The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
(KG4WXP)
on
September 20, 2009
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Recently I got on the local forum to ask a question regarding homeowners associations... mainly to find out what kind of new homes didn't have them, as my Fiancée and I have been home shopping, and fortunately (thank God!) she understands the importance of my hobby to me.
Here was what I initially posted, trying to explain my interest in participation in Skywarn Nets to the folks in laymen's terms:
"My fiancée and I will be home hunting in Louisville & the surrounding areas soon as she is the regional auditor for a major corporation and will be taking over operations in Louisville and the surrounding region.
Now my question is...
We are looking for a home that is not HOA regulated, (preferably a newer home with no CC&R garbage either), and has at least a few acres of secluded land.
Reason being, I am an amateur radio operator, licensed by the US Government, who does regular thunderstorm/bad weather monitoring and coordinates with the national weather service who thereby relays information to public safety and local media (TV & radio weather) venues.
Therefore, I am planning on installing an antenna support structure about 50-70 ft high (a tower) for my purposes.
We are also planning on making a pool with a grotto, and I know that nowadays, some HOA's even complain about things like that, much less the tower.
Any suggestions on nice areas with new homes with no CC&R/HOA Restrictions?
We're looking at houses in the 400,000-800,000 range."
Sounds like a reasonable enough question, right? And I even attempted to explain my reasons behind being so picky.
Well... here's a response that I got back from a self proclaimed broker/realtor/auctioneer:
"The central issue to the OP is the tower. Louisville and Oldham County P&Z will be very unlikely players. I won't rule them out, but in the NE corner of Jefferson County and the entire Oldham County area, I feel the buyer will only deal with frustration based on my experiences. I might be totally wrong, but..."
Of course, he was referring to PLANNING AND ZONING, not HOA's - which I made clear that I was talking about in this topic in my initial post...so I felt the need to explain PRB-1 to him, and explain WHY it existed, and I got these comments back:
"While I hear you, and I appreciate your service to our communities and neighborhoods, I must note just how many friends you are interested in making. Your words above almost sound like, "I don't give a damn what my neighbors like or feel, I'm gonna protect them."
Sadly, with all due respect, sir, we don't need your kind of protection in our neighborhoods. Three major storms this year alone have proven we can survive."
Someone else on the forum bit back at him, reminding him that the storms themselves show the need for more Ham Radio Ops, and his reply was this:
"Thanks for your reply. I know I was pretty straightforward, but I know my straightness would be mild to any reception he might get if he tried to put a tower in any Crestwood/Prospect/Pewee Valley subdivision. You may or may not remember the angst caused by the Pewee Valley cell tower. As important as those are... wow..."
Sheesh...
73
Kg4wxp
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by G3LBS on September 20, 2009
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Have you put a wanted ad in the Classified HAM Homes section in eham, or looked at those for sale? Can you re-locate to existing set-up ham home on top of hill but away from people? Be very firm with neighbors, but invite kids to see ham station.
Offer to dry neighbors' wive's undies on your wire antennas, or put up a dummy antenna to dry them on.
Buffalo Gil W2/G3LBS
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KB2DHG on September 20, 2009
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YEA, AMERICA, THE LAND OF THE FREE!...
It seems as though no matter what you want to do, there is a rule or law aganst it.
As a code enforcement officer, I understand the need for codes and to me the only rule I would mandate would be that a tower or any structure be installed safe and secure.
I understand that there are actually people out there hat can't see the beauty of a tower and antenna.
So really what is the difference with all these satalite TV dishes hanging and spewing all over the place?
The bottom line is no matter where you go today, being an Amateur Radio Operator, we will always have to fight for our right to have an antenna.
I live in a condo with restrictions. Lucky for me after several months of fighting I was able to get a Dipole up... Not my antenna of choice but I am on the air...
Good luck... Remember this is a free country!
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by N2EY on September 20, 2009
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I find it amazing that a self-proclaimed real-estate person would talk to you that way.
My first reaction is: Get another agent!
I don't know the Lousiville RE market at all, but it seems to me that in the current economic situation, particularly in Real Estate, that a buyer with unencumbered cash-in-hand would be treated as a VIP, and no stone left unturned to find him the right house.
A couple of minor points for the next agent:
1) Do not use the words "hobby" or "tower" - ever. Just say you are an amateur radio operator, and that you intended to put up an antenna system. "Hobby" trivializes what you do; "tower" reminds people of broadcast and cell structures hundreds of feet tall.
2) Don't mention SKYWARN or other nets/systems. They mean nothing to non-hams until the weather turns bad (see note below).
3) Get pictures of amateurs' homes with antenna systems, and show them to the agent. Words don't convey the meaning.
4) Insist that you be shown the complete CC&Rs for any property of interest BEFORE you look at it. Get a good RE lawyer.
5) Make the point that it's not just about antennas, because it's not. Excessive restrictions can and will cause problems in other ways. Your spouse gets into gardening? Sorry, you can't put in a new garden, or a greenhouse, shed or gazebo without lots of permissions from all sorts of people. You plan to get an RV, boat, travel trailer? Sorry, you can't park it on your property unless you build a garage for it - and try getting permission to do THAT! Solar panels? Fencing? A deck or patio? A basketball hoop for the kids, a tennis court, a pool? A *clothesline* so you don't have to run the dryer on a sunny day? Sorry, CC&Rs don't allow.
That doesn't mean you only look at properties that have no CC&Rs, it means you want to see the CC&Rs FIRST and decide.
Note: One of the most frustrating irrationalities of the modern American mindset is the common disconnect between technological desires and the required infrastructure to provide it.
Too many Americans want cell phones that work everywhere, but don't want cell towers anywhere. They want cheap and dependable electricity, but don't want power lines, substations, windmills, hydroelectric dams or power stations anywhere. They want good fast roads but don't want to pay fuel taxes. Yes, it's irrational, but that's what you're up against.
Good luck!
73 de Jim, N2EY
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by N4CQR on September 20, 2009
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There is a small horse farm for sale in Lexington right now that would fit you to tee! Based on the price range mentioned, I figure you all should be knocking down between 1.6 and 3.2 million annually. This could be you dream house and only a short drive from Lexington Louisville.
Best of luck!
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by KA5ROW on September 20, 2009
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I don't under stand the problem. Just find a house in a non restricted area. How difficult can that be. Or build a few miles out of town. At $400 to $800 k buy a nice house with 20 aces and do what you want.
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by N4RSS on September 20, 2009
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He doesn't need $1.6 million/yr to afford a $400K house, only a tenth of that....
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by VE3LNY on September 20, 2009
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Don't rely on a real estate agent.
The agent just wants to sell a property. He/she couldn't care less about your problems. Do not believe what they tell you, check it out for yourself, before laying your hard earned money down.
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N8CMQ on September 20, 2009
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I was just thinking of this topic for my blog, but here it is, all ready for a comment!
I live in Michigan, at the edge of my county out in the country. I have a postage stamp farm, 10.1 acres. Surrounding me is a site condo on two sides, and farm land on the opposite side of the site condos.
Now I can go out in my back field, hunt and farm and carry on, while my site condo neighbors, sitting on 2.5 acres, can not! They are not even allowed to hunt!
Their agreements they abide by are the very reason I moved where I have, to get away from people and their mindset that they can control everything around them, including their neighbors!
So it is possible to get away from the city people, they come out to you though. Fortunately, they also have a clause that keeps them from complaining about my life style!
So I have my animals, vehicles and antennas all in plane view, while they can't...
What makes me laugh, I paid less for my farm, than they did for their house, rules, and lot!
Think BEFORE you spend big bucks on property, and if you don't like the realtor you are dealing with, get another! Don't get impatient, there is still good land to be had. And if it HAS to be in the city, Keep looking there too, as there is still free zones there too!
Just keep looking till you find what you want and need!
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by N2EY on September 20, 2009
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KA5ROW: "Just find a house in a non restricted area. How difficult can that be."
Depends on where you are.
KA%ROW: "Or build a few miles out of town."
In some places you have to be a lot more than a few miles out of town. Suburban sprawl keeps growing to the point that the sprawl from one city starts meeting that from an adjacent city.
"At $400 to $800 k buy a nice house with 20 aces and do what you want."
The price of land varies widely across the USA. Check realtor.com and see what I mean.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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by WN9HJW on September 20, 2009
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Isn't Skywarn generally on 2m or 70cm? Is a 70 foot tower necessary for 2m operation in that area? If that's the case, then maybe you'd be better off moving somewhere closer to a repeater.
And your Skywarn activity is from the safety of your shack in your house? I would think it'd make more sense to go mobile and report the tornados before they get to your back yard.
Or, is it that the 70 foot tower is really for a tribander so you can work DX and contests, not actually for Skywarn nets?
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by N9XCR on September 20, 2009
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My wife and I purchased our first home in 2005 using the services of a real estate agent who is also an Extra. :)
Find out if any of your local real estate agents are also hams.
Chris
N9XCR
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by WB4M on September 20, 2009
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I feel your pain. For about 15% of what you require, I found a nice home on 3.5 acres just outside the city limits. No close neighbors, no worries, no TVI, etc. Happy hunting!
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by KI4SDY on September 20, 2009
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If you can afford a home in the 400,000 to 800,000 range, you are wealthy and can afford any type of home you want, in this economic climate. I don't know why you are having a problem.
First, I would get prequalified for the $800,000 home and then I would contact several real estate agents by phone and tell them what you have and what you want. Tell them the first one to come up with your dream home wins. They will fall all over themselves trying to find it for you. Those that don't aren't worth your time anyway.
You will need a lot of acreage and tree cover to prevent future problems. Even though your tower is legal now, it may become an issue later. If they can't see it, they don't complain.
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by AI2IA on September 20, 2009
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In one sense, be glad that you encountered this fellow. By saying what he did, he alerted you to an attitude in that area that could very well be prevalent. Now you know to look at the advice of local fellow hams (Why not visit the local ham clubs or at least talk to local hams?) on eHam.net and else where.
I often wear shirts that have ham slogans or sayings on them as I move about in supermarkets and travel locally. I am amazed at the ignorance that I see is revealed when people ask me innocent questions, often confusing or mixing CB with amateur radio. Many times they ask, "Is amateur radio still around?" They often comment that the internet will probably do away with ham radio in a few years. A few, mostly women have come out with the unsolicited comment that ham antennas are ugly, and "I wouldn't want one next door to me." Some say, "Your wife lets you do that?" Ham shirts are a conversation starter, but you may be surprised how much ignorance is out there.
Small wonder that HOAs and Anti-Antenna mindsets abound!
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by AI8P on September 20, 2009
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NN4RH,
I don't know how much Emergency Communication experience you have, but I can tell you that many of the best EmComm ops are major HF contesters. The same skills honed in the contests are the skills needed in a crisis. So a tower with a tri-bander for working DX can be a vital ingredient to providing effective 2M communications in a tactical local net during an emergency. Maybe you're not a contester or a DXer, but that doesn't mean that you can't understand that it can have important benefits.
Your mileage may vary
de Dennis AI8P
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by KF4HR on September 20, 2009
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First, let me commend you on doing your homework before buying your home. Obviously there are certain circumstances where a ham needs to purposely move into a HOA restricted residence, but on the flip side, I'd be willing to bet there are numerous cases where if the ham would have done their research, they may have been about locate a few miles away into a non-restrictive environment.
My suggestion is, let your realitor do the leg work to find your non-HOA restricted property.
Normally residences in cities, towns, and gated or retirement communities are restriction magnets, especially if the lots are small, (but not always). Also HOA's sometimes apply to large acreage lots of 5, 10 or more acres. So don't assume just because the lot is large, there are no restrictions! More than likely you'll find yourself looking well outside a city, and lot sizes of 1 or more.
There can be a HOA and/or Restrictive Covenant documentation (in some cases, two totally separate documents) covering the same property, so to be sure to search for a property that is free of both.
Also keep in mind that even though you may find a property without a HOA, you may have to still deal with county rules and regs; such as building permits. Although that varies county by county. In my particular county I wasn't required to obtain a building permit for my towers (for property sizes above 1 acre), as long as my tower was positioned to where, should it fall, the entire structure would not fall outside my property lines.
Good luck with your search.
KF4HR
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by WY3X on September 20, 2009
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My wife and I looked around and found homes we liked without regard to being in a development. After making a list of those homes, we went to a real estate agent, and told him we were interested in "those" homes. After we found one that was affordable and met my wife's requirements of being "near town", we made a cash offer, which was contingent on there being no HOA, POA, deed restrictions, covenants, etc. that would prohibit my installing up to a 100 foot tall tower. The agent looked at me funny, and I told him, "Yep, I'm as serious as can be! If I can't install a tower, you've got no offer to buy!" And I made the last owner sign off on a clause included in the sales contract acknowledging that I could sue him if it turned out later that my tower installation was shot down for any reason caused by HOA/POA/deed covenant or restriction. The real estate agent balked until we got up to walk out of his office. He figured out just how serious I was that if he didn't get the clause signed, we weren't going to buy. He got on the phone, took about 48 hours to research the issue, and called us back WITH the signed contract in hand. End of discussion. We moved in, and the tower went up around 8 months later.
73, -KR4WM
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by KJ6AMF on September 20, 2009
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You are certainly going to have a problem finding a NEW home without restrictive CC&Rs. They are become a defacto standard on all new developments. You have to expand your search to older homes which presents several benefits:
1) Older homes are less likely to have CC&Rs.
2) Residents are older so you're are more likely to find fellow hams that welcome antennas in the neighborhood.
3) Trees are bigger giving you more antenna options (i.e. you can hand dipoles or loops instead of relying on a tower).
4) Big trees make stealth operations easier if you have to go that route.
I'd would suggest looking up addresses of local hams in ULS or QRZ then scouting out their neighborhoods to see if it's a place you'd like to live and if nice homes are available. You might find a nice home in a neighborhood with several towers already there. You might even find a home with a tower already there (not something the MLS is going to advertise since towers are not a selling point).
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by N2EY on September 20, 2009
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"For about 15% of what you require, I found a nice home on 3.5 acres just outside the city limits."
Location, location, location.
In some places, $250,000 will buy you an unrestricted mansion on a multi-acre lot in perfect condition.
In other places, $250,000 will buy you an old fixer-upper on a tiny lot.
There's also timing. Prices have imploded in some areas, not so much in others. What you paid 5, 10 or 20 years ago is not a guide to today's prices.
Pick a zip code and search realtor.com and see how different things can be.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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by WB2WIK on September 20, 2009
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One way to get what you want is to buy the home of a fellow ham who is already set up and was about to sell, anyway.
This isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. I've sold two homes to hams (when I was going to move, anyway) and they both got homes complete with towers, antennas, rotators, coax, 240V wiring in the shack, installed operating benches in a dedicated spare room (ham shack), etc. Of course that brings a premium price, because besides the house, you're selling the next guy all that stuff.
But you might look into it.
BTW, despite your desire for a newer home, in many places it is not possible to find a "newer" home without CC&Rs; in those same areas, often "older" homes don't have any restrictions at all and are much more ham-friendly neighborhoods.
I've moved a lot of times and one of the first things I do is look up hams in the target area and contact them to see if any are about to sell, or what suggestions they may have. It worked out perfectly when I moved to CA years ago, as one of the first hams contacted was not only an active DXer with towers, but also an attorney who knew the local landscape with regard to restrictions much better than average folks would. He told me, "In this area, almost all new construction after 1982 has deed restrictions. Buy a home built prior to 1982 and you won't have any." So, that's exactly what we did!
Good luck
73
Steve WB2WIK/6
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by WA1RNE on September 20, 2009
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by AI8P on September 20, 2009
NN4RH,
I don't know how much Emergency Communication experience you have, but I can tell you that many of the best EmComm ops are major HF contesters. The same skills honed in the contests are the skills needed in a crisis. So a tower with a tri-bander for working DX can be a vital ingredient to providing effective 2M communications in a tactical local net during an emergency. Maybe you're not a contester or a DXer, but that doesn't mean that you can't understand that it can have important benefits."
>>> Funny, NN4RH beat me to it. I have over 35 years of EmComm experience and can say your comments have that familiar "ARRL-esque" advertising ring to them.
Operating in so called "tactical local nets" on 2 meters during and emergency is both a pure and utter figment and an EXCUSE for wanting a tower for contesting purposes or general amateur use.
Nobody "needs" a 70' tower at their residence to participate in local emergency communications, especially if your sole purpose is to check into a Skywarn net. If a hand-held radio doesn't make the repeater, a small collinear vertical or a small yagi attached to the side of a house will.
More importantly, if hams want to make an impact, they should contact their local emergency management officials and offer their assistance in their communities emergency operations.
That aside, it's been proven time and time again on this forum that 70' towers in $500K-$1M residential developments are perceived as "eyesores" and no degree of convincing about the benefits of weather spotting for Skywarn is going to change people's minds.
Why? Simple: because it's not a service people can't afford to be without.
As several others have said, if you want to work DX and pursue this hobby unchallenged by CC&R's, buy some land and count on a longer commute. If your wife is good with that, problem solved.
...WA1RNE
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by WA4SCA on September 20, 2009
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If you are looking at an area loaded with HOAs, check with your local radio club. Ask around where the people who do operate with more than a mag mount or rubber ducky live. Usually, someone in the club will be the unofficial chamber of commerce. With this you can get a good picture of what is available in practice. I did this when I retired, and was able to rule out one AZ city as too hostile to my hobby to bother with.
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by WN3R on September 20, 2009
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Negotiation 101 suggests that you start out by asking for more than you want or need. Tell 'em you want 4 towers at 198' each and plan to put a total of 25 yagi's on them with wires strung between them. They will think they've won when they get you to accept a compromise of two 100 footers.
Of course, that didn't work for me. I had to buy 10 acres 40 miles out of town to stay on the air. Now if only I could get my XYL to move to the country, I could be on the air everyday.
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by N6RK on September 20, 2009
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> Nobody "needs" a 70' tower at their residence
> to participate in local emergency
> communications, especially if your sole
> purpose is to check into a Skywarn net.
> If a hand-held radio doesn't make the
First of all, I remember hearing large
amounts of traffic on HF after earthquakes.
Secondly, since ham radio is voluntary,
there needs to be some incentive for people
to expend the time, money and effort involved.
If ham radio consisted entirely of working
local repeaters, few would get involved, and
those who did would probably be appliance
operators. Who would build and maintain the
repeaters?
> That aside, it's been proven time and time
> again on this forum that 70' towers in
> $500K-$1M residential developments are
> perceived as "eyesores" and no
> ...WA1RNE
Careful about generalizations.
There are lots of legal towers in Cupertino, CA
where starter houses are $1M and $2M+ houses
are commonplace. Some neighborhoods go back to
1917 with no CC&R's, but the original houses have
all been replaced. Still no CC&R's. Zoning
specifically allows towers.
Rick N6RK
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by W0UHU on September 20, 2009
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Another possibility is a "scrape" in an older section of town where there are no restrictions. That way you get a new house, an established neighborhood, no covenants, and a coffee shop within walking distance...
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by KC7NOA on September 20, 2009
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WA1RNE ... I giggled too ...
Who needs a tall tower with a good 10 element beam for 2M when the repeaters have lost there power for 100 Sq. miles!!!
Being short minded is so easy.
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by KC0NIB on September 20, 2009
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What you are witnessing is more evidence of division in this country. Not just politically, but ethically and morally. There is a large mindset going on that wants to rely on the government for *everything* in life. These folks want a form of communism and socialism in this country. Mostly; in my opinion, because they can't seem to support themselves.
Then; you have the complete flip of this. You have the conservatives that stake their whole being into the foundational principles that this country was formed on; and that nothing else matters.
This is being seen in the union-ist; protection-ist mentality going on that even rears its head in these "protected" neighborhoods.
If I were you; I would just consider looking for a "hobby farm" or something similar on the outskirts of the area where you wish to live. Generally undeveloped land is bountiful there and when the city eventually gets up to it, your rights as a landowner are grandfathered and any laws that they try to enact would legally be challenging in court because; you were there first!!
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by K0IC on September 20, 2009
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So far no one has mentioned the advantages of in having a low horizontal antenna that can be mounted on a wood fence about six feet above the ground. High enough not to bother humankind or animals. I have a ten foot high horizontal 80-foot random wire and I work stations out to around 300 miles on 75 meters in fine shape. Vertical antennas disguised as flag poles could be added to the mix. There are insurance ramifications when one's tower can fall on someone else's property and cause damage anyway. I had a Ringo Ranger II antenna by my house at one time and I worked two meter repeaters up to 50 miles away with no problem up a few feet off the ground. As long we meet FCC RFI standards, what is the problem? When the bands are open QRP will do the job.
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by WB4TJH on September 20, 2009
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If you can afford $800,000 worth of real estate, then forget worrying about the stupid HOAs and their assinine rules, go out in the country away from town, buy some land in a rural area, and build a house and put up what you want. Why would you even consider such a situation in the first place? Go where they aren't. That's simple, enough, isn't it?
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by AA8X on September 20, 2009
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When I moved into our home in 1987, and checking with our city zoning,there were no restrictions on installing amateur radio towers. After moving in I found out about HOA and although there was no restriction on towers and antennas, when they took one look at my tower lying in the backyard they all got together to restrict any type of tower. I have not spoken to my neighbors in 22 years. Make sure you know what you are buying and what kind of neighbors you will have in the subdivision you are moving to.
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by N4UE on September 20, 2009
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Hi, this is a story that is repeated WAY too often today in our 'free country'. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this country, and have shed my blood for it, as a Viet Nam Vet.
As some readers may remember, I lost my DREAM house/shop/1000 sq foot 'shack',due to antennas. Not only did it cost me my marriage, also my 401K and my life's savings.
WHY you ask? Because I erected 2 80' towers in a NON restricted, NON Homeowner area. NO regulations, period. I did my homework. I had a written permit, etc. from the local building inspector. This was in a neighborhood of 5 acre MINIMUM lots.
However, there were several 'old farts' with a lot of $ and nothing else to do. They formed a 'committe' and sued us. There is also a testicle-less ham in this neighborhood with a MUCH larger antenna than I had. Yes, he sided with the angry neighbors because he "didn't want trouble"!! Imagine this from a retired FBI Agent!!! What a puke! We had death threats and were driven off the road. The Sheriff gave me the OK to 'defend' my family with lethel force, if necessary. Yes, I have the CCW permits, but thank God, it never came to that!
My 'EX' asked me, "PLEASE, Ron, just take the towers down". Needless to say, I said no f'n way, it is a matter of principal, not towers!
Yes, I did use the ARRL's Legal Council and it helped, but I CANNOT state ENOUGH:
Today, anyone can sue anyone, for ANYTHING.
The neighbors knew they were going to lose in court(which they did), but they were able to pool their $ and I was alone, defending myself.
Why didn't I counter sue? Because my high $ lawyer said it could turn out to be a LONG, costly battle.
Besides, by this time, my ex, just wanted to go back to Ky where people were MORE rational. ha ha
She was actually afraid to leave the house, because these 'friendly' neighbors would drive by and curse her while she was outside tending her flower beds, which we planted.
Just do as much research and ask as many questions as possible.
Oh yeah, one neighbor sold me his 100' Rohn 25. When I put 80' of it on my property, he was outraged! HUH??
Yes, I was on top of a small hill, but we did plant a lot of trees, etc......
It's a big crap shoot. I will NEVER live in any kind of 'subdivision' again. Period. There is still PLENTY of land, nearby these gestapo camps, for a ham to enjoy: "Life, Liberty, and the persuit of happiness".
I bought 2 acres about 5 miles from "the QTH from hell". I now have 2 100' towers, a 35' one, lots of dipoles and enough tower sections for several more towers, if I need them.
ron
N4UE
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 20, 2009
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KC0NIB: "What you are witnessing is more evidence of division in this country. Not just politically, but ethically and morally. There is a large mindset going on that wants to rely on the government for *everything* in life. These folks want a form of communism and socialism in this country."
The problem is the facts don't support that.
CC&Rs, HOAs, POAs and such aren't the work of government. They're almost all *private* contracts between buyers and sellers, and between people in "planned" communities. Those communities are planned by the developers, who are about as capitalistic as you can get, not the government.
In fact, they're almost always an attempt to *reduce* the role of government by enacting rules that are more restrictive and more permanent than anything a government could enact.
Take the whole "no antennas" issue. Can you name ANY government agency that prohibits homeowners from putting up antennas of any kind on their own homes or property? Of course the antennas have to pass basic safety rules, but do you know of ANY government agency that says a homeowner can't put up antennas because they are antennas? I sure don't.
But there are plenty of places in the USA where PRIVATE CONTRACTS in the form of HOAs, CC&Rs, etc. restrict or prohibit antennas simply because they are antennas.
Socialism? Communism? Nope, just good old capitalism, afraid that if somebody puts up a G5RV the property values will plummet.
KC0NIB: "Mostly; in my opinion, because they can't seem to support themselves."
Think about why that is.
KC0NIB: "Then; you have the complete flip of this. You have the conservatives that stake their whole being into the foundational principles that this country was formed on; and that nothing else matters."
The problem is that they don't really say what those foundational principles really are, nor what changes should be made considering how different our country is today from 1776 or 1787. Nor do they explain exactly how those principles should be applied in the 21st century.
IIRC, there IS a place where the government supports HOAs. As I understand it, in Arizona, a new development is *required by law* to have an HOA. That doesn't mean they have to enact no-antennas restrictions, but the chances are pretty good.
Last time I looked, Arizona was a pretty conservative state. Gave us Senators Barry Goldwater (K7UGA) and John McCain, both presidential candidates.
Makes ya wonder...
KC0NIB: "This is being seen in the union-ist; protection-ist mentality going on that even rears its head in these "protected" neighborhoods."
At their peak, unions represented less than 1/3 of the USA's workforce. The current figure is about 1/8, if not less. The rise of the middle class closely follows the rise of organized labor - and so does the decline.
I'm old enough to remember a time when a single middle-class job paid enough in dollars and benefits to support a middle-class family pretty well. That means being able to afford a decent unrestricted home, a car, medical care, education, other necessities and some extras. A state-of-the-art ham rig was something only the rich ham could afford, but almost all hams could afford a house where they could have a decent antenna.
Think about how and why that changed.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by WA1RNE on September 20, 2009
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by N6RK on September 20, 2009 Mail this to a friend!
> Nobody "needs" a 70' tower at their residence
> to participate in local emergency
> communications, especially if your sole
> purpose is to check into a Skywarn net.
> If a hand-held radio doesn't make the
First of all, I remember hearing large
amounts of traffic on HF after earthquakes.
Question is, what KIND of traffic? Health and welfare is one thing but that isn't in the tactical realm.
Secondly, 99% of amateur operations in Santa Clara County - which serves Cupertino - occurs on VHF and UHF frequencies, with the exception of 1 tactical frequency on 28.40 Mc.
http://www.scc-ares-races.org/freqs/freq-05.htm
Forgive me but earthquakes tend to be a CA event and luckily don't occur often. Hurricanes on the other hand tend to be more frequent and occur on schedule - starting in June and running through November every year from the Gulf Coast to Maine. But even after Katrina, countless articles originating from the ARRL boasted about yeoman amateur efforts on HF that saved the day, including commercial airport communications.
However when these amateurs were asked to produce backing data including EOC logs, etc. there was NO response - ever.
Since ham radio is voluntary, there needs to be some incentive for people to expend the time, money and effort involved. If ham radio consisted entirely of working local repeaters, few would get involved, and
those who did would probably be appliance operators. Who would build and maintain the repeaters?
>>> What can I say, the population is growing and people have pushed developments beyond cities and metro areas. With that, most non-amateurs don't want what they perceive as hulking 70' towers looming over or next to their property. It's a free country and amateurs can spend all they want on repeater equipment. But just because a ham spends the money doesn't mean public service agencies must use them. I won't argue that incentive is important, but I can't stress this enough: If you want incentive, PARTNER with EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT OFFICIALS. Lately I've been seeing efforts by the ARRL to to join Interoperability councils in MA, which is a good thing. If amateurs are needed bad enough and a case can be made to fund a repeater, let the public fund it. Public Service officials are pushing interoperability between agencies - which was unheard of until the last 5-10 years.
> That aside, it's been proven time and time
> again on this forum that 70' towers in
> $500K-$1M residential developments are
> perceived as "eyesores" and no
> ...WA1RNE
Careful about generalizations.
There are lots of legal towers in Cupertino, CA
where starter houses are $1M and $2M+ houses
are commonplace. Some neighborhoods go back to
1917 with no CC&R's, but the original houses have
all been replaced. Still no CC&R's. Zoning
specifically allows towers.
>>> In comparison to most cities and towns, Cupertino is an aberration in the larger scheme of things. Most require a permit and have height and property line or easement requirements. Proof of that is the enormous quantity of articles just like this one.
....WA1RNE
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by AB7E on September 20, 2009
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I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from erecting a tower with a large wind-powered generator on it.
I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a telecom company from putting up a cell phone tower on adjacent land.
I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from building a large personal solar observatory next door.
I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from adding a second or third story to their house as an observation deck.
I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from being able to park a crane in his back yard.
I wonder how many hams are thankful for HOA restrictions on everything except antennas.
I wonder how many hams knowingly signed HOA agreements with the express intent to violate them later.
I wonder how KG4WXP thought he had written an "article" instead of a forum post.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 20, 2009
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AB7E writes: "I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from erecting a tower with a large wind-powered generator on it."
As long as it was properly engineered and wouldn't land on my property if it fell over, I'd have no problem.
AB7E: "I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a telecom company from putting up a cell phone tower on adjacent land."
Same as above.
AB7E: "I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from building a large personal solar observatory next door."
Again, same as above. Setbacks and codes deal with safety issues.
AB7E: "I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from adding a second or third story to their house as an observation deck."
All the houses around here have second floors and attics. Decks and porches are common. As long as the neighbors invite me over for their parties once in a while, I have no problem.
In fact, when I added a porch to this house a couple of years ago, several neighbors signed my request for a zoning variance and showed up at the hearing to testify in my favor if needed. Wasn't needed because nobody objected.
AB7E: "I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from being able to park a crane in his back yard."
Depends on the crane, the yard, and why he wanted to park it there.
AB7E: "I wonder how many hams are thankful for HOA restrictions on everything except antennas."
Not this one!
AB7E: "I wonder how many hams knowingly signed HOA agreements with the express intent to violate them later."
Not this one!
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KF7CG on September 20, 2009
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Here are some answers to post questions, just from my standpoint.
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from erecting a tower with a large wind-powered generator on it. "
Lived in such a neighborhood, but neighbors unit was having wind-wheel trouble and didn't run. That was a shame!
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a telecom company from putting up a cell phone tower on adjacent land."
That entirely depends on the care to be used when putting up and maintaining the tower.
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from building a large personal solar observatory next door. "
Not his Ham! I would volunteer to help.
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from adding a second or third story to their house as an observation deck. "
If they kept their noses out of my back yard, fine and dandy.
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from being able to park a crane in his back yard. "
That would depend entirely on how he would get it there. Those things can eat roads. Otherwise, no big deal my neighbor accross the street kept 2 semi-tractors in his driveway (when they weren't on the road).
"I wonder how many hams are thankful for HOA restrictions on everything except antennas. "
Very seldom for this boy.
"I wonder how many hams knowingly signed HOA agreements with the express intent to violate them later. "
That was suggested to me by a developer to get around his deed restrictions -- no external antenna including camaflaged antennas. He suggested a flag pole antenna. Wrote off all his developments and told him so.
I hope these answers settle a few questions about those who despise HOA rules.
K7CG
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by NY7Q on September 20, 2009
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HOA leaders are slimebags.
It's a government enity within local enities.
It is a way of creating jobs for slime bags.
The builders and city or county building departments are responsibile for this cancer within America.
We all, NATIONWIDE, need to stand up and refuse to pay our dues and snub our noses at their CC&Rs.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 20, 2009
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KR4WM: THAT'S the way it's done!
What the developers, realtors, agents, etc. need to see is buyers with money in their pockets and pens ready to sign walking away from restricted properties.
They will tell you "but nobody objected to the restrictions before" and some such. The answer is "I just did - and I bet others have, too"
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KE7FD on September 20, 2009
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Wow, what a response! This topic has hit yet another eHam nerve. There'll be no end to the varied opinions for a while on this thread.
It's just my opinion, as any of these are, but have you tried to look at the situation through the eyes of the RE agent? If the agent were to aggressively search for a house that matched your requirements, he would be taking the risk of garnering some negative feedback for selling what most or at least many people feel is an undesirable blight in their neighborhood. Think of it in the following manner. Suppose you find your dream home then put up all the antennas and towers to your hearts content. The pool goes in and a nice patio with all the furnishings that allows you to entertain all of your new eHam friends (which we'll all be expecting an invite to your place once you get settled in :-)) since we've given you such sage advice). So there we all are splashing in the pool, sipping lemonade and working DX all from the comfort of your QTH, when wafting in from the east comes a foul odor of which can only mean one thing: Pig farm! Someone has moved his swine just over the hill where the wind catches the stench of these curly tailed critters driving it right to your house, today, tomorrow and every day. "But I was here first!", you say. Well, without drawing it out any further, you see what I mean. Your antennas are viewed kind of like that. Don't get me wrong, I like a ham sandwich as much as the next guy but I just don't want the pig farm next to me. People might be OK with the idea of having someone out there who can pass emergency traffic along in case it's needed, they just don't want it in their back yard where it can be seen and where it causes their property values to go down (they think). A real estate agent may have a fragile reputation to protect and just one bad neighbor can do a lot of damage to that. (Sidebar: Can anyone tell me shy so many RE agents advertise their services by posting photos of themselves? What is this a beauty contest? Why not use a photo of a property? But I digress...)
Solution: Do your own homework on HOA and any other covenants in the areas that appeal to you. Then find a property that's far enough away so you really don't have neighbors right next to you who have a basis to complain in the first place (antennas or pig farm alike), but close enough to offer you the services you depend on. Over the years anyone who moves next to your antenna farm does so with full knowledge. It's not like you're hiding anything. This is what a member of my family did a very long time ago, but for the sake of their interest in horses. They bought land off the main road out in the county but not that far from town. Over the years, anyone who didn't like the smell of the ranch didn't move close by.
Good luck!
Glen - KE7FD
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by AB7E on September 20, 2009
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My questions weren't meant to reflect on whether anyone in particular would or wouldn't fight to prevent stuff like that showing up next door. They instead pondered how many hams would object to them ... I'll bet a significant percentage, although I don't expect many of them to admit to that in the context of my comment.
There are lots of individual pursuits out there that could be deemed obstructive or intrusive, and just because we're all partial toward ham radio as a hobby doesn't mean that our neighbors view a tower with a bunch of hardware on it any differently than they would, say, a large windmill or a 50 foot statue of someone's favorite sports star.
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by WA8FOZ on September 20, 2009
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Thoughts:
1. Loud congrats to N2EY for his thoughful posts, most especially the one that includes "CC&Rs, HOAs, POAs and such aren't the work of government." Know your enemy!
2. I agree with the people who suggest that the resources that would allow one to buy a home in this price range in Louisville can allow one to avoid problems - that's a VERY tidy sum in these parts.
3. Forget about a brand-new house, at least in any area that is not country. At least 20 to 30 years old is more reasonable - and may also bring you better build quality! You may be best advised to look for a country estate.
4. Get a good REAL ESTATE lawyer. Not a general practice lawyer who does real estate sometimes - your needs are MUCH too specialized. If necessary, get a referral from a lawyer in the area or from ARRL legal counsel. Expect to pay for what you get, even for the referral itself if you are new to the area. You get what you pay for.
5. Make it clear to any real estate agent the you have a non-negotiable rule: NO HOAs, NO CCRs. Don't be surprised that many agents will simply not get it - and don't be alarmed over this fact. There are MANY of these people out there looking for business. If your lawyer or a well-placed local ham can refer you to a good agent, great. If not, stick to your guns until you get a good one.
5. Get a good REAL ESTATE lawyer. It is still legally possible in some jurisdictions to buy a home without a lawyer, just as it is possible to jump out of a plane without a parachute. Both of these acts are exceedingly stupid, and many people would say that the misfortune they cause is deserved. So, once again, get a good REAL ESTATE lawyer.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by AB7E on September 20, 2009
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I suspect that almost everyone in a HOA development has at one time or another felt that the administration of the HOA requirements was overly heavy-handed, or staffed by nazis. I'm curious, though ... has anyone ever polled the folks living in their particular HOA development to find out what percentage of people would rather not have an HOA? If so, what was the result? I'm aware of a few isolated cases where residents have voted to rescind an HOA, but I think that is pretty rare. I would bet that the great majority prefer to have the HOA exist rather than not.
Another curiosity question ... do banks ever require the existence of an HOA to "protect the equity" behind a mortgage?
In case it isn't obvious, I don't live in a neighborhood with an HOA, never did, and never will.
73,
Dave AB7E
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by AB4D on September 21, 2009
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A lot of folks just don't understand how anti-antenna some communities have become. Case in point, about 5 years ago I moved from an HOA controlled development, one of the factors in making this decision was the fact that I could not erect the antenna farm I wanted.
In searching for a place to move, I thought I covered all bases. I made sure the property had no covenants or HOA, which it did not. I even got my realtor to obtain a letter from the county administrator that towers were permitted as "long as I complied with the county code." I thought, great I found a place where I can do what I want. I also live in the state of Virginia, which has a PRB-1 type law on the books. What could go wrong?
Well needless to say, I found out that installing a tower in the county where I live (Warren County) is not going to be an easy or economical proposition.
Here is the county code as it pertains to ALL antenna and tower installations:
"A. Ground-mounted structures, such as broadcast towers, receiving towers, communication relay towers and similar structures must have Board of Supervisors' approval through the conditional use permit process. Proposals for such structures shall demonstrate the following:
(1) The Planning Commission and/or the Board of Supervisors may require the review of the application by a third-party consultant approved by the Planning Commission or Board of Supervisors at the expense of the applicant.
(2) All possible means for sharing space on existing towers or on existing buildings or other structures have been exhausted and no alternative other than constructing a new tower exists.
(3) The applicant has executed a letter of intent to allow other parties to share space on their tower and negotiate in good faith with other interested parties.
(4) The height of any tower is no more than the minimum to accomplish required coverage, and any new tower is separated from any property line or right-of-way by not less than the height of the tower.
(5) The tower construction is of a design which minimizes the visual impact and the tower and other facilities have been camouflaged and/or screened from adjacent properties and rights-of-way to the maximum extent practicable. To this end, the proposal must provide for retention of existing stands of trees and the installation of screening where existing trees do not mitigate the visual impact of the facility. Such screening must, at a minimum, meet the requirements of § 180-18 of this chapter.
The Planning Commission may recommend and the Board of Supervisors may require additional trees and screening when the minimum provisions do not mitigate adverse visual impacts of the facility.
(6)The electromagnetic fields do not exceed the radio frequency emission standards established by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI).
(7) The tower shall be inspected annually and certified as safe by a private firm acceptable by the county and contracted for by the applicant. A copy of the inspection report with a certification that the tower is structurally safe and all microwave equipment is in proper working condition be provided to the county.
(8) The tower shall be demolished and removed within 90 days after abandonment. In order to ensure the demolition and removal of the tower, the applicant shall post a letter of credit or a bond with adequate surety acceptable to the county in an amount reasonably determined by the county, sufficient to pay for the costs of demolition and removal.
B. The placement of three antennas on an existing structure, such as a building, utility pole, water tank or other freestanding nonresidential structure or tower, shall be permitted so long as the addition of said antenna shall not add more than 20 feet in height to said structure or tower and the aggregate height of the tower and antenna shall not exceed 199 feet; and provided, however, that such specific permitted use shall not include the placement of additional buildings used in connection with said antenna. The electromagnetic fields for all antennas shall not exceed the radio frequency emission standards established by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI). Notwithstanding the above, the placement of more than three antennas on such structures shall require a conditional use permit.
C. Requests for exceptions from the height restrictions as set forth in § 180-13 must have Board of Supervisors' approval through the conditional use permit process."
Recently, I decided to attempt an application with the county which also requires a $500.00 application fee. Now I am second guessing of whether I want to put up a tower. I imagine the yearly inspection fee is going to be expensive. The county here does not care whether you are putting up a TV antenna or a million dollar microwave installation. All are treated the same.
Before you sign on the dotted line, be sure to check out the local zoning codes too.
73
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K6YE on September 21, 2009
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My advice would be to contact active hams in the area.
We decided to move to Denver, Colorado in 2004. We selected multiple RE agents because of the cities involved. Our desire was a 3K square foot home, on at least 1/4 acre, no CC&R/HOA, and top-of-the-line school district.
We looked in Parker, Castle Rock, Louisville, Erie, Lafayette, and Broomfield. There were lots of tracts that had "Covenant Controlled" etched in the development signage. We avoide them like the plague
After one week and what seemed like 1,000 homes, we found our home. I had already seen 5 50+ foot towers but went to the City Planner for the "real deal." The rules were: 50 feet maximum tower height not including mast; wet stamp; and a fee based on the cost of new building materials and tower. I brought my tower with me (no cost) and estimated the materials to cost about $800. My fee was $28. I provided the city with tower plans and showed where I was going to erect it. An engineer came out to check the proposed placement. He returned a second time to check the hole, base, and rebar placement. The final inspection came when I completed construction (including tower mounting and placement of antennas).
I have a Hy-Gsin HG-54HD tower (in 9 cubic yards of concrete), a Force-12 C-4XLD yagi, and a sloper for 160/80/40 meters. The concrete is overbuilt but I sleep well at night. At least two persons were not thrilled about my setup and complained (to no avail).
Our home is a 2-story, built in 1994, on .25 acres, 5K plus square feet, 4BR, 4BA, and all homes are custom built (no two are alike).
Homes for hams are available. Lessons that I have learned are:
1. Get a RE agent that listens and complies with your needs.
2. Seek out and ask the existing active hams in the desired area.
3. Be your normal nice self to your new neighbors.
4. Play nice with the local engineer.
5. Unless you are required by law, tell nobody of your proposed installation.
I really wanted to live in Boulder, Colorado but knew that they have a 35-foot rule (from the ground to the top of the antenna) so I ruled that city out. However there are a few older homes with 72 to 90 foot grandfathered structures. I am happy with what I have.
Good luck in your quest and remember to persevere!
Semper Fi,
Tommy - K6YE
DX IS
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by HFRF on September 21, 2009
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All you poor babies that whine when others with more power than you have individually can gang up and try to intimidate you to restrict you from doing what you want.
You babies that whine are the same babies that gang up on individuals on sites like eham and qrz and try to make site rules for others to adhere to like giving call letters.
For all you whiners and your HOA problems, I can stop laughing at all you adult babies that whine like babies when you can't do something that is restricted. Tough crap. What goes around, comes around.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K7CB on September 21, 2009
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AB7E wrote:
"I suspect that almost everyone in a HOA development has at one time or another felt that the administration of the HOA requirements was overly heavy-handed, or staffed by nazis. I'm curious, though ... has anyone ever polled the folks living in their particular HOA development to find out what percentage of people would rather not have an HOA? If so, what was the result? I'm aware of a few isolated cases where residents have voted to rescind an HOA, but I think that is pretty rare. I would bet that the great majority prefer to have the HOA exist rather than not."
We lived in an HOA neighborhood for six years while in Tampa. I got permission to put up a SteppIR BigIR vertical and a VHF/UHF antenna. Anyway, you bring up a valid point. We attended two of the HOA meetings once it was formed after the neighborhood was completed. One item on the agenda was to change the rule that banned backyard fences. Instead of simply voting on the measure, a majority of the people bitched about what type of fence to allow. Who cares! Worry about that part later. All the board wanted to do was change the rule so someone could put one up after getting approval. A few attendees stated that had they known what an HOA neighborhood was like, they would never have bought a house in one. And my wife finally agreed with me that HOA neighborhoods are a joke. It must have become too much of an inconvenience for everyone else too because no one enforced anything. There were HOA meetings, but they were rarely advertised and few attended. So, my feeling is, that unless you have neighbors who have absolutely nothing better to do with their time, you'll find quite a few HOA neighborhoods where the rules aren't being enforced.
AB7E wrote:
"Another curiosity question ... do banks ever require the existence of an HOA to "protect the equity" behind a mortgage?"
Yes! And not only the banks...but also the county or city government that approves the development. Why? Because, for the most part, it absolves them of dealing with code enforcement issues. Depending on what the problem is, such as parking, they'll refer the person back to their HOA board. In addition, law enforcement won't get involved on certain matters. For instance, many HOA neighborhoods will put signs at the entrance to the neighborhood saying "No Soliciting." When we lived in Tampa, I worked as a dispatcher for the sheriff's office and I got calls from homeowners wanting a deputy to come out and trespass someone who was soliciting. Guess what? Since it was the HOA that decided to ban soliciting and not the county, it wasn't a law enforcement issue. The only way a deputy could do anything is if the person was actually ON the callers property and refusing to leave...which was never the case. So, we had to tell them it wasn't our problem.
Anyway, in regards to your points above...I don't care what anyone does with their property that they paid for as long as it was legal.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KJ4GXU on September 21, 2009
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Reading this topic made me curious since I'll be purchasing a home soon. I'll be moving outside city limits and decided to go look up the county codes referring to towers.
My heart was sinking as I was reading the LONG list of requirements including certification by a prefessional engineer, a statement of no hazard from the FAA, a letter from the manager of the local municipal airport and the Air Traffic Control division for the adjacent military base, fencing requirements etc etc...
Then I got to this gem.
I. Private ham radio towers, satellite dishes, and television antenna which are not attached to a tower that provides utility services to the public, shall be exempt from the provisions of this section.
I knew there was a reason I liked this county.
DE KJ4GXU
Eric
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by AB4D on September 21, 2009
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HFRF...
You babies that whine are the same babies that gang up on individuals on sites like eham and qrz and try to make site rules for others to adhere to like giving call letters.
Why are you afraid to give your call?
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KB2FCV on September 21, 2009
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>I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from erecting a tower with a large wind-powered generator on it.
I would not, as others said.. as long as it's properly engineered. I'd probably be generally interested and most likely would make a new friend.
>I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a telecom company from putting up a cell phone tower on adjacent land.
If it's not going to interfere with my radio operations, it would not bother me in the least.
>I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from building a large personal solar observatory next door.
I'd definitely want to meet that neighbor, become good friends and assist in the project!
>I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from adding a second or third story to their house as an observation deck.
An observation deck for what? Whatever floats your boat. Again, it wouldn't bother me.
>I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from being able to park a crane in his back yard.
Many towns have ordinances against this, and the types that don't generally there is enough space between them that you would never see it. However if none of the above applied, well if I ever needed someone to do some antenna work, I would not raise the issue if they would be kind enough to assist with the crane if I ever needed it! Also, I know a friend who's company has bucket trucks. He's a cool person... into lots of neat stuff.
>I wonder how many hams are thankful for HOA restrictions on everything except antennas.
Not me.. I like the freedom to do what I want on my property. As long as what the neighbor has isn't a danger to me.. then it doesn't bother me.
>I wonder how many hams knowingly signed HOA agreements with the express intent to violate them later.
Not gonna happen as I would never even consider it!
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by WS4E on September 21, 2009
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I am in Louisville...and live in a HOA restricted neighborhood so I do the stealth wire antenna thing myself.
But, here is what I would suggest to you.
Two areas to look at: "The Highlands/Cherokee Park", and the area around Newberg Road near Bellermine College.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by NA7CS on September 21, 2009
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AB7XE asked:
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from erecting a tower with a large wind-powered generator on it."
Thinking about doing that myself
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a telecom company from putting up a cell phone tower on adjacent land."
I would rather have them put one on my land and collect rent. A bonus would be for them to allow me to hang antennas from it. Almost had a 90ft one from an Internet provider.
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from building a large personal solar observatory next door."
It's their land, why should it matter?
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from adding a second or third story to their house as an observation deck."
Again, its their land/house, why should it matter?
"I wonder how many hams would fight to prevent a neighbor from being able to park a crane in his back yard."
My neighbor is a general contractor, as such he has parked a crane, backhoe, end-loader and other construction equipment in his yard. However, he has used the backhoe to clean out my wash every few years, and has even let me hang wires from the crane when it will be parked for a while.
100ft of stick works great to hang a 160M 1/4 wl sloper from, with the crane itself being tied into the counterpoise.
"I wonder how many hams are thankful for HOA restrictions on everything except antennas."
I live in the country and do not have to deal with HOA's, CC&R's or any of their nonsense.
"I wonder how many hams knowingly signed HOA agreements with the express intent to violate them later."
I would never buy a house in a HOA or CC&R neighborhood.
Bottom line is, I own all rights to my land. As such I can do as I wish on it. My neighbors have the same property rights as I do. However this does not mean I get wild either. But I do have the option to do so if I wish.
I should add my front yard is +/- 2500 sq miles of BLM, and my back yard is +/- 15 sq miles of agriculture with very few neighbors.
73 DE NA7CS
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 21, 2009
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KE7FD writes: "have you tried to look at the situation through the eyes of the RE agent? If the agent were to aggressively search for a house that matched your requirements, he would be taking the risk of garnering some negative feedback for selling what most or at least many people feel is an undesirable blight in their neighborhood."
IIRC, there's something called "Equal Housing" laws in the USA. A person can't be discriminated against in housing because of race, religion, gender, or a bunch of other things.
Seems to me that trying to keep hams out of "nice" neighborhoods is a form of discrimination.
Remember, the buyer is saying UP FRONT what they want and do not want.
KE7FD: "So there we all are splashing in the pool, sipping lemonade and working DX all from the comfort of your QTH, when wafting in from the east comes a foul odor of which can only mean one thing: Pig farm! Someone has moved his swine just over the hill where the wind catches the stench of these curly tailed critters driving it right to your house, today, tomorrow and every day."
Only if the area is zoned agricultural.
A pig farm is a different thing from putting up a tower. You can't shut off smell or noise, and there are issues of stormwater runoff, waste lagoons, traffic, etc.
An antenna farm is, at worst, a visual thing. Very different.
KE7FD: " "But I was here first!", you say. Well, without drawing it out any further, you see what I mean."
No, I don't.
KE7FD: "Your antennas are viewed kind of like that."
Seems like a strained analogy to me.
As long as an antenna farm is properly engineered, installed and maintained, and sited so it can't fall on a neighbor's property, the only real objection possible is what it looks like.
If it's OK to ban antennas because of what they look like, why not insist that the appearance of homes must conform to what the neighbors consider attractive? How about having rules about what vehicles people can drive? Indeed, perhaps we should have dress codes, and not allow ugly people to move into nice neighborhoods.
See where that line of reasoning goes? All property owners have the responsibility to keep their places in good order and safe, but when things come down to "you can't do that because somebody might not like how it looks", that's a bit much. Particularly when we're talking about BIG lots.
It always amazes me that some people thing towers are ugly yet don't even seem to see traffic light poles, utility poles, etc.
KE7FD: "Don't get me wrong, I like a ham sandwich as much as the next guy but I just don't want the pig farm next to me."
Think about WHY you don't want to live next to a pig farm. It's the smell and the noise. An antenna farm has neither.
KE7FD: "Can anyone tell me shy so many RE agents advertise their services by posting photos of themselves?"
So you will recognize them when you see them. When you're in sales, personal recognition is a big thing.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K9CTB on September 21, 2009
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These are the sort of things that plague us all unfortunately ... and it's gonna get worse as we move toward a socialist government. Boy, I'd say N2EY hits it on the head!! It's your money and you don't wanna leave anything to chance. You're extremely lucky that you have a comfortable budget with which to work. Just echoing what others have said ... use that budget to your advantage.
If anyone is looking for a sharp-minded mentor, I'd recomment N2EY ... he makes a lot of sense.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by WB2WIK on September 21, 2009
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I'm glad to live here, where towers are allowed and pig farms are not.
We surely don't need CC&Rs or an HOA to dictate that, it's all described very well in the local municipal zoning ordinances.
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K0FL on September 21, 2009
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I lived in Oldham county for a number of years. There are lots of properties and many areas that do not have any restrictions on what you can do. Look out near LaGrange...for the money you are talking about you can live like a king.
73 de Tim KØFL
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K5YF on September 21, 2009
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I hope you and your wife find the perfect property for your needs. All my best with that.
There have been some great suggestions so far; here is mine: Depending on your lifestyle and operating flexibility, the top floor of a high-rise apartment/condo with roof space for gardening might be an option. Although $800k might not get you there it might just (I don't know the proposed area). The views are usually great and many times ham radio antennas perform well up there. Sometimes its noisy from an RF standpoint, but everything is a compromise.....
best 73
-Brandon
-K5YF
As an aside....
This might be a good time for us to remind ourselves what the definition of government is. Try this link http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/government
Anyone thinking a Home Owners Association isn't government would be incorrect.
Let's try to remember that in ALL situations and at ALL TIMES within the boundaries of the United States it is WE that choose our form of government(s).
Stop thinking like you have no say because you most certainly do.... but the civics lesson should be in some other thread.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K6IHC on September 21, 2009
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>WB2WIK wrote: I'm glad to live here, where towers are allowed and pig farms are not.
We surely don't need CC&Rs or an HOA to dictate that, it's all described very well in the local municipal zoning ordinances.>
I like my current city ordinances. Basically, they allow any antennas 35 ft or under (grade level to antenna tip) with no restrictions. Up to 70 ft falls under a *mini* telecom installation, with a city permit required. But virtually all amateur tower permit apps get approved. The average tower height around here is about 50 ft.
But there are some Calif cities that have virtually no antenna ordinances; they rely on the CC&Rs/HOAs to write and enforce them. What a cop-out for the local government!
Our subdivision was built in the late '80s, and there are a few landscaping CC&Rs on record with the county (and no antenna, vehicle, etc. restrictions), but in the details, it states that the CC&Rs sunset several years after the developer's last presence. As our developer is now defunct, it appears that the sunset clause is in effect.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 22, 2009
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K9CTB: Thank you for the kind words.
But CC&Rs, HOAs, POAs, etc. are NOT the work of "a socialist government"! In fact, they're the result of "small" governments not doing their job!
Things like building codes and zoning ordinances are government rules. They can be varianced, changed and/or challenged in court, and there are strict rules about what can and cannot be controlled by them.
Things like deed restrictions, deed covenants, HOA rules and regs, etc., are private contracts between people. They are almost always the work of developers and builders, who are about as capitalistic and free-market as they come (until they need a government bail-out, anyway). When someone buys a home with CC&Rs or HOA rules, they're signing PRIVATE CONTRACTS that have nothing to do with government rules.
Those private contracts are much more difficult to change, variance or challenge in court successfully. They can regulate things the government cannot. and they do.
I don't know of a single government ordinance, law, rule or regulation ANYWHERE that flat-out prohibits antennas because they are antennas. Except maybe in a designated historic district like colonial Williamsburg, which is more of a living museum than a 21st century community.
But in modern developments, no-antennas-of-any-kind rules are common. And they are private contracts, designed to be as unbreakable and unchangeable as possible.
My point is: Don't blame government for what the citizens are doing that is far in excess of government power. It's not the government that's writing the CC&Rs and HOA rules, nor making you sign the contracts.
Except in Arizona.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Suggestions for better results
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by KASSY on September 22, 2009
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When you seek the advice of someone who considers himself a "professional", you will get better results if you put him into the driver's seat. Rather than pre-supposing that what you need is "no CC&Rs" etc, simply state YOUR objectives and ask how to achieve them.
In your case, indicate that you wish a tower. Do NOT justify the tower based on your so-called "service to the community" - that makes it sound like you believe you are owed the privilege. People have hobbies and look for a home where they can practice them. Simply requesting help finding a location where you're allowed a 70 foot tower, for instance, because of your radio hobby, is no different than asking for help finding a property within a mile of horse trails, to indicate a different hobby.
The moment you start "defending" your needs on the basis of "what I do for others", you create an instant points-comparison game, and there are never winners in that scenario. "I deserve to find this property because of all the good deeds I do!" never works...never has. That's how you battle a court case, it's not how you build good relations with neighbors.
I attended an antennas/zoning seminar put on by an ARRL Volunteer Counsel at a west coast hamfest once. He started the whole thing this way.
Paraphrasing:
"People ask me the wrong questions", he said. "They ask me how to find a neighborhood with no HOA or they ask me how to get the HOA to change their rules. I tell them they're thinking the wrong way.
The first priority is being a good, worthy neighbhor, then people will go out of the way to make you feel welcome and accommodate you. If you're a contentious neighbor, who focuses on your rights, as opposed to neighborhood harmony, you won't be able to put a tower up even in the absence of CC&Rs. Local level courts in particular strive for harmony amongst people and have a great deal of latitude in how to administer the law. Your tower may well be within zoning laws, but if you are making a neighborhood case out of it, a judge may well decide that you are using the tower as a way to cause disruption of the peace - and he can legally require you to remove the tower if that is how you come across. It has happened many times. In fact, said this attorney, I have seen more hams lose towers despite zoning laws in their favor, than I've seen hams prohibited from building them despite zoning.
If you get along with the neighbors and are considered a real benefit to the neighborhood, then you will have no troubles putting up a tower even if the CC&Rs prohibit it. Easier in an older neighborhood, though, where the builder has been gone for decades."
My own experience suggests he's onto something. I first put up a dipole, then a vertical and the neighbors asked. I told them of my fun contacting hams around the world...I didn't say I was into emergency comms. We had a few power outages and I was still on the air. I mentioned this later that I had battery backup and was still on the air and the neighbors were impressed...hey, that could come in handy, they said.
I mentioned one day that I really needed the antenna up higher to be able to get to the next level and have more fun, and one of the neighbors actually suggested a tower and helped me site it where it would be "minimally invasive." I bought a used tower, got help from neighbors in digging trenches for the conduit for feedlines, etc. All this in a neighborhood whose CC&Rs say "no external antennas other than satellite dishes for internet and TV".
The law is a fall-back...if you find that you have to use the law as your proof, or defense, or shield, then you've already lost the battle.
- k
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 22, 2009
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K5YF writes: "Depending on your lifestyle and operating flexibility, the top floor of a high-rise apartment/condo with roof space for gardening might be an option."
I suspect that the legal and engineering requirements could be severe.
K5YF:"many times ham radio antennas perform well up there. Sometimes its noisy from an RF standpoint, but everything is a compromise....."'
I suspect that the RF noise at HF would be pretty high. Also, since most tall buildings have a lot of steel in the structure, the effective height of a horizontal antenna might not be as great as it seems. All depends on the situation.
K5YF: "Anyone thinking a Home Owners Association isn't government would be incorrect."
I disagree!
HOAs are not 'government' in the sense of federal, state, county or local governments, which is what most people mean when they talk about "the government".
K5YF: "Let's try to remember that in ALL situations and at ALL TIMES within the boundaries of the United States it is WE that choose our form of government(s)."
We choose them in the sense that we always have the freedom to go somewhere else. That may mean leaving the community, the state, or even the country, but except for criminals or those accused of serious crime, Americans all have the freedom to pack up and go someplace else.
K5YF: "Stop thinking like you have no say because you most certainly do.... but the civics lesson should be in some other thread."
Every citizen has a say, but the government doesn't always listen.
As for civics lessons, I think this thread is as good a place as any.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Suggestions for better results
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by N2EY on September 22, 2009
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KASSY: Excellent post! I agree on all your points.
But I will add a few comments.
Make sure you have the right professional. Such as a true real estate lawyer to do research and pass judgement on all papers, not just any lawyer.
It's important to tell the professionals *exactly* what you do and do not want. "No CC&Rs" is a very tall order in many places. "No anti-antenna or anti-support-structure CC&Rs" is much more exact. (My house was built in 1951 and has a page and a half of deed restrictions. Nothing about antennas, though. If I told the realtor "no CC&Rs" I'd probably still be looking for a house in this area).
Another example is the desire for a "new" or "newer" house. To me, anything built after WW2 is a "newer" house (my first house was built in 1900, my second in 1923). But to someone else, a "newer" house may be limit the selection to only homes less than 5 years old. (Why do so many hams want "new" or "newer" homes, anyway?)
It's also important to *listen* to what they say, even if it doesn't agree with what you think or the way things should be.
I think that trying to "justify" a tower or anything else based on public service or emergency comms is simply wrong-minded. A person doesn't need to justify wanting to do something that doesn't harm others. The person who wants to garden, sculpt, paint, woodwork, exercise or do a wide variety of other activities at home doesn't have to justify them - and neither should hams. People often interpret such behavior as "being defensive", and suspect that the person doing it is trying to hide something or put one over.
While some hams have been successful in getting exceptions to HOA rules and CC&Rs, I think it's a grave error to think it can be done in all cases or even most cases. Often such rules are carefully written to be unbendable and unchangeable, so the person who thinks they can get around them is set up for disappointment.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N4MPM on September 22, 2009
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I am a resident in an adjoining county (Shelby) and HOA's are not the largest issue. Not all residential areas are burdened by them.
The fly in the soup is the Planning and Zoning Boards. Towers are considered a "conditional use" structure unless attached to your house. As such, they require a variance from the Board, and it must be agreed to by your adjoining property owners. Application and appearance before the Board is part of the process. There are fees involved, as part of the application. You will need to check with both the Realator and the Title Atty. on HOA's, and with the local Board for Zoning processes.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by W1RKW on September 22, 2009
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Cut thru the BS and deal with the municipality of interest from the start. They should know everything about the neighborhood and/or property you're interested in.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KC8VWM on September 22, 2009
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Jim Says:
A couple of minor points for the next agent:
1) Do not use the words "hobby" or "tower" - ever. Just say you are an amateur radio operator, and that you intended to put up an antenna system. "Hobby" trivializes what you do; "tower" reminds people of broadcast and cell structures hundreds of feet tall.
2) Don't mention SKYWARN or other nets/systems. They mean nothing to non-hams until the weather turns bad (see note below).
3) Get pictures of amateurs' homes with antenna systems, and show them to the agent. Words don't convey the meaning.
---------------
Not to single you out in particular Jim, but comments like this and similar comments seem to suggest we have no right to operate our radio equipment...
I am wondering if we are somehow required to hide our activities and operate in seclusion or something from the rest of mainstream society?
Last question... Why?
Any follow up thoughts appreciated.
My Best,
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KC8VWM on September 22, 2009
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Basically we are all licensed amateur radio operators.
The activities we engage in do not require someone else's approval.
It is not up to "other people" to decide what activities we may or may not engage in.
Contrary to popular belief, Amateur radio isn't an illegal activity and as such, antenna restrictions "should" not be applicable or even a matter up for consideration.
I mean you can't say it's "legal" and then impose so many restrictions on it that it makes it virtually impossible..
After all, this is America... or is it really?
73 de Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KC8VWM on September 22, 2009
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Basically we are all licensed amateur radio operators.
The activities we engage in do not require someone else's approval.
It is not up to "other people" to decide what activities we may or may not engage in.
Contrary to popular belief, Amateur radio isn't an illegal activity and as such, antenna restrictions "should" not be applicable or even a matter up for consideration.
I mean you can't say it's "legal" and then impose so many restrictions on it that it makes it virtually impossible..
After all, this is America... or is it really?
73 de Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KC8VWM on September 22, 2009
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I am not trying to sound "simple" nor am I trying to disregard the intent of such local structure legislation. However, it must be understood that for almost 100 years amateurs have erected antenna structures for this purpose.
My question is why is there this "sudden need" to somehow require amateurs to apply for "permission" after we have been erecting antenna's and engaging in such activities for almost a century in the past without any such "permissions" required.
Think about that...
Ask yourself why they should need anything at all.
Regards,
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 23, 2009
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I previously wrote:
1) Do not use the words "hobby" or "tower" - ever. Just say you are an amateur radio operator, and that you intended to put up an antenna system. "Hobby" trivializes what you do; "tower" reminds people of broadcast and cell structures hundreds of feet tall.
2) Don't mention SKYWARN or other nets/systems. They mean nothing to non-hams until the weather turns bad (see note below).
3) Get pictures of amateurs' homes with antenna systems, and show them to the agent. Words don't convey the meaning.
---------------
KC8VWM replies: "comments like this and similar comments seem to suggest we have no right to operate our radio equipment..."
How do they suggest that?
The comments I wrote are meant to tell a non-ham real estate person what a ham is looking for in a house.
If an amateur says "I want to put up a 50 foot tower with a TH6 triband Yagi on it" what most non-hams hear is "Garble garble ENOURMOUS TALL STEEL CELL PHONE TOWER garble garble garble". What you say has a very different meaning to them because they don't have the background a ham does.
The issue is not the right to operate our radios. It's about getting permission to put up antennas, and particularly support structures for them, which is a completely different thing.
KCC8VWM: "I am wondering if we are somehow required to hide our activities and operate in seclusion or something from the rest of mainstream society?"
Nope. But we are required to play by society's rules and regulations, and abide by contracts we have signed.
KC8VWM: "Basically we are all licensed amateur radio operators.
The activities we engage in do not require someone else's approval."
Yes, they do. We need FCC's approval, in the form of a license. That license grants privileges, not rights.
KC8VWM:"Contrary to popular belief, Amateur radio isn't an illegal activity and as such, antenna restrictions "should" not be applicable or even a matter up for consideration."
Why not?
The possession of an amateur radio license does not grant someone the right to violate building safety codes and private contracts.
For example, does having an amateur radio license mean I suddenly become a structural engineer who can certify the safety of a large antenna installation that, if it fell, could land on a neighbor's property and cause damage? I don't think it does. So building permits and inspections may be needed, same as if I want to build a garage or add onto my house. So the local government has the right - in fact, the duty - to insure that structures are installed properly and safely.
Another example: Some years back I thought about moving, and looked at a house about a half-mile away. Nice big place, built in the 1970s or so, big yard out back with tall trees. Not too expensive, either.
Turned out it was in a "planned community" that was governed by an HOA. I asked for, and received, a copy of the HOA rules. I remember two of the rules almost verbatim:
"All residents, property owners, tenants and guests in XXXX Homes agree to comply with all HOA rules contained in this document at all times, as a condition of purchase, rental or occupancy." (there was a place for signatures after this)
"No external radio or television antennas of any kind are permitted anywhere in XXXX Homes."
If I'd bought that home, I would have had to sign a contract that included those rules (and many others).
So I didn't buy the house.
KC8VWM: "I mean you can't say it's "legal" and then impose so many restrictions on it that it makes it virtually impossible.."
That depends on what a person wants to do, and where they want to do it.
The author of the original article is looking to buy a house in a specific area, and wants to be able to put up a fairly substantial antenna system in the new place. We're trying to help him find a place where he can do that without a lot of problems.
We can talk about how things "should be", but that won't help the ham who is looking for a house. He has to deal with the way things really are.
How someone approaches people has a lot to do with whether one gets what they want. Moving into a restricted home and then trying to get the rules changed isn't the best way to go.
KC8VWM: "After all, this is America... or is it really?"
It's the United States of America. Which is a place that prides itself on the rule of law.
KC8VWM: "it must be understood that for almost 100 years amateurs have erected antenna structures for this purpose."
OK so far...
KC8VWM: "My question is why is there this "sudden need" to somehow require amateurs to apply for "permission" after we have been erecting antenna's and engaging in such activities for almost a century in the past without any such "permissions" required."
There is no "sudden" need. In many places, building permits and other certifications have been needed for many years. Safety regulations is the main reason.
There are also many homes where external antennas are not allowed, or are restricted, due to private contracts signed when you buy the house. A ham who buys such a house has agreed to those restrictions.
KC8VWM: "Ask yourself why they should need anything at all."
The first reason is safety. If someone wants to build a house, don't you think they should be required to follow the building codes?
The second reason is the effects it could have on other properties. That's what zoning is all about.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K4JRB on September 23, 2009
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THere are several problems being faced here. The most important with new homes is that the banks and mortage companies require CC&R's to finance new subdivisions. The established CC&R's are just copied into covenants. True, they are private contracts but when the home is new you cannot get financing if you try to write into the contract any type of antenna. On older resells you have to get approval from the HOA which is next to impossible.
Zoning boards are much easier at least in the Atlanta metro area. PRB-1 and active amateur radio participation in cell tower ordinances have actualy helped (usually to 70 feet before special use permits).
In Atlanta you have some older neighborhoods with no HOA or CC&R's. Beware of any subdivision built in the past 20 years as described in paragraph 1. Some move far out to have a few acres.
Even if you move into an area that allows antennas without a fight initially you will run into people who think towers are ugly and can lower the property value. There was a retired ham who had his tower and 5 el 20 meter beam up for years and a lady complained
and got press coverage. He kept his beam but got terrible press who waived off the service amateur radio provides. Real estate professionals promote the concept that s tower will lower property values. This is why one GA senator will not support any action to assist amateurs as he ran a large real estate company prior to being elected. So unless the agent is a ham
expect no support.
Dave K4JRB
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K5BBT on September 23, 2009
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on September 21, 2009, KJ4GXU wrote:
> I. Private ham radio towers ... shall be exempt
> from the provisions of this section.
> I knew there was a reason I liked this county.
And which county would this be?
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K9DY on September 23, 2009
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I have done a lot of searching as you have for years. You will not be able to find a house in any newer subdivision without CC&R's, period. You will have to locate in an older non-restricted area, or buy land that is not part of a development.
The best bet is to find some acreage in an unincorporated area where you only have county guidelines to deal with. In my county antennas are allowed up to 75 feet as "accessory use", but cities and towns have their own rules. You have a chance with everything but CC&R's using PRB-1, but why go through the hassle?
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KU4GU on September 23, 2009
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This may have been posted by someone already, but the ARRL is working toward legislation to help with the HOA/CC&R problem. See the article linked below. It has information on what you can do to encourage lawmakers from your area to support the bill.
http://www.arrl.org/?artid=9175
I'm not sure everyone should put up a 75ft tower on a city lot, but many HOA's now won't allow any outdoor antenna at all. I encourage everyone to support the bill using the instructions provided. Even if you don't have this problem now, you may in the future (and think of all your ham-radio brethren that are "stuck"). The bill will not solve the problem, but calls for a study into the matter which is the first step as I understand it.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KC8VWM on September 23, 2009
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Hi Jim,
While I do understand and I do agree with the need for basic "safety" related rules and requirements in any antenna installation, I feel in many instances such restrictions imposed extend far beyond the scope of "basic safety."
As I mentioned earlier, many hams have been installing antenna structures with little or no cause or concern for safety for almost a century.
Keep in mind even the "safest" antenna structure can sometimes present risks. Similarly, we take similar risks crossing the road or operating a motor vehicle everyday.
So it would seem to suggest the solution in this case would be to enact legislation and restrictions which would prohibit everyone from driving a vehicle on the road because it too may impose safety related risks.
Similarly, all antenna structures are prohibited in some areas because of so called "safety" risks. What these "anti antenna structure" people fail to provide are actual statistics to back up such claims. In fact, from a statistical standpoint antenna structures which are installed to specification are far safer than driving a car.
So what is the purpose of such antenna restrictions.... (Really....? ) Do they impose such rules on all antenna structures because they are so unsafe and because they are suddenly falling down all over the country in everyone's neighborhood lately? .. or perhaps it's not really a "safety related" matter at all...
Perhaps they use "safety" as an excuse to meet another unrelated objective. Because I am not at all convinced "safety" is somehow the determining factor to enact such restrictions in this equation.
Your comments are well received Jim. Thank you for your well thought out response and most generous insight.
My Best,
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KI4DJN on September 23, 2009
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I have lived in Louisville for 58yrs and that agent needs to research the topic. There are plenty of areas in Louisville that allow antennas and even towers. The best areas are on the out skirts of town.. Simpsonville, Taylorsville, Oldham county, Goshen, and many more areas. A 70 ft tower (that I snew construction might cause a raised eyebrow or two. I would look in Simpsonville for 10 to 20 acres and build new.
There are plenty of hams in that area I would bet some of them are real estate brokers or agents.
73
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KA2DDX on September 23, 2009
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This probably won't help you too much, but I understand what you're up against. I understand how you want a new or newer home to live in. Only problem it just about all of them are in restricted areas.
Maybe, you can consider an older home that needs a little love? That's what my XYL and I did. I got antennas up, nice neighborhood, nice neighbors, life is good. And, we modified the house to suit our tastes. Just a thought.
My son is having a home built now, and he's signing off on that stuff, covenants..........yuk!
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 23, 2009
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KC8VWM: "I feel in many instances such restrictions imposed extend far beyond the scope of "basic safety.""
Of course. The question is, how do we oppose those that do, and get them changed?
KC8VWM: "As I mentioned earlier, many hams have been installing antenna structures with little or no cause or concern for safety for almost a century."
Agreed. But there have also been hams who disregarded safety, with tragic results.
KC8VWM: "Keep in mind even the "safest" antenna structure can sometimes present risks. Similarly, we take similar risks crossing the road or operating a motor vehicle everyday."
Agreed again. But the main question is: who takes the risk? If an adult citizen wants to risk their own life/health/property, that's one thing, but when they put the life/health/property of others at risk, it's a very different situation.
KC8VWM: "So it would seem to suggest the solution in this case would be to enact legislation and restrictions which would prohibit everyone from driving a vehicle on the road because it too may impose safety related risks."
No, that doesn't logically follow.
What *does* logically follow are things like safety standards and inspections for motor vehicles, testing and licensing of drivers, enforcement of safety rules, and more.
That we don't do a perfect job in the area of motor vehicle safety does not mean building codes are unnecessary.
KC8VWM: "Similarly, all antenna structures are prohibited in some areas because of so called "safety" risks."
Where? And who prohibits them?
KC8VWM: "What these "anti antenna structure" people fail to provide are actual statistics to back up such claims. In fact, from a statistical standpoint antenna structures which are installed to specification are far safer than driving a car."
Do you have statistics to back up that claim? More important, what about structures that are not installed and maintained to appropriate specification?
KC8VWM: "So what is the purpose of such antenna restrictions.... (Really....? ) Do they impose such rules on all antenna structures because they are so unsafe and because they are suddenly falling down all over the country in everyone's neighborhood lately? .. or perhaps it's not really a "safety related" matter at all..."
My point is that safety is a legitimate reason for regulations - not prohibitions.
From what I have seen, the prohibitions are usually driven by other concerns.
For example, back in the 1970s, developers and cable-TV providers came to an agreement that was win-win for them: The developers would write CC&Rs that prohibited external antennas of all kinds, and the cable-TV folks would wire new developments for cable-TV at cost or even for free. The homes could then be advertised as "cable ready", there would be no installation fees or delays, and most homebuyers would sign up for cable once they discovered how poor reception was with indoor antennas. The scheme worked so well that no-external-antennas restrictions became part of many developers' boilerplate.
Another factor is what I call the "McMansion esthetic". This is a kind of architecture that has the following characteristics:
- Relatively large house on relatively small lot.
- No sidewalks, large trees, borderline bushes, fences, or other separating elements. No real separation between private and public spaces
- All utilities buried, all utility elements (meters, AC compressors, etc.) concealed.
- Automobile-centric living (doing almost anything requires a car ride).
The result is a community where anything you do that is the least bit different sticks out like crazy. There is little real variety between homes. Conformity is the ideal.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K4JRB on September 25, 2009
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Towers on city/suburban lots are very common in the places qhere I have lived. I have a 71 foot crank up
next to the house on a 1/2 acre lot. I listened to a K6 who has 3 or 4 towers on his 1/3 acre lot in CA.
The banks and builders/developers put CC&R's on subdivisions around Atlanta and expect a HOA to be formed to keep them in place. Two large subdivisions
near me let the CC&R's lapse. One reformed the HOA
and tried to enforce the no antenna rule. THe court ruled they missed their chance. The HOA did enforce rules about color of paints and yard statues. The only rule they got voted down on was flags and flagpoles. Two hams decided to move elsewhere
to avoid the HOA's police state enforcement.
The first step is that the police powers of HOA's must be curbed. They are above local, state, and federal rules and should not be!
Dave K4JRB
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KF7CG on September 25, 2009
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In my moving around the country and having to look for affordable housing that would permit antennas, I made one very startling discovery.
Lot size has nothing to do with the prohibition of antennas! Zoning restrictions often tie lot size to the type and size of antenna that will be prohibitted.
I found, however, that almost any size lot and that means up to 5 acres (as much as I could generally afford), that had any restrictions had anti-antenna provisions. This included developments in declared agricultural zones where the agricultural owners could errect 80 foot silos but the development neighbor next door couldn't even have an outside wire.
Most talk of safety and/or aesthetics is just rhetorical clap trap to disguise the unease that a great deal of people feel when someone has a means of communications at there disposal that is not available to the other.
Remember the Japaneese proverb: "The nail that sticks up will be hammered down!" Xenophobia and jealosy at their ugliest.
KF7CG
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by W2MC on September 25, 2009
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I just did the www.realtor.com thing, with Louisville KY, "farm", and "5 acres or more" clicked, and came up with a ton of nice looking properties in that area; most well under your dollar figure.
They can't all be antenna challenged.....
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on September 25, 2009
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KF7CG: "Lot size has nothing to do with the prohibition of antennas!"
Yep.
It has more to do with the age of the house and the kind of community. For houses less than 35 years old, there's the added factor of whether the place was built by itself or is part of a larger development/subdivision/planned community.
KF7CG: "Zoning restrictions often tie lot size to the type and size of antenna that will be prohibitted."
I don't think zoning or other government regulations can ban antennas at all, except possibly in historic districts. I don't know of a single ordinance or code that prohibits antennas outside historic districts.
What zoning and other codes often do is to regulate "structures" - which means towers - through things like maximum height limits, setbacks, etc. For example, if zoning requires that a tower be located so that if it fell it would land entirely on the owner's property, and your lot is 50 feet wide, you can't have a tower higher than 25 feet without a variance.
CC&Rs are a different story. They can and do ban just about anything, because they're private contracts.
KF7CG: "This included developments in declared agricultural zones where the agricultural owners could errect 80 foot silos but the development neighbor next door couldn't even have an outside wire."
Those anti-antenna rules are from the development, not the zoning or building codes.
KF7CG: "Most talk of safety and/or aesthetics is just rhetorical clap trap to disguise the unease that a great deal of people feel when someone has a means of communications at there disposal that is not available to the other."
I disagree!
Safety is a legitimate concern, but it's easily handled by the same engineering practices that assure that a house won't fall down. Of course, some areas go far beyond reasonable regulations.
Esthetics are a legitimate concern up to a point. The problem is where that point is. I mean, if esthetics are that important, should we have dress codes and ugly-people bans? (If so, I'm in trouble!)
Personally, I'm not a big fan of stucco. I much prefer siding, brick or stone. But that personal esthetic doesn't give me the right to try to stop a neighbor from stuccoing his house!
It's not about communications-envy. It's about fear; fear of ANYTHING different or unknown. And a desire for all to conform to a specific standard of behavior and ideas.
Besides the cable-TV deal, the draconian HOA rules and CC&Rs are about the fear that people won't be good neighbors and behave in reasonable ways. So the rules try to FORCE people to be good neighbors by banning all sorts of harmless things out of fear of what someone might do if allowed. Forget about towers; many places ban clotheslines!
Local governments have strict limits about what they can and can not ban or regulate. Both the Federal and State constitutions protect our rights.
But HOA rules and CC&Rs can ban things no government would dream of even addressing, because they're private contracts.
The real-world solution for most hams comes down to this:
1) Do every possible research before signing anything.
2) Get a good RE lawyer and a good buyer's agent. If they don't understand what you want, get another.
3) Don't set your heart on a house in a development/subdivision/planned community less than 35 years old, because the chances of finding one that allows antennas is pretty slim (but not zero).
4) Do look at older homes, homes built one-at-a-time, and land.
5) Always remember that when it comes to restrictions, it's much easier to put them on than to take them off.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by WA2JJH on September 26, 2009
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There is the emminant domain law. Very weak.
I guess the anti-antiantenna mindset started with commercial repeaters popping up for Puplic saftey started dotting the map in the end part of the 1950's.
Then 11M GMRS or just CB, no license came into play after that Lou Mccoy song convoy.
I really think the Hams most UNFAIRLY got bunched in with CB TVI(around 1976). Cell phones sites sprang up un-impeaded in the early 1980s.
There has never been a big influx of hams. We are still only 650-750 thousand.
These HOA whoas were really oomplaining about RF EVERYWHERE. Hams are too easy to target. How many hams have looked over their shoulders building stealth antennas. Mean will a 9 cell site tower goes up with nobody to say booooh. People would die without cell phones. Right
Hams are too friendly and civil to try accomidation or apeasement with knocklehead nitwit neighborhood folk.
It always boils down to who has the bux and the Washington DC lobby lice.
The Cell Phone corps sure do. The 800 mhz Trunking folk throw money at situations too. The CBers were the greatest amount of RFI produced per person.
Hams are paying twice for the 11M ham band of the 50's, now 11M CB. The first CB tube rigs were always modified into splatter supliers.
So a simpleton HOA group just blanket bans all antennas.
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KG4RRN on September 26, 2009
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Hi Jim and Charles...
I lived in a very expensive part of the Metro Washingotn Metroplis for over 8 years, McLean, VA.
I appreciated the fact that the house was situated on a hillside, and I didn't need a large tower to "get out" the signal, and then I located some historic preservation land, to operated from on field day (please see my website at www.kg4rrn.webs.com for pics) which can be seen by the ISS. I had no problem erecting a 50 foot ladder tower on that land, but on the house, I only needed a two for forty on a tripod mount for over 80 miles of continued radiation and enough room to put up a wire antenna in the back yard (by poolside), which worked well about 15 feet off the ground, skimming along the fence parimeter(sp) so my suggestion is of course, to check for any restrictions first, not letting onto what you plan to do, but then once it is checked out and cleared, you might want to visit town hall to ask the clerk how many tower applications for ham radio have been approved by the locals over the past five years, and how many did not.
That should give you an idea of how to proceed.
Best of Luck finding a Ham happy House and land!~
BOB (I spell it the same, frontward and backward).
I will now return to sipping my mint julip....
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K4PP on September 27, 2009
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Almost all newer neighborhoods have a CC&R but they don't always preclude antenna's so I wouldn't necessarily rule them all out. My neighborhood was around 1996 and has a 30 year CC&R but no antenna restriction and there is no HOA. All the neighborhoods built, and being built, around mine are all HOA. I have a brother who lives in a neighborhood down the road from me in a HOA and I can tell you there are people who love them. He cannot believe that I put up an antenna at 40 ft in a neighborhood with homes avg. $300,000 - $500,000 and no one has complained. When I explained to him that no one has complained because they can't (they're actually all really cool neighbors) he thanks his stars for his HOA. He doesn't like his neighbors fence because it's one of those panel type in white and wishes his HOA would control that. We're not the same, he and I : ). The people who bought into the HOA are plentiful or there would not be so many. And now there are so many you can't but buy into them. I think with the market they way it is is a perfect time to buy in a neighborhood built around the mid '90's that probably has a forgiving CC&R but no HOA and offers modern spacious living.
K4PRP
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RE: The HOA and the art of deception.
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by WA2JJH on September 28, 2009
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THE FOLLOWING CAN BE USED AS COMEDY OR A REAL WAY TO DEAL WITH hoA-NATZIES.
1)You have not been accused of any TVI. If you see this neigbor, be cold. Not nasty, however exibit a look.
2)You will now begin your goal Of ham radio.
NEVER DISCUSS YOUR HOBBIES OR ACTIVITIES THAT ARE NOT MAINSTREAM OR CONFUSE PEOPLE OF POOR CNS ACTIVITY.
3)Practice your small talk skills with this yokel.
4)IN YOU MIND REPEAT WHILE YOU ARE FAKING LISTING TO THIS ZIT. MAKE LIKE you really give a FRENCH POODLE TURD about this persons life or hobbies.
5)THINK ABOUT HOW BIG OF A STEALTH ANTENNA, YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH!!!!!!!!
5A
5)Join the NRA. Proudly wear NRA hat when you maybe visable to neigbor nebish
6)FEED THE SUBJECT GREAT WAR STORYS OF SKYWARN AND YOU.
7)TELL EVERYBODY IN TOWN, YOU FORGOT ABOUT SKYWARN.
8)FEED THEM A BS STORY ABOUT HOW SKYWARN IS "CONNECTED" WITH THE MAFIA AND ALL THE ALPHABET AGENCIES. YOU EVEN FOUND OUT HOW JIMMY HOFFA DIED!!!!
9)TAKE A FEW SICK DAYS OFF FROM WORK.
10)START BUILDING YOUR STEALTH ANTENNA. A 10M REDUCED HEIGHT VERTICAL DIPOLE MAY BE A START.
11)THE 100FT STEALTH TOWER MADE FROM THE OLD B-117 STEALTH BOMBER MATERIAL WITH OVER 90 33 AND 66 FOOT GROUND RADIALS IS A GOOD IDEAL TO AIM FOR. IN REALITY, YOUR STEALTH ANTENNA CAN BE A COMPROMISE OF AN ENTIRE ANTENNA FARM OR A 2M GROUNDPLANE MADE OUT OF AN SO-239 CONNECTOR WITH COATHANGER WIRE RADIATOR AND RADIALS AT VERY WORST.
12)FLY THE OL FLAG POLE ANTENNA BY THE GOOD FOLK. IF THEY SAY NO......TELL THEM YOUR VIETNAME VETERAN MOTORCYCLE GANG WILL NOT BE VERY HAPPY!!!!!
THEN PAYOFF SOME GANG KIDS TO TAG/GRAFITTI THE TOWN.
13)NEXT DAY, HAVE YOUR WIFE EXPLAIN THAT YOUR ON MEDICATION.
14)WHILE THE XYL IS ON THE PHONE CALL, CQ ON 20M.
YOUR XYL. OR NEIGHBOR WILL ONLY COMPLAIN IF IT WAS YOUR FAULT.
15)MAKE STEALTH ANTENNA LARGER. STOP. WAIT A FEW DAYS.
16)REPEAT STEP 14 AND 15, UNTIL YOUR ANTENNA IS FINISHED!!!!!!
17)IF ASKED ABOUT TVI OR RFI......BLAME IT ON THE GANG BANGER KIDS WITH CBs.
18)PAY OFF THE GANGBANGERS WITH EXPIRED MEDICATION FROM YOUR MEDICINE CABINET. IT IS A HOOT TO SEE A GANGBANGER OVERDOSE ON YOUR XYL'S BIRTH CONTROL PILLS!!!
19)NEVER GIVE THE GANGBANGERS ANY CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE.(OR ANY REAL DRUG EVER!!)
GIVE THEM GENERIC TYLENOL. TELL THE GANG THE TYLENOLS ARE 120MG OXYCONTIN TIME RELEASED. SWITCH OVER TO GLUCOSE TABLETS. THOSE CAN BE MADE TO LOOK LIKE METHADONE 80MG DISKETTS.
JUST KIDDING ABOUT ALL ABOVE, EXCEPT FOR STARTING YOUR STEALTH ANTENNA PROJECT....NOW!!!!!
73 DE MIKE JJH
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RE: The HOA and the art of deception.
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by W6ONV on September 28, 2009
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I think this gem was unwarranted, "Preferably a newer home with no CC&R garbage either." I would think if you are attempting to work WITH a potential HOA or Realtor you would want to come across more professional without the negative attitude (forgive me if I am wrong).
At least your fiancee understands the importance of your hobby and is willing to work with you to find an acceptable housing arrangement. In my limited experience with neighbors and the HOA, here is what I have found. None of them care about my hobby or the fact I have an antenna erected in the backyard. That said, it is just a 32' vertical and it cannot be seen from all angles when standing in front of the house (curb appeal they call it, right?) I have consulted all the neighbors around me and none of them had a problem with my putting my antenna up, even got it in writing to present to the HOA.
Let me preface this by saying when we moved in I was licensed, but I was not active. It was only AFTER we got settled that I decided to move forward and pursue further testing and licensing, so I walked into a bum situation with the HOA and the CC&Rs put forth by the management company. Of course the optimal situation would be a few acres set apart from neighbors, but in California that is going to cost you (unless you live in Crest...right MHZ?). So I must work within the rules and regulations that are already in place.
I have said this before, but I presented my proposal to the HOA and the management company and they were willing to listen to what I said before shooting down my proposal about erecting an antenna. Now if I came forth with a 50' tower and stacked yagis that would have been another different situation, one in which I would most likely ended up on the wrong end of the the decision. Thankfully they likeed my informative presentation and accompanying information and pictures and they agreed to let me erect the antenna.
But as has been mentioned before I am probably only one phone call away from someone complaining about the antenna and I would be asked to comply and take the antenna down. Until that time I will continue to operate. I have been contemplating a small 3 element yagi (YP-3 from Superantennas.com), multiband hexbeam or 20m moxon. Not sure it would be something that I could have above the roof line on a daily basis, but I am sure with proper documentation (maybe pushing the envelope) I could get something else installed. The real sticking point would be the XYL.
73,
Stephen W6ONV
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What really bothers me about all this
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by N2EY on September 28, 2009
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W6ONV writes: "I would think if you are attempting to work WITH a potential HOA or Realtor you would want to come across more professional without the negative attitude."
Stephen, I hear what you're saying. And of course tact and a positive attitude go a long way.
But also remember the frustration of finding house after house with "NO ANTENNAS" in the HOA rules or CC&Rs.
W6ONV: "None of them care about my hobby or the fact I have an antenna erected in the backyard. ...Thankfully they likeed my informative presentation and accompanying information and pictures and they agreed to let me erect the antenna.
But as has been mentioned before I am probably only one phone call away from someone complaining about the antenna and I would be asked to comply and take the antenna down."
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but it simply doesn't seem right to me that my modest amateur radio antenna could/would be at the mercy of my neighbors, whose approval could be revoked on short notice and with no recourse other than to move away. Or that ANY homeowner would be so restricted by such arbitrary rules.
I could see if the issue were a big tower on a small lot. Or if there were serious and genuine safety concerns.
But the HOA rules and CC&Rs I've come across that restrict antennas usually say "no external antennas of any kind" And except for those antennas permitted by the OTARD ruling, they mean "NO EXTERNAL ANTENNAS" regardless of size, shape, visibility, location, etc. Even a simple wire dipole or vertical is often forbidden. Why?
Except for a few years in rented housing, I've always been able to find homes where I could put up a simple antenna without hassles. I've been fortunate to live in parts of the USA where older homes are common. I hope I can always find a suitable home without antenna restrictions.
I'm old enough, and been a ham long enough, to remember when antenna restrictions where something only renters had to deal with. When the idea that a homeowner couldn't put up a wire, vertical or small beam because of deed restrictions or HOA rules would have been considered not only ridiculous but unAmerican.
But as the years go by and more and more homes are heavily restricted, I'm concerned that the selection of ham-friendly homes will diminish to the point where it is often impossible to find one when it's needed, at least in some places.
And the restrictions are not being limited to row houses, condos, and little-boxes-made-of-ticky-tacky developments. More and more, big homes on large lots are being encumbered by CC&Rs to the same level. I think it was WB2WIK who told of travelling to Colorado to look at new homes on 3+ acre lots in prime radio locations - only to find all of them encumbered by "NO ANTENNAS" rules.
I'm glad you were able to convince the neighbors that your antenna isn't a problem. But in many situations that cannot be done - all it takes is one neighbor to say no. Or, even if agreement can be reached, the neighbors do not have the authority to override the CC&Rs.
W6ONV: "The real sticking point would be the XYL."
Why?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The HOA and the art of deception.
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by W6ONV on September 29, 2009
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N2EY writes: "Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but it simply doesn't seem right to me that my modest amateur radio antenna could/would be at the mercy of my neighbors, whose approval could be revoked on short notice and with no recourse other than to move away. Or that ANY homeowner would be so restricted by such arbitrary rules."
Maybe I should have stated it different or maybe it doesn't matter. Let me say I agree with you that my hobby should not be dictated by what my neighbors have to say. Regardless of living on a 5 acre ranch with no one around or a 50x100 foot lot with neighbors damn near on top of me.
I hopes of persuading the HOA or provide an exemption to a stated "no towers" in the CC&Rs, getting a signed petition from the neighbors immediately in my vicinity would help me present a stronger case to the HOA board of directors. To be completely honest, none of them really care that I now have a 32' vertical antenna in the backyard.
The realy problem lied within the opinion of a single board member who thought it was "ugly" and didn't care what the reasoning was for having it (6BTV originally) erected in the backyard. Thankfully the other 5 board members said it was okay and the exemption was given to me.
So while I am still not pleased to be in an HOA controlled neighborhood I will continue to preach attempting to work with the HOA and neighbors before taking up a completely negative attitude towards them. I do consider myself very lucky to have received the exemption and continue to operate daily. Of course this is still a compromise at best and I cannot wait to move to a better location, one that is not controlled by CC&Rs.
73, Steve W6ONV
PS - Oh as for the XYL, she things the radials lying across the patio are ugly and doesn't like the vertical erected directly out the kitchen window. I guess I can understand that. Unfortunately that was the best place to mount the vertical in order to take advantage of the layout of the backyard. Let's see what she says when I build the 5-band hexbeam.
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by W7LV on September 29, 2009
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FIRST! FIND A RE AGENT WHO IS A LICENSED HAM!!!
SECOND! Read the HOA docs. Thoroughly. If you find them onerous, DON'T SIGN and get your Deposit check back.
I tolerated the HOA BS instead of suing the toads into Food Stamps and refrigerator boxes because I only occupied the property 3 months out of the year.
They tried a sneaky little extra-legal Meeting without notifying me, per by-laws, and I DID sue their Viagra- and Maalox-popping, Depends-wearing old behinds.
Had a custom T-shirt silkscreened which said:
"If you suspect you're bing fed a S*** Sandwich, STOP CHEWING AND SPIT IT OUT!!! THERE IS NO PICKLE ON A S*** SANDWICH!!!"
Would have LOVED to have had a little First Amendment rodeo on that, particularly in front of the Demented Commies on the bench of the Ninth Federal Circuit in San Francisco.
One clown, leaving the HOA meeting, said, "I don't think much of your shirt."
I said, "Really? Well, I won't wear it again."
And I didn't.
Next meeting I wore the one that says "F*** YOU...I Have ENOUGH Friends!"
My irritation with these people is that NONE of the Condo Commandoes of the HOA occupied units in the complex. They had all bought them as Investment Property, many under FHA programs to encourage this, and, when the RE market went soft began renting to Section 8 tenants, thus turning our Complex into a Project.
I found the "hook" in the original financing documents by the Developer, who was using another FHA Subsidy for Rich Guys Program, requiring that no more than 25 per cent if the units be Rental Property.
Along with eight other original Purchasers who were sick of living in the Test Chamber for THUMP-THUMP car stereos and tired of undisciplined children screaming ten and twelve letter curse words under our terraces while throwing basketballs at our patio doors around 0300, we SUED.
We sued the Developer, the GC, the sales company, the HOA, George Washington, the Pope and, for all I know Paul McCartney.
The Developer and the GC (neither of whom could build a set of sawhorses) are now out of business, having tendered their Licenses and taken Chapter 13 about 60 days after we filed. That was in 2004, and the Liability Carriers for the GC, Developer, subcontractors, HOA et al are STILL rebuilding the buildings.
Although I have heard that, with the purge of Section 8 tenants, the number of cars stolen out of the Complex, the value of the exercise machines disappearing from the clubhouse and the volume of poop in the Pool and Spas is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy down, and that the Local COnstabulary visits less than once per week, rather than 4 times per night.
Avoid HOA-controlled property like Death, unless you have the grit, wit and spit to go Medieval, Scorched Earth on them.
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K1HW on September 30, 2009
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Hi,
I moved out of a "Controlled Neighberhood" about two blocks away where the HOA doesn't exist. When I put my antenna up, I told all the neighbers it was a "Homeland Security Communication Device" and no one has asked or said anything since.
Jack
K1HW
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by ZS6DNO on October 1, 2009
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Hi to all in the US.
I could not help but to make a comment from South Africa (ZS) after reading the article. You guys all have the same problems as us in ZS. The HOA in SA are a real pain (read any other word you like) as well . I now have to take down my antennas ( 2x12 element for 144mhz and 2x 12 element for 70cm) courtesy of the neighbours and HOA as I live in what we call a "gated community". We have to live in these communities just to keep the bad guys out so like you guys us hams in SA are just not welcome to put anything unsightly up. You and I may think that a VHF and UHF array is beautiful but to the uninitiated and ignorants , unfortunately they do not do not think the same. There goes my EME, and meteor scatter activities. I am now scouting for a low profile vertical antenna for HF. So if you hear a weak signal at the back of your beam turn it around and it could be me trying to call you through the lousy propagation on HF.
I sympathize and empathize with you in this dilemma.
73 de ZS6DNO
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KI4GKS on October 1, 2009
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I am from Shepherdsville, just South of Louisville. I currently live in Pell City, Alabama. It is an area similar to the Bullitt/Nelson county area south of Louisville.
Four years ago we built a new home in a subdivision that had some fairly rigid restrictions. I discussed my desire to place a amateur radio antenna system on the property when we negotiated the purchase and construction. That an antenna system, tower and beam, be allowed was a prerequisite was documented in the initial deed for the lot and the architectural board approval of the plans. I kept the total tower height below the tree tops (pine trees are tall) and have not had a single adverse remark from any neighbor.
When the opportunity presented itself I volunteered to serve as president of the home owners association. I was elected by a significant majority.
The antenna system I have in place is a universal aluminum tower with a Tennadyne T-11 riding at about 35 feet. I also have a 134 feet Carolina Wyndom stung through the trees. (Look at pictures on QRZ)
Approach the problem head on while negotiating for the property. Given the number of distressed sales that are being made I am sure you can find a realtor that is willing to earn their money by working for you.
Visit Bardstown, one of Kentucky's secret spots.
Good luck,
Ed - KI4GKS
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KD8Z on October 2, 2009
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Kg4wxp, your solution is simple, move here to Palm Bay, Fl. There are no tower restrictions here except an eight foot property line set back, that's it. If this is not an option go to Homes4Hams.com and see what there is for sale in your preferred neighborhood at your preferred price range. I hope this helps.
73
Best Wishes
Good home hunting!
KD8Z
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KD8Z on October 2, 2009
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BTW, I have my home for sale on homes4hams.com in Palm Bay, Fl.
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RE: The HOA alt energy directorate!!!!!!!!!!!!
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by WA2JJH on October 3, 2009
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Some eluded to a very interesting tactic to getting any antenna in.
While these home owner groups may be able to block antenna's, If you want to make the tower dual use........You may be able to beat them.
More alternative energy sources are being built.
Wind ductede/directed turbo fan is the most way to drive a generator.
Like he wind mill, the smaller high tech wind turbins require height above ground.
The rub is this. While installing a 60 foot mast for better 20-80M Inverted V or sloper can be banned.
However if you were to put in a petition for a solar turbine, they look bad to say no.
Even anti-american comes to mind.
In fact the dept of energy is on our side. I saw what a few peolpe did with the self directing fiberblass turbo-fan generator do. They produce far more mechanical energy than a 3 blade fiberglass windmill.
A single turbo produces up to 1kw hour with a 20 MPH wind hits it. A hall/RPM sensor is used to release the turbine head to be steared b the wind.
Our Govt is not going too build bio-deasel converters, wind turbines, new solar panels, and power storage for you.
You can intall the technology and get tax writeoffs untill IT PAYS FOR ITSELF.
I might be in the dark, however I wonder if alt energy towers are in the towns books.
Once you have your generator up. you have a natual structure for an inverted V. Inverted V's are great for dx.
One can also hide a vertical. Off the fiberglass tower. Bury plenty of radials underground. Inside the tower have your current balun. Run a thin wire to the top of the windturbine. Or an american flag pole antenna.
The US GVT is gung ho about people making their own power.
Perhaps installing a tower for a small wind turbine and solar panel will be a HOA legal conflict of interest/law of eminant domain/DOE alternative energy directorate/carbon credit......ANY LAWYERS HERE?????
Say 40 years ago, many OT Hams will tell you that the HAM in the hood was a good person to have. These days there are so many RF services. The town TAXI, security guard radio's, illegal high power FRS. Heck, they sell 10W FM stereo transmitters on ebay for a couple hundred bux. I saw a fully assembled 150W+ class C RF amp for the FM broadcast band.
When not filtered with a triple section PI-L bandpass filter (88-108 mhz). Even though it is FM modulation, you still have a broadbband filth generator.
In NYC, River tide, self directing wind turbine, specialty coated windows are making NYC greener.
Less hydrocarbon pollution, less OPEC oil, many new opportunitys.
Ham Radio Operators were the tinkeres of many new electric/electronic technologies.
PERHAPS PUBLIC RELATIONS THAT HAMS MAY BE THE FIRST NOT TO USE POWER UTILITY POWER. HOA'S...SHMOAH'S.
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RE: The HOA alt energy directorate!!!!!!!!!!!!
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by WA2JJH on October 3, 2009
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rEALLY LIKE THE TEE SHIRT IDEA. A few posts back.
I have heard of folk making big bux, by printing a shirt days after a current event.
Make it funny as heck.
When the shmuck said.....I really do not like your shirt. I would have said...............Who the heck tol
you can be one of my "F===King" fashion consultants.
Then print 40 of the identical shirts. Give them away for free to the local kids.
I would rotate a few different shirts around. The kicker is to wear an NRA hat with the right shirt.
"Guns do not kill people.............PEOPLE KILL GUNS!!! lock-n-load.
I can not recommend this!!!!!. Do not buy Ferric Chloride from Radio Shack. DO NOT POUR 2 BOTTLES WORTH ON A SMALL CORNER OF THE SHMUCKS LAWN.
His entire front lawn will look and smell like love
canal in about 4 days. After he has replaced all the soil in his garden a few times, walk by and say..........Dude, you have a real bad PH condition with your soil.
Ohhhh, BTW.......My Gamma radiation detector jumps off the scale when I drive by your house!!!! What are you doing. Getting paid to bury spent fuel rods?
Can, you introduce me to your high level waste guy?
I want to grow those 8 foot high straw berrys.
I just curve out most of the straw berry. Spray the berry with polyeurothan. I rent it out to some homeless folk. Made a huge fortune selling my strawberry grow a habitat to some burned out hippys.
They got those munchies.....The ate them selfs out of house and home. Get it!!! Punch the guy in the stomach,then say "whats the matter dude, you did not like the "punch line"
The best tee shirt had a good joke on it too.
OK, the JOKE.....DO YOU KNOW WHY THERE WAS NEVER A SINGLE JOKE ABOUT JONESTOWN GUYANA??????
THE PUNCH LINE WOULD BE TOO LONG!!!!!
/
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KB0OLF on October 7, 2009
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Here's my plan of attack should I ever face this situation in the future.
1. Locate a subdivision in a somewhat rural area with an adjacent, that has not been annexed in to the subdivision, ranch or small farm adjacent to at lease one border of the subdivision.
2. Locate a lot / house that has it's back yard bordered by said ranch / farm
3. Prior to "shopping" for said house, contact the owner of said ranch / farm property and inquire about purchasing 500 or so square feet adjacent to the house you wish to purchase.
4. If all works out, purchase house and extra property.
5. use extra property to erect antenna structure.
My logic behind this is that the extra 500+ square feet would be a separate transaction with nothing to do with the home you are purchasing. Since that extra land would be outside of the subdivision boundaries, and presumably not restricted by another other subdivision HOA or CC&R, you're free to do with it that you wish. The subdivision's HOA and CC&R can't touch your extra square footage of land that you purchased in a separate deal. Granted, I'm not an attorney so the idea seems logical, so, feel free to politely correct me if I'm wrong. And yes, I udnerstand the complexity in such a "scheme."
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on October 7, 2009
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KB0OLF:
Your cunning plan has a lot of possibilities. It could even be arranged that the former landowner would lease back the use of the land, or part of it, for farming, etc.
I think most hams would need more than 500 square feet, though. But that's only a detail, it could be an acre if that's what's needed.
There are only two problems:
First, finding a setup that exactly matches the requirements of house-for-sale-next-to-unrestricted-land-that-can-be-subdivided. Such situations may be as hard to find as an unrestricted house.
Second, since the antenna is on another property, the feedlines and control cables would be rather long and would have to cross the property line. While you might own both properties, and bury the cables, I could see the HOA/CC&R folks coming up with all kinds of ways to stop that part of it, such as requiring permits, inspections, plans, not allowing non-utility cables from the community to go off-site, requiring a fence across the back with no gates in it, etc., etc.
Still, a very interesting idea. Would have to get the RE lawyer on it really close to make sure there are no holes.
Here's a variation:
Put a small building on the land (one of those prefab garden/shop sheds, for example) and put the shack in it. You'd need power, but that's about it, since for everything else you'd just walk to the house. Not the most comfortable idea in a very hot or cold climate, but I suspect that in a lot of places it would work. Then you'd really have a "Shack!"
73 de Jim, N2EY
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KC2SMU on October 8, 2009
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Hi everyone,
I enjoyed reading all the commments and the information in them.
I am bound by very restrictive HOA rules.
No antennas attached to building or common areas visable by anyone.
Color of houses have to come from a list.
You can't leave the garage door open except when putting car in or out. (good that I don't have to drive through the door when it is closed)
I became a ham AFTER we got the house so now I'm checking on putting an antenna in the attic. Right now I have a ladder line J-pole hooked to my HT. I just got a 2M/70cm mobile which will be my first "base station".
I am learning a lot about antennas.
73 Jim
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by AB2CD on October 13, 2009
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I don’t understand why many hams feel that a tower is essential in operating a ham radio station. I operate totally stealth from a sub division that has antenna restrictions. I might suggest that good tall trees are something the ham should also be looking for.
Although I have had a great operating experience this is not to say I haven’t had to defend my right to operate. About 10 years ago a neighbor complained about my wire antenna to the HOA. The board came out to look at it only to find there was nothing to see. The neighbor got shot down and that was the end of it until last year about this time. Another neighbor just to be nasty complained of RFI and had found a section in our covenants about generating electromagnetic radiation that “unreasonably” interfered with radio and TV reception in the community. This time the board went so far as to contact their lawyers and concluded I was in violation. I had ten days to respond and spent most of that time researching the subject and formulating a response that would put the HOA in their place and put an end to the entire issue.
All in all, I suppose my reply totaled more than a dozen pages. I basically educated them about FRI and how the FCC looks at it. I also took photos of several consumer electronic devices with their part 95 labels for them to read. I also had letters from two other neighbors (one from the back of my property and the other from the front) who told of never having an interference issue with my station. I included several articles that were published in our neighborhood HOA newsletter praising my work with kids teaching them about ham radio and technology. The bottom line was I prevailed and the neighbor who tried to keep me from operating got shot down. This was a guy who readily came over to ask for and was always given help with his electrical and electronics issues. Now he doesn’t get the time of day.
It’s important to know your rights and be prepared to defend them. HOAs can’t enforce rules that favor one type of electromagnet wave over another. Wireless devices abound and with that so does the radio waves they generate.
Another point worth mentioning is that most HOAs have restrictions against outdoor TV antennas. The FCC has ruled that HOAs cannot keep someone from having an receiving antenna and they don’t single out what kind. Take a drive through any of these neighborhoods and you’ll see TV dishes everywhere in direct violation of most HOA rules.
Jim AB2CD
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on October 14, 2009
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AB2CD: "I don’t understand why many hams feel that a tower is essential in operating a ham radio station. I operate totally stealth from a sub division that has antenna restrictions. I might suggest that good tall trees are something the ham should also be looking for."
The problem is that in many HOA/CC&R situations the no-antennas rules go far beyond "no towers". They are often to the point where NO antenna of ANY kind will be accepted - not a simple vertical, nor a G5RV, nor a random wire. Not even in the back yard or on the roof where it's almost impossible to see.
Tall trees are good to have but many newer developments don't have them, because they were built on farmland.
AB2CD: "It’s important to know your rights and be prepared to defend them. HOAs can’t enforce rules that favor one type of electromagnet wave over another."
Actually, they can. See below.
AB2CD: "Another point worth mentioning is that most HOAs have restrictions against outdoor TV antennas. The FCC has ruled that HOAs cannot keep someone from having an receiving antenna and they don’t single out what kind."
Yes, they do. See below.
AB2CD: "Take a drive through any of these neighborhoods and you’ll see TV dishes everywhere in direct violation of most HOA rules."
That's the result of the OTARD ruling.
Some years back, the satellite TV companies figured out that huge numbers of potential customers were not signing up because of HOA rules and CC&Rs prohibiting antennas.
So they banded together and pursued a court case all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States. IANAL, but as I recall the main argument was that the no-antennas rules effectively created a monopoly for the cable companies and blocked interstate commerce.
The Supremes ruled that an American's right to watch broadcast TV, and to choose the channel, was so basic that it superseded/preempted the no-antennas rules. And FCC was directed to come up with technical rules, which they did.
HOWEVER, the ruling ONLY applies to broadcast TV reception antennas and wireless internet antennas. Nothing else. Also, the size, type, height and placement of the antenna is limited, and it must meet certain necessity and safety criteria.
Worst of all for hams, the antenna cannot be used for anything other than the reception of TV and internet service. Even FM broadcast radio isn't covered.
Look up "Otard" on the FCC website and you'll see how they carefully limit the preemption and specifically exclude ham radio antennas.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KB9OPW on October 17, 2009
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I agree, I just was able to install a modest 40' tower and beam antenna, I did have to get a variance for height but to my surprise the city zoning board was very good, they had no problems. But they had in mind a ham in another neighborhood that put up a 60+' tower with guy wires streatched over the sidewalks where one would have to duck to get under them....therefore city codes. It only takes one. You being in a condo, do you have access to an attic? I have very good luck with a slinky antenna which covers 6m thru 80m in my attic.
73,
Mark
KB9OPW
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by K4JF on October 20, 2009
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Wish a ham were looking in my neighborhood. I have a home for sale on a densely wooded hilltop, no antenna restrictions, at the edge of a subdivision. Had a 40ft tower and tribander up and ran a full gallon with no problems. >sigh< still for sale......
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by KF7CG on October 21, 2009
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HOAs are anti_anything that they set their mind to and with unresoned zeal. Witness, the problem in a %%+ community that ocurred when a retired couple wound up in a Grand Child emergency. It was on the news this AM 10/21/2009.
Needless to say I wouldn't live in that community if I were paid to, and all my radio towers and operation approved!
Total contract law mentallity, If they didn't want to be excluded from the care of their grand daughter they shouldn't have bought here 10 years ago. The couple in trouble can't sell their home for enough to move, in fact they haven't been able to sell so far (I wonder why?), so it looks as if their grand daughter goes to state foster care.
I know this was HaM Radio related, but it sure explains some HOA communities.
KF7CG
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RE: The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by N2EY on October 22, 2009
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KF7CG writes: "Witness, the problem in a [55]+ community that ocurred when a retired couple wound up in a Grand Child emergency."
I saw that!
They want to evict a six-year-old who lives with her grandparents (who are also her legal guardians). The child lives there because the mother is a drug addict. Nothing about the father in the story I saw but I suspect he's either dead or as unsuitable as the mother.
The HOA went to court, using homeowner funds, to get the child evicted. If the HOA wins, the kid may wind up in foster care.
IANAL, but why isn't this a case of age discrimination? If a developer tried to build a "community" that banned people who weren't the right gender/color/ethnicity/religion, it would be struck down as discrimination. So why is it OK to exclude people under a certain age?
(Maybe there should be a condo development called "Logans Run" where you have to be under a certain age...)
"Needless to say I wouldn't live in that community if I were paid to, and all my radio towers and operation approved!"
I hope we always have that choice.
"Total contract law mentallity, If they didn't want to be excluded from the care of their grand daughter they shouldn't have bought here 10 years ago."
Yep - except the grandchild didn't exist 10 years ago!
"The couple in trouble can't sell their home for enough to move, in fact they haven't been able to sell so far (I wonder why?), so it looks as if their grand daughter goes to state foster care."
Only if the court so rules. Maybe they'll get a judge who has some common sense.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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The HOA and Anti-Antenna Mindset
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by W8LV on October 22, 2009
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Sometimes, when dealing with busy-body neighbors on any subject of what you are doing on your own property, over and above all, a polite "If you make any sort of trouble for me, I will without question or hesitation and no matter what the consequences are to me personally I will absolutely kick your ass" statement can also be helpful.
This statement can and should be made politely, after a handshake.
You will be surprised how many busy bodies will move on to their next "crisis" in the neighborhood which won't involve you.
Dealing with an "Association"? Perhaps you were lucky enough to be bullied by a larger group of kids in grade school? In that case, if you have lived to read these words, you have learned that kicking the "leader" ass of the group is especially helpful. This you have found in the schoolyard so many years ago scatters the "association" of bullies rather quickly!
NEVER appease a bully, ever! Yes, we try to be polite, we try to mind our own business, we try to get along the best that we can, and of course, we don't go looking for trouble. We try to be good members of the community.
But sometimes people really want to spoil your joy, your pursuit of happiness, just because YOU are having a good time, and, unfortunately, THEIR idea of having a good time is do destroy yours.
Taking away your amateur radio antenna is tantamount to cutting off your air.
NEVER appease an Antenna Nazi, ever.
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