Proper Phonetics!
from
John D. Tate - KX5JT
on
May 14, 2009
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I have a pet peeve. I wish that amateurs would always use the accepted ITU approved phonetic alphabet when phonetics are used. Hams in all countries generally understand the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) phonetic alphabet. It is used when signing your call or passing information that must be spelled out.
The ITU adopted the NATO phonetic alphabet developed in the 1950s to be intelligible and pronounceable, and is generally understood by all amateur radio operators around the world. It has a long history of working very well in harsh phone conditions.
My callsign phonetically is Kilo X-ray Five Juliet Tango. If conditions are rough, I'll repeat it phonetically several times. ALL amateurs should KNOW those phonetics, and in my experience they DO! It corrects any misunderstandings very rapidly. If using those phonetics do not clear up a misheard letter, then the conditions are just not favorable for a phone contact.
My callsign phonetically is NOT Kilowatt Xylophone Five Jupiter Toyota. It is NOT Killer Xerox Five Juicy Tangerines. It is Kilo X-ray Five Juliet Tango. Whether you are in Indiana or India, as an amateur radio operator (or any voice communications type person) you will understand the ITU phonetic alphabet.
It's a pet peeve of mine. You will all do what you will, but I know it is much more impressive and I consider it to be GOOD OPERATING PRATICE to use the ITU phonetic alphabet.
NATO/ITU Phonetic Alphabet
A - Alfa
B - Bravo
C - Charlie
D - Delta
E - Echo
F - Foxtrot
G - Golf
H - Hotel
I - India
J - Juliet
K - Kilo
L - Lima
M - Mike
N - November
O - Oscar
P - Papa
Q - Quebec
R - Romeo
S - Sierra
T - Tango
U - Uniform
V - Victor
W - Whiskey
X - X-Ray
Y - Yankee
Z - Zulu
73 from KX5JT, John
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Proper Phonetics!
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by N2RRA on May 14, 2009
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John,
I'm guilty of using November 2 Roger Roger Able, or November 2 Radio Radio America, but always start off with November 2 Romeo Romeo Alpha. Reason is I know that those phonetics will always be understood well from the get.
I use logic while having fun with my call sign being all fancy smancy about it when conditions a very good. On the other hand when I know their bad, or when someone has trouble understanding my transmission in the QRN, QSB, or QRM the proper phonetics always gets through.
I agree that most now at days either don't know the proper phonetics or when to use them effectively. If everyone used them properly I guess it would rub off on those who have trouble with it.
73!
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KC5HMC on May 14, 2009
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Thanks you!!
On an interesting note someone might find this site interesting.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq101-1.htm
Herb KC5MO former KC5HMC
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by KC0TJO on May 14, 2009
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I could not agree more. It gets really confusing when conditions are poor and the guy on the other end is using a place name in his callsign.
73,
Kilo Charlie Zero Tango Juliet Oscar
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by KD5NVC on May 14, 2009
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John, good point! It makes for good communications when you can all use the same format. Of course there are those who believe they know better or want to be cool...
73
Glenn
KD5NVC
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by K8MMG on May 14, 2009
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I couldn't disagree more. When working DX: I have found that if I use standard phonetics, the Kilo and the Golf are almost always lost to the other station. However, if I use Kilowatt and Germany instead, no problems.
I will continue using what works for me.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KI9A on May 14, 2009
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Wow. Relax. just be happy folks are getting on the air, and stop being so cranky.
73 de Kilo India Nine America
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N4LI on May 14, 2009
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I often use the standard phonetics, but when working US stations (as I often do on 6m & 2m weak signal) NOTHING works like:
November-4-Long Island.
They always get it, and NEVER ask if they have the whole call. If that makes me a bad op, so be it.
Peter, N4LI
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W9OY on May 14, 2009
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Cheeze it....it's the phonetic police
Isn't that an ARRL office OPP official Phonetic Police?
de W9OY
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by N4OI on May 14, 2009
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I always use standard phonetics, but they get a little cumbersome when using morse code. It would be great to have some abbreviated phonetics for CW use. 73 de Ken -- N4OI
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K8QV on May 14, 2009
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That the ITU phonetics are universally accepted and understood is a good theory, but it's just not the case.
I almost exclusively work DX, and when on phone, my call is often misunderstood with the "standard" phonetics. The words "Quebec Victor" get lost, but everyone worldwide understands immediately if I say "Queen Victoria." It works every time. In fact, I've had ops finally understand the words "Quebec Victor" and come back with, "Okay, Queen Victoria."
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by WA8MEA on May 14, 2009
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There are differing accents all over the United States and the world. What might sound like "Mike" to someone....might sound like "Gulf" to a DX station with poor reception conditions.
I use the standard phonetics and then repeat them with what I call "Location Phonetics"
73 from....
Washington, America, Number Eight, Mexico, Ecuador, America
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by NY7Q on May 14, 2009
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Been a pet peeve of mine for years. You can always tell the newbies, because they think its cute to use phonetics other than proper ones.
Makes them sound so stupid.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K8YZK on May 14, 2009
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My Pet Peeve is others telling others that this is the right way and the only way.
Used the military way, the work way(dispatcher for a PD which used a different one set of phonetics), and of course the made up ones. Whatever gets the info across and works doesn't make a difference.
Kurt
K8YZK
King Eight Young Zany KooK
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by AF3Y on May 14, 2009
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NY7Q sez: "Been a pet peeve of mine for years. You can always tell the newbies, because they think its cute to use phonetics other than proper ones".
Maybe.... BUT I have heard more junk phonetics from the old pharts when I used to work a lot of SSB (Dont go there much anymore). I used to get SO darn tired of WILLIE BAKER (That one always bugs me). And - worse yet, MICKEY MOUSE for Marine Mobile. So Dont put the onus just on the newbies. Most I have heard lately did better than the old codgers.
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by KC9ATJ on May 14, 2009
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My biggest pet peeve phonetic wise is when people use Kilowatt. I think because Kilo is phonetic for 'K' I hear kilowatt I think 'KW.'
Joel
KC9ATJ
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N0YXB on May 14, 2009
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I agree with the author. The standard phonetic alphabet is easy to learn. I don't suggest we have to rigidly adhere to the standard, and some hams have come up with some unique and memorable substitutes for the standard phonetic alphabet when giving their call sign. There are reasons the military uses this standard and that appears to be lost on some of the posters here. The military is made of diverse accents from throughout the country and the phonetic standard works great. Some of the home grown phonetics being used are really tough to understand during poor conditions.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by G3LBS on May 14, 2009
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W-Whisky, 2 One-Two, S sugar - slash, Gee-whiz, 1 2 3 Three, London Bus Shelter
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K9FON on May 14, 2009
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Yes i agree. The only phonetics i use are the ones that were taught to me in the ARMY. They are the same as the ITU phonetics. I dont like he cutie pie phonetics some hams use on the air.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W8FN on May 14, 2009
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I agree with K8MMG. While it sounds nice in theory to use the standard, don't forget the ICAO phonetics were designed for aircraft communications, where an excellent signal-to-noise and interference ratio is always assumed. In HF communications, especially in DX contest situations, conditions are widely divergent from this ideal. Trying to push "Golf" across a noisy circuit to a non-native English speaker is extremely difficult.
And there's also the matter of talk power. Watch your wattmeter and try some different phonetics. I've found that in my case "Whiskey Eight Foxtrot November" produces far less QRM-fighting average power (and fewer contacts) than "Washington Eight Florida Norway".
We're in the business of communications, so do what it takes to get the information across the circuit. What works great on the local 2m repeater is not always going to be suitable in a roaring pileup in the middle of the CQWW DX Phone contest. We're hams, we're supposed to be adapatable.
73...
Randy, W8FN
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 14, 2009
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Ohhh MY!
If I don't correct everyone you uses Estimated Time of Arrival as phonetics for my call, does that make me a Noob?!
When I first got on two meters, sometime in the 80s, I used to chat with Holly, W1 Cake of Ice. Guess he never out grew being a noob after he got his original issue call of W1COI.
I still remember W8 Father and Mother, another original issue call holder; ZS4 Push Button, Peter The South African Cowboy from the late 70s.
May be the Noob is someone asserting only noobs use non-standardized phonetics? Just hasn't been around long enough to know the traditions of original 1X2s and 1X3s?
Could be the easy way to identify noobs is anyone using MHz?
Anyone using a rig or amp with 160 in it--guilty of using noob gear!
Transceiver! Strictly for noobs! :-)
10-10 number, Noob stuff straight from CB. :-)
Real hams use metal tubes; noobs use transistors.
73
Bob
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by K7BAB on May 14, 2009
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A local standard broadcast station would identify itself by using “cute” phonetics exclusively.
They still do, but on the half hour they announce their call letters “straight” and their service location as per FCC rules.
I wonder if this “rule” would be applicable to the Amateur Radio Service?
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WV4L on May 14, 2009
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"I couldn't disagree more. When working DX: I have found that if I use standard phonetics, the Kilo and the Golf are almost always lost to the other station. However, if I use Kilowatt and Germany instead, no problems.
I will continue using what works for me."
I concur with the DX issue. I always use standard when working US stations. When working DX stations "Lima" is always lost or confused with something else. If I use "London" they get it right every time.
73
WV4L
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K8SOR on May 14, 2009
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Being licensed for over 49 years. ( 2-15-1960 ) I have heard all types of phonetics, some good, some funny. If conditions are good, and you're in a ragchew with people you know, the oddball phonetics are ok. If you're working dx, then stick to the standard. Just my 2 cts. I like CW---don't need phonetics. It's 65 degrees and light rain here---Good time for radio. 73
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Proper Phonetics make the difference!
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by AI2IA on May 14, 2009
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Proper phonetics also serve to make concise and speed up accurate communication. In contests for example, the use of non-conventional and often exotic phonetics slows down recognition by a fraction of a second or two as the brain searches the comparison list of sounds versus words. Often these odd words are a distraction adding to the delay. In DX pile-ups they can cost you a contact.
I tolerate them because many hams use them regardless of proper form, but I don't like them.
Only one really drives me nuts - "kiloWatt"! To me that is a great offender because it mixes a legitimate and useful word found in contact conversation with a poorly picked phonetic. I can't stand that usage. Ah, well, most will keep on using it.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by AJ4MJ on May 14, 2009
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My sentiments exactly! It bothered me so much that I learned CW and don't work SSB anymore. Problem solved!
I have been a pilot much longer than I have been a ham. You will absolutely never hear non-standard phonetics coming from ATC, and rarely do you hear it from another aircraft. When you do hear "Able Baker Sugar", it's being screamed out by some old guy who refuses to wear a headset :-)
That being said, I don't mind people using cutesy phonetics as a memory aid. If I tell someone "Alpha Juliet Four Mike Juliet" several times and they still can't get it right (and it's obvious they can hear me OK), "Amazon Jewels For My Junk" will usually stick in their head. But, the initial exchange should always be done with proper phonetics.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W4CP on May 14, 2009
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NY7Q sez: "Been a pet peeve of mine for years. You can always tell the newbies, because they think its cute to use phonetics other than proper ones".
I *usually* use standard phonetics, but like others have said, sometimes they don't get through well so then you USE WHAT WORKS.
And on 2 meters, I find that people remember my call more readily if I tell them Whiskey 4 Cotton Pickers. Even then, out of habit I usually use the ITU phonetics first. And yes, sometimes they are needed even on repeaters, because people can say their calls too fast, or slur them. And sometimes people are weak into the repeater.
More strict adherence to ITU phonetics is called for during emergency comms. Then you are pretty sure that the receiving station should be familiar with them, and *expecting* them, and under these circumstances they almost always work best.
BTW, I'm not exactly a newbie. Been licensed over 40 years.
So, in the immortal words of Sergeant Hulka in the movie "Stripes", "Lighten up, Francis."
73,
Curt W4CP
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W4KVW on May 14, 2009
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When working DX I use the CORRECT phonetics but within the states it,"WANTED 4 KISSING VANNA WHITE" & if you don't like that your mad because it's NOT you! }:>) Like a speed bump,get over it!
Clayton
W4KVW
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6NKN on May 14, 2009
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Another eHam waste of bandwidth.
November 6 November Kilowatt November.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by G6PBS on May 14, 2009
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Roger Roger,
Proper phonetics is the way to go, why? Because it WORKS!
I give my call sign as: Golf 6 Papa Bravo Sierra
If we have made contact or you know me then maybe I'll through in Golf 6 Peanut Butter Sandwich HI HI
Only really speak on 2 metres anyway as I'm a QRP CW op. ;)
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA7NCL on May 14, 2009
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Golf Echo Tango break Oscar Victor Echo Romeo break India Tango
end of message.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by G0RIF on May 14, 2009
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As at least one other op has commented, the 'GOLF' in a call can often not get through cleanly. I suppose it's kind of a 'soft' sound, unlike 'ECHO' (for instance) which has real punch.
For that reason alone I sometimes sign as Germany Zero Romeo India Foxtrot - the more percussive 'GERMANY' can work better than 'GOLF' under some circumstances.
Cheers,
Dean - G0RIF
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Proper Phonetics!
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by WW5AA on May 14, 2009
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My favorite phonetic is my friend CR!
Knickabocker Knickabocker 5 Knickabocker pnemonia.
It just drives the anal retentive up the wall (:-)
73 de Lindy
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KF7CG on May 14, 2009
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As one with bad ITU phonetics in there call, I can say for certainty that they don't always work as well as they should. Kilo Fox-trot 7 Charlie Golf is always less reliable than Kilo Fox 7 Charlie Golf. Often Kilo Fox 7 Coast Guard is the best though I reserve that for a last resort as I have never been associated with that branch of the military.
The gold standard of all this is to be understood! If the standard isn't working for some reason go to as many back ups as necessary.
KF7CG
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K0OD on May 14, 2009
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Am I the only one who still remembers the "official" ARRL ham phonetics from the early 50s?
Just because two privates from the Belgian Coast Guard came up with the ITU list 50 years ago doesn't make it mandatory for my purposes.
Kilowatt has always bugged me for the reasons given.
And how the heck does one pronounce Quebec? I say Qwee-bek but some, including some from Canada often say Kay-bek. Bad phonetic.
Don't even get me started on the asinine Broderick Crawford-sounding "Niner" for the number nine.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by N9GC on May 14, 2009
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My callsign (made up with my initials) is one of the worst - WC0V - for SSB. The ICAO phonetics under mediocre conditions just don't get thru. I spent ten minutes one afternoon trying to get the call across and finally succeeded with Washington-Canada-Ontario-Victoria. The receiving station wasn't a native English speaker.
But this combo of letters and number also defeats 75% of anyone hearing it the first time locally as well. I will have a new callsign sometime soon.
As one responder mentioned, the ICAO alphabet was meant for non-native English speakers over VHF/UHF channels with good S/N condx. We need something better that doesn't take an afternoon to get the callsign across.
73, Carl WC0V (for now)
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Noob Hallmarks
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by W7ETA on May 14, 2009
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How to tell if you are a Noob:
You describe a novice op as a noob.
You took a VE test.
You choose your call
Your call doesn't represent your call area.
You don't log all unanswered CQs.
You didn't wait for a the new bands to open.
Your first rig had a digital frequency display
Your first rig had dual VFOs
You think dipping the plate is about washing dishes.
You think a Preselector is used in issuing credit cards.
You've never ridden the RF gain with the AGC OFF.
You don't have The Canal Zone confirmed.
You think grounded grid causes black outs.
You think crystal is for Meth users.
You bought your first antenna.
You don't have any paper logs.
You think Yellow Sheets refers to old faded paper.
A 1X1 call makes sense to you.
You think sweep tubes are used for house cleaning.
You think PP is urine.
You think common mode currents are gay.
You think that class "C" refers to what used to be the average school grade.
You think "Second Op" refers to another person in the shack.
You think phone contests consume entire hams bands, and all of the ham bands.
You think 599K is a contest report.
ANd lastly, drum roll please--noobs think in years instead of sunspot cycles.
vy 73
Bob, W7ETA
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RE: Noob Hallmarks
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by K0OD on May 14, 2009
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W7ETA. That is so hilarious and true.
"You bought your first antenna"
And it was a dipole.
And it didn't work.
Even after using $500 worth of MFJ gizmos to tune it!
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K3PRN on May 14, 2009
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John:
I agree with you absolutely! I worked with a local county in Maryland and they used a strange mixture of phonetics. They asked where mine was from and I told them Nato!
Now I run PSK31 100% of the time and thankfully do not have this problem!
73,
Don K3PRN
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KX5JT on May 14, 2009
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K8MMG said:
I couldn't disagree more. When working DX: I have found that if I use standard phonetics, the Kilo and the Golf are almost always lost to the other station. However, if I use Kilowatt and Germany instead, no problems.
**********************
The problem for ME when I hear this is that at first I think you are IN GERMANY running a KILOWATT PEP!
How often do I think a station is in Norway, London or Japan due to the ridiculous pratice of using PLACES as phonetics.... I know I'm not the only one!
73, peace and I just thought I'd share...
John, KX5JT
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KG6TT on May 14, 2009
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I totally agree... as simple as that. Being 'understood' has many meanings. In this case being 'expected' (using phonetics from a known, promoted world-wide expected list phonetics) promotes better 'understanding'. Understood? :)
73,
Jerry, KG6TT
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N1ERF on May 14, 2009
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The issue I have when cutesy phonetics are used, is
you have to stop the flow of your doing and re-interpret
what the other person is saying. I always think "what?
Say that again?". It would be like converting Morse to
Klingon on the fly.
It's probably fine when you are with friends who already
know you, otherwise it's just an annoyance.
Standards help avoid confusion and delay.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by AI8P on May 14, 2009
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I understand the use of places - if a Ham operator is working DX, or is DX, they have heard of London, Germany, etc, so that makes perfect sense. And I can't argue too much with anyone using Radio since it's hard to imagine even a non-English speaking Ham that doesn't know that word. But the ones that are cutsy in English or use US locations may be completely unknown to DX.
this reminds me of my very first Field Day - I was a new Tech and I was logging with a very patient operator on SSB - when the other station said "Pa-Pa" I logged "PP". The operator had a good laugh over that one.
I hope to hear some of you on the bands using phonetics of some kind - it beats the alternative.
de Dennis, Alpha India Eight Papa (or Pop a )
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KC0NPF on May 14, 2009
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Amen.
The phonetic alphabet was chosen for a reason. Use it. Its fine to use something a little different if you want to be 'cute' on the local repeaters, but its very unprofessional and immature to use nonstandard phonetics when someone is really trying to copy you or get information through.
I can understand the phonetic alphabet fine through all sorts of accents too, people of other nationalities who's main language is not English can communicate with the monolingual Americans using standard phonetics (International Telecommunications Union... yeah that)
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Proper Phonetics!
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by N0AH on May 14, 2009
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Where is the list that all of these no-code sxtras and CB generals use? It ca nbe like listening to Bozo's Fun Club some days on 20 meters.
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RE: Noob Hallmarks
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by KC0UZA on May 14, 2009
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Lets see. 13 out of 24. Yep, I'm a noob or at least newer. I got me one of them new fandangled transistor radio gizmos. You know the ones without the tubes in em. Kinda wanted one but Mr. Fudd told me I didn't deserve one since I couldn't grind my own crystals or make my own tubes.
Guess I'll settle for the new stuff as poor as it is.
At least I use the approved phonetic alphabet. KILO CHARLIE ZERO UNIFORM ZULU ALPHA. Sheesh what a mouthful. I'm gonna have to get me a shorter number. Make that 14 out of 24.
73
Mike
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RE: Noob Hallmarks
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by KC0UZA on May 14, 2009
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Make that 14 out of 25. I can't count either since my shoes are on.
73
Mike
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 14, 2009
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"How often do I think a station is in Norway, London or Japan due to the ridiculous pratice of using PLACES as phonetics"
After a while, you'll learn all of the prefixes from countries and won't be so easily confused. With more experience, you be able to differentiate between someone saying my location or my QTH is London and someone using L for London as part of their call. A dead give away is when the prefix doesn't belong to England.
When my call was AE7G, no Spanish speaking station ever asked me if I was in Argentina, Equador, Siette, or Guatamala when I used them as phoentics.
When my call was NY1I, no one ever asked me if I was in Italy or India when I used that for I.
Come to think of it, no one ever asked if it was November when I used that for N!
No one every asked if I drank whiskey when my call was Whiskey Bravo 1 Alpha United Whiskey.
Bob
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 14, 2009
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Noob dead give-a-way, using a smiley face instead of HI to indicate humor.
:-)
73s
Bob
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by KB3HJK on May 14, 2009
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In DX under certain conditions, Kilo and Juliet are much better replaced with Kilowatt and Japan. I have experienced this countless times. I'll start with Juliet, and very often only get through with Japan. Use what works and don't get overly pedantic.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6HPX on May 14, 2009
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I used it many times but found once or twice having to change a letter as when I was in Manila I worked a Korean station and he didnt understand the word Hotel, I had to try other words like Hawaii. It took a friend who was Malaysian and spoke the language to tell him Hotel.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KC8ZEV on May 14, 2009
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Are we slamming noobs or bitching about creative phonetics?? I have lost track.
Everybody was a noob once...............some from the 1800's, some from the 1900's, some from the 2000's. Cut the noobs some slack, your "Elmer" did for you, why not extend at least some for them.
When the FCC starts revoking licenses for improper phonetics, then I guess it becomes a real problem.
Otherwise, use what works to make the contact, especially DX. I often listen to the DX station's choice of phonetics not because it is right or wrong, but because these are words he/she are using and familiar with. That can make or break the contact.
See you in Dayton!
73
KC8ZEV
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KX5JT on May 14, 2009
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Bob said:
Noob dead give-a-way, using a smiley face instead of HI to indicate humor.
:-)
73s
Bob
****************
Another pet peeve of mine... 73s... it should just be 73 since it means "best regards" 73s means "best regardss" (noob!!!)
:-) errr hi hi
John KX5JT
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WMCO on May 14, 2009
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OMG, go get a life.
If that is all that is wrong with ham radio these days it would be great. I rather hear someone using a mixture of made up phonics then listen to noise, interference or the description of the last gall bladder operation and dripping nose on 80. Go out and make contacts, sitting around and complaining on the internet about stuff like this results in the bands being empty and the quality of QSOs going into the toilet.
J.C.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KX5JT on May 14, 2009
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I'll qso with anyone that has a license and behaves well. If they use creative phonetics or 73s, that doesn't stop me from continuing the QSO. It's just a pet peeve of mine, I notice it. That's all. I think it's much more impressive and proper to use the ITU phonetics.
Some people make the point that getting on the air is the most important thing. I agree whole heartedly. Also, operating with good ethics. If someone I'm in a QSO with crosses the line with bad behavior, cursing or otherwise just being repulsive, that is when I thank them very much for the QSO and say goodbye.
73, John KX5JT
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by N6NKN on May 14, 2009
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Isn't it ironic that Fonetics is spelled with a "PH"
November 6 November Kilowatt November
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by W0FM on May 14, 2009
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And why is it that only on 6 meters, a grid square is almost "automatically" Echo Mary 48 or Echo Nancy 57? Usually stated by a guy who then gives his call using Mike or November correctly.
Still can't figure out that 6M Mary and Nancy duo.
73,
Terry, WŘFM
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by AB7E on May 14, 2009
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This "article" is simply a rant and doesn't belong here in the first place (at best it should have been a "Speakout"), but on top of that it represents bad operating practice.
Yes, it is highly desirable to refrain from cute, uncommon phonetics if you're engaged in anything other than a pretty casual QSO. They are just confusing and more often than not just make you sound silly.
But the idea that one set of "official" phonetics is universally optimum is just plain wrong. I work mostly DX and contests, and many of the words in KX5JT's list are really poor for intelligibility. They simply are not very readable in situations with QRN, QSB, or QRM.
Single syllable words are generally less intelligible than two syllable words.
Other phonetics were badly chosen in the first place because they contain a high percentage of "mushy" sounds ... soft consonants and short vowels ... and don't terminate with a crisp sound. Sierra is common enough that it works most of the time, but Santiago has much more punch. Golf is a horrible, horrible phonetic.
Not everyone's speech patterns are equivalent. I typically use Alpha for my callsign, but it is often mistaken for Papa. I guess I pronounce the "ph" hard enough that it "pops", and since the rest of the word isn't very crisp in the first place (short vowels, soft consonants) it is easily mistaken. If the guy on the other end has any trouble with my callsign, I immediately switch to "America". It's longer, but more intelligible.
Many of the phonetics on the list seem common to stateside hams, or those who regularly speak English, but they are not readily recognizable to hams who speak English as a second or third language. It's arrogant and counterproductive to assume everyone has the same recognition synopses as you do. I mean, just take a look at some of those phonetics ... they are poor examples of everyday speech even in the U.S. I'm not trying to propose a different "official list", but these are examples of more recognizable phonetics:
Canada instead of Charlie
Germany instead of Golf
Japan instead of Juliet
Mexico instead of Mike
Portugal (or even Peter) instead of Papa
Radio instead of Romeo
United instead of Uniform
Zebra instead of Zulu
All of those are commonly used instead of the official phonetics ... with good reason.
A final point. No single phonetic is going to do the job every time, and the idiots who insist on saying the same phonetic over and over again while the DX keeps asking for repeats earn the scorn of everyone on frequency. In the recent CQ WPX SSB contest I heard a DX station trying to get a particular stateside station's callsign. He had easily copied all of the letters the first time except one ... the letter "g". The stateside station kept using the phonetic "Golf" without ever changing it, and after five requests for repeat the DX station gave up.
I'm hoping that all of you overly regimented types do your anal best to make KX5JT happy ... it gives the rest of us a nice advantage on the air.
Dave AB7E
p.s. I personally don't understand the complaints about "kilowatt". It's an extremely common word and it terminates "kilo" with a nice crisp consonant. "Kilo" is shorter and almost always gets the job done, but I don't get why "kilowatt" would confuse anyone as being two words. When's the last time you heard anyone use the word "watt" as a standalone phonetic? Then again, that probably illustrates my point that it is stupid to try to shoehorn everyone into using just one set of phonetics ... not everyone has the same recognition reflexes.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KG6MZS on May 14, 2009
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K8MMG wrote:
>>>I couldn't disagree more. When working DX: I have found that if I use standard phonetics, the Kilo and the Golf are almost always lost to the other station. However, if I use Kilowatt and Germany instead, no problems.
I will continue using what works for me.<<<
While I always start with the standard phonetics, if the DX comes back to me for my prefix, for instance, I usually say:
"Kilo Golf Six! Kilowatt Germany Six!"
That does seem to help because, more often then not, they will come back:
"OK, Kilowatt Germany Six Mike Zulu Sierra, thank you..."
Similarly if they have trouble with the suffix I will say:
"Mike Zulu Sierra! Mexico Zanzibar Santiago!
And they usually come back and repeat the latter phonetics.
It really helps to exaggerate the enunciation too, with ultra crisp consonants.
This is from a guy who has a short novel for a call. :-)
73 de Eric, KG6MZS
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KG6MZS on May 14, 2009
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So how many people actually use the approved IARU pronunciation:
"Shar lee"
???
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Proper Phonetics!
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by WB9NJB on May 14, 2009
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If you are passing traffic or participating in a net, fine. Otherwise, go pound sand. There has to be some fun left in this hobby populated by humorless old farts.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by WW5AA on May 14, 2009
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.....and sometimes we forget about reasons in the past for doing things that may sound dumb now. During the Graf Zeppelin days, it was decided that in order for American and Germans involved in landings to not mis-understand, "nine" would be substituted by "niner". The problem was that the German word for "NO" is "NEIN". I use niner because that was in use while I was an Air Force pilot and I have to disagree with who ever said that ATC does not use niner, I hear it all the time on Air Band HF.
73 de Lindy
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by W8JII on May 14, 2009
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Still have trouble trying not to use the old---
A-able, B- baker, C-charlie, D-dog, E-easy... :-)
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K4JC on May 14, 2009
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"Your first rig had a digital frequency display"
Mine did...but it was made out of Nixie tubes!
About 50% of the time when working DX, the phonetics "Juliet Charlie" don't get through. But "Japan Canada" usually does, and so far no one has asked if I was in either of those places!
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W4VR on May 14, 2009
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I try to abide by the proper phonetics, however sometimes some DX stations simply don't understand the proper phonetics. Let me give you an example. I use Whiskey four Victor Romeo; perhaps it's my northern Maine accent but most people in DX land don't understand "Romeo"...I have to use "Radio" to be understood.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by NY7Q on May 14, 2009
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What a laugh.......I jerked some tails here....haaaaa haaaaa haaaaa
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Proper Phonetics!
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by G0GQK on May 14, 2009
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Its strange isn't it, K8MMG has the same problem with Kilo and Golf as me, and this happened in the good old days of 1988. I often wondered why these two simple words got lost in the ether,as did Golf Quebec Kilowatt, so I changed to Golf Queen King, and taters to the lot of 'em !
Mel G0GQK
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by AB7E on May 14, 2009
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KX5JT: "How often do I think a station is in Norway, London or Japan due to the ridiculous practice of using PLACES as phonetics.... I know I'm not the only one! "
If you aren't the only one, you are certainly one of the very few. You have a very poor sense of pace and sequence in an exchange if you get confused on that.
Besides, how many times when someone sends their callsign with Charlie, Mike, Oscar, Romeo, or Victor do you think they're telling you their name? Places as phonetics make way more sense than names of people. The idea is to facilitate communication, and while the average ham in Japan certainly has heard of London, they might not know a single person named Oscar.
But to better illustrate the myopic and close-minded nature of your rant, I'd like to point out that India, Lima, and Quebec are indeed place names. Or didn't you know that?
Dave AB7E
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N4KC on May 14, 2009
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Okay, okay. I'm no longer "Kilowatt Charlie!" That's even though--in 35 years with this call--nobody has EVER interpreted that as "KWC."
Like most right-thinking individuals, I start with the standard phonetics because they often work best. Then, in a pinch and to get the QSO, I opt for "Kentucky Canada," which usually gets it done.
But it is surprising how often "En Four Kay Cee" does the trick.
Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
www.donkeith.com
Follow don_keith on Twitter
www.n4kc.blogspot.com
(An open blog about rapid technological change and its
effect on society, media and amateur radio)
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by N5ACK on May 14, 2009
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I only use proper phonetics, but I'm not going to get ticked off when someone doesn't. Sometimes when I hear someone with an accent who is not using it, I have to spend a lot of time figuring out what the call is.
I have some that munge mine up. They think it's Oscar Charlie Kilo, instead of Alfa Charlie Kilo. I get that mistake at least once a week.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WI7B on May 14, 2009
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"It's a pet peeve of mine. You will all do what you will, but I know it is much more impressive and I consider it to be GOOD OPERATING PRATICE(sic) to use the ITU phonetic alphabet."
Some hams pet peeve and good operaitn practice not to mis-spell simple words on eHam.
My pet peeve is over-righteous hams on-the-air. I find humility on-the-air much more impressive.
73,
---* Ken
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by W0AAA on May 14, 2009
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Another waste of bandwidth??? I sure don't think so. The topic was just posted today and has almost 80 replies already showing many different opinions. I like that! To me, it comes down to different personality types expressing their thoughts. Some hams are more structured and follow the rules to a "T" and some like to fudge on them abit. No big deal as long as it isn't hurting anyone. I guess I have gone both ways. It depends totally on the situation. For example, when I was trying to send my old callsign thru the P5/4L4FN pileup and the suffix was November November November and that wasn't going anywhere but when I tried Norway Norway Norway and it cut right thru...I guess I bent the rules...I'm not sending the QSL back. ;) When I had the suffix Alpha Alpha Delta for 30 years, that didn't cut through the QRM like America America Denmark. I'm gonna use what works for me. WŘAAA (ps this problem doesn't exist in CW!) ;)))
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6HPX on May 14, 2009
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I don't believe anyone was noobing anyone here on any comment but I liked the comments that there is occassion when you need to change certain words, as not all countries will understand the ITU words. And its often times a frustration trying to pass the word to a international station to give the info passed. For example in my case I used the words Hotel 3 times and the person didnt understand Hotel,so I changed it to Hawaii and the person still had trouble I had a friend in Australia who sent the word to him in his language she was in VK5 and he finally understood.
There are times when you have no choice.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA8MEA on May 14, 2009
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If ya'll prefer to trim FOXTROT down to....FOX....
....would it be OK to single-syllable CHARLIE down to....
....CHUCK?????
73, Bill
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by OLLIEOXEN27 on May 14, 2009
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From reading some of these posts it looks like civil war is not too far off.
Why do the left and the right believe they can change one anothers' minds by insulting and intimidating each other? And if you could change people's minds that way would you want such a follower who can be so easily bullied? And why should anyone listen to such nasty people? Seems like it's the ONE thing the left and the right have in common - nastiness. Logic would dictate being nice to people might be more persuasive. I think what this country lacks on the left and the right are people with dignity and integrity. Too much hate going around.
Food for thought.
Oli
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA8MEA on May 14, 2009
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Besides, how many times when someone sends their callsign with Charlie, Mike, Oscar, Romeo, or Victor do you think they're telling you their name?
----------------------------------------------------
Good response Dave!
Or how about the number of people who got confused today thinking it was....NOVEMBER???
How many thought a famous dance craze was being reborn by hearing FOXTROT or TANGO????
How many thought reservations were being made over the air thanks to....HOTEL???
Or did you think one of your kids was calling you today via ham radio when you heard....PAPA?????
73, Bill - WA8MEA
http://HamRadioFun.com
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KF4HR on May 14, 2009
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"You will all do what you will..."
Yep.
Be sure to pet your pet peeve. It'll be around awhile.
KF4 Ham Radio
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N7DCR on May 14, 2009
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This phonetic index is proper and should be known by all amateur ops.In DX pileups,I could see some improvising.Other than that, who gives a "Romeo Alpha"?....73.N7DCR..ex WB6TPF
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N7DCR on May 14, 2009
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This phonetic index is proper and should be known by all amateur ops.In DX pileups,I could see some improvising.Other than that, who gives a "Romeo Alpha"?....73.N7DCR..ex WB6TPF
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WB2WIK on May 14, 2009
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Hey de hey, hi de ho
Can you hear my radio?
Fi, fi, fo, fum
Loud and clear, with a little hum.
;-)
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W5NET on May 14, 2009
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K8MMG wrote > "I couldn't disagree more. When working DX: I have found that if I use standard phonetics, the Kilo and the Golf are almost always lost to the other station. However, if I use Kilowatt and Germany instead, no problems."
Two problems with your method. First, when using "Germany" in noisy or weak signal conditions, many could easily and mistakenly think you're actually in that country, especially if they're expecting phonetics and not a country to be mentioned in the exchange.
Second, since "Germany" is only the English language name for that country (Germans use Deutschland, Italians use La Germania, French use L'Allemagne, Spanish use Alemania, and so on), those speaking another language may have no familiarity with the word "Germany" or that it even starts with the letter "G."
By the way, the same is true with words like "November" (Russians use [something that starts with a "H" this web page won't display properly]), Kilowatt (Italians use Chilowatt), and so on.
Anyway, the ITU phonetics were created exactly to reduce the types of ambiguities language differences can so easily introduce into a QSO.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K8MMG on May 14, 2009
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Do you work much DX? I've had QSOs with GERMANS who copied my Kilowatt Eight Mike Mike Germany just fine. There is really no argument here. Non-standard works for me for DX, every time. Standard fails for me for DX, every time. BTW, English is the "universal language" throughout the world.
Most people are going to understand the English versions of words. If I work stateside stations, I'll use the standard phonetics, otherwise, NO WAY!
73,
Brandon
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K8MMG on May 14, 2009
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W5NET,
Thank you for your service. Once upon a time, I too was stationed in Germany (Giebelstadt Army Airfield 2001-2002).
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Proper Phonetics!
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by N6EY on May 14, 2009
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Phonetics? No one has EVER had to use phonetics on CW!
73,
Jason N6EY
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by AB7E on May 14, 2009
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W5NET: "Anyway, the ITU phonetics were created exactly to reduce the types of ambiguities language differences can so easily introduce into a QSO."
Yep, they were ... they just do a poor job of it. "Golf" and "uniform" are far from being crisp and unambiguous, and you'd know that if you spent much time digging callsigns out of the mud. Check out the callsigns of the folks who preach blind adherence to the ITU phonetics. See how many even show up in the SCP listing ... not many.
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by N9TAX on May 14, 2009
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Fine business I use ITU only. Mainly because I work MARS and it is a requirement. I dont have anything against some variations of phonetics but boy do I hate being called Nancy 9 we should strike that one.
Joe N9TAX
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by N2UM on May 14, 2009
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Years ago there was a fellow in Hawaii that used the phonetics "Bloomin' Zipper Flipper". Sunday afternoon of a DX contest he would only answer funny phonetics. It did break the monotony of a long contest. Sometimes I'd just listen for a few minutes just to hear the creations. I'm glad he was there.
EX: KB2 No Underwear
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N2EY on May 14, 2009
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To WB2WIK:
Chowpy chowpit
Chow chow chi chow,
Something's wrong
With my radiow....
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Proper Phonetics!
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by W4WSW on May 14, 2009
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Well in my case if I say Wisky four Wisky Sierra Wisky 90% of the cases they understand zulu insted ot sierra, so I use to sa Wisky four West South West... It's to hard..?
People have few options,
#1 Tell the other station "I Don't want to talk to you because you'r not using the proper phonetics"
#2 Try to tech the other station..."Good luck"
#3 Get over it...
If you can figure out betwing what "Wisky" or "Washington" "Alpha" or "America" mean..! Oh well you have serios problems....
Any way guys just enjoy the hobby, remember "HOBBY"
73's to all
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RE: Nag Nag Nag
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by K0OD on May 14, 2009
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Anyone remember the dumbest phonetic of all time, Tare?
Do you know what a Tare is? Look it up...Hilarious!
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RE: Nag Nag Nag
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by N3OX on May 14, 2009
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"This "article" is simply a rant and doesn't belong here in the first place"
Most of cable news is based on a rant and it seems to be doing OK :-) <- uhoh total n00b
- eNthRoX
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RE: Nag Nag Nag
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by N4MJG on May 14, 2009
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I agree with others ! i use it everyday when i check net ever morning.
73
Jackie
KG4ORX
SKYPE NAME:KG4ORX
Ham Radio Since Aug 20001
General Lic. Since March 17,2007
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K9KJM on May 15, 2009
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There was just a long thread on this very subject on one of the ham sites.
Many experienced hams who KNOW how these things work agree that the ITU alphabet does NOT always work the best.
I have also found that to be true.
Giving my own call to a DX station under difficult conditions with the ITU "Kilo Nine Kilo Juliet Mike"
Has resulted in MANY "Repeat" "Repeat"
When I give it as: Kilo Nine Kilo JAPAN MEXICO I am understood first time, Every time!
Many foreign stations do NOT interpret the ITU words well at all.
Bottom line is that it IS nice to use the ITU alphabet in the USA, And even for DX when conditions are good, But DO NOT be afraid to deviate with whatever works when conditions are rough.
I also agree that it is best not to get in the habit of using "goofy" phonetics "Kangaroo Jumping Marathon" etc in my case would be a poor choice.....
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA3SKN on May 15, 2009
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I normally use the ITU ones for weak DX contacts, and the "cute" ones for strong stateside ones. Now the strong DX and weak stateside ones are up in the air... whatever works!
And this assumes the DX station knows English, as my foreign language skills are Ziltch! (I'm an American!)
Interestingly however, the ITU has changed it's phonetics about 5 times over the years.
Luckily I do still know the difference between a "dit" and a "dah", but I do not claim to be a "skilled" CW operator!
73s.
-Mike
WA3"Straight Key Night"
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KA3NRX on May 15, 2009
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While I always start with the standard phonetics, if the DX comes back to me for my prefix, for instance, I usually say:
"Kilo Golf Six! Kilowatt Germany Six!"
REPLY: Yep, that's how I do it too starting with-(KILO ALPHA 3 NOVEMBER ROMEO X-RAY)...and then to shorten the call sign up -- (Kilo Alpha 3 Nancy Rodgr X-ray)-- or (K A 3 Norway Rodger X-ray)...but always start out with the standard, especially when in a pile up...
This subject raises a very interesting point. Here's a situation I recall from several years ago on 2O meters. I was in a pile for a Russian station (or some DX in Europe), and one of the callers who's call had B-W in it, instead of calling with "BRAVO WISKEY," used the words "BLACK WHITE" while calling. The DX Station replied by saying "something something, black white...I don't know what that is, QRZ?" and moved on in the pile up. The caller basically screwed himself out of working some dx becuase he didn't use the proper phonetics. Tuff Noogies. Hopefully that guy will know better now. Cutesy phonetics are ok (mine are "No Radio X-pert"), and so are alternative words commonly used as phonetics (Like Abel, America, Denmark, Norway, Kilowatt & India, etc.) but I myself would never use those when calling initially to establish a qso. The standard phonetics should be adhered to, at least from the beginning. You may be screwing yourself out of a good (DX) qso, if you don't!
Vince P
KA3NRX
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6HPX on May 15, 2009
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Use CW.... end of problem!
triedd the morse with the guy but like here in USA he might have been one who didnt want to learn it and still didnt understand it..so if it wasnt for vk5 I would have been in the dark..but never gave up the ship...
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6HPX on May 15, 2009
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Quick How many H words can you think of when the person your sending to don't understand Hotel..in my side of the world many contacts were asian and many are learning english by operating on the air. So give a little time when your talking to one who dont understand the ITU's..
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Proper Phonetics!
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by W8BS on May 15, 2009
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I like my made up when to relieve stress!!
Whiskey Eight Bull Sh**
:-)
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by G8UBJ on May 15, 2009
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Hotel is an interesting one. If pronounced correctly in the UK (received pronunciation) Hotel has a silent H
Luckily only auntie Beeb use received pronunciation...
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Proper Phonetics!
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by VE3OIJ on May 15, 2009
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I absolutely concur with this article.
First off, as a person whose hearing is not the best, mangled phonetics seriously increase the chance that I won't be able to log your QSO. I'm good at picking out the standard phonetics (even the Able Baker Charlie alphabet) but the made-up phonetics complete with QRN, QRM, QSB and local accents translates to a failed QSO.
Secondly, even if I can hear you, some made-up phonetics just don't work well. "Kilowatt" means KW to me, not K. I have burned so many calls instinctively writing KW when the station uses "kilowatt".
Good operating procedure requires using the proper phonetics. Making up joke phonetics may be funny, once in a while, but at the end of the day, if you do it, you're using poor operating procedure. It doesn't matter if most of your contacts "get it" or not. It's poor procedure and it sets a bad example for new operators coming into the hobby.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K9FON on May 15, 2009
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I know when I was in BCT in the ARMY they had us spell out numbers like 2 is "TOO" 3 is "tree" 4 is "FOWER" 5 is "FIFE" and 9 is "NINER". It makes it easier for the guy on the RX end to decipher better.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KD6NIG on May 15, 2009
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I was tuning around the bands last night and stumbled across a few guys who obviously had a few sips of the drink, and they were making nice rude noises into the mic on occasion, and every once in a while the language used crossed over into the salty realm.
But, I guess since they used proper phonetics, they are Grade A ham radio operators! (They did, actually.)
I learn something new every day. :)
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Pass The Popcorn, Please!!
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by KG6WLS on May 15, 2009
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>Nag Nag Nag Reply
by K7LA on May 14, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
Sir,
Would you care for a little cheese with that whine?<
:: How about some popcorn? This could go on forever!
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W9TTW on May 15, 2009
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Make it a drinking game Whiskey Nine Tequila Tequila Whiskey. Ha!!! If we could all just relax and focus on the important things. All you old guys won't be around forever. You need to pass along the information in your brains and be a good elmer. Radio is a Radio transistors or tubes it all does the same thing. Can't we all just get along Man!!!!
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Proper Phonetics!
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by N7YP on May 15, 2009
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IS THIS NOT WHAT WE ALL SIGNED UP FOR,THE STANDARD PHONETICS SIMPLIFYS THE WHOLE PROCESS OF OPERATOR CALLSIGN.IT IS RARE FOR DX TO TAKE OFF ON CUTESY IDING CREATING SENSELESS CONFUSION,THOSE THAT DO THIS ONLY HAS ONE TIME TO SHIP OFF A QSL WITH $$$ INSIDE TO FIND HE HAS SENT TO WRONG OPERATOR.STOP JUNKY PRACTICE.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K3RMX on May 15, 2009
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I disagree, especially if band conditions are good. Use whatever works. I had a contact 25+ years ago from which I still remember the call: Sweet Mary's Three Dirty Yellow Socks (SM3DYS).
Steve, k3rmx
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by AD7C on May 15, 2009
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I stick to the ITU but I'll use whatever I can to help make the contact.
The only time it ever bothers me is when I get corrected. When I use "Sierra" in my call and I get the reply back as "Sugar" and then told not "Sierra" but "Sugar" I just roll me eyes, say thanks, and move on.
Maybe they think I like sugar in my call?
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by G3LBS on May 15, 2009
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With the level of speech compression applied by some operators, it might be better if they spoke in tongues.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K0AU on May 15, 2009
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Check out the contemporary ITU phonetics. They have different number words than ICAO and the FAA.
http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap14.htm
Letter to be transmitted Code word to be used Spoken as **
0 Nadazero NAH-DAH-ZAY-ROH
1 Unaone OO-NAH-WUN
2 Bissotwo BEES-SOH-TOO
3 Terrathree TAY-RAH-TREE
4 Kartefour KAR-TAY-FOWER
5 Pantafive PAN-TAH-FIVE
6 Soxisix SOK-SEE-SIX
7 Setteseven SAY-TAY-SEVEN
8 Oktoeight OK-TOH-AIT
9 Novenine NO-VAY-NINER
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Proper Phonetics!
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by WE4VB on May 15, 2009
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Old call sign was way to long-winded...
Whiskey Victor Eight Hotel Alpha Mike
So it became - West Virginia Ate HAM!!!
73,
Rick
WE4VB
"We for Virginia Beach"
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KG6MZS on May 15, 2009
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I love this thread. What a great hobby that we can yack about this stuff.
Here are the coolest (IMO) phonetics:
Sierra
Whiskey
Foxtrot
Tango
Delta
Zulu
Bravo
Here are the lamest:
Juliet
Hotel
Lima
Papa
and the worst:
Golf
I've always thought "Whiskey Six Sierra Fox" would be the coolest sounding call ever. Too bad a club has it.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KA5ROW on May 15, 2009
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It just irritates me to death to hear someone not using proper phonetics.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WB2WIK on May 15, 2009
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Crazy stuff.
73 from
Wiley Bonkers 2 Withering Iconoclastic Kangaroos
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W4KVW on May 15, 2009
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VULGAR EXPRESSIONS 7 KING FREAKING MORON just North of the border! Do NOT take my word for it just listen to him!
W4KVW
}:>)
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W9GMT on May 15, 2009
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What happened to the old design principle that form follows function. The ITU phonetics were originally designed to enhance communications reliability. Perhaps it is time to do a reasonable study to determine whether there are alternatives that should be used to replace old characters that confuse rather than elucidate.
There is also a defense of those who use nonstandard phonetics that serve as pneumonic. Cognitive psychologists and learning specialists have advocated such devices for years, not because they are cute, but because they work!
Deviation from the standard, I would hope, would be done with consideration for what works, not cuteness or just resistance to change.
Shift Happens!
David, Whisky Niner Golf Mike Tango (Greenwich Mean Time)
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by OLLIEOXEN27 on May 15, 2009
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Phonetics just don't work as well in CW as in voice. In fact it takes me a lot longer to complete a qso using phonetics in CW. I think I'll just go back to using regular letters and numbers.
oli
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 15, 2009
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Oooh Noooooo!
Science and logic in the face of dogma?!
Scientific principles in ham radio!?
We must stick with "I don't like what you do. So, you should not do it!""If you do something I don't like, you are a BAD operator!"
Best from Hot Tucson
Bob
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WL7BPY on May 16, 2009
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I must agree with the author. Use the phonics the way they are written and ment to be used. I know and see some here with their reply, that goes right out the window. I think it is because you may have gotten used to the " Easy" way and thats a comfort zone. I must say, that if you are on with friends, the favorite band you all are on every nite, maybe thats ok, they all know you and your call but for regular radio use,, no. I to have heard some form of trickery on the call signs and I instantly have to think, " What was it. Whats the call? ( Zangermarsh 7 tumbleweed crisco bleech ) ? !
But when I hear the call the way it is ment to be given, it is understood. I can't recall not being able to clearly understand it in that form. I always give my call the proper way, even when I am on with my friends. But it is a free world and everyone has the right to choose how to conduct themselves on and off from the radio.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K0PYB on May 16, 2009
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I agree John, 100%! Exotic or cutsie phonetics lend to confusion and errors.
Proper Phonetics used in radio operations simply makes sense! Having flown several years (military, USAF), I understand the importance of quick and positive information transmission. I realize amateur radio is not the military, however, some procedures are universal in nature. Learning the phonetics and using them is not rocket science and they ensure the guy on the other end copies information correctly. They guarantee that station gets your: call sign, handle, QTH, etc. (just might net you that new country and get you the QSL card you want/need). Those factors by themselves should certainly underscore the value of using the phonetics system that has been globally agreed to.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KM6CQ on May 16, 2009
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Just a simple question here. I know a lot of us use phonetics as needed. However, does this satisfy the FCC requirement for station ID and if so then why? I don't ever remember reading anywhere in part 97 that phonetics are acceptable for station ID.
Thanks, Dan KM6CQ
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by IX4NT on May 16, 2009
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In joint operations with US military, all verbal communications is carried out in plain English and using the US Uniform Military Phonetic Alphabet (NATO/ITU). Verbal commands must be understood quickly and acted upon. There is no time to interpret phonemes other than those that are EXPECTED. Too many of us, worldwide, know and rely on ths UPA for any of us to substitute childish words for the ones that will be understood easily. Slip in a 'Kilowatt' and a seasoned radio operator will begin to question what followed the letter 'K'.
The US Emergency Response Framework requires the use of 'plain language' by public safety agencies and other first responders. Custom jargon doesn't fly during multi-jurisdictional responses.
And what's so difficult with adhering to standards?
As for FCC rules about IDing a station phonetically? For voice transmission the station must identify using it's assigned call sign. There is no prohibition against using phonetics as long as the phonetics are not designed to mislead a listener. Specific authority to use phonetics is not required in the absence of a rule prohibiting phonetics.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KX5JT on May 16, 2009
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Thanks for all the responses for or against. Of course when I submitted my article I knew there would be plenty of detractors and supporters.
I still stand by my belief that using proper phonetics is good operating pratice. I never called anyone a bad operator however. This is about improving ourselves, not tearing down people. I suppose it is okay to apply whatever pet phonetics if that's what you want to do with your friends on a clear frequency who know you well. When operating in rough conditions or with DX, I think using the proper phonetics at least initially works best. If you feel aren't getting a callsign or whatever across, supplement if you want but try the proper phonetics first. For me, I'll continue to observe the proper phonetics whenever and wherever possible because it works well and is a standard which has been proven. It is used by military, air traffic and emergency comms for a reason.
BTW, I had submitted this article a couple weeks ago and I had no idea the very same topic was going to be discussed in the June QST issue. Go figure!
Thanks for all the replies and discussions and please try to have a great time with radio!
73 and God Bless
John, KX5JT
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K0OD on May 16, 2009
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"The US Emergency Response Framework requires the use of 'plain language' by public safety agencies and other first responders. Custom jargon doesn't fly during multi-jurisdictional responses."
yes, 10-10 codes are out. When in doubt use plain language. Good advice for hamming too.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by W7XU on May 16, 2009
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I've operated from the DX side a number of times, and while I generally support the use of standard phonetics, it's not a big deal to me if someone uses "Japan" for "J", or "United" instead of "Uniform." Call me with "World Wide 5 Super Happy Friends" or some such nonsense, however, and I'll likely ignore you.
On the other hand, one common nonstandard phonetic that I have difficulty with is "Canada" for "C." If it's a pile-up and I hear "Canada," more often than not I will start to log it as a "K" instead of a "C," since I associate the hard C or K sound with "Kilo" and "K."
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA8MEA on May 17, 2009
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Anyone remember the movie; "Hot Shots"? (A parody of "Top Gun".)
Have you ever listened to the hilarious phonetics used by the military in that movie???
73, Bill - WA8MEA
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by 5R8GQ on May 17, 2009
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by WB9NJB:
"If you are passing traffic or participating in a net, fine. Otherwise, go pound sand. There has to be some fun left in this hobby populated by humorless old farts."
I agree. Use what works for you. If it doesn't work for the other guy, that's HIS problem.
I find "Kilowatt" and "Germany" get understood far, far, better than "Kilo" and Golf". "Golf" is especially useless, right behind "Zulu".
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KG6MZS on May 17, 2009
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As I said before, I would never stubbornly refuse to use alternate phonetics when the DX doesn't copy me with the standardized phonetics, but I do think it is incumbent on every good operator to know the ITU phonetics so thoroughly that they can be recalled in one's sleep.
No kidding, I heard a green operator on an emergency net go:
"Kilo... uh....uh... *Underwear*..."
73 de Eric, KG6MZS
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N0YAI on May 17, 2009
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Maybe it ain't so black and white.
I haven't seen anyone complain about ZED. I believe it's a throwback, but still... It has to be, by far, the most common non-standard phonetic in use.
Maybe it depends on the cutsieness factor whether or not some folks can stomach it. A regular here on a 75 meter net has the suffix GCB and is known as 'Good Cold Beer' and EVERYONE seems to hear that just fine and can repeat his call instantly. Great phonetic! (In my opinion anyway.)
Are these forums kinda like the old timers against the newbs? Or vice-versa? Just curious. Some of the posts do make me laugh out loud though.
73
Duane
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K4DPK on May 17, 2009
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The use of phonetics is the least of our problems.
I hear at least one (most often, more) person each week operating in a band segment for which he has no license privileges.
If these guys are going to operate where and how they want, you'll have a tough time getting them to use "proper phonetics".
73
Phil C. Sr.
K4DPK
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N7YA on May 17, 2009
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I will use whatever gets through.
I have always used the ITU phonetics, but if you have spent any time DXing in rough conditions, then you know that they dont always cut through. Some words just cut better. Norway cuts better than November...Yokohama cuts WAY better than Yankee (which always gets confused with Whiskey without fail). I dont have a kilowatt or a beam, and when i use alternate phonetics, i make it through.
If you only ragchew, then you might have an argument, but ive been a DXer and contester for 25 years, i know what i need to do...considering my station and my vocal tone...in order to log the DX. Ive never had a problem. You sound like a very by-the-book, thourough type of guy. But sorry, i have to disagree with you on this one.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KV7M on May 17, 2009
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i agree that the standard phonetic alphabet is the way to go for 99% of contacts and i suppose i actually qualify as a "newbie"(first licensed in 2000,extra ticket in 2002).I am a third generation ham.My dad, KV7L made it clear to me that there are differences between c.b. and amateur radio some of them are drastic some not.but what i got from him in many other ways,especially through example-1)operate a station that is beyond reproach.2)be open minded and always ready(even eager!)to learn new things.3)through constructive criticism we learn.
having said that i'll open myself to criticism by offering that i say "kilowatt victor seven mike".i say it that way because i agree with previous post that kilo is very often lost and also because thats how i've heard my dad say it. my uncle KV7E also says kilowatt.its rare that i have to use an alternate and it is almost always for dx and for the "mike" .and yes i use "mexico" as my alternate.really its most often under poor conditions and working japanese operators (which i love to qso with so-at the risk of offense.none is intended).i let others operate how they will-similarly to your statement.my pet peev is when maliscious and willfull interference is transmitted in a manner that intentionally disrupts communications in progress by otherwise licensed and mature individuals.my opinion is that these are unlicensed people who stole a ham transceiver and lack many of the skills that our hobby celebrates through its protocol and practice-but thats another subject entirely.best regards and see you on h.f. kv7m
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KV7M on May 17, 2009
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EXACTLY!i could not have said it better myself
seems to be alot of discrimination on this and the newham vs. old ham bit....cmon people we're all on the same side! we are all amateur radio operators,it should be a grounds for celebration not arbitration.
best regards,kv7m
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W9JAB on May 18, 2009
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How's the weather up on that "HIGH HORSE"?
Whiskey Nine Joe Alpha Bravo.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W2RI on May 18, 2009
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Do you actually work DX ?
If you do, you will find that, particularly with non-native English speakers, it is sometimes necessary to use a variety of phonetic alternatives.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by W5DQ on May 18, 2009
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Well I for one agree with you. I have heard some phonetics that required I actually stop to think about the phonetic being used to get the proper 'letter' it was implying.
Having said that, I have found times when a slight deviatation from the standard phonetic list increases my success of replies.
My old call (up till Feb 2009) was KI6LO. I usually used 'KILO INDIA SIX LIMA OSCAR' but many times found that 'KILO ITALY SIX LONDON ONTARIO' seemed to exhibit a better response rate, so I used it also.
W5DQ, my new call has somewhat of the same issues. Following the standard phonetics it would be 'WHISKEY FIVE DELTA QUEBEC' but I am finding that using the phonetics of 'WHISKEY FIVE DAIRY QUEEN' is giving a larger success rate for replies, especially from DX stations. Recently, in one pileup, I called several times using 'WHISKEY FIVE DELTA QUEBEC' and no response to which I followed by a single call of 'WHISKEY FIVE DAIRY QUEEN' and that got picked up immediately. Maybe it is just timing but it has happened enough times so far to make one ask 'Why?'.
So from my personal experience there are times when a deviation away from the standard list is warranted. However some of this crazy lingo that I hear almost is remeniscent of 'handles' from the 70's CB craze.
Gene W5DQ
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6AJR on May 18, 2009
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Another problem arrises. I first learned to use phonetic alphabets in the boy scouts. I then used a different version in the military. I then got a job as a radio dispatcher and use yet a different phonetic alphabet for the state of California , and the I have the set I use for ham radio, ( a noob here too, did not get my first ham license till 1978) snd somewhere inther I was also on the good ole CB radio too.
So I always use phonetics, I just never know which one is going to come out.
not all phonetic alphabets are the same.
Norway six alpha juliet romeo
november six america japan russia
norway six able john radio
november six All Junk Radio
norway six all japaneese rigs.
N6AJR
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6AJR on May 18, 2009
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Another problem arrises. I first learned to use phonetic alphabets in the boy scouts. I then used a different version in the military. I then got a job as a radio dispatcher and use yet a different phonetic alphabet for the state of California , and the I have the set I use for ham radio, ( a noob here too, did not get my first ham license till 1978) snd somewhere inther I was also on the good ole CB radio too.
So I always use phonetics, I just never know which one is going to come out.
not all phonetic alphabets are the same.
Norway six alpha juliet romeo
november six america japan russia
norway six able john radio
november six All Junk Radio
norway six all japaneese rigs.
N6AJR
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6AJR on May 18, 2009
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Another problem arrises. I first learned to use phonetic alphabets in the boy scouts. I then used a different version in the military. I then got a job as a radio dispatcher and use yet a different phonetic alphabet for the state of California , and the I have the set I use for ham radio, ( a noob here too, did not get my first ham license till 1978) snd somewhere inther I was also on the good ole CB radio too.
So I always use phonetics, I just never know which one is going to come out.
not all phonetic alphabets are the same.
Norway six alpha juliet romeo
november six america japan russia
norway six able john radio
november six All Junk Radio
norway six all japaneese rigs.
N6AJR
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6AJR on May 18, 2009
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Another problem arrises. I first learned to use phonetic alphabets in the boy scouts. I then used a different version in the military. I then got a job as a radio dispatcher and use yet a different phonetic alphabet for the state of California , and the I have the set I use for ham radio, ( a noob here too, did not get my first ham license till 1978) snd somewhere inther I was also on the good ole CB radio too.
So I always use phonetics, I just never know which one is going to come out.
not all phonetic alphabets are the same.
Norway six alpha juliet romeo
november six america japan russia
norway six able john radio
november six All Junk Radio
norway six all japaneese rigs.
N6AJR
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Proper Phonetics!
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by AA9KK on May 18, 2009
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I published this back on February 7, 2002 and September 30, 2003. These have always worked very well amongst operators I know. Give them a "test drive" and do inform me of their effectiveness. :)
A - Aegis
B - Brie
C - Cereal, Cocoa
D - Djibouti
E - Eye, Ewe
F - Fjord
G - Gnome, Gnu
H - Hombre
I - Iguana
J - Juarez
K - Knight
L - Llama
M - Mnemonic
N - Night, Nome, New
O - Ombre
P - Pneumatic, Phenomenon
Q - Quiche
R - Rote, Rye
S - Serial
T - Tsunami
U - Ursa, Uruguay
V - Voila
W - Wrote, Wry
X - Xenon
Y - Yttrium
Z - Zeitgeist
73,
Neil (Aegis Aegis Nine Knight Knight)
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K4KYV on May 18, 2009
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N0YAI: "I haven't seen anyone complain about ZED. I believe it's a throwback, but still... It has to be, by far, the most common non-standard phonetic in use."
"ZED" is not a phonetic. That's the way most English-speaking people throughout the world pronounce the last letter of the alphabet.
If you have a decent microphone, use good microphone technique and your audio is properly equalised to pass the sibilance sounds so that the articulation of your voice comes through clearly, 90% of the time you won't NEED to use phonetics.
Sometimes when people rapidly spell out a place name or a call sign over the air using phonetics and only phonetics, I have to hold the string of phonetics in memory and then interpret them, so it becomes a mental exercise kind of like copying CW. Usually, plain English would have worked better.
When you use phonetics, it works much better to say (the letter) + "as in" + (the phonetic): "A as in alpha, C as in charlie" etc.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by VE3OIJ on May 18, 2009
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>>But, I guess since they used proper phonetics, they are Grade A ham radio operators! (They did, actually.)
No, they aren't. You know that too. No reason to be obtuse.
Nobody has said that using proper phonetics makes you a good operator. We have said, however, that NOT using them definitely makes you NOT a good operator.
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by W0ZRK on May 18, 2009
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Here is one some love to hate too: Whiskey Zero ZED rk !!!! O.K ---Whiskey Zero ZULU Romeo Kilo--!! I have a fellow ham in my area who REFUSES to say ZED so I now use it all the time! (Bet all of you have heard ops using ZED on hf- I do) 73 de Windsor Zero Zanzibar Robert Kentucky Hi Hi !
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by KK5R on May 18, 2009
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I remember when my call was WB4DPG many, many years ago. I had been around radio for some 25 years already and knew the ITU phonetics but also knew that there were specific phonetics that were traditionally used by many in the police and various government entities. Even the Air Force used a service specific set of phonetics at one time and the tradition still persists with some who were there, did that!
There is the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie set and the Able, Baker, Charlie set and many others. I saw a listing of the various lists once and, if I remember correctly, there were about a half-dozen recognized phonetic listings.
I usually used Delta, Papa, Golf for my WB4DPG callsign but once had to go a bit further and used the alternate that was once recognized using country names. Therefore, it was Denmark, Portugal, Germany. I was once enticed to even use Don't Play Games when one real dense dunce had a problem with phonetics. Now, however KK5R has a simple Kilo, Kilo, Five, Romeo phonetic and this is used without exception. Still, though, I get some who want to repeat my call with Radio instead of Romeo and I get a few who seem to want to "correct" me to what they think is more proper. Strange!
The ITU phonetics are what the military uses and they rationalized that those particular words were found to be recognized by more people around the world. Even those who do not know much English still know what Yankee means as regards phonetics. The logic is faultless, in my opinion.
Some "inventions" often take longer to get across than the standard phonetics. Economy of communication, then, indicates that standard phonetics is best if we are indeed interested in good voice communication.
Also, the name of various letters of the alphabet was taught in school many years ago. Zed is the name of the "Z" as is Em the name of "M" so when someone uses Zed or some of the other letters, that is actually how it is written when the name is used. We all know about "Fit to a Tee" and Tee is the written, spelled-out way of representing the letter "T"... Therefore, especially for the Brits, many of the pecualiarities of language are somewhat obvious but many have never known what it means when they hear words like Zed, Ess, Vee, etc., but these are merely the way the word is written instead of the abbreviated form of the letter.
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by W3HR on May 18, 2009
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>>I hear kilowatt I think 'KW.' <<
Me, too.
It's not that difficult to just do it properly. I came into ham radio already knowing ITU phonetics, from my involvement with general aviation. Even in ground school, it didn't take me that long to have them memorized.
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by W7XU on May 18, 2009
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K4KYV: "When you use phonetics, it works much better to say (the letter) + "as in" + (the phonetic): "A as in alpha, C as in charlie" etc."
I disagree with the above comment. I find that method to be verbose and potentially confusing. For me, saying "A as in alpha" adds nothing to understanding when compared to a simple "alpha."
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KV7M on May 18, 2009
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HAHAHAHA, GOOD ONE!
"if any one tries to use none standard phonetics..........................................................................................................i'll kill 'em"
LOL!
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 18, 2009
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Been an interesting thread with the noobs trying to tell OGs, Original Generals, they shouldn't have used and use Phonetics like Father And Mother, Cake Of Ice, King Queen, King Cookie Eater, Push Button, Witch Doctor, etc.
Next up, Noobs can proclaim that a dash should never be used to indicated the end of a sentence. Good operating procedure is to use a period, PERIOD!
Use a N for 9?
T for a 0?
R for a 5?!
K to indicate 1,000!
NO WAY!! Not proper operating procedure.
Elongate the daaaah in a K at the end of transmission!? NAughty, naughty. Not proper operating procedure!
73
KN
Bob
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by KV7M on May 18, 2009
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climb down off the cross,we need the wood so we can build a bridge and .................get over it.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 19, 2009
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Out here, north of the town too tough to die, we use adobie bricks, and build roads thru the washes, never bridges. That way when the monsoons roll thru, we get to watch the tourists in their cars float down the washes in their cars.
73
Bob
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by PULLRAFTT on May 19, 2009
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by KD5SFK on May 14, 2009
"Hey, at least you don't hear 10-codes!"
by Pullraftt
What's wrong with using 10-codes? They have been around as long as the phonetics have, and are used in many radio services.
10-4
zw
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by KK5R on May 20, 2009
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As a follow-up to the topic, here is a good place to see some listings of phonetics:
http://morsecode.scphillips.com/alphabet.html
As anyone can see, there are many and I'm sure these are only the most common. Fortunate for us, we only have one that is universally recognized.
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by KK5R on May 20, 2009
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I just found a more complete listing of phonetics (for those hungry for info...).
http://www.bckelk.ukfsn.org/menu.html
This is so complete that I was afraid to get into it since life is lovely but limited.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by PULLRAFTT on May 20, 2009
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Historic overview of ten-codes
The development of the 10-codes began, in 1937, at a time when police radio channels were limited to reduce use of speech on the radio. Credit to the originator goes to Charles "Charlie" Hopper. He was the Communications Director at the Illinois State Police, District 10, located in Pesotum, Illinois. Hopper was involved in radio for many years and saw a need to abbreviate radio transmissions on State Police bands.[2] Experienced radio operators know that the first syllable of a transmission is frequently not going to be understood, but is a necessary part of "tuning in"; hence preceding every code with "ten" allows a better chance of understanding the critical portion. Also the radios of the day were based on vacuum tubes, with a small motor-generator (called a dynamotor) used to generate the high voltage (300–600 volts, depending on the type of radio) needed to operate the transmitter, and the dynamotor took 1/10 to 1/4 of a second to "spin up". The officers were trained to push the microphone button, and wait a moment, then talk, but sometimes they would forget and preceeding every code with "ten-" gave the radio transmitter time to come up to full power.
Ten-codes were later adapted for use by CB radio enthusiasts before its pop culture explosion in the late 1970s. The tremendous popularity of the 1975 Convoy song by C.W. McCall depicting droll conversation among CB-communicating truckers put several phrases, such as 10-4 for "understood" and what's your twenty? (10-20) for "where are you?" into common and enduring use in American English. The song was followed by a 1978 movie Convoy which further entrenched the use of ten-codes in casual conversation.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N6JWN on May 20, 2009
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After seeing this same gripe in this month’s QST, I feel the need to weigh in on the subject. All of you that hold this gripe close. GIVE IT UP and LET IT GO, Life is too short and there are many other things in this world that need fixing. LIKE BPL. If your running official emergency communications then you might have a gripe hoverer 99% of you don’t volunteer for anything so stuff it. Gee wiz if you’re on the air and you miss part or all of a call sign, just ask for their call again or as in most cases if you repeat their call back to them and it is wrong they will let you know it’s wrong and correct you. BAG your complaints and live with it, we are all out here to have fun.
November Six Just Went Nuts
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by K8XF on May 20, 2009
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I agree with the author. Many times I have had a some problem understanding some OT mumble some silly phonetic for a letter. Us the standard Military ones...and lets stop using WW2 Phonetics while we are at it. The war is over. Roger that OM?
73
Mike K8XF
Kilo 8 Xray Foxtrot
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by N4KC on May 20, 2009
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The ten-code history is interesting. Though not a regular viewer, I happened upon an episode of "Cops" on TV the other day. They were featuring a department somewhere in South Florida.
To my surprise, the police officers were using Q-signals! Instead of, "Roger" or "10-4," they would confirm receipt of a dispatch with, "QSL!" Or tell the dispatcher to "QRX" while they made a traffic stop.
Don N4KC
www.donkeith.com
www.n4kc.com
www.twitter.com/don_keith
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by K4DPK on May 20, 2009
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With so much time spent on so many posts in reply to this simple article, one wonders what advancements in our field might result, if we all spent this degree of effort on technical ideas and understanding.
Phil C. Sr.
K4DPK
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K4DPK on May 20, 2009
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It seems to me that if you spent this much time on building a better antenna or an amplifier, the guy on the other end just might be able to understand what you are saying.
Phil C.
K4DPK
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KK5R on May 20, 2009
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We all try to be the best radio operators possible. This means being as technical and as professional as possible. We are not all in this to build antennas although many of us do enjoy this as well as the many other elements of the hobby. The hobby is so big, so broad that there is plenty there for everyone. However, if being the best operator possible, as well as the best technician possible, then this gives us a well-rounded foundation in the hobby.
We need not limit the hobby. To put some special emphasis on Phonetics at this time does not mark us as some kind of fanatic that only lives and breathes the promotion of professional operation. We are not pointing the ugly finger at anyone. However, as I said, we need not be bogged down with this or any other element of the hobby but when we take a few minutes here and there to show a desire that others share the care and want others to be more like the old, traditional ham, the kind that did not need to be trained to be good radio operators during WW2 and other wars afterwards, then this need not be disparaged.
I have known hams who only built amplifiers, others who only climbed towers and others who sat for hours and built K2's, K3's and thrilled to see a Heathkit not yet assembled. Many of these never spent much time on the air except to experiment or try out a "new" rig no matter of what vintage. However, I do not see them as less a ham than am I nor do I want others to see that my time spent looking for a signal report from a guy in the Canary Islands leaves me with a somewhat narrow view of the hobby. In my case, I run hot and cold for the various aspects of the hobby. I feel I am well-rounded as I believe most hams are. I have used RTTY in the past but never SSTV. This does not make me a "specialist" nor a too-focused ham. As I said, my interests run hot and cold and not all in one area.
The operating practices of many hams leave something to be desired by purists but I believe we can indeed carry things too far by throwing it in their faces. In many cases, they are only reflecting their range of experiences. Phonetics are important to me but not as important as a couple of dozen other things in the operation of a station that I feel may be more important. However, and I believe this is true of the hobby, Ham Radio is not one big monstrous thing, it is 10,000 little things... If we pay attention to as many of them as possible, the better the hobby will be for the majority.
Therefore, let me be an optimist as I have tried to be in my previous comments. I posted sites where hams could see other comments and essays about Phonetics. I then left it to everyone who cared to go check out those sites and be a bit better informed about the origin and use of phonetics. Here and there I have seen others' comments that left me with more knowledge and understanding and I am grateful for those comments. I do not feel that anything negative needs to be posted on this topic, however. Where the rub is where someone may have the attitude that Phonetics are NOT important and there is enough evidence to show that there is a distinct place for Phonetics in Ham Radio. In fact, it is a tradition that may be perpetuated with pride, in some cases, and it becomes part of the language of Ham Radio just like Q-signals, Morse code and other elements of our communication.
I only wish everyone enjoyed every element of our hobby as I do. I sometimes hear a strange Phonetic utterance and only smile about it and resolve to not fall prey to such slackness and ignore what has gone before in our hobby. It won't be long before this hobby will be a century old and I am sure those early hams had their "language" and they were not laughed at as much as admired by people who wished they could do what we do as a mere matter of routine.
Let's have fun with the hobby. Everything in its place, everything in its time.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 20, 2009
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Here is what we need, PPs to go along with OOs.
PPs, Phonetic Police, would petition the FCC to adopt legal phonetics. Then PPs could stream onto hams who don't use legal phonetics, and send "yellow-snow" notes to the FCC about the violations.
PPs would get yellow sashes, like crossing guards, and could issue citations for improper sentence construction, like "send me a letter", "research indicates", me gusta, at any gathering of hams.
Better get your pps, proper procedures, in line or the PPs will anoint you (as a bad op)!
Hi Hi
73
Bob
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by G3RZP on May 21, 2009
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I agree with W8FN. The IPA phonetics are NOT good in poor Signal to Noise (S/N) or high QRM conditions. They were never intended to be, either, being meant for clarity with very strong accents fron non-native English speakers. Several of the words use 'soft' syllables which are low energy, while the majority of the words are of only two syllables. The use of longer words of three or more syllables provides syllabic redundancy and is akin to using Forward Error Correction (FEC) in a digital system. The European VHF SSB DX'ers noted this problem with the IPA nearly thirty years ago.
Additionally, when it comes to DXing, the message is really very short. Your call, followed by 'Roger, Roger, you're Five and Nine, 73, thanks'. In a contest, it's even shorter.
Indeed, communication theory tells us that increasing the number of syllables will help in poor conditions, while repetition is not so good. This is because a 'weak' word like 'sierra' may well not get through the second or third time, while 'Santiago' has hard 't' and 'g' sounds and more syllables. The weak words are really pathological cases which, under some circumstances, won't get through unless a revertive check is made, and quite possibly not even then. A revertive check is sending the message as received back to the originator, a process known as 'collation'.
The advanatge of the IPA is familiarity. So if the S/N is good and/or the QRM low, it works very well. When those conditions don't apply, there are problems. (Incidentally, have you ever noticed that if there's QSB, it always has the right timing to keep taking out the same part of a guy's callsign? - Murphy at work!)
The choice of phonetic alphabet should be adaptive, depending on conditions. Fixing hard and fast rules to amateur communications that run at low S/N, high QRM and very short messages is just not good communications engineering practice - the prime requirement is that 'the message will get through'.
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by KC9EOT on May 21, 2009
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Dealing with bad phonetics isn't that difficult, while I do agree that if we are going to operate our radios we ought to do it the right way. A bigger problem that I see is when some ID the run their characters together in such a way that a 2x3 call sign becomes a 2x2 if your when you hear it. In some cases say area w8azr would sound like w8zr because the 8 and a are run together. That wouldnt happen if phonetics were used instead of letters but in either case cleaning up our act would be nice.
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by KD5KJD on May 21, 2009
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I am soooo with you on this issue!
Sugar for Sierra... Have had a couple of grumpy old guys who ADAMANTLY refuse to use Sierra. Screaming into their mics, "It's SUGAR NOT SIERRA God****it!"
Or the guys who use Police Phonetics, the use of first proper names for letters. A=Adam, B=Bruce, etc....
I honestly have a better chance of understanding some heavily accented DX using proper phonetics than some of the folks trying to be cute or otherwise 'easier understood.'
Just my two cents' worth...
Best of 73!
Luis KD5KJD... that's Lima Uniform India Sierra and call here is Kilo Delta 5 Kilo Juliet Delta, Old Man!
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by G3RZP on May 21, 2009
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Luis
When the snr is about 6dB at best, is that 'Sierra' or 'X ray'? under very poor conditions they sound the same. Similarly 'kilo' and 'Tango'. maybe some of the old boys who have been DXing for years know a thing or two - by the time you have over 340 countries 'under your belt', you've found out about phonetics and QRM.
But under good conditions, you're right!
73 is 'Best wishes' Best of 73 is somewhat meaningless.
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by KK5R on May 21, 2009
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G3RZP said:
...
73 is 'Best wishes' Best of 73 is somewhat meaningless.
Agreed! "Best of 73" is meaningless. Also, in the same vein, "73S" is also meaningless... 73 (best wishes) is already plural...73S is like saying "Best Wisheses."
Ain't Ham Radio fun? Well, it's never boring, at least.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by PULLRAFTT on May 22, 2009
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73, 73's, best of 73, best of 73's, 88's, 10-4, roger that, over, alpha, america, bravo, beta....everyone has his own way of doing it. So what's the big deal? Who's right? Who's wrong?
WHO CARES!
Stop nitpicking and just enjoy the hobby, take people for what they are, don't criticize, don't correct, just talk on the radio and have fun, and if you don't like what you hear, spin the dial and listen somewhere else.
To each his own.
Have a safe and happy Memorial Day weekend.
-zw
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by KK5R on May 22, 2009
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73, 73's, best of 73, best of 73's, 88's, 10-4, roger that, over, alpha, america, bravo, beta....everyone has his own way of doing it. So what's the big deal? Who's right? Who's wrong?
WHO CARES!
Stop nitpicking and just enjoy the hobby, take people for what they are, don't criticize, don't correct, just talk on the radio and have fun, and if you don't like what you hear, spin the dial and listen somewhere else.
To each his own.
Have a safe and happy Memorial Day weekend.
-zw
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's a big 10-4, Good Buddy... Heh-heh
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W9IND on May 22, 2009
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Sorry, but I have to agree with N7YA on this one: Standard phonetics are not always superior in marginal conditions. In fact, sometimes they're an obstacle to communication.
One of the main problems with "proper" phonetics is that they don't contain the sound of the vowel -- Alfa instead of Able, Echo instead of Easy, Oscar instead of Ocean. When the band is down, it's a lot easier to mistake Alfa for Oscar than Able for Ocean.
Also, short words like Golf can disappear in the QSB (or, for that matter, the QRM or QRN). That's why, instead of continuing to say, "Alfa! Alfa! Alfa!" (and continuing to hear, "What? What? What?"), it makes more sense to say, "Alfa ... Able ... America."
Likewise, if Golf doesn't get through, then instead of sticking to, "Golf ... Golf ... Golf," try Germany and Guatemala instead.
And while I don't advocate cutesy phonetics, keep in mind that familiar phrases sometimes work better -- for instance, I once heard an op with the suffix of NPO provide instant clarification with "Non Profit Organization."
You say that "If conditions are rough, I'll repeat [your callsign] phonetically several times." Well, sometimes if you switch to something else -- such as "Japan Texas" -- you might not have to repeat it several times.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W7ETA on May 22, 2009
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How about this?
Everyone with 320 confirmed countries, or more, that only have only uttered ITU phonetics, raise your hand.
I don't see any raised hands out there.
OR. Anyone with more than 320 confirmed, who is lecturing other ops to only use ITU phonetics, stand on your soap box and raise your hand.
Anyone see any raised hands?
:-)
73
Bob
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA2JJH on May 23, 2009
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Hmmmm...I do not see any hands either. If I did I would have assumed someone poured something psychoactive in my drink.
I have been using the standard phonetics for all of my ham life.
That is over 30 years or so. Good as well as bad habits die from lack of practice.
Funny how the Police in NYC, use biblical names.
ADAM, BRAVE, CHARLES, DAVID,EDWARD....ECT.
Not a whiff of mil phonetics. One Ham on 2M used the most horrible, if not indecent phonetics. It was ON the ACD repeater. A potent repeater located in the CRYSTLER building, ABLE, CHUCKIE, DO-DO!!!??? There was worse too.
Always good to pick a defacto standard and BE UNIFORM WITH IT.
If its broke......then fix it.
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by WA2JJH on May 23, 2009
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Hmmmm...I do not see any hands either. If I did I would have assumed someone poured something psychoactive in my drink.
I have been using the standard phonetics for all of my ham life.
That is over 30 years or so. Good as well as bad habits die from lack of practice.
Funny how the Police in NYC, use biblical names.
ADAM, BRAVE, CHARLES, DAVID,EDWARD....ECT.
Not a whiff of mil phonetics. One Ham on 2M used the most horrible, if not indecent phonetics. It was ON the ACD repeater. A potent repeater located in the CRYSTLER building, ABLE, CHUCKIE, DO-DO!!!??? There was worse too.
Always good to pick a defacto standard and BE UNIFORM WITH IT.
If its broke......then fix it.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by N5NX on May 23, 2009
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I've long wanted to make the same point, but I knew exactly what would happen - lots of people reacting as if they were being told what to do... when in fact it just boils down to common sense.
The reason for a standard is... duh! It's standard! When you learn morse code, you learn to associate a certain sound pattern to a letter. With practice, it becomes automatic.
The same is true of the concept of the phonetic alphabet. You hear the same word over and over and soon learn to autmatically think the letter when you hear the word. But if every operator uses a different word for "R" or for "G", then you have to pause and think what letter is at the beginning of that word. It's not fast and automatic.
I do agree that certain words in the list seem to not work well... so why not work with the ARRL to come up with an improved phonetic alphabet, and then all of us adopt it as a standard.
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by KC7YCL on May 23, 2009
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I always confuse "kilowatt" with "kilo whiskey", even on FM. My mind is trained for correct phonetics, and if I hear incorrect phonetics, I screw it up.
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by N7WY on May 23, 2009
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A as in Aisle
G as in Gnome
J as in Jalisco
M as in Mnemonic
P as in Pseudonym
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by KC0QNX on May 24, 2009
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You know, I really do appreciate you guys. Yes, proper phonetics have their place but man oh man do we have a few who really should lighten up a bit. I say this because no matter what thread I read through, there's no joy there for more than a few of you. It's really not something to get your blood pressure up over guys.
Now watch how many come back flaming at me for this and note that I have not singled anyone out either, merely stating my observations.
Overall I have felt that almost everyone I have qso"d with since upgrading to General a few years back ( YES, YES.....I AM A NO-CODE ) has been pleasurable enough. I save the messing around for our local repeater with the regular guys and keep my phonetics "official"on HF, although it doesn't bother me in the least when others don't. I'm just happy to hear more activity and more folks getting involved.
kc0qnx
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by WB6DGN on May 25, 2009
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"For that reason alone I sometimes sign as Germany Zero Romeo India Foxtrot - the more percussive 'GERMANY' can work better than 'GOLF' under some circumstances."
You've obviously never heard an irate golfer cussing out the sport!
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by KA3OUC on May 25, 2009
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Good job John Tate !
My friend and I talk about this all the time.
By using other than the standards, it helps us identify the "LIDS" on the air.
I say there are NO exceptions for deviation.
When Juliet becomes Japan, Charlie becomes Canada...now we are trying to figure out if there are giving a QTH.
Don't be a Lid !
Be professional !
Charlie
Kilo Alph Three Oscar Uniform Charlie = KA3OUC
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA2JJH on May 26, 2009
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Makes one ponder. Aviation still uses mostly AM modulation for commercial craft. Something about phase cancellation are used in one of the sidebands of the AM signal for avaition guidance systems.
Perhaps one small reason these mil spec time as well as time honered phonetics are used today.
Perhaps early AM high level modulators make proper phonetics sound proper. WOW...that sounds lame :)!!!!!!
As for DX, the phonetics are universal. Of course CW is the best universal lauaguage.(besides math)
So GLD Phonetics are not an issue in CW. However, I do use the standard
srt hnd abbvs fer CW.
Heck, this hobby is all about communication and the technology behind it.
I remember working the old USSR stations on CW, during the cold war.
All the stations were collectives of hams that built one rig for the club. The Russians were a little paranoid about what they sent out.
The most common was Rig Here has 10 tubes. Nothing else was said about the station.
Sorry for vectoring of course from standard phonetics. Sure, nobody is perfect. In my early General years, I would substitute a phonetic. I was new and nervous about using my new voice privs.
I think most agree that most of the standards make sense. The younger hams find them either ultra cool or horribly hickish.
Fox-trot...whats a foxtrot. A dance, or dancing with wolf like dogs?:)
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by AB7E on May 26, 2009
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KA3OUC = another self-righteous ham who rigidly and exclusively espouses ITU phonetics (and loudly proclaims all others to be lids) but doesn't even show up in either the LoTW (DXing) or SCP (contesting) databases. That's kind of like preaching how everyone else should play chess when all you play is stud poker.
Dave AB7E
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by WA2JJH on May 26, 2009
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Dave, do you remember an O.T. from 20 years back. His Voice CQ was.........Hello CQ, CQ ...NO LIDS, NO KIDS, NO SPACE CADETS!!!!
He would repeat his call one more time then say........Speak, only if you have something to say!
Now that dude was the perfect example of reaction formication.
In other words, he was being a LID by sending an ultra snotty, elitist,
list of who had the right to answer his CQ.
I know he is SK now. Never liked talking about the dead. However, this guy was the real deal in LIDS.
No Lids is self explainatory. No kids, this dude thought there should be an age requirement of 18 for General.
No space cadets.....That was any ham using the latest solid state rig.
Back then in 78, the TS-820 or TR-7 were space cadet rigs.
Hey, ham radio would be boring if we did not have our more eccentric types.
They dudes with the HI-FI SSB( craze few years back(on 14.178) were considered brilliant by some. Narsisistic spectrum hogs by others.
The dude that started the craze was a very nice knowledgable broadcast engineer. One Member lived 300 meters from my QTH.
We hated each other with a severe passion! He moved out of the city.
My definition for a LID, is not a new ham operating poorly. They become LIDS after they are told the way it is done. Then just to prove how unique and special they are, continue with their LIDDY(gordon) behavoir. Chronic repeater Kurchunkers are AT THE BOTTOM!!!!!
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by AB7E on May 26, 2009
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WA2JJH,
Apparently there were more than one of those guys. There was a very recent thread (I think in one of the forums here on eHam) on that very subject, and several hams were able to remember the callsigns of a few different lids who acted like that. One was a W6, but there were others. And yes, I remember one myself from years past, but his callsign escapes me as well. A pox on each of them (if any are still living) ... they certainly didn't bring any honor or value to our hobby.
73,
Dave AB7E
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KE5YJR on May 27, 2009
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AGREED, use proper phonetics!! A local who just received his tech ticket spent a whole evening trying to relate his call as being Kentucky Fried # AAAAAAAHHHHHHH. TFF. I listened for several hours before politely correcting him so everyone finally knew who they were talking to, KF#AAH. I think some people lack the desire to learn anything about proper communication on their new hamset.
73,
Robert
KE5YJR
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Proper Phonetics!
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by N5KQQ on May 27, 2009
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November 5 Kilo Quebec Quebec is the proper phonetics for my call, this I know along with the rest of the Phonetics. But in a pile up with heavy QRM, King Queen Queen works better. Sometimes I will just shoot out the last two, and say quack quack, that also works good. That does not make me a bad operator, that makes me a good DX operator. Like most DX operators, I will do what ever it takes to work the station I want and/or need. Once I get his or her attention I will alway go back to proper phonetics.
Best 73's to all.
de November 5 King Queen Queen from the Quack Shack.
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K1CJS on May 27, 2009
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Just remember what the 'proper' phonetics are for your callsign, and if there's a problem elsewhere.... Well, either hang a list or wing it--as most of us do. Geez, people--it's a hobby.....
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Proper Phonetics!
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by K4DPK on May 27, 2009
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There are good arguments against the "cute" phonetics we hear on the bands. Some of these homegrown tags are downright offensive. Riley Hollingsworth indicated several years ago that they (FCC) wanted us to stop using these.
But the strict adherence to particular phonetics (just for the sake of uniformity) that has been advocated here is not one of these good arguments.
It is easy to tell that many of those most favoring this proposal are relatively inexperienced in working DX.
If they were experienced, they'd realize how often many of the two-syllable phonetics are mistaken for each other.
Examples:
Alpha, Delta, Echo
Bravo, Papa
Echo, Kilo
and so on.
In QRM, two-syllable phonetics must often be repeated, or replaced with alternate words.
In my case, Denmark Pacific Kilowatt almost always straightens out the confusion.
There are suffixes out there that in my opinion should not have been issued. In the old days, FCC did a better job of bird-dogging, but thanks to the increased numbers and the computer age, this seems to no longer be the case.
I've heard, as I'm sure many of you have, phonetics on the phone bands that I wouldn't want small children to hear. Had the author of this article directed his criticisms at those, his remarks would make more sense, and I and most other experienced hams I believe would have agreed wholeheartedly.
But to put forth and then to support an unyielding insistence on the use of a single set of phonetics is silly in the extreme. Most of us use reasonable phonetics on the air, but in the pile-ups, the rule is to be understood. That means not repeating the same phonetic again and again when the other guy obviously can't dig it out.
One noteworthy thing about this particular article, is that it has drawn such a huge number of comments.
It would be more comforting to have this sort of participation in an antenna or other technical discussion.
On the other hand, with this many folks tied up here arguing about what phonetics to use, there are fewer competitors in the pile-ups.
Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KC3Z on May 27, 2009
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Amen John. When I read the "reasons" for using made-up phonics I can't help but cringe and shake my head. No, No, No. I won't repeat your call sign with bulls--t. phonics. Maybe we'll make contact on another day. KC3Z
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by W3HR on June 1, 2009
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>>But to put forth and then to support an unyielding insistence on the use of a single set of phonetics is silly in the extreme.<<
Not as silly as using the stupid phonetics.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by K4DPK on June 1, 2009
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What????
Look at this quote: " If using those phonetics do not clear up a misheard letter, then the conditions are just not favorable for a phone contact." So--you should just try again another day????
He's saying if the 3Y misunderstands Papa for Alpha, you can't use Portugal or Pacific????
Give me a break and get real.
I don't like the cutesy or obscene phonetics, and nobody I know does... But to promote this kind of limitation on phonetics is ridiculous, and I think most reasonable people understand that.
Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk
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Proper Phonetics!
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by KK5R on June 1, 2009
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Phil C. Sr. k4dpk said:
I don't like the cutesy or obscene phonetics, and nobody I know does... But to promote this kind of limitation on phonetics is ridiculous, and I think most reasonable people understand that.
--------------
CORRECTIMUNDO! It's all about communication.
I also think most reasonable and traditional hams prefer being reasonable and traditional and therefore prefer the use of the most-recommended system of phonetics and will try this first. But, after multiple passes back-and-forth trying to get a callsign across to the other ham, it is not a sin or breaking all that is holy in ham radio to do the callsign using names of countries or some other method that may get the message across.
We're also talking about preferences and doing what is more acceptable in the amateur community. I prefer using the traditional phonetics and make more than one attempt to do it right but have resorted to "Radio" for "Romeo" when it is apparent that the ham on the other end is not into Shakespeare. It is also found that many foreign hams, and new hams here, have learned their phonetics from hams that are not too traditional.
To put it in perspective, though, there are different operating procedures when conditions are perfect and when they are not. A purist will love it when their signal is 5X9-40 over S9 but when it is 3X2 with QSB and repeats are necessary, then other tricks of the hobby may be adopted.
I might also make a note that if someone is a contester and has worked 200-plus countries is not a determining factor in saying one is qualified to speak on this subject. A chest full of QSL cards or a huge antenna farm is not what makes us hams. We are communicators and some are more expert than others while never doing the contest thing. And, although some have been in the art for 30-40 years and still act like beginners, they are still hams and deserve some respect for that.
I respect someone when he insists on saying my call is Kilowatt-Kilowatt-Five-Radio instead of the more tradional kilo-kilo-five-romeo because he is a ham, I can hear him and he can hear me. I do not respect anyone who uses too-colorful phonetics especially if the color is "off." We should be above this childishness.
We can act and pretend to be professional and be respected even if we may chuckle to ourselves as we hear someone using some phonetic that would never appear on a proper phonetic list; We just do not have to be like or copy others to be accepted by them.
This discussion may not be putting out fires or saving any lives but it is still interesting. Many good observations. Much appreciated...
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KB1QBZ on June 2, 2009
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I find when I'm working DX that they often can't get it when I say
Kilo Bravo 1 Quebec Bravo Zulu
but they get it every time when I say
King Boy 1 Queen Boy Zanzibar
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by NO6L on June 3, 2009
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I'm a little late to this party, but due to my Amateur Radio "task" on Tuesdays, I have a unique perspective. I serve as the Southern relay for WARFA and sat in for the West Coast Swap Net and I can assure you, there's nothing that brings weak signal traffic to it's knees faster than someone using "custom" or geographical names for phonetics. Even if it's not weak signal traffic, geographical locations as phonetics are an absolute pain in the neck.
I shall elaborate; Is Northwood-Andy-6-Joey-Newbie-Germany NA6JN operating from Germany? Is Northwood where A6JN is from but he's operating from Germany while on vacation? Or, in weak signal conditions, is Good-Cold-Beer Good-Old-Beer, Good-Cold-Deer, Good-Old-Deer or is this cheracter going to *get* a good, cold beer? Whatever the case, the "Newbie" phonetic previously mentioned pretty much makes the whole point, now doesn't it? Now, if you're participating in a "stateside" ragchew, with people you know, and, conditions permit, knock yourself out.
And don't even think of some X-rated direct or double entendre type phonetics with me or you'll get unceremoniously ignored, or worse, become my personal source of entertainment, then ignored. Hey, I'm no prude, but I kind of like to keep "private time" in my bedroom and not share it with people I don't know, and so should you.
And for those that seem to think I or others are too uptight or need to lighten up and get over it, you lighten up. If you can't participate in Amateur Radio in a way that doesn't make other peoples participation in the same a "job" to understand you rather than a hobby, try something like CB. The equipment's cheaper and they enjoy not being able to comprehend what's being communicated.
Be that as it may, cheers, good day and good signals.
de NO6L
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by NO6L on June 3, 2009
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>by N4OI on May 14, 2009
>I always use standard phonetics, but they get a little cumbersome when using morse code. It would be great to have some abbreviated phonetics for CW use. 73 de Ken -- N4OI
Uh, let's see, where do I go with this? Is it satire? Is he serious? I just don't know. Satire, it's amusing. Serious, he's never touched a key or paddle in his life and should just go ahead and admit it.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KJ4DJF on June 4, 2009
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Good grief. So what. There is now law that hams must nor should there be.
Live and let live. Controlling others freedom of verbal expression? You would make a fine nazi.
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by KV7M on June 4, 2009
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hahahaha,a good sense of humor gets you a long ways om!
best regards
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RE: Proper Phonetics!
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by NO6L on June 5, 2009
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>by KJ4DJF on June 4, 2009
>Good grief. So what. There is now law that hams must nor should there be.
>Live and let live. Controlling others freedom of verbal expression? You would make a fine nazi.
What does "...law that hams must nor should there be..." supposed to mean? Who is it directed at, the author of the article or someone else? How is anyone stating "law"? Has anyone said "you better do this or that?
Are you serious? Anybody that disagrees with you is a Nazi Or Fascist? Who is or wants to control your freedom? I don't know about others, but I, and I'm pretty sure anyone else in this forum doesn't get paid enough to to control anyones liberties and anyone who thinks otherwise is a pretentious conspiracy nut.
Be sure you know just what you're blurting out before proclaiming anyone a Nazi, there Johnson. Thousands died to free the world from them and as far as I'm concerned you diminish their memory by labeling people Nazies without knowing anything about history.
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