A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
Robin Finesmith (AA3NJ)
on
October 10, 2009
View comments about this article!
I came across an interesting web site dedicated to explaining state and federal incentives for installing solar power generating facilities, such as solar panels. It is interesting that in some states, HOA restrictive covenants are either totally or partially invalidated for such installations.
The web site (
http://www.dsireusa.org/solar/) has a clickable map of the USA. Click on a state and scroll to the bottom of the page. You will see (depending on the state) a topic called "Solar Access Law/Guidelines" where easements and access laws are described.
If you wanted to take the risk, you could offer your neighbors the option of seeing a REALLY hugh set of solar collectors on your roof and lawn, or approving a nice little yagi on a non-imposing crank-up tower.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by W9PMZ on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Green talks, ham radio walks...
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by PD2JHP on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Hello,
This sounds like blackmail, not a gentle way to handle....
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KB2DHG on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Thanks for the thought but it does not sound like a good idea.
I got permission by giving a presentation and assurance that there will be NO perminant damage to the condo, there will be NO interference, and the antenna will be as stealth as possable. NO I did not get a tower and beam up but with compromize, I was able to put up a full size G5RV and a 2 meter vertical.
I met all the criteier, and have been working on the air with good results.
It was a lot of work and convincing but if you are good about it and courtious you can get results...
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by HFRF on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
This is ridiculous. If you don't want to adhere to what you signed in your HOA, then stop signing these agreements. Man, is this getting old. I don't give a crap that all you people with HOA's can't put up antennas. Is it so hard to buy a house where there are no restrictions? You are making a conscience choice to get yourself in a mess. And if your wife wants a house with a HOA, you chose her too. Stop doing this stuff. Your life will be so much easier.
|
| |
|
Just giving them a choice - that's all.
|
|
|
by AI2IA on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Look at it this way, AA3NJ's suggestion offers more opportunities than you may realize. A creative mind can work it to advantage for ham antennas.
For instance, if you see that your HOA can't do anything about solar power panels on the roof or elsewhere, you can offer them an alternative such as this:
" I am considering two ideas for my home, but my budget is only big enough for one. I would either like to put up X number of solar panels (give them the maximum allowable number), or instead I would like to put up a single amateur radio antenna that would look like this (show them the most flattering photo of what you would like). Ask them which project they would prefer."
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K2FOX on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I also have to agree with HFRF...when we purchased our home I researched the "tower" question long before signing on the dotted line.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K9CTB on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I sorta have to agree with the majority here. Trending is going away from the socialist little communes with their fees and their "everybody in everybody else's business" stuff. Once you've signed, you're screwed, so let the real estate salesman know up front you don't want any part of it. Leave the communes for the geriatric set. There are plenty of real houses without the socialism available - especially today! You'll just have to mow your own lawn!
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K0BG on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Everybody is on the "green" bandwagon, and in most cases, going off half cocked! Although the site referred to does have some information worth knowing, the biggest bugaboo isn't covered in depth; tax liabilities.
In far too many localities, adding solar anything to your property, will increase the tax base. In most cases, this means that amortization of the cost can never be realized. In other words, it isn't worth the initial effort.
Using some sort of solar project to hide an amateur antenna is an act of pure desperation, and borders on... Well you get the picture.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WY3X on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I sent an idea for a "concept" antenna to a major antenna manufacturer, but haven't heard back from them. That was around two months ago. I guess they don't plan on implementing my idea- so here it is, I'm throwing it out to the amateur community-at-large. Do with it what you will, or don't do anything with it. I'm not in an HOA, so it doesn't affect me one way or the other. Don't whine that it won't work, it will.
1. Closely examine just about any outdoor VHF TV antenna. Not UHF, but strictly VHF. You will note that it has elements on the boom for (as low as) channel 2. They're not all that short.
2. Federal OTARD laws allows you to, against the wishes of your HOA, to install a TV antenna up to 12 feet above the peak of your roof.
3. You MUST prove that you are picking up a TV channel NOT PROVIDED on their supplied cable system. As many sub-channels as there are on today's digital TV stations, in many cases, this is not hard to do.
4. Your HOA has 30 days to provide you with that channel AFTER you put up your TV antenna. If they fail to provide it within 30 days on the cable system, you're home free and never have to take down your antenna! If they DO provide it within 30 days, just pick ANOTHER channel they're not providing. If, eventually, you can't find a channel they're not providing, your HOA is required to pay to have your TV antenna system removed, NOT YOU!!!
5. Requiring you to get permission to install the TV antenna system is ILLEGAL! They cannot require you to ask permission, OR require you to get any type of a permit prior to installing it. To do so, according to the FCC, causes "unreasonable delay".
6. I doubt any HOA warmonger is going to be able to tell any difference between RG-6 and RG-8-mini. If they hire a consultant, you might wind up having to use RG-6 as your feedline to look completely legit. Once the wire is inside your house, do you really think they would get a search warrant and have you investigated to see if your wire runs to a TV or to a radio?
Now, the last key to the puzzle is getting a TV-sized antenna to tune up on the band you want to work. I'll leave that part up to you. Of course, 2M and 440 would be a snap. You'd be restricted to horizontal polarization, of course. Maybe after it's been in the air awhile, you might get away with installing a 19" and 6" piece of 1/4" aluminum rod vertically on top of the boom, and it probably would go unnoticed.
I have not patented my idea, and all standard legal disclaimers apply (if you try it and get into legal trouble and wind up getting sued, it's not my fault!).
Use the law to your advantage. I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I can see, your HOA would have no recourse if you went this path. No HF unless you loaded the bejeezus out of the elements. You might get reasonable coverage on 10M. And I HIGHLY suggest you keep the power level reasonable and not interfere with your neighbor's TVs! There are actually some pretty strange looking TV antennas, and you might be able to work a useable design from that angle also. I think the key to this idea is making it look like an ordinary TV antenna.
73, and best of luck to you! -KR4WM
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AI2IA on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I do have an appreciation and understanding of some folks who are living in HOA communities. There are some who discovered the pleasures and value of amateur radio after they had moved into these gulags. There are others who saw HOAs as the best that their financial situation could afford, or because of handicaps and convenience. In any case, to put them down simply for where they live is mean-spirited. These folks are not just whining, they are looking for some solutions to their situation in regard to ham radio in their homes. They know full well that they will never have even near optimum conditions until or unless they get out of their situation.
Continued discussions of attempts to offer them a little help is perfectly in keeping with the true ham spirit.
How many times do we have to come back to Paul Segal's Amateur's Code?
"Friendly ... slow and patient when requested; friendly advice and counsel to the beginner; kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit."
Be greater than you seem. Be friendly. Offer a positive suggestion, if you can.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KE5LDO on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Watch that stuff about geriatric set..we are hams,too!
Or should we surrender our equipment when we get to a certain age?
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
What a ridiculous "article". Count me with with HFRF on this one. Using blackmail to strong-arm your way out of an agreement you signed in good faith is morally reprehensible and shows a significant lack of integrity. Such in-your-face tactics to violate a personal commitment (the agreement you signed) is hardly a great way to represent ham radio to the community.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N0YXB on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I like it. If nothing else, this is good info about alternative energy. As energy prices rise, which they will over time, many of us will want to do something proactive. I don't see the harm in adding a disguised antenna when one installs solar panels. Sounds like a perfectly devious idea to me. And too bad if some are tired of hearing about HOAs. Apparently it has it not occurred to you that there are those who become hams after they already live in a HOA property. Robin is offering a strategy that may help them.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AI2IA on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AB7E considers this blackmail? What a confused mind!
There is no blackmail here. The ham gives the HOA a choice, do you want solar panels or do you want a solitary, reasonable antenna? How is that blackmail?
The ham is not hiding anything here. The ham is not offering anythink unlawful. I bellieve, AB7E, that if you suddenly found yourself forced by financial circumstances to live in a HOA community, that you would somehow see things much differently.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N3WAK on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I am newly licensed after a hiatus of 32 years. It's not honorable, but I've decided to pretty much ignore the apparent restrictions imposed by the CC&Rs where I live. I live where I do in order to be close to where my kids live...so, as a practical matter, my choice of neighborhoods was somewhat limited. After I bought the house, I decided I wanted to get back into ham radio...and to use something more than an HT.
In fact, I put up my 75/40 meter segmented 1/2 wave inverted vee earlier today. I say "apparent restrictions" because the document is so poorly and ambiguously written that it may not actually prohibit antennas...although I suspect that was the drafter's intention. Accordingly, I recommend that all HOA-challenged hams very closely read the "restrictions" that supposedly apply. It may be the language is very unclear, and you may be able to legitimately argue that your antenna is actually not prohibited. Give it a try!
Too, I recommend that you simply try to be a good neighbor. I am using a 30' flagpole as the mast for my antenna, and have received many supportive comments about the flagpole and the US flag I fly. I purchased marine RG-213 coax, so the coax blends in with the white fiberglass of the flagpole. I may also take the antenna down during the day, which is fairly easily done.
Lastly, I have volunteered to serve on our just-forming HOA. As the HOA can approve deviations from the CC&Rs, it might just be that some of my fellow board members will gladly approve an exception to the rules once they get to know me. You might give this a try, too! It's pretty hard to say "no" to a friend and fellow board member, especially when you've first educated these colleagues about the public service aspect of ham radio.
Good luck with your own endeavors! 73, Tony
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KG4DGF on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I dont know why anyone writes articles for eham, every article i have seen gets flamed.
The fact of the matter is not everyone can choose to live in a non HOA community. What if the XYL wants to live there, does HFHF suggest you divorce her over radio? I think people need to realize that they don't understand everyone's situation, and some people really just need to let it go. People are gonna live in HOA communities, it happens, because radio isn't the priority in their life. Does that mean they are less deserving to be on the airways? Because you choose to live in an HOA district so your kids can go to a better school does that disqualify your privileges?
HOAs are an abomination to the American way. They go against the freedoms that this nation provides. Frankly i find them intolerable and will do my best to never live in one. However it may not always be an option. And frankly i wont plan my life around HOAs and give them the satisfaction of controlling my life trying to avoid them.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K8QV on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
People are gonna live in HOA communities, it happens, because radio isn't the priority in their life. Does that mean they are less deserving to be on the airways?
Yes, because it was their choice. The decision to move there was made to optimize areas other than the radio hobby. Not a necessarily wrong or right choice, but their choice nevertheless.
Every choice has consequences. Accept that fact and enjoy whatever it is that a regimented suburbia does have to offer.
Of course endless whining is always nice too.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AI2IA: "I believe, AB7E, that if you suddenly found yourself forced by financial circumstances to live in a HOA community, that you would somehow see things much differently."
No matter what reason, financial or otherwise, that forced me to live in an HOA community would not cause me to so blatantly violate a contract I had knowing agreed to. People are forced to make decisions and commitments every day, but only those without integrity do so with the intent of simply ignoring them.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AC5WO on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
HFRF wrote: "This is ridiculous. If you don't want to adhere to what you signed in your HOA, then stop signing these agreements. Man, is this getting old. I don't give a crap that all you people with HOA's can't put up antennas. Is it so hard to buy a house where there are no restrictions?"
It is difficult to find a subdivision built since the CB boom more than a generation ago that doesn't include some restrictions on outdoor antennas. In newer cities that means most houses come with antenna restrictions. It theory I would agree with private land use restrictions, but in practice language excluding outdoor antennas gets blindly put into all new developments. Wouldn't hams provide more resilient backup emergency communications if they were spread out among most neighborhoods?
Rather than find a loophole in a contract already signed, I'd like to see Hams focus on making new subdivisions more ham friendly. I'd like to see the boilerplate language that restricts outdoor antennas include some type of limited exemption for licensed Amateur Radio stations that would specifically allow thin wire and mobile whip type antennas to be mounted high enough off the ground to work well. Physics REQUIRES RF currents in a conductor placed a certain distance away from the ground and obstructions to get a desirable radiation pattern, but those conductors can be thin enough to be almost invisible from the street.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K7LA on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
ATTN: HOA residents.
Consider operating mobile.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K9MHZ on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AA3NJ.....
Are you really thinking about risking to become the most despised person in your neighborhood for a friggin' hobby? Do you have a family that maybe you should be thinking about as well?
Why don't you try and become friends with your neighbors and work with them; you might find that they're not so bad after all. A backyard BBQ works wonders.
Good grief.
Brad
K9MHZ
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WI7B on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
On a completely different note.
Why do you think your neighbors would choose a crank-up tower OVER low-profile, roof-installed solar panels?
That doesn't make any sense that they would. Solar panels actually look pretty cool.
73,
---* Ken
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AI2IA on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"The ham gives the HOA a choice, do you want solar panels or do you want a solitary, reasonable antenna?" This is what I posted. - AI2IA
Now, AB7E, presuming that some law gives this ham the right to put up solar panels, and hopefully the HOA is repulsed at that idea, the ham offers them a choice, he will put up maximum allowable solar panels, or with their approval he puts up a solitary unobtrusive ham antenna.
Now can you explain to me how giving the HOA this choice violates anyone'w moral integrity and the law of contracts? What do you find objectionable in that?
You amaze me! Please explain.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K8AC on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
The reality of the situation is that the existence of a law protecting your right to erect solar panels doesn't mean the HOA can't take you to court over them. It may mean that they would ultimately lose, but it will be an expensive win for you. One thing everyone who lives under HOA restrictions should do is to find out just how big their war chest is. Many HOAs don't have a surplus of funds to pursue legal action, so while they may threaten it, they may not be in a position it.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K9MHZ on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Absolutely! They can drag you into court, put liens against your property, you name it. The burden (cost) is then on your shoulders to clear it up, and the real bonus is that part of your HOA dues went to taking these actions against you.
The ARRL (OK, please don't reply with something League-hating....let's stay on topic) themselves always preface any advice on HOA conflicts with "the best course of action is to first work with your neighbors."
I don't know why some insist on a nuclear option in matters like these, knowing that they have some FCC rule or a law on their side, but ruin the quality of their, and their innocent family's, personal lives in the process.
Smile for a change....try being a good ambassador....you may surprise yourself in the process.
Best,
Brad
K9MHZ
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KC2WI on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
In many cases you could put up a stealth antenna that might never be noticed. It might not be ideal but it would be better than nothing. I do not have any restrictions but I have done a lot of experimentation with field expedient antennas. In my back yard I have set up an AH-4 tuner with about 50 of wire from the tuner sloping up to about 25 feet, held up by a line thrown over a convenient tree branch, and a counterpoise wire on the ground. This antenna can be put up or taken down in 5 minutes. If you have suitable trees or other supports you could use an inverted L configuration. If you use small gauge wire this would be just about invisible, especially if you have a fence or trees or bushes around the yard. If you have friendly neighbors that's even better. The neighborhood busybodies won't see anything from the street. I have compared this antenna with my G5RV at 35 feet and sometimes there is not much difference. If you can get a longer and/or higher wire it would be even better. If you don't want to spring for a tuner you can cut the radiating wire to 1/4 wavelength for your favorite band and it should work. If I were in restricted community I would first investigate the rules and also determine how friendly or unfriendly the HOA was. If there was any risk of getting a 'no' answer I'd just not say anything and go with the stealth antenna.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Sell, get away from the CC&Rs and HOA, and enjoy the Blessings of Liberty for Ourselves and our Posterity.
Sounds familiar, somehow. ;-)
So far, at least, there isn't anyplace in America that does not have the option to live without the burden of restrictions.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KA3JLW on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Easy - we just need a solar panel that rotates and has about 10db gain on the HF bands. How hard can that be?
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N6RK on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"Using blackmail to strong-arm your way out of an agreement you signed in good faith ... "
Just to clarify something about "signing".
The HOA and CC&R's "run with the property".
The HOA doesn't need to get your signature
or even notify you ahead of time about the HOA/CC&R's.
The only thing you sign is a purchase agreement
WITH THE SELLER. There is nothing you sign
where the HOA is the other party.
Rick N6RK
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K7CB on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I DON'T agree with HFRF on this. Some of you have no clue what some areas like. In some locations, it is nearly impossible to find a neighborhood without HOAs. If you don't believe me, I don't really care. Those who do live in such areas know what I'm talking about and will agree with me.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N9XCR on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I'd rather not find myself in that situation to begin with. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I didn't have a choice and ended up in said situation. I'd rather work nicely with my neighbors or work on something completely stealth than try to strong-arm them in such a fashion.
Besides, working stealth has its advantages. Say you do cause interference... nobody will know where the hell it's coming from! :)
Chris
N9XCR
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by HFRF on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
This topic gets more ridiculous as more posts are added. It sounds like people who buy property with HOA's attached have to justify it or have some good excuse. No you don't. But if you buy with a HOA attached, your life is going to be controlled by some kind of board. Get used to it. Its your choice. You can't have it both ways. Its sounds like some of you think you can have it both ways with creative antennas. Go ahead. But don't give everybody bs that you are FORCED to buy a HOA controlled property. NO you aren't. Why can't you people take responsibility that you are making choices. And this crap that there are no HOA free properties where you want to live is BS. You just don't want to live in the non HOA area for whatever reason.
I lived in a condo for 10 years controlled by crazy people. Never again. I will sleep in my car before I will live in controlled and managed housing unit.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 10, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
N6RK: "The only thing you sign is a purchase agreement
WITH THE SELLER. There is nothing you sign
where the HOA is the other party."
No offense meant, Rick, but that's just semantics. You are given (or at least are supposed to be given) a copy of the HOA restrictions when you sign the sales agreement. Whether the HOA or the seller is the other name on the contract doesn't seem to me to make much difference ... the sale was made with the restrictions apparent.
And if anyone blindly buys a home in an area where they know there are HOA restrictions in force and they don't bother to read them ... well, they don't much have my sympathy. Don't get me wrong ... I agree that most HOA's are staffed by self-important nazis with abuse of power issues, and I think many HOA restrictions are ludicrous.
There are even lots of studies on human honesty and integrity that conclude people tend to be morally ambivalent about adhering to commitments they explicitly made which they feel are unfair. I just don't agree with that mentality. It seems to me that honoring a commitment is a matter of personal integrity. If people move into a neighborhood with the understanding that they won't put up a tower, they shouldn't put up a tower.
73,
Dave AB7E
|
| |
|
A HOA is a business entity.
|
|
|
by AI2IA on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
There is a difference between business and religion.
A HOA is not a religious body and a Restricted Right Community Contract is not a sacred oath.
A member has every right to hire an attorney who will read the civil contract and attempt to wring out every last wiggle room he can on behalf of that member. Civil contracts are merely a matter of civil law, not solemn and holy aggreements with curses on the integrity of those who even so much as think about "violating" them. Vy 73, Ray AI2IA
To guote President Calvin Coolidge, "The business of America is business."
"There are even lots of studies on human honesty and integrity that conclude people tend to be morally ambivalent about adhering to commitments they explicitly made which they feel are unfair. I just don't agree with that mentality. It seems to me that honoring a commitment is a matter of personal integrity. If people move into a neighborhood with the understanding that they won't put up a tower, they shouldn't put up a tower.
73,
Dave AB7E
Dave, when the time comes for you and you are up to your a___ in legal alligators, you and the attorney you hire to defend your rights will use every lawful means at your disposal to win. We are a nation of laws and not a nation of impractical overly sensitive folks who are manipulated by sly preachers. Religion and integrity are real, but there is a line between common sense and non-sense. Please don't take this as a personal atack, but the ideas you offer here are either extremely naive or possibly insincere. I prefer to credit you with the former rather than the latter. I don't see another way to put it.
|
| |
|
RE: A HOA is a business entity.
|
|
|
by KG4RUL on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
From the covenants in my subdivision:
"These convents are to run with the land and shall be binding on all parties and all persons claiming under them until January 1, 2005. Thereafter, said convents shall automatically renew for successive 10-year periods unless by vote of a majority of the then owners of the lots it is agreed to change said covenants in whole or in part."
So, if you buy in this subdivision, the covenants are part of your deed and you are bound by them. The ONLY recourse is to elect to remove them by majority vote.
Now for the fly in the ointment. As stated above, 1 January 2005 was the cutoff day to have the vote. Per the County, the only one who legally can call for a vote is the Association. The Association refused to call a vote. Catch 22!
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AA8X on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Sounds like a great idea. Anything you can do to go around the little Nazis controlling how you live your life is good.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by W4VR on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
There are plenty of affordable properties that don't have antenna restrictions...you simply have to try a little harder to find one. I've had 8 homes in the past 40 years and never owned one that dis-allowed radio towers. My wife always did the searching, and by golly she did a wonderful job of finding properties without restrictive covenants.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WA1RNE on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"If you wanted to take the risk, you could offer your neighbors the option of seeing a REALLY hugh set of solar collectors on your roof and lawn, or approving a nice little yagi on a non-imposing crank-up tower."
>>> OK, lets play this out. You offer your "deal" to the HOA.
Scenario 1:
They might go for the tower but will likely restrict the height and size of the antenna. How are you going to deal with that on a daily basis?
i.e. 30' crank up tower with a list of restrictions, such as height and size of the antenna and a requirement to crank it down when not in use or during storms. Tower and antenna systems are expensive items. Could you justify the expense and be restricted to limited use? Personally, I could not.
Scenario 2:
They call your bluff and say, sure put up the solar collector. There's a high probability they will go along with the collector because:
Most are fairly low profile devices that install just a few inches off the surface of the roof.
Most postage stamp condo lots can't accommodate a large solar panel installation. In doing so, you would likely restrict physical access to your own property - and they know that.
Either way, do you think most hams will get what they want? I don't think so. You may push for scenario 1 or 2 but in the end, your "take it or leave it" style deal might alienate you and your family from your neighbors.
I look at antenna restrictions this way: Years ago before large condo's and HOA developments were common place, hams could install just about do whatever they wanted. People who didn't live in cities generally had more land and there wasn't a lot of push-back from cities and towns for granting a permit. Some hams installed their towers without a permit and got a way with it. Things are obviously different today - but not if you choose property w/o CC&R's. There are many towns in Massachusetts with residential CC&R's that restrict what you can PARK on your property, i.e., no boats. Just the standard ordinances that affect all residents limit the amount of unregistered vehicles you can park on your property.
The ARRL is attempting to push HR 2160 through to circumvent HOA's under the umbrella of Emergency Communications requirements and IMO, it's going to fail.
Why? Simple...most people are not hams and could care less about our recreational activities - especially in this economy.
...WA1RNE
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KT0DD on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
HFRF... yes, in many areas it IS very hard to find a home that is liveable without HOA's / Covenants...unless you don't mind your neighbors dealing drugs 24/7.
No one yet has ever given me an adequate reason to justify the existence of an HOA's ability to tell someone what you can or cannot do on YOUR OWN PROPERTY. If I'm the one paying the MORTGAGE and PROPERTY TAXES, then no one else should have the right to tell me what I can do on my property as long as it doesn't violate any city, county, state or federal laws & ordinances.
The emergence of HOA's could have been made unnecessary if local law enforcment agencies hadn't become apathetic, and had enforced ordinances that were already in place.
73, KT0DD
|
| |
|
RE: A HOA is a business entity.
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AI2IA: "Civil contracts are merely a matter of civil law, not solemn and holy agreements with curses on the integrity of those who even so much as think about "violating" them."
Somehow I don't exclude the concept of integrity from civil agreements, but apparently you and many others here do. I guess that's what gives lawyers job security, but I can't think of any other positive aspect of it.
AI2IA: " ... the ideas you offer here are either extremely naive or possibly insincere."
Possibly, but I am intelligent enough to judge who is trustworthy and who is not, and who can be counted on to fulfill their commitment based upon their word without having a lawyer and 20 pages of registered paperwork to enforce it. I have 30+ years of business experience, including establishing two offshore joint ventures (one where I wrote the contract) to back that up. You decide which side of that ledger you fall.
For what it may be worth, I have observed MANY other such collaborative business ventures fail, not because they were financially non-viable, but because the two parties couldn't trust each other. Anyone who has ever participated in a successful joint venture (in any environment, not just business) will tell you that it is impossible to anticipate every possible problem in a contract, and that your only hope is that you can trust the other party to hold up his/her end.
However, I think the truly naive aspect of this entire thread is that anyone is even going to attempt this gambit, or that it would be likely to succeed. As a point for discussion it has been interesting, and I've honestly been surprised at some of the attitudes displayed here, but as a practical strategy I think it is pretty foolish.
Dave AB7E
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K9MHZ on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KT0DD.....
Law enforcement shouldn't be burdened with making sure you don't have a speed boat parked in your front lawn or a washing machine on your front porch. It would be an absurd waste of taxpayer's dollars to require them to do so.
You have the right to enjoy your property as you wish, so long as you don't infringe on the rights of others to enjoy theirs as well. Merely paying a mortgage and taxes isn't enough....you can't deface your property....there are LOTS of civil laws on the books concerning this, over and above any HOA restrictions.
When you sign a HOA, you give up certain rights, in exchange for the assurance that your neighbor won't put in a dog kennel in his back yard for example. It's not just a ham antenna-hating conspiracy. Where that leaves each of us is to: A) not move into a HOA-restricted home, or B) working WITH our neighbors/HOAs to come up with a solution.
Putting up a solar array is a mind-boggling idea.
Best,
Brad
K9MHZ
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N6RK on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
A related story may be of interest. Today's Sacramento Bee (Oct 11, page A8) picked up a New York Times story about state laws that overturn HOA restrictions on clotheslines. This has potential! Put up a wire antenna and call it a clothesline. The story has a comment from a typical snotty real estate broker claiming she couldn't see a house because the neighbor had a clothesline. Give me a break. The story also talks about the solar panel situation.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KD7YVV on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
No one yet has ever given me an adequate reason to justify the existence of an HOA's ability to tell someone what you can or cannot do on YOUR OWN PROPERTY. If I'm the one paying the MORTGAGE and PROPERTY TAXES, then no one else should have the right to tell me what I can do on my property as long as it doesn't violate any city, county, state or federal laws & ordinances.
The emergence of HOA's could have been made unnecessary if local law enforcement agencies hadn't become apathetic, and had enforced ordinances that were already in place.
That has got to be one of the best things I've seen on this forum.
I have to agree, if I'm the one paying the mortgage, the
taxes and the deed says I own the property, then I would
never let neighbors tell me what I can and can't do.
As far as I'm concerned, I bought it, I paid for it,
it's mine.
I'm not saying to be a total ass to your neighbors,
but they need to realize that your place is your place
and that's the end of it.
I'd never let a neighbor tell me what I can and can't
do on my own property.
It's just me, but if a neighbor has a problem and
comes to me in a civil manner, I'll do my best to help.
Come to me with a holier than thou my crap don't
stink I am better than you attitude, and I can
guarantee with 100% certainly that you'll be solidly
kicked off my property and you'll have a bootprint
on your ass to show for it.
I don't mind listening to my neighbors concerns and
addressing them, but I'm no better than anyone else
and no one is better than me. Got a question, ask!
And that's just how it is.
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KD8BKB on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
HFRH yes it is actually hard to buy a house in my area with out an HOA of some sort. I even looked at placing a double wide trailer on a couple acres and it is not cheaper. i found one housing area that did not have any restrictiond that had homes in the price range i could afford only if i won the lotto. that is a huge point here we dont have the option to sign these HOA's and restricted living areas. one development said you had to have X number of shrubs from a certain class of bush and how they had to be cut. where i live and have been looking to buy a house i have found one in a 3 county area.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AI8P on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
A number of you have stated that you are not lawyers, and that is pretty easy to believe from your statements here.
It is not necessarily true that people who live in HOA voluntarily agreed to them when they bought.
You can buy a house with no HOA, and most places allow a majority of people in your location to FORM an HOA after you live there. All it takes is a majority vote of the people in the neighborhood. This has happened to people I know. The newly-formed HOA generally has just as much authority to regulate your life as if they existed already when you moved in.
I live in an older neighborhood with no HOA. There is nothing keeping my neighbors from forming an HOA and dictating how I live my life.
So, before you get up on your high horse and condemn people for being so stupid as to buy in an HOA, consider that they might have very carefully avoided buying in an HOA, only to have one formed around them after the fact. You yourself could be in an HOA in the future. So let's be a little less distainful and a little more helpful here!
de Dennis AI8P
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AI8P: "So, before you get up on your high horse and condemn people for being so stupid as to buy in an HOA, consider that they might have very carefully avoided buying in an HOA, only to have one formed around them after the fact."
Yup ... that would be unfair and very upsetting, but none of the hams griping about their HOA's here on this forum have claimed to have had that happen to them. Most admitted to signing the agreement with full knowledge of its restrictions.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AI8P on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Dude,
A fully rationalized high horse is still a high horse.
Hope to hear you on the bands!
de AI8P
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KA8OCN on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I think its a great idea! Anything to stop people from telling you what to do with your own property.
I must say that I always read something before I sign it (Unlike our politicians) so I don't have that problem, just have to make the XYL happy (or at least not unhappy)
I only have 13 antennas with 3 towers.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AI2IA on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I am somewhat surprised by the position taken by AB7E in this thread, and it has been interesting. I have no hostility toward him or his views about the integrity aspect (if there is such a thing) to HOA contracts.
I do wonder, and perhaps he will tell us, if he has any connections or associations with HOAs such as being a board member of one, or benefiting in any way by association with one.
Anyone with business experience knows full well that HOA contracts are no different than insurance policies when it comes to integrity. In all contracts what the large print giveth, the small print taketh away. Indeed, the very purpose of a written contract is to take the element of trust out of any deal. It comes down to the letter of the law.
Integrity and such are very lofty terms, so is honor, but when it comes to money, it comes down to "In God We Trust. All others pay cash." You don't have to like that. You just have to live with that reality. It is good to have high moral principles, but it is better to always keep in mind that many other people don't. This nation was founded upon the very best political principles, and that is why we are a nation of laws and not of trust in men.
So with HOAs, any contract can be challenged.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
AI2IA: "I do wonder, and perhaps he <AB7E> will tell us, if he has any connections or associations with HOAs such as being a board member of one, or benefiting in any way by association with one."
I have no association whatever with any HOA, and never have. I hate them myself and don't know anyone who likes them. The closest brush I ever had with an HOA was in 1980 when I bought a new home in a new subdivison and the sales contract laid out restrictions (including for antennas) to be ratified and enforced by an HOA yet to be established. The residents never established said HOA, though, so it became a moot issue. I never put put a tower there, but I made sure that I would be able to when I bought the lot I now live on.
AI2IA: "This nation was founded upon the very best political principles, and that is why we are a nation of laws and not of trust in men."
Silly me. And here I thought that included contracts.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K5END on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Legally, I understand that neighborhood covenants usually fall into the category known as "adhesion" or "adhesive" contracts. Adhesion contracts are usually written entirely by one of the parties without negotiation with the second party.Adhesion contracts are usually written entirely for the benefit, interest or purposes of the first party and without consideration for the protection of the second party.
It is not realistic to say that anything other than a small portion of the working U.S. population has the choice to not live in a restricted area without experiencing a hardship. Therefore, adhesion contracts abound.
However, HOA's are weakening in the courts and enjoy less and less legal credibility daily. Too many have abused their power, and they are losing lawsuits more frequently. At least that is what I have observed in the area where I live.
In Harris County there is the infamous case in 2001 through 2002 of an HOA seizing the home of an octogenarian widow and evicting her forcibly by use of law enforcement. Deputy constables kicked the widow out and had her furniture confiscated.
The plaintiff's damages were $814 in unpaid HOA dues (which in fact she had paid already) yet the house was valued around $150,000 (which at the time in Harris County was an upper middle class figure for a house.) How is that fair? The house was sold at auction for $5,000.
In subsequent litigation by the victim,the HOA lost part of it in court and settled out of court for the rest of it. She got her house back plus $300,000 in damages. The HOA lost a lot of money in the deal. It was also revealed that the HOA was charging far more for dues than their own bylaws allowed. Homeowners in the community also filed a class-action lawsuit against the HOA contemporaneously with the widow's suit.
Here are links to some of the details for those who find this post incredible.
http://recenter.tamu.edu/pdf/1560.pdf
http://www.ccfj.net/Txforeclscam2.htm
Needless to say, it's worth getting a lawyer and taking the HOA to court if and when you the homeowner feels the treatment is unfair or unreasonable.
As the legality of the situation was explained to me by a lawyer and personal friend (who is now a judge in the same county) adhesion contracts can be challenged in court and should be challenged if unfair. Agreement to something without choice or negotiation is not always a binding or fair agreement and the victim need not be concerned about his "moral" adherence to an unfair contract for which he was unable to negotiate.
To those who suggest not moving into an area with covenant agreements and restrictions, I challenge them to find such a location in the greater Houston area that has running water and sanitary sewer.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WA7KGX on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
If one used distilled water in the solar collector perhaps the collector itself could be the antenna.
Perhaps the solar collector needs a quarter wavelength high lightning rod or two.
Or, solar cells mounted on the south facing side of a tower....
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K9MHZ on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Dennis,
Nobody's on a "high horse", and the irony here is that everyone wants the same thing....to be able to put up antennas and enjoy the hobby.
Your example of a HOA later forming in an older neighborhood is anecdotal, because 99% (including me) are given a document at closing, clearly spelling out what's expected. If HOA restrictions later come as a surprise to a new home owner, then a mistake was made, but I can't believe that this is pervasive.
We can all argue back and forth, calling each other stupid, puffing out our chests saying that "nobody's going to tell me what to do", etc....but the reality is that we'd all be fighting an expensive, uphill battle. If we're willing to just bend a little and engage our HOAs, I think we're going to have a lot more success.
Best,
Brad
K9MHZ
|
| |
|
RE: A HOA is a business entity.
|
|
|
by KC8VWM on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
There are even lots of studies on human honesty and integrity that conclude people tend to be morally ambivalent about adhering to commitments they explicitly made which they feel are unfair. I just don't agree with that mentality. It seems to me that honoring a commitment is a matter of personal integrity.
73,
Dave AB7E
-----
In Oklahoma, we have the following law.
"You may not open a soda bottle without the supervision of a licensed engineer."
So as a man of honesty and integrity, I choose to follow the letter of the law even though I don't necessarily feel this law is particularly fair.
Like you, I choose to adhere to my moral commitments.
Therefore I hire the services of a professional engineer to supervise me when engaging in soda drinking activities.
I agree we should honor our commitment as a matter of personal integrity.
Regards.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N8PHL on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I used to live in a complex and they had lots of things
that you could not do.
How ever the one thing that was not listed on the lease was no outside antennas.
I was however told that they were not allowed.
With that being said.
I did put up a outside antenna and when they said I had to remove it because it was going against the lease I said show my the copy of the lease that I signed with the listed and I would follow it.
They could not show it to me so I did not take down my antenna.
They tried to evict me but lost in court.
I moved out the last day of the lease and now live where there are no such rules against antennas.
Got to love Perry County OH.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Whether the buyer is fully aware of the HOA by-laws and the CC&Rs attached to the deed or not is an issue: A prudent buyer educates himself in these things, and finds out prior to even making an offer.
It's very, very (VERY) easy to do, and costs nothing.
A separate issue is whether one can find property to buy that is restriction-free. My contention is, YES, anyone can do this, and it doesn't matter where you live.
However, it may mean moving to a different neighborhood than the one originally targeted. If one cannot stand the inconvenience of an extra 5-10 minutes travel time to achieve this goal, he gets what he gets.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AI2IA on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
This has been a long and interesting thread. All of the posts so far have been thought provoking, and some of them have been very thought provoking.
If only other threads on eHam.net could do as well.
I thank all those so far who have given different and varying opinions and passed along information here and there.
As for those who are stuck with HOAs, I hope that eventually you may be able to get yourselves out of that situation, because as we all know deep done inside, the only real solution is to get out. As some have posted, it is not just a matter of ham radio, the HOA mentality is bad in so many other ways. It is bad especially for those on the boards. It is really not in keeping with the great American tradition of governing a free and independent people, even if for some it is the best they can do for the moment.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N4UM on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Dumb idea.
I recently moved into an HOA Nazi dominated ham radio koncentration kamp and I knew what I was getting into when I bought the place. I think people that move into these places and then bitch about it should sit down and shut up. I'm not bitching about HOAs but I AM bitching about hams buying places with HOAs and then bitching about it.
My place is in Florida where the attics are extremely hot and almost impossible to move around in because of all the trusses and cross bracing which are necessary because of the threat of hurricanes. My attic is also filled with lots of itchy fiberglass insulation, electrical wiring and is a real rat's nest of air conditioning ducts.
I have been able to install a bent 40 meter dipole in my attic and have made many successful contacts with it in the 6 weeks it has been operational. I don't work contests or jump into DX pileups. I use low power and operate the digital modes (mostly Olivia) and some CW.
Quite frankly I have no sympathy for hams that buy properties in HOA areas and then complain about the restrictions. It's like buying next to a pig farm and then complaining about the smell.
What ARE these people thinking? Perhaps I should have said "ARE these people thinking?"
Enough of this drivel already!
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WB6DGN on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"Quite frankly I have no sympathy for hams that buy properties in HOA areas and then complain about the restrictions. It's like buying next to a pig farm and then complaining about the smell."
EXACTLY! Or, moving next to an airport and then complaining about the low-flying airplanes! DUH! You expected, maybe, honeybees?
And, Dennis AI8P, No danger of anyone forming an HOA in this community. In over 8 years I have yet to find any two people who can get along long enough to form ANY kind of an organization! They'd MUCH rather you do something that they don't like so they have something to WHINE about!
Tom DGN
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K5END on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"Quite frankly I have no sympathy for hams that buy properties in HOA areas and then complain about the restrictions."
So, what about the people who became hams several years after having moved into such areas?
Does that mean you think they should not become hams?
Or should moving into these free zones (that supposedly exist somewhere in your abstract model) be part of the licensing process?
Maybe they could replace the Morse code requirement with a requirement to own property in an unrestricted area.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WB6DGN on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"So, what about the people who became hams several years after having moved into such areas?"
What about them? 'They' do as I and numerous other people in the same situation do; THEY MOVE (I didn't move because of ham radio, not necessary)! You evaluate your priorities. Then you make your choices accordingly. Life is not a static state of existence. Situations and circumstances are constantly changing around you. Every person needs to be able to evaluate and respond to changing circumstances. The days of hunkering down on the "family estate" for a lifetime are long gone, unless you are disgustingly wealthy. If anyone here can cite one single thing that "sitting tight" and whining has accomplished, I'd like to hear it. Things have changed for me. I'm now considering my next move. NOTHING lasts forever. Kind of exciting.
Tom DGN
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KC8VWM on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Quite frankly I have no sympathy for hams that buy properties in HOA areas and then complain about the restrictions. It's like buying next to a pig farm and then complaining about the smell.
What ARE these people thinking? Perhaps I should have said "ARE these people thinking?"
---------
Perhaps, for many it's more like they moved into an HOA community and years later, the pig farmer decided to move next door.
I know a fellow for example that got a ham radio license (sometimes many years later) and long after all such HOA agreement paperwork ink has was originally placed on the paper.
Seems the poor guy I know heard about and became interested in amateur radio, desired to get a license, studied and finally wrote the test, put up an antenna, got on the air and BAM... He was told to take that antenna down or else!
He told me he had no idea antenna's were not allowed where he was living, or he wouldn't have wasted his time in the first place.
I think he's currently seeking his worked all friends on Facebook award.
Perhaps, instead of suggesting "Anyone can become a ham" - "Hello" campaigns, "Talk to the Astronauts" offering promotional brochures etc., encouraging people etc... We should be upfront and telling those individuals that ham radio activities are often specifically restricted only to individuals who are fortunate enough not to live in any such HOA community before wasting any of their time.
I mean I would "like" to see more people involved but clearly this is a serious barrier for those individuals who are already living in HOA communities.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K5END on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"'They' do as I and numerous other people in the same situation do; THEY MOVE"
So, in other words, you run from and avoid the conflict rather than try to change something that is unfair.
That outlook works for you. Good for you. Enjoy your lifestyle as you see fit.
It does not work for me.
|
| |
|
What about new hams?
|
|
|
by W7SMJ on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I own a home with CC&R's that bans antennas and yes, I knew that before I purchased the property. For me Amateur Radio is a hobby, one of many and certainly not that high on my list of priorities. I'm not bitching about being restricted, but if there is any way I can exploit a loophole and better enjoy this hobby I'm all for it! I also appreciate any individual trying to offer an alternative.
That's me. What about some individual that bought a home long before (s)he even heard of Amateur Radio? Are you going to tell them they need to sell their house so they can try out Amateur Radio? Are you going to tell them due to their deed restriction they can't become a ham? Ridiculous!
I wish all of you that can't seem to stand articles or posts like this one would just spin the dial and move on, your opinion on the merits of the topic is irrelevant and helps no one.
73,
Scott
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KG4WXP on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
>>I don't give a crap that all you people with HOA's can't put up antennas. Is it so hard to buy a house where there are no restrictions?<<
Yep, if you dont want a 3 hour drive to work, or if you want a house that's not at least 40 years old, it is. Apparently you havent been house hunting in the Louisville, Ky area anytime recently.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KG4WXP on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
>>Using blackmail to strong-arm your way out of an agreement you signed in good faith is morally reprehensible and shows a significant lack of integrity.<<
For a corporation to be able to play government and create those restrictions in the first place is reprehensible and shows a significant lack of American Liberties.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KG4WXP on October 11, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
>>What about them? 'They' do as I and numerous other people in the same situation do; THEY MOVE<<
Oh, so what about the younger kids that get into ham radio and want to get into our 'dying hobby'? If their parents live in an HOA, are you going to tell a 9 year old kid to 'TAKE SOME DAMN RESPONSIBILITY! PACK UP, GET A JOB, AND GET A HOUSE!'
lol.
Chris
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KT1F on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I might have mentioned it before on eHam but it seems like hams should join forces with the "Right to Dry" Campaign.
http://www.laundrylist.org/index.php/advocacy/76-the-right-to-dry-campaign
These people are facing the same sort of bitter battle over being allowed to have an outdoor clothes line for drying clothes. I moved here from a country where almost every home has a clothes line of some type so I struggle to understand the problem. In a place with abundant sunshine it seems crazy to insist that people use other, probably polluting energy, to dry their clothes. Probably not everyone involved in that battle would accept big towers but they would surely accept a wire antenna.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N8QBY on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
There are a lot of efficient mobile antennas on the market today. One option could be to have a dedicated run of coax from your operating shack, to where you park your vehicle. Connecting and disconnecting would be a slight inconvenience, but you could still be on the air with a decent signal. Or, not feeling the love for people who choose to live with HOA restrictions, but another option still exists, depending on your priorities....move.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by W3WN on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Tony KB3TLC:
I understand your situation. I would strongly suggest that you contact a lawyer who is also a ham to review the existing rules you're referring to, if for no other reason than being prepared.
That way, should an objection to your antenna be brought up, you can be prepared to counter the argument. And while I don't condone blackmail, be it explicit or implicit, the implication of legal action would certain give some (but not all) pause... all because you can accurately state something on the lines of "Well, I went over the HOA rules with my attorney before doing this, and he determined that it appears that this rule doesn't apply because... [fill in as appropriate]"
OTOH, should it turn out the other way, you have time to pursue other courses of action to keep your antennas.
I don't know who to reccomend in DE. If you were here in PA, my lawyer would be a good person to contact, as he has had great success in fighting the good fight to get hams to keep their antennas up. If he couldn't help you, though, he might know who can...
Just a thought
73
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by W3WN on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Tony KB3TLC:
I understand your situation. I would strongly suggest that you contact a lawyer who is also a ham to review the existing rules you're referring to, if for no other reason than being prepared.
That way, should an objection to your antenna be brought up, you can be prepared to counter the argument. And while I don't condone blackmail, be it explicit or implicit, the implication of legal action would certain give some (but not all) pause... all because you can accurately state something on the lines of "Well, I went over the HOA rules with my attorney before doing this, and he determined that it appears that this rule doesn't apply because... [fill in as appropriate]"
OTOH, should it turn out the other way, you have time to pursue other courses of action to keep your antennas.
I don't know who to reccomend in DE. If you were here in PA, my lawyer would be a good person to contact, as he has had great success in fighting the good fight to get hams to keep their antennas up. If he couldn't help you, though, he might know who can...
Just a thought
73
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
K9CTB writes: ""Trending is going away from the socialist little communes with their fees and their "everybody in everybody else's business" stuff....There are plenty of real houses without the socialism available"
HOAs, CC&Rs and such aren't "socialism" or "socialist" at all. In fact, they're as CAPITALIST as can be!
"Socialism" is when the government owns or controls the means of production, resources, etc. Government-provided housing would be a form of socialism.
HOAs and CC&Rs are the result of "free-market capitalists" trying to make more money. HOA rules are private contracts freely entered into between private parties. The government only gets involved when someone tries to violate such a contract, or when such a contract contains a clause that is clearly unconstitutional.
For example, the no-antennas clauses often found in HOA rules are based on the 1970s-80s desire to get everyone to sign up and pay for for cable TV.
Many of the restrictions in the rules are based on the idea that if people are allowed to do different things with their homes, property values will go down, and that the right to protect the value of one's own PRIVATE property supersedes a neighbor's freedom. That's not "socialism" at all.
I'm no fan of socialism but please blame the right people.
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KG4WXP writes: "if you want a house that's not at least 40 years old"
What's wrong with a 40-50 year old house?
My first house was built in 1900. My second house was built in 1923 and the house I'm in now was built in 1950.
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I prefer older houses and probably will never buy a "new" one again in this lifetime.
I just helped my daughter move into her first leased home. She's very excited about it: It was built in 1926 in the Hollywood foothills, just off Melrose and within walking distance of Paramount Studios and many other great landmarks. She can look out her window and see the HOLLYWOOD sign on the hill just north of her.
It's a great place. There aren't any "new" places like this.
There aren't any restrictions nor HOA. ;-)
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
To WB2WIK:
I suspect the property values at your daughter's new place will appreciate faster and be less impacted by downturns than those of restricted properties.
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WD9FUM on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
My wife found our present QTH. The first thing she told me was "It has a tower."
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by NO6L on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The best course of action is, if you can avoid it, just refuse to move into an HOA community. If you have to drive an extra reasonable distance to partake in Amateur Radio, so be it. And, if something similar gets forced on you at a later time, don't just roll over and take it. Fight tooth and nail until they relent like Alec Zubarau, WB6X of Palmdale Ca did. You will have
help and yes, you can fight City Hall and win.
Don't let them grind you down.
Cheers
73
de NO6L
/end of line
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N0PWZ on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
It seems like there are at least two camps on this one. One side states that there are ways around the HOA's (this my preferred position). The other group says, "I've got mine. You signed away your right by buying in a covenant controlled addition. Tough!". I view this attitude as simplistic. In the same way that state and federal law overrides local covenants on DBS dishes, solar, wind and PV installations, so too will state and federal laws override antenna/ham restrictions. Other than a lack of political clout, why should amateur radio have any less ability to retroactively override HOA agreements? It's not like there aren't any recent precedents. The most recent "pry bar" is Homeland Security and EMCOMM legislation. Whatever works is fine by me.
I hate to give the naysayers indigestion, but the HOA lock on amateur matters is becoming more tenuous with time. Just as the antiquated code mandate eventually fell, so too will HOA ham restrictions. It may not be in my lifetime (I'm a geezer), but I tend to take the longer view on matters that are destined for the boneyard.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K6VFR on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Remember to keep in mind that some people actually buy their condo before they get their ham license. They just want to pursue their ham hobby, but face the HOA restrictions which sometimes are way stricter than they need to be. HFRF slants this dilemma to be way more clear cut than it really is; but then this is typical for anonymous people who make negative comments.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
N0PWZ: "In the same way that state and federal law overrides local covenants on DBS dishes, solar, wind and PV installations, so too will state and federal laws override antenna/ham restrictions. Other than a lack of political clout, why should amateur radio have any less ability to retroactively override HOA agreements?"
I'd have no problem with that. If the government decrees that someone didn't really have to sign their rights away and makes it retroactive, so be it. Governments are theoretically granted the authority to do such things by a majority of the people.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KG4WXP on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
>>HOAs and CC&Rs are the result of "free-market capitalists" trying to make more money. HOA rules are private contracts freely entered into between private parties. The government only gets involved when someone tries to violate such a contract, or when such a contract contains a clause that is clearly unconstitutional. <<
In other words it's a bunch of capitalists playing socialist government.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KG4WXP writes: "In other words it's a bunch of capitalists playing socialist government. "
Nope. HOAs are NOT "the government". They're more like a Board of Directors in a private company.
One BIG difference is that there are checks and balances in "the government", and a Constitution limiting governmental power. Your local government couldn't simply ban all clotheslines, for example, and if they did, you could take them to court over it.
But an HOA can ban clotheslines and there's no court of appeal except the HOA itself. Nor is there a constitution limiting their power.
The stock answer is always the same: "You agreed to abide by the rules when you moved here. If you don't like the rules, sell your home and move away."
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KG4WXP writes: "In other words it's a bunch of capitalists playing socialist government. "
Nope. HOAs are NOT "the government". They're more like a Board of Directors in a private company.
One BIG difference is that there are checks and balances in "the government", and a Constitution limiting governmental power. Your local government couldn't simply ban all clotheslines, for example, and if they did, you could take them to court over it.
But an HOA can ban clotheslines and there's no court of appeal except the HOA itself. Nor is there a constitution limiting their power.
The stock answer is always the same: "You agreed to abide by the rules when you moved here. If you don't like the rules, sell your home and move away."
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KT0DD on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
K9MHZ...
I'm sorry, but I see an auful lot of doughnut eating type officers in my day doing nothing but sitting in their cars rather than enforcing laws. Heck, I've just recently run a new stop sign that I'm not used to right in front of a highway patrol and sheriff twice this last week (something I'm not proud of and I am being extremely careful now) but they never even moved to pull me over as they should have.
Your argument still does not satisfy me. What good does it do to be a property owner if you dont have the say in what goes on there. Using your logic, then one can assume that we were lied to when we were taught that this is a "free" country, but rather a pseudo communist / capitalist country where he who has the gold is the only one who can make the rules.
HOA's violate the bill of rights where it says we were all given the inalienable right to life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness. We need a law on the books stating that a certain percentage of housing in a given county must be HOA free to actually give people a choice. There are law abiding good people who are forced to live in very substandard housing because they cannot afford to live in areas that are HOA controlled.
Our government has lived up to the T-shirt I saw that said I reject your reality and substitute my own. It happens whenever they use the term "priveledge" when it is actually a RIGHT.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB7E on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KT0DD,
Your own comment contains a weird and twisted mixture of pseudo-communist and free-action expression. You want to be able to do whatever you want to with your own property no matter where it is but you want the government to force a developer to manage his property in a manner not of his choice???
But yes, the U.S. is not a country where anyone is free to do as they choose, and you're being pretty silly to pretend that's some sort of revelation for you unless you skipped all your civics classes. No country, tribe, colony, society, etc comprising humans has ever allowed individuals to do whatever they want totally free of constraint imposed by the group. The only condition where that happens is called "anarchy" and only sociopaths call it home.
Besides, as several others have pointed out, HOAs have nothing to do with the government. HOAs are the result of the majority of folks living in a particular area deciding to limit what any particular individual can do that might affect the investment of the others. In fact, HOAs are the result of the government acknowledging the right of you and your neighbors to decide for yourselves how you want to manage your community ... which is why the government generally refuses to step in and override them.
The exception, of course, is when the government somehow decides that the greater good is served by limiting the reach of an HOA in a particular situation, such as if a version of PRB-1 with some teeth ever gets put into law.
Dave AB7E
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on October 12, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
CC&Rs were originally drafted to be segregationist, which is unconstitutional today, but was not in 1895 when they started.
Despite the fact they've changed over the decades, I have a very bad taste that lingers regarding how they started, and why they started.
I won't buy a property with restrictive covenants, ever, period.
I've lived from coast to coast, and there are "millions" of properties available that are restriction-free, everywhere. Having owned 15 homes now, and probably a few more in the future, these are the only ones I'd consider owning.
This has absolutely nothing to do with antennas, and everything to do with common decency.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KT0DD on October 13, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
This site is loaded with liberals...
Long live the Patriots of America!
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KF7CG on October 13, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Remember, that HOAs and CC&Rs are many times, though not always a function of a government bureaucracy. In many areas the basic CC&R package and HOA enabling bylaws are part of the presentation that wins zoning approval for subdividing a property, and that includes splitting out single lots undr certain sizes.
If the rules that the zoners can't pass but want enforced are not in the package then no approval. "This package needs work work, bring it back when the wording is correct." Of course the subdivider is only too willing to agree. He is going to sell, take his profit and leave.
KF7CG
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AA3NJ on October 13, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I really wanted to withdraw this little article after pressing the send button. Had there been a withdraw button, I probably would have pressed it. But, I am happy that reading your replies doesn’t cause me the pangs of embarrassment I anticipated.
I agree with those who say my idea is a low life approach. I don’t believe it is so bad as to be called reprehensible, and I do take exception to the suggestion that it is blackmail. After all, I am not proposing to defame anyone or take anyone’s money in exchange for withholding incriminating evidence. I am only proposing a business arrangement founded on loopholes in the law. This kind of economic arm-twisting is performed every day by ordinary people, and it is only a suggestion.
I would not, myself, try this approach for at least four reasons. First, the HOA will probably call your bluff. A little study will show that an intimidating solar panel array will cost nearly $20,000, whereas a moderate Yagi and tower costs in the 2 to 3 thousand dollar range. Second, you will loose any friends or goodwill you might have in your neighborhood. Third, your HOA will likely start looking at your property much more closely for covenant violations. Fourth, publicity of this type of action can kill any hope we have of getting legal relief in the form of bills currently in the Senate and House (i.e., Bill 1755, The Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Enhancement Act of 2009, and HR 2160).
By the way, HOA’s are above some of the laws of surrounding counties and cities, and I wouldn’t blame anyone for trying to get their rules changed. HOA’s trump local laws, but not national laws, and do appear to circumvent the constitution in some cases. State and local officials put up with HOA’s because they reduce the burden placed on government to uphold laws within the area of the HOA. HOA’s can take you to court if you violate the CCR’s. Now, does that make you reprehensible if you attempt to obtain the HOA approval for your antenna, or better yet, if you attempt to alter the by-laws and CCR’s by using logic? I don’t think so.
Now for another idea. Design your solar array so that it can raise and lower in a range of 20 to 50 feet (ideal to get closer to the source of solar power). It must rotate 360 degrees to track the source of solar power. An az-el rotor would be beneficial, but not necessary. The array must be tapered slightly, but don’t ask me for the technical justification.
Rob,
AA3NJ
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 13, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"It must rotate 360 degrees to track the source of solar power."
No it doesn't. Not in CONUS, anyway.
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AA3NJ on October 13, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Well, I hope you arn't on the HOA architectural review board!
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K5END on October 13, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
quote, "It must rotate 360 degrees to track the source of solar power."
Only if your subdivision is North of the Arctic Circle or South of the Anarctic Circle.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 13, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KT0DD: "If I'm the one paying the MORTGAGE and PROPERTY TAXES, then no one else should have the right to tell me what I can do on my property as long as it doesn't violate any city, county, state or federal laws & ordinances."
What if you signed a contract to do something or not do something with your property?
KT0DD: "The emergence of HOA's could have been made unnecessary if local law enforcment agencies hadn't become apathetic, and had enforced ordinances that were already in place."
Not completely true. Here's why:
There's a Constitutional limit to what government can control. For example, zoning and other ordinances can determine setbacks, height limits and architectural guidelines, but things like saying you have to use a certain brand and color of paint and that your house must always look exactly like your neighbor's is simply beyond their authority.
But in an HOA situation, a buyer agrees to follow whatever rules the HOA sets, far beyond Constitutional limits. It's a private contract, not a government rule.
However, you're right about the apathy, though it's not law enforcement as much as legislation.
In many places there are few ordinances and zoning rules in place, and what does exist is pretty basic.
To avoid all the cost, work and headaches of enacting appropriate rules, and then enforcing them, and raising the taxes to pay for it all, it's become common for those places to let the HOAs do the job.
That way, taxes stay low and the politicians can say they're for "small government".
KT0DD: "What good does it do to be a property owner if you dont have the say in what goes on there."
Tax benefits, appreciation of investment, ability to do things renters can't. And an owner in an HOA community does have a say. They just don't have veto power.
KT0DD: "Using your logic, then one can assume that we were lied to when we were taught that this is a "free" country, but rather a pseudo communist / capitalist country where he who has the gold is the only one who can make the rules."
What makes it a free country when it comes to housing is that you can choose to not live in a certain place. In a truly authoritarian state, the government assigns you a living place and that's where you have to live.
KT0DD: "HOA's violate the bill of rights where it says we were all given the inalienable right to life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness."
People who live in HOA communities have the right to sell and move away. That's liberty and the pursuit of happiness right there.
KT0DD: "We need a law on the books stating that a certain percentage of housing in a given county must be HOA free to actually give people a choice."
I'll bet that in every county in the USA there is a substantial percentage of housing that is HOA free.
Trouble is, those unrestricted homes may not be for sale when you want to buy. Or they may be too expensive or the wrong kind for what you want.
How exactly, would we force developers to build non-HOA houses?
KT0DD: "There are law abiding good people who are forced to live in very substandard housing because they cannot afford to live in areas that are HOA controlled."
I'm not sure what you're saying there. At least where I live, the HOA places are less expensive than equivalent unrestricted homes.
The developers like HOAs, CC&Rs and all the restrictions for a simple reason: They keep the property essentially 'like new' until the last unit is sold. And hopefully long after. That's their interest.
KT0DD: "This site is loaded with liberals...
Long live the Patriots of America!"
It's not "liberals" who came up with HOAs and CC&Rs. It's not "liberals" who won't enact and enforce zoning codes and other ordinances.
btw, in Arizona there is a law that any new development over a certain size *must* have an HOA. Last I looked, AZ wasn't exactly a blue state.
Think about *why* all those sorts of places are so popular.
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2WJW on October 14, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I also have to agree with HFRF, you KNOW what you are getting into when you sign. I live in an area with HOA restrictions as well, I scoped the area before I purchased...nice attic for VHF and even HF antennas and lots of trees in the backyard for a hidden longwire, ham radio is doing very well with all the restrictions.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KB6QXM on October 14, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I simply do not get it. Why are all of these postings around HOA restrictions. blah blah blah.
It seems pretty simple to me. If you buy a house in a HOA restricted area, then one of three options.
1) Mobile-You will not be a big Gun, but at least you can make some contacts. Use a high Q antenna such as a Texas Bugcatcher and put a mobile 600 watt amp in the trunk.
2) Research finding another house without an HOA, such as a rural community that allows towers and antennas and move to this community.
3) Find another hobby.
Those who fail to plan, plan to fail. Simple as that.
Stop whining, either do one of the three things besides hiring attorneys. If you knew up front and you still bought and you were a ham, it is your own fault.
If you were not a ham and became one after the purchase of the house, then option #2 or #3 is for you.
You signed a legal document when you purchased the HOA controlled house....get over it. It is a legal and binding contract.(like marriage). That is why lawyers could be involved in either situation.
It amazes me how much time is involved in this subject.
73
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by W7ETA on October 14, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
A post about what someone else could do.
This might have been meaningful if it was about the OP's experience.
My reaction is that this thread is just silly-nonsense.
Sorta like proclaiming that the HOA will allow one to install a 75 foot tower if you eat a head of garlic and then get into their faces arguing with you nasty breath.
73
Bob
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K5END on October 14, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
..."proclaiming that the HOA will allow one to install a 75 foot tower if you eat a head of garlic and then get into their faces arguing with you nasty breath."
Hey, not a bad idea!! But shouldn't it be during a full Moon?
|
| |
|
Werewolves of Ham Radio
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 15, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
K5END: "But shouldn't it be during a full Moon?"
I saw a radio amateur drinking a Pina Colada at Trader Vic's
His hair was perfect.
Aaaah-WHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
(missing Warren Zevon)
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K4JRB on October 15, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
An interesting idea. Remember that most housing built in the past 25 years REQUIRES CC&R's and a HOA.
The Banks tell developers no CC&R's No funding. The blackmail has already occured.
To get away from HOA's you have to find an older subdivision (no mean task) or move to a farm in the country.
Dave K4JRB
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KB6QXM on October 15, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
New development in the last 25 years requires HOA or CC&R. Can we say Custom home? Can we say rural? If you choose to live in a development or a house next to another house where the density of homes are so close that you pass the grey poupon.
No.....find some land, build a modest or maybe a not so modest house or find a rural peice of property will an already existing structure and bring your towers with you.
Simple as that!
Those who fail to plan, plan to fail.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KF7CG on October 16, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Can we say 30+ miles one way to work and a pretty much constant 60 minute drive time.
Can we say 5+ acres to avoid the zoning mandated developer involvement in sub-dividing property.
Cna we say poor phone service wired and cell, poor schools, no cable (possibly a good thing), only dialup or satellite internet?
Lots of good choices in former home area of middle Ohio.
KF7CG
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K5END on October 16, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Sure, we can say that.
In fact, we can even say "daily commute round trip from suburb to downtown already exceeds three hours."
But, can we say, "we need to live in an area with a good economy and job market?"
And, we can say, "real estate cost for plots of 5 or more acres in outlying areas is ridiculously overpriced?"
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AA3NJ on October 16, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Ok! I'm gonna try it. If this post stays up for a while, you can read about the result. But, first I'll just propose the antenna - not the solar array. If that doesn't work, we'll see how bargaining works.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KK0DJ on October 18, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Folks... let's work together as the league has been doing for years. We have legal counsel and a plethora of cases won. I realize not all have been won, but we have a good track record. Providing the HOA with the legal information about what Amateur Radio is and educating them about federal law can be enough for a ham to operate in areas with restrictions. Let's not beat up on each other please. We need to be unified and work together to help folks understand the benefit of amateur radio. Please, no response required. 73 all //dj
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N4CDB on October 19, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
What about those that bought their homes before getting involved in the hobby? Should they be forced to move to enjoy the airwaves?
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K4RAF on October 19, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I hate to say this but I agree with "hfrf" on this. You sign the contract, then you wish to break the contract because of your inner child. Decisions & signatures have consequences... Deal with it...
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on October 20, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"What about those that bought their homes before getting involved in the hobby? Should they be forced to move to enjoy the airwaves?"
Well, that depends on how they define "enjoy the airwaves".
If I buy a small house on a small lot and then decide I want to have horses for a hobby, maybe I'll have to move.
OTOH if all I want is a house cat, maybe it shouldn't be a problem.
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K9DY on October 23, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I challenge anyone to find a new home (or condo)in any recent addition that does not have restrictions. You have two choices if you want a reasonable DX antenna. Either buy land in the country and build, or find an older home in an addition established many years ago. Don't even consider a condo.
These antenna restrictions exist to "preserve home values". This is a BOGUS CLAIM. I built a new home in a new subdivision in 1974, before the age of HOAs. It was the first house built in my section (with a 60 foot tower, tri-bander, 6 meter and 2 meter beams). The entire area built up around me, with dozens of houses within sight of my tower. I never ONCE had a complaint about appearance, interference, or deflating property values. It also did not discourage people from building, or hamper owner home sales.
I now live in a restricted home (with stealth antennas), reasons for which I won't go into here. But I will never again live under antenna restrictions. We can all refuse to buy in these areas, but I don't think there are enough of us to make developers change anything.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WA2GO on October 23, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
>> >>"It must rotate 360 degrees to track the source of solar power."
>>No it doesn't. Not in CONUS, anyway.
Well, it must in summer in Barrow, which is part of the CONUS. Not that you'll find any HOA's there though. ;-)
W2ID/KL7
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KLEMM on October 24, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I know this HOA stuff sounds so self inflicting to many who either live in states that don't have a huge population gain. Or for rural folks who don't have to live near people. But for most of us in the sunbelt who want to live in a decent neighborhood with good schools, finding a nice home without an HOA is near impossible.
I used to live on Long Island and I raised my first 3 in a great neiborhood with no HOA, yea we had
the town ordances but nothing like these HOAs that have in realaty become big GOVERNMENT with loby groups.
I lived in 2 different worlds and like most in a HOA being a HAM is rough. I am retired but am still raising a child so any bit of info about putting up a stealth is needed.And thank you to everyone who helps people like me.
To you sour pus's who say well you should'nt live in an HOA and are tiered of reading about it well if you keep reading these posts with disgust then maybe your time will be best served by giving us some new idea's and helping us who are were we are for what ever the reason.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N8QBY on October 27, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I want the HOA regulators to change their rules because I decided to become a ham operator. Pleasssssssse. It is just a hobby, not life itself. With a little imagination, you can get on the air. Want to put up big towers, antennas and the like.....move. Other than for entertainment purposes, these HOA articles are only for the saggy diapered.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by W1ITT on October 27, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
As a radio amateur, I sympathize with your plight. As Chairman of my town's Planning Board, I shudder when I see another out-house amateur lawyer (to use the polite term) with another half baked scheme to circumvent some regulation or agreement. In the majority of cases, the governing body, whether it be a municipality or homeowners association will prevail, unless someone has been especially deficient in writing the ordinance or homeowner's agreement. If nothing else, the governing body has more money with which to engage lawyers, some of which was originally yours!
Living out in the sticks as I do has advantages and disadvantages. But you pay your money and make your choices. It's one thing to fight a PRB-1 situation when the municipality has been hard headed, and I'm right with you on that. But, having signed a homeowner's agreement, it's best to comply with it or sell the place and move. You'll only end up enriching the lawyers.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WA4XAY on October 27, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
HA !!!!! Finally the voice of reason, Well said Norman.
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by W2BSA on October 28, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I have to say to HFRF and others is the answer to your question is it depends. There are some places that it is close to impossible to find a home that doesn't have some HOA attached to it. Most of those are around major urban areas. But, if you don't mind a long haul commute you might be able to find something. As far as I am concerned the HOA garbage should be tossed out the window. Most of the time you have to deal with NAZI's who want to stick their nose in everybody's business.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by WA4YBC on October 29, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I have read the comments on this article about HOA Restrictive Covenants, and how if you don't like the antenna restrictions, you should just sell your house and move. This is sad.
If the only way a person can become a ham in this country is sell their house and move, then our hobby is dead.
If you think we are going attract people into ham radio by requiring them to pass an FCC test, and then sell their home, then our hobby is dead.
That is nuts.
We need some reasonable ability to put a reasonable antenna.
I tried to put up a 24 foot vertical that lays down on my upstairs deck when not in use, and stands up when needed.
My HOA just denied me a variance to stand up my 24 foot aluminum pole at night.
You can't buy a house built in the last 20 years without antenna restrictions.
People that say you have a choice must live on another planet, or in a corn field.
HR 2160 sounds good, but appears to be fading away in Committee.
The ARRL has not done a very good job in protecting our right to put an antenna.
If we can't even stand up a 24 foot aluminum pole at night, I see no hope for ham radio.
If the only way to be a ham today is to sell your house and move, guess in the near future, the only ham clubs will be in old age homes.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AK4RL on October 29, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I have been a radio amateur for over 30 years and have never seen the need for a tower. I would object to my neighbor putting up a tower. Those that try to claim they need a tower to be able to help out in case of an emergency are just full of it and you know what I am refering to. On VHV/UHF your small easily hidable quarter or 5/8 wave antenna can you into a repeater that is close enough for your emergency. On HF, a dipole wire antenna can get you around the world. A "flag pole" vertical works great too. I have a Carolina Windom for 75/80 meters and tunable for other bands and a vertical. Never had a problem getting out. Of course I do not screw up the bands screaming for DX during contest either. Why don't the complainers just admit they want to work DX with a beam a do not care what their towers look like to others.
I am sure many will bitch about this post, but if the shoe fits, wear it.
Ray AK4RL
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KC8RWR on October 30, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I'm lucky. There are plenty of houses in my area under no HOA restrictions. When we bought our current house I did make sure there were no restrictions before I bought.
I have friends in the Denver CO area. They tell me houses with no HOA are pretty much nonexistent within an hour of the city, where all the jobs are. They are not Hams currently but I'm pretty sure someone in the Denver area is! If they some day decide to get their licenses should they be required to move back to the midwest just to get beyond the ducky?
I think it was a great point AK4RL made that we don't actually need big towers with huge beams. However, I suspect many HOAs would not allow even the humble antennas he recommends. Sure, you can hide them but then there is always the chance of someone noticing. Once some neighborhood busy body finds a hidden antenna imagine how hard that jerk is going to be looking for the next one! And should a person have to be sneaky on their own property anyway?
Honestly beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I really don't see the ugly in most antenna installations anyway, including many of the big ones. I really think the anti-antenna BS has more to do with people disliking anything which is different from their narrow little norms than any objective sense of neighborhood beauty. Ham antennas remind people of TV antennas. TV antennas are relics of a time before houseloads of throwaway flatscreen TVs bought on high interest credit cards fed with expensive monthly cable. This makes it offensive to the one hive mind so many today seem to be sharing. At least that's my theory on that.
Now, back to being sneaky... I agree blackmailing your neighbors into allowing your antenna could be a bad idea. However, if you do install the solar cells (just pretend your being trendy and it will be ok) I suspect that if you put your wire antennas up at the same time, or any home made antennas which aren't obviously antennas to the uninformed you could pretend they are part of the solar panels.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N6TZ on October 30, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
A half-baked idea for sure. I am sypathetic with our Ham antenna plight, but get a grip.
If I were running the HOA, I would reply "go ahead and put up the Solar panels". We don't compromise !
No organization is going to bargain with a deal like that, or word would get around and you would have horses on the front lawns.
Hal, N6TZ
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N0PWZ on October 30, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
This conversation is pretty funny. I have to point out that we live where horses are allowed on the front lawn, yet we have restrictions limiting antennas, and transmitters for that matter. Go figure.
Obviously, one size does not fit all, which is why some of the contributors to this thread are a bit out of their depth. This subject is more complex than some give it credit.
As to bribes, I'm all for it! The benefits of agrarian civic responsibility are often diluted by urban denizens that move to the sticks. It's hard on them. Their normal urban situational awareness no longer applies, so they become moody and go off their feed.
You don't have to blackmail 'em. Just act like a neighbor. Not an urban neighbor, an agrarian neighbor. They are not the same.
Plow the snow out of their driveway if they can't. If they're sick and need to get to the doctor, take 'em. Take over some brownies, and a few meals if they're under the weather. For farm kids, that have grown up, this is not a problem as it's just the proper method of conducting your life. For city folk, it can be learned, though it will go against their grain initially.
Eventually, these Phillistines will decide that it will cost them more by pissing off a valuable asset, than they could possibly gain by ratting you out to the Architectural Committee if they spot a wire.
No, blackmail is out. Bribes are in.
I got a kick out of the most colorful poster who didn't have a problem violating C&R's (flagpole antennas). He just didn't want towers.
?!?!?!
Yes, I am full of "it", and I do know what "it" is. It just doesn't have any bearing on this thread. :-)
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by AB4D on October 31, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I agree with most of the comments here. It would be absurd to even suggest to an HOA that you better approve my antenna OR else.
I can't understand why so many believe that you must have a tower and a yagi to participate in amateur radio. Although they are nice, they are not something that you must have to get on the air and have fun.
I lived in an HOA controlled community for five years and was able to get on HF and work DX without any issues.
The key is to be creative when assembling a stealth antennna system. I had dipoles (Cushcraft D3 and D3W), a vertical for VHF/UHF (comet CX-333), and a small 4 element 2 meter beam, all contained in my attic. I even had a very thin almost invisible sloping wire loop (175 feet of 26 ga copperweld) outside coupled to an SGC tuner that was mounted in the attic.
For grounding I used a counterpoise with a TEN TEC counterpoise tuner. I never had a complaint of any RFI.
73
|
| |
|
RE: A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by N2EY on November 1, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WA4YBC writes: "If the only way a person can become a ham in this country is sell their house and move, then our hobby is dead."
That's true. But it's not the only way.
The reason some folks say "pack up and move" is because, in many cases, the HOA/CC&Rs have you over a barrel legally.
And there's a bigger issue (see below)
"We need some reasonable ability to put a reasonable antenna."
That's the key. The problem is defining "reasonable". To some people, the very idea of any antenna is unreasonable. To others, a 70 foot tower on a quarter-acre lot with no trees is "reasonable".
"I tried to put up a 24 foot vertical that lays down on my upstairs deck when not in use, and stands up when needed.
My HOA just denied me a variance to stand up my 24 foot aluminum pole at night."
That's unreasonable, I think.
To me it's a bigger issue, in that the HOA is so controlling and so unreasonable that you can't put up the antenna at night and take it down the rest of the time. That's why I would think about moving - because if they're that unreasonable, what else will you have to deal with?
"You can't buy a house built in the last 20 years without antenna restrictions."
Yes, you can. But you may have to look a lot harder, pay more, and go through serious paperwork.
There's also the issue of why so many hams won't consider an older home.
"People that say you have a choice must live on another planet, or in a corn field."
I live in a suburb of Philadelphia, in a development built in the early 1950s. No antenna restrictions. But the lot is too small for a tower.
"HR 2160 sounds good, but appears to be fading away in Committee."
Like many bills. Have you written your Congresscritters about it?
"The ARRL has not done a very good job in protecting our right to put an antenna."
I disagree. What would you have them do? I mean, seriously, what should ARRL do that they aren't doing?
Remember that HOA rules, CC&Rs and other restrictions are PRIVATE CONTRACTS. When you bought the place, you signed the papers saying you'd do X, Y and Z, and not do A, B and C. What can ARRL, or any third party, do to break a provision of a signed legal contract?
"If we can't even stand up a 24 foot aluminum pole at night, I see no hope for ham radio."
That's your HOA. Not everyone has the same situation. And that's the big difference: the rules are not the same everywhere.
"If the only way to be a ham today is to sell your house and move, guess in the near future, the only ham clubs will be in old age homes."
I think the real problems are two:
First, a lot of folks nowadays buy the house first, then become a ham, and discover all the things they can't do.
Second, in some places the restricted properties are very numerous, newer and less expensive than unrestricted ones. So people gravitate to them, and don't consider other options.
But there is hope. Organizations are beginning to appear that oppose the draconian HOA rules. Some are centered on a single issue, such as clotheslines, others are more general. But they are out there, and growing.
The bigger issue is this: Why are such draconian rules so popular? Why are they included in so many new properties, and enforced so rigidly?
What is it that people are afraid of?
73 de Jim, N2EY
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by K2ID on November 2, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
My HOA said I could do as I wanted as long as the antenna was not visible from the street and no one complained in writing with a valid signature. With so many homeowners in violation of one regulation or the other, no one points any fingers at other people.
I have been running an 80 meter long wire since I became a ham three years ago and run 800 watts when needed without anyone even aware that I am a ham or any mention of RFI by my neighbor.
I plan on moving into another CC&R development in another state. I do not let my hobbies control my major life decisions. The new place only says that you cannot have visible antennas so I am free to hide an antenna in a tree or elsewhere.
|
| |
|
A New Twist Around HOA Restrictions:
|
|
|
by KF5DAS on November 2, 2009
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Good luck on your project,but i you move into an HOA don't fight the system those people put have.You as a ham radio operator should not have moved in,and if you do not wear the pants in your family to bad for you.
again GOOD LUCK
mike
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to discussions on this article.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Other How To Articles
Measuring a Solid-State PA’s Zs
How to Help in an Emergency...Tools
6-Meter Square Copper Dipole
|
