks.
In my ham career, I have helped many others to learn CW, and it has never been longer than one month before they were on the air copying at least 10 WPM!
Once you actually get on the air with CW, you will just be amazed how quickly your code speed increases as you practice more and more!
73
Bob W6PU
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W6PU on March 12, 2009
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Hello Terry, sorry that you're having this problem!
Except for some DX contests, I pretty much have been avoiding using SSB for the last five years, in favor of CW operating, as IMO, SSB has been sounding more and more like the worst examples of the CB band!
In the 70s, my best friend, who I would say has only average intelligence, was a CB operator, and asked me to help him to become a Ham.
He was able to pass his Novice test one month later, and presently holds an Advanced Class Ham ticket.
He is a considerate and excellent Ham Radio operator, who operates mainly on the HF bands, but has also switched over from SSB, to CW, for the same reasons as I have!
I do not find this crass behavior to be occurring on the CW bands, where good manners and civility are still the norm!
I would suggest that you take the time to learn CW, and give it a try. Learning CW really doesn't take all that long, and I taught my XYL in about two weeks.
In my ham career, I have helped many others to learn CW, and it has never been longer than one month before they were on the air copying at least 10 WPM!
Once you actually get on the air with CW, you will just be amazed what fun it is, how quickly your code speed increases as you practice more and more!
73
Bob W6PU
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W6PU on March 12, 2009
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Hello Terry, sorry that you're having this problem!
Except for some DX contests, I pretty much have been avoiding using SSB for the last five years, in favor of CW operating, as IMO, SSB has been sounding more and more like the worst examples of the CB band!
In the 70s, my best friend, who I would say has only average intelligence, was a CB operator, and asked me to help him to become a Ham.
He was able to pass his Novice test one month later, and presently holds an Advanced Class Ham ticket.
He is a considerate and excellent Ham, who operates mostly on the HF bands, and has also switched over from SSB, to CW, for the same reasons as I have!
I do not find this crass behavior to be occurring on the CW bands, where good manners and civility are still the norm!
I would suggest that you take the time to learn CW, and give it a try. Learning CW really doesn't take all that long, and I taught my XYL in about two weeks.
In my ham career, I have helped many others to learn CW, and it has never been longer than one month before they were on the air copying at least 10 WPM!
Once you actually get on the air with CW, you will just be amazed what fun it is, how quickly your code speed increases as you practice more and more!
73
Bob W6PU
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KE7AKS on March 12, 2009
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W E L C O M E new ham ! please don't let a few old grouches get to you about radio. We should always appreciate some one that will talk to us, be they old or new. Try to imagine owning a multi thousand dollar super radio with all the bells and whistles, but no one wants to talk to you. The net worth of that radio then is about two cents. That may be the situation of the old farts in your area. If you ever have occasion to travle through the Portland Oregon area, you will be very welcome on the air ways here. 146.960 no tone
or 147.040 we probably have some very interesting lies to convey to you... I also feel that is is a chalenge to each of us to try to talk about something INTERESTING... Not just NAME IS--- LOCATION IS--- RADIO IS--- ANTENNA IS--- WEATHER IS---
73
Harv KE7AKS
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 12, 2009
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W45HIJ writes: "Funny thing is I'd bet if put on the spot most of you would be hard pressed to pass today's Extra class written exam that you whine constantly is so easy."
You'd lose that bet with me. I know because every couple of months I try a couple of online practice tests.
---
I think the big problem is that some folks talk/write in sweeping generalities that really only apply to a few.
For example, I'm sure that at least some newcomers simply memorize, word-associate and guess their way through the exams, and don't really understand much about the material. And I'm sure there are some old grumpy-gus types who don't understand the first thing about, say, satellite tracking, PSK31 or solidstate RF power amplifiers.
But in my experience those folks are a tiny minority. They're the exception, not the rule. So it naturally raises hackles to read condemnations of whole groups for the actions and attitudes of a few.
Remember that respect works both ways.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KK1S on March 12, 2009
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I'm 63, with some "back-in-the-day" experience as a radio/radar repair tech. After a 30+ year absence I recently got into ham radio as an "extra-out-of-the-box." That's much worse than being merely a "new ham." Have I taken flack over that? Absolutely, but never of the sort that caused me to consider quitting ham radio.
As a "shake-and-bake," no code, extra class operator, I knew going in that I would likely have my feet held to the fire by my elders and betters, and by the more experienced operators among us. True to expectation, that's happened, and I sincerely hope it continues. Who better to teach me than those who have already been there, done that?
After all (a little radio humor here), many of the
"older hams" had to walk 25 miles in a blinding blizzard (uphill both ways) and sit for their exams before unsmiling, unblinking "suits" from the FCC, not friendly, smiling VEs. No coffee, no sticky buns, no head calls, no cell phones, no calculators, no nothing, save their desire for a ticket.
They had to beat out code, know enough about radio to draw and explain various electronic circuits, and just generally know a heck of a lot more about this hobby than we newbies. It's worth mentioning that many of those "Older Hams" built their own equipment back then, and some still do, to this day.
Contrast that, if you will, with we newbies. Memorize the question pools, pass the exams (no code, no real electronics knowledge), then jump on the net and buy the latest and greatest equipment available. Voila! Instant ham radio operator extraordinaire, at a K and a half. No wonder they're a bit pissed.
You said "I am disturbed at the less than enthusatic welcome that I have received from many of the 'Older Hams'" You were expecting, perhaps, a brass band? The
"Older Hams," as you describe them, require that you prove yourself as an operator, nothing more, or less.
That, my ham friend, is on you...
"Title equal to that of an older ham?" Of course it is, but if you see any disparity there, I suggest you join a club. There's a lot to be learned from the crusty old curmudgeons.
I find it interesting that after only a year and a half you have "evaluated" ham radio and solicited criticism of a hobby that has been around for quite some time, before yours or mine, and will hopefully outlive us both.
Exhibit good operating practice, focus on learning how to use your equipment effectively, how and why it works, and find your niche. If you don't like the
"old hams," avoid them. You can even go digital, and avoid CW and/or phone.
"A hobby that few find interesting?" That notion is laughable on its face. You got here, did you not?
The "older hams" are nothing more, or less, than a national treasure. Personality and political issues aside, if this hobby is not for you, then begone.
All said and done, welcome to ham radio.
73
WA4KGM
ARRL/W5YI VE
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AA5JG on March 12, 2009
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Here is an analogy from the business world that also applies to our current licensing situation:
Supposed you have worked at the same company for 25 years. You have earned a college degree and a master's degree because they were required for your job. You have learned quite a bit on the job, have had several promotions, and earn a decent salary. You are happy at your job and have no plans to leave.
The company reorganizes a bit and they hire a new employee and put him in the office next to yours. He has no previous work experience, and in fact is a high school dropout. They give him the same job title as you have, and pay him the same amount as you currently make.
So how would you feel? Most people would be instinctively angry. They would feel that this is unfair. They might even treat this new employee poorly and refuse to associate with him, harboring some hostility towards him for making the same amount of money as they do.
But why? Your salary hasn't been reduced at all. You make the same as before. Your job hasn't been cheapened at all, has it? It isn't this new employees fault that they decided to give him the same salary as you, or that he didn't have to earn a master's degree. Still, most people would say that this is somehow unfair.
Now see what some of us 20wpm extras might be feeling at times?
73s John AA5JG
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 12, 2009
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N4TTS blathered:
A prime example of yet another "Dick".
Stay on two meters, it's obviously where you belong.
KB0TXC (the unimpressed with the pre-adolescent-esc attempt at an insult) responds:
This is the prime example to be held up by the "ham" community as an "OLD FART"!
Maybe the Newington knitting club can come up with an award JUST FOR YOU, OLD FART! You can proudly display it for all the world to see.
ALL HAIL THE OLD FART AND HIS PRECIOUS 20 WPM CW SKILLS!
Why don't you go take a Viagra pops, and get over yourself. No one else takes you seriously.
No 73's for the OLD FART!
Joe KB0TXC
Oh, by the way, I not only work 2 meter, but 222MHz, and the 440MHz band, and 2 meter mostly in SSB. The only time that I really listen to a 2 meter repeater is during foul weather. I have most of my HF gear put together, and I hope to have my new "welfare" general ticket this May, and I WILL BE ON HF, OLD FART! And if you do not like it OLD FART, all I can say is that it sucks to be you!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N6NKN on March 12, 2009
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I must say. eHam does seem to bring out the best in people. LOL
Rick N6NKN
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WD9FUM on March 12, 2009
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RE: John, AA5JG's business world example.
So, The Company hires some kid who couldn't pour beer out of a bottle if it had directions on the bottom.
Hell yes, I'd be mad... at The Company!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N4TTS on March 12, 2009
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KB0TXC (feebly attempting to piss someone off) spewed:
This is the prime example to be held up by the "ham" community...
N4TTS (non-pharmaceutically assisted) stiffly stated:
Joe, I've seen better flames on a wet match.
Whatever self-deluded adventure you're on doesn't
impress or affect me in the least.
You can get five box top general tickets for all I care.
Your intelligence will never even approach subpar so
go back and play with your high freak buddies until
you memorize enough test answers to get your toy upgrade.
I look forward to ignoring you on the bands.
Don N4TTS
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 12, 2009
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Rick N6NKN wrote:
I must say. eHam does seem to bring out the best in people. LOL
KB0TXC responds:
Doesn't it though, HIHI???!!!!
I normally would not unload like this, but that OF just got under my skin with his bitterness.
What I am saying is not about whether or not I agree or disagree with someone. There are a lot of folk that I disagree with, sometimes strongly, but who I still have the utmost respect for.
There are two regular gents on these forums, both of whom that I have a great deal of respect for, but that constantly disagree with each other in rather interesting banter.
Len AF6AY (Hope that I got that right) is an old time electronic comms guy from the military during a time when there were no satellites, no digital error checking, when reception depended upon how well one could tune a rack mounted (actually a huge number of rack mounted) tube receivers, when things such as understanding ionospheric propagation had to be as familiar as the back of your hand, when transmission powers could instantly kill you yet you had to work on the transmitters 'hot' sometimes...the list is endless. I admire that and respect that of him. Yet Len disagrees with my premise that name of our space agency NASA really stands for Never A Straight Answer, and that there have been so many anomalies found on the moon and some of the planets and or their moons, that there is a huge hidden set of knowledge out there that is being kept from us. That is OK... I do not think less of Len because he disagrees with me. Indeed, I listen to his thoughts upon my thinking of this subject with the idea that I need to find even more evidence (not rhetoric) to support statements.
Then there is Jim N2EY who has been an amateur radio operator for years and years. He probably knows the insides of the old hollowstate gear that I love so much better than most amateur ops (definitely including me) left today do. I have a good feeling that Jim knows the FCC rules and regs better than some at the ARRL (That I belong to and lovingly refer to as the Newington knitting club) do as well as knowing and practicing the best of the amateur operating procedures. However, he disagrees with me on several issues, specifically labor and political issues. That is OK too. Again, I might not agree, but I really respect his knowledge, his ability and his willingness to intelligently communicate with me. He is also a 20+ WPM CW operator, but he has never used that as a means belittle me as I am a no-code operator. He is not a CW 'old fart' by any stretch.
No, I usually react to those posts with a few comments, but N4TTS really is an old, bitter sourpuss whose spirit has the potential to drive off new and prospective amateur radio operators.
As I have stated elsewhere, I am no "newbie" as I have been licensed and active for 14 going on 15 years (god, has it been that long), and some of the most inspiring new amateurs are the kids. I have helped teach several amateur radio classes, and personally Elmered a now fifteen year old to get his license. Once he had his ticket, I made sure that he had a radio and antenna...we built a modified J-pole and I recrystaled an old FM rig for him. (I knew his mother way back when we were in high school) Now his mom is getting into radio as well. I sure as hell hope that when he gets his general, that he will not run into N4TTS...he would probably take up stamp collecting if he did...
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 12, 2009
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Mail this to a friend!
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AA8X, a self-proclaimed God of Ham, wanting to engage in Word War III, crayon-scribbled on 12 Mar 09:
"Reading this post, it’s obvious you newbies enjoy bashing the elder/old fart hams and expect them to kiss your ass just because you are new to amateur radio."
Your Extreme Worship and Lord High Mighty Sir AA8X, I qualify (also in some other eyes from Mount Olympus in Newington) as a 'newbie' to AMATEUR radio and was born in 1932. Since you are arithmetically challenged, that would make me 76. Here's some NEWS to you to contemplate while you are sitting on your High Throne (a one-holer): I took my first-ever amateur radio license test when I was 74. Ah, but now here's where you run out of Sears Catalog pages (to substitute for toilet tissue in your mighty throne): I've been a PROFESSIONAL in electronics for 56 years, have legally transmitted RF on frequencies from VLF on up to 25 GHz, once "worked" a station ON the moon. I could go on, but it would be like taking candy from a baby, you obviously being the mental infant.
................
AA8X: "For your information, older hams spent many hours learning electronic theory and understand how receivers and transmitters work and can read schematics enabling them to repair and maintain the equipment."
Ooooooooo! Such a STRUGGLE for you...you being SO OLD and all! Tell us when the President of the United States presents you with the Medal of Freedom as a reward for your Service to the Country by doing your amateur radio hobby for so long...I'm sure the ARRL Letter would feature you as Hero of the Year!
Oh, oh, oh, oh...you had to LEARN SCHEMATICS! Wow, a Nobel Prize quality if there ever was one. As a voluntary Army enlistee DURING the Korean War, I was required to very quickly learn to transmit on HF, then VHF and UHF, even though the US Army did NOT teach me formally how to use high-power HF transmitters NOR the overall communications system that spanned the globe in the 1950s. NO LICENSE REQUIRED OR NEEDED for that. We real 'newbies' just went and DID IT. At the same time we soldiers also had to practice on keeping our skills of killing the enemy. So, most High Holy AA8X, did you ever HAVE to kill people while doing your heroic AMATEUR radio? Hmmmm?
Geez, LEARNING SCHEMATICS is some PhD task fit only for the Supermen of Amateur Radio? I think your ego balloon has gone up above angels 50 and you have no parachute.
Wow and wowee Superham, you HAD TO REPAIR YOUR OWN RADIO?!? Gollee Gomer, I could replace tubes and solder wires while I was still in Junior High School (62 years ago for me)..and did. I never thought that was a skill at all, certainly not something to be featured in the Smithsonian Museum. I learned, somewhat, how "receivers and transmitters worked" in that same time period. Learning from borrowed issues of CQ and QST, articles in Popular Science and Radio Craft ALL BY MYSELF. I didn't think anything special about it, it was just fun. Of course I had to UNlearn a lot of that, replacing it with REAL theory that was repeatable and measureable. Well, here's more news, Superfart: NOBODY GAVE ME ANY MONEY to study electronics, I had to pay for formal classes out of my own pocket when it was too difficult to study 'theory' at home...NOBODY injected me with any Secret Smart Nanites that gave me all the knowledge I had to get for myself. I've devoted thousands of hours of my own time over the last half century learning more, as much as I could, using that knowledge on the job successfully. Why does Your Mightyness DISCREDIT that because I did not get an amateur radio license until 2007? Why does Your Superiorness DISCREDIT things like getting a First Class Commercial license 51 years before that? Yes, according to Your Mightyness, WE have to do like YOU did or be thought of as NOTHING.
...............
AA8X (Superham): "They learned the code, traveled many miles to a FCC office to take the code and theory test and wait 6 weeks to get the license in the mail at which time they spent the time setting up a station."
Oh, oh, Oh, OHHHH! How DEFICIENT US NEWBIES must be compared to these GODS of HAM! We (hack, spit, ptui) 'newbies' DIDN'T ALL LEARN MORSE CODE! Morse code, the VERY ESSENCE OF RADIO? Here's a clue, Most Superior Excellency and God of Ham, when I was assigned to Signal School in the Army, I discovered the REST OF THE RADIO WORLD DIDN'T THINK MUCH ABOUT MORSE CODE. That was in 1952. Hello? Like 57 years ago. When the Army assigned me to the third-largest HF station in ACAN in 1953, I learned that NO RADIO CIRCUIT crossing the Pacific used morse code mode to handle a quarter million messages a MONTH. [has the amateur NTS en toto handled even a tenth of that a year?] WE didn't think anything of it at the time, we just DID it. Yes, WE didn't "make everything ourselves" as another God of HAM keeps puffing about...WE used left-over ready-builts from WWII, NO license required, NO morse code skills required, NO formal schooling required (Fixed-Station Equipment MOSs didn't exist then), WE just DID it...and HAD to repair things ourselves if they went bad...no Sams folders to go by, no Einsteinian "Hints and Kinks" columns from QST...our only mentors were higher rank enlisted soldiers and Technical Manuals. How about that, warfighting done WITHOUT MORSE CODE! In the 1950s! NO FCC LICENSE REQUIRED! Working DX 24/7 because we HAD to.
After active duty was over in 1956, I thought it a good thing to get a Commercial license at age 23. It was good for personal income. Let me explain something to your 'Elders.' The FCC NEVER REGULATED MILITARY RADIO. Civilian regulations WERE NOT TAUGHT BY THE MILITARY. I had to learn the FCC civilian regulations by myself. Okay, I just buckled down and tried to memorize the ENTIRE FCC regulations at the time. I traveled the short 90-mile distance to a Chicago Field Office by train. Was a nice sunny day at the end of February 1956 and I kept my shoes on all the way, no snow to walk barefoot through the snow uphill both ways. Gosh, when I think back on it, compared to these Superior ELDERS, the Gods of Amateurism, I had it SO EASY! "Everything was given to me, I had all the advantages" chirped N2EY several times (another God of Ham on here). My Commercial license certificate arrived in the mail in 3 weeks, not 6.
Yeah, compared to a Sunday of 25 February 2007, I just drove a mile to a former firehouse (in the 2005 car we had paid for in cash), parked in the supermarket across the street, went in and took it, passed it. I had it so EASY! Paid $14 to the ARRL VEC team and just went and passed all three test elements. Easy, easy, easy, right? You don't think a mere 54 years as a Pro in electronics before that helped? Like 15 assorted years of formal college training done IN ADDITION to a Pro job of minimum 40 hours a week helped any? No, I had it SO easy, I must stand in shame in front of these Gods of Ham who became novitiates in tender teen years and took Vows of Morsemanship, of lifelong Worship of the Church of St.Hiram? Gosh, Superham, I shoold feel so unworthy, right? WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
................
SUPERHAM AA8X: "Years ago you listened and learned from your elders."
Does being 76 qualify as an 'elder,' Superham? Try to guess what I would say to you, Mighty God of Ham...IN-PERSON. I can't write it out here because the administration of e-ham would probably rightly toss me off. :-) Here's a hint, though...I EARNED my 'three-up-and-one-down' E-5 rank in the Army. :-)
Note: Normally I'd tell you off with a simple 'kiss my yes.' In these modern times of STDs spreading so eaily, I don't want you doing that, no matter how much you might enjoy it.
..............
StuporHAM aa8x: "If you are unhappy with amateur radio and how you are treated, I suggest you give it up and engage in a different hobby."
FIRST sensible thing you've written in here, Superfart. Yes, I've been giving that some serious thought. We 'newbies' are SO deficient in your High and Mighty Eyes, you wanting all that Worship and Adulation for all that 'Hard Work' YOU did and the rest of us 'NEVER DID.' Pfaugh! Nope, I could never go along with your concept, Your Supreme Righteous Highness. Call me a heretic if you wish. Call me all names. Call me a taxi. I might want to go somewhere else where there are normal humans.
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SuperFart AA8X: "In the mean time listen and learn from the old farts, as I’m sure you will learn a lot and have a good time doing it."
God FORBID *I* should ever give ANY instruction to Ye Olde Fahrts? I am SO unworthy in their presence and am "always wrong" while They are "always right." THEY SAY SO! Commandments from Mount Olympus by Gods of Ham. Those Gods of Ham control all Laws of Physics just from being Superfarts of Morse! Ham Radio is SO different from all other radio! Absolutely. The Gods of Ham have decreed it!
Yes, we 'newbies' SHALL enjoy whatever YOU say, right? Anything that YOU do is a MUST for everyone else, for you are a Ruler (who thinks he has 12 inches). Yes, according to Your Mightyness we 'newbies' KNOW NOTHING about amateur radio, right? Whatever you gods of ham say, is SO. Ptui. A loogie at your feet, mighty one.
..............
I'm not going to hold myself up as any paragon of HAM, NOT a model to follow. I'm not expecting anyone to walk in my shoes...so many of the Elderly would stumble immediately. I just got into amateur radio by licensing because I could. I actually thought it might be FUN. MY kind of fun. I'm not interested in 'contesting' and don't consider that 'sport.' I'm not interested in 'DX' or collecting wallpaper or have all those jazzy 'certificates' on any walls. I will do whatever I want to do. All you Gods of Ham can go excrete your particular kind of ham evangelism somewhere else, as far as I am concerned.
God forgive you...I sure can't.
[no regards whatsoever] AF6AY
ex-RA16408336, USA SigC, 1952-1960
Life Member, IEEE (a Professional Engineering Association)
af6ay@arrl.net (until March 31st)
LenAnderson@ieee.org
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 12, 2009
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Mail this to a friend!
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KB0TXC posted on 12 Mar 09:
{AA8X wrote a bunch of snotty drivel, not repeated here}
KB0TXC: "This post demonstrates why many people are put off by the those amateur ops that act like old farts. This is the epitome of the old sour puss who is pissed off because admittance to "his" hobby and "his" airwaves no longer requires the rite of passage that involved the ability to copy the old and outmoded CW."
Joe, that creature went over to the dark side of the mental force. I've seen it SO many times in the last half-century. I gave him a reply which was also over the top...it was irrestable for me, one who enjoys popping over-inflated ego balloons. [there are so many of them, it is like receiving something protected by bubble wrap...:-)]
.................
KB0TXC: "I am sure that you had to walk six miles everyday to school in a driving blizzard up hill both ways <as well as> pass your precious code exam. So? What do you want from me? A medal or a chest to pin it on? Times change, OM. Times really do change, and one can be bitter about it or accept that times do change. It is not my Karma that is damaged by your bitterness."
I like to think my karma ran over his dogma. :-)
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KB0TXC: "The ladies aid society of Newington is still fuming over the FCC dismissing their beatings and protestations of removing the code requirement from the amateur radio license requirement. How charming. The OFs at the Newington knitting club were (and are still) pissed. Tsk tsk."
That's one of many things that made me give up any thought of renewing. End of March is bye-bye for my membership. They did NOTHING for me that I couldn't do as a non-member. As to the claim some had about "working from within" for change, that is impossible. I may be old but I'm not in THEIR old-boys clique.
..................
KB0TXC: "Life goes on, OM. Either go with it or be left behind. I am sure that there are plenty of CW nets out there to participate in where the no code "you newbies" will not bother you and your ilk with their modern, no-code ways."
I really wish he would stop. I'm not eager to go into a living museum of ancient radio skills. No matter. When his time comes, cremation has a high enough furnace temperature to melt any code key stuck in his cold, lifeless fist.
..................
KB0TXC: "Finally, the tone of your post makes me feel that you think that those "you newbies" should genuflect in front of you and grovel at your feet in admiration and worship of your skills and amateur radio prowess. How cute. You probably really feel that way, too. Sorry, I am not a "you newbie" as I have been a licensed amateur op for 14 years (first licensed in 1995). Though I do have respect for those that come before me and their skills, if they have the attitude that I *must* be in awe of their skills or whatever, then sorry, you be outta luck."
The best I could summon up was to hock a loogie at his feet. :-)
73 x 2, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 12, 2009
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Mail this to a friend!
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W0GTR posted some good points on 12 Mar 09:
"KE7OSV has raised a real issue here, new hams face challenges to their legitimacy."
Yeah, in a way...many olde-fahrts think we 'newbies' such bastards. :-)
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W0GTR: "MYTH: Elmers make new hams."
I have yet to find a REAL 'Elmer.' Oh, a LOT of them SAY they are, but beyond that, they go into generalities and never mention WHO they mentored unless they are family members. What is there that requires all that mentoring about operating a radio? Really?
I got interested in radio as a young teen-ager back in late 1946, wanting to know more about radio control of model aircraft that I built and flew (free flight back then). A few mentions of amateur radio were in Model Airplane News magazine, the membership magazine of the Academy of Model Aeronautics or AMA. One model club member had a 'ham license' but he would rather fly his models than teach some young squirt 'all about radio.' [I was coming up on age 14] Popular Science magazine 'taught me' some basics, amateur radio magazines just didn't appear on all magazine racks in my northern Illinois city of about 75K population then. When H&H Electronics opened in 1947, they had real 'radio parts' for sale, ones that customers could touch and feel. More important, the first of the WWII Surplus appeared on the market. I bought two Command Sets, learned enough to make AC power supplies for them, how to tune a transmitter, how to align a receiver, could load up an AC light bulb bright. Sold both 40m sets at a minor profit. By 1949 I'd become acquainted with a nice blond gal in my high school class, made her an 'instant-on' AM BC receiver out of surplus Handie-Talkie bartered parts. [it had quick-heating battery-filament tubes and there were no transistors affordable then] She is still my girlfriend, also my wife. :-)
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W0GTR: "MYTH: These new hams are just memorizing the test questions."
I've taken (and passed on first try) just two FCC top-of-the-line licenses. The first was a First 'Phone (Commercial) in 1956. I had just been released from the US Army and thought it a good thing to get a commercial license. The Army NEVER taught us civilian regulatory agency rules (the FCC never regulated the military) so I just memorized as much of the non-theory regulations direct from one loose-leaf notebook. There weren't any bound volumes in 1956 and my city didn't have a store carrying the Q&A books needed. Back then the 'Q&A' books were published for just about every civilian license. Also, the FCC regulations were not extensive back then. Today a copy of Title 47, Code of Federal Regulations, can be purchased for a modest sum from the US Government Printing Office...all FIVE volumes of it (Part 97 for amateur radio is in the 5th volume). I didn't need any theory on transmitters in that year, I'd already had three solid years of very hands-on repairing and operation of HF SSB and Class-C transmitters, exciters (for FSK TTY), test equipment, and so forth. Had to draw and explain two schematics at the FCC Field Office in Chicago, 90 miles away. Took the train both ways (no car yet) and never took off my shoes...couldn't walk barefoot through the snow uphill both ways to take that test (it was a clear day, no snow).
The second test was the audacious 'Extra out of the box' test that happened almost on the 51st anniversary of my taking the First 'Phone. Didn't walk barefoot through snow for that one, either, drove our paid-for-with-cash 2005 Chevvy Malibu a whole mile to the amateur test site at a former firehouse on the 25th of February, 2007. After 54 years of working as a Pro in the electronics industry I really didn't think I NEEDED any 'lifelong education' enough to pass a test. But, nobody's fool, I had downloaded the entire Question Pools from www.ncvec.org and printed them out, reviewed all of them, especially the non-theory regulations. Bear in mind that I'd also worked in civil aviation radio so I'd kept current in that radio service Part, Public Land Mobile Radio Service had been worked at, also Broadcasting Radio (now lumped under 'Media' or whatever), plus a whole heap of Military Specifications whose paper tonnage FAR exceeds the whole of Title 47. Having to WORK WITH all that radio stuff makes the file storage in the brain rather full and a review NEEDS to be done just to make sure the file-retrieval is on-subject. No sweat.
On "memorizing" AS IF it is a bad thing: I think that's nonsense. First of all, extremely few current radio amateur hobbyists are EVER going to get into space...unless one has millions of bucks such as Richard Garriott's son did (his own fortune came from some kind of computer software sales or whatever). NASA has the LOCK on space travel. NASA has some astronauts get Technician licenses as part of their general Public Relations effort, NASA's PR, very NOT 'for ham radio.' FCC amateur regulations will change from time to time and some licensed amateurs change their class from time to time, but one does NOT need a massive mental effort to learn and remember things like operating frequencies, where which class can play, and with so and so much power. A little card with jotted notes can suffice for any class license. Unless one changes antennas every few weeks, one doesn't need the 'RF Safety' regulations in wetware either, just refer to the printed rules WHEN it is needed. I've had a valid driver's license since 1950 but haven't stuffed my wetware full of two states' DMV driving regulations; I just review those when periodic motor vehicle tests come up. No problem. The last time I had a driving (actually a parking ticket) infraction was back in 1971, specifically in Camden, NJ, back in 1971.
Yeah, I don't think it is BAD to memorize regulations to pass ANY test. Each time I get an annual physical blood test, I study very hard to pass it. Always have. :-)
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W0GTR: "MYTH: New hams have no experimenting skills."
I think that ought to change to 'Gaseous olde-fahrts have no experimenting skills.' That 160-year-old morse code mode hasn't changed in all that time...except radio substituting for wires by 1896. Really 'needs' experimentation?!?
Myself, I've spent all but three of the last 49 years in Design Engineering or Research and Development projects in industry. Not all amateurs are that fortunate and I understand that but there is NO WAY I will accept KIT ASSEMBLY as 'teaching anything' other than soldering properly or using common hand tools. ESPECIALLY in this day and age when vacuum tubes are so rare they are found only in microwave ovens (magnetrons) and specialty scientific instruments (optical photomultipliers, NODs or Night Observation Devices). I've worked with both of those plus a lot of different vacuum tubes long ago.
...............
W0GTR: "MYTH: Taking code out of the test "dumbed it down.""
AGREE on the MYTH! My thought was that ELIMINATING the code test just removed an archaic BARRIER to a HOBBY radio activity. In the USA it was the LAST radio service that required licensing via code testing to operate transmitters below 30 MHz. CB radio service will be 51 years old soon and was always (as it is known now) on a small sliver of frequencies around 27 MHz. The USA military hasn't required morse code cognition to operate (anywhere it damn well pleases in times of crisis) for over two decades. The ONLY place it IS used is in the M.I., Military Intelligence services and then only for receiving/intercepting signals from the 'other side.' It is passive ELINT.
I think it was so unfortunate that the gaseous olde-fahrts had to STOP PROGRESS and the barrier was removed so LATE. I blame the old fools at the ARRL for halting progress through all their lobbying to keep USA amateur radio as archaic as possible.
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W0GTR: "SPEAKING FOR MYSELF: I once heard someone say, "yeah, these new hams can't fix anything, because they don't have the diagnostic skill." Now, I tremendously respect those among us who can fix transceivers... but I don't awe them. WHEN YOU CAN WRITE SOFTWARE IN JAVA, THEN I WILL AWE YOU!!!"
Hee hee hee hee... HAY! How about self-teaching oneself FORTRAN? [such as from Dan McCracken's excellent book with many examples in FORTRAN IV as I used in 1971] Never had any 'punched cards' when I contributed six programs to RCA Corporate central engineering computer library by 1975. But, in computer circles FORTRAN is now so passe'. :-(
...............
W0GTR: "Maybe all those people who moan about the test being too easy, would be happy if there was a section testing LONG-OVERDUE computer competencies."
Those olde-fahrt dingdongs couldn't understand (or write) a simple "Hello World" program of six lines of code in any computer language. Don't expect too much of them. Leastways, they will all jump on you for saying what you did, shouting "IT AIN'T RADIO!" :-) [right...to them Software Defined Radio is a myth)
...............
W0GTR: "So come on OM, try to remember when you were new. It was a different world then. Newbies can't live up to the standards of the past."
Very very FEW gaseous olde-fahrts can live up to the standard of the PRESENT. I'm not going to retrograde to their standards of the past. Not even if someone actually invents a working time machine. Did H. G. Wells have a call? :-)
Oh, maybe I don't show enough 'courtesy' to the olde-fahrts? They sure haven't shown me much 'courtesy.' It is tailor-made: "they rip what they sew."
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 12, 2009
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Mail this to a friend!
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The old bitter sourpuss N4TTS blathered while his dentures slipped:
Joe, I've seen better flames on a wet match...etc ad nauseam...
KB0TXC (the laughing at the OLD FART) responds:
Trust me you OLD CONSTIPATED FART, you have absolutely no bearing on me or my life or anything else that is important in this world. Go play with your key or something... No one cares about you or your 'status' or your 20WPM extra or anything else about you. You have been left behind the times, dear.
YOU ARE JUST A BITTER OLD FART AND I LAUGH AT YOU AS DO MANY OTHERS!
I have no respect for you or anything you say, and I sure as hell hope that you never do respond to me on the air, because I will simply turn the big knob and ignore you as well.
As far as intelligence is concerned, I doubt that you come close to the IQ of my cat, let alone me, pal.
As I said pops, go take a Viagra. As nasty as you are, you obviously need it.
KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by QRZDXR2 on March 13, 2009
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Mail this to a friend!
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W4HIJ on March 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
QRZDXR2 wrote:
And your point being...
Welcome to ham radio...quit whining
And here we have the perfect example of a bitter old diseased narrow minded fool!
Actually I don't know how old this gent( and I use the term loosely) is but he's exactly the type we are talking about here. How nice of him to come here so we would have an example of just the attitude the original poster was talking about.
Don't ya'll get it? Everything that he says is designed to try and incite and provoke and get under your skin. He enjoys it when you pay attention to him and you let him know something he said bothers you.
I'm sure he's enjoying being singled out right now even though it's for ridicule.
The best thing we can do is IGNORE these idiots.
Their bitterness and negativity will eventually be the death of them.
73,
Michael
------------------------------------------------
No Michael more to the point your hurt and you really know what I said was true. You Just can't stand the truth can you. Face it your a newbie and you got your third leg in a knott because you really can't say much other than what the parrot has already.
I feel sorry for you michael your demented idea of reality is exactly what other say. If they are not to your liking your spiteful and derogatory towards them.
Again YOU can't stand the truth... so quit whining and grow up. Telling someone else what they are or arn't is like really showing your ego off. You jump in here dump your load and then think others are going to respect you... don't think so. Your sicker mentally than the rest of the pack. Saddly your probably sitting at home in your T shirt and underware (which havn't been washed for 2 weeks now. Radio set up on a carboard table, chair from the kitchen which has old dirty pots and pans stacked up in the sink and burnt stuff on the stove from the last time you open a fresh can of dog food. Ahh your stroking your dog.. your only friend.. while Sitting in front of the 2 meter listening to the latest bob and jerry show. Jumping in now and again between drags on the cig. to harrass Jerry with cutting comments. what fun... Safe you think not using your ID. Typical CB person that came to ham radio with a full ashtray of cig butts, empty bottle of JW and beer cans all over the room stacked on piles of cloths and junk which hasn't seen a cleaning in what...4 years now. Clean up your act dude before you go trying to smear someone else. Oh gee we forgot to mention you live in a poor run down trailer park too. Isn't the're a word for people like you?
Ahhh yes the joy of ham radio brings out the images of splender and the social elete's
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 13, 2009
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Mail this to a friend!
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KB0TXC writes: "Then there is Jim N2EY who has been an amateur radio operator for years and years."
42 years come October 12 of this year.
KB0TXC: "He probably knows the insides of the old hollowstate gear that I love so much better than most amateur ops (definitely including me) left today do."
Possibly; there's a lot to know, old or new. But I'm not limited to hollow-state stuff.
KB0TXC: "I have a good feeling that Jim knows the FCC rules and regs better than some at the ARRL (That I belong to and lovingly refer to as the Newington knitting club) do as well as knowing and practicing the best of the amateur operating procedures."
TNX
KB0TXC: "However, he disagrees with me on several issues, specifically labor and political issues. That is OK too. Again, I might not agree, but I really respect his knowledge, his ability and his willingness to intelligently communicate with me."
The feeling is mutual, Joe.
KB0TXC: "He is also a 20+ WPM CW operator, but he has never used that as a means belittle me as I am a no-code operator."
No-code *test* operator.
KB0TXC: "He is not a CW 'old fart' by any stretch."
TNX AGN!
A couple of points:
1) It's not just the code test. For the past 30 years or so, FCC has been reducing the written test requirements too. Some folks look at the current tests and compare them to the tests and test methods of 40-50+ years ago for the same license and think "that's easy!" And maybe they are "easier", from the point of view of somebody who's been a ham for decades.
Looking at both the current exams and the study guides of old times, one big difference I note is that the old exams focused on a few subjects in depth, while the current exams cover a lot more subjects but not in much depth at all. For example, the old exams had almost nothing about receivers or antennas, but a lot about power supplies, oscillators, eliminating spurious emissions from transmitters, and various techniques of staying in the band.
2) With rare exceptions, it's not the newcomers who pushed for changes to the tests and test methods; it's the FCC. And they did it to save money. Blame *them*!
3) In any activity that has so much diversity, there will be disagreements and competition for scarce resources. But we really are all in this together, and if we don't act like it, we'll all be worse off.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 13, 2009
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AF6AY writes: "I have yet to find a REAL 'Elmer.'"
Well, Len, considering how you behave towards anyone who disagrees with you about anything, that's not surprising.
AF6AY: "What is there that requires all that mentoring about operating a radio? Really?"
Quite a bit, really. There are also things like how to set up a station, how to interpret what's heard on the air, how to turn generalities into specifics.
Elmering takes many forms, too. A posting to a website or reflector that helps someone is as much Elmering as being there in person.
AF6AY: "I've taken (and passed on first try) just two FCC top-of-the-line licenses. The first was a First 'Phone (Commercial) in 1956. I had just been released from the US Army and thought it a good thing to get a commercial license. The Army NEVER taught us civilian regulatory agency rules"
But they did teach you a lot of radio and electronics theory and practice.
AF6AY: "The second test was the audacious 'Extra out of the box' test"
Which you had said you were going for more than seven years earlier (Jan 19, 2000, to be exact).
AF6AY: "NASA has the LOCK on space travel."
The Russians might dispute that...
AF6AY: "NASA has some astronauts get Technician licenses as part of their general Public Relations effort, NASA's PR, very NOT 'for ham radio.'"
Sure it's for ham radio.
AF6AY: "I think that ought to change to 'Gaseous olde-fahrts have no experimenting skills.' That 160-year-old morse code mode hasn't changed in all that time...except radio substituting for wires by 1896. Really 'needs' experimentation?!? "
Actually, the code used on radio isn't the code used on wires. And the experimentation is in what can be done with Morse Code on radio.
AF6AY: "there is NO WAY I will accept KIT ASSEMBLY as 'teaching anything' other than soldering properly or using common hand tools."
Well, you're just wrong about that, Len.
AF6AY: "ELIMINATING the code test just removed an archaic BARRIER to a HOBBY radio activity."
Yet when that alleged BARRIER was removed, we didn't see lots more new hams. So it really wasn't much of a BARRIER at all.
AF6AY: "In the USA it was the LAST radio service that required licensing via code testing to operate transmitters below 30 MHz."
So what? Amateurs still use Morse Code.
AF6AY: "CB radio service will be 51 years old soon and was always (as it is known now) on a small sliver of frequencies around 27 MHz."
You've forgotten UHF cb, begun in 1948, which has been reborn as FRS/GMRS.
Do you think 27 MHz cb is a good example for amateur radio to follow?
AF6AY: "Very very FEW gaseous olde-fahrts can live up to the standard of the PRESENT."
How do you know, Len?
AF6AY: "Oh, maybe I don't show enough 'courtesy' to the olde-fahrts? They sure haven't shown me much 'courtesy.'"
Considering how you behave online, why should anyone?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W3KFQ on March 13, 2009
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A message to all those who believe that all new licencees are somehow not up to the mark....
There are many operators like myself, who took thier code tests years ago..(the 60's)..and did not renew thier licence, or life changes forced them into new directions, many things happen to all of us over the years.
I've said this before, and will repeat it here, if your so concerned..(both sides of this arguement) then do your code test over, unofficially,and pass it at 15 or 20 wpm! Get it notorized.
Same with the General or extra class test, do the old one, pass it, and with your new licence..get on with your life.
I had the experience of being a novice way back when, and learned a lot from it. Some of us have paid our dues, and should help those less fortunate who can't seem to get a litle help from the brotherhood.
Robert
W3KFQ
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W3WN on March 13, 2009
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Rick N6NKN said:
I must say. eHam does seem to bring out the best in people. LOL
-------------------
Nah. If you REALLY want to view the cream of the crop, look over some of the forums on QRZ.COM; they make this stuff look pretty tame.
Like this ham from the 6th call area (not you!) who declared a ham from the 3rd call area a lid, because a net in the 6th call area allegedly got QRM'd during a major contest... by a contester in the 6th call area. [But then, he's a Marine, or so he says; so, he doesn't have to apologize when he makes a mistake, because that would have to acknowledge that he made a mistake, and we all know that the Marines never make mistakes].
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W1JAU on March 13, 2009
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The writer isn't too far off base. I have encountered a number of senior citizens, former young guns themselves that are part of a generation that are less than accepting to change within the hobby and feel the bands are the exclusive right of anyone licensed before 1970 anyone else can stuff it and gosh for bid you're a no code licensee I sure do feel bad for you guys! This is unfortunate because it exists on every level of the hobby. I have seen it at the club level and conventions too. This is too bad. Instead of promoting membership, encouraging skill development and furthering the hobby along there are indeed a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone. Exclusivity breeds contempt and not usually by fellow hams more often than not by government agencies that want to take back bands and reallocate them for commmercial use. Maybe its already too late. Too many elmers sitting on their butts pining for the good old days and too few new hams to make much of a difference.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 13, 2009
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Just a thought, some of these comments are longer than the original article. I don't know about others, but I don't bother reading them. If they were more coherent it wouldn't be so bad. But with quotes three levels deep, improper sentence structure and punctuation and bad spelling I get a headache form it. After all that, I loose any concept as to what is attempted to be communicated.
Please, STOP.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 13, 2009
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Just a thought, some of these comments are longer than the original article. I don't know about others, but I don't bother reading them. If they were more coherent it wouldn't be so bad. But with quotes three levels deep, improper sentence structure and punctuation and bad spelling I get a headache form it. After all that, I loose any concept as to what is attempted to be communicated.
Please, STOP.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC0SHZ on March 13, 2009
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I used to get bugged when people did that to me. Then I began to notice that the Hams that did it to me were not well liked themselves and have snobbed their way into a corner they can't get out of.
Many of them are old and beat down, they may have spent $10K on their radio station over the years, but they could sell it all on Ebay for about $800 (if they could get a taker for that antenna tower that is filling their back yard.)
I started to realize that the way around some of these jerks was to find some people who were good folks and hang with them to the exclusion of the jerks. This makes me happier, gives me access to the Elmers that I need, and by and large, life works better.
So recognize that many of these jokers are pitiable and take their comments for what they are, wind on the buffalo grass.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N6BIZ on March 13, 2009
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welcome to ham radio just wait till the sun starts making some spots youll talk to europe in the morning and the pacific in the evening ...on 10 mtrs in a car with a stick for an antenna i have been a ham since '63 and love it more as the years pass ...and dont concern youself with some arrogant adam henrys on the bands have fun om
gary n6biz las vegas nv for now
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 13, 2009
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Oh this keeps getting better.
Those of us who have paid our dues..................
Listen fellow licensed ham operators. Your license is no better than someone who got theirs two minutes ago, period.
And as for paying their dues, there are no dues, its a hobby and there is no fee..........ha.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 13, 2009
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And as far as a license goes, no one should be able to get one until they get the corn cobb out of their port hole.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 13, 2009
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Wow, some of these are long..........I don't read those either, get to the point guys.
The times are ah changin.........change with them or for crying out loud go to the nursing home.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 13, 2009
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You know what I like.......when people copy and paste entire post and then post twice as much telling the person how wrong they are.
Someone please copy and paste me and tell me my spelling is wrong.............................argh.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 13, 2009
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Oh let me try.............
I shot the first shot at the civil war, have wooden teeth, walked up hill 20 miles to and from school, had to kill my supper with a wire hanger.....that I made myself....... raised all 20 of my younger brothers and sisters, lived in a shoe, have wrinkles in my wrinkles, have to make my own depends out of klenex and I am so, so much more deserving of everything in life, because I am, thats why, and I am going to use this forum to tell everyone of my accomplishments and some fake ones even........me me me me me and me.
This is like laugh in, I swear...........jackasses, and you know who you are.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 13, 2009
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WA4KGM lectured some 'friendly' advice on 12 Mar 09:
"I'm 63, with some "back-in-the-day" experience as a radio/radar repair tech. After a 30+ year absence I recently got into ham radio as an "extra-out-of-the-box." That's much worse than being merely a "new ham." Have I taken flack over that? Absolutely, but never of the sort that caused me to consider quitting ham radio."
I've taken flack much worse just for NOT having expressed either a passion for amateur radio and CERTAINLY for NO love of morse. Then after getting my license (without asking any of the 'Four Morsemen of the Apocalypse' on rec.radio.amateur.policy), they made it sound like an evil character flaw that "I didn't do it sooner." Ptui.
..............
WA4KGM: "Who better to teach me than those who have already been there, done that?"
Who better to keep USA amateur radio in perpetual retrograde?
..............
WA4KGM: "After all (a little radio humor here), many of the "older hams" had to walk 25 miles in a blinding blizzard (uphill both ways) and sit for their exams before unsmiling, unblinking "suits" from the FCC, not friendly, smiling VEs. No coffee, no sticky buns, no head calls, no cell phones, no calculators, no nothing, save their desire for a ticket."
I took and passed my First Class Radiotelephone (Commercial) license doing all of the above in early 1956 at an FCC Field Office 90 miles away by train. No COLEMs then, no VEC, no such thing as a pocket calculator. Do you want me to feel sorry or something? Maybe worship some false idol of morse?
..............
WA4KGM: "They had to beat out code, know enough about radio to draw and explain various electronic circuits, and just generally know a heck of a lot more about this hobby than we newbies. It's worth mentioning that many of those "Older Hams" built their own equipment back then, and some still do, to this day."
They were Gods of Radio as they imply now. I'll ask again, do you want me to feel sorry for one camp or the other? Poor old guys, never HAD to operate or take care of 36 HF transmitters running 1 to 15 KW RF output, then go out off-shift and practice the fine art of killing people. We HAD to do that. It was MY start.
..............
WA4KGM: "Contrast that, if you will, with we newbies."
Kid (you are 11 years my junior), I will never accept being a 'newbie' or a 'know-nothing' with the snarly depreciating condescending emotional baggage attached to that name. I don't give one dingy damn if that upsets some olde-fahrt HOBBYISTS in radio. I've never been considerd that as a Professional for the last half century.
...............
WA4KGM: "Memorize the question pools, pass the exams (no code, no real electronics knowledge), then jump on the net and buy the latest and greatest equipment available. Voila! Instant ham radio operator extraordinaire, at a K and a half. No wonder they're a bit pissed."
WHO is upset? The olde-fahrts? Too honking bad for them.
...............
WA4KGM: "You said "I am disturbed at the less than enthusatic welcome that I have received from many of the 'Older Hams'" You were expecting, perhaps, a brass band? The "Older Hams," as you describe them, require that you prove yourself as an operator, nothing more, or less. That, my ham friend, is on you..."
Oh, the LAW says I or any other newcomer MUST "prove yourself as an operator?" NO, it does NOT. The only camp that tries that is the OLDE-FAHRTS who insist on keeping the standards and practices of the 1930s into this new millennium. A bunch of radio HOBBYISTS trying vainly to be Professional Amateurs, a Living Museum of Ancient Radio skills.
................
WA4KGM: "There's a lot to be learned from the crusty old curmudgeons."
Yes, there is...DON'T BE LIKE THEM! I've seen more of those than you have, kid. I pray to God I will never get that bad.
................
WA4KGM: "I find it interesting that after only a year and a half you have "evaluated" ham radio and solicited criticism of a hobby that has been around for quite some time, before yours or mine, and will hopefully outlive us both."
Kid, 'radio' as a communications medium has only been around about 112 1/2 years. Amateur radio, as defined by the ITU, is a de facto HOBBY radio activity. Don't give us this 'seniority' paternalistic LECTURE crap. Is Terry Deuel, a 'newbie' who don' know nuttin? He is about 52. He is a human male who has been around this Earth for a while.
................
WA4KGM: "Exhibit good operating practice, focus on learning how to use your equipment effectively, how and why it works, and find your niche."
In other words, become PROFESSIONAL Amateurs?
................
WA4KGM: "If you don't like the "old hams," avoid them. You can even go digital, and avoid CW and/or phone."
How very condescending of you. I've long since used modes and modulations NOT PERMITTED in USA amateur radio. But, of course, that wasn't what the olde-fahrts called "real radio," the kind of the 1930s (now coming up on 70 years ago). For what it is worth, kid, I've already used 'data' and 'digital' and even DESIGNED systems that did that. But NOT in USA amateur radio because so very little of that is permitted by law.
Kid, I have some 'disposable cash' that I WORKED for. IN radio, professional radio. Are you going to INSIST that I 'build my own equipment' or something because some crybaby kids who are at least 10 years younger than I insist must be done to 'prove something to the ham community?!? BS. I bought a whole HF through 2m station, two antennas, with MY budget. I could afford it five years ago. So what if that gets some 'poor' hams all worked up? This country isn't a socialist state where everyone gets the 'same according to their needs.' NOBODY, repeat NOBODY *gave* me any money in my life. I resent the hell out of all the olde-fahrtism present that says WE haven't earned anything.
.................
WA4KGM: "The "older hams" are nothing more, or less, than a national treasure."
Kid, then start treating us 'treasures' better. I am a LEGAL licensed Amateur Extra USA radio operator. The only time I've been a Real ham is when I was in an improv comedy troupe (for kicks) in a cabaret show. The only 'radio' involved was a wireless microphone. I've never had to use morse code in any of my past 56 years as a Pro IN radio of any kind and don't intend to start now. If that upsets your treasure-hunting 'necessity' then go write the FCC Enforcement Bureau and complain. You can write the ARRL, too, but it won't matter to me...I'm not renewing my mambership beyond the end of March 2009.
.................
WA4KGM: "Personality and political issues aside, if this hobby is not for you, then begone."
You first, kid..."women and children first." Remember, you are 11 years younger than me. :-)
.................
WA4KGM: "All said and done, welcome to ham radio."
Wow, with 'ham friends' like that, who needs enemies? USA amateur radio has its very own 'denied territory.'
AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 13, 2009
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W3KFQ proposes the Impossible Dream on 13 Mar 09:
"I've said this before, and will repeat it here, if your so concerned..(both sides of this arguement) then do your code test over, unofficially,and pass it at 15 or 20 wpm! Get it notorized."
What is the purpose OR the legality of that?
"Same with the General or extra class test, do the old one, pass it, and with your new licence..get on with your life."
WHO has those 'old tests?' They won't apply to any present license under legitimate law.
WHY is there this 'need' to take morse code tests? I don't see it as valid law. The FCC decided that by the 19 December 2006 release of Report & Order 06-178.
If you insist on keeping the old regulations ad infinitum, then I would suggest to you to invent (or help invent) a Time Machine. With one of those (and a reprieve of principles of causality) all the olde-tymers can go back to olden days and be content with amateur radio circa pre-1941.
Have a nice trip...
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 13, 2009
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KB0TXC wrote on March 12, 2009:
"Len AF6AY (Hope that I got that right) is an old time electronic comms guy from the military during a time when there were no satellites, no digital error checking, when reception depended upon how well one could tune a rack mounted (actually a huge number of rack mounted) tube receivers, when things such as understanding ionospheric propagation had to be as familiar as the back of your hand, when transmission powers could instantly kill you yet you had to work on the transmitters 'hot' sometimes...the list is endless."
Let me clarify a few points there, Joe. In the worldwide net of US Army radio stations of the 1940s through the 1960s, Net Control officers from the Chief Signal Officer on down determined the frequencies in use, not the enlisted grunts despite having Master Sergeant ratings as 'lifers.' None of us enlisted types 'had to know propagation like the back of our hand.' We HAD to know how to QSY NOW, not a few minutes later, at our leisure. Keeping a circuit 'UP' (running, ready for any message relay) was prime. It makes sense from a large net statndpoint that had the capability of reconfiguring its network structure at any time required one central authority on frequencies. By 1948 the general principles and behavior of the ionosphere was known well enough to plan HF frequency use well ahead of time.
Consider that each major radio circuit in the Army net had the capability for two voice channels and eight TTY channels in commeercial SSB format. That means 480 characters per second throughput just on teleprinter. Four radio circuits at ADA used time-division multiplexing to carry 4 TTY channels simultaneously. That was 240 characters per second throughput using FSK at 850 Hz 'spread' (separation of Mark and Space). When a third-largest station in the worldwide net carried 250K messages per MONTH, it was our responsibility to keep ALL circuits as open as possible. WAR (Washington Army Radio) at Fort Detrick, MD, had a throughput of about a million messages per month...but they were also the central hub of Army communications.
That was back at the beginning 1950s and Army radio was rockbound in frequency. There were no synthesizers of any kind in-use commercially or in the military for transmitters. There was no such thing as 'transistorized' anything in heavy-duty communications until towards the end of the 1950s, after my active duty time.
The Receiver Site at Camp Owada (NNW of Tokyo) did it slightly differently. It was shared with the USAF, manned by both USA and USAF personnel on a cooperative basis. Transmitters Site was Army-only. Receivers had the option of using manually-tuned, stable (mostly Collins equipment) receivers along with antenna multicouplers to allow space-diversity reception of just about every incoming radio circuit. Multicouplers allowed two rhombics to be used by up to eight receivers, pairs having automatic majority-vote selection. In addition, a typical SSB converter could automatically select which tone pairs of TTY would be fully converted as current loops outgoing to the torn-tape relay control. Receivers by themselves were the immediate predecessor of the R-390 (R-388?) although the R-390s were slowly being delivered for use at ADA's Receiver Site in 1955. I was never assigned to Receivers, just the old and new Transmitter Sites, but did visit them for other purposes from time to time. One part of Receivers was Frequency Standards. 'Standards' had two men on each shift and used a late-1940s General Radio Frequency Standard to check EACH and every radio transmitter frequency after any Transmitter QSY order. ADA Control, Transmitters, and Standards were all on the same TTY Order Wire and all orders, responses, or data was carried simultaneously at all three places.
On any Control command via TTY to QSY, Transmitters would have three personnel immediately doing the QSY. One would fetch the Exciter quartz crystal from the six-foot high floor standing warming cabinet and plug that into the back of the FSK Exciter; that would start the chain of events. Another guy would be presetting the transmitter itself to already-determined control settings, waiting for the exciter to supply the frequency. Once the exciter was Up, the usual peak-and-dip was done to put RF out the antenna. Meanwhile, 'Standards' 30 miles away would be setting up the exact Mark frequency on their GR Frequency Standard and waiting for the carrier to come on. Standards' receiver audio was looped back to Transmitters. Once the transmitter was trimmed, the first guy would be back around to the front of the Exciter racks and would set Mark frequency by zero-beat, no TTY keying yet. The third guy, usually the Trick Chief, would be at the Order Wire, monitoring the other two. When the first one had the Mark zeroed-in, he would call out "Fox Test" and the Trick Chief would request that from Control. Control responded by patching in the automatic 'quick brown fox' sentence and ID (there were three fox-test generators at ADA in the Carrier room). That keying would enable setting the Space frequency using amplified audio sent by Standards. ADA Transmitters had a tuning-fork 850 cycle oscillator so that we would do an audio heterodyne to set the 'spread' (difference between Mark and Space). Note: All spreads were 850 Hz then, by order; receiving convertes were optimized for that. When we thought that setting was good, we gave Standards a go-ahead to check. They would and tell us any deviation from exact frequency over the Order-Wire. Control would be monitoring all that and, if acceptible, would release the radio circuit from QSY standby to traffic from the huge torn-tape relay room. Average QSY at the time was about 2 minutes and all three Sites had written confirmation of the whole thing. Very rarely would we need 3 minutes. Control had their own Order-Wires to the circuit other end (for SSB, both voice and TTY) so they could check everything. It was interesting to pick up a telephone handset at Control and be instantly talking to a counterpart in San Francisco, Honolulu, or Seattle from Tokyo; no dialing, just talk.
SSB transmitters also used quartz crystal control but the Western Electric LD-T2s were also servo tuned to any of 10 preset frequencies. 30 second QSYs there, but Standards checked their pilot carrier frequencies and reported that on the Order-Wire. A SSB QSY was completed in a minute, again all communications identical and written at three different locations. Note: All frequencies were called out by NAMES, not by number. That was to avoid possible number interchange, never for secrecy. Korea-bound transmit frequencies were given beer names. :-) Each 8-hour shift would do 6 to 14 QSYs depending on propagation conditions, at least 30 transmitters Up at any one time (usually 34 out of the 36).
Fast? No. Compared to 1 Hz resolution of built-in synthesizers of today it seems slow. But it was fast enough by 1950 standards involving reliable 24/7 operation at fixed locations and paths.
Main AC primary power demand meter at the old site stood at areound 350 KWe. That meant that at least 150 KW of RF was floating Out There. It would not have been acceptible under modern so-called 'standards of health in radiation' but there was no outcry from the medical community at the time, either. The biggest headache was the variability of Japanese commercial electric power. It might suddenly disappear or drop from 50 cycles to 47. We had all necessary diesel-electric sets to supply AC power but Standards HAD to check every transmit frequency all over again on a power outage and report that on the Order Wire while we had to check every transmitter for proper tuning. The new Transmitter Site (started operating 1954) was designed for self-contained AC primary power using 2-on, 2-standby 300 KWe motor-generator sets in their own building. Each MG set used 16-cylinder marine diesels so it was noisy in that place 24/7. :-)
No, NONE of such things apply DIRECTLY to amateur radio operation. It is just an example of what I experienced BEGINNING in HF communications as a Professional (we did get paid...I remember $154 a month as an E-5 with overseas allowance. In 1954 that wasn't bad since we also had comforts of 3 hots and a cot. Sutecki, ne? :-)
...................
KB0TXC: "I admire that and respect that of him. Yet Len disagrees with my premise that name of our space agency NASA really stands for Never A Straight Answer, and that there have been..."
Well, I'm not caring about any 'Area 51' stories, either. I've HAD to visit Nellis AFB but have never seen an alien being there...not even a MARS man. <shrug>
There was a running gag in the electronics industry that the venerable 'H-P' logo stood for "Highest Price" but that would be a disservice to their accuracy and reliability. Bill and Dave done good in the electronics industry. Palo Alto wasn't Benton Harbor.
.................
KB0TXC: "No, I usually react to those posts with a few comments, but N4TTS really is an old, bitter sourpuss whose spirit has the potential to drive off new and prospective amateur radio operators."
Those of us who are called good-for-nothing 'newbies' and 'know-nothings' are all supposed to be silent and worshipful while these 'elderly' Hero Hams trod all over us? Not I, senor. That sort of petty attitude might be fine for their concept of Professional Amateurs but I see it as just childlike amateur professionalism more suited to junior high school politics of the schoolyard. It's been a long time for me since high school and I get less and less interested in this so-called hobby ruled by a bunch of dysfunctional self-proclaimed 'leaders' trying to retrograde USA amateur radio as much as possible with outdated requirements for entry. This activity is a HOBBY. It isn't life itself. To rational beings.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 13, 2009
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KC2EXW posted on 13 Mar 09:
"The writer isn't too far off base. I have encountered a number of senior citizens, former young guns themselves that are part of a generation that are less than accepting to change within the hobby and feel the bands are the exclusive right of anyone licensed before 1970 anyone else can stuff it and gosh for bid you're a no code licensee I sure do feel bad for you guys!"
No need to feel sorry for some of us no-code-test licensees. I've lived long enough to encounter too many aging, mentally-retrograde white males for my liking. I pray more often that I NOT ever get like they are. It is a disgusting sight to me. Coming from an electronics industry that IS progressive, I daresay those old fogies couldn't hack it in the industry with new ideas about anything.
KC2EXW: "This is unfortunate because it exists on every level of the hobby. I have seen it at the club level and conventions too. This is too bad. Instead of promoting membership, encouraging skill development and furthering the hobby along there are indeed a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone."
Yes, but the Club is usually content with itself and feels comfortable doing the same thing year after year, members giving each other high-fives for 'accomplishment for the good of ham radio.' ???
KC2EXW: "Exclusivity breeds contempt and not usually by fellow hams more often than not by government agencies that want to take back bands and reallocate them for commmercial use. Maybe its already too late."
The Bands most talked about on forums exist in the HF spectrum. For all intents and purposes the users of HF in other radio services are already fixed, including broadcasting. There doesn't appear to be any desire by any other radio services to covet HF or grab bandspace. One can check out the last five years of releases at the FCC website (including the International Bureau) and see that. I just don't see any inkling that the FCC would want to change USA allocations on HF, not even to increase CB (which needs expansion for truckers).
The main action on spectrum reassignment is happening ABOVE 30 MHz. Much of that has already happened. Witness the channel assignments for DTV, great heaping gobs of bandspace to be eliminated as part of the DTV switchover in June this year. There have been bids already for the '700 MHz' band and that appears locked-in. Did the ARRL petition for any part of the soon-to-be-vacant TV space? I don't see any.
It really doesn't matter to these olde-tymers who never venture up above 30 MHz. They aren't familiar with it, don't know how to handle it, and don't care about it. Oh, they might 'care' but only as a vehicle to vent personal frustrations on, such as trash-talking any party in power about "taking away 'our' precious bands." Ineffectual gabble that.
Similarly, the olde-tymers aren't rushing out to grab anything below MF. All they've gotten below the AM BC band is an "experimental permit" just above 500 KHz. So, is the EM region around 500 KHz 'experimental' after being used for maritime distress and safety from 1914 to 1993? I really don't think so. But...the ARRL can crow each morning at sunrise, announcing that THEY obtained this precious 'permit' for the 'experimenters' (aging amateurs who have yet to come up with anything new there). Sometimes I get the implication that the ARRL will want to proclaim that THEY invented radio... :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 13, 2009
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TIMEWILLTELL writes: "I shot the first shot at the civil war, have wooden teeth, walked up hill 20 miles to and from school, had to kill my supper with a wire hanger.....that I made myself....... raised all 20 of my younger brothers and sisters, lived in a shoe, have wrinkles in my wrinkles, have to make my own depends out of klenex"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYtYBI6eZ3E
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 13, 2009
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Yes I agree with you. I am a no code extra. I took all my exams in a single day, since other hams couldn't do it, I met with resistance right away at the testing site. Hams have been very discourteous to me also. You have to put up a 200 foot tower with 1.5 kw linear so you can be a big dog and talk over everyone.
Years ago hams were content helping people get on the air. Few people had to be the top dog. It has been very disconcerting for me. My equipment has been sitting in the corner for months now. I was a long time swl but since joining the ham ranks, I don't care to even listen to them any more.
I did have several very interesting and enjoyable discussions with the asian countries on CQ 100. Not the same as radio, but interesting never the less. I think that people in this country need to learn manners, age and experience hasn't helped the bands. I guess too many americans think their license gives them ownership of the spectrum.
I hope you can find a group you can be welcomed into, this means avoid most of 75 meters. I have worked DX and see how many areas of the world I can contact. I ran into a police officer the other day who also turned out to be a ham. Never did find out what he wanted.
73's
Dave
AB9PM
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PRINT YOUR POSTS FOR YOUR STUDENTS TO READ
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by PLANKEYE on March 13, 2009
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As I have stated elsewhere, I am no "newbie" as I have been licensed and active for 14 going on 15 years (god, has it been that long), and some of the most inspiring new amateurs are the kids. I have helped teach several amateur radio classes, and personally Elmered a now fifteen year old to get his license. Once he had his ticket, I made sure that he had a radio and antenna...we built a modified J-pole and I recrystaled an old FM rig for him. (I knew his mother way back when we were in high school) Now his mom is getting into radio as well. I sure as hell hope that when he gets his general, that he will not run into N4TTS...he would probably take up stamp collecting if he did...
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
_________________
Really, if you think about it Joe, you are doing the same thing as all the folks you speak about.
I understand that you don't like the way N4TTS operates his keyboard.
You don't want the young person you are Elmering to work N4TTS on the Air based on his Posts here on E-Ham.
I understand what you are saying Brother.
You just don't.
PLANKEYE
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WA4KCN on March 13, 2009
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WA4KGM lectured some 'friendly' advice on 12 Mar 09:
"I'm 63, with some "back-in-the-day" experience as a radio/radar repair tech. After a 30+ year absence I recently got into ham radio as an "extra-out-of-the-box." That's much worse than being merely a "new ham." Have I taken flack over that? Absolutely, but never of the sort that caused me to consider quitting ham radio."
I've taken flack much worse just for NOT having expressed either a passion for amateur radio and CERTAINLY for NO love of morse. Then after getting my license (without asking any of the 'Four Morsemen of the Apocalypse' on rec.radio.amateur.policy), they made it sound like an evil character flaw that "I didn't do it sooner." Ptui.
WA4KCN - Len it is no evil character flaw being unskilled in the Code. Damned(!) anyone who suggests such! You must however learn the code if you are to live long and prosper within the amateur service. Your own greatest generation simply demands it.
............
WA4KGM: "After all (a little radio humor here), many of the "older hams" had to walk 25 miles in a blinding blizzard (uphill both ways) and sit for their exams before unsmiling, unblinking "suits" from the FCC, not friendly, smiling VEs. No coffee, no sticky buns, no head calls, no cell phones, no calculators, no nothing, save their desire for a ticket."
I took and passed my First Class Radiotelephone (Commercial) license doing all of the above in early 1956 at an FCC Field Office 90 miles away by train. No COLEMs then, no VEC, no such thing as a pocket calculator. Do you want me to feel sorry or something? Maybe worship some false idol of morse?
WA4KCN - Len my most sincere congratulations for passing the difficult First Class Radiotelephone license in early 1956. By regularly citing the fact, i am sure you were releaved or proud or both of the accomplishment. If you desired the top amateur license of the day and could not manage to achieve it cause of the Code, frustration even anger perhaps abounded. For the sake of your health and your family of fellow ham operators who love you despite what they say, please work towards finding 3 examples of how you will specifically plan and execute to deal with the issue of pent up frustration or anger fomenting through the years?
..............
WA4KGM: "They had to beat out code, know enough about radio to draw and explain various electronic circuits, and just generally know a heck of a lot more about this hobby than we newbies. It's worth mentioning that many of those "Older Hams" built their own equipment back then, and some still do, to this day."
They were Gods of Radio as they imply now. I'll ask again, do you want me to feel sorry for one camp or the other? Poor old guys, never HAD to operate or take care of 36 HF transmitters running 1 to 15 KW RF output, then go out off-shift and practice the fine art of killing people. We HAD to do that. It was MY start.
WA4KCN - Len's job sounded very dangerous. I applaude your bravery and your heroic acts. Anyone impuneing your accomplishments should be thrashed 12 times. Jealousy is the nature of a loser. As there were great radio men in and out amateur radio.
..............
WA4KGM: "Contrast that, if you will, with we newbies."
Kid (you are 11 years my junior), I will never accept being a 'newbie' or a 'know-nothing' with the snarly depreciating condescending emotional baggage attached to that name. I don't give one dingy damn if that upsets some olde-fahrt HOBBYISTS in radio. I've never been considerd that as a Professional for the last half century.
WA4KCN - Well there is no getting around the label of new in any field of endevor. Len is new to amateur radio but experienced in professional radio. The label would be unimportant if your personal enemy of pride were to be defeated once and for all. Your enemy has a plan designed for your continued struggles with his primary tool being the old man of pride. Len I have so much love in my heart for you I wish you good luck and much more enjoyment in amateur radio.
...............
WA4KGM: "You said "I am disturbed at the less than enthusatic welcome that I have received from many of the 'Older Hams'" You were expecting, perhaps, a brass band? The "Older Hams," as you describe them, require that you prove yourself as an operator, nothing more, or less. That, my ham friend, is on you..."
Oh, the LAW says I or any other newcomer MUST "prove yourself as an operator?" NO, it does NOT. The only camp that tries that is the OLDE-FAHRTS who insist on keeping the standards and practices of the 1930s into this new millennium. A bunch of radio HOBBYISTS trying vainly to be Professional Amateurs, a Living Museum of Ancient Radio skills.
WA4KCN - Most everyone who has ventured out of their personal comfort zone understands new comers prior to being accepted must earn acceptance. Should the new person desire acceptance a winner will accept inclusion as a challenge and work toward acceptance. If acceptance is desired within the group a prideful loser will war against the group.
................
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WA4KGM: "Exhibit good operating practice, focus on learning how to use your equipment effectively, how and why it works, and find your niche."
In other words, become PROFESSIONAL Amateurs?
WA4KCN - One should do their very best! Anger and more frustration.
................
WA4KGM: "If you don't like the "old hams," avoid them. You can even go digital, and avoid CW and/or phone."
Kid, I have some 'disposable cash' that I WORKED for. IN radio, professional radio. Are you going to INSIST that I 'build my own equipment' or something because some crybaby kids who are at least 10 years younger than I insist must be done to 'prove something to the ham community?!? BS. I bought a whole HF through 2m station, two antennas, with MY budget. I could afford it five years ago. So what if that gets some 'poor' hams all worked up? This country isn't a socialist state where everyone gets the 'same according to their needs.' NOBODY, repeat NOBODY *gave* me any money in my life. I resent the hell out of all the olde-fahrtism present that says WE haven't earned anything.
WA4KCN - Len it is devistating the way you allow the hams you speak of to control you and your emotions. It is the ultimate insult going far beyond teasing you for not learning Code. Why give them such power over your emotions? Pride has got you.
73 Russ
WA4KCN
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RE: PRINT YOUR POSTS FOR YOUR STUDENTS TO READ
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by KB0TXC on March 14, 2009
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Plank-AI posted:
Really, if you think about it Joe, you are doing the same thing as all the folks you speak about.
I understand that you don't like the way N4TTS operates his keyboard.
You don't want the young person you are Elmering to work N4TTS on the Air based on his Posts here on E-Ham.
I understand what you are saying Brother.
You just don't.
PLANKEYE
KB0TXC (the amused) responds:
Ah, the plank-AI box must have been re-booted.
Dear me, Plank -AI, you do tend to over do the attempts at cleverness. What I write here on this silly e-ham forums is absolutely nothing compared to the green vitriol that drips from my pen (keyboard, actually) when I write about the injustices done to children and families around the world in the name of 'globalism', the sex-trade, or national security, but that is neither here nor there. Since that topic is not related to amateur radio, I doubt that more than a few here would be interested. Oh, by the way, when I do speak or write about those topics in whatever forum (not an internet forum), I do not do so on the wing, so to speak, but with time and effort to make sure that my syntaxt, grammar, sentence structure and context are exemplary. What I post here is not written like that, and I really do not need anybodys little sanctimonious comments about it either.
Actually, believe it or not, you do not even come close to pissing me off, even when you falsly acuse me of being a 'know it all', etc etc.
You actually remind me of in a way of an irritating child that knows how to push their parents buttons, or that pesky undergrad that got out of high school a year early and likes to try to pull an academic 'quick change artist' move on his profs.
No, there is no bitterness or venom on my part directed at you, just simple irritation. After all, a rational person cannot be angry with an object...or server box, such as the Plank-AI program runs upon.
Now that constipated OLD FART N4TTS, on the other hand, he is a real dark, venomous spirit. Nasty, mean, hate filled OLD FART who is bitter with life because life has passed him over. All he has left in life is a yellowing copy of an old extra ticket and nothing else other than his hate. Sorry, I have to laugh at that, otherwise his hate germs might get on me. I have little time for those OLD HATE FILLED, VIAGRA ADDICT FARTS, and I will give to them as I get. He reminds me in a way of an old "ham" (SK for decades) whose call I cannot remember. He used to call CQ with the arrogant suffix "no lids, kids or space cadets, class A operators only". That must have been lovely. Unfortunately, it seems that there was no one with the balls back then to tell him to go do something crude with himself. This of course was long before my time, so I am only going on what I have read, but if it is not an urban legend, as I understand it, that OLD FART was pissed off that someone else out gunned him during a contest, so the next day climbed his tower to adjust his beam and had a heart attack up there and died. From what I understand, it took all day for the proper authorities to haul his bloated carcas down from the tower! How fitting...it is almost like a tribute..."Here impaled upon this tower is the great (name unknown) who was the bestest 'ham' radio man around and who everyone else must now wallow in front of with respect and admiration because Christ only knows that he had to walk in a driving snow storm ten miles to take his FCC test in front of steely eyed officials...etc and etc.
Just like that old Depends posterchild N4TTS.
Now back to you...
Plank-AI, I have posted nothing er, NOTHING, that I am ashamed of nor that I feel that I have to apologize for on this forum. You act as if you are the great "respectometer" of something, I guess this forum or obstesibly amateur radio. Go ahead, continue to think it, and I shall not care. I happen to have many oppinions on many different things besides amateur radio. I have studied many different things, and am interested in many different things. The day I quit learning something new upon this planet is the day that my spirit goes to the hall of weighing. And if I were to never operate a radio again, I might be a litte disappointed, but I sure as Hell would not be broken.
You state that I do not understand.
Yes, my little butterfly, I do understand. I understand hate filled arse holes that like to belittle other folks because they did not have to go through the same rites of passage that they themselves had to. Bitter old men (a few women folk too, but not nearly so often) that have few if any friends left, no libido, testosterone, social skills nor much time left. These bitter old men hate anyone that is younger and still have those above things, or even those of their own generation who have not sucumbed to the bitterness that they themselves have. I detest their dark, mean spirits that have become the hiding places for foul little demons. And I am not quiet, generous or too terribley concerned about their feelings when I interact with them. This mean spirit is not exclusive to amateur radio OFs, either. I could tell some stories about what goes on in the academy that would make this nonsense look insipid.
I also understand other folks that make themselves feel important somehow by critiquing everyone elses' thoughts, motives, statements and actions, especially from behind the safety of a pseudonyme. Those folk I do not really detest, nor even really have bad feelings about (talkin about you here, P-AI) except when they become extra obnoxious, then those feelings are fleeting and as I remember that I am dealing with a little mousey that is hiding from the (perceived) big bad kitty that is herself simply looking for a nice place to snooze. When I remember this fact, those irritated feelings disappear as the smoke from the altar.
I do not care one way or the other my delicate little butterfly, if you wish to try to make me feel somehow wrong in expressing my feelings thoughts or ideas because you (as the resident 'respectometer') do not think that I should. I frankly will not sucumb to the little insinuated threat that no one will talk to me on the bands because I post my feelings here. There are thousands and thousands that will converse with me, who care less what I post on this forum. And as far as that bitter OLD FART N4TTS is concerned, he is the one doing ME a favor by not talking with ME, as I have absolutely no wish ever to speak with him. I don't want his nasty germs, HI!
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 14, 2009
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AF6AY writes: (after a long description of a military radio installation of more than 50 years ago):
"No, NONE of such things apply DIRECTLY to amateur radio operation."
Then why bring it up, Len?
AF6AY: "It is just an example of what I experienced BEGINNING in HF communications as a Professional (we did get paid...I remember $154 a month as an E-5 with overseas allowance. In 1954 that wasn't bad since we also had comforts of 3 hots and a cot."
There's more to it than that.
Everything you needed to do the job was provided for you by the Army. The rigs themselves, spare parts, test equipment, manuals, training, etc. Also living quarters, food, clothing, medical/dental care, etc. That $154/month works out to about $2000/month in today's dollars. Which isn't much until one remembers that you didn't pay for necessities from it.
And you didn't do the job alone; you were part of a large team of trained specialists.
Now you will probably go off on a rant about how someone who supposedly "never served" can't know what it's like. But you've been highly critical of other military radio operators:
http://tinyurl.com/27fbwe
What's particularly interesting about that rant is that at the end of it you describe what it's like to be under artillery fire.
But in a later post, you admitted that you'd never, ever experienced what you described, and that your artillery barrage description was made up from the recollections of others:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/dac579f6a0668ec7?dmode=source&hl=en
http://tinyurl.com/2tpq2l
Seems to me that if it's OK for you to describe and comment on things you've never experienced, it should be OK for everyone.
AF6AY: "Those of us who are called good-for-nothing 'newbies' and 'know-nothings' are all supposed to be silent and worshipful while these 'elderly' Hero Hams trod all over us?"
Len, who ever called you a "good-for-nothing newbie" or a "know-nothing"?
You're a newbie to amateur radio. That's a fact - and there's nothing wrong with that.
AF6AY: "That sort of petty attitude might be fine for their concept of Professional Amateurs but I see it as just childlike amateur professionalism more suited to junior high school politics of the schoolyard. It's been a long time for me since high school and I get less and less interested in this so-called hobby ruled by a bunch of dysfunctional self-proclaimed 'leaders' trying to retrograde USA amateur radio as much as possible with outdated requirements for entry. This activity is a HOBBY. It isn't life itself. To rational beings."
Ah, now I see your point.
You think that anything old should simply be pushed aside and forgotten because it's old, even if people like it and use it.
You also think that anything which someone doesn't do for money is a "hobby".
You think that "hobbies" should not have any requirements, standards, or traditions. "Hobbies" should not require any learning or serious investment of time or effort (just money). According to you, no one should have to learn new skills to do something that is a "hobby".
Also, you don't want young people involved.
You don't think there should be competition or pride in accomplishment involved in "hobbies" (unless you are the winner, of course). And according to you, hobbyists don't provide public service, don't help out in emergencies, and don't contribute to the state of the art, either; hobbyists are just consumers.
To you, all those things I listed above are the realm of PROFESSIONALS. And by definition, amateurs aren't PROFESSIONALS, and shouldn't even try to have any of those things.
Most of all, you think that anyone who disagrees with you about all this is not a rational person. Everyone must agree with YOUR definition of amateur radio, and what you like in it.
The funny thing is, you never really describe what you like in amateur radio, or what you do in it. All we see are long repetitive outcries about what you DON'T like (CW, HF, older equipment, contests, awards, DX, ARRL, tradition, licensing, young hams, emergency and public service comms, homebrewing, antennas,...)
You're more critical than any of those you criticize, Len. And with less reason and rationality.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AF6G on March 14, 2009
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I am not an old timer by my personal definition of the term as I was originally licensed in early 1982 but suspect (True Old Timers - please correct me on the following:) that the (then new) CW guys got the same flack from some of the "Spark is King!" "Long Live Spark" group, the (then new) SSB (Donald Duck) guys got the same treatment form some of the CW folks. etc. Ham radio has evolved (and will continue to) but human nature has not and likely won't.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 14, 2009
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AF6G writes: "I..suspect..that the (then new) CW guys got the same flack from some of the "Spark is King!" "Long Live Spark" group,"
From what I have read and been told by folks who were hams back then, a little of that happened, but not much.
The transition from spark to CW (in the USA, anyway) took place very quickly. In 1919, when hams got back on the air after WW1, King Spark ruled the 200 meter amateur wave without much competition. By 1925, amateurs had moved to the short-waves and tube/CW transmitters. When spark transmission by hams was officially outlawed in the USA in 1927, it was a mere formality.
AF6G: "the (then new) SSB (Donald Duck) guys got the same treatment form some of the CW folks. etc."
Not exactly. When SSB first began to appear on the ham bands (late 1940s, although a few hams were on SSB in the mid-1930s), CW and 'phone usually kept to their own parts of the bands.
The SSB folks got 'flak' from some of the hams running AM, which was the dominant voice mode in ham radio until the late 1950s-early 1960s. But AM is still used by hams, particularly on 160, 75 and 40 meters, and a little of that rivalry carries on.
AF6G: "Ham radio has evolved (and will continue to) but human nature has not and likely won't."
Human nature has evolved, just more slowly. Couple of hundred years ago, if you'd claimed the ability to talk to people hundreds or thousands of miles away, the locals would have either hailed you as a saint or burned you as a witch.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 14, 2009
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AB9PM posted on 13 Mar 09:
"... I am a no code extra. I took all my exams in a single day, since other hams couldn't do it, I met with resistance right away at the testing site. Hams have been very discourteous to me also."
David, speaking only for myself, I thank you for having the COURAGE to speak your mind in here, for exercising your OPTION of doing what YOU wanted. Free will exercised without succumbing to the Group Mind syndrome that has infected much of USA amateur radio for decades. Thanks for having an OPEN mind, independent and not giving into demands by these olde-tymers who think 'They are in charge here.'
We have several parallels existing between you and I. I was born and grew up in another Winnebago County across the nearby southern border of Wisconsin (in Rockford) but a bit earlier in time (?) than yourself. I was also met with some resistance/doubt/challenge that I could pass just two tests in front of four ARRL VEC examiners. I cannot say for sure, but I think I was the first applicant in that team's experience to pass all tests in one day. Each exam team member independently checked my answer sheets, one muttering something like "he really did it!..." While I did get some honest congratulations and handshakes from each examiner, two 'got into their act' quickly of telling old war stories about Their experiences. The oldest one made much out of being related (by marriage) to a well-known but deceased broadcast radio personality in the Los Angeles area. While casually interesting to locals, it has no more bearing on amateur radio than any other professional radio.
That sort of vying for conversation championship has been growing more and more among the olde-tymer denizens of HF amateur bands. It is different in the more socially-oriented groupings found among VHF-and-up radio amateurs. My only contacts on HF are with human beings I've known personally before becoming licensed at age 74. That seems to anger the olde-tymers who say I don't 'honor' the traditions, do not 'honor' the majesty and glory of manual radiotelegraphy, did not 'do it the amateur way' of "first" licensing as a teen-ager and crawling up the amateur food chain for years by "working hard at it," whatever "it" was. The implication was, of course, that those NOT walking that tradition-honoring rote route right of passage "were 'stupid,' did not 'work at it.'" Sorry, teen (amateur) angels, but I worked and studied and immersed myself in technology for a whole career in professional electronics prior to getting my first amateur license in my retirement years.
..............
AB9PM: "Years ago hams were content helping people get on the air. Few people had to be the top dog. It has been very disconcerting for me. My equipment has been sitting in the corner for months now. I was a long time swl but since joining the ham ranks, I don't care to even listen to them any more."
Well, David, we have slightly different experiences but the are of general agreement. I got heavily interested in all electronics. My Army service pushed me fully into that, my luck being that I was INTO what I call Big Time HF Communications at the start. I had NO control over that but several in here have tried to cast shame on my 'failure' to get that 'valuable' ham ticket FIRST. [N2EY in particular, one who never served his country either military or civilian] Yes, I committed the unpardonable 'sin' of getting my Commercial license (gasp! shock!) FIRST, right after release from active duty. I didn't care to get a ham license until 51 years later. [gasp! horified glances!]
..............
AB9PM: "I think that people in this country need to learn manners, age and experience hasn't helped the bands. I guess too many americans think their license gives them ownership of the spectrum."
I would only expand on that in shining the spotlight on the olde-tymer hams. They seem to 'know' NOTHING but amateur activity in HF. So many are simply IGNORANT of a whole GREATER world of radio that exists above 30 MHz or that tiny portion that is below 550 KHz. They 'know' little more than the average (non-radio) citizen because they swim only in the small bowl of 'The Bands' [ham in HF] like a goldfish, prideful of appearance but of little use except to their own species. Most of them think they are King of the (radio) world but are only able to 'know' anything except what QST spoon-feeds them. Let them squirm when a hungry cat pads in and spots them... :-)
..............
Hang in there, David. Enjoy what YOU want to enjoy. I do the same, enjoying what I want to do.
73, Len AF6AY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KE5CYB on March 14, 2009
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It’s not the class level of an Amateur that matters……rather it’s the level of the class of the Amateur that counts.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 14, 2009
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N2EY tried to light everyone's fire on March 14, 2009 with:
"The transition from spark to CW (in the USA, anyway) took place very quickly. In 1919, when hams got back on the air after WW1, King Spark ruled the 200 meter amateur wave without much competition. By 1925, amateurs had moved to the short-waves and tube/CW transmitters. When spark transmission by hams was officially outlawed in the USA in 1927, it was a mere formality."
My sincere sympathy on losing your Spark transmitter back then. Did you try hooking a carbon microphone in series with the antenna to send voice? Was that a "Southgate Type" spark transmitter?
.............
N2EY: "Human nature has evolved, just more slowly. Couple of hundred years ago, if you'd claimed the ability to talk to people hundreds or thousands of miles away, the locals would have either hailed you as a saint or burned you as a witch."
Really? Gosh, Jimmy Miccolis tried to burn me at the stake in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009. So far he hasn't been able to light my fire. I respectfully suggest Jimmy buy a large barbeque lighter at his local supermarket for that. Oh, yes, he should remember not to urinate on the wood at the foot of the stake. That may be emotionally satisfying but it stifles ignition.
Wow, good thing that Jimmy didn't hear about my one-month fill-in at ADA Control in 1954. I could pick up any one of five handsets and talk immediately to Seattle, San Francisco, Honolulu, Okinawa, Manila from Tokyo...no tuning, no knob-twisting, no signalling, no license required, no bills to pay for service, no peasants with pitchforks and burning torches storming the gates at Chuo Kogyo back then.
AF6AY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 14, 2009
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Len (AF6AY) thank you for your comments. Terry KE7OSV, I definitely can say it wasn't the experience I expected. I thought ham radio was better than that. I am nearly 50 years old. Did AM BCB DX'ing as a child, c.b. as an early teenager (loved those walkie talkies) swl as an older teenager, studied what made electronics work, tube and transistors alike. My father could have killed me for the number of fuses I blew weekly in the electrical panel. I knew the amateur bands had some C.B. elements in it over the years listening to it, but my personal experience is if you can't run a megawatt with a 200 foot plus antenna, you will be downgraded every time. I never operated 2 meters but have a hard time understanding the concept the repeaters must be kept clear, because someone may need to use one???
The whole problem comes down to people who think they are better than other people. Learned more, earned more, seniority base system. I am better, I am greater. My belief that these thoughts come down to a low educated person of selfishness, or maybe better expressed this way, I paid my dues, so now I can abuse the system as I see fit.
I feel like I did when I was teenager and started with a walkie talkie, I had "Just" a walkie talkie so don't talk to that kid, today I find out I have "JUST" a no code license. So eventually it will all end up on e-bay for a few bucks, maybe I will return to model railroading, maybe something new. Life is an experience some good, some bad. With the attitude of these old farts when they die, they can take their radio spectrum with them to the grave, which is what they want to do anyway. These people today can't claim hams were like this 40 years ago, and they were treated like that. I had ham radio operators help me get into c.b. and swl.
If I had the money, and real estate I would put up the monster station running that megawatt with the processor over modulating splattering all over hell so I can be a BIG BOY! When you think about it, why should new people bother with the hobby, young and old alike? It is a real turn off. I have had better experiences on CQ 100! No big dogs there, a lot more equality!
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 14, 2009
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AB9PM writes: "I took all my exams in a single day, since other hams couldn't do it, I met with resistance right away at the testing site."
It's been possible to get any class of license at a single test session since the mid-1970s. What sort of "resistance" did you encounter?
AB9PM: "Hams have been very discourteous to me also. You have to put up a 200 foot tower with 1.5 kw linear so you can be a big dog and talk over everyone."
What bands and modes have you tried?
AB9PM: "Years ago hams were content helping people get on the air. Few people had to be the top dog. It has been very disconcerting for me."
....
I hope you can find a group you can be welcomed into, this means avoid most of 75 meters."
The kind of welcome you want is out there. It's on CW, particularly on the 'new Novice subbands' on 80 and 40 meters (3525-3600 kHz, 7025-7100 kHz). The hams there don't care how old you are, what tests you took or where, and you don't need a monster station to have lots of good QSOs. Plus those frequencies are open to all US hams, regardless of license class.
All you need is a decent signal and a little skill. 100 watts to a dipole up 30-40 feet will give you the signal but the skill is on you.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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We All Are NOT In This Together
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by K6LHA on March 15, 2009
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N2EY talked down to those in his age group late on Saturday night, 14 Mar 09:
"The kind of welcome you want is out there. It's on CW, particularly on the 'new Novice subbands' on 80 and 40 meters (3525-3600 kHz, 7025-7100 kHz). The hams there don't care how old you are, what tests you took or where, and you don't need a monster station to have lots of good QSOs. Plus those frequencies are open to all US hams, regardless of license class. All you need is a decent signal and a little skill. 100 watts to a dipole up 30-40 feet will give you the signal but the skill is on you."
Oh, such wonderful 'advice' of 'true spirit of USA amateur radio' that anyone could find in an ARRL publication of the 1950s. All by the superior intellect talking down, down, down to those not favoring "no-coders," those stupid sloths of no experience (by your definition).
Whooo-eeee, Jimmy, you gots lotsa problems of interpersonal social relationships and just about zero sensitivity as to what anyone else wants to do in their free time. Hello? Didn't you understand that you were lecturing a legal Amateur Extra who is fiftysomething and really and truly knows something about 'radio' and that knowledge may just extend farther out in the EM spectrum besides your beloved 80m and 40m, solely on HF?
You Mighty Macho Morsemen need to discover that some of us are NOT Professional Amateur Coders and can (gasp!) actually get along with other people on a person-to-person basis without resorting to the machine-like impersonal low-clue brief communications of sterile radiotelegraphy. Some of us can, and have for a half century, actually gotten along with (gasp!) speech. SPEECH! Like by Voice! Yes, face-to-face, not by standing on a podium on a stage LECTURING to what you think are grade schoolers, assuming an air of Mighty Importance looking down on what you perceive are dummies, morons, deficient intellects because we do not love, cherish, honor, and obey telegraphy. Ptui.
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We All Are NOT In This Together
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by K6LHA on March 15, 2009
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N2EY talked down to those in his age group late on Saturday night, 14 Mar 09:
"The kind of welcome you want is out there. It's on CW, particularly on the 'new Novice subbands' on 80 and 40 meters (3525-3600 kHz, 7025-7100 kHz). The hams there don't care how old you are, what tests you took or where, and you don't need a monster station to have lots of good QSOs. Plus those frequencies are open to all US hams, regardless of license class. All you need is a decent signal and a little skill. 100 watts to a dipole up 30-40 feet will give you the signal but the skill is on you."
Oh, such wonderful 'advice' of 'true spirit of USA amateur radio' that anyone could find in an ARRL publication of the 1950s. All by the superior intellect talking down, down, down to those not favoring "no-coders," those stupid sloths of no experience (by your definition).
Whooo-eeee, Jimmy, you gots lotsa problems of interpersonal social relationships and just about zero sensitivity as to what anyone else wants to do in their free time. Hello? Didn't you understand that you were LECTURING a legal Amateur Extra who is fiftysomething and just might know something about 'radio' and that knowledge may just extend farther out in the EM spectrum besides your beloved 80m and 40m, solely on HF?
You Mighty Macho Morsemen need to discover that some of us are NOT Professional Amateur Coders and can (gasp!) actually get along with other people on a person-to-person basis without resorting to the machine-like impersonal low-clue brief communications of sterile radiotelegraphy. Some of us can, and have for a half century, actually gotten along with (gasp!) speech. SPEECH! Like by Voice! Yes, face-to-face, not by standing on a podium on a stage LECTURING to what you think are grade schoolers, assuming an air of Mighty Importance looking down on what you perceive are dummies, morons, deficient intellects because we do not love, cherish, honor, and obey telegraphy. Ptui.
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RE: We All Are NOT In This Together
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by W8JII on March 15, 2009
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This thing between Jim and Len is relentless. How unfortunte dueling is against the law. I would gladly furnish dueling pistols or swords and they could have at it.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by VE3OIJ on March 15, 2009
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>>I am in that category, and it seems, we (new hams)
>>even though we may have the title of General, are
>>not considered to be "real hams", by many of the
>>"older hams"
Don't sweat that. The simple fact is that the younger hams have one single huge advantage over the old curmudgeons: time.
In 5, 10, 15 years, you'll still be a radio amateur. Where will they be?
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RE: We Really Are All In This Together
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by N2EY on March 15, 2009
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AF6AY writes: "N2EY talked down to those in his age group"
Len, I wasn't "talking down" to anyone. I was simply making a suggestion to AB9PM.
Here it is again:
N2EY: "The kind of welcome you want is out there. It's on CW, particularly on the 'new Novice subbands' on 80 and 40 meters (3525-3600 kHz, 7025-7100 kHz). The hams there don't care how old you are, what tests you took or where, and you don't need a monster station to have lots of good QSOs. Plus those frequencies are open to all US hams, regardless of license class. All you need is a decent signal and a little skill. 100 watts to a dipole up 30-40 feet will give you the signal but the skill is on you."
AF6AY: "Oh, such wonderful 'advice' of 'true spirit of USA amateur radio' that anyone could find in an ARRL publication of the 1950s."
Not really, Len. And what does it matter? I was simply suggesting something to AB9PM that could help him find the welcome he wants.
What's wrong with that?
AF6AY: "All by the superior intellect talking down, down, down to those not favoring "no-coders," those stupid sloths of no experience (by your definition)."
What ARE you talking about, Len?
All I did was to make a suggestion, based on my experience as a radio amateur of 42 years. Why does that suggestion bother you so much? Are you afraid some hams might do what I suggested?
AF6AY: "Whooo-eeee, Jimmy, you gots lotsa problems of interpersonal social relationships and just about zero sensitivity as to what anyone else wants to do in their free time."
Len, I'm not the one calling people names...
AF6AY: "Hello? Didn't you understand that you were LECTURING a legal Amateur Extra who is fiftysomething and just might know something about 'radio' and that knowledge may just extend farther out in the EM spectrum besides your beloved 80m and 40m, solely on HF?"
I wasn't lecturing anyone, Len. I was suggesting something to a relatively-new radio amateur, something he almost certainly hasn't tried. What's wrong with that?
AF6AY: "You Mighty Macho Morsemen need to discover that some of us are NOT Professional Amateur Coders and can (gasp!) actually get along with other people on a person-to-person basis without resorting to the machine-like impersonal low-clue brief communications of sterile radiotelegraphy. Some of us can, and have for a half century, actually gotten along with (gasp!) speech. SPEECH! Like by Voice!"
Well, Len, I've used speech for more than half a century myself. And I've used a variety of modes, including voice modes, in amateur radio.
Is there something wrong with promoting the use of Morse Code to hams who haven't tried it?
AF6AY: "Yes, face-to-face, not by standing on a podium on a stage LECTURING to what you think are grade schoolers, assuming an air of Mighty Importance looking down on what you perceive are dummies, morons, deficient intellects because we do not love, cherish, honor, and obey telegraphy. Ptui."
I didn't do any of that, Len. I just made a suggestion.
I leave the lecturing and talking-down to you.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K9MHZ on March 15, 2009
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>>>>KB0TXC (the amused) responds:
CHURCH???!!!
Hell (capital H), for the most part, 'church' is one of the most clique infested, unwelcoming places that humanity has ever invented! My dear holy Goddess Bastet, I have crossed the threshold of too many churches in my lifetime to be convinced otherwise. Sorta reminds me of amateur radio in a way...
You have your "washed in the blood/born in the spirit" OFs that preach sexual morality (or the use and worship of CW above all else). They preach sexual morality now because they are old and are addicted to Viagra, however Bastet only knows, when they were younger, they were doing anything with two legs!.......<<<<
Ummmmm....WOW. Well, at least you're "amused."
Brad
K9MHZ
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The Only 'WE' are the Olde-Tymers
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by K6LHA on March 15, 2009
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W8JII complained on 15 Mar 09:
"This thing between Jim and Len is relentless. How unfortunte dueling is against the law. I would gladly furnish dueling pistols or swords and they could have at it."
No need. Some 'die' repeatedly in these forums and never realize it. They must be the 'everliving'* immortals who achieved X-Men power and triumph through radiotelegraphy plus title, rank, status, and privilege as Professional Amateurs of the Olde Tyme, forever letting everyone know how good they are and never, EVER making mistakes of their own. <shrug>
Now back to the comic book pages (these forums) and the power/glory of the Mighty Macho Olde Tymers triumphing over 'evil.' :-)
73, Len AF6AY
* 'Everliving' is from the late James H. Schmitz novel "The Demon Breed."
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Immortals versus ordinary humans
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by K6LHA on March 15, 2009
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VE3OIJ made this excellent comment on 15 Mar 09:
">>I am in that category, and it seems, we (new hams)
>>even though we may have the title of General, are
>>not considered to be "real hams", by many of the
>>"older hams"
Don't sweat that. The simple fact is that the younger hams have one single huge advantage over the old curmudgeons: time.
In 5, 10, 15 years, you'll still be a radio amateur. Where will they be?"
...................
Heh heh heh...in 15 years I probably won't care much. The retirement home will hook up my IV and wheel me out to their funerals and I will have a nice cackle of amusement as they are lowered down, code keys still clenched in a hand death-grip inside their coffins.
Something similar has already happened over on rec.radio.amateur.policy years ago, before docket 05-235 was released for public comment. Two mighty, outspoken amateur morsemen passed on, both proclaiming their insistence of old things (such as radiotelegraphy) being the 'BEST' for all amateurs. I'm waiting for the inevitable third one. He's heeerrre... :-)
To paraphrase an old saying, "Time wounds all heels." :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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We Aren't Anywhere in Here
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by K6LHA on March 15, 2009
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Hmmm...In trying to get a read-back of the entire thread after posting two replies, it was cut off at about 8 Mar 09. <shrug>
AF6AY
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THANKS JOE
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by PLANKEYE on March 15, 2009
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Thanks Joe for the reply, I understand we differ on things Brother.
Hope you had a great Weekend.
God Bless!!
PLANKEYE
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by W3HR on March 15, 2009
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N2EY said: >>In 1990, ten years before the Advanced was closed to new issues, the FCC created medical waivers for the 13 and 20 wpm code tests. Get a note from a doctor and all anyone needed was 5 wpm for any class of license.<<
Jim:
Thank goodness for our old timers. Very well said, OM. I had forgotten about the medical waivers... thanks.
Makes me feel better about my 5wpm Extra. ;)
73,
de Tim, W3HR
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by KB6QXM on March 15, 2009
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Terry,
I am glad for all of the politically correct people on here. Patting you on the back saying it's OK, the old timers don't matter.
I guess educational standards do not matter in the US anymore. I guess that our population is becoming so dumbed down that we have to import most of our intellectual workforce. I know, I work in the Silicon Valley and see it everyday.
Granted, you should feel welcome to the hobby. But here my point of view.
You or anyone else should not have the same license title as someone who had to sweat over trying to pass a 13wpm or a 20wpm test. If the FCC wants to water down the hobby by having the theory tests so easy that my labrador retrievers could pass the test, then so be it.
Did my professors say to me "oh I see that this course is too difficult for you, forget this class, we will still give you your degree. No, either you did it or you found another major.
When I was passing my black belt in traditional Karate test, did my Sensei's say" Oh I see that this test is too difficult for you, we will give you your black belt anyways" NO!!! either you did it or you kept your brown belt. That's it. Education and my martial arts were based on tradition. The same with ham radio. CW was tradition that goes back to the beginning of radio and the hobby.
We have reached a point in our society that we have to be so inclusive. We cannot exclude anyone. That is why this country has not rounded up and deported all of the illegal immigrants in our country. Can we do it. Yes. Will we. No. We don't want to exclude them from our way of life. Are they breaking the law. Yes! Is this a sovereign nation? Yes. Do we enforce our immigration laws. No! Why? We do not want to exclude anyone from our way of life. Are the facts there how much illegal immigration costs our nation. Yes. Do we ignore it? Yes.
I am glad that you are another ham in the fold. Do I feel you are an equal to my advanced class license? No. Will I welcome you on the air. Yes, provided that you follow part97 and are a good appliance operator.
What I do not get is that ham radio was for the advancement of the art. If the new operators do not know the difference between resistance, reactance and impedance, how do you advance the art, if you are not technically savvy?
Not long ago, when someone knew you were a ham, you were respected for your technical knowledge. Not now.
Is this progress? It is not that all of us "older" hams have a problem with new hams. We have problems that you feel you are equal to us in your license when what you had to do what a fraction of what we had to do and know. Will I respect you on the air. If you act like a civil operator.
What I do not understand why the FCC wrote the new regulations to give the new licensees with the lower theory and no code the same spectrum.
I am not bitter, just voicing an opinion that differs from the Politically Correct crowd.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by KB0TXC on March 16, 2009
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KB6QXM Wrote:
<I guess that our population is becoming so dumbed down that we have to import most of our intellectual workforce. I know, I work in the Silicon Valley and see it everyday.>
I am *sure* that the phenom that you have experienced of your industry "having" to "import most of our intellectual workforce" has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the employers can get away with paying those H1B workers (I think that is what they are called, but I could be quite mistaken) far less than what an equivalent US worker would accept.
As far as code is concerned, I do not consider the removal of the code proficiency requirement from the general or extra as a 'dumbing down' as you call it. I consider it the recognition of a very important fact...that there folks that are <NOT> audio learners. I am one of these people. I am a visual-kinesthetic learner. What does that mean? It means that I learn and remember by watching, reading and doing. When some kind soul shows me how to use a grid dip meter, I practice once or twice, and presto, I can use a grid dip meter for the rest of my life. If someone <tells me how> to use a grid dip meter and leaves the thing in my hands and walks away, I will not really know how to use it. Same with faces vs. names. You tell me your name just once, I will forget. I will remember your face forever though.
Other folks are auditory learners. They learn best by hearing someone describe something to them. They are the best students in a class lesson that does not have reading or laboratory assignments. They remember the radio newscasts from years ago. They are also the ones that master the code. These learners will tell you things like "The code is easy, you just have to apply yourself" or this chestnut, "If you cannot learn the code, you are just being lazy".
I might have character flaws aplenty, (just ask plankeye), but laziness is not one of them. I tried for months to learn the code. It was tedious and I always wound up with a headache. I found it to be most unpleasant, and I will probably never attempt use it.
Most normal people never have studied learning theory, and for this I would say that they are quite lucky. It is a rather dry and boring subject. However, it is because that there are different neuro-physical learning styles that cannot be changed by the learner, that some find the code to be quite easy, (audio learners) while others find it impossible (visual/kinesthetic learners).
The only thing that the removal of the code proficiency requirement did was make amateur radio available for those of us who are not audio learners,(of which more than 50% of the people in the world are NOT). This removal (much to the howls of anger and rage of those who went through the rite of passage of CW) is very similar to what happened for those folk of a non-white skin tone when the US congress passed the voting rights act. It prohibited (to the howls of certain other folk, usually those that found bed-sheets to be all the rage in dress fashion) the states from imposing a written English test as a requirement in order to vote. Just as the CW test kept the majority of non-audio learners from obtaining an amateur ticket, those English tests kept those mostly non-white folk from being able to vote.
Now as far as the rather condescending little statement about 'appliance operators' is concerned, (which is really an insinuation that no code test operators are not technically competent), it is a real fallacy to make such a blanket statement. I might not ever use code, and I sure as heck took no code test. However, I have fully restored two Heath tube receivers, and I have an old Heath '401 transmitter that is on the bench waiting for my ministries. The thing is a real mess, and not much more than the cabinet and the transformers are usable. The caps are shot, the numskull that sold it on e-pay claimed it was in working order (when stored away) but strangely the finals were missing), a mouse had lived in it at some point and ruined the wires, and the deck will need to be bead blasted and clear coated (mousey rust). It is really not worth fixing, but I cannot stand to see something like this be thrown away.
If I understand correctly, you work in silicon valley. You probably have access to a lot more resources than those of us who do not work in tech have. I have no real way to build multilayer circuit boards, solder SMT components, etc and etc. I really do not care for building microprocessor circuits, and well, if I can find a used working Icom (for cheap, yes they are out there) that needs minimal service (I will always have an Icom receiver re-capped with better caps in the audio chain...it really does improve their sound), I will use that. I would be hard pressed to explain how a state of the art TU works, but I can bore you to death and give you a detailed stage by stage description of how my very vintage TT/L-2 works. I should be able to, as I completely restored and calibrated it. (And Bastet, does it work!) Whoever built that unit must have worked in the old Western Electric prototype shop, for I have never seen a home built piece of amateur gear that was so professionally put together. I even <designed> and built an extra set of filters for it that have just a little bit more width to them. My tube gear is more of a collector type of thing, and though I use them, I actually use my Icoms for amateur radio most of the time. If this reduces me in your eyes to an "appliance user", well, I guess that I am an appliance user in your eyes. And as far as this "appliance operator" with his "box top license" is concerned, I have spoken with numerous amateurs with "real" licenses that seem to think that the part 97 is some form of obscure tax form that does not apply to them.
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 16, 2009
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Jim N2EY wrote:
<The SSB folks got 'flak' from some of the hams running AM, which was the dominant voice mode in ham radio until the late 1950s-early 1960s. But AM is still used by hams, particularly on 160, 75 and 40 meters, and a little of that rivalry carries on.>
KB0TXC responds (and pontificates :-)
Jim, from what I have read, there was some, but not a lot of BS from the AMers to the new SSB ops. Now strangely, it is (just a few, thankfully) SSB ops that give the new AMers BS for using too much bandwidth. I love AM, and I am glad that there are some amateurs out there that use this mode again. It almost went away completely. I will never probably use AM as I fear that my IC 735 would put out a splattery signal and cause QRM for others.
I do believe that the real fight back in the day (waaaaayyyyy before my time) was when the FCC changed from the old (conditional ?) system to the "incentive" system of licensing. Apparently, there was more animosity among the old licensees toward the new incentive licensees as there is today among the old incentive licensees toward the new "box top" licensees as the OFs like to call us. I guess what goes around comes around, in a strange and sad sort of Karmonic way.
I myself am not young (alas) but I am very happy that new younger amateurs are getting into the hobby. I feel no bitterness toward them at all, and enjoy the enthusiasm of their youth. If all they want to do on the air is use keyboard and computer modes, I say God bless them and what can I do to help them become more proficient in the modes of their liking. It is my goal to be either personally or with two other amateurs that are friends of mine to get at least 100 new, younger kids into the hobby before I go SK. Teach your children well, as the old song goes. Unfortunately, I do have to warn them about the bitterness that will be displayed towards them by a small number of "hams". I have to warn them that they will be called "dumbed down", "box top amateurs", "welfare amateurs", "keyboard kiddies" etc and etc by a few, but I also assure them that by far, most amateurs no matter the age or type of license they possess are genuinely nice people.
Frankly, it I guess is a fact of human nature that the older generations sometimes resent the newer generations and are jealous of their youth and vitality. I myself envy their health, strong knees, and the lack of grey in their hair. However, I truly enjoy being around most young folk, I learn a lot from them, and I love to teach them, both about amateur radio and in the university classroom. There is one other thing that I would like to remind those of my generation and particularly those OFs that continuously put down the younger people... Being a kid today is very, and I mean <VERY> tough. I would not be a kid today for all the gold that used to be in Fort Knox. Why? Their schools are like prisons. Their teachers teach them how to take standardized tests rather than how to think for themselves(and that is NOT the kids' fault); society increasingly demands that they become "cookie cutter kids" and all dress the same (school uniforms...Jesus, just like in chairman Mao's China); there are control freaks everywhere dictating their every move; the insurance companies have more or less made it impossible for a teen below the age of 18 to be able to drive much further than a few miles from "home"; speaking of which, there are huge numbers of teens that have no real home, and go from friend's house to friend's house in order to have a place out of the weather to sleep; there are sick, evil predators everywhere ready to take advantage of them or worse; there are the God NAZI minions behind every convenience store counter determined to make sure that they (god forbid) don't drink a beer before they're 21 (yet who are more than willing to send them to die in some forsaken place in the name of nation building when they are 18); their job opportunities are slim; their post secondary educational opportunities are drying up and becoming so expensive that many will not be able to go to university, etc and etc. My generation, my father's generation and my father's father's generation royally screwed over the kids of today and tomorrow, both economically and socially. I indeed feel for them, and will do everything that I can to NOT make them feel belittled by my actions, unlike several "ham" radio OFs that I have run into recently.
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by WD4ABO on March 16, 2009
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KB6QXM Wrote:
“You or anyone else should not have the same license title as someone who had to sweat over trying to pass a 13wpm or a 20wpm test. If the FCC wants to water down the hobby by having the theory tests so easy that my labrador retrievers could pass the test, then so be it.”
CW is an outdated mode. You can argue the positives of CW all you want but the fact remains it has been abandoned by every other service. Much like spark gap transmitters, vacuum tubes and soon analogue TV broadcast the old has been replaced by the new. I passed my CW test to receive my license. I also learned vacuum tube theory to pass those test. Should I be retested today because I don’t know digital circuits? Some may think so but the technical art is only one stated purpose of the amateur service.
Remember this is Amateur Radio not Professional Radio. It is a hobby not a profession but a hobby that has lead many to a profession. I will go a far to say a profession they would not have had if not for their interest in amateur radio. Amateur radio is the start of a path of learning not an end. There are no Master degree’s programs for Amateur Radio.
We are supposed to be a self policing service and more important a self training service. This is where we old timers can be a positive part of the process. New hams are asking questions we need to encourage them and help them with answers. We will learn from them just as much as they will learn from us, the good and the bad.
This is not welfare, inclusiveness, or being politically correct. It is reality and one can either embrace change or be stagnant. Be part of the process or sit on the sidelines I don’t care. I have no time to sit on the sidelines and cry about changes. I have chosen my path and it is to encourage new hams not discourage them. If some of our new hams want to learn CW I can help with that too.
Raleigh, WD4ABO
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by K1BXI on March 16, 2009
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The original poster said......"As a fairly new ham (licensed approximately 18 months now) I am disturbed at the less than enthusiastic welcome that I received from many of the "Older Hams." I don't mean anything that has been aimed at me directly... I mean, as a new ham."
Let me re-write that as I see it...........As a fairly old ham (licensed approximately 52 years now) I am disturbed at the less than enthusiastic welcome that I received from many of the "new hams." I don't mean anything that has been aimed at me directly... I mean, as an old ham.
Works both ways Terry, and I suspect it always will.
Time to put this one to bed............John
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB2WQT on March 16, 2009
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Terry,
As you can see, you got a lot of support. I don't think there's anyone out there that can't tell you a story about running across a nasty or rude fellow ham. I guess some hams feel it's part on the initiation process. like most others say, IGNORE THEM AND TREK FORWARD.
I'm also not sure why some people assume all hams are former cb'ers and CB lingo is your problem.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 16, 2009
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FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye, very passable, that, very passable bit of risotto.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Nothing like a good glass of Château de Chasselas, eh, Josiah?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
You're right there, Obadiah.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Château de Chasselas, eh?
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
In them days we was glad to have the price of a cup o' tea.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
A cup o' cold tea.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Without milk or sugar.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Or tea.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
In a cracked cup, an' all.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Oh, we never had a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Because we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me, "Money doesn't buy you happiness, son".
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye, 'e was right.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye, 'e was.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Cardboard box?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
ALL:
They won't!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by K6LHA on March 16, 2009
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WD4ABO posted on 16 Mar 09:
KB6QXM: “You or anyone else should not have the same license title as someone who had to sweat over trying to pass a 13wpm or a 20wpm test. If the FCC wants to water down the hobby by having the theory tests so easy that my labrador retrievers could pass the test, then so be it.”
WD4ABO: "CW is an outdated mode. You can argue the positives of CW all you want but the fact remains it has been abandoned by every other service. Much like spark gap transmitters, vacuum tubes and soon analogue TV broadcast the old has been replaced by the new. I passed my CW test to receive my license. I also learned vacuum tube theory to pass those test. Should I be retested today because I don’t know digital circuits? Some may think so but the technical art is only one stated purpose of the amateur service."
I will amplify on that. Fifty-six years ago the US Army put me at an HF communications transmitting station. In less than a year I had operated and done periodic maintenance on three-dozen HF transmitters used to span the Pacific from Tokyo east to San Francisco, west to Seoul, south to Manila, operating 24/7 and carrying 250K messages a month in 1953. Not one single radio circuit was on-off keyed 'CW.' Thirty-six HF transmitters is MORE than almost every amateur radio licensee will ever operate in their entire life, including those manning W1AW. I have been TOLD that such "isn't amateur radio." That's true...but only to perception of some. The SAME principles of vacuum tube transmitters apply to today's vacuum tube transmitters...one "peaks the grid and dips the plate" in any Class C tube Tx then as now. The SAME principles of HF ionospheric propagation apply to today's use...for those much-fewer HF users of today (except, of course, amateurs). A difference was that hams of old could not (legally) run 10 KW or 15 KW RF output (increased at my old station to 40 KW for some circuits in 1954).
By 1960 I had - personally - studied enough of vacuum tube circuit design to apply that to professional design work, and did. Then I had to switch to solid-state active devices and do the very same self-study for them (no specific courses were available during my free time), PLUS tackle digital circuitry (blocks of discrete circuit structures)...TI IC (TTL) devices were then new, expensive, useable only in high-cost new equipment. Today, as an example, an MC145151 phase-locked-loop IC (complete one package subsystem) is OLD, scarce, and has been out-paced by any number of Analog Devices DDS ICs for frequency synthesis. The quaint, obsolete idea still persists in older amateur's minds that ham radio MUST be analog-only...none of that 'new-fangled' digital gadgetry...which has been IN USA amateur radio for over 30 years.
..............
WD4ABO: "Remember this is Amateur Radio not Professional Radio. It is a hobby not a profession but a hobby that has lead many to a profession. I will go a far to say a profession they would not have had if not for their interest in amateur radio. Amateur radio is the start of a path of learning not an end. There are no Master degree’s programs for Amateur Radio."
There are many BS degrees being flaunted by hams today. None of those involve Science. :-)
In looking back in memory of working in the electronics industry of southern California since 1956, amateur radio hobbyists were in a distinct MINORITY. If any industry group of electronics workers had as many as one in five who ever had ANY experience in ham radio in their lives, that was an exception. The technology can be personally FASCINATING and grows much moreso with advancements continuing, mighty ham ticket or no.
..............
WD4ABO: "We are supposed to be a self policing service and more important a self training service. This is where we old timers can be a positive part of the process. New hams are asking questions we need to encourage them and help them with answers. We will learn from them just as much as they will learn from us, the good and the bad."
Today there is much less of this 'training' by olde-tymers, or even new-timers. There are thousands of CLAIMS of such noble (heroic?) 'service to the community' but very little actual fact. The 'fact' is mostly one-upmanship claims in forums. I say 'mostly' because there are a few who ACTUALLY do that. Not many, though.
As an example, I could teach many lessons on basic circuit theory COLD (no preparation, no notes), doing examples on a whiteboard, armed only with a handheld scientific calculator (for numbers of any example), to anyone really and truly interested in the technology. NO! cry the olde-tymers, "I am a 'newbie' to ham radio and don't know anything about it!" I would have to run yet-another-gauntlet of taunts, jeers, and kibitzing by those olde-tymers (many of whom are mystified by Ohm's Law of Resistance) who have been Licensed since Hiram was a boy. I don't need that at age 76, rather long into retirement, trying to enjoy what life I have left without the control-freak attitudes of some Class A personality amateurs.
Now, in truth, I couldn't teach a thing about on-off keyed radiotelegraphy OPERATING. I've never used it, never had to use it in any civilian or military radio service in over half a century. It is not my personal goal, ambition to be an EXHIBT in a Living Museum of Ancient Radio Skill. I might, if curious, visit such a museum some time. That is not high on my agenda. All I could do is tell about the electronic characteristics, spectral occupancy dependent on data rates (Shannon's Law), rise and fall times of CW carriers affecting that spectral occupancy and known 'morse' system history replete with the 'bad' side concerning errors in transmission resulting in loss of commerce, etc. Morse amateurs will not hear of anything 'bad' about on-off keyed 'CW.' It was always 'perfect' (just as they are).
...............
WD4ABO: "This is not welfare, inclusiveness, or being politically correct. It is reality and one can either embrace change or be stagnant. Be part of the process or sit on the sidelines I don’t care. I have no time to sit on the sidelines and cry about changes."
KB6QXM has written much about his worries and fears of 'outsourcing' and possible loss of his job position in Silicon Gulch. I've never worked there, just in the aerospace community of southern California. I can 'feel his pain' after experiencing THREE lay-offs due to either contract-bid denials or the outright downsizing of a corporation (RCA for mine). He gets NO sympathy from me. More importantly, the JOB WORRIES in one area are DO NOT HAVE, definitely NOT anything regarding amateur radio. KB6QXM should be thankful he HAS a job...to give him shelter and sustenance enabling him to talk about a HOBBY pursuit...and let him Vent on his very-personal job frustrations.
In my entire life I've seen profound changes in everything all around me. In my opinion they were ALL for the betterment of everyone. Some poor souls, looking for some nirvana or a place where They May Be King, demand a halt to all changes...in a particular activity where they think they have Learned All, Better Than Most. <shrug>
.................
WD4ABO: "I have chosen my path and it is to encourage new hams not discourage them."
I don't consider amateur radio any 'Calling' nor do I see it as a 'Life Work.' I see it as a HOBBY, something of personal pleasure done without monetary compensation. When there exist opportunities in one's life, one should take advantage of those opportunities. Some, who have not dared explore the unknown of their futures, are fearful of such venturing, preferring the safety and sanctity of the known, the past. Most of us have many, many OPTIONS in life. No one choice is optimum for all. "Option is no failure" (paraphrase of Gene Kranz, Flight Director of the Apollo 13 mission).
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W3TTT on March 16, 2009
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"...Build your credentials. Not ready for Extra? How about getting Skywarn certification, or taking the IS-100 and IS-700 NIMS courses (free, on-line), or some of the ARRL courses..."
What? Is the is-100/700 considered as "credentials"? Because I have these, as a Coast Guard volunteer.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W3TTT on March 16, 2009
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"..."We are not given the same level of respect that a real General of many years would receive."
Even if that were true, you'd have to have been a General many years ago to know what respect you received, so what? ..."
In one organization that I used to belong to, a "general" got a really really lot of respect.
hihi.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC9HYZ on March 16, 2009
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I'd like to add that I have had nothing but positive experiences since becoming licensed 3.5 years ago. The local experienced operators have been outstanding here in Madison County, Indiana. I think it is better to call them experienced insted of older or old timer. The latter seems, well, disrespectful.
In fact, three of us Tech's just got upgraded yesterday to General because of four experienced operators who spent 6 Sunday afternoons holding two hour classes to help us upgrade.
Wish everyone had that kinda support!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 16, 2009
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TIMEWILLTELL writes: "The above is by Monty Python."
Not exactly.
The "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch was originally written for and performed on the British TV comedy series "At Last the 1948 Show".
The original version can be seen at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MtKNLfhT6M
done by the writer-performers:
Tim Brooke-Taylor
John Cleese (later member of Monty Python)
Graham Chapman (later member of Monty Python)
Marty Feldman (probably best known as Eye-gor in Mel Brooks' "Young Frankenstein".
Monty Python made it much more famous, of course:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
And even though two of the four original performers (Graham Chapman and Marty Feldman) are no longer with us, the sketch lives on:
(version with Eddie Izzard, Alan Rickman, Harry Enfield and Eric Idle):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lb-2VaJYPw
73 de Jim, N2EY
BURMA!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 16, 2009
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KB6QXM writes: "I am glad for all of the politically correct people on here. Patting you on the back saying it's OK, the old timers don't matter."
Well, I'm probably an old-timer (42 years a licensed radio amateur, 39 of them an Extra) and I'm as electropolitically incorrect as they come.
KB6QXM: "I guess educational standards do not matter in the US anymore."
Sure they do - it just depends where you look and what standards you want to see.
KB6QXM: "You or anyone else should not have the same license title as someone who had to sweat over trying to pass a 13wpm or a 20wpm test."
Why not? Should the license titles change every time the requirements do? If so, we'd soon have more license names than we could keep track of.
Way back in 1970, when I got my Extra, I had to go to an FCC office, send and receive 20 wpm, pass a ~50 question multiple-choice written exam with no access to the actual Q&A. Plus I needed 2 years experience as a General or Advanced just to try.
By 1980, the sending test and the experience requirement were gone, the FCC was also doing testing at hamfests and conventions, and Bash books made the Q&A available.
By 1990, the Q&A were published, the testing done by VEs and the code test 5 wpm with a waiver. In 2000 the waiver went away, and in 2007 the code test went away too.
Should FCC have changed the license name each time?
Some may look at what I did in 1970 at the age of 16 in the summer between 10th and 11th grades and say "You got a *real* Extra back then!"
But consider the ham who got an Extra in 1960. That amateur had to do everything I did, plus the written exam was ~100 questions, not ~50, and the questions were a mix of essay, draw-a-diagram, show-your-work-calculation and multiple-choice. All for a license that didn't give any more operating privileges than a General.
Now, who got the *real* Extra?
KB6QXM: "If the FCC wants to water down the hobby by having the theory tests so easy that my labrador retrievers could pass the test, then so be it."
The current written exams may seem easy compared to what you or I took way-back-when. But they should seem easy to someone who has been a ham a long time, or who has a technical background. Try to consider what they look like to a person without such a background.
In looking at the old study guides and comparing them to the current exams, one thing that seems obvious to me is that the old exams covered a few subjects in considerable depth while the current ones cover a wide range of subjects in less detail. Which is "harder" depends on one's point of view.
KB6QXM: "Did my professors say to me "oh I see that this course is too difficult for you, forget this class, we will still give you your degree. No, either you did it or you found another major."
Same with mine. However, over time, the requirements for the same degree have changed. When one of my professors was an undergrad, all engineering students had to take courses like metalworking and machine shop, regardless of discipline. That was long gone by my time to make room for things like computer programming and solid state electronics. Is my degree somehow less than my professor's?
KB6QXM: "CW was tradition that goes back to the beginning of radio and the hobby."
And it's up to us to keep traditions alive.
KB6QXM: "We have reached a point in our society that we have to be so inclusive. We cannot exclude anyone. That is why this country has not rounded up and deported all of the illegal immigrants in our country. Can we do it. Yes. Will we. No. We don't want to exclude them from our way of life. Are they breaking the law. Yes! Is this a sovereign nation? Yes. Do we enforce our immigration laws. No! Why? We do not want to exclude anyone from our way of life."
No, that's not what's going on with illegal immigration.
Many illegal immigrants come to the USA to work. Some employers use them because they will work for very low wages and endure all sorts of things that citizens won't. The employers know illegals won't go to the law, because doing so would expose their illegal status. Without illegals, those employers would have to pay more money and improve working conditions.
That's why it's allowed to continue.
KB6QXM: "What I do not understand why the FCC wrote the new regulations to give the new licensees with the lower theory and no code the same spectrum."
Simple: It was easier and lower-cost for them to do so.
Look at every change to Part 97 since 1980, and you'll see that almost all of them come down to using less FCC resources for the ARS.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 16, 2009
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WD4ABO writes: "CW is an outdated mode. You can argue the positives of CW all you want but the fact remains it has been abandoned by every other service."
Just because other services don't use Morse Code doesn't mean it's outdated. It simply means they have different goals and resources.
There is still some non-amateur use of Morse Code on radio, too. Not much, but some.
WD4ABO: "Much like spark gap transmitters, vacuum tubes and soon analogue TV broadcast the old has been replaced by the new."
Spark was abandoned by amateurs in the mid-1920s. Vacuum tubes are still used in some applications. Analog TV is being eliminated for business reasons.
WD4ABO: "Remember this is Amateur Radio not Professional Radio."
Which means the fact that "professionals" don't use something has no bearing on what amateurs use.
WD4ABO: "It is a hobby not a profession but a hobby that has lead many to a profession. I will go a far to say a profession they would not have had if not for their interest in amateur radio. Amateur radio is the start of a path of learning not an end."
Amateur Radio is a lot more than a hobby - just look at what has been done by amateurs in the field of public service and emergency communications.
I do agree that there are many, including myself, whose career path was inspired and helped by amateur radio. And that the path of learning doesn't end with obtaining a license, nor with decades of experience.
WD4ABO: "We are supposed to be a self policing service and more important a self training service. This is where we old timers can be a positive part of the process."
Agreed - but we can only self-police to a certain point.
WD4ABO: "New hams are asking questions we need to encourage them and help them with answers."
Yep. Just as was done when we were newcomers.
But at the same time, we need to keep certain standards, and not simply accept everything that comes along as "progress" simply because it's new. For example, Amateur Radio should be G-rated, regardless of what's on other radio services.
WD4ABO: "I have chosen my path and it is to encourage new hams not discourage them. If some of our new hams want to learn CW I can help with that too."
Same here!
But respect works both ways.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by WD4ABO on March 16, 2009
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AF6AY Wrote:
There are many BS degrees being flaunted by hams today. None of those involve Science. :-)
Yes indeed! I would add for some if there is a degree in BS many would instantly qualify for a PhD…:-)
N2EY
Sounds like you and I look at fellow “new hams” in much the same way. You know ya gotta start somewhere. Many older more experienced hams helped me and I’m grateful for that. I feel the best legacy I can leave them is to pass on what I can to the next generation. It is what they did for me.
We can have differences of opinion about different aspects of the hobby. I still believe CW and AM for that matter are outdated. Other modes can carry more information more efficiently but does that mean we should abandon those? No. There is a certain art form in a CW operator’s style. I’ll venture to speculate that even if it is not a requirement some will pick up CW and thrive with it. Nothing sounds quite like a finely tuned plate modulated AM signal where the voice sounds like Hi-Fi FM. SSB didn’t kill the mode. It’s still there creating interest in another generation of hams.
But this is still a hobby. Yes ham do provide the best “public service” at little to no cost to our government better that can be obtained anywhere. The Cell phone companies said they could do it but I think that has been easily debunked. It’s my belief you can’t find anything close outside Ham Radio. It is one of the propose statements in part 97. I think the ARRL’s Amateur code said it best. Written in 1928 by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA. Some ideas are timeless.
The Radio Amateur is
CONSIDERATE...never knowingly operates in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others.
LOYAL...offers loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local clubs, and the American Radio Relay League, through which Amateur Radio in the United States is represented nationally and internationally.
PROGRESSIVE...with knowledge abreast of science, a well-built and efficient station and operation above reproach.
FRIENDLY...slow and patient operating when requested; friendly advice and counsel to the beginner; kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit.
BALANCED...radio is an avocation, never interfering with duties owed to family, job, school or community.
PATRIOTIC...station and skill always ready for service to country and community.
I’m not perfect and at times I haven’t lived up to those. Maybe these are the standards we need to remind ourselves of often and better yet follow to provide an example by deeds. Sure can’t hurt. Reminds me of another saying “Lead by Example.”
Yes,very very true, respect does work both ways.
I’ve enjoyed this guys. I hope Mr. Deuel found something in the discussion to prove that everything has a few bad apples in every peck but keep looking the sweeter apples are still there but if your gonna give up and whine about your treatment …well….
Hope to catch you both on the bands!
Raleigh WD4ABO
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I WANT
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by PLANKEYE on March 16, 2009
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JOE:
As far as code is concerned, I do not consider the removal of the code proficiency requirement from the general or extra as a 'dumbing down' as you call it. I consider it the recognition of a very important fact...that there folks that are <NOT> audio learners. I am one of these people. I am a visual-kinesthetic learner. What does that mean? It means that I learn and remember by watching, reading and doing. When some kind soul shows me how to use a grid dip meter, I practice once or twice, and presto, I can use a grid dip meter for the rest of my life. If someone <tells me how> to use a grid dip meter and leaves the thing in my hands and walks away, I will not really know how to use it. Same with faces vs. names. You tell me your name just once, I will forget. I will remember your face forever though.
__________________
PLANKEYE:
This is a HOBBY Joe.
Alot of folks are like you, they can't learn CW because of a number of reasons.
That's cool man. This is just a hobby.
You speak as though you are pleading.
Joe, most folks understand that this is just a Hobby Brother.
You seem to act as if it is Medical School.
Or the Navy Seals.
Chill out Dude, there is a place for Visual Learners and folks that Plead.
Remember, it's just a Hobby!!
PLANKEYE
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RE: I WANT
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by KB0TXC on March 16, 2009
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Plank-AI wrote:
PLANKEYE:
This is a HOBBY Joe.
Alot of folks are like you, they can't learn CW because of a number of reasons.
That's cool man. This is just a hobby.
You speak as though you are pleading.
Joe, most folks understand that this is just a Hobby Brother.
You seem to act as if it is Medical School.
Or the Navy Seals.
Chill out Dude, there is a place for Visual Learners and folks that Plead.
KB0TXC Responds when he should be preparing Thrusday's lecture...
Yes Plank eye, I realize that it is just a hobby. For the umteenth time, I am no way connected to the medical profession, other than by dear friend who is a doc. I am not a Navy Seal either...those guys are far better folk than I could ever hope to be. Talk about admiration, they have mine!
No, I am simply one who takes offense when some nincompoop insinuates that I am "dumbed down" so to speak because I did not take a code test, and that I am somehow inferior because I did not go through the same rite of passage that somebody else might have. What is particularly galling is when same person insinuates that I am not technically competent because I haven't built all of my own radio gear. That is alright though, I doubt Mr 'I am not bitter' martial artist could conduct a defense of a thesis in advanced linguistics in front of steely eyed critics (rather than steely eyed FCC examiners) just looking for a fallacy, like I have in the not to distant past.
Nope P-AI, I was not pleading like a puppy for a table scrap. I was stating my thoughts and opinion. I was making a point that suggests that those that went through their particular rite of passage (in order to obtain a HF license) really need to let go of the fact that folk now no longer have to do so. Unlike martial arts, which requires years of training and devotion on a personal level, and that requires no publicly owned resources to study and master, (and thus, there is no case to be made for eliminating any requirements in accomplishing that mastery), amateur radio uses the publicly owned airwaves, and thus, artificial impediments designed to keep the public out of the activity must be removed (just like the prohibition by the Voting Rights Act of the English proficiency tests that were at one time used to keep non-white folk from voting). For this reason, his comparison of his achievement requirements in the martial arts to the licensing requirements of amateur radio is a fallacious one...or to use a colloquialism, he was comparing apples to oranges.
You may have noticed that I in no way denigrated his martial arts accomplishments. (I also admire martial artists.) I have no basis for doing so. I have never seen him perform, and I take his word on his achievements. However, his general insinuation is that those of us with a no-code-test amateur license are somehow 'dumbed down', technically incompetent, etc and etc. Thus, he is committing the the same offense that I would have if I had called his martial acheivements into question simply because I disagree with him on a completely unrelated topic here in an amateur radio forum. And so I called him on this in a public forum just as he made his fallacious insinuations about no code test amateurs in said public forum.
Now I am off to prepare a lesson unit in phonological linguistics. Fun fun fun fun...
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by VK5SW on March 16, 2009
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Have been away for a while, hence my late comment.
Terry, I'm disappointed that you have had this experience with the older Hams. I'm an old Ham myself and realize that not knowing CW means that you're limited in how you can operate, that's all. To me, it doesn't mean that you haven't earned your 'right of passage'.
What ever you do, don't give it away because the older ones don't make you feel welcome. Just realize that you can help others and make a difference by welcoming newcomers onto the bands yourself.
73 for now. Rob. www.VK5SW.com
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by K6LHA on March 16, 2009
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WD4ABO wrote on 16 Mar 09:
AF6AY: "There are many BS degrees being flaunted by hams today. None of those involve Science. :-)"
"Yes indeed! I would add for some if there is a degree in BS many would instantly qualify for a PhD…:-)"
Some in here appear to be engaged in 'post-doctoral studies' of that sort of BS...
................
WD4ABO: "Yes ham do provide the best “public service” at little to no cost to our government better that can be obtained anywhere. The Cell phone companies said they could do it but I think that has been easily debunked."
Ahem...I have some dispute with that. Example: The Northridge earthquake of 17 Jan 94 that killed 53 immediately and left Billions of $ in damages. TOTAL electrical power outage to about 10 million population. Hit in darkness a couple minutes or so after 4:30 AM. There were NO immediate responses from radio amateur emergency nets. FEMA flew in some video terminals the next day and had them operating for about the closest 'health and welfare' messaging possible, viewers seeing messages in actual handwriting of the senders and vice versa. Amateur equivalents, sans any video, were operating two days afterwards.
Public safety agencies reacted immediately. Fire departments had their own dedicated phone lines NOT going through switching centers. Police departments had their own emergency generators at base stations with most cars as mobile as before. Hospitals and ambulance service companies had their own base station emergency generators with all vans also mobile. Telephone central offices already had battery emergency power since many decades ago. The utility companies (who had the toughest job of all) were on the job immediately, communicating with their own radios in Public Land Mobile Radio Service. The Greater Los Angeles Emergency Communications Center was already completed, had drilled for all kinds of emergency situations and functioned as designed (even with primary electrical power out).
Electrical power began being restored just before Noon, but the power center had to do a very rare 'black start,' i.e., coming up sector by sector from total outage...keeping sectors with bad damage off the local grid to allow repair. Was the telephone infrastructure 'destroyed?' No, only immediately overloaded in that early morning darkness due to its never being designed to handle everyone at once. I got a call from my uncle in Florida at around 2:30 PM that afternoon, no problem, another call from a friend a bit later. Local government came very close to calling the State Government for National Guard emergency deployment but we locals handled it without their need. A viewing of past video news will show that other states did have NG assistance, from flooding in the Dakotas to the flooding of New Orleans...unmistakable shapes of military HMMVs with obvious whip antennas in the background of speaking reporters on video.
"It’s my belief you can’t find anything close outside Ham Radio."
It is my experience, about as nasty and immediate as one can get INSIDE an emergency situation, that the existing infrastructure, IF and only IF properly equipped and trained, drilled repeatedly in an organized grouping with cooperative effort, CAN, DID, and DOES serve the whole public. In L.A. existing infrastructure ommunications worked just fine 15 years ago.
In some locales, governments have reacted and organized IN ADDITION to a very good emergency service. The State of California has its AES or Auxilliary Emergency Service that can call on ANY existing communications service (not just amateur) to effect communications. There is also the hardly-touched USA military itself, superbly equipped with rugged, super-reliable, any-terrestrial-environment-proof radio equipment...and mobile central offices with/without commsat terminals could, if worst comes to worst, step in where the National Guard is overwhelmed. There are other areas of radio not mentioned in amateur publications such as the civil airways. During the first east coast power blackout, ALL FAA airways traffic control ground station were without power during that blackout. The FCC had required emergency runway lighting but NOTHING about radios. Hundreds of passengers aloft, dozens of air carriers literally in the dark suddenly. Air carrier pilots talked to themselves to get orientation. NO aircraft accidents then.
Having part of my career involving military design, I'm well acquainted with what will survive under extreme environments...including submergence such as sometimes happens in extreme flooding. While a very few amateur-market handhelds claim working after submergence, the majority of amateur radio equipment will NOT survive extreme environments, especially those home made frankenboxes. Evil 'always-failing' infrastructure radios are in the 'industrial' quality category and have already proved themselves to survive in harsh environments.
The place where I took my first amateur radio tests two years ago is an Old Firehouse decommissioned due to a New Firehouse a quarter mile away. Since it is still serviceable as a quake-proof building, the old firehouse was made one of the base stations in the new L.A. Emergency Communications Auxilliary. Not exactly amateur-only, that Auxilliary is funded by the L.A. City Fire Department, has more frequencies than just amateur bands, has its own mobile station, a modified school bus, ready to roll any time through the single engine door. Just one example of what CAN be done WITHOUT resorting to quaint ideas about 'radio rescue' by unorganized, untrained, undrilled amateurs.
................
WD4ABO: "I think the ARRL’s Amateur code said it best. Written in 1928 by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA."
Segal was also legal representative of the ARRL in DC at the time. <shrug>
"Some ideas are timeless."
One is, in my opinion, very self-serving and out of place for 77% of USA licensees:
"The Radio Amateur is LOYAL...offers loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local clubs, and the American Radio Relay League, through which Amateur Radio in the United States is represented nationally and internationally."
I became a member of the ARRL shortly after receiving my Amateur Extra grant. That will be over at the end of March this year. The ARRL has done NOTHING for me. I was able to 'vote' only once and then with NO candidate for Director (nobody wanted that job)...all attempts at communication with local ARRL officials have been ignored. In my view the League has been only self-serving, NOT serving any inducement to newcomers or non-members to join. As of the end of 2007, the paid membership of the League was less than 23% of all USA licensees, shows no evidence of ever being more than that previous. Two years of monthly QST magazines and not even a lousy tee-shirt...:-(
................
WD4ABO: :...Maybe these are the standards we need to remind ourselves of often and better yet follow to provide an example by deeds."
WE should also know that 1928 was 81 years ago and Segal worked for the ARRL. 1928 had no such thing as any transistor, much less integrated circuits, or a large selection of OPTIONAL modes and much more bandspace to use to effect communications as we have now. It is a quaint set of truisms of long ago about in the style of old folksy Almanacs of two centuries past...or a current edition of Reader's Digest magazine...emotional candy for those that can't think for themselves. I don't care for such opiates in a pipe to day-dream with, but some folk are hooked on it. <shrug>
.................
WD4ABO: "Hope to catch you both on the bands!"
Thank you but unlikely with me. Obtaining my amateur license I knew full well that any radio direction on HF from north to the east would be by NVIS techniques ONLY for most of the contiguous states of the USA. No matter. There is a huge population of amateurs along the Pacific coast. Not a problem except for easterners who don't give a snit about us in the western part of the USA.
73, Len AF6AY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KI6AKZ on March 17, 2009
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Yes, I have been subject to this kind of discrimination and have found it disappointing. But I have been a member of organizations populated by people who are less than friendly before. I will continue in Amateur Radio because the ones who are discriminatory are in the minority in my opinion. I would like to hear from some long-time radio guys about this subject including how they believe both sides should proceed to resolution of the problem.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by W1JAU on March 17, 2009
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The amount of bloviating that goes on here by some is impressive, if all this energy could be harnessed for something more beneficial to amateur radio the bands would be a better place, but I must admit that I do find the delusions of grandeur entertaining.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 17, 2009
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N2EY previously wrote:"The SSB folks got 'flak' from some of the hams running AM, which was the dominant voice mode in ham radio until the late 1950s-early 1960s. But AM is still used by hams, particularly on 160, 75 and 40 meters, and a little of that rivalry carries on."
KB0TXC:"from what I have read, there was some, but not a lot of BS from the AMers to the new SSB ops. Now strangely, it is (just a few, thankfully) SSB ops that give the new AMers BS for using too much bandwidth."
There was a considerable amount, and it could get pretty acrimonious at times. The SSB folks did not like the AM carrier, nor the use of more than twice the bandwidth. The AM folks did not like the relatively-poor audio quality of SSB, being crowded, and most of all names like "luddite", "ancient modulation" and such.
KB0TXC: "I love AM, and I am glad that there are some amateurs out there that use this mode again. It almost went away completely."
I've used AM, SSB and FM voice on the ham bands, and they all have their place.
KB0TXC: "I will never probably use AM as I fear that my IC 735 would put out a splattery signal and cause QRM for others."
Not if you use it right.
Or why not restore a classic AM rig, or build one? AMers embrace all sorts of technologies, from pre-WW2 classics to pulse-width-modulated finals.
KB0TXC: "I do believe that the real fight back in the day (waaaaayyyyy before my time) was when the FCC changed from the old (conditional ?) system to the "incentive" system of licensing. Apparently, there was more animosity among the old licensees toward the new incentive licensees as there is today among the old incentive licensees toward the new "box top" licensees as the OFs like to call us. I guess what goes around comes around, in a strange and sad sort of Karmonic way."
I'm not sure what change you're talking about. Do you mean the 1951 restructuring, the great giveaway of 1952, the incentive licensing changes of 1968-69, the VE changes of 1983 or something else?
For a written history of US amateur radio licensing from 1950 to 2000, google my call and "licensing amateur radio fifty years". If that doesn't work, I'll provide a link.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 17, 2009
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Jim N2EY wrote:
<I'm not sure what change you're talking about. Do you mean the 1951 restructuring, the great giveaway of 1952, the incentive licensing changes of 1968-69, the VE changes of 1983 or something else?>
KB0TXC Responds:
Hi Jim,
I guess that I am confused on this myself. I am talking about when the FCC quit using the Class A,B, and Conditional (I guess?). I have heard so real old timers when I was a kid claim that these were used before the Novice, Technician, General, Advanced and Extra classes.
Like I have mentioned before, I remember hearing about an old SK that used to call "CQ ... No lids, kids or space cadets, Class A operators only". The space cadets referred to modes other than AM and the Class A was something to do with pre-incentive license class (or so I have read).
I will check out your site and learn something today!
Best,
73
Joe KB0TXC
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N0CR on March 17, 2009
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I've notice some long time hams avoiding or talking down new hams. It's normally when a new ham stumbles all over the air attempting to make contacts. It's a good idea to do a lot of listening before jumping right in. Get an idea of how it's done and what other hams expect from you on the air. I wouldn't let a few hard nose hams scare me off. Some of these guys probably don't remember when they were first on the air as a ham and received help and tolerance from other hams. That being said, I've met many great old timers on the air that were very friendly and helpful. The vast majority of hams are tolerant of new hams and will be happy to help you improve your ham skills. So get on the air and enjoy! 73, JR
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 17, 2009
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KB0TXC writes: "I am talking about when the FCC quit using the Class A,B, and Conditional (I guess?). I have heard so real old timers when I was a kid claim that these were used before the Novice, Technician, General, Advanced and Extra classes."
Before 1951, there were three classes of US amateur license: A, B and C. All required 13 wpm code and a ~50 question written, and gave full-power access to all amateur frequencies - but not all modes.
If a ham wanted to use 'phone on the ham bands between 2.5 and 25 MHz, s/he needed a Class A, which required an additional ~50 question written exam and a year's experience. This meant HF 'phone subbands other than 10 and 11 meters were the realm of Class A ops only.
Classes A and B were only given at FCC exam sessions.
Class C was available only by mail, with the exams given by a single volunteer examiner. To qualify for Class C you had to live at least 125 miles from an FCC exam point or have a physical disability that prevented going to an FCC exam session. Plus, if a Class C moved closer than 125 miles to an FCC exam session, or recovered from the disability, s/he had 90 days to take the Class B tests again at an FCC exam session or lose the license.
In 1951, the system was expanded and changed to six license classes:
Novice: 1 year 1-time 'learner's permit'for beginners. 5 wpm code, simple 20 question written.
Technician: VHF/UHF license for experimenters. 5 wpm code, same written as General.
General: Class B renamed.
Conditional: Class C renamed.
Advanced: Class A renamed. No new Advanceds issued after Dec 31, 1952.
Extra: Replaced Advanced. 20 wpm code, ~100 question test, 2 years experience needed.
If a prospective Novice or Tech met the distance or disability criteria of a Conditional, s/he could get the test by mail, otherwise, they had to go to an FCC exam session. Advanced and Extra tests were only available at FCC exam sessions regardless of distance or disability.
IOW, in 1951 FCC made getting into ham radio easier, but made full privileges more difficult.
(btw, ARRL opposed the new Extra license back then, saying Advanced was adequate as the top license.)
Of course a number of hams scrambled to get Advanceds before the end of 1952. A few got Extras, just because it was there.
But in mid-Dec. 1952, FCC changed their mind. The new system was retained with one change: Generals and Conditionals got all operating privileges too. So out of the six license classes, four had the same operating privileges.
That state of affairs lasted from Feb 1953 to Nov 1968, when the changes known as "incentive licensing" went into effect. But that's a whole 'nother story.
In 1954, another change took place: FCC reduced the Conditional/Class C distance requirement to 75 miles, and made all routine Novice and Technician licenses by-mail regardless of distance. About the same time, the retest-if-you-move-or-get-better requirement was removed from by-mail licenses.
KB0TXC: "Like I have mentioned before, I remember hearing about an old SK that used to call "CQ ... No lids, kids or space cadets, Class A operators only"."
That was Mike, W2OY, a big AM signal on 75 in WNY.
KB0TXC: "The space cadets referred to modes other than AM and the Class A was something to do with pre-incentive license class (or so I have read)."
Lids referred to hams who didn't have his experience. Which was a lot of folks.
Kids referred to young hams, who had entered ham radio in large numbers after WW2. Many had started as Novices, which was an easier entry than straight-to-General. (Some folks still have deep-seeted prejudices against young people in ham radio, even to the point of proposing a minimum age requirement to FCC and making fun of those who became hams as teenagers or younger).
Space cadets referred to voice modes like NBFM and SSB, which began to appear in the 'phone bands in considerable numbers in the late 1940s and early 1950s.
Class A was the old name for Advanced, which was his way of denouncing the new system.
What ol' Mike was so angry about was that all the effort he'd put into getting a Class A was made for-nought by FCC giving full privileges to Generals and even Conditionals, and crowding up his beloved 75 with newbies. He was also ticked off that his full-gallon plate-modulated AM signal (a considerable investment of $, knowhow and homebrew effort) had to compete with all sorts of strange-sounding stuff in the 'phone bands.
The history I wrote has been used (with permission) on a couple of websites. Lots more detail in it; the above are the high points.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 17, 2009
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Quote:
>by W7ETA on March 12, 2009
>>"Why aren't you people begging KB9YKP to return to the air?"
>Myth: There is a group of like minded people calling themselves "You People".
The "You People" I speak of is "people like you" who mock others in an attempt to increase their own significance.
>Myth: The group You People has a spokes person to beg KB9YKP to Please! Please! go back on 2 meter repeaters.
>Myth: someone other than KB9YKP is better at deciding if KB9YKP should go play on 2 meter repeaters.
Because "people like you" won't. Also, if you weren't so intent on flying off the handle, at somebody, anybody, as long as it gave you false sense of power, you'd have "read" that I asked KB9YKP to upgrade, bypass VHF and go straight to HF.
Just a thought, because I'm politically "uncorrected", I use "spokesman" for men in that position and "spokeswoman" for women. Instead of the recently contrived politically corrected "spokeperson". Which, doesn't even show up in the spell checking dictionary in Firefox. Like I said, "just a thought".
/end of line
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 17, 2009
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Hi Jim,
Then is the story about SK Mike W20Y really true about how he died on top of his tower true or is it myth? I remember hearing this story years and years ago that he was so angry because someone had out gunned him during a contest that early the next day he climbed his tower in a huff to adjust his antenna and expired. According to the rendition of this tale that I heard, he was up there quite awhile before being discovered, and that it took the authorities almost all day long to get him down.
73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 17, 2009
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KB0TXC writes: "Then is the story about SK Mike W20Y really true about how he died on top of his tower true or is it myth?"
I don't know for sure. I do know he wasn't a contester, but rather an old-buzzard[1] ragchewer.
[1] In the AM community, this is a style of operating, not an insult.
In the days when AM was *the* phone mode among hams, getting on 'phone was a very different game. Almost any CW transmitter could be made into a 'phone transmitter of sorts by the addition of a modulator, which is really just an audio amplifier. But many simple schemes result in low efficiency of the transmitter, and low quality if not designed and adjusted properly.
Running the legal limit of AM power in the 1000-watts-DC-input days meant a serious investment.
There were only two transmitters made for the amateur market that could do it: the EF Johnson Desk Kilowatt, ($1700 plus freight, and it didn't include an exciter, let alone a a receiver) and the Collins KW-1 (if you have to ask, you can't afford it). This was in the 1950s, when $5000/yr was a good middle-class income.
So most hams who ran the legal limit on AM were homebrewers by necessity. But a homebrew AM kW was a big job, because it meant a 1000 watt input RF final, a 500+ watt output modulator, power supplies for both, and everything rated for continuous duty at that level and at least 3000 watts peak.
While that may not seem like much to broadcasters or military/commercial folks, remember we're talking about something an individual ham built at home with only his own resources.
SSB changed all that, and by the early 1960s it was possible to put a legal-limit SSB station made from kits on a card table for less than $1000. That made folks like W2OY rather unhappy.
btw, here are links to that history I mentioned. It's in three parts:
Part 1:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/5e237c8d619c6a90?hl=en&dmode=source
http://tinyurl.com/6o8bzf
Part 2:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/932c3e0a55b5cfda?hl=en&dmode=source
http://tinyurl.com/6lupxx
Part 3:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/711fd670748942ff?hl=en&dmode=source
http://tinyurl.com/6dosbw
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Aren't We All In This Together? Ham History
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by K6LHA on March 17, 2009
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KB0TXC asked some questions about amateur radio class structure history on 17 Mar 09:
Joe, An excellent source of very readable USA amateur radio history may be found at:
http://ham-shack.com/history.html
Written by Bill Continelli, W2XOY, it is in 35 parts and originally for the Schenectady Museum Amateur Radio Club, starting in 1996. It covers the period 1894 to 1998. The first 21 parts are in chronological order while part 22 and subsequent go into specific areas, ending with the first "Patron Saint of Amateur Radio." Converted to PDF, it forms 84 pages total.
The link above will go to a chronological history list. There is a link at the bottom of that list which jumps to the first part of Bill's "Wayback Machine" articles. To go direct to the first part:
http://ham-shack.com/history01.html
That work is not flavored with the 'sin of by omission' editing common to ARRL histories but fits the histories I've found elsewhere such as Thomas H. White's superb history of ALL USA early radio on the Web, printed historical documents such as "Syntony and Spark" or "The Continuous Wave" of the early days, the very special edition of McGraw-Hill's 50th Anniversary Issue of their biweekly Electronics magazine published on April 17, 1980...or the various articles over the years in the IEEE's Proceedings and Societal Transactions, not to mention a few textbooks, including USN TMs.
Enjoy, Len AF6AY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC9FAC on March 17, 2009
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I agree with the original poster.
For those who complain that he is demanding
instant respect, you miss the point completely.
It is the instant DISRESPECT that so many like
to dish out - simply based on the fact that you
have a recent license - when you have done nothing
to merit it, which is so annoying.
I was told I don't have a "real" license on
a local repeater. My transgression? Just
giving my callsign when checking into a net.
Being called a "cereal box" licensee, a slacker,
a CBer (I never used a CB), a no-code wonder,
a wannabee, etc. grew real old real quick.
And that despite making a good-faith effort to
learn as much as I could, read read read,
listen a lot before getting on the air, etc.
Didn't matter. Real junior high stuff. Actually,
that's an insult to junior-high schoolers. More
like kindergarten stuff.
So what was I supposed to do when I took
my test, demand I be given the test from 1955?
Simply put, ham radio is the most unfriendly
hobby I've ever been involved in. And since
it is something you do voluntarily, for personal
enjoyment, when I realized I wasn't enjoying it,
I sold off everything.
But I went one step further and cancelled
my license. The day that the FCC issued
the formal cancellation was like being
released from the lunatic asylum.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? Ham History
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by K7HV on March 17, 2009
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I enjoyed reading this thread. I have been on quite a few years- (I guess having turned 60, I am an OF!) I always avoided this stuff by sticking to chasing DX, fiddling with antennas and building projects. I stay away from nets -maybe when I am in my 90s and living alone, I will venture into 80 meters and happily join an OF net. I neither seek "respect" nor fall over myself to "give" respect. It is a HOBBY, it is about FUN: There is lots of fun to be had if you can ignore the curmudgeons (sp?)... the trick is not to BECOME one.
Be kind to everyone and the rest will sort itself out - there is lots of space on the bands for all the types of characters that make up ham radio. Having a JA come back to my campsite 2 watts and a wire and I am transported back to age 14 with my Ameco AC-1 working my first QSO... I come close to that level of joy once in awhile, but I never QUITE make it, but even close is good enough. Enjoy- laugh it off and keep plugging away. 73!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 17, 2009
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For what it's worth, I found two actual recordings of W2OY QSOs. He did sound like a cranky old coot. They're combined into a 700Kb MP3 36 seconds long. If someone wants to listen to actual Amateur Radio history from the '50s or '60s, email me
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 17, 2009
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KB0TXC writes: "I consider it the recognition of a very important fact...that there folks that are <NOT> audio learners. I am one of these people. I am a visual-kinesthetic learner. What does that mean? It means that I learn and remember by watching, reading and doing."
I'm the same way, Joe.
KB0TXC: "When some kind soul shows me how to use a grid dip meter, I practice once or twice, and presto, I can use a grid dip meter for the rest of my life. If someone <tells me how> to use a grid dip meter and leaves the thing in my hands and walks away, I will not really know how to use it."
What if someone puts the dipper in your hands and then tells you how to use it, while you do the actions? I bet that method works for you too.
KB0TXC: "Other folks are auditory learners. They learn best by hearing someone describe something to them. They are the best students in a class lesson that does not have reading or laboratory assignments. They remember the radio newscasts from years ago. They are also the ones that master the code. These learners will tell you things like "The code is easy, you just have to apply yourself" or this chestnut, "If you cannot learn the code, you are just being lazy"."
I think it's a lot more complicated than that.
KB0TXC: "I tried for months to learn the code. It was tedious and I always wound up with a headache. I found it to be most unpleasant, and I will probably never attempt use it."
What methods did you use to try to learn it?
KB0TXC: "it is because that there are different neuro-physical learning styles that cannot be changed by the learner, that some find the code to be quite easy, (audio learners) while others find it impossible (visual/kinesthetic learners)."
I don't think that's really true for most people. Sure, some folks learn code more easily than others, but most people *can* learn it if the right methods are used.
If the difference between visual and auditory learners were really so vast, how would the visual learners ever learn to understand the speech? How could they use a telephone, let alone a voice radio? How could they remember songs and appreciate music?
Consider the following experiment:
Suppose you were sitting at a desk with pencil and paper, with headphones on, and over the 'phones you heard a series of clearly spoken words. Your task is to listen to the words and write down the first letter of each. (Each letter has only one word assigned to it).
So you hear the words "tango...alfa...xray...echo.....sierra" and write down "TAXES".
Do you think 50% of the population can't learn to do that?
How about if the words were in a foreign language?
All Morse Code receiving does is to substitute a series of short and long tones for the words.
Of course different people need different learning environments. It seems to me that a person like you would do best in an interactive environment, such as one where you would be given a Morse Code key and would practice sending as much or more as receiving. I can imagine a setup where a computer would generate a Morse Code letter, and your response would be to send it back to the computer with the key. If you did it right, the letter would appear on a screen. If you didn't, the computer would send it again.
And that's just one idea; I have lots more.
Of course you don't have to learn Morse Code; I'm simply pointing out that being a visual learner doesn't mean someone can't learn it. They may just need a different learning environment.
How does a visual learner ever learn to understand speech, if not by auditory learning?
KB0TXC:"Now as far as the rather condescending little statement about 'appliance operators' is concerned, (which is really an insinuation that no code test operators are not technically competent), it is a real fallacy to make such a blanket statement."
YES, IT SURE IS!
And so are statements by some that those who use Morse Code, or vacuum tubes, or some other older technology, are 'luddites', 'retrogrades', or 'can't cut it in the modern world'. It goes both ways.
KB0TXC: "I might not ever use code, and I sure as heck took no code test. However, I have fully restored two Heath tube receivers, and I have an old Heath '401 transmitter that is on the bench waiting for my ministries. The thing is a real mess, and not much more than the cabinet and the transformers are usable. The caps are shot, the numskull that sold it on e-pay claimed it was in working order (when stored away) but strangely the finals were missing), a mouse had lived in it at some point and ruined the wires, and the deck will need to be bead blasted and clear coated (mousey rust). It is really not worth fixing, but I cannot stand to see something like this be thrown away."
Consider that it might become a parts unit to keep other 401s alive. There are lots of them out there; imagine if someone with a pristine one were to pop a power transformer...
KB0TXC: "I would be hard pressed to explain how a state of the art TU works, but I can bore you to death and give you a detailed stage by stage description of how my very vintage TT/L-2 works. I should be able to, as I completely restored and calibrated it. (And Bastet, does it work!)"
I'm not surprised; the one we had at The U was very good.
But how would you feel if someone called your setup a 'kludge', 'junk', 'obsolete', etc., because you'd rather light the heaters, fire up the loop and print on paper rather than just let a computer and some software do the job?
I mean, you can get an older working computer that's RTTY-capable for practically nothing. Add some free software and a few cables and there you are. Much smaller, lighter and quieter. If you want paper, add an inexpensive printer. And it's what almost everyone uses...
KB0TXC: "Whoever built that unit must have worked in the old Western Electric prototype shop, for I have never seen a home built piece of amateur gear that was so professionally put together."
Look up anything built by W2LYH or W3QLV (search the QST archives, several articles by each) for examples of first-class *amateur* homebrewing.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by WILLIATY on March 17, 2009
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As a relatively new ham, I feel exactly the way the OP does. Generally speaking, the hams I have met in person have been friendly and accepting. However, of all the groups I participate in (racing, motorsports, car modification, photography, chainmaille, etc), internet hams have some of the most verbally violent and aggressively hostile members I've ever encountered. It's not all of them, it's not even remotely close to most of them, but it's enough that I dislike using every single internet ham forum I've yet found.
I tend to be a leader amongst the groups I'm involved with. This is carrying over into getting members of other clubs I'm part of involved in to become radio ops. However, I have to make a statement about ham radio I don't make about any other hobby. I have to tell every prospective ham I talk to that he or she needs to find a real-life elmer because the internet forums are too mean to beginners. Before I started giving that warning, I had a couple of friends start studying for their test, post a couple of questions online, and come back and tell me "I don't want to have anything to do with people like that.". That's a major problem for the future of the hobby.
A lot of people seem to be saying "oh, you just have to accept the cranky ones and let them be". The problem is that accepting their behavior makes you an enabler. The people who are abusing other posters need banned permanently.
Again, greater than 90% of active posters are good, helpful people. However, by tolerating the obnoxious ones, those good, helpful people help reinforce the stereotype of the amateur radio hobby as being hostile to newcomers.
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BURNT UP
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by PLANKEYE on March 17, 2009
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Yes Plank eye, I realize that it is just a hobby. For the umteenth time, I am no way connected to the medical profession, other than by dear friend who is a doc. I am not a Navy Seal either...those guys are far better folk than I could ever hope to be. Talk about admiration, they have mine!
___________
Your previous Posts are following you like a leaky can of Lighter Fluid Brother.
Keep Talking
PLANKEYE
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by KB0TXC on March 17, 2009
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N2EY wrote:
<What if someone puts the dipper in your hands and then tells you how to use it, while you do the actions? I bet that method works for you too.>
KB0TXC responds:
That would work too, as long as I can actually practice using it while someone else is explaining it to me. What I would have difficulty with is simply listening to someone describe how to use it and handing it to me (as in say a purchase), then leaving me to my own devices.
N2EY wrote:
<I think it's a lot more complicated than that.>
KB0TXC responds:
Yes it is much more complicated. I way oversimplified in my previous post. Mastery of a language is one of if not the most difficult thing for a human to do. Code (CW) is a language, and requires much time and effort to acquire. When one thinks about anything that the human brain has to be called upon to do, including mathematical operations, real time language use is probably the most complex thing to do. One has to receive (hear) the language, comprehend the meaning of what is heard (this in itself is hugely complicated, and no one has really figured out how it is done), formulate a response and then send the response using another terribly complicated process of generating speech. All in real time, instantly (well, with the lag time of the nerves, milliseconds at the most).
N2EY wrote:
<What methods did you use to try to learn it?>
KB0TXC responds:
Well, the very first (as a teen) was to buy a book on code as well as a practice oscillator and cheap straight key from radio shack, and listened to the bands as well as the practice transmissions. That was a disaster.
The next thing I tried was to buy Wayne Green's code tapes, which he said would allow a complete numskull to learn code. Well, I love ole' Wayne, but I must disagree with him on his claims about those tapes as well as his promotion of things that I consider medical quackery and possibly dangerous. His tapes would be very good practice for someone who already knows code who is trying to gain speed, but not for a rank beginner. The best system that I have seen to date is something called code quick. I am not sure who developed it, but it uses all of the learning methods, audio, visual, kinesthetic, as well as practice. I do actually to this day remember all of the CW code, and I can (believe it or not) actually send fairly decent code if I use a keyer. (I stink with a straight key.) Of course, I send slow, because I really have no context in which to use code. My main problem is in receiving the code. Once I start to copy code, I can get the first few letters, but then it is down hill from there. It all starts to 'run together' and becomes impossible for me to continue. If I keep at it, as I said, I get a huge headache. Believe me, I tried many times with much effort to become proficient with the code to pass the 5 WPM test, but could never quite get there. It was not for lack of trying.
N2EY asked:
<If the difference between visual and auditory learners were really so vast, how would the visual learners ever learn to understand the speech?>
KB0TXC tries to answer, but probably will not do well:
This is the million dollar question, and some of the best minds in the world have studied this for their entire professional lives. It does seem that there is an 'age of language acquisition' that starts (for a normal healthy baby) shortly before they are born. The baby hears their mother's voice in the womb and recognizes that voice after they are born. From the time that a little one starts to make their first 'ma ma, da da' words, changes happen in the brain that accelerate the language process many fold. A child can learn their native language (those that study this call it the child's L1)as well as a second or more languages (L2, L3, etc) up until what is called the 'critical age' (right around 11 or so) without an accent. After that critical age, second language acquisition is still possible, but very difficult, and the native accent is rarely if ever overcome. For audio learners, second language learning is *relatively* easy (still quite the difficult task though) and for folk with other learning styles, a second language is far more difficult to master.
(Yes Plank-AI, this is one area that I am quickly becoming an "expert" as you would say...)
I would agree with Jim's argument that most anybody that is relatively 'normal' (I cannot define normal, but I think that what I am trying to say is evident) can copy the phonetic alphabet. Alpha Tango Charley is spoken relatively slow (compared to CW), and there is no real decoding involved with phonetics. (Actually there is, but it is a very deep decoding that occurs almost subconsciously...as is CW with those that are proficient at it...but almost everyone knows the words ALPHA TANGO CHARLEY and understands that to be A-T-C, where as /.- / - / -.-. / is a lot harder to master, because one has to in real time not only process the tones, but then decode them and transfer that to the part of the brain that can 'think' about them, and then direct the other hand to write the copy down. This is extremely complicated.)
Needless to say I do admire someone who can copy code. It is a real skill, one that I do not possess. I have never called anyone a Luddite or an Old Fart because they use code. Hell, I like old fashioned communication modes and equipment as well, I simply cannot effectively use code.
What raises my hackles and to be honest tick me off is when someone uses code proficiency as a means to belittle someone else for not having that ability, and for demeaning those who do not have a "real" FCC license because they did not have to demonstrate code proficiency to use the amateur spectrum.
N2EY wrote:
<And so are statements by some that those who use Morse Code, or vacuum tubes, or some other older technology, are 'luddites', 'retrogrades', or 'can't cut it in the modern world'. It goes both ways.>
KB0TXC responds: I agree completely with this. Again, I do (despite Plank-AIs little twitters) have a lot of admiration for those that do use CW. Those older generation amateurs who developed the civilian versions of analog RTTY demodulation without any computer or microprocessors were in my opinion amazing. The TT/L-2 is a case in point. I would love to know who built my unit. If I did, I would submit an article to QST about it as it is one of the best home made pieces of gear that I have ever seen. A true technical work of art. I would never consider someone an "Old Fart" who uses CW, as long as they do not call me "dumbed down" or a "box top licensee" in turn.
N2EY wrote:
<But how would you feel if someone called your setup a 'kludge', 'junk', 'obsolete', etc., because you'd rather light the heaters, fire up the loop and print on paper rather than just let a computer and some software do the job?>
Again, I hope that I have not given the impression that I look down on an amateur because they use code. What I do have problems with are those that are angry at the world because now those who do not use code can become an amateur radio operator. As I have said, I have great admiration for those that can copy code. I might have mentioned in another thread that I knew an old Navy 'sparks' that could listen to the code, copy with one hand on paper and send with the other at some ridiculously fast rate of speed.
There is another old amateur that I really feel has contributed much to the hobby (and I hope that he is not SK) is W2FMI. His short verticals are legendary. The trapped short vertical (4BTV) that I just installed has been around for over forty years, and is a result of his original work.
And there is Jim N2EY whom I am responding to here...someone who is very proficient with CW, yet he is willing to communicate with me even though I do not possess the CW ability, and even though I have a "welfare license" as N4TTS likes to proclaim. You will never hear me refer to N2EY as an Old Fart or any other non-endearing term because he is a gentleman and a good amateur op. His views on the CW requirement or lack thereof has not interfered with his willingness to communicate with me or others with a "welfare ticket".
All that I ask is not to be put down because I do not use a key. If an operator does not want to talk with me because of any perceived shortcoming on my part due to my license, that is fine, we are at least for now a free country and I would not impose myself on anyone who would not want to talk with me. But if someone gets on a public forum and puts down no code test operators simply because they are no code test operators, then I will respond in kind (though not on the air as I do not approve of ungentlemanly conduct over the air...I will just ID to keep legal and turn the big knob).
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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The Plank-AI
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by KB0TXC on March 17, 2009
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Twitter, oh twitter,
The Plank's aflitter,
With words of unwisdom,
But that's just a 'piter'
Because he's a judge
Forked comments anudge,
Safe behind a mask
My character to smudge
Never ask him why
As he sits on high
Clever little posts from
Our delicate butterfly!
Come on Plank,
If you are going to pass judgment on me, at least use a real name for Bastet's sake. Even that old-fart sourpuss N4TTS uses a name!
73
Joe KB0TXC
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Tomorrow's activities for this "welfare licen
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by KB0TXC on March 17, 2009
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Tomorrow it is supposed to be in the mid sixties here at the QTH, so I thought that I would do a little antenna maintenance. All but one of my antennas are home built, and unfortunately, since I do not have the skills nor the equipment to weld or braze aluminum, I built them out of copper and sliver soldered them.
I will retrieve my J-pole and shine it up with Scotch Brite and clear coat it again. It should last another few years. Next, I will remove my 6 meter loop and give it to the kid next door to take to the recycle facility. (I do not work six meters much, and that antenna was a bust from the start.) Then I will inspect all of my connectors, re-seal if necessary and button up the feed lines. The receiving 'long wire' had a branch fall on it last December, so I really ought to tighten that back up before the spring storms hit.
My antenna goal this year is to build a decent two meter three element Yagi. I know that antenna design and building is not all that technically challenging, but if I were just an appliance operator and had no technical ability, then I would just whip out the old plastic and order a couple new antennas (and no, that is not a put down of those that do buy commercial antennas...)
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W5ESE on March 18, 2009
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> I was told I don't have a "real" license on
> a local repeater. My transgression? Just
> giving my callsign when checking into a net.
I think the quality of experience you get as a new
radio amateur depends in large part on where you
live.
I'm in central Texas; am fairly active, and have
never heard anything that remotely resembles this
on the repeaters in my area.
73
Scott
W5ESE
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 18, 2009
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Wow, Monty Python would be envious of the gloating on this site. Me, me, me, me, me, me...............me.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 18, 2009
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For what it's worth, I found two actual recordings of W2OY QSOs. He did sound like a cranky old coot. They're combined into a 700Kb MP3 36 seconds long. If someone wants to listen to actual Amateur Radio history from the '50s or '60s, email me
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 18, 2009
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The internet service finally came up. I know the subject is already a little stale, but from what I've read about W2OY by someone who was there, he was doing antenna maintenance and even had assistance. He began to feel ill while on his tower, came down and a a short time later collapsed. There was no mention of him feeling it necessary to adjust his antenna because someone else had a stronger signal. he was far more intelligent to know that an adjustment to an already properly deployed antenna would probably not improve being, "outgunned".
/end of line
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by NO6L on March 18, 2009
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Please ignore the post above about the recording, it somehow went through twice just before the service went out and just after it back up.
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We Really Aren't All In This Together
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by K6LHA on March 18, 2009
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KB0TXC posted by 18 Mar 09:
"...All that I ask is not to be put down because I do not use a key. If an operator does not want to talk with me because of any perceived shortcoming on my part due to my license, that is fine, we are at least for now a free country and I would not impose myself on anyone who would not want to talk with me. But if someone gets on a public forum and puts down no code test operators simply because they are no code test operators, then I will respond in kind (though not on the air as I do not approve of ungentlemanly conduct over the air...I will just ID to keep legal and turn the big knob)."
It would seem that we MUST obey our 'betters' because they have the Divine Right of Kings and They RULE. We MUST serve Their personal desires, suppress our own, deny our right to legal options, suppress any opposition view. We MUST do as They say. All Things shall remain as they were when these Supreme Royalists Came to Power. They have so decreed. It is so written in the Psalm Book at the Church of St. Hiram.
Having been around a few years, served my country (with my life if needs be), been interested in many things and done some, remaining active with Life all-embracing, I cannot readily recall many human avocational activities that have such an Extreme Conservatism and self-defined confrontational curmudgeons with ego-boosted self-importance as in USA amteur radio...all for the sake of preserving a Living Museum of Archaic communication skills such as on-off keyed CW.
In one way I regret ever bothering to legally Dare enter their sacred halls of fantasy where They all imagine They Are King of the Retrogrades. On the other hand, I do not regret anything and will continue as I see fit for my personal pleasure, no vassal that serves Their Highnesses, no servitor to freely yield to Them emotional sustenance to nourish Their self-inflated egos. Today's www.handata.com (18 Mar 09) home page has a good truism from "Murphy" worth keeping in mind:
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
73, Len AF6AY
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by PLANKEYE on March 18, 2009
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You fellas just want to argue with someone on this Site.
Len, Joe, Jim, the list is endless. You all just want to argue.
You guys don't care about Ham Radio or the folks involved in it.
Joe took the time to write a Poem for Goodness Sake.
For what, to argue more with me?
Most of you disrespect yourselves more than you disrespect anyone else.
You fellas make about as much sense as a Fair Funnel Cake made out of Lead!!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 18, 2009
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KB0TXC: "That would work too, as long as I can actually practice using it while someone else is explaining it to me. What I would have difficulty with is simply listening to someone describe how to use it and handing it to me (as in say a purchase), then leaving me to my own devices."
Aha!
The defining factor there isn't auditory-vs.-visual. It's active-vs.-passive. You (and I suspect most people) learn much better when actively involved.
Skills pretty much require active involvement. Nobody learns to ride a bike, play a guitar or Morse Code simply by watching others do it and/or reading about it.
KB0TXC:"Mastery of a language is one of if not the most difficult thing for a human to do."
I don't know if that's really true or not. Even if it is, consider that almost all humans manage to do it in a few years. Even those born deaf and blind manage with the right environment. And consider how wide the range of human languages is!
KB0TXC: "Code (CW) is a language, and requires much time and effort to acquire."
While Morse Code has some language-like qualities, it's not a stand-alone language such as Japanese or English. If two people both know Morse Code but don't have a common language, they won't be able to communicate much, if at all.
In my experience, Morse Code skills don't take near as much time and effort to acquire as learning a second language, learning to play a musical instrument or many other skills - *IF* the right learning method for the person is used. Problem is, too many folks spend time and effort on the wrong methods *for them*.
KB0TXC: "Well, the very first (as a teen) was to buy a book on code as well as a practice oscillator and cheap straight key from radio shack, and listened to the bands as well as the practice transmissions. That was a disaster."
I think what happened there was the TMI problem: Too Much Information.
If someone showed you 41 book titles you never heard of before, and expected you to learn them all at once, you'd have a heck of a time. But you could probably learn hundreds of them one at a time.
While the above method can work (it's basically how I learned), what you probably needed was a source of code that started with just two characters and let you learn those in an interactive way before adding anything new.
KB0TXC: "The next thing I tried was to buy Wayne Green's code tapes, which he said would allow a complete numskull to learn code."
Ol' Wayne is the quintessential con man. Enough said.
KB0TXC: "The best system that I have seen to date is something called code quick. I am not sure who developed it, but it uses all of the learning methods, audio, visual, kinesthetic, as well as practice. I do actually to this day remember all of the CW code, and I can (believe it or not) actually send fairly decent code if I use a keyer."
So it really is a question of finding the right learning method! Trouble is, you unfortunately had to expend quite a bit of time, money and effort to find one that worked for you - sort-of.
KB0TXC: "Once I start to copy code, I can get the first few letters, but then it is down hill from there. It all starts to 'run together' and becomes impossible for me to continue."
The way around that is the combined Koch/Farnsworth methods. Used in the G4FON (free download, btw) and other modern software packages.
It works like this:
The Koch method is to start with just two different letters and send them to you randomly. You know that each letter has to be one or the other, your only task is to decide which. The practice continues with just two letters until you reach ~95% accuracy, at which time a third letter is added. Practice continues with just those three until you reach ~95% accuracy again, etc.
The Farnsworth method exaggerates the spaces between letters so that you have more time to think about what you just heard, decide what it was and write or type before getting another letter. Keeps things from running together.
Combined, they're a powerful system. The really sweet thing is that a computer makes an untiring custom trainer.
KB0TXC: "If I keep at it, as I said, I get a huge headache. Believe me, I tried many times with much effort to become proficient with the code to pass the 5 WPM test, but could never quite get there. It was not for lack of trying."
I don't think it was lack of trying either. I think it was lack of the right learning environment *for you*.
Of course while I encourage you to try the G4FON software and actually use Morse Code, I'm not saying "you have to" or anything like that. I'm simply pointing out that I don't think it's really an auditory/visual learning thing.
George Sheehan said many times that "each of us is an experiment of one". Nowhere is that more true than in finding out how each of us learns best.
N2EY:
<If the difference between visual and auditory learners were really so vast, how would the visual learners ever learn to understand the speech?>
KB0TXC: "This is the million dollar question, and some of the best minds in the world have studied this for their entire professional lives. It does seem that there is an 'age of language acquisition' that starts (for a normal healthy baby) shortly before they are born. The baby hears their mother's voice in the womb and recognizes that voice after they are born. From the time that a little one starts to make their first 'ma ma, da da' words, changes happen in the brain that accelerate the language process many fold. A child can learn their native language (those that study this call it the child's L1)as well as a second or more languages (L2, L3, etc) up until what is called the 'critical age' (right around 11 or so) without an accent. After that critical age, second language acquisition is still possible, but very difficult, and the native accent is rarely if ever overcome. For audio learners, second language learning is *relatively* easy (still quite the difficult task though) and for folk with other learning styles, a second language is far more difficult to master."
Again, note that regardless of learning style, almost all humans manage to acquire language despite all sorts of disabilities and abuses (although some need very different learning environments). That says to me that it's something that transcends learning style.
Morse Code, however, is not a language in itself, but rather a way of expressing a language. So I don't think the same factors apply the same way. But the different-learning-environment thing applies even more so.
KB0TXC: "Needless to say I do admire someone who can copy code. It is a real skill, one that I do not possess."
Well, you don't have it to a very great degree, but you do have a little of it.
KB0TXC: "I have never called anyone a Luddite or an Old Fart because they use code."
Of course not. But others have called me that and much more, simply for using it, liking it and promoting it.
KB0TXC: "What raises my hackles and to be honest tick me off is when someone uses code proficiency as a means to belittle someone else for not having that ability, and for demeaning those who do not have a "real" FCC license because they did not have to demonstrate code proficiency to use the amateur spectrum."
Again, that works both ways. You should see some of the names I've been called for having a few code skills!
As for "real" license, did you see my post a day or two back about the different requirements for Extra in 1970, 1980, 1960, etc.? Which is the "real" Extra, anyway?
N2EY: <And so are statements by some that those who use Morse Code, or vacuum tubes, or some other older technology, are 'luddites', 'retrogrades', or 'can't cut it in the modern world'. It goes both ways.>
KB0TXC: "I agree completely with this."
TNX
N2EY: <But how would you feel if someone called your setup a 'kludge', 'junk', 'obsolete', etc., because you'd rather light the heaters, fire up the loop and print on paper rather than just let a computer and some software do the job?>
KB0TXC: "Again, I hope that I have not given the impression that I look down on an amateur because they use code."
No, you haven't.
My point in that last bit was to show that almost anything can be made into an object of ridicule by those who don't happen to appreciate it.
KB0TXC: "What I do have problems with are those that are angry at the world because now those who do not use code can become an amateur radio operator."
There will always be those who are angry at the world about SOMETHING. Kind of like the person who spent $2000 for a computer 10 years ago being mad at the person who spent $500 for one today. Or the person who waited years to become a ham resenting the one who did so as a teenager.
As you said, the thing to do is to turn the big knob away from such folks.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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YAWN
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by KB0TXC on March 18, 2009
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Butterfly:
<Len, Joe, Jim, the list is endless. You all just want to argue.>
Joe:
Nope...Just stating my opinion like everyone else, including you!
Butterfly:
<You guys don't care about Ham Radio or the folks involved in it.>
Joe: WOW! Long distance judgment of my character once again. Amazing. But you are right about one thing. I do not care about 'Ham Radio" as I do not eat meat. However, I do care about the Amateur Radio Service.
Butterfly:
<Joe took the time to write a Poem for Goodness Sake.>
Joe:
No big deal. That little bit of verse really sucks. I would not even call it a poem, just a funny. I wrote it on the fly in five minutes. Most of my verse I work on for weeks before letting them see the light of day.
Butterfly:
<For what, to argue more with me?>
Joe:
Could care less about arguing with you. Just find it amusing. Life amuses me. What is so humorous is that you think that I actually get upset with you, that this is really of a life or death concern to me. Actually, interacting with you is a little diversion from the teaching, studying, writing, academic arse kissing, etc and etc. This week, I have a publisher on my back for my approval of galley drafts, a major lesson to give tomorrow, and yet another big presentation to give in front of some of the big names in my field. On top of that I must start to plan for my trip overseas next month where I will be interviewed by several faculty division chairmen there for possible admittance for further Ph.D studies.
Butterfly:
<Most of you disrespect yourselves more than you disrespect anyone else.>
Joe:
Well, well well well...Another long distance psychological evaluation of my psyche based on a handful of posts on an internet forum by an anonymous character judge named of all things 'Plankeye'. The irony of that name and your judgment of other folks motives and character is not lost upon me.
Tell you what Plank-AI... Why don't you let Len, Jim and I argue amongst ourselves and with others that we may interact with, and you keep your little character diagnoses to yourself until you feel brave enough to use a real name when posting said comments. As far as respect is concerned, though I will NEVER EVER get in between their disagreements, I have quite a bit of respect for both of them as well as their acheivements. I am sure (and NO, I am not being sarcastic) that you have accomplished something that is perfectly wonderful (again, I am not being sarcastic)as most people have in life bar maybe mass murderers or child molesters or sickos of that ilk. Why not tell us about an accomplishment of yours along with a real name...even though we still most likely will disagree on just about everything, a real name and something to tell us about that is associated with that name will garner a whole lot (bad English alert here) respect than a handle and one line comments.
Best
Joe KB0TXC
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by N2EY on March 18, 2009
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Plankeye writes: "You fellas just want to argue with someone on this Site."
No we don't!
Plankeye: "Len, Joe, Jim, the list is endless. You all just want to argue."
Not at all.
Plankeye: "You guys don't care about Ham Radio or the folks involved in it."
Well, I do. Joe, KB0TXC seems to as well.
We're not arguing, either. We're discussing. While KB0TXC and I do not agree on many things, you don't see us calling each other names or tossing insults at each other. There's mutual respect and civil behavior.
Plankeye: "Joe took the time to write a Poem for Goodness Sake.
For what, to argue more with me?"
Didn't you like his poem?
KB0TXC: "Most of you disrespect yourselves more than you disrespect anyone else.
You fellas make about as much sense as a Fair Funnel Cake made out of Lead!!"
How can someone disrespect themselves?
Funnel cakes are flavorless junk food, anyway (IMHO). For that much sugar I'll take pizzelles.
73 de Jim, N2EY
"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once..."
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by K6LHA on March 18, 2009
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N2EY LECTURED us on 18 Mar 09:
"My point in that last bit was to show that almost anything can be made into an object of ridicule by those who don't happen to appreciate it."
Such as "no-coders" or those that didn't do as YOU did?
..............
N2EY: "There will always be those who are angry at the world about SOMETHING."
What is YOUR 'something?' Is it that you lost all those bragging rights when the code test was eliminated? Is it finding folks who will NOT obey your Directives and (gasp!) talk back to you? Or could it possibly be that there are those who want PROGRESS in hobby activities instead of holding fast to REGRESS?
..............
N2EY: "Kind of like the person who spent $2000 for a computer 10 years ago being mad at the person who spent $500 for one today."
My complete Apple ][+ setup cost me about $2800 in 1979 (30 years ago). My eMachines PC cost $350 at Office Depot during a special sale there over a year ago. Who are you talking about? Some other no-coder? Oh, and I could easily scan both old and recent sales receipts and send a copy if you insist. [money, money, money seem to be three things you are angry about as
not having enough of...]
..............
N2EY: "Or the person who waited years to become a ham resenting the one who did so as a teenager."
Someone like that giving you troubly, binky? I never cared to go for any AMATEUR test until January 2007...well into retirement for me. :-) Sorry, binky, I was busy being a Pro all those years, having fun and making money at the same time. Oh, and I BEGAN big-time HF communications before you were a teenager, in fact before you were ever born.
Gee...the only 'teenagers' I 'resent' are the smart-ass ones who haven't learned respect for anyone but their own Gang...plus a few so-called adults who never grew up from junior high adolescent attitudes. <shrug>
..............
N2EY: "As you said, the thing to do is to turn the big knob away from such folks."
Jimmy wanna play with his 'big knob'?!?
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? Ham History
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by KB0TXC on March 18, 2009
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Thank you Len for the link. I did enjoy reading some of the history of the Amateur Radio Service. Those early radio men were amazing. I have even heard of at least a small handful that were experimenting with tube construction in the very early radio era.
Today, if anyone is interested, there is a French gentleman that builds his own triodes. They actually work. A Google search will find videos of him actually building these tubes. What is really cool is that at the end of the video, it shows him testing a tube and plotting the curves.
The only problem with the video is that there are no subtitles, and I only know enough French to get into trouble with.
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by N2EY on March 19, 2009
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WD4ABO writes: "Sounds like you and I look at fellow “new hams” in much the same way. You know ya gotta start somewhere. Many older more experienced hams helped me and I’m grateful for that. I feel the best legacy I can leave them is to pass on what I can to the next generation. It is what they did for me."
I agree and well said!
One small comment, though: Sometimes an older (in age) ham isn't as experienced or knowledgeable as a younger one.
WD4ABO: "We can have differences of opinion about different aspects of the hobby."
Of course - the big question is how those differences are expressed.
I think perhaps the biggest problem in this whole aren't-we-in-this-together issue is the tendency of *some* hams to paint with too broad a brush. An OT sees a new ham do something really dumb and talks as if *all* new hams are like that. A new ham gets a nasty reception from a self-proclaimed old-timer about some test or other and says those OTs are all like that. And the cycle feeds itself.
What's really happening is that a small group of unpleasant *individuals* are simply looking for attention or airing their own personal gripes.
WD4ABO: "I still believe CW and AM for that matter are outdated."
Well, we must have different definitions of "outdated", then, because I don't think either mode is outdated. Not for amateur radio, anyway, which is what we're talking about.
WD4ABO: "Other modes can carry more information more efficiently"
That depends on how you define "efficiently", though. There's spectrum efficiency, energy efficiency, equipment efficiency, etc. All different measures.
WD4ABO: "but does that mean we should abandon those? No."
Exactly.
There's also "fun efficiency" - what does a ham enjoy doing?
WD4ABO: "There is a certain art form in a CW operator’s style. I’ll venture to speculate that even if it is not a requirement some will pick up CW and thrive with it."
The end of Morse Code testing may actually usher in an increase in Morse Code *use*, if it is promoted more.
WD4ABO: "Nothing sounds quite like a finely tuned plate modulated AM signal where the voice sounds like Hi-Fi FM. SSB didn’t kill the mode. It’s still there creating interest in another generation of hams."
Yes, it is. For some reason, AM operation tends to be more laid-back, more mellow, less competitive than other voice modes. At least around here, AM seems to draw the friendly roundtable discussion where a person can get an idea going and tell a story without being pushed to hurry up. While the mode may take up many kHz of a band, the kHz-per-ham-in-the-conversation can be quite low.
And of necessity, a lot of AMers are homebrewer/restorer/modifiers who know their rigs top to bottom, be they pre-WW2 vintage or the newest PWM solid-state final.
WD4ABO: "But this is still a hobby."
I disagree! I say amateur radio is much more than "a hobby", and that we do ourselves a disservice by using that word. Doesn't mean we're "professionals" or in competition with them, just that we're in a different category. We're amateurs - we do radio for its own sake. As an end in itself, rather than a means to another end. That makes us different from all other radio services.
WD4ABO: "Yes ham do provide the best “public service” at little to no cost to our government better that can be obtained anywhere. The Cell phone companies said they could do it but I think that has been easily debunked."
All depends on the situation. There are plenty of public service situations where cell phones or other commercial comms do the job better. But sometimes Amateur Radio can make a real contribution. And that makes it more than a hobby.
WD4ABO: "I think the ARRL’s Amateur code said it best. Written in 1928 by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA. Some ideas are timeless."
Agreed!
"The Radio Amateur is
CONSIDERATE...never knowingly operates in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others.
LOYAL...offers loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local clubs, and the American Radio Relay League, through which Amateur Radio in the United States is represented nationally and internationally.
PROGRESSIVE...with knowledge abreast of science, a well-built and efficient station and operation above reproach.
FRIENDLY...slow and patient operating when requested; friendly advice and counsel to the beginner; kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit.
BALANCED...radio is an avocation, never interfering with duties owed to family, job, school or community.
PATRIOTIC...station and skill always ready for service to country and community."
Yep. Note the term at the end of "Friendly": "the amateur spirit".
WD4ABO: "I’m not perfect and at times I haven’t lived up to those. Maybe these are the standards we need to remind ourselves of often and better yet follow to provide an example by deeds. Sure can’t hurt. Reminds me of another saying “Lead by Example.”"
Exactly!
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by KJ4DJF on March 19, 2009
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Conformity or diversity. This seems to be the root of the issue.
The traditionalists demand conformity to their tradition. They run in packs.
The diverse individual, can be compared to lone wolves that conform to no pack. Pack animals never have liked lone wolfs.
Anyway, my call sign - KK4ASS - usually lets me know immediately if a group is accepting of diversity or not.
hi hi
73,
KK4ASS
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by KB9RQZ on March 19, 2009
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you know Jim N2EY it would have been nice is you applied the amateur code to me when we first met on RRAP about 10 years ago
as to other suggesting you leave it all behind gee with the net you just can't do that. email and hf follow you around like puppies for bettr or worse I was still getting harrasing email from someone whosoe signal I could not decode 8 years and ths did not have a QSO since i could never make up his call or mine ( a freind and i were working on his CW I sending receiveing with a PC local signal but prop was alowing 6 m out of the area we were well of the normal areas for CW too. this guys was determined that I had to be able to make him out I simply could not decode his signal his kept shifting show the machnine would not lock so I know from my friend who it was I could work I aseked to let us get to what we were doing . he refused then we tried to QSY he followed
why did I finaly stop hearing hearing from this jerk i jan of this year? simple he expired , not his license it is still valid in the database but he became "biologicaly chalange" and SK
OTOH he did not become an Sk till after he got some of his still living friend to keep up the attacks on me from that inability to read his signal
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? comments II
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 19, 2009
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The people this must keep from joining this hobby..........amazing
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? Ham History
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by K6LHA on March 19, 2009
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KB0TXC posted (about ham history) on 19 Mar 09:
"Thank you Len for the link. I did enjoy reading some of the history of the Amateur Radio Service. Those early radio men were amazing. I have even heard of at least a small handful that were experimenting with tube construction in the very early radio era."
For some reason there is a great interest in home-construction of components that are next to impossible for the average home workshopper to complete. Vacuum tubes require VERY low-pressure internal 'hollowness.' VERY VERY low to be successful. Then there is the problem of residual and trapped gasses which must be removed. Oh, the various old tube manuals "tell all about it" AS IF anyone could do it. Anyone who has participated in deep vacuum experiments/research will tell you it isn't as simple as it looks. I've only been IN a small shop that made specialty CRTs around 42 years ago...not many employees but LOTS of special equipment.
But, why stop at vacuum tubes? Why not go out and dig up copper-bearing ore, smelt it, melt it to draw it out into wire, then insulate it? Or dissolve it suitable for electro-plating, deposit it on an ultra-smooth roller so that it can be peeled off as foil for PCB construction? Simple, yes? Why we can all READ about it described in a few pages...
Anyone can wind a coil, right? Yes, the cylindrical type IS easy. Toroidal structures aren't that easy; I've only done a few hundred of those myself. [gee, if a 'newbie, novice, know-nothing ham' can do it, it must be very easy, yes?]
Tubular capacitors can be made from scratch (actually metal foil and some mylar film) at home but full encapsulation with wire leads, suitable for point-to-point wiring, will be a problem. Want disc ceramics? Not a problem. All you need is a moderate-high-temperature kiln and a way to deposit metal films on the formed, fired ceramic substrate...and a few thousand hours of your own time fiddling with everything until you approximate some semblance of reproducibility. Want silver-mica caps for HF and up? No problem, just get some mica and split it (very, very carefully), then deposit (somehow) silver on it (your choice of method) and figure out a way to get those wire-up leads on it.
Want old-style metal chassis? Not a problem, just choose steel or aluminum. Wanna get your own aluminum ore and smelt it? Not a problem for hams...they all know about electricity and can, from 'old TV sets or microwave oven' parts make an arc furnace to get the high temperatures necessary to separate the aluminum and oxygen in the ore. That's done in Canada every working day. Must be at a remote smelting place there...the QRM from all those arcs must be fierce.
Now, in several lifetimes of 'hobby' work, one can MAKE EVERYTHING for a ham radio set. All at home, provided one has a fortune to spend for capital equipment to make it all. "Kick in place, hammer shut, and weld." "No problem."
Or, one can shop around for parts and get them very soon, made to advertized specifications. A few years ago I stocked up on 1/4 W resistors by the 100-piece lots of 5% values from Allied Radio. Cost was around a penny apiece (roughly, exact price needs me to check out filing cabinet and mess up my ordered files but, offhand, I remember a more-exact price of 1.2 cents each). Note: some 'critics' in here DEMAND exactness...:-)
.................
KB0TXC: "Today, if anyone is interested, there is a French gentleman that builds his owntriodes. They actually work. A Google search will find videos of him actually building these tubes. What is really cool is that at the end of the video, it shows him testing a tube and plotting the curves."
"There's no business like show business...(etc)." Soon to be a Blu-Ray DVD?
The Follies Bergere is closing in Las Vegas, too. [Business news in today's L.A. Times] No more fantasy of unsatisfied males dreaming about not-G-Rated escapades with beateous women (or men for some tastes) in Las Vegas.
..................
All of the above is a distinct departure from the original article subject which concerns the Absolute Conservative Amateur Radio Torquemada-wannabes who once hungered for a Group to belong to in their youth versus the Free Thinkers and Yearners for Options To Do As Is A Legal Personal Choice. The Absolute, Rigid-Traditionalists are Demanding the Right to Rule in this forum and to have ALL OBEY THEM. They just want to "round up the usual suspects" and toss them in the pokey.
So, lots of hams are dreaming of their chance to become 'radio pioneers' in this new millennium. Problem is they are quite out of date and wayyyyy past their time. Predecessors about three generations or more before them already did that pioneering. Yet they want to BE those pioneers and adhere rigidly to standards and practices of yesteryear, demanding that all others do the same. I don't see that as productive. I see USA amateur radio as a HOBBY, not a repository of exhibits in a Living Museum of Archaic Radio Skills. EVERYONE should have their own OPTIONS.
Oh, and nice try at defusing the rancor in here. Too bad it didn't work out that way...
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? Ham History
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by N2EY on March 19, 2009
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KB0TXC writes: "there is a French gentleman that builds his own triodes. They actually work. A Google search will find videos of him actually building these tubes. What is really cool is that at the end of the video, it shows him testing a tube and plotting the curves."
Yep - it can be done! But he's not the first.
Back in April, 1965, there was a QST article by a fellow who made his own tubes, too. He started out rebuilding tubes and graduated to making his own.
I'm into homebrew radio, but not that much!
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? Ham History
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by KB6QXM on March 19, 2009
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Think about this perspective.
If the FCC would have left everything alone. Theory testing, the older license structure and the CW requirment, there would not be two sides of the fence and this back and forth between the old-school hams and the new hams.
I partly blame the FCC for their no budget for ham radio mindset, the ARRL for their greedy intention of obtaining new membership at any cost, the whiners for whining that they have some inability to learn theory or the code or the lack of disipline to make it happen and lastly the equipment vendors for pressuring all of the above just to make the almighty $$$.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together? Ham History
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by N2EY on March 19, 2009
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KB6QXM writes: "If the FCC would have left everything alone. Theory testing, the older license structure and the CW requirment, there would not be two sides of the fence and this back and forth between the old-school hams and the new hams."
I think you may be right. But FCC did make the changes, and there's no going back.
KB6QXM: "I partly blame the FCC for their no budget for ham radio mindset,"
OK so far,
KB6QXM: "the ARRL for their greedy intention of obtaining new membership at any cost,"
Why?
It wasn't ARRL's idea to print Bash books, eliminate the sending test, publish the question pools, ceate medical waivers or many of the other changes. FCC did those things, not ARRL.
KB6QXM: "the whiners for whining that they have some inability to learn theory or the code or the lack of disipline to make it happen"
Learning a new skill isn't just a matter of discipline; it also takes a learning environment that works for the person. (see my earlier post to KB0TXC)
KB6QXM: "and lastly the equipment vendors for pressuring all of the above just to make the almighty $$$."
It worked for them, didn't it? How many hams do you know who have homebrew amateur radio stations (besides me, that is)...
You're forgetting the folks who are most responsible for it, though: the administrations that have chronically underfunded the FCC, and who have pushed the agendas of deregulation and trickle-down/supply-side economics on us for the past ~29 years.
They're the ones who forced the changes.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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It's all in the approach
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by WN3R on March 19, 2009
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I've been a ham for 50 years and I hang out with the really serious hams - the contesters and DX'ers (Big GUNS). I make it very clear that I want to learn from them and I expect them to teach me. My dad said, "It's a smart man that knows his limitations." I am in awe of these guys and happy to LISTEN in on all their conversations. I can't learn much when I'm doing the talking. So it's all in how you look at it. Keep listening and learning. Ask lots of questions. The experienced hams like it when you ask them questions. We meet monthly and I love going to those meetings. I come with my problems and they give me solutions. What could be better? Now if I wanted to impress these guys, I would certainly fail. The point I want to make is that everything is relative. I may have been licensed for a long time, but I've not accomplished much in the way of awards and operating skills. I'm working on changing that.
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Passing the test is just the beginning
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by WN3R on March 19, 2009
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Check out my letter to QST in the February issue.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KF4LQI on March 20, 2009
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Regarding KS7OSV's comment about getting snubbed by the so called "elite" of the hobby I must say that in a whole orchard full of apples...or in the case of my QTH state of Fl...oranges, there will a be a certain few that are rotten. So my advice to you Terry is just sort out the rotten ones and go on with making marmalade out of the good ones. Every hobby has a few bad eggs, ones that think they are superior beings. If one were to look at societies throughout history, it's always been the ways of the more experienced or so called, to put down the ways of it's younger generations. I also besides being a ham, am a 1/8scale RC off road racer. one of my friends has been into this for a while. There is also a guy in the club who has a kazillion $$$ and has the best and the fastest of everything and my friend still beats the pants off of him with 15yr old cars. But as well as in ham radio there are also very good "Elmers" that are willing to lend you parts and all of the advice to get you started.. Please don't leave the hobby.That's what the curmudgeons want you to do. Leaving the hobby would give them satisfaction. Hope to catch you on 20 or 40 someday.73 tony KF4LQI
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K9FON on March 20, 2009
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Dont let the grumps get to you. Quitting the hobby lets the grumps win. I have had my share of run ins on the air and with some of the grumps in person, but i still manage to get on the air on HF every day. Im not into the 2 meter thing like i used to be because i get bored talking to the same guys every day.
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RE: Passing the test is just the beginning
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by N2EY on March 21, 2009
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WN3R writes: "Check out my letter to QST in the February issue."
I did! And I agree with most of it.
A few comments:
The license you got back in 1958 at age 12 was probably the Novice, right? (Same as the license I got in 1967 at age 13).
The old Novice was a minimalist license. 5 wpm code, 20 question written exam that was mostly about regulations, operating practice and very basic theory.
But the old Novice had very very limited privileges, and was a one-shot thing only good for a year or two. It really was "a license to learn".
Yes, passing the test really is just the beginning.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by RADIO123US on March 21, 2009
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KC9FAC said "I was told I don't have a "real" license on a local repeater. My transgression? Just giving my callsign when checking into a net. "
I'm not sure we are getting the WHOLE story here...did you try checking in when net control said "no more check-ins"...was there something else happening on the net to prevent check-ins. I have ALOT of trouble believing you would get this on a "local repeater", since no-code folks have had access to VHF/UHF bands for a VERY long time. I tend to think you may have done something that wasn't within in protocol of the net, and were probably lectured for it. ...is that closer to the truth ????
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KC2HSU on March 21, 2009
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I have been an amateur radio operator since March 2001 when I was thirteen years old. In my area, I was the only young ham at the time. I was very passionate about the hobby and I was active on many of the local 2m repeaters. Some of the amateur radio community provided me with a warm welcome but there were many who did not want me on the air. Every time I did something involving amateur radio someone was advising me that it was wrong or “illegal” which was never the case. In fact, most of the comments made were personal opinions. As a new ham you always have much to learn but experienced amateurs need to have patience and remember that they were new once too. We need to create acceptance for new hams and discontinue negative feelings such as, “You didn’t have to take Morse code so you’re not a real ham.” My response would be, “Well you are not active in APRS so you’re not a real ham.” My point should be obvious; Morse code is just another mode and not all amateurs are interested so why should they be forced to learn it? Let’s expand interest in Morse code and encourage amateurs to learn it but let’s not limit those who have attributed large amounts of time to the hobby just because they can’t grasp Morse code. I have participated in many public service events and I have volunteered a large amount of time to Amateur radio so to limit me because of my non-existent interest in Morse code is illogical and after the requirement was dropped, I obtained my general. The FCC says that I am a ham regardless of anyone’s opinions anyways. Either way, my whole experience was very discouraging but then I was brought to a meeting of the Madison Oneida Amateur Radio Club. What I found within this group were amateurs who encouraged me. In fact, I eventually became President at a young age and I held many different positions afterwards. Currently I am still active and I have developed an informational Tech Net that continues to receive compliments and high levels of participation. I was also lucky to meet local hams who put effort into keeping me interested, one of them being Tony KG2BV.
Now that I am almost 22 years old, those who tried to discourage me at first communicate with me more than ever. Some of those individuals have called me on the air to discuss and compliment my successes and accomplishments.
This is a very long thread but to put it simply, being young in Amateur radio isn’t always the easiest but it is possible to prove yourself and experience amazing accomplishments. You may not be accepted at first but stay with it because eventually great rewards may come your way.
Chris KC2HSU
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 21, 2009
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To N2EY
I am replying back to your question to me about half a mile back in the replies. You asked me what happened the day at the exam site? I took all 3 tests in one day. I missed one question between 3 exams. I passed technician and general, and then told them I would like to take the extra. Condescendingly they told me how hard it was, and how many times I would have to take it to pass. When I passed the extra, the oldest fart VE of which there were four there exclaimed he did it, I can't believe we are letting people do this. He was pissed off. One of the other ve's told me he got 7 wrong after 3 tries to pass his extra exam, let alone doing all the exams in one day. One of the other ve's didn't even talk to me, he walked away. One ve came up to me shook my hand and congratulated me. As it turns out, no one has ever done this before at their club site.
Well after 40 years of swl experience, some c.b. experience, and monitoring of airwaves, the technician test was a joke to me. The general was like high school electronics, and the extra took all the work. At my test session people couldn't pass the technician test????? I understand electronics, but I have little mechanical ability.
Not all of us are blessed with living circumstances in life with that mega-station. So I and many others do the best we can with what we can work out. When I was a teenager I was in c.b. An amateur radio operator helped me design my antenna system, filter out the tvi, which was plenty and a really good education, learn about standing waves and transmission lines, and propagation. Naturally I had nearly no money for this adventure, so I had to build, and my parents were against all of it, but I had an uncle by marriage who was an amateur operator and he reamed my old man for being such an asshole. So I got to operate c.b. I met another c.b./ amateur operator on the other end of town who was close to my age group. They were good years, and good learning experiences I never forget, and still cherish with found memories. I had a chance to go to a class to get a amateur license during these years. It cost $5, and my parents forbid me to go because 1) it cost $5 2) more radio will raise their electric bill. Pretty sad isn't it? So a 100 years later I live my dream to get snubbed? Who needs it!
By snubbing people for their stations, and the current licensing standards, is just wrong. When you wake up some day and have lost parts of your spectrum because of chasing anyone away from the hobby, I will be holding your crying towels for you guys.
I still laugh about the guy who posted on here about showing off his amateur station to some teenagers. After trying to call a friend of his on 40 meters for the demonstration and he couldn't get his signal through with the propagation, one of teenagers pulled out his cell phone and offered it to him so he could call his friend! Does anything else need to be said really?
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 21, 2009
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I enjoyed your post, AB9PM. Get ready to have your acomplishments be referred to as a 'welfare license', "Box-top ticket", etc ad nasaem. But to paraphrase an old bit of history that happened around 1812 or so, damn the old fart nasties and have a great time on the airwaves!
Today, I finally got my 4BTV completely installed. Ground mounted, 60 ground radials (yes, 60, count 'em!), tilt plate, choke balun, etc and etc. Put the feed underground in a PVC pipe (sched 80), and pinned the radials to the lawn with biodegradable staples. Over fertilized the lawn with a good shot of lime to keep the violets out of the grass, and the radials should not even be visable by the middle of may (hopefully).
Monday, I hope that the polyphasor LA that I ordered will arrive, so that I can complete my feed installation to the radio room, which is not a room actually, rather a corner of the garage.
My 4BTV is in the back yard. Nobody has noticed it. Tall board fence all the way around the back yard. Will not use the radio when the dogs or the grandkids are in the back yard. (That is common sense) Will only run aprox 100 watts to maybe 150 watts max as I have nearby neighbors. Cooking one's neighbors is somewhat in poor taste. Inside the 'radio room' I will connect said antenna to a vintage SWR meter by Heath, an LP filter by Bencher (YA-1) and an Icom IC 173. If there is evidence of RF coming into the shack, I will use a common mode choke by DX Engineering as well. Also in the chain will eventually be the AT 150 automatic tuner, but that will be at a later date.
I am now contemplating a 40/41 meter monoband quarterwave vertical for the front yard. All 32.23 feet of it. Will paint it white and put a plastic gilded eagle on top of it with I little flag... presto a flag pole, and I will snicker at those who think that antennas are the bane of civilization. Indeed no one will even know unless they see me hooking up the feed or laying the radials at night. :-) If they do see me doing such, I will 'educate' them to the fact that it is simply lightning protection, which everyone should use if they put in a flag pole.
73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 21, 2009
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AB9PM writes: "I took all 3 tests in one day. I missed one question between 3 exams."
That's EXCELLENT!
AB9PM: "Condescendingly they told me how hard it was, and how many times I would have to take it to pass."
Well, that was just plain dumb of them. I mean, how could *they* know how many tries it would take you?
AB9PM: "When I passed the extra, the oldest fart VE of which there were four there exclaimed he did it, I can't believe we are letting people do this."
How "old" was this guy?
It's been possible to go from no-amateur-license to Extra in a single test session since about 1975. While unusual, once in a while somebody would show up at a test session and simply pass all the required exams, code and written. Anybody who really knows the history knows that.
AB9PM: "He was pissed off."
That's HIS problem. Not yours.
AB9PM: "One of the other ve's told me he got 7 wrong after 3 tries to pass his extra exam, let alone doing all the exams in one day."
IOW, he's jealous. I've been on the receiving end of that sort of thing too.
AB9PM: "As it turns out, no one has ever done this before at their club site."
Now someone has. Congratulations!
AB9PM: "At my test session people couldn't pass the technician test?????"
You have to remember that not everyone comes from a technical background. What is obvious and basic to you may be very new to them. Heck, consider how many Americans don't understand the difference between power and energy...
AB9PM: "Not all of us are blessed with living circumstances in life with that mega-station. So I and many others do the best we can with what we can work out."
Agreed! But a megastation isn't needed to have a lot of fun.
AB9PM: "It cost $5, and my parents forbid me to go because 1) it cost $5 2) more radio will raise their electric bill. Pretty sad isn't it?"
Yes - very sad. I wonder why they were so against something that would do any teenager so much good?
AB9PM: "So a 100 years later I live my dream to get snubbed? Who needs it!"
The thing you have to remember is that the snubbers are only a few out of many hundreds of thousands. Most hams aren't at all like what you describe.
AB9PM: "By snubbing people for their stations, and the current licensing standards, is just wrong."
Yes, it is.
AB9PM: "After trying to call a friend of his on 40 meters for the demonstration and he couldn't get his signal through with the propagation, one of teenagers pulled out his cell phone and offered it to him so he could call his friend! Does anything else need to be said really?"
I don't see your point, Dave.
Sometimes propagation is great, sometimes it's awful. That's life on HF, particularly with the antennas and power levels most amateurs have.
Of *course* a cell phone will get through; it only has to go a short hop to the nearest site and then it's fiber all the rest of the way.
Sorry you've had such bad experiences. Did you know any of those folks beforehand?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 21, 2009
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To N2EY
No I did not know any of the amateurs at the exam before. I went to a different county than mine locally because it was more readily TIME available to me. I have had better luck I said before on the internet with CQ 100. I have also had enjoyable conversations with the asian countries, giving me a very different understanding of what the USA is and just what it stands for in the world. Very educational, eye opening experience. More than most americans will ever realize, or know. At least I am on an even playing field on the internet, so little issues arise there.
As for my remark regarding the teenagers, if they can pick up a cell phone, call, text, e-mail.... they have no need for amateur radio. My own son finds my hobby stupid! I almost convinced him to get his technician license since he is looking at a law enforcement career. But that took a little effort.
Way too much criticism and perfection expected in this hobby. Don't care for it.
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 21, 2009
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AB9PM Wrote:
< I have also had enjoyable conversations with the asian countries, giving me a very different understanding of what the USA is and just what it stands for in the world. Very educational, eye opening experience. More than most americans will ever realize, or know.>
KB0TXC Responds:
You have said more in three sentences than most of my undergrads can say in five pages. I am well traveled in Asia, and I suspect what you have posted is truly unfathomable by the vast majority of the people who call themselves American.
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 22, 2009
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AB9PM writes: "No I did not know any of the amateurs at the exam before."
OK. That says to me the condescending folks were that way because of some problem *they* have.
AB9PM: "I have had better luck I said before on the internet with CQ 100. I have also had enjoyable conversations with the asian countries, giving me a very different understanding of what the USA is and just what it stands for in the world. Very educational, eye opening experience. More than most americans will ever realize, or know. At least I am on an even playing field on the internet, so little issues arise there."
I'm interested in the insights you've gotten from those folks. How do they view the USA?
AB9PM: "As for my remark regarding the teenagers, if they can pick up a cell phone, call, text, e-mail.... they have no need for amateur radio. My own son finds my hobby stupid!"
The problem is that he (and many others, including some hams!) don't understand what Amateur Radio is all about.
If the message is what's important, it doesn't matter how it gets there. Email, webpage, fax, phone (cell or wire), and many other options (such as plain old US mail) are out there, and most are far more common than amateur radio.
Amateur Radio is about "radio for its own sake". It's like a trip where the journey is far more important than the destination.
For example, if you just want to get from New York to Los Angeles, a commercial airliner is probably the fastest, easiest, and most popular way. A bit of shopping around can get you a pretty low fare, and while air travel these days is getting more and more spartan it's just for a few hours.
OTOH you could take flying lessons, get licensed, and buy or rent a small plane for the same trip. The cost is probably a lot more and the speed a lot less.
In both cases, you could say you "flew from New York to Los Angeles", but the experiences are completely different!
--
Or consider any sport. Fundamentally, almost all sports are meaningless exercises to see who is better at some arbitrary skill. Take the current "March Madness" NCAA basketball finals for example: most of the players will not go pro, and the end result is simply a trophy. Yet they play to the limit of their skill and endurance. Why?
Or consider a more technical pursuit like NASCAR. The vehicles used are not "stock cars" in an real sense of the word, and the whole thing amounts to several hours of high speed left turns. Yet enormous amounts of time, effort and money go into each race, let alone each season, and millions follow NASCAR simply as spectators. Why?
In each case it's not about the end result but about how that result is obtained. Same for Amateur Radio.
AB9PM: "Way too much criticism and perfection expected in this hobby. Don't care for it."
With all due respect, Dave, I think you're making the same mistake as the condescending VEs you criticize so much: You're taking the actions of a few as representative of all of amateur radio. That's simply not accurate.
What "perfection" do you see expected of amateurs?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 22, 2009
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Many of the amateurs and in particular this forum, demonstrate that perfection is the standard that MUST be attained at any cost. If I can make contact around the world with a 100 watts and a hamstick, that is junk. It is inefficient, and foolish I as an operator have chosen to use. For 25 times the price I could of done......... Do people realize if I had 25 times the cost to throw at a particular antenna I would? Sometimes people have to make due with they can afford. Not what the next amateur spends himself. Now some people love the old vintage gear, or vintage mode- am, even cw for example. That is fine for those who engage in it. I am severely restricted at my home qth, no antennas allowed. So I have an antenna stretched across my roof, and it blends in nicely. I have communicated as far as Morocco with it on 20 meters, and all over the U.S. and canada on 40, 20, and 17 meters. I wouldn't even attempt to communicate on 75 meters, where old grumpy men running a kilowatt want to communicate with +40 db over s9 signals. An s 10 signal or lower doesn't cut it even in non-summer conditions.
The asian countries gave me a new perspective to understanding of America's role as leadership, in the areas of economics and world security. The number of countries dependent upon this country for their own existence. The many things we take for granted here daily, are held in high esteem in other countries because of our ideals. Americans take America for granted.
Why should people study to become a general or an extra when they are treated as they do not belong? Do I think the system could use some changes, yes probably, but when I see people failing a technician test, am I one to judge? Yes, areas of understanding that is easy for me, is not for someone else. I understand a lot more learning went into the amateur radio license when cw was a requirement, and resentment does abound for that. However those people who did conquer cw have had their license longer than the rest of us where we were closed out from the hobby for not learning it. Cw did keep many people from getting into radio, I know of them. Cw alone does not measure a person's ability to operate a station.
So my final thoughts back to Terry's column, yes new hams are treated different and will be for the next 25-50 years. When all the old farts hanging onto old times die off, then maybe if you still have to take a test at all, things will balance out. However radio will slowly die and be replaced by something else.... like now the internet!
Dave AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 22, 2009
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Dave AB9PM wrote:
<When all the old farts hanging onto old times die off, then maybe if you still have to take a test at all, things will balance out. However radio will slowly die and be replaced by something else.... like now the internet!>
KB0TXC responds:
Dave, what you just posted is a recognition of a universal truth that haunts most folk in the western world that have passed the 50% point in their lifespan...
That universal truth is that (to quote George Harrison), 'All things must pass'. That even includes the Egos that reside in folk that have passed that 50 percent mark in their lifespan. An Ego (cap "E") is an entity unto itself that is temporarily located within a shell of flesh and blood, but often in the west without the knowledge of what exists beyond the habitation of flesh and blood.
The unfortunate thing is (especially in the youth culture West) many folks (amatuer radio 'old farts' included) react to the certain passage from one Ego habitation to the next with bitterness and anger rather than with the more healthy reaction of wonder and promise. I am now starting to be called on e-ham 'anti religious' by folks that demonstrate this anger. It is not that I am anti religious, as opposed to religious, I am anti *DOGMA*. Rather than follow a dogmatic path full of stones and heartbreak and signs that proclaim "THOU MUST!", I follow the Karmonic pathway of possibilities. I do not see death as the great sleep, to be feared and loathed. Yes, the method by which it comes is sometimes to be feared, but not the journey itself. Having spoke with several who have made a temporary journey over the wall, I would indeed have to understand that this passage is a gift, not a curse.
Thus, the real issue with those that are bitter and angry at life is the horrible terror that they possess of change, passing and death. (This includeds those that are angry about many things, whether it is changes in civil rights arena, the voting rights act, the increasing recognition of GLB rights, or even in amateur radio licensing.) Times change. People change. The stinky little town that I grew up in is unrecognisable. My childhood friends are middle aged people, some with grandchildren. As I told my significant other, when I was eighteen, I lay down on a couch and took a catnap, and woke up a 46 year old man. Just as the Sakura bloom, life is beautiful but fleeting and ephemeral. (The Sakura season oficially started yesterday...the first 5 buds opened on the 'watch tree' in the center of Tokyo.) Only those that cannot accept this state of the universe on this side of the vale become embittered and thus, become as we say in amateur radio "old farts", and yes, this hobby does seem to have more than its fair share of old farts. They shall pass, I hope that they have more good Karma built up than bad, and that they become happier in the next realm than in this one.
In the meantime, it seems that their main duty is to make those like you that are not embittered and stuck in a particular era of the past feel inferior to themselves. All I can say is ignore them, do not enable them in their bitterness by even responding to them. Clemens noted that nothing damages a demon more than laughing at it, and I have written before that nothing is more discouraging to a bitter Ego than ignoring it. Take this stance not in the spirit of malace ore hatered of the embittered Egos, rather keep this attitude with the emphasis of increasing your own happiness and satisfaction, and in the accepting of the relentles changes in life.
Best and 73,
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 22, 2009
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AB9PM posted on 22 Mar 09:
"Way too much criticism and perfection expected in this hobby. Don't care for it."
I totally agree with that, Dave. :-)
But, this is a forum for Professional Amateurs, not hobbyists. I think WE have to 'follow' these Living Exhibits in the Museum of Archaic Radio Skills and forever keep our peace and place (always low). WE are lesser beings for wanting individualism, wanting free choice, wanting to speak our minds regardless of how it upsets the self-defined Leaders of this Professional Amateur Society.
WE must follow the 'Code.' The Morse Code. The Amateur's Code (of 1928). The unwritten Code of being required to get our FIRST licenses in amateur radio as teen-agers and slowly, slowly working up through the union ranks until WE meet the stringent Demands of the Masters. In other words, WE Must Do As The 'masters' Did or be considered unworthy of their royal presence.
Ya know, this Living Museum place is getting very old and is still small (no significant increases in numbers of licenses in 5 years). I don't care much for this Museum. Soon it will be torn down and replaced with something more modern, more useful, more fun. Alas, that won't happen in my lifetime but I know that those Exhibits of the Museum will also be gone or going...their code keys still clamped in their cold, dead fingers. :-)
Still, it makes me happy to have accomplished something such as actually being that rare 'extra out of the box' that the 'masters' couldn't do. I hope it makes you happy to have done the same. :-)
The Pretenders to 'mastership' can continue to fantasize. Me, I'm no pretender. I'm just a hobbyist with (another) federal radio license. I'm just trying to enjoy LIFE.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 22, 2009
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KB0TXC posted on 22 Mar 09:
"...In the meantime, it seems that their main duty is to make those like you that are not embittered and stuck in a particular era of the past feel inferior to themselves. All I can say is ignore them, do not enable them in their bitterness by even responding to them. Clemens noted that nothing damages a demon more than laughing at it, and I have written before that nothing is more discouraging to a bitter Ego than ignoring it. Take this stance not in the spirit of malace ore hatered of the embittered Egos, rather keep this attitude with the emphasis of increasing your own happiness and satisfaction, and in the accepting of the relentles changes in life."
Good words, Joe. I will agree to those but add my own few: Sometimes it is just plain FUN to poke those Big Ego balloons with a large pin. :-) [I've been doing that for about a quarter century with computer-modem comms now]
There are precious few in here who actually want to discuss anything. It is like a very old radio show (before most folks time) called "Can you top this?" except it isn't comedy when they 'discuss' by contentious, challenging questions. THEY have an agenda and, by harry, They are going to prove they are Bigger, Faster, Better, SUPERIOR in all things. :-)
Like I said to Dave, I'm just a hobbyist with (another) federal radio license (I have/had 5 of them) and I'm just trying to enjoy LIFE. In order to enjoy things I'm not going to turn on my Icom 746Pro today. Either. :-)
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 22, 2009
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AB9PM Wrote:
<I have had better luck I said before on the internet with CQ 100.>
KB0TXC Responds:
I learned something today (well, last night actually)!
I have never heard of CQ 100. I Googled it, and now I do. Looks cool! I will sign up tomorrow, and become a 'net amateur as well.
Had a neat idea with this...I have a buddy who is an excellent microprocessor hardware guy (I do not like digital circuits), and I thought to my self, "SELF!", wouldn't it be cool if there was a piece of hardware that looked like a HF rig, but that was really a microprocessor controlled 'rig' designed to work with CQ 100...complete with tuning knob, microphone connector, mode switches, etc and etc.
Now that would be cool, and this is from a vacuum tube sort of guy.
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 22, 2009
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AF6AY Wrote:
<Good words, Joe. I will agree to those but add my own few: Sometimes it is just plain FUN to poke those Big Ego balloons with a large pin. :-)>
KB0TXC Responds:
Oh I agree! The only time that I will really get nasty is when attacked in a spirit of nastiness. If someone disagrees with me, that is another thing, and I enjoy a good discussion that includes many viewpoints that differ from my own. For the most part, (Butterfly will not accept this statement), I do NOT respond to most old farts. I simply ignore them. That goes for e-ham, university, life, etc.
But I <try> not to get to upset...but with that being said, I am human, and sometimes I do. I usually respond with laughter at the super Egos (not the Freudian 'Super-Ego thingy) around here with laughter...
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 22, 2009
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Well on VOIP like CQ 100 your "signal" is usually clear and it is unique. No its not radio. No you are not challenging the skywaves. However for all the hams who are restricted, elderly, or homebound, I think the inventor came up with a great idea.
Unfortunately, because people and personalities are involved one of the nets had a good fight going one night. So even in the twisted wire world of amateur radio, you can't always escape the bull.
I always enjoyed listening to 75 meters at night, but the last couple winters signals have been so bad I can't receive much. A lot of absorption in my area of the country and only when signals get long can I start picking up stations. Local signals (within 300 miles) are just gone at sunset.
Cq 100 is just another option, without climbing a tower, and running a 1.5kw electric bill. Yesterday 3-21-09 at least 40 meters was open pretty good, today Sunday, not much in signals anywhere today.
Enjoy the hobby as you can.
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 22, 2009
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N2EY posted a question-discussion on March 22:
AB9PM: "No I did not know any of the amateurs at the exam before."
N2EY: "That says to me the condescending folks were that way because of some problem *they* have."
Why do you say that? You've demonstrated their same attitude, haven't you?
...............
AB9PM: "I have had better luck I said before on the internet with CQ 100. I have also had enjoyable conversations with the asian countries, giving me a very different..."
N2EY: "I'm interested in the insights you've gotten from those folks. How do they view the USA?"
Why don't you Go there and experience it yourself? Aren't you setting up yet-another misdirection to redirect the thread? Why can't you understand other free-thinking people?
...............
AB9PM: "As for my remark regarding the teenagers, if they can pick up a cell phone, call, text, e-mail.... they have no need for amateur radio. My own son finds my hobby stupid!"
N2EY: "The problem is that he (and many others, including some hams!) don't understand what Amateur Radio is all about."
But you do? Is ALL of amateur radio supposed to be YOUR personal perception?
Do you have your resume' ready? Have you submitted it to ARRL yet to get Dave Sumner's job when he retired? Wouldn't you like to get a 6-figure annual incomes as a commanding voice to all USA radio amateurs?
................
N2EY: "OTOH you could take flying lessons, get licensed, and buy or rent a small plane for the same trip. The cost is probably a lot more and the speed a lot less."
How is this analagous to the article subject? Have YOU taken flying lessons?
................
N2EY: "Fundamentally, almost all sports are meaningless exercises to see who is better at some arbitrary skill."
Is marathon running exempted? Have you given up marathoning? Did you know that the first marathoner dropped dead immediately after? Why are you misdirecting the thread again?
................
N2EY: "Or consider a more technical pursuit like NASCAR. The vehicles used are not "stock cars" in an real sense of the word, and the whole thing amounts to several hours of high speed left turns."
Is that analagous to these article 'discussions,' everyone going around in circles? Have you ever driven an automobile at 180 MPH? How was it for you?
................
N2EY: "With all due respect, Dave, I think you're making the same mistake as the condescending VEs you criticize so much: You're taking the actions of a few as representative of all of amateur radio. That's simply not accurate."
Why do you say that? Haven't you posed as THE explainer of amateur radio to all newbies? Haven't you posed as the renowned historian of amateur radio? Does that mean everything you've written is 'simply not accurate?'
.................
N2EY: "What "perfection" do you see expected of amateurs?"
Why do you say that? Haven't you been the 'watchbird' constantly on patrol, standing by to 'correct' the least little mistake of your Internet enemies? Aren't you the one 'profiling' certain people yet neglecting others whom you are in agreement with? Have you gotten laid this week? How are you escaping your hypocrisy?
------------------------
This has been another in the on-going series of the Jimmy & Len show brought to you by the wonderful folks at e-ham.net, this episode written entirely in the manner of Jimmy and his style on the Internet over the last dozen years or so. Tune in later for more of the same as Jimmy imitates Keith Olbermann in being the "Worst Person In the World!"
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 22, 2009
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AB9PM writes: "Enjoy the hobby as you can."
Which reminds me of something....
We amateurs have an enormous variety of things we can do legally in Amateur Radio:
- We have bands at MF, HF, VHF, UHF and microwaves. (Maybe some more MF and LF, eventually)
- We can use CW/Morse code, AM/FM/PM/digital voice, FSK/PSK and many other kinds of data, image modes, TV, spread spectrum and more. Hams have even invented new modes such as PSK31.
- We can use technology from the 1920s to the present day, in any sort of mix, as long as it produces a reasonable signal.
- We can use manufactured rigs, kit rigs, homebrew rigs and rigs converted from other services.
- We can operate from home, from a remote location, mobile and portable without any special license or permit. We can operate through repeaters, remote bases, amateur satellites and via remote control. There are even amateurs in space.
- We can run low power, high power, and anything in between.
- We can ragchew, work DX, handle public service and emergency communications, compete in a variety of forms of 'radiosport', and much more. (In what other sport does winning require that you help competing players score points?)
- In fact, about the only things we're not allowed to do on the air within our bands are commercial communications, encryption, music, broadcasting and intentional jamming.
- And all it takes to become part of Amateur Radio is to get a license and a station. The license requires passing a few exams, the station can very simple, or as elaborate as resources allow. No age limit, no gender, race, ethnic barriers, no educational prerequisites.
What's not to like?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 23, 2009
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Captain Code (N2EY), cape flying triumphantly exposing the ARRL logo, went way over the top in an orgy of passion for His Way of Life on 22 Mar 09 with:
[... parody of nine decades of league propaganda cribbing elided for reasons of good taste,
but with a strong sense of the dramatic "Patton" visual scene, the famous speech on a stage in front of a huge flag, replete with stirring martial music in the background... ]
N2EY: "What's not to like?"
WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE are the attitudes of a few 'senior' amateurs who PRESUME to 'lead' by demanding that ALL believe as THEY do or be banished from THEIR presence for insubordination and treason against the holy jihad of the Church of St. Hiram.
WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE are those poor deranged souls who refuse to concede any rights to free will, independence of personal choice, or even allowance of personal opinion by others of 'lesser' rank-status-title than the 'seniors' who think of themselves as 'leaders.'
WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE are the few, the overly-proud, the angry 'seniors' who wish to have all in amateur radio conform to Their opinions and become offensive with hurled pejoratives against all who do not intrinsically respect their 'greatness.'
WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE are the self-defined, self-enobled, egocentric radio police who demand instant obediance to Their Orders...for they ASSUME 'command' of all things.
WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE are the Puritanical Purveyors of Perfection who are constantly on the hunt for the slightest error in anything that does not conform to Their righteous holy knowledge of Themselves always being 'perfect.'
WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE is those who wish to live in a Past that existed before their lifetimes and wishing out loud that they could 'pioneer' the airwaves as their hero idols did in print while their own twisted idolatry conflicts reality with their fantasy.
WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE are the fantasizers who have yet to understand that the rest of us are humans with our own interests, desires, and - above all - LIVES which may be different than those of the fantasizers, the pipe-dreamers, those unable to grasp the concept that there are Real People behind their computer monitor's screens.
---------------------
The original article began with the FACT that there exist a vocal few who are (gasp!) NOT LIKED by many more than these Grate Ones realize. Anyone who wants to nullify reality fit one or more of the above categories. WE cannot put on blinders and turn deaf ears away from facts and perceptions of so many.
Other than that, some of us behind the Grate Ones' screens might think that amateur radio is interesting and a HOBBY, not a religion, not a Lifestyle.
Yes, it is a HOBBY even though it is not so stated de jure in regulations. It was NEVER anything more than a HOBBY despite the self-serving, self-defining BS of some politicians within the activity. The Grate Ones do not understand that. Pity them.
Len, AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W3TTT on March 23, 2009
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"...WHAT IS NOT TO LIKE are the attitudes of a few 'senior' amateurs who PRESUME to 'lead' ..."
I am truely surprized that you or anyone would care at all what a "few senior amateurs" think. On this subject or any. When the comments are negative in nature, and the praise is sparse, then ignore.
Desiderata
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.
Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 23, 2009
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AB9PM writes: "Many of the amateurs and in particular this forum, demonstrate that perfection is the standard that MUST be attained at any cost."
What sort of perfection do you mean?
AB9PM: "If I can make contact around the world with a 100 watts and a hamstick, that is junk."
Why is it "junk"?
AB9PM: "It is inefficient, and foolish I as an operator have chosen to use. For 25 times the price I could of done......... Do people realize if I had 25 times the cost to throw at a particular antenna I would? Sometimes people have to make due with they can afford."
I've been making do with what I can afford in amateur radio for 42 years now.
For example:
http://www.qsl.net/k5bcq/Jim/SilverRX1.jpg
http://www.qsl.net/k5bcq/Jim/SilverRX2.jpg
http://www.qsl.net/k5bcq/Jim/SilverRX3.jpg
http://www.qsl.net/k5bcq/Jim/SilverRX4.jpg
http://www.qsl.net/k5bcq/Jim/SilverRX5.jpg
http://www.qsl.net/k5bcq/Jim/SilverRX6.jpg
shows a receiver I built in the 1970s for about $10 and a lot of scrounging.
You can see a picture of my current station here on eham, too.
AB9PM: "Why should people study to become a general or an extra when they are treated as they do not belong?"
Does *every* experienced amateur treat you as if you don't belong, or only some of them?
AB9PM: "Do I think the system could use some changes, yes probably, but when I see people failing a technician test, am I one to judge? Yes, areas of understanding that is easy for me, is not for someone else. I understand a lot more learning went into the amateur radio license when cw was a requirement, and resentment does abound for that. However those people who did conquer cw have had their license longer than the rest of us where we were closed out from the hobby for not learning it. Cw did keep many people from getting into radio, I know of them."
ANY meaningful test will keep some people out. Some people have trouble memorizing things like band allocations and formulas - should those things be removed from the tests because they keep some folks out? Some folks have trouble with math and formulas - should those things go out too?
AB9PM: "Cw alone does not measure a person's ability to operate a station."
Of course not. But neither does much of what is on the tests now.
IIRC, the youngest person to earn an Extra was 7 years old at the time of testing, and the youngest General was 6.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KD0ANL on March 23, 2009
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I just had a few of my local club "Elmers" tell me what a nincompoop I was for buying a Kenwood VHF mobile.
What's worse, is if you don't own or buy the equipment they advocate, they're not much interested in talking to you about your Kenwood so-and-so.
I'm almost sorry I spent the money to get in to this hobby. Everyone I've met so far has been an *ss.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W8BRI on March 23, 2009
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I was hoping this thread would go away but it has not so at this point I'd like to weigh in with a few thoughts. I was a longtime shortwave listener and decided in my late 30's that I'd like to get a ham radio ticket. I bought a study guide with morse code tapes and studied and joined the hobby as a tech plus in 1997. When I received my new call there was no brass band, parade, segment on 60 minutes etc. I did not receive nor did I expect any special treatment from longtime hams. I later passed the 13 wpm general exam and again no brass band, parade, segment on 60 minutes or fireworks. I was a coded ham and had a lot of the same experiences mentioned by the original poster. In my mind this is not a code vs no code issue. Most people always run across unpleasant people in their day to day life and ham radio is no different. It's been my observation that many new hams have a sort of skewed vision of the hobby. It's a vision where everyone is nice and pleasant with no hostility, I don't know where they get this from. There is no rule that people have to be nice to me or that I have to be nice to them. I treat people the way they treat me. I know hams from when I got my 1st ticket that can't stand me and I can't stand them as well. I believe that some new hams are way too thin skinned, they cannot or will not tolerate any negativity. These hams need to quit whining and complaining and either leave the hobby as its not for them or man up and find something they enjoy about the hobby and start doing it and have fun.
I'm still having fun,
Bri
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W5ESE on March 24, 2009
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> I just had a few of my local club "Elmers" tell me
> what a nincompoop I was for buying a Kenwood VHF
> mobile.
That's ridiculous.
You should seek out a different group to hang out
with. I never hear anything like that in my area.
Don't give up on it too quickly. I've been a ham
since 1976, and most everyone I've met have been
wonderful.
73
Scott
W5ESE
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 24, 2009
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Well I remember when I first got me license......... It twas a cold rain soaked day much like my homeland of of the Scotts. We had no electricity nor batteries......but used wet logs to build a fire for morse smoke signals. Had no matches or firestick to ignite the fire so had to stand out in the rain until we be struck by lightning and then before our cloths burned off run back to the stack of wet logs and lay ourselves down on them. All the time we had Federal Communication men beating us about the head and necks with lead pipes. Back then it was 21 words per minute with smoke signals.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh those were the days.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KD0ANL on March 24, 2009
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> That's ridiculous.
It is.
> You should seek out a different group to hang out
> with.
I have.
> Don't give up on it too quickly. I've been a ham
> since 1976, and most everyone I've met have been
> wonderful.
I won't.
I should note, not everyone I've encountered has been unpleasant. I've met or corresponded with some very nice and knowledgeable people (on eHam, for example).
When something like this happens to a relatively new ham (thin-skinned or not), it is quite off-putting, though.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 24, 2009
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I would suggest seeking out some DX amateurs from distant lands... They tend to be very polite (unlike some US "hams", and want to communicate with anyone who is interested in communicating with them.
I am signing up for CQ 100 this week, (need to scan my ticket at Office Max, I have no scanner) and will be using that as well. For 40 bucks a year, (less than 4 dollars a month) it cannot be beat. If one runs a legal limit QRO for more than a few hours a week, you will spend more than 4 dollars a month on electricity.
Please do not give up on the hobby because of a few bitter old farts whose main problem is that they resent the fact that they are no longer in the prime of their life. (Just FYI, I am no longer in the "prime of my life" either. I simply look at life differently than many folk in the West.)
There are many fine people here where I am locally that will talk with you on the repeater or on HF or anyother way that you wish. Some are young no-coders and some are thrity year veterans. (I am a 14 year veteran, BTW...)
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 24, 2009
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N3IQA got literary aspiration/perspiration on March 23, 2009 with:
"I am truely surprized that you or anyone would care at all what a "few senior amateurs" think. On this subject or any. When the comments are negative in nature, and the praise is sparse, then ignore."
<quotation of Max Ehrmann's prose poem written at age 55 in 1927 elided for good taste and brevity in here>
-----------------------------
If you need PLACIDITY, take up stamp collecting. If you need to have OTHERS 'show you the way,' go to St. Paul's in Baltimore and get a handout (you won't need your yarmulke in there). If you NEED oh-so-nice-nice quotable aphorisms, read any copy of Reader's Digest.
But, what so many in the fifty-something age group seem to get into in these forums is the pompous posing of the stern paternalists who are LECTURING to 'children.' They shake their fingers at these 'kids' and order them to "play nice, now" and (usually) "shut the #$%^ up" when WE LEADERS SPEAK. Geez, that gets older than Methuselah in a hurry.
Joseph, I'm NOT singling you out. You just fell into the same (clap) trap of so many in their mid-fifties Who Think They Know Everything in a Hobby activity (or Life itself) and have been around since time began (since teen-age). But, to bring out that old saw of a devotional prose poem as "words to live by?!?" Just because it became a Thing To Read in the 1950s by all the 'hip' folks back then?!? [hint: I was in the US Army at the time, a volunteer when the Draft was on and working in Big Time HF communications] Why not drag out the 81-year-OLD "The Amateur's Code" written by another lawyer, Paul Segal?
Here's a clue, a couple of them: I'm no 'kid' at 76, getting my first-ever amateur radio license at age 74. Terry Deuel, article starter, is in his fifties. So is Dave, AB9PM. We are just COMPLAINING about easily-observable behavior patterns that having been growing in USA amateur radio on HF ("the Bands" as if no other ham bands exist) for years. These forums on e-ham are a written evidence of all those 'senior' leader-wannabes who Know All There Is in USA amateur radio...even when they've never wandered far from "the Bands" in their whole my-lifestyle-is-all-about-ham-radio experience. USA ham radio is NOT some "Heidi" or "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm" nice-nice, pink-cheeked perfection of G-Rated "civility" where all sit around sipping lukewarm camomile tea with crumpets, holding little doilies to keep their dresses dry where never is heard a discouraging word (but the antelope have all gone away). It's "Home, Home on the Strange" where ALL signals are to be reported as "599" before a re-send is requested (due to noise)...it is where anything anyone says is so Wonderful, Great, Awesome, Fabulous, Important, it makes me think my receiver wandered into a Hollywood actor-producer party where gratuitous praise is applauded as The Thing To Say allatime. Barf City social club for the terminally-ego-expanded of the entertainment industry set.
Everyone has a choice. Remain placid, even timid in denial while trying to escape into the fantasy world of the Ether, piously attending whatever house of worship one prefers, geting lovely little hand-outs of soothing syrup of prose poems. Let all the Fearless Leiders rule us in Hymns of Devotion at the Church of St. Hiram with pious parables and threats of fire and brimstone if we 'kids' don't behave.
Or, we can outright SAY something against those who attempt to boss us around and hurl epithets at us by 'bosses' suffering emotional frustrations. I don't have any job loss to fear and I'm not suffering any financial hardship, so - in the RA Way - I'm going to continue to pop the self-inflated ego balloons of these self-annointed 'bosses.'
That in itself can be a kind of 'fun' in AMATEUR radio...if all the noise from the popped ego balloons wasn't so loud.
Enjoy, shalom and sayonara and god dag...
Len, AF6AY
LenAnderson@ieee.org
PS: I have my own yarmulke and last wore it (sadly) at a dear friend's funeral service in Temple a year ago.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 24, 2009
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TIMEWILLTELL boasted on March 24, 2009:
"Well I remember when I first got me license......... It twas a cold rain soaked day much like my homeland of of the Scotts. We had no electricity nor batteries......but used wet logs to build a fire for morse smoke signals. Had no matches or firestick to ignite the fire so had to stand out in the rain until we be struck by lightning and then before our cloths burned off run back to the stack of wet logs and lay ourselves down on them."
You had CLOTHES?!?
Spoiled babyyy...!!!
When I was young we had to carve our own ICs out of wood with a pen knife...
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W8JII on March 25, 2009
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You had a pen knife? Lucky dog! We had to carve them out with sharpened stones!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 25, 2009
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You had a pen knife......lucky bastard. When I was young and had my first radio license (before radios were invented) we had our license carved in solid granite, of which we had to chisel out of the side of a cliff with our teeth and then use a bone that we removed from our leg to chip the license information into it..........all the time while it was freezing rain in the dark.....with no cloths on.....just wet mud on our bodies to keep us warm.....while fcc men were beating us about the head and necks with lead pipes............
tell that to kids now adays and they won't believe ya.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 25, 2009
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Some relative to e.e.cummings wrote on 25 Mar 09:
"tell that to kids now adays and they won't believe ya."
I heard the same story in high school 60 years ago...and didn't believe it then.
I heard the same story in the Army 50 years ago...and didn't believe it then.
I heard the same story at work 40, 30, 20, 10 years ago and didn't believe it then.
With all that waste gas floating around, its no wonder we hve a global warming problem. But..."CW gets through when nothing else can." Uh, huh...
"We" are NOT all in this together.
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Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W1LIC on March 25, 2009
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Interesting comments.
I've been a ham for 42 years and certainly have seen a lot of changes. However, I still enjoy many of the same things I enjoyed from the beginning, such as rag chewing on CW. I know that CW isn't for everyone, but there is still plenty of room for that mode along with all the new things.
Ham radio is made up of a wide variety of people, just like life in general. Some people I like, some I don't. Some hams I like, some I don't. However, ham radio still is a hobby with room enough for all of us. We don't all enjoy the same aspects.
I've worked as a police dispatcher for the past 23 years, and I am well aware that some people thrive on conflict. There are hams who are that way, too. If you are one of them, go ahead and enjoy your conflict. I'll keep on enjoying my leisurely chats with a great bunch of ham that same way I have for the past 42 years.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 25, 2009
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You got beat with lead pipes......you lucky bastard.
I got beat with lead pipes for 25 years......and I do it professionally and enjoy it. So I must be better than you.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 25, 2009
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And when I am getting beaten with the pipes.......do I scream out in pain...............no.
I do it silently in code.......ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch............at 20 ouches per minute.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 25, 2009
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KB0TXC writes: "An Ego (cap "E") is an entity unto itself that is temporarily located within a shell of flesh and blood, but often in the west without the knowledge of what exists beyond the habitation of flesh and blood."
No human being, west or east, *really* knows what happens to Egos "beyond the habitation of flesh and blood". There are lots of folks who believe in various things, but they don't really *know*. Because if they knew, belief wouldn't be necessary.
It may be that a human-type Ego/consciousness can exist without a "shell". The opposite may also be true.
KB0TXC: "It is not that I am anti religious, as opposed to religious, I am anti *DOGMA*. Rather than follow a dogmatic path full of stones and heartbreak and signs that proclaim "THOU MUST!", I follow the Karmonic pathway of possibilities."
"No dogmas" is a dogma of its own.
Those who push for changes are as dogmatic as those who want to stick to the old ways.
KB0TXC: "Having spoke with several who have made a temporary journey over the wall, I would indeed have to understand that this passage is a gift, not a curse."
Maybe. We don't really know if what those who were "temporarily dead" experienced true life-after-death experiences, though, or were simply dreaming.
(Where does a person's Ego/consciousness go when they're asleep?)
KB0TXC: "Thus, the real issue with those that are bitter and angry at life is the horrible terror that they possess of change, passing and death. (This includeds those that are angry about many things, whether it is changes in civil rights arena, the voting rights act, the increasing recognition of GLB rights, or even in amateur radio licensing.) Times change. People change."
But not all change is for the better.
I've seen what were once well-kept neighborhoods decline into urban wastelands, because people changed.
I've seen flourishing companies go bankrupt because they changed things they should have left alone.
Or consider the current economic/financial mess we're in; it is the direct result of some people pushing for changes in the way financial things were done. We were told that the 'old rules' didn't apply, (such as requiring at least 20% down payment for a conventional mortgage) that we had to accept 'new ways of doing things' (such as financing 105% of the value of a house, because the buyers didn't even have enough cash to cover the closing costs.). And much more, foisted on us as "progress". Those of us who resisted such changes were called all sorts of names and ridiculed as being 'stuck in the past' and lacking in imagination.
We now see how well those new ways worked.....
All progress requires change. But all change does not result in progress. Beware the person who doesn't know the difference, and who tries to sell all change as progress.
KB0TXC: "Just as the Sakura bloom, life is beautiful but fleeting and ephemeral."
Yes, it is. But that does not mean we cannot affect how things change. We do not have to accept bad ideas simply because they are new ideas.
KB0TXC: "Only those that cannot accept this state of the universe on this side of the vale become embittered and thus, become as we say in amateur radio "old farts", and yes, this hobby does seem to have more than its fair share of old farts. They shall pass, I hope that they have more good Karma built up than bad, and that they become happier in the next realm than in this one."
I think the number of embittered folks in ham radio is very small - they're just very vocal. We really ARE all in this together, but that fact makes some people unhappy.
More important, though, is the fact that some of the bitterest folks are actually very new to amateur radio, even if they are biologically quite old. And some of the most experienced in amateur radio (ahem) are not old at all, in body, mind or spirit.
I find it interesting that you mention Eastern cultures, because in many ways they are more tradition-bound and demanding of conformity and uniformity than Western ones. For example, look up what it takes for an immigrant to become an American citizen, and compare it to what is required to become a Japanese citizen...
KB0TXC: "it seems that their main duty is to make those like you that are not embittered and stuck in a particular era of the past feel inferior to themselves."
How does one become "stuck in a particular era of the past"? Simply doing things the same way for a long time isn't necessarily wrong. Most Americans still use a keyboard layout developed in the 1870s for mechanical typewriters, even though more efficient layouts have been developed.
As for making others feel inferior, some people are better at particular things than others. That's just reality. Often a person is better at something because they worked at getting better at it.
Of course the person who has to repeatedly mention their life experience in almost every conversation as evidence of how good they are is really confessing how insecure they are. The person who really is better at something doesn't have to talk about it all the time.
KB0TXC: "All I can say is ignore them, do not enable them in their bitterness by even responding to them."
Good advice, Joe!
I would add this:
The only people I try to get even with are those who were kind to me. Because they're the ones who matter.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by W1LIC on March 25, 2009
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The last questions were directed to TIMEWILLTELL...
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 25, 2009
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N2EY thoughtfully posted:
But not all change is for the better.
I've seen what were once well-kept neighborhoods decline into urban wastelands, because people changed.
I've seen flourishing companies go bankrupt because they changed things they should have left alone.
Or consider the current economic/financial mess we're in; it is the direct result of some people pushing for changes in the way financial things were done. We were told that the 'old rules' didn't apply, (such as requiring at least 20% down payment for a conventional mortgage) that we had to accept 'new ways of doing things' (such as financing 105% of the value of a house, because the buyers didn't even have enough cash to cover the closing costs.). And much more, foisted on us as "progress". Those of us who resisted such changes were called all sorts of names and ridiculed as being 'stuck in the past' and lacking in imagination.
KB0TXC ruminates:
I would agree completely that all change is not for the better. I have seen beautiful part of Kansas City become a combat zone within the past twenty years, known as the "north east". Why? Well, at one time it was the Mafia zone, and when it was, it was kept in pristine condition. There were no burned out streetlights, no houses with broken windows, no trash in the streets, etc and etc. If a person who lived there was down on their luck and their house looked ratty, a whole troupe of rather ominous looking sorts would arrive and fix it up for the owner, especially if they were elderly, widowed, sick or unemployed. There was no crime in the area as well. The cops never had to go there, and when there was trouble (always from an 'outsider') the families would deal with the problem themselves, and then let the authorities know where to pick up the carcass.
Now it is a waste land. Why? Well, the feds convinced the state and local authorities to crack down on the mob. The FBI arrested Nicky (Sevilla), the teamsters were gutted, all of the captains were jailed, etc and etc. Then the real criminals (street thugs) came in and the rest is history. A house in that area sells for about 10 to 15K (before housing crisis), but if they were in the suburbs, they would be quite expensive.
No, not all change is good. The financial crisis is just one example. However, I can say that many things are better. The 'blue river' no longer has a head of foam on it. There is much less litter on the road ways than when I was a kid. The air is far far cleaner in the cities now than thirty years ago. I can enjoy a park without looking at huge mounds of old tires. The 'dumps' in the little towns have been cleaned up. The stinky little town that I grew up in is no longer under the thumbs of the four main churches of the greatly gulled. Pastor loudmouth and reverend righteous no longer control the school board, thus dictating what the kids can and cannot study. (one of the main emphasis was 'pre-military service' education...) The state mandates (yes, Missouri, believe it or not) minimum standards for the localities' sewer water discharges. (When I was a kid, the nasty, minimally treated black water was dumped into a tributary of the little blue river. You cannot imagine the stink that rose from that on those hot, sultry days). There is no military draft, so a kid no longer has to worry about being compelled to fight in some god-forsaken war in the prime of their life. The benefit of this that most do not ponder is that those who do join the military are all volunteers, and this leads to a much more professional and ready military, in my opinion.
Looking back on the changes that I have seen, I would much rather live now than when I was a young boy. Indeed, there are frightening aspects of society today. But then, the eminent threat of thermonuclear annihilation is greatly reduced. Kids no longer do the duck-heads between the knees and kiss their arse goodbye routine any more. The fallout shelters have become storage lockers. And I can go to school with a person of any color or ethnicity with no repercussions.
Whether or not wall street or the banks collapse will not make or break me, as my assets are not in those institutions. If Ford or GM go the way of the Dodo, I will not be effected (though my uncle who is a retired 'company man' exec with GM will probably loose a significant portion of his retirement). I already have a 'foot in the door' in several nations as far as permanent visas are concerned (including Japan). But even if none of these things work out for me, I at least am not constrained by the 'dogma of the static', nor the didactic thoughts of the stuck in the early cold war. As long as I breath, I hope and will strive to be flexible, innovative and optimistic. And I will contemplate the "mono no aware" as represented by the Sakura blossom as I ponder the mysteries and beauty of the Lotus Sutra.
Best and 73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 25, 2009
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N2EY replied to KB0TXC, but just couldn't help hisself from snarking at some others before 5:10 EDT on 25 Mar 09:
"Those who push for changes are as dogmatic as those who want to stick to the old ways."
Tsk, tsk, sore loser spoke there. US (who pushed for code test elimination) got in our Karmas and ran over your poor dogma. Squish.
.................
N2EY: "But not all change is for the better."
Some old dogmas just become road kill while the karmas drive on... <shrug>
.................
N2EY: "I've seen flourishing companies go bankrupt because they changed things they should have left alone."
Worried that Consolidated Railways ('Conrail') will Go Under?
.................
N2EY: "Or consider the current economic/financial mess we're in; it is the direct result of some people pushing for changes in the way financial things were done. We were told that the 'old rules' didn't apply, (such as requiring at least 20% down payment for a conventional mortgage) that we had to accept 'new ways of doing things' (such as financing 105% of the value of a house, because the buyers didn't even have enough cash to cover the closing costs.). And much more, foisted on us as "progress". Those of us who resisted such changes were called all sorts of names and ridiculed as being 'stuck in the past' and lacking in imagination."
So, you got caught in a mortage you couldn't afford? And now you are Venting about it?
That's not part of this article thread. Have you considered your own Blog to VENT?
GoDaddy!
.................
N2EY: "We now see how well those new ways worked....."
Oh, oh, trouble ahead? Conrail was formed from five smaller railway companies, those left over from the Great Train Turnover some years ago. Sure sounds like Trouble there (not in River City) around the City of Brotherly Love. [pack your parachute well, we are coming up on bail-out time]
.................
KB0TXC: "Just as the Sakura bloom, life is beautiful but fleeting and ephemeral."
N2EY: "Yes, it is. But that does not mean we cannot affect how things change. We do not have to accept bad ideas simply because they are new ideas."
Ahem, "Sakura" is Japanese for cherry blossom. Their two-week blooming time in Japan is celebrated there, thought of as a harbinger of Spring. I've been fortunate to see that period for three years in a row. I've enjoyed the celebration personally. Very nice.
.................
N2EY: "I think the number of embittered folks in ham radio is very small - they're just very vocal. We really ARE all in this together, but that fact makes some people unhappy."
Nope. Jimmy be 99 44/100% all washed up. But, what can he say as his dogma got run over by others' bigger, faster karmas? Whimper from the roadway?
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N2EY: "More important, though, is the fact that some of the bitterest folks are actually very new to amateur radio, even if they are biologically quite old. And some of the most experienced in amateur radio (ahem) are not old at all, in body, mind or spirit."
Oh, oh, now Jimmy's old Spite is striking out! Sort of like an old wound with gangrene. Poor baby.
Well, now, Terry, Dave, and myself all became AMATEUR EXTRAS in just one test session. That was something you could NOT do. None of us are 'kids,' either. Yet you couldn't do it in one test session. Is that what is rubbing salt in your gangrenous personality wound?
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N2EY: "I find it interesting that you mention Eastern cultures, because in many ways they are more tradition-bound and demanding of conformity and uniformity than Western ones. For example, look up what it takes for an immigrant to become an American citizen, and compare it to what is required to become a Japanese citizen..."
Jimmy, trust me, YOU would never fit in, not even if you admired G. W. Bushido. Hai!
That was Zen, this is Tao.
Go clap yo' hands three times in front of the Great Buddha at Kamakura and pray. Maybe the Great Sistah is nearby and can give you a hug...
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N2EY: "How does one become "stuck in a particular era of the past"?"
Continuing worship at the Church of St. Hiram as an acolyte, taking the Vow of Poverty for your amateur priesthood might be one factor... :-)
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N2EY: "Simply doing things the same way for a long time isn't necessarily wrong."
Yes, let us all hitch up our buggies and ride to the farmer's market over dirt roads to buy mid-week produce, direct from the fields and untouched by any new-fangled water washing or (gasp, horror!) man-made pesticides. Let us relax after evening meal with the paper or perhaps having a sing-along with the eldest girl playing the guitar or piano for entertainment. No sir, not some darned FDA ruling over what was IN that food or the massive stink that came from all those horses. No darned OSHA going to lay down ANY law to us right-thinking white folk, no sir! On Sundays we can all buggy down to the only church in town and study the Good Book in Sunday School (ARRL Handbook) and celebrate the inventor of all radio, St. Hiram, and his savior, The Morse.
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N2EY: "Most Americans still use a keyboard layout developed in the 1870s for mechanical typewriters, even though more efficient layouts have been developed."
Oh, dear, the Miccolis Keyboard never caught on...it having just three keys: A dot, a dash, and a Space bar. Why, 'naturally' it would type only morse code in its 'native language.'
Small footnote: The so-called 'QWERTY' keyboard layout became standardized by about 1910 but the "new, improved Dvorak" keyboard came out much, much later. A check of other nations will find that 'western' (alphabetized) keyboard layouts are modifications of the "Qwerty" for the non-English special letters, i.e. umlauts and others.
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N2EY: "As for making others feel inferior, some people are better at particular things than others. That's just reality. Often a person is better at something because they worked at getting better at it."
The grate Captain Code was NEVER any sort of "inferior." HE was always SUPERIOR! If you don't believe that, no worry...he will remind you regularly.
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N2EY: "Of course the person who has to repeatedly mention their life experience in almost every conversation as evidence of how good they are is really confessing how insecure they are."
Gee, Captain Code, is that why you always talk about being Boy Wonder going downtouwn all by yourself (!) to take your first amateur radio test in front of grown-up, steely-eyed FCC agents? Is that why you always post those "silver" named pictures of your frankenboxes built during the 1970s? Is that why you continually mention attending every Field Day since the year dot? Or about all those neighbors who "admire and compliment" your mighty amateur certificates and doings? Is that why you always mention being "42 years a ham?" Is that why you go over the top to promote the greatest mode in radio, on-off carrier keying? Is that why you've always said elimination of the USA amateur radio was "the worst thing that could happen?!?"
Gosh, Captain Code, INSECURITY is a terrible thing for you to have...but I can't think of a better victim than yourself. Really. Even if Terry, Dave, and myself all made Amateur Extra in one test session...something you couldn't do. Boo hoo fo' you.
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N2EY: "The person who really is better at something doesn't have to talk about it all the time."
You are god of radio. Yes, yes, we grok that, mighty grate one.
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KB0TXC: "All I can say is ignore them, do not enable them in their bitterness by even responding to them."
N2EY: "Good advice, Joe!"
You should try FOLLOWING that, Jimmy. :-)
So far your batting average in that is all zeroes. It goes negative when you equate 'patriotism' with morse code ability...as you've done elsewhere TO some of us military veterans who do NOT like morse code. But, I should make allowance for your never serving, not even as a civilian in your country's government... [here's your allowance: 2 cents]
..................
N2EY: "The only people I try to get even with are those who were kind to me."
True. You are SUPERIOR, therefore no one can ever be "even" with YOU. <shrug>
-----------------------
This has been yet another episode of the on-going Jimmy & Len Show brought to you by the good folks at e-ham.net who make it possible. Stay tuned for more in following episodes, right here on e-ham.net!
AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 25, 2009
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Len AF6AY posted bringing fond memories to fore
<Ahem, "Sakura" is Japanese for cherry blossom. Their two-week blooming time in Japan is celebrated there, thought of as a harbinger of Spring. I've been fortunate to see that period for three years in a row. I've enjoyed the celebration personally. Very nice.>
KB0TXC wistfully responds"
Oh yes. It has been too many years since I experienced the Hanami in Ueno Park. If I were not in school now, I would have gone to Tokyo this year for the cherry blossoms. The cherry blossom season officially started in Tokyo last Friday evening when the first few buds opened. (bit early this year)
It is amazing how many people take the time to go enjoy the Sakura. People vie for the best viewing spots. Truly amazing.
I also love the old city of Kyoto, and the many wonderful temples there. Truly a lovely place to visit, and as far as I am concerned, to live. Sure beats the outer Midwest flyover country where I live...
Best,
73
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 25, 2009
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KB0TXC writes: "I would agree completely that all change is not for the better."
Yup.
KB0TXC: "I have seen beautiful part of Kansas City become a combat zone"
What happened there is a classic case of the failure to plan becoming a plan to fail. The existing community-support structure was destroyed without being replaced by a new one that would do what the old one did. So the community fell apart.
Too often, those advocating tearing down the old don't really know what will replace it. And too often, what replaces it is chaos.
KB0TXC: "No, not all change is good. The financial crisis is just one example."
Yes, there are many more. Remember New Coke?
KB0TXC: "However, I can say that many things are better. The 'blue river' no longer has a head of foam on it."
Rivers don't catch fire any more, either.
KB0TXC: "There is much less litter on the road ways than when I was a kid. The air is far far cleaner in the cities now than thirty years ago. I can enjoy a park without looking at huge mounds of old tires. The 'dumps' in the little towns have been cleaned up."
Here are some more:
- A lot of waste is recycled rather than being burned or buried.
- Rivers and waterways that were once dumping grounds (like the Hudson) have come back to life.
- Cars and jobs are much safer than they used to be.
KB0TXC: "The stinky little town that I grew up in is no longer under the thumbs of the four main churches of the greatly gulled. Pastor loudmouth and reverend righteous no longer control the school board, thus dictating what the kids can and cannot study."
That battle still goes on; look at the efforts and lawsuits to teach creationism as science. You'd think it was 1925...
KB0TXC: "Looking back on the changes that I have seen, I would much rather live now than when I was a young boy. Indeed, there are frightening aspects of society today. But then, the eminent threat of thermonuclear annihilation is greatly reduced. Kids no longer do the duck-heads between the knees and kiss their arse goodbye routine any more. The fallout shelters have become storage lockers. And I can go to school with a person of any color or ethnicity with no repercussions."
Yes, those things have definitely improved.
OTOH, when we were growing up, people weren't intentionally flying airliners full of innocent people into skyscrapers, nor mailing bombs and anthrax. The cost of higher education was a lot less in inflation-adjusted dollars, and there were more good jobs that did not require a degree. Things like health insurance and buying a house were much more affordable.
KB0TXC: "Whether or not wall street or the banks collapse will not make or break me, as my assets are not in those institutions."
Don't be so sure. The way things are interconnected, almost everyone can be impacted indirectly.
KB0TXC: "I already have a 'foot in the door' in several nations as far as permanent visas are concerned (including Japan)."
That's good, but if things get bad enough, how permanent will those visas be?
KB0TXC: "But even if none of these things work out for me, I at least am not constrained by the 'dogma of the static', nor the didactic thoughts of the stuck in the early cold war."
Not sure what you mean by that last bit about the cold war. "Dogma of the static", though, is very good.
I am currently re-reading "Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", an excellent book which I recommend highly. I get something new out of it each time.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by KB0TXC on March 25, 2009
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@ N2EY
What I was speaking about the "didactic...of the cold war" was when I was very young, I remember the old drugstore cowboys saying things like "America,love it or leave it..." which really had nothing to do with loving America, rather it was more to do with agreeing with them. I both love my country, and I am planning to leave it, probably for ever. I have a number of expatriate associates in both Thailand and Japan, and one in Korea. This is not about either loving or hating the US, rather I simply fit better with the cultures of those lands (Thailand is too tropical for me though, I doubt that I could handle the non-stop heat, though the country and the people are beautiful.)
The didactic soul will tell you that there is only right or wrong. Yes or no, on or off, white or black. I am not this way, at least I try not to be this way. That is why I started following (at age 13) the Eastern spiritual pathway. I grew tired of the "one and only way" as espoused by the usual Western religious-philosophical ways. (Actually, all three Middle Eastern Abrahamic religions tend to be quite white or black... however some religious scholars seem to think that Abraham might have actually gone into what is known as India as well and had a profound impact on the establishment of some aspects of the Hindu faith, though I think this is a long stretch...)
My personal philosophical leanings are Taoist, and I have studied the Taoist divination and meditative methods for a long time. My 'religion' is Nichiren Buddhism. Unlike religions that practice evangelism, I will never attempt to get anyone to follow my path. If someone is sincerely interested in what I practice or believe, I will give them a couple small books, and refer them to someone who will see if they really are interested in following that pathway. I will never try to make a 'convert' as I feel that I am no where near at the point where I should do such a thing. Indeed, I have spoken more about what my spiritual leanings than anywhere else in a long time. And I will cease talking about it here, not only because most are not interested, but because I feel that it is rather arrogant for me to proclaim that 'my way is the best way' and to continue to discuss my pathway could be seen in that light.
As far as Japan goes, if you have something to offer them academically they will welcome you with open arms and do everything to encourage you to stay. If you also make it known that as part of your academic efforts that you wish to study their history, culture and language, the positions will become permanent in practice if not officially. They are proud of their culture and language, and are honored when 'outsiders' wish to study them. For the Westerner who has never been there, it seems hard to make friends or to fit in once the touristy things are done with, but having been there several times and having dear friends there that I am in constant touch with, about the hardest thing that I will have to do is find my way around without private transportation (way too expensive, and the mass transit is actually nice to use).
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding that I might have caused.
Best and 73,
Joe KB0TXC
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 26, 2009
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KB0TXC writes: "when I was very young, I remember the old drugstore cowboys saying things like "America,love it or leave it..." which really had nothing to do with loving America, rather it was more to do with agreeing with them."
That mindset is still alive and well today, just listen to most 'talk radio' shows, from "doctor" Laura to Rush.
KB0TXC: "The didactic soul will tell you that there is only right or wrong. Yes or no, on or off, white or black."
I see what you mean. However, many things *are* one or the other. What I think you mean is the person who thinks *everything* is one or the other. That's what I call a 'false binary'.
KB0TXC: "I grew tired of the "one and only way" as espoused by the usual Western religious-philosophical ways."
I know of some that aren't that way.
KB0TXC: "Unlike religions that practice evangelism, I will never attempt to get anyone to follow my path."
Not directly. But what many do is to 'preach by example'. Which is a lot harder, really.
KB0TXC: "I feel that it is rather arrogant for me to proclaim that 'my way is the best way' "
But you're not saying that.
What you're saying is that your way is the best way *for you* that you've found so far. I think the same thing about the path I've chosen.
KB0TXC: "Hope this clears up any misunderstanding that I might have caused."
Yes, it has. Thanks!
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 26, 2009
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KB0TXC posted on 25 Mar 09:
"The didactic soul will tell you that there is only right or wrong. Yes or no, on or off, white or black."
Incredibly (or maybe not) that describes so many of the olde-fahrts inhabiting e-ham.net forums, newsgroups, FCC Comments, and letters-to-the-editor in QST. :-)
"Our (amateur) way or the highway." Didactism. On-Off. Sort of like 'CW' is an absolute necessity for amateurism...GTFO if you can't/won't do it they said not long ago. :-)
.....................
KB0TXC: "I am not this way, at least I try not to be this way. That is why I started following (at age 13) the Eastern spiritual pathway. I grew tired of the "one and only way" as espoused by the usual Western religious-philosophical ways."
Almost, but not quite, a parallel to my experience. Growing up in a largely-Lutheran ethnic societal group, but never being forced into it while young, I got into it in my thirties after my own studies on Lutherism, notably how it came to be back at a time when the one-and-ONLY Christian religious affiliation RULED. I had some admiration for ol' Marty Luther who had the chutzpah to nail his own thesis on the church door (literally). :-)
Didactism. Or maybe "didactic materialism" as practiced at the Church of St. Hiram. Buy their publications to "Learn the Trvth" as the Church Elders speak down to us. Materialism, as in Money, honey. Tie the wallet 'tithe-t' to GIVE to the Church.
...............
KB0TXC: "...I will never try to make a 'convert' as I feel that I am no where near at the point where I should do such a thing."
I am opposed to that in philosophical principle, but only because I have the chutzpah to "go my own way," especially for a hobby activity that is done for personal pleasure. My only advocacy is to OPEN the USA amateur regulations, rather than keep them closed with rigid inflexible class distinction. For YEARS USA amateur radio was definitely NOT "in this together" and it is hypocritical nonsense to pretend otherwise.
"... I feel that it is rather arrogant for me to proclaim that 'my way is the best way' and to continue to discuss my pathway could be seen in that light."
The only "arrogance" presented is the continuing didactism (sometimes a dielectric, an insulator against new ideas, technology) of olde-fahrt Professional Amateurs. The rest of us "newbies" have to wait outside, use different toilets than those Professional Amateurs who Know All That God (ARRL) Told Them.
I believe in OPTIONS as free and open as possible in regulations. Olde-fahrt Professional Amateurs do not want that. They want 'professionalism' in a poor parody of their own imaginings of self-importance. They feel some "divine right of kings" in their rank, status, privileges and want to put others, especially newcomers "in their place."
...............
KB0TXC: "As far as Japan goes, if you have something to offer them academically they will welcome you with open arms and do everything to encourage you to stay."
My experience there is somewhat different considering a time only 8 years after the Allies defeated Japan. :-) The Occupation was over but the UN was involved in a very real War in Korea but Japanese, for all their ingrained, long-time social structure were marvelously flexible in restoring their own land and merchantability from 11 years of their own wars. They seem to have been quite good in resoration and becoming a trade force on the world scene. I've seen it happen, expanding in just 3 years I was there. It is hard to imagine any radio city as large or diversified as Akihabara in Tokyo for any radio or electronics hobbyist. Areas of NYC for that product were NEVER as large as Akihabara was for at least three decades. Here in the USA a general perception is still colored by the very real propaganda against Japan as an enemy during WWII. That prejudice remains today with only marginal lifting of such psychological bias, witness the relatively recent releases by two back-to-back Clint Eastwood WWII films, one of them being done IN Japanese! :-) Alas, racial bigotry is still within so many here, today.
As a parallel, there is 'radio bigotry' in amateur radio, spread and reinforced by those wonderful olde-fahrt Professional Amateurs in the USA. Brought to limelight 51 years ago by 11m CB allocation in the USA, Professional Amateurs are the 'white people' and CB-ers are the 'darkies,' the evil dark side of the force in these 'white people' depictions. It got worse in the 1980s with some proposals and Petitions before the FCC to have code-test-free license classes in USA amateur radio. As a headline in QST had it: "No Code? No Way!" No uncertain terms, the Great Voice of USA Amateurdom had SPOKEN! The Church of St. Hiram ruled the Religion of USA amateur radio and there shall be no radio god but Them.
Didactic as one could get. Just the same, R&O 90-53 established the first USA no-code Technician class in 1991...R&O 99-612 set the cap on code-test rates for all...R&O 06-178 tossed the code test in the dumpster. Finally. "We are free at last!" The League refused to change with the times, to "bend as the bamboo in the wind" to survive. I do hope the League cleans out their old broken trees and recycles it into paper for more of their Real product: publications. Be GREEN. Environmentally, that is, not green in the face for lack of 'appreciation and respect' of their Mighty Words...which were okay in 1935 but way out of date in 2005...or 1995...or even 1985.
But, the olde-fahrt Professional Amateurs won't accept that. It upsets their personal vision of being top dog in their (imaginary) pound, tossed out their BRAG rights of being "best" and beat their olde-tymer dogma flatter than road kill. If these olde-fahrts want to BE like the 1935 radio amateurs and bang their Fists on brass, fine, there is room for them and absolute option to do so. But...there is NO requirement to be FORCED into doing demonstrated 'CW' just to get INTO the hobby.
On reflection, it is interesting to BE one of the OLD guys in the hobby, my license being at the top of the amateur food chain, with a fair amount of RF communications under my experience belt. Then I MUST "run this gauntlet" from these much-younger "experts" in order to be "accepted." Sorry, that is UNacceptible. This hobby is NOT a "frat house" where "newbies" MUST be "initiated." At times it gets like "Animal House." Without comedy.
I've been "initiated" a very long time ago in RF communications and under much more stringent requirements than any civilian ever had to do. To those olde-fahrts who don't like that and can't control it, I just tell them to GFY. I can get OUT of this small part of radio activity, very small in terms of worldwide radio use, much easier than I got in. Given the attitudes of all these self-defined "experts" of amateur radio, getting out is looking more and more attractive to me. I will keep my license, even renew it when the time comes, since I feel I EARNED that every bit as much as anyone. The FCC does not object, yet a few in the 'amateur community' object strenuously. <shrug>
Now, if some olde-fahrt Professional Amateur wants to sound-off and Give Me Orders, I will just say GFY and add a salute (one-finger variety) as a gruss gott. I might even give them a link to Western Costume Co. here in Los Angeles, a good place to get an old WWII Wehrmacht uniform, complete with riding boots and monocle and swagger stick. They can play the Robust Oberst all they want from the feldhernnhugel. There just aren't that many nowadays who will listen to their bombastic didactic tactics spouted into the wind. Broken wind. Odor.
Enjoy OUR options. "Option is not a failure."
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K9FON on March 26, 2009
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IMHO new hams are treated like crap on the forums more than on the air!
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 27, 2009
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I agree Eric, I think what is important is that as the younger hams, (30s to 40s) become older that we don't become the "piss and moan better than you crowd" that we dispise so much.
Just buy up their equipment as they SK and move on.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by TIMEWILLTELL on March 27, 2009
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I am a single full time parent that works full time as well. So I enjoy the hobby, but at the pace that my life allows me to. I go to some of the local club meetings and I have found the new operators to be fun and entergetic, full of new ideas and ready to be active. I have also found that some of the new operators are very educated in radio technology. I hear on our local repeater a high school age operator occasionally gives the weather report and updates with good operator skills. Does he need to stop saying "mmmmm" between every word. Yes, but I don't care, he will get it eventually and I am sure that some old bitchie "I remember when" nut will climb all over his ass and he won't want to do it again. But if I see him I will tell him how nice it is to have new blood in the HOBBY.
If we had to retest in this hobby like you do in drivers license in most states, I would imagine when our older operators start loosing their minds and wearing depends they would fail to pass their test and we would be done with them. Or like with a restricted drivers license we could restrict them to 100 watts and to operate only in daylight hours. Oh, oh oh..........or just code.........thats the ticket.....restrict them to code only and disconnect their antenna so they are just talking to their self for hours, correcting their own code, telling themselves how much better it use to be in the old days.
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 27, 2009
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To N2ey
I did not try to imply that because cw or formulas or electronic theory may be difficult for someone that any area of testing should be removed from amateur licensing. I do believe however, that cw is an old antiquated mode of operation. It is not 1930 anymore, I believe that cw has been an unnecessary impediment for nearly 50 years. I always believed cw would be eliminated in the amateur spectrum, I also believe that AM will be eliminated due to the spectrum it takes to operate, it is just a matter of when. Times change and progress, and progress is always open to a persons definition whether you like it or not.
It is kind of like employment, I worked for an employer for 27 1/2 years. The business was founded in the 1800's. All of their ideas from customers to employees and their treatment went back to the ideas of the 1800's. Where are they today? Gone! Why, because 100 year old business ideas do not cut it in today's world economy. The same pathetic non-thinking, non-planning, non-changing strategies sunk their company. I work for a very new upcoming expanding company now, with ideas for today's world. When I go to work now the last thing that crosses my mind is when will this company close? You know why, diversity and change keep it at the forefront of their business.
If you are to survive in any area of the world, that means changing as needs change, and times change. Sitting back holding on to 100 year old ideas does nothing for business, or amateur radio.
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 27, 2009
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AB9PM posted on 27 Mar 09:
"If you are to survive in any area of the world, that means changing as needs change, and times change. Sitting back holding on to 100 year old ideas does nothing for business, or amateur radio."
Dave, I couldn't agree more.
In reflection, as one of the chronologically-ancient in here, I'll remark on a personal fact: My late father and late father-in-law were both born in the year 1900. That was one year before Marconi got his 'S' across the Atlantic, three years before the Wright brothers managed the first heavier-than-air powered flight on a North Carolina beach. Both men lived to watch the first humans walk on the Moon's surface on LIVE Television from the comfort of their respective homes...as millions of other humans did all around the Earth. What an astounding leap of technology in both flight and electronics within just seven decades!!!
In flight alone we've come from wood, wire, and cloth materials and primitive gasoline engines to titanium and steel structures with after-burning jet engine craft capable of three times the speed of sound. We have achieved rockets of seven million pounds of thrust that can put three humans in flight to the Moon and back, a total distance of half a million miles. We can all ride as passengers on air carriers at near-sonic speeds anywhere in the world within 24 hours in the rerified air over five miles above the surface.
In electronics we've come from battery-powered wired telegraphy and 'spark' transmitters of 'radio' that could, at first, reach only 30 miles...to automated two-way radio remote control robots exploring the surface of the planet Mars, complete with three-dimensional-capability imagery in wavelengths beyond human visual perception. All within the span of a century.
We now have consumer-grade personal computers with more speed and storage and audio-visual displays than could ever be imagined in the first days of primitive mainframe computers. We already have marvelous digital television, stereophonic audio broadcasting for the masses. We have had an Internet open to all who have access to providers for 18 years, a fact that has changed the social fabric of the world, both private and commercial. We can span the world in telephony wherever there is another telephone to connect with...without worrying about conditions of the ionosphere. We have safe ultra-sound to magnetic-resonance non-intrusive examination of any part of our bodies for health professionals...plus electronic glucose monitors, blood pressure measuring automata useable by anyone who can read...not to mention things like cardiac pacemakers and other things implantable to make our lives better, such as replacement bones and joints. The list of improvements done in just a century is massive and it is GOOD for all of us.
I was born in the year 1932, two years before the FCC was created. Of course on-off keyed CW manual telegraphy was KING of long-distance radio communications THEN. 'Semiconductors' didn't exist as a word then and the semiconductor-like devices were primitive. Vacuum tubes were only 26 years old, barely into commercial manufacturing standardization with somewhat questionable quality control methods. 'Radio' itself was only 36 years old as a 'wireless' communications medium. The 'expert' radio operators were those with an ability to receive and send on-off keyed CW signals. Voice communications by individuals was rare and costly and confined largely to broadcasting and commercial interests. "Shortwave" radio ruled majority thinking yet truly short wavelengths were in the realm of science-fiction to most. The first conflicts of World War II would begin in two years and continue until 1945. The needs of warfare accelerated the technology of all electronics.
In the amateur radio hobby activity, the "expert radio operators" all enshrined themselves with the mythos of morse well PAST the times when OTHER modes and modulations had Taken Over the vast majority of ALL wireless communications. The Myth had become so ingrained in some that it became a quasi-religion, a skill to WORSHIP as decreed by these exhibits of a living museum of archaic radio skills. In a HOBBY activity. These exhibits of the museum managed to DELAY access to their beloved "The Bands" until 19 December, 2006, when the FCC announced that all USA amateur radio license examination manual telegraphy cognition testing would be eliminated. The rest of the radio world could have cared less...they had dropped manual morse for communications well before that.
Yet, all these living exhibits want us all (in a HOBBY!) to retrograde outselves DOWN to THEIR museum levels in order to be "worthy" of being footnotes to Their museum exhibits. And they demanded that federal regulations be KEPT at retrograde levels worldwide until 2003, all to appease Their Fat Cat attitudes from meeting 1930s standards and practices. I don't feel sorry or have any pity for those Fat Cats who had their Rich Cream of bragging rights of radiotelegraphy skills taken away from them.
73, Len AF6AY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 27, 2009
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AB9PM writes: "I did not try to imply that because cw or formulas or electronic theory may be difficult for someone that any area of testing should be removed from amateur licensing."
OK so far.
My point was that ANY nontrivial test is going to keep some people out. You may not have thought the written exams were difficult, but I'm sure there are plenty of would-be hams who think very differently.
I once Elmered a ham who had tried the Advanced written exam 8 times and failed each time before I met him. (Ninth time, he passed). His problem was that he wasn't very good at math or remembering formulas, particularly which formula to use for which problem.
Those formulas limited his participation in amateur radio for *years*.
Note too that all amateur frequencies above 30 MHz have been available in the USA without a code test for 18 years. All classes of amateur license in the USA have been available for just a 5 wpm code test for 19 years (code waivers) and the code test could include all kinds of accomodations, including substitution of a sending test for the receiving test. The FCC couldn't eliminate the last remaining remnants of code testing until 2003 because of the ITU-R treaty.
Most of all, the reduction and removal of the Morse Code tests haven't resulted in massive growth of our numbers.
AB9PM: "I do believe however, that cw is an old antiquated mode of operation."
I don't believe that at all. Even if something is old, that does not make it antiquated, nor mean that it shouldn't be used.
AB9PM: "It is not 1930 anymore,"
No, it isn't. But the use of Morse Code in radio continued long after 1930. It was widely used in the US and other militaries for decades after 1930, as well as by commercial radio services. Only in the past ~20 years has its use outside of amateur radio become rare.
And regardless of what other radio services do, radio amateurs continue to use Morse Code extensively, today, in 2009. Only the TEST is gone.
AB9PM: "I believe that cw has been an unnecessary impediment for nearly 50 years."
I disagree.
AB9PM: "I always believed cw would be eliminated in the amateur spectrum, I also believe that AM will be eliminated due to the spectrum it takes to operate, it is just a matter of when."
So you're saying that eliminating the Morse Code TEST isn't enough? Are you really saying that the USE of Morse Code in amateur radio should end?
If so, WHY?
The same for AM. Sure, it uses more spectrum than SSB. But SSB uses more spectrum than RTTY (another old mode, btw) and even more than Morse Code. Should the USE of AM in amateur radio end?
AB9PM: "Times change and progress, and progress is always open to a persons definition whether you like it or not."
Whose definition of "progress" should we use? Do you think that the elimination of Morse Code USE (not the test - the USE) from amateur radio would be progress? I don't.
I am not against progress at all. But I have seen too many cases where someone tried to sell a change as progress when it wasn't progress at all.
AB9PM: "It is kind of like employment, I worked for an employer for 27 1/2 years. The business was founded in the 1800's. All of their ideas from customers to employees and their treatment went back to the ideas of the 1800's. Where are they today? Gone! Why, because 100 year old business ideas do not cut it in today's world economy."
What sort of ideas? The 1800s were a pretty ruthless time for businesses.
AB9PM: "The same pathetic non-thinking, non-planning, non-changing strategies sunk their company. I work for a very new upcoming expanding company now, with ideas for today's world. When I go to work now the last thing that crosses my mind is when will this company close? You know why, diversity and change keep it at the forefront of their business."
And yet, many new companies with new ideas fail.
AB9PM: "If you are to survive in any area of the world, that means changing as needs change, and times change."
Of course! But it also means holding on to good things from the past, even if they are old.
AB9PM: "Sitting back holding on to 100 year old ideas does nothing for business, or amateur radio."
Sorry, that's simply not true.
Just because something is old doesn't make it bad. Look at your keyboard - I bet it has the traditional QWERTY layout. That layout was worked out in the early 1870s - should we drop it just because it's old?
Or consider things like the US Constitution, which has only been changed 17 times in the past couple of hundred years (the first ten amendments were implemented almost immediately after it was ratified). Should we dump the ideas of the Constitution just because they're over 200 years old?
Most of all, amateur radio is not a business. So the idea that the same rules apply is not valid.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 27, 2009
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Len reminded me of a more personal matter in the span of 70 years regarding technology. My maternal grandmother went completely blind due to narrow angle glaucoma. My mother went partially blind but in later stages was kept from going totally blind by the introduction of laser surgery. Now I, as a third generation recipient of narrow angle glaucoma has had my eyesight saved by laser surgery. Without the technological changes and advancements, I would also have been blind for 10 years already. Advancements are not always bad, it is when we close the door to the future, that possibilities are never realized.
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 27, 2009
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N2ey, I do not advocate getting rid of/ outlawing cw, am, rtty or any other mode. I always stand by the right of any amateur to use any mode THEY CHOOSE, but not what YOU choose for someone else. I just believe times will change and as it does new options will become available. In 50 years people may be laughing at ssb, as an old antiquated out of date communication mode for all I know, (I will be dead so I will not know).
CW is not my thing. If it was I would have learned it already. I can read it, I don't care for it. One of the local hams was wearing a "shit happens" t-shirt spelled out in morse code on his shirt. When I was a swl at this hamfest about a quarter century ago, he couldn't believe I could read his shirt, because other hams couldn't read morse code, only by hearing it could they decipher it.
I believe hobbies are for fun, not for perfection, and not to be made into work. If a hobby is a frustration it isn't a hobby. I left other hobbies were I found more frustrations than rewards. I and my son have explored many hobbies at great expense, including radio controlled racing. Take paintball for instance, getting bruised by those damn things are not fun to me. I understand the sport and the goal to the game, but again not for me. You can take your hobby to any level you want, just as I will take my hobby to the level I want.
So understand the point and do not stretch my words, as this isn't congress. The biggest problem with the fist pounders are they are so scared of losing their "right" to their cw bandwidth, they attack all the non-believers (non-participators) in cw thus known as the new class of ham who do not have to test for it. I do not oppose what you have, or want to do, just don't include me in it, and do not add words in your own mind I did not say. That is why others have accused you of being a "Legend in your own mind!"
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by AB9PM on March 27, 2009
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N2ey, I do not advocate getting rid of/ outlawing cw, am, rtty or any other mode. I always stand by the right of any amateur to use any mode THEY CHOOSE, but not what YOU choose for someone else. I just believe times will change and as it does new options will become available. In 50 years people may be laughing at ssb, as an old antiquated out of date communication mode for all I know, (I will be dead so I will not know).
CW is not my thing. If it was I would have learned it already. I can read it, I don't care for it. One of the local hams was wearing a "shit happens" t-shirt spelled out in morse code on his shirt. When I was a swl at this hamfest about a quarter century ago, he couldn't believe I could read his shirt, because other hams couldn't read morse code, only by hearing it could they decipher it.
I believe hobbies are for fun, not for perfection, and not to be made into work. If a hobby is a frustration it isn't a hobby. I left other hobbies were I found more frustrations than rewards. I and my son have explored many hobbies at great expense, including radio controlled racing. Take paintball for instance, getting bruised by those damn things are not fun to me. I understand the sport and the goal to the game, but again not for me. You can take your hobby to any level you want, just as I will take my hobby to the level I want.
So understand the point and do not stretch my words, as this isn't congress. The biggest problem with the fist pounders are they are so scared of losing their "right" to their cw bandwidth, they attack all the non-believers (non-participators) in cw thus known as the new class of ham who do not have to test for it. I do not oppose what you have, or want to do, just don't include me in it, and do not add words in your own mind I did not say. That is why others have accused you of being a "Legend in your own mind!"
Dave
AB9PM
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by N2EY on March 27, 2009
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AB9PM: "I do not advocate getting rid of/ outlawing cw, am, rtty or any other mode."
OK, fine. But in an earlier post, it sounded like that.
AB9PM: "I always stand by the right of any amateur to use any mode THEY CHOOSE, but not what YOU choose for someone else."
I don't choose a mode for anyone but me. I do, however, promote the use of Morse Code in amateur radio, just as others promote the use of their favorite modes. Is that wrong?
AB9PM: "I just believe times will change and as it does new options will become available."
Of course. But that does not mean old things must go. SSB has been around on radio since the 1920s and on the ham bands since the 1930s.
AB9PM: "CW is not my thing."
I've never said it should be.
AB9PM: " he couldn't believe I could read his shirt, because other hams couldn't read morse code, only by hearing it could they decipher it."
I can do both. So can lots of folks.
AB9PM: "I believe hobbies are for fun, not for perfection, and not to be made into work."
What do you mean by perfection, Dave? Nothing in amateur radio demands perfection, from what I can see.
AB9PM: "You can take your hobby to any level you want, just as I will take my hobby to the level I want."
Agreed - so what's the problem? If someone decides to take amateur radio to a higher level, is that wrong?
AB9PM: "So understand the point and do not stretch my words, as this isn't congress."
With all due respect, Dave, sometimes your meaning isn't very clear. In a previous post, it sure seemed as if you wanted Morse Code and AM to disappear from the amateur bands.
AB9PM: "The biggest problem with the fist pounders are they are so scared of losing their "right" to their cw bandwidth, they attack all the non-believers (non-participators) in cw thus known as the new class of ham who do not have to test for it."
I do a lot of Morse Code operating. Where have I attacked someone simply because they didn't pass a code test? Show me some exact quotes, not vague accusations.
btw, the only "CW-only bandwidth" in US amateur radio is the bottom 100 kHz of 6 and 2 meters. All the rest is shared with other modes.
AB9PM: "I do not oppose what you have, or want to do, just don't include me in it, and do not add words in your own mind I did not say."
In an earlier post you complained about the lack of welcome you received on the 'phone subbands. I pointed out thst you'd probably get a much different reception operating CW. Was it wrong of me to point that out, even as a suggestion?
The meaning of what you wrote isn't always clear. For example, you speak of 'perfection' but don't explain what you mean by it. Is it wrong of me to ask for an explanation?
AB9PM: "That is why others have accused you of being a "Legend in your own mind!" "
Which others?
I simply write what I think and observe. I have noticed that some folks, when faced with a logical, factual argument of mine, react with personal attacks, name-calling, false quotes, and even outright lies about me.
Doing so doesn't make them right, nor does it prove me wrong.
---
btw, Dave, I'm glad that progress in medicine has saved your sight.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Aren't We All In This Together?
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by K6LHA on March 27, 2009
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AB9PM posted on 27 Mar 09:
"Len reminded me of a more personal matter in the span of 70 years regarding technology."
Somehow there is some sort of telepathy going on...:-)
"My maternal grandmother went completely blind due to narrow angle glaucoma. My mother went partially blind but in later stages was kept from going totally blind by the introduction of laser surgery. Now I, as a third generation recipient of narrow angle glaucoma has had my eyesight saved by laser surgery. Without the technological changes and advancements, I would also have been blind for 10 years already. Advancements are not always bad, it is when we close the door to the future, that possibilities are never realized."
Glaucoma is characterized by an over-normal pressure of the fluid within the eye. There are absolutely no symptoms felt until the continuation of pressure can result in irreversible deterioration of the retina. That's the simple explanation given me by an MD, a specialist in opthalmology, back in 1974. In my case it appears to be genetic, from my mother's side of the family. With continuation of topical medication ('drops in the eye') it has been kept within normal pressure range. It does require continual monitoring of the retinal condition and with six-month field of vision testing. The latter two are a result of electronic and optical technology advancements since the 1960s. There ARE more advanced techniques available to prevent even partial blindness and I've been informed of those by my present opthalmologist. Fortunately more advanced symptoms have not shown up and I feel lucky.
But, this whole argument "in favor of the OLD" wasn't really about the subject of OLD or NEW, it was merely a defense of the olde-tymers for Their supreme accomplishments and to please Their ego as They wish to Rule absolutely over all those who come after. The olde-tyme Fat Cats just can't give up their Rich Cream of bragging rights and "how good They are." Ptui.
As for being a 'business' or commercial activity of professionals (meaning they get paid for services), N2EY is right in that amateur radio is, BY DEFINITION OF THE FCC, not professional. Yet N2EY is, without a doubt, one of the persistent loyal royal Professional Amateurs on forums, always 'correcting' some persons (whom he doesn't like) for 'infractions,' even if those 'infractions' are personal opinions which differs from his. Yes, N2EY has become a "legend in his own mind" and will not rest if anyone dares tarnish that legend. It is just such arrogant attitudes of His that discourages rather than encourages newcomers and independent old-timers alike.
Aren't we all in this together? ABSOLUTELY NOT. It hasn't been that way for a half century in USA amateur radio. But, in the fashion of (self) established 'royalty,' those who have achieved their rank-status-privilege in the hobby are loathe to give it up. The Professional Amateurs don't want to yield any options for the future, it must remain as it was for those Professional Amateurs. It took over seven years to get the FCC to pare down the Class Distinction in USA amateur radio, to make it more viable with more options for all. That was done in spite of the attitudes of the Professional Amateurs. While Those royals claimed some "divine right of kings," They failed to notice they worshipped the wrong deity.
73, Len AF6AY
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