My Quest for a New Antenna
Frank (N2QQF)
on
September 12, 2009
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My quest for the ultimate antenna?
I like other hams have had the opportunity of having a new tower installed on my property. Well, to be quite honest it is my second tower but who’s counting. I have a 60’ (Rohn 25) tower that houses a TH6DX Thunderbird (6 element tri-bander) that has four(4) elements on 10 meters and three(3) elements on 15 & 20 meters. This antenna is a pretty decent mid sized beam sitting on a 24’ boom and had 33’ elements (max). I had an issue last year with the Beam/Yagi that forced me to get a crane to access the antenna to do some maintenance. I needed a crane to access the antenna but because of it’s location and the way it was mounted it did not safely allow for it to be climbed. I have been in the wireless communications field for about 10 years so, occasionally I have access to such tools such as cranes, lifts and not to mention all sorts of commercial test equipment.
The issue I had was that because of the heavy rains we experienced during the prior months; the weight of the crane caved in my driveway. I will say the wife was not the least bit happy when she came home. As we sometimes say “It is, what it is”. Somehow, she did not find my logic too amusing and I can’t really blame her. BTW... the antenna also did not get the service needed at the time because it was too unsafe to set the outriggers on the crane extended without fear of the crane toppling over when fully extended/ This issues and a flurry of other issues which I rather not discuss because it will turn this topic into a sequel prevented the easy repair.
After all was said and done and the driveway was repaired. I got to thinking and with all that happened I decided I wanted a new tower that I would be able to service as well as my antennas when needed and not have to rely on cranes and/or climbing. This led me to purchase a new 55’ crank up / tilt over lattice tower (HDX-555) by US tower. I decided I wanted to not have to be at someone else’s mercy so I bought the tower. I received the tower this past Mothers Day (‘09) and since everyone happened to be at my home celebrating mothers day I decided to put all the men to work. I just recently had all the work completed which of course consisted of lots of cement (6Yds.), steel forms and steel rebar cages for the footing.
This was a painstaking process but finally completed. In the interim I was looking for of course a new antenna to sit on top of the new tower figuring new tower needed a new antenna. So, I crossed the point in which every amateur asks himself, “What Antenna Should I buy”? I started looking at a few candidates and settled on a few likely possibilities. I looked into Opti-beam, which are magnificent antennas but due to the current US Dollar to Euro exchange rate I decided I would look else where. I kept reading all the wonderful boast of superior performance claims on many of the different manufacturers but decided I would do some of my own research too assist with my decision. I posted a few questions on the forums as well as picked the brains of a few guys that really had true knowledge of antennas.
So with the information I received and some reading, I was able to narrow my choices down to two antennas. One being the three (3) element SteppIR and the other was surprisingly a three(3) element Cubical Quad. I was fascinated by both very interesting antennas in their design. I understood the SteppIR and what it did and how it reached the resonance by utilizing motors to change the physical length of the elements. What I did not understand was how they over came the element spacing issue but I guess it seemed to work because everyone I spoke to using a SteppIR was blaring in and making all the contacts. I also thought about how I would repair and service my antenna if something decided to go south how would the repair be addressed?
I studied both antennas and found that with the SteppIR if I were to need to send my antenna or controller or motors back for repair this would be difficult and would most probably leave me antenna-less until repaired. I have been in the field for many years and what I have learned is the least amount of active components usually leave for less issues overall. Now, I am not saying that SteppIR is a bad antenna nor that is has any specific issues.I am merely saying I was concerned with in my opinion the amount of maintenance it might require or will require over time. Let’s face it active components have a lifespan. I was very interested in the Cubical Quad because it was a very basic design that could be easily repaired since it is fiberglass and wire and could usually be fixed quite easily if needed. I was in discussion one night with another ham who generously donated and old book he had on Quads. I read the history which was very interesting and facts on the design and performance of the Quad. I was absolutely fascinated by the claims made that it actually got me to do a little more reading and research on the topic. To my amazement there was not a whole lot of information available or I was just not looking in the right places. I did manage to find some interesting articles though but most of them were limited or did not give comparisons between quads and beams in the fashion I was looking for. I did some additional reading and I was even more puzzled as to why Quads did not seemed to be used much nowadays. I read the incredible claims of 30db F/B, full wave elements that were quieter than typical half wave elements typically found on Beams or Yagi’s? I also read that they had a very low take off angle which sounded to me they were absolutely the holy grail of DX antennas? I mean what more could you want, and to boot they did not require much height at all. So why is it that more hams were not using them, I wanted to know!
It almost seemed as if they were either forgotten or replaced with something better? Well, of course my curiosity got the best of me so I stared to do a little more reading and I found that the main reason they were not widely used was because of it structural design and sheer size. These Quads are big and they are three(3D) dimensional versus the traditional two(2D) dimensional beams. I will admit that I was reading and researching so much that I starting to go a bit stir crazy. I started to get hot and heavy and wanted to get my feet wet and see what the quad was all about. I figured that in life you need to take some risk and sometimes they pay off and sometimes you get stuck with a clunker. I hate to be the guy that talks about all these comparisons of antennas but he really has never tried any of them! You know the guy! The one on your local repeater that is misinforming the new guys and after a while everyone is an expert on the matterJ, meanwhile not one of them has ever had more than a simple ham-stick. I decided, I would call roger at Cubex Quads and ask some questions to help in my quell my fears. Cubex seems to be one of the only manufacturers or limited amount of manufacturers that still dealt with Quads. I spoke with Roger and he explained the design of his quad and what improvements have been made over time.
I was told many times over by many hams that the quad is a fantastic antenna until winter and Ice arrives and it is all over. I was concerned about this and spoke with Roger and he seemed to ease my concerns mentioning the reinforced design he used as opposed to the older style Quads. I also was fortunate enough to speak with a few hams in the northeast area that were running quads and have so for many years and they all stated they have never had an issue with their antennas even under ice loading conditions. So I decided that I would go ahead and purchase the Quad based on all the information I gathered from users, forums, books and reviews. I also decided that I would be willing to make the sacrifice of additional servicing if necessary to get an antenna that worked hopefully as well as everything I read claimed. After a few weeks the quad arrived as promised by Roger. When I opened the boxes I was simply amazed at how well all of the components were made and that everything was perfectly labeled for easy installation / assembly. This made the build go relatively easy but it was very, very time consuming to say the least. The reason was running each set of wires through the small holes on the spreader arms and the terminations.
I was assisted by a good ham friend of mine; Dave (KC2ILK) “the Ukrainian Slave” as he sometimes refers to himself. The build took us pretty much the entire day to build the antenna and mount it. After a few pints of sweat that poured out and a few cuts and scraps we finally managed to get it built. BTW, did I mentioned it started raining when we were mounting the elements to the boom on the tower? “yea….Not fun”. We finally managed to get it built but I still had another day or so of work to get everything in order i.e. rotor cables, antenna switches, grounds etc… which were finally finished and the antenna was ready for operation. I will inform you that I mounted a remote coax switch on the tower and independently feed each feed point, five in total; with a 75ohm matching stubs for each band. This went to the remote switch and has only one solid ½ feed line coming back into the shack. The benefits of independently feeding the elements as opposed to using a gamma match or phase box is that the antenna has better or increased F/B has as opposed to the matching network.
So, now the meat and potatoes of the story...
As I previously mentioned, I currently have a TH6DX on a tower at relatively the same height as the quad. Now because quads have full wave elements and have a relatively low take off angle allows for them to be mounted much lower than a traditional beam / yagi. You can have great results with a quad mounted 35’-40’ above ground where as a beam typically should be around 72’ AGL. This is another great factor about a Quad that is sometimes not known or overlooked. I decided to work a few stations and the first station I worked that evening was New Zealand. I received a great report 5-9+ which is one which I usually did not generally receive. I figured that maybe it was band conditions. I worked a few other stations and received very, very good reports 20-30db which was not what I was used to receiving. I decided to call it a night. The next day was Saturday morning and I got up to look at the DX cluster to see what is happening. I saw a few Japan, China and a Thailand station. I said let me see if I could hear them. To my surprise they were coming in pretty strong S7 – S9? Wow, could it be that the antenna was doing much better. I did not waste anytime and I made the contacts without issue except for China who I had issues with but come to find out I realized I did not have my amplifier on! DUH. He did hear me with a 100 watts from NY, so not too bad.
I made the contacts and decided to A/B them with the beam. Guess what, I could not hear them at all? I check to see if everything was ok and it was but I just was not hearing them. How could this be? I cant even hear them but why? Well I did some on air testing and A/B comparisons with a few stations and I constantly received reports of 2-3 S units better and sometimes more. Now, the antennas were at the same height and the beam has been working great but how could I not hear the stations that I am now hearing on the other antenna. I will tell you that Quads are significantly quieter than traditional beams. I live in a virtually noise free area in the mountains and I don’t even have road lighting so I typically never have a noise floor of more than S1 – S2. The benefits of a Quad in a low noise area really makes operating quite fun. I did a bunch of comparisons and the Quad won every time without exception. I am not one of those guys that claims everything I buy is great because I know that isn’t the case. I have bought some real clunkers with great expectations and they turned out to be the equivalent to an aluminum garbage can! “Hybrid Quad mini beam…..shall I say anymore”.
I was and still am amazed how good the Quad works in comparison. Now this is not to say there are not a great bunch of antennas out there that work well such as the SteppIR but The Quad is something that just worked out well for me so far. I worked a US virgin island station yesterday VP2VQ; whom most know as (George) and received a 25db report on the first call. I decided to call him again on the beam and realized that I was not beating out the pile up. In fact he was about 3+ S units lower in comparison to the quad. What an amazing antenna and experience I am having with my new tower but most of all my new antenna. I will voice again what has been drilled into many amateurs but few choose to listen. If you can or have the space to do so “Spend your money on your antenna system” there is no substitute to having a great antenna. I have worked five(5) new DXCC entities in the first three days of having the antenna. I did have noticeably lower received signals outside off the sides just past the beam heading but 90 degrees off the sides were better. So overall the F/B and side rejection is very good. For example; I was pointing towards panama SP@190 deg. And I was almost unable to hear a Florida station at 120deg. I certainly did not see this from any of my beams (6 – 3 element beams). This again is not to say the better beams from Optibeam and the like will not have the same results but from my experience I did not see this end result.
I wrote this article for the basis of sharing my ideas with someone that might have the same question of a traditional Beam / Yagi vs. a Quad. I hope you find this article informative as I know I was very frustrated when I look for some in depth comparisons and was not able to find any information. I will tell you that the claims of 30db F/B , low noise, low take off angle and a great antenna are very true. The only issue is space. You will need a decent amount of space to operate the baby. The Quad is very light but the foot print is rather large (18’ boom / 18’18’ square elements) and this is for the three element version which is compared to a 4 element mono-band beam for every band. If you are considering a new antenna and have space I would absolutely recommend the Quad. The Quads of today are not the same ones designed in the 60-70’s. The spreaders are made of strong and flexible fiberglass not the typical bamboo elements designed in yester-year.
Thanks for reading my article and I can be reached via QRZ if you have any questions or comments. I would be happy to share my experiences with anyone interested. I hope the story was not to long winded but I wanted to provide the whole picture so you could draw your own conclusions.
73 & God Bless (Frank : N2QQF)
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 12, 2009
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"Now because quads have full wave elements and have a relatively low take off angle allows for them to be mounted much lower than a traditional beam / yagi. You can have great results with a quad mounted 35’-40’ above ground where as a beam typically should be around 72’ AGL. This is another great factor about a Quad that is sometimes not known or overlooked"
That's because it simply isn't true. There is no way a quad at 35 feet has the same takeoff angle as a yagi twice that high. I'm not knocking quads in general, but this is an old myth that died (or should have) when modeling software became readily available.
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by ZENKI on September 12, 2009
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Quad antennas only work well in their owners minds.
The practical reality is that its very difficult to make a multiband quad work well that has uniform gain across all the higher HF bands.
Cebik analyzed quads to death and his modeling confirmed that its very difficult to make a decent multiband quad. He had a few good models, which would be the ones that I would choose if I was ever to build a quad.
Quads dont work better at low heights end of story. A good old wives tale.
To me the ultimate antenna is one that delivers 5 to 6 db gain over a dipole on all the higher bands. If you find this mythical antenna let me know I would like to buy one.
The biggest boost in antenna gain you can make is increasing your antenna height. Height equates to might, and probably buys you 10 db over the typical low antenna heights(30 to 40ft) Takeoff angle is where the game should be played not worrying about 1 or 2 db between various antennas. Nobody can measure it anyway, not with the typical crap S-meters found on most ham radio transceivers. I can assure you that putting your TH6 up at 90 feet will beat the pants off any super quad at 40 ft.
I would suggest you buy a copy of HF tribander Performance by N0AX and K7LXC. They have measured a quad antennas gain and compared it to several good tribanders which beat the pants off a quad. Wayne N6NB did similar tests and published his results in Ham Radio magazine. The average quad could not beat a simple TH2 tribander yagi.
If it was me personally I would look at one of the Force 12 or Optibeam antennas. They have accurate gain figures and these companies dont tell lies about their products. Alternatively I would be looking at investing in a higher tower 1 to 2 wavelengths above ground.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KA5ROW on September 12, 2009
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Quads are easy to build and are great antennas. Now the problem. Anywhere you can get ice storms, you do not want a quad. You may go 3 to 5 years, but eventually you will get a ice storm and the quad will be history
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N6HPX on September 12, 2009
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I would love to put one on my roof but heard there not too good in wind storms. The reason for the comment is when I am home I am operating from DU1 and they get lots of typhoons every year.
Any thoughts of that
73 from Larry
off saipan on a ship
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2QQF on September 12, 2009
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While your post may have some valid points. I can tell you that both antennas (TH6DX and the 3 element Quad) are at the same height of 65' and I will buy into the theory that the quad is newer therefore has less oxidation, no loss from traps etc... but the fact remains the performance of my quad is far better than the TH6DX. You can tell me about all the studies conducted with modeling software but the proof in my mind is what I am experiencing real world.
I can tell you from both personal and professional experience that what is sometimes modeled does not necessarily apply in the real world. While there may be inherit issues and sometimes exaggerated claims with quads, the sheer fact is that it works well for me. I might have had a different view if I owned what it is that you have up on your roof or tower too. I like the antenna it works well, I am working more DX than before and quite frankly it just works.
This will be my first winter so talk to me after the winter is in full swing to see if I still have the same opinion :)
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 12, 2009
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One reason quads are not vastly popular, and the main reason people "overlook" the great advantages claimed for quads, are the great advantages perpetuated by over-enthusiastic quad users are mostly greatly exaggerated myths.
A quad element electrically is two stacked 1/2 size end-loaded dipoles, spaced 1/4 apart. The stacking gain of a single FULL SIZE dipole at 1/4 wave is only just over 1 db in freespace. Get it near earth, and the gain becomes even less for most heights. Add additional elements in front or back, and that ~1 dB goes away, just as it does at most heights. Fold the element ends, as a quad does, and more of that gain is lost.
The end-result is we are lucky to break even with a full length dipole array like a Yagi.
Now there are some advantages at UHF or higher where feedline balance and feedline interface between a fat coax and thin element become problems. As a matter of fact all of the original data on a quad taken many years ago that showed "2 dB gain" were based on a flawed measurements by J. Kmosko, W2NLY and H. Johnson a few years after WWII. They had feedpoint errors on a 440 MHz reference dipole element feed they made, and that is where the "2 dB gain" of a quad actually came from.
Unfortunately once something is printed, even when wrong, it never goes away.
Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W1XZ on September 12, 2009
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Stations can't be heard on the beam that are workable on the quad at the same height? S units difference in signal. Something is wrong. Lots of good data on quads and yagis out there to read.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by G3LBS on September 12, 2009
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I have tried most Yagis and Quads over 50 years.
The spider quad is best for me and why not build your own? Want 6m? Go outside and put another loop on your 5 band quad for a few dollars. The boomless spider quad has optimum spacing all bands, unlike the SteppIR. Low angle radiation, wide bandwidth, very quiet against noise.
No tower - hang it form a catenary between trees -it's really lightweight. I can haul mine up and down in two minutes. Not many quads about? Try saying that to the Finns - those Finns are really clever and get a lot of ice. Yes it certainly separates the men from the boys.
W2/G3LBS
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 12, 2009
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Quads and Yagi antennas have been directly measured many times is reasonable comparisons. In all of these comparisons, the modeling and measurements closely agree.
I suggest anyone curious about measurements read 1979 issues of Ham Radio where Overbeck published Quad vs. Yagi comparisons. Also read
http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/woverbeck/antgain.htm
It's easy to "feel" one thing is better than another. This is why we have to use instant blind A-B comparisons or other scientific methods that remove emotion or feelings from results.
One thing is certain. When a huge investment in time, labor, or money goes into something there is always a good feeling. If you do not believe this, wax and clean your car and see how much better it feels to drive. Enjoy that good feeling because it is a real feeling, but don't consider it engineering data or science.
Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on September 12, 2009
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N2QQF: "the quad is newer therefore has less oxidation, no loss from traps etc..."
Well, there you have it. Don't forget that the feedline to the tribander is probably old too.
N2QQF: "but the fact remains the performance of my quad is far better than the TH6DX."
Not exactly.
The performance of *your* quad is observably better than the performance of *your* TH6DX on the bands *you* use.
Replace your existing TH6DX with a brand-new one and a brand-new feedline and you might - *might* - get different results.
Also note that your comparison, even if made with new antennas, would be a comparison of one model of quad vs. one model of Yagi, not a definitive comparison of the two antenna types.
Now if you REALLY want to compare antenna types, try this:
Build two monoband full size antennas for your favorite HF band, one a Yagi and the other a quad, with the same boom length and elements spaced and dimensioned for optimum gain. Adjust them using a field-strength indicator that's far enough away to avoid near-field effects but close enough not to depend on ionospheric propagation. Or do the same thing with modeling.
Then compare results.
N2QQF: "You can tell me about all the studies conducted with modeling software but the proof in my mind is what I am experiencing real world."
What you're experiencing is the comparison of a new quad to an old Yagi. And in that case, the quad is working better. That's great, it means the results justified the effort.
The problem is when that one result is extrapolated to include all antennas of a particular type.
N2QQF: "I can tell you from both personal and professional experience that what is sometimes modeled does not necessarily apply in the real world."
That's only true if there's something wrong with the model.
---
Some basic laws of antennas:
1) Antenna engineering is no less than 90% mechanical engineering and no more than 10% electrical engineering. For most amateur antennas, particularly large HF antennas, the percentages are closer to 95%/5%.
2) There are all sorts of antennas that look good on paper and which model well but are usually not practical to build or put up.
3) All practical antenna designs involve compromises. All practical multiband antenna designs involve multiple compromises. Whether the compromises are worth the multibanding is a matter of opinion and the particular situation.
4) The 'dynamic range' of the amateur radio bands from 160 through 6 meters is extreme. This means there are times when you can work the world with low power and a poor antenna, and times when you can hardly work anybody with a great antenna and full power. There are times when a simple antenna at a low height will outperform a big array up high - because of odd propagation. There are times when the small station will beat the big station. Etc. It is these surprises that keep the game intersting. But in each example, the latter case is the way to bet.
5) If nobody does something a certain way, there may be a good reason. If nobody knowledgeable does something a certain way, there's probably a very good reason.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W9OY on September 12, 2009
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It is clear that your quad is a better antenna than your beam, so enjoy your new antenna. I'm sure you had a good time building it. There is something super satisfying about building antennas and then having them perform.
I've built a couple of quads for different bands and my experience is they work about like 3 el beams
When it comes to quad mythology, I think old Clarence W9LZX did a pretty good sales job. At least he solved the corona problem in a very cleaver way.
73 W9OY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by VA3AJV on September 12, 2009
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Well as always, there are at leats two kinds of hams. The die hard Yagi users who swear that there is nothing better than their beam, and the other hams who have a quad and are getting excellent results. This thread seems to have a lot of Yagi users trying to bash the ham who wants to experiment and try something different. Frank (N2QQF), congratulations on the purchase of your new quad. I think you will continue to have excellent results with the antenna. I also use a 3 element Quad, a Gem Quad which is manufactured here in Canada and has had a great history. I bought mine from an estate of a dear friend who became a silent key 2 years ago. He had the Quad for many years with a lot of excellent Qso's and DX, great performance! Now, I am experiencing the same enjoyment from my Gem Quad, great signal reports and great DX! Now about the ice and wind. So far we have not had a big ice storm since I put my Quad on the tower, but we have had some strong winds, upwards of 50 mph and the Quad held up!! It is lightweight with the fiberglass spreaders and a 13ft boom, which is aluminum same as the spiders. Any antenna will eventually fail if the weather is strong enough. You can't tell me a huge beam with its massive span will survive a big ice storm untouched. The elements will collect ice just the same and the weight therefore will cause some damage. As for size, well I have seen some rather large beams as well so the size of my Quad is not an issue, it's comparable.
Just my thoughts, I have had great results with my Quad and I am happy with it. You go with what works in the real world. Great post Frank! If you need some further information give a shout or maybe we will catch up on the bands!!
73, Alan
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K0BG on September 12, 2009
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I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about which one is better; a yagi or a quad. However, I find it very interesting that quite a few have related the performance of their choice, by the number of DX log entries.
All I want to know is, how many DX entries equate to superior gain, how many equate to a better angle of radiation, and how many equate to a better front to back ratio?
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W1XZ on September 12, 2009
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I think it is 122 for phone and 74 on cw. Other modes are a little hard to figure out. Hope this helps, XZ
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N0AH on September 12, 2009
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No compromise Quads do work better than most trapped yagis but I don't know of a lot of serious contest stations using them over mono-band yagis, stacked yagi's, etc.........Most serious DX'ers I know put one up for a punch for multiband purposes.
If we are talking about one antenna over your typical roof at 50 feet, I think I would be happiest with a 6-30M log periodic or settle for a 10-20M with a shorter boom. They work fb and you don't have a garage size antenna sitting on your tower.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K6TPJ on September 12, 2009
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I have never seen convincing evidence that a Quad produces a notably lower angle of radiation vs. a typical yagi. I'd forget about comparing radiation angle and gain altogether and concentrate on structural considerations. (Structure you can measure- gain, F/B ratio, and take-off angle are kinda iffy for the typical Ham) From what I've seen, wind load is pretty close if similar boom lengths are considered.I will give the Quad the nod regarding bandwidth however -at least in my experience- when compared to a typical tri-bander.
I have never used a Quad, but have erected several for friends. They are difficult to erect and even more difficult to repair once in place. True, they have no traps, but I have never had a trap failure. I have seen quads come down due to ice/wind with a greater frequency than a comparable yagi. With that in mind, consider trap/element maintenance.
A slick thing to do with a yagi, that you can't do with a quad, is to mount the yagi on a set of "T" plates, with the arms of the T extending beyond the tower, maybe 18" off the mast. When properly machined, this allows the yagi to be pivoted parallel to the tower so that any element can be removed for servicing. (you can pivot either way) I machined the plates out of 7075 and had no problems with the system.
A yagi also makes it easier to stack a 2, 6, or in my case, 40 meter beam above the tri-bander.
Since I turned 60 my wife doesn't want me climbing a tower anymore, so I'm looking at crank ups myself.
I've been "looking" for several years, but to be honest my tuned doublet at 135' (God Bless Redwood Trees) seems to be working fine on all bands. When all is said and done, the higher the better, and I don't care what antenna you're running.
Regards,
Terry
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AC7CW on September 12, 2009
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An older ham once told me that he knew a writer that had two articles in the same magazine, one argued the Quad side and the other, with a pseudonym, argued the Yagi side... and that was in the mid 50's..... so this is an old argument..
In my thinking, if an argument can't be settled over a period of time then both sides are right... I'd try both antennas at any particular site and see what works...
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AC7CW on September 12, 2009
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An older ham once told me that he knew a writer that had two articles in the same magazine, one argued the Quad side and the other, with a pseudonym, argued the Yagi side... and that was in the mid 50's..... so this is an old argument..
In my thinking, if an argument can't be settled over a period of time then both sides are right... I'd try both antennas at any particular site and see what works...
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W3ULS on September 12, 2009
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I've been inactive for almost two years. What I'm interested in learning from active hams is how antennas of various types are performing now with zero sunspots?
For instance, is a dipole or G5RV strictly useless on 20 and above? Does one have to go for a beam nowadays in order to hear/work any DX? What about 80, 40 and 30? What antennas work?
I'm talking low power here, and a reasonably good east coast QTH.
Thanks,
John, W3ULS
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 12, 2009
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VA3AJV: "The die hard Yagi users who swear that there is nothing better than their beam, and the other hams who have a quad and are getting excellent results. This thread seems to have a lot of Yagi users trying to bash the ham who wants to experiment and try something different."
You're totally missing the point of the responses here. The issue isn't whether yagis work better than quads or vice versa. The issue is the ridiculous claims that get made for quads. Same takeoff angle at half the height?? Three S-units better signals?? Gimme a break.
I once homebrewed my own 3-band spider quad and liked its performance (I even still have the hub), but quads aren't the miracle antenna that people like N2QQF portray them to be. With two or three elements, they are simply relatively comparable in performance to a non-trapped yagi except with the disadvantage of some additional mechanical and size issues.
If N2QQF wanted to conduct a valid experiment, he should have spent some time trying to figure out why his trapped yagi was acting like a dummy load on both transmit and receive.
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 12, 2009
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W3ULS,
Your decent east coast QTH trumps anything I could put up for antennas here in Arizona. ;)
I'm no particular fan of G5RV's, but even with no sunspots you'll have DX fun on 20m and even 40m with dipoles or similar if you can get them up at a decent height, especially now that the fall months are approaching. And this winter, you should be able to do well fairly even on 80m to Europe.
73,
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W3LK on September 12, 2009
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The quad was designed by two american engineers from HCJB in Quito, Ecuador, to solve a particular problem - high power from their SW transmitters melting the ends of their Yagi antennas from corona discharge.
HCJB normally ran 50-100KW on their SW frequencies and the corona discharge at the high altitude literally melted away the tips of their beam's elements. This problem was solved with the Cubical Quad design.
There was no attempt to on their part to make a better antenna than the yagi, just one that would take the high power and not disintegrate.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by NN2X on September 12, 2009
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I spent at least 10,000 (USD) and three months, and using various manufactures from LIghtning Bolt, CUBEX QUAD, Mono Band (Yagi Hygain) to multiband...What a set up and test!
OK, Here is the play..
To TWO Towers at 65FT...
Lightning Bolt 5 Band Quad, 10, 12, 15, 17, 20Meter..24 FT Boom / 65FT Boom
Against Multiband Hygain..65 ft boom
No contest,A/B Test, Quad slammed.
Next Test
Mono Band to Mono Band
40FT Quad, and 36 FT Yagi
No real difference..
Here is the conclusion, Multiband 10 through 20, QUAD, Mono Band to Mono no real big difference.
Quad "DOES NOT HAVE A LOWER ANGEL" It seems to have a lower angel due to the quieting effect. If you have a an antenna, that acted as a lower angel, it would do better on long dx when compared to yagi, but it closed the band longer (Quad) regardless of short skip or long skip...Quad is just lower noise..(And this results in closing the band later when compared to Yagi)
Yes, 2db (Almost is better on Quad when compared to Yagi), but this is not the real factor, it is the ability to tune into the given spacing for each band, where as the Yagi is more difficult..
I am willing to bet though, using the Steppir, I would find it very similar to the Quad, due to fact it tunes on every band with only 50Khz
If I were to purchase an antenna today (Strickly) on performance it would be Steppir, (I would just buy a tower that would allow me provide maintenance due the mechanics
Best
Tom Wright, NN2X
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W3ULS on September 12, 2009
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Thanks, Dave. Long live the east coast!
John, W3ULS
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W0AEW on September 12, 2009
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"I worked a few other stations and received very, very good reports 20-30db which was not what I was used to receiving"
So after all that expense and trouble to establish such good and reliable communications, what did you talk about?
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WA1RNE on September 12, 2009
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"I had an issue last year with the Beam/Yagi that forced me to get a crane to access the antenna to do some maintenance."
>>> You told us about the problem with the crane and the damage to your driveway, but what was the issue with the TH6? I'd be very suspicious of the performance results, considering that the TH6 design has worked very well for many years.
How long ago did you install the TH6? Depending on the whatever the problem was last time, in addition, I would consider checking the integrity of the feedline to the TH6 first. Depending on the results, it still may need more work.
...WA1RNE
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by MACKAY3031 on September 12, 2009
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I suspect the huge difference you are seeing can come from 2 possible sources.Number 1, there may be a feedline issue or antenna problem with the yagi.Number 2, The claim of low angle radiation at low height is false for the quad...however quads have fat pudgy lobes that are more responsive to high angle signals than yagis.An optimal quad will probably have a tiny bit less gain than a yagi on an equal length boom but the fatter vertical response will let you work for a longer period of time than you can with a very sharp lobed yagi.This is a real advantage of the quad but it comes at the expense of mechanical complexity and relative fragility.
Yagis are better for absolute gain....but the sharp lobes can be a 2 edged sword.An antenna that responds to more angles in the vertical dimension can be a very real advantage on HF.I believe Cebic addressed this.He also addressed the fact that quads are made with wire...a poor choice for broad bandwidth.I built a gain optimized 3 element quad for 2 meters based on his modeling, and it works very well.I intend to build another out of 5/8 copper tubing based on his modeling as well.It will have a tiny, tiny bit more gain and considerably better bandwidth than my current model built out of #6 copper wire.
I like quads, and I am glad you are happy.I hope this helps you understand what you are seeing better.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by MACKAY3031 on September 12, 2009
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I suspect the huge difference you are seeing can come from 2 possible sources.Number 1, there may be a feedline issue or antenna problem with the yagi.Number 2, The claim of low angle radiation at low height is false for the quad...however quads have fat pudgy lobes that are more responsive to high angle signals than yagis.An optimal quad will probably have a tiny bit less gain than a yagi on an equal length boom but the fatter vertical response will let you work for a longer period of time than you can with a very sharp lobed yagi.This is a real advantage of the quad but it comes at the expense of mechanical complexity and relative fragility.
Yagis are better for absolute gain....but the sharp lobes can be a 2 edged sword.An antenna that responds to more angles in the vertical dimension can be a very real advantage on HF.I believe Cebic addressed this.He also addressed the fact that quads are made with wire...a poor choice for broad bandwidth.I built a gain optimized 3 element quad for 2 meters based on his modeling, and it works very well.I intend to build another out of 5/8 copper tubing based on his modeling as well.It will have a tiny, tiny bit more gain and considerably better bandwidth than my current model built out of #6 copper wire.
I like quads, and I am glad you are happy.I hope this helps you understand what you are seeing better.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by MACKAY3031 on September 12, 2009
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I forgot to mention that is is a long tradition to work new DX and generally have a nuclear signal whenever a new antenna is first tested....so congratulations on doing that with flying colors!!!
I also forgot to put my callsign in!
73 from KI4WCA and I hope to work you soon OM!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB2WIK on September 12, 2009
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>RE: My Quest for a New Antenna Reply
by W8JI on September 12, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
If you do not believe this, wax and clean your car and see how much better it feels to drive. Enjoy that good feeling because it is a real feeling, but don't consider it engineering data or science.<
::Now, wait a minute! You mean my car doesn't drive better, with more power, improved handling and better gas mileage after I wash and wax it?
Come on, of course it does.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AH6GI on September 12, 2009
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Check these quads out.
<http://foto.cqham.ru/data/500/8020110.jpg>
Amazing.
de ah6gi/4
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 12, 2009
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It seems because a few people on rare occasions make some very wild claims some people assume there is an ongoing debate about this.
That isn't true.
It has been very well established the quad has virtually none of the advantages that are repeated. The problem is we can't go back and erase misinformation once it is in print, so people dredge all the misinformation back up, repeat it even though it has long ago been sorted out, and it appears like a continuing unresolved debate.
A quad can't possibly have the two dB claimed, because maximum gain for any multiple element system always occurs when the antenna is a single element. With a single perfect element, the very maximum gain of a full wave quad element over a full size dipole is about 1 dB. That peak difference occurs in freespace.
As the element is placed over earth or some other large groundplane, that 1 dB diminishes. That very slight freespace advantage can even become negative, or a disadvantage, at some reasonable heights. Then as we add elements, that 1 dB tends to go away even more at any height. The end result is the antennas, all things equal in boom length and construction quality, are essentially equal.
The original 2dB came from a flawed study that used UHF models back when UHF equipment and techniques were not that good. That was later reported and corrected, but once the wrong numbers were distributed in print they are there forever and will keep popping back up on occasion.
The wave angle is not significantly different between a Yagi at the same height as a quad when the booms are at the same height.
The noise is only different if precipitation static (corona) is present, otherwise that is the same too.
The H-plane beamwidth of a quad is slightly wider, but not significantly so....just as the E-plane beamwidth of the Yagi is slightly wider at some heights.
This is why we find virtually no commercial quad elements in anything below upper UHF.
At upper UHF and higher, the loop does have an easier feed system. It is also easier to manufacture repeatable loops when the wavelength is very small ( a few inches or less) because the manufacturer can use disks or rings and set them on a metal boom directly without as much ill effect as a rod element.
This really is not anything that is under debate. It's just that bad science or pathological results occasionally stir the pot and the old misinformation comes back to the top.
Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2QQF on September 12, 2009
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WA1RNE asked.. "You told us about the problem with the crane and the damage to your driveway, but what was the issue with the TH6? I'd be very suspicious of the performance results, considering that the TH6 design has worked very well for many years."
I see a lot of post and boy did I stir the old pot...(hehe) I didn't mean too but was simply stating my personal experiences. Anyhow, The issue I had was the elements were off from one another. I had some elements loosen and some strong winds we had moved the elements so they were not broadside from one another. The traps were fine and I had no other issues.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by G4AON on September 12, 2009
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I think some of the "quad is better than yagi" myth may have originated back in the days when many hams used three element multi-trap antennas like the TA-33 and TH-3. Those antennas might exhibit a useful front to back ratio but perform less well in A/B tests. I had a TH3 MK3 that was hard to tell apart from a dipole at a similar height on 20m, so it was no surprise that a 2 element quad would give an S-point or so advantage over one of these. If you add the "I made it myself" factor to the quad, then you give it almost magical properties.
I use a home made 4 element quad on 6m on a 9 ft boom for portable operation and while I would love to continue the myth, in practice it doesn't perform any better than nearby stations with yagis.
73 Dave
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KC2SOU on September 13, 2009
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Frank,
I am happy that you are having good result with the new quad.
some people just can not be happy that something is working well for someone. well folks I wish I had the room to put up a full g5rv... so Frank you enjoy the new quad.
because i would be on it all day. i hope to see it one day... and the last thing is, my contact with my first
vk station. he had a quad not a yagi.
God bless ! talk to you soon 73! Ron Boucher
stir the pot! stir the pot!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 13, 2009
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Boy! OH! Boy!
"There is no way a quad at 35 feet has the same takeoff angle as a yagi twice that high. I'm not knocking quads in general, but this is an old myth that died (or should have) when modeling software became readily available."
I will vouch for your Quad myth! You sir, I can tell never done a side by side comparison and of course may not admit it, but if you had the results may change your mind a bit.
I'll take anybody up on putting a 2el. yagi at 40ft. and a 2el. Quad at 40ft. and I without a doubt will lay down a large bet that a Quad will outperform that 2el. Yagi.
N2QQF - Enjoy your Quad! You, others, and I know that 1/2 wave Yagis are designed and modeled at 1/2 wave length above ground at lowest usable frequency for best results and RF patterns. Therefore any yagi for 20 meters should be correctly installed at 72ft. minimum for best results. Reiterating! a Yagi at 35-40 feet will not perform as well than at it's proper 72ft plus height. Bottom Line!
I have had many beams over my 19 years. I have home brewed many Yagis, Quagis, Quads, Delta Loop mono band beams. I have purchased tri-band Yagis, Log Periodics, and Quads. Having a 70 ft. tower and placing my Yagi at 74ft. with a Quad at 40 ft. I can tell you that the Quad is simply amazing. I cold open and close a band every time. In all honesty there were times that with change in band propagation the yagi may at a time seemed better, but at the end of the day I heard better with the Quad. I would close and have a stronger signal to South pacific VK,ZL land at the end of that day. No doubt!
Maybe the reason why one might feel that one antenna is better than the other might be for a variety of reasons which may be true. Best way for anyone to test with out dealing with modeling software ,or he said , she said is put the equipment side by side and do an A&B comparison. If you can not do this under real conditions then take your modeling software and model all you want. Sound as smart as you want in the process and entertain yourself with it.
In the mean time we'll be opening and closing the band!
N2QQF! Really doesn't matter what anybody says. If your happy with it and the results are obvious than enjoy the ride.
73's to all!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K7DZW on September 13, 2009
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You want cheap & effective ? Loop @ 55-60' with 5 'chain link fencing laid flat on the ground underneth. I have never heard a better station than the one described.Guess who used to own it ? It's in Nevada.Easily the best ham station in North America.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N5LRZ on September 13, 2009
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All other things being equal. In a race between a three element yagi vs a 3 element quad the quad will edge out the yagi if for noting else, the quad driven on its own has a greater gain factor. The greater driver gain of the quad loop driven will add extra db to the antenna.
However this comes, as with all things, at a cost. A quad is of course a bit more complicated as it requires 4 spreades per element. And a quad you will find requires a bit more maintenance.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K6YE on September 13, 2009
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Frank,
Congrats on a very well written article. In addition, kudos to those with empirical data (both for and against).
When I first started out in the 60's, my elmer (WA6TLT, Dwayne Cooper, SK) had a 3-band 4L quad at 80 feet. Being a newbie, it was an impressive looking beast. I used it on the novice portion of 15 meters and seemed to work everything. From that point, I always wanted, but never erected, one. I also wanted his KWM-2A but never bought one.
IMHO, the best antenna is the one that works for you. I frequently talk to a group of hams who have various antennas and they all seem to work great. This includes a 3L StepIr, Zepp, Loop, Homebrew monoband yagis, Quads. It seems that each person likes their particular setup.
I always wanted to try a 5L quad but was afraid of the maintenance stories I have heard. The StepIr DB-36 looks like the cat's meow but I am equally afraid of it for the same reason. In truth, all antennas require maintenance at some time or another.
My current antenna, FORCE-12 C-4XLD, is a nice compromise "for me." It covers 40, 30, 20, 17, 15, 12 and 10 meters (edge to edge). In the garage is a KLM KT-34A that I have contemplated converting to to a M2 KT-36XA and adding a 3L 40 meter yagi above it. I had a KT-34XA in the 90's and it was a hummer. It's great to dream.
Enjoy the hobby while you are on this side of the dirt.
Semper Fi,
Tommy - K6YE
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W6OBB Antenna Farm
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by N4CQR on September 13, 2009
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I wish I had Art's antenna setup!
73 Craig
Quote: "You want cheap & effective ? Loop @ 55-60' with 5 'chain link fencing laid flat on the ground underneth. I have never heard a better station than the one described.Guess who used to own it ? It's in Nevada.Easily the best ham station in North America"
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W7TJ on September 13, 2009
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Element for Element, Quads will outperform Yagis up to 6 elements, then the Yagi takes over as adding Quad Elements reaches diminishing returns. The Quad Elements being full wave loops essentially give two inverted vee antennas stacked and in phase,eliminating alot of high angle noise, thereby giving a receive advantage. Spacing on Quad Elements is not as critical as Yagi Elements and Quads will perform very well at lower heights and shorter Boom Lengths, Yagis will not. Other Advantages:
1. No Rain/Snow Static
2. No worries with power handling
3. No Baluns Needed ( use Separage feedlines)
4. Outstanding Front to Side Ratios
5. Lighter Weight, saving on Tower/Rotor Costs
6. Lower Antenna Costs
7. Broadbanded with No Compromise Gain or FB
*These advangages are realized with the Antenna
PROPERLY TUNED with Low SWR at center of Band
Disadvantges:
1. Ugly...Many not XYL or Neighborhood Approved
2. Adverse WX Survival is a Problem..Ice/Snow/Wind
I have used and tested Quads for 40 years...these are the practical advantages and tradeoffs -
Randy W7TJ
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB5JEO on September 13, 2009
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It's futile to argue the performance virtues of two generally similar antennas. When you get into large differences, such as Yagi versus Bruce for instance, the differences and advantages in particular situations are clear, and no one expects them to be anything like the same sort of antenna.
I think that, to a large degree, it's well to remember that the first benefit of gain is at the other end of the path, and the first benefit of low noise is at your end. If a quad is a quieter antenna than another with roughly similar gain, that's a real benefit. It has the virtue of helping out the otherwise just sub-marginal ability of the distant station to deliver an adequate signal to your end. Low noise too often takes a back seat to gain. Come to think of it, it's probably cheaper, easier, and more pleasant operating to have two stations with very low noise reception than two stations powering over the noise.
Modeling is nice, but it must diverge from any specific real installation in its characterization of the local earth and local geography. Anyone's A/B comparisons need not be imaginary, just because models say it ain't so or because the comparisons went the other way at another site. What is imaginary is any claim that relatively small differences in modeled gain means anything. There are enough variations in local environments to turn any of that on its head.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AI4WC on September 13, 2009
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Hey! I have made voice contacts in 15 different countries using my 20 Meter Hamstick dipole hung onto my second floor apartment balcony using less than 100 watts most of the time! Do I claim it's the best? Of course not! It's a serious compromise, but the best I can do. Almost any antenna will perform when conditions are right. Direct comparisons are risky at best. I like to read these things and try to pick up a few "gems" of knowledge from the many viewpoints. It's sometimes hard to strain out the rancor and the B.S., but it is worth it and sometimes humorous, but we should try to be respectful. Meanwhile, my Hamsticks will have to do, but make no mistake about it - I will hang out a bunch of copper wire or aluminum tubing when I get the chance!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB4TJH on September 13, 2009
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I know what I would do in a similar situation: I would buy the biggest Mosley Pro Series antenna I could afford to put up on the new tower, then I'd get rid of the tower and beam combo I could not service easily. What you must have spent repairing the driveway from the crane damage would have probably paid for the new installation in the first place. I don't want a SteppIR because they are way too compliclated, much too expensive, and too heavy. The Mosley antennas in my experience are the best dollar value in antennas down the road, and have been for the past 40 years. You put them up right the first time, and don't ususally have to worry with them for 20 years. The Pro series is available in a three inch boom and covers 40 meters as well. I have never seen a big quad survive over 5 or 6 years; the first major wind or ice storm usually destroys them. But I have seen dozens of Mosleys survive wind, ice, hurricanes and neglect with only an infrequent coax change. That's just my observation.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 13, 2009
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N2RRA wrote: "N2QQF - Enjoy your Quad! You, others, and I know that 1/2 wave Yagis are designed and modeled at 1/2 wave length above ground at lowest usable frequency for best results and RF patterns. Therefore any yagi for 20 meters should be correctly installed at 72ft. minimum for best results."
I'd guess that N2RRA is deriving his claims regarding quads vastly outperforming yagis from the same level of technical expertise that concluded 72 feet is a half wavelength on 20m.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N3OX on September 13, 2009
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"Reiterating! a Yagi at 35-40 feet will not perform as well than at it's proper 72ft plus height. Bottom Line!
"
You can think whatever you want, and you can find whatever you find in A/B tests, but there's no reason for quads to work better lower than a yagi would. Height above earth has practically identical effect on all horizontally polarized beam antennas. I think your yagi, and N2QQF's too, both had something wrong with them or their installations.
I'm not doubting what you found, but the problem is it can't be *EXPLAINED* simply by differences between yagis and quads because they're really just the same thing. Like W8JI says, they're quite equivalent to close spaced shortened stacked yagis with an integral phasing harness, when you look at the current pattern on the quad loops. The top and bottom have high current and the sides have current nodes right in the middle, just like if you took a couple of yagis, stacked 'em 1/4 wave above each other, and folded the tips down till they touched.
A/B testing is one step of the rational comparison between antennas. An important prior step, though, is predicting the specifics of the difference and then understanding what happened if that prediction failed as part of your post-game analysis of your tests.
So far, to the best of my testing ability, the patterns of HF and VHF yagis and Moxons I have built conform rather well to the model predictions. I don't build quads but the same will happen there. It's all the same.
Furthermore, the model (and prior basic analytical theory regarding ground reflections) predicts how the pattern will change with height, and until you drop 'em so low that the elements are closer to the ground than they are to the other elements, the pattern doesn't seem to change much. We can insist on someone confirming this experimentally but if the measurement is done in a careful and controlled manner, it's going to match the model.
There are a lot of people in the ham ranks who think of antenna modeling as just a toy that won't really tell you about the real world. If you think that is a fundamental problem, you're missing a big opportunity to fine tune your antenna in an evening to an extent that would take you weeks of measurement and tweaking. This is why the professionals use models, and why I rather like them. I like experimenting too, and I like measuring patterns and figuring out how they're the same and different so I can make my modeling better. But the models can work if you don't leave major things out of them.
That's important. You *DO* have to be careful to not leave important considerations out of the model. You need a balun and feedline in your model for a lot of antennas. If you've got a multi-band dipole on the tower too, you need it in the model.
And there are some things that you're never going to be able to put in there, like the wiring in your house and the exact effect of nearby trees, but those things will invariable affect yagis and quads in a very similar way because there is NO fundamental difference between those two antenna types. There is NO way that environmental things you leave out of the model will cause a quad to open and close the band where a yagi with the same gain at that sweet elevation angle won't. There is NO way that the environmental things you leave out of the model will give 3 S-units difference between two antennas have the same modelled gain. If you do leave out the "broken-ness" of a broken trap yagi, well... you haven't even come close to modeling that antenna. You got traps full of wet bug guts? Not the same antenna as in the model, is it? But you CAN check your assumptions... you can throw 700 ohm or 1k parallel resistors across the model traps in a couple minutes and see how that changes the gain and F/B...
I don't expect active DXers who really love their quads to go figure out why their other antennas sucked so hard by comparison. But that's the real issue here: not that quads were great but that you guys must have had some messed up yagis or installations, that either never really worked or decayed over time.
Or maybe your assumptions about which antenna you needed were incorrect. The time when lower antennas beat higher antennas is when your higher antenna puts a null on the optimum takeoff angle for a certain path.
But it's not because quads work low and yagis only work at some really high design height. The effect of the earth is very simple for horizontal antennas and pretty much does the same thing to all of them until you get to the point where the elements are approaching the same distance from earth as they are from their nearest neighbors. Then you start to get some real problems, for obvious reasons.
73
Dan
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W9OY on September 13, 2009
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actually according to the story HJCB ran 10KW
73 W9OY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W9OY on September 13, 2009
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http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/2002-11/msg00393.html
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N6AJR on September 13, 2009
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Quads do a yeomans job in most installs BUT I still prefer the steppir. I have had quite a few antennas up and I prefer the steppir for one main reason. it is always resonant. Quads ar only "good" on 1 specific frequency and all others are a compromise.
This week I may be using SSB on a cqww contest and need tod operate say from 14.150 to 14.350 mhz, the syteppir is tuned to resonance on thow bands, next week it may be an ARRL CW contest and now the antenna is tuned for 14.000 to 14. 150 mhz, and againg is in resonance.
I even used it this week for the VHF contest on 6 meters.
it isalways "right on" frequency no matter where I choose to operate from 50.000 mhz to 14.350, and any where in between. I use hi power so I need the antenna to be right on.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W3LK on September 13, 2009
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<< actually according to the story HJCB ran 10KW >>
Initially, yes, but increased it considerably later on. This is when they started running into the corona problems.
The two founders were originally ministers in my church's denomination, but the leaders at the time didn't see the "need" for religious radio and so they resigned, and the rest is history.
I have met some of the folks from HCJB and they are a great bunch.
73,
Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 13, 2009
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* "AB7E - 'd guess that N2RRA is deriving his claims regarding quads vastly outperforming yagis from the same level of technical expertise that concluded 72 feet is a half wavelength on 20m."
We'll if I must be critical on my statement (always proof read) and guess I should around here I'll explain.
Where as a 20 meter yagi should be placed at between 50-60 feet in free space not many have this luxury at this height of free space. It is suggested you go higher placing it at approximately 70ft. Why? Better chance at clearing anything around it from tuning and resonance adjustment issue's. It all comes down to ground conductivity as well! Every location will not exhibit the same ground conductive and when installing that yagi everything around it affects it's radiation pattern there fore it would be best to get it at a height of 70ft. Manufacturers like to design yagis at this height for that reason. At 70 ft. you should be clear of any effects due to "ground" or "end effect" properties which may occur.
I think with quads these conditions might be a little more forgiving in the same situation. At least I've seen anyway when tuning a Quad versus a Yagi.
So I'll go one step further! Take a Yagi and Quad placing them at 30ft. and then tell me what you find. Anyone for the challenge? In the real world that is!
* "W8JI - A quad element electrically is two stacked 1/2 size end-loaded dipoles, spaced 1/4 apart. The stacking gain of a single FULL SIZE dipole at 1/4 wave"
INCORRECT! Each Quad element loop are quarter wave length each side ( Full Wave Overall ). The boom spacing can be 1/4 - 1/2 wave length spacing.
Look! I think the man had a valid point and for anyone to knock his experience to claims that you don't like because you may not like Quads it has been suggested for many decades that a Quad seems to have advantages over yagi. You'll read it in a ARRL Hand Books and many other publications besides Cebiks. Although I respect and honor that man his words should never be written in stone despite the mathematical genius he might have been.
I believe in the real world and all though these calculations put us in the ball park with some precision they can all change with the enviorment in which we are installing these systems. Therefore you must compare in the real world and side by side. N2QQF obviously did with having them both approximately same height and A/B switch them.
How do you know your claims on blaming old traps are to blame for his findings?
He suffered no critical mass destruction due to SWR issues caused by arching in the traps that he may have failed to mention. Did not seem to have an issue with impedance matching. In fact yagi seemed to work quite well apparently. Maybe these questions could have been asked before making such claims.
Hey! this is what we're here for is to give our opinions, but before doing so keep it on a inquisitive and helpful level. Not a favoritism level! Keep it scientific as well because it keeps it fun.
73's!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by HR2510 on September 13, 2009
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I regularly make 1000 miles plus contacts with my 5 watt QRP rig on 40 meters. I use a "Co-Tanga" homebrew antenna mounted to a .025 wavelength 2x4 with two 8 penny nails for directors. I'm working on a 160 meter version but I have to wait until the dry cleaners are finished to get more antenna material.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 13, 2009
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* N6AJR - Quads ar only "good" on 1 specific frequency and all others are a compromise."
That is not true!
Each driven loop in a Quad can be independently driven giving it mono band performance on all bands. It also will be quite broad banded this way. There is also installing one feed line to a switch box that will give the same effect.
When this happens! Watch out!
73's!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K9FON on September 13, 2009
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A quad is a great antenna but here were I live we have a nasty little thing called Winter. Lots of ice, wind, and snow to destroy a nice quad in one season. So thats why i stick with a yagi.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by LU2DFM on September 13, 2009
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There are two antennas, a yagi and a quad.
There is (theoretical and empirical) scientific evidence indicating that *at the very least* the quad has no real performance advantages over the yagi.
You observed that the quad actually outperforms the yagi.
From that observation, you derived that the scientific evidence mentioned above is wrong, and the quad is better than the yagi.
Disregarding common sense, which indicates that may be the yagi is not working well, you instead decided to write this article.
That's scientific method.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 13, 2009
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LU2DFM,
Nothing scientific about your comments! Nothing contributed to back your statement! Just a bunch of Jibberassh!
Thanks for your contribution!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by NB3O on September 13, 2009
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Some anecdotal observations from Winchester, VA:
1. I had an A-3 tribander at the top of a 60 foot tower that had an insect-infested trap...I found it during a contest when running a full gallon CW (the PVC end caps caught fire).
2. Replaced the A-3 with a Force12 C-3, which appears to have better F/B. I can only assume the C-3 is less of a compromise on each of the bands. No place for the bugs to hide either.
3. Decided to side-mount a TH7 midway at 70 feet on a separate Rohn 65G tower (26 inches per side). The VSWR on 15 meters rose above 3:1, but the other bands appeared OK, except for poor F/B ratio.
4. Replaced the TH7 with a home-brew 2-element triband quad (separate feedlines). I was able to fine-tune the F/B on each reflector using a short stub of ladder line and clip leads. Much better than the TH7, until a quarter inch of ice and strong winds.
5. Purchased a book and modeling software for structural design. Now waiting for the middle of winter to apply this knowledge in the field...
It's only a hobby.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 13, 2009
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W8JI was of course correct in his description of what a quad actually is, but since his explanation didn't breach N2RRA's utter lack of comprehension, let me have a try at it.
Take two identical 3 element yagis and stack them with a separation of 1/4 wavelength. Feed both in phase with equal power. Optimally spaced stacked yagis are capable of approximately three db of gain over a single yagi, but with such close spacing the additional gain is marginal ... probably one db but not much more than that. If you can't accept that, you're unreachable and you might as well stop reading this bit right now.
Now then, bend the outer 1/8 wavelength of each element in the upper antenna straight down. You are left with 1/4 wavelength sections in the middle that are horizontal (the "half-size" elements referred to by W8JI) with the 1/8 wavelength sections hanging down from their tips. The phasing of the currents along the elements is such that the fields from the dangling vertical segments cancel ... there is essentially no vertically polarized radiation, at least in the forward direction. That means that the dangling vertical sections act much like "end-loading" for the 1/4 wave horizontal sections ... just like W8JI said.
Now do the same thing to the lower antenna, except point the end sections up toward the tips of the upper antenna. Now you have two shortened end-loaded yagis stacked 1/4 wavelength apart, except that the one db of stacking gain we started with has dropped a bit due to the shorter elements.
Finally, connect the tips of the upper elements to the corresponding tips of the lower elements and presto, we have a quad ... except that we don't need to feed it in two places since the tips transfer the power from one driven element to the other. All currents still have the same phasing that we started with, there is still field cancellation from the vertical wires, the horizontal sections are still only 1/4 wavelength long, and the "stacking" distance is still only a 1/4 wavelength. Just like W8JI said. We're simply calling it a "quad" now instead of "a couple of poorly spaced crippled yagis".
So how does this process we just followed endow such magical properties on a quad? Where does the 2 to 3 S-units of advantage for a quad come from? Where does the immunity from ground detuning come from? Where does the lower takeoff angle come from? The answer, of course, is that they don't exist. The two situations are essentially similar. I can think of a couple of potential pluses for a quad, but none of them have anything to do with better performance versus a yagi.
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2QQF on September 14, 2009
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AB7E WROTE....I'd guess that N2RRA is deriving his claims regarding quads vastly outperforming yagis from the same level of technical expertise that concluded 72 feet is a half wavelength on 20m.
I was wondering where this came from and I reread my story and realized the typo sorry I do realize 72 feet is not a half wave length. I probably was comparing in my head 1/2 and full wave lengths and made this comparison and the typo managed to slip pass me.
Anyhow, this story is only a reflection of my experience and not meant to be a lab environment type test. I did not have any near field test instruments etc... I just did some basic A/B testing. The fact that my TH6 is older surly plays a part as well as a multitude of issues but I am am quite happy with the performance of my Quad.
I will not go into the above grammatical errors as he (AB7E) tries to get a dig on me for my error. I will say he is perceptive though! since he is the only one that actually noticed the error of the half wave length remark. I will say for as many responses this article has had and the very few that noticed that means we may have a bigger debate than quads and yagi's.
Thanks for reading the article. Criticism is always accepted as long as it is constructive.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W1XZ on September 14, 2009
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>>I made the contacts and decided to A/B them with the beam. Guess what, I could not hear them at all? I check to see if everything was ok and it was but I just was not hearing them. How could this be? I cant even hear them but why? Well I did some on air testing and A/B comparisons with a few stations and I constantly received reports of 2-3 S units better and sometimes more. Now, the antennas were at the same height and the beam has been working great but how could I not hear the stations that I am now hearing on the other antenna.<<
Run the antennas through computer programs all day long and argue about quads vs beams until you are blue in the face, but those who have been saying something is wrong are correct. There is a problem there somewhere. If you made contacts with stations on the quad that you can't even hear on the beam do some investigating.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 14, 2009
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AB7E,
I'm not going to amuse your observations, but direct your comments of 2 dbd gain, or 2 s-units of advantage to the person who gave that claim. I sure didn't! Although I do have a comment pertaining to it a little further down.
Next! I think you should write a book on your comprehension on how a Quad works and debunk these myths. That's so I and others could get this myth out from our heads that I and others have read from A.R.R.L Hand Books and other publications.
I will quote from an A.R.R.L Hand Book of a loop for one particular band.
* "A resonant square loop has just 1.1db gain over a dipole."
Antennas 22.45 2008 Edition
* "A rectangular loop provides 2.1 db gain over a dipole at low radiation angles when mounted well above the ground."
Antennas 22.45 A.R.R.L Hand Book
The reason why I gave these examples was to show what a loop in a Quad position per band can show gain over a dipole. These gains were given over a dipole or inverted Vee configurations.
-------------------------------------------------------
Now I will quote another man that knows his stuff.
ON4UN!
Now he doesn't want to get into the debate about the myths but his comments were....
* "For a given height above ground, the quad does not produce a markedly lower radiation angle than the yagi."
Hmmm! "For a given height above ground" Is that open to possibilities? I know for a fact that height above ground for any antenna more so a yagi or Quad this is important. Next!
* "There is a very slight difference in favor of the Quad, as there is some squeezing of the vertical plane due to the effect of the stacked two horizontal elements that make a horizontal polarized cubical quad."
"For a given boom length, a Quad will produce lightly more gain that a yagi. This is logical since the aperture (capture area) is larger."
Quads versus Yagis - 13-2 (Low Band Dxing)
Now the rule is simple! Larger capture area means more gain and directivity. Can you comprehend that?
My experience with yagis and quads are like few others. Some have been able to put up one or the other and in some cases both. Some experiment weather home brew or purchase an antenna. I home brew a lot!
In this experience I observed differences before reading ON4UN's book and with not as many A.R.R.L editions as I have acquired over the years. I always felts and compared differences that helped me make my decisions and despite the construction durability of a Quad no one is disputing that fact, but there are ways to improve the structural design of them if you apply yourself to it.
I know of such people with 4 el. Quads that have owned them for up to 40 years. Yes! may have had to rebuild them at a time, but not as often as one thinks. One way around from doing this was to lower the tower too 30ft. This helps!
K4BEE - Had his 2el. Quad with bottom element just 2ft. off the ground from Georgia and would work him every day with 599 with just a 100 watts. Not really much evidence but true. Steppir's are great but you have motors and anything with more mechanics involved over time will break. It's not a matter how, but when!
I know a lot of steppir owners to know this to be true. Not taking anything away from the Steppir but just a fact.
Trapped yagis will also eventually see deterioration. Traps get filled with rust, spiders and all kinds of insects. You can maintain them by opening them up on some cleaning and lightly greasing them.
So! know that I have explained my part and exhausted myself with substantial evidence I'll let you get back to work. In the mean time when you right that book and your documented results let me know. I'd like to buy it!
73's!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 14, 2009
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Forgot to mention that my findings in many publications will mention that a Quad will have better lower angle characteristics, but I'm not going to to quote the long list of books. As far as what I've seen this can go either way in some cases. There were a lot of times the quad seemed to do better at lower heights based on 2 elements on both antennas. When went from a 2el to 3 and 4 on a yagi this all changed. Could also be totally based on ground reflections.
I will say this!
If you do more building, or purchasing (which ever you prefer)testing may put all this speculation and assumptions to rest. Most are giving comments based on non experience ,or just jumping on the band wagon. Which is no surprise I guess!
Experiment, Experiment, Experiment and doesn't have to with tri-bands. Start with a single element loop and dipole. Then work your way to 2el., then 3el. and so on. Same heights then different heights and then give each time under various conditions.
Try a rectangular loop over a quad and dipole. With all fairness come back and write a giant article with pictures and documentation that will convince us all.
73's!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WA3SKN on September 14, 2009
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Glad you are enjoying the antenna!
There are SO many myths and un-truths about quads vs beams... you could write several books. I will not bother to quote them here.
I am just glad to hear it is working for you after all that expense... keep using it!
73s.
-Mike.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 14, 2009
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N2RAA,
You can dig through Amateur publications and find hundreds of incorrect statements, because our books are largely put together by hobbyists. They also have very limited peer review, most often having none at all.
There also is a communications problem at times. Especially when using terms like dB gain. Gain over what?
You said:
"I will quote from an A.R.R.L Hand Book of a loop for one particular band.
* "A resonant square loop has just 1.1db gain over a dipole." Antennas 22.45 2008 Edition
Then you said:
"*"A rectangular loop provides 2.1 db gain over a dipole at low radiation angles when mounted well above the ground." Antennas 22.45 A.R.R.L Hand Book"
You can see right there the ARRL Handbooks are confused. One is quoting the measured and proven gain (that I mentioned earlier several times) of about 1 dB over a dipole under freespace conditions.
The original data on a quad presented around 1950 was based on a flawed measurements by J. Kmosko, W2NLY and H. Johnson. They had feedpoint errors on a 440 MHz reference dipole element feed they made, and that is where the "2 dB gain" of a quad actually came from. Since this was amateur radio and not commercial, it was several years before anyone double checked that number and found it wrong.
Once a number is out there in print, it takes on a life. This is why we see it "pop up" once in a while. It is a simple error because we can't go back to 1950 and remove all the papers that have the wrong numbers.
The maximum gain of a square quad element over a dipole is around 1 dB, and that is for freespace. Put it over earth and that gain is less, ranging from a slight negative gain to perhaps 1/2 dB or so. Add a second element and the change is less. Add a third element and the change is even less.
This is because a quad electrically is really just two half-width Yagi antennas, end loaded, that are stacked 1/4 wave apart. It isn't magical. It doesn't filter noise, it doesn't change the height requirements one bit. It is a bit better for precipitation static (corona) because it does not have extended points out into open air, but that is really the sole advantage and it is only meaningful under certain weather conditions.
The quad is kept alive by a very small but vocal almost religious cult following or love affair. Like belief in a certain God, or the love of something we hold dear, it doesn't matter what the true facts are.
73 Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 14, 2009
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Tom,
Where are you getting your facts?
You keep quoting a book that was from the 1950's other than your own comments. Give us more than that! So far more than one present day book publication using present day antenna software is debunking what you are saying. It is also common knowledge to what these highly respected books in the field are presenting. Your saying that A.R.R.L and ON4UN who are highly respected are wrong and yet have nothing to show for it other than your own opinion over and over again. In fact it's not just ON4UN's expertise, but the expertise of the many Hams that are addicts to low band DXing that have helped him with his Books. This is the same for A.R.R.L experts.
Sure! there's room for speculation because in science there's always a debate, but! the fact remains that too many have suggested, and believe thenm to be true about the Quad. That's why it has lived up to its reputation for so long or this would have been resolved 60 years ago.
Oh well! Your actually sounding now more like the cult anti Quad believer. Help us out here! Till then this is just ridiculous!
Frank, enjoy your Quad and all that matters is if your making more contacts than the yagi and enjoying it good for you. I thank you for sharing your opinion and experience. Don't like trap yagis anyway!
73's!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 14, 2009
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OH! by the way to answer your question referencing db gain.
Why don't you call and ask A.R.R.L or ON4UN. I quoted and stated to accuracy their findings. Weather it was dbi or dbd gain it is still more gain over a dipole.
More aperture means more gain and directivity!
Another example! An extended dipole will have more gain than a regular standard dipole. More wire means more gain! Research extended dipoles for an example!
73's!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB5JEO on September 14, 2009
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A lot of this foolishness grows out of partial knowledge and a natural desire, when one has put one's eggs in a single basket, to imagine it to be the best of all possible baskets within the budget and local conditions. Of course, all knowledge is partial, but there are scattered amongst even just the amateur literature, some real gems.
So many people are in the position of trying to or having to pick one antenna, and that just makes their heads hurt after a while. Knowledge of just how things work force you to face up to the realities of trade-offs and what any given antenna in a given environment will tend to do well, giving the seeker after optimization a starting place. That business of imagining there is an all-around best height for a Yagi or quad is an example. In a particular location, knowledge gives you an idea what might be best for a particular job, but it takes a lot of trying to meet a particular goal. Those who have the time, money, and energy to make that effort become realistic about just how limited is any single antenna's ability to shine at meeting one goal. And it's a LOT of work, but some of those efforts have produced some of the best articles in terms of dragging all the theory and modeling back to Earth and extending the knowledge of how many variable go into performance.
NO antenna has any fixed particular gain that can be determined with any accuracy in actual communication with a distant station. No operator, certainly no HF operator, can ever claim a gain figure in a given vector or legitimately talk about it as if gain were the only thing that mattered. You can be proud of your tower and antenna and happy that it allows you to do things, especially that it allows you to do well the things you want most to do. But that's all you really can say about it. You can tell another guy he's full of it if he claims the general statement that quads of n elements have two or three dB gain over a Yagi of m elements. But you're shoveling just as much manure if you tell him he's mistaken that in the vectors over which he observed performance one particular installed quad just can't have that gain over a particular installed Yagi on the same site without something being wrong with the Yagi.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 14, 2009
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N2QQF,
Your reference to a half wavelength on 20m being 72 feet may have been a typo, but that certainly wasn't the case with N2RRA. My comment on that was directed to him, not you ... I referenced his callsign, not yours.
73,
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W9OY on September 14, 2009
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N2RRA
W8JI wrote some of the chapters in ON4UN's book
73 W9OY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 14, 2009
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I tried.
Some people won't or can't enter into a logical discussion about how things work. Instead they quote amateur books that quote and repeat amateur mistakes or myths.
The logic is if something is in a book, it has to correct. This is true even if the same book calls itself a liar by giving conflicting information. :-)
This is a great example of the problems we have correcting things when something wrong appears in print.
For example, someone quotes ON4UN's book as saying a quad has 2 dB extra gain, but here is what the Fourth Edition says:
"I can think of a few disadvantages of QUAD antennas as compared to YAGI antennas:
Much better F/B can be obtained with Yagis
Quads are three dimensional; you can't easily pick them up unless you have a crane
Wires break
It is non-efficient material user
So far as electrical performance is concerned, a well-tuned quad antenna should MARGINALLY outperform a Yagi with the same boom length, at least so far as gain is concerned. The difference being in the order of a fraction of a dB to a maximum of ONE DB, is more of an academic than of a practical nature"
Where is the 2 dB?? It is BS. As I have said all along for all practical purposes they are equal. Under the very best conditions there is one dB, and that is with a single element at optimum heights. There are heights where the quad has a slight negative gain.
Why do the books call themselves liars? Because they often make the mistake of quoting the flawed data that came from the 1950's, when flawed measurements were made. THAT is where the 2 dB came from.
Once something wrong is in print, we can't get over it. Not even 50 years later.
Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W5WSS on September 14, 2009
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Yeah, Mr Moore at HJCB designed the quad to releive a corona problem existing on the element ends of his yagi at +10 kw. His design worked to solve the problem...No chenges of signal strength were noted otherwise. A two element horizontal polarised quad vs a two element horizontal yagi demonstrate virtually undectable differences when compared at equal heights period! There are slightly different areas that which either antenna will exhibit pattern variations that mostly are attributable to other sources such as mutual coupling to nearby conductors and or the ground being the same for either(almost) anyway but they are not noticed beyond the modeling phase because these differences are too small to be a detectable power increase far below 0.001 db a futile argument as far as signal strength is concerned. The viable alternative to a yagi is a log yagi Mr Cebik exhausted his anlysis of optimised Log-yagi designs too and found that there exists a niche' for them on upper hf where they offer excellent performance and there exists a design that presents a true low loss 52 ohm impeadence. The 4 element Log cell when designed properly will couple to horizontal elements equally well as a convential yagi driven element will.It consists of a 4-element log cell with one reflector and one director admottedly The Log yagi is more complicated but bodes well...mine would perform equally to a five element wide spaced optimised yagi anywhere in the yagi's pass band when pressed beyond the yagi passband the LOG yagi would hold superior gain front to back etc 500 khz either side beyond where the yagi became poor.... advantage Log-yagi on the ten meter band for example. these are findings that are consistent with MR Cebiks analysis.I find then that the yagi is best due to simplicity of construction etc then the Log-yagi then quad sorry quad enthusuasists! well there it is there really is no debate and has not been for a very long time 73 Ps the LOG-Yagi is Not a log periodic but does however use a log cell as the set of driven elements.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 14, 2009
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N2RAA,
I suggest you learn what different terms actually mean before you use the words.
You attempted to use the word "aperture". The effective aperture of an antenna has NOTHING to do with physical bulk or physical size. Aperture, or more correctly effective aperture, is a function of gain and wavelength. Nothing else.
If I had an antenna occupying 10,000 cubic feet of spatial area and another occupying just one cubic foot, the one cubic foot antenna could have a larger electrical aperture or effective aperture.
A very large Rhombic for example typically has about the same effective aperture as a four or five element Yagi.
I have Beverage antennas here that are several hundred feet long that have an effective aperture or capture area equivalent to about 15 feet.
You are confusing physical size with electrical characteristics.
Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N3OX on September 14, 2009
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"A lot of this foolishness grows out of partial knowledge and a natural desire, when one has put one's eggs in a single basket, to imagine it to be the best of all possible baskets within the budget and local conditions."
That's a pretty great observation, Gerald.
"But you're shoveling just as much manure if you tell him he's mistaken that in the vectors over which he observed performance one particular installed quad just can't have that gain over a particular installed Yagi on the same site without something being wrong with the Yagi."
That I don't agree with. The problem is that we're NOT actually talking about a particular observed behavior quad vs. yagi here, even if it seems we are.
What we're talking about is a *recommendation* based on generalizing such an observation. And if there's some other unknown property that didn't get factored in that made this *special case* quad actually perform, what, at least 6-7dB better than a higher yagi, how is ANYONE going to replicate it?
We know it's not because the quad is a quad and the yagi is a yagi. And at least I admitted in my prior post that I don't disbelieve the A/B result. What we haven't done is come anywhere close to explaining the result.
A 74 foot high yagi is not like a ground mounted vertical next to the steel tool shed. It's got very little around it to mess things up, and can probably easily see the horizon way off in the distance in most people's location, maybe aside from a tree here or there.
What random installation variable for that antenna would routinely make a free and clear quad beam 6 or maybe even 10dB better into a given elevation and azimuth (probably at low elevation) than a free and clear yagi up higher with the same nominal gain? We should keep in mind that both of these antennas are awfully in the clear of surrounding obstacles and plenty high above ground to have essentially no induction field interaction with the earth.
"Broken yagi" or "bad installation" are some of them. "Path takeoff angle in an elevation null" is another one, but for band opening and closing, at least for long haul DX, I would expect the lowest angles to be the best.
One that might really make a difference is living next to a ridge. If your antenna can't see over the ridge down to 0 degrees elevation, then the low angle radiation will be based on diffraction, and then it's probably better to aim your main lobe at the ridge edge instead of down into the side of the mountain.
Variables like resonant guy wires could do funny things. Bad balun on the yagi?
N2RRA offers that yagis need to be installed at their design height, and I strongly disagree based on both models and experience. The experience mostly coming in the form of validating models with measurements, not so much with changing beam heights. Does anyone else have some support for that very strong statement, which is being offered as the main argument ?
It doesn't make any sense at all to me, since the credible resources I have seen point to the idea that height above ground has a very predictable effect on elevation pattern largely independent of the type of horizontal antenna, and relative low angle gain between similar antennas and a rather weak effect on azimuthal directivity. So far, I've never heard anyone else contradict this in theory, modeling, or measurement. N2RRA, I'd appreciate actual info on your sources Re: quads being less susceptible to earth effects. There's one very simple way in which they're somewhat less, and that's that the minimum boom height is 1/8th wave above ground where for a yagi it's zero ;-)
And nope, I can't go try anything right now and measure the directivity and gain of my 20m yagi at 74 feet and lower heights. But I can tell you that models work well so far for predicting the gain between a couple of different antennas I have at different heights on 6m, and another pair on 432MHz, and for predicting patterns and impedances of antennas I have no comparison for. And using the same model on a 20m 5 element yagi (which should be sensitive to the earth too) shows little **pattern shape** change of note until you get down to 20 feet, and even there it's got pretty good directivity. The only thing that changes is, predictably, the gain at At 5 feet from the ground, the pattern suffers a great deal, but this is an antenna with a 55 foot boom and closest spacing is the first director to driver of 10 feet. So the driver and first director are half the distance from the earth than they are from each other.
That's what it takes to totally ruin the directivity in a model. It's degraded at low heights like 20 feet but not horribly, and the pattern is just uniformly weaker at a given elevation as you go down.
And testing the 20m yagi and a 20m quad shows that about the same thing happens for both. 74 feet down to 40, maybe 5dB to 6dB lost gain at 5 degrees elevation.
What about the "real world" is going to change that result? That's what I'd like to know.... and the question we must answer. I think the answer is "nothing" and haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise yet.
73
Dan
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KB1NXE on September 14, 2009
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I read most of this as I am doing a similar internal debate (my head). I've come to the following conclusion:
No different from Ford versus Chevy, BMW versus Audi, Toyota versus Honda arguments. They all work the same and it comes down to personal preference.
Well, back to the voices in my head....
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K0EX on September 14, 2009
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congratulations, Frank, on your new antenna! i have a 2L Cubex 3-band quad and i really like the way it performs.
i'm sorry to see that your comments, intending i'm sure, to simply share your antenna-comparison experience to others, resulted in a verbal bar-room brawl. apparently you didn't caveat your caveats with enough caveats to have covered all possible caveats that should have been stated... and i now caveat my own opinion with the well-worn caveat "your mileage may vary".
your observations will be valuable to some fellow HAMs, as you intended. they will appreciate the information when they attempt to make a similar antenna-related decision.
in the meanwhile, your decision is working for YOU, regardless of anyone else's beliefs, mathetical evidence, experiences, or what ever... so go add to your DXCC totals with your new investment!
see you in the pile-ups...
-Mark K0EX
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 14, 2009
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N2RRA: "I know for a fact that height above ground for any antenna more so a yagi or Quad this is important."
It's a bit difficult to tell what you meant to say here since your sentence structure is off kilter, but if you meant to say that height above ground is important for both a quad and a yagi, that is correct. It just isn't any more important for one versus the other.
AB7E original comment: "There is no way a quad at 35 feet has the same takeoff angle as a yagi twice that high. I'm not knocking quads in general, but this is an old myth that died (or should have) when modeling software became readily available. "
N2RRA direct response, quoting my comment in the process: "Boy! OH! Boy! I will vouch for your Quad myth! You sir, I can tell never done a side by side comparison and of course may not admit it, but if you had the results may change your mind a bit. I'll take anybody up on putting a 2el. yagi at 40ft. and a 2el. Quad at 40ft. and I without a doubt will lay down a large bet that a Quad will outperform that 2el. Yagi."
N2RRA: "Having a 70 ft. tower and placing my Yagi at 74ft. with a Quad at 40 ft. I can tell you that the Quad is simply amazing. I cold open and close a band every time. In all honesty there were times that with change in band propagation the yagi may at a time seemed better, but at the end of the day I heard better with the Quad. I would close and have a stronger signal to South pacific VK,ZL land at the end of that day. No doubt! "
N2RRA: "Now the rule is simple! Larger capture area means more gain and directivity. Can you comprehend that? "
What I can comprehend (and you apparently don't) is that capture area isn't a function of the physical size of the antenna ... it's a mathematical construct that actually relates to the gain of the antenna. You don't get higher gain simply by making a physically larger antenna ... you get a greater theoretical capture area by making a higher gain antenna.
Besides, even if there were a 1 db gain advantage for a quad, that difference isn't going to open or close the band for you relative to a yagi, and it isn't going to make a quad perform better at lower height relative to a yagi.
Except for the issue of mechanical complexity, nobody here (myself included) has tried to "bash" a quad as an antenna. What I and others have tried to bash is the unfounded perception that a quad with the same number of elements and at the same height as a yagi is going to perform noticeably better.
I wouldn't keep pressing this point if it weren't for the fact that I truly believe that perpetuating ill-founded conjecture and bad science is detrimental to our hobby. Ham radio is supposed to be a means to learn a bit of technology and have fun with it, and willingly ignoring the science behind it seems to me to be a bad foundation. I've made as many bad conclusions and believed in as many scientific myths as most, but I truly value being informed of my errors and appreciate whatever additional insight those more knowledgeable are willing to pass on to me. There are some truly competent people here in this forum (I don't mean myself) who have tried to do the same with you and you just keep blowing them off with error-filled references that don't even support your case. At this point I couldn't care less what you believe, but I certainly hope that others will be more scientifically objective.
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 14, 2009
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All well said by all!
I for one was not blowing other people off. I was merely stating my experience with a few antennas based on over the years reading and putting what I read into construction. Based on home brewing and comparing I have experienced variables in testing between different antennas which is much more than some just reading about and making statements.
The real problem here like most articles is instead of taking the editor and helping disect the problem with each enquesition to bring his claims to light comments were vague and snotty.
My comprehension and terminology of quad and yagis stems from what I have read over time and if it were to change year down the road in the following edition I would not know unless I read it. Till then the same error in books that support myths after 60 years throws this amatuer radio operator to the lions.
Wonder how you know which books are gospel. Instead of sounding like the grand wizard of science I'd like to read "N2RRA, the book that has the right answers is....such and such". So far I have nothing from any of you where to find this antenna bible.
Being that so many books are flawed why don't we just throw up any antenna and say a hale Mary. ARRL is wrong, ON4UN is wrong then my money has been wasted to an extent. Give us anything or something else other than your own opinion.
Like I have said before! I like to compare antennas in the real world. It is the true way you can be sure of your findings by comparing them. If there is a noticable difference you will see it. That is the only true way one can tell which antenna will be more effective than the last. It has worked for me countless times and I know many others.
73's!
Sent To You by Iphone!
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KE4NU on September 14, 2009
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The debate will go on forever of quad vs yagi...I've built and used both and they both work good. But, when I lived in Alabama I built a triband 2 element quad and worked on it and tweaked it to perfection for nearly a year. I finally got it put to 80 ft in October, used it a few days and it was great. I came down with bronchitis and wasn't able to talk for a couple of weeks and during that time a freak ice storm came and broke it to pieces. That was the last hf quad I'll own...73, Alan
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 14, 2009
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N2RRA: "Wonder how you know which books are gospel. Instead of sounding like the grand wizard of science I'd like to read "N2RRA, the book that has the right answers is....such and such". So far I have nothing from any of you where to find this antenna bible."
OK ... how about this?
"N2RRA, the book that has the right answers is "HF TRIBANDER PERFORMANCE - TEST METHODS & RESULTS - 2nd Edition" by K7LXC and N0AX."
Does that work for you? Here's an extensive review and endorsement of it by W4RNL:
http://www.antennex.com/shack/Mar03/sntest.html
By the way, if you would have heeded the second comment in this message thread (written by someone named "ZENKI"), you'd have had your answer long ago. I quote from his posting:
"I would suggest you buy a copy of HF tribander Performance by N0AX and K7LXC. They have measured a quad antennas gain and compared it to several good tribanders which beat the pants off a quad. Wayne N6NB did similar tests and published his results in Ham Radio magazine. The average quad could not beat a simple TH2 tribander yagi"
At least as relevant have been the scientifically-based comments here from N3OX and W8JI that you have chosen to simply ignore. You're pretty gullible if you think anything written in a book is necessarily any more valid than something written elsewhere.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W4VR on September 14, 2009
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Quad beams were very popular many years ago. But, many hams found out that if you live in an area where you get occasional ice storms they fall apart pretty quickly. The aluminum yagis are also prone to falling apart under heavy ice but not as bad as a wire quad. There was a study done some years ago and published in QST comparing a 2 element quad to a 3 element aluminum yagi...the results were in favor of the quad.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WMCO on September 14, 2009
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It is interesting to see how maby ""experts"" are comming out of the woodwork with all they're experiance..that in the end is not really worth the nicle they spend on they're ""expert"" websites.
Yeah I just love hams that equate a 50 penny license with expert knowlege.
If you like the way the antenna performes for you..great go for it and don't try to justify the unjustifyable....you will never amount to anything in they're overblown ego eyes. Just use your antenna and enjoy and tell those experts to stick they're head up to where the brown sun shines forever.
John
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AC5E on September 14, 2009
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Good choice of tower - I have been quite happy with mine since 1989, and three hurricanes.
I am an "old tech" with the proper equipment and know how to check antennas. And I have an Extra class YF who does not mind telling me what the meter reads "down range." Or talking to me as I log field strength readings.
I have had both quads and Yagi's and even log periodics up and on my "two mile antenna range" there is very little difference between a TH-6 and a hand tuned quad. I somewhat prefer the quad for turning radius reasons - but ordinarily there is no great difference.
Quads are cheap, easy to home brew, and will do a decent job built according to plan. If you want to play with R/DE spacing and loop sizes you can make one work extraordinarily well. And that's all very well. Especially if a hundred bucks and a roll of electric fence wire is what you have.
But quads are also mechanical nightmares, large enough to park a couple of box cars inside the 20 Meter loops. They catch a lot of wind, and unless you are building the spreaders of heavy and expensive fiberglass, they are delicate. If access is ever going to be a problem, go with the Yagi.
Pete Allen AC5E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 14, 2009
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W4VR: "There was a study done some years ago and published in QST comparing a 2 element quad to a 3 element aluminum yagi...the results were in favor of the quad."
I don't remember reading that. Could you please let us know which issue that was?
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 14, 2009
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To WMCO,
What does "ego" have to do with at least trying to be technically correct? What on earth is so admirable about ignoring physics and perpetuating bad information? I simply don't get it. Why test for knowledge and competency on a license exam and then ignore science altogether when it comes to actually practicing the hobby?
It doesn't require an "expert" to try to stay focused on the facts ... only someone who prefers not to remain ignorant.
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 14, 2009
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None of this means a guy should not enjoy his new antenna.
All the technical discussion is to prevent people from repeating incorrect information about gain, capture area, wave angle, noise, and other comparative things.
All construction errors removed, there is always less than 1 dB gain difference.
Capture area is always a function of gain and wavelength, not physical size of an antenna.
Wave angle, it is essentially the same for the same boom height.
Noise, it is essentially the same except for the p-static or corona in bad weather.
Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on September 14, 2009
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John - Seems like your right. When the experts come out all you get is mud slinging and a jock contest. Problem is their heads is so stuck up their egos they can't see the sun that shines. My knowledge mostly comes from those who wrote the book and it's seems like quite many if not all are wrong.
As you can see I was advised to read yet another book that defys all other antenna hand books in the world. Should I be so guliable to believe this one as well?
You can try to twist and make me seem guliable for believing in what I read, but once again I believe in building and comparing side by side for comparison. For about the forth time!
Even the book you suggested on buying probably wouldn't change my mind much. I'll tell you this much, to keep open minded and informed I'll find a copy because I wouldn't want to be so guliable to buying another book.
If given the opportunity to build another antenna farm one of the antennas I would certainly have would be a 4 el quad. Aside from a variety of yagis that would be best installed in certain applications to meet my needs I have a place for them as well.
My only advise to some is to not be afraid of trying out a quad versus a yagi. The construction of Quads can be improved to with stand the elements of nature. Take into consideration that when home brewed engineer flaws do exist. You can make it better!
73's!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N3OX on September 14, 2009
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"You're pretty gullible if you think anything written in a book is necessarily any more valid than something written elsewhere. "
I personally wouldn't push that too hard. ON4UN's Low Band book and the ARRL antenna book are, when taken as a whole, much more even and ... well, "correct" than what happens when you average over websites.
And the best part about a book is you can't argue with a book to the detriment of others' knowledge. Yes, you can find wrong information in them, and like Tom says, once it's in there, it's EVERYWHERE forever. But the GOOD information that is there sits there patiently awaiting your quiet re-reading of it.
It doesn't get immediately swamped by the tide of others' opinion.
Now, like W8JI says, books do endow the wrong things that happen to get published with a great weight of authority that they shouldn't have, but it does the same for the CORRECT things in a useful way and one with better signal-to-noise ratio.
N2RRA says:
"Like I have said before! I like to compare antennas in the real world. It is the true way you can be sure of your findings by comparing them. If there is a noticable difference you will see it. "
No doubt. I 100% agree with this, and absolutely support MEASUREMENT. You can't figure out what the discrepancies between theory and the real world are if you don't measure, and a good A/B test is fine.
But you're not just measuring. You're claiming to explain the vast difference between a yagi you tried and a quad you tried by saying that a yagi's pattern is more affected by height above ground than a quad's.
So I'd like to know: what's the source that says a quad's gain and directivity change differently with height than do a yagi's? Is this an original theory supported by many measurements of yagis at MANY heights in quick succession compared to similar measurements of quads at different heights?
The reason why I ask is because if a quad at 40 feet beat the pants off a much, much higher similar gain beam antenna of any kind in band opening and closing on long haul, I would be shocked. I'd be shocked even if I read it in a book. And I'd try to devise tests ... real MEASUREMENTS, to rule out EVERY other possibility, because I would be VERY surprised and fascinated by this result.
I would be very surprised by the result partially because I'm usually not at all surprised and never pleasantly surprised when I measure vs. look at model results or compare to what I read in a book. The measurement is always really messy compared to the model, but it's never in wild, blazing, shocking contradiction to the model.
If I got a result like yours, I would have considered it bizarre and spent weeks trying to figure out how it was possible.
I build a pair of 432MHz yagis. EZNEC says one has 6db better gain than the other. I fire up the receiver on a local beacon, turn the AGC off, and run the audio into a sound card and switch back and forth. What I found was something a bit noisy but 5.5dB or 6dB was consistent. With many, many averages I could put good tight error bars on that and confirm the model pretty well, probably.
The same goes for my 5 element 6m wire yagi vs. my little Moxon.
http://n3ox.net/files/sixyagi_lg.jpg
http://n3ox.net/files/VHFUHF.jpg (also has those 432 antennas)
EZNEC says that I should expect about 4dB better at low angles out of the 5 element yagi because it's even though it's 5 elements compared to two, it's little lower than the Moxon. Again, AGC off, point 'em both north with the W3VD (now W3APL) beacon audio into the soundcard, what do I find? 3dB sometimes, 4dB mostly... consistent with the models.
I built a flag receiving antenna. Should have a pretty decent cardioid null in the back. I try it on 1500kHz with the big, loud carrier from an AM station through a narrow CW filter as my signal source.
The pattern I measure reflects the messy reality of measurement:
http://n3ox.net/projects/flag/flagpattern_lg.JPG
Little bump in the back. What's that from? Insufficient feedline choking? Bad feedline routing? The fact that the thing is totally NOT in the clear but actually is near my gutters and metal shed? Not entirely sure at this point. Same with the little 2dB bump off to the left hand side of the pattern. What's that about? But this antenna pattern basically looks like an imperfect pattern of a flag antenna. It doesn't look like the pattern of a 2 wavelength Beverage or a W8JI eight circle vertical receiving array.
So let's move on to something REALLY weird. Something I have not been able to explain to my satisfaction:
http://n3ox.net/files/mox_compare.jpg
On the top, a modeled pattern of my 6m Moxon. On the bottom, a measured pattern with N3DB 25 miles away giving me a strong steady keydown.
But there's a big bite out of my pattern. A big slug of the "real world." And I don't know what it is. But it ain't good. I think it's probably a multipath issue and will eventually repeat the tests with someone who's truly line of sight or a "local" signal source. N3DB's signal was pretty warbly the whole time, and it's very familiar to all of us how rotating a television antenna can clear up the clearly multipath-distorted picture.
So you can see, I'm not just blabbering on about theoretical issues. I model antennas. I measure them. I get results ranging from pretty much what I expected to bizarre problems, and never once have I been surprised by unexpected fantastic performance where I thought there would be none. I've been pleased by *expected* good performance. My 12 element 432 yagi was a huge jump up from the little 4 element thing I was playing around with before. But there is no mystery there. Adding 6dB in a weak signal situation is huge.
But I get results which range from "what I expected" to "real world is ugly" on antennas. Without any prejudice, my comparisons either tend to confirm model results or reveal *problems* and things I didn't account for. It'd be real nice if all of a sudden I had a free 6dB or 10dB where I didn't expect it, or all of a sudden my beam with 18dB modeled F/B had 30dB instead, but that hasn't happened, and I think there's a really good reason why it can't happen. Almost all random influences that got left out of my models that can affect how a decently tuned, properly working antenna behaves will make it work worse than if they weren't there.
Now I don't have a big tower to compare a quad halfway up and a yagi on top. But I can model it, and I see that those models don't support what you're saying at all. And I can read books, and trusted webpages, and they also don't support what you're saying.
And I can think "Well, N2RRA has this weird result, and I'd like to understand that better"
But I have yet to see a substantiated claim (you know, that EXPLAINS the purported reason) that a low quad will beat a much much higher yagi of similar basic gain. You say you've read it in books. I can find a fair number of web pages that claim this too. There's a blurb in the Wikipedia article, some W8 says it on his page, and of course Cubex says it. None of those explain a plausible mechanism that wouldn't show up in an comparison of models.
And my experience has largely been: if you model it, it's gonna be about the same or worse than your model. Very rarely is there a magical EZNEC un-modelable thing that makes one antenna work a whole lot better, and the only ones that I can imagine at the moment that would affect high beam antennas in the clear is the effect of complex terrain... and if that is the case, you should be able to see it in HFTA.
73
Dan
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 14, 2009
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N2RAA,
You said:
"John - Seems like your right. When the experts come out all you get is mud slinging and a jock contest. Problem is their heads is so stuck up their egos they can't see the sun that shines. My knowledge mostly comes from those who wrote the book and it's seems like quite many if not all are wrong."
You may find this interesting. I wrote and edited or contributed in the background to various sections of some of the handbooks you reference.
What is the difference between direct conversation and reading it in a book? It is because a book seems more authoritative.
For example the ON4UN Handbook becomes more accurate every revision because the large group of people contributing find and correct errors. If it or any other book was perfect, they would never need revisions.
You will notice in the later revisions the earlier quad stuff was corrected and improved. It now correctly states (at least in the areas I read) there is essentially no electrical difference between a Yagi and a Quad.
What I have a difficult time with is why you take a technical discussion personally to the point where you and "John" call other people names. That seems counterproductive. If you had a real valid technical disagreement, you should be able to articulate the reason for disagreement without name calling.
Tom
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on September 14, 2009
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W8JI wrote: "Instead they quote amateur books that quote and repeat amateur mistakes or myths.
The logic is if something is in a book, it has to correct."
It's not just amateur books that have this problem, either.
Way back in the early-mid 1970s I had the good fortune to attend EE School. There was one professor who all of us EE students particularly admired - "Prof. W".
Prof. W. was in his 70s at the time and looked positively ancient to us 18-to-21-year-olds. He had graduated undergrad EE in 1921, back in the days when all Engineering students had to take courses in things like machine shop and blacksmithing. He had worked on many famous projects, and had done lots of work in industry.
Prof. W. taught all sorts of Engineering classes from electrostatics to power generation, but it didn't really matter because one took his classes as much for the experience of learning as the material learned.
He had an energy that, for lack of a better word, was pure electricity. He'd walk into class with a half-sheet of paper on which was written a complex analysis problem, draw the problem on the board and then proceed to show us how to solve it. No notes, no books, no slide rule, no calculator, no computer, no printout, just his own knowledge and skill. His explanations were clear and precise, making complex concepts clear and understandable to all. We would toss variations of the problems at him, and he'd solve the variations too, with no preparation at all. He knew Electrical Engineering backwards and forwards, upside down and inside out. We students thought we were sharp and fast but we had a hard time keeping up with him.
Sometimes the lessons were not exactly what was expected.
In senior year he taught a class on electrical generation, transmission and distribution. The textbook was a 500 page British book containing hundreds of problems, equations, diagrams, illustrations and charts. It stretched us a bit to learn terms like "earthing" and "speedgear", unfamiliar symbols and how to do some problems that weren't 60 Hz.
Prof W. felt that giving tests on Power was useless, because the problems were so complex. Grades were based on the homeworks, 4 to 5 problems per week, due on a specific day. We were on their our honor not to cheat, and we didn't.
Getting the right answer was only part of the process; you had to explain how you got it and why it was correct. Prof. W. would see right through any faking or copying. The problems were all from the book, and the answers weren't in the back.
2 weeks into the course came Problem 2.9:
"A 220 kV 60 Hz three phase transmission line is 200 miles long and has the following constants per phase per mile:
Inductance 2.1 mH
Capacitance 0.14 uF
Resistance 0.25 ohms
Ignore leakage conductance.
If the line is to deliver a load of 300 A, 0.8 power factor lagging, at a voltage of 220 kV, calculate the sending-end voltage."
Piece of cake, really.
There are several ways to solve such a problem, so I tried the first method - and got an answer that didn't seem right, because the numbers were much different than common Engineering sense would lead one to expect. So I tried a different solution method, and got a different nonsense answer. A book in the library gave another method, and when applied, it gave yet another nonsense answer.
None of the methods I tried produced a reasonable result. Checking and rechecking produced no math or procedural errors. Yet the correct solution eluded me and more than a few others in the class.
Some in the class had found the answer, or thought they had, because they weren't working on the homework as long as the rest of us. I wound up showing all three results in the papers I handed in, with an explanation that they were all wrong, but not why. Couldn't hurt and might get some partial credit.
After Prof. W collected the papers that day, we asked how to do Problem 2.9. He went to the board and wrote a very simple equation that relates the inductance and capacitance of a transmission line to the speed of light - something very basic in Electrical Engineering electromagnetic physics. First-year stuff. Just that basic equation and nothing more.
It took a few moments for the realization to dawn, but one by one we realized the connection. The transmission line parameters given in the book could never exist in physical reality. Not in our universe, anyway, because they violated the equation on the board.
The capacitance should have been 0.014 uF per mile, not 0.14 uF. That's why the nonsense answers.
We were outraged! We'd been had because of a misprint in a book! We protested, saying such a problem shouldn't be counted in the grading.
But Prof W. simply asked:
"Didn't you check that the data supplied were reasonable? People make mistakes in the real world, and dropping a decimal place is one of the easiest.
Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's right!"
Then the capper:
"Next thing you'll tell me is you believe everything that comes out of a computer!"
That year we created a teaching award in his honor, given to the best teacher in the school, as judged by the students. Of course he was the first winner.
Most of us went on to work in areas other than power transmission. No one forgot Problem 2.9, or the real lesson of that day. I still have the book.
Prof. W. passed away a few years ago at the age of 98. The teaching award continues.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB5GU on September 14, 2009
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About 3 years ago I had the same questions about the Quad, Log and yagi antennas. I put up 3 60' towers and installed an 8 el Log Periodic, a long boom 4 element 5 band Quad, and a 4 element triband Yagi. I already had a 2 element triband Quad on another tower. All were fed with 7/8" Heliax. All were hurricane tested with a direct hit by Ike, no failures attribituted to antennas (the log and 2 el quad were driven into the ground when a tree fell across the tower guys. No way was that attributable to either antenna).
My results in side by side usage.
#1 4 el Quad, clearly the best performer. Can hear stations on the Quad that were completely non-copy on the other antennas. Worked VU7 and VU4 easily (S-1 signal), no copy at all on the other antennas. Cons, assembly took a couple of days, kind of a PITA to install.
#2 The 4 element tri bander. Slightly better than the 2 el quad and the log.
#3 The 8 el Log. Although this antennas is 3rd on my list, it is also the antenna I recommend most often to friends. Gain is about the same as a 3 el yagi and the 2 element Quad. Positives, light and easy to install, very reasonably priced. 5 bands, instant band switching!
#4 2 element Quad.
YMMD
Marty AB5GU
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N0AH on September 14, 2009
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Still looking for all those contest stations with quads-
Wake up-
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The Biggest Quad I Ever Saw
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by N2EY on September 14, 2009
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K3JH had it, on his rotating tubular tower, back in the 1960-70s. The tower looked like a Big Bertha but was actually custom made.
He had monoband Yagis for 40, 20, 15 and 10 meters on that 107' tall rotating pole. (This was before the WARC bands).
The quad was 2 elements in a diamond configuration, and fully rotatable. There were motor-controlled adjustable inductors to tune it across the band, because it was for 80/75 meters.
The whole thing was on a half-acre suburban lot on a quiet street in Haverford PA.
It was awesome.
QST for May 1970.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The Biggest Quad I Ever Saw
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by WB2WIK on September 14, 2009
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Jim, I remember that very clearly as I visited K3JH's station a few times.
I also knew the fellow who picked up that callsign, Jim K3JH (the second!). Well, actually I knew Jim's wife Barbara WB3EJX mostly, but I met the second K3JH a few times. Jim worked for the Navy in Warminster.
It can be a curse to get a call like that, after someone so famous had it!
73
Steve WB2WIK/6
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by G3LBS on September 15, 2009
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N2EY Jim - I teach research methods in education to grads in Buffalo. I award a gold star for every mistake they find in the recommended textbook. Otherwise they believe and worship everything that has been published.
Gil W2/G3LBS
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RE: The Biggest Quad I Ever Saw
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by N2EY on September 15, 2009
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Steve,
It was a landmark in these parts. Particularly since it wasn't way out in the country on twenty acres, but right on a typical suburban street. It was one of those things you had to see to appreciate.
IIRC the original K3JH had a rather important position at RCA, back in the day.
When K3JH passed away, another ham (K3PA?) bought the place and used the antenna system for another 10 years or so. When *he* moved away, the whole thing was taken down.
I wish I had pictures.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The Biggest Quad I Ever Saw
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by KF4HR on September 15, 2009
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Several years ago I pondered a decision to go with either a multi-band Quad or a 3 element SteppIR yagi. I had used a 2 element multi-band quad while I was stationed in Germany many years ago and it worked great, although it did have issues with the wire elements occasionally breaking during ice storms or in high winds. And being a 3-dimensional antenna it was cumbersome to install and repair.
As for the SteppIR, like you I was concerned about the extra complexity, but in the end I ended up choosing it. It turned out to be a smart move because I haven't had a single problem with it in over 6 years. It has worked flawlessly even when loaded down with snow and ice. I found the SteppIR has many advantages over a conventional yagi. Within a few seconds you can reverse the direction of the antenna (director becomes the reflector and visaversa), or set it up in Bi-Directional mode. The antenna can be fine-tuned for anywhere in the bands (no antenna tuner required) and can be wired to automatically track your transceiver's band switching. Also, if you ever decided to sell it, they hold their value very well. One other nice option, when T-Storms roll in, all the elements can be retracted so the metal signature of the antenna becomes a much smaller target for lightning.
Like I mentioned above, I haven't had a single problem with my SteppIR antenna, but the antenna failing is a concern you could always buy one extra motor/element assembly, and you'd be set. Although due to the dependability of the SteppIR, that seems like a waste of money to me.
As far as working DX, I'm not an avid DX chaser but do chase DX on occasion (200+ worked). With very few exceptions, one or two calls gets me through with the SteppIR. Of course there's more to working a lot of DX than just having a good signal. Timing, anticipating the DX stations split frequency, antenna height, approach angle of the incoming signal, operating style, etc, all weighs into the picture. Heck, sometimes even just pure luck.
Bottom line, if I had to do it again, I'd buy a SteppIR antenna without a moments hesitation.
KF4HR
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WX7G on September 15, 2009
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A 2-3 S-unit difference tells us the TH6 has something very wrong with it. The difference between a correctly functioning TH6 and the quad should be 0 to 1/2 S-unit.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W8JI on September 15, 2009
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Much of the problem here, and in other places, goes back to how things are measured.
Someone gave the example of a quad compared to a log periodic and a tribander.
We all know a log periodic is a low gain antenna for the number of elements and boom length. This is because the log is a string of elements along the boom with only a small cell of a few close-spaced elements active at any time. Most of the boom and material in the elements is hanging there doing nothing.
Tribanders are another compromise, but not because of trap losses as is usually claimed. The losses are generally because of compromises in element spacing and tuning. Designs are often more for SWR and bandwidth with some attention to F/B ratio rather than gain. I know this because marketing people understand people can measure SWR easily and they notice the nulling of signals when an antenna is turned, but they really have no observation of a few dB gain difference.
What happens is we do a skewed test, where an antenna not optimized on a single band is compared to one that is, and we wrongly attribute differences to the physical shape of the antenna.
This is why we have to carefully think things through and plan tests to actually test what we want to know. Otherwise we reach meaningless conclusions that teach us something totally wrong.
Why would we compare an antenna with a 50 foot boom full of active elements all along the boom to another antenna the same boom length but with only two or three very close-spaced elements active?
To test an antenna to see if the quad element really produced better results, an equal number of optimized elements should be distributed along the same length boom.
When that is done, the results are clear and repeatable. Electrically the systems have insignificant differences. Under optimum conditions (freespace) a single square quad element has about 1 dB gain, and that difference becomes LESS as elements are added or the antenna is moved over a groundplane of some type, like earth.
We can yammer on and on for years about one bad test setup or another comparing antennas that are dissimilar in 100 ways and concluding the results are because of the shape, but the physics of the system does not change. Whether you use a computer model or work it out longhand like we had to do in the 70's and earlier, or if we measure it FAIRLY and correctly, we find the difference electrically is insignificant.
It really comes down to which system we like, and is nothing at all about one being magic.
I won't use a quad, like most people with a lot of antennas, because they are a PITA to handle, install, and maintain. For all the mechanical nightmare I would get zero dB extra gain, or maybe even a little extra loss, over a Yagi with thick aluminum elements.
Other people may not mind the mechanical issues, and might want something "different". Different is fine, but there is no reason for anyone on either side to invent magical results that do not and can not exist just because they did a comparison of grossly dissimilar or defective systems.
Tom
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RE: The Biggest Quad I Ever Saw
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by WB2WIK on September 15, 2009
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>RE: The Biggest Quad I Ever Saw Reply
by N2EY on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
Steve,
It was a landmark in these parts. Particularly since it wasn't way out in the country on twenty acres, but right on a typical suburban street. It was one of those things you had to see to appreciate.<
::Yes, I remember.
Another "interesting" setup was at Pres, W3MFY's place (the owner of Trevose Hamtronics, Trevose, PA). I remember visiting Pres a few times in the 70s and being just awed by what he did on a postage-stamp suburban lot: His self supporting tower must have been 120' tall or so, with stacked Telrex monobanders on a 30' or so tall mast above that. My memory might be hazy (it's been probably 30 years) but it seems to me that if his tower fell it would have landed on maybe two other neighbors' properties!
73
Steve WB2WIK/6
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB0RXL on September 15, 2009
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Great story and point, N2EY.
BTW, when I was serving at HCJB, an engineer who had known Mr. Moore told me the story of an A / B test he would set up for other hams. He would switch between a yagi and a quad. (Sorry - I don't know how many elements.) After the test ended and the student had ackowledged the superiority of the quad, Mr. Moore would issue the person a certificate declaring him to have received a PHD - Positively Heard the Difference. I saw one of these certificates and they were very impressive.
At one time I had a set of boom to spreader mounts that Mr. Moore had made from cast aluminum - with his callsign on each. I tried to set something up, but since the boom was too light weight, we never could get the thing up into the air. Eventually in order to keep HCJB's 24 element quad antenna to Europe on the air, I gave the fiberglass spreaders up for the cause. I think I lost mounts during our relocation back to the US.
73.
John
WB0RXL
(formerly HC1QH)
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W5AOX on September 15, 2009
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I can't stand to read all this gibberish, but I do have to interject a mild comment:
For a non engineering homebrewer (as I am) to argue with someone like WB2WIK or W8JI, who is an acknowledged antenna design expert with many many years, experiments, and reviewed publications about antennas, is just ignorant. My first thought when you described the amazing ability of the quad to hear stuff the TH6DX couldn't was "His coax to the beam is shorted or full of water, or disconnected, or something...."
I used to think quads were great until I built some of my own. Quagis as described by N6NB are GREAT at VHF and 432 but in my experience from 50 MHZ down they are not worth the effort, and have not demonstrated ANY superiority in any way over regular linear antenna elements. The fact that real life experts such as W8JI agree with my personal experience prejudices me on their behalf...
To think ARRL has some claim to engineering superiority is a bit daft too. I like ARRL, and am a long time member, but their handbooks and "information" has changed over the years along with the level of expertise they can afford to hire as tech editors, staff engineers, etc.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KB2DHG on September 15, 2009
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YAGI hands down. I had a Mosley TA-33 that lasted 28 years through snow, ice, winds and all sorts of weather. NEVER HAD ONE PROBLEM AND I OWRKED THE WORLD on no more than 100watts!
It would still be up today if I didn't have to move!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N6AJR on September 15, 2009
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Once again I will agree with the comment for the Steppir. Mine was bought used, and has been up here for around 5 years or so. the only problem came when one of the zip ties holding the coax to the boom failed ( a white one, I was out of black uv proof ties) and the coax came out of the connector. the steppir was fine, coax pulling out oaf a connector is a my bad, not an antenna problem.
I know a lot of folks disagree on the resonance part of the steppirs but they do work effectivly.
As a point of interest here is a little something to play with on the subject of resonance. You will need a mfj 259 and a field strenght meter, and a couple of antennas.
You will need to use a mfj 259 antenna analyzer ( or equivlent), and a couple of antennas in the same range but different frequencies, like a 2 meter antenna and an air band antenna.
First put on the 2 meter antenna and tune the analyzer from the low end to the hi end of the 114 to 170 position on the 259b.
If you watch the field strength meter it will be at or near the zero mark through most of the sweep. When you get int the 144 to 148 range you will see the FSM show an increase then a decrease in power as you go through the 2 m antenna's resonance range.
From 114 to about 144 mhz the Field AStrength Meter will be at the low end. It will jump up through the 144-148 mzh zone and then drop low from 148 or so till the 174 mark.
Now put on the air band antenna. Do the same sweep with the 259b. You will see the field strength meter now run up from about 118 to about 122 mhz and be on the bottom on all other frequencies. This is when the air band antenna is resonant.
When the antenna is in its resonant portion it "couples more power to the aether" . The whole time the mfj 259b is putting out the same couple of miliwatts across the band, reguardless of what antenna is on.
As you enter the resonant " sweet spot" of the antenna it transmits you best signal. You have the best eficiency in transfering power to the air waves. And you get the least amount of "roll back" on these new "smart" radios too.
This is one reason why a Steppir antenna is so good, because it can be tuned for that " sweet spot" on every part of every band in its range.
So resonance and swr are not every thing, but they do make a difference.
Just my opinion, you're milage may vary... :)
And the fellow who said the quad was resonant because it was a full wave is right and wrong. it is resonant on a specific frequency depencing on length of wire ( and other surrounding items like height above ground, near by metal etc) but only one specific frequency. at all other frequencies the swr goes up and the output power decreases .
so yes quads do work and be set up to switch in coils to change frequency of choice, but mthe steppir gets longer or shorte elements which make it close to a "perfect"Z radiator on anywhere in its range.
the spacing is fixed and so the F/B changes on the antenna by freq, but it still works well because most antenna, be they Yagi or quad have fixed distances between elements and most are too close for optimum spacing, but whom has room for a 60 foot boom on 10 meters??
I am no expert, but I have had good luck with the steppir.
I also have had seveal aluminumimuminum antennas up, ( a wilson SY-2, an MA5B and others, but I find the 3 element steppir my favorite.
Next best antenna is the good old fan dipole with wires cut to the freq you want to operate on. ( its a lot cheaper too.
best of all , be sure to put up some kind of antenna, because any antena is better than no antenna at all. Even a SGC 237 and a 9 foot long wire will transmit somewhere.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N6AJR on September 15, 2009
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Once again I will agree with the comment for the Steppir. Mine was bought used, and has been up here for around 5 years or so. the only problem came when one of the zip ties holding the coax to the boom failed ( a white one, I was out of black uv proof ties) and the coax came out of the connector. the steppir was fine, coax pulling out oaf a connector is a my bad, not an antenna problem.
I know a lot of folks disagree on the resonance part of the steppirs but they do work effectivly.
As a point of interest here is a little something to play with on the subject of resonance. You will need a mfj 259 and a field strenght meter, and a couple of antennas.
You will need to use a mfj 259 antenna analyzer ( or equivlent), and a couple of antennas in the same range but different frequencies, like a 2 meter antenna and an air band antenna.
First put on the 2 meter antenna and tune the analyzer from the low end to the hi end of the 114 to 170 position on the 259b.
If you watch the field strength meter it will be at or near the zero mark through most of the sweep. When you get int the 144 to 148 range you will see the FSM show an increase then a decrease in power as you go through the 2 m antenna's resonance range.
From 114 to about 144 mhz the Field AStrength Meter will be at the low end. It will jump up through the 144-148 mzh zone and then drop low from 148 or so till the 174 mark.
Now put on the air band antenna. Do the same sweep with the 259b. You will see the field strength meter now run up from about 118 to about 122 mhz and be on the bottom on all other frequencies. This is when the air band antenna is resonant.
When the antenna is in its resonant portion it "couples more power to the aether" . The whole time the mfj 259b is putting out the same couple of miliwatts across the band, reguardless of what antenna is on.
As you enter the resonant " sweet spot" of the antenna it transmits you best signal. You have the best eficiency in transfering power to the air waves. And you get the least amount of "roll back" on these new "smart" radios too.
This is one reason why a Steppir antenna is so good, because it can be tuned for that " sweet spot" on every part of every band in its range.
So resonance and swr are not every thing, but they do make a difference.
Just my opinion, you're milage may vary... :)
And the fellow who said the quad was resonant because it was a full wave is right and wrong. it is resonant on a specific frequency depencing on length of wire ( and other surrounding items like height above ground, near by metal etc) but only one specific frequency. at all other frequencies the swr goes up and the output power decreases .
so yes quads do work and be set up to switch in coils to change frequency of choice, but mthe steppir gets longer or shorte elements which make it close to a "perfect"Z radiator on anywhere in its range.
the spacing is fixed and so the F/B changes on the antenna by freq, but it still works well because most antenna, be they Yagi or quad have fixed distances between elements and most are too close for optimum spacing, but whom has room for a 60 foot boom on 10 meters??
I am no expert, but I have had good luck with the steppir.
I also have had seveal aluminumimuminum antennas up, ( a wilson SY-2, an MA5B and others, but I find the 3 element steppir my favorite.
Next best antenna is the good old fan dipole with wires cut to the freq you want to operate on. ( its a lot cheaper too.
best of all , be sure to put up some kind of antenna, because any antena is better than no antenna at all. Even a SGC 237 and a 9 foot long wire will transmit somewhere.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on September 15, 2009
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N2QQF writes: "The issue I had was the elements were off from one another. I had some elements loosen and some strong winds we had moved the elements so they were not broadside from one another."
IOW, some of the tribander elements rotated around the boom so they were no longer horizontal. There is no mention of whether this condition was fixed, or if the Yagi was checked for other problems such as bad coax or loose connections.
And so the situation was this:
A brand-new 3 element quad is being compared to a TH6DX of unknown vintage with misaligned elements and possibly other problems. The antennas are at about the same height and the quad beats the tribander Yagi.
Seems to me that's a pretty reasonable result, all things considered. And I don't see anyone questioning it. Everyone is glad that the new antenna works better than the old.
What *IS* being questioned is the idea that this single comparison is somehow "proof" that all quads are somehow much better than all Yagis of similar size and design criteria. Both theory and years of experience by amateurs and professionals disprove such claims.
Also being questioned are summary statements about quads having much lower takeoff angles, much lower noise, much better performance at low heights, etc. without any real evidence to back them up. Again, both theory and years of experience by amateurs and professionals disprove such claims.
The single comparison made is NOT proof of the general case, because we don't really know how good or bad that particular TH6DX really is.
What *would* be a good test would be to compare a shiny new TH6DX to a new quad of similar dimensions at the same height. What would make it a real double-blind scientific experiment would be if the operator didn't know which antenna was which, just A vs. B. And after each QSO, the coaxs might or might not be swapped.
Even better would be a side-by-side comparison of an optimized monoband Yagi to an optimized monoband quad of the same boom length. That eliminates the multiband-compromise and trap issues.
All this is just basic common sense and the scientific method. It makes me sad that, to at least some amateurs posting here, those things seem to make no difference.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on September 15, 2009
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WB0RXL writes: "Great story and point, N2EY."
TNX.
Once the shock wore off, we realized that Prof. W. knew the subject so well that he'd been able to spot the mistake in a book crammed full of problems and formulas - and creative enough to turn it into a teaching tool.
WRT your story and the "PHD", it reminds me of a story in QST many years back.
A ham had been using a horizontal dipole on 10 and found it to be only so-so. He put up a ground plane according to a QST article and expected great things - but was disappointed. In A-B comparisons, both DX and local, the old dipole beat the GP time after time.
He added radials, cleaned all the connections even though they were new, borrowed a meter and double-checked the SWR (it was better than 1.2 to 1) and even invested in a fancy coax switch for instant comparisons.
He even wrote to QST and the author, asking for advice and an explanation. They sent ideas and he tried them all.
Still, the old dipole beat the new groundplane every time.
Beaten, he set about taking down the ground plane, convinced that verticals were just no good.
Then he discovered that he'd mislabeled the feedlines at the shack end. What he thought was the dipole was actually the GP....
(cue Emily Lutella voice):
"Never mind!"
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on September 15, 2009
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W5AOX writes: "For a non engineering homebrewer (as I am) to argue with someone like WB2WIK or W8JI, who is an acknowledged antenna design expert with many many years, experiments, and reviewed publications about antennas, is just ignorant."
It's not about the person.
It's about the validity of the exact statements.
The truth is true no matter who says it. Same for a mistake.
"The fact that real life experts such as W8JI agree with my personal experience prejudices me on their behalf..."
With all due respect - it shouldn't.
Both quads and Yagis are different implementations of the same basic concept: antenna directivity by means of parasitic elements that are resonant above and/or below the operating frequency. The big difference is that Yagis use linear elements and quads use loop elements.
Antenna engineering is more than 90% mechanical engineering and less than 10% electrical engineering.
The best-performing antenna in the world doesn't do you any good at all if it falls down an hour before the contest starts.
"To think ARRL has some claim to engineering superiority is a bit daft too. I like ARRL, and am a long time member, but their handbooks and "information" has changed over the years along with the level of expertise they can afford to hire as tech editors, staff engineers, etc."
IMHO ARRL books range from very good to excellent, and they've always had really good people write them.
But it must be remembered that even the best and brightest make mistakes. This is particularly true when trying to cover a lot of information, and to simplify things for the reader who doesn't have an extensive background in math and science.
There's also the problem of misinterpretation; of the reader taking some things out of context, forgetting how a statement was qualified elsewhere, etc.
Most of all there's the fact that we now have tools the Ancient Ones could not have dreamed of. Try doing what they did with only the tools they had available, and you'll see how easy it is to be fooled by data or to make a mistake.
That doesn't mean we have to repeat it!
---
As for quad-vs.-Yagi, it seems to me they both have their place. It all depends on the application.
For example, if I wanted to homebrew a lightweight HF beam for Field Day and had a source of spreader material, a 2 element spider quad would be the obvious choice. (Not many ice storms in late June unless you do FD from atop Mt. Washington).
But does that mean the quad is the best choice for all applications? Of course not!
73 de Jim, N2EY
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KM6CQ on September 15, 2009
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Hi Frank,
I would like you to know that I enjoyed reading your article and thank you for taking the time to write and post it. I can't say I enjoyed reading the replies near as much as a lot of them do not enjoy your level of good character. I have never had a Quad and do not ever plan on putting one up. But you have me interested in them and I would like to learn more about them.
It looks apparent to me that it is a lot like the metric versus Harley Davidson debate. That is the only one's who complain about Harley's are the ones that do not own them. If that makes sense to you.
I am glad your new antenna is working great for you and that you are enjoying it.
73, Dan
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WX4O on September 15, 2009
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This topic is old. Please change it. It's boring.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB2WIK on September 15, 2009
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>My Quest for a New Antenna Reply
by KM6CQ on September 15, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
It looks apparent to me that it is a lot like the metric versus Harley Davidson debate. That is the only one's who complain about Harley's are the ones that do not own them.<
::I must be the exception. I have an 883 Sportster and I complain about it all the time.
;-)
But in CA you can ride the lines, and how great is that?
WB2WIK/6
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N3OX on September 15, 2009
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"But it must be remembered that even the best and brightest make mistakes. This is particularly true when trying to cover a lot of information, and to simplify things for the reader who doesn't have an extensive background in math and science."
Absolutely. The problem is rarely the source itself, more the unquestioning acceptance of it. You can have more or less trust in a source, but complete trust is not the best way to go. I trust my trusted sources because I am enough of a skeptic to look for conflicting evidence regarding what they say, and when I do that with, say, W8JI, I find that he's almost always exactly right ;-)
"Quads hold up better at lower heights compared to yagis" is an important false statement in the lore of quads.
The explanation that supports or refutes this claim is the real answer. We shouldn't submit to the answer given by an authority without also knowing for ourselves that it's true. We shouldn't seek out results that confirm our prejudices (and especially shouldn't seek out tenuous statements that confirm a single experiment's weird results). We should consider things that conflict with our current thinking and convince ourselves from the ground up that they're wrong, if we can.
I'm not saying we should spend all our time reading crazy crackpot theories of antennas... Just don't quote your authorities without understanding what they have to say.
There are a lot of situations, especially in online forums, in which the argument is in reality very lopsided. This is one of those questions, as far as I can tell. On the side of "quads are just another horizontal antenna" you have models, basic linear superposition and wave interference, analogies like the one W8JI made early on, a wide variety of sources on the effects of the ground on horizontally polarized antennas.
On the side of "quads are special," what I've found so far are manufacturer websites, both ham and CB, and a bunch of un-cited, evidenceless statements strewn across the internet. If anyone can point me toward something more substantial, I would like to read it.
This question: "are quads special, or just another beam antenna?" would seem to have a clear answer rooted deeply in basic antenna theory and practice.
A true expert is someone who explained this right answer, from basic principles, to him or herself immediately upon hearing the question. The rest of us should probably spend some time trying to convince ourselves through more complex and time consuming means what the right answer should be. I haven't found anything so far that says quads are special.
The right answer to a scientific question is never a quotation or a simply stated fact. It's an understanding built on a foundation of basic ideas. A true, trusted expert in a field is just someone with enough understanding and experience to take an short-cut through a new problem and convince themselves of the right answer without having to look anything up!
I think, then, that the real role of that trusted source is to give us the "right answer," the endpoint, so that we can more easily work through the bit in the middle between the question and the "answer." It's that bit in the middle that actually answers whatever question we had.
73
Dan
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W6PU on September 15, 2009
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I built my first Quad in 1953 and have been DXing and contesting with them ever since.
You might enjoy reading
"The Evolution Of a 4 Element Double Driven Quad by W6PU
in the Dec 1983 Issue of CQ Magazine.
73!
Bob W6PU ex W6PLH ex K2DGT
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB4ROA on September 15, 2009
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I am afraid I am yet another Harley (Quad) supporter. Before I could put up my 72' tower I used a 30' telephone pole with piping supporting the rotor and a 5-band, 2-element Quad. The Quad just worked well at 30'. Nothing else I can say. In pile-ups competing with 70-100' towers and well respected yagis, I would get through. Maybe not the first or second call, but I would get through within 10 or so calls. I don't know why, and I surely cannot prove that a Quad at 30' is competitive with high yagis. Only thing that makes any sense at all is take-off angle.
The Quad opening and closing bands, is for sure, believe it.
Later when I could afford it, I put up a 72' tower and guess which antenna I put on top? The Quad of course. Does it perform better at 72' than 30', yes, of course. Receive is quiet and front to back works for me. I do some RTTY and CW contesting and I can pretty much work very near to another station working Europe when I point towards South America. The other station almost disappears after about 20 degrees. Do I know why? Nope. Do I care why? Nope. It just works, kind of like that ridiculous pink battery bunny...
I will admit ice is not a problem along the coast of NC, but hurricanes sure are. No matter what type of antenna is on top, I would not consider a tower that could not be lowered, or in my case, a hazer that allows me to bring the Quad down to the ground and stake it out if necessary.
I do have to admit that my Quad was damaged once during a high wind storm. While setting near the ground a limb from a tree broke off and hit one of the spreaders. Had I left it in the air there would have been no damage. Go figure the odds.
The Quad routinely rides out 70 mph winds that are pretty common with Nor’easters. Sometimes the wind bows the spreaders in when they should flex out, but I see no change in performance. I rectify that by turning the Quad to the proper angle during the next blow to allow the spreaders to pop back to their prescribed position.
No one will ever settle the Quad vs. Yagi debate. Main thing is you are happy with you antenna, and you can communicate with the stations you call? Did I forget to mention the great bird rest all that wire makes?
Keep workin'em and have fun. That's what it is all about. Remember, today’s computer models are the great grandchildren of the models that told us bumblebees could not fly. I guess the bumblebee missed that study.
When we depend on studies and experiments conducted by others too much we lose the spirit of adventure and experimentation that makes our hobby so much fun for such a wide diversity of interests.
73, Hank WB4ROA
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by G3LBS on September 16, 2009
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For me the quad has always been better on performance than say a Moseley CL-33, but also it can easily be home-brewed. It certainly separates the men from the boys(sorry ladies for political incorrectness). I could afford to buy, but would get no satisfaction from buying an antenna, but you are welcome to do so.
You can check quad loop and feeder continuity from the shack - I wonder if you could pass sufficient current through it to melt the ice? A pity you couldn't use nichrome wire?
W2/G3LBS
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 16, 2009
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WX4O: "This topic is old. Please change it. It's boring."
I assume that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Otherwise, it's like walking across the room to change the TV channel to C-Span and then complaining that the show is boring. Or didn't you remember what this forum thread was about when you clicked on it again?
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 16, 2009
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G3LBS: "I wonder if you could pass sufficient current through it to melt the ice?"
I'm pretty sure you could, but you'd probably have to open the feedline at the shack and apply the voltage for the melting current right at the feedpoint to avoid heating the feedline as well. Trying to do it from the shack would probably risk ruining your feedline (coax or ladder line) unless you used open wire transmission line with high temp spreaders.
Even so, you'd still have all that ice on the quad spreaders, which I suspect weighs more and lasts longer than whatever collects on the wires.
73,
Dave AB7E
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KC9HGJ on September 16, 2009
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To the original poster of this thread........you lucky bastard.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N3OX on September 16, 2009
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"Remember, today’s computer models are the great grandchildren of the models that told us bumblebees could not fly. I guess the bumblebee missed that study. "
Plenty of people understand scientifically, through experiments and computer models, how bumblebees manage to fly. Here's some modern work :
http://dragonfly.tam.cornell.edu/insect.html
This trope is so old and worn out. Here's some history that sets out the story:
http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/98/bees
Why do I insist on going on and on about the bumblebee thing on a ham radio forum? Because it's probably really been settled for 90 years, and seems (according to that link) to have sprung out of ONE PERSON's erroneous calculation and pronouncement based on what probably were excessive and unreasonable assumptions (like bumblebee = airplane?).
But it's used today, in 2009 to justify the "wrongness" of computer models that do nothing more than find a numerical solution to 125 year old equations which have a rich history of complete, detailed predictive power regarding classical electrodynamics.
- - - - - -
If you prefer experiments to models, great. Amateur radio is not about being a radio engineer, it's about learning.
But that's no reason to non-specifically call into question the validity of antenna models.
NEC-2 based models like most of us use have a few built in assumptions (thin wires or tubes, for one) and a poor ability to handle a *few* external issues (terrain, soil), but a good modeler keeps the built in assumptions in mind and checks the validity, and generally speaking, the external assumptions will affect affect all antennas you might compare in an equal way.
If you'd rather sling wire and tubing in your backyard than sit in front of your computer fiddling with numbers, I'm all for that. But dismissing models all at once with a "oh, they're just a MODEL, they're just an approximation of reality" is counterproductive. Calling into question a scientific prediction without saying why it's invalid or by how much is not helping anyone understand antennas. It's just putting doubt in their minds, making them think that models are wrong enough to worry about that.
The ONLY time I would consider a well-formed and well converged NEC-2 model "wrong enough to worry about" is when they're predicting the absolute gain of ground mounted vertical antennas without some sort of experimental loss correction added in. For other types of antennas, like HF beam antennas in the clear, a NEC-2 model is only going to be appreciably wrong if you put appreciably wrong assumptions in or you do something that violates the numerical rules.
Bees can fly. We know bees can fly. Antennas work, and so do antenna models. If you don't like the models, fine. But please don't try to dismiss them in general.
I think I agree with you when you say :
"When we depend on studies and experiments conducted by others too much we lose the spirit of adventure and experimentation that makes our hobby so much fun for such a wide diversity of interests. "
However, I see a lot of hams who do an experiment and learn something totally incorrect from it because something went wrong. But that caused the experiment to seem to agree with a desired outcome, so they accept the weird result. And then they tell all their friends about this "real world" effect they saw which was really a mistake. They become an "experiment guru" with a whole bunch of incorrect theories about why they saw the results that they did. If you tell them you think they're wrong, they cite their original experiment instead of trying it again. After all, they did the "real world experiment" This is the issue. It's very hard to do careful antenna experiments beyond whether or not you're happy with the antenna. And the results of a flawed experiment get propagated throughout ham radio justified by little more than "theory doesn't work, do experiments"
This is a nasty feedback loop, and as someone who compares the theory (models) with experimental measurements and generally finds good agreement, I find this idea disheartening and think that people are missing an opportunity by dismissing models.
73
Dan
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 16, 2009
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I fully agree with N3OX on the subject of antenna modeling. I'd bet that in most cases the people who dismiss computer modeling as being a poor substitute for trial-and-error, or because it refutes their favorite misconception, have never bothered to learn how to properly use such a program. For sure, all such programs have their accuracy limitations and can give erroneous results if not properly used, but you can say that about most situations ... including Ohms Law.
I'm no expert with the program, but I've learned more about antennas from using EZNEC over the past several years (I started with the original version) than I have from any other source. I enjoy modeling different configurations (and have tried MANY of them in preparation for Field Day over the years), and anytime I get a result I don't expect I study both the model and my concept of the antenna until I understand the disparity. In the case of EZNEC, looking at the computed current distributions along the elements usually points me to the problem, and in many (maybe even most) of the cases it was my understanding of the antenna that was flawed, not the model.
I have two Optibeam yagis on my 70 foot tower. One is a 2-element 40m coil-loaded shorty-40 with a hairpin match and decoupling stubs suspended under the elements (to avoid interaction problems on 15m). The other antenna is a 16-element tribander with full size elements (4 on 20m, 4 on 15m, and 8 on 10m) and a phasing line connecting the three driven elements to allow single-coax feed. The accompanying manuals for both antennas give the exact dimensions and position of the elements, and I carefully measured everything else (decoupling stubs, coil inductance, phasing line, etc) before I put up the antennas. I entered the information for both antennas into EZNEC and guess what? My actual measured results for gain pattern (I can't measure absolute gain) and SWR curve match the model almost exactly for both antennas. The tribander required no tweaking of the model, but the decoupling stubs on the shorty-40 took a little playing with to get right. And before someone claims that the results would have been different if the antennas weren't up so high, I checked the SWR curve of the tribander at 20 feet while I was raising it and it was the same as what I later got from the model when I set it to 20 feet.
Do I trust modeling explicitly? Hell no. In the first place I'm not good enough at it, and in the second place there are enough real-world factors like proximity to structures, feedlines, or other antennas (as well as the known limitations of the program) to require caution in the acceptance of results. I do, however, trust computer modeling of antennas far more than I trust anecdotal evidence from experiments with poorly controlled variables, and I trust modeling far more than I do unsubstantiated claims from people who don't even really know how their antennas work.
Theory isn't less admirable than practice ... it's how we come to understand what we experience and it's what keeps the hobby from degenerating into mythology and superstition. Computer modeling merely puts the application of antenna theory into a usable form.
73,
Dave AB7E
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB4M on September 16, 2009
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Frank, I have a 20+ year old TH7DX tribander and I would never trade it for a quad or a SteppIR. You own one of the best beam antennas around. I can raise/lower mine with a gin-pole and sufficent length of rope.
You should take into consideration your local weather before putting up a quad. My TH7 has gone through several ice loadings and one direct hurricane (Fran, 1996) with no problems at all. A quad would have been a tangled mess after the first storm. You also are not going to make a whopping difference in any gain difference; I feel sure whatever you could work on a quad would be workable on your TH6. I work anyone I hear, and break pile-ups without too much difficulty, often the first call. Unless you are after something directional for 12 and 17 meters, I'd suggest keeping the TH6.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on September 16, 2009
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N3OX: "Why do I insist on going on and on about the bumblebee thing on a ham radio forum? Because it's probably really been settled for 90 years, and seems (according to that link) to have sprung out of ONE PERSON's erroneous calculation and pronouncement based on what probably were excessive and unreasonable assumptions (like bumblebee = airplane?).
But it's used today, in 2009 to justify the "wrongness" of computer models that do nothing more than find a numerical solution to 125 year old equations which have a rich history of complete, detailed predictive power regarding classical electrodynamics."
Well, that's one reason - and a good one.
Here's another.
We hams have the tradition of using lower sideband SSB on 160, 75, and 40 meters, and upper sideband on 20, 17, 15, 12 and 10 meters. This is different from almost all other HF users of SSB, who have pretty much standardized on upper sideband.
The natural question is: how did the ham tradition originate?
Almost every time that question is asked in an amateur radio forum, someone will pipe up with the story that it comes from the early use of SSB rigs that generated the SSB at ~9 MHz and then converted it to either 75 or 20 meters by mixing with a ~5 MHz VFO. Sometimes a particular rig or article is named. The story states that doing so inverts the sideband on one band but not the other, and thus the tradition started.
I've lost count of how many times I've seen or heard that story, and how many hams have told me it was the absolute truth.
The problem is, that story cannot be true because sideband inversion doesn't work that way. With a 9 MHz SSB generator and 5 MHz VFO, the sideband doesn't invert on either band.
You don't have to trust me on this; just do the math and you'll see. The tuning direction of the VFO inverts, but not the sideband. Yet the myth keeps resurfacing.
(The truth is that if you use a ~5 MHz SSB generator and a 9 MHz VFO, you get the sideband inversion).
Some ask "what's the harm if some hams believe a myth like that? It's a cute story even if it's not strictly true".
The problem is this: One of the reasons for the existence of Amateur Radio is education. Not that we hams are supposed to all be at the EE level, or anything like it, but that we're supposed to know more about Radio than the average person. At the very least, we know some fundamentals and the difference between fact and myth when it comes to how Radio actually works.
So when an amateur blindly repeats an obvious mistake like that one, it makes us all look kinda dumb. Damages our credibility as knowing much about radio, or even the basics of one of the most popular modes we use!
Particularly when the truth is so easily proven.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W9AC on September 17, 2009
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> "I have never seen convincing evidence that a Quad produces a notably lower angle of radiation vs. a typical yagi."
Whether discussing a Yagi or quad, the take-off angle is still largely a function of the intermediate and far-field distance characteristics of the terrain.
Paul, W9AC
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K2LCK on September 18, 2009
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I guess you have figured out that there is no good answer... Like software, the antenna you know best is the best antenna. The differances are minor and dependant upon condx at a particular time/date/place that any real comparison is almost foolish. In the long run, however, after the quad owner maintains his quad over the years, only the most stubborn do not go back to a yagi.. Ed k2lck
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W1EBM on September 18, 2009
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I went thru a similar analysis, but my choices were mono-banders (20M - 10M) vs a Log Periodic, on a new tower I put up.
(And I had to consider wire antennas for 30 & 40M).
After evaluating the costs vs. the spec's., the Log Periodic was the superior choice, for 40M - 10M.
I put up the LP, an 8-element "monster" from M2 Inc., covering 40M thru 10M.....at 100 ft. on the tower.
Performance on all bands has been fantastic ! With 100 watts on CW, I easily break huge DX pile-ups, usually on the 1st call.
73,
Gary W1EBM
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by AB7E on September 18, 2009
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Claiming to be able to "break a pileup on the first call" has got to be one of the least objective ways of assessing antenna performance.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KA3DNR on September 20, 2009
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Hello folks,
I've had a yagi and quad up at the same time, both at 30 feet. Not high, I realize. The quad was consistently "quieter", gave me less QSB issues, and the bands stayed open longer for me on the quad. It got so obvious that I took down the yagi. The quad is pretty fragile against the windy-icy elements though.
Enjoy your quad.
Marc
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by MACKAY3031 on September 20, 2009
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I learned about quads from the old erroneous sources, so I did some reading.The one thing I do not get is this:I have heard more than a few times that quads hear sooner and also close the band.What can this be?According to the the stuff I recently read the claim is the quad actually has LESS response at high angle than a yagi.Could the anecdotal accounts be from beam distortion in multi band quads?Or is it only caused by local terrain....which also seems bizarre to favor the quad so.I am no wizard on the modeling software so I would be very happy to hear from someone if the element interaction on a sub optimum quad could explain this, and thereby explain the effect or bury it once and for all.Thanks from KI4WCA
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by WB2WIK on September 20, 2009
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Not many have had brand-new, unaged, perfect condition quads and Yagis up at the same time at similar heights to make direct comparisons.
However, Overbeck N6NB did a huge field experiment that lasted several weeks and was all reported with photographs, charts and data in Ham Radio Magazine in the late 70s. Cebik W4RNL did similar field trials again only a few years ago, using real world antennas side by side (no calculations, actual empirical analysis based on direct hardware comparisons).
These guys are both Ph.Ds and did an excellent reporting job.
There wasn't a single case of a quad outperforming a Yagi of equivalent size and identical height on the same property. Not even one time.
Wayne (N6NB) did something that probably hadn't ever been done before: He visited numerous "quad owner" hams who were "big gun" DXers and pulled into their driveways with a 70' portable, trailer-mounted, motorized tower and a 2 element Yagi, so he could work everybody they did, side by side, in real time. Not a day later, an hour later, or even a minute later; so there were no vagaries of propagation to contend with.
The quad owners were astonished. It's quite an article.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on September 23, 2009
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WB2WIK: Great point about N6NB's real-world tests.(His previous call was K6YNB).
I still remember his "Cabover Kilowatt" QST article of 1971, describing what was then probably the ultimate portable amateur HF/6 meter station: a pickup truck with cabover camper equipped with generator, ham rigs, crank up tower, inverted V for 80 and 40, and a 2 element quad for 20 thru 6. The quad was chosen for mechanical reasons, not electrical ones. It had to be lightweight, easy and quick to put up and take down, and turned with a light-duty rotator.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by G3LBS on September 23, 2009
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I too had insect infested Yagi traps - on a Moseley Classic CL-33 at 90 ft in England. They love the heat in the lossy traps, also in baluns and occasionally coax.
No more of these for me - only quads and ladder line and true differential tuners.
W2/G3LBS
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K1NVY on September 27, 2009
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A number of years ago, I became intrigued with the Quad versus Yagi debate and did the same test and comparison. My Yagi is a 20M 3 element monobander (24 foot boom) up 60 feet and the Quad is a homebrewed (HY-Quad hardware) 8 foot boom, three 1/4 wave matching transformers (75 ohm coax), three feed lines, up 55 feet, 2 elements each on 20, 15 and 10 meters, diamond configuration, fed at lower corners.
This comparison is openly and clearly biased. Three elements versus two, 24 foot boom versus 8 foot. More elements and bigger boom is more gain versus 2 elements on a shorter boom. That fact is not open to debate or discussion, it's the way it is.
My 20 meter results are as expected: The Yagi gets me two S-units MORE on both receive and transmit. Occasionally, I get reports from DX stations that both antennas are the same and likewise on receive, I sometimes hear equally well. The vast majority of reports (receive and transmit) gives the 3 element Yagi the clear edge over the 2 element Quad. The Quad is a noiser antenna than the Yagi probably because I'm feeding at the lower corner (vertically polarized).
I find the 2 element Quad on 20 meters acts more like a single rotatable loop. The front-to-back ratio is practically one-to-one. With a longer boom, I would expect higher gain, better front-to-back ratio and narrower beamwidth.
On 10 and 15 meters, I have a completely different result. On both bands, the 8 foot boom means more gain than on 20 meters. The antenna is very directional and works well but I have no other antenna to compare with the Quad on those bands.
BOTTOM LINE: My 2 element Quad on 20 meters does not in any way out perform my 3 element Yagi, not even close. It seems reasonable that the 2 element Quad compares to a 2 element Yagi with same boom length.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KC6O on September 30, 2009
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Yeah, I grew up hearing the complete LIE that Quads open and close the band... what a bunch of BS.
I still remember the time, after having bought into the lie to the degree of actually building a 3-el Quad for 10m, that I went up against another local operator with his 5-el Yagi and 2x the power I had.
Poor Aussie sap must have also bought into the same lie because my local competition with 5 elements at ~60' (against my 3 elements of wire junk at 40') threw down an S-7 to S-9 where I only gave up a 20-over WHILE he was talking, and afterwords.
Yep, it's all BS alright, Quads aren't any better, and I hope many buy into that opinion with it's so-called proof, and I'll just keep breaking pile-ups which they can't.
Oh, and always count on near-field measurements, always...
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N9TGR on October 1, 2009
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Frank.
Enjoyed reading your article on your quest for a new antenna.I had a 4 el quad till about two years ago when a bad storm came in and took the tower and antenna,last year I replaced the tower and decided to go with a low profile antenna.I chose the four element steppir which covers 6-40mtrs including all the the extras which came to about $3500 or so.
The antenna works good and I consistently get reports of loudest on the band etc.What I do recall about the quad is it seemed to be less prone to atmospheric noise and heard the weaker ones before the yagi guys did.I did many tests versus a TH11 at the same height and consistently came out 2-3 S units ahead on the quad.
A quad does need seperate feedlines and some form of matching be it 1/4 wave lines or gamma matches which makes it look a little cumbersome sitting at 70ft or so.I spent almost a year tuning and tweaking,adjusting reflectors,directors and trying different feeding arrangements.
Bottom line..the quad will stay up under heavy icing if its constructed correctly,it does require periodic maintenance,its three dimensional and looks a little ugly (quote from a yagi user),you do need a remote switch box on the tower,its not a plug n play antenna and some form of matching and adjusting is required.
If I had to do it all again I would not hesitate to go back to the quad for about half the price of the steppir.Good choice and dont heed the naysayers,dont get roped into the quad vs yagi debate,you know the better antenna,see you in the pile ups.
Andy N9TGR-EI8IM
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K4RVN on October 4, 2009
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Frank,
I am an old dude of 76, over 50 years as a ham.
I had a 3 element, 5 band Cubex for 18 years until last year.
I now have a 2 element home brew 5 band quad. I feed mine similar to yours with one feed line down to the shack from a remote antenna switch with 5 individual feeds.
I have had 3 yagis. My multi band yagis had traps except maybe on one band with the 4 element Hy Gain.
I never experienced the satisfaction with the yagis that I have had with the quads. I am now on my third quad.
Two books that back up your statements are the Radio Handbook Twenty Third Edition, and also All About Cubical Quads by William Orr. Now old Bill is one smart guy who wrote about yagis and quads. At 40 ft side by side a quad is going to outperform a yagi with the same number of elements according to the two sources I mentioned. That is to say a two element quad is like a three element yagi, etc.Your three element quad is going to perform about like a 4 element yagi. Enjoy your quad, I have also found quads quieter and got better reports with quads
at lower heights. I have never owned a tower over 50 ft so can't say beyond that height.I would bet your
Cubex with its 3 inch boom will hang in there just fine with ice and snow If you supported the feed lines where they connect to the wires. I always add nylon cord to support the weight from the boom. I hope to hear your loud signal one day.
Enjoy and 73s.
Frank
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K4RVN on October 4, 2009
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Forgot to mention about lower angle of radiation.
Bill Orr says in his book that generally speaking, the main lobe of a dipole, parasitic array, and quad antenna are identical for all heights above one half wavelength. This belies the claim that the quad has a lower angle of radiation. However a quad can be used
and give satisfactory performance at a height of
one quarter wave length where the dipole is almost useless.
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by KI0Z on October 4, 2009
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Assuming that the coax to both antennas is in good condition (6 years for RG-8 / 25 for RG-213 before slow deteration),this is what I have seen in my back yard over the past 37 years. The quad had very good front to side but lacked front to back on California where you need it but had excellent F/B on VK / ZL etc. was weak in ice and wind conditions. It was ok. I had a Th-7 which struggled to work DX at 50 ft but had good f/b and f/s.it wanted to be at 70 ft for some reason. when switching to the TH-11 it didn't matter if it was at 40 ft or 70 ft it had great f/b,f/s and worked dx (WAZ,DXCC with 5 watts ) It really works !! it has more gain on 20 meters than the 204 BA 4 element Yagi (gov specks, no ground gain)Hygain info. I am sure that there are better antennas but eliminating the traps in the reflector and driven elements and switching to a log cell for the driven elements was a huge step forward and swr is very low across the bands.I have worked with aircraft antennas of all types for 39 years and was lucky to use an HP-8753E network analyzer for part of that time, which I miss using and use the MFJ-859-B at home as we also had one at work for quick tests and it held it's own with the HP.If you need info go to W8JI.com. as He knows antennas. 73 & GL .. Dave KI0Z..
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K2XT on October 5, 2009
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W8JI's explanation of the derivation of the quad inspired me to model all of them using 4NEC2. I started with a dipole and single quad loop in free space on 14 MHz as Tom suggested. Then looked at them over real earth, since he said the small gain of the loop would diminish as the antennas were placed over earth. Then I added a reflector to the loop to make it a quad. Heights were 70 ft and 40 ft. Then I took the dimensions of a 3 element SteppIR to compare (since I own one) and scaled it to 14 MHz by changing the element lengths looking at f/b ratio. I used 8 ft as the boom length of the quad.
Then I investigated, if I had two 2 element beams stacked above each other to simulate a quad before the elements were bent down, how much degradation occurs when the elements were bent into the quad shape. Finally just for kicks I took those same 2 element yagis and spaced them optimally to see what could be accomplished.
So the questions to be answered with this analysis are:
Is the quad vs a 3 element yagi superior in any way?
Is the quad a band opener/band closer?
Is the quad more tolerant of being mounted close to earth?
I have all the data but busy the balance of the day so I will format and present my results this evening on this forum.
QRX.
Rick K2XT
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W5AO on October 5, 2009
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While we are waiting for Rick's analysis, I would like to share some other information to complete this thread.
1. The 2.2 db gain of a loop over a dipole is valid. The supposed 440 mhz feedline sampling error was, in fact, a hoax perpetrated by Yagi and Uda following a dinner disagreement over spousal remarks among the engineers at the IEEE awards ceremony in Australia. This was all well publicized at the time, I am surprised Tom failed to mention this.
2. The HCJS engineers, while solving the corona problem, actually discovered a side-benefit. It seems the corona energy was recirculating (unable to discharge) and sort of super-charging the loops, allowing RF to "launch". This added approximately 12 db to the theoretical 2.2 db and at the same time explaining the Quad's performance at low heights.
3. It was also shown that the recirculating currents, 180 degrees out of phase with the transmitted and received signals on the same loop, had the effect of anti-magnetism of spurious noise, explaining the Quad's quieter receive abilities.
All of this is quite in line with N2QQF's observations.
73 from Bobcat Hill
W5AO
Bill
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K2XT on October 6, 2009
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Following is my analysis as I promised yesterday. Sorry for the delay.
I was curious as to the claims made on this forum about the quad, and decided to see what the modeling program 4NEC2 could tell me about quads and yagis. Tom, W8JI, said a single loop would show slight gain over a dipole, this gain would diminish as the antennas were placed over real ground, and that essentially the quad is just a pair of yagis stacked, but with their ends bent down so they touched. If he was right, the models should show this. The above is my understanding, I hope I got it right. In addition I wanted to compare the quad to yagis at the same height and see if some of the other claims, such as "The quad is a band opener" could be substantiated with model results.
My modeling skills are probably what you would call moderate. I've modeled about 40 different antennas so far. I build all my models with variables so I can easily change any parameter such as height, length of elements, spacing, by simply changing one number. This makes it very easy for me to see the effect of going from 70 feet to for 40 for instance. Ground was modeled as "average". 20 meters was the band. All driven elements were adjusted to give zero reactance at 14 MHz. Reflectors were adjusted to give best f/b ratio. Director in the case of the 3 element yagi was adjusted also for best f/b.
Here's a description of each antenna modeled:
- half wave dipole in free space, and at 70 ft and 40 ft
- single full wave loop fed at the bottom in free space, 70 ft and 40 ft
- 2 element quad with boom length of 3.06 m (10 ft)
= single 2 element yagi with boom length of 3.06 m (10 ft)
- two 2 ele yagis stacked, spaced 18 ft (same as the upper and lower elements of a quad)
- 3 element yagi. Essentially a SteppIR since I own one. 16 foot boom. I fixed the element spacing, and varied the element lengths for max f/b. As this occurs, there is no meaningful change in gain. I am convinced that tuning a yagi or quad for max gain would be extremely difficult as the change is so slight compared to the huge changes in f/b that occur simultaneously.
The program gives a graphical output of the horizontal (azimuth) pattern, and the vertical pattern with a cursor displaying actual gain and f/b data so it is not necessary to interpolate. In the vertical pattern over real ground at 70 foot height there are three lobes, at 15, 45 and 90 degrees above the ground. The gain figures quoted are at the lowest angle. At 40 ft height the vertical lobe is much broader and centered on 25 degrees above the horizon with a smaller lobe at 90 degrees. The horizontal pattern gives us 3 db beamwidth and f/b ratio. The vertical pattern gives us gain as mentioned above. OK? here we go.
Dipole in free space. Gain 2.14 dbi
Single loop in free space. Gain 3.26 dbi
A gain of 1.2 db in favor of the loop. This is supposed to diminish over real ground.
Dipole at 70 feet. Gain =7.73 dbi. Max gain at 15 degrees above the horizon.
(This gain figure is much higher than free space due to the reflection from the earth).
Single loop at 70 feet. Gain = 8.55. max gain at 15 degrees.
A difference of 0.82 db. Tom is right.
How about at 40 feet? Is the gain advantage of the loop less?
Dipole at 40 feet. Gain = 7.83 dbi. Max gain at 25 degrees above the horizon.
Single loop at 40 feet. Gain = 8.16 dbi. max gain at 25 degrees.
A difference of 0.33 db. The influence of ground, as Tom says, DOES make the difference less. And the closer to ground the more the effect.
Now look at the 2 ele quad and the 3 ele yagi at 70 then 40 feet:
Quad at 70 feet. Gain = 12.34 at 15 degrees above horizon, beamwidth 70 degrees, f/b = 25.6 db
3 ele yagi at 70 ft. Gain = 12.82 at 15 degrees above horizon, beamwidth 70 degrees, f/b = 25.0 db
Essentially identical.
Quad at 40 feet. Gain = 11.78 at 25 degrees above horizon, beamwidth 80 degrees, f/b = 22 db
3 ele yagi at 40 ft. Gain = 11.36 at 25 degrees above horizon, beamwidth 70 degrees, f/b = 21.1 db
At 40 feet gain at the lower angles drops, the pattern broadens a little, f/b degrades slightly. But the gain advantage of the quad is 0.42 db.
Next, if we had two real yagis of 2 elements, placed at the same heights as the quad upper and lower wires what would the performance be? Compare this data at 70 feet to that of the quad at 70 feet above. This shows us how much of an effect there is by "bending the elements" of a yagi to form a quad.
Two 2 ele yagis at 70 feet. Gain 14.0 db (!!) at 15 degrees elevation, and f/b = 23.5 db.
This post is getting long. I will make another one soon to discuss the "The quad is a band opener and closer" claim, where I will look at the very low angle gain in the range of 5-10 degrees of the two antennas. If putting a signal down at low angles is what it takes to open a band the quad should excel here, right?
If anyone uses 4NEC2 and would like copies of my model files I would be happy to send them to you so you can modify them for your own analysis.
Rick K2XT
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K4RVN on October 7, 2009
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AB7E and W8JI
I too failed to comprehend your description of a quad.
Actually both descriptions are making something complicated out of something simple, and appear incorrect based on the amateur who invented the quad.
A quad is simply a folded dipole pulled open if we borrow the description of W9LZX Clarence C. Moore who got a patent on the cubical quad. We all can learn a little from this article, so keep it simple and civil.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K4RVN on October 7, 2009
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A three element yagi is going to have about a half
decibel more gain than a two element quad. Of course the chart I have requires one to interpolate so I will be anxious to see what you come up with on your model. What would be interesting is to have a model done of a three element yagi and a three element quad.
The quad would beat the yagi by about a decibel when
compared to a dipole if my chart by Bill Orr W6SAI and Stuart Cowan W2LX is correct. Maximum gain on a quad is reported to be .15 wavelength, but I doubt if the 10 ft boom you modeled on the quad would make any difference in the results. Thanks for taking the time to do a model for the subject article. I found it interesting so far.
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by K2XT on October 9, 2009
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K4RVN says, "A three element yagi is going to have about a half
decibel more gain than a two element quad."
Agree. My data above supports that statement.
"What would be interesting is to have a model done of a three element yagi and a three element quad."
I can do it easily.
" Maximum gain on a quad is reported to be .15 wavelength, "
I can also do that very easily.
K4RVN - if you would email me at k2xt@arrl.net I can send you more detailed data.
Rick K2XT
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My Quest for a New Antenna
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by W5RPC on October 9, 2009
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The best antenna I have ever built is the double bazoka. I wish I had known how to build this 25 years ago. On 80 meters I get a 15 to 20 db gain over the long wire. It also reduces some of the static background noise. I have my long wire 5 ft above the double bazoka and when switching back and forth recieve on a 5-9 signal goes to 5-9 plus 20 recieve the same reports on signals sent. Its hard to believe a antenna the same length as a diapole gives such performance. But check with anyone using one and they will all say the same thing if they built it correctly. Also SWR is 1.2 to 1 across General SSB if centered for 3.9 mhz. I also built one with 80m,40m,20m all connected to center of one and used shrinkwrap to hold together. Each band will resonate on proper antenna... Don W5RPC
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2EY on October 9, 2009
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W5RPC:
How are you connecting the long-wire to your rig?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on October 11, 2009
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K2XT,
Very interesting!
Weather the modeling shows the quad to be a band opener or not I think that experience still in real world should be the deciding factor. All though even the modeling shows .42 db gain over a yagi at lower heights .42 db is .42 db over the yagi. At lower heights the yagi will probably continue to depreciate more than the quad unltimately giveing the QUAD the advantage.
If the Quad was installed at 30 ft. which is average heights for most compared to a yagi the Quad would be the way to go. This being said the claims of folks with actual experence and not modeling are true. At lower heights the Quad would perform better! When compared both to a given height of 70 feet there seems to be little difference in terms of gain other than band width and immunity to noise on a Quad.
Seems like to me after all this the claims of a Quad beating a yagi at lower heights after modeling and claims are coming to light. As for the argument of comparing at higher heights guess only actual owners who can compare both will be left to their discretion.
73!
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RE: My Quest for a New Antenna
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by N2RRA on October 11, 2009
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"What would be interesting is to have a model done of a three element yagi and a three element quad."
I can do it easily.
" Maximum gain on a quad is reported to be .15 wavelength, "
I can also do that very easily.
K4RVN - if you would email me at k2xt@arrl.net I can send you more detailed data."
If you guys wouldn't mind I would like to see that too. Email information is good on www.qrz.com
73!
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