Don't Knock It!

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Don't Knock It!

Jim Phillips (AB2CD) on September 10, 2009
View comments about this article!

Don't knock it!

Long before computers, cell phones, Ipods and such; there were hams. Although the term wasn't used yet, we were electronics geeks; building all sorts of radio kits and projects. We were tinkers, following in the grand tradition of Marconi, Faraday, Tesla, Armstrong and the like. Radio adventures as we were, experimenting and pushing the communications envelope.

But has this changed? I feel to some extent it has and I am not sure why. Although I can appreciate the nostalgia or bringing back to life old gear and operating a vintage station, I am at odds with those who show little interest in, and worse yet, knock equipment that doesn't use tubes and more recently, knobs. I am of course speaking about software defined radios.

I recently upgraded my station by replacing an Icom 756 Pro with a Flex 5000A. While on the air, I get great reports. It's hard not to rave about this awesome piece of communication equipment. Yes my contacts have heard of SDRs and will readily admit to talking with many hams that use them, but often they come back with comments like “I want to operate a “real radio” with knobs” and “I want to talk on a radio and not on a computer”. What's so amazing is that many of these stations have computers sitting nearby their knob radios. They will also agree that most modern rigs have at least one, if not several microprocessors running their radios.

So may I suggest before knocking a SDR radio like the Flex, you try one first. You are likely to know someone in your area who has one. Most Flexers (as they call themselves) will be very happy to show you their Flex and let you operate it. Once you operate a Flex, I feel you will agree that even the most expensive knob radios are Neanderthal by comparison. You don't have to be a computer wiz either. I certainly am not and have no problem with this beautiful piece of radio equipment.

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Don't Knock It!

by N2RRA on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

With All Due Respect!

This seems like an ad for Flex radio!

Every SDR I've heard such as the Flex 5000 there is a particular sound that emerges from the edges of it's low and high's transmit audio. This is referred to as "tearing" or "distortion". I hate it! It's not terribly bad ,but it's without a doubt there and many know what I'm talking about.

It does have some very advanced features, but for me if monitor goes dead it's dead. You have to buy a new computer over time the more complex the upgrade programming. Let alone once you buy a Flex you essentially have to buy a more powerful computer before it arrives to run it if your running an old computer.

To deploy for field day, portable, or emergencies you'll need a monitor and computer. Come on!

All though it is quite the advanced technology and yes! it's cool to DVR 190 Khz of band space and replay it back it's still not for me. It's still something new and cool to try.

Just my opinion!

73's!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I hope this just doesn't come back to a knob vs no knob discussion, so at the outset let me state frankly there are at least 5 knobs available to run the Flex software. The most deluxe knob is from Woodbox Radio. THEREFORE the "knob" issue is a non issue or at most a straw man argument.

The Flex radio is not talking on a computer. It is a radio that uses software deployed on a standard computer as its digital signal processor (DSP). As such its DSP power is limited by the horsepower of the computer upon which the software resides. Presently that software is limited by Windows as the OS, but there is a new version of the software that is being written that is platform independent so it can be ported to a MAC or Linux or to your cellphone (speaking of talking on a computer what do you think talking on a cell phone is).

I look at the flex radio in a couple of different lights. First is it pretty much a dual conversion radio. The first conversion is done in hardware, and the second conversion is done in software. The first conversion is done is analogue format and the second conversion is done in digital format. The first conversion is done in real time and the second conversion is done in very fast virtual time. The first conversion uses electronic components like bandpass filters and amplifiers and detectors and digital frequency synthesizers to manipulate RF and the second conversion uses equations and software processing to do signal processing. It is a communications system, and the two components of the system work together the same as any dual conversion radio.

A second way to look at the flex system is that the radio is a RF modem. It is a very specifically designed kind of transducer that allows mathematics to be converted to RF and for RF to be converted to mathematics. What are the advantages of that? Mathematics has very very little distortion. It is very predictable, because after all it is mathematics and not something like a transistor that has individual characteristics that need to be taken into account. Consider an amplifier for example. An amplifier is NOT an inherently linear device it has to be made to approach linearity by things like bias and overhead and predictable loading and predictable power sources. If those things are substandard the signal stinks. In an equation however if you want 10dB gain you just multiply an input by 10. Its very linear. In a crystal filter radio, the filter is not perfect. It has bumps and it has delay and it has an imperfect pass band and an imperfect stop band. To make a SSB signal you have to pass double sideband through the filter and imperfectly slice off the unwanted sideband. In a mathematical model if you want to turn for example DSB into LSB you simply set all the USB values to zero. Your signal is now completely LSB and you didn't need any expensive crystal filter to do it. You just wrote some instructions in the software.

If you want a 2.1 khz bandwidth you just set up the equation to give you 2.1 khz and the filter walls are essentially vertical. If you want 3khz you set the equation to 3KHZ and the cost of doing that is free. You don't need another expensive filter to get there, YET the transmitted signal is 2.1 khz of LSB RF or the received signal is 3KHZ of demodulated sideband audio just the same as the analogue radio. You are not talking on a computer any more than you are talking on a radio, because the analogue radio is in fact just an analogue computer. It is just a device that uses the same basic equations of frequency mixing and filtering except those mathematics are done using components that are analogue in the way they do their processing instead of digital.

So if the transmitted RF is the same and the audio that hits your ear is the same how is it that one would recoil from the technology and have to resort to prejudgements like "it ain't got no knob!!!" as your excuse especially since the software radio has 5 knobs to choose from!! It doesn't make sense.

What would make sense as the discussion unfolds is to compare and contrast the various advantages and disadvantages

For example I read one noted DXer who uses analogue radios, likes to tune the band with a 500hz filter in the line. Personally I use 50hz and my panadapter. It gives me a 10dB SNR advantage as far as hearing weak stations goes plus the panadapter displays the signals that are on the band so I can see what is there as well as hear what is there. My particular radio has 2 receivers that can be synced so I have 2 panadapters that can look at the same segment of band. I can set on pan to average and one to peak and I can watch a weak signal grow on the peak adapter as I watch the typical signature of a coherent CW signal on the other. As a result I can see signals that are at MDS with this set up. At the touch of a software switch I can put different antennas on the 2 receivers and now my system is a dual diversity system which dramatically reduces fading on this week signal. Further I can phase these 2 antennas so I can null local noise and hear the signal even better, and if I choose I can tune in the station with my knob, but I usually just click on the station with my mouse. Saves time

73 W9OY

Don't Knock It!

by K9IUQ on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

1. Does it do cw *well*?
2. Will it work on all digital modes?
3. What is the resale value? The bottom seems to have dropped out on the early Flex models.....

Stan K9IUQ

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N4BFD on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

1. Yes, but this used to be a issue in the past on the TX side on slower computers.
2. They are great for digital modes, as you use the built in A/D converter as your sound card, and it works great with a very clean looking waterfall.
3. The older SDR1000s, especially the 3 board stack 1watt units can be had for pretty cheap. The the later 100watt units with all the updates, with a decent sound card bundled in go for around 850-1000. The Flex Radios made today do not require sound cards, and used Flex3000 and 5000s sell for used close to what they go for new.

Don't Knock It!

by WN9HJW on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I would hardly compare purchasing a Flex radio and plugging it into a computer with "...following in the grand tradition of Marconi, Faraday, Tesla, Armstrong and the like. Radio adventures as we were, experimenting and pushing the communications envelope. "

Marconi, Faraday, Tesla, Armstrong and the like were researchers, engineers, inventors. Creative people.

Whoever invented the Flex radio was the pioneer. People who buy the things are end-users, not Marconis or Armstrongs.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K5END on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"Whoever invented the Flex radio was the pioneer. People who buy the things are end-users, not Marconis or Armstrongs. "

Agreed.

However, I know a few guys in our club who build SDR rigs from the board up.

My hat is off to them.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K0BG on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

You're right about one thing Jim, the face of amateur radio has changed (pun intended).

Everyone has a passion, or at least should have (that's a whole new topic), and for me it's mobile operation. I'm always striving to improve the whole of my equipment, as I'm sure many Flex and knob-twister users are. However, there are a lot of folks who wish to remain status quo, for whatever reason, including lack of funding and/or desire. It is these folks, so it seems, that aren't objective, and literally pick a fight about someone else's choice. Sometimes is just plain old jealousy driving their comments, or they're just cantankerous by nature. Sobeit. I can always move off the frequency, by whatever means. The ones I get upset over, however, are the ones who pick something or someone apart, because they're ignorant of the facts. Be that technical or practical, the results are the same.

As mentioned, the face of amateur radio has changed, in that a lot of it is directly, or indirectly, connected with the internet. This fact allows the antagonists to hide behind a pseudonym, and as a result, the diatribe will always get nasty.

My advice? Ignore them, and let them stew in their own sociopathic juices.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K7CB on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I think you hit it on the head a little there Alan. If you like knobs...great. But that doesn't mean anyone using an SDR isn't operating a real radio. Does it modulate and demodulate a signal that was transmitted and received by an antenna? Yep. So, I'd say that makes it a radio. The reverse also applies. If you like SDR...great. Have fun with it. But that doesn't mean anyone that likes a big box with lots of buttons and knobs is living in the past or refusing to embrace technology. It's just a choice...much like your preferred mode. Some like CW, some like SSB and many others like PSK31 or RTTY. There's really no reason to belittle someone for their choices within amateur radio. Whether the station you're talking to is using a radio with knobs and buttons, or one that's controlled by software...if they sound good, who cares what kind of radio it is? Personally, I'd like to have one of each. I like knobs and buttons because, well, I think a big radio with lots of knobs and buttons just looks cool. But, after seeing a Flex 3000 in action, I think the ability to display a slice of spectrum on the monitor, see the signals and then just point and click is really cool as well.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AA4PB on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

there are at least 5 knobs available to run the Flex software
------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if Icom could get away with "new radio $6999.00, knobs and power cord extra"??? :-)

Hi Hi :-)

Don't Knock It!

by N9DG on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Ponder for a moment all those owners and users of Drake, Swan, Heathkit, Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, etc. in early 1970's who were knocking all of those new fangled import radios from Japan. Just look what has happened since... Hmmmm...

Don't Knock It!

by K8YZK on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I wish I had the money to buy a FLEX5000 but don't but then again I don't have it to buy a IC-7800 either.

Part of my problem and with time it will change is the computersoundcard that is required. Seems like you have to have the latest greatest to get the most out of it. I don't buy the latest greatest everytime it comes out. I am still using a 500mhz computer system and it seems to work fine for me, for what I want it to do, some logging and digital modes.

Another thorn and maybe it is just me, but listening to some of those running SDR's have the "I am better then you attitude", but I also hear the same thing with other modes, radio and operations(dx'er come to mind). I know it is probably just a few, but when you ask a question and someone comes back with a smartass answer, well to me, that just puts me off.

I hope more SDR's are developed and offered, and like digital watches and computer's I hope they come down in price soon. Right now I will stay with the knobs instead of knobless.

Kurt

Don't Knock It!

by W5PJW on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I think the concept is fascinating but the "anti-knob" zealots are just as annoying as the "anti-SDR" crowd. Sometimes a knob is just quicker, sometimes not. What's wrong with an SDR with a knob on it? Options are good. Those of us running mobile or portable generally don't want to lug a computer along too, but would love to be able to upgrade/change/tweak the radio via software prior to hitting the road. Best of both worlds maybe?

73, Mark

RE: Don't Knock It!

by SWL2002 on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

A big problem with some (most?) Amateurs adopting SDR is that Ham Radio is pretty much an Old Fart hobby. Many of these Old Farts are pretty set in their ways, unable to learn or accept new things, and resistant to any change in the way they have been doing it for many years. Too bad for them... they are missing out.

Bob

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9MHZ on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

SWL, you do make a good point, and I don't think it's confined to just ham radio. How many gearheads from the 60's and 70's could rebuild the engine in today's family car?

We're in a weird point in history, where everything is advancing and changing so rapidly, that people try and make sense of it based upon what they've known from their life's experiences. Seems like people will go one of two ways....resistance or jumping in with both feet.

Personally, I've held that this hobby is so big that you can find a niche' to satisfy your interests without too much trouble. I don't know of any other pursuit, hobby or professional, that binds such large numbers of people together (via licensing, band allocations, social gatherings, etc), but still allows for great latitude in individual interests.

This anxiety that we all feel with technology advancing at such a blistering pace is understandable, but, as you've pointed out, it shouldn't be a reason for lashing out against something that we don't have an interest in or understand.

Whew, sorry about the run-on drivel.

Best,

Brad, K9MHZ

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N9DG on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"How many gearheads from the 60's and 70's could rebuild the engine in today's family car?"

Can't speak for what the gearheads from the 60's and 70's can or can't do with today's car engines. But I do know that there is a whole new geration of gearheads who can, and do rebuild, tweak, modify most of the current generation engines out there. I even know some of them. They no longer fiddle with carbs, but instead they fiddle with brain boxes, injection systems, and sensors. In many ways that is really not that different than where ham radio gear has come to today.. It is just a different, but current with today's technology way to fiddle and experiment..

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

<Those of us running mobile or portable generally don't want to lug a computer along too>

It's interesting that one of the guys on the Flex list runs his Flex radio remote base from his iPhone. He has the advantage of a fully sized home setup while he is running down the road at 70 per.

He can work the DX sitting on the beach or from the Loo at work, all he needs is the cell phone access.

This guy doesn't need to have a radio with him to have his radio

73 W9OY

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N9DG on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"Part of my problem and with time it will change is the computersoundcard that is required. Seems like you have to have the latest greatest to get the most out of it."

This is an all too common misperception that continues to persist. In the case of the Flex models only the SDR-1000 required a sound card. All of their models since the SDR-1000 all have the equivalent of a sound card already built into them.

And for the low cost SDR's like the $20-50 Softrocks that do need a sound card, it simply does not need to be high end, or expensive. Most any stereo sound card will work. All that the higher end sound card gets you is better performance. In the case of the Softrocks chasing after that higher level of performance is usually not that critical.

The other myth that still persists is that the computer needs to be the "latest and greatest". In reality most any "best bang for buck" new computer that you can buy today will do just fine. And that computer with monitor can usually be found for less than $500. In fact just the other day I saw a post from a fellow who bought a new sub $200 computer that runs his Flex just fine and he has plenty of CPU headroom left over. The key thing is that there are just some configuration items that you need to pay attention to in order to optimize its performance for SDR use.

so I am the old fart...

by DL3ZM on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

@SWL2002:
I think that what you said is not the truth (at least not in generally).
E.g. i am not an old person and i am a software engineer handling a lot of "new stuff" at my daily work. But in my spare time i prefer to use old radios to send CW signals into the world (without a computer).
At my local radio club we have some "old farts" that told me that SDR is the future and that they like to test it.

So in this case, i am the "old fart" and they are the "smart guys" ;-).

"Jedem das seine" ("to each his own").

73
Hans-Georg (DL3ZM)

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

<1. Does it do cw *well*?>
<2. Will it work on all digital modes?>
<3. What is the resale value? The bottom seems to have dropped out on the early Flex models..... >

1. It does CW REALLY well, as good as my Orion.
2. It does ALL the digital modes including digital radio monidale.
3. I bought my SDR-1000 used for $1100 bux and sold it 5 years later (earlier this year) for $1000.

I bought my Orion used for $3000 added about 500 bux worth of filters and sold it for $2300 about 2 years later.

What the writer is getting at is the point of owning a SDR. He thought he'd make a comment that was supposed to detract from the Flex, except his negative comments are yesterdays news. In the early days it didn't do CW very well, it did not do AMTOR really well, but over the course of the years those bugs have been worked out. The advantage of the Flex is it is not created in the immutable stone of hardware. It is created in the flexibility of software and as such it can be re-created in software, hence it now does CW well and it now does AMTOR etc.

Also to upgrade all you need to do is download the updates. The performance of an entire fleet of radios can be improved at a mere download. Personally I think that is amazing. This radio actually does get better and better. It is not just advertising hype.

73 W9OY

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AA5JG on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"Once you operate a Flex, I feel you will agree that even the most expensive knob radios are Neanderthal by comparison."

So the original author is doing what he accuses the rest of us for doing-putting you down if you don't think like him and his preferences.

73s John AA5JG

Don't Knock It!

by AI4BJ on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

>>Don't knock it!

Who said I'm knocking it??

>>Once you operate a Flex, I feel you will agree that even the most expensive knob radios are Neanderthal by comparison.

I have tried a Flex, and no, I don't agree that my "knob radio" is "Neanderthal" by comparison. I'm a tactile person, and if I had to use a mouse and computer screen to operate my radio, my enjoyment of ham radio would be significantly diminished. Yes, I am aware that the Flex can be equipped with a "real" tuning knob, but that does not obviate the need for a mouse and computer screen to operate the radio. I sit in front of a computer screen all day at work, and I want my hobbies to NOT be like my job.

I'm very glad that you are happy with your Flex radio. It seems to be a first-class rig. Get on the air with it and stop tormenting yourself over the fact that other hams are just as happy with their Elecraft/Yaesu/Icom/Kenwood/BrandX rigs!

73,
Mark AI4BJ

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AB7E on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Part of the idiocy of the "Radio with Knobs" versus SDR debate is rooted in the erroneous perception that you have to choose one or the other. There is almost a continuous spectrum of possibilities between the two extremes. As has been mentioned, you can buy add-on knob boxes for the full SDR rigs, but you can also buy SDR boxes (like LP-Pan) that interface with the I.F. of various standard rigs ... I think there's even a version for the TS-940S! There are also rigs like the Elecraft K3 and TenTec Orion II that look and feel like a regular rig (ergonomics aside) but are essentially an SDR with all the advantages of software performance and feature updates. In my opinion, there isn't much validity in trying to argue which is the better approach when you can easily have both if you want it.

As for those who simply complain about anything that overtly involves a computer .... well, what can I say? That simply sounds like another rendition of spark versus CW, regenerative versus superhet, AM versus SSB, etc. Even hobbies slowly die when they try to stand still.

73,
Dave AB7E

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I wouldnt trade my older gear for a truckload of Flex rigs.. No knobs = not a real ham radio.
My 30+ year old Yaesu will probably be around LONG after the flex radios have ben obsoleted due to software being outdated and the Flex winds up in a landfill...

RE: Don't Knock It!

by KG4RUL on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Comparison:

Antenna: Let's say a wire dipole resonant on 20M

Radio: TS2000

Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax - you are on the air.

Radio: Flex5000

Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax, hookup computer (hopefully your hardware is ok to use), load software (hopefully all your drivers, etc. are up-to-date) - maybe you are on the air.

It seems like this is making a simple task rather hard to accomplish.

THE OTHER FOOT

by G3SEA on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

It's fine to have one foot firmly entrenched in the past but make sure the other foot is firmly entrenched in the future. Don't forget the present either ;)

KH6/G3SEA

Don't Knock It!

by K3LUE on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

What this amounts to is another way of hamming, pure and simple. If you like it, go for it. If you don't no one is forcing you. Why not just be satisfied saying, "it's different" without pontificating about what is "right" or "wrong." Those that say "the only thing constant is change," are entirely correct just as those that think "change is not always progress." For now, it's one more method of getting rf to and from the ozone.
73 Ron

Room for both kinds of rigs!

by W8KQE on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Many parallels can be drawn between 'SDR vs. knobbed rigs' in the Amateur Radio world, and proponents of current technology vs. older technology in other hobbies/pastimes. For example, in the audiophile/music world, there are those that swear by the supposed superior 'warmer' analog sound of a high end turntable or a tube amp, as compared to solid state amps or digital CD's or MP3's. In the motorcycling world, there are bikers who prefer older classic technology like the V-twin or opposing twin cylinder feel and 'growl' of a Harley, Moto-Guzzi, or BMW, as compared to the more modern Japanese bikes. There are those that prefer American muscle cars over fine German sports cars like a Porsche or Benz, and vice versa. The bottom line is that there is room for every taste, and that's what makes this, and other hobbies enjoyable! I can appreciate the 'feel' and 'whiz bang technology' of both SDR, and of classic style rigs with large, weighted knobs.

RE: Room for both kinds of rigs!

by N6AJR on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

don't need a flex.

I have owned a ten tec pegasus for years...

flex ain't all that special, remember the kachina??

all radios, all work

RE: Room for both kinds of rigs!

by N4BFD on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

The Peg and Kachina were just computer controlled radios, more firmware defined. A FlexRadio uses PowerSDR program which filters, modulates and demodulates signals in software on the computer, which allows you do do all sorts of things that you can't do on a radio that is just computer controlled. You also get a interactive real time 192khz or 96khz panadapter/waterfall/phase/spectrum scope/ and panafall and panascope combos.

However, I see the Pegasus going for less than 500 dollars on the used market, which is pretty darn good for a IF DSP rig.

RE: Room for both kinds of rigs!

by WB2WIK on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

>RE: Room for both kinds of rigs! Reply
by N4BFD on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
The Peg and Kachina were just computer controlled radios, more firmware defined. A FlexRadio uses PowerSDR program which filters, modulates and demodulates signals in software on the computer,<

::You're confusing SDR and DSP. Those functions are all done using A->D converters and DSP in most modern rigs, and the Pegasus did have I.F. DSP many years ago.

I had an SDR1000 and it wouldn't perform for me, in my environment but unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to try the 5000 (yet); hopefully, one day.

I'd love to look at the schematic for the Flex 5000 but after downloading the whole ~4MB manual, I see only a block diagram and extremely rudimentary architecture descriptions. In fact, the whole manual is dedicated to "set up," and there's really nothing technical contained in it anywhere. That was kind of disappointing.

Unless I missed a download someplace...

I downloaded Flex-5000_Owners_Manual_V1.12.0.pdf

I've never had a rig that didn't come with a complete schematic diagram in the owners manual, so this is a new one on me.

WB2WIK/6

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N2RRA on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Comparison:

Antenna: Let's say a wire dipole resonant on 20M

Radio: TS2000

Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax - you are on the air.

Radio: Flex5000

Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax, hookup computer (hopefully your hardware is ok to use), load software (hopefully all your drivers, etc. are up-to-date) - maybe you are on the air.

It seems like this is making a simple task rather hard to accomplish.

KG4RUL

I agree with you 100%!

What some would say is that if one want to move ahead in technology compromises need to be made. In this case I think for the same price you pay for a Flex you should have it in a box with knobs and screen. I should not have to cough up more dollars in a computer to make up for lack of.

From a marketing stand point knowing what it takes to produce these PC boards and a case for a Flex their making top dollar profit cutting the corner not having to make it look more and feel like an actual radio. Not just a cube with sound card and PC board. All other manufacturer's can basically do the same but haven't.

To each their own! I'm just looking at it from a practical stand point of view.

73's!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N2RRA on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

don't need a flex.

I have owned a ten tec pegasus for years...

flex ain't all that special, remember the kachina??

all radios, all work

N6AJR - I agree with you also!

I know a few guys plus one just recently that went from a Flex 5000 and sold it for an Icom 7700 and he's very happy with the Icom 7700. Doesn't seem to miss the Flex or look to go back to an SDR.

73's!

RE: Room for both kinds of rigs!

by N4BFD on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Yes, but my point was that DSP software functions are done on the computer side, and not in the rig.

As for the Flex5000, they have a generous return option if I am not mistaken, load one up on a CC and try it out, if it gets overloaded by your nearby zillion watt SWL station send it packing.

WB2WIK::You're confusing SDR and DSP. Those functions are all done using A->D converters and DSP in most modern rigs, and the Pegasus did have I.F. DSP many years ago.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AD7C on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"No knobs = Not Real Ham radio"

Better tell all those airline pilots that they don't fly 'real' airplanes because they have glass touch-screen displays rather than knobs and dials.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WB2WIK on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Stearmans never had touch screens.

Now that I think about it, they didn't have any knobs and dials, either...

Don't Knock It!

by HFHAM2 on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I may be wrong, but isn't the only point made in your article "I'm smart and hip and anyone who doesn't agree with me is an old fart"? Seems that way to me.

I didn't see anyone "knocking" SDR before your article, so is this just an advertisement, self aggrandizement or what?

If you're happy with your Whizzbang 2000 or whatever, fine, be happy, but for some of us, it just doesn't push our buttons (excuse the pun).

Personally, having worked professionally with computers for over 25 years, I'd rather spend my ham radio time building and using basic QRP gear, Regens and the like.

It takes all sorts to make a world...

RE: Don't Knock It!

by HAMMYGUY on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Great...another pissing match on whether a computer controlled radio is SDR or an SDR radio is nothing but a computer.

It's fairly new, it works very well, but it doesn't have knobs. If you like your knobs mounted vertically, get an SDR. If you like your knobs mounted horizontally get everything else.

I've got an SDR-1000, had a Flex-3000, and own at least 5 HF rigs with knobs. When I get bored with knobs I fire up PowerSDR and play no knob.

Variety is the spice of life.

Woo Hoo.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WB2WIK on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Flex has a ways to go to add "plug and play" sophistication to the software, and garner a larger enthusastic user group.

Reading the manual for the 5000A, I got tired. The "setup" instructions go on for dozens of pages.

Better would be to plug it in, turn it on, let it boot, and start using it. The computer should discover what's attached, configure it, and say "ready." That takes another layer of sophistication that isn't there, yet.

Then again, Microsoft has hundreds of people writing code full time and it takes them months or years to develop the next gen SW that does anything better or different from last gen, so I can appreciate this is no minor task.

I don't care if radios have knobs, switches, levers, or can read my mind...if it's radio, it's all good.

WB2WIK/6

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WB2WIK on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Flex has a ways to go to add "plug and play" sophistication to the software, and garner a larger enthusastic user group.

Reading the manual for the 5000A, I got tired. The "setup" instructions go on for dozens of pages.

Better would be to plug it in, turn it on, let it boot, and start using it. The computer should discover what's attached, configure it, and say "ready." That takes another layer of sophistication that isn't there, yet.

Then again, Microsoft has hundreds of people writing code full time and it takes them months or years to develop the next gen SW that does anything better or different from last gen, so I can appreciate this is no minor task.

I don't care if radios have knobs, switches, levers, or can read my mind...if it's radio, it's all good.

WB2WIK/6

RE: Don't Knock It!

by HAMMYGUY on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Where Flex has missed the boat is not having a bootable CD which would load a minimum configuration for PowerSDR. It would make things far easier for a plug and play type of radio. Since only the old products required sound card drivers would it be that difficult?

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K5END on September 10, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

quote, "Stearmans never had touch screens.
Now that I think about it, they didn't have any knobs and dials, either..."

Steve, that is hilarious!!!!

I had to laugh out loud on that one.

Good one!

I wonder how many of these kids know what a Stearman is?

I knew some guys who had the b*&z to fly a Stearman into Addison airport North of Dallas, on occasion. It is the busiest single-runway airport in the nation, and the Stearman didn't even have a radio! I never had any time in a tail dragger, so I never dared to try it.

Thanks again for the late night laugh.

Don't Knock It!

by VK5GI on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

The thing about Ham Radio is that it can cater for all tastes - even those who like knobs and those that don't! I like QRP and small signal work, but I know many folks who say that life is too short for QRP. Whatever turns you on.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by G3LBS on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Are people still using those old keyboards and mice then - this is almost a quote from Space Odyssey? I use free speech recognition in Word 2007 and Vista. I use it to input speech into text and to control the computer. It leaves me more time to twiddle my ham radio knobs.
W2/G3LBS

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

With Windows as the O/S a bootable CD is not in the cards.

In the next generation of software that will be entirely possible, and I expect probable. Part of the problem with that approach however is that Ham stations run more and more in a computer controlled environment even in the case of "knob radios". Many are running logging programs and DX spotting programs station management programs and other applets like WinKey or Skimmer and digital mode programs and much of that would be hard to integrate into a "CD" format, and it certainly would not lend itself to multiple weekly updates.

73 W9OY

Don't Knock It!

by KC8ZEV on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Cooking your own RF is the key here.........don't confuse SDR with Echolink. Yes, I am old school and like the knob. But the SDRs offer alot in a small package. Makes for a very compact station which can make or break many Amateurs today. We need not chastise those who are still old school. But I do draw the line with echolink.......no RF cooked and none pulled out of the sky.......that is talking on a computer!!

73
KC8ZEV

Don't Knock It!

by N9DG on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"Reading the manual for the 5000A, I got tired. The "setup" instructions go on for dozens of pages."

That's funny, that's exactly what happens to me when I read a downloaded manual for a Yaecomwood radio. Page after page describing those hundreds of cryptic menus. In the end I'd always come away with the feeling that "wow, that's a lot of manual and menu driven controls for radio that can't do all that much more, or anything better than what my 25 year old Corsairs can do”..

However when I setup PowerSDR I didn't hardly even read the manual, didn't need to. It was all very straight forward, and all pretty standard PC configuration stuff. But then I don’t have this visceral hatred of computers, and shoot I even work with them every day, all day long.. And when I come home and run my Flex’s or other PC based SDR gear I don’t usually think about the computer being in the mix at all, just like I don’t usually think about the electricity it takes to power the whole lot, it’s just a radio.. And then to use the PowerSDR UI was no trick either. Just tried a few things and sure enough, it usually did what I thought it would when I clicked on the panadapter display in different ways. The rest of the controls are plainly labeled and not multifunctioned. But on the other hand when I was at an area dealer and sat down in front of one of those $10K radios it was clear that needing to read the manual was an absolute necessity to use any of the controls beyond the basic ones.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AA4PB on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I think the untimate future of SDR will be a dedicated device with its own built-in computer. It won't involve plugging a box into the sound card on a home PC. Take a look at some of the military SDRs to get an idea of where it's headed.

As another example, take a look at the home DVR market. The box looks somewhat like a VCR and some of the controls even work like a VCR but inside its got a computer board with an operating system and a hard drive.

Don't Knock It!

by WA4CM on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Well maybe I'm an old fart but for me part of the fun of Ham Radio was getting the transmitter tuned up and the receiver set.

Now you don't really need to do much of anything to get on the air.

Heck...my cell phone is more complicated than most radios now.

Booorrrinnng

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA4CM on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Oh one more thing. All the radios out now perform very well. But no radio...no matter how sophisticated and advanced it may be...will counter bad propagation and lousy operating and dirty signals on any band.

Those who think that these radios will do that need to go back and read some of the articles by "The Old Man"
in QST.

Don't Knock It!

by K5XH on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Some of us are happy being an appliance operator as evidenced by this comment:

<
"Comparison:

Antenna: Let's say a wire dipole resonant on 20M

Radio: TS2000

Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax - you are on the air."
>

Others enjoy a bit of a challenge:

<
Radio: Flex5000

Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax, hookup computer (hopefully your hardware is ok to use), load software (hopefully all your drivers, etc. are up-to-date) - maybe you are on the air."
>

Yes, the Flex is a bit of a challenge (for me at least) to get set up. It actually went quite smoothly as far as the basic operation went. Getting it working on the various digital modes was a little harder. But I expected this when I bought the radio. I felt the same excitement when I got it all working as I did when I made my first EME contact (with homebrew equipment) back in the 80s.

As for operating on the digital modes - it makes for a much neater configuration than my old method using my FT-1000 and external soundcard. Other than the FireWire connection between the Flex and the computer there are no additional cables.

The computer I use is an older Dell with a single core Pentium running at 3GHz. It only has 512 MB of memory and I held off adding memory until I saw how it would work with the Flex. So far it has been flawless. I have not added any more memory. So the notion of having to have a high end computer is not valid.

I'm 61 years old and I figure this is the last major piece of ham gear I will ever be able to purchase. My decision to go with the FlexRadio 5000A was based on the hope that this device will continue to evolve over time and new features will be only a download away.

So, count me as one of the dinosaurs that has easily adapted to the newer technology.

Don't Knock It!

by WA1M on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Software defined radio will never replace my coherer.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA4CM on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Good one.

Or my telegraph sounder.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by G6NJR on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

>He can work the DX sitting on the beach or from the Loo at work, all he needs is the cell phone access.

This guy doesn't need to have a radio with him to have his radio <

And this is exactly why it is not as good as a lot of you make it out to be it's the same as all this ilrp stuff it is removing the RADIO from radio .

It may have it's uses for example if you live somewhere that does not allow antennas but have access to somewhere that does then yes slam in a flex or other SDR system and remote control it but remember that the location given should be the location of the antennas NOT the location of the OP at that moment.

Pete .
G6NJR

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WB6RQN on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

WRT the Flex Radios:

Ad for Flex Radio: Flex owners seem pretty passionate about their radios. It is not surprising that someone who owns and likes their Flex 1000/3000/5000 will say good things about it.

Tearing sound: this is an RF feedback problem in the FireWire link. If you hear it, the station needs to do some work to eliminate RF in the shack. If the Flex 5000 is working properly its audio is every bit as good as a top-notch analog rig. I have some local friends who are hard-core boatanchor, AM, and ESSB ops. They are impressed as heck with the audio from my F5K and they are listening to me on groundwave with many 10's of dB of S:N so if there are any low-level artifacts, they would hear them.

Monitor going dead: This goes for any component in the station. We can just as well use the words 'rotary encoder', 'LCD display', 'PA transistors', 'power supply', 'microphone', 'feedline', etc., in the sentence, "If the <fill-in-the-blank> goes dead, it's dead."

Field Day: I can't imagine doing field day without a computer to do logging. Sure you can do it on paper but I would be willing to bet that most field-day ops use computerized logging. Once you take that step you may as well run the radio with the same hardware.

And when you say "monitor and computer" you may as well change that to "laptop computer".

BTW, the Flex-3000/laptop combination makes an attractive and compact all-mode, all-function station. I used one for Field Day this year. In fact, my elementary students gravitated to it over the K2 in our 2A field-day station at our school this year. I consider this to be significant as they do not have a bias for any particular type of radio.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL

Don't Knock It!

by WA1M on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

> Radio: TS2000
> Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax - you are on the > air.
>
> Radio: Flex5000
> Plug it in, attach antenna feed coax, hookup computer
> (hopefully your hardware is ok to use), load software
> (hopefully all your drivers, etc. are up-to-date) -
> maybe you are on the air.
>
> It seems like this is making a simple task rather
> hard to accomplish.

Sounds like the TS2000 is best suited for those appliance operators I keep hearing about.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K4JSR on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

All of this makes me want to go make some Ozone with my rotary spark gap!
I just hope that my sociopathic juices are not too
conductive! If they are I would most certainly have
"TOUCH-SCREAM" capabilities with my rig!!

I can hardly wait to have the epitome of modern ham radio: An SDR radio talking to another SDR radio via
internet linking!!!

73,

Cal K4JSR

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N3EVL on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"...Marconi, Faraday, Tesla, Armstrong and the like were researchers, engineers, inventors. Creative people....Whoever invented the Flex radio was the pioneer. People who buy the things are end-users, not Marconis or Armstrongs."

This comment is so unbelievably WRONG! A modicum of research would reveal that the open source nature of PowerSDR has led to considerable invention and innovation by many hams who are not connected with Flex but have contributed to the development of this software. Gerald, K5SDR, made a very wise decision to keep the software open and free and while his pioneering efforts to make SDR available to all of us can not be denied, to say that subsequent purchasers are simply "end-users" does many of those new pioneeers a disservice.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N3EVL on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"...I think the untimate future of SDR will be a dedicated device with its own built-in computer. It won't involve plugging a box into the sound card on a home PC. Take a look at some of the military SDRs to get an idea of where it's headed...."

Why is connecting some hardware to a computer such a big issue? It's something done when you get the radio and then that's it - it's not like I need to take-the-cable-and-plug-it-in-the-socket over and over again every time I want to make a QSO. Weird!

I think the adoption of SDR technology by the military is for somewhat different reasons that within the ham community. The Army wants a black-box radio that can be pre-programmed with mission specific requirements that change from mission to mission and will be operated by someone without technical radio expertise. In the amateur case we want to push the envelope a bit further and see what can be achieved in terms of signal path through the radio and operation of the radio in a variety of modes and operating styles, etc.

Who Cares !

by K8ICB on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Seems to me that both sides are little nuts on the knobs VS SDR.
I sold my Pro III to buy an SDR 1000 and later up graded to the 5000A .The Pro III was and is a wonderful radio and is owned by thousands of hams all over the word.
My guess is that many remarks that are anti SDR are from people that have not operated an SDR radio, maybe not even seen how it works. I liked my SDR 1000 and now my 5000A ; but then I liked my Icom Pro III.My guess is that over time the major companies like Icom and Kenwood and Yaesu will have such equipment for hams and for a long time time we will all have the choice of to knob or not.
If you get a chance operate and SDR , see how you like it, if it is not for you well then you made your choice.
73 and happy knob twisting or mouse clicks which ever fits your taste.

Dan
K8ICB in Florida

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WB2WIK on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

>RE: Don't Knock It! Reply
by AA4PB on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
I think the untimate future of SDR will be a dedicated device with its own built-in computer. It won't involve plugging a box into the sound card on a home PC. Take a look at some of the military SDRs to get an idea of where it's headed.

As another example, take a look at the home DVR market. The box looks somewhat like a VCR and some of the controls even work like a VCR but inside its got a computer board with an operating system and a hard drive.<

::And normally if these ever fail (and they do fail), they're replaced free of charge, forever. We have five of them in the house, and after about 3 years a failure is common, but I have a new replacement box the next day via FedEx from DirecTV; or if its one of the cable DVR boxes, I can have a new replacement box in 15 minutes by driving over to Time Warner Cable with the old box and trading for a new one over the counter (no cost).

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Clicking a mouse and looking at a computer monitor isnt ham radio. There is no challenge or thrill using a SDR rig and a monitor.

RE: Who Cares !

by K5END on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

.

As long as what the operator does is FB, once that radio wave hits the sky who gives a ___ what radio the operator on the other end is using? Why would another person's choice of radio have any relevance on what you choose to do in the hobby? If he uses knobs or not, does that make you a better or worse operator?

No.

It has nothing to do with you, and vice versa.

To make judgments about what someone else chooses to use in their own QTH is self-important, if not downright arrogant. Don't try to tell a guy what antenna or radio to use. It is not your job to police Ham radio according to what standards you would impose for a "real" radio.

Either QSO with the OM or don't.

RE: Who Cares !

by K5END on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

By the way, compliments and thanks to the author of the article. Thanks for submitting it.

SDR is on my agenda, but I have 2 or 3 projects in front of me I want to complete before doing SDR.

My QTH gear will eventually range from old Collins to new SDR, and anything else that comes along.

I love radio, no matter the nature of the box from which it emanates.

Don't Knock It!

by WA1M on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

> Clicking a mouse and looking at a computer monitor
> isnt ham radio.

But pressing a a key PTT switch and looking at a radio dial or display is?

RE: Don't Knock It!

by KC8RWR on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

N3EVL - "...I think the untimate future of SDR will be a dedicated device with its own built-in computer"

Sure, a built in computer does sound nice but we don't have to wait for some big corp to come out with it. Go to your favorite search engine and look up Beagleboard and Gumstix. With those, a small LCD touch screen you've got the makings of a nice radio.

It might take a bit more effort for the first few hams as they will want custom software. I can see a community building up around this and creating a pretty good software distro for the non-programmers quickly enough. (GNU Radio would be a good starting point)

I'm saving up with my first kid on the way right now but I definitely intend to build something like this eventually. I hope there is already a community out there by then but I'll try to start it if I have to. Check out what the people at http://opencellphone.org have done to see what I mean. Imagine the cellular module replaced with an SDR module, or maybe even a device with both. It could be pretty nice.

For those who miss the knobs all it takes is a handful of rotary encoders. That's all most "modern" rigs use anyway, not actual shafts going to capacitors or resistors anymore. I think I will chose to include the knobs, a rotary encoder is less than $3 over at sparkfun.com. Maybe not for the handheld variety though, just to save space.

I'm not sure anyone is selling an SDR board small enough for this yet but some Hams could probably roll their own. The current Softrocks could probably at least be fit with a Beagleboard in a mobile sized case.

Meanwhile, a standalone SDR with a Netbook wouldn't be terrible.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Yes it is. To each thier own.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N9DG on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"I think the adoption of SDR technology by the military is for somewhat different reasons that within the ham community. The Army wants a black-box radio that can be pre-programmed with mission specific requirements that change from mission to mission and will be operated by someone without technical radio expertise."

And don't forget be able work as designed before, during, and after, being dragged through dirt, snow, mud, water, etc. And then also still work as designed while being shot at to boot... We as hams simply don't have those kinds of harsh environmental conditions to deal with, ... at least most of us don't...

Don't Knock It!

by WA1M on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

> Yes it is. To each thier own.

Your thorough, well-reasoned and fact-laden argument has demolished and laid waste to my doubts. I salute you.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

THanks you my crusty, old curmudegon, ham friend!
You hammies are so much fun to pick on. I just sit back and laugh at the goofy responses i get on Eham and QRZ. One thing i have found out in my short time being a hammie ham, is hams generally dont have a sense of humor. I guess that is one of the requirements to being a ham is to park your sense of humor at the door?

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

<I think the untimate future of SDR will be a dedicated device with its own built-in computer.>

http://flex-radio.com/Products.aspx?topic=F5Kc_details

Yea that will be one iteration

73 W9OY

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

<I can hardly wait to have the epitome of modern ham radio: An SDR radio talking to another SDR radio via
internet linking!!! >

I already described this. The guy who uses his iPhone to run his F5Kis doing this precise thing. I expect it won't be long till some contest stations use SDR receivers distributed across the world to increase the point total.

I already use this radio

websdr.org over in the Netherlands and up in VA to test and compare my antennas from my FL QTH. I can open up 2 of the RX sites and get some idea of how the signal is at 1000 miles and how it is a 4500 miles.

Gives a whole new meaning to Ant1 - Ant2

Now I don't want any of you old boys who need a knob to crank to go to this site and use these radios, after all they are NOT Ham radio, they are boring, and not a bit of fun

cracks me up

73 W9OY

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Sounds boring to me!!!!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N6HPX on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

The porblem might be the price of the system and just ot ready for that as for me I havent looked into it but need to confront my xyl if I can add it to my station.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N3EVL on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

KC8RWR - Please be careful when quoting a previous post - you attributed a quote to me that was actually by AA4PB.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N3EVL on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

K9FON Said: "...Clicking a mouse and looking at a computer monitor isnt ham radio. There is no challenge or thrill using a SDR rig and a monitor..."

Wow - you mean all those thrills and challenges I've had over the last few years weren't real! Thanks for setting me straight: I'll rid my shack of all that non-ham radio stuff directly. I'll make sure to tell everyone on the flex reflector too. Darn - those flex guys and those HPSDR guys and those Softrock guys sure had me fooled!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9MHZ on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I guess I'm a little confused. The author titles it "Don't Knock It..." and a lot of replies feed the debate with opinions on "one side or the other."

Are there really "sides" on this topic? How silly....it's just another piece of gear. Guys, it's all good....just enjoy what you enjoy. Lining up with opinions under made-up issues really gets old.

This is supposed to be fun.

Best,
Brad, K9MHZ

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N4BFD on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

well put!

RE: SDR is just another three letter word.

by K4JSR on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Just as SWR seems to mystify the merry myrmidons of
ANTennas, SDR will mystify the gnarly knob nuzzling
nabobs until Perdition has frozen over.

Signed: Luddites For Progress.

RE: SDR is just another three letter word.

by ONAIR on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Didn't we have a similar argument when transistor rigs came out?

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AB7E on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I wonder ... if you put N2RRA and K9FON in a room together, and then sent in one hundred intelligent, outgoing, technically inquisitive young people (the type that we like to think ham radio historically appealed to) for a discussion of what ham radio is all about, how many of those young people would come out with the slightest motivation to explore ham radio? None, I'd venture.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Whatever.
What i cant have an opinion on here?
Gee, im sure glad that no one can view my email address as much as most people on here hate me my email inbox would be full of hate mail!!!!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by SOLARDX on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Dont knock it?

Lets see

You need a very high performance computer to run it without hiccups(expensive)

Its a waste of power just to tune the band, plus you have to wait for the computer to boot.

I have tried the Flex5k, and had to put up with the RFI, terrible audio and hiccups, delays and other computer problems. My benchmark for any good radio is that it should have a basic set of functions that work, SDR radios dont even work as well as basic IC-718 out of the box.

All you seem to buy with these computer controlled radios is heartburn, problems and bugs. When you can buy a SDR radio plug in the microphone and sound decent, and have zero problems that's the day I will look at them again. Life is too short to be working out computers bugs when you could be working DX.

The worst problem with the SDR radios is that they cant seem to actually sound decent. The audio is so flat and weak, they really need a decent RF clipper or processor with a well defined commercial communications passband for TX audio. I notice that just about every Flex5000 radio user has a rack of audio gear to make it sound decent. To me if you cant plug a $1 dollar electret microphone into the radio and sound decent there is something wrong with the radios design. SDR radios seem to be designed for ESSB freaks who like twiddling knobs 0.01 mm at a time!

The biggest problem with SDR radios and computers is that when you start to use simple antennas like end fed longwires. Even open wire fed antennas brought into the shack will cause problems. Try that some time, make sure that you have deep pockets because one of two things will happen. You will either blow the radio, computer or both! With any analogue radio I can park my end fed wire tuner on top of the radio and feed any end fed wire with 1 kilowatt without the radio folding up and having a misfit. SDR radios need to be hardened for severe RF environments.

You cant get any external tuning VFO knob that works 100% with every computer, they all seem to have bugs. Now I like to tune the bands, as a minimum I need a band switch, volume control, mode switch and RIT. Now if some SDR brought out a tuning pod that had these basic controls and you could use it with PowerSDR I might consider using it. A VFO knob is is like the Eiffel Tower to hams, anyone who fails to accommodate this knob will have limited market success. Tell
me of a multi-multi station who uses SDR computer controlled radios? I bet none, simply because it does not have a VFO knob. Trying to change the VFO knob is like trying to change auto mobile drivers to using a joy stick to drive a car. It just wont happen with cars and no VFO knob is not ham radio!

The receiver specifications are impressive, however they cannot survive in a multi-multi environment. The Flex designs have all sorts of spurious products on their transmit signal that makes it unusable. I can take 2 X K3's and operate one on CW and one on SSB from the same QTH on different antennas at 1.5kw, try that with any SDR radio!

SDR/ DSP IF radios are noisy in high QRN levels. These comments apply to the K3 design as well. When QRN is around I use any analogue radio. I can hear S1 to S2 signals with a very old TS-830s that is just noise on a K3, Icom7600, Flex, PRO3, Perseus and a old SDR-IQ. Current DSP designs have no answer to this problem of making receivers sounding noisier than the bands really are. You are handicapping yourself by not having any good analogue radio in your shack. Even a old KWM2A is better for weak signal detection with a lot of QRN around. My old favorite TS830s on the low bands is very hard to beat and it beats every modern SDR/IFDSP radio out there even those 10$K radios.

Weak signal detection. Here again I believe that SDR radios fail in how they handle very weak signals. I have again compared SDR radios and the Flex5000 with even simple DC receivers on very weak signals. While they detect the signals, the readability is very poor results in very poor intelligibility. These comments apply especially so on CW. Even the simplest DC receiver copies weak CW signals better than any K3 or SDR radio. If you do a lot of weak signal work I would stick with any conventional analogue radio. This problem might be related to how the AGC systems work, I am not really sure. I run 3 stacked 15 meter yagis and when working weak JA's I always hear them better on a Analogue radio both on CW and SSB when the signals are weak S1 to S3. Once the signal is over S4 SDR radios sound great and probably are better sounding than most analogue HF radios.

SDR radios still need a lot of design work to perform as well as the very best analogue radios both on transmit and receive. There is no doubt that they have delivered some impressive receiver specifications. However they are still lacking in both receiver and transmitter performance. The areas that SDR transceivers need work on is dealing with noise and QRN, transmitter spurious products, IMD and very weak signal detection. In contest environments they need advanced tracking pre selectors like the advanced DSP Milspec radios, simple suboctave filters are not good enough. They especially need work to RF harden them in severe Rf environments.

While we being forced into this technology by manufacturers, we doing ourselves a disservice by assuming automatically that the technology is cheaper and better. I will be the first one to jump on the band wagon when the technology can deliver, until then I am not going to be forced into this technology just because its new especially when my experience has proven otherwise.

This article seems to come out of the marketing department of some SDR manufacturer whose sales expectations are not being met because of poor market acceptance. The manufacturers of this technology should rather work on solving the technology challenges of the technology rather than trying to stuff unproven ideas down our throat that dont work as well yet. All that I want is the best possible transmitter and receiver, all the manufacturers seem to be focusing on is a bunch of receiver numbers while ignoring the very basics that a radio should offer. When they correct their marketing strategy and deliver something decent that does something better then I will stop "knocking"

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N5PVL on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

When I buy radio equipment, I expect that equipment to do its job without tying up my computer.

Processors are relatively cheap these days. There's no excuse for a radio to have to tie up your PC as a crutch and still cost you as much as a real radio that can stand alone and operate would.

The SDR's are a ripoff for gullible types who think that a radio that has to tie up your PC in order to operate is an 'advancement of the art'...

An advancement of the art of taking in the gullible, perhaps!

73 DE Charles, N5PVL

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

<I can take 2 X K3's and operate one on CW and one on SSB from the same QTH on different antennas at 1.5kw, try that with any SDR radio! >

???

I do that all the time I love working CW DX while yaking with the boys on 75.

I also love these guys who spew behind their anonymity

73 W9OY

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I talked to a ham a while back that was using a Flex 5000 and his backup rig was a Icom 756 Pro III. He said he liked the Flex, but found himself using the 756 more because he liked the feel of knobs on the rig.

I guess if one likes to sit behind a monitor and operate thats ok, but i dont like the SDR technology pushed on me or anyone else for that matter that is satisfied with older technology. And thats what this post amounts to in the end. A cheap corporate speel....

73

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N5AX on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

My approach was to buy a SDR-IQ receiver...
Lesser expensive way to try out SDR.
After a few months of "Computer Control",
I decided the IC-7600 was the rig for me!.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 11, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I do not knock anything. By the same token, I will not be painted as a ludovite because my TS-950SDX fits all my ham radio needs. My Harris and Racals are analogue too.

It also seems that Mil/comm SDR radio's do not suffer what the flex radio does. Then again I would not mind a Harrid Falcon V. My analog Harris radio's were real performance radio for 1985 technology.

SDR is very common with todays modern cell phones.
The chips are dirt cheap,, beccause of mass production.

I will get an SDR ham rig, when the price and performance is what I demand! Remember moores law with PC's. Every 18 months, the price halfs and performance
doubles.

\However if one of the SDR folk wants to give me radio for evaluation for FREE......I will give you good press!!!
hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

IMO......SDR has a few years to replace the best HF analoge radio's produced FOR THE REDUCED SPECS OF the HAM RADIO SERVICE.

I am not knocking it. I have tried some of the SDR commercial offerings. I am a very tough customer,
If Ham SDR makes you happy, I am happy for you!

I also expect SDR repacement modules for analog classics.
Someone redesigned an old Drake TR-7.
I think there is a huge cottage industry of making SDR add ones for the better HF analogue radios's.

IS THAT A CONCEPT THAT SCARES THE HECK OUT OF FLEX......IT SHOULD!!!!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W7ETA on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"So may I suggest before knocking a SDR radio like the Flex, you try one first."

Suggest away. But, bare in mind, I didn't ask for any suggestions.

Ultimately, ask your self, if you like your new radio, why do you care if somebody else doesn't like it?

I had a lot of FUN rebuilding a HeathKit UA-1 integrated mono-block amplifier. Part of the reason I gutted it and replaced everything except for the on-off switch and volume control was to learn more about basic electronics. Right now I'm doing the samething to a HeathKit integrated stereo amp. When I'm done with that, I'll go back a start building my second CW xmitter. I've made the box, mounted the sockets, installed the meters and variable caps and have all of the parts to build a power supply to handle the two KT-88s for the output section.

I'm having FUN.

If you like writing code for software defined rigs, have at it.

73
Bob

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N3EVL on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

N5PVL: "...The SDR's are a ripoff for gullible types who think that a radio that has to tie up your PC in order to operate is an 'advancement of the art'... "

This statement is entirely without merit.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W9OY on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

yea I didn't get that comment either.

I usually have a dozen applications open on my desktop beside PowerSDR. Usually 5 or 6 of them like the DX lab software suite enhance my ham radio experience, but I also do email and antenna design and financial spreadsheets, graphic designs and such while listening to CW QSO's on 40M using my SDR.

My computer is a very pedestrian 3 year old 2.5 ghz core 2 duo, nothing you couldn't buy for 400 bux including monitor

73 W9OY

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Hmmmm, W9OY, your multithreading tasks with a decent computer. It would seem to me that your power SDR is just controlling an application specific CPU device on the SDR radio itself.

So the SDR program is not processing any RF. Rather a small program is controlling the parameters of ASPIC chips.

If SDR radio's had as complex real time tasks as my overclocked 3.6ghz quad core pentium I use to edit HDTV
signals woth 3D video effects, I would be impressed.

It just seems to me a Netbook or modified cell phone ccould control your SDR radio.

Perhaps when SDR radio's use powerfull 64bit-byte slice processing to control, modulate, and demodulate a self conained SDR, I will buy it.

Seems to me power SDR is just a controller IC that then tunes/adjust the SDR stages on the radio it self.

The Yeasue FT-2000 was a big flop becuase of poor programming. Poor SDR software upgrades. They lied about the specs to boot!!! The MANDITORY ROOFING FILTER
was fixed, and was far too wide.

If flex made a radio that had knobs with an option of a PC to reprogram or update software of the SDR radio's......perhaps they will met with less resistance.
Enjoy your radio, as I will do more waiting. The TS-950SDX is considered one of the best DSP enhanced analog radio made.
I got burned with an early Ten-Tec pegasus quisi-sdr radio. So my reaons to be skeptical are grounded in fact.

73 and enjoy being a test pilot for the next generations of ham radio's.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N4BFD on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

The PowerSDR program that FlexRadio and other SDR TRX's use, processes the modulation, demodulation, filtering and such real time, and is not just a "control program" for the rig.
While I am on the air I usually have several things going on at once, the notion that you need some sort of dedicated PC to do this just does not hold water with me.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA1M on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

> So the SDR program is not processing any RF. Rather a
> small program is controlling the parameters of ASPIC
> chips.

> If SDR radio's had as complex real time tasks as my
> overclocked 3.6ghz quad core pentium I use to edit HDTV
> signals woth 3D video effects, I would be impressed.

You seem to be under the impression that SDRs are simply radios which use a computer-based user interface. The computer UI is incidental in a SDR, such as a Flex.

The "radio" itself is really just a DDS, mixer and ADC and DAC. In receive, the DDS and mixer convert the incoming RF down to a 48kHz or 96kHz baseband, and the ADC converts that into a 24-bit stream of quadrature-sampled data. From that point on, the computer does all signal processing in the digital domain, including filtering, demodulation, and noise reduction. On transmit, the reverse occurs, using the ADC.

SDR is a completely different way to implement a radio, accomplishing in software what was once done physical circuitry. It is not, and has nothing to do with, computer control.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by N9DG on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

“Seems to me power SDR is just a controller IC that then tunes/adjust the SDR stages on the radio it self.”

That is patently incorrect. PowerSDR does process the sampled data, in the case of the Flex (and most other PC based SDR's) there is no “processing” of the sampled signal data in the radio hardware that is attached to the computer. The supporting circuitry in the radio hardware itself is primarily confined to controlling the DDS and switching in the RF front end, and TX filters for the appropriate frequency ranges. The radio hardware's other purpose is to do the needed A to D and D to A conversions, that's it.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I am man enough to say....Thank You for the clarification.

The theory is sound of course. So the computer has the output of a widebband A/D converter on RX. The computer does all your modulation/demodulation.
The data stream is kind of like a digital IF containing I and Q quadrature.

I knew this was the case with cell phones and some of the new mil spec radio's.

Enjoy ham radio as you like it. The FT-2000 and Pegusus/Jupitor did not fairly represent state of the art.

However, human nature is such that attraction works far better than extreme promotion.
There must be some reason why Harris offers all SDR radio's and analogue enhanced with SDR.
Perhaps if some creative company made a 10-80M 100W
SDR radio that sold for the same as an ICOM-718........more SDR radio's would be used by newbies and OTs. Of course it should be as a plug-n-play rig.

The SDR-5000 is not for the new ham. Or does it come with a set of decent algorythms on CD?
I am just taking the devils advocate. Also many OT's like radio's that glow or do not need a computer.

I certainly will buy a cheapo kit and mod it. Do most like the SOFTROCK? Is there a developers kit?
All recommendations will be appreciated. Under $100-200 is what I can spend these days for a experiment.

Money is tight these days. Many of the anti-SDR compliants are from those that are very happy with their current rig. Trying to Bully any ham by calling them a ludivite or hard core reactionary is simply wrong. A turn off. Many feel burned by the FT-2000 screw ups. The JA offerings are not getting anyones fancy. I would love to see American companies dominate ham radio. They sure used too!!!

Perhaps the big buyers for SDR rigs will be those that can write source or compiler code for a living.

Do the better SDR rigs meet the low -33db spec in TX.
SDR would sell more if they make commercial specs or close.

I am still going to see what comes out.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AB2CD on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I’d like to thank all of those who engaged the topic of SDR with civility.

The article was written to foster an open discussion about trying something that is in the author’s view, “cutting edge” rather than knocking box knob radios.

This article was NOT written by the marketing department of Flex, nor was it written by someone who is "hip" or computer savvy.

It was written by a ham that was rather apprehensive about combining his favorite hobby with the one piece of technology that causes him a great deal of frustration from time to time. I thought I would share my experience with others who are also apprehensive. I'd hate for them to miss out on the chance of experiencing a truely great radio.

I’d like to invite you to take a look at my station on QRZ. I personally resent the comments suggesting that I and others who operate Flex radios are appliance operators and not innovators. I'm sure that my shack looks more like the laboratories of Faraday, Tesla, Armstrong and Marconi than most of those posting comments.

I work with lots of young people and for the record, they show little interest in learning about ham radio when they are given the opportunity to operate a box radio with knobs, but put them in front of a Flex and they light up with excitement. Could it be that the Flex is simply a better demonstration of a radio receiver? Employing both a tactile and visual interface, could it be that the Flex is far more interactive and exciting?

I don’t doubt there will be other articles about SDR posted here in the future. Hopefully, there will be more comments from those who have actually operated a SDR radio like the Flex.

If anyone has any questions about my experience with the Flex please don’t hesitate to write me. If you live in the Atlanta area you are most welcome to visit and operate the Flex for yourself.

73’s Jim

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WB2WIK on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

>RE: Don't Knock It! Reply
by AB2CD on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
I work with lots of young people and for the record, they show little interest in learning about ham radio when they are given the opportunity to operate a box radio with knobs, but put them in front of a Flex and they light up with excitement. Could it be that the Flex is simply a better demonstration of a radio receiver?<

::Good point, and we need a youthful infusion to keep the hobby alive. What I've found works better than anything else to raise interest and curiosity about ham radio with youngsters is to demonstrate Morse code to them. They are fascinated by this, like it's a new invention. When I tell them it's been around for 150 years, they can't believe it.

Every kid I've ever brought into the shack (mostly friends of my own kids) wasn't particularly interested in hearing DX on SSB. When I went to CW and made a contact, almost everyone reacted: "What the heck is that? That's cool."

WB2WIK/6

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Keep up the good work with getting kids into technology/engineering.

Excellent exchange of info. NYC is IMOD and RFI on steroids. I had nothing but misery with a pre-curser to the SDR used in cell phones to mil radio's.

I found the Pegasus to be the 2nd worst rig I owned.
The highly touted software ugrades went to a 3erd party.

One thing Elecraft does is make their rigs ham band only RX. Much tighter front end filter are used.
That would be on my must list. An SDR that can vary the bandwidth of the front end way before the wideband A/D converter.(the digital equivalant of an analogs rigs L.O/mixer.

The K2 was able to get away with single conversion and use many monolithic filters ditributed around the radio. Most analog rigs use the 8 pole filter.

The concept of changing all the parameters of the entire radio is very disirable. I would guess a mostly software radio would not need repair/alignment.
Only time will tell. ONE THING ALL HAMS HATE......SENDING A RIG BACK FOR A COMPLEX REPAIR. I repair and mod only sections of a radio, I know well.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 13, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Trying to get new, hip, younger people inducted into a hobby thats mostly grumpy old farts? C'mon thats a hard sell!!!
Myabe this flex stuff may help to get younger people into the hobby but once an OF grumps to them about the "dumbing down of the hobby" will the new person stay in the hobby? Hmm.............

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 13, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I do not think any OT would tell a child how they are dumbed down.

The kids that write the computer virus's are not dumb, just highly misdirected. They usually get a top salary job after their legal problems are over.

It is also a fact that we ae born with a great excess of nuerons. Nuerons located in the CNS do not replicate like skin or other tissue.

So think about this....Your being dumbed down(at a molecular level) Nuerons may start to die off as early as 8 years old.
Depending on your life style and genetics, thousands of brain cells just die off. Fortunitly the brain has plasticity. Other unused brain cells get recruited to replace a high neuron loss in the case of major brain trauma.

Who knows, perhaps some wizz kid will look at an old A or B ticket test and say....Thats it!
Speaking for myself and a few others, I got all my Ham and commercial exams out of the way by the time I was 17 or so. Except for calc 2, I found the material I learned for Extra and 1st phone was repeated in my EE classes.

When I returned to an engineering university for a masters and perhaps a Phd at the age of 42....echhhh.
I was one of 4 engineers born in the U.S. of A. When I got my BSEE back in 1982, we all worked and studied together. Graduating sigma cum luada was from all the team work studying.
Every alphabet agency, who's who in defense contracting, and many others wanted EE's with RF experience. I ended up working in TV. More bohemian atmosphere. My entire graduating class got good jobs.

I went back to a University at the age of 42,(20 years later) because I heard a Masters degree is worth 45% more than a BS IN SCIENCE. In NYC, a Masters is required to teach as well.
I saw all the foreign exchange students getting their Phd at the age of 24???!!!!!! I sure felt like a huge jerk. ALL THE VISA STUDENTS STUDIED TOGETHER IN THEIR NATIVE TONGUE. THEY WOULD GIVE DISINFORMATION TO THE TOKEN AMERICAN STUDENTS. I did pass with just slightly above the required B average. Did a year of Post grad work, I decided I was in over my head for a Phd in Biomedical engineering or existential philosopy for that matter!!!!!!!

We do live in a youth based culture. I was told that the space race made engineering a good field to be in. Many of them had to get lower paying jobs after all that ENRON/Fanny-gin-mill-may whzt ever gobbligook
is! I sure know I did not want to bail out execs flying high in cesnna gulfstream fives.
Perhaps the next generation will be wiser. I sure hope the kids get lambasted with current events!!!!!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W3JKS on September 13, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Has anyone hear seen or used one of the new DZ Kit radios (the Sierra)?

http://www.dzkit.com

I ran across their website a few days ago. It looks like a LOT of fun to construct, especially since a lot of the surface-mount device mounting appears to be done in advance.

I printed out the construction manual to read tonight! I love that old Heathkit look. My second receiver was a Heathkit and my first transmitter was a Knight Kit.

It's been forty years, but I still love to build gadgets. Over the years, its' grown to a Ford F-600 full. I'm building a 100-watt UHF ATV system right now. :-)

73s,
john W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 13, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I wonder what the diehard Drake, Collins, Swan, and Heathkit guys think of these SDR rigs? :^P

RE: Don't Knock It!

by KC2WI on September 13, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Having a IC-746Pro and a IC-7000, I can say SDR is the wave of the future. For the most part they are superior to pure analog radios. I am sure the Flex radios are great and I wish I could have that kind of programming and setup flexibility with my Icoms. However, I do not and probably never will want to operate my radio primarily with a mouse and keyboard, except possibly if I want to do remote control/access. I spend too much work time on a computer. I like the knobs.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 14, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

The die hards of the classics will continue to use their classics. Sure, they may toy around with a cheap SDR devopers kit. I own a few Drakes. One of my TR-7's, I might replace some of the older circuits with cheaper, smaller and better direct digital chips. Except for the final amp, I can see a choice or using your vintage HEADEND and an SDR retrofit. Perhaps some will build an SDR rig in the case of a collectors radio.

Seems possable. If the SDR part justs replaces a DDS,frot end, 1st mixer , the Last freq. converter in the analogue TX rig. Why not, somebody cleaver, offer a parallel retrofit. The circuits are far less complex. food for thaught or not gave a hoot about.
The Classics hold on to their value. Well some do. Drake and Collins are collectables.
Heathkits have sentimental value to the builder. Heathkit twin 3-500z amps still command top bux on ebarf.
A smart ham(Harbach) makes modern replacement superior part kits. The SB-220/HL-2200 work just as well as a $3000 AMP that use exensive Hyersile tranfromers. $250 in modern parts/CIRCUITS gives the old SB-220 heaths better specs, optimised bias, aand the lower voltages used for keying and ALC.

The Drake museun has a TR-7 with DDS, speeh proc, varaiable TX with, a stable dual freq VFO. The kicker is the LNA RX pre-amp-amd notch.(the latter 2, one had to by the R-7 RX.
In this uncertain economy, perhaps many hams will start u cottage business's. SDR circuits usually are more compact. Perhaps retrofiting analogue rigs with either either SDR replacemets or dual technolgy rebuilt rigs may be yet another future for older rigs.
Hey, we are supposed to recycle anyway! The OT will still have his old rig or boot up the netbbook crazy glued to his C line!

The programmability of the attacted PC will give infinite BW choices. Adaptive alogorythms for QRM.N and other noise reduction. Perhaps emulation of cleaner SSB as well as all digital or what ever new modes get invented. Perhaps ALE, and public key singars
the mil. uses, is a cakewalk to emulate. Auto Matic Link Establishment with non secretive frequency hopping will allow hams with roundtables and skeds to coexist with the contester or CQer.

The FCC wants hams to go digital voice or narrow band SSB that fits in 1.5kc bw. Perhaps ham rigs will meet commercial specs. with more computer power.
FM is slated to be in the FM mode. FM will be limited to 2.5KC deviation. Does not bother me. Chances are you may have experienced narrow FM. The OM with the HT t far away from his mouth is a crude example.

The same way you hear AM die hards trying full plate modulation on 75M. Poor bastards! You do have to admire their moxie. With SDR perhaps we can all just get along! :)

Don't Knock It!

by W3DCB on September 14, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I do not have a Flex, but I do operate remotely with my Yaesu FTdx9000D and FT-897; Icom IC-7800; and Kewood TS-2000. There are so many issues to be overcome in setting up a remote station that can reliably work remotely without always having someone at home to turn this or that or re-boot the computer, etc. I have had to install a video/audio server to be able to view my spectrum displays. I found that it is hard to just tune around remotely without the use of spectrum displays. A camera gives me a view of my linear and auto antenna tunner meters without which I would just be guessing about power out, etc. Audio mixers and splitters had to be added for reliable good quality audio to and from the computer. Have been working on the project for several months and I am having a ball...This is just like running an SDR. Some day I will probably go all the way with a Flex!
Daniel Baral
W3DCB

Don't Knock It!

by N3LKA on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Buy what you can afford. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge, I've driven them all, and they all get you there. Same thing with radios, they'll all let you talk.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

One big factor overlooked. Money is tight for many hams
these dsys..

Many msy opt for "A Shack In a box'' I see one can get an ICOM-7i8 for $600 new.
Rigs thst sre todays equavalants of a TS-520, FT-101 and the Drake TR-4CW will be in demand as well as the time proven
For under $1000, Many new hams just want a rig they can plug and play!! No progrsmming, no External PS, and built in ATU. On air, 10 minutes after. A little audio DSP will do, again built in.

Perhaps a simplified line of SDR starter rigs that uses a $200 Netbook can offer the new Ham, the best of both worlds.

73 from the time snd freq. domaian.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by KC2RGW on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

The trouble with SDR today is that it doesn't include artificial intelligence. Until it can solve the problem of users who won't read or understand instruction manuals, it is doomed.

Doomed I tell ya.

This has been a case study in stories with details that those who truly understand the topic covered can immediately see as a user fault. Knobs, SDR, they all have manuals. Read them. Many comments on both sides outlined that the user didn't know how to operate the rig.

The most valid arguments against SDR in summary so far

1) I didn't read the manual
2) I'm afraid of computers
3) I don't understand antenna systems and RFI issues

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K2WH on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

RE: Don't Knock It! Reply
by SWL2002 on September 10, 2009

A big problem with some (most?) Amateurs adopting SDR is that Ham Radio is pretty much an Old Fart hobby. Many of these Old Farts are pretty set in their ways, unable to learn or accept new things, and resistant to any change in the way they have been doing it for many years. Too bad for them... they are missing out.

Bob

Bob, you are SO wrong. Ham radio is NOT about having the newest radio or the newest technology. It's about operating a radio and talking to people. My Hallicrafters or Swans do just that and oh BTW, they do it the same way the so-called Flex radio does. With RF. A transmitter is a transmitter. A radio is bought and sold on its bells and whistles. In other words its receiver.

K2WH

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Its hard to call a 35 year old ham (myself) an old fart. My wife says i dabble in an old fart hobby though! :-)

RE: Don't Knock It!

by VA3MW on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

What kills me is those that have an opinion of how good it is or isn't and they have never tried it. But then again, most of them still have a rotary (pulse) phone. In fact, I'll bet their cell phones have a rotary dial!

too funny -- go ahead -- flame away

Mike

RE: Don't Knock It!

by K9FON on September 16, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Hey, there isn't a thing wrong with a rotary phone! As long as it is in a museum!:-P
I wil never give up my cell phone, internet, Ipod, or my MP3 players.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by AB2CD on September 18, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Thanks Mike!
With your comment “What kills me is those that have an opinion of how good it is or isn't and they have never tried it” you punctuated a well intended article to encourage the exploration of a new way to modulate and demodulate radio waves. I remain steadfast in my belief that most operators who try the Flex will want one as their primary radio. It is an outstanding piece of communication equipment. I am always ready to help should anyone have questions. The camaraderie of this group of operators is like nothing I have ever seen in our hobby. New ideas, new operators, experienced hams with a renewed passion for the hobby…it’s all very very good.

Jim AB2CD
Atlanta

Don't Knock It!

by XE1GXG on September 21, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Spelling and syntax check, please.

Don't Knock It!

by XE1GXG on September 21, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Spelling and syntax check, please.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 22, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

OK, those that likw SDR radio'd are OK. Those that get on the air by repairing an analog rradio are OK.
Those of us that are independant thinkers, Have an anolgue radio on the aie now, SIMPLY DO NOT LIKE A BRAND OR CONCEPT RAMED DOWN OUR GUTS.......ARE OK TOO!

I DO NOT THINK ANY OF YOU FLEX-NATZIS would refuse to opertate on a Collins S line, TS-950SDX, or Harris RF-3200, or some other radio?

Ohh, all those knobs......Analogue radio's also have AFTER MARKET modules or simply add a sound card I/O,s.. Kenwood did RF/IF DSP with the TS-870, some on the 950SDX, and the TS-850 have jacks for adding possible SDR add ones.

Many felt very burned with the Trn TEC Pegasus(not a true all SDR radio). In Fact my 15 Year old TS-950SDX can be operated total 70MHZ base band TX/RX. IN OTHER WORDS....SOME OLDER RADIO'S SAW SDR AS A FUTURE OPTION.

GOING 70HMZ BASEBAND ALLOWS MY OWN CPU CONTROLLED RADIO.
The radio was not out long emough for this option to be exploited yet.
Perhaps somebody is, and mght have a patent pend.
Check out some dude, that did rebuild his entire Vintage Drake TR-7. Most of it is to make the R-7 obsolete. He did add some SDR. He is working on a computer interface now.

OK, so you did not replace the 1st rf mixer and DDS injection L.O. for a digital front pont end. Add buffers and IF Jacls for 1st, IF, 2nd IF, and audio stages. Many pre SDR radio's added baseband jacks for monitring anf future digital improvements.

I have 1000X more respect for a Ham that can design his own
IF/baseband pcie-x(1-16) interface board for his computer.
Some of us have that knowledgle as well as knowing the insides and outs of analog rigs..

IF somebody did produce a $600 card and software and external HPA, AND AD IT PROGRAMMABLE IN C, FORTRAN, OR BASIC......I WOULD BUY IT NOW!!!!

YOU FLEX HEADS SHOULD HAVE RESPECT FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO TRY ANYTHING, OR BUILD THEIR OWN! (or modify) This hobby has a good reputation for that!

I seen what went down with Pegasus and the FT-2000 and been a HAM FOR OVER 3O YEARS TO KNOW WHAT IS WHAT!!!!!! I used to sell Ham rigs when I was earning my BSEE. I have see and know the trends as well as both technologies FORTES and LimitATIONS!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 22, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

SRI FER ALL SPL MSTKES AND CONREXT ERRORS. Check out the rebuild of a TR-7 with modern parts at the Drake Museum. It works and SDR for some analogue rigs are works in progress..

Problem is that there are no agreed software or baseband/IF standards for Ham radio.

The Cheap SDR chips for cellphones are addressing that problem. However, nobody here can be forced in to socialised radio. HI-HI

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA1M on September 22, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

"Flex-Nazis"???

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 22, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I do own somw SDR equipment. I still take the point that the SDR radio's for commercial use are good. Only the serviceman has any real reprogramming.

One must be able to write adaptive algorythmes. The better programmers/PROGRAMMING as well as digital circuit responce or either compacted away on a Digital aspic. Cell phones use I&Q for years now.
Even the old 800mhz analogue phones were SDR.

The military uses tools like ALE (autoumatic link establishment). So SDR parameters for each SDR stage is done in real time. The simple kicker, try a TS-2000 SDR's AGC. It is in its 3erd revision. It still sux.

IMO: The Best DSP is your brain. Changing band conditions, QRN. I do agree adaptive SDR would work best as a universal noise blanker.
The TS-950SDX did that with the 2nd RX to sample the noise, then blank width accordingly.{hidden menu function)

The best mods come out, only after a radio has been out for a while!!!
This is can be done easier in SDR of course.

Yes, I have used SDR technology on Ham and commercial applications!
It seems when a function has to be varied in real time SDR will win.
However when there is time to optimise, you cannot knock a HAMS skill in adjusting IF BW, PBT, AGC,ATT,Pre-amp gain. If your SDR controlled mic. eq. circuit and adjust upper and lower cut off than you......You do not have a good station monitor/2nd rx/or hear a recvrding of yourself.

SDR WILL WIN, I concede that. I will not be miiffed to buy the SDR 250,000DLX with fries version in a few years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by WA2JJH on September 22, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I do own somw SDR equipment. I still take the point that the SDR radio's for commercial use are good. Only the serviceman has any real reprogramming.

One must be able to write adaptive algorythmes. The better programmers/PROGRAMMING as well as digital circuit responce or either compacted away on a Digital aspic. Cell phones use I&Q for years now.
Even the old 800mhz analogue phones were SDR.

The military uses tools like ALE (autoumatic link establishment). So SDR parameters for each SDR stage is done in real time. The simple kicker, try a TS-2000 SDR's AGC. It is in its 3erd revision. It still sux.

IMO: The Best DSP is your brain. Changing band conditions, QRN. I do agree adaptive SDR would work best as a universal noise blanker.
The TS-950SDX did that with the 2nd RX to sample the noise, then blank width accordingly.{hidden menu function)

The best mods come out, only after a radio has been out for a while!!!
This is can be done easier in SDR of course.

Yes, I have used SDR technology on Ham and commercial applications!
It seems when a function has to be varied in real time SDR will win.
However when there is time to optimise, you cannot knock a HAMS skill in adjusting IF BW, PBT, AGC,ATT,Pre-amp gain. If your SDR controlled mic. eq. circuit and adjust upper and lower cut off than you......You do not have a good station monitor/2nd rx/or hear a recvrding of yourself.

SDR WILL WIN, I concede that. I will not be miiffed to buy the SDR 250,000DLX with fries version in a few years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Don't Knock It!

by GW0DIV on September 22, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

How about add on USB classic rig fascias? You could be using your SDR with say a Halicraft, Swan or even say an FT-101ZD mk3 op panel!!

Rhys
GW0DIV

Don't Knock It!

by N5LRZ on September 22, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

What a hell of a lot of people who own modern amateur radio equipment do not know is that their modern radios are basicly nothing more than a cumputer anyway.

A simple look at the new radios of today shows a huge number of computer menu steps. Seldom do we ever turn a knob to do a task. We punch a butten and pull up a computer screen and make selection.

YET the ol cogers still refuse to embrace the NEW Technology of Digital Communication for Amateur Radio as the Gold Standard. The old cogers still cling to that old archaic analog.

BUT there is hope. The ranks of pure digital aka PSK aka RTTY aka Olivia etc modes completely generated by computers is growing. Analog image and digital image modes aka SSTV and Easy Pal are growing in ranks so there is hope that one day people will look at a mic and declare 'What the hell is this damn thing?'.

RE: Don't Knock It!

by W4KVW on September 24, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Give me a REAL RADIO with REAL KNOBS & REAL BUTTONS & I'm HAPPY just as long as it's an "ICOM" of course! }:>) I have rig control with my ICOM 756 PROII & a CI-V cable but MOST of the time I turn the VFO by hand.

Clayton
W4KVW

RE: Don't Knock,. learn it, stilll studying it.

by WA2JJH on September 25, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

If your rig has DDS and DSP,that is not SDR. However an SDR rig will have DDS and DSP in it. The DDS may have no connection with the computer.

We have been inching towards it. I do not want a ha radio to be just an "APP", a PCI-X board, and a CD of code to be my primary radio.

I guess I just have to compare a TR=7, 0r TS-950SDX.
(The SDX has one DSP IF,, and audio, against another SDR pre-curser) the Ten Tec Pegasaus.(A LATER PRECURSER TO SDR) The PEGASAS LOSSES BIG TIME!!!!!

SDR got its fans. Count me out, until I can write my own SDR code on a stamp basic computer. :))))s

RE: Don't Knock,. learn it, stilll studying it.

by VA3MW on September 25, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Sure you can!! How about putting your money with your mouth is and showing us that basic stamp.

No wonder the rest of the world doesn't like American's for the most part (and, some of my best friends are from south of the border).

Look, no one is telling you this is what you have to do. You guys are just great a finding fault with just about everything. I sometimes wonder just how you get up in the morning! LOL No wonder the US economy is so screwed up.

Is this not about Ham Radio?

Is this not about technology?

Is this not about pushing the RF technology envelope?

If we followed all the negative analogy here, you guys would still be running with your National NCX3 drifting all over the place and trying to find 6146B (or W's) just to get enough RF out to be heard.

Right from the beginning, it was stated that this wasn't for everyone, and it never has been.

I challenge anyone to provide some actual tangible discussion to this (some have, and that is great). The rest of you can go back to using NiCad batteries on your 3 pound motorola brick cell phone.

Go ahead... flame away!

RE: Don't Knock,. learn it, stilll studying it.

by VA3MW on September 25, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

One thing I forgot to add.....

It is amazing how many experts there are out there that know everything about everything, but they have never actually touched, used, measured, experienced what they are debating about.

It is all about the facts. You don't have the experience, you don't have the facts!

Everyone have a great day and good DX!

RE: Don't Knock,. learn it, stilll studying it.

by WA2JJH on September 25, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

I speak from facts,a few engineering degree's. Yup had to do a number of grad school reports.

Who ever said.,...............Can you even draw a tube or mOSFET AMP OR USED PROGRAMS LIKE LABVIEW/MATLAB WITH RF MODULE SYNTHLINK APP?

RE: Don't Knock,. learn it, stilll studying it.

by WA2JJH on September 25, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

oH, NOW ITS US VS CANADA EH! ENOUGH, HAVE A BALANCED IFE. SCHMUCK;) OR SHOULD I SAY KNUCK! :(

EJECT,EJECT,EJECT!!!!!!!!!

RE: Don't Knock,. HECK WITH YA

by WA2JJH on September 25, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Pay $600 for the pro-version of MATLAB. It is a universal computer laungauge(like fortran) Check out NUT-&-Volts mag.

A multiband CW rig that you program your stamp basic aspics.

The 40M receiver I built was decent. With Matab their are thousands of sample outboard circuits, run by a stamp basic controler.

I HAD TO PURCHASE MATAB FOR OTHER PROJECTS. One of the was an software defined C.a.t SCANER. We used a array of 2 wavelength laser diodes. result..........
a transdermal scanner. in 3D. On the monitor was an image of a skin sample.
Yes, Matlab has thousands of stock circuits. The fast fourier transform program always for man sftware run devices where a 2D or 3D imaqe are required.

I cant send you Matlab code for my 40M RCVR. Matlab is a patented programming platform.

We did program in a fortran/basic like enviorment.

Since, you cursed all Americans, thats all I feel like proving ANYTHING. I am sure yoou can bruss u on a DDS VFO. That was an of QST project.

Buy the under $200 stamp basic starters kit. OHHH, I am SUPPOSED TO HAVE COMPLETE PART SOURCES FOR YOU TOO!!!!??????>>??

RE: Don't Knock,. HECK WITH YA

by WA2JJH on September 26, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

THE REASON FOR APHGnniatNS((f-SELLING knuxkle head.
VE3A--

WE HAD ASAMA BEN LUADIMUM(GET THE INSIDE U RECEPTOR JOKE. OF COARSE NOT!!!!!!! MMORON!!!!!!!!!!

BEN LAUDIMUM WAS TRAPPED AT THE BATTLE OF TORAQ-BORAH
BARF LUDN HAD 5000 OF HIS TOP TERRORISTS.

ONE BUNKER BUSTER BOMB WOULD HAQE ENDED THE WAR AND FIXED OIL EXTORTION ONCE AND FOR ALL.

I SHALL NOT BORE YOUR CANADIN HAM HEAD WITH HOW THE N BOMB IS A SMALL FUSION REACTION. INSTEAED OF MEGATONS
AND PU-239 WITH 10,000 YEAR HALF LIFE.....THE ULTRA ENERGISED ELECTRONS TRAVEL DISTANCE AND LIGHT SPEED PARICALS HUNDREDS OF FEET X=RAYING ALL LIFE WILL IONISE
ALL CARBON BASED LIFE.
The neutrino based radition has a tiny 3 day half llife. Drill for oil that was 45% THE US OF A'S BY 1958
AGREEMENT IN A WEEK.

JUDGEMENT DAY IS ONE DAY AS PROMISED/ THE US TAKES THE OIL LEGALLLY BY THE SUADI AGREEMENT.

ENERGY EXTROTION STOPS. ALL THE OTHER OPEC SHITHEADS
ARE GIVE FAIR MARKET VALUE. EVERYODY MAKES MONEY AND WORD PEACEB IS OBTAINED BY THE US USING ONE FISSION FUSSION-FISSION REACTION.

I WOULD A ENERGY LAWYER TO BACK UP THE 51%-49% 1950's deal with these reptiles(ya gotta admit Iras resident and KKKHUDAFTY acted sub humaniod.

Whats the matter mr I hate america VE3?""""""
burned by facT And logic again......SCHMUCK!!!! :)

Don't Knock It!

by N3LKA on October 9, 2009 Mail this to a friend!

Well, it's all personal choice, but if we we're all not to embrace new technology, we'd still be beating out code on jungle drums.

I use a radio that I can afford. If I can talk to people reliably, that's all I worry about.

Brian
N3LKA

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