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A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
Mike Bryce (WB8VGE)
on
June 8, 2009
View comments about this article!
When my wife and I purchased the land to build our home on, there was one very important requirement. I had to have lots of solar access as we were going to build a solar powered home. That being said, after the array went on line, getting an antenna up in the air proved interesting. For you see, solar access means no trees to hang wire from. The only tree we have in our 4+ acres is an ugly sickly walnut tree up by the front year. Yes, I do have a wire hung from it, but wanted a bit more.
Why not put up a tower you ask? Well I've been thinking of that, but since I don't climb towers and there's no one locally that will, that leaves a whole lot of issues that need to be resolved before a tower goes up.
In the meantime, I managed to install a Hygain Hytower. It's a beast and works great. Somewhere around 2005 or so I got the burning desire to put up a 40-meter foursquare array. I've always enjoyed 40 meters so that band seemed a good place to put up the 4-square. I purchased one of Tom's Zero Five 40 meter verticals and installed it in the lower 40. Of course other projects came and went and the vertical was used just as a 40 meter vertical.
In late winter 2009, I decided to take the project forward again. So in this first part of the project, I'll put in the remaining three verticals, install the radial plates and lay down radials.
Its been said that even God had a plan, so to help keep my ducks in a row, here's my game plan.
40 meter four square using 4- 40 meter 1/4wave verticals
60 wire radials cut for 33' under each vertical
Either a DX engineering or Comtek controller
Going to use precut and tested wave cable set from either supplier
I choose 7.150 as the center of the band, while I work mostly CW, I do operated SSB
268 feet of Davis bury flex coax will be used to run RF to the array
I live in a rather rural setting, so I do not need permits or engineering drawings. You may so be sure you check. Some of the equipment I will be using does not mean I endorse those products.
Since I already had one vertical up, I used this one as my reference point. To gain access to the pipe holding the vertical up, I had to lay the antenna down.

To get the square “square” I use this cheap laser level. Picked it up at Mendelsons at Dayton this year for $10. The tripod was centered over the pipe and the angle set for 90 degs. When turned to 0 degs, I can get the other post at the corner. I had measured out 32.7 inches (1/4 wave on 40 meters) and marked that length with stakes and string. Yes, there's other means and methods of squaring up a square, but this seemed like an easier method than running string all over the place.
I know why this thing was $10. It's cheap! No matter how tight I tighten things, any movement whatsoever would cause the laser beam to bounce all over the place. By taking my time, I was able to shoot the laser to each of the three corners. 
Each corner was measured and center located using the laser. A straight stick was used to catch the laser light. I set the strings so that the laser just caught the edge of my upright stick.
 . 
Here's a better view of my laser catcher. I found the laser bright enough to see under full sun. However when the sun was low in the west, I could not see the laser anymore. I had to wait a bit toward dusk to catch the beam once more.

To catch the other corner, I had to move the laser and then reset it by shinning the beam back toward the reference point (the original antenna mount). Now I had all three corners marked and ready for the posthole digger.

First of the three-five foot 1.50 ID (the outside diameter is 1.90”) galvanized pipe going in. About 120 pounds of concrete mix was dry poured into each hole. A little bit of water was added and in a day or so, I'll have on mighty strong mount for the antenna.

Each pipe was leveled and tapped into position. This one needed just one more whack with a BFH to get it right on.

Here's the end result. The three pipes are in place. In the next few days the concrete will set up. In the meantime, I'll get the radial plates under the pipes and start laying out radials. That will be part two.
After I had all three pipes in place, I did a check by measuring the diagonals ( from one corner opposite the other corner) to see how square my square really is. With my cheap laser and some string, I did not get it perfectly square. It seems I am about one inch out of square. Sure would like to know how those Egyptian built those pyramids and got them square within a quarter of an inch. They must have used a better laser than I have.
Just as I was putting this together, I found out that I've screwed up a bit. I used the formula for a half wave dipole of 468/f to determine the 32”7” I needed for the verticals. It seems that using that formula for a four square is wrong. It should have been 246/f for the spacing. Ah poop! Holes are drilled, pipes cemented in, life goes on. Talking to several 4-square experts, the difference will more than likely not be measurable by me or anyone else.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K0BG on June 8, 2009
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Imagine the fun of putting up an 8 square? I know of at least 2 of these, and for the average amateur, the radial wire alone cost more than most tower setups. This begs the question, how dedicated do you have to be to undertake such a project? I think we'll all see by the time this one is over.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by W9OY on June 8, 2009
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your use of 234/F vs 246/F won't make a bit of difference to the performance
73 W9OY
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by WB8VGE on June 8, 2009
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Alan and the group...
Since the article was written, two of the three radial plates were installed and over 4000 feet of radial wire put down.
we have a menards super store that just went up and they have 14 gauge wire for $20 per 500'
I can get about 15 wires down at 33 feet per 500 feet of wire
And I kinda figured there would be no difference between the two formulas.
mike
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K0OD on June 8, 2009
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4-Squares want to work.
There's no need to measure anything precisely. And they are very broadbanded on 40 unlike Shorty Forty yagis.
Nor do the verticals have to be mounted in concrete. My self-supporting 4-square radiators were set in pipes that were just pounded into the soil. They survived more than a decade until one of my thin delrin rod insulators broke. Each vertical cost me about $50 to make. No one needs one of those thick, costly "Tom's Verticals" or a tilt base. I could remove a vertical by simply pulling it up from the pipe it was set in. The weak point physically is the phasing box, not the verticals.
My array surrounded a huge weeping willow tree and dodged other obstructions so it couldn't be exactly square or a 1/4 wave on a side.
Over several years, I did extensive field strength and other tests on phasing line length, element height (for some reason, >35' seemed best with my Comtek box) and components within the box. One of the great joys of vertical arrays is that they are so easy (and safe) to fiddle with. For fun, I tried to mess up the array's performance and found that hard to do!
I ran many comparisons between my little 4-square and shorty forty type yagis at heights to 100 feet. 4-squares have much higher directivity and noise reduction than short yagis. I could always hear what the yagis could hear, but the high yagis got thru first in pileups. Instant rotation was a joy in contesting and monstrous yagis aren't useful when the rotator is frozen straight south during winter contests!
BTW, If I had your land situation I'd elevate the radiators from the ground 8'to 15'. That might get you another few db at times.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K5END on June 8, 2009
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K0OD,
I think I worked you this weekend from NA5DV, USS Texas...was that you?
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K0OD on June 8, 2009
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Yep, worked a few of the ships. Thanks for the contact.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K9KEJ on June 8, 2009
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K0OD--What's going on with you?
Why do you have to slam ZERO FIVE--"Tom's verticals", as you put it. Do you know the guy or the company, or do you just like to rant and rave--or are you on the payroll of another antenna company? I bought 4 ZERO Five Verticals and have had nothing but great success with each of them--despite your negative comments, snide remarks and ankle-biting attitude!
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by KR4WM on June 8, 2009
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Y'know, somebody always has to pick apart technical aspects of some articles. I hate to be the one to point this out- but 32.7 inches is not a quarter wave on 40M. I'm sure the author meant FEET- a minor typo for those of us who know what he meant, but for a clueless newb, they might be thinking- only 32.7 inches, I can do that!!! The other technical problem I noticed is that the tape measure shows 32 feet, 7 inches, which is not the same as 32.7 feet. .7 times 12 is 8.4 inches, so the actual measurement should have been 32 feet, 8.4 inches. On 40M, in practice, it probably won't matter in the least, but if someone was duplicating this for a higher band and scaling the measurements, it might matter.
Other than that, GREAT PROJECT! I've been wanting to do about the same thing- but use military aluminum pipe that seems to be available for sale at every hamfest I've gone to recently, and it's CHEAP! Around $50 for 24 feet of the stuff, and it's about 1-1/2" in diameter, which should broadband a vertical nicely.
Best of luck to you in this fun project! 73, -KR4WM
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by KC8VWM on June 8, 2009
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A 1/4 wave vertical for 7.200 Mhz is 32ft. 6 - 1/32in.
lol..
Thanks for the nice article. Nicely done..
73 de Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K0OD on June 8, 2009
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K9KEJ asks: "Why do you have to slam ZERO FIVE."
I believe I posted the most thorough and utterly unbiased review of a 43' vertical to appear on eham. Specifically I wrote about my DXE MBVE-1 but everything I wrote applies to "Tom's Vertical" or 43' of old wire hanging from a tree limb.
http://www.eham.net/reviews/review/79889
http://www.eham.net/forums/TowerTalk/16123
I don't see a single product review of the ZeroFive that approaches those posts for detail on how 43 footers actually perform ***Against Competition*** when the rubber hits the road: 2008 CQWW CW DX contest; 48 hours; 5 bands; 494 Qs; exactly 100 countries; barefoot; from the midwest.
Sometimes I busted thru pileups quickly (but rarely on the first call) but once I gave up trying for a rare mult after 200 calls! I haven't seen many ZeroFive reviews admit total failure!
You'll note that I clearly say that my vertical was about useless on 160. I briefly describe my experience in the ARRL 160 and 10 meter contests, as well.
Useful info, don't you think?
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by KD5TNC on June 8, 2009
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K9KEJ, what did I miss? I've re-read K0OD's post several times and still can't find a slam, a dunk, or a punt. Maybe I'm too tired to see it?
Stan KD5TNC
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by WB2WIK on June 8, 2009
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"RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One Reply
by K9KEJ on June 8, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
K0OD--What's going on with you?
Why do you have to slam ZERO FIVE--"Tom's verticals", as you put it. Do you know the guy or the company, or do you just like to rant and rave--or are you on the payroll of another antenna company? I bought 4 ZERO Five Verticals and have had nothing but great success with each of them--despite your negative comments, snide remarks and ankle-biting attitude!"
::What? It's completely true that a 43' wire hanging from a tree is electrically identical to a ZERO-FIVE (or anyone else's) 43' vertical. The Zero-Five is well built and mechanically robust, but I can easily reproduce that using a 43' long wire hanging from a tree limb, reaching ground level, and the only difference is the cost: $3 vs. $300+. The radials are what make any vertical antenna actually *work*, and this article, despite the mistake the author made, is representative of good work.
Ironically, I can do exactly the same thing without all the verticals or the radials, on a similar sized lot by installing two short rhombics on four supports with switchable terminations. I've done that, and the results are something no one could believe unless you try it. Land required is similar, but cost is somewhat lower because the verticals and radial fields aren't required: Just non-conductive corner supports that can be made of creosote treated 4x4's planted in the ground using post hole diggers (ow, my back!).
In our younger days, we'd put these up for contests and take them down when the contest was over.
I wish my back was still that young! ;-)
WB2WIK/6
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by W6EM on June 8, 2009
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WB2WIK/6"::What? It's completely true that a 43' wire hanging from a tree is electrically identical to a ZERO-FIVE (or anyone else's) 43' vertical."
Not quite. The length to diameter ratio is considerably smaller for tubing (or a cage) than a single wire. That improves its useable bandwidth considerably.
73.
Lee
W6EM
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by W7ETA on June 8, 2009
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Great article!
Nice easy to follow prose.
Great pixs.
Thanks.
creosote!
A few years a go, I went into one of those HUGE home supply stores looking for creosote.
I looked high and low, covering each row in the store and the four corners, especially in the lumber and fence post sections--no luck.
I ask one of the employees "Where is the creosote?"
Blank stare. I repeated more slowly, cre o sote?
More speechless blank staring.
I finally blurted out "You know the stuff you treat fence posts with, before you put them in the ground, to prevent rotting.
I was told to try the paint section.
In the paint section I asked where is the creosote?
Blank stare. Creosote?
Yup I says. You know,it comes from the creosote bushes that grow wild all over the natural land here in Tucson. Nice pungent fragrance when it rains!
Whats it used for?
To treat fence posts so that they don't rot.
OH! that stuff--its illegal now.
Use Copper-Green wood preservative.
Best from Tucson, where the creosote multiply and grow with out fear.
I was gonna ask about 300 ohm twin lead for TV antennas but thought I'd been through enough for one day. Hi HI
73
Bob
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AC5UP on June 8, 2009
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Hate to be the wet blanket in the crowd, but if it were mine three of the posts would be moved to exactly a quarter wave apart. Yes, I know the 5% measurement error won't make or break the antenna, but I'd re-work it for two reasons... One pragmatic, the other less so.
1) Work the numbers and the current spacing is very close to textbook perfect on 7.51 MHz. 210 kHz above the top edge of the band. Before all is said and done there will be a buttload of time, effort and expense put into this project and I'd be hard pressed to rationalize going forward when I know the spacing is wrong. In practice the difference might be a fraction of a Decibel and the worst effect might be a minor side lobe or three, but, judging by the pics it's on a good piece of land with no obstructions or reason to compromise the accuracy of the build.
2) Even though this is irrational, I'd "know" that every time I didn't get a response from the first, second or third call it's because of the element spacing. That might not be a problem for others, but when I compare the days needed to fix the spacing vs the years I'd plan to use the antenna I think it's a no-brainer decision.
I'd straighten it out before I wish I had. ;)
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K5END on June 8, 2009
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ETA,
re: creosote
Go to Radio Shack sometime and ask what kind of vacuum tubes they carry. See what happens.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by N4JTE on June 8, 2009
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Not sure why you feel that 33ft spacing is wrong, close enough for 7.150. You could have saved mucho bucks cutting your own pahse lines but comtek has a well built solution. I never actually did a true 40 meter 4 square as I did not have the room for it . But a pair of phased reversible verticals yeilding 4 directions has worked extremely well. Be interesting to know how you make out with your project, tnx for sharing your progress.
Best regards,
Bob
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AB7E on June 8, 2009
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AC5UP,
You are either not an engineer, or you're a very poor one. Obsessing over such a minor difference is silly and wasteful of time and energy. Your comments show a great lack of perspective and I hope nobody takes you seriously.
Besides ... depending upon the actual phasing that comes out of the control box and the phasing lines, exactly a quarter wave may not be the optimum physical spacing anyway!
Dave AB7E
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by W7ETA on June 9, 2009
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"In practice the difference might be a fraction of a Decibel"
"Even though this is irrational,.."
Could be he is self-aware.
73
Bob
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K0OD on June 9, 2009
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"a quarter wave may not be the optimum physical spacing anyway!"
It's been 15 years since I modeled a 4-square but I think that is the case. Larger "squares" might be better. But one is limited in spacing by the length of the phasing lines going to the phasing box in the middle of the square.
--
I'm surprised that no one commented on my suggestion to lift the whole array 8' to 15' off the ground.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AC5UP on June 9, 2009
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All I know is that every reference to four squares that I've looked at space the elements 1/4 wavelength apart... Phasing lines cut for multiples of 1/4 wavelength, too. You'd almost think someone was trying to line something up in time and space.
I also know the difference between a quarter wave in free space and a quarter wave calculated with a 5% velocity factor.
But, thanks to the miracle of the interweb, I now know that element spacing in a phased array isn't all that critical....... Whooda' Thot?
Note to AB7E: If you have a cite for the concept of 1/4 wavelength spacing in a four square being less than optimum, please share the URL.
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A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by WB8VGE on June 9, 2009
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Gang…
Some comments on the comments:
K0OD: In my neck of the woods, just pounding in a pipe won’t hold anything up for long. I had a GAP vertical on a 6 x4 treated lumber post that got pulled out of the ground. Had the farmer behind me use his three-point auger to drill down 6 feet to reset the post. Then the next windstorm snapped the steel pipe in half. Cement and deep holes are required in my back yard.
Raising the whole shebang up to 8 to 15 feet would cause a war between the wife and I. Not worth the few db gain.
The first vertical, my reference point is a Tom’s Zero-Five antenna.
KR4WM: Since I move all over the band, there’s no real sweet spot. So, 32feet 7 inches works for me.
W7ETA: Yea, the government outlawed creosote. In fact there was a large plant in Orville Ohio that treated the railroad ties.
Menards opened a new store about 15 miles away. I went in asking for “TV mast pipe” you should have seen the look on the faces of the several I asked. NO ONE had clue what I wanted. Some guy even told me to call the cable company, as we don’t sell cable TV stuff here. Went to radio shack for some. A week later back at menards, I came across a rack of the stuff.
AC5UP: There’s enough adjustability in the mounts to allow me to move the antennas around on their mounting posts. This should allow me to adjust out the 5% error. Bottom line, I’ll more than likely never mess with it.
Since the run of coax to the array is in excess of 280 feet using davis RF bury flex coax. If I don’t get an answer on the first or second call, could it be element spacing or coax loss? Move the entire array or toss the bury flex and go with hardline. At some point you have to shoot the engineer and get the project moving.
Hell, I don’t get an answer on the fifth call most of the time anyway. I check into MIDCARS, say hello and then dive into some other project.
Everyone!
I’ve enjoyed the comments and have learned a great deal. In the next chapter, the radial plates and wires go in and the antennas go up.
Like just about everyone else in this country, I got laid off and now have the time to get this project moving. That is until I run out of money!
73, WB8VGE, Mike
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K5END on June 9, 2009
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>
"I'm surprised that no one commented on my suggestion to lift the whole array 8' to 15' off the ground."
I'd take that to mean no one disagrees with it, and by default it is a good suggestion.
As far as velocity factor, "c" in free space and in typical air are much closer to each other than to the speed in a conductor.
The speed of light in air, or any dielectric, depends on the wavelength and the index of refraction of that dielectric for that wavelength.
Speed of light in a conductor is much slower, and as a medium, MUCH lossier than in plain air or the ionosphere.
For example,the "F," and to slightly lesser extent the "E," layer(s) of the ionosphere have VERY LOW loss, and this is why even QRP works well for DX.
The "D" layer on the other hand is very lossy compared to the higher layers, and the lower the frequency the higher the loss (in any layer.) This is why AM Broadcast propagates so much better at night, when the D layer is essentially gone.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AB7E on June 9, 2009
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AC5UP: "Note to AB7E: If you have a cite for the concept of 1/4 wavelength spacing in a four square being less than optimum, please share the URL."
Ahhh ... you're lazy as well. A Google search on "4-square phasing" (without the quotes) returns this URL at the top of the page:
http://www.w8ji.com/tx_four_square.htm
And since you probably don't know it, adjusting phase and adjusting spacing are (within the context of this discussion) equivalent.
That work for you?
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K0OD on June 9, 2009
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Thanks for the comments, Mike. Some random info about 40 meter 4-squares:
Someone looking for a wife-pleasing 4-square might consider those 31' fiberglass verticals shown in eHam banners sometimes. They collapse to 45 inches, but are only wind rated to 40 mph.
http://www.s9antennas.com/s9v.html
Here's a YT video of that antenna. Like I said before, there's no need for a costly tilt base for 40 meter verticals, aluminum or fiberglass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGpdMP0CY8&feature=channel_page
---
What are you going to use for the phasing box dummy load? If your array is working properly little power will be wasted in that load. A few hams keep the DL inside their shack and continuously monitor power going into it. I used an old ten tech #239 rated at 300 watts. A Cantenna type KW DL, often used, is overkill. Properly working, your array should only dump 5-50 watts (out of a KW) into that resistor depending on the array direction and frequency.
---
Consider investing in a good Field Strength meter. I've had a Digi-Field meter for 15 years. I paid about $150 for mine. They're about twice that now.
http://www.digifield.com/
Useful for adjusting the array for max f/b. (but I don't think you'll be able to improve it much) There may be better/cheaper calibrated f/s meters made nowadays.
---
When's part II of your article coming out?
I'm curious whether you go with Comtek, or the DXE version which offers an omnidirectional pattern as well. My ancient Comtek box had the clear plastic cover which cracked easily. Comtek has made improvements over the years.
I was just reading the DX Engineering controller specs and manual. Very much upgraded from my 1993 Comtek box:
http://www.dxengineering.com/Parts.asp?ID=2656&PLID=174&SecID=85&DeptID=22&PartNo=DXE-TFS4-40-P
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AC5UP on June 9, 2009
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AB7E: And now I'm lazy as well... No matter, I lazily read through the URL from W8JI which you provided and noticed these words:
"One item overlooked throughout the history of the four-square is the effective element spacing. Effective element spacing is not the same as the distance along each side of the square. The effective spacing is less than that distance, because the array fires from corner to corner. The effective array length is 1.414 times the spacing along each side, not twice that length. With 90 degree per side array size, we really only have a 127 degree long end-fire array when firing across diagonal corners. The correct phasing for an optimum null at zero degrees elevation directly in line with the array is not 90 and 180 degrees, but is actually around 117 and 234 degrees!
http://www.w8ji.com/tx_four_square.htm "
Now... Here's the tricky part: Tom is talking about four elements physically spaced in a square 90 degrees apart, which is another way of saying 1/4 wavelength in free space. Electrically, he's talking about the phase angle across diagonal elements which comes in around 127 degrees.
Are the two comparable for the purpose of W8JI's analysis? Sure... As long as you start with 90 degree spacing. Otherwise, "almost" a quarter wavelength per physical side will yield "almost" 127 degrees (electrical phase) on the diagonal. Which would then demand phasing lines of "almost" the correct length.
Extrapolation is useful when you have a known starting point. If not, the computer term "GIGO" may apply.
I'm glad you referenced W8JI as whenever I see the call I tend to associate it with DX Engineering... And speaking of, here's a quote from their DXE-TFS four square controller manual:
"Each side of the square must be 1/4-wavelength in free space at the desired operating frequency. For example, each side must be 64.7 ft for a center frequency of 3.800 MHz.
Note that the free space formula 246/f (MHz) is used for array spacing - not the more familiar 234/f (MHz) used for antenna element lengths, which takes element end effect into account.
Array spacing is important in providing the deepest rear null – commonly observed when checking the front-to-back ratio (F/B).
Found near the middle of Page 6 in
http://www.dxengineering.com/pdf/TFS-Rev3.pdf "
Here's one more:
"The basic concept for a Four-Square array begins with four monoband vertical antennas spaced at the corners of a square that is 1/4-wavelength on a side. The vertical antennas must be resonant in the desired band of operation and directly fed by the coaxial cable phasing lines from the centrally located controller. The vertical antennas must be ungrounded and fed at the base.
http://www.dxengineering.com/Products.asp?ID=174&SecID=85&DeptID=22 "
My request still stands... Find a reference that claims anything other than 1/4 wavelength of physical spacing between four vertical radiators arranged as a square is optimum and I'll be grateful for the info.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by KC8VWM on June 9, 2009
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K5END
re: creosote
Go to Radio Shack sometime and ask what kind of vacuum tubes they carry. See what happens.
--------
"I am sorry sir, we don't carry any vacuum cleaner replacement parts here."
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by WB8VGE on June 9, 2009
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K0OD:
I've been kicking around the idea of using the DX engineering box along with the precut phase cables. While I am sure I can cut the cables, having them "factory done" eliminates any errors that I might add into the system.
Yes, I've heard of guys running the dummy load back to the shack. I'll pass on that as I'am a goodly ways down the road from the shack to the array. I see great minds think a like, as I already have a ten tec 300 watt dummy load lined up for the project.
I am sure already know, but DX Engineering purchased Comtec systems and now sells both. Wonder which one they recommend?!
Everyone:
I just put together the DX VE1 vertical. Had to do some field engineering to make it fit on the mounting pipe I already had in the ground. A few tries with the MFJ antenna analyzer shows the antenna is resonate at 7.150 with a resistance of 40 ohms, That's just about as good as I can expect according to the books I've read.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AB7E on June 9, 2009
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AC5UP,
How dense can you be? I clearly said "depending upon the actual phasing that comes out of the control box and the phasing lines, exactly a quarter wave may not be the optimum physical spacing anyway". Go back and reread my statement until you grasp it.
Optimum phasing and spacing are interrelated, and phasing is dependent upon both the control network and the phasing lines. If either are off the mark, the optimum spacing could easily be different that a quarter wavelength. How many different ways do I have to say that before you comprehend it?
All of which was to illustrate the idiocy of tearing up the existing support structures to move them a few inches as you encouraged the author to do ...
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AC5UP on June 9, 2009
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AB7E: Note that WB8VGE is now considering buying the pre-cut harness set. Not a bad idea as cutting one line to exact length is something of a challenge let alone four that match...
Which brings us back to this:
"Each side of the square must be 1/4-wavelength in free space at the desired operating frequency. For example, each side must be 64.7 ft for a center frequency of 3.800 MHz.
Note that the free space formula 246/f (MHz) is used for array spacing - not the more familiar 234/f (MHz) used for antenna element lengths, which takes element end effect into account.
Array spacing is important in providing the deepest rear null – commonly observed when checking the front-to-back ratio (F/B).
Found near the middle of Page 6 in
http://www.dxengineering.com/pdf/TFS-Rev3.pdf "
" Array spacing is important in providing the deepest rear null "
If the phasing lines are cut assuming 1/4 wave element spacing and that isn't exactly true, will the array perform as well as it could? Not likely, but it will still make Q's, and that's my point... How close enough is good enough? As stated earlier, if it were mine the supports would have been moved. On a project of this size and expense I'd insist the foundation of the array... The element spacing... Be as close as I could get it. Is that the sign of poor engineering?
BTW: 246 / 7.15 = 34.405 feet. 234 / 7.15 = 32.727 feet. That's a difference of 20.136 inches... Not "a few inches". Let's try to maintain some perspective, OM...
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by QRZDXR2 on June 9, 2009
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K9KEJ on June 8, 2009
K0OD--What's going on with you?
Why do you have to slam ZERO FIVE--"Tom's verticals", as you put it. Do you know the guy or the company, or do you just like to rant and rave--or are you on the payroll of another antenna company? I bought 4 ZERO Five Verticals and have had nothing but great success with each of them--despite your negative comments, snide remarks and ankle-biting attitude!
KEJ...
What I think OD was implying is that you don't need some expensive manufactured vert. One can save the money and make their own. (go figure)
Do you work for One of the antenna stores that promote store bought over home made SIMPLE antennas?
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AB7E on June 9, 2009
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AC5UP: "Let's try to maintain some perspective, OM... "
Exactly. That's where I have a major problem with your silly advice to WB8VGE.
You think he should dig up his vertical supports that have already been cast in concrete and move them 20 inches. Your reasoning initially was that, because of the minuscule fraction of a db difference it would cause, you would ... <quote> ... "know" that every time I didn't get a response from the first, second or third call it's because of the element spacing." You've later changed your rationale to front-to-back ratio, which is a desirable parameter to maximize but not going to affect his ability to be heard.
I ran some EZNEC plots to test out the affect on front-to-back ratio since that would have by far the greatest sensitivity to element spacing. I used vertical half-wave dipoles positioned five feet above average ground to avoid ground plane influences in the model, and I used only two elements to keep things simple. At 34.4' spacing 90 degrees phasing gave 30.7 db F/B at 7.15 MHz. At 32.7' spacing with 90 degree phasing the F/B dropped to 25.6 db (the difference in forward gain is negligible). At 32.7' spacing a phase shift of 96 degrees gives 29.4 db F/B ... a recovery to within one db of the F/B at 34.4'.
What do you think the odds are that the phasing system used by WB8VGE, even with a pre-cut harness, is going to be accurate to within 6 degrees? The controller and the feedpoint of the elements themselves have a strong influence on that. What do you think the odds are that all four of his verticals will have exactly the same feedpoint impedance? Have you ever put up four verticals and tried to make them look exactly the same electrically? I have with just two of them and it is very difficult. Any difference will be reflected in the relative phasing that the elements get.
Finally, what do you think the odds are that WB8VGE's verticals are actually going to be vertical within 20 inches of each other? Extremely slim, that's what.
Yes, good engineering would strive toward reasonable accuracy in initially setting the support structures, but good engineering says it is stupid to rip up the place to change them for 20 inches after the fact. Good engineering says consider the numbers and not irrational perceptions.
Dave AB7E
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A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by AB7E on June 9, 2009
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AB7E: "Any difference will be reflected in the relative phasing that the elements get."
I need to correct that statement in the case that the phasing lines are an electrical quarter wavelength. Phasing will be more or less independent of load in that situation.
Dave AB7E
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by K0OD on June 10, 2009
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"WB8VGE considering buying the pre-cut harness set. Not a bad idea as cutting one line to exact length is something of a challenge let alone four that match."
--
Ashamed to admit this, but I recently ordered two pre-made coax feedlines (about 30' each) from one of those popular "wire guys." I was lazy and I'm not the best at soldering connectors. Both cables arrived w-a-a-a-y off the mark. One was about 10% too long and the other was 25% too long... a significant problem for the cable's purpose.
----
Years ago I spent a ton of time attempting to cut four RG11 phasing lines precisely using test equipment. A 1/4 wave of coax even varied with the temperature. My wife caught me stuffing cable into our kitchen freezer, and then the oven for a test. (really big spaghetti!)
Finally settled for a ballpark effort. And the 4-square worked fine.
Later I made some short coax jumpers to add to the phasing lines. I wanted to see what another 4-8 inches of phasing line would do to the array's f/b. I could detect absolutely no difference with my field strength meter.
Like I said, 4-squares want to work.
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RE: A 40 Meter 4-Square Part One
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by GM4FAM on June 24, 2009
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I can't see any over the top criticism either! If someone cannot say that something is expensive without receiving pretty extreme responses then we are living in a sad world; I like responsible freedom of speech and K0OD had every right to voice his own opinion.
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