DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
from
W5MCT
on
July 20, 2009
Website:
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/43196
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Michael Cooney of NetworkWorld magazine has an article about a US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) project "...to help eliminate the dangerous and inefficient hodgepodge of communication and network technology used by emergency response personnel..."
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/43196
Is sounds like a single physical radio that can operate on a variety of frequencies using a variety of technologies. Apparently amateur radio bands and modes are NOT included. Some of the comments following the article lament the exclusion of amateur radio from this project, but my question is this:
Is the exclusion of amateur radio from the project a good thing or a bad thing?
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by NN4RH on July 20, 2009
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If the intent truly is "...to help eliminate the dangerous and inefficient hodgepodge of communication and network technology used by emergency response personnel..." then I don't see how throwing another layer of $6000 per unit technology at it is a viable solution.
Is there any good reason why Murray State University in Kentucky needs interoperability with the Boise Idaho fire department? I think it'd make more sense for Murray State University to be able to talk to the Murray Kentucky fire department. And with a little thought, that can be done locally, a lot less expensively than $6000 per HT.
As to the amateur band issue. If this is truly a "software defined radio" then it should be programmable to include the amateur bands.
But then the question comes up, how many licensed amateurs are going to spend $6000 on an HT? Zero!
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by NN4RH on July 20, 2009
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And there's really no reason why any of the first responders who would have these super-HTs would ever have a need to talk an an amateur, since they supposedly will be able to talk to everyone else already. Amateurs are not first responders themselves - at best they can only relay messages. And if everyone can already talk to everyone else, then there's no need to relay messages through amateurs.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N2EY on July 20, 2009
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NN4RH writes: "Is there any good reason why Murray State University in Kentucky needs interoperability with the Boise Idaho fire department?"
I think the idea behind it is this:
By having one standard radio, the cost-per-unit will (theroretically) be lower. More important, radios from anywhere can communicate with radios from anywhere else.
In cases of a serious regional emergency, radios and personnel from places far from the affected area could be sent into the emergency *knowing* that they can communicate with whatever they encounter.
---
As to the exclusion of amateurs - isn't it obvious that they really don't want volunteers and the general public directly involved?
I think our confidence in such agencies would be a lot higher if we didn't have the memories of Katrina and other fiascos.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W9OY on July 20, 2009
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It just points out what a fantasy all this "emergency preparedness" stuff really is.
Ever listen to a Sky Warn net?
Hey Mabel where is my Dayglo vest and my helmet with the rubber ducky and my GO KIT and my ARRL membership card?? I have to decode this top secret message...eat more ovaltine....
73 W9OY
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K8QV on July 20, 2009
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"Looking to help eliminate the dangerous and inefficient hodgepodge of communication and network technology used by emergency response personnel, . . ."
The idea is to make it easier for first-responder agencies to communicate directly with each other. Why would hams be involved?
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K1CJS on July 20, 2009
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Hams are NOT the primary communications medium that too many think it is. We do NOT belong in a first responder role any more than an ambulance driver belongs in an operating room.
It's high time there was some sanity returned to this HOBBY. Yes, we can assist and supplement, but to believe that we should be included in this DHS effort is just plain crazy. If you want to get that involved, get the training and the education and join one of the primary response agencies. Leave this HOBBY out of it!
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K9RFZ on July 20, 2009
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Rather than making this an opportunity for all the ARES/RACES bashers to come out of the woodwork and argue how their 'HOBBY' was never intended to serve the public good by providing communications support particularly during an emergency (maybe those paraphrased words sound familiar if you've ever read FCC Part 97 rules), I recommend considering the obvious reason why the new DHS multi-band radios don't include the amateur bands. You need a license to transmit on the amateur bands! Also, why would DHS go to the trouble of getting paid employees licensed when they can't use the amateur bands for day to day work and they can easily have a dedicated volunteer corps of amateurs who take seriously the obligation of their licenses to fill that need when it arises?
Joseph, K9RFZ
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K8YZK on July 20, 2009
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After 9/11 the different powers to be were shown that interoperatability was necessary from radio's used to what was said. We have all seen where DC/MD/VA emergency first responders had problems talking to each other during 9/11, and one thing that came out of it was using plain language instead of super secret codes, that were suppose to hide from John Q public what was being talked about. Unfortunately there are still places and ego hunger people who don't want anyone knowing what is being said.
Why not have a radio that is univerisal and useable in DC or Boise, and no you might not need to talk to either, but if responders are sent from DC to Boise, then they would know the operation of that radio and can get into action that more quickly, and help those that need it.
Ham can help out but being first responders, no way. H&W traffic should be the main area, to support the responders.
My opinion only, yours may and probably will vary.
73
Kurt
K8YZK
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KF4HR on July 20, 2009
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Government communications equipment incompatibility, not only for federal government but also state and county governments, has been a issue for many years now. Unfortunately, due to budget limitations (and numerous other reasons), it will continue to be an issue for many years to come.
My hat is off to DHS for their future attempts to bring about communications compatibility. But if they do pull it off, due to budget limitations, it will more than likely have to be a multi-year, probably multi-decade effort. And I would expect the equipment price tag for this effort is going to be astronomically huge over the long term.
And as with any long term financial technical effort, technology continues to move forward, so budgets for these types of activities have a tendency to "chase their tails". It's akin to cutting 300 acres of grass with one 20 inch wide push lawnmower. Before you reach the end, the grass has re-grown where you started. But the good news is, activities such as this create fantastic job security! :^))
And it is possible to create one radio to be able to meet all compatibility issues. But whether all agencies wish to use it, may be another matter altogether (politics).
As for the exclusion of amateur radio, that's neither good nor bad, it's just the way it is.
While some amateurs feel our hobby should be primarily centered around providing an Ecom element for the government, and enjoy feeling that their hobby has great government importance, the reality is, the FCC describes Amateur Radio Service as; "The amateur and amateur-satellite services are for qualified persons of any age who are interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest. These services present an opportunity for self-training, intercommunication, and technical investigations." Granted, Ecom is eventually discussed down in the weeds of Parts 97, but the priority of the verbiage should tell you something about how the federal government views our hobby.
I think it's great the amateur radio community helps out with Ecom when the need arises, but I seriously doubt the federal government is desperately counting on, or planning on, our hobby activities for that purpose.
KF4HR
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K1CJS on July 20, 2009
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I don't mean to imply we shouldn't be involved in the area of emergency communications at all, but our real place is taking the health and welfare and supplementary message responsibility off the first responders, not being in the middle of the communications efforts of the first responders. THAT is the reason we've not been included in the interoperability initiative.
We're not supposed to be on those frequencies any more than the first responders should be on the amateur frequencies. Unfortunately, there are some amateurs that feel otherwise--the ones who insist on changing ham radio into what it was never meant to be.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AI4ET on July 20, 2009
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Why in the world would any amateur radio operator want our frequencies included? If they were they wouldn't need us. They could commandeer our frequencies at will.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AI4WC on July 20, 2009
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K1CJS has stated it correctly twice. I suggest that we all read his comments before we pontificate endlessly. If the proposal of DHS makes us all more secure, then we should understand and cooperate (and help, if requested).
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W4VR on July 20, 2009
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Interoperability has been a problem in most disaster situations. It's about time our Gov't is doing something about it. It will be expensive, but it will be worth it in the end for the sake of safety and saving lives. For hams to participate in this project would be to costly unless funded in part by our Gov't, therefore very likely the reason for excluding amateur radio.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K5LXP on July 20, 2009
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K9RFZ wrote:
> dedicated volunteer corps of amateurs who take
> seriously the obligation of their licenses
§97.1 Basis and purpose.
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the
amateur service to the public as a voluntary
noncommercial communication service, particularly with
respect to providing emergency communications.
I don't see "obligation" anywhere in here.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KC5MIB on July 20, 2009
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This is not a new problem. This has been going on from day one. Interoperability, katrina, hmmm, Ike, hmmm, Columbia Shuttle accident! come on name your disaster and interoperabilty problems abound (DOD has them too, remember Grenada) Even inside State, County, City and Councils of Governments this problem has arisen. The solution, which DHS has so eloquently put together, is a single Standard, Hmmmmm can you say APCO 25? Yeah, I've been around this problem for 15+ years. I had to fight with it on an Air Force Base, which shall remain nameless. Will a single standard work, well sorta, as long as you keep commerce out of it. As soon as a mandate is made that ALL (emphasis mine) will meet this standard one or two of the other companies will complain that they are being shut out and they have "as good a product as everyone else does" and "it's more efficient"
Amateurs left out. We're not first responders, we ARE NOT firemen, we ARE NOT policemen, we ARE NOT forestry, etc. Now let me caveat that, I know there are a number of amateurs that are each of those, but when the problem occurs they come to the table as their job, NOT as a ham radio operator. We hams have the interoperability, have had it and do great things, but ours is not to be there first.
Let me get off my soapbox, this just makes me more irritated thinking about it.
John
KC5MIB
Former LMR Manager
GROL
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K0BG on July 20, 2009
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For a number of years, Wulfsberg Electronics (et. al.) have been supplying DC to daylight radios to the emergency services organizations. Unlike the DHS project, these radios typically operate on amateur radio frequencies.
The various first-responder departments who purchase them, often use their amateur radio capabilities to partially justify their exorbitant cost (especially since 9/11). A use which most likely didn't go (or hasn't gone) past their use in a SET exercise, if that.
They haven't aided, abetted, or enhanced the first responders efforts, whatever the disaster. This includes Katrina, Ike, the Columbia cleanup, or any other disaster, amateur radio operator organizations' opinions to the contrary, notwithstanding. In fact, it has been a detriment the majority of the time.
For many years, emergency organizations have had the capability to use one another's radio frequencies; a Wulfsberg selling point. Yet, it isn't the interoperability that's the stumbling block. It's the very primal instinct, which no matter what effect DHS has, it will never overcome. And that is, ego!
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N8KOM on July 20, 2009
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+1 for K5LXP and K1CJS.
Keep it real. If you have to stop to think, (or if it even crosses your mind) how you are going to explain why you are authorized or not authorized to transmit on a particular frequency, chances are, it is not an emergency. There is a difference between being IN an emergency situation and assisting WITH an emergency situation, the line seems to be blurred for some people.
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real communication problems
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by KJ4ADN on July 20, 2009
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Most of my family are HAMs.
We got into this hobby because we're also first responders CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) as we're called. There is NO NETWORK or even a single repeater for our communications, we depend on the good nature of fellow HAM's repeaters (2-3 of them) to relay information back and forth, simplex just doesn't work in this hilly terrain. Hence, we use 2m & 70cm HAM repeaters for our HTs (Yaesu FT-60).
My wife and 3 of my daughters (HAMs), also belong to
ASAR (Angel Search & Rescue), which is connected to the police (under their authority) - completely different radios / bands.
Two of the same daughters and two of my sons are members of CAP (Civil Air Patrol). They've been called upon for searches, and to provide mobile communications to fire fighters (from an airborne repeater). And, that's another set of radios / bands... even though it's the same group of guys they're assisting.
So, we're looking at 3 sets of radios that can't talk to eachother, unless they're illegally mod'ed.
But, the MOST avaliable and reliable communication "system", if I can call it that, is still the local HAM's 2m & 70cm repeaters. I'm not the one making the rules or passing judgement on what should be what - but from our perspective, we want to communicate as quickly and simply as possible, because lives are at stake. I thank God for the HAMs that put those repeaters where they did in our area, Mr. Manasco and
Mr. Roach - 'cause we'd be royally SCREWED without them!
As for all the politics and such, why do people make it so difficult for VOLUNTEERS...?!
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WMCO on July 20, 2009
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In a real emergency, NOBODY not even the first responders need a license to operate on ham radio bands it the FCC / FEMA decides that the frequencies are needed. The bands can be taken away from amateur use and given over to governmental use at the blink of an eye.
I just laugh at hams that think that the government and government agency need a "license" to transmit on ham bands during declared emergencies. During a real emergency your access will be secondary to none if needed and the governments access will be priority as soon as it seems necessary.
I can just see those morons trying to jam real emergency communications by government agencies on ham bands...because they have no license lol. can you spell federal prison?
John
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K6MGK on July 20, 2009
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I totaly agree with Kf4HR and K1CJS comments,
yes my hobby is a Ham radio operator, but when I go to work, my other hat is working for DOD for the better part of 35 years,
working in the related area.
Trust me when I say this new era of communications is long over due
and much needed for our government, not only the ease of operations
and communications but Security has been a driving force behind
this venture.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KD5UFQ on July 20, 2009
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No big deal to hams as far as I am concerned.
I think the bigger issue will be programming the things and knowing who to talk to, when, and which fancy channel/frequency to be on. Do you operate on the local first responder’s frequencies, the fed channels, a new set configured for this emergency, etc.
Also HF does not seem to be included. Personally I like the option of going long if need be to get comms out of a widespread disaster area. As an added benefit with an NVIS antenna you can talk locally too.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K9RFZ on July 20, 2009
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K5LXP;
What you also don't see in Part 97 is the word 'Hobby' associated with the amateur radio 'SERVICE'. Your amateur radio license is a privilege granted by the FCC for the basis and purposes specified in Part 97. Hobbyist operators who choose to ignore the responsibilities that come with that privilege should stop bashing the civic-minded operators who prepare and maintain readiness in case the first responders request our help.
Joseph, K9RFZ
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N3OX on July 20, 2009
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"Your amateur radio license is a privilege granted by the FCC for the basis and purposes specified in Part 97. Hobbyist operators who choose to ignore the responsibilities that come with that privilege should stop bashing"
We might look at *ALL* of the purposes of the amateur radio service, to get an idea of what "SERVICE" means:
- - - - - - -
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.
- - - - - - -
I can think of a lot of activities that do very little to advance the radio art or the technical prowess of the practitioners.
I can think of a lot of activities that do not have anything to do with expanding our numbers of technicians and electronics experts.
And while emergency communications can enhance international goodwill, generally speaking, it seems that usually it's hams in the country in question helping their fellow citizens.
Now I'm not going to claim that everyone has to do everything... being a trained and ready EMCOMM operator and hitting the "operating" and "operator" parts of a), c) and d) is a fine way to spend one's time.
But if we are to claim that part a) constitutes an obligation on the part of every individual ham, then it would be reasonable to claim that each and every purpose of the amateur radio service was, in fact, an "obligation" to all hams.
If you're not doing any of a) through e), ever, you might want to reconsider your standing as far as "obligations" of your license go, but I don't see anyone claiming strenuously that each and every ham has an obligation to be an electronics expert.
Someone wrote recently to complain that QST was too technical. Have you chastised that person for not fulfilling the obligations of their ham radio license?
73
Dan
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WI7B on July 20, 2009
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We already have $6,000 HT units...it's called APCO25 primarily from Motorola.
If we were REALLY CONCERNED about emergency interoperability, we would be using the TETRA standards and equipment that most of the world uses. And at a cost of ~$800 a unit. Far cheaper and more flexible the P25 stadrd we've been fed in the US.
"The TETRA system contains several mechanisms, designed into the protocols and radio parameters, to ensure communication success even during overload situations (e.g. during major public events or disaster situations), thus calls will ALWAYS get through unlike in cellular systems.
The system also supports a range of emergency calling modes. TETRA infrastructure is usually separate from (but connected to) that of the public-switched(mobile) phone networks, resulting in (normally) no call charges for the system owners, substantially more diverse and resilient communications and it is easy to customise and integrate with data applications (vehicle location, GIS databases, dispatch systems etc).
Unlike most cellular technologies, TETRA networks typically provide a number of fall-back modes such as the ability for a base station to process local calls. So called Mission Critical networks can be built with TETRA where all aspects are fail-safe/multiple-redundant.
In the absence of a network mobiles/portables can use 'direct mode' whereby they share channels directly (walkie-talkie mode).
Gateway mode - where a single mobile with connection to the network can act as a relay for other nearby mobiles that are out of range of the infrastructure.
TETRA also provides a point-to-point function that traditional analogue emergency services radio systems did not provide. This enables users to have a one-to-one trunked 'radio' link between sets without the need for the direct involvement of a control room operator/dispatcher.
Unlike the cellular technologies, which connect one subscriber to one other subscriber (one-to-one) then TETRA is built to do one-to-one, one-to-many and many-to-many. These operational modes are directly relevant to the public safety and professional users.
TETRA supports both air-interface encryption and End-to-end encryption. Rapid deployment (transportable) network solutions are available for disaster relief and temporary capacity provision. Equipment is available from many suppliers around the world, thus providing the benefits of competition..."
=> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_Trunked_Radio
73,
---* Ken
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N0YXB on July 20, 2009
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Amateur radio frequencies should be excluded. We don't need more public servants with access to ham radio frequencies (like the police in Indianapolis).
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K1DA on July 20, 2009
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The military has for years been trying to make "one
size fits all" everything from helmets to aircraft.
The last device to actually accomplish the goal was probably the KWM 2.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K5LXP on July 20, 2009
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K9RFZ wrote:
> don't see in Part 97 isthe word 'Hobby' associated with the
> amateur radio 'SERVICE'.
...
> operators who choose to ignore the responsibilities [to]
> prepare and maintain readiness
Nor do you see the word "service" associated with your "responsibilities". It says I can "enhance the value" of the service. Don't see any "obligation" or "responsibility" for anyone to *do anything*. To extrapolate that it's my "obligation" out of the Basis and Purpose to do Emcomm would mean everyone should also become an EE, so they can fulfil their "obligation" to advance the radio art.
> stop bashing the civic-minded operators who prepare and maintain
> readiness in case the first responders request our help.
I didn't bash anyone. Touchy, aren't we?
I'm having difficulty connecting the dots between the subject of this article, Homeland Security, and Amateur radio- noncommercial or emergency communications. How DHS conducts their communications is their business. I'm not aware DHS is one of our "served agencies". Hell, we have a hard enough time getting along with the Red Cross. DHS can play with their radios, we can play with ours, and it's probably for the benefit of both to keep them separate.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by NA4IT on July 20, 2009
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Well, here is something to think about. Just about all government ideas center around a one box do it all radio. And maybe that's fine in concept, but not in operations. So you have one box with every frequency known to man. You can talk on one at a time. What of you get a call on another frequency?
I have always thought a better solution for the government side of things would be one single frequency (simplex with tone) that would be used nationwide for ALL government agencies. The you finally have interoperability.
de NA4IT
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N9AOP on July 20, 2009
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Recently I had a chance to play with one of the Motorola HT's that does VHF and 700/800 trunking. Very nice unit and it will do the 2M ham band in addition to APCO-25. They also have one that does 2M, 70CM and 700/800 trunking. The price is in the $6000 range and it is a very useful tool for the agency that needs to cross communicate with various systems.
That being said, if you as a ham are involved with a public service agency, in an disaster if they wish you to communicate with different PD's and FD's they will issue you the proper equipment.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W1XZ on July 20, 2009
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"Your amateur radio license is a privilege granted by the FCC for the basis and purposes specified in Part 97. Hobbyist operators who choose to ignore the responsibilities that come with that privilege should stop bashing"
The only obligation or responsibility one has to the FCC or the amateur radio service is to be properly licensed and to obey the laws put forth in part 97.
Read all of part 97 and see how little it actually says about emergency communications.
Those of us who raise an eyebrow and roll our eyes up in our heads when EMCOMM gets mentioned have listened to how utterly ineffective organized emergency amateur communications is.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WI7B on July 20, 2009
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TETRA = $800 units with public-switch network capabilities and multi-network on-the-fly communicaiton.
APCO25 = $6,000 units same old same old...think Pontiac.
APCO25 is such a con. And its OUR taxes.
73,
---* Ken
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WD4HVA on July 20, 2009
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What makes you think that Amateur Radio is being excluded from the testing? This is an evaluation project to actually deploy some of the equipment and see how well it performs under field conditions. Before anyone starts complaining about "hams not being included" you need to know that several of the people involved with the Murray State University group are hams.
One of the items I'm sure they will be looking at is how frequency agile these units are but remember they are not designed for ham use. They are designed so that the incident commanders, fire chiefs, police commanders and others can have a radio that allows them to talk on multiple bands to analog or digital systems that they are working with. In a real emergency a ham operator assisting at an EOC might be handed one of these to use in helping coordinate first responders, response logistics or otherwise working with public safety officials. Or they might just be asked to read the manual and reprogram one for use by someone else or train a first responder in how to use one properly.
Remember Part 97? All to often people talking about Amateur radio involvement in projects like this stop at item §97.1 (a). For a project of this type please include (c) and (d). The first section of Part 97 says:
"§97.1 Basis and purpose.
The rules and regulations in this Part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill. "
Who knows? There may be a future report on this project or one similar to it in a ham magazine if the circumstances allow. These are prototypes being field tested - and they will be put through their paces. After the testing is completed you may be able to see how Amateur Radio operators were involved. Amateur involvement doesn't have to be just operating the equipment on the ham bands - in this case it will also be valuable as experienced and technically oriented operators who can coordinate, plan testing scenarios, evaluate, document and report on how the equipment performs in the field. The testing hasn't started yet so wait and see what happens before getting all stirred up about it.
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Excellent to be excluded
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by AI2IA on July 20, 2009
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Amateur radio does not need regimentation to be effective. It has already proven to be very effective when free and independent operators use their technical knowledge and skill in combination with their familiarity with local conditions to join with other hams to provide emergency communication.
Big civil government cannot be flexible and adaptable, or as fast to respond to each differing local situation. It is a mistake to rely on big government for personal safety, or even public safety in emergency situations.
The game they are playing is wooing government funding, and empire building with their organization charts. It is all politics, while local situations in national emergencies is no place for the impractical.
Steer clear of government entanglements.
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RE: Excellent to be excluded
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by KC8VWM on July 20, 2009
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Let us examine the term "service" as far as the FCC is concerned:
Family radio "service"
General mobile radio "service"
Private land mobile radio "service"
Low powered radio "service"
Citizen band radio "service"
multi use radio "service"
Medical implant communications "service"
Radio control radio "service"
Wireless medical telemetry "service"
.... and last but not least. (drum roll please)
Amateur radio "service"
So now you know what "service" means...
My Best,
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KA9DTZ on July 20, 2009
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This "hobby" thing has always bugged me. It's a shame the amateur service gets thrown into the category of "hobby" by so many. It was intended to be so much more. An opportunity for some to advance the art and for others to serve when needed. There are a few small segments of free spectrum out there for people to use with nothing expected in return but we have been granted a good size portion of the radio spectrum so we can advance, learn and become prepared to provide a service when called upon. Enjoy 99% of the time and serve 1%? It doesn't seem like much to ask but it does tend to ask more from a person than what they would put into a hobby.
I am part of ARES and RACES but only in the interest of organization and staying "in the loop". I have no desire to push my way to the front of an incident or to have blue lights on top of my vehicle. When I am needed, I will be called. When I am called, I will do my best to provide communications. I'm not a cop or a first responder and don't want to be... I am a ham... plain and simple.
I think hams serve an important role. On the other hand I don't much like the idea of getting every Tom, Dick and Ambulance driver licensed as a ham. It kind of defeats the strength of amateur radio. Anybody can key the mic on a pre-installed 2 meter rig but a ham should have an interest in how it all works and what to do when it doesn't. The current push to get everyone from hospital staff to sanitation workers licensed doesn't make much sense. Will those "casual" hams be prepared for the challenge of communicating? There is no magic in radios or frequencies. All the IS-xxx courses won't make a difference when a person doesn't have the basic interest and technical skills to keep it going... at least from the point of amateur radio's involvement.
Let the professionals handle it until they ask for help. If and when they do need help, try to be prepared to offer the assistance the amateur service was established, in part, to provide.
73, Greg
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KC8VWM on July 21, 2009
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It's a shame the amateur service gets thrown into the category of "hobby" by so many. It was intended to be so much more.
-----------
Well it's a hobby and not a "service" in terms of how some people may be misinterpreting it to be.
I mean, it's not like an average radio amateur can say they were involved in the "service" (like the military) or anything else like that.
The amateur radio "service" just means we are one of many other "services." End of story.
"Service" in this context means to imply the general public are served by the government with a a set of operating radio frequencies for such intended purposes.
In our case, we are hobbyists and experimenters. As such we engage in radio communications for the purpose of fulfilling an objective related to technical study, observation and investigation.
We are not "serving" anyone but ourselves and we are doing so for our own intended purposes. IE. The Amateur Radio Service is one of may "services" available to the public which is regulated by the FCC.
Now if what we do doesn't somehow meet the criteria of a "technical hobby" then please correct me if I am wrong...
Sincerely, I am not downgrading anything or anyone for that matter, but rather I am simply attempting to place things in it's proper perspective.
Public service is not to be confused with the amateur radio service. Not the same thing.
Thank you very much for any "service" anyone may have provided to the general community in the past however amateur radio is not intended as a public service and it never really was. It's just something some groups of people (including myself) have chosen to do at one time or another.
I DO wear a uniform and a badge these days but I find I have no desire to be a wannabe anything... Thing is, you quickly find out that everything doesn't appear to be that great nor are you "all that" after all at the end of the day when all things are said and done. I would actually prefer to be doing something else instead.
The "public service" picture is bigger than both of us and no one in the general public really cares about what you are doing anyways... It's just an expectation based on tax dollars spent. Taxpayers gauge performance on actual statistical results and not just on attempted or intended results.
So basically, anyone that does think amateur radio is more than a hobby is on a personal ego trip in my opinion. I think that's really the meat and potatoes of what we are talking about here here..
If you want to be involved in public service and want to wear a badge like I do, then please feel free to apply for the position. It seems many positions are currently available. But I must caution you, the hours suck and the pay and benefits could be a little better. It's not all what it's cracked up to be. You are more or less treated like a taxpayer funded trash collector.
Again, the volunteers do a great job and your efforts are recognized and greatly appreciated.
My Best,
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by G8KHS on July 21, 2009
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Kinda contentious the word hobby ;-)
73 de G8KHS John
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by NC4TB on July 21, 2009
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Did anyone stop to think that everyone who responds to an emergency doesn't need a radio? If everyone is communicating on the radio it doesn't seem like much work would be getting done. I can speak from experience with multi agency operations that the cost effective solution is to intermingle personnel from responding agencies with local personnel who have communication with control. And no, I have no interest in purchase of an ht that costs $6000,nor even $1000.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KI4LTX on July 21, 2009
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"It sounds like a single physical radio that can operate on a variety of frequencies using a variety of technologies. Apparently amateur radio bands and modes are NOT included."
Actual specification sheet: http://www.thalesliberty.com/media/datasheets/2046-liberty-web.pdf
Indicates full coverage of the following frequencies, among others:
136-174 MHz
380-520 MHz
Seems to me that there are two amateur bands within the capability of this radio. Red herring post, I think!
John
KI4LTX
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N9DG on July 21, 2009
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KC8VWM, an excellent post.
I really do hope that those reading it do understand the distinction between the word "service" in the context of the FCC regs, vs. the term "service" in the context of "serving" the public... All too often they seem to be viewed as being one and the same.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by NA7I on July 21, 2009
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Amazing that everyone here is missing the point. This new 'initiative' by DHS is just one more money-grubbing power grab and attempt to justify government growth. The presence or absence of Hams is irrelevant - but exclusion would certainly dovetail with the disgust with which all private enterprise is held by the Obama all-power-to-the government Statists. No doubt it is a result of the many directives circulated to all federal 'departments' to find ways to stretch power and inflate all costs.
This may strike some ostriches as a 'political' statement, but it is a lot closer to the truth than anything posted on here so far.
NA7I
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KA9DTZ on July 21, 2009
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It never ceases to amaze me how some will stumble across amateur radio and others peer in through the window for 20 or 30 years before taking the step but, upon entry, their opinion can summarize what amateur radio is and has been since it's conception.
It's easy to get hung up on the term "hobby". It's quite another to dismiss the contribution of those involved in this service. Although there are many "services" this one is set apart by the entrance requirements. We may be slipping but a signed application is still not enough to include you in the ranks. A five or six year tenure is still not enough of a qualification, in my opinion, to dismiss the efforts and abilities our nation has called upon over many decades. Without regard to what some think, the government did not grant the amateur community the resources it has with the intent of creating a hobby for some good old boys.
We may be the last people who get called but it happens again and again. An ego trip? I don't think so. Few people do what they do for free but hams have always done so when called upon in times where the paid professionals cannot effectively carry out the task. My badge? My license. My uniform? Blue jeans and t-shirt. My pay? Zero. My commitment? I am ready and willing if asked to help. I am simply one of many the government wanted in a trained pool of radio amateurs.
The point was made that many times there are more "communicators" than are necessary in turn creating a bigger problem. That is certainly not the time for the amateur community to be involved or in the way. The professionals are paid to do the job so let them do it. When they can no longer do it all by themselves, be prepared to help. Not a tough concept. I don't want a badge, a vest or a traffic flashlight. I will help to provide communications if asked.
Little good may come from fanning these flames yet the truth of the matter generally doesn't come from only one man's view. I don't want to attempt to discredit those who wear a uniform but I do recognize their limitations as I do my own. A cop isn't a lawyer, an EMT isn't a doctor and I'm not a public service professional but I do know something about communications so I may be able to help.
Oh... as for the original post... I have no interest in being included in interoperability.
73, Greg
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KC0SKI on July 21, 2009
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The Thales Liberty multiband mobile radio (MBR) frequency coverage of the first two bands (136-174 MHz and 380-520 MHz) overlaps the 2 meter and 70 centimeter bands in their entirety.
This probably was a consideration and is a smart move from the Governments point of view. Government Emergency Responders (GER) will have a cornucopia of 2 meter and 70 centimeter amateur radio repeaters (ARR) located throughout the country to access in support of an emergency response.
I would consider GERs negligent if a resource such as an ARR were not used during a time of emergency should no other repeater assets be available the GER can access.
Involving the amateur radio community in the politics of emergency response may not be such a good idea from the Governments point of view as this could/would add another layer of confusion during a time when confusion is the enemy. This arrangement does not preclude the amateur radio operator from assisting during the emergency response however, using the amateur radio operator as a primary communications resource during a Government emergency response is not a good planning strategy. Accessing and utilizing ARRs when no other repeater assets are available is.
73,
Kc0ski
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W1XZ on July 21, 2009
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KC8VWM is dead on. It is amazing how little some (most?) amateurs understand about what we are. Why are we even discussing or care about what radios the government buys its DHS and emergency workers?
We need to spend some time looking at the basis and purpose of our service:
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill. "
How well are we doing this? Well lets see. A. the whole emergency communications thing. Seems what I hear over the air on the various nets (and what else could emcomm be about other than over the air communications?) is pretty poor. Endless nets when no one checks in to handle traffic that isn't there. And when there is traffic the rate at which it is passed is so slow and so cumbersome it would probably be useless when it arrived.
B. Advancement of the radio art? With a tiny small fraction of one percent of our population advancing any radio art we aren't doing much here unless you think hooking cheap German audio processing to a poorly modified radio is advancement.
C. The FCC has pretty much done this in themselves. When all one has to do to get a ticket is memorize a bunch of question/answers that leaves one with no actual knowledge other than the answer itself there isn't much advancement going on.
D. Trained pools of electronics experts? Yes there are many there, but most are senior citizens who are fluent in 1940/1950's technology.
E. This one is possibly the one thing we can do best...well all of us who have HF radios or live near the Canadian or Mexican border so they can pass traffic to some one of our neighbors on their HT. Really though we can do this. Of course then there is the racist, sexist, crass conversations (broadcasts?) heard over the ether pretty much 24/7...24/7 is sort of my emcomm tie in phrase. But...14.275 and its sister frequencies never stop.
What do we need to do. We need to look really carefully at our service/hobby and ourselves and make some changes and choices. Part 97 is an outdated set of rules. It needs a total rethink/rewrite. We need a separate citizen emergency communication service. Give it the top half of 2 meters and let them go wild.
While I seem to carp on about these posts I am dead serious. Amateur radio as it is today will be no more in the very near future. If nothing changes, our relevance, and I mean to ourselves and others, will soon be history if it isn't already.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K1DA on July 21, 2009
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My state has ben a testbed, apparently, for the new "talk to everybody" Moto system which has been employed with "varying" success. Our local PD now has to rely on a repeater system in another town instead of having a base station at the PD where they take real good care of their emergency generator, for example. This stuff isn't real good at simplex, apparently. As many of the local departments have observed: "good thing we held on to our old analog stuff as a backup". We are told the "next generation" will have all the bugs out. That's OK, the "government" will pay for it all.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KE7FD on July 21, 2009
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I don't see this as a threat to Amateur Radio's usefulness during an emergency. While the Feds may very well rely principly on this new resource they are putting together, they are not known for their ability to make things work right, and certainly not at first. Anyone ever heard of FEMA?
Still, I would hope they could pull it together becasue after all, the role of government is to its citizens, and emergencies top the list of priorities. Nothing is perfect and owing to that fact Amateur Radio will always be needed.
IMHO,
Glen - KE7FD
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WA3SKN on July 21, 2009
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One reason that hams were not part of this is they were designing a digital encrypted format... as hams, we don't do "encryption". This is just a typical gov't "empire building" plan in action... Create your own standard.
But when the fancy radios don't work, they will bring in the old fashioned ham radios that will.
-Mike.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KD4LLA on July 21, 2009
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The Army and Air Force have had a ($6,000 HT) radio like this for the last couple of years. I do not know if it it field programmable or not. Would be nice to have, but the price will need to come down before I buy one. At least it will not be one of those mini/micro HT's that I cannot see the buttons on, more on the order of the old "brick" HT's.
Mike
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AB2NM on July 21, 2009
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Now this is pure heresy, but I'm going to say it anyway: technology is not the final answer. Two conditions must exist: Leadership and Training.
(Condition 1) Given the leadership of a cohesive, committed and consistent team, then
(Condition 2) personnel who have learned to communicate with accuracy, brevity and respect will always trump technology.
Consider this: we successfully managed the largest movement of armed forces in history (D-Day) with strong and united leadership, rudimentary communications equipment, and excellent communications protocols.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WA5FLV on July 21, 2009
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Exclusion of Amateur Radio from this is a very good thing for Amateur Radio.
Amateur Radio in service to the people. Not an "agency".
Improve our operating skills and guard our frequencies.
Be prepared to communicate in an emergency to another Amateur.
Continued use of our frequencies for security reasons will eventually lead to secondary status or worse.
These zero to light radios are a severe danger to Amateur Radio.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W3DCB on July 21, 2009
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WI7B...right on! I am not as eloquent as you. However, I thought that the technology already existed to provide the services that they are after. Further more, I did not think that multi-band or continuous spectrum HTs were anything all that new. So, why the cost? Further more, can't systems be linked fairly easily? A few well placed mobile, air-born, or fixed repeater systems could be easily linked when needed and the links disolved when not needed. How much planning and funding does that really entail? Each time I hear about this sort of thing, I always wonder why they just dont form a temporary link...of course the linking would need to be standardized. It could be easily done locally in the event of a local disaster or via internet linking on a wider scale. I just don't get it. Heck, I and a few friends could form a link between a couple of systems in a few hours without much notice. Am I wrong here? Take care guys...Daniel Baral (now W3DCB)
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K5WW on July 22, 2009
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Ah, DHS...
Always so full of fantastic ideas, those boys.
Such as: not letting me join RACES.
Reason: I'm not a US citizen. And thus considered unfit (or unsafe?) for duty.
Result: RACES, in this - very large - county? Non-existant...
Keep up the good work, DHS. Keep building walls, paying 6 kilobucks for an HT and stuff.
Hmmm, a Black Sabbath song comes to mind. Dang, I just can't remember the title...
Oh, wait! Para-something! Right? ;-)
Aloha,
K5WW
www.k5ww.com
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W2MRD on July 22, 2009
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Many "commercial" (public safety) single band radios now operate from 136-174 or (depending on the radio) 440-470, 430-470, 445-480, etc.
Older public safety radios often had a smaller bandsplits available as different models, i.e. 136-150, 150-174. But many of the radios available these days support the whole range instead of breaking it up.
There are quite a few hams who use commercial/public safety grade radios on the ham bands (some even using them for P25 digital audio). They are virtually immune to paging intermod and are very rugged. And if you are licensed for other public safety/commercial frequencies, they are fully type accepted in those bands.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K8QV on July 22, 2009
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"Reason: I'm not a US citizen. And thus considered unfit (or unsafe?) for duty."
Is there some reason you can't obtain citizenship? It's not out of line to require citizenship for functions in national security. It would appear that DHS does just that. Of course it seems pretty silly when applied to something like RACES or other such groups, but technically, DHS has to follow security protocol. If you want to be involved in what the government considers national security, you have to play by their rules. Nobody is stopping you from helping out in disasters if you want to. What disasters really call for is money, labor, water and food, with ham radio way down the list of needs.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K5WW on July 22, 2009
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>> Is there some reason you can't obtain citizenship?
Of course there is: I am not yet eligible. I just received (unconditional) permanent residency, after 2+ years of conditional residency.
Now follows another period in which I'll have to prove I would be a good citizen, after which I can apply for citizenship. That's the way it works. And I have no problems with that.
Still, I believe the RACES citizenship requirement, for someone who has the skills, is eager to help and whose help is very much wanted, is a bit over the top. And I can imagine there are others in my situation. We have been checked out numerous times by DHS, FBI and undoubtedly CIA. So what's the problem?
Ironically, MARS has no problems accepting me. Surely the military has similar or even higher security standards? Yet they waste no volunteer resources.
Oh well. If a tornado rips through the county I'll happily shovel debris; I've done it before. And let DHS give a radio to someone who's never seen nor operated one. Makes perfect sense...
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KI6ZRH on July 22, 2009
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Having spent 20+ years as a National Guardsman and having responded to floods, fires, earthquakes and other emergencies during that period, I can tell you that this is a serious problem. I think DHS is setting out to solve what has been a big problem in emergency management, and the concept of a software defined HT that can be easily programmed for universal interoperability is a noble goal. I think the exclusion of the ham bands is appropriate, because amateur involvement was meant to try to bring a universal communications system into use for emergencies. Strategically, I am not sure if this bodes well for the ham community's use of the spectrum it currently occupies, because one of the reasons for having the amateur spectrum available was for use in emergencies. Universal interoperability would mean that amateur emergency communications capability would no longer be needed, or at best would be redundant. However, standing in the way of progress is a futile strategy.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N2OBM on July 22, 2009
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Thales just renamed the military version of this radio to 'sound cool'. I just unpacked and conducted training on several hundred of the mil radios. They are, for the most part, software defined HTs.
Very impressive radios.
What would you like them to do? P25, freq hop, SATCOM, conventional FM, JTRS, AM, beacon...the list goes on.
Armed with these rigs, there are not too many people that DHS could not talk to. Field programming...'on the fly'...that might be a challenge. At least they bought a radio so flexible that they may not have to buy anymore for quite awhile. Hold it...did they do something right?
Google:
JTRS
AN/PRC-148
AN/PRC-152 (a Harris product; also Harris just bought MA/COM....merging of technologies...good stuff)
And not everyone can have a ACU-1000 to cross patch to another network or waveform.
All this chatter about 'spectrum inventories'...that is what you should keep your eyes on. The new radios are just the next step in technology.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by NB3O on July 22, 2009
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"Universal interoperability would mean that amateur emergency communications capability would no longer be needed"
Kinda like the day when we don't need toilet paper anymore?
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WD9FUM on July 22, 2009
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Doesn't make any difference anyway. The day is coming when amateur frequencies will be taken away. Then they'll knock on our doors and take our radios too.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W3VR on July 23, 2009
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"Excellent to be excluded Reply
by AI2IA on July 20, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
Amateur radio does not need regimentation to be effective."
Absolutely agreed.
"Big civil government cannot be flexible and adaptable, or as fast to respond to each differing local situation."
So true. An elephant might have plenty of power, but you got to get it moving first (if you can get it moving), and in the right direction.
"The game they are playing is wooing government funding, and empire building with their organization charts. It is all politics, while local situations in national emergencies is no place for the impractical."
Almost always to varying degrees. Those that can't see that, don't want to see it.
"Steer clear of government entanglements."
Sage advice Ray.
W3VR
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WA1RNE on July 23, 2009
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"Is sounds like a single physical radio that can operate on a variety of frequencies using a variety of technologies. Apparently amateur radio bands and modes are NOT included. Some of the comments following the article lament the exclusion of amateur radio from this project,......"
>>> Given the wideband capability of this system, it is unlikely MBR protype does not cover the 2M and 70CM amateur bands which are the primary bands used for RACES. The MBR fact sheet does show ham bands excluded because under their FCC licenses, public service officials are not authorized to operate on our bands.
*MBR Fact Sheet:
http://www.safecomprogram.gov./NR/rdonlyres/4FDBD872-5A33-443A-901E-2916CF26B0EC/0/MBRFactSheet_FINALDRAFT_41409.pdf
Secondly, this is ONE POTENTIAL SOLUTION under consideration. It is being evaluated by SAFECOM, the research arm of the DHS.
http://www.safecomprogram.gov./SAFECOM/currentprojects/default.htm
They have several projects underway, including APCO Project 25 which is pretty well known by most who are familiar with public service communications . However, it is another example of a set of standards which has not been accepted by all agencies.
*** However, this is a taste of what may be coming in the next 5 years or so and may make eventually make hams more obsolete since ** interoperability ** is the key to an efficient and truly high performance public service communications system.
Maybe if dawn shined on marble head, the ARRL might realize they are wasting valuable time and as the largest organization of amateurs, start putting significant time and effort into sponsoring projects that organize and better integrate ALL hams with Emergency Management officials.
But for now, don't let this magazine get you into too much of an uproar, it's just an FYI, but good to keep current with.....
>>> WA1RNE
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AC7ZL on July 23, 2009
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K1CJS:
The beginning of part 97 reads: "The rules and regulations in this Part are designed to provide an amateur radio service..." Note: Amateur radio SERVICE.
Part 97 spells out how the larger body of citizenry is expected to benefit from the activities of amateurs. This benefits include the advancement of the radio art, the development of greater numbers of technically proficient citizens, and the spreading of goodwill between ourselves and the other inhabitants of this planet. Number one on the list of expectations of the ham community: Providing emergency communications when needed. I don't see the word "hobby" anywhere in any of the text that follows.
Thus, with all due respect, I think *you're* the one who is mistaken about the purpose of our band privileges, and ironically, you are what you claim others to be, namely, someone who is guilty of "changing ham radio into what it was never meant to be." In short, it was never meant to be a "hobby."
Now, I will grant you that 99.99% of all QSOs carry nothing but "hobby" traffic, and that these activities are essentially "hobby" in nature. But I would strongly caution you and others against insisting on depicting our "service" privileges as a "hobby." Why?
Spectrum space is a limited resource, and one in high demand. The space allocated for amateur radio use is probably worth many millions of dollars, and it represents space that many commercial interests would give their eye-teeth to acquire.
One could easily make the argument that these bands would be far more productive in the hands of said commercial interests, and that there is nothing that a ham "hobbyist" does on the amateur bands that he couldn't do on FRS, CB, the Internet, or a cell phone.
Thus, if you insist on equating ham radio with collecting beanie-babies or quilting, be my guest. But be warned: If you convince enough of the wrong people that this is truly the case, you can kiss that spectrum space goodbye forever.
Final rhetorical comment: For some reason, over the years, the word "amateur" has become derogatory in nature. I'm not sure why this has become the case, because the word "amateur" really refers to someone who engages in an activity for the passion of it, as opposed to engaging in it for the purposes of gainful employment. It's too bad, really.
AC7ZL
>K1CJS
>
>It's high time there was some sanity returned to this
>HOBBY. Yes, we can assist and supplement, but to
>primary response agencies. Leave this HOBBY out of it!
>Unfortunately, there are some amateurs that feel
>otherwise--the ones who insist on changing ham radio
>into what it was never meant to be.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W6IRE on July 23, 2009
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Hams who long to participate in disaster communications are commonly known as Whackers. Whackers should always be viewed with great suspicion. DHS cannot benefit by communicating with Whackers. Whackers should stick to what they know best, impersonating police and making bogus traffic stops.
The purpose of ARES is to lure Whackers into identifying themselves on their nets so the rest of us can take note of just who the odd balls are in our community.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KC8RWR on July 23, 2009
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As a ham I think this is a non-issue. Police, Fire, etc... do not need access to the ham bands to get their jobs done. If anything giving them access to the ham bands could be a bad thing as they may choose to abuse the ham bands such as happened in Indianapolis. I do not think that the absence of ham band support will be a hindrance to ham's volunteer work as that has been going along quite well without it anyway.
As a taxpayer I do think these radios are an outrage! Why are they so expensive? Certainly it's not just for frequency coverage. How many ham radios are out there which can do the same thing or close to it at 1/10th of the price given the snip of a diode or a little reprogramming?
Maybe it's a case of a contractor gouging a government entity and the government entity not caring because it's just us taxpayers paying the bill anyway.
Or maybe it's licensing all the patented protocols. If so then I think this is a good example of why this country is WAY too dependent on licensing expensive proprietary protocols.
If they are replacing their radios anyway then it should be much less expensive to choose a single protocol and standardize on it. Even if they aren't planning to replace all the radios one could certainly replace quite a few single protocol radios for the price of one of these monstrosities.
Furthermore, I believe they should be choosing an open protocol. This way if they need to upgrade it later a multi-protocol backwards compatible radio can be built without piling on licensing fees to all the different patent holders. Likewise, any company could build compatible hardware and they would have to compete for our tax money.
There are probably open source protocols which would work already, Speex perhaps? If not then why not use the money which would have gone towards licensing fees to pay someone to create one? Once it was done, with out tax money it is our property.. thus open for all to use. That way we get twice the benefit from our tax dollars. It is our money afterall. I'd love to see them create an open protocol that could replace AMBE in D-Star.
Using an open protocol shouldn't be a security issue because even an open protocol can still use a private key for encryption.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K2ID on July 23, 2009
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I suspect that many may be mis-interpreting the meaning of the amateur service to mean that the amateur radio operator provides the service. It should be viewed as the FCC providing the service to be used much like the telephone service, bus service, etc. Certainly people who use telephones or ride buses are not providing the service.
Look up the definition of service and only one of the many means for someone to provide a service. In this case the FCC is the provider of the service by allowing the use of certain frequencies. The definition of service as is being used in many posts here seems inappropriate if you apply it to the CB Service, GMRS Service, etc.. Obviously service in this context does not imply that the users of CB radios or GMRS services are the ones providing the service. The service is provided by the government by giving hams the use of frequencies much like a local government will provide bus service.
Remember the amateur radio service is not a service offered by the ham operators but rather a service provided to ham radio operators by the FCC. That is my interpretation of the use of the word "Service" in the context of amateur radio. Used as many here use it would imply that the users of the business bands, citizens bands, etc. were providing services rather than benefiting from the services provided by the FCC. We are users of a service just like a CB radio operator like it or not. We are not the service. I work with a lot of government agencies that provide a service and the word service in all cases is not meant to mean that I provide the service but rather that the government agency provides the service that I work within.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W3VR on July 23, 2009
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"DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project Reply
by K2ID on July 23, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
I suspect that many may be mis-interpreting the meaning of the amateur service to mean that the amateur radio operator provides the service.....
The service is provided by the government by giving hams the use of frequencies much like a local government will provide bus service......
We are users of a service just like a CB radio operator like it or not. We are not the service....."
======================================================
I enjoy the ham radio hobby as much as anyone.
I don't agree with the "trumped-up" importance some place on it.
If there were any "glory days", they seem to be long gone.
Too bad folks just don't quit generating the controversy and enjoy what they have.
Take a look at this chart;
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf
See how much of that is allocated to ham radio.
Not much. Seems insignificant enough.
If the government wanted that insignificant amount of spectrum allocated to hams here in the states, seems like they would just take it, and they would have done it by now.
People should examine those vast expanses of spectrum allocated for other users exclusive to ham and see how dead some of that is. You might be suprised. Do that and then ask again why the FCC would like to take the few crumbs of spectrum alloted to ham radio.
All this "gnashing of teeth", and "pounding of chests" over the importance of ham radio outside of the users of ham radio is comical, but asinine.
True, Amateur Radio spectrum generates no significant capital for the U.S. Gov. at the present, but take a look at how little of it is allocated to ham anyway, and then tell us how those few crumbs would matter either way.
I don't see it a big deal one way or the other.
If there is hard black and white data to the contrary, it would be great if someone would present it so we can all know for sure whether or not the spectrum alloted to ham radio is really "the gold in them thar hills" the chest beaters, and teeth gnashers make it out to be.
W3VR
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Amateur bands ARE included
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by KN4AQ on July 23, 2009
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From this article: "Apparently amateur radio bands and modes are NOT included."
From the linked article: "The MBR prototype is capable of operating in the primary public safety bands between 136-174 megahertz (MHz) and 380-520 MHz..."
That includes the two-meter and 70-cm ham bands. I'm pretty sure it does FM. Maybe not D-STAR.
73,
Gary KN4AQ
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W5HTW on July 23, 2009
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Definitely a GOOD thing. Amateur radio is NOT a government agency radio service. Perhaps the exclusion shows they are finally awakening to the fact they actually have real professionals with real radios to do Homeland Security, and don't need a bunch of "hams."
I hope so! I'd like to see us go back to the days of amateur radio, instead of playing GI-Joe with our HTs.
Ed
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W5HTW on July 23, 2009
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by W1XZ on July 21, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM is dead on. e//Absolutely//
D. Trained pools of electronics experts? Yes there are many there, but most are senior citizens who are fluent in 1940/1950's technology.
//Again, true. Today's ham knows how to find the PTT button, and that's about all.//
Part 97 is an outdated set of rules.
//Again, very true. It barely relates at all to "today's amateur radio.//
. We need a separate citizen emergency communication service. Give it the top half of 2 meters and let them go wild.
//This should approached in a petition, and I hope someone who knows how to submit such petitions does so. I would like to see this EMCOM stuff moved to separate, non-ham, frequencies, like CAP and MARS. Let them buy type-approved radios (It's ok if they also operate in the ham bands) and do exactly as CAP does. Have their drills and tests away from the ham bands, and their 'real emergencies' as well. I think it is doable, perhaps just above two meters, at 148.xxx mhz. Both CAP and MARS have such repeaters outside two meters. Why can't this be done. Someone should draft the petition. Get this stuff out of the ham bands, and make REAL volunteers of these people, without the need to get a ham ticket. //
Getting hospitals, EMTs, cops, fire, highway crew members to obtain ham licenses, so they can use county owned or hospital owned ham stations, is destroying the hobby/service. IT is not intended as Public Safety Radio. There already IS a Public Safety Radio Service.
The money these hospitals and others are spending to install ham gear to be used by "forced labor hams" in their employement, could be spent on better PS systems that work. It's the same damned VHF frequencies. They don't need ham gear.
And anyone who is 'required' to get a ham ticket to do his or her job in public safety should refuse to do so, and complain to the FCC that he is being forced to use a ham license by his employer.
We need to wake up before ham radio becomes 100 percent "10-4, on scene" type of so-called conversation, with type approved equipment and no freedom to build, modify or use the radios except under strict PS rules.
We are NOT the "Public Service Auxilliary Radio Service."
Ed
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KC8VWM on July 24, 2009
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I agree with W5HTW.
If you want to "serve" then please do so...
Otherwise amateur radio is not the proper outlet for this purpose.
Nothing wrong with trying to help but if you feel the need to serve the public and wear a badge, then go ahead.. apply for the position. Nothing wrong with that...
Amateur radio is just that. It's not intended as a public service entity.
Public service IS intended as a public service entity..
Look, I have quite literally saved 100's of live and performed CPR and other life saving procedures on 100's of people in the past. Trust me.. It's not what it's cracked up to be.. Then again I have also seen 100's of human beings die in front of me while I have held their hand while staring directly into their eyes... I admit, I have probably seen and experienced things that most humans would not even want to imagine. It's not something you want to do.... really.
Please leave these things to the professionals. It's a war zone out there and you don't want to be a part of the reality.
It affects you as a human being.
Really...
My Best
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K1CJS on July 24, 2009
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AC7ZL,
A thoughtful reply. The stress put on the word hobby was not meant to imply that the amateur radio service was nothing but a hobby, but, as you yourself admit, that is what it is used for more than anything else. Amateur radio operators experimented and 'invented' quite a bit of useful procedures, equipment and ways to communicate, and are still doing so.
On the other hand, the idea that the amateur service --has to-- involve itself in emergency communications is absurd. Amateurs have traditionally helped out by passing messages in the aftermath of disasters and emergency situations, and have STEPPED ASIDE once other communications means were established and the regular means of communications were restored. That fact--that amateurs should step aside--is also referred to in the Part 97 regulations.
The references to 'what ham radio was never meant to be' was made because of the insistence of some individuals that ham radio stations should be set up and waiting solely for the purpose of emergency communications in the event of emergencies--AND THAT THESE STATIONS SHOULD BE USED THROUGHOUT AND BEYOND THE EMERGENCY EVEN AFTER OTHER MEANS OF COMMUNICATIONS HAVE BEEN RESTORED.
That is the idea that myself and other hams find so objectionable, and the reason that ham radio should be considered first a hobby, and secondly a means of emergency communications.
To the idea that the frequencies we are given to use are a valuable commodity, yes, in some instances. But the HF frequencies are not as much in demand as the VHF and UHF frequencies are. International law and allocations are also in place for amateur use, a fact glossed over by many who say that the amateur frequencies can be 'sold off' to the highest bidder. Again, that is true about the UHF and to a lesser extent, the VHF frequencies, but the FCC would have a hard time doing so for the HF frequencies.
In short, there is room for both uses of amateur radio. The view that it's primary use is to be for emergency communications, however, just so much propaganda being pushed by individuals who are either misguided or are looking to advance their own personal agenda or the agenda of a group who have something to gain--and a lot to lose if that idea isn't pushed for all its worth.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AE6RO on July 24, 2009
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Two things: Whatever can go wrong will go wrong (Murphy's Law) and Keep it simple, stupid (KISS).
Seems to me that in a stressful situation like a disaster, the more complicated and hard-to-use the radio, the more mistakes and more will die.
No worries, later on "solve it" by throwing more taxpayer money at it. 73, John
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AC7ZL on July 24, 2009
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Fair enough. Thanks for your clarification.
73,
Pete
>K1CJS said this and more: (snipped for brevity)
>
>In short, there is room for both uses of amateur radio.
>The view that it's primary use is to be for emergency
>communications, however,
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KG4RRN on July 24, 2009
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Uncle Riley, PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS !!!
I was into this hobby (read H O B B Y) shortly after Sept 11th, 2001, because I saw all of the pitfalls of differing radio systems and thought, gee, if some Fed needs to use my radio and his doesn't work, I can get the message through...what a concept?
I soon joined Fairfax County ARES and the Virginia RACES Inc. back when some Italian ancestor named Amato ran it.
Did you know someone turned him into the FCC for having 18 club call licenses at various Hospitals in Southern VA??? and did you know that he was the trustee of all of them? And After a year, the FCC let him keep them all ? And did you know that Pentagon Officers and CIA employees and state and local government workers got a ham license and all of sudden, gee we are getting 2 million dollars for interoperable radios, cases, antennas and coax, which the radios are still sitting in the case-- and have maybe been used once or twice???
In 2007 I was on a Federal Exercise in the county EOC with a elderly ARES member when the Shift supervisor burst into the room, and demanded to know what we were doing there? (We had our ARES badges on too !)
We attended the "briefing" for the exercise at the County Gov't Center, and the woman behind the counter asked us "were we a player??"
I asked where the craps table was...hahahahha
I also supported Marine Corp Marathons over a period of 6 years, which I am very proud of (getting up at 0430 and not getting home till 1800 that day and had a
fellow ham who was in control of the rest stop station
announce that he had contacted Croatia on his super dooper crank up tower, which was on his trailer at the Pentagon.
I also went to the re-commisisioning of the National Weather Service Office in Sterling Va where a stout looking Fire Employee showed me the inside of the Loudoun County COmmunications Road Warrior RV and told me in no uncertain terms that he could talk to me and patch it though his radio system (a V82 ICOM)VHF...
In my total experience with all of this I am no longer welcomed by any emergency group because according to Dave Jordan,WA3GIN, chief computer security officer for Arlington, VA I am not RACES material.
(RACES in Arlington is made up of FIRST RESPONDERS,
who play ham radio) TRUE !!!
Let me tell Dave something: I gained access into the Press area on Sept 12th 2001 at the Pentagon and walked around the press area for hours. I was then with a cable access station out in Herndon, Va. Channel 23 on Cox cable, I had interviewed two newspaper reporters who came up from Richmond for a story, I then rode a bicycle down to National Airport,which was shut down at the time, and rode over to Georgetown through DC and back to Arlington with Humvees parked in the streets and soldiers patrolling the government buildings, so don't tell me, a former National Guradsman that I am not RACES material. I am tired of it all... its too much B.S. I have my FEMA ICS certifications, I have my participation certificates,
and was booted form Fairfax ARES because I dared question a AEC about why a Hosptial comm plan is 60 pages long???
I ask you for one thing, do not believe these car salemen when they come knocking on your EOC door telling you that you can talk to everyone, when and where you need to, its all fiction. They got rid of all of the analog freqs here for police and fire because of 9-11 and have APC0 25 now with 15 digital repeaters, they have all of the communciations they need.
Amateur radio is not going to fill the rf hole when that whole system has a single point of failure.
It's called the computer.
Does all of this make you wonder what a whacky world we hams live in???
Anyway, we still have NTS and digital packet modes and D-STAR to talk to the HIPPA crowd-- when all else fails, including thier multi-million dollar radios which unfortunately we taxpayers footed the bill for, we can't hear, unless we buy $500 dollar APCO scanners, which the terrorists probably already have, and 3 of the Fairfax County ARES VHF/UHF repeaters are not working today.
When will the wannabees stop the madness !!!!
Sometimes the old ways work the best.
I was being held to a higher standard than a county dispatcher and I was de-volunteered and deleted overnight, because of someone who once worked at the CIA and was in ARES told a big LIE about something I said on a website reflector, and I told them how I wanted to settle that jokingly, and they didn't get it...Oh well...No more exercises for me.....I might join the half shirt brigade soon !
The federal government already has control of our frequencies, and they can use them anytime they want.
Seventy Three-- Seventy Three---you can go back to sleep now...
Q R ZED????
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AE6RO on July 24, 2009
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Well I was watching this PBS TV show last night (23 July '09) about Sputnik. Remember that?
All it did was travel around the Earth going "beep-beep-beep". The show's narrator was quick to point out that Sputnik the first artificial satellite, or "fellow traveler," tovarich, need do nothing else.
Because the radio amateurs, he said ominously, would be listening for it anyway.
When "they" needed us "we" ( I was small baby in October 1957) were the good guys but now we are just so much junk. NOW you can go back to sleep 73, John
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AE6RO on July 24, 2009
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I notice this wunderradio doesn't cover the high frequencies. This is because "they" know that there will be no more propagation because Solar Cycle 24 is a no-show. 73, John
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AD5PE on July 25, 2009
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There are two issues that everyone "forgets" when it comes to interop.
1. There are reasons why certain bands/modes are better in some situations and terrible in others. WE all know that VHF is line of sight, that UHF penetrates buildings better, that "low band" (6m to us, 42MHz to them) gives you some over the horizon compared to VHF-hi (2m to us, 155MHz to them), etc. The big issue these agencies face today is the rural deparments can't talk to the big city BECAUSE for the rural dept. VHF works better and for the city 460MHz or 800MHz works better.
DHS's proposal is to "fix" this problem by having a radio that works on "all" bands - note that by all they mean from about 40MHz up to 1.2GHz or so. The really mean all public service and government bands.
2. - and this is the REALLY big reason why a 40MHz and up radio is of no use and a $6000 a copy boondoggle - The real reason agencies can't talk to each other is that they aren't on "speaking terms" with each other. I have been places where the "city" fire department won't talk to their "next door neighbor" volunteer fire department, just because they're volunteer. And in that same town, the city fire department wouldn't talk to the city police, because the chiefs had gotten into a shouting match over who was "in charge" at a traffic accident involving a hazmat carrier - 15 years earlier!
$6000 radios aren't going to do ANYTHING for THAT ego problem.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K1CJS on July 25, 2009
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AC7ZL said,
Fair enough. Thanks for your clarification.
73, Pete
No problem, Pete--looking back on my first post, I can see that it did look a little one sided. Thanks for letting me see that.
73, Chris
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WA2JJH on July 25, 2009
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Whatever...once you send that check to the IRS
NYC is slowly solving its communications problems. Many of the Police, fire and other services had their repeater antennas on the roof of WTC.
However, they are loooking into cross-linking repeaters.
Next time(hope therre is not a next time) police, fire,EMS, FEMA and everybody else will not reach critical mass. It sure did on 9/11.
Hams actually were a huge asset. We had they only the only repeaters working. Leason is simple...do not put all eggs in one basket.
We were happy to Carry emergency traffic.
There has never been a multiband H-T that was mass produced for the public safety or commdrcial use that I know of.
Motorola threw up their hands at their attemps at a multiband UHF/VHF H-T. IMOD, rf isolation, and perhaps the simple fact is the antenna jack having to use isolators and circulators.
We found during 9/11, that H-Ts were limited. Mobile 2M/440 rigs were the most helpfull. Again, I do not think a multiband H-t to make commercial specs is anything on a drawing board.at motorola.
Perhaps the lax standards on multiband Ham H-Ts were a benifit that one day.
However, microwave crosslinks are springing up. The idea is just to cross link the various agencies repeaters. They put one up in one building and a famous actor threatened to sue. His Penhouse was 30 feet away from one of the dishes.
Meanwhile his cellular phone is glued to his head. They had to get an RF engineer to explain fields and wave theorem(highly simplified!!)
The actor dude had a hard time being convinced that the ERP, high gain/directionality of the dish 40 feet away was far safer than his cell phone!!!!!!
Bottom line is that all emergency personel have to have it together.
Cross linking existing repeaters with microwave links makes the moat sense. Extra Imod helps nobody.
Of course hams on a as per needed backup is a tradition that must be always in mind..
On 9/11, Hams were the invisiable heros. cell phones were useless that day because of overloading and some major cells lost power in downtown manhattan as well aa other problems.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W4CNG on July 25, 2009
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If you want to know what frequency, mode, NAC, and PL Tone they will be using if they deploy into your neighborhood, go get this 2M PDF file. It is public knowledge on the internet.
www.npstc.org/documents/NIFOG%20v1.2%204-14-2008.pdf
Steve W4CNG, already programmed into my 150 and 450 Astro Saber III's with P25.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by VK4DGG on July 25, 2009
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In my experience dealing with several hurricane emergencies, the communication problems that arise are primarily due to loss of infrastructure. Communications that rely on the internet, electrical power service, fixed repeaters are subject to failure and are unreliable for the first few days at least. What makes Hams so effective in these situations is in most cases they show up with their infrastructure intact because they brought it with them in their boxes and backpacks. They already know how to communicate, training time is usually limited to 15 or 20 minutes to explain what they need to send to which agency through another Ham. Hams around the world have demonstrated this innumerable times with great effectiveness. Trying to put everyone on the same radio is a good idea, but only if the equipment can operate stand alone for at least three or four days till some infrastructure becomes available. If my memory serves me, Hurricane Floyd in North Carolina caused such widespread infrastructure damage in rural areas and persistent flood waters resulted in some Hams providing communications for almost six weeks.
Mark
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K7SGJ on July 26, 2009
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Is it a good thing or bad thing? I think is is a non thing. After having been a ham for close to 50 years, having run emergeny traffic in years past, I can tell you first hand, hams are not as "emergency necessary" as they once were. They probably never will be again. Ever. Get over it.
Emergency equipment, proceedures, communications, and personell have grown in numbers and efficeny to the point that yesterdays emergency is now just an inconvenience.
As was previously posted, if you want to participate, join up. Become one of the public service professionals. If not, get out of the way. Stay home. Watch it on TV. Except for the most dire of situations, they can handle it.
If the professional community can't get it done with their resources, they will look outside for help.
As always, if we are needed, we will be asked. And as always, we will respond.
eddie
K7SGJ
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by AC2K on July 27, 2009
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The State of Washington is helping facilitate a pilot project of multiband portable radios in the Blaine/Bellingham area. These radios do not include amateur frequencies.
Many public safety agencies believe that they can utilize amateur radio equipment, operated by non-licensed personnel, to suppliment their day-to-day communications systems even though usage of amateur frequencies and equipment in that manner is clearly a violation of the F.C.C. Rules and Regulations. So, it is probably better that the amateur frequencies not be included in coverage of the these new radios.
While we want to insure that interoperable communications between licensed amateurs and public safety agencies can happen, the links need to be managed and established as needed.
Alan Komenski - AC2K
Washington State Interoperability Coordinator
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KF6QNZ on July 28, 2009
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Greetings from the Sandbox!
In response to KD4LLA's comment about the Army and Air Force's HT....
It's true, the Army has the MBITR (Multi Band Intra Team Radio) officially known as the PRC-148 (B, C and D versions are out, although they call the D Version the GEM, no idea what the acronym stands for). This radio is capable of 30-512MHZ, Variable bandwidth narrowband, wideband, and AM capabilities. NSA Approved CCI (Controlled Cryptographic Item) that is capable of loading and holding military commo crypto for secure communications up to and including Secret level (possibly higher with higher level crypto, I would need to break out my TM). It's also capable of TacSat capability, and they claim it will be Project 25 capable soon with just a software upgrade (the versions we have aren't). It's capable of doing CTCSS encode and decode, 255 channel capacity (16 channels across 16 groups), distress beacon capability.
Haven't found out if it can do DCS yet, although I am trying to convince my commo support guys that they can cut down on the number of radios leaders need to carry if they just get on the ball and cross program the MBITRs with the freqs and tones of all those other radios.
I'm not a Thales salesman, I'm just a combat medic who doesn't care who makes the equipment as long as it works as advertised.
KF6QNZ (Expired, I'm stationed overseas and deployed, and had a little problem filing the renewal paperwork on time)
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K9CTB on July 29, 2009
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A few others have said it: If you want to be a player, get the appropriate training and get in the game ... Then, Uncle Sam will give you a $6000 HT! OTOH, we don't all have police radios in, or cherries and berries on our cars, yet if one of us came upon a police officer involved in an accident, would we not stop and help? The term "first responder" is a very open term indeed. There will always be a need and a place for amateur radio. We simply need to know that place.
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N9NWO on July 31, 2009
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This is not a big deal. Motorola currently has a multi band rather (800 plus the 150 police band) as does Harris. This allowes public safety folks to use their old frequencies if the trunking system goes down.
The military has been using multi band radios for at least 15 years. Thales produced the PRC-148 handheld which covers 30 to 512 Mhz to include SINGCARS, MIL aircraft and Sat frequencies. This radio is being replaced by the Harris AN/PRC-152 handheld which covers the same bands. Both radios cost $7000. The backpackable/mobile radio is the Harris PRC-117F which covers 30 - 512 Mhz and is being replaced by the PRC-117G which covers 30 to 3000 Mhz (to include sat coverage). HF (3-30) is done by the Harris PRC-150 which also does ALE.
Both the PRC-117F/G and the PRC-150 fit into the vehicle mounts used by the old SINGCARS radios. The PRC-152 has a vehicle amp/charger that fits into the same mount and holds two handhelds.
BTW, the Thales radio you mentioned does cover the 2m ham frequencies. So I do not know what you are whining about.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KB2CPW on July 31, 2009
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Well, here we are 8 years after 9-11 and there has been very little change to bring every agency onto the same page as far as communications go. In fact, the only organized thing in communications IS amateur radio.
My agency has been in dire need of more frequencies and interoperability and being in NYC you would have thought this would have been priority number 1.
Anyway, a rep from NYPD came by and removed an old Saber from the place. We used it every day and now we have nothing.
DHS is a farce. Go to Federal plaza and see how many vehicles are labeled DHS. Why don't they just paint a bulls eye on the cars. Plus they just sit there taking up space. The last time I spoke to someone from DHS had to be 3-4 years ago, really in touch with the local agencies.. Get rid of them, the FBI and IRS.. A total waste of taxpayer monies..
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by KD0ANL on August 1, 2009
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> Ever listen to a Sky Warn net?
Thanks for the chuckle...
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by NY4DX on August 3, 2009
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Amateur Radio is a Hobby. Nothing more. Now, I'm wondering if repeater owners have either sold or somehow leased their repeater equipment to agencies like the Red Cross???? Anyone know for sure? Is their involvement now a tax write-off for ham radio gear?
Hams can best handle health and welfare messages only. Let them handle traffic to let Auntie Emm know Dorthy is safe and back in Kansas. Ham operators should not think they will handle real emergency traffic nor be the "heroes" that come through with HT's in hand. When all else fails...give me a break. It's nice that ARES/RACES goes as far to let racing judges know bike riders have passed a check point but that's where the involvement should end. For fun listen when "Skywarn" is activated, enough said.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WA2JJH on August 7, 2009
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Yes,I know Harris and Racal make DC- daylight rigs.
The price are high. With Transportable equipment you can covr any band/mode.
I was refering to commercial H-T's. The specs for IMOD and adjacent channel rejction makes multiband H-Ts for FCC Type acceptance scrarce or EXPENSIVE.
My point was do not look for a 30-500 mhz h-T to mak pub lic safty specs.
I was not aware of comb o 150mhz/800 trunking H-T.
Then again, I have btter things to do.
The cross link solution has the Green light in IMOD dense NYC. No multiple band radio's.....yet
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by N4CQR on August 8, 2009
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Sounds like you have your SkyWarn roll down real well. Keep practicing!
W9OY on July 20, 2009
Ever listen to a Sky Warn net?
Hey Mabel where is my Dayglo vest and my helmet with the rubber ducky and my GO KIT and my ARRL membership card?? I have to decode this top secret message...eat more ovaltine....
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WA2JJH on August 9, 2009
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<<<<<W9OY on July 20, 2009
Ever listen to a Sky Warn net?
Hey Mabel where is my Dayglo vest and my helmet with the rubber ducky and my GO KIT and my ARRL membership card?? I have to decode this top secret message...eat>>>
LMAO, ROTFL, ALL TOO FUNNY AND TRUE!!!
You forgot a few items.
The DORK DELUXE CALL SIGN HAT with solar powered head fan, ketchep stains, antenna array, and the boger/nose pearls collection around the rim of the hat!!!!
Be funny as heck if Norman Rockwell were alive to paint that piece of americana!!
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WA2JJH on August 9, 2009
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One a seroius note.
9/11/2001
a few hams like my self live within walking distance of the salvation army WTC, St Vincints hospital and other emergency muster locals.
I was very quick to sign up at the salvation army HQ.
I was given my time slots to serve.
The head hocho, a ham, admitted to me that they had more hams than needed. Many(god bless you all)came in from hudreds of miles away!!!!!!!
Hams that had DC-dAYLIGHT rig mobiles were in highest demand.
It was made clear if your radio or car got FUBARED, you were S.O.l. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.
The head honco gave me a dispatcher slot. He told me to be monitoring my handheld or cellphone when to come in.
2 days later, he admitted to me why I was not called in.
His story was...so many from other states got assigned first. Bottom line was......I did not own a car with a mobile rig in it.
They really wanted equipment, not people. The dude thank me. He said a huge investigation was luanched to why people that signed up early and lived in NYC were the last to be called to serve.
I had first aid/cpr/BLS CERTIFICATION. The honco said the computer screwed up.
Many with medical and other skills that lived in NYC
also were left waiting, while people from other states served first!
Seems to me, logistics are far more important than a 6 band H-T!!!!!!!!!
I am not being petty. I did other needed volenteer work. NO HAM TICKET REQUIRED!!!!!!!
Perhaps the powers to be thaught hams that lived very near the WTC site, would be too instable. I lost 3 friends that horrible day.
Nuff said. I always get very hatefull everytime around 9/11. Just had to vent. SRI
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DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by K1CRU on August 13, 2009
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The Liberty radio from Thales is a Software Defined Radio (SDR) targeted to first responders. It operates in the 136-174, 380-520, and 763-869 Mhz bands as either an analog or P25 digital modulation radio. It has AES encryption and P25 trunking capability. I don't think amateurs were included in the trial, because it was meant to show interoperability between first responder organizations. This radio is a handheld. To my knowledge there's no mobile/base/repeater version as yet, and it's still pricey (around $5K a copy).
Obviously the reason ARES/RACES is necessary is that there has been a "hodge-podge" of first responder radios in the various VHF & UHF public safety bands. This has been proliferated over the years by the various Land Mobile Radio manufacturers to ensure market share. After 9/11, a bunch of organizations said "enough"...we want interoperability! As more of these radios are deployed, the prices will come down, and the hodge-podge days will be over. Along with this will have to be FCC regulation changes to allow various first responder organizations to communicate on multiple frequencies/bands. This may take longer than the technical changes do.I don't know how long this will all take, but rest assured, it will happen. The days of amateur radio as backup communications means may be numbered!
Frank K1CRU
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by WD4HVA on August 14, 2009
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If you were handed several of these radios, what kinds of testing program would you put them through? Instead of just complaining about the project you can participate! Use your expertise to suggest specific tests, scenarios and performance factors that you think are important for equipment that will be used by first responders or EOC people who aren't radio experts. In this exercise it's your chance to be the radio experts and actually contribute. Hams aren't being excluded - in fact you are being asked to help determine what should be considered.
I can assure you that people from DHS, Thales and several of the groups that will be doing the testing are reading this thread. You are invited to make a positive contribution to this project!
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RE: Excellent to be excluded
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by K4YZ on August 17, 2009
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And again the rif-RAF impresses himself with a meaningless one-liner.
That this radio does not include coverage of the ARS is as equally meaningless. These radios were meant to be in the hands of 'users' who have no more clue about how/what/when/where of 'radio' use other than push this button to talk, let go to receive.
I'd rather have the functionality and utility of an ARS intended transceiver than one that only allows you to do what is programmed into it. Less hardware to carry around and greater adaptibility to a fluid incident.
73
Steve, K4YZ
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RE: Excellent to be excluded
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by W3VR on August 17, 2009
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"RE: Excellent to be excluded Reply
by K4YZ on August 17, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
.......... 'users' who have no more clue about how/what/when/where of 'radio' use other than push this button to talk, let go to receive."
=====================================================
Right....
Inclusive also of the whiners and crybabies too lazy to read their equipment manuals, and complain in the internet forums when they are admonished for being totally clueless, and asking asinine questions.
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RE: DHS: Ambitious Multi-Band Radio Project
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by W7LV on August 21, 2009
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As a Responder for DOT assets to NOLA for KATRINA, interoperability for my activity consisted of my wearing a photographer's/fisherman's vest with pockets full of cell phone(s) for various networks, two different types of SATphone, a marine VHF HT, an ICOM A-10 and a DOD HT the nomenclature of which escapes me at this moment.
I accompanied a federal agency honcho who bunked aboard a MARAD ship 12-18 hours per day. He'd say, "Get XXXX on the horn," I'd determine which service and device made that possible and Made It Happen.
We didn't need no steenking APCO25 bricks...just the Mark I Human Brain.
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